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More WTC News
Current WTC happenings: The FBI is searching ISPs with FISA warrants. Architects and civil engineers are starting to speculate on why the towers collapsed. Pictures: NASA, a powerful photoessay, newspaper headlines. Current investigation news: LA Times, NY Times, CNN. They're finally starting to mention casualty figures. Finally, bjb writes: "It isn't the hollywood blockbuster of a story, but I'm a daily reader of Slashdot, and I was on the 38th floor of the WTC 1 building when the first plane hit. Oh, and I was reading Slashdot at the time. You can read about my experience here. It was originally an email that I sent out to friends and family, but I was asked by NPR's Talk of the Nation to make it a web page."
Apparently ISP's are allowing the installation of Carnivore. They say it's only for a few days, but we'll see how long that claim holds up...
Seen any BadMarketing lately?
The /. group is a collection of varied skills and talents. One would think that with the resources and capabilities we all have access to, what kind of information can we contribute. Sure privacy and security issues are important, but if I had the ability to retrieve any info to help, I would.
Just a thought---
I am me...I think
http://www.spaceimaging.com/newsroom/attack_galler y.htm
we feel with you.
There is another good article on the collapse at NewScientist.com
I was very much impressed with the way the buildings withstood that kind of impact long enough for some people to escape. The loss of life if they had gone immediately, or had toppled sideways just doesn't bear thinking about.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
They are in need of computers, supplies and human techs. If you can please help. Some of us can't donate blood. But we can donate our extra computers and supplies.
r y/ 0,23008,3347294,00.html
http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/sto
---
eeww, I'll have a crab juice.
Structural steel starts to melt at 800 degrees
F. Fires from jet fuel raise temperatures to
around 1500 degrees F. It was in the Sept. 12
issue of The Wall Street Journal now currently
available without registration or subscription
at:
The Wall Street Journal
I've posted a centralized information site. PLEASE DO NOT SLASHDOT THIS SITE! Pass along the web address to people who need it. PLEASE don't just browse around the site. I'm not sure if the site could handle a slashdot-size load. Again... PLEASE visit the site sparingly. The site is www.worldtradeaftermath.com. Please pass the address on to those who need it. Thank you.
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
"They that would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
As much as I repect the wisdom of our founding fathers, I respectfully submit that spouting 200 year old quotes about liberty is not helpful or applicable in the least.
Goofy, Geeky Gifts and More!
techtv is reporting that the Red Cross needs tech donations
Original posts here and here
if you read brian's story, you'll see that he mentions that the 'emergency staircase' was only two persons wide. it took him (a reasonably fit man, i'll assume) 20 minutes to descend from the 38th floor, and this was by leaving IMMEDIATELY after the crash. this was also mostly before smoke, water, and darkness took over the staircases (according to other accounts).
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
They were designed to survive a "once in a century storm", something like Hurricane Andrew. They naturally sway several feet in strong winds.
h tml
Buildings are simply not constructed to survive being slammed into by a 400,000 pound jet going 300+ miles per hour. Especially ones that are 20+ years old.
Jet specs are at: http://www.boeing.com/commercial/767-300/product.
46. The Hobo smiles, his eyes glaze over, and he burps. "Beware the man who has lived longer than the Wasteland."
Apparently, for the vast majority of buildings in the USA, an impact by an aircraft, similar to what happened, would take them down almost instantly. The construction of these buildings saved lives.
There are many articles in New Scientist Magazine on many related subjects to this event, including one that discusses the buildings in some detail.
- - -
Radio Free Nation
an alternate news site using Slash Code
"If You have a Story, We have a Soap Box"
- - -
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Last night on the news I heard the estimate of up to 20,000 dead in this attack. People were comparing this to the attack on Pearl Harbor, with a mere fraction of that many dead. People, if this count turns out to be accurate, this isn't anything like Pearl Harbor, except metaphorically, it is on line with the ENTIRE Vietnam War. The number of projected causualties is on par with the total number of US causualties throughout that conflict 30+ years ago.
In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
This was written by Gordon Sinclair in 1973 at the end of the Vietnam Conflict.
You can read about it at this site, including the aftereffects of what it meant to his career - both good and bad. There's also a RealAudio copy of the recording he did of this, which is backed up by 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic'.
Brazil has decided you're cute.
As everyone knows by know, Morgan Stanley Dean Whitter occupied roughly 10% of the WTC, with some 3500 employees. There's a good article on Yahoo this morning about their offsite back strategy, and how it enabled them to start working again almost immediately.
The Post has extensive coverage of the Pentagon operations.
Best Slashdot Co
Okay, I know it's terrible, but when I first read this story I thought that the web hosting credit - for Bombora Trading - was supposed to be some kind of bad joke. Like, "Hey, was that a bomb, or a trade center?" Ugh.
It's funny how one's sense of humor desperately tries to reassert itself after something like this.
Where is the map detailing which buildings have fallen, which are damaged/unstable, which are cordoned off, and basic information about each? And to a lesser extent where is the map showing street closings, pedestrian access, mta access, civilian auto access? Not one agency has provided such maps. If anyone can point me to a map with Hagstrom or better details it would be appreciated. AA
maybe we should stop being so dependent upon middle east oil instead, so when we destroy the taliban, it will be for better reasons than our own financial interest to pollute our own environment.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Ask why they stood! The fact that any building was capable of taking a direct impact from a jetliner with a full load of fuel and then stand for over an hour (and allow lots of people to get out) is remarkable! We need to make sure we keep building them like that.
Trying to build skyscrapers aircraft-proof isn't feasible, I don't think. But building them capable of resisting that kind of trauma for at least a little while is.
CNN and other news sites report that the FBI searched the Florida house belonging to two brothers believed to have played a part in the events of 9/11/01. A search on Google for one of the brothers - Ameer Bukhari - shows that he died exactly one year before on 9/11/00 in a plane crash.
I posted that info to various places, and in the time its taken me to type this far into my message, CNN has changed their story - now saying that FBI believe that one of the brother may have died before Tuesday.
Either Carnivore is good, or the new media have just learned about Google.
First, what did the flight control know? It seems very strange that the only information we have from the hijacked planes came from the passangers' cellphones. Didn't the pilots have a permanent radio connection to the flight control? I thought that in cases like these they are supposed to inform flight control as a first thing. And if they did, how come that the first confirmation that the planes were hijacked came hours later? If the police new in time, they could have started evacuation immediately and saved many lives.
Second, I notice a strange discrepancy between the courses of action advocated on Slashdot and other "grassroots" forums and what I hear on TV. I'm not talking about "nuke them" folks. I'm talking about calls for the internationalization of the efforts. Creating the grand anti-terrorism coalitions. Multilateralism. That stupid chapter 5 invocation. I mean, this course of action is the ONLY one advocated by every single politician I've seen on TV, and it doesn't seem so obviously superior to the one mostly advocated on Slashdot: Punish the responsible (and some innocent too) and then DISENGAGE from the trouble areas, especially the Middle East, that's how I would spell it.
Any answers? I'd really like to know.
I'm really sorry, but the right verb is not "to appease", it is "to fund". Several independent sources that I've been reading are pointing out that the CIA *funded* Osama Bin Laden, years ago, when he was anti-Communist. Only, after the Gulf War he turned against the US, in what is apparently called in CIA terms, a "blowback". I *do* hope the US learns from this the right way... Stop funding pro-US terrorists would be a good start.
-- Any sufficiently advanced level of incompetence is indistinguishable from malice
This is only partly correct. Most of the Middle Eastern oil wells were actually initially exploited by the British, which is also evident from the fact that most of the area was either British protectorate or heavily influenced by the British.
The problem is that it has not and never been proved that they are actually guilty of this.
If you want to save the principles of Western civilization, how about adhering to them in the first place? Like, not bombing someone out of existence because he said he didn't like you and someone else killed a couple of thousand people in your country?
With reactions like this, you can bet that:
BTW As far as Syria is concerned, Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad has recently offered support to the US in combatting international terrorism. Now what, nuke 'em?
The problem is that America doesn't know what to do now. Throwing bombs around is probably not the best thing to do just because nobody can think of an alternative.
There is absolutely no reason to panic.
The most terrible thing about terrorism is that it targets totally innocent civilians; what you propose is that the United States stoop to the same level.
Danny.
I have written over 900 book reviews
http://www.rotten.com/news/articles/coup-cover-300 .jpg
This is not a joke. It appeared in the current issue of Wired magazine, which was on newsstands before this all happened. I guess it's just one of those odd coincidences.
dinner: it's what's for beer
is to once again terrorize our own citizens. from anti-communist witch-hunts to asian-american ww2 camps to the generally accepted anti-Arab anti-Islamic trends of America for more than a decade, we still have a lot to learn, it seems.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
I think I can make a good guess about why they collapsed....
...the airplanes hitting them?
Got Rhinos?
chmod a+x /bin/laden
dinner: it's what's for beer
maybe you should check YOUR facts. afghanistan is absolutely a central player in oil production, this is why multi-billion dollar corporations are building oil pipelines across it. maybe afghanistan does NOT produce oil (actually their NUMBER ONE export is HEROIN, much of which ends up in the streets of NYC) but they are definitely a player in transport and stability in the region. not to mention my generalization was directed at the entire middle east, not afghanistan...
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
My heart is lifted by the care and the concern shown by the /. community. But as we are nerds in seek of news, I would like to see us come up with some possible solutions. Here's mine:
... it has my face on it ... my baggage tags, again, with my face on it.
... and with checks against known terrorist lists (only) ... may be enough to stop a wide-scale terrorist attack like the one we saw.
Back in 1995, I was the lead programmer for INSPass, the INS Passenger Accelerated Service System. Essentially, an individual trades the convenience of getting through customs for giving up their hand geometry on a card that is verified at a kiosk.
Now I read that there are going to be long lines at the airport. A wonderful place for a repeat of the terrorist disasters in Rome and Athens back in the mid-80's. And when it gets really, really busy, an excellent place for a bad guy to get waived through the lined on a frustrating day or by an airline employee who doesn't know what a fake driver's license looks like.
What I would like to see is some sort of voluntary program, offered by either the FAA or the airlines themselves where smart cards are issued. On them, is my face. On the chip, my fingerprint and othe biographic information. I sign up some other time than a day I'm travelling. I agree to have my information checked against known terrorists lists (only)
When I go the airport, I go to a kiosk where I hold the card up to my face to an attendant, who watches me I insert the card and verify my fingerprint, when I'm issued a ticket
No, this is not foolproof. And some will still want to go through the old-fashioned line. And that's fine. But if enough people paticipate, it will take the work load off of those having to do identification the old fashioned way
I hate giving up personal freedoms. But here is one case I'm willing to make an exception.
healyourchurchwebsite.com - WWJB?
I found this story pretty moving. A gossip columnist comments on how meaningless all the stuff she's built her career on is in the grand scheme of things. Talks about the future of celebrity and entertainment.
--
Mod up a post Rob doesn't like and you'll never mod again
My boyfriend is a professional structural engineer who has done a lot of work on major LA buildings. He's currently attending Berkeley for a masters in Structural Engineering and, in chatting with his professors, came to this (paraphrased):
1) Yes, the buildings did withstand the impact of the airplanes. They didn't fall immediately, did they?
2) Buildings are built to a certain fire code, in that the building won't completely catch on fire and collapse for a certain length of time (usu 1hr?). The escape routes are located generally in the four corners. Since the plane took out one of them, this means that the required escape time is now 2+ hours.
3) Jet fuel burns with a much higher temperature than normal fuel.
4) Steel expands and crystalizes under extreme heat. Since the plane(s) hit at a "centre"-ish spot, the steel tried to expand up and down, but since the steel in the "up" and "down" weren't hot and wouldn't move, the steel in the "centre" buckled.
5) Since jetfuel burns hotter, step 4 happened faster and also reduced the "buckle" time by a certain amount - when used along with the increased escape time required, means that considerably fewer people would be able to escape.
6) Since the steel buckled, the upper floors now come crashing down on to the floor immediately below. Being as that floor is not suited to hold X number of upper floors MOVING rapidly at it, it collapsed and repeat until bottom.
Therefore, it was the fire that made the buildings collapse, not the impact of the planes.
-mrsmalkav
The way I read the story of UAL Flight 93, passengers were about to regain control of the plane, and the last terrorist nosedived into a hill. A few people with small knives can't expect to control a planeload of passengers, if the passengers don't think cooperation will lead to survival.
Sure it is. Events like this open up the potential for society to give up liberties for perceived safety which probably isn't all that real. I for one worry about the future of our liberties in teh name of 'preventing another WTC'
I submit that these bastards could STILL get the weapons on board even with all the changes. No curb side checkin? LIke thats gonna make a DIFFERENCE? Its SO simple to make a weapon - just as a prisoner. Consider this:
Shaving kit - inside, one normal razor that uses a double edged blade. Blade installed, no spares. Elsewhere in your bag, a plastic or wooden handle of some kind with slot for blade, by itself or with other stuff that looks innocent. Maybe a little super glue. GO to a stall in a terminal bathroom. Take blade, insert in handle, glue in place. Slit someones throat when necessary and take over whatever vessel you're on. Think about it - you can probably come up with plenty on your own. Thats just one way and there are plenty others. These guys planned this for MONTHs as the reports of flight training indicate. You wouldn't even NEED to bring weapons with you - maybe one of your pals works IN THE TERMINAL past the checkpoints and cna give you a weapon of some kind. Banning plastic knives? OK - thats gonna help!
Face it folks - no matter WHAT happens, the only thing that could prevent something like this is sky marshals on EVERY flight in civilian clothes. And even then, they may not be able to overpower 5 guys with weapons (since shooting guns in the air is er, not a great idea)
So in short, I think our forefathers wisdom IS applicable and helpful to remind folks that we may be fooled into giving up liberties for supposed security that doesn't really exist
Top Most Bizarre/Disturbing Error Messages
Or are we just going to target the Arab
terrorist organizations?
Last night I saw a survivor interview that the guy ended with the statement, almost in tears, "Why can't you keep your stupid wars over there?" These events show that the war was NEVER just "over there". But if it's going to be fought with American casualties, then by God I want it fought in some desert in the middle of nowhere instead of downtown Manhattan. We have conquered dozens of nations, installed rational govenments and come home against far more organized opponents than this. We can do it again, and should. Islamic fundamentalism is just as dangerous to the world as National Socialism (Nazi) ever was. FORGET THE MISSILE DEFENSE SHIELD - WE HAVE GOT TO STOP THESE GUYS COLD ***NOW*** BEFORE THEY GET NUKES. If we don't, then in ten or twenty years instaed of four jetliners it's going to be FOUR CRATERS where San Francisco, Boston, Miami and Chicago used to be, delivered by boats smuggling plutonium instead of cocaine. Yes, I know we don't have a target today and we must not go off half cocked. But when we get a target, a plan and resources ready, we must GO!
For those of you that are getting the nostradamus quotes in your email, point them here. Yep, its a fake.
Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
the only excuse for civilian targets to be attacked is when your own civilians are dying by the hundred thousands and everything you have ever known tells you that the US is directly responsible. true or not, this is what they believe.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
An architect on CNN suggested that the towers survived the impacts almost intact, and that the fires inside resulted in the steel necessary to hold up a concrete structure of that size melted.
Without reinforcement, what you have is 110 stories of compacted gravel and cement dust. The architect was saying that he was amazed and impressed the structures survived as long as they did.
Let us assume that he is correct in his assessment. This could spell the end of the use of reinforced concrete as the sole supporting component. Not just because of the risk of any future tragedies of this kind, but because of more "mundane" risks. The architect was quoted as saying that an LA hotel fire, some years back, nearly caused catastrophic failure of the strucure, for the same reason.
In short, as I see it, architectures have got to look for an interlocking structure that can survive not only the external environment, but any internal environment. If a hotel can turn to dust, any time someone sets their frying-pan on fire, we have a major problem.
Concrete is popular, because it's cheap, fast to put up, and easy to mould to any shape. Accepting that that is going to be the primary material for some time, that leaves only one option. There's got to be a skeletal structure that the steel can be hooked onto, which can survive "extreme" conditions.
The idea here is that if any given segment fails, it cannot cause a catastrophic failure throughout the structure. It's limited. Compartmentalized. Even if the entire structure does eventually disintegrate, it would be slowed. You wouldn't go from 110 to 3 in 10 seconds or less. Sure, you're still going to have casualties. There is only one way to avoid that, and it's WAY too expensive to imagine anyone contemplating it. However, even if you could only slow the collapse down to one floor a minute, you could get one hell of a lot more people out.
Ok, ok, the most expensive solution possible - build your concrete structure as a mould, not as the structure you're going to use. Pour in molton rock, slowly, and let it cool. The ideal here would be to have the entire building as one giant geode. One huge crystal, forming in the hollow.
Crystalline structures are remarkably resiliant against any impact, other than along crystal lines. Because rock melts at very high temperatures, you can probably find something that simply wouldn't melt, even in the conditions we all saw on TV on tuesday.
One single, solid entity. No joins or connections to break, no weak-points to fail. THAT is the only type of structure that could survive such a devastating attack. But, like I said, nobody is going to build it. The sheer expense, difficulty and danger of manipulating that kind of volume of viscous, molten rock, ensuring that no air bubbles remained, cooling it slowly enough to solidify correctly - it's not beyond humanity, technically, but it's WAY beyond anything that humanity would ever wish to achieve.
What will happen is, should the towers ever be rebuilt, they'll be slightly strengthened, probably better disability access will exist, but the structure will fundamentally be the same. Why? Because, when you balance the cost against the risks, that is the only cost-effective structure at that kind of height, that you can build. Nothing else meets ALL requirements, even if other solutions would be superior in one or two of them.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
There is an interesting Ny Times article which describes a reporter's interviews with Afghanistan People.
[A] 25-year-old constable sat on the floor beneath a single dangling light bulb. His name was Muhammad Anwar. He had heard something about the attack in America but he had no idea how many were killed or what cities were involved. Indeed, it seemed unlikely that he had ever heard of New York.
"Attacks like these are not a good thing because Muslims live all over the world and Muslims may have been killed," Mr. Anwar said hesitantly. By his reckoning, Americans were enemies of Afghanistan, as were Jews and Christians. He thought about this a bit more and retracted it partially. "There must have been all kinds of people in the building, not just bad Jews but good Jews, not just bad Christians but good ones." He remembered something he had learned in his madrassa, or religious school. "It is un-Islamic to kill innocent people," he said.
Gordon Sinclair died in 1984. Those comments you attached were spoken in 1973, in comment on Vietnam.
u ni que/am_text.html for the full text and story.
It has been altered as well.
http://www.rcc.ryerson.ca/schools/rta/ccf/news/
The irony of posting the poem that Timothy McVeigh quoted before his execution is not lost on me. I'll say it again: I'm just glad he's not alive to see these events.
Doubtful. The structure of the lower floors would actually be stronger, because of the need to support more weight. And, the building was basically constructed like a giant tube, and the undamaged outer columns would have acted to keep the building from swaying too much.
I suspect that if it hadn't been for the massive fuel load, the buildings would still be standing.
...phil
"For a list of the ways which technology has failed to improve our quality of life, press 3."
Now that planes have been used themselves as weapons, and the passengers with them, I doubt there will be a high-jacking where they're aren't people like Glick and Barret, who are among the few passangers who apparently made sure that flight 93 crashed in PA woods, and not a national landmark.
The sentiment has been repeated over and over these past two days: "If I fall, the guy behind me will get him."
I hope that if such a day ever comes for me, I can get over my imminent death fast enough to do some good.
Nothing is more dangerous than someone who thinks they have nothing to lose.
Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms should be the name of a store, not a government agency.
Logically this would make sense, but religious fanaticism is not based on logic but something more like brainwashing and indoctrination.
Remember these terrorists committed their acts in the belief they were doing the right thing. Even though there is no religion that I know of that could possibly condone such barbarism - this is not about religion, religion is a victim, along with countless innocent people. In that regard, there would be no "toppled by their own people" since these fundamentalists would rather die for their beliefs/brainwash.
A conventional war in Afganistan would be very costly. Remember the invincible Russian army was decimated. The problem is that there isn't a visible standing army, but a guerilla army that hides in the towns and cities. To push for victory in this theatre would involve levelling every village and town and leave nothing standing, which would involve thousands more innocent victims.
There isn't an easy answer, but a decision must be made. Why is US/Nato nuking/destruction all of Afganistan better that Tuesday's actions? To me it is still genocide.
Concentrate on eliminating all sources of indoctrination, remove the tools for brainwashing and intolerance - remember that the freedom of choice ends when the actions are criminal, fundamentalists behind this attack have abrogated their rights. Root out the organisations responsible. There is no quick solution, only a path that needs to be travelled. Once everyone on the planet has the freedom to choose their destiny can the barricades these terrorists have created be broken down.
you are right, the region is far too unstable NOW. but companies are chomping at the bit for this. part of the US funding of the Taliban was to create stability by helping the Taliban eliminate rivals. way to go. this is what happens when the people are not given the choice of what to do, powerful corporate interests dictate the actions of american foreign policy and will presumably continue to do so because no one realy seems to give a damn, even after all this.
