XOSL, an alternative to Lilo and Grub

WhyPanic writes "XOSL, the Extended Operating System Loader, is a free (as in beer and as in GPL), full featured, graphical boot loader that can work in conjunction with Lilo or separately to boot all varieties of Windows, Linux, and many other OS's." Nifty looking.

Comments

Just for AMD?

[alanjstr]

and the title sounds like its only for AMD?

Re:Just for AMD?

[PygmySurfer]

Can't you read? XOSL is an alternative to AMD, not "for" AMD. Sigh.

I think he reads better than you.. here, take a look at the title of the post:

XOSL, an alternative to Lilo amd Grub

Obviously, he was poking fun at CmdrTaco's supreme grammatical prowess.

Re:Just for AMD?

[BlkPanther]

Obviously you don't understand!

XOSL, an alternative to Lilo, AND, Grub.
XOSL, LILO and Grub are boot loaders! AMD makes microprocessors! The person who posted this obviously spelled "and" wrong!

LILO amd Grub

[jeeryg_flashaccess]

Since I noticed it i'll mention it. The topic should be LILO and Grub. Not LILO amd Grub! Meh...

Re:LILO amd Grub

[Tsar cr0bar]

By what possible stretch of the imagination is the parent "Informative"?

Re:LILO amd Grub

[juju2112]

WTF? How could CmdrTaco have missed this?

Re:LILO amd Grub

[kikta]

How could CmdrTaco have missed this?

You're new to the Slashdot community, aren't you? ;-)

Re:LILO amd Grub

[juju2112]

But...but....it was the title of the article!

Burning Karma

[InfinityWpi]

FR? Don't tell me I actually get to claim two of these...

Ok,

[MxTxL]

Who needs a graphical boot loader?

Then again, the 24 boot items and a few other features aren't bad.

Re:Ok,

[VFVTHUNTER]

I agree.

The best feature of Linux is its stability; considering my uptime is 134 days, I could care less about the boot process. I could care less about it on my laptop too. Were I running an OS that required rebooting every half hour, I would probably give a damn.

Trivia question: how long can you keep a 32-bit Linux box up and running?

Re:Ok,

[Peter La Casse]

The best feature of Linux is its stability; considering my uptime is 134 days, I could care less about the boot process.

I agree. When booting so infrequently, it's often difficult to remember quite how to operate that confusing LILO thing. A graphical boot loader would help immensely with this problem and help make Linux palatable for elite, yet forgetful sysadmins with months of uptime - an important demographic that we linux advocates should not overlook.

Re:Ok,

[t]

Actually, I still boot from floppy. When I set my box up years and years ago, lilo wasn't working for some reason and since I reboot maybe 2 or 3 times a year I never fixed it.

t.

Re:Ok,

[Da Masta]

Considering a large majority of Linux and other alternative OS users are dual-booting, I think the need for a graphical boot loader is actually pretty big.

XOSL in particular is especially great because it lets me boot off a floppy/cdrom which is a lifesaver one of my other comp's with a fucked BIOS that can't change boot order. (Yeah I know grub can do it too, but it takes quite a few commands to do pull it off.)

Re:Ok,

[LordMyren]

couple comments:
1) so we shouldnt have anything unnecessary on our systems?
2) I happen to like the fact that my bootloader can run 1600x1200.
3) for a friend's system it is a necessity. the mere existance of the console based Win2000 boot prompt caused cries of vehement protest amongst his family. having a graphical boot loader silenced their confused and angered complaints.

Re:Ok,

[big_hairy_mama]

When I got my new Seagate Baracuda ST340824A 40GB drives, it turns out that the sector translation or LBA clipping or something like that is messed up on those drives. So LILO and Grub wouldn't work and I had to boot from a floppy. Later the problem magically fixed itself, so I'm back to LILO. Either way, if it weren't for a recent power outage, I had an uptime of 78 days so it's not like I had to boot very much anyway.

Re:Ok,

[harlows_monkeys]

The best feature of Linux is its stability; considering my uptime is 134 days, I could care less about the boot process

The first word that comes to mind when I see a system with a 134 day uptime is not "stability". The word that comes to mind is "insecure", from the patches you've had to skip to get that uptime.

Re:Ok,

[uchian]

I've been using XOSL since I started using Linux - it makes my system... feel nicer. Instead of the harsh-looking command prompt, I get a nice graphical interface allowing me to browse between linux (my default) or Windows (which I log into about once every six months).

The fact is, LILO and Grub look HORRID in comparison. OK, they are totally functional, but XOSL is so much nicer, and makes your computer feel easier to use.

Obviously, it's not any use to anyone with only one operating system on your computer, but if you have more than one, and users who need to boot the computer but are not sure about command lines, XOSL can be a very cheap (aka free) god-send.

And remember that the current version of XOSL hasn't been changed in quite a while - I'm waiting for an updatedversion to come out, which is rumoured to replace lilo, among otehr things.

Re:Ok,

[Chakat]

The first word that comes to mind when I see a system with a 134 day uptime is not "stability". The word that comes to mind is "insecure", from the patches you've had to skip to get that uptime.

Not neccesarily. Depending on the role that box is in, and the software installed on that box, 134 days could be nothing. The poster could be running such secure software as Postfix, where security flaws are rare, or could be running a fairly well locked down desktop box, with all the unneeded services turned off. Besides, few software upgrades in Linux require a reboot. Anything short of installing a new kernel or C library, can be done on the fly, with no rebooting needed.

Re:Ok,

[spectral]

Ok, maybe i'm being an idiot here.. but I run Mandrake 8.0, and my lilo is graphical.. is this because it installed XOSL or does lilo itself now have a graphical interface at startup?

Re:Ok,

[ThatComputerGuy]

If you're referring to the red box that pops up in LILO, that's just LILO evolving. The first time I saw it was in version 21.7-5, in Slack8.

Re:Ok,

[VFVTHUNTER]

You're quite correct. This box is behind my 133MHz/32MB RAM POS NetBSD firewall. There's no sendmail, no bind, no NFS etc. The only manner in which it touches the internet is thru galeon and mutt.

Even if it were a Linux direct-net box, the only thing I think I would have needed to patch here lately is that pre-2.4.12 symlink bug. But since I'm the only user on this box, its sorta moot. Other than that, I would have just NOHUP'ed the patched TCPIP stuffs.

For the record, I could care less about uptime, I was just making the point that bootloaders are kind of moot for me since the only time this box goes thru its POST is when the power goes out. However, were I doing kernel dev, or multibooting, this thing is quite cool.

And I do agree with the other posters' remark that maybe I do need it since I boot so infrequently, but my self-compiled kernel is the only one in my lilo.conf. If that gets corrupted, its back to the install CD's...

Re:Ok,

[VFVTHUNTER]

This is the funniest post I've seen in a while. If you're a programmer, kudos to you for following Knuth's advice and perfecting your grammar.

PS - It's HARD to care so much!

Re:Ok,

[Daengbo]

I think he was talking about the gorgeous textured blue background with the nice white / black lettering, because there's no "red box" to be seen and hasn't been for some time. Check your facts

before you start to flame, please. Thank you

Re:Ok,

[stryder144]

You're not an idiot. I am assuming that you are referring to when you type your user name and password in. This is actually an x-login to the system, not the boot manager. LILO runs first, passes permission to the default or specified kernel (Linux, windows, whatever), then you get to the graphical or cli login. I have been using XOSL off and on for about a year now. It is nice if you dual/multi-boot with different hard drives and windows/linux oses. I can't load winnt on my second hard drive unless I turn my first one off via the bios (my first hdd has win98 on it :( ). Then everything loads, I turn the first hdd on, then run XOSL. It allows you to bypass the bios settings on boot up so that you can run the ntloader or lilo (if you installed the default boot loader on the second hard drive). This is something that not too many "free" os loaders can handle. Plus, XOSL is very pleasing to the eye. The only draw back seems to be that you need a dos partition in order to load and run it. This feature needs to go. Once it does, it could give grub and lilo a run for their money.

Re:Ok,

[satanami69]

I had the same problem with my 30GB. I had to first install linux into a 4GB partition. Then I did an Fdisk, repartitioned to the full 30gb, formatted, and reinstalled into the full 30GB. I guess Lilo didn't have a problem with the LBA after that. Whatever, it works now.

