Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Offers A Modified Settlement
inepom01 writes: "Just read a story here about Microsoft offering a different settlement proposal- this one would have two other companies join in on the foundation MS is establishing- Connectix and Key Curriculum Press. Since Connectix makes software that lets Windows programs work on Macs, seems like same old Microsoft tricks." gnovos points to another story at MSNBC on the shifting terms of this proposal.
I think we need the government an the people to properly scrutinize any settlement suggested by Microsoft. Even maybe go sofar as letting them have no say in it whatsoever.
And I thought their offer to provide the software was such a nice idea, too...
Here's the big question: How much does this matter with half the states contesting the settlement issue?
it's simply about microsoft looking out for their own interests. love them or hate them, they're a corporation, and it's in their best interest to be able to give out licenses for as much of the settlement as possible. why is this news?
...
personally, i think that microsoft shouldn't be the ones offering the settlement proposal, but that's another post altogether
...is up to the same old tricks. I hope the EU gets tired of putting up with their tactics and slugs them with a BIG fine. Say 300-400 million Euros. As for the situation in the US, they pretty much have a free reign to do as they wish. They might as well offer free ketchup and bottled water for students to make their own nutritious vegtable soup.
...i don't think that less than 90% of slashdot.org readers can say that they haven't supported microsoft's monopoly either at home or work.
Enough with the court-mandated solutions already. Even if Windows wasn't installed by default on basically every computer in the world, people would still request it, simply because no one has given them a better option. As was pointed out a few articles ago, Linux is still too hard to use, and doesn't have enough non-geek functionality. For all the Libertarian posturing on Slashdot, we should be the ones discouraging this court action and letting the free market decide.
I think MS should have to fund an organization that would itself decide what to do with the funds. They could distribute linux to schools, they could distribute Office. They could decide the best thing is to enhance linux for education and make an Edu.distro.
Just ensure that MS doesn't decide where the money goes or they will just put it back in their own pocket. History.
-pyrrho
What ever happened to the way our legal system used to work... where the guilty party didn't get to choose their own punishment? If all crime worked this way...:
:)
Pedophile: I hereby sentence myself as a sears child photographer!
Vandalism: I hereby sentence myself to work painting wall murals!
Rapist: Damn you all! I sentence myself to be a pornographic film star!
Serial Killer: Ah ha! A punishment! I sentence myself to 10 years in service of the islamic jihad!
It just seems like a ridiculous attempt at law, you know, to let microsoft pick how it's going to be punished. Or, wait, they can bribe the judges
I am sure the DOJ would be more then happy to allow MS to get bigger by merging in with another company. If the DOJ goes for that, they are *REALLY* dumb. Does MS really think they will be able to pull it off ? I don't see how this will help matters at all.
until (succeed) try { again(); }
And let the banner hits roll in for OSDN!
Michael Loves Me!
"Uh, I would like to be sentenced to 1,000 hours of community service supervising fatherless pre-teen boys after school under the supervision of Michael Jackson?"
Shouldn't the injured parties in this monopoly case decide what the punishment should be with judicial review. So far, all the remedies placed in front of the public seem to be a win-win for Microsoft. No punishment what-so-ever.
As a Mac User, I think Connectix might need to rethink their future if they are going to be a tool of Microsoft. How are they going to sell Mac software if they enable Microsoft to bulldoze its way through this monopoly case and the future of computing. Once Microsoft has gotten what they need, Connectix will be toast. Look at all those "Drive Doubler" companies from early 90s that were in Microsoft's court.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
When I went to highschool Mac was the computer of choice. Education is the only large area I can think of that Mac has a stronger following than M$ that I can think of. If PC's were to fill school with m$ products,then Mac would lose a large amount of sales. This is more of a long term investment than a punishment to m$.
What people seem to forget is that Microsoft has destroyed companies, hurt consumers, and generally played the all-around bad guy, and yet no only do they get to propose a "penalty" (I use that term lightly), but they get to propose a penalty that actually tightens their stranglehold!
Apple always did well in the school market, and now they have to stand aside as Microsoft "punishes" their way massively into that market.
"The market alone cannot provide sufficient constraints on corporation's penchant to cause harm." -- Joel Bakan
Sorry MS, if you throw a rock in the pool, you make ripples.
Why would Microsoft need Connectix to provide copies of Virtual PC? Seems like it could only be an attempt to put Windows on Macs. After all, MS Office is avaliable for Mac. I'm sure suitable Mac alternatives could be found for other windows products.
Or perhaps Microsoft would like to point out that Macs make for very slow windows machines.
Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
If ever I am in court I want the ability to write my own sentence like ms appears to be doing.
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Like that would ever happen any place else.
Let Microsft donate the money top school, with no strings attached.
If the school by stuff, fine. If not, tough luck.
I wouldn't mind if they had to dish out a bit more money as well.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
Does Microsoft understand the definition of punishment? Punishment/Settlement means that they have to do something for SOMEONE ELSE, not to further their interests (aka injecting their software into the mainstream). However! I need to look at this this way- whatever settlement, some company is going to benifit. It says that Apple has 1/2 of the pre-college market share, and this would increase Apple's share a bit, and lower Microsoft's share, but increase their presence in office software. The first settlement would only bring gain to Microsoft (hm, but really, they aren't gaining or losing anything). This might be what we planned, but thats only in schools. What's Microsoft doing about their monopoly in the real world, eh? I'm still for breaking up the company unless they can do something for the real world. What they're doing for shcools is just fine, but a monopoly is far reaching, and they've gotta be broken up. If they have this settlement, they still have a "monopoly" pure and simple.
How come every other industry has to give money to compensate for the wrong doing ( tabaco companies for example ), but the biggest player in the computer industry is allowed to give away software. Money has a fixed value, whereas software's value is ambiguos and can be decided by the developer. The only real settlement would be to force MS to either give money to charities and let them spend it in a way they ( the charities ) see fit. Another would be for the anti-competive contracts that MS is producing to be declared null and void in addition to the money.
Jumpstart the tartan drive.
For all the ideas that get tossed about, why dont' we create a slashdot settlement? Everybody chips in and tells the DOJ in plain words what's wrong with the microsoft ideas, and then proposes a fair settlement(s), and discusses why it's a better idea.
Please note that I said in theory, please direct all flames to /dev/null
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I don't see how Microsoft is being punished or how Microsoft is being regulated in a manner to prevent monopolistic actions. On top of that, who is Microsoft to suggest what their punishment should be? If a child does something wrong, do the parents listen to the child for what the punishment should be? This is ridiculous. On top of that, their punishment must not be too bad if another company is willing to be dragged into the donations/punishment. The punishment sounds more like good marketing and a extension of it's influence that would have otherwise not presented itself so easily. MS is basically offering what the school district may or may have not wished at all if this MS case wasn't going on. What if those school districts want linux boxes or apple computers? Do they get to decide? In other words, they are basically being handed Microsoft computers that they would otherwise not wish to have if given the choice but are accepting it cause it's free and there is no choice.
I long for the days of a proper senate grilling.
"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it further."
*coo-ahh* *coo-ahh*
She sat at the window watching the evening invade the avenue.
I don't think it could be considered a setllement if Microsoft had no say in it.
Somebody please explain to me how anything MS offers will punish it for overcharging consumers for Windows.
1. A $1billion pay out in software, hardware, and support is nothing, especially extended over a few years. MS grosses $1billion a *month* on its products. So they would pay fines equivalent to one month of income at most.
2. Making the schools choose their tech needs is cool, but if MS charges less directly than on the open market (see article quote from MS Spokeman) then why would schools select anything else?
3. What refurb'ed computers will be used? And wouldn't that mean running older versions of Windows? I'm guessing most schools aren't likely to buy older Macs.
4. What made Steve Jobs speak out so loudly about this? He's been very quiet on bashing MS, even after MS got rid of their non-voting investment some time back. He sent Avie to testify about MS wanting to "knife the baby" of QuickTime. Does he really feel secure to bash MS now, or is it that Apple really, really threatened by cheap MS software being given to schools? I'm guessing the latter since mercurial Steve was relatively restrained in his response and the legal brief Apple provided.
5. What happens when the support money (a paltry amount IMHO) runs out? Do the schools get stuck paying for support on old equipment running old software that isn't supported by their makers anymore?
I don't have a great solution. I'd prefer to see the schools be given a lump sum of money to invest in whatever they want (like textbooks or infrastructure improvements) rather than allow MS to get even further entrenched in one market they don't completely push around today.
kids in school don't need more computer hardware/software. They need more teachers and better teachers. Computer software is becoming easier and easier to use (even Linux), it doesn't take a whole lot of time to learn how to use a word processor and spreadsheet or do a google search these days. It's much more important to teach kids to read, write, and do math. If Microsoft, or anyone else for that matter, is really concerned about education in this country they should divert their efforts towards hiring top notch teachers, attracting them and keeping them with competitive salaries and benefits. Current teacher salaries are a joke, no wonder public education sucks. Offer starting salaries of 50-60k/year with full health and retirement, and hire M.S. degree level people.