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Hi there. I'm sure many peple won't read this because it was posted so late in this discussion, but I thought you might like a quick word from some of the ER's I've been in today down here. (Columbia, NYU, and Vincent's). Tragically, everyone is really just standing around waiting for live people to come in, and there seems to be a general lack of this. Every now and then a fire fighter comes in, but is generally stable at this stage - likely incidental damage.
Yesterday, one of the firemen was brought in - in his mid fourties, I would suppose. He had a brother and 3 sons who were all firefighters; one of the latter was not accounted for all day yesterday. He himself had gotten caught in the first collapse, had gotten out and went in the second building and was then caught in that collapse and received some blows of debris into his back, for which he was being treated. It's that kind of bravery from the very salt of the earth which makes me so proud to be an American. God bless to all. K
The most important responsibility of government is to protect the lives, liberty, and property of its citizens. Our government has failed in this regard.
"Our government" has failed in this regard because the primary responsibility of people acting under the guise of government is to insure the continued existence of government (to make sure they still have a job, are still important, and still have control over 'the population'). You can see this in their news conferences - to paraphrase "I want to let everyone know that the Federal Government still exists and is still working, and is doing important stuff". Nevermind that the actions of those acting under the guise of government were likely the primary instigator of these attacks, as you point out - remember that bin Laden got his start with the CIA (MSNBC article), and our 'government' chooses sides often enough in worldwide conflicts to royally piss off people who get the bad end of the boom stick.
Many thanks to whoever it was that posted Harry Browne's "When Will We Learn?" article on slashdot yesterday.. In case you missed it, here's the first section:
>>>
The terrorist attacks against America comprise a horrible tragedy. But they shouldn't be a surprise.
It is well known that in war, the first casualty is truth ? that during any war truth is forsaken for propaganda. But sanity was a prior casualty: it was the loss of sanity that led to war in the first place.
Our foreign policy has been insane for decades. It was only a matter of time until Americans would have to suffer personally for it. It is a terrible tragedy of life that the innocent so often have to suffer for the sins of the guilty.
When will we learn that we can't allow our politicians to bully the world without someone bullying back eventually?
President Bush has authorized continued bombing of innocent people in Iraq. President Clinton bombed innocent people in the Sudan, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Serbia. President Bush Senior invaded Iraq and Panama. President Reagan bombed innocent people in Libya and invaded Grenada. And on and on it goes.
Did we think the people who lost their families and friends and property in all that destruction would love America for what happened?
When will we learn that violence always begets violence?
<<<
What 'America' must do now is stop the insanity, stop whipping out it's proverbial dick and beating people with it, even if some believe 'it's in their best interest'. Mind your own business, and there'll be less animosity towards you in the world.
Learn the rules so you know how to break them properly.
www.teslabox.com
On the other side it does not matter. Because, if it would turn out to be a WW3, some contries will ally with "non-US" side. And those may include france, russia, china, japan, germany, etc.
If it will become a WW3, there is no way to stop the nukes. It will never be one-sided. Even if you "flatten" your enemies, a few hundred of their children will "flatten" US in no more than 20 years.
It's already mentioned many times, but I fear like Einstein that the WW4 will be done with stones.
You cannot use diplomacy or negotiation with the forces allied against us because they have never used or responded to these mechanisms before. These forces understand what they implement - targetted destruction.
Its amazing how insipid most of the postings have been, but in the long run we are simply going to have to relearn that our safety and way of life is paid for and protected by blood, although there is probably no hope for the incessant mental masturbators posting their anthems of weakness on /.
There are several stories around about the terrorist attacks, what the net has to do with the trail for clues, and what we're looking at in the future. To start, news.com has a story about searches conducted at ISP's. Earthlink was reportedly served with an FISA warrant, which an Earthlink representative called "equivalent to a wiretap." The only people allowed to request an FISA warrant are the directors of the CIA and FBI, and the secretaries of state and defense. All but one of the 7,539 FISA warrant applications since 1978 have been approved. According to the ACLU, not one instance can be found where the target of a FISA warrant was allowed to review the initial warrant application, as it is granted by a secret panel of seven federal judges. Msnbc has more information about the FBI and its searches, with AOL, Yahoo, and Earthlink confirming that they've been cooperating, and Microsoft only saying they "regularly work with law enforcement." Wired has more detail about "a major network service provider" saying that the FBI showed up on Tuesday "with a couple of Carnivores, requesting permission to place them in our core, along with offers to actually pay for circuits and costs." The most troubling quote, from the same anonymous source, is "I know that they are getting a lot of 'OKs' because they made it a point to mention that they would only be covering our core for a few days, while their 'main boxes were being set up at the Tier 1 carriers' -- scary." An anonymous engineer at Hotmail indicated they "are cooperating with their expedited requests for information about a few specific accounts." Former Labor Secretary Robert Reich made a commentary (RealAudio only) on last night's Marketplace on NPR about terrorism and the future of privacy. He closes with a few chilling sentences. "To gain back more of our security, we will give up more of our privacy. We'll do it gladly, if that's the price we have to pay to counter terror. The willing loss of our privacy is likely to be one of the major consequences of the horror that occured September 11th, 2001."
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
Aside from letting the military take care of military matters, I'll tell you what we should do.
We should mow our lawns. We should go out to eat. We should sit on the porch with a beer. We should travel across the country. When the planes are back in the air, we should fly somewhere.
The terrorists don't have any real hope of getting the U.S. to say "Sorry. We'll stop doing the things that make you angry." They have no defined goal toward which they are working. They have a vague goal of defeating us. Because of this, they know they won't gain anything substantial by performing these acts.
The one thing they can accomplish, is to get us to drastically change our way of life. They can frighten us into not travelling about our own country the way we used to. They can get us to hide in our homes, to quit going to our sporting events, movies, etc.
That's their one spoil of war: our lifestyle. And that's not a spoil the military can get back for us. We have to do that. We have to refuse to give it to them.
The perception, even among ourselves, is that American culture is sometimes shallow. Hopefully, we will prove through this time that it only appears so because we refuse to surrender it to such people as would try to take it from us.
We need to go to our baseball games. We need to go buy a bunch of things we don't need from Walmart. We need to take our SUV's out to the lake for a picnic, or to go camping. We need to be ourselves. If we become somebody else, anybody else, we surrender.
Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
Notice how the towers fell straight down, instead of toppling over and taking out nearby buildings.
My girlfriend is a civil engineering student, and they discussed the attacks in her Structural Engineering class yesterday. Apparently, the guys who designed the towers should be very proud. In a worst-case scenario, fires would (as they did) cause the steel structures to melt. The towers were designed so that, in that worst-case scenario, they would implode straight down instead of falling over.
Intercarve Networks, LLC
If you have not yet donated blood, money, or service to the National Disaster Relief Fund, please consider doing so. I realize that request is obvious and redundant, but bear with me.
I can honestly say that the WTC, Pentagon, and Pennsylvania disasters have had a stronger effect on me than I would have ever imagined. I've been somewhat wigged out for the past two days, functioning on auto-pilot in order to get along with the business of life while I deal with feelings of horror, sadness, rage, and worst of all, helplessness.
Horror subsides - the media onslaught will always lead to de-sensitization. The images and video remain horrific, but somehow become lest horrifying through continued exposure. (I hope that makes sense...)
Sadness persists. It should. You should never be able to look back on September 11th and not feel sadness.
Helplessness is altogether different - it won't subside on its own. It requires action, and gone unchecked, can amplify every other negative emotion. This is why I finally got off my ass and donated last night. I realized that it's pointless to feel helpless, because it's so easy to help.
Give blood. If, like me, you can't give blood, give money. It's needed. If you don't have any money, go volunteer at your local blood center. If nothing else, pack an ice chest full of bottled water and hand it out to people waiting in line to donate blood! Do something. On September 11, 2002, when I ask you "What did you do to help one year ago?", I hope you have an answer that you're comfortable with.
So I've conquered helplessness. Horror will take care of itself. I welcome sadness as a sign of my own humanity.
That leaves only sweet, sweet rage.
The links are slashdotted, but I'll nonetheless offer what I saw on the Tokyo news regarding the type of collapse that occurred.
The buildings were built in the form of a large tube around the elevators and other shafts.
This structure should have been much more than adequate, given that the main considerations for support did not include supporting the weight of an intrusive jumbo jet.
For height, a building is somewhat built in a manner similar to a soda straw or a stalk of wheat.
In comparison, the tall buildings in Tokyo use a structure that is designed to withstand much more lateral stress in consideration of the daily earthquakes we get here, which is also much more forgiving of added weight. (It is, of course impossible to build a building as tall as the WTC this way.)
Remember that not only did the towers had to sustain the impact and then the iron-melting heat of the explosion, but also the added weight of the aircraft. The expert on TBS (Tokyo Broadcasting System) put the weight of the planes (I think I got it right,) at 4000 tons. (Personally, I have no idea of the weight of a jumbo jet.)
He called this type of collapse a 'Pancake Collapse' and demonstrated it using a styrofoam and balsa model.
I was impressed, since I, like many people I suppose, was surprised at the precision of the collapse. Next time you see the video of the collapse of tower one, watch the antenna mast. It barely wavers from perpendicular as it descends.
What an absolutely horrific way to learn a bit more about physics and architecture.
Jim in Tokyo
-- My Weblog.
Maybe today my sign-off poem ("they were all good people") will make more sense. I've been sending you only very short poems, but today it's something a bit longer (about a page), a poem written at least 20 years ago that seemed to come back to life today:
Making The World Safe For
Yankee, you say, thinking
you understand me, thinking
the 24-point-headline ideas
by which WE fail to understand YOU
will suffice for understanding US.
We are your problem as you are ours;
Let us understand one another.
It won't be easy. While your children starve,
Most of us are trying to loose weight.
We speak from a different part
of the palate, look with a different
openness -- some say veiledness; we have
an innocence -- or is it barbaric daze;
idealism -- some say bullying self-righteousness;
squeamishness about death and torture
if we have to see it...
I am a fat, squeamish Yankee, taught
to understand you by your T-shirt-like labels:
"Kill Me", "Pity Me", "Exploit Me", "Bribe Me",
"Enjoy Me", "Fear Me". I AM not,
CANnot be the thing you think you see,
for I am what you are: the understanding,
not what is misunderstood, which is
where I am absent from myself, and so
become what is easiest to be,
because it fits the headline script:
The Fat Greedy Satan whose crime is
to have failed to make everyone like me;
whose crime is to have dreamed well,
but not well enough; to have created a game
so good, it became the only game in town,
but not good enough to let everyone play;
so now the new game is: Destroy my game.
If all can't have it, let no one have it.
Understand us: We do not need your help
to destroy America. We need your help
to create it. It has not yet been.
Understand us, for we do not. You,
who hate us or condescend to us or toady to us,
you trap us in your sticky visions,
which, hardening, preserve us, your nightmare,
like flies in amber. We cannot be that.
Please understand us. We don't want to destroy you.
But how else can we free ourselves
from your vision?
Dean Blehert
dean@blehert.com
poems and paintings at
www.blehert.com
"It's even sadder than you think:
They were ALL good people."
and as a final note:
Yes, of course -- you can post or forward any poem I send you. Just leave my name with it and, preferably, email and/or url. But at least the name.
Dean
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable
editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
commentator. What follows is the full text of his broadcast.
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most
generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.
Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of
the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying
even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who
propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the
streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in
to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
Nobody helped.
The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into
discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about
the decadent, warmongering Americans.
I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the
erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other
country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why
do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?
Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the
moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk
about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.
You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not
once, but several times - and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store
window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued
and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are
breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home
to spend here. When the railways of France,* Germany and India were breaking
down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the
Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned
them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other
people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to
the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during
the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired
of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at
the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is
not one of those."
There are no pipelines being built across Afganistan. Afganistan is a landlocked nation between Russia, Pakistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan.
There are no pipelines being laid there because there is no point in putting pipelines across nations that do not have oil importing neighbors. It is however the world's largest illicit opium producer, and a huge producer of hash.
The questionable regions of the world with pipeline projects in the...pipeline...are Iran, Azerbaijan, Armenia and the rest of the whole southern CIS problem.
Here is the pipeline deal. There is a vast amount of oil in the Caspian Sea and Black Sea regions. The oil companies need to get that out to the West. Not in the middle of Asia. So the pipeline projects are from the Black Sea and Caspian to the west and to blue water ports for Supertankers. Afganistan is East. Not west. Afganistan has nothing to do with the enhanced oil export of the CIS.
The NY Times has a few maps of which buildings have collapsed/are unstable (Seems registration is uneeded at the moment too).
But I agree with typical geek - if you're not needed there, stay out of the way.
Not to mention how American political involvement has continually exacerbated the problems over there.
Your premise is correct, but your conslusion is not. If it were not for the US involvment Israel surely would have pushed the Palestinians into the sea long ago. Remember that these people are not even welcome in any of the Arab nations surrounding Israel. In spite of their terroism Israel is pressured by the US to make concessions to them.
If you want to make this about Israel, consider this: If it were shown that this attack was perpetrated by a terrorist cell of Native Americans would you be in favor of now giving them back Oklahoma to prevent future attacks? How would you feel if the UN was pressuring this decision?
Note: I have nothing against Native Americans, however their history in this country has several parallels to the history of the Palestinians in Israel.
Si vis pacem, para bellum
The only thing more annoying than a Libertarian is an (un|mis)informed Libertarian
I can only get to one of the two sites describing why the towers collapsed. It didn't offer the same reasons that the BBC's web site has been carrying for a couple of days: they claim that the temperatures exceeded 800 degrees of Celsius of melted the steel cores. Hindsight always clearer, but they also ask: why weren't the resucuers pulled out after a certain length of time, especially after the first tower collapsed?
Interestingly, only one of the two towers was insured as collapse of them both was unconceivable.
One has to wonder about that.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I simply put it there to prevent people from reprinting my story without my permission. I just don't want it to be used in the wrong way, and this is how I thought I could protect it.
You're entitled to your own thoughts, but if you think I'm doing this for money, you are quite wrong.
Never hit your grandmother with a shovel, for it leaves a bad impression on her mind...
I swear, if I ever work in a tall building like the towers I am going to learn to base jump. I'm going to keep a parachute under my desk in the event this (or even just a bad fire) ever happens to me.
America: The Good Neighbor
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record.
"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the Earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.
When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar, or the Douglas DC-10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on Earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again.
You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.
I can name you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles.
I hope Canada is not one of those."
"God Bless AMERICA...."
Besides, most of the precautions being put into place serve only to make people comfortable, not to actually stop terrorists. Unfortunately, there's not a whole lot you can do in a world where anything can be used for a weapon, people have no clue how to react in emergency situations, and terrorists don't have any demands and are perfectly willing to die.
Got Rhinos?
Living in NYC, working in Manhattan and living through whats happened recently, just what the hell do you expect?
I would be much more surprised if they didn't deploy Carnivore.
I will also be surprised if the boxes don't go away when they are done.
Right now I think we should save our criticism for when and IF they don't take the boxes away afterward.
For now I'm going to write your article up as merely "Misguided" instead of a Troll.
This space for rent. All reasonable inquiries will be entertained at proprietors discretion.
what on earth did your comment allude to in my statement? yes i am not thinking straight, not many are right now. but what are you talking about?
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
If they KNEW they were dead anyway- why in the hell were they complacent, like cattle off to the slaughter? I'd never willingly sit by, hoping to live a little longer, knowing that by doing so, I'm helping kill thousands.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
yes they are not buliding right now, but for mid-east to pakistan (and india) oil pipelines, afghanistan is a prime location. if it wasn't for their fascist government and current long-running civil wars.
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
http://www.indymedia.org.il/imc/israel/webcast/dis play.php3?article_id=6946
I don't know why, exactly, but that story doesn't make me laugh, it makes me profoundly sad. Perhaps its because the whole myth of Superman protecting the world is at the core of childhood. Things like this rip away any childish hope and expose only the bare reality that there really is evil in the world.
Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
If they're in control in such a manner that the passengers couldn't gain control, which is more important- the passengers in that plane or the thousands that might get killed if they crash into some place with lots of people.
He'd shoot the plane down and own up to it. Nobody would hold him accountable for it.
By the way, that cockpit door's not that stout- 3-5 strong people could rush the thing and batter it down easily.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
In the English language edition of Ha'Aretz today there is a short piece from an engineer who talks about the contruction of Israeli tall buildings. Basically concrete is more fire resistant and cheaper than steel. The downside is that it takes twice as long to build compared to steel.
Also as anyone who has ever been to the top of the WTC towers knows - the towers would sway up to a foot in high winds, twisting actually. I'm dubious one could make a concrete structure that could sway w/o breaking. The other problem with very tall buildings which WTC attempted to solve is the problem of elevators. Queueing theory and engineers at Otis Elevator will tell that buildings that tall get consumed by elevator shafts which makes the building a financial mistake. WTC had an open floor design with each floor of nearly an acre of unobstructed space ~200x200 feet. That is why the buildings were held up by their outside walls and why there were express elevators and elevators that started at high floors.
Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death
Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.
Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!
They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
Whether or not the sky marshalls should be in plain clothes is a matter of debate. I suggest that having them uniformed, and in plain sight would act as a deterent and prevent loss of life.
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
I have been saying now for years that nuclear proliferation and Islamic fundamentalism were the two biggest threats to the Western powers. I still believe this.
Ultimately the Western powers will simply have to concede that they cannot coexist with the Islamic fundamentalist states. I suspect that in the next few years this will flare into a larger conflict with very high casualties, and it is probably the beginning of the end of entrenched Islamic fundamentalist governments, whose citizens for better or for worse are going to bear the brunt of any military response.
Interesting reading:
- Terror in the Mind of God: the Global Rise of Religious Violence
- Political Islam
Meanwhile, in Australia they are already stoning school buses with Islamic kids on them... (I have a rant about this on my home page.)Danny
[I have written 600 book reviews]
I have written over 900 book reviews
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I think that is truly amazing and by the time you go there it will be even more. I donated my $100, did you? Even 10 dollars could help buy all these guys a cup of coffee, what's a couple bucks compared to the cause.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Oh bother.
Mind your own business, and there'll be less animosity towards you in the world.
No, there will probably just as much. For every person decrying American "imperialism," there is another person decrying American "isolationism."
I'm not even going to bring up the "What about Hitler" argument. An America who "minds its own business" will be hated for the sin of not doing, of sitting in its ivory tower while people starve, for being rich and complacent while people elsewhere are killed for their race or religion, and for saying "That's not my problem" while people are brutally oppressed.
And then someone, feeling he is justified in destroying the fat, rich America, will attack us so that we do pay attention to someone's suffering. People will hate us because of who we are, not because of what we do. When will Harry Browne learn?
As I was thinking about recent events, another historic event crossed my mind, which you can read about here or here.
If you don't want to read Old Testament passages I linked above, here's the story:
King Hezekiah was sick, and when the king of Babylon received the news he sent envoys bearing gifts. Hezekiah then showed those visitors everything in the kingdom-- treasures, palaces, lands, defense stores. Nothing was kept hidden. Isaiah had divine knowledge of the ambassadors' visit, and came to question the king about it. Hezekiah admitted showing the Babylonians everything in the kingnom, and Isaiah pronounced sentence: the destruction of Hezekiah's kingdom, and the enslavement of his own descendants. Hezekiah's reply? "The word of the LORD you have spoken is good," Hezekiah replied. For he thought, "There will be peace and security in my lifetime."
What's the relevance? We've had eight years of weak foriegn policy, and at least two years of "legacy building" by national leaders more interested in their own skin than the good of the country. Like Hezekiah, they are willing to sell the whole nation down the river for a few more days of their own personal good luck. Just as in the days of Isaiah, the chickens do come home to roost.
They have rounds that, while risky, are intended for use within the situation of being in flight at altitude. Also considering at that point if the sky marshals are overpowered, you're back to the situation on tuesday- they're going to be armed for bear and use it at the drop of a hat.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
For 30 years ago, it's not ridiculous. It also serves as a statment proclaming his admiration for our bravery and audacity.
"You talk about American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but several times ... and safely home again." Compared to radios and automobiles, that's a powerful image of a country which dared and won.
Brazil has decided you're cute.
Won't you be suprised when you meet your maker, and it turns out that not only does God hate terrorists for killing in his name, but he also hates racial biggots who advocate the killing of innocents simply because of where they happen to live?
mean to add to the media saturation but here is a link to some hi-res photos of the downtown area. Looks like some sort of bizarre sci fi movie.
http://www.recovery.sungard.com/index.cfm - busines continuance, recovery and mobile information systems units.
http://www.sungard.com for more info as well.
There is no Palestine. That's why the Palestinians are so mad. They believe that God gave Jerusalem to Ishmael, not Isaac.
Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
They'll smuggle the parts in one by one into the country. Then they'll assemble a Thin-man type bomb in the city that they intend nuking and do the deed. There's likely going to be NO missles to defend against.