Re:Ok,

[satanami69]

Corel linux has the same load-up. It's actually quite nice and your can even change the picture in the background and the fonts in the menu.

Re:Ok,

[sciencewhiz]

Mandrake 8 and corel have a very pretty graphical interface to lilo.

/boot/message is a binary file on my mandrake system. I have not done any more research about it, but I assume that is how they get a very nice, colorful, high resolution menu.

Re:Ok,

[joekool]

Note: you might want to check YOUR facts, as in Slackware, that is exactly what you see in LILO

Windows Boot Laoder

[JohnHegarty]

Why is Windows the only operating system that comes without any type of multiple boot loaded. All the other seem to have one. Install 95/98/ME and it just sets its self as the only os , and thats the end of that.

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[BradleyUffner]

Windows NT, 2000, and XP have multiboot loaders. windows 95,98 and ME were meant for people with home systems before multi-booting was more common.

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

Because M$ does NOT want you to use other OSes.

And there's windows and windows. NT (4,2000, etc.) does allow you to boot and alternative system, as long as it's in a fat or ntfs partition.

All other OSes (os/2, BeOS, Linux, etc.) are not that greedy.

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[JohnHegarty]

Me was only released a year ago....

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[Unknown Bovine Group]

Why is Windows the only operating system that comes without any type of multiple boot loaded.

Gee, I don't know, could it be that the VAST MAJORITY of Win users don't have any other OS on their systems, while a SIGNIFICANT NUMBER of Linux/other OS are forced to cohabitate with a Win install?

It's like asking why there's a "share the road with motorcylces" bumper sticker and no "share the road with cars".

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[nexex]

Becuase it's against the licence for OEMs to make any other OS available besides Windows. See this.

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[smittyoneeach]

Because the raw arrogance of M$ is only exceeded by that of the company's native country.
Why should Redmond condescend to admit ANY other markets exist, notwithstanding a transient period when they feign fair business practices prior to crushing all opposition?
Consider what they are doing with the XBox. Do you think any competition will exist in the gaming market in a couple of years? That baby runs an M$ OS, and the latest DirectX API. Developers will simultaneously target the console and desktop gaming markets.
And then you figure out that you can slap a monitor and keyboard on this thing and, HOLY BALLS! A sub-300$ computer! The HP/Compaq merger shall have seemed ahead of its time 'fore too long, I reckon.
Credit where due: M$ supports a whole lot more hardware and software configurations than anyone else. Perhaps their fascist, anti-competitive methods are the only way to approach that. Any additional annoyance that they can use to deter people from trying other OSs is money in Billy G.'s pocket.
My solution (and I admittedly only run one 'nux distro besides Lose98SE) was to buy some removable hard drive brackets (15$ apiece or so) and just have a dedicated 'nux drive. This was easy to do, since none of the mentioned OSs have any paranoia features requiring them to phone home after sufficient hardware configuration changes, the way LoseXP so sweetly promotes 'nux.
Finishing this bottom blow, Gates, Ballmer, Alchin: the sad thing is that there will always be sheep for your wolfish business practices.

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[xbrownx]

Can you pass command-line arguments to the WinNT kernel?

What would they do?

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[skodpc]

Sure, you can pass arguments to NT before nooting. You just append them to the ARC string in boot.ini. The only one that I remember is the "noserialmice" parameter, that is useful when an UPS is connected to the serial port. I believe there is a few more parameters that can be put in there.

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[Moghedien]

...and if you pass the "SOS" parameter, Windows will list filenames as they are loaded at bootup. Could be useful.

Re:Windows Boot Laoder

[panum]

Can you pass command-line arguments to the WinNT kernel? What would they do?

Well, in the Boot.ini, there are a few things. Check it right out of the horse's mouth.

-P

Wishlist...

[Nijika]

The ability to edit settings while NOT in an operating system... probably asking too much.

Re:Wishlist...

[jandrese]

Um, Xosl is configurable from the boot screen (IIRC, it's been a year since I used it last).
Lets see what I can remember about this.

1. It is very nice looking, and even has optional fading effets
2. It is easy to install
3. It comes with a partition manager (Ranish Partition Manager)
4. It's quite configurable, you can do pretty much anything with it that you can do with any other first stage boot loader
5. It requires a FAT parition on your hard drive. This is bad for people who want to dual boot between Linux/FreeBSD and Win2k, and doubly bad if your FAT partition gets corrupted.
6. It tends to mark things "unavailable" if they disappear temporarily and never brings them back (you have to delete and recreate the partition). This was a big annoyance when I had a flaky SCSI card.
7. Ranish Parition Manager is not exactly pretty or easy to use
8. It's not so good for systems with fixed frequncy monitors, fortunatly this isn't a big deal anymore, but I used to have a 1280x1024 ONLY monitor attached to my system (not even a text mode) and my video card's best VESA mode was 800x600.
9. Despite what the docs say, you pretty much need a mouse to use it. I was never able to get the keyboard shortcuts working correctly for the configuration screens.

That's pretty much all I remember about it... I hope that gives you and idea of what Xosl is like.

Re:Wishlist...

[jas79]

grub can do this. so it isn't impossible.

Re:Wishlist...

[Jucius Maximus]

"1. Despite what the docs say, you pretty much need a mouse to use it. I was never able to get the keyboard shortcuts working correctly for the configuration screens."

I've used XOSL for about 3 months now and it doesn't support my USB (or any USB) mouse. I've gotten along just fine with the keyboard. But I do admit the config/setup would have been easier with the mouse.

Re:Wishlist...

[Molf]

Re: 5
That may be the default (it's so long since I had to change anything with in that I have forgotten), but it's certainly not necessary. For the last year or two I have been using XOSL installed on a dedicated partition, a couple of megs in size. One good thing is that you can restore it to the MBR for whatever reason, and everything is the same as before. I've never used grub, but I always found this to be a pain with LILO because you had to boot into the relevent OS to do that. I think the installer needs DOS, but that shouldn't be a problem as it's small enough to fit on a floppy.
NB. This is all applicable to a fairly old version since it was the only boot manager that could do all I wanted at the time (some of the partition hiding is cool), and I've never felt the need to look at anything newer.

Some crossed wires here

[fobbman]

This isn't a new development, so did Slashdot and Freshmeat somehow swap queues? Should I be checking Freshmeat for Katz submissions?

But you still need Lilo...

[sultanoslack]

XOSL won't load your kernel. You still need a Linux boot loader to do that. So, no, XOSL isn't an alternative to Lilo and Grub. I tried it a long time ago hoping to oust Lilo.

Thier website still says:
XOSL is known to support
[...]
Linux (with Lilo)

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[krmt]

Yeah, I saw this too. It's too bad, but maybe one day they'll actually put lilo's functionality in to this. Lilo has definitely gotten better as of late, but it's one of those continual-thorn-in-the-sides of the whole linux experience. This would definitely help matters, especially with newbies.

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[NullGrey]

So, what's the problem here? You get a nice system loader like 'System Commander' (or a GNU alternative), and you set your lilo.conf to only allow linux as the only choice, and defult the seconds to wait to 1 (I like to have time to hit TAB and type 'linux single' if I need to). And **POOF**, you're using LILO, but hardly ever see it.

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[rkent]

yes, but at least this works around the worst part of LILO on the MBR: the stupid cylinder limit. At least that's my biggest complaint. Of course, since I dual-boot NT, I can use the NT loader with no problems. But this MIGHT be a nice way to avoid the need to reboot into NT to properly place the bootsect.lnx, at least...

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[Daengbo]

From the Changelog for 21 to 21-3 (24-Feb-2000, current version is 22.0.2 (13-Oct-2001) BIOS tester ----------- Inspired by 'dparam.com', a much more extensive BIOS test program is included with this version. Called 'disk.com', it was developed under DOS, and requires' nasm' to be assembled. DISK.COM will probe the BIOS for disks supported by the BIOS, and report on their CHS geometry. If EDD is supported, the EDD geometry is also reported. If disks with cylinder numbers of 1024 or above are detected, it will issue a recommendation to use LILO with the 'lba32' option. Creation of the bootable floppy image version of this utility is incomplete at this time. will boot from disks up to 2048Gb in size, as long as the BIOS allows the Enhanced BIOS calls for 32-bit sector addressing using packet calls. Checks if BIOS supports packet calls (int 0x13, AH=0x42), and uses these calls if 'lba32' was specified. Otherwise, it uses the C:H:S addressings cheme of the original IBM-PC BIOS. The disk read routine is separated into its own source file, "read.S" which is included in the first-stage, and second-stage loader codes. The first stage loader uses a very stripped down read routine, since it only deals in single sector transfers. If BIOS does not support 32-bit packet calls, and the cylinder address overflows when the 32-bit address is converted to C:H:S, then a "9f" error code is issued.