NO CARRIER
One can't expect Microsoft to offer a settlement which doesn't increase its dominance in the market. That is the ultimate goal to which ANY of its actions can be attributed. Instead of Microsoft telling the federal government what it is going to do, it is time for us Americans to tell the government to tell Microsoft what to do. Unfortunately, this is an unlikely scenario, for a few reasons. First and foremost, Microsoft is a good money maker for investors. Secondly, Microsoft is an ENORMOUS intelligence asset for the feds, intentionally or not. Thirdly, Microsoft can spin this against any potential opposition: "Don't take the future away from our children!"
Microsoft scares me. It also scares many european and asian governments. BEWARE!
But Microsoft Deputy General Counsel Tom Burt said the software giant could help more schools under the proposed settlement, distributing more software at a lower cost than if the same schools went out and bought programs on the open market.
:(
... the same programs on the open market.
I love mainstream media...
Ieshan, this is a *settlement* in a *civil case*. Your rhetoric is way overblown and highly irrelevant to the MS situation.
Check it out.
tcd004
Think of it this way: if the goal of the settlement is to help the children at the schools, the deal makes sense. However, if the goal is to punish microsoft in the worst way they can, the deal doesn't make sense. To tell the truth, I'm not sure which would be better, but it seems the judge is leaning towards trying to get the most value to the most schools.
501 Not Implemented
I understand wiggling of Microsoft and attempts to put everything into its own software. What I don't understand is why Apple hopes people will go out and buy super-hyper-pricey Apple computer for a poor school? Sure they can. One computer instead of ten. But I hope it won't happen.
Kids need computers and more of them. Not one nice-looking (where each will have, say, 5 minutes of working time), but many regular ones.
And a choice of whatever OS they want.
Hyperom.com
"But Microsoft Deputy General Counsel Tom Burt said the software giant could help more schools under the proposed settlement, distributing more software at a lower cost than if the same schools went out and bought their programs on the open market."
The "their" in bold was added by me. Nuff said.
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Instead of the normal round of complaints, sometimes insightful comments, and mostly junivile comments, why not get involved and subimt something.
Information on the United States v. Microsoft Setlement
The Tunney Act sets forth procedures that must be followed whenever the United States proposes to settle a civil antitrust suit through entry of a consent decree. Pursuant to the Tunney Act, members of the public have an opportunity to comment on the proposed settlement before it is accepted by the court.
There, all the linkage you need.
I'm going to go back in my box and will think within the limits of my box: MS Sucks Linux Good I read too much Slashdot.
Notice he said the "open" market, and not the "Open Source" (or Free) market.-)
(Though Microsoft genuinely thinks the world would be a better place if more people used their software -- blame it on confidence, blame it on ego, blame it on a reality distortion field, I don't know -- so they really think kids would be "helped" more if they were exposed to "good" Microsoft software rather than "bad" Mac/GNU/BSD software.)
Note that Microsoft controls the prices of software on the open market (pretty closely), on the educational market, and under the terms of this plan. Whether Mr. Burt's statement is true or false is pretty much completely under Microsoft's control.
Motz is going to need the wisdom of Solomon to split this baby!
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The artical states that the states objecting to the current settlement want m$ to offer office for other operating systems, but then go on further only to specify macintosh. Now although linux/fbsd have a relatively small userbase, it can't be that much smaller than apple's 10%(?). Why has this been left out?
I guess one possibility is that linux/fbsd don't have a powerful central representative company thats constantly lobbing for them with regard to laws making them more appealing, or to increase their particapation in settlements such as this one.
Kinda annoying that the very thing that makes linux so useful from the development point makes it so useless from the political point.
**AA: a bunch of mindless jerks who'll be the first against the wall when the revolution comes
I still say MS should give the schools the cash and let them do what they want with it.. No regulations except it be spent on some sort of technology. It would make it less of a conflict.
Most likely MS would still get a big boost from it because the schools would feel they had to after all MS gave them the money.. But it will leave the decision in the schools hands to get what they truly need.
On the other hand if we do not have educated children in 10 years are so companies like Microsoft will be in sorry shape.
Maybe just ALL the technology should be give to the schools.. Let the companies get into a donation race if they want and see who wins.
For the life of me, I can_not remember any other suit reguarding anti-trust where the company at fault has held so much leverage in chosing its own punishment. Doesn't this defeat the purpose? Or is Microsoft so powerful and so influentiul (sp?) that they seem to be above the law?
Who else believes that by the time this is all said and done that Microsoft will have had NO reprocusions whatsoever?