I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
I didn't write this, I was sent it in an email, I don't know the original author. I am a muslim and I live in the US. I was born and raised in Canada with Indian background. I feel I need to help clear up what is true and what is not true with regards to Islam. Islam is a religion and a person practicing Islam is a muslim. There are five basics pillars of islam that any muslim should follow. All the guidance of what muslims should do is in the holy book called the Qu'ran or "Koran". Unfortunately, it seems that Bin Laden and others have taken religion as a vehicle to project their political hatred and motives. What he is doing, has nothing to do with Islam at all. Islam teaches people to be loving, peace giving, god fearing people. It teaches us to live with diversity, other religions, and humility. All the things that bin laden has said in the interviews and has done in the past are not words from the qu'ran but his words. And unfortunately the media and lack of real knowledge has blurred what is true and what is not. The statement by binladen that non-muslims cannot live in a muslim country is false - 100% false. India was ruled by muslims for 900 years, christians, muslims and hindus lived happily together. Same in palestine, before the partition, arab jews and arab muslims lived together for hundreds of years in peace. The main reasons for hatred and fighting the past 50 years was due more to political landscape than religion. Unfortunately, religion is a powerful tool that gets people motivated and people in power have used it as the lauch pad for fighting. Another item that binladen keeps talking about is Jihad or holy war. There is discussion of Jihad in the Qu'ran and when and why it is appropriate. It is never an offensive tactic. Jihad is only permitted when a muslim is being opppressed to practice their religion. Only real examples where Jihad may have been appropriate in recent years would be the Bosnian war where Bosnian muslims were being executed strictly based on their religion. But by no means, can a muslim country attack another country (muslim or not) as an act of Jihad. That is incorrect. the basics of islam are similar to christianity. Believe in one god. In arabic the word god is Allah. The god is the same between all three religions. jews, muslims and christians pray to the same god. That is very important to understand. But a true muslim is humble, not greedy, not arrogant and never shows jealousy. Tolerance, helping neighbours of any race, creed, or religion is the first thing. One of the five pillars of islam is to give to the poor. It's required, not a choice. As any religion or race, there are a small group of radicals that take any religion and bend it for their convenience. This seems to be the case with bin laden, saddam hussein, and others who have killed humans for their gain. None of these people will go to heaven as they believe they will. Jihad is not valid here nor does is it say to kill innocent children, parents, and siblings. Jihad only allows fighting among soliders, not civilians. Unfortunately these people are misled and doing very evil things that they will be punished for it. I'll stop rambling here..I hope this helps you guys get a better understand of what is going on. Just remember, Arab is a race..there are Arab Christians, Arab Jews and Arab muslims. At the moment radical arab muslims are causing trouble and doing things that are absolutely not tolerated in Islam at all. I hope these groups are stopped and removed. I was in NYC yesterday and I was there when it happened. I saw the second plane slam into the WTC 2. It was an experience I wish I had not witnessed. But we need to grow strong and not stereotype. best regards, a muslim in america.
"installed rational govenments"
This I think is the crux of of the matter. You haven't (and I am not being anti-American in this, Britain has made many of the same mistakes).
You gave support to Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war when your client government in the shape of the Shah was ousted.
You supported the Islamic fundamentalists in Afghanistan (including Bin Laden, who allegedly was funded by the CIA) when it looked as though they could be a thorn in the side of the Soviet Union.
You can hardly expect the people of Chile to believe you installed rational governments when they had to put up with Pinochet for so many years.
Yes, this was an appalling crime, done by some appalling people. Some understanding of the history of the population from where the criminals came from might prevent such a crime happening again.
Maybe the uniforms should have "Knock Me Out And Take My Gun" printed on the back.
No, definitely plainclothes.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Amazon.com has an online donations page set up so you can give up to $100 from the comfort of your desk (using the patented one-click method if you like). Unlike the Red Cross site, which is severely overloaded, Amazon's page is quite quick. Donations through Amazon alone are already at nearly $2.4 million, and you can refresh the page to watch them climb.
Seen any BadMarketing lately?
Why is it even now people think we can live with them? If they left us alone we would leave them alone. Its not their faith that is the problem it's the culture of hate and their belief that they are right and every one else is wrong. How can anybody support a society that treats their women the way the Middle Eastern country's do. They are a culture of fanatics just like the Japan of world war two. I am not talking about killing them all I'm talking about forcing them to live with others in PEACE. Japan in WWII was convinced that they were a divine race and everyone else was wrong. It took the blood of many people from many countries to force them to live with us in peace and they do to this day. So should we nuke them? I would say no but we should force them in to unconditional surrender and put a stable democratic government with freedom for all religions in place. We should never tolerate or appease a people that have no respect for others. The taliban and other Islamic cults are butchers that mutilated women professionals such as doctors and schoolteachers. But they hide behind their religion. It is not the Muslim religion that is at fault it is the culture of fear that they have created. Don't let them use their religion to justify their actions.
Fuck you. You should be thanking god you didn't lose any friends or family. And if you did and think that prattling about privacy issues is more important, fuck you again.
I suppose becoming a techno terrorist yourself is the remedy? Since when is terrorism condoned? Why are you targeting innocent middle eastern civilians? Terrorism is evil because it targets civilians. Trust me, you will not affect the terrorists in any way with your hacks. If you remember Bin Laden doesn't even have telephone access much less Internet.
This stupid terrorist mentality is what we have to fight both on our side and theirs. I live in the Richardson, TX (just outside of Dallas) and we have a few idiots prancing around here shooting up mosques. Fools.. no better than the damn terrorists. I feel sorry for the innocent Arab ****AMERICANS**** cuz of a witch hunt by a few ignorant trash bastards.
JOhn
Campaign for Liberty
These people were going to die. I don't think they really cared if they were sloppy or not.
<flamebait>Most people on /. have been really good with this tragidy but a few people need to turn off the paranoia and stop worrying about how this affects their freedom and start worrying about the people who are truely affected (like the thousands who have lost family members). There will be time later to say that Carnivore is a bad idea. The FBI is not stupid and they might find something. And as long as you aren't e-mailing people about blowing stuff up they probably don't care about you.
</flamebait>The Anti-Blog
- 100 Britons
- 78 Australians
- 100 Japanese
- 27 South Koreans
- 100 - 150 Mexicans
- 6 Irish
Those are the numbers given by CNN, but there have just got to be more from other nations. No Saudis, Isrealis, Chinese, or Indians are mentioned in the article, but it would seem likely that there were plenty of people around from those nations.Miko O'Sullivan
Could an airliner's skin be sufficiently toughened for Air Marshals to be able to use rubber bullets?
If not, tasers, those new infra-red stun devices the military are playing with - even a harpoon gun could be very effective against skyjackers.
A third option, that nobody seems to have mentioned - the pilots already have a "panic button" in the event of a skyjacking. This could easily also put the plane irreversibly on automatic pilot, or remote piloting, to ensure that the vehicle -could- not be used in this way, and WOULD land safely at the nearest suitable emergency runway.
There is a term, used in connection with hostile acts, and the response given. That term is "Dane Gold". It is said that in the times of King Ethelred the Unready, whenever the Danes landed a raiding fleet, King Ethelred would rather just pay them to go away. After a while, the Danes cottoned on to the fact that simply landing on a beach was an easy way to make money. And they made a lot of it.
Thus, today, when someone provides a means for a hostile force to repeatedly profit off exactly the same strategy, they are said to be paying "Dane Gold".
Provided it is even remotely possible for any terrorist organisation to use civilian aircraft as weapons against America, then America is vulnerable to paying that Dane Gold.
Mrs. Thatcher and Ronald Reagan adopted the philosophy of "the only ones paying are the other side". Often, this involved storming aircraft, with guns blazing. I, personally, have intense dislike for their hard-line attitudes. However, I'm not even going to question the fact that the legacy of their strategy was a massive reduction in such actions, in the air and at sea.
The only alternative I can see to their hardline tactics would be Air Marshals on every flight with enough disabling force to cripple any attempt, and some kind of "panic button" the pilot can use as a "last resort" to disable the controls beyond any person's ability to restore, in-flight.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
The times of London is reporting that the Taleban have put Osama bin Laden under house arrest in Afghanistan. Of course its still too early to conclude who is responsible, but its encouraging to hear of possible cooperation. If no one will harbor the fiends responsible for this, it may be possible to bring them to justice without loss of other innocent lives.
And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners.
Berke Breathed
i dont think that word means what the insurers think it means.
Don't blame me - I voted for Howard Dean. http://dean2004.blogspot.com
The big question? Do we rebuild it?
The answer is a loud and emphatic YES.
But this time build it as a 170-story twin tower with post-Modernest design that has Art Deco touches. And make sure the buildings' structural integrity holds even if a 747-400 directly hits the towers fully-loaded with Jet A fuel.
Building a memorial park in place of the destroyed World Trade Center towers is defeatism, IMHO.
I have a family member who is a Morgan Stanley exec in San Jose. He has told me that they understand that most of the NY-based personnel did escape from the building. They are of course doing everything they can to get a comprehensive picture, and he says that it's enormously chaotic right now as they mourn the loss of life and continue operations.
-schussat
The hour of noon has passed. Let us go and get some Kentucky Fried Chicken.
According to Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, as InfoWorld reports, Western intelligence services knew for months that exactly this sort of attack by hijacked airplanes against highly symbolic targets was planned. Why was airport security not tightened? Why were there no fighters at hair-trigger readiness to be scrambled? As a patriot, I have to hope that the FAZ report is disinformation. But I also recall the claim by some historians that our intelligence services at the time knew Pearl Harbor was coming, and allowed it to get us into the war.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
Sinclair Editorial
From that page: "On June 5 1973, Canadian radio commentator Gordon Sinclair decided he'd had enough of the stream of criticism and negative press recently directed at the United States of America by foreign journalists (primarily over America's long military involvement in Vietnam, which had ended with the signing of the Paris Peace Accords six months earlier). When he arrived at radio station CFRB in Toronto that morning, he spent twenty minutes dashing off a two-page editorial defending the USA against its carping critics which he then delivered in a defiant, indignant tone during his "Let's Be Personal" spot at 11:45 AM that day."
Helevius
I agree with you that visiblity works both ways. That's why I think it's a tricky issue and there doesn't seem to be a single best answer.
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
...life
Though the crosshairs might suggest a rocket launcher or artilery.
You're using her as bait, Master!
The towers were not designed to be *completely* evacuated in any situation. In case of fire, the plan was to only evacuate the fire floor, the floor above it, and three floors below.
Infrastructure for a timely evacuation of 20-30 thousand people would look a *lot* different than a staircase two persons wide.
Marko Karppinen
This is war buddy. The congress will be issuing a declaration of war within days or hours. War conditions change everything.
There is ample precedent to clamp down on civil liberties during time of war, dating back to the ancient romans. President Lincoln suspened Habeus Corupus and allowed writs of attainder during the civil war.
There comes a time when even idealogues need to get a grip.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Last night I saw something I was hoping not to see on the news -- acts of violence against Arabic/Islamic-Americans. I would hope that no one from this forum would be so narrow minded, but please people, lets not forget what happened after Columbine. I live in Colorado and know what it's like to have a community's anger directed in my direction in the aftermath of a tragedy (I was openly harassed on the streets for several weeks afterwards), and I can only imagine that it will be much worse for those in the Arabic communities of the US, as Columbine doesn't even compare to this tragedy. Please remember - it's the terrorists who were involved that are to blame, not every Arabic person out there.
But it wasn't inconceivable. Some idiot tried to crash a light plane into the White House a few years ago. Tom Clancy and others have created fictional accounts of these kinds of attacks in books and movies. We already knew that here in the real world there are people willing to coldly and calmly die to do these kinds of things.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
When the companies that worked in the WTC buy thousands of new computers, will they have to pay once again for the OS which was destroyed?
ok then your [sic] infringing on my copyright! Could you as [sic] me next time before STEALING my comments for your own?
There needs to be some emergency provision for this.
"Enough of this wretched, whining monkey life." -- Marcus Aurelius, _Meditations_, Book 9, 37
I have set this up as a central information site. Please share the address with others. But, please do not browse it unless you need to. I don't want the server to get overloaded. Also, if anyone finds any emergency or volunteer contacts (or the like) online that aren't on the site, please let me know.
worldtradeaftermath.com
Portable versions of Firefox, GIMP, LibreOffice, etc
Corrosion would be a problem, sealing it would be difficult, and if they were one solid column of water, the column at the base would have to be able to withstand about 450 PSI of pressure. Add to this, an impact of a large object would likely crack the column, allowing all the water to leak out at the point of the fire initially (maybe a good thing), but provide no cooling above later- a very bad thing.
You might want to check your facts first. There were almost 60,000 killed in Vitenam and 153,000 casualties. We're all saddened by the events but please don't add to the misinformation.
I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
I'm a Canadian, but I've been as shaken up by all this as if I were American. The horror of what happened is independent of nation -- everybody (or almost everybody) on the entire planet was hurt by this. I can't imagine what the people in New York and Washington are going through, but I know it's a horrifying thing without anything resembling rational explantion.
Here in Edmonton, all flags are flying at half mast -- not just on government buildings, but anybody who has a flag is doing the same. In the Provincial Legislature Building, there are books that people are signing to express their condolences to America and tell you that you're not alone. A moment of silence has been recommended for 10am today.
Similar things are happening around the world.
And it matters. I was talking to an Arizonan friend of mine last night. We got to talking about all the ways the world is reaching out, about how people are trying to express their shock and horror and outrage all over the world, and she cried. She told me to tell everyone I could that it matters -- the books are not being signed in vain, the half-mast flags are being seen, the sympathy is felt.
It's as important as donating to the Red Cross.
-Erf C.
Cthulu always calls collect...
The depressing thing is that much US foreign policy seems almost as ignorant.
Danny
[I have written 600 book reviews]
I have written over 900 book reviews
Has anyone read Harry Browne's article?
It's here:http://www.antiwar.com/orig/browne2.html
His homepage is here:http://www.harrybrowne.org
It will take you less that 2 minutes to read.
I also favor the middle-finger design with the addition of a SAM battery on the roof.
You're using her as bait, Master!
It would be very tempting to let the Russian military do a lot of the dangerous and dirty work in Afghanistan instead of risking our military, but they would be doing it in our name and the atrocities they would commit against the Afghans would make *every* Afghan for the next 100 years the cold blooded mortal enemy of the United States.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
I would like to see Israeli levels of pre-flight security, and the total elimination of carry-on baggage that is non-essential (medicine, an asthma inhaler, etc.). There is simply no need at all for each passenger to be allowed to bring on two pieces of mid-size luggage. Not only does it represent a security threat, it makes getting on and off planes a complete hassle. One of the reasons air travel has become so painful is the ridiculous amount of luggage people are trying to cram in to their overhead bins.
From the Guardian: Anti-Islamic sentiment has turned to violence in pockets across the world following Tuesday's terrorist attacks, despite the fact that no group has claimed responsibility or been officially blamed. A Molotov cocktail was thrown at an Arab-American community centre in Chicago, a firebomb was hurled at a mosque in Montreal, and in Australia, aggressors threw stones and bottles at a busload of Muslim schoolchildren. In New York, a 75-year-old drunken man tried to run over a Pakistani woman in a shopping mall parking lot. He then followed her into a shop and threatened to kill her for "destroying my country". In Illinois 300 protesters, some waving American flags, tried to march on a mosque in this south-west Chicago suburb last night. Three demonstrators were arrested as police worked to keep the crowds away from the Muslim place of worship. "I'm proud to be American and I hate Arabs and I always have," said 19-year-old Colin Zaremba, who marched with the group. Tamara Alfson, an American working at the Kuwait embassy in Washington, spent yesterday counselling frightened Kuwaiti students attending schools across the United States. "Some of them have already been harassed," she said. In a show of patriotism, 45 people from Tampa, Florida's Islamic community yesterday registered to donate blood and 30 members of the Muslim Students Association at the University of South Florida signed up. Abu Nahidian, director of the Manassas mosque in Virginia, said his congregation has been the target of insults and hate messages left on the office answering machine. "We have some recordings in our tapes that say, 'We hate you so-and-so Muslims and we hope you die'," he said. Several other incidents were reported in Canada, where five school children with Arabic-sounding names were assaulted in Oakville, Ontario. In Australia, the school bus attack took place in Brisbane. In Sydney, a Lebanese church was daubed with swastikas and an attempt was made to burn it down. Queensland state's Islamic council chairman, Sultan Deen, said public outrage over the attacks had also led to abusive phone calls to mosques. "It is very disturbing. They are saying things like: 'You will be held responsible' and 'We'll get you,'" Mr Deen said. An Islamic group in Singapore today urged people not to lay blame too quickly for the terrorist attacks. "The process of scapegoating started immediately after the crashes," the Muslim community organisation Fateha said in a statement. "We note, with terrible unease, the way Arabs and Muslims are treated in America, before any real evidence has been established on the perpetrators of this horrendous crime," the statement said.
1. Maybe they didn't know it was intending to crash...just fly over. Also, is it wise to hit a plane witha missle when its currently over a heavily populated area? I think the wreckage of a plane exploding midair over residental areas would be alot more damage then letting it crash into the pentagon.
2. The terrorist supposedly told the passengers they also had a bomb. It seems that for the 3 planes that hit the passengers probably didn't know they were going on a crash course, and were told they would not be harmed. Given that they were probably hoping for the best. Supposedly the 4th plane crashed in PA b/c the passengers DID find out they would be screwed either way.
Maybe the uniforms should have "Knock Me Out And Take My Gun" printed on the back.
Or even "knock me out, take my clothes and gun, broad plane"...
And your point is...? Any of those things could happen whether or not the security officer wears a red Classic Trek shirt, er, uniform.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
Just a heads up to all who remember this movie, starring Peter Gallagher. Shows the FBI chasing the WTC bombers, and alot from the bombers side. It gave me chills when I saw it, and I'm setting TiVo to record this tomorrow - the listing came from a link off of the IMDb:
Path to Paradise(1997)
THMAX 09:40AM-11:15AM Friday Sep 14
To those who are willing to be 'inconvenienced' at the aiport in order to be safe... No amount of inconveniencing will give you the safety you crave.
Repeat after me...
No amount of 'inconveniencing' will give me the safety I crave.
Repeat it over and over as a mantra until you achieve enlightenment.
I could learn martial arts well, with a bunch of buddy's, get onto the plane, kill a few people with some well placed jabs, and take control. Would you be willing to be manacled to prevent this? You can make knives quickly out of many things. Take a stiff plastic or metal box for example. Are you going to make people strip before they get on the plane? I'm sure someone more imaginative than I can come up with scenarios in which even being stripped and manacled would not be enough.
There is no security in the direction you wish to go. As Benjamin Franklin said "Those who would trade liberty for security will get and deserve neither.".
The only way to prevent these attacks is to decrease the motivation to perform them. This is done by being a nice country, and by being implacably and harshly punitive in our response to such attacks.
I will be traveling by air soon, and I intend to make up some leaflets to distribute at the airport about this. It's either that, or get upset at being patted down and create a scene. I think the leaflet approach to venting my frustrations is much more constructive.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
"No curb side checkin? LIke thats gonna make a DIFFERENCE? Its SO simple to make a weapon - just as a prisoner. Consider this:"
[snip]
Consider THIS: A few weeks ago I was at the airport and went to one of those fancy restaurants you can eat in near the terminals (I don't recall the name right now). I ordered steak, and guess what? They gave me a nice large KNIFE to cut it with. This restaurant was AFTER THE SECURITY CHECKPOINT. Chew on that for a while.
IIRC, though, the reason nobody uses Glasers is because they turned out to be wickedly inaccurate and had a habit of fragmenting prematurely, either in the barrel or in flight, thus having no more effect upon a target than pretty much pissing him off.
That's what I seem to recall, anyway - I suppose I could be thinking of something else.
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
AFAIK the current five pillars of Islam (Faith, Prayer, Zakat, Fasting and Pilgramage) were originally six - the sixth being war. Depends upon how moderate a person you ask. The real nutters think that this is cool - in fact dying in battle, you go to heaven and get something like 70 virgins to have your way with (doesn't say whether they swallow).
This sig made only from recycled ASCII
Firstly I would like to say that what has happened is unbelieveably terrible, and my heart really goes out to all those people that have been affected by this terrible terrorist act.
What saddens me is the response of many Americans, including some on Slashdot. The people who did this thing are crazy, insane, evil people, I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind about that. However, declaring all out war on another country - a war in which many innocent lives will be lost - is not an action to be taken lightly.
Americans don't have direct experience of war in their own country, or until now, the devastating effects of terrorism. I remember watching the Gulf war on CNN, and myself and the people with me being absolutely shocked by the commentators making comments about how beautiful the falling missiles were. Many of those missiles were falling on innocent people, and many families will have been destroyed by those missiles, just as many families lives will have been destroyed by the events of the last few days. I am not saying that the Gulf war was wrong, just that a war like that is really just as sad as what's happened with the WTC, when many lives are lost because of a few evil, crazy men (Saddam and his cronies).
And it has always amazed me that one of the principal sources of funding for the IRA terrorist organisation has been New York. If there is one good thing to come from this, I hope it is that funding for the IRA from NY will now stop, now that New Yorkers have direct experience of the evils of terrorism.
My plea to Americans is, stop viewing your interventions into the rest of the world like a Holywood movie, with Americans as the goodies and the foreigners as the baddies. Innocent people, good people, families and children are destoryed by war and terrorist acts. So please don't let your reaction to this be "let's nuke Afganistan". It pains me to say it, but if that's your attitude, you're not much more civilized than a crazy, evil terrorist.
