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A Tale of Two Media:Tragedy and Images
For me, the images down here will be the barges that chugged out of Battery Park carrying corpses bound for vast New Jersey morgues, the smoke and smell and noise, the gaunt and hollow-eyed looks of the cops and firemen digging desperately for their buddies with their bare hands, the relatives on their knees praying all over the place, the video of the couple jumping off one of the towers holding hands, crushed police cars and fire trucks, many with bodies inside, the distant figure on the water everybody said was the U.S.S. George Washington, an aircraft carrier sent to protect New York harbor, and the soldiers with machine guns that are guarding major roadways and airports.
Big stories like this now are covered two ways -- online and off. The former draws millions to websites like CNN's and USA Today's, and new kind of sites like this one. Bloggers and others put up sites so that people could describe what was happening in their own words. People in apartment complexes and news sites posted accounts, and looked for relatives and housing.
As interesting as the Net is -- some of the best and most graphic video of the tragedy was popping up all over the Web -- and as idiosyncratic, the dominant medium when stuff like this happens is still TV, by a wide margin. Hour by hour, TV culls and culls until it finds a handful of quickly familiar images burned into our national and global consciousness. In our time, somebody has a videocam aimed at everything all the time, and within minutes the pictures show up everywhere, on television and the Net. Almost nothing is our culture goes unrecorded or unobserved any longer. The immediacy was as astonishing as the images were unbelievable.
By nightfall, CNN, MSNBC and the networks were moving away from the dramatic video and the indescribable scenes of wreckage and carnage and calling in the policy wonks and propellerheads who hide out in Washington caves until something like this happens. The focal point of all the airtime then shifted from the devastation in New York to the parsing and analyzing of the political, governmental and intelligence communities. For future reference, that may be a good time to turn off the tube and get online, the medium of individual stories, feelings and experiences.
When things like this happen, TV, much more than the Net or the Web, reveals whether leaders rise or fall to the occasion. Mayor Guiliani of New York clearly rose to the tragedy. President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day. Guiliani got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue. Bush got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter. At least that was the image that TV brought of us of these two very different leaders.
If you love New York, your heart will break when the smoke clears. Something about the city is busted for good, no matter what the mayor says. The damage is not describable, and surely hasn't been captured on TV. There are dead firemen, cops and office workers all over the rubble, everybody is saying, and the dust is so thick even the cadaver dogs are getting sick. Five techs with thermal imaging probes were retreating uptown, their sensitive equipment almost useless in the mud (caused by water poured on the still-burning fires) and smoke and dirt.
The buzz from the cops and reporters standing around is that the death toll will be horrible -- between two and three thousand -- but nowhere near the much higher figures feared yesterday. It seems that many people did get out, calling wives and cops from their cell phones as they went, as did some of the doomed passengers on the hijacked planes. (And a number of the people buried under the towers are still calling for help on their cells. Others got calls from spouses and friends telling them to get out.)
Across the street, a group of structural engineers were reassuring reporters that the towers collapsed of their own structural weakness, the steel melting from the fires, the buildings designed to collapse inward -- rather than fall down -- to save lives.
With their usual hubris, reporters and politicians were promising us that everything was going to change. But if the attacks demonstrate nothing else, it is the folly of that kind of thinking. Terrorists change too, and for all the high-tech equipment pouring into Manhattan, sometimes there isn't a thing we can do to stop them.
The Middle East Wire is very interesting read. I've especially enjoyed their Commentary and Interviews. For example, here is one very good article...
Jordanian Perspective about Attacks on America
Middle East News Online
By Edna Yaghi for Middle East News Online
Posted Wednesday September 12, 2001 - 06:00:52 PM EDT
While Israeli bulldozers continue to destroy Palestinian homes in the Beit Hanina district of Arab East Jerusalem and while 2 Palestinians in Nablus were killed and 20 injured as Israeli tanks shelled a refugee camp in the West Bank city of Jenin, Tuesday, September 11, 2 hijacked planes cut through the twin towers of the World Trade Center in New York City and a third plane dove done into the Pentagon in Washington, D.C.
These attacks, the worst ever on the U.S. mainland in modern history, struck at the heart of the American people and paralyzed the entire nation.
Thousands of innocent people may have lost their lives in a most tragic way. Surely, no peace loving person can condone the killing of civilian people regardless of what race, nationality or creed they possess.
Yet, America's blind and unconditional support for Israeli atrocities and crimes against the Palestinian people, plus the ongoing American assault against the Iraqis was bound to boomerang sooner or later. It is, after all, American made weapons that demolish, bomb, cut down and shoot Palestinians in the Occupied Territories. American planes are the ones that also randomly bomb Iraqi civilian targets.
One people are no more human than any other. As Americans grieve for the loss of their loved ones, so do Palestinians grieve for the senseless deaths of their people and the same goes for the Iraqis as well.
For nearly a year, the Palestinian people have been under Israeli siege. Every day Palestinians die in their homes, going to school, going to work, trying to get through an Israeli checkpoint or on the streets where they are open targets for Israeli tanks and snipers.
Every day Iraqi babies die because of the sanctions. Every month the death toll of Iraqi children surpasses 5,000. And George Jr. has taken over the job of bombarding Iraqis by air to make sure that their misery continues.
For the first time in a long time, the American people experienced how it feels to be attacked. People ran in desperate fear through the streets of New York City. Some hid behind cars. Others could not escape death.
America will never be the same again. The attacks on the WTC and the Pentagon have proved that the greatest and only super power in the world is not invincible. No mater who is responsible for the attacks on America and not matter how viciously the Americans choose to retaliate, American foreign policy is what brought this all on. Perhaps this is the beginning of the decline of the great American Empire.
All good and bad things eventually come to an end. Americans should become aware of just how detrimental their foreign policy is and for a change, stand on the side of justice instead of supporting injustice all over the world.
When we go to prosecute a murder, we look
for intent. I find it funny that very
little media has given us a detailed
background of the history and possible
motivations of the terrorists. This was
obviously not a spur-of-the-moment thing.
It took determination, planning, willing
to give up one's life. I would like to see
less talk of War and more of Why.
In short, I've listened to CSPAN all day
today and yesterday. Lots of talk of
war, getting retribution, but no analysis
of what part we have played in this story.
Best,
Clark
WB Grace et al. provided at least about 200,000 pounds of asbestos (~100 tons) for use in the WTC
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I honestly don't think they were attacking the state of NY. They were attacking the federal government, and purhaps capitalism. That's why they hit the WTC and hit the pentagon (althought there's reports they were aiming at the whitehouse).
The only thing I wonder about is what the passengers on the planes that hit the WTC were thinking. Why didn't they try to overthrow their captors like the passengers on the Pennsylvania flight? Did they have time to react? I can't imagine the terror they must have felt when they saw themselves heading towards the WTC...
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Not to be distastefull, but the bigest towers in the world are in malaysia. The Petronas Twin Towers (well known from the movie 'Entrapment' with sean connery and catherine zeta-jones). At 88 floors and 452 meters.
One & Two World trade measured in at 417 and 415 meters and 110 stories.
The Sears tower (443 meters, 110 stories) in chicago and the Jin Mao Building in Shanghai (420 meters, 88 stories) are also taller then the WTC's.
Anyways, non of it matters anyways.. just nit-picking.
my god man.
what a time to harp about how glad you are that they didn't crash into the empire state building.
do you realize how many people are dead?!?!
i have nothing but sympathy for the people affected and for your poor ignorant self.
you should be ashamed
Speaking of online media (in another sense) - I've heard reports in the past that claimed that Bin Laden steganographically hid data inside of images and postings on public message boards to communicate.
I was wondering how feasible it would be to create filters for Apache and/or IIS which would strip images of potential steganographic information. For instance, GIF images could be converted to JPG's and then back to GIF's before being served - this would probably eliminate hiding data in the LSB. (Obviously you'd have to do some caching) You could do similar things to other media, like WAV and MP3 files.
How hard is this? Could it be used to prevent use of public servers as repositories for steganographic media? Would it work? Would it be used widely enough to be effective?
The temptation is to bomb whoever did this back into the stone age. If we return senseless evil for senseless evil, we will sow a whirlwind for our grandchildren to reap. Let us respond deliberately, and in such a way that not one innocent person is harmed.
Let us respond by examining ourselves and our policies, but not by restricting our freedoms, or requesting that anyone's liberty be restricted. We need to light a candle for those who mourn, and for those lost. We must become a beacon of sanity, hope, and justice. Justice will be done, but let it not be done with an even greater measure of injustice.
Like most of us, I sometimes wonder if Katz's articles shouldn't just be modded "0, Troll" and ignored. The statement that George Bush "fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day" is rather disingenuous and short-sighted. Bush was evacuated by the Secret Service, doing exactly what they're trained to: get the President out of harm's way and into facilities where he can receive C4I (command, control, communications, computer, and intelligence) data and coordinate a response.
I live less than ten miles from Offutt Air Force Base here in Nebraska. None of us were surprised when it was announced that Mr. Bush was brought here after releasing his taped announcement at Barksdale AFB; the headquarters for US Strategic Command is here. Data from satellites, human intelligence assets, and news media could be easily collated and presented to the President by the staff in the "rabbit hole," the STRATCOM underground command post.
President Bush wasn't hiding or fleeing. He was doing his job: managing the country's business in the best possible manner. Just because the mayor of a city was brave and/or foolish enough to endanger his own life doesn't mean the President of a nation has that luxury. Losing so many thousands of individuals is terrible enough; having to attempt to manage that response and simultaneously transition power to a new President because the last one got himself killed is infinitely more so.
I didn't vote for President Bush, nor do I agree with all (or even a majority) of his other decisions. Nonetheless, to feel the need to criticize the man for doing his job is the mark of a small man indeed.
They that would sacrifice their
I don't appreciate you trashing our President in your comments concerning New York. Yes, the Mayor did a wonderful thing by going down there and helping, but the President was in danger, Air Force One was in danger, and for you to portray him as a coward and a man who "got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter" is just unpatriotic. Jon Katz you have truly offended me, and I'm sure many others.
JonKat's article really drives home something that had been hovering around my mind while I dove deeper into the web and farther and farther away from the TV.
They say that Vietnam was the TV war. The event so saturated by the media that interpreted it that the event itself was changed. The Gulf War might be considered the highest incarnation of event Television -- characterized by just the elements JK mentions. Hyper focused images extracting as much pathos as possible from the event. Tight messages. Repetition. Analysis. Hyperbole without connection.
It seems that perhaps september 11th is the first Interactive war. The impact of cell phones accross the event is astounding. The role of Internet as events unfolded is equally impacting. The tenor of coverage provided by the Net has been throughally, radically, different from the TV coverage.
As much as things will change because of this event, I am struck when considering how this event shows how much already has changed
My God, Katz, is this you? This is a well-done article, I think. You made good sense, you made good points, you even sounded reasonable. I guess something has changed.
My Greasemonkey scripts for Digg &
we've seen this happen many times in past. Extra security measures right after a crisis which begin to wane out soon. This had happened in India too.. when pakistani terrorists had hijacked a indian airlines flight and took it to afghanistan, there was unprecedented security at airports. but this soon waned out. This clearly is a much bigger tragedy but i'm afraid the reaction will be the same.
we should seriously consider having armed air marshells on every fligt .. armed with maybe not regular guns but something which'll not harm an aircraft if fired.
People should give up some of their convinences for the safety of everyone. Together we can prevent this from happening again.
Outside of this, however, I think a small body count is going to be unreasonable. The estimates today (5,000) seem correct. 20,000, as some places were saying, is far too many. I knew a number of people who got out, and 20,000 would be close to half the building's capacity. Unfortunately, "body count" is a vague term. Many bodies have been incinerated, and there have been more body parts found than actual bodies (gruesomely enough).