Disclaimer: I have nbo hatred for Microsoft lik most people do, I've never been "forced" to use it. so I'm not baching here, I'm just curious. And yes, I know my spelling sucks, I'm lazy.
i'm pretty much against anything microsoft proposes, but i might be in favor of them donating some computers to schools if the schools got to choose what kind of computer and what o/s ran on the computer. if an unrelated party provided the school with documentation on the pros and cons of several options then they wouldn't necessarily choose microsoft. i'd be willing to bet several schools would choose macs, and hopefully some would choose linux. i'd love to see microsoft have to buy thousands of macs.
it's not an ideal solution, but it's better than the current proposal which would obviously extend their monopoly to the next generation.
If Microsoft is guilty of overcharging consumers why isn't the settlement about paying back the overcharge?? It seems this was a scheme to get me to donate money to poor inner city schools!
Quite frankly all of this MS bashing I see every day is getting tiresome. Can't people be a little more original? I know it's k00l and k-RaD to bash Microsoft, but c'mon. The Linux is perfect/Windows sucks rant is getting old.
Exactly what kind of "fair" Slashdot settlement do you think we could all agree on? The last time I proposed a fate for Microsoft, fair wasn't exactly topping my evaluation criteria.
1) iMacs that are targeted at schools are not "super-hyper-pricey," you dumbass.
2) All of the money a school may save by putting Wintel crapboxes in, and more, will probably go to pay someone to maintain the things-- you don't really think Windows can stand up to the destructive little brats in our school system these days, do you? Teachers can maintain Macs themselves in a short period of time.
So, M$ wants to give hardware and software to american schools... What about canadian schools and for that matter, schools in other countries?
I guess my gov will have to start its own monopolistic inquiry regarding M$.
I nice settlement would be M$ to give out money to open source groups, such as FSF. FSF procucts are available for all, not to a specific people.
But a true settlement would oblige any cie with more than $50M revenue to make public and document the formats of all data their software exchange/save. Data format should not be patentable and remain secret. How can one offer a competing product when you cannot or are not allowed to read legacy data? And who in their right mind will switch to a new system and abandon their valuable legacy data? A cie with 5000 documents in Word format will not switch to a word processor that cannot read and save them properly.
Remember the year 2000? They promised us flying cars. They delivered the PT Cruiser...
Punish them by making them buy a bunch of systems for poor schools. Say about $5billion worth. Disallow _any_ MS system or software to be purchased in this deal. All Macs, Linux boxes, etc. would be their only options.
Apple is the name of the company, Thanks
ahh come on...
of course microsoft need a say in these matters.
its like a criminal who have been found guilty in raping your goat. everyone in court knows about it, but since you are in bed with the funds of this criminal you can't laugh due to the implications it can forsake.
or take this one..
we have a criminal who have been found guilty for raping your goat, and since the judge is speechless and is holding back his laughs of the above reasons, the criminal can suggest his/her own verdict, and since noone dare talking reality about the case, the criminal looks to get his/her way.
so yes if you can understand the above mumbo jumbo of course the criminal should not have a say in these matters. they have been found guilty and shall receive its penalty. If justice is blind and noone call the cards in this situation, MS abused its monopoly, US LAW is in an even worse state than we fear.
"ohh your honor, so you have evidence that I did rape the girls, but because of my life is an integrated part of your system, hurting me, would be hurting yourself, and therefore you should let me state the penalty, cause I know better. Remember who run your computer systems, who's your dady"
It's a difficult situation.
I find it amusing that all of this new hardware/software/whatever is decided in the end is going to end up at all of these really poor schools that need money for capital repairs such as leaky roofs and peeling paint but Micoroft's settlement of the private suits is going to give these schools bright shiny new computers. I hope the leaky roof and the peeling paint don't screw up those new computers.
Think Michael Milken, junk bond king who put $900 million or so in his wife's name. Surely he wasn't trying to keep rightful claimants from recovering their lost retirement savings.
What people seem to forget is that Microsoft has destroyed companies, hurt consumers, and generally played the all-around bad guy,
Sounds more like Milken.
and yet no only do they get to propose a "penalty" (I use that term lightly), but they get to propose a penalty that actually tightens their stranglehold!
The real stranglehold isn't what these companies have, it's when business-friendly administrations let them get away with it. Last I heard, Milken was out of prison and working in charitable causes after his brush with cancer. I suppose he did suffer some in his prison, they probably let the greens get dry or didn't leave a mint on his pillow every day.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
As you know, Microsoft's first version leaves a lot to be desired, but they successively improve each subsequent version. They same goes for their legal arguments:
... errrr ... business.