A third option, that nobody seems to have mentioned - the pilots already have a "panic button" in the event of a skyjacking. This could easily also put the plane irreversibly on automatic pilot, or remote piloting, to ensure that the vehicle -could- not be used in this way, and WOULD land safely at the nearest suitable emergency runway.
Except that the hijackers can then crash the plane anywhere on its flight path. How is such an automatic pilot going to cope with the aircraft's electrical and hydrolic systems being systematically vanalised? Let alone an explosive decompression, which could be caused simply by unlatching the cargo loading doors.
Islamic fundamentalism is just as dangerous to the world as National Socialism (Nazi) ever was.
Be careful -- there may be truth in what you say, but it can be misinterpreted.
This is a good place to point out that Islamic leaders around the world have condemned the attack as inhuman and un-islamic. American Islamic leaders in particular have directed their followers to donate blood, money, to volunteer in the emergency response and to assist law enforcement in any way they can. It is also very likely that some of the victims of this crime were muslims themselves.
The US press has not picked up on this yet, but the foreign press (e.g. The London times) is starting to to report the beginning of a wave of hate crimes in America against Muslims. I even heard one congressinal pinhead libelling Islam as a totalitarian ideology masquerading as a religion. These developments are disgraceful and unworthy.
The real division is not between religions, but between people who believe there can be civilized coexistence between people who have different viewpoints, and those who believe that one side can only enjoy freedom at the expense of the other. Osama bin Laden is one of the latter, and he deivides into two camps: the Christian/Jewish side and the Muslim side. People spreading religious or ethnic hatred are, in effect agreeing with him and doing his work; their personal feelings towards him are simply petty tribalism.
Make no mistake: America was targeted because we are a free, open and pluralistic society where muslims can coexist peacefully with christians, jews and even atheists. This marks us out for special hatred,and with good reason: our success and preeminence in the world shows that all ideologies of intolerance preaching freedom for one viewpoint through the oppression of others are lies.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
There is another option - train flight attendents to handle Tasers.
If you do this you also need to have security checks for aircraft crew. Otherwise you end up with a situation where the easier option for such a terrorist is to get a job with an airline.
Most of these ideas are far more likely to deter a passenger who decides fairly spontaniously to take over a plane. We are dealing with paramilitary terrorist groups, who are organised and spent months, possibly years, in planning and preperation.
Life Insurance
The usual porn stuff
Stock tips (here's a tip, fsckwit, the markets are still closed)
Lose weight
Travel opportunities (gee, what timing!)
and Prayers
Even the relentless pursuit of money and corruption continues. The prayer spam I found, unusual, to say the least. Surprisingly, no 'bomb the taliban' or 'kill bin laden' spam, which I fully expected.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I wish I could sit on the porch with a beer, as you suggest.
However, there are dry counties, and in non-dry counties, there are open container laws-
either of which prohibit me from kicking back on my porch because I'm visibly imbibing from the street.
You may note that the open container law doesn't prohibit me from drinking on my porch, but it's of no consequence- I'm seen from a public place, the street, so I still get harrassed.
Minor league baseball season is over.
Should I really try and pursue Eureka(tm) for their vacuum cleaner that failed under warranty, but the warranty has now expired? Should I really practice escapism and go to the movie theater?
If we become something other than ourselves, we've lost, but right now, we're busy being ourselves in mourning.
What shall we do, other than trudge into work, under the cloud that has been cast over our spirits?
I, for one, think enough is enough. If these tanks were filled with foam, there is a good chance the momentum of the things would have carried the fuel tanks out the other side of the building and the buildings would not have fallen. They fell because of fire; and fuel cells greatly minimize fire.
"The most sensible request of government we make is not, "Do something!" But "Quit it!"
You're both right...
/usr/terrorists/osama
/usr/terrorists/osama
$ chmod a+x
That makes him executable.
$ rm -f
That removes him permanently, with force.
You have to make him executable before you kill him...
I heard some news about new security measures that will place armed federal agents on airplanes. However, I'm thinking to myself that this could make passengers a little uneasy.
So I was wondering, why aren't airline pilots armed? If the airlines could train the pilots to carry firearms, and use them, it could save a lot of lives in the future during incidents similar to Tuesday.
Also, the pilots should have "shoot first ask questions later" rights while they are on duty. I really think this could be helpful...injure a few to save the lives of hundreds. That's an instant no-brainer.
I can still see a lot of security implications here, but it is at least a start.
Personally, I don't see why any aircraft, under such a contingency, needs to remain in the air that long. A flat(ish), wide road would probably work as a runway, in a crisis. A belly-landing in a shallow lake would probably work, in a pinch.
ANY reasonably flat, reasonably stable surface, that is wide enough to take at least the main tires and preferably those on each wing, is all you need, to land intact.
However, there's no requirement to land "intact". If you're going to lose the plane anyway, then what you want is a landing that limits the risk of death, injury, fuel-tank explosion, etc. A water landing is risky, but it certainly meets the criteria.
If water's just not an option, then mud is the next-best thing. Marshes would be out (marsh gas is methane, and methane + hot aircraft is not a good combination), but water-logging is common in low-lying regions. Do a belly-slide across a large field of mud, and the aircraft'll sustain some damage, but it's not likely to produce 30' craters.
Sure, these suggestions aren't "perfect". I'm not an aerospace engineer, or a professional pilot. I'm going by what physics and mechanics I know, and by an understanding that a "solution" constitutes anything that produces >0% chance of survival for at least one passanger.
If =ANY= person can come up with an idea, which - if used - would save even ONE life of a passanger under the sorts of conditions we saw on Tuesday, then that, in my opinion, is 100% better than what we saw. And even if no life on the aircraft was saved, but thousands on the ground were spared from death, horror, or both, that would be infinitely better.
In the end, something will happen. The question is whether that "something" will make a real difference or not to the safety of those on aircraft and those on the ground. If it does not, then why bother with it? If it does, then maybe some speck of good can come out of this endless nightmare.
If someone implements a scheme - something similar to what I've outlined, or something totally different, I don't care - that makes this tragedy as unrepeatable as humanly possible, then AND ONLY THEN, has this attack truly failed. We will be the stronger for what we've survived. Instead of hurting America, this evil will have foiled itself and turn to good.
It is only if we fail to learn, fail to grow, that we will truly be a defeated nation. For in failing to learn or grow, we will have announced to the world that we haven't the drive to survive.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
It's a coincidence - the two are unrelated;
It's a relative - Middle Eastern names can sometimes be confusingly similar to outsiders;
It's two different guys, but the second one grabbed the passport/ID of the dead first guy for reasons of his own....
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
A common type is lead powder/granules compressed into a bullet shape. WHen it hits a hard object, they generally dont penetrate, soft object get the full force and can be quite leathal as i understand. Were commonly used in old carnival games with shooting at wood sucks, wouldnt penetrate, wouldnt ricochet, and the powder wwas easily gatherd up and used again.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
But when we get a target, a plan and resources ready, we must GO!
Views like this scare me. NATO can drop every bomb it has on which ever target is eventually chosen: it will do noting except make things worse. Too many innocent people are dead already. These guys hijacked planes with knives, anyone with determination could have done it. Fighting terrorism with conventional weapons does not work. Look at Israel, despite overwhelming military superiority, they cannot stop attacks. The only way to stop terrorism is to heighten security and remove their support. The way to remove their support is to settle the legitimate grievances that societies that may be tempted to harbour terrorists have. This is not easy, dropping bombs is. However, every bomb dropped will strengthen the terrorist's resolve, push moderates to extremism, and make extremists mad-dogs.
I've been elsewhere. I've seen how people around the world who have had to deal with the threat of terrorism all their lives have to put up with the loss of personal freedom. Yeah, and throwing in that "totalitarian" and "religious" state comment was interesting, albeit not what I suggested would happen.
I'm talking specifically about travel and communications. And I think as we begin to learn what we'll have to put up with to insure some semblance of safety for our citizens, "police state" will take on a very different meaning. Carnivore is nothing, a red herring. We'll get used to it.
There are plenty of "thinking" people in countries that have far less interest in civil liberties than us. Yes, they have to put up with some discomfort at having their thoughts (if they publish them on the Internet) scoured over by security forces. Yes, they have to put up with having their persons searched before they board a commercial airliner. But that doesn't keep them from thinking, it keeps them alive. I'm sure they appreciate that, although they don't like it anymore than anyone else.
-- "In order to have power, I must be taken seriously." -Mojo Jojo
When this happened, I had a lot of thoughts going through my head... but found it difficult to clearly say what I felt...
So I will leave that to someone esle (who is much more qualified to do so):
>Subject: It Doesn't Have to Be Like This
>Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2001 13:14:00 -0400
Death, Downtown
Dear friends,
I was supposed to fly today on the 4:30 PM American Airlines flight from LAX to JFK. But tonight I find myself stuck in L.A. with an incredible range of emotions over what has happened on the island where I work and live in New York City.
My wife and I spent the first hours of the day -- after being awakened by phone calls from our parents at 6:40am PT -- trying to contact our daughter at school in New York and our friend JoAnn who works near the World Trade Center.
I called JoAnn at her office. As someone picked up, the first tower imploded, and the person answering the phone screamed and ran out, leaving me no clue as to whether or not she or JoAnn would live.
It was a sick, horrible, frightening day.
On December 27, 1985 I found myself caught in the middle of a terrorist incident at the Vienna airport -- which left 30 people dead, both there and at the Rome airport. (The machine-gunning of passengers in each city was timed to occur at the same moment.)
I do not feel like discussing that event tonight because it still brings up too much despair and confusion as to how and why I got to live... a fluke, a mistake, a few feet on the tarmac, and I am still here, there but for the grace of...
Safe. Secure. I'm an American, living in America. I like my illusions. I walk through a metal detector, I put my carry-ons through an x-ray machine, and I know all will be well.
Here's a short list of my experiences lately with airport security:
* At the Newark Airport, the plane is late at boarding everyone. The counter can't find my seat. So I am told to just "go ahead and get on" -- without a ticket!
* At Detroit Metro Airport, I don't want to put the lunch I just bought at the deli through the x-ray machine so, as I pass through the metal detector, I hand the sack to the guard through the space between the detector and the x-ray machine. I tell him "It's just a sandwich." He believes me and doesn't bother to check. The sack has gone through neither security device.
* At LaGuardia in New York, I check a piece of luggage, but decide to catch a later plane. The first plane leaves without me, but with my bag -- no one knowing what is in it.
* Back in Detroit, I take my time getting off the commuter plane. By the time I have come down its stairs, the bus that takes the passengers to the terminal has left -- without me. I am alone on the tarmac, free to wander wherever I want. So I do. Eventually, I flag down a pick-up truck and an airplane mechanic gives me a ride the rest of the way to the terminal.
* I have brought knives, razors; and once, my traveling companion brought a hammer and chisel. No one stopped us. Of course,
I have gotten away with all of this because the airlines consider my safety SO important, they pay rent-a-cops $5.75 an hour to make sure the bad guys don't get on my plane. That is what my life is worth -- less than the cost of an oil change.
Too harsh, you say? Well, chew on this: a first-year pilot on American Eagle (the commuter arm of American Airlines) receives around $15,000 a year in annual pay.
That's right -- $15,000 for the person who has your life in his hands. Until recently, Continental Express paid a little over $13,000 a year. There was one guy, an American Eagle pilot, who had four kids so he went down to the welfare office and applied for food stamps -- and he was eligible!
Someone on welfare is flying my plane? Is this for real? Yes, it is. So spare me the talk about all the precautions the airlines and the FAA is taking. They, like all businesses, are concerned about one thing -- the bottom line and the profit margin.
Four teams of 3-5 people were all able to penetrate airport security on the same morning at 3 different airports and pull off this heinous act? My only response is -- that's all?
Well, the pundits are in full diarrhea mode, gushing on about the "terrorist threat" and today's scariest dude on planet earth -- Osama bin Laden. Hey, who knows, maybe he did it. But, something just doesn't add up.
Am I being asked to believe that this guy who sleeps in a tent in a desert has been training pilots to fly our most modern, sophisticated jumbo jets with such pinpoint accuracy that they are able to hit these three targets without anyone wondering why these planes were so far off path?
Or am I being asked to believe that there were four religious/political fanatics who JUST HAPPENED to be skilled airline pilots who JUST HAPPENED to want to kill themselves today?
Maybe you can find one jumbo jet pilot willing to die for the cause -- but FOUR? Ok, maybe you can -- I don't know. What I do know is that all day long I have heard everything about this bin Laden guy except this one fact -- WE created the monster known as Osama bin Laden!
Where did he go to terrorist school? At the CIA!
Don't take my word for it -- I saw a piece on MSNBC last year that laid it all out. When the Soviet Union occupied Afghanistan, the CIA trained him and his buddies in how to commits acts of terrorism against the Soviet forces. It worked! The Soviets turned and ran. Bin Laden was grateful for what we taught him and thought it might be fun to use those same techniques against us.
We abhor terrorism -- unless we're the ones doing the terrorizing.
We paid and trained and armed a group of terrorists in Nicaragua in the 1980s who killed over 30,000 civilians. That was OUR work. You and me. Thirty thousand murdered civilians and who the hell even remembers!
We fund a lot of oppressive regimes that have killed a lot of innocent people, and we never let the human suffering THAT causes to interrupt our day one single bit.
We have orphaned so many children, tens of thousands around the world, with our taxpayer-funded terrorism (in Chile, in Vietnam, in Gaza, in Salvador) that I suppose we shouldn't be too surprised when those orphans grow up and are a little whacked in the head from the horror we have helped cause.
Yet, our recent domestic terrorism bombings have not been conducted by a guy from the desert but rather by our own citizens: a couple of ex-military guys who hated the federal government.
From the first minutes of today's events, I never heard that possibility suggested. Why is that?
Maybe it's because the A-rabs are much better foils. A key ingredient in getting Americans whipped into a frenzy against a new enemy is the all-important race card. It's much easier to get us to hate when the object of our hatred doesn't look like us.
Congressmen and Senators spent the day calling for more money for the military; one Senator on CNN even said he didn't want to hear any more talk about more money for education or health care -- we should have only one priority: our self-defense.
Will we ever get to the point that we realize we will be more secure when the rest of the world isn't living in poverty so we can have nice running shoes?
In just 8 months, Bush gets the whole world back to hating us again. He withdraws from the Kyoto agreement, walks us out of the Durban conference on racism, insists on restarting the arms race -- you name it, and Baby Bush has blown it all.
The Senators and Congressmen tonight broke out in a spontaneous version of "God Bless America." They're not a bad group of singers!
Yes, God, please do bless us.
Many families have been devastated tonight. This just is not right. They did not deserve to die. If someone did this to get back at Bush, then they did so by killing thousands of people who DID NOT VOTE for him! Boston, New York, DC, and the planes' destination of California -- these were places that voted AGAINST Bush!
Why kill them? Why kill anyone? Such insanity...
Let's mourn, let's grieve, and when it's appropriate let's examine our contribution to the unsafe world we live in.
It doesn't have to be like this...
Yours,
Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
It's a difficult balance, and some people will always be upset at where the scales fall. For now, let's just accept what protection our government is trying to give us, and complain about it later after we've eliminated whatever threat has caused this
The threat of terrorism can never be eliminated, so you just made Carnivore permanent.
If they at least made the store of my email accessible, I wouldn't have to keep a backup on my own disk...
I don't understand why anyone would trust the FBI. That agency has a stunning history of abusing it's powers, making J Edgar Hoover the most powerful man in US history. I guess most Americans are simply unaware of that history.
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I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
The governments of Iran, Sudna, Yemen and Iraq have been, and will continue to be deeply ionvolved in the support of Islamic terrorism. This is well known and well documented.
The politicians are very rational, if you understand their goals. People on /. are generally thinking along the lines of either:
what can we do to genuinely fix the situation ?
or:
what can we do to make ourselves feel better ?(revenge, nukes, blabla)
The politicians (who drive media discourse) are naturally thinking along the lines of:
how can we make the most of the situation ?
The answer to this is to use it to increase American corporate/military dominance of the world. The politicians are just doing their jobs, ie, they're doing what they're paid for, and most of their pay comes from corporate interests.
So, there are several ways to exploit the situation:
1. Increase corporate welfare, ie payment from taxpayers to corporations (also known as defense spending, and foreign aid). It's irrelevent that the missile defense shield will do nothing to protect Americans and will escalate the arms race - that's not the point. In fact, it's great if India, Pakistan, China and Russia respond by increasing their defense spending because (a) we can sell them weapons and (b) it justifies further increases in American defense spending.
2. Clamp down on civil liberties (corporations are not well served by a free and connected society so, you need to stamp out encryption, anonymous speech, decrease the basic ability for people to talk to each other, unionise, complain about GA crops, demand health care, or any other nonsense)
3. Strengthen America's position as "leader of the free world", or to put it another way, tighten one's grip on foreign countries. Any country with an unpleasant tendancy to not bow down to US interests, is told to show subservience or face punitive military action. It's a good time to demand subservience because there will be far less domestic opposition to bombing the hell out of them should anyone disagree.
4. Silence your detractors. Anybody who disagrees with you at a time like this is obviously "unAmerican" "unpatriotic" and "bowing down to terrorism".
The only bad thing is that people might wonder why this happened, you mustn't let people think about that in a meaningful way.
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
I agree that no matter what changes happen to airport security, it will not prevent this type of action. anything can be a weapon. i also agree that there should be sky marshals on every flight. but i also think another defense is to lock down the cockpits and train pilots NEVER to open the door in these situations. supposedly cockpit doors are locked and the terrorists lured the pilots out by killing passengers and flight attendents (god that is horrible). as awful as that is, control of the planes should NEVER be given over- no matter what.
of course, we can figure out exactly how to defend against this specific type of attack, but it might never happen again. there could already be thousands of evil, sub-human people living among us planning the next form of attack.
on a different note, i was vehemently opposed to carnivore until 9/11/2001. if carnivore could have helped prevent this from happening, i support it. i have no electronic communication that i need to hide that badly from snoopers. i already assume all of my phone calls and emails can be picked up anyway. big deal.
i also think we have a perfect example of a use for GPS, and face recognition technology. why wasn't it discovered instantly that these flights were off course? perhaps GPS could have helped alert us. i can also accept face recognition technology at places as high-profile as airports.
also, why do we have to wait for black boxes before we know what was said in the cockpit? why aren't we streaming live audio, perhaps video from every plane to mass storage facilities somewhere? we wouldn't even need to hold on to the tapes for more than a few days at a time.
again, most of this addresses the flight hijacking scenario, which may not ever be attempted in this way again. these are just a few of my thoughts. i feel more patriotism for my amazing country than ever before in my life. my heart, thoughts, and prayers are with everyone hit by this tragedy. America will stay strong, and we all know it. God Bless America.
afghanistan does NOT produce oil (actually their NUMBER ONE export is HEROIN, much of which ends up in the streets of NYC)...
Actually, the Taliban ordered the destruction of the poppy (?) fields used to produce heroin several months ago. They're gone, eradicated. It's the only good thing they've done AFAIK.
I believe that water cooling could have prevented the steel core from overheating. Keep this in mind when designing new skyscrapers.
I'll probably get flamed, but anyway my perception on this whole issue is that it simply NEEDS to be solved.
This isn't Vietnam as some people are concerned or try and make it appear as. We aren't fighting to help another country; we are fighting to put an end to violence and attacks against the United States as well as the MANY Democratic nations now in fear of terrorism. Our boys won't be helping another country fight its own wars. We will be united with other democratic nations eradication terrorism and terroristic countries.
People say the US supported Bin for his wars against Russia and therefore it is double standard for us to do anything against him, it isn't as if Bin laden hasn't done this against his own countries as well. Through the PBS.org website you can see a great interview with people familiar with Bin Laden who give his intriguing history of why nobody wants this man alive or in there country. Friends and foes never remain the same forever and just life friends and foes, politics and nations change.
Terrorism is a war. We are not going to "terrorize" Afghanistan, Syria or any Islamic/middle eastern country by making people fear for there life, we are going to send troops, jets, and yes BOMBS against the militants who use very very very cowardly acts as there way of fighting wars. Suicide is very cowardly, if you don't have the guts to face your enemies face to face and fight for what you believe is true then you are cowardly. These people who invoke terror and fear through suicidal bombings are cowards and at they same time they are militant people who need to be treated as a military and responded to accordinly.
It won't make us any better to make ends meat and try and justify our means to the militant anti American/anti democratic Islam nations to make everything better; they won't change their minds for generations to come. It will take fighting, it will take reform, and it will take power to get rid of terrorists and terroristic nations. Islam isn't politics it's religion. Western politics, beliefs and religion doesn't necesarily interfere with Islamic beliefs as a hole, but to people like Bin Laden and his followers, it is a holy war and thus the US needs to react to this WAR THREAT and either give in or DESTROY IT. Again, I know lots of Islamic people, I have worked with many; As a religion they don't hate Americans and infact they respect humans and life. It is just the belief of these militant groups that have anti American and western beliefs. So don't go knocking your islamic/middle eastern neighbors just because they're religion. They aren't the ones fighting the war against us.