I think the worse thing is driving on the NJ Turnpike, looking up at the skyline, and NOT making the same comment everyone else made (that there's a hole in the skyline). That there's still smoke is what scares me. A manmade disaster still billowing smoke 2.5 days later. And a slightly acrid smell, even from here. It's amazingly close to home.
It may have appeared that he was shirking away, but from what I understand is that when he first heard the in Florida he requested to be flown to NY to be there directly and immediately. The secret service had a clear understanding that they had to first protect him from any and all danger and flew him to the nearest secure area (Louisiana). From there the secret service took him to an even more secure area (SAC in Nebraska). Finally letting him fly to DC once things were secured. There's just no pleasing people these days, if he would have flown directly to NY, you'd probably have called him a fool and putting the leader of the US in undue jeopardy.
The only thing I wish I had seen more of was a bit more fire in his eyes, an almost WWF Smackdown, we're going to get you look for lack of better words; but of course that would probably not be appropriate for the situation (actually whoever did this would probably just enjoy seeing it).
Now is not the time Mr. Katz to forward your personal political agenda.
I'd like to take issue with this statement, as this phenomena is largely due to design quirks that were a part of a questionable plan to increase floor space in the building. See more information on it in this discussion that was held over at Cryptome.org.
Is your company running tools written by ma
Frankly, I think this is a very childish and naive viewpoint. It's easy to say when you haven't lost anyone, or don't know anyone who has. The statue of liberty is just a symbol, the WTC housed thousands of people. I'd choose losing a precious symbol over human lives any day of the week.
I disagree. Numerous times i've seen even the major network anchors almost breakdown in tears. There was even video of the president on the verge of tears.
That would be "victim".
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
With previous significant events where the event itself was caught on film (Pearl Harbor, the assassination and funeral of Kennedy, the attempt on Reagan, the destruction of the Challenger), there was only one version, one angle, one view of the event...and that view was burned into our eyes and into our minds forever -- we all share that same view because it was the only view the media could give us.
With tuesday's events, things are different. There are multiple views, multiple angles, different tapes were made public at different times. There is no one specific version of the crash and the fall that we each will share -- for the first time in a major, caught on film and shown on the media, tragedy, each american's view of it is as individual as if he was there to witness it himself.
Probably won't be the last, but I did feel it was an interesting distinction of the how the new century will differ from the old.
"But remember, most lynch mobs aren't this nice." (H.Simpson)
-- Joe
So is this the new 'American way'? To commit genocide? I have to say I've been bitterly disappointed by the reactions online. I live in NYC, and have been down to the affected area, have inquired about donating blood (got turned away, they have too many applying), and have offered what help I can. EVERYONE I have spoken to in NYC feels a huge sense of loss, and a quiet determination to help in whatever way. There is anger, sure, but it is not the irrational ranting and raving that is so dominant on the net. Yes, I'm an Arab, yes, I utterly abhor what has been done, and wish nothing but the utmost harm to those responsible. However, I fail to see what this hatemongering achieves. I understand and empathise with your anger. hell, I wish I had someone to lash out at and vent, but I recognise how that does nothing more than descend to the same level, and makes a mockery of all that makes this country what it is.
Journalists are (for the most part) human, and don't want to see other humans hurt or killed. They feel emotions, they feel pain, they cry. They throw up the morning after watching several thousand people die before their eyes.
On the other hand, tragedies like this are what make their careers. This is big news. This is how they make all their money. As human as they are, there's something inside of them just hoping something bad will happen to cover. Even worse, sometimes they wish bad situations turn even more horrific...
Even though I'm not a journalist, I can feel this pull. Half of us wants people to be safe, the other half wants to see something spectacular.
What a horrible, contradictory dualism we humans have,
F-bacher
James Tiberius Kirk: "Spock, the women on your planet are logical. No other planet in the galaxy can make that claim."
Because if they were to do this, they would have to admit a number of things which would undermine the message they are trying to send, such as:
1. Osama bin Laden, the current prime scapegoat, was originally supported by the CIA to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. Most of bin Laden's associates, as well as the others associated with the Taliban regime, were trained and financed by the CIA.
2. If it was bin Laden, the bombing was in response to such things as: the bombing and sanctions against Iraq which may have killed clost to a million innocent civillians, the continued oppression of Palestinian civillians by Israel (recent death toll in the thousands, at least), and the destruction of a Sudanese pharmacutical plant by American cruise missiles, death toll unknown because a UN investigation was blocked by the US, but it was the primary source of vaccines and antibiotics for almost all of Central Africa, so it is possible the death toll is in the ten thousands. It would be difficult to acknowledge these things while at the same time clamoring for retribution against Afghanistan, Iraq, etc., because it would be clear that the attack on america itself was a similar act of desparate retribution.
But rather than explaining anything, the media seems more interested in rallying support for another middle eastern war, which will likely lead to further despicable terrorist attacks on america such as this one, AS WELL AS untold thousands of civillian deaths wherever the american government chooses to attack.
Oh yes, one more thing. The images of Palestinians celebrating in Israel you have seen on the news are most likely fake. In a manner of speaking, anyway. They are from 1991 and unrelated to anything going on currently.
"(Man) tries to live his own life as if he were telling a story. But you have to choose: live or tell." --Sartre
First: I would urge everyone to be very aware that not everything we read, regardless of source or attribution, is as it seems. We MUST act with reason and common sense, checking to make sure misinformation isn't used to compound these heinous acts. These bastards want to destroy us, Americans and all of the civilized people of the World, we must not allow it. As we have seen the civilized leaders of the world, even those with whom we have serious political differences, pledge to join us in what must be a massive fight against all those who would seek to destroy civilization and we must hold them to it.
We have already seen extremist from the left and the right, within and without, attempt to advance their "cause" on the back of this tragedy. Surely just as horrendous a crime as the act itself. These extremists must also be dealt with.
I am certain good will prevail over evil.
Second: Tuesday we were all made combatants in this War, we must support our military response. And, perhaps more importantly, all of us must defend the world economy. Remember that it is completely in our hands and minds. Consider Monday the bottom of the economic downturn. Invest prudently, but invest. Buy wisely, but buy. And be vigilant of those who try to gouge or otherwise unfairly profit from this.
Third: I'm a first generation American. My parents were driven from Iran by this same Islamic filth (I'm sorry but I can't help but be prejudice, and feel hate for them all. All I can do is try not to act on it). Deep within me is a hatred of that religion, all religion. They killed more than half of all the people my family knew and loved, stole all they had worked for and filled their lives with pain and terror. Even before the "fundamentalists" took over, my family (Zoroastrian and Catholics) and many others were persecuted for their faith, the cloths they wore, the food they ate (they kill people for drinking wine or eating ham ). I say these things not to spread my hate, It's my burden to bear and I don't wish it on my worst enemy. I say it so I can point out that although I'm filled with hate for ALL muslims and all Gods, my parents are not and didn't teach it to me. They know and love a lot of muslims, muslims helped them flee certain death. But those muslims were secular, they acted in the name of humanity not in the name of Allah. Beware of ANYONE who presumes to act or speak in the name of any god. I understand that some people feel they need faith in gods to be good people , and I try to be respectful when I can but it has gone too far for too long.
Lastly: To all those like me who owe their very existence to this great nation, it's our turn. Half a century ago the descendants of european immigrants went by the tens thousands to the homeland of their ancestors to rid the earth of a great evil. We must do the same, the battles will be fought differently but in the end we too shall prevail. I have great faith in America and the civilized people of the world. This is not a time to wave the flag, it is a time to display it proudly and put all our efforts into the task at hand. Victory at any cost.
It has been said the the government will be investigating suspicious cell phones calls made during yesterday's events in hopes of finding a conversation between terrorists. This is the first time Carnivore is being used in a well publicized situation - and despite my desire for the protection of free speach, I can't bring myself to flame the government for using it under these circumstances. Is Carnivore now our friend? What distinguishes when it should and should not be used?
I take that back. The number is zero. It's just a statue for heaven's sake.
After we punish the enemy with bombs, with bullets, we must salt the soil that the twisted tree of intolerance and fanaticism takes root in. We must change the hearts and minds of the young.
We salt them with small computers. With internet access. With a telephone in every village. With juvenile novels and encyclopedias translated into Arabic. With teachers who speak their language, and who teach them to use these tools to answer questions for themselves. Yes, some of those teachers will be killed. They are soldiers in this war as much as anyone who takes on a beret or a gun, and we can make martyrs of them for the world.
No tyrant can long survive with an informed and educated populace.
The organizations they declaim as the mouthpieces of the US shall be USED as the mouthpieces of the west. We tell their children that there is a life beyond substistence farming and blood feuds. We tell their wives and daughters that there is a life where they are valued as individuals and people in their own right, not as chattel.
We give them the tools of bilateral communication, rather than unilateral indoctrination. We give them the internet. We declare a great work, of making sure that every corner of this globe has access to fast internet access. Not just the US. Not just Europe. The world.
They will see pornography sites. They will also see sites discussing engineering, and simple improvements to agriculture. The curiousity of children will be piqued, and their questions answered. With each question asked, and each answer given, we slowly wean them away from the culture of intolerance.
They'll be able to ask questions without censure or censoring, and get answers they might not otherwise have.
I would sooner carpet bomb with game boys and Pokemon, and an Arabic translation of Monopoly, than FAEs and nuclear explosives. The adults are beyond our reach. The young MUST be reached so that 20 years from now, the thought of piloting a captured airliner into an office building full if innocent bystanders meets with universal horror.
I fear, in the haste for vengeance, that the nature of this conflict will be forgotten. Make no bones about it -- this is a culture war. It can only end with a declaration on the order of Cartago Delendo Est.
We cannot win this war with bombs or bullets, although we can accelerate its prosecution by those means. We can only win this war through a generational conflict; we must win the war in the hearts and minds of the children growing up in the Middle East now.
Winning that longer war will be costlier and less immediately gratifying than cluster bombs and Fuel Air Explosives, and "killing the bastards and everyone that helped them."
It can, however, be a profitable war.
If you are an author, or someone who creates media, contact your publisher about translating your works into Arabic. Someone in the DoD is in charge of outbound propaganda; we should find who that person is, and give them the munitions to win this war.
Bin-Ladin has declared this a culture war.
Let's show him what a culture war TRULY looks like. Let's send in Shakespeare. And Heinlein. And Harlequin Romances, Pokemon and The Simpsons.
Ken Burnside
reprinted without permission from jerrypournelle.com But Jerry won't mind.
Best Slashdot Co
The last few times I've flown, I've been told that all cell phones must be turned off for the duration of the flight. I assumed that this was because they would interfere with cockpit communications. And now news reports are often talking about the cell phone calls made from airplanes during the hijackings. What gives?
The FAA security increases are irrelevant.
The real security increases took place at internet speed, within the first half hour after the first plane hit. Passengers on that plane used cell phones to let the world know they had been hijacked. The news media let the world know that hijacked planes were being used as weapons. Callers from the fourth plane got their cultural norm updated when they called out on their cell phones. They recomputed the risks and benefits of
A) 30+ people attacking five hijackers armed with knifes, vs.
B) sitting quietly while the plane is crashed at high speed into a large object.
Because they were a little late getting this news, they were unable to regain control of the plane when they attacked the hijackers, but they thwarted its use as a weapon. Within twenty four hours the news had spread: if someone with a knife starts to hijack a plane you are on, jump them-- kick them, bite them, knee them in the holy land. Do whatever it takes, because even though you might get hurt, or killed, your odds are a lot better than if you let them get control of the plane.