• In short, LILO has solved this problem for some time now;)

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[castlan]

Come on now... The Linux Kernel itself is practically an alternative to LILO. If you DD a kernel onto a floppy it will boot. What exactly is the problem? Can't XOSL just stay out of the way and let the kernel load itself? How does it load Windows? I sure hope it doesn't need LILO for that!

By the way, Sultan... couldn't GRUB successfully out LILO? GRUB's flexibility has saved me a few times. With GRUB I might be able to boot more copies of Windows than the NT menu allows. It let me boot NetBSD without a native bootloader the first time I even tried it. Nothing but my unmodified GRUB floppy.

I sure wish XOSL was more than it is... I was eager when I first saw it. But now I can't even peruse it again, and I don't care enough to try to circumvent the slashdotting of the site.

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[sultanoslack]

XOSL is really pretty old. Since the GRUB homepage still says that it hasn't been released yet, I wasn't adventurous enough to try it about two years ago.

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[CyberKnet]

great way to fubar your linux system with a bad kernel. Always leave two options available in lilo: Current and Test. Install a new (unknown) kernel to test, and leave your current (known good) kernel in Current. When you are satisfied that the new kernel is good, then move it to Current and Test.

Re:But you still need Lilo...

[castlan]

Which homepage is that?

True, it's still not at 1.0 release, but that's more of a lack of desired features than instability. It works... they're just aiming a bit higher. Keep boot disks around just in case, but give Grub a shot. It works really well, as long as you can follow the documentation. Once you have it installed properly, it's flexibility really comes in handy, especially if you experiment w/ multiple OSes.

Clutter

[Innominandum]

I just looked at XOSL. It seems cool but it clutters your hard drive with unnecessary files. Couldn't they just fit it in the boot record?

Re:Clutter

[uchian]

It's only about a meg-and-half in size max. What, are you still booting your system from floppies, or is your pron directory so big you an't afford the space?

For me the advantage of XOSL (making my computer look nicer when I boot it in the morning) seruosly outwheighs using lilo or grub directly.

P.S. I'm one of those people who turns their computer off when they are not using it ;-)

Requirements

[scott1853]

As long as it doesn't REQUIRE a Linux partition, I'd be happy to use it.

Re:Requirements

[Tsian]

Nope, no requirements at all along those lines. It can install into its own partition (so helpful) and can also install onto a FAT partition (not sure about other partition types it can use). I can't tell you the number of times I've deleted my Linux partition without thinking, only to kill Lilo and booting with it. XOSL has saved my a few times to say the least ;)

Re:Requirements

[scott1853]

Not sure that I'd want a boot loaded requiring ANY partition. I'd want something that would fit in the first track of the HD, which is where bootloaders should go.
Ideally, the bootloader itself should still work even if I decide to remove all my partitions.

Resolutions up to 1600x1200

[JohnHegarty]

Resolutions up to 1600x1200 ... about time , i am fed up of bootloaders that only do 1024x768...hmmmmm

Re:Resolutions up to 1600x1200

[t]

The first time I booted mklinux on a mac I was amazed. Damn it was beautiful text. There were so many lines that you could actually browse all the kernel messages. It made my x86 linux box look weak.

t.

Suspicious Title

[Cylix]

Although I'm certain it should read 'and' and not 'amd', it brings up certain other questions.

I'm wondering Rob's true intentions. I believe he might be trying to send subliminal messages to buy AMD chips.

Rather quite SLACKWARE mischievious LINUX if you ask me.

War stories?

[Glock27]

OK, I'm going to need to set up a system with Win98, Win2K and Linux (RH 7.2) all booting from the same 30 GB drive (other storage on system is two 80 GB ATA100 drives on a Promise controller at Raid 0). It looks like XOSL might be just the ticket!

Any suggestions on install order and which boot loader to use? Anyone attempt something similar with XOSL? Would Grub be better since it's included with RH 7.2?

Thanks in advance for your opinions!

299,792,458 m/s...not just a good idea, its the law!

Re:War stories?

[gorillasoft]

98 has to be first, because it will overwrite your boot record and render your other installs unreachable without boot floppies. Personally, I would create the partitions in the sizes that I wanted for each OS beforehand, then install 98, followed by 2000, and lastly by Linux.

Actually, I have done this, so I guess you can say it's what I *did* do - and followed by adding FreeBSD and another Linux version at later times, plus Windows 2000 Server for testing purposes. It can be done pretty easily if you do the research beforehand.

Re:War stories?

[Friday]

I've been using xosl for some time now and I have my system setup almost exactly the way you want yours, I have Mandrake 8.1 (beta3) instead of RH.

The main thing I would tell you is to use a dedicated partition for xosl, that way if you blow up your 98/DOS partition you'll still be able to boot your other OS's.

Once you have xosl installed you should be able to install your OS's in any order you want, I chose Linux, 98 then 2K. One problem I had with 2K is that it kept calling it's system drive D: or G: or something retarded like that instead of C:. I got around that by hiding all the other partitions on my drive but the one I wanted 2K on, you can use xosl to do this. Another trick I discoverd, the hard way, is attempt to boot the partition your about to install to before you actually do the install. I think this just sets the Active bit on the partition, but it makes the install of the Windows OS's smoother.

Re:War stories?

[b0bby]

As others have noted, install 98, 2000, & then Linux. Grub does great; I use Mandrake at home in just this config, and the reason I used Grub in the first place was that a couple of years ago (it's probably changed now) LILO wouldn't boot to a partition beyond the first 8GB or so. Grub would, & I've been using it ever since. So I have a small 98 partition, a large NTFS one, & then a medium Linux install. On boot, you see grub & if you choose windows, you get the NT loader, where you can choose 98 or 2K.

Re:War stories?

[Saint Aardvark]

I wish I'd known about this earlier. I've been trying to install Win98, Solaris, Linux and FreeBSD on one 40gb hard drive, following installation instructions I found in this month's SysAdmin magazine. The trouble came afterward: the Solaris partition was past cyl. 1023, so LILO couldn't boot it. And I couldn't figure out how to get Grub to boot a Solaris partition; the usual rootnoverify() and chainloader +1() didn't work. Sez here that XOSL supports Solaris; very nice. But after my sixth re-install of Debian and FreeBSD, I'm getting a little sick of it all...

Appears to need Lilo

[SiliconJesus]

According to the page...
XOSL is known to support

• BeOS
• MS-DOS
• FreeDOS
• Linux (with Lilo)
• Solaris
• VxWorks 5.x
• Windows 95/98/Me
• Windows NT/2000
• ...and others...

I read that as meaning it just boots up lilo, it still needs it to run Linux. Presumably, you'd install lilo on the partition, instead of the MBR.

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[Spy Hunter]

Yes, XOSL is not a LILO replacement. All it does to boot an OS is call that particular OS's bootloader (which must be installed on the OS's partition), which then does all the hard work itself. It's a nice way to select your OS if nothing else.

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[zaius]

Correct. It doesn't replace LILO, but sits above it in the booting hierarchy.

I stumbled across it while trying to put NT (not my decision) onto a machine that had previously had Linux and LILO on it. For some reason, NT wouldn't install it's bootloader over LILO, and LILO wouldn't boot to NT, because I couldn't configure it because Linux was no longer on the machine. So I installed XOSL, and everything worked.

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[Ozric]

get a dos boot disk with some utils

a:\fdisk /mbr

done -
install NT --- icky ---

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[NutscrapeSucks]

It looks like a replacement for the commercial program "System Commander", which runs for around $75 last I checked.

(Although, System Commander does other neat things like remapping drives, multiple DOS/Win installs, and boot support for some obscure OSes.)

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[ThatComputerGuy]

Yes, it's not?

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[Spy Hunter]

That's correct. The original post I was replying to said that it didn't look like XOSL could replace LILO, so I said yes, he was correct, it couldn't.

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[castlan]

Even better, get a GRUB boot disk. You can use it to boot Linux, Windows, and whatever the hell else you can find.