We aren't going to aim for innocent people; we aren't going to aim to ruin governments WHO DON'T HARBOR OR SUPPORT TERRORISTS. We aren't enslaving people or fighting for religious beliefs, we are fighting for our freedoms and democracy. As long as we live in fear of terror and terrorism we will never truly have our freedoms and democracy.
War is what these militants want, war is what they will get. Had Bin Laden wanted political or religious means to end this fighting he could have worked that out. He *MUST* be eradicated EVEN IF IT WASN'T HE WHO DID THIS. There is no lesser of the evils when it comes to terrorist. They SHOULD ALL BE DESTROYED no matter what at what cost, since cost isn't an issue when regarded against our freedoms and humanity as a whole. The US will not justify its means based on religion and beliefs as these terrorists do against us. The US will justify it's war against terrorists and terrorism to protect our country and democracy across the world.
No man should live in fear for his beliefs, and no man should instill fear in others for his beliefs.
Apparently I'm not the only one wondering if Katz is planning to get his next book out of this. :-)
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Coordinates wouldn't do us any good at this point. We have no way to at Afghanistan yet. None of the countries that border on Afghanistan are our allies, and I doubt any of them yet have given us permission for plane or missile fly-overs. If we get enough evidence and unite the world behind us, then we'll be able to strike if necessary. We're not ready for that yet. Revenge is a dish best served cold and all that.
And I'd be a Libertarian, if they weren't all a bunch of tax-dodging professional whiners.
Berke Breathed
Hey, don't overlook the fact that some Atheists may have been killed in this as well. Read the following and consider this: If religion was not a factor, would we be in this mess?
"Attacks like these are not a good thing because Muslims live all over the world and Muslims may have been killed," Mr. Anwar said hesitantly. By his reckoning, Americans were enemies of Afghanistan, as were Jews and Christians. He thought about this a bit more and retracted it partially. "There must have been all kinds of people in the building, not just bad Jews but good Jews, not just bad Christians but good ones." He remembered something he had learned in his madrassa, or religious school. "It is un-Islamic to kill innocent people," he said.
Learn a little history please, christianity has certainly been spread at the barrel of a gun.
Wake up and smell the coffee, there is no God. The sooner we stop believing in magical fairy people the sooner we can start living in peace.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
A survivor from Tower 2 reported that on about the 40th floor, the building jumped about two feet, knocking many people out of their shoes, when the second plane struck.
Education is the silver bullet.
I've probably fired about 100 rounds of Glaser ammo over the years at the range, and I've never had a single round fragment in the barrel. It is more succeptable to damage than traditional ammo (particuarly oil contamination) and it does degrade with age, so it needs to be handled carefully and replaced frequently. (That explains why I've shot so much of it even though it's insanely expensive). For more info, read the FAQ [safetyslug.com].
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Oh, come on... and I suppose that 200-year-old document (your vaunted constitution) is irrelevant to modern discussions too?
Christ, by paying a little more attention to its own constitution, America could have avoided such things as the DMCA (this *is* Slashdot, after all)... and more on topic - could have avoided contributing to the creation of bin Laden, Pinochet and the like.
Sorry, this turned into a flame. But I think Franklin's statement is right on the money right now as the US and the rest of the world seeks a new balance between safety and liberty.
<sarcasm> Or perhaps you'd rather just turn the whole thing over to the Director of the CIA. He can tell us what freedoms will be allowed to persist in the post-WTC era. </sarcasm>
Im sure that somewhere, in the dark recesses of a government vault, there is a secret plan that outlines staging a terrorist attack on a US landmark, so federal officials can install the carnivore system unilaterally on American ISPs without complaint from the technologically knowlegeable.
yes, the government of Iraq deserve to be punished. However if you look at the historical view (this is a map of countries under sanction) of the effects of sanctions, the bottom line is that they never work, and the only thing which happens is the PEOPLE of the country are starved and bleed to death and routine infectious diseases are catastrohpic due to lack of medical facility and aid. (note that afghanistan cannot claim as much as other countries as they have done much of this to themselves: 40 percent of their doctors were women, who found themselves beggars when the Taliban gained control). people are starving and dying in Iraq. YES THIS IS SADDAM'S FAULT if that makes you feel better. but PEOPLE ARE STARVING AND DYING in Iraq. Over half a million CHILDREN have DIED who WOULD NOT HAVE DIED if these sanctions had not taken place. wake the FNK up.
i do NOT know what the US/UN/NATO/whomever is thinking. either go in and shoot saddam in the head and drop the FNKING embargo so the people can eat and have vaccinations. yes, saddam denies his people the offered aid and turns and tells them we do are denying it to them but what is the POINT is that the people (human beings, homo sapiens, you remember them?) are dying because we have our heads so FAR UP OUR ASSES we don't have a clue.
sorry, the events of the past few days have been building an anger in me which i cannot placate by yelling, screaming, sleeping, coding, punching, or typing, and i don't know what to do either.
-sam
The REAL sam_at_caveman_dot_org is user ID 13833.
Slightly OT for this thread, but I was thinking of this last night - there must have been thousands of cell phones in the WTC. Some of them might still be attached to people who might be alive, and they might be sending a signal.
Can they get equipment to locate cell phones, and thereby locate bodies or (hopefully) survivors in the wreckage?
And even then, they may not be able to overpower 5 guys with weapons (since shooting guns in the air is er, not a great idea)
Sky Marshalls were a bad idea for two reasons:
1) Previously, most hijackings resulted in a plane being flown to some other place, and then lots of demands being made, and eventually 99% of the hostages get released, if not 100%.
2) The FAA isn't a law enforcement organization and it's heads aren't good at managing a law enforcement organization.
So, you had armed men without clear, consistent policies, underfunded for training, and in a situation where drawing a gun and resisting was the wrong thing to do.
Now, however, we have a different situation; a hijacked plane must in the future be assumed to be a very large, very accurate cruise missile. It's actually better if somebody jumps up and cracks a window, crashing the plane immediately with all on board perishing, than that it crash into a building full of people.
Further, we can now justify, politically and economically, putting trained law enforcement officers in there, under the command of the US Marshall's service or the FBI, or the Secret Service, etc. They'd have the training, the will, and the policies to deal with situations better.
Further, we have a tiny handful of Sky Marshalls. There wasn't a single one on any of these planes. We can jump that percentage up, put a hell of a lot more of them up there.
In 1942 after the attack on Pearl Harbor, over 100 thousand people of Japanese ancestry (most were American citizens) were forcibly removed from their homes on the west coast to concentrations camps located in desolate locations. Such was the hysteria and fear at that time. This was the worst abuse of our Constitution in the history of the USA.
Robert Wilson (Nobel prize winner and 1st Director of Fermilab/FNAL) was asked at a congressional hearing whether the acelerator had any value in terms of national security. Wilson replied "...It has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to make it worth defending."
America's strength and determination is considerable. We will defend this country. However, we must make sure that it is a country worth defending.
Personally, i want to thank everyone donating to the redcross at amazon.com and everyone helping in anyway possible they can.
Not only will the red cross be there to support the families and people in NYC, it will be there through any distastor small or large.
One of these days i may need the support of red cross, or any one of us for that matter. Thanks for making your contribution.
http://www.amazon.com
http://www.paypal.com
What happens when you find out god doesn't exist?
Lowmag.net
A second debris site, 6 to 8 miles from the original crash site of the Somerset county plane has been found. This does not jive with what we know now.
The thinking now is that an A) explosive device went off on the plane or B) we shot it down. Dont be so horrified by this second possibility. Its better than it crashing into another populated building. Read the article. Its amazing.
I don't see how that's morbid at all. If they'd toppled over sideways it'd have been just as bad for the people inside, but much worse for the people who'd gotten out and happened to be on the wrong side of the towers. Not to mention the structural damage to adjacent buildings, which the engineers might have been more concerned about (assuming, perhaps, that people would be well evacuated by the time the collapse happened).
Thinking again, I do see how discussing this in such detail could be construed as morbid. But this is a real issue for future engineering, and it's been made very important by the recent tragedy.
It's obvious that the engineers were extremely meticulous with the physical properties of the building as a whole, but perhaps more lives could have been saved if they had devoted more space to emergency exits?
-- If no truths are spoken then no lies can hide --
This is a touchy topic, so stop reading here if speculation about the legal implications will bother you.
Time and again, I hear politicians from the mayor of NY to congress to the president refering to this as an act of war (see the president's most recent remarks).
There's a problem with this. If this was an act of war, it cannot, by definition be a federal crime, no?
What's more, if this was an act of war, anyone we "capture" is a prisoner of war, and we must obey the terms of the Geneva Convention and other international treaties. They will have to be re-patriated after the conflict, or brought before an international court for war crimes, NOT tried for federal crimes in the U.S.
Now, I can see the attack on the WTC being called out as a war crime, but if we treat this as an act of war, the Pentagon was a valid military target, and the attack on that building was legal (the point could even be made that Bin Laden had made it quite clear that he had declared war on the U.S. before the attack, unlike the Japanese who had tried but failed to do so before Pearl Harbor). The use of a commercial airline to do it is obviously not acceptable, but I'm not sure how much weight that will carry in a war crimes tribunal.
What I'm trying to say is that we've painted ourselves a very restrictive map here. There's no such thing as "murder" in the criminal sense in an act of war. There's only international treaty on the rules of war.
Now, I'm not a lawyer (I hate the acronym), and I could be wildly off-base here, but is this just short-sightedness or have we decided that the support that we get from the international community as a result of an act of war outweighs our desire to bring these criminals (soldiers?) to trial? Or, are we just planning to ignore international law, and bring anyone we capture to trial anyway?
If the impacts had been lower, the structure could have stayed up much longer, and firefighting efforts would be much easier...
But few perople would be able to get out...
I will have to report to the airport very early then.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
I was wrong. Sorry, I spend more time at Janes than I do Yahoo Finance. However...
m
Looking at Unocal's website will turn up
"Unocal reiterates position on withdrawal from trans-Afghanistan pipeline project 2/16/99 "
http://www.unocal.com/uclnews/99news/021699.htm
"Unocal statement on withdrawal from the proposed Central Asia Gas (CentGas) pipeline project 12/10/98"
http://www.unocal.com/uclnews/98news/centgas.ht
It's a vaporware of a pipeline...and it's not that prime of a location
People were complacent - because they knew billions was being spent on Carnivore & Echelon for just this sort of problem.
Terrorists know they are being looked for by Carnivore and will get around it by other measures.
When not planning face to face - they would use personal couriers.
Perhaps give mobile for single message when required - just using message - go with plan a / b or abort.
I have always said - terrorism is just the excuse they use, the US to raise funds for Carnivore - the UK to justify R.I.P. bill - to spy on the people.
Government want a surveillance society.
The simple solution to trademark and domain name problem is hidden by authorities - WIPO.org.uk
CNN has been known on many occasions to get the news wrong, or fabricate stories (Wolf Blitzer).
However, this time, they are reporting the truth. www.haaretzdaily.com , one of Israel's better independent newspapers also reported this story, and took photos on site, from the past few days, not 1991.
The story at Indymedia was posted by a Brazilian. I think I'll trust sources in Israel instead of someone in South America, Thank You very much.
The Israeli's have armed troops on every internal flight, and it has acted as a deterent so far.
Yes they do, and in plainclothes.
Microsoft have donated $10 Million dollars to the red cross. Here's the article
For example, it was the CIA that trained Osama Bin Laden in terrorist techniques in order to fight the then current Bad Guys(tm) - the USSR. The Soviet's were occupying Afghanistan, and the US found a nice wealthy Saudi to train, who in turn used his wealth to recruit and train his followers. They then "liberated" Afghanistan from Soviet occupation - which is why the Taliban allowed him refuge when he allegedly bombed US embassies. He was a US tool to fight Communism. When the Soviets pulled out, he was a hero. Then, like all the others the US created (in Panama, Columbia, Iraq, etc) he turned on the US when it was over and found himself in a position of power and respect (in the Islamic community at least).
The very first thing the government should do - without using any inflamatory language - shut down the CIA's training programs for foreign military leaders/organizations. Stop the training of terroristic techniques to South Americans as part of the "War on Drugs" - we're only creating more and more future Bad Guys!
I AM, therefore I THINK!
Idiots.
Liberty in your lifetime
A terrific book that talks about the collision of the B-29 against the Empire State Building is Mario Salvadoris "Why Buildings Fall Down", it's a terrific book.
Chris DiBona
Co-Editor, Open Sources
Open Source Program Manager, Google, Inc.
I seriously doubt your assertions that the fuel tanks would have gone out the other side of the building if they were filled with foam. That was a very big airplane traveling at high speed into a big immmovable object. If you want to convince me otherwise, build lots of finite element models of the airplane and building, run some tests, and get back to me.
Fuel cells in cars are easy since they are usually a simple geometric shape and are small. The fuel tanks in airplanes are large, integral parts of the structure and not so simple of a shape.
I don't think you can ever build a fuel tank for a n aircraft that will not rupture in a crash if the airplane is still intended to be light enough to fly.
I *am* a mechanical engineer working in the aerospace industry. (Formerly Boeing, now Lockheed Martin)
the pilots already have a "panic button" in the event of a skyjacking. This could easily also put the plane irreversibly on automatic pilot, or remote piloting, to ensure that the vehicle -could- not be used in this way, and WOULD land safely at the nearest suitable emergency runway.
That's a good idea, but I've got one better: A "terrorist" button. Drops ONLY the oxygen masks for the pilot & copilot, then fills the entire aircraft with a gas that puts all on board to sleep. Place these buttons in secure areas around the plane and train flight attendants to use them. Also, make sure the cockpit doors stay locked - maybe strengthen them. If all hell breaks loose back there, they can put everyone to sleep and make an emergency landing somewhere.
Of course, then you get into a situation where the hijackers bring gas masks. Perhaps you could add very strong cockpit doors, and/or some sort of a system that stuns anyone who gets near the cockpit after the gas has been released.
-Ryan, with the unoriginal sig
Although I agree that the US should have gotten into WW2 alot earlier than it did, before Pearl Harbor, the US was doing everything short of sending men to fight to help Britain. Massive amounts of supplies, shipping and other logisitical help. basically, PH was the last event that broke the chain holding the US back.
Quando Omni Flunkus Moritati
From: http://www.techtv.com/screensavers/showtell/story/ 0,23008,3347294,00.html
The New York American Red Cross is in dire need of technology equipment and services. The field workers and sites have little, if any, means of communication and the central office is processing way too much on completely paper systems. Your help in acquiring these resources would be greatly appreciated.
If you can help, please contact:
Joe Leo, Assistant Director, Business Applications, IT
American Red Cross in Greater New York
phone: 212.875.2409
email: jleo@arcgny.org
150 Amsterdam Avenue
New York, NY 10023
PLEASE NOTE: His email is slammed, so don't resend your messages over and over again.
Following is the list of equipment that the Red Cross needs for its field workers and expanded Emergency Operations Centers. It also needs certified Citrix engineers and Microsoft-certified consultants.
40 IBM computers and laptops (with NICs)
Monitors (with desktops)
Any storage solutions
25 10/100 hubs (8+ Ports)
100 Cat5 cables (All lengths)
50 power strips
Any IBM-compatible memory
Any 3Com wireless NIC cards and LAN products
30 desktop-size UPSs
15 LaserJet printers (HP 1100 or faster) and printer supplies
20 external Zip drives and disks
Any diskettes and R/W CDs
5 external CD burners
5 duplex document scanners
25 extension cords
any colored tie wraps
any Velcro cable wraps
50 Citrix client licenses
12 PCMCIA LAN cards for IBM P20 ThinkPads, preferably 3Com (in addition to those in the new PCs)
50 Microsoft Exchange CALs
35 Microsoft SQL CALs
50 Microsoft Office Professional licenses
15 PC Anywhere licenses
DSL lines
PDAs with wireless capacity and service
Nextel cellphones and service
Thanks in advance for your generous assistance. Any donation will help greatly.
We might have changed our policies in the ways you suggest before this happened. That is no longer even a remote possibility.
Indeed, despite a great deal of pro-israeli press in the United States the Palestinians have (or, after their public displays following these events, most likely had) gained a great deal of sympathy. So much so that our government was moving in the direction of supporting the Palestinians and criticizing Israel. It is likely those criticism would have grown more harsh, up to and including a shift in our alliance. If such a fundamental policy could change, it is almost certain that other polices could have as well, and probably would have with time. That possibility is, of course, no longer even remotely in existence.
Ditto for just about every other "change" you would like to see. This is war, and contrary to many posts here, we are very, very good at prosecuting wars. "But we can't see the enemy" you say. Ah, but we can see their supporters: those who give them aid, comfort, logistical support, and, ultimately, a place to go back to and mount their next operation. It is a myth that these people can operate without the support of some country which, in turn, can be obliterated using contentional (and some not-so-conventional) technqiues. These countries are now on notice that they are, in our eyes, precisely equal to the terrorist organizations which engaged in these atrocities.
(as an example of what happens to terrorist organizations when they lose a base of operations and the willingness of nations to harbor them consider Carlos the Jackal, who operating with the support and help of the eastern block and even the KGB until the CIA, working with Massad, successfully convinced his supporters he had betrayed them. Ultimately he and his organization lost every safe harbor, every possible retreat. Those who weren't killed now enjoy the hospitality of maximum security prisons and, undoubtably, the dubiouse joys of anal intercours among their fellows).
Just like world wars I and II, and other wars we have fought, the enemy has used guerilla tactics, sabatage, and other asymetrical means of attack in addition to conventional attack. And, just like in those wars, we will decimate the enemy and, most likely, require unconditional surrender before ending hostilities.
There will be no truce, no peace, no change until those who perpetrated and those who supported these acts are either defeated or dead.
You haven't seen America at war. No one has seen America at war since 1945. Police actions and other misguided efforts at gunboat foreign policies aside (and I disagree with most if not all of the American government's past foreign policies as much as you do) were not wars by our definitions at all, media hype and political gloating (on every side) aside.
You are, however, about to see America at war for the first time in 56 years, against an enemy we most certainly will find and will kill. Despite my fiery rhetoric of a couple of days ago (I said then I'd regret spouting off, and of course I do -- one often says things in the heat of rage one doesn't mean, later, in the more rational light of day, and I really do not want to see this go nuclear, though I suspect it very well may before all is said and done) I am not happy about this. It is a tragedy, but it is also a necessity: the time has come to employ the hardest, most difficult, and harshest strategies. It isn't about being nice, or building a better world, or "finding a fair solution," or even about justice. It is about winning, by whatever means required, with whatever strategies necessary.
No one asked for this war, but it is nevertheless here as of two days ago. We will prosecute it without mercy and without restraint, our enemies will be crushed by whatever means necessary, for however long it takes, and we will unequivocably win, by whatever means are required. This includes each and every country giving these vermin aid and comfort and, don't kid yourself, we do have the power and the ability to do this, and we most certainly have the will to do this.
Once we have destroyed the enemy we can talk about your reforms. Until then, I suggest staying out of our way.
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
>God does exist. The fact that you are reading this is proof enough.
Explain why this makes sense.
The sole purpose of the Internet is to get porn and bomb making plans into the hands of children.
Preliminary reports are that NOBODY escaped from above the floors the planes hit, that means (110 - 60) + (110 - 90) = 70 floors full of people that were trapped. Hitting lower, say the 25th floor, would have shut the floors off in the same way, and would have been too high for anyone to safely jump from.
The "experts" I've heard have said that the buildings very likely (95%) would have withstood the original crash and could possibly have been repaired. What they ALL agree on is that the main (some say the sole) cause of the collapse is the fire. If you look at the photos of building 1, there's a hole through the corner, on two adjoining sides. It's a fairly minor hit compared to building 2. But in building 1, opposite the crash site, there are pictures of an inferno, a bright red stripe, running the whole length of the floor. This fire, completely covering a floor, and touching all the external supports, is what brought the building down.
Now, given that the two buildings were hit thirty floors apart, and the one hit lower fell over in less time, I'd pretty much say that the expert you quote is an unmittigated idiot.
Not only is thirty floors too much of a difference to say "exactly where to hit it..." but it's obvious that the building hit lower was more damaged.
I'm willing to concede that the lower hit was MUCH more damaging, taking out the whole side and half of two other sides, of external supports, but this simply shows that the building, if all it's supports are destroyed, WILL fall over, regardless of where the supports are destroyed.
There is some question on the exact crash-worthiness of these buildings, but you shouldn't call anyone an idiot until you make sure you're right, and in this case, simply examining the public available photos would have disproven much of what you and your precious expert have said.
I'm not enough of an expert to make my own claims as to specifically why the buildings were weakened in certain ways, but I know enough and am able to use the available information to see that many of the so-called experts are dead wrong.
(Similar to the "expert" pilots who claim the terrorists had to be airliner certified... As someone pointed out, the pilots would have flown them to their target city, as they expected to be allowed to land. And once you can see your target, hitting it is trivial. I have flown a cessna (just doing some basic slow turns) and I found it easier than driving a car. Considering Boeing jetliners are among the most stable and easy to pilot in the world, often claimed to be much easier to handle than a personal prop plane, I imagine a child could have hit the towers.)