The real lesson here is that, when attacking a wired society, you'd darn well better coordinate your attacks, because within a blindingly short time the society will have learned and that trick won't work anymore.
-- MarkusQ
My thoughts on the matter are summed up in an essay I wrote addressing what I feel will be most important in the coming months. I would like for anyone reading my essay to share their feelings.
The Price of Freedom
Thanks
Jeremy
With the United States being the only remaining superpower, we (since I am a US citizen) make a perfect target. The sad fact is that the majority of US citizens don't pay much attention to foreign policy. In the case of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, the US support given to Israel makes the US just as guilty of killing Palestinians as the Israelis, from a Palestinian point of view. That's why some Palestinians were applauding the attacks. (Others were donating blood and denouncing the attacks. Most people don't mention that.)
US foreign policy in the Middle East is a long and sordid affair. Our government is not innocent and this will make alot of US citizens wake up.
Now that all of the knee jerkers are ready to flame me - NOTHING that our government has done, should result in a tragedy like this. Regardless of the US foreign policy, innocent civilians DO NOT deserve to die. I stared out of my window towards the Financial District in shock and disbelief as the WTC fell. Terrorism is irrational and results in senseless bloodshed, mostly of innocents.
I hope that the people responsible for Tuesdays attacks are brought to justice swiftly. I also hope that the US retaliation doesn't result in further (and possibly worse) terrorist activity.
I dont have a TV, and i am thankful for the editors on puting updates on the slashdot page. There are plenty of other stories more akin to the usual slashdot type that you can read, and i dont see how a small blurb on the page, rarely more than a paragraph can upset you that much. If you dont want to read a story, then check out the headline and continue reading down the page. Dont click on the link, and then whine about it.
I have found slashdots coverage invaluable over the last few days, and thank the editors once again. They have collected a number of interesting stories, and personal accounts that i probably wouldnt have found without them. I am also glad that they have some more technical articles on the front page.
Over the past few months, I've been wondering whether I should or should not buy a cell phone. The FCC issued warning about cell phones causing brain cancer, but since that only applies to people using the phones for more than an hour a day, I decided to cave in and buy one. When I first heard about this crisis, I thought about how horrible it might be to be trapped under a bunch of rubble. That's when my cell phone went off, and my friend from back east asked me if everything was okay out here in California. Then it hit me...if only everyone in the building had a cell phone! Hundreds, if not thousands, of lives would have been saved. Fortunately, since these devices are nearly ubiquitous, many people escaped death. Another blow for Nokia. Imagine their next advertising gimmick: "Buy our new 6100 phone. It could save your life.. [display picture of person lying dead in bomb rubbel, and picture of live person holding up phone hugging their family members] yuck. - Z;(Bu911
PayPal $$ if you sign up for free offers (eBay, cred cards, e
The whole fucking point of this article seems to be to criticize President Bush and the media. How utterly ridiculous.
I did not vote for Bush, nor do I agree with all his decisions, but this kind of bullshit article is entirely inappropriate during such a time of crisis. President Bush was being moved around by the secret service, it appeared the whitehouse was a possible target, should he have gone back to the whitehouse to be killed? No, he should stay the fuck out of Washington until the immediate danger is over, he can run the country from anywhere anyway!
Then you criticize the media as appearing distant, etc. I saw the whole thing on live television, when the second plance crashed into the second building, the reporters, camera man, and everyone else in the stupio screamed and started shouting. Some of the news networks STILL haven't run ANY commercials, the same reporters have been reporting for 2 days straight with almost no break, eyes are puffy, speach is slow, and they've put all their partisan political leanings aside and have simply tried to report on the fucking news, which is more than I can say for you!
Fucking ridiculous, and fucking inappropriate, please, Katz, STFU!
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
this story from the UK sums it up, rather accurately.
Sad, but true
-
Incorrect! Bush was taken to secure locations due to a credible threat to Air Force One, and clear and present danger to the White House. He went to a secure location (Nebraska) to convene the NSC. These actions may have saved his life. Don't underestimate the importance of these secure locations.
sulli
RTFJ.
Thank god!
Katz are you trying to say President Bush is a coward and is not in control?
I am a fellow New Yorker living in lower Manhattan (SoHo). I understand the mayor of my city (hell of a guy) jumping in front of the camera every five minutes. Guiliani has not been specifically targeted by the terrorists that slammed into the World Trade Towers. Do you want President Bush to be tap dancing in the rubble before the cameras or meeting with his staff to coordinate a response to this unbelievable ACT OF WAR? Remember, Ari talked about specific tactical information the terrorists appeared to have that only President Bush's security detail should know. Scary. Because of former FBI Agent Robert Hanson(sp?), it has been reported those sort of details were passed to the Russians. Who else might have received them? I wish they would have stuck him in the mountain fortress NORAD maintains.
I, personally, believe the "cautious sing-song" monotone is one hell of a lip bitting act. I would not be surprised if a string of profanity that would make a sailor faint has erupted from his soul in private. Remember what he said about Clymer.
Sure President Bush isn't Bill Clinton (glad handing for the camera today) in the speaking department. But, I don't need anyone to feel my pain right now. I want a cold, calculated, well planned, painful, mass devastation of the terrorists, their homes, their families, their harboring country and any nation caught funding their operation. Rinse. Repeat.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Katz, this simply wasn't true. There were several news anchors and people around them full of real emotion, on the verge of tears. For instance Ashleigh Banfield on MSNBC (an incredible woman and anchor who should get a friggin' medal for her work), at the beginning of the terror she was almost crying and could barely speak.
And GW, bless his heart, was almost crying today too. For once, I felt like he was really my president.
There was a lot of reality on TV for once. Too much.
If ever there could be a clear demonstration of the immense power of the television as a medium, this was it. What CNN and BBC effectively did was to invoke a sense of overwhelming shock and "unbounded" compassion for the distraught. Add to this the portrayal of emotion from the reporters. It gives the watcher a sense of communion. He feels he is part of that tragedy, however remote he may have been. This can never be duplicated on the Net, simply because, and pardon the cliche, the human angle doesn't exist.
Everyone, and I mean everyone, who lives in Chicago (even little babies and dogs!) knows that the Sears Tower is still the tallest building in the world. Adding a bunch of paper-mache decoration to the top of your building and calling it "taller" is nonsense and every sensible person in the world knows it. We're 20 floors taller, for God's sake! Some day the records will show the truth.
I wish I could feel safe being so naive as to say something like that. I hope you don't believe that the only role our country has played in this nightmare is as a victim. Certainly everyone who died in the attacks Tuesday was a victim, and purely a victim. But you can't just close your eyes, cover your ears, and pretend that our country has played no role but that of a victim.
Steven N. Severinghaus
I'm a first generation American. My parents were driven from Iran by this same Islamic filth (I'm sorry but I can't help but be prejudice, and feel hate for them all...Half a century ago the descendants of european immigrants went by the tens thousands to the homeland of their ancestors to rid the earth of a great evil. We must do the same, the battles will be fought differently but in the end we too shall prevail...Victory at any cost.
I appreciate your patriotism, but (IMHO) that isn't how America works. Here is my position, as posted earlier today on another site.
By The Numbers (a cross post)
2001 will doubtlessly go down in history as a year when thousands of Americans died because some people felt so strongly about their way of life that they were willing to die rather than change, and were willing to kill countless innocent bystanders in the process.
Except of course that "countless" is absolutely the wrong word to use here. One of the many things that Americans do quite well is count things--everything from hanging chad to corpses gets tallied and tabulated here. So we will in fact have concrete numbers to think about, eventually. Even before the year is out we will have good estimates to start thinking rationally about--thinking being another thing Americans are quite good at. We will know not only how many people they killed, but who they were and why they did it.
Drunk drivers, for instance, are expected to kill around 16000 people this year, give or take a few depending on how jolly the holidays turn out to be. While this is a horrid toll, it is quite a bit better than the 27000 or so that smokers will take out with second hand smoke--both because there are fewer of them, and because most victims of drunken drivers are spared the painful, lingering death of the smoker's victim. These are just two examples, falling between the somewhat larger numbers killed by (say) reckless driving in general and the slightly smaller numbers taken out (for example) by terrorists. But we'll count them all.
Terrible, surely. As Americans we can hardly hear numbers like this without asking ourselves the next question: what are we going to do about this?
Some countries have systems in place to deal with these sorts of problems quickly and effectively. Drink alcohol? We'll chop off your head. That certainly solves the problem of repeat offenders, and there is reason to believe that it acts as an effective deterrent. We, of course, aren't so direct. When an individual can be tied to a crime (say, a drunk driver) we deal with their behavior on a case by case basis. But whether a perpetrator can be found or not, we react like--well, like Americans. There really isn't another word for it. We install air bags, we segregate public places into smoking and non-smoking areas, we take myriad small steps to reduce the risks, to mitigate the damage, to solve the problem. We study it. We seek cures and explanations, predictive indicators and systematic risk factors. We debate. We argue. And above all, we seek to educate.
Some may call us wimps, others may call us civilized. In the long run, it doesn't really matter what they call us, because in the long run our system is phenomenally effective. Our wheels may grind slowly, but like the mill of justice they grind exceedingly fine.
True, there are always those who preach the extremes. Anyone with a radio can hear them--just fiddle with the dial until you find a station that's all talk (and I am thankful, little action). Or hop on the internet. Smokers should be doused with gasoline. Drunk drivers are doing us a service by culling those people too weak or stupid to get out of their way. We should use our military might to turn foreign countries into parking lots. All the fags should be sent to Haiti. Everyone should be required to smoke for a year, so they'll see how hard it is to quit. Drunk drivers were sent here by Satin. We should embrace Allah. Nuke them from orbit. Kill them all, let God sort 'em out. Everyone is gay, but most people haven't admitted it yet. The Blacks are behind this. Or the Jews. Or the Californians. Elvis is stalking me. Etc, etc.
The great thing about America is that we don't shut these people up. We don't have them shot, or locked away for decades. We don't even ignore them, really, although most of us don't act on their advice. Instead, we react to them like Americans always react to things. They get counted, along with the chad, along with the casualties, and their voices are weighed in when we consider our options, ground in the mill of public policy.
Which, as has been noted, grinds exceedingly fine.
-- MarkusQ
Thankfully i didnt know anyone who died, and I send condolences to those who did. The world trade center has been a part of NYC for as long as I can remember it shakes my sense of permenance to think of it gone. it is one of those things that is always there.
..was. the past tense still doesnt come easily.
I dont think that blood pays for blood. I am saddened
by the events last tuesday, and i am saddened by the events which I am sure to come.
It is a strange feeling to mourn for humanity. To feel that the human race has gone mad.
Perhaps it may help those who are angry to view this webpage. It might remind us all what makes us great.
http://spinster.org/~david
Many might think that this is too lenient a stance. That it is giving in to terrorism. But let us remember the words of JFK, words which very well have prevented WWIII.
"Let no one see an offer to negotiate as a sign of weakness, Let no one fear to negotiate, nor negotiate out of fear.."
just some thoughts.
--------------------- Turn evil by smiling.
I read this.. it's.. an amazing read. Also.. reading in comparison with many books about SAS missions.. it's remarkable how ineffective US forces can be. Not because of inferiority of the men. But due to the way they are commanded... more out of fear of public reaction than what's militarily best.