Version 1.0: We are shocked, truly shocked that you'd think monopolistic practices are going on here!
Version 2.0: Oooooh!! Judge Jackson is sooooo mean to us.
Version 3.0: The country's at war, the economies in the toilet. If you DOJ staff / State AG's / Judges will just roll over and play dead, we can get on with world domina
[Insert pithy quote here]
My wife's school has 25 new (as of 2 years ago) Dell computers with m$ installed on them.
.. nor do they have the funds to obtain it. And to top it all off .. they school system is *NOT* allowed to take volenteer help. [I already offered to set them up for them] They belong to the school union, and I dont.
.. how many think they would be anywhere CLOSE to guessing right ?
they have all kinds of scanners, and networking equipment.
This was all donated via M$ as part of their Digital Divite plan. [My Wife works in a low income targed school]
Do you know how effective these machines are in this environment ?
they are still in their original packaging. There is no one on the school staff that has the ability to set up a network , let alone install software and keep it running. There is no internet access to the school
Great donation. some 50k of machines and software (har har) at the time. Yet my wife's teaching budget of $900.00 isn't enough for her to get enough of even the most basic of art supplies for her 350+ students.
Since it was a donation, the school board is not allowed to sell it. And use the $$.
So these things do *NO* good to anyone [exept microsoft and i suppose dell] because of the tax breaks.
If microsoft REALLY wants to help education, they should turn part of their marketing machine on the prospect of paying teachers a salery WORTH what they deserve. If my wife got $1 for each child a day that she teaches [WAY cheap for a babysitter] she would double her salery now.
that means she gets less than five CENTS an hour to teach a child. [per child of course]
if the average american parent we're to guess how much their student's teachers were paid to care for them a day
donate computers to schools indeed. Why not just put the money into their research department, and *SAY* they are developing a plan to improve schools ? Same effect.
--Ne auderis delere orbem rigidum meum, non erravi pernicose!
Inspired by the terms of the Microsoft settlement, where Microsoft settles by mostly donating CD-ROMs of its software, at a cost of 1/3 of a cent per disc (market value $799), the US Government has declared it will immediately discontinue its practice of paying tax refunds from treasury funds, and instead print new money for any further refunds.
Secretary of the Treasury Paul O'Neill said, "I have learned that it only costs us 6 cents to print a dollar bill. In fact it only costs 6 cents to print any denomination, so I'll be printing a bunch of hundreds for every American."
President Bush praised the plan by saying "We can immediately gave every Americans a tax rebate of $100,000 dollars, at a minimalum cost to the governement. That will really kick-start our economy. That will show the terrorists we won't back down." President Bush added that anyone who disagrees with his plan will suffer the same fate as terrorists.
In appreciation for his excellent idea, Microsoft's Chief Software Architect Bill Gates will be presented a half-million dollar award from the US Government, at a lavish banquet, paid for with the newly-printed dollars.
Interestingly, Mr. Gates requested his award be given to him in the form of gold bars rather than printed currency.
The attorneys for both sides came up with this stupid settlement because they figured that once they split up their enormous legal fees and court costs, the victims (us) would only get about ten dollars apiece, and they assumed that none of us would want that small an amount of money. They also made a second braindead assumption that the states would be able to reduce my school taxes because of this windfall. Yeah, right. When pigs can fly.
Well, nobody asked me. I want the ten bucks, damnit.
MS should have to give up cash, as that's what schools need.
However, I think they should also be forced to lower their prices for educational customers. Dramatically. This way schools have a choice - and a little bit more in the piggy bank either way.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
That kind of fine could probably be paid out of petty cash at Microsoft. And the irony is that the fine would get paid by Microsoft charging more for software and licenses. So in the end it really becomes little more than a tax on software users rather than a useful remedy. Remember, fines, settlements, etc, are nothing more than costs of doing business, so if your costs go up, your prices have to go up correspondingly.
Just look at what happened with the Tobacco lawsuits. Are any tobacco companies going out of business? No. They are just charging more, which just makes it more expensive to smoke, but most addicts just cope and pay the additional cost. What happened to all the money from that? Well, here in Chicago, a bunch of money went to property tax refunds. Apparently those most effected by the tobacco company practices were... land owners... yeah that's it...
Either make a regulatory change to make it impossible for Microsoft ot operate the way it has, or break them up. Fines are a complete waste even if you charge them real money instead of making them pay in software licenses.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Microsoft proposes changes
December 10, 2001: 12:51 p.m. ET
Software maker seeks to modify private settlement to deflect criticism.