# For booting Windows NT or Windows95
title Windows NT / Windows 95 boot menu
rootnoverify (hd0,0)
makeactive
chainloader +1
# For loading DOS if Windows NT is installed
# chainload /bootsect.dos

# For booting Linux from hdc3
title Linux 2.4.2
kernel (hd1,2)/boot/vmlinuz-2.4.2 root=/dev/hdc3 #single

Re:Appears to need Lilo

[eMilkshake]

fdisk /mbr ?

Please enlighten me

[RelliK]

Besides graphial boot screen, what else does it offer that LILO and Grub do not? (btw, it's already possible to have graphical boot screen even without it). And while we are on the subject, what does Grub have that LILO doesn't? What's the point of switching the boot loader?

Re:Please enlighten me

[Spy Hunter]

GRUB understands filesystems. This means you can drop into a simple GRUB shell and poke around your partitions looking for a kernel to boot. It's really a lifesaver if you mess some stuff up by accident. You can also change kernel boot parameters and do other stuff all from within the bootloader before your OS is loaded, making it much nicer than LILO.

Re:Please enlighten me

[wbattestilli]

It's pretty and it works like Windows. That won't get it much admiration in this crowd, but normal people will like it better. They already know how to use it.

Re:Please enlighten me

[Ardax]

As others have said, Grub understand filesystems.
By default I know that it can handle ext2 and reiserfs, and someone is maintaining patches for JFS and XFS. I'll have to double check on FATx and NTFS when I get home tonight.

What's really nice is that I didn't have to pull any fancy tricks to get it to triple boot Win98, Win2000, and Linux (I'm not super familiar with Linux yet, so I can't wipe Win2k yet, and Win2k only plays EA games when logged in as Administrator, so Win98 stays for gaming. Don't even mention XP to me). Run it's setup, make a config if you want, have fun. Just install it last so the various MS bootloaders don't blow it away. Hell, even if they do, use your handy dandy boot disk (you DID make one of those, didn't you?) and reinstall it.

It also does partition hiding. I don't want my Windows 2000 partition to see my Win98 partition (mostly because I'm neurotic, but someone might have a more legitimate reason), so my grub config hides my win98 partition from Win2k before booting it. Whee! Now I believe that LILO may also be able to do this, can anyone confirm?

Hell, the grub command shell can even do tab-filename completion, and some basic partition management!

Re:Please enlighten me

[redhog]

In addition, GRUB supports several ways of booting an OS, in addition to loading a (possibly compressed) Linux kernel. This includes the OpenBoot specification, supported by some of *BSD, and some other (native) ways of booting several BSDs. And as you said, it understunds filesystems. You can even do a find to find a file with a particular name on any partition, from within its shell. It understunds ext2fs and fat, and some other. And it understunds netbooting using BOOTP and TFTP. And, on top of it all, it feels like the real boot monitor of a workstation! You can even install it from within itself (when booting from a floppy)!

Re:Please enlighten me

[daevt]

why i use grub.
i used to use LILO, but after forgetting to run lilo after a compile one time too many i started to ask around. grub doesn't have to be run after every little change i make to my kernel. grub has a very simple selection method. it understands ext2fs, and will autocomplete if you want to search for some kernel in the bash-like shell. i can edit the menu file with easy, and even from the bootloader its self.

in a word, options. with grub i can push kernel arguments without going through the pain of hitting tab, typing out the kernel name, hoping that i rmembered to rerun /sbin/lilo, and then doing kernel arguments. grub makes it easy, and elegent.unless you have no good kernels, its hard to fuck yourself with grub.

try it, tell me i'm wrong. please, i have a feeling, that if you are willing to be objective about it, you will see where grub supercedes lilo. at least give it a try, theres a reason that many of the big name distros either are changing over to grub, or already have.

Re:Please enlighten me

[smunt]

You mean, the MultiBoot specification. It's needed for the HURD.

Most OSes have bootstrapping code to avoid chicken-egg problems while booting.

Re:Please enlighten me

[erikdalen]

well, it can boot loads of more OS's. GRUB can boot all multiboot compliant OS's, for example HURD & VSTa.

/Erik

Ummm....

[Kailden]

Microsoft file system partition hiding support for those Linux users who don't want to admit they are dual booting??

nice, but...

[fizz-beyond]

Ok I'll admit it, it's pretty, however (there's always one of those huh), it says it requires a mouse (either PS/2 or serial). I have a mouse but oh wait I can't use it damn me for keeping up with hardware and having a USB mouse...

was that too sarcastic?

Re:nice, but...

[Pedersen]

was that too sarcastic?

Considering that you can find adapters to convert USB to PS/2 all day long (and I'm using one here at work to convert my USB to PS/2 for NT4.0), I'd say yes, you were too sarcastic.

Yes, it needs LILO

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

from their FAQ:

"Installing GNU/Linux

If you're installing Linux, install LILO in the Linux partition's boot sector (superblock). You can safely ignore the warning that says you won't be able to boot Linux. XOSL can do the job."

this mean the hassle of running lilo everytime you recompile the kernel still exists with XOSL.

I rather use grub. don't need to rerun it every new kernel and it allows me to edit entries in the menu during boot...

Re:Yes, it needs LILO

[wfaulk]

I'm not a grub aficionado, but shouldn't you be able to use it in place of lilo even in their example?

Re:Yes, it needs LILO

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

hmmmmmmm... probably yes. I'm not as familiar with it as I am with LILO (never hacked it's config files and never used it to dual boot with win... linux only machine :-) ), but I spose if you use it, you'll end up with two subsequent graphic menus to chose OS.

If you use XOSL, I think LILO would a smarter choice to load linux kernel. Imagine a situation with 1 copy of windows and 2 linux distros in the same drive. you can use only one XOSL menu to chose OS.

If you choose win, it'll boot the FAT partition and you'll be in billOS, but if you choose one of the linux distros, it'll load the LILO copy of that specific partition and load that distro.

Why is better to have two LILOs in this sistuation ? easy. no typing to select the distro once "LILO boot:" shows up.

XOSL is nice, but not perfect

[delay]

The perfect bootloader would be a combination of Grub and XOSL.

I used XOSL in the past: while I think that it's nice, it's not perfect. What it lacks are some Unix/Linux-specific functions:

It should be possible to browse a filesystem and to select a kernel on it to boot. It should be possible to pass "command line parameters" to the kernel (like mem=256...). It also would be cool, if XOSL had the option to set the textmode, one wants to boot an operating system in (like dos...). It would be necessary to have an Unix/Linux-based install to be attractive to Unix/Linux-people, booting from an dos-bootdisk just isn't sexy...

All in all, XOSL is nice but not perfect. I'll stick to grub, until XOSL matures...

Re:XOSL is nice, but not perfect

[RedBear]

XOSL can be installed on a non-DOS dedicated partition without requiring DOS at any step of the process. I've done it.

XOSL is a very nice bootloader. It's not just the fact that it's graphical, it's also the myriad of other features that make it nice. For instance when you go into the partition setup it shows you what partitions are available and can usually identify the OS residing on that partition. Compare that to the LILO text config file where if you're not lucky you have to hand edit and remember which /dev entry corresponds to which partition and which partition contains which OS. You're a moron if you think the average user should be expected to be able to go through that process. With XOSL I can point and click and set up a boot menu with a dozen different operating systems in a few seconds. Plus I can hide partitions, which makes it easy to run multiple copies of WinXX of whatever flavor on the same disk. You can also password protect the setup and each individual partition in the menu can have its own password, or none. Again, all that is done through a point-and-click interface. One of the best features for me was the fact that XOSL doesn't require ANY OS to be installed on the computer in order to be set up and changed.

Questions I always see here, like "What does this have that LILO doesn't have?" are incredibly idiotic. So many of you seem to forget that normal humans need to be able to use computers. Making something easy to use is not necessarily a bad thing. I don't understand why the open source community is so full of people that seem to do nothing but beat down new or different ideas.