Accounts of well organised special forces missions shows us how easy it is to wage small secret wars.. and how to send small groups behind lines... just say where Osama bin Laden is.. and he could be snatched in an instant
In the past I have even defended some of your more outrageous statements but this goes too far. As someone who has served in the defence of this coutry for the majority of my adult life, I can tell you to a certainty that what Bush did is exactly what needed to be done. Protect the top policy makers so they can make the decisions they need to in case immediate response is necessary. Instead of worring about popularity points or getting his face in front of the TV, Bush and his policy team were busy coordinatinbg the first National Aviation grounding. First in the history of the US .EXACTLY THE APPROPRIATE RESPONSE. THAT SINGLE POLICY DECISION ALONE PROBABLY SAVED MANY LIVES. I'm so upset by your clueless attitude Katz it almost makes me ashamed that I may very well risk my life in the coming months defending this country only to be spit on by the Katzites of this country. Katz you should be ashamed!
"God fights on the side with the best artillery." - Napoleon, Marshal of France - speaking truth to power
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
When Bush was on TV, all I saw was a deer in the headlights, a small scared child reading off of a teleprompter. He did not inspire confidence. He did not speak from his heart; he read what his speechwriter wrote for him. I did not feel he was up to the task of dealing with such important tasks.
On the other hand, Colin Powell kicked ass during his numerous apperances. And this really is the thing that comforts me; Bush really does have a great set of advisors and a great cabinet.
Bush leads a group of great men; unfortunately, Bush himself is not a great leader of men.
or something containing noxious, harmful, dangerous, brain-damaging chemicals.
I mean, what the FUCK is a sing-song monotone?
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Much as I hate to say it, these resources seem every bit as one-sided as President Bush's declaration of war against the terrorists.
Does anyone know of any balanced articles, that talk about Palastinian outrages against Israelis as well as (note: not instead of) Israeli and American outrages?
D
Someone posted this to Kuro5hin.org and it got modded away fairly quickly.* From what I can remember from the various posts rebuking this, it was written in 1973 (notice nothing recent mentioned); before Americas habits of mucking around in other nations affairs were so well known.
* For anyone unaware, on Kuro5hin.org, registered readers get to vote on stories before they get posted publicly.
Liberty in your lifetime
While watching the news tonight, there was one quote that sounded ominous to me. I don't have it exactly, but it was something to the effect of the United States employing 'the full spectrum [speaker's emphasis] of its military might' in a retaliatory response.
/.ers' thoughts on these points.
It would seem like overkill to me, but it could be said to sound like the use of nuclear weapons has not been ruled out.
I know the United States has a long-standing 'no first use' policy, but under the circumstances I can't help but wonder if that will remain in effect. How quickly might Afghanistan (or whatever country he's holed up in) cough up bin Laden and his cronies, if they were threatened with an ICBM or two? Would the court of world opinion renounce or support such an action, in light of what has happened? Just looking for other
~Philly
1968, El Al 707 was hijacked to Algiers. After a month, Israel cut a deal to exchange the hostages for Palestinian prisoners.
September 6, 1970, the PFLP (Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine) organized the attempted "simultaneous hijacking of four airliners bound for New York" . On one of the targetted planes, an El Al flight, the pilot put the plane into a nosedive, an armed air marshall shot dead hijacker Patrick Arguello, and the leader of the hijacking Leila Khaled "was overpowered by male passengers and savagely beaten". When the plane arrived at London, Khaled was taken into British custody. However two successfully hijacked airplanes had been diverted to Jordan at a former British airfield, Dawson's Field. The PFLP also successfully hijacked a fifth plane to bring their total to hundreds of hostages, dozens of them British. What followed were dramatic secret negotiations between the PFLP, Jordan, Britain, the United States, and Israel, some of whose details are now known because of a British law requiring release of documents after 30 years. A deal was struck to exchange Khaled and other Palestinians for the hostages. The PFLP had won again. Or had it?
King Hussein proceeded to launch a war which drove out the armed Palestinian groups he had formerly welcomed on his soil. This war was what came to be reviled by the Palestinians as Black September.
On the other hand, Leila Khaled has claimed "The success in the tactics of the hijacking and imposing our demands and succeeding in having our demands implemented gave us the courage and the confidence to go ahead with our struggle."
While I like your attitude a lot more than that of all those guys running around yelling bloody revenge, I have a couple of problems with your post:
To start off, who exactly do you refer to as "the enemy"? If I read you correctly, the whole of the Islamic/Arabic world. Sorry, sweeping overgeneralization.
What's even worse is the total disregard for cultures other than our own your post shows - there is nothing inherently better in modern Western culture than in traditional Islamic culture (which was, as can not be pointed out often enough, a haven of learning and tolerance for centuries during which European crusaders lined their way to the holy land with corpses). Sure, there are extremists, and there's not the slightest reason to defend them and their sick actions, but these extremists are by no means a majority, and they are by far not the only thing that makes up Islamic culture.
I have a gut feeling that this sort of (sorry) cultural chauvinism is at the heart of much of the terror we have been witnessing during recent years...
frotz grue
And could someone moderate the parent up? If my post is worth +4, his damn sure is.
Best Slashdot Co
By nightfall, CNN, MSNBC and the networks were moving away from the dramatic video and the indescribable scenes of wreckage and carnage and calling in the policy wonks and propellerheads who hide out in Washington caves until something like this happens. The focal point of all the airtime then shifted from the devastation in New York to the parsing and analyzing of the political, governmental and intelligence communities. For future reference, that may be a good time to turn off the tube and get online, the medium of individual stories, feelings and experiences.
On the one hand, I agree with Katz. When the talking heads start spouting, it's time to move on.
But then, when Katz starts spouting silliness like this...
President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day.
...I know it's time to get off the 'net as well, and move on with life.
The simple fact is that many of the leaders in the Islamic world simply treat their people like shit. They half to make up some enemy to distract from the fact that they are tyrants and any decent people would overthrow them. The peacfull state of Isreal is a perfict target - and likewise their strongest ally the USA.
The current assinations used in self defense by Isreal are a perfict example. The peace process was going along nicely until Airifat started to face political unstability - immeadiately Isreal started to be provoked. Lets make no mistake about it - it was not at all for religious reasons, or at all for moral reasons, but only because political islamic leaders started to feel threatened and needed an enemy to distract the people from the current corrupt powers.
In a way, it is America's fault. We should never have tolerated such an injust government as Saddam Husseins (spelling) to stay in power. He has more than anybody used the war mentality to distract the people from the fact that they are murdered and pillaged (by him) not the USA. But displacing him, and not tollerating others like him was politically costly so the USA simply put up with them, and managed it. - That was a fatal mistake that we paid for this tuesday.
The idea may have been to get Air Force One headed back to Andrews at top speed, where it would have been a bright blue and white target for what would have been a human guided missle.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
If I recall correctly, how long sanctions last on Iraq is up to Iraq. The conditions for the lifting of sanctions are clearly stated in UN resolutions.
As for a US assult on Iraq, we are just patrolling no-fly zones. Zones established to prevent Saddam's ill treatment of people within his borders. We don't bomb civilian targets, only military ones. If those military targets are in civilian space, that is Iraq's doing. We only bomb to defend our patrols.
I'll see your senator, and I'll raise you two judges.
Good God, I'm actually defending Katz.
Best Slashdot Co
www.jpost.com for one.
And the atrocities are plenty.
Resume your Katz-bashing on Monday.
Predictably, Jon continues to grind his new media vs. old media 'axe'. However, there's a new twist: in this case, at least, he admits that the old media has an impact that the new hasn't significantly blunted.
Typically, Katz frames the argument about the relative benefits of both old and new media outlets in terms of politicians/pundits vs. the man on the street. Presumeably, the Politicians and Pundits cannot present news sans bias, yet the man on the street can. His position has always struck me as simplistic and puzzling. I could give a damn about the media outlet type...the question is whether or not the outlet reports the news accurately, fairly, and professionaly. Katz himself is a perfect example of the "Man on the Street" that reports with bias. PBS's Newshour is a perfect example of "Old Media" that gets it right (see below). Dan Rather and the newsroom that he runs is an example of "Old Media" that shows regular bias despite their protestations to the contrary.
The sad fact is that Jon's brand of 'reporting' is a good example of one of the reasons that the "New Media" continues to lag behind the old. I've read his pieces off and on since 'Wired' and his bias and, frankly, immaturity, are often on display.
Furthermore, it's obvious that Jon frequently heeds his own call to "turn off the tube and get online, the medium of individual stories, feelings and experiences". He often has a poor grasp of facts, political realities, and the world in general. His slanderous use of the phrase "fled to various bunkers" to describe the President's activities after the incident is evidence that Jon has little understanding of the facts surrounding events nor the tremendous repercussions should the President have been killed. The destruction of the World Trade Center was a tremendous blow struck against US, and world, economics. The destruction of the President, (not George W Bush the man, mind you, whom it's obvious that Katz despises, but rather the President of the United States) would have been a tremendous blow against the US government. The combination of the two blows would result in chaos for this country, and the world. Katz's statement is silly, petty, and poorly thought out for so many reasons, too many to describe here. I'm not surprised by them, though: it's typical of him.
The "cool and natural" demeanor of Reporters that Jon calls "odd" I call refreshing and professional. I don't want a reporter sobbing, dazed, shocked, exhausted, angry, etc. I take it for granted that even the most hardboiled reporter is genuinely moved by recent events and, if they're capable of containing their emotions while doing their job, they're to be congratulated.
Anecdotes are nice and occasionally important. However, hard facts are what makes news, IMHO, and I want those facts presented rationally and dispassionately. I enjoyed Jon's first piece about the tragedy but I certainly wouldn't describe it as journalism: I was genuinely moved when he mentioned that he fell to his knees and prayed. However, that's anecdotal. Ultimately, I want facts, not emotions.
On-Line reporting, at least reporting unconnected with "Old Media" has a long way to go and attitudes like Katz's are at least in part to blame. Katz has crowed for years about the impending demise of "Old Media" and now, in today's piece, he's admitted that "old Media" still reigns supreme. I was surprised to see Katz admit that much: I'll be even more surprised when he admits that his brand of "reporting" is one of the reasons why "On-Line" journalism still eats the "Tube's" dust.
Replace Katz and his ilk with the On Line equivalent of Walter Cronkite, Robin McNeil, or Jim Lehrer, and things might change. Until then I'll still rely heavily on the "Tube" for news.
Now it's time to plug my favorite news program: PBS's "NewsHour". If you:
1. take News seriously and
2. despise the "O'Reilly Factor" method of news reporting
then do yourself a big favor and watch the NewsHour tomorrow afternoon.
If you love New York, your heart will break when the smoke clears. Something about the city is busted for good, no matter what the mayor says.
One has only to think of London under the blitz or the San Francisco earthquake to know that great cities can recover from great disasters.
According to seminal urbanologist Jane Jacobs, cities are inherently resilient to catastrophe. More damage is done by misguided urban planning.
The World Trade Center, as its name suggests, serves a national and international market. The demand for the products and services that the companies in the World Trade Tower provided is still there. Compared to the damage caused by hurricanes in Florida, the cost to rebuild is manageable.
If New York could thrive despite a crime rate that killed many more people than the terrorist over the last 10 years, it can survive this single event.
I suspect that the most lasting effect is that architects will reconsider the need for 110 storey buildings.
I would not know if that is true or not, but according to this site, they passed 1991 footage showing the palestinians dancing.
Anyone with better info can deny/confirm this ?
The Story is here
David
You are incredibaly stupid.
America is not the 'controler' of the islamic world, we have practialy no control whatsoever, and are widely reviled by a lot of people there.
Russia is in no position to do anything right now. They have tons of oil, but no capablity whatsoever to manage it.
Oh, and they tried and failed to take over Afghanistan. Are you so sure we can do it?
ReadThe ReflectionEngine, a cyberpunk style n
Oh yes, one more thing. The images of Palestinians celebrating in Israel you have seen on the news are most likely fake. In a manner of speaking, anyway. They are from 1991 and unrelated to anything going on currently.