Microsoft Corp. is offering to modify the proposed settlement of private antitrust lawsuits to deflect criticism it would simply extend its software monopoly by donating reduced-priced software, computers and training to schools.
This concerns a private class-action suit which may or may not have merit, NOT the DOJ sellout. Pay attention people!
sulli
RTFJ.
1 thing i havent seen on this thread is what the teachers responses were to the MS settlement deal. Listening to Rush Limberger this morning, he said that the teachers said screw the computers, just give us the money. After watching the track record of these teachers over the last 30 years, my only answer to them is, Do you realy think we're going to trust you with all that money after the way you left our public schools systems in such shambles?
Where america used to be first in acedemia we are now 4th behind asian countries. I've watched PBS specials on how asian schools conduct themselves, it is allmost a throwback to american schools in the 30's and 40's. Teachers use corporal punishment, shame and guild trip techniques, get involved with parents and generally do all the things we americans tossed out of our schools years ago, mainly discepline.
I think computers are going to do more to hurt than help honestly. I remember working for the pleasonton union school district, it was a constant challenge to fend off the waves of would be script kiddies and hackers that habitate the k-12 system. The company I worked for was not cheap either, I was whored out at $150@hr to clean up these little "messes" that the kids made on the network.
Another thing scary about computers in schools is it will justify even less spending on academic supplies such as textbooks, pencils, papers. The teachers will spend less time teaching the children how to work through problems and school is going to become a very cold place with little to no interaction between student, teacher and parent.
MS should be forced to pay, but are k-12 really the right answer? How about donating a computer to every high school graduate? Instead of using them as a "learning tool" why not use them as an incentive to get kids to hit the books harder. Of course we could use china's techniques of public humiliation (read dunce cap) and caning to make kids focus. Being that we are america, we spend too much time worrying about these kids rights, fuck em I say, my tax dollars are paying for their education, not a good time.
There is a third option of course, this was really popular in the 80's and 90's. We could make MS buy massive quantities of ritilin for our kids and dispense it in their milk. Like bart simpson says, "No itchin or twitchin cause I take my ritlin". Being one of "those" kids who was called down to the nurses office to take that crap, nah too publicaly humiliating (other kids said we took crazy pills)
All jokes aside I think the best thing for MS to do is to buy up property and erect schools. Even if the Oakland school district got new computers, there is no data wiring, and I doubt the electrical is any good either. It's still going to be the same old drab emotionless schools that they are now. Space is what schools need more than anything. How many times have you driven past a school only to see 3 or 4 of those "temporary" trailers parked on the blacktop. Our school buildings have become the equivelent of trailer parks, our kids are the equivelent of trailer park trash. This is what needs to change, not @%#%@ more computers to take up %@#^%@ more space. Am I the only one that see's this or am I a crack smoking lemur?
--toq
isn't this just another attempt to stall this trial?
as long as the DOJ doesn't agree with microsoft's proposals, they can go on with their business as usual
He's using sarcasm to make a point. Quick, someone say he's flamebaiting!
Or perhaps he's flamebaitbaiting. Mark him as Offtopic.
Let's not stir that bag of worms...
MS is the easiest software to get if you really want it. Just do a search on Morpheus or KaZaA or Astalavist and you are set. You can get almost anything ever made by MS Incl. old Nostalgia items like Windows 2.0 etc.
I love /. moderators
go back to high school you fucking morons
oh, and first post
For the last time: THIS IS A SETTLEMENT. Microsoft did not "set the terms" of this. Like any settlement, both parties sat down and negotiated. Oy.
However, the last article on the M$ counter offer said that they would provide $1.2 billion of which $900 million of that would be Microsoft software products. That leaves $300 million for hardware which means that apparently Microsoft thinks it can best help the schools by charging 3 times what the hardware cost for their software (and coincidentally putting that $900 Million back into their own pockets)
If the average computer runs roughly $1200 for a hot shot system then it seems to me that the schools can buy a copy of Windows 98 or 2k and MS Office at the local software store for a LOT less than $3600.
The real reason for that counter offer is that it puts 3/4 of the settlement cash right back in Microsoft's pockets.
Give the money directly to the schools and let them decide. Apple, Linux, Even PC's with Windows is OK, but the schools should be making the decision, not Microsoft.
From the MSNBC story: Microsoft and most of the class action attorneys in the case are in favor of a deal that would require the company to spend more than $1 billion to put software and computers into some of the poorest U.S. schools.
Don't the lawyers get paid a percentage of the value of the settlement? The bigger the paper value of the settlement, the bigger their new boat... or am I just a cynic?