Re:XOSL is nice, but not perfect

[delay]

I don't think we really understand each other. I don't say, it's fucking bad. I think that XOSL is a reasonably good OS-loader. It's easy to use. It's good enough to fire up a Windows install on a hard disk. But still it lacks some features. It can't boot my kernel whitch resides on the partition /dev/hdd9 with my xfs partition managed by the linux volume manager, that is located at /dev/sda7 or somewhere else... This sureley isn't important for everyone, especially not for windows users. Also it's silly that one needs a dedicated partition. But otherwise XOSL is fine! Use it if you want to. But a windows-like gui doesn't turn me on at all. I need a reason to change, and thus a question like "What does this have, that Lilo doesn't have?" is perfectly valid (although I didn't ask it). If someone who really likes XOSL needs a feature it lacks, he can surely implement it. But I don't need it now, and will stick to grub.

Can someone enlighten me?

[tuxlove]

Why do we need yet another bootloader? Lilo seems to be able to boot any OS you might want to run. Grub does the same, apparently (don't know much about it yet), but gives some additional functionality for controlling SMP boots, has a graphical interface, etc. Why didn't someone just modify Lilo to do that?

What does XOSL bring to the table that other bootloaders don't have, or couldn't be made to have with some development?

Pretty soon our bootloaders will be OSes in themselves.

Re:Can someone enlighten me?

[Darth RadaR]

Why do we need yet another bootloader?

[aol]
Me too!
[/aol]

I'm also thinking, "Great. Now I have to figure out how to configure Yet Another Bootloader."

One problem with Linux is that you often get 50 different development projects that all end up trying to do the same thing. Don't get me wrong, choice is good. but fer cryin' out loud do we *really* need 20 or so different boot-loaders? Why not just improve on something existing that is proven and people are more familiar with. It's not like you can't get the sources for Lilo.

But, I digress....

Re:Can someone enlighten me?

[jonestor]

The same reason that there are bunches of windows managers and editors.

Everybody likes something different.

Re:Can someone enlighten me?

[Prior Restraint]

Why not just improve on something existing that is proven and people are more familiar with. It's not like you can't get the sources for Lilo.

It was my understanding that lilo is free, but not Free.

Re:Can someone enlighten me?

[Pedersen]

From the file COPYING, included in lilo 21.4.3:

LILO program code, documentation and auxiliary programs are
Copyright 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger.
All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in source and binary forms of parts of or the
whole original or derived work are permitted provided that the
original work is properly attributed to the author. The name of the
author may not be used to endorse or promote products derived from
this software without specific prior written permission. This work
is provided "as is" and without any express or implied warranties.

Seems, to me, to be both free and Free.

Re:Can someone enlighten me?

[tuxlove]

You sound like some M$ guy asking: "Why would someone install anything but Windows?"

If Windows was GNU, had a Linux kernel, and came with a bash shell prompt and all the usual Linux utilities, I might just ask that question. However, your analogy is a poor one for obvious reasons. I think i've asked a legitimate question because it's not at all clear to me what the differences between these bootloaders are, and why I would choose one over the other.

My final point in my previous posting, while admittedly a bit rhetorical, is that it seems like the newer bootloaders may be going a bit overboard in the feature department. I fully believe in the KISS philosophy (Keep It Simple, Stupid), and that gratuitous functionality just adds bloat to something that's supposed to be simple.

I'm waiting for someone to add "rogue" to the bootloader so I can play games while deciding which partition to boot from. :)

Re:Can someone enlighten me?

[Prior Restraint]

My bad. I use grub, so I didn't have a copy of the license to look at. I always assumed the license was part of the reason the FSF preferred grub. I'll go stand in a corner now.

Different?

[interiot]

XOSL gets installed on its own partition, since it's so large. How is this different from installing a mini-linux distro on its own partition, and then doing some smart booting from there?

Re:Different?

[stevek]

I don't think you can boot linux (or DOS, for that matter) from linux, so that wouldn't work.

Re:Different?

[cycokiller]

You can boot Linux, OS/2, Windows, DOS, Athena, BeOS from Linux in my experience. I use Grub currently to do all this. You can also use the NT/Win2k loader to boot any of the above (except maybe OS/2, never tried OS/2 from the NT loader).

Re:Different?

[DickBreath]

How is [XOSL on own partition] different from installing a mini-linux distro on its own partition, and then doing some smart booting from there?

Because at the present time, XOSL is still limited by the fact that it doesn't yet have:

• Device drivers for good 3D support on suitable hardware
• Good themes with animation and translucency
• Good screensavers
• A good web browser
• An office suite and productivity software

Not new at all.

[booch]

There hasn't even been a new version released since December 2000. (Which happens to be when I looked at it and realized how cool it is.) Not only is this the wrong kind of news for Slashdot, it's not even news.

Re:Not new at all.

[Eugene O'Neil]

I think it is exactly the sort of news slashdot is known for, but I do agree that it isn't news.

OT : What is wrong with lilo?

[nusuth]

I'm no linux expert, in fact for anything nontrivial I have to read howto's, man pages and whatnot. Yet, I have no problems at all using lilo. For a few times I forgot to rerun lilo after modifying lilo.conf and that is the only problem I had with it.

new product!

[kypper]

Lilo amd Grub...

Wow... didn't know AMD made Grub...

That company's just full of surprises!

Smart Boot Manager.

[SubtleNuance]

Ive got the GPLed Smart Boot Manager in my bootsector, and LILO in my /boot. Its sub-30k and lives in the first sector of your disk.

Check it out, small, easy, quick and allows you to boot from CDROM where you may not be able to normally.

Thanks to "James Su (suzhe@gnuchina.org), Lonius (november@video.mdc.tsinghua.edu.cn) and Christopher Li (chrisl@gnuchina.org)"

Re:Smart Boot Manager.

[Shanep]

Yeah, SBM is great. I've been using it since late 1999 early 2000.

It has some great features, one in particular I like is the boot scheduling. You can configure it to automatically boot a particular partition based on the time of the day and get it to hide partitions also, depending on what partition you want booted.

What on Earth would you want with Boot Scheduling?... I supported a medium size .edu environment where students (who thought they were leet haxors) would like to stuff things up on the work stations. Combined with getting the BIOS to automatically switch the PC's ON late at night (when nobody is there), I could get SBM to automatically boot a hidden partition, which in turn runs Ghost to restore the SOE.

It was pretty cool. During the day, students could switch the PC ON, PC would boot straight to NT (NOT see any boot manager) and use it. But at 11pm that night, all the PC's would suddenly come ON, Ghost would come up automatically and restore the student workstation image to all the PC's, then about 3 minutes later (after the Ghosting has finished) the PC's would all power OFF.

My boss and his was pretty amazed at this. It allowed us to remove warez, mp3's, bad print jobs stuck in spools, viruses (mostly macro:), leet haxor settings and generally restore the machines to a state that is exactly the same as every other students, the teachers and all the other classes. Doing this manually on around 300 student PC's was a nightmare.

Another neato use for SBM's boot scheduling is getting all the PC's to automatically start some networked number crunching after business hours. Render farm, search for alien life or a cure for cancer anyone?

as for grub vs LILO

[blonde rser]

grub has the ability to read file systems (ext 2 definitly... I'm not sure about ntfs or fat32) so you don't have to setup a .conf if you don't want to. You can just search around your tree until you find your kernel image and just boot off that. Or you can just point it to a partition and it will use what ever boot loader is there (windows boot loader or lilo or whatever). Saves you a little time when you change your kernel. Plus grub on a floppy can be used to get virutually any linux system going; unlike a lilo rescue disk which either needs its own kernel or to be specially made for the system. Plus grub is slightly more tolerant to allow the user to make stupid mistakes (like over writing the old kernel image and forgeting to re-install lilo... or so I hear)

I can't answer XOSL advantages for you unfortunatly... although it would allow you to set up a multiboot system without a keyboard. Although not useful for most systems I can see a specialty system where you might want to do this. On the most part I think it's just kinda cool to have a graphical boot screen.

Re:The word "Nifty"

[RLiegh]

Don't worry, Microsoft is working on your behalf to elimenate it. :D

Re:USB Mouse?

[cant_get_a_good_nick]

Not sure, but I think most BIOSs will talk to the mouse using the simpler USB boot protocol and fake a PS2 mouse. Check your BIOS for Legacy USB. The trick then is: Is your OS smart enough to turn this off and let your USB devices run free. Probably not.

What about my usb mouse?!?

[blonde rser]

I was already to give XOSL a test spin when I noticed it doesn't support usb mouses. That's when it occured to me that I don't really want a boot loader that needs its own set up device drivers.

Re:What about my usb mouse?!?