... you imply the Palestinians are complaining about old footage. Funny, let's see ...
Palestinian Authority threatens camera crews covering celebrations
Oh but wait, an anonymous internet website that offers no proof is more credible than our corporate eviiiiil media, no ? Please.
- sigs are for wimps.
someone asked the ceo of american airlines:
"HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS BEFORE?"
fuck..what an idiot.
Nice thought but you're wrong. Planes running fly-by-wire are unsafe and just as dangerous, go read the computer risks forum (I'm too worn out and distracted to dig up the link). There are better solutions than pilotless aircraft. One thought that springs to mind is a fly-by-wire backup system in case of hijacking, of course this adds the risk that a plane (or worse planes) could be taken over simply by taking control of wherever the system is run from.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.
And to stop now and say "maybe we should think about why we were attacked..." just encourages the idea that if America does something you don't like, kill a few thousand of their people to make them change their course.
There is a less violent way to have your voice heard. Whether that be through non-violent protests, publicizing points-of-view, or bribing and lobbying your them to change their policies, there is way.
You listen to Dead Kennedy's also? cool.
I heard the conspiracy of covering up the thousands upon thousands dead in Panama also. I even saw a video showing maybe 100 casualties all in all (claiming the piles to be thousands.)
In the end however I was largely unconvinced. Maybe you could provide some more evidence? BTW, Panama has been a happier, prosperous *democracy* since then that even was given control of the Panama Canal.
However maybe when we get bombed to oblivian for our crimes we can all go live in the hemp utopia where we have all the nutritious food, strong rugged clothing, paper and feul all from a renewable nitrogen fixing resource!
No wonder certain people look forward to the end of civilization.
What are you doing, making a compilation for snuff film fans?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Golda Meir's decision was for Israel to resort to assassination of those responsible for organizing and carrying out the attack, an operation later referred to be the media as the "Wrath of God". Calahan concludes that method which worked was for Mossad to cut loose from bureaucratic restrictions a mostly independent operating team organized similar to current US special forces. This team was given a list of potential targets, a directive to not harm innocents, and autonomy to go hunting.
I am concerned that it would be simply impossible for any current United States government to authorize similar autonomy despite the necessity of success.
One key difference between then and today is that today's targets might be less inclined to be in Europe, an area in which it was relatively easier for the Israeli assassination teams to operate in than say Afghanistan or Pakistan for Americans. Calahan's thesis also mentions an operation where the proximity of Israel to Lebanon enabled a massive force of dozens of Israeli commandos to kill three major targets and about a hundred Palestinian guerillas.
In another disturbing article The Atlantic Monthly raises the issue of whether the unwillingness and/or inability of United States intelligence agencies to conduct longterm missions to penetrate local populations in areas such as Afghanistan might make any effective action against Osama Bin Laden's organization impossible. The United States doesn't even train agents in the local languages let alone assign agents to become experts specializing in a country.
Too bad the speech was lame and he looked like a deer in the headlights. He looked better earlier in the day when he was speaking off the cuff between airplanes rather than staring at a teleprompter; the various world leaders that CNN and BBC were showing were mostly speaking from notes or without notes, and looked much more genuine. I agree with Katz that Giuliani was doing a good job of acting like a leader, and like a mayor, and reacting like an actual human (though almost getting killed like he did will certainly get your attention.) While Bush just didn't.
On the other hand, Bush at least didn't go off on a "we'll kick your ass" rant against anyone specific before they've really identified which Bin Laden was responsible for it; we're better off without that kind of warmongering.
Note on my political biases - I don't like either of these politicians - Giuliani's a fascist who substantially increased government power by inventing extensive abuses of RICO and by pushing poor people and non-"respectable" people out of the visible parts of NYC. But he's doing a great job here. Bush never struck me as being Presidential material - he's a frat boy along for the ride on the coattails of his despicable but competent father and doing whatever the military-industrial complex wants; Jeb Bush would have been a much better choice. And I'm not really impressed here. Bill Clinton would have done a much better job - he may be a sleazy used-car dealer, but he's a really really competent politician. I'm not sure how well Al Gore would have done - he'd be more genuine than the other two, and I'd guess he'd be more likely to end up looking like a leader than Bush, but he could also blow it pretty badly. I'm glad I'm not stick in their shoes this week.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
The only motivation that they've ever mentioned so far is hatred of America. Unfortunately, they will undoubtedly succeed at their real goal. Aside from causing pain.
The real goal is radicalization. Hopefully, the US will become radical. We will lash out. If they're lucky, we'll lash out at a pharmeceutical plant, but even if we lash out at the proper people, we will do so with extreme force. This will radicalize the people that sympathize with the terrorists. And that is the real goal.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
I think that Mr Katz has made a mistake about President Bush's 'singsong monotone'.
I used to be a doorman and I have hit a lot of people and thrown them out. Mostly they yell and swear and threaten with anything they can think of. A few, a very few fortunately, use just the same tone as President Bush did and they are the ones who come back when you have finished your shift and, well in one case, beat up my friend so badly he had eight broken fingers, a broken jaw, two cracked ribs and a broken arm. He never worked on the door ever again. Another acquaintance got an iron bar across the back of his head. Someone even got shot (most unusual here in Australia) as he walked out of the club when his shift finished.
That singsong monotone is the most dangerous thing that I have heard for a long time and I am worried that all that suppressed anger might lead the US into something they can't win and can't leave.
Afganistan has been the key that broke three empires already (Moghul, British and Russian). We could have a lot bodybags coming back home if prudence isn't used.
I would like to agree with you. However here is the rub...
The irony is that during the Cold War, the Muslim Brotherhood was supported by the West to fight Communism and as a result, they joined the battle against the then Soviet Union in Afghanistan. But, not even the Americans knew what they were helping create.
That is from the first article you refered to. The next article is even more telling...
That was a turning point, for the regime could no longer deny accusations that it was harbouring top terror suspects including Osama bin Laden, the man suspected of masterminding the blasts that killed over 200 people in Nairobi and Dar es Salaam last year.
(note: Emphasis added, but I didn't put that misspelling in there, but I do in my own comments.)
So where do you think they got that training again?
No.
They were attacking a free society; one whose generous liberties are at odds with their view of what is right. They were out to dammage or destroy a way of life that makes a mockery of their rigid, authoritarian views. And if, as a result of their actions, we curtail our own freedoms -- change our way of life, then their attack will have succeeded, their objective will have been attained.
oops, that should read "...the next paragraph from the same article is even more telling..."
OK, I'll admit my first reaction to the events was 'wow! a plane flew into the WTC! I gotta watch that again and again!' And thanks to TiVo, brought to you by the Linux OS, I did. I did this with the footage of people falling from the buildings too, I admit.
I'm not so ashamed to look back and admit this now, because before the dust even settled folks started looking at how this tragedy can benefit them. In Indiana they raised the price of gas to $5 a gallon to take advantage of scared suckers. A local grocery store urges you to shop there because a percentage will go to the rescue efforts, or the families, or the children, or some such. Scam artists are burning up the phone lines begging for donations for the families of firemen lost in the wreckage.
I was watching the news, and the anchor is getting all misty-eyed about the flag being raised out of the wreckage, saying 'this is our Iwo Jima'. Well, we had 'our Pearl Harbor' a couple of days ago, I guess the logical next step is 'our Hiroshima' before we get thru the weekend. Stay tuned for the details.
The anchor then introduced a chee-zee poem written and recited by a student of a teacher who perished in the disaster. It was accompanied by 'stirring' music.
Wow, we Americans know how to put on a show. We know how to use death and mayhem to further our careers. We can know indulge ourselves in a bit of jingoism and racism, too. Woo-hoo! In bars across america country musicians are furiously penning what they hope will be 'our 'Proud To Be An American, where at least I know I'm free by Lee Greenwood', while outside the bass player and drummer beat the crap out of an Indian student they've mistaken for a 'rag-head'. I need to turn the TV off. We all do. If you can in some way do something that helps directly, do it. But spare us the schmaltz and cheese.
Thank you very much, goodnight.
The statement that George Bush "fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day" is rather disingenuous and short-sighted.
Which part of that is wrong? He did flee to various locations (which I can only assume contained bunkers for his safety), and he did seem to shrink throughout the day. The first is fact, the second is a statement of opinion backed up widely by popular opinion, buffered by a "seemed by." You've got no gripe here, and nor does anybody else that's been posting and bitching about this statement.
-Waldo
Does anyone know if the 6 stories of mall and subway below ground level caved in? If so, that's a lot space for rubble.
Well, the planes did crash! You do the math.
-Waldo
sunset in israel was at 6:50pm on the 11th. israel is 7 hours ahead of EST.
if the video was taken around 11[am] our time (which seems to be just about the right time). that would make it 6 pm their time
and thus... sunset....
NOT around 3pm as some of the videos show.
So, either CNN knows how to defy Kepler's Laws of Planetary Motion.....
Or they reused at least *some* old footage.
Complexity Happens
No, the way to put it to rest is to kill the people that did it and everyone who lent them aid, as should have been done a long time ago.
We could have got real with Bin Laden after he took out those military barracks a few years ago. Instead, we postured and blew some holes in the sand with a few cruise missiles. Now we see the price of half-hearted strategy and wishful thinking when it comes to implacable enemies.
Next time it will be a lot worse. Think missing Russian nukes, or Anthrax. This isn't a fight we can avoid, as much as we wish to. It's time to finish it now before the price is even more than we can bear. And it's time for Moslems everywhere to decide which world they want to belong to.
I just spotted this at the BBC's website. Quote: "Two Americans, two Australians and six Germans are being held in detention in Kabul, charged with spreading Christianity. If found guilty they could face the death penalty. " Apparently they've been held for some time, but our wonderful U.S. media failed to mention it before as far as I can tell. The link is as follows:
i a/ newsid_1543000/1543135.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/south_as
Only the naive apply right and wrong to international affairs - think instead of your interests and who is for and against them.
There are a few good points in there, but for the rest of the article he's just a rambling moron. The UK received a heck of a lot more of the Marshall money than Germany, for example. Since he "was there", he should know better. I won't bother with a point-by-point rebuttal, since he doesn't seem worth it.
It appears from the press that we are headed to war. I was wondering, what are our goals? Retribution? Revegenge? "Justice?"
Ten years ago I remember large disapointment of the American Public when we attacked Iraq; we didn't go further and replace their dictatorship with a democracy. Is this our goal? This is very much different from the above. Is this goal more nobel or permanent?
I have bad recollection, but about 2 years ago I heared an NPR article on the Mexican/American war and the general in charge; who made it clear to the civilian population that they were *not* staying and *not* going to control their contry; and they we only wanted to remove their dictator and replace it with democracy. From the story, at first the Americans were greeted with suspicion. Then, one of the weoman accuesed a soldier of rape. The very next day the General held a court-martial and hung the soldier in the town square (even though there was ample evidence that the soldier was innocent). Word of this spead, and from the documentary, passage through each remaining town was easier and in some cases brought cheer.