Steel (and Iron for that matter) have a number of differenty possible crystal structures, which vary widely in the strentgh, maleability and brittleness. The rusting rate also changes, but that is not interesting in this context, but it is for the design of blades and tooling. The oldest way to change the crystal structure of iron or steel is to heat it up to a certain temperature, then cool it in a controlled way. Fast cooling leads to a hard brittle structure, slower cooling leads to a more malleable structure. Heat the surface and cool it quickly and you've got case-hardened metal in hand. The key thing to remember is (as any blacksmith has experienced at some time or other) iron gets brittle before it gets to the cherry red stage.
I assume that there was both heat-related sag and a brittle region beyond that as you moved farther from the hottest flames. So, it is possible that the metal did, in fact, get brittle and snap in the heat, along with the sagging, leading to a sudden pancake type collapse.
Who would have thought that you needed to plan for hundreds or thousands of gallons of aircraft fuel when sizing fire supression gear in a tower?
As reported in today's WashPost Style Section, The Coup has changed the artwork.
For those really not familiar with US history, during this time period the British army had won just about every major military battle up to this point, General Benedict Arnold had just defected with many soldiers to the British, and most of the rest of his army was just about to leave because their enlistment was just about expired. To be honest, this was a critical period in US history becuase the very existance of the United States of America was truly in jeapordy, and even George Washington was considering to throw in the towel.
The following is in his words:
To be fair to the USA (and I have been harsh on them over the last couple of days) this is simply not true.
Japan did not unconditionally surrender until after the second bomb.
A plutonium bomb was tested a month earlier in New Mexico. Yup, it worked.
Pearl Harbor was just the beginning. Perhaps you forgot the rest of the America / Japan fighting? Three and a half years passed between the two events...
I don't think even Japanese history books are quite that inaccurate.
At the Pentagon, Defense officials said 126 persons are missing. This is far lower than previous estimates. ("The Army is missing 21 military, 47 civilian, and six contractor personnel. Navy officials report they are missing 33 sailors and nine civilians. Other defense agencies reported a total of 10 persons still unaccounted for as well.")
There are bullets that can work on airplanes already. They were originally designed for air marshalls, go figure. Right now many, many people use them for protection that live in apartments or condos. It looks like a normal bullet but has a resin filled tip. Inside the resin are BBs, like small shotgun shot. When the bullet hits an object the resin shatters and dissipates the force.
They won't go through the steel of a plane, but will kill you. For someone at home they'll get an intruder but the resin shatters when it hits drywall and greatly reduces the effect.
They come in almost every caliber and work in any gun.
Obviously, you don't know enough about guns. ;-)
The Glaser Safety Slug was invented specifically for use on aircraft by Air Marshals.
"I ain't 'nobody,' dork....right?"
I think someone made a comment in another thread about using a different kind of bullet called "Frangible bullets" that can hurt flesh, but will break apart when they hit something solid.
There have apparently been a couple of building evacuations this morning, and there is currently a certain amount of police/fire-dept activity in midtown. I'm going to hope this stuff is nothing more than precaution.
Unfortunately, the WTC-site seems to be a news black hole, even when nothing is actually happening on site. How many people heard that Israel has been running major manuevers in the West Bank? I only caught this at the bottom of the BBCs page. I would like to know what's going on elsewhere, especially if it's in Manhattan.
Keep those donations coming! Very impressive, the donation volume.
sulli
RTFJ.
(I'm not doubting you at all, I just don't get it.)
www.lucernesys.comHorizon: Calendar-based personal finance
If you'd read my post, I indicated that my problem with Browne's comments was his timing, not neccessarily his message.
Next time, read the post, please.
Call it my contrarian nature, but amidst all the usual self-centered-libertarian-police-state-paranoia, I feel compelled to point out that loss of privacy is not necessarily loss of liberty. Nowhere is it guaranteed even in the US constitution; never has it been established that privacy actually produces a freer society; and in practice the idea that you can actually have privacy is a total myth. David Brin makes a good case in his for all of this and more in his controversial The Transparent Society (chapter one available here). His core arguement is for complete transparency - that all citizens should be allowed to observe the activities of individuals, government, and business - rather than the alternative of those having the power to do so using surveillance to their private advantage. While you'll almost certainly have objections, it's well worth consideration, and it's always worth it to look at things from an alternative perspective.
---If you can't trust a nerd, who can you trust?
Two Points:
One, I think it an absurd trvialization to classify curbside check-in as an essential liberty.
Two, you are indulging in fatuously binary thinking: these terrorists could not have been stopped by any but the most draconian security measures, therefore all security measures are useless.
There was a period in the 70's when planes were being hijacked on a monthly if not weekly basis. These hijackings stopped (for the most part) when airlines universely implemented the security measures we are now familiar with, including the placment of armed sky marshalls on random flights.
Just because there is a small pool of terrorists you cannot deter doesn't mean you can ignore the much larger pool of potential hijackers that you can deter.
I also believe that taking over airplanes with box cutters and razor blades has just become a lot more unlikely. You can intimidate people with very simple weapons as long folks beleive that by going along with you, they have good odds of surviving. Most hijackings have ended with many of the passengers being safely released, so folks were reasonably reluctant to challenge hijackers despite outnumbering them 20 to 1. This week's disaster has re-written the hijacking "script" so
I suspect that the next hijacker who tries to take over a plane with anything less then explosives or automatic weapons is going to get beaten to death.
Well, again we meet speculations, speculations and speculations on why WTC collapsed. Well, a previous /. news had a much better link on the whys of the towers going down the way they did. Apart of technicities and maybes let's put a clear point on this story:
The towers went down because they should have done that.
Yes it is horrible that thousands of lifes died on it. But just imagine what would have happened if the tower's security would me made more on standing up and not on falling down. Note that these two objectives cannot be equally achieved in the same level. If one makes a construction stronghold, then it would risk to see things falling from 400 meters over God knows where. On the contrary, if one would make a structure that easily falls down under the first serious weakness, then forget about strenghts.
The people who built WTC made a marvelous construction and we could see it in the way it went down. And be thankful to them for that. If not, just imagine that tower flying down over people who were hundreds of meters away. Imagine the HUGE fire that could break down in lower Manhattan. Note that, under the circumstances of the tragedy, a larger distribution of fire could easily create what is known to some experts as "fire front".
Fire fronts are things that usually remind tales of nuclear wars. But they are real and they happened. They happened in Roterdam in 1940. They were also the cause of the horrible destruction of Dresden in the end of the war. Fire fronts are fires that come up due to large temperatures and streets creating aerodynamical high-speed air currents. In fact, when the second tower went down I was really afraid that we could have got that thing. However the very local fall managed to cut the chances for fire to create a large surface, the main condition for a fire front.
So instead of blaming constructors and think on securities, shoulds, shouldn'ts, maybes and whatifs, maybe you should stop a little and thank those guys for having made a real secure construction. When they did that, no one could even imagine that hijacked airplanes would stuck fullspeed on the construction... Thank God that even after that the "critical fire plan" worked and we didn't have half Manhattan turned into a oven.
A fourth option, which nobody even seems to have considered, would be to raise the wages of the people who screen baggage above those who flip burgers, in the hope of attracting better quality people, and retaining them for longer than a fortnight. But of course, that would not be consistent with "maximum shareholder returns".
-- the most controversial site on the Web
That's why you hire the smartest, toughest people around and train them to hell and back. Air Marshalls must be of the same calibre as Delta Force, British SAS, Israeli Mossad, etc. They should be paid as well as the pilots, given the best training & equipment possible, and the authority to act as required. Air Marshall isn't a job for an out-of-shape, minimally trained security guard -- they must be an elite force equal to or better than the best units in the military & law enforcement.
You can't ever guarantee that they won't be overwhemled or outmatched and disarmed -- but by selecting the best of the best and giving them the element of suprise you minimize that risk, and that's the best you can do. It's a lot more difficult to disarm a highly trained commando than it is to smuggle a plastic knife on to the plane and bully a bunch of soccer moms and stockbrokers into submission.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
Shocked, but unfortunately not exactly surprised.
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
Well just a curious thing. I and some friends look for several times over the films on the second plane. Besides we crashed several times over WTC. Yes it is a simple flight simulator but it gives some interesting ideas on how things could have happened. And came into some conclusions...
1. The bastard should have had REAL flight hours. Very real flight hours. He managed to level the inertia of the plane and stuck it directly to WTC over a not so clear sight. He should have piloted that or a similar plane for some good time.
2. I wonder if he was not a civil pilot with civil training but a pilot with some warfighting knowledge. It is hard to make that turn he did in the last moment. Besides, it's more propper for a warfighting pilot to do such things rather than a civil pilot having a civil training and accustomed to a civil airliner.
So a warning to you people and specially those used to see blockbusters with russians, arabs, chinese or latins saying AAAAARRGGHHHSSS and UUUURRRRRGGHS. Forget your Van Dams, Schwarzneggers and Stallones. Forget even the stereotypes who are used to about blacks, yellows or not-so-white. This new enemy is much more smart well-prepared and trained to kick our ass than ever before. This new evil is a soldier with an higher education than 90% of us and speaks several languages and pilots airplanes as a professional. This new enemy has a moral that is more deadly than every nuke we can think of.
We can win him only if we are stronger than him.
May be redundant, but this is worth reading. I can only hope I'll have the presence of mind to do this.
sulli
RTFJ.
Once again the terrorists and their allies and supporters fail to understand how badly they have misjudged us. This is not a time for punitive actions, this is not a time for air raids, this is not a time for selective strikes.
This is War. Break out the guns, load the artillery, move the main battle tanks into the cargo holds. Arm the nuclear missiles. Position the chemical weapons.
We are at war, we are determined in this respect. We want no "justifiable" or "reciprocal" reactions - we will unleash a terrible vengeance, a horror that will make all that came before it seem like a dream.
This was the mistake of the Japanese - they thought us weak, unresolved, diffuse, scattered. But we are not those things - and we are very determined that it is now war.
When did it happen? Was it the first plane hitting the first building? Was it the second plane? Was it when the Pentagon was attacked, when they planned for the White House? Was it when the first building collapsed in fire and fury? Was it the second, or the third?
Somewhere betwixt those we, the American people, moved from being a peaceful people concerned about terrorism who would use legal and ordinary means to arrest them, to our current state when we became at war with all those who planned or assisted in this, and all who shelter them or stop us from our frightful vengeance which shall know no limit.
For have no illusions, those in the rest of the world - we are at War. Putin, your offer is accepted, as are all offers of aid and assistance by all nations - but know that we are not going to stop where you would wish us to - for we are at War - and shall not be dissuaded.
Will Affleck-Asch
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
rm -rf /bin/laden
On the other hand, even if a beserk passanger got hold of a stun gun, there's little they could do which would be fatal or permanently disabling. That would be doubly important in the panic of a skyjack. Give 100+ terrified people lethal weapons and you're unlikely to get much more than mince to the ground.
Again, though, even if 100+ people fired totally randomly with stun devices or potent knock-out darts, then even if every passenger got hit, they'd just be snoozing for the rest of the flight. Big deal.
As for the gas defence, there are some gasses (SF6 springs to mind, only because I'm familiar with it) which are, to all intents and purposes, undetectable and inert, but which would knock a person out within a minute or two. They'd never know what was happening, and so would be unlikely to retaliate.
Undetectable is important. As was noted in a prior post, if you have a bunch of armed psychos, and it's obvious they're not going to succeed, then it's reasonable to assume they'll not succeed in some very very messy ways.
Inert is also important. It must be impossible for someone using a laptop, a cell-phone, or any other electronic equiptment, to accidently blow the plane out the sky, from a single spark.
Hmmm. I think truncheons, clubs and other "primitive" weapons would be potentially still too dangerous, in the event of someone breaking into where they're kept overhead, but as a "temporary" solution, until more effective means could be found, they'd probably be the airlines' best bet. Cheap, easy to install, and not too heavy.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
> I'd say it's time to outlaw religion and save
> some lives
Another country/political ideology tried that about eighty years ago; if you haven't heard, it didn't work out.
-- "In order to have power, I must be taken seriously." -Mojo Jojo
There have been Islamic mosques attacked in the US by vigilantees. Two incidents in my metro area today.
r ie s2/469307_mosque.html
r ie s2/469117_mosque12e.html
http://www.dallasnews.com/attack_on_america/sto
http://www.dallasnews.com/attack_on_america/sto
I promised an Islamic friend at work that if there begin to be efforts to profile Islamic/Arabic members of the population(as there was during WW2 with the Japanese population, and some of them even sent off to camps) that at least myself and my household would vehemntly protest to anyone who would listen and a few who wouldn't.
I fear this is just the beginning.
Steven
-- I have marked myself unwilling to moderate-- I don't have other accounts to artificially inflate the karma of
I am firmly of the opinion that we will want and need every willing back, every strong hand in friendship, every erg and dyne of support we can get in this conflict.
This is not a conflict that calls for a measured, careful response.
This is a conflict that calls for an overwhelming, careful response, and a continued commitment.
The enemy has billed this as a war of cultural annihilation. Either they remove us, or we will remove them.
They have defined the goals of the conflict. The enemy is just as vulnerable to these objectives as we are. More so, in fact. The enemy builds his force on ignorance, on the Big Lie.
The enemy's greatest fear is that the prosperity of the West will seduce the generation after this one. That the memories of old blood feuds will fade when presented with McDonald's and computers and cheap cell phones. Every call they make to recruit is against the decadence of the West destroying their way of life.
This should be our stated objective. To destroy their way of life. Never forget this; this is their stated objective against us.
After we punish the enemy with bombs, with bullets, we must salt the soil that the twisted tree of intolerance and fanaticism takes root in. We must change the hearts and minds of the young.
We salt them with small computers. With internet access. With a telephone in every village. With juvenile novels and encyclopedias translated into Arabic. With teachers who speak their language, and who teach them to use these tools to answer questions for themselves. Yes, some of those teachers will be killed. They are soldiers in this war as much as anyone who puts on a beret or takes up a gun, and we will make martyrs of them for the world.
No tyrant can long survive with an informed and educated populace.
The organizations they declaim as the mouthpieces of the US shall be USED as the mouthpieces of the west. We tell their children that there is a life beyond substistence farming and blood feuds. We tell their wives and daughters that there is a life where they are valued as individuals and people in their own right, not as mutilated chattel.
We give them the tools of bilateral communication, rather than unilateral indoctrination. We give them the internet. We declare a great work, of making sure that every corner of this globe has access to fast internet access. Not just the US. Not just Europe. The world.
They will see pornography sites. They will also see sites discussing engineering, and simple improvements to agriculture. Some may even see this mailing list. The curiousity of children will be piqued, and their questions answered. With each question asked, and each answer given, we slowly wean them away from the culture of intolerance.
They'll be able to ask questions without censure or censoring, and get answers they might not otherwise have.
I would sooner carpet bomb with Gameboys and Pokemon, and an Arabic translation of Monopoly or Delta V, than FAEs and nuclear explosives. The adults are beyond our reach. The young MUST be reached so that 20 years from now, the thought of piloting a captured airliner into an office building full of innocent bystanders meets with truly universal horror.
I fear, in the haste for vengeance, that the nature of this conflict will be forgotten. Make no bones about it -- this is a culture war. It can only end with a declaration on the order of Cartago Delendo Est.
We cannot win this war with bombs or bullets, although we can accelerate its prosecution by those means. We can only win this war through a generational conflict; we must win the war in the hearts and minds of the children growing up in the Middle East now.
Winning that longer war will be costlier and less immediately gratifying than cluster bombs and Fuel Air Explosives, and "killing the bastards and everyone that helped them.", but it is a war that all of us can participate in.
If you are an author, or someone who creates media, contact your publisher about translating your works into Arabic. Someone in the DoD is in charge of outbound propaganda; we should find who that person is, and give them the munitions to win this war.
Bin-Ladin has declared this a culture war.
Let's show him what a culture war TRULY looks like. Let's send in Shakespeare. And Heinlein. And Harlequin Romances, Pokemon and The Simpsons.
Iranian democracy is far from perfect, but that's the whole point of those trying to reform it.
Danny
I have written over 900 book reviews
When those who are economically powerful are in a position to use
their power to wrest privileged rights for themselves, then among the
economically weak there will grow up a corresponding opposition to
these privileges; and this opposition must as soon as it has grown
strong enough lead to revolutionary disturbances. If the existence of
a special province of rights makes it impossible for such privileged
rights to arise, then disturbances of this sort cannot occur...
(Rudolf Steiner - Social Threefolding, 1920)
http://home.earthlink.net/~johnrpenner/Articles
'Peace is not an absence of war, it is a virtue,
a state of mind; a disposition for benevolence, trust
and justice.' (Spinoza)
'Peace is a habit of mind, a way of seeing, that will make
harmony suceed. We have made mistrust and coercion our habit
of mind, and built our civilisation on the balance of power,
therefore we will reap war after war, and there will be violence
in our streets and even in our schools and homes.'
(Eknath Easwaran, Three Harmonies, Parabola Magazine,
November 1991, p. 50)
regards,
http://home.earthlink.net/~johnrpenner
--
Welp, there ya go - always good to get a first hand account.
You didn't say how the accuracy was, though. Decent?
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
Would it make sense to make a standard operating procedure that if a hijacking seems immenent, even highly possible, the crew should dump almost all the fuel... leave just enough for getting the nearest landable airport. This procedure might inhibit the ability of terrorists to obtain flying bombs.
Miko O'Sullivan
More than 1,200 IBM customers were located in the World Trade Center or within a two-block radius.
Hundreds of them have contacted IBM since Tuesday morning. Currently, IBM is managing or has already resolved 20 full-blown emergency situations. IBM is rolling in large servers, thousands of ThinkPads and workstations; IBM is providing thousands of square feet of data center capacity; re-creating data processing environments that were destroyed; and relocating customers' operations to IBM facilities. In addition, IBM employees are helping various disaster relief organizations with IBM products and assistance. Thousands of IBMers are on the case, and the work proceeds around the clock.
On second thought, it is worth my time: there is value in pointing out poor reasoning whereever it exusts, so be prepared to see your post ripped post to shreds by very simple logical arguments, instead of the drivel you seem to spout so easily...
1st example: you state your opinion that "religion is a method of brainwashing." I think it would be quite a bit more accurate to state that "religion as a whole is believing that there are higher powers than mortal mankind", and that "any given religion is a attempt by people to put rational language to that belief." By the way, the belief in some kind of God seems to be a core part of most people's world view, although not yours. At least in my case, coercion was not been part of the process that led me to be a believer.
You continue: "Yet everyday we pass buildings built by those who are essentially cultists. These buildings a meeting halls for people who believe an internally inconsistent set of beliefs that culminates in an omnipotent being creating the entire universe, for humanity, specifically their fellow believers, who then gets petulent when his tiny creations don't worship in the exact ways specified..." Does it occur to you that people may have an internally and externally consistent beliefs, and that many people (myself included) do not believe God to be petulant in any way shape or form, else that being would not be a God whom we could believe in.
By the way, being in a particular type of building (specifically a church) does not define a person as being a cultist any more than saying that using a computer automagically makes a person a technologist or being in a automobile car automagically makes a person into a race car driver. Since our country has laws based on a the U.S. Constitution, you are free to disbelieve, but I am also free to believe, and practice my beliefs so long as they remain within the constraints of societal law. Most "cults" do not remain within those constraints.
Again, I quote from your post: "A bunch of sick people acting in direct contrast to what a rational view of reality would suggest is NOT something we should sit back and accept as normal." Oops.. You just committed another logical fallacy by excluding the possibility that rational people can also be religious, another logical fallacy, like saying "the sky is blue, my eyes are blue, therefore anyone whose eye's aren't blue can't possibly see the sky..."
It is just as much brainwashing and dishonest indoctrination to to insist that our educational systems teach that atheism is somehow more rational and therefore "good", "right", or "normal" than religious belief, is it not? I think most people who know me would say that I am at least as intelligent and rational as the next person, and I can easily be proven to be a useful member of society, even though I believe in God.
You continue "This indoctrination hurts us all by raising people unable to cope with reality without retreating into their fantasy world. It raises people who act in a manner that is insane when viewed by someone who hasn't been similarly brainwashed." Hmm. I wonder what you would say if you were trapped in the WTC explosions and I was the only person who could help you get down the stairs and told you that it was my "God-given duty to help you get out of the building alive." Would you so glibly accuse me of retreating into fantasy then? True beliefs don't allow a retreat-- they obligate the owner of those beliefs to act.
I guess my point is that people who promote terrorism by mingling religion in with it are sick, not every person who believes in any religion, anywhere.
Contrary to your own beliefs (which are guaranteed to be at least partially false on the basis of logic: you can't disprove the existence of God, can you?), hatred is the enemy of all people, not religion. Seeking to control or make a profit by taking advantage of others is the enemy of all people, and I will readily and sadly acknowledge that many so-called churches and preachers are so corrupted that they fail in their essential mission: teaching people to co-operate peacefully in lifting their fellow man. This one message is the essence and goal of almost every major and minor religious system of thought.
So if you don't mind, I'll try to become a better person based on my beliefs, and work with and teach my family and friends who are like minded to be good people, and you? All I can suggest is that if you want to preach atheism, you at least learn to do a better, more logical job of it.