[_Bean_]

It happens to work fine with a usb mouse and even if it didn't there's this thing called a keyboard...

Re:What about my usb mouse?!?

[Omnifarious]

For all of you who are sitting here on this thread chewing this guy out, he's complaining that the thing needs its own device drivers, not exactly that it doesn't support a USB mouse. On this, I agree. I don't need a mini-OS just to boot my OS, that's silly.

Re:What about my usb mouse?!?

[castlan]

I couldn't agree more... If I were willing to use such it boot loader, it would probably be DOS. Better support, greater variety of Bootable OSes, and more functionality built in. Mosts BIOSes are fully supported by/supportive of DOS, and any OS available can write to a FAT filesystem (for editiing Autoexec.bat)

Re:What about my usb mouse?!?

[swillden]

I was already to give XOSL a test spin when I noticed it doesn't support usb mouses. That's when it occured to me that I don't really want a boot loader that needs its own set up device drivers.

I suggest you give it a spin. If your BIOS supports USB mouses and keyboards, I'm pretty sure XOSL won't see any difference between USB and traditional devices. That's the purpose of the USB mouse and keyboard settings in BIOSes; to tell the BIOS to present your input devices to the operating system as though they were ordinary.

Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fine

[devphil]

If there's only a single OS listed in boot.ini, then no boot menu is given. (What would be the point?) The bootloader just boots it without prompting.

By default, Windows is the only one it lists. (No surprise there.) I copied my Linux bootsector to BOOTSECT.LNX, added another line to boot.ini, and then I had a choice at boot time: Windows 2000, or Linux. To do all this I followed the mini-HOWTO at linuxdoc.org; that HOWTO is now several years old, I believe. It was originally written for NT 4.something.

Your article is complete uninformed flamebait.

Ah...

[Anonymous Coward]

how i've missed Taco's spelling errors. Thanks, you've made my day!

Re:Damn Linux Zealots

[JohnHegarty]

and lets check what i wrote

"Install 95/98/ME and it just sets its self as the only os , and thats the end of that."

don't see NT, 2000 or XP listed. And did i mention linux.

slightly off-topic...

[Belgand]

hmmm... I remember having a problem with LILO for the longest time in that it would only work from a warm boot either soft or hard, but a cold boot would kill it and I'd need to get in again from a boot disk and run it again. Running it on a 1.6 gig drive so size wasn't likely the problem... still never figured it out.

boot loader?

[Lxy]

I know there are some features that make certain bootloaders better for certain things. I use LILO, the latest build is pretty nice. GUI if you want it, no GUI if you don't. Grub has some decent features, most notibly being able to pass it kernel options at boot time. But what the heck does this offer? Mouse drivers? 1600x1200 resolution? Will it run on my Pentium or do I need to upgrade?

I may be cynical, but this is just a little too weird....

Looks a bit TOO nice for me.

[archen]

I'll stick with the Free BSD boot loader. It looks sufficiently evil enough so that people don't touch my computer.

This software may work... but

[eyeareque]

I personally use OSBS http://www.prz.tu-berlin.de/~wolf/os-bs.html this app works amazingly well, and offers features that have saved my ass a few times. You can hide *nix partitions from winbl0wz, (if you are lame enough to use windows--I used to be guilty of this.) by changing the partiton type from the osbs app. this will keep ms from killing your existing lilo, grub or whatever bootloader. also, make note that this application (the free version. The new release is not open source, or free, can be found on www.bootmanager.com) was released in October of 1993! I personally hate it when people upgrade to the newest release, just for the hell of it. Time can be wasted in more productive ways.

What's wrong with LILO?

[Lord Kestrel]

It's easy to use, easy to configure and boots everything I care about. I'll admit it could be tricky for a beginner, but it's very simple to learn.

If it ain't broke, why try to fix it?

Re:Works with USB

[fizz-beyond]

Ok, the only reason I mention it is because they don't have it listed on their web page. as a matter of fact they only list PS/2 and serial, but hey if it works then good deal

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[DoubleD]

Once again generalization, blanket statements, and incomplete skimming of a comment have given life to the word flamebait. heh i love it when that happens.

Windows, of the 9x family are self centered bastards who refuse to live well with other os's. They even hate their older wiser cousins of the NT variety. Luckily they are stupid bastards too and as long as you install them first other, better OS's can sneak in and live with 9x.

DD

Re:Damn Linux Zealots

[davidsmind]

Um how do i put this, win 9x and me are the most popular forms of windows, so when somone makes a generalisation that isent refering to the NT string of windoze just assume thats what they mean. Don't blame Linux zelots everywhere for pointing out flaws in a flawed system. (BTW by flawed system I am talking abot the NT strains of Windoze as well)

Good idea, wrong implementaion?

[Lxy]

Why anyone would need a GUI driven bootloader is beyond me. They even recommend a Pentium 100, which seems a little hefty to BOOT AN OS.

What they do have is an incredibly lightweight GUI with mouse support and a res of up to 1600x1200. They boast a 300K footprint, which is really impressive! Screw the bootloader idea, run this puppy on top of the linux kernel and you have an open source QNX type product. That to me seems like a much better implementation. Run this on a Palm with memory to spare! Lots of potential, why'd they waste it on a bootloader?

Re:Good idea, wrong implementaion?

[infiniti99]

Seriously. It looks like it could be a normal desktop windowing system. As it stands, you're right it looks like a total waste of effort for a bootloader, especially if they coded their own widgets.

Why are there options like "show window contents while dragging" ? This looks like the coders were having way too much fun. Currently, my bootloader (LILO) shows no more than a single line of text. It wouldn't surprise me if in the near future XOSL gets a tetris game.

Does anyone know where their widgets came from?

Re:Damn Linux Zealots

[taniwha]

"I am so sick of Linux geeks that make unsubstantiated claims without any preexisting evidence"

Boy are you in the wrong place .... I think M$ has this little place called msn.com just for you ... I hear they're even makeing progress with their technical means of keep the Linux geeks out

Damnit. Port this to PPC.

[torpor]

What my tiBook needs is a good quality graphical bootloader so that I can choose OS9/OSX from *the same partition*.

Yeah, I know I could do this if I put OS9/OSX each on their own separate partitions. But I don't wanna do that.

Guess I'll quit bitching and go download the code, and see what its gonna take to make a PPC-friendly bootsector ...

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[jdavidb]

What's flamebait? The article said, "New XOSL is an alternative bootloader." Did you read it as "New XOSL is an alternative bootloader; let's see Windows do that; Windows sucks!"?

Not every post and article is an argument; some of them are just informative.

Your post is pretty informative, by the way.

question about grub...

[painkillr]

A dual boot machine w/ WinXP on active partition and linux on another primary partion. XP's partition is 10 gig's (beyond 1024 cylinders). I accidentally delete the linux partition, so grub becomes orphaned kind of.

You boot and it asks for a command and typing ? doesn't seem to help. How can I get grub to boot into XP after the linux partition has been deleted?

Re:question about grub...

[nitemayr]

sure,

type fdisk /mbr
lol

Re:question about grub...

[smunt]

try:
> root (hd0,0)
> chainloader +1
> boot

you might want to fiddle with the numbers in (hd0,0) (hd0,1) or whatever.

but you should keep a grub bootflop at hand for if you manage to fuck up your MBR.

Somebody needs beginners discrete math lessons

[Ogerman]

"free (as in beer and as in GPL)"

A and (A and B) = (A and B)

Therefore "free as in GPL" would suffice. (-:

Re:Somebody needs beginners discrete math lessons

[protonman]

Therefore "free as in GPL" would suffice. (-:

Prolly off-topic, but you're wrong. :-p Because you *can* charge money (as in beer, or at least where I come from ;-)) for your GPLed software...

Huh?

[pete-classic]

From the FAQ/HOWTO
also make sure, you install LILO to the boot sector of the linux partition. do NOT install it to the MBR. otherwise it will conflict with XOSL.

From the story
XOSL, an alternative to Lilo amd Grub

Clearly this is a usage of the word "alternative" whith which I wasn't previously familiar.

-Peter

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[Telastyn]

win2k will give a boot option if you remove the "fastboot" option from boot.ini. There will still only be one choice (perhaps 2, the safe mode as well) but it will look identical to the NT4 bootloader screen.

xfs compat?