Is this too idealistic of a picture to have? Perhaps I'm just too niave.
the following are anagrams of "osama bin laden":
a damn alien S.O.B.
a lesbian nomad
bean sad oilman
blonde asia man
a salami nob end
a salad bin omen
a slain abdomen
animal bed son
be a oil sandman
abandon a slime
a salina mob den
a asia blond men
a annal bid me so
i'm on a nasal bed
a bad menial son
a bad man lesion
bad man is alone
a blade man is on
a bald man is one
a bland sea i'm on
a able man do sin
a lebanon midas
almond is a bean
a damn bean silo
i'm on a land base
lend mao a basin
a bias man led on
a lamb inane sod
a slab made in on
a bam lead in son
a ideal man snob
a denial man sob
a inland sea mob
a mad insane lob
a sand alien mob
be a sand oilman
mean salon bid
a slain man bode
a main salon bed
a man an bed soil
banana model is
baa sand oilmen
baa snail demon
amoeba land sin
so die banal man
madonna is able
bad seaman loin
bad animal nose
bad alien mason
bad insane loam
bland sea amino
lesbian and mao
bemoan sad nail
nab idea salmon
nab damn sea oil
ban domain sale
This kind of blatant misinformation is exactly what we need to guard against. It's an old trick, take the facts and distort them subtly to completely misrepresent reality. The US and other allies regularly bomb Iraqi military targets, they bomb Radar installations and command and control infrastructure Iraq uses to direct missile attacks on overflying jets. Your loyalties are betrayed by the bare faced lies in the text of the article you are promulgating. There are thousands of innocent civilians dead in America and Palestinians are dancing in the street. There is a clear distinctions to be drawn between right and wrong here. The Palestinians and other Arabs have been hell bent on the destruction of Israel as a state, they tried to destroy Israel and failed, now they want Israel to forget all that and concede the territory they were attacked from back to their attackers and just HOPE that the Arabs will be nice enough to not try the same thing again. Moreover they want the parts of Jerusalem originally offered when they collectively walked out of the UN decades ago and embarked on their antisemitic crusade. In the mean time just to underscore how insane that policy would be for Israel, Palestinian terrorists rocket and suicide bomb civilian targets while hiding in civilian centers like the refugee camps. Your two faced lies don't withstand scrutiny. The only deliberate and targeted murder of civilians is the terrorist attacks and we're all doomed if we forget that and listen to the lies and doublethink from the groups who condone murder. I no longer give a damn about Palestinians or their cause. Enough is enough, you can gloat over the death of innocent lives but that's the same mistake that the Palestinians made when celebrating Sadam's SCUD missile attacks on Israeli cities and American & Saudi targets. It's time for the Palestinians to drop the murderous and futile rhetoric and genuinely support peace. If there's a wrong side to be on they have an instinct for picking it. The only way they can ever hope to regain their territory is by earning the trust of their neighbours, that will take decades of concerted work towards peace. Every bomb and rocket moves them further away from their ultimate objectives. If they knew how far the attack on America had set back their cause they'd have been weeping not celebrating.
Alas, you wouldn't know truth if it leapt up and burrowed into your ass.
Do make the effort to become informed, RJames. Pulling the "victim" card will only earn you disgusted looks from the civilized world.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Phil Zimmerman makes the point far more effectively than I could ever do, but in summary: a potential message hidden being sent between two terrorists could also be the victim of human rights abuses trying to get a plea for help through to Amnesty International. Without secure encryption and tools such as stenagography those living in oppressed regimes would not be able to report the truth to the outside world without certain execution. Please consider the effects fully before making knee-jerk comments such as this.
Phillip.
Property for sale in Nice, France
They went after the people who finance these developments, and finance their use against innocents as well as outraged third-world maniacs. And like the US in Iraq, never mind the collateral damage.
Doesn't it strike you as significant that several times as many more or less innocent bystanders are killed every day, directly and indirectly, by US involvement in the affairs of other nations, as were killed in one day in New York?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Urgh. I don't even know where to start.
First of all, MY analysis of two media. The integration of TV and the Internet has created a bizarre mutant child of online and offline media, where the repetitive imagery and propellerheads of television news are subject to the scrutiny and discussion of numerous newshounds with too much time on their hands... the result being that along with television's processed, plastic-packaged presentation of events, we have the opportunity to view with a few clicks of the mouse how hundreds, maybe thousands (we won't have specific numbers for possibly three weeks, so stop asking... ... hmm, poor taste alert) of people feel about the presentation, and how other people feel about how people feel... and so on and so forth. This makes media uniquely responsible for what they present... not so much now, but as interactive forums become larger and more common, television will bend to the will of the message maniacs.
It's quite obvious that Mr. Katz didn't vote for President Bush. That's fine; I didn't, either. I think the president rose to the occasion quite nicely, though; his staff made sure that he was safe for the duration of the attacks (I bet Mr. Katz feels pretty silly now that the New York Times reports there was a credible and specific threat to the President), and he played his political cards right.
When our president addressed the nation, he had two options. He could read a teleprompter containing a script approved by his staff and listen to their advice on how to remain calm and deliver it so that he didn't identify with and therefore justify the violent feelings brewing in most of America and start a mass lynching of Arab-Americans... or he could just say whatever was on his mind at the moment. Given those two options, I think we were pretty lucky.
It's also rather obvious that Mr. Katz also shares my distaste for television network news. I think the news organizations of America performed far above and beyond the call of duty... the Three Horsemen (Rather, Jennings, and Brokaw) put in two back-to-back sixteen-hour days on the air. Aaron Brown and Shep Smith both remained with us, commercial-free, for the first two days after the attacks. Ashleigh Banfield herself narrowly escaped WTC 1, and was struggling to remain composed as she related the story of herself and her crew. No thought was given to the advertisers who weren't having their products or services displayed for us to buy; in fact, CNN was broadcast over nearly every Turner network instead of regular programming. In times of ongoing crisis such as this, the news becomes a grueling business. Everyone involved with every network displayed a tremendous amount of intestinal fortitude as they reported on this most, ah, unique event. Rather than dismiss them, I think they all deserve our praise... for a change.
With their usual hubris, reporters and politicians were promising us that everything was going to change.
I have late-breaking news for you, Mr. Katz. Everything HAS changed. The bar has been raised for Shocking Terrorist Acts. Americans everywhere are fortified with cellular phones and the memory of this incident, coupled with a firm resolve to never let it happen again. (I would like to see anyone try to hijack a plane with a knife now.) All of us have seen the powerful impact that the Internet and wireless communications can have and have had in this situation, and we will use this knowledge the next time disaster strikes.
...bringing me to my final point. Sadly, the change that will have the most impact on America is that despite increased security, despite carriers off the coasts, despite air marshals, despite military strikes around the world... there will no doubt be a next time.
I'm not entirely sure of the answer to this: is there anything in either Zoroastrianism or Catholicism which requires yout to eat pigs, drink fermented beverages, or wear certain kinds of clothes? You could make a case for fish on Fridays, but is there any reason that you must risk trichinosis, alcoholism and probably also being shot?
Actually, your hate would logically be directed at organisations claiming to have authority from one diety or another, when they patently don't. The Q'ran requires Muslims to treat ``the people of the book'' (ie Jews and Christians) gently. The so-called fundamentalists ignore this plain, fundamental instruction; they don't even treat their own people gently. Clearly, they are not who they claim to be, they are not genuine fundamentalists.
It's just another case of blind, stupid our-side vs their-side bullying and you can put in pretty much any set of opposing names you like: Protestant/Catholic (Ireland), Atheist/Diest (USSR, China), White/Black (Rhodesia, RSA), Islander/Chinese (Indonesia), Hutu/Tutsi (Rwanda) and so on.
However, for each bullying asshole, there are hundreds of reasonable human beings, swept along in the flow. Don't write them off, or the militant idiots will have achieved their goal for you.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The real enemy of freedom in this attack is the narrow-minded delusions both Christians and Muslims willingly indulge in; the fundamentalist Muslim delusions just happen to be more immediately violent. Bush's reading of Psalm 23 during his 9/11 Oval Office speech is so ironic it's laughable. Consider: "Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Death, I fear no evil, for you are with me" roughly equates to "I'm not afraid of death because God is on my side. God is on my side which means I'm right, and my enemies are evil. I am so right, I'm ready to die over it."
Quoting Christian martyr-making propaganda as part of a rant denouncing Islamic martyrs?!? I know the speech-writers were pressed for time, but come on! Could they possibly milk the situation for any more sentimentalist, inflammatory remarks? Was that a Presidential Address or the dramtic climax of a made-for-TV movie?
A whole country of the fattest, most spoiled, and most self-righteous people on the planet are filled with indignant fury, and the country's leaders (elected by popular vote) know that all they need to do for their approval ratings to shoot through the roof is FAN THE FLAMES OF WAR. Loose them doggies! "The people are hungry for blood, let them gather in the colosseum (their living rooms) to watch the lions (the US Military) tear apart the evil and insurgent Christians (Muslims)! Maybe afterwards we can go cruxify Jesus (Bin Laden)! Yee ha!"
Scotty, beam me up quick! This planet is so stupid it might be contagious!
Read it in the NYT (print) this morning. I don't know about six stories, they just said the tunnel itself was blocked with rubble and it appeared to have been from an actual collapse of the tunnel.
"Biped! Good cranial development. Evidently considerable human ancestry."
Yes, but not the thirty or so times that it has been shared already in the last three days. Read before you post.
Sad that they don't have the balls to do it again. There are bits of the Moon just screaming to be explored.
Speaking of America, my favourite quote from the Moon era was one astronaut, who was asked (silly reporter!) what went through his mind on the launch pad. His reply was along the lines of ``The fact that every nut, bolt and rivet in this thing was built by the lowest bidder.''
That kind of makes the point that it's not adventurous leaders taking the decisions any more, but greedy and conservative businessmen. As it was in the Moon era, so it is now ten or a hundredfold. And it's killing America's heart and soul.
NASA's hamstrung and couldn't launch a kite for under a billion dollars, Microsoft is given pretty close to carte blanche to rape the IT industry, and the Army's way of fighting a war is to drown the opposition in hardware rather than fight with careful, efficient style.
Who can respect that?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Why not pick the British Hawker Harrier, Franco-British Concorde or Australian HoveRoc as examples?
Or rockets? What does the US have to match Russia's Energia, or even China's Long March launcher? Can the USA launch little loads for a fraction of the price that Japan does?
Or how about radar? Both Australia and China have radar systems that stomp all over Amercia. Jindalee can track and identify air traffic on the other side of the world, and the Chinese equivalent shows up ``stealth'' aircraft like magnesium distress flares.
Yup. Countless times, the Commonwealth countries (among others) have pulled US asses out of a sling.
Take time off blowing your own trumpet to appreciate everyone else, and they might be nicer to you.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
So, is the US really giving them this money, or is it just borrowing from Peter to pay Paul?
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Several religions have a bad habit of finessing their rules to mean ``we can do what we like'' or in other words ``the end justifies the means.''
An Islamic example is the sura that places woman as ``one step below'' men but often gets read in practical terms as ``one step above an animal.'' A Catholic one is classifying heretics as not being neighbours, despite copious instruction and example to the contrary in the Bible, a book which they sometimes claim to follow. It's doctrinally OK for a Catholic to break any kind of deal or agreement made with a heretic, without notice. Using similar methods, Saddam and many others who (I believe falsely) call themselves Muslim work with a similar self-defeating finesse.
They're being ``penny wise, and pound foolish.'' And I quote: ``Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.'' Matthew 23:23
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
The article does absolutely nothing to justify the WTC tragedy.
It simpy says what many people outsite the USA are thinking, that here are reasons for why America is almost always the target of terrorism, and the reasons are pretty clear, but unfortunately, the American people get their reality from CNN and the state.
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
I see your point, but.. while Christianity remains a powerful movement in the first world it is no longer a majority. The majority are capitalists, wage earning capitalists, it is the only system that they (and I) know. There are no alternatives unless you want to go to a socialst republic (which is really turned upsidedown fascism) or the Amish which is Luddism.
So, we are all capitalists even though we are feeding on the bottom. The Arab countries are different, not better nor worse, just different.
This time the fight is between Capitalism and The Future of Islam. Capitalism wins by inherent vigor and seduction. It is just too easy to buy a greasy Kentucky when you are late/tired/birthday/hungry. It is cheapish and you know what you are going to get and kids get a job until they get a real job (erhmm did I just say that?).