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
The proposed settlement actually doesn't make sense in any way.
If the schools wouldn't buy one billion's worth of ms products if they were given the corresponding money, then the value of the settlement is obviously less than one billion. Hence money is better.
Ms' argument is only valid if it didn't intend to actually give something worth a billion to the schools.
www.sguil.net
The Analyst Console for NSM
Everytime MS goes away to re-engineer the deal, they make the noose a little bit tighter. Am I the only person who finds the idea that a company being punished for anti-competative business practices and 'proposing' settlement alternatives somewhat ironic, idiotic, and likely suicide for those seeking a settlement in the long run? We're just giving them more and more time to turn this ship more and more in their direction.
I'm sure MS dollars exchanges very favourably for top notch negotiators who's sole jobs are to make sure MS comes out of this ahead of where they were before this all started.
"Old man yells at systemd"
(I know this message will probably be marked troll, but here goes)
...seems like same old Microsoft tricks.
Would you guys just grow up? Did it ever occure to you that it is the responsibility of every employee, executive, and board member of a company to do everything in their power (including 'old tricks') to try and beat out the competition? If they don't, they are committing a crime against their own company (and against the principles of capitalism for that matter).
_______
2B1ASK1
Seems like MS is trying to (after proposing an insulting 'punishment') look good by proposing 'better' alternatives to the settlement, but in fact they started with a ridiculous proposition, so when they finally agree, it'd still be good for them. I don't think there should be any settlement that could benefit MS in -any- way. to put it in Cpt. Picard's immortal words: "The line must be drawn here! this far! no further!"
"Luck is my middle name," said Rincewind, indistinctly. "Mind you, my first name is Bad." -- Terry Pratchett
I have no clue where you live, I would guess the US, but even then...in the states most schools use PC's, in canada the last time I saw a "non-ibm" computer was with our video toasting(tm) software for our amiga's. Regardless, all the schools I have been in here have been in here use PC's...well except when I was younger and used Icon's(tm). :)
A possible problem with the proliferation of MS software is the fact that in canada, the goverment has bailed out Corel so many damn times it's not funny, but corel give them huge breaks on the software wether it be schools or goverment. Which all run under windows 9x or higher.
Maybe goverment is part of the problem as well?
Om, nomnomnom...
Do they have closing anchor tags? Maybe you should dowload some.
I know its been said once, twice, 100 + times, but in all due respect for Education, its not the computers that make education good, and it is mostly teachers... but I think the MAIN factor is the kids. (and those who boss the poor teacherws around... but I'd consider them loud mouthed kids half of the time.)
Teachers aren't paid crap, and they teach because they really love to teach, but even the greatest teacher in the world won't do a grain of good if the students aren't movtivated enough to learn. Double edged sword. Good techer go to waste because of the bad students that waste their time. (I've been there and I've done that, i've been a good student AND a bad one)
So schools get win 95, on pI 166 machines. The outcome: Machines that are semi reliable for several years, cheap. If the schools anything like the one I went to, when it breaks they call in their better students and they fix it, everyones happy. And when the old 166 breaks, its broken. No *real* huge deal, 300 bucks to replace.
Now, all the computer companies want a piece of the education system. Why? Because the heads of education want to show off their buildings to the blue ribbon givers out there. So what do they do? They buy cheap equipment so they can say they have a lot of comptuers to use for education.
Maybe we should shoot those who lead the educators and let the teachers pick what the school system really needs, we may get somewhere then.
Don't get me wrong, I respect teachers dearly. They have had a big hand in making me who I am today... but I have a strong dislike for those who ruin those teachers I so admire... and it isn't what kind of computers the teachers and the students use. Microsoft is just using their brain to make more money in a greedy world. Congratulations, you found a weak point in the education system. Enjoy reaping your benefits, and don't let the door hit you on the way out.
-- RJ
Just wondering, does anyone know where /. denizens can go (web or email) to give input into why these "settlement" terms are so badly flawed?
It's one thing to complain about it and another thing to do something about it.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
$5 / month hosted VPS on linux = awesome!
You might not have thought of this, being a savvy internet user. But have you considered using a pen, paper, and an envelope?
I fear that the schools would get their hands on the hardware, basically say something along this lines of 'Omg, this is crap, I can't use this' (or the equivalent in schoolteacher / schoolkid language), and go and shell out the money for the equivalent Windows licences. Thus Microsoft not only gets to extend it's monopoly, but potentially millions of $ of school budget could be wasted (and at that: put into Microsoft's hands)
I know, this is slightly OT, but I feel I had to say it as many people were mentioning the Redhat proposal here.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
Bill Gates has chosen a punishment that satisfies the DOJ. We don't know what it is yet, but it might have something to do with those rumors of John Ashcroft shopping for soft cushions and comfortable chairs.