[victwenty]

Does anyone know if this will work with the XFS file system? I know grub doesn't without a patch that is considered beta and I'm interested in playing with something other than lilo.

can you say slashdotted?

[kinaole]

why do we have stories that link to free/throttled web sites?

Too many accesses today

[OpenMind(tm)]

I'm really impressed by this approach to traffic control. "Your web site has been accessed too many times, so it has to sit in time out for the rest of the day."

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[devphil]

Uh, dude, I'm not replying to the main article. I'm replying to another comment. Care to check again?

Windows beware :

[redzebra]

... it has graphics,windows,mouse support
so let's just boot applications iso of operating systems...
( who needs those anyway ??? )

red ---

Uh-oh

[eander315]

Access denied

This homepage has exceeded the maximum amount of traffic for one day. The page will be available again after the traffic counters have been reset at midnight local time.

Cached version of the front page here.

Re:Damn Linux Zealots

[JohnHegarty]

Yep ,they are... read here for more MSN Blocks Mozilla, Other Browsers [updated]

Give AMD a break, please!

[Powercntrl]

Okay, so the Tom's Hardware Guide video of two Athlons getting a bad case of China Syndrome was one thing, but this is totally uncalled for!

Poor AMD, first bad press - now a "grub" (obviously, a worm!) that targets only AMD processors. When will it end?

access denied

[frankarnold]

Great stuff for an upcomming brother to grub? Access denied This homepage has exceeded the maximum amount of traffic for one day. The page will be available again after the traffic counters have been reset at midnight local time.

I was unaware of this product

[rfc1394]

My home machine has a 30GB drive with Windows 98 on it because a number of games and other programs I have will only run on it.

When I formatted the drive I reserved 8 GB of space for alternative operating systems. I've tried several distros of Linux, and tried Atheos. In most cases I've deleted the alternative OS because either I wanted to try something else, or X would not work with the hardware on my computer, or whatever.

I don't think I'm that stupid. I've been a programmer for more than 20 years and I've been on-line for 15, going back to when BBSs were the height of high-technology communications. I've been around a while. But I've had trouble with making boot loaders and some systems work properly.

I tried GRUB. I tried LILO. First, I would have trouble setting them up or couldn't understand how to get them to work correctly. Or I couldn't install them unless I got the Linux (or Atheos) distribution running first, creating sort of a chicken-and-egg problem.

LILO was okay. GRUB was better: It would work okay at providing me with the means to dual-boot my computer.

But in every case if I changed something like deleting the LINUX distro because I wanted to try something else, the boot manager was tied to whatever distribution was on the non-windows partition which means that if I formatted it the boot manager couldn't find whatever information it needed so I now owned a boat anchor. This meant I had to find a rescue floppy, boot it up, FDISK /MBR the drive to allow Windows to be used, and so on.

Last Night I installed XOSL. Now, I was able to install this from Windows without having to do a whole bunch of contortions involving switching operating systems or using a boot diskette, could select which things to run, and it allows me to change what is going to run before the OS is even loaded, and also, it will keep the changes from run to run. (Grub would allow me to change things but only for that boot. Also when I removed the non-windows partition I could no longer boot at all.)

And it doesn't hurt that it looks nice. But that's a side issue. XOSL, for me, was easier to use and does a better job in its core capability than LILO (would never work because the Windows partition was above 8GB) or GRUB (worked as long as you didn't reformat the non-windows partition). I suspect that the functionality of GRUB or LILO will move into this product, and it could conceivably become "best of breed" in boot loaders. (I believe it is likely that people will start pulling the functions that aren't in this package from the others and adding them.)

This product is a tremendous improvement in usability from what was there before and I recommend it highly as well.

Paul Robinson <Postmaster@paul.washington.dc.us

other links since page is down

[ejbst25]

here are some useful other links (screenshots, downloads, and such) since the page was down (and google cache didn't catch it right)

http://www.onlythebestfreeware.com/program.asp?pro gram_id=76

http://home.media-n.de/lug-nb/software/xosl.html (In German for those of you who can't read it...use babelfish)

Been using XOSL forever and love it

[Xeger]

I've been using XOSL for 18 months now; XOSL itself is installed on a DR-DOS 7 partition which is also the first primary partition on my drive. The MBR of the drive contains XOSL. I quad-boot DOS, Windows 2000, Linux and BeOS and have never had any troubles doing so. XOSL really is an amazing tool. I'm glad to see it finally get recognition!

ACCESS DENIED

[EEEthan]

Damn...they hit their counter level for the day. That's a bummer--serious /. effect.

Anyway--it sure is hard to get interested in something when it's unavailable; maybe with a little bit more interest they can get some better hosting or something.

I've actually checked out this project before, a little bit, and it seems very cool. I'll have to give it a shot when it's back up.

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[Beowabbit]

Actually, when I've had to install Win 3.1 or Win 95 after installing Linux without having it overwrite Linux, I've had success by setting all the partitions to be type "DOS R/O" with Linux fdisk before installing Windows. Then I just have to boot from a Linux floppy or bootable CD and re-run LILO. Linux actually doesn't care what the partition types are, although most Linux install tools do, so you'll need to set them back before you reinstall/upgrade Linux.)

Hmmmmmmmm

[Malbosia]

One of the beutiful things about Linux, is rarely having to see the boot loader..

Boot selector not boot loader

[Argon]

Huh? This appears to be a boot selector (select a partition and let the OS loader do the work) rather than a real boot loader linux lilo or grub. Not that boot selectors are useless, I used to use a simple, nice, unsung one called OS-BS. I think I found it first on slackware, I think it still ships on the tools directory of debian.

Ganesan

Can't visit xosl.org

[NakNomik]

Looks like there is some limit on how many people can visit it per day. Does somebody have a cached copy? or alternate location?

oh good job /.

[the_2nd_coming]

the page is shut down because of us...won't open till midnight.

Alternate Site

[Joe Hardy (_yoda)]

I can't believe no-one has noted that the development project can be found at the following URL. Not sure why there are two sites, but this has screenshots, binaries, source, project info etc etc etc.

http://xosl.sourceforge.net/

Not particularly useful for BeOS users

[haggar]

BeOS comes with Bootman which is able to boot any number of DOS, WinNT, Win95, BeOS, Linux on any disk. I never tried it with FreeBSD slices, I admit, but otherwise, Bootman is rather powerful.
Besides, Bootman was created in '95. Good job, if you think of it.

Dual boot Linux?

[Zeinfeld]

I used to muck arround setting machines up to dual boot. In the end the best solution I found was to buy removable disk racks so I could simply plug in a disk with the appropriate O/S - much easier than mucking about in loader hell.

However these days I simply run Linux on one of the older machines and X-Window to it as needed from one of the Windows boxes. My TombRaider box makes a pretty good X-Terminal.

When a PC has an 18 month life from being bleeding edge to obsolesence the boxes soon start to mount up.

Re:Works with USB --- WITH HARDWARE ADAPTOR

[AtariDatacenter]

I think what they're saying and NOT SAYING is that while a USB mouse will work as a PS/2 with an ADAPTOR, this is a hardware adaptor. The problem with mine is that it keeps falling out of the PS2 PLUG, so I've been forced to go USB.

Multiboot? Boot from net?

[err666]

Does it implement the multiboot standard? Does it allow to boot kernels over ethernet? GRUB does both and these are it's main advantages, plus a full-features boot console.

If not, how can you say it's an alternative to GRUB?

Re:Totally wrong

[C0vardeAn0nim0]

Didn't know NT loader had the capability to load linux too. I'm not a win specialist. Thanx for the info.

You missed one...

[crisco]

emacs

Re:You missed one...

[ThatComputerGuy]

You mean emacs is only lacking it's own bootloader!

Another problem...

[RadioheadKid]

After further reading on this thing, it doesn't sound as great as it did in the beginning, turns out you need some form of DOS to get this thing loaded...from release notes:

Developer release 5. The install utility is only available for DOS/Windows 9x/Me. When you do not have DOS or Windows 9x installed, you can use either FreeDOS or DR-DOS. For both a floppy image can be downloaded at the download area. When FreeDOS is used, you will only be able to install XOSL to a dedicated partition. DR-DOS will also allow you to install XOSL to a FAT16 DOS drive.

Sounding more and more like its not all its cracked up to be...