So, the Americans value money over god (mostly) and the Moslems want to be left to follow god without the intrusion of capitalism (read take over of the media and thoroughly intrusive advertising). They want their kids to be like them.
America will win this one in the short term. However an eye needs to be kept on the future.
Incidentally, do you think that TimeWarner will be selling "Fuck tha Police" in New York tomorrow. Maybe some rapper could make a song called "Fuck tha Fire Brigade 2".
The music/media/film corporations are deriding the heritage that has been earned by America through two world wars and billions of dollars to set the world on its feet again.
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
In addition, I really do wonder what people mean when they refer to Israeli "atrocities." In most cases, the incidents refered to are the shootings that have left so many young Palistinian men dead. These deaths have nearly brought me to tears, but not for their injustice - for their stupidity. Think about the circumstances under which so many of them have been killed. If you initiate or participate in a riot and assalt police officers, you will probably get shot. It doesn't matter what country you are in, or what religion you are, or what ethnic group you belong to, or how rightous your cause might be. The Police will eventually have no choice but to shoot you. It sucks, but that is how you have to maintain order. Honestly, if you throw rocks and bottles at someone with an assault rifle, you are practically begging them to shoot you. If they eventually do, that doesn't make you a martyr, no matter what you might have been screaming at the time. It makes you an idiot.
What makes me sad about these deaths is not just that Palistinian children are being killed. What makes me sad is how the Palistinian community glorifies their deaths, and exploits the sadness that anyone would feel about such an event. Parents, role models and leaders all but beg their children to go out to Israeli checkpoints and get shot. Their lives are being manipulated and expended by a self-serving and cynical leaders. This is not exactly what I would call an "Israeli attrocity."
The other complaint that one hears about the most is the demolition of Palistinian homes, and the construction of additional settlements. I've never been in support of either of these actions. I think it's wrong to take away someone's home, even if they didn't have a permit to build it. Furthermore, I think it's unwise to settle territory in the way that Israel has chosen to given present circumstances. These are both probably mistakes. But again, people seem to forget what we're talking about here. Israel is 20,330 square kilometers. The state of Vermont is 23,957 square kilometers. Areas like the Gaza Strip and the Golan Heights are comparable to in size to such places as Windhan county or Bellows Falls. Not to belittle the Great State of Vermont, but why on earth would people get so worked up about such tiny, insignificant dollops of land? It would be like going to war because the state wanted to move you from Bellows Falls to Brattleboro. It's utter foolishness.
It always seems to come down the the fact that there are all sorts of "holy sites" all over the place there. In my opinion, if these holy sites are really causing that much trouble, they ought to destroy them all, for all religions, and be done with it. No pile of rubble, no matter how mystical or aincent, is worth the blood that has been spilt. I'm sure that if Muhammad, Moses and Jesus all appeared as guests on CMM'sCrossfire, they would all agree that a holy site isn't worth a single human life. So, with respect to land and settlements, I beleive that Isreal has acted beligerantly and unwisely. But the Palestinians (or at least their leadership) has acted completly insane. When the whole country is small enough to drive across in a couple of hours, what does it matter if you live here or there? We should be hearing demands from the Palestinian side that sound more like this:
Instead, they are blowing themselves up on streetcorners and taking potshots at preschools. Not all of them, of course. But the critical thing is that this behavior is all but encouraged by their leadership, and was officially encouraged not too long ago. We have such people in the United States, but we go to lengths to discorage them from actually killing people, and when they do, we lock them up.I happen to think that a lot of the things done by Israel have been mistakes. There have been times that I've been ashamed to call myself a Jew on acount of what Israel was doing at the time. But the fact is, Israel offered a final and permanant peace to Arafat, and Arafat turned it down. Israel allowed the United States to twist its arm until it yeilded to just about every demand made by the PLO. But Arafat decided to hold out for a better deal. Parez knowlingly sacrificed his leadership of the nation in an attempt to make this peace, and Arafat must have known that this would be his last shot at such a sweet deal. Up until that point, I was on the side of the Palistinians. I felt that they had been wronged, and although they behaved very, very poorly, they ought to be copmensated. But to respond to a peace offering by starting a war, and to do so with the blood of their own children is to betray the very name of Peace.
Arafat and the Palestinians wanted a war, and Israel has merely obliged them. It is exactly the same situation as the rock-throwers and the soldiers, only with whole nations. Israel (the soldier) might not be the most enlightened in its opinion of the rock-thrower (the Palestinians), but will reluctantly shoot when forced to. It sucks, but that's how you defend a nation.
In spite of the suggestions and all the tests that I have made, I have not cavato a spider from the hole.
You, however, are using the greatest terrorist action in history to grind your well-worn axe against old media and take cheap shots at the president.
The last thing in the world we need now is pointless editorializing by the media--and believe me, I including you in that group in the loosest possible fashion--and definately not to advance personal agendas. This has to be a time for unity, not pathetic personal squabbles.
You should be ashamed of yourself. Normally, you are just a misinformed, unedited blowhard. Now you are despicable.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
- In Texas firebomb was thrown to islamic school and several shots were fired to islamic cultural centre. Local muslims are afraid that locals will attack any of them.
- In Chicago, arabian cultural centre was firebombed. Angry mob of approx. 300 people marched towards local mosceij yelling "USA, USA!" Police was able to turn them back.
- In Huntington, 75 years old drunken man tried to drive over palestinian woman. When he missed, he threatened to kill this woman, claiming that she "destroys his country."
- In Indiana, person in skimask shot towards a gas station with assault rifle. Gas station was run by Hassan Awhad, who was born in Yemen.
- Kuwaitian children recieved therapy in Washington, after their lives were threatened on their way to school. Persons had been yelling them things like "You should all die!"
Way to go, Usians! Really civilized...Road to Hell is paved with frozen door-to-door salesmen.On weekends many of the younger demons go ice-skating down it
Now that all of the knee jerkers are ready to flame me - NOTHING that our government has done, should result in a tragedy like this. Regardless of the US foreign policy, innocent civilians DO NOT deserve to die.
There's quite a few things about US policy itself that display these characteristics. It's OK for US foreign policy to:
These points are not the mindless ravings of a Muslim fanatic (whatever that means - all the Muslim guys I've ever known are really cool). I'm a white journalist who has lived through 15 years of terrorist war in Southern Africa and then fought against it in Northern Ireland - and I'm not just mindlessly sounding off. (I've also travelled widely in the US). All of my points are facts which can can be independently verified. But don't take my word for it - check them out. Don't rely on your own mainstream media which can't even bring itself to talk about how Bin Laden was funded by the CIA and the Taliban are a bastard creation of a US-sponsored agency in Pakistan. Go and find out just why these political problems in other parts of the world are the fault - in whole or in part - of the self interest of the United States of America.
Mantras seem to be the order of the day so here's mine:
In the eyes of some, US citizens are fair game as long as they continue to ignore their own government's foreign policy
Having correctly pointed out that US foreign policy has caused misery, suffering and death to millions elsewhere in the world, you seem horrified that a couple of those people are ready to give as good as they get.
--- Hot Shot City is particularly good.
Not only did the Palestinians in Nablus & elsewhere celebrate, they threatened an AP cameraman with death if the tape got out. This is who we're dealing with. Barbarians for whom diplomacy is as subtle as a bullet in the head. They don't want the truth to get out, they only want duplicitoius conduits like you to spout their doublethink. As they say, a lot of damage has been done, not just by the footage but by the actions of these monsters parading as diplomats. From a Washington Post article:
"Palestinian officials told an Associated Press video cameraman that tapes of the gleeful demonstrations in Nablus, a West Bank city about 40 miles north of here, could not be aired. Arafat's cabinet secretary, Ahmed Abdel Rahman, warned the Jerusalem office of the Associated Press that the Palestinian Authority could not "guarantee the life" of the cameraman if the footage was broadcast. Members of Fatah, the main faction of Arafat's Palestine Liberation Organization, issued statements holding the cameraman responsible for the tape.
But the public relations damage was done. Images of smiling demonstrators elsewhere were broadcast, horrifying Palestinian politicians who have pressed for a negotiated end to the conflict with Israel. "A lot of damage has been done," said Saeb Erekat, a Palestinian negotiator."
I am saying that to change our policies to STOP the worngdoing -- on its own -- would encourage more attacks of these kind. To attack but continue the wrong doing would do nothing to repair the hate many have for America.
But a combination of these two would work. Show the world that we will not accept terrorism (as they have shown they will not accept unjust American actions). Change our policies to be fair and just to every person on this planet. Stop giving people legitimate reasons to hate us while not bending to the fist of terror.
Let's face it, the political and religious issues that caused these bastards to commit this horrible act are extremely complex. There really are no easy answers. There's no clear enemy to retaliate against. There's no one reason why the terrorists did this.
It's clear that U.S. foreign policy, politically, ecomonically, and militarily is flawed in many ways. But I believe that our government really does try to do the right thing. But they are human, just like the terrorists, just like the people working in the World Trade Center.
The one thing that could have prevented this enormous tradgedy is proper implementation of security measures in the airline industry.
The airline industry has been criticized in the news over the past years for a myriad of things, delayed and cancelled flight, rudeness by personnel, lost luggage, and lax security. It's no secret to us, we've seen the 60 Minutes episodes. And it's no secret to the terrorists of the world.
This outrageous act might have been prevented had we continued the Sky Marshall program, eliminated carry-on luggage, had better training for flight crews, etc.
I say "might have been prevented" because I wasn't on the plane. I don't really know what happened. I have scenarios running through my head, and I'm sure you do too. Who knows?
Again the answers aren't so easy. Getting up on our soapboxes about U.S. policy being evil, or being stalwart patriots isn't really the answer is it? It's not so black and white. The U.S. does a lot of good in the world, but we also do a lot of bad.
Let's not forget history. Here's a couple of notions: Dresden, The Crusades.
Who's right? Who's to blame? It's not that simple.
The best use of our energy is to put into place procedures which make it more difficult for religious and political fanatics from carrying out their mad schemes. And since the spotlight is on the airline industry, let's start there, then move to the intelligence community, then foreign policy, etc.
And if you believe in prayer, say one for the poor victims of the WTC, and one for the insane, deluded maniacs that committed the act, and for the wisdom for the world to respond sensibly to a billion mistakes at a thousand levels.
Talk is cheap. Have we become that Oprahized that we need to FEEL good about everything ? We are called to action by the events. If we need a president to tell us that, then our enemy has already won.
... words mean things.
I agree with the above poster. The terrorists that hit the Pentagon flew over both the White House and the Capital Building. We have since learned that other cells were at work and that other planes were targets of hijacking. There are other details we're just now getting as well. Perhaps we should temper our commentaries until we know more of the facts (I'd say all, but we'll never learn it all).
Probably Clancy-esque spectulation on my part, I think the terrorists were trying to LURE Bush into a trap. Hoping he'd rush to this scene or that, putting himself in situations that are less than secure. Yes, we have big nasty fighter jets at Andrews, but that chopper is relatively slow as it lumbers onto the WH grounds.
As for everyone whining about Bush not looking presidential. First, I'm glad he was away from the emotional impact of seeing the WTC or the Pentagon. Last thing I want is any man with that much power to make a rash emotional descision.
I'm similarly relieved that he didn't say anything rash that would destroy the chances of building a coalition or paint us into a corner. Remember, the world is watching, and whether coldly read from a teleprompter, or delivered with all the hellfire and damnation of a black Baptist preacher
I'm also a bit disturbed by the complaints I read here. I can't believe that we don't have what it takes within ourselves to "get it up," that we need some cheerleading a face on TV. Meaning, I can't believe we're getting worked up over STYLE issues. I really don't give a fig how he looks, but I do care deeply as to the type of response he'll take.