...Open Source isn't the only answer -- but it's almost always a better value than the alternatives...
It was Karl Marx
--
E_NOSIG
To: IBM Colleagues
From: L.V. Gerstner, Jr.
Subject: Update on Tuesday's Events
Dear Colleague:
I want to update you on where we are and what we've done since Tuesday's
tragic events.
First, and most important, we have accounted for all but a handful of our IBM
colleagues who might have been in New York City or Washington, D.C., when
the terrorists struck. Of course, we will not stop until we have accounted for
every one of our people. I know each of us is hoping and praying for a good
outcome.
Sadly, as we have reported on w3, we received confirmation on Wednesday
that one of our colleagues was aboard one of the hijacked airliners. I know
all of us are deeply grieved by this news. In addition, we have been learning
of IBMers whose family members were killed or injured. Moments ago, I
heard from an IBM colleague whose daughter was also on one of the hijacked
planes.
Words fail to convey my sadness when I hear such devastating news, but on
behalf of all IBMers worldwide, I wish to express our condolences to the
family and friends of all those who have lost loved ones.
Let me update you on what we are doing to help customers. You may be
surprised to learn that more than 1,200 IBM customers were located in the
World Trade Center or within a two-block radius. Hundreds of them have
contacted us since Tuesday morning. Currently, we're managing or have
already resolved 20 full-blown emergency situations. We're rolling in large
servers, thousands of ThinkPads and workstations; we're providing thousands
of square feet of data center capacity; re-creating data processing
environments that were destroyed; and relocating customers' operations to
IBM facilities. In addition, we are helping various disaster relief organizations
with IBM products and assistance. Thousands of our colleagues are on the
case, and the work proceeds around the clock.
I continue to receive hundreds of notes from IBMers all over the world. I trust
you understand that I cannot respond to each of them, but I want you to
know that I read every one. I have been deeply moved by the outpouring of
concern and, most of all, your compassionate offers to help in any way
possible.
There are plenty of opportunities for individuals to help. Those of you who
have offered your time and skills may yet be called on, so stand by. Many
have asked if we're going to run blood drives at IBM facilities. We have been
in contact with the Red Cross and have been advised that the best way to
provide blood is to donate it at the local community level. As it happens,
several IBM locations in the U.S. were planning blood drives this week and
next. These will proceed.
A number of relief funds have been established by government and volunteer
agencies, and I know from your notes IBMers will be extraordinarily generous,
as you have been in a number of prior national emergencies. We will provide
on w3 information on ways individuals can contribute.
A special fund, called The September 11th Fund, has been established in New
York City by various organizations, including the United Way. This fund will
deliver financial services and assistance to those who were affected by
Tuesday's catastrophe. IBM has pledged $5 million in cash, technology and
technical assistance to this fund. This is in addition to the uncountable
product and human assistance IBM is providing to other agencies and
organizations to help them manage through the crisis.
As I wrote to you on Tuesday, the most important thing any of us can do is
take care of the job at hand and keep IBM moving forward. I ask you to
remain focused on your customers, your job -- wherever you are in the world
-- and trust that the local teams in New York and Washington, D.C., will
reach out for all the additional assistance they need.
Your concern and self-sacrificing spirit make me so proud of our company and
of each other. Let's stay focused, and stay together.
Pick the right anaesthetic, or you'll kill me.
Thank you.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
"or not"
Well, considering that many "experts" disagree with your "expert", I don't take his not agreeing with me as proof that I'm wrong.
The reason I said 25th floor, is that it's the practical maximum you can get outside help to fight a fire at, it's approaching 80m up, and firefighting is severely hampered.
Now, as to the lower floors being stronger...
The jet impact on building 2 took out all the supports in its path, it likely would have done the same to even stronger supports.
Now, the building will be stronger lower down, but it will also have more weight about the damaged area, and critically important, more of the building is swaying back and forth above it.
I think that, if the fire was unchecked, the lower the crash, the sooner the collapse, and the more deaths. Now, the lower the crash, the easier the firefighting, but I don't think the 60th floor was required for that.
If you follow the news, top level goverment officers (even Bush) does not "name" a target, but does say "we will crush them". Most of the others name "Bin Ladin".
But US is not cautious this time. Because attacking on "false" target (even %90 of the evidents directed that way) is unacceptable.
As the originally quoted boyfriend in this thread, maybe I can offer some clarification of the comments made regarding my (personal)conclusions about the collapse. The original synopsis was fairly right on.
Regarding what happens to steel under extreme temperature - the previous post regarding crystalization of steel is right on. Steel is a crystaline structure made up mostly of iron molecules (mixed with carbon and some other things to create modern structural steel). Under normal conditions this crystaline structure is fairly densely packed (body-centered cubic for any chemists out there). As steel is heated (above approx. 2000 deg F, but I am not sure about the exact temperature), this crystal structure changes to a "looser" arrangement (face-centered cubic). The net result is that the "strength" of the steel degrades to about half of it's original value. In other words, once the steel crystalizes, its load capacity gets cut in half (approximately).
Regarding the difference between a fire caused by jet fuel and a "normal fire" - Buildings are normally designed to to remain standing during a fire. Or, they are at least designed to remain standing long enough to fully evacuate. Simply stated, take the occupancy of the structure and the rate at which people can exit via emergency routes and you get a time required to empty the building. As a designer, you have to make sure that the building will stay up that long (or longer). The point is that the "design fire" is made up of things that noramlly burn in a building. These are things like paper, drywall, furniture, carpet, etc. They are not things like jet fuel. Jet fuel is composed primarily of hydro-carbons (don't quote me on that one, I'm not a chemist or a fuel expert). The point is that jet fuel burns 2-3 times hotter than one would normally expect a building to burn. The result is that the steel changes phase faster, its strength degrades faster, and the additional forces created by the thermal expansion of the steel columns cause them to experience additional load faster.
Add to this the fact that the fire-resistant coating applied to the steel may have been mechanically damaged (i.e. ripped off) when the impact occured, and the fact that the fire-suppression system in the building was almost certainly damaged at the floors wherethe fire was actualy happening, and you get a building that loses its vertical load carrying capacity a lot faster than anticipated. Add to that the fact that some portion of the vertical load carrying system was already destroyed by having a jet liner crash into it and it's not surprising that the building collapsed prior to full evacuation (at least one of the 4 evacuation stairwells was totally destroyed, and the other 3 may have been on fire or full of smoke slowing evacuation further).
This is a tragedy. The loss of life involved is horrendous. The anger and hate that caused this attack in the first place makes me sick. The anger and hate that I suspect will ensue as a result (leading to more death - sickly illogical) scare me and sadden me. But, if we can momentarily accept that it did happen, and that we must mourn and respond in our own ways, and we can step back to look at how the building actually behaved, it is my initial and personal opinion that the structure behaved very well. It stayed up under the force of the impact of a large passenger jet even after losing some substantial portion of its structural system. It then stayed up for approx. another hour while a fire 2-3 times hotter than would normally be expected in such a building degraded the strength of the remaining structure. All things considered, the building behaved remarkably well!
Please do not interpret this as insensitivity to the terrible loss of life that occured. But, despite the sorrow and rage, consider what would have been required to make a building that would still be standing under those conditions. Can such a building be designed? Yes. Would it be economical to build? No. Would it be a functional to work in? No. Would it serve the purposes required of such a structure? No. And could someone, somewhere still figure out some way to bring it down that the designer had not considered? Yes.
Design and construction of a building like the WTC is an incredible accomplishment. That it performed how it did under that conditions it was subjected to is even more amazing. Much the same response is heard by designers after a major earthquake. Why not build them stronger?! Why did this happen?! Give me any design, and I can give you an event, natural or unatural that will fail that design.
So, where and how does the designer choose that line? Is it acceptable for you to go to work everyday in a 1 story concrete bunker with no windows so that your chances of being killed by a terrorist controlled plane full of jet fuel will be minimized? How would you responded Monday morning if someone had suggested that?
Uh, get real. France and Germany are in NATO, which just invoked the fifth article. Russia is far from being an enemy -- in fact, they are close to becoming the biggest ally of the US outside NATO. If US is to attack to Afghanistan, they will launch bomber planes from Russian air fields, while Russia will provide logistical and other kind of aid. China may allow
the US to use their air space.
More likely enemies include Iraq and Saudi Arabia (if their government is overthrown).
http://salfter.dyndns.org/graphics/binladen.jpg
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
It must be especially difficult for her parents, with the media attention they hoped would help find her taken away by the suffering of others.
It's sort of a relief not to be hearing about Gary Condit all the time, but this sure ain't the way I'd have chosen to get the focus off of him.
Something that did cross my mind yesterday-the House Intelligence Committee is apparently going to be quite busy, too busy to take time to worry about removing him from that committee, and nobody has the time to talk about calling on him to resign any more. He just may salvage his political career while we're all looking elsewhere. (Unless his political enemies find a way to tie him to Osama Bin Laden)
What would the news media do if they had to report on 2 or 3 big stories at once?
I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.
What a bunch of flamebait! Even on /. where I know that most people aren't terribly religious, how the heck did this get modded up? Did you even read the post about Islam? Islam, Christian's and Jews all teach respect for human life.
So I guess everyone except religious people have freedom to believe whatever they want, or freedom of speech to say whatever they want. But people who are religious, they can't talk about things that could make the world a better place.
You don't have any idea where this world would be without religion. Religious organizations set up medical services, counceling services, all manner of help. The United Way, the Red Cross, the Salvation Army all have religion in them, and countless other organizations that don't get 24/7 media coverage, people who believe in a higher power and believe in helping without a bunch of lime-light and credit.
Brainwashing???? BRAINWASHING??? You say I'm brainwashed because I go to church once a week and pray to a higher power for guidance. You say by teaching my children (I don't have any yet but I will) that these are good things is brainwashing when millions of children acroos America sit and watch a flashing box for eight hours a day???
You don't have to believe in anything. No one is forcing you too. But I for one am quite proud of the fact that I'm weak, that I need help in life, that I have someone to turn to when everyone around me leaves. You don't have to have that but don't dare think that you can take my freedom to do so.... and on that note those terrorists who did this are fanatics who do things in the name of religion. The religion disowns them, they are trying to justify themselves while really serving their own ends, AND trying to regulate how people think or believe won't change this. Bring on the american thought police and you'll invite more terrorism.
I just can't believe this garbage was modded up
The Anti-Blog
Too bad. I have in the past brought a pocketknife on the plane, but I would gladly forget about this if that's what's necessary to prevent the nutcases from bringing them on.
People are required to unload and declare firearms, and then they may send them as checked baggage. Probably no need to declare knives, but sending them through checked baggage seems appropriate.
And I never check bags. (Waste of time at the arrival end.) But in this case such a restriction seems appropriate.
sulli
RTFJ.
The terrorist supposedly told the passengers they also had a bomb. It seems that for the 3 planes that hit the passengers probably didn't know they were going on a crash course, and were told they would not be harmed. Given that they were probably hoping for the best. Supposedly the 4th plane crashed in PA b/c the passengers DID find out they would be screwed either way.
Personally I think the terrorists have shot themselves in the foot, they've made it extremely unhealthy to hijack a plane. Before the 11th the best move when hijacked was to sit tight, most hostages made it out alive. Now? Now we have to assume that they're going to use the plane as a bomb, that by doing nothing we're killing ourselves and thousands of innocents.
If I end up on a hijacked plane I'm not going to sit back and let myself die and kill thousands in the process, before I would have sat back and hoped for the best, because that was the sensible thing to do. Now the sensible thing to do is to fight, kill them before they kill you. Personally, I wouldn't give tuppence for the life of the next guy that tries to hijack a plane.
Al.The Daily ACK - Eclectic posts by yet another hacker
They just need to bring back Sky-Marshalls. Sky-Marshalls are specially trained agents that fly in plain clothes. The airlines don't even know who they are. El Al never gets hijacked because there are a guaranteed 2 armed agents on every flight. If we had just one Sky-Marshall on each of those flights they would have taken out the terrorists before most people on the plane even realized what was going on. Sky-Marshalls have not been flying much (or at all) lately because of budgetary cutbacks. The FAA has anounced that there will be many more Sky-Marshalls flying in the future.
Very strange. The same issue covering the lord of the rings (Including the book "The Two Towers"!!) has the picture of "The Coup" cover with the two World Trade Towers burning on page 170. (This month's issue with the Tolkein Runes on the cover)
Do you know for a fact that there in fact was NOT really a bomb on board?
And in light of the after math, if they just said, "We have a bomb." then they would be telling the truth, tragically enough. This bomb was a guided missile with an FAE payload.
LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
As an American, I plan to give blood in aid of the victims in New York. I cried when I saw the two towers collapse yesterday. But I quite simply refuse to become another victim of American bigotry just because I'm half arab, and was raised a muslim. I am NOT going to be part of the crowd that grows fearful of every attendant at 7-Eleven, or every taxi-cab driver in New York or Los Angeles.
Part of the reason that the World Trade Centers were bombed is because Terrorists fail to realize that not everyone in America are soldiers. They feel that the acts of any government justify violence against its citizens.
By having fear and suspicion in anyone who is different, our mentality is no different than that of a terrorist. And if we as a people are violent towards others uninvolved that live in this country, we are no worse than the terrorists themselves.
So please... please realize America not as just one nation, but one nation of separate, different people united. So, as Christians, Jews, Muslims, anyone... pray. For those that do not pray, simply hope. Just keep your hatred saved for the perpitrators, not those who have no choice on their heritage. Or quite simply, don't hate at all...
Okay, I'm done with what I have to say... Feel free to reply to me and flame me to your heart's content.
Mark El-Wakil
seventhcycle@yahoo.com
/^[A-Z0-9._%+-]+@[A-Z0-9.-]+\.[A-Z]{2,4}$/i
The physics of an aircraft are relatively simple, when it comes to a forced landing. You have a tube, in essence, and tubes are generally much stronger longitudinally, rather than transversely.
Thus, the answers aren't really that difficult to figure out. Provided you can reduce the transverse forces to the minimum possible, your structure should hold up reasonably well. Well, at least better than nose-diving into the ground at an unimaginable speed.
Historically, belly-landings have been carried out by aircraft where landing gear is damaged or disabled. They are extremely dangerous, by all accounts, but certainly survivable. That is proven simply by the fact that people have survived them.
HOWEVER, modern aircraft are not designed nearly rigidly enough to handle a belly-landing on rough terrain. It would rapidly disintegrate. The outer skin is barely more than flimsy aluminium, held rigidly enough to provide an aerodynamic shape.
This limits things a bit. To avoid destroying the aircraft, you'd need to belly-land on very soft terrain - VERY soft terrain. Soft earth is still way, way too hard for a jumbo jet. That leaves deep mud or water.
Now, aircraft -are- designed for landings on water. Anyone who has even read those safety cards knows this, and anyone who listened to the news of that deliberately-crashed airliner, some years ago, into the sea, knows that aircraft CAN survive even very rough water landings, intact enough for survivors.
Mud is slightly more speculative, but only slightly. The difference in consistancy between deep, churned, waterlogged mud, and water, is noticable, but going back to that incident I mentioned, aircraft ARE built to withstand these kinds of forces, within the kinds of limits you might expect from this scenario.
Roads - the US Interstate system was BUILT with emergency landings from aircraft in mind. Smaller roads are not necessarily so well-built, but you're not planning on regularly using them for this, so it shouldn't matter.
Emergency landings on roads, by light and medium-size aircraft are about as common as you might expect from emergency landings. They're certainly done, and many such aircraft have even been able to take off again, after repairs, on those same roads.
History, therefore, tells me that it can be done. Experience, lectures, training - I'd need those to actually DO something like that! Sure! But I'm not planning on it, so I don't care about the fine detail. I only care that it's technically feasable, and therefore is an option, in the event of hostiles endangering the aircraft or its occupants.
As for the last bit - commuter jets vs Cessnas - you must remember that the laws of physics don't change between aircraft types, and the controls are all basically the same. You have controls for the rudder, the flaps, the aerlons and the elevators, and controls for the engine throttle.
Sure, you have LOTS of additional controls in a jet - you have to! - but the basics are going to be just the same. If you move the rudder this way, the plane goes that way. If you open the throttle, the plane goes faster.
You are also going to have a very different "feel" between aircraft types. Different degrees of response, different handling, different stall speeds, etc. But those are not as dramatic as you might think. You do realise that most British World War II air combat veterens trained on bicycles and -maybe- got some basic practice on a Tiger Moth, or something similar.
From that alone, they'd not only need to fly Spitfires and Hurricanes -- totally "different" aircraft, but they'd need to fly them in anger against trained, experienced pilots of the Luftwaffe, with anything from 10:1 to 1000:1 odds against them.
Yet, amazingly, they did it. The casualties were high, but enough actually survived to force Germany to retreat. A superior force, the like of which might never be seen in the sky again, was actually forced to flee, by a bunch of amateurs with probably fewer air-miles clocked up than years, and most of that on push-bikes and bi-planes!
Yes, it's different. Of COURSE it's different, flying a 767 vs. a Cessna, but different in any way that really matters? Probably not. But you could always ask those WW2 air veterens what they think, if you doubt that two planes could be both similar and different at the same time.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Check out this and this-- it looks like an American Eagle starting salary is $30,000, with a raise of $3-8000 in the second year.
This still means the pilot is making about as much as a NYC bus driver with the same amount of seniority, which does strike me as a bit odd...
I hope this is one of the things that changes for the better after this awful ordeal.
HOWTO get better dates on slashdot
Espen Skoglund wrote: While I wholeheartedly agree that one shouldn't give in to terrorism, I am pretty stunned by the total lack of concern people have in finding the cause of the attacks. ... Even if it turns out to be bin Laden having a sickingly hatred agains the US and Americans, the answer still prompts the question: "Why? There surely must be a reason for the hatred?"
This is more or less the reasoning that I'd like to hear more of. I listened to our congress all day yesterday and most of today. Talks of war! Talks of retribution! Not one, not one senator talked of reflection. This is especially disconcerding givin that they claim to be good
Christians. Christ talked about reflection.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that some people's objections to not trying to learn, to being too bullheaded, to not being willing to adapting at any cost, might have played a significant role in the last days event.
I agree here. This story is indeed tragic. To be tragic one needs a fatal flaw. In the US we have that fatal flaw; the notion of supremesy, manifest destiny, and arrogance. Very unsettling that the journalists are correctly calling the bombing tragic...
To answer the question: What we must do? We must educate those around us, and teach others to not stand idle while fellow humans are being treated unjustly (esp with our money). To do this we must work at the grass roots, and we must strive to bring our capitalism and democracy back into ballance. If we don't we will lose both our democracy and capitalism; and our freedom and security.
Are you serious? If so please cite examples.
The sole purpose of the Internet is to get porn and bomb making plans into the hands of children.
So the FAA is banning non-ticketed persons past security checkpoints.
Uh... THE TERRORISTS HAD TICKETS!!! How do we know that? Because the FBI identified them from passenger manifests!
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
I would hesitate to put even many Middle Eastern Countries against us in any potential World War III. They call the USA the World's only Superpower, but Russia has in the past been quite a force to be reckoned with, certainly during the cold war to be considered a Superpower. As they adjust to a new government and economic model they are a bit less so, but with full US and NATO backing the Russian nation could quite easily regain Superpower status.
If that is the case even without the unconditional NATO and UN support, it would be foolish to challenge the worlds only TWO superpowers. Remember third world countries largely depend on very old Russian fighter jets. Fighter jets which Russia and the US have considered obsolete for quite some years.
http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/13/international/13 AFGH.html
was particularly brutal I thought. 2 quotes that really stood out for me:
"If there are Americans clamoring to bomb Afghanistan back to the Stone Age, they ought to know that this nation does not have so far to go"
and
"He had not thought much about an American retaliation against Afghanistan. When he did consider it, standing in a ramshackle collection of stalls, he shrugged and said: "Americans are powerful and can do anything they like without us stopping them.""
These aren't a bunch of bloodthirsty warmongering Arabs. They are a bunch of poor downtrodden regular people who are RULED by a totalitarian dictatorship.
These people don't want to go to war with america. (Though many of them remember just exactly who it was that funded the Taliban's original rise to power.)
They don't like the Taliban any more than you or I do. In fact, I don't think it is a stretch to say that the average Afghanistani HATES the Taliban. The problem of course is that if they say it, they'll be shot...
It's time that America stepped up to the plate and took some responsibility for it's actions.
Remove the Taliban from power. Do it swiftly, do it decisively, and do it brutally if that is required. But for god's sake: don't go to war with Afghanistan.
When it's all said and done, America needs to stick around, and REBUILD the damn country. Just like it did with Japan.
If that seems like an overly imperialistic idea, then that's because it is. But it would give the people of Afghanistan 3 fundamental things that they sure as hell don't have now:
Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
I'd *love* to know why this was moderated down: there isn't an untrue word in it. Did it get nailed by Israeli sympathizers who've fallen for the media snowjob, or by American "patriots" who refuse to acknowledge the role decades of bad foreign policies has played?
No matter how much it's marked down, the truth remains: *NO ONE* has clean hands in this mess, because *EVERY* nation has contributed to creating it.