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[i_am_nitrogen]

Windows 9x/ME has no boot.ini, it uses the old DOS boot loader (start whatever's on the partition marked "active"), so if you install lilo on a /dev/hda1 boot partition, and then mark that partition as active, the Windows 9x/ME boot loader will load lilo (or grub or whatever). By default, though, the Win9x setup program will set the Fat32 partition as active.

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[i_am_nitrogen]

Oh, I forgot to add -- has anyone yet tried to do any dual booting kind of stuff with Windows XP? Does its boot loader support other OSes by copying the boot sector in? Does it overwrite an existing lilo or grub when you install it? Not that I intend to use XP, I'm just curious if it's got the same boot loader as all previous versions of NT.

OMG! I'm a trendsetter!

[Talez]

I've been using XOSL for months... this is when you had to search google for it! I originally got it since Lilo refused to co-operate with BeOS and RedHat 6.2 decided to be a whore and install lilo by default.

Anyway, I was pretty pissed about that so I decided to go look for something that would load all my OSes by default... XOSL looked good, under a meg, supports 24 options, default boots, point and click. Something my grandmother could use to load an operating system :)

Some things learnt from experience:

• You need to install lilo. Put it at the start of the linux partition and not on the MBR. Then point XOSL to the Linux partition and tell it the partition is bootable (which it is now :)
  
• If you are like me and share a machine with others, you can put the default OS as something like Windoze and put a 3 second timeout for automatically booting windoze. Quite handy if you have many annoying and rather technically illiterate relatives :)
  
• This bootloader rocks :)
  

Talez

ReiserFS, and mirrors?

[ecloud]

So the page is slashdotted for the day... did anyone find out whether this can boot Linux from ReiserFS partitions?

Did anybody mirror the site?

Actually, it looks harder to use

[eean]

Since it does not fit in the MBR, like Grub or Lilo (or the windows boot loader, for that matter), but is in fact kind of its own little operating system it is harder to use.

I think I'll install it on my next computer because it looks nifty. It will impress family and friends.

Slashdotted

[The Pi-Guy]

Eet went byebye. Traffic limit over and out. --j0shua

It boots LILO, not Linux

[eean]

It doesn't boot Linux. It can boot LILO, which I assume does not have any problem with ReiserFS.

Does it work with Grub?

[eean]

It says that it works with LILO. Does anyone know whether it will work with Grub?

Re:Does it work with Grub?

[wampus]

yes, it does.
now lets type some randome crap so i dont see that damn cowboy message.
Slow down, cowboy! It sounds like a line from some gay pr0n. Ok, thats twenty seconds or so.

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[ThatComputerGuy]

Why do you say it's necessary to change partition types to DOS RO? You should be able to simply install Windows (however simple that is), then boot with a linux floppy/cd, and rerun lilo.

Alternate Website

[loconet]

Yah, seems xosl.org has a limit to the number of hits, and ofcourse we killed it ..hehe.
Anyways, you can check out some info on xosl at: xosl.sourceforge.net

My new invention

[Alcemenes]

It's called the whele. It's this really cool round thing you can put on cars and stuff to make them easier to move. Oh, wait, that's already been invented.

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[omega9]

You dual-boot Linux and XP exactly the same as with 2000.

Re:Damn Linux Zealots

[ninewands]

So, Your point is?

What webmaster NEEDS to trust a browser?

If it's a secure site, you don't trust the browser, you trust the certificate/public key YOU gave the browser.

Microsoft blocking Mozilla from MSN is just another case of "Damn you if you don't use Windows and IE ... " which is what got them into anti-trust trouble in the first place.

Access Denied -- They should move hosting!

[dido]

"The site has exceeded maximum traffic for the day." Jeez, these people ought to get an account on SourceForge for their project. At least SourceForge can weather a semi-decent slashdotting!

Re:Access Denied -- They should move hosting!

[carney1979]

After trying late yesterday evening (US EST), I tried again just now (8:44 AM US EST) and got this message, too. I wonder who the two lucky souls were who were able to actually access their page?

GAG - An alternative to XOSL

[chrysalis]

There's a similar project that I'm using everywhere regardless of operating systems : GAG.
You can download it from here .
Gag has no bells and whistles like XOSL, but it does the same thing. You create a little bootable floppy with it, and it's then easy to configure and install anywhere.
Gag supports multiple languages, it can swap disk ordering, it can protect bootup with a password, and I never had a single trouble with it.

Wanadoo homepages XSOL homepage

[EPDM]

When trying to access that particular page of that bootloader I came upon this.

Access denied
This homepage has exceeded the maximum amount of traffic for one day.
The page will be available again after the traffic counters have been reset at midnight local time.

WHat kind of bullshit is this!!!!
I thought that the meaning of websites and homepages was to "publish" stuff not pose restrictions to information?

If this is way the web is evolving then I dont want it.

Sourceforge

[rafa]

The author is working an a new version. he's set up a page on sourceforge here. It doesnt' seem to have been updated since Jan 28th this year, but his plans look exciting.

Personally I run xosl which then runs lilo. It's saved my bacon many times, really a very impressive tool.

I'm planing on replacing my lilo with grub next time I reboot, but that coudl be a little while ;)

Cached page

[benb]

The URL goves me "Access denied - This homepage has exceeded the maximum amount of traffic for one day.". Here's Google's cache: home - features.

XOSL is more a bootmenu, not a bootloader

[DABANSHEE]

Its akin to BootMagic or BootCommander, rather than a bootloader like lilo, grub, the NT bootloader in W2K & W9X's bootmenu.

& bloody good bootmenu at that - you can set up both your floppy & CDROM drives as selection entries in the bootmenu, so there's no need to change boot orders in the BIOS when you want to boot off the floppy or CDROM.

Mind you its a bugger to setup.

Nifty tricks ...

[QuiNNa]

I've been using XOSL for quite a while now, I use a usb mouse, and I install it on many of the systems I've dealt with.

the mouse issue is easy....You don't necessarily need one. The key bindings are fairly similar to the usual standards for gui's, tab to go between clickables, enter or space usually to press buttons or change selections, and once its set up you can switch between anything set up with simple cursor key and enter key manipulation. If I had a non usb mouse it'd just slow things down anyway.

Skimming through the above posts I've yet to notice two features (though I may of overlooked) as well of great use. The partition manager and cd boot software included can be handy at times, especially I'm thinking that the ability to boot off a cd is something missing of older systems that don't know how to boot from cd through the bios. The other use is to use the partition hiding feature to run things in ways they were never intended. My example is during a transition from one version of windows to another for any reason. Installing say, windows 98 and me on the same system would result in mayhem, but create two partitions on the same drive, hide first one when booting off the second and you can switch between happily using XOSL to fake the bios drive numbers and fool windows... Use a another parition as a shared data area and its even not too hard to get data across. Major usage: driver testing under different systems where a format and reinstall would just be plain overdoing it.

Other than that, those suggesting it as a replacement for lilo (or any other boot sector loader) might want to check the dry theory on booting wherever it is in the HOWTO's. The base use of XOSL is to boot sectors from another partition where XOSL is on the MBR (equivalent to the bootsector on /dev/hda (wd0c if I remember right on other variations of similar os's :-) ), whereas each partition has its own boot record to its own system (so lilo exists on the same partition as /boot usually, although nothing stopping it being on any other partition except silly limits not worth mentioning now ....)

Win98 vs. dual-boot

[87C751]

98 has to be first, because it will overwrite your boot record and render your other installs unreachable without boot floppies.

In my experience, Win98 will respect an NT bootloader and install itself as a boot choice. I've done that to several machines at work without problem. Never tried it with Win2K. Anything other than ntldr gets blown off in favor of the Win98 MBR.

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[Beowabbit]

Windows (3.1 and 95, anyway) will overwrite the contents of any Linux partitions unless you use this trick. There may be some fancy way of starting the Windows installer to cause it not to do that, but I wasn't able to find it. I got to a point where the choices were (paraphrased) "Yes, use all my hard drive for Windows" and "No, cancel installing Windows". Setting the partition types to DOS R/O caused Windows to silently ignore those partitions and not overwrite them.

Re:Flamebait.... Windows can boot multiple OSes fi

[joekool]

Just a note--their were several flavors of win95, and one of them performed exactly as you described(I believe it was the OEM version) Other versions give you a choice of formating the various partions, etc

Re:Not Needed

[torpor]

Doesn't work if you've got both OSX and OS9 on the same partition ...