Imagine the confusion that would have ensued if he was attacked, even unsuccessfully ? Or perhaps disabled by falling debris as he 'helped' the resuce effort. No, I'd rather deal with Bush than add the confusion of a political transition. And having lived in NYC, I would have rather had a Mayor alive in office to make calls, obtain resources, manage a crippled city, than one who's been impaled by a steel girder.
Could you imagine the confusion, with all the security and stuff that goes on, if the President did go to the WTC or Pentagon ? The distraction and possible obstruction to the men and women who were busy saving lives ?
I think ALL of us want to go to NYC and dig out rocks. But we're more effective doing our jobs. Sending money to the Red Cross. Paying taxes that will help fund the relief efforts. Giving blood. Praying. Encouraging our neighbor.
We each have different jobs to do. I hold up those who are in the thick as heros, men and women who do the work of God. But I also realize that heroism is not the call of everyone. Nor is it necessarily helpful that everyone, especially to the bonafide heros who need the 5th graders in Virginia making peanut butter and jelly sandwiches and sending them along with the nameless faces of Red Cross and Salvation Army workers.
Talk is cheap. Have we become that Oprahized that we need to FEEL good about everything ? We are called to action by the events. If we need a president to tell us that, then our enemy has already won.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
JonKatz said:
When things like this happen, TV, much more than the Net or the Web, reveals whether leaders rise or fall to the occasion. Mayor Guiliani of New York clearly rose to the tragedy. President Bush, sticking to his cautious sing-song monotone, fled to various bunkers and seemed to shrink throughout the day. Guiliani got bigger by the hour. Defying advice that he hide out until the shooting stopped, he rushed to the scene, was nearly killed, calmed the city down and took charge of the clean-up and rescue. Bush got on his best suit and stuck to the prompter. At least that was the image that TV brought of us of these two very different leaders.
Oh, come one. If the Mayor of New York is killed in a secondary attack, the country is still stable. Yes, he is the mayor of the largest city in the country, but his death would have had nearly no effect on our country. He would have been a statistic.
If the president is killed, then it's a whole other story. Sequestering him away from the public eye for about 5 hours while we determined if the attacks were even over was prudent and handled perfectly.
Grow up.
"George hid" is all you can say? Our country performed nearly flawlessly in how we initially reacted to the attacks. That's why the death toll is 10% of what I originally feared. Every death is a tragedy, yes, but imagine the numbers if we had dragged our feet at all.
- Hans
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals... except the weasel. -
Guilianni almost had is "brass ones" handed to him by his rash actions. Imagine the confusion in NYC if he'd been injured or worse. Throughout the history of warfare, officers and leaders were prized over other kills because of the confusion that occurs after their loss.
Yes, Bush has a great team, but transitions are messy and time consuming. I mean, do I need to see an image of Cheney on AF1 with one hand on the Bible and the other clutching his chest as he's being sworn in ?
NYC is a tough place, but imagine the political infighting that would have gummed the workes had Guilianni taken a mortal hit ?
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
Yes. It did. I don't think that the German people would, today, tolerate someone like Hitler, or his policies.
Best Slashdot Co
I have no clue about the CNN footage, but in Copenhagen, Denmark, there were in fact palestinians celebrating (and the Danish PM said: "It is distasteful, unacceptable and inhuman").
As Pheobe from friends says: "I don't want to be all judgemental, but it's wrong. Sick and wrong".
-Kraft
Live and let live
When was the last time Americans were dancing in the streets because some Palestinian or Iraqi CIVILIANS were killed?
Didn't you ever see the footage of the celebrations that happened in several places across the US when we were bombing Baghdad during the Gulf War? You can be pretty sure there were civilian casualties then...
In the late 80's, a cartoonist named Steven Johnson did some peices for the Sacremento Bee. Those (and a lot of others) were collected in a book called "Public Therapy Buses". One cartoon, adressed the issue of hijacking and aircraft bombing.
The plane towed a flying wing holding the luggage. The passengers had to remove all clothing, and don pocketless (paper?) clothing.
-dp-
Organizer:New England Rubbish Deconstruction Society;The NERDS,first US team in the UK Scrapheap Challenge/Junkyard Wars
Big stories like this now are covered two ways -- online and off. The former draws millions to websites like CNN's and USA Today's, and new kind of sites like this one. Bloggers and others put up sites so that people could describe what was happening in their own words. People in apartment complexes and news sites posted accounts, and looked for relatives and housing.
In all honesty, I think making a distinction between big media coverage and blog-type coverage is a mistake. They both ran the same info for the most part. And usually the blog items, with a few exceptions, were postings of things heard on TV or radio. Were the blogs immune to the misinformation and hype thrown around on TV? No. They repeated the same false information (there's a fifth plane, state deparment car bomb, etc). Metafilter.com even ran a scare headline about a "Small, unidentified plane circling Manhattan," which turned out to be a FEMA plane. Dave Winer at scripting.com started banging on the war drum right away.
Yes, I appreciated the weblog coverage, but it was more because other news sites were unreachable. I found out most of my information from slashdot and scripting.com, but that does not mean I find those sources to be better than others.
I'd hope the president looks like a deer in the headlights. We don't know enough to make a response. Who did it? Was it underlings acting outside of the leaders controll, or the leaders wishes? Did foreign goverments aid in this or not?
We don't have answers and people are demanding them. What can the president do, we need to be level headed about this without destorying the emotion of the event. Not an easy task, if it is even possibal.
I'm with Katz. Show support - sure. Have all of Congress hold a sing along for the cameras, that's just lame. Show endless carnage on TV followed by feel-good warnings about "What to tell the children..." What is this make-news about?
What's this national prayer coverage, with Senators going on at great length about Jeremiah? I'm pretty sure everyone believes God is on their side and that they're justified.
Really- the media channels decided that whether they had anything to say or not they are going to stay on the air 24-7. Did they forget that they are in the business of news? I for one am tiring of being told just exactly how and when I have to experience some cathartic reaction.
They haven't even done a good job of getting their own facts straight in a foaming effort scoop one another. It's been an endless stream of interruptions to their interruptions followed by corrections and counterclaims.
And now the first polls are out. 90% of people want immediate violent force applied pretty much anywhere. That's kind of like asking a rape victim's father the day after if he wants to kill the rapists whole family.
A chorus of talking heads screaming "Nuke the ragheads!!!" "Crush terrorism everywhere!!!"
Everywhere? Gee I really can't see O'Reilly advocating we carpet bomb Belfast or assassinate the IRA leadership.
So in the end it's NOT eradicate terrorism everywhere. It's eradicate terrorism OVER THERE. and even that it's eradicate terrorism over there if they don't sell oil to us, have a really big mechanized army or have missiles or a strong cultural bond with people over here.
Let's get through this paroxym and work toward keeping our citizens and the citizens of our allies safe.
Are you really asking why millions around the world hate America? Isn't it plain and clear?
American intervenes when it is in her interest (Iraq - oil) but not when it's not (Ruanda). The US therefore have morally no leg to stand on in the world community, but they keep boasting that they are the beacon of hope for freedom on human rights in the world. Then they happily spit in the face of the world by not paying UN dues, even though they are richer than anybody else. They use more of the world's resources than anybody else per capita, and when it is suggested that that may endanger the future, they laugh it off and ignore international treaties. The world is almost uninamously in agreement that the Israeli treatment of the Palestinians should be condemned, but the US uses its veto power (why do they deserve veto power anyway?) to stop all action in that direction. Poor countries are desparately trying to protect their fragile economies from foreign competition, but the US insists that even the weakest immediately join the free trade world economic order and compete on equal terms with her own sophisticated industry. The US hoard intellectual property and then complains when poor countries start to manufacture Aids drugs which are otherwise unaffordable.
Is it really that hard to understand?
> Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans
Presumably he's talking about the Marshall Plan. According to the Marshall Foundation figures, the greatest beneficiary by far were the UK, contrary to what this guy claims. This does not take into consideration the Lend Lease program, which funnelled many more material resources into the UK, much of which never made its way back to the US. Many economists and historians will tell you that is was more Germany's economic recovery than anything else that drove European recovery during the decades after the war. Of course, admitting that loudly and publicly would create somewhat of a moral dilemma, since Germany's image as the eternal bad guy would be tarnished.
> None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its Remaining debts to the United States.
Again, not entirely true. At least Germany had fully repaid its debts during the '50s. For an interesting assessment of the Marshall Plan, read this article. Also, lest you think the Marshall Plan was a purely altruistic gesture, check this tidbit over at the Library Of Congress.
> Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed
> Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? [...]
> Why do all the International lines Except Russia fly American Planes?
?? Ok, this is obvious trolling, but what the heck. I guess he hasn't heard of Airbus, which has recently had higher sales than Boeing. He might also want to check with some British and French aircraft manufacturers and see how they felt about being essentially strong-armed out of the market by the US during the decades following the war.
And regarding Boeing's constant whining about the EU's cash subsidies to Airbus, they might want to pause and consider where they'd be without the mega-juicy military contracts of WWII. For well over a decade after the war, Boeing civilian aircraft were mere permutations of their warplane parts bins.
> You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy,
> and you find men on the moon
Uh, he might want to visit the Marshall Space Center in Huntsville, AL, and read some of the last names on the exhibits. Trivial details, I know.
> When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down Through age, it was the
> Americans who rebuilt them.
Must have been some wet dream he had, no other explanation.
> I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of Other people in trouble. Can
> you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble?
Well, that might have something to do with the metaphorical smirk on the US' face if offered "help": "Thanks, but you better keep it. You might need it more than us."
These are mere corrections of this guy's "facts" and in no way meant to denigrate the USA's contributions to the world. There is no denying that the world would be a lesser place without their democratic strength and stability over the last century.
Interesting how all the news is concerned with is "catching the bad guys" and war war war. How about stopping the problem at its source, and stop pissing off nations in the middle east. Trade embargoes, puppet governments to protect oil interests, and an overall careless attitude for the last 30 years is what got the WTC blown up. I'm certain the US's embargoes have killed more innocent people than this one-time attack. Of course CNN wont discuss this, because they trying to brainwash you into hating arabs, so when the time comes to go to war and kill innocent people you'll be cheering in the streets just like those Palestians were yesterday. But remember, WE are the GOOD guys.
Why stick up for big business?
The BBC world service covered this story a lot though I don't know how much N.Am. media did. I recall one small story about it on cbc.ca, but mostly I heard about it on the radio. Every day in fact. The Afghan judge trying their cases was apparently openly calling for a harsh sentence before the trial! Disturbing to say the least, well beyond the gut "westerners languishing in third world jail" emotional response one gets. Most Afghans would probably let them go free if they could, but their gov't is of a different mind. In fact, I suspect they probably *were* prosyletising (sp?) and thus are in fact guilty under current Afghan law. A civilized gov't would kick them out - now alas they share an unfair fate with the Afghan people...
Freedom: "I won't!"
I think 0.5 meters of compacted matter per story is probably an overestimate. Also consider that a significant amount of matter scattered laterally when it approached ground level; the current rescue efforts aren't at the base of the former towers, but in the substantial rubble field that now surrounds the plaza.
> the radio editorial by Gordon Sinclair was given early in the 1970's.
Fair enough, except that the poster shouldn't have submitted it as some sort of imminently relevant article in that case.
As do I, but my first thought was that once it's known, or even suspected that a plane has been hijacked, it would be nice to be able to override the plane's manual controls from the ground and bring the people down to safety. Of course, like I said, that's one additional place tha would need very tight security so that hijackers couldn't take over a control room and do their evil there.
I'm the big fish in the big pond bitch.