We're only just beginning to reap what we have sown, so help us.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
"Terror Attacks: New to us, not to Afghans"
by James Ingalls
Like a subliminal "Wanted" poster, TV newscasts flash images of the destroyed Twin Towers, followed at longer intervals by the face of Osama bin Laden. The disclaimer that we still have no idea who is responsible for the brutal attacks in Manhattan, Washington, and Pittsburgh seems weak in comparison with this visual "evidence". Unlikely to be accorded anything approaching due process, the suspect of the decade will probably find his interests under violent attack by the US and NATO within the next few days. It is too much to hope for no civilian casualties, as GW Bush fulfils his promise to "make no distinction between the terrorists who committed these acts and those who harbored them," implying that the people of Afghanistan will soon be subjected to aerial bombardment. The US will likely "validate...the logic of terrorism" (Human Rights Watch), following the dictum that violence and terror are the proper responses to violence and terror.
Michael Sheehan, the State Department's Counterterrorism Coordinator, has made a big deal about a "geographic shift" in terrorist activity from the Middle East to South Asia. Sheehan attributes the shift to the war against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan during the 1980s: "This war destroyed the government and civil society of Afghanistan, at the same time bringing arms, fighters from around the world, and narcotics traffickers to the region." Sheehan eliminates any trace of human involvement--"this war" brought arms, fighters, and narco-traffickers to Afghanistan, destroying civil society. What Washington tends to conveniently ignore is that bin Laden and the rest of the extremist terrorists empowered to fight in Afghanistan were taught "the logic of terrorism" by our own Central Intelligence Agency.
The CIA assembled a terror network that remains a cause of misery worldwide. CIA Director William Casey called it "the kind of thing we should be doing." According to standard sources, aid to extremist groups in Afghanistan was a response to the Soviet invasion. The truth is that President Carter gave the green light for covert support to the Mujaheddin six months _before_ the December 1979 invasion. In the words of then National Security Advisor Zbigniew Brzezinski, a major architect of Carter's policy, they were "drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap." The US supported seven fundamentalist extremist groups throughout the 1980s and into the early 90s with cash, sophisticated weapons, and training to the tune of $5 billion--according to official figures. The secret Black Budget of the CIA reportedly quadrupled to $36 billion per year when Reagan became president in 1980, and some of this money went to support secret operations in Afghanistan. Some of the earliest training exercises took place inside the US, including rifle shooting at the High Rock gun club in Naugtuck, Connecticut. More technical training took place at the CIA's Camp Peary, nicknamed "The Farm," northeast of Williamsburg, Virginia. Among the topics covered by training sessions were surveillance and countersurveillance, counter-terrorism, counter-narcotics and paramilitary operations.
Around the same time, a source of private funding was sought for the war. Osama bin Laden, a man with "impeccable Saudi credentials" (his father's construction company had just been awarded a contract to rebuild and restore the holy sites in Mecca and Medina) was given "free rein in Afghanistan" by the CIA. Using his share of his family's business empire, he built training camps and airplane landing strips, and carved underground bunkers in the mountains of Afghanistan, all with Washington's approval. Just across the border, bin Laden's base in Pakistan was the Binoori mosque in Karachi. The prayer leader at this mosque was one Mullah Mohammed Omar, now "supreme leader" of the Taliban.
After the Soviet withdrawal in 1989, the Mujaheddin groups began turning their US-supplied weapons on each other, and on the civilian population of Afghanistan. In 1990, the CIA began supplying the Mujaheddin directly, rather than using Pakistan's ISI intelligence service as a conduit. According to then chief of ISI's Afghanistan branch, Mohammad Youssaf, the CIA's aim was to "play on differences between the various factions and their commanders," in an effort to "curb the power" of the factions and make way for an unknown "Transition Regime," perhaps the Taliban.
The CIA's propping up of the fundamentalist terrorists in Afghanistan began to show its consequences during this period. The first victims were the people of Afghanistan. The group getting the most US aid, led by Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, began rocket shelling Kabul. A close friend of bin Laden, Hekmatyar was understood by his benefactors to be "a nut, an extremist, and a very violent man" (US ambassador to Afghanistan Robert Neumann). In the 1970s he gained notoriety for throwing acid on the faces of women who refused to wear the veil. Journalist Michael Griffin writes of Kabul under Hekmatyar's onslaught: "no city since the end of the Second World War - except Sarajevo - had suffered the same ferocity of jugular violence as Kabul from 1992 to 1996. Sarajevo was almost a side-show by comparison and, at least, it wasn't forgotten." From 1990-1994 45,000 civilians were killed, 300,000 had fled to Pakistan, and Kabul was "turned into a rubble resembling Dresden after the fire-bombing." Most Afghans are now without livelihood, reduced to begging from international aid agencies. They currently live under the fascistic Taliban, who keep bin Laden safe.
Terrorists trained and armed by the CIA to fight in Afghanistan have since been implicated in attacks on the World Trade Center in 1993, and in US embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998, which killed hundreds of people. These efforts pale in comparison to the recent destruction in Manhattan, Washington, and Pittsburgh. If proven guilty in fair trial, bin Laden should certainly be held accountable. But the Afghan people, no strangers to the terrorism of bin Laden and his friends, should not be made to pay further for the consequences of our actions. It was our officials who originally unleashed these forces of destruction on Afghanistan. Perhaps the faces of Zbigniew Brzezinski, William Casey, Jimmy Carter, and Ronald Reagan should be on the TV screen too, next to Osama bin Laden's and the empty holes in the ground where twin towers stood.
The author is on the Board of Directors of the Afghan Women's Mission, and is a Staff Scientist at the California Institute of Technology.
The system has failed you, don't fail yourself. --Billy Bragg
This is the only reasonable and sensible thing in your entire post.
Need a Python, C++, Unix, Linux develop
not a big surprise, but more trains & cars have been added.
sulli
RTFJ.
From The (London) Daily Telegraph (14 Sep 2001):
(Opinion piece by John Keegan)
...
"There are other current movements of which to take note, as yet insubstantial but certain to gather concrete form. One is the retreat of human rights lawyers from the forefront of public life. America in a war mood will have no truck with tender concern for constitutional safeguards of the liberty of its enemies. The other, which ordinary Americans will have to learn to bear, is interference with their liberty of instant electronic access to friends and services.
"The World Trade Centre outrage was co-ordinated on the internet, without question. If Washington is serious in its determination to eliminate terrorism, it will have to forbid internet providers to allow the transmission of encrypted messages - now encoded by public key ciphers that are unbreakable even by the National Security Agency's computers - and close down any provider that refuses to comply.
"Uncompliant providers on foreign territory should expect their buildings to be destroyed by cruise missiles. Once the internet is implicated in the killing of Americans, its high-rolling days may be reckoned to be over."
Its always been preached, and I always believed, that hatred came from ignorance. Cruelty is only possible if you never think of your victims as human beings. From day to day insensitivity, to political propaganda, hatred has depended on ignorance. :( Its only been true of westerners like me who thought these people were too barbaric and ignorant to get under the skin of our society and destroy us.
Or not. The terrorists knew America. They knew procedures and policies for hijackings. They knew how to fly a commercial airliner. They had classmates who are Americans. They would have to have been in the States a reasonable amount of time, and interacted with Americans every day they were there, up until the final moments when they told their helpless cargo to call their loved ones.
They knew us, they knew how we westerners think. They were not ignorant. They knew there were human beings involved. Yet they were capable of this atrocity anyway.
So much for 'tolerance through education'.
So much of what we all believed is wrong.
Evil can't be ended with education. Evil is evil.
-- INTX Grouch. http://www.midnightblue.net
Logically this would make sense, but religious fanaticism is not based on logic but something more like brainwashing and indoctrination.
It doesn't even make logical sense. It's akin to assuming that U.S. citizens would rise against their own government once we witnessed the wanton destruction inflicted upon us. Hell no. It entrenched the iraqis and it will entrench whomever we attack.
Ok, and I didn't mean you and your experts were completely wrong, just that the story didn't ring 100% based on conflicting reports, the pictures I saw, etc.
:)
But, of course, now I can't find anything that supports my take on it. I must say though, that I didn't say anything about *where the plane hit* mattering, so I'm not ignoring evidence towards your views.
All I could find was "The ensuing collapses may have occurred when the weight of the buildings above the points of impact exceeded the reduced load carrying capacity of the remaining structure."
Which, if you close one eye and crook your neck, seems to support my view.
I really think it's mainly 6 of one, a half dozen of the other...
#1 was hit at 8:40, #2 at 9:00, #2 collapsed at 10:00, #1 at 10:29, BUT, from the pictures, #2 sustained a much worse hit, so it's impossible to say if it's the severity of the hit, or the floor it was hit on, that did the most damage.
What everyone agreed with (all the experts I found online) was that the fire was the main cause of the collapse. Many thought the buildings would still be standing if they hadn't burnt. Which says, imho, that it was both and neither. The floor hit at is mostly irrelevant as long as it's not the very top (ie, nothing pressing down) or at the bottom where they could put it out.
Wow, you summed it up *SO* well! Dude, seriously, that's IT.
"If you want someone to die for you, you cannot pay them money."
Exactly! Only brainwashing can do that.
And yeah, religious people almost always beleive their parents religion. I don't know anyone who was raised without religion who later adopted one, this says to me that most people are perfectly capable of living without it, if they weren't brainwashed into it.
Anyways, great point.
And this was modded up why?
The whole point about FISA warrants is that they are not transparent, that there's no oversight, no accountability, no way to contest or challenge them or even to know why one was issued.
The loss of privacy isn't the main issue, it's the loss of any pretence to having any respect for the individual. It's the view that unelected officials can decide your fate without even the common courtesy of telling you why. It's the precedent that a faceless man in a locked room can decide that are so likely to be guilty that your ability to show otherwise can be suspended.
As an aside, the British government has given itself similar powers, specifically to combat the situation in Northern Irelend. They are used sparingly, the bill has a duration of one year, and Parliament has to keep voting to renew it. The thinking there is that this sort of measure is abhorent, and should be done away with as soon as it is no longer necessary.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
It's not just a matter of what laws are passed - it's how they are enforced.
Which is exactly what I was saying. The laws themself do nothing. It's enforcement that matters. And I argue that with the current airport security infrastructure, it will be essentially impossible to effectively secure (or enforce these news laws).
It's nothing of the sort.
I still disagree
You can argue that people with pens, martial arts skills, etc. could do the same thing, but how many times have they?
How relevant is this? Prior to Tuesday, you could use this same logic to say that there was no need to protect against people carrying knives onboard, since no one had every used knives to hijack a US flight and crash it into a builiding.
It's important to remember that this was the first really major act of terrorism on US soil. This was the first time a plane was hijacked in the US for the last 10 years or so. This very incident was an exception to the norm. You can't say "ban knives, this will not happen again". That's about as effective as saying "ban terrorism, that way this doesn't happen again". Remember the facts - Bin Laudin openly declared war on the United States ~5 years ago. This is most likely an act of war by a group/country which is openly at war with the US. The big difference - we've never really been attacked in the continental US, and we've never really acknowledged Bin Laudin's declaration of war.
Another important premise to remember is that an intelligent attacker (or a terrorist) will arm themselves to the greatest degree possible, given all appropriate facts. These men came carrying knives, it seems, because they were assured they could sneak them on board, and they were sufficient for their purposes. Previously, most terrorists have used guns. You can assume that increased security controls around firearms have made that method a little more difficult (not impossible, just a higher risk of detection). If you outlaw knives, then someone will attack with a corkscrew, or a pen, or a club, or a stick.
And no matter how many hand combat skills they have, if they can't get into the cockpit, then they won't get control of the flight.
Certainly true. But what you are suggesting here is either a change in airline policy (the pilots need to know not to hand over control of a plane) or a shift in the physical layout of the plane (the inability for the doors to the cabin to be opened in flight, etc). But these issues were not in your first post which I responded to. I feel both are good ideas and will likely be appropriate responses.
I'm not arguing we do ONE thing - many things have to be done. Banning knives is one of them.
I'm just arguing that banning knives is like trying to control guns - someone will always be able to come up with a weapon to do harm. If you want to make real progress, you have to attack the root cause. US foreign policy, our stance on terrorism and terrorist states, etc.
So, you don't like the idea of controlling what people can carry onto flights? You don't think the government should make such rules? Try this argument - those airplanes are private property. Passengers are guests - if the owner of the property wants to ban knives from the airplane, he has every right to, doesn't he?
You must have missed the entire last paragraph of my previous comment, saying "My base argument here is that flying (like driving) is a privledge and not a right." If the airlines (or the FAA, the government regulators) want to ban knives, or pencils, or even conscious passengers, that is their perogitive. My personal beliefs are so far to the right that I border on anarchism (the political philosoply, not the ridiculous "anarchy" movement". But what I was trying to say above is that I think it would be more effective for passengers to carry weapons on an airplane. Exactly the same as I maintain that the NY Subway shooting of a few years ago could have been easily stopped with minimal loss of life if you had one or two people on board carrying concealed weapons.
You can never legislate behavior in criminals. Certain people are going to act in discord with the laws, regardless of the supposed punishment. Most people simply think that they are invincible, that they are too smart, that they will not be caught. The only way IMO to make a real difference is a two-prong paradigm shift: drastically change enforcement (active enforcement, stop fighting the "stupid stuff", increase the effort and thus the chance of being caught, increase the punishment, etc) as well as pro-active prevention (active air marshalls on every flight, sealed cockpits which cannot be opened into the cabin, possibly increasing the ability of the passengers or the flight crew to defend themselves, etc).
My suggestion for appriate military response? Bomb Afganastan, Packastan, and Iraq (and any other known terrorist nations, whether or not they were connected to this specific attack) into dust. Level their government sectors. Accept a certain (high) level of civilian casualties. Make it known world-wide that we will not tolerate any country who wishes to use a terrorist method against the United States. We will pro-actively defend ourselves against those nations who claim to be actively at war with us. At the same time, shift our public policy to be US-centric instead of world-centric. Get out of the middle east, get out of Israel. Let NATO assume the role of world cop, not the US. (We'll still fall in that role through our role in NATO, but we will not be the "bastion of democracy for the world").
That's prong I of my "two-prong paradigm shift" as detailed above. For prong II, just a few suggestions (not an all-inclusive list):
go to at least two well-armed (knives, air tasers, hand tasers, clubs, kevlar armor, etc) air marshalls on every flight
drastically increase security checkpoints and their enforcment. Go to armed officers (police or private) at every gate
increase the skill level (training, higher pay, etc) of the security guards and all airline personell
arm all flight attendents (a hand taser or etc), provide them with basic self-defense training
provide citizens of the US the ability to carry concealed weapons (on the street, not necessarily on planes) given that they can pass stringent testing (including physical, psychological, and weapon/defense aptitude testing). Make the licensing fee several thousand dollars to pay for the testing. Require renewall every calendar year.
possibly provide provide citizens of the US the ability to carry concealed weapons even on planes given an even stricter certification process. Essentially, use the citizens to defend the country, not just the military or the police. This is one of the best ways to avoid becoming a "police state".
---------
There is no try at jedinite.com
I know you were replying to Mastoid, but since I brought on the discussion, I figured I should interject something here that I didn't make clear before. I don't speak for Mastoid.
I should have preceeded my comments with "for better or worse,..." because while I predict the coming of these measures in the U.S., I never intended to imply that I agree with them.
The important thing here is to not attack those who predict losses of liberty. They are not your enemy, nor are they to blame for it.
> Nah.. I'd rather die than live in either of
> those scenerios.
You make a very passionate statement here, and one that I'm sure you know has it's roots in American government philosophy. But as we are truly a nation of and for the people, it will be up to the people to decide how much of this we tolerate, and where we draw the line.
I predict, based entirely on historical study of partisan politics, that our current administration is far more concerned with security than liberty. But if we, the people, are clear that Bush's reaction now and in the coming years will define his presidency, I also predict that a country that has grown weary of the loss of our liberty because of the cowardly acts of some terrorists will do to him what they did to his father.
Again, for better or worse.
-- "In order to have power, I must be taken seriously." -Mojo Jojo
If you won't/can't fork out the cash for a real aircraft, I'll settle for any professional-level simulator that has support for emergency landings. (And, no, Microsoft Flight Simulator is =not= a professional-level simulator. Though I can do a great 3-point landing with a Learjet, on Statton Island, using it. Fun, but not terribly realistic.)
You're "bored", because you daren't risk the possibility of being wrong. Well, that's too bad. The only way anyone can be certain of being right is when they risk being wrong.
But, I'm not stupid, either. If I weren't bloody certain that an emergency, wheel-less landing was possible, I wouldn't be making the offer. Sure, no sane person would take me up on it, but I'm not altogether sure anyone who uses 1337 names is particularly sane. I'm not making this offer in the hope that nobody will take me up on it, I'm making it because I'm certain that it doesn't matter if they do or not. And if I'm wrong -- I'll have ceased to care. (I'll have ceased to exist, too, but that's a minor detail.)
But, of course, you won't be interested. Too big a risk of looking like a fool. Not that you don't look like one, already, with that nick. As for your claim of flying aircraft, what in? An Arcade? I know members of the Dambuster squadron. I know pilots who have handled everything from Wellingtons to fighters to basic gliders. And I know that the phenominal concentration and skill of a real pilot of any worth or skill will no more be found on Slashdot (especially with cheezy nicks) than top-notch lawyers, rocket scientists, or world-renoun physicists.
It is different in all sorts of ways that matter if you plan to turn, or go up or down, or anything other than slam the plane into the ground. The bigger the plane the easier it becomes to overcorrect and get completely out of control.
If you don't have enough precision and dexterity to make subtle adjustments, you shouldn't be on the road, never mind the air. If you EVER drive, fly, or sail, making big, sweeping motions, you'll be a part of the landscape in no time flat.
THAT is why it is irrelevent that "large aircraft" are easier to overcorrect. You should never be overcorrecting them in the first place!!!
How do you make a manoever? Very gently, in small increments, and ALWAYS let the vehicle make most of the manoever for you. People talk about "controlling" a vehicle. Those people are stupid, and generally are the ones who have accidents. You don't control shit. Nudging, guiding, becoming a part of the vehicle - these are how you survive.
Until you learn that simple thing, you will have insurance premiums from hell. And I'd hate to see what your insurance is for flying. If you even do.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
Ouch. But thanks. Yeah, I did flub a bit there.
:)
"instead of 99% of them being false, it's more likely that 100% are false"
Right, if they aren't linked, the probability isn't either. Like if you flip 99 heads, the next one is no more likely to be heads, or tails, than the first.
Of course, this assumes an unbiased coin. And I was tying to say that but it didn't come out right. If all religions you have examined are flawed, then it might be worth seeing if they are linked. Such as checking a coin producing 99 heads, before accepting it as a statistical longshot.
"it is a disservice to automatically presume otherwise."
Yes, bad again. I was seeing in Code Shark the echos of everyone similar I'd talked to, and did attribute to him things which may not be accurate.
"But, remove the 'for which there is no direct evidence' statement. If there is direct evidence, it does not negate the burden of proof - just simplifies/minimizes it."
Good point.
"I think you have just missed the mark. One inconsistency proves that there are errors."
Well, I was trying to show that it's easy to prove there's a problem with the statments "God is omnipotent" and "God directed the creation of the bible". But, I realize that only some sects believe the later.
But, if the two statements were linked "God is omnipotent and directed the writing of the bible" would a single error not disprove that?
The root of a lot of my problems with it is that I didn't want to just say "No, YOU prove that he exists", I wanted to explain why it fell upon him to do so. Oh well, lofty intentions...
"Reading this, I am ashamed I did not state this in any of my posts above this. WELL SAID!!!"
Thank you. I'm just annoyed I didn't think of such a concise summary years ago.
I followed with interest your various responses to your "full metal jacket" post elsewhere and thought you might be interested in the quotes below...I really believe we are going to use a nuke before this is all over to show everybody thet they mess with the USA on our own soil at their peril. This comes from today's "talking heads" on TV (from www.drudgereport.com), I've posted it elsewhere if you want to join the discussion again in another thread:
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld this morning refused to rule out the use of nuclear weapons in America's coming battle with terrorists.
Appearing on ABC's THIS WEEK, Rumsfeld was asked if a possible tactical nuclear strike would be used.
"Can we rule out the use of nuclear weapons?" questioned ABC's Sam Donaldson.
RUMSFELD: You know, that subject--we have an amazing accomplishment that's been achieved on the part of human beings. We've had this unbelievably powerful weapon, nuclear weapons, since what 55 years now plus, and it's not been fired in anger since 1945. That's an amazing accomplishment. I think it reflects a sensitivity on the part of successive presidents that they ought to find as many other ways to deal with problems as is possible.
DONALDSON: I'll have to think about your answer. I don't think the answer was no.
RUMSFELD: The answer was that that we ought to be very proud of the record of humanity that we have not used those weapons for 55 years. And we have to find as many ways possible to deal with this serious problem of terrorism.
And if, Sam, you think of the loss of human life on Tuesday and then put in your head the reality that a number of countries today have other so-called asymmetrical threat capabilities--ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, chemical weapons, biological weapons, cyber warfare--these are the kinds of things that are used in this era the 21st century. And a germ warfare attack anywhere in the world would bring about losses of lives not in the thousands but in the millions.