Imagine the pc world and the mac world finally being unified by an operating system? Connectix would finally have windows xp running flawlessly on a mac and developers would never have to make native ports of their games to the mac again. I can see why they would be important to this case. Microsoft could buy a ton of mac hardware with microsoft windows xp preinstalled and running perfectly on all of those macs. Microsoft Office, IE and media player would all work just fine. Besides would you really trust Apple to keep their operating system up to date when they want you to buy a new machine to use the latest? I'd say this is a good deal for consumers anyways.
Well, if we were to use pen, paper, and envelope, they probably wouldn't open it nowadays.
There's this thing called a war going on. One in which Anthrax is a fear, especially amongst the federal courts.
Now, a postcard might work - but again - do you have a name, address, zip and case number so people could send comments?
The reason I mentioned email or web is that those still work in the federal system nowadays.
-
--- Will in Seattle - What are you doing to fight the War?
"anthrax"
Maybe you should buff his pickle for an anchor tag.
I think Bill Gates & Co. should be tried in military tribunal.. that's the only way you can bring these guys to justice.
(thanks go to Bill C. from the lugwash list)
2 00 11207001012102
Send this to Judge Motz - Wired reports that he's only got 200 complaint letters so far.
U.S. District Judge J. Frederick Motz
Garmatz Federal Courthouse, Suite 4415
101 West Lombard St.
Baltimore, MD 21201
It is my belief that the proposed antitrust settlement with Microsoft
Corporation is not in the best interests of the American people. It
does not protect against future abuses and in fact encourages the
spread of the Microsoft software monopoly by training a vast army of
young people to use their operating system and attendant application
programs to the exclusion of very viable software alternatives.
America is based on freedom of choice; but students in Americas'
public schools can only learn to use computers, an essential skill
for the coming generation of employees, on the products provided to
them. Today, the Dept. of Justice has an opportunity to broaden the
scope of that choice and thus empower generations yet unborn. It also
has the opportunity to cave in to Bill Gates and thus must choose
between greatness and ignominy.
The Northern Territories school district in Australia, with a
population of just over 200,000, finds that it saved $1,000,000 in
the first year alone by using Linux alongside Microsoft products to
provide computer education at all grade levels. This was enough to
allow the school district to purchase an additional 1,000 computers
for distribution in the schools and as loaner units for students (and
their parents) to use at home. In a few short years their children
will be competing, very effectively, on the worldwide intellectual
marketplace against American children whose access to hardware was
hampered by the prohibitive cost imposed by the practice of using
Microsoft products all but exclusively in the public schools. The
Australian experience could have been dramatically more productive
had they used Linux as the operating system on all their computers
but it was a good initial step. The present savings represent its use
in their servers only.
http://opensourceschools.org/article.php?story=
I support the notion that Microsoft should pay its fine in hardware
donations only. It has been brought to my attention that Red Hat
Software of Research Triangle Park, NC, (near Durham, NC) has offered
to provide pro-bono copies of the Linux operating system
corresponding to a Microsoft donation of hardware. It is my desire
that any donation of software that Microsoft might choose to make
would not be included in the proposed settlement but must also be a
pro-bono gesture corresponding to the Red Hat Software offer.
Moreover, any copies of software Microsoft might donate should
require no payment of any sort by the schools at any forward point in
time. It must be a true donation of indefinite duration, just as the
Red Hat offer is. Otherwise, if required to pay, the schools would
eventually have to abandon their training programs for lack of funds
to re-license / upgrade their software.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/011120/202744_1.html
While Microsoft Corporation should not be excluded from expressing
generosity, such generosity, expressed as software gifts, only
furthers their ability to monopolize the marketplace and should not
be permitted as a part of the penalty for having followed illegal
practices in the establishment of their dominance in the software
market.
Microsoft has painted itself the champion of choice and freewill
while villifying open-source software as being un-American. I think
it is time for their actions, public and private, to match their very
public words.
Software donations should be no part of the proposed settlement.
- passion
Isn't it absurd that Microsoft is setting there own punishment? They BROKE THE LAW. This is like a criminal setting his own punishment. The whole thing is absurd..
that means she gets less than five CENTS an hour to teach a child. [per child of course]
Even with overcrowded classrooms, that would work out to at most $2 an hour, which can't be accurate. Your earlier $1 per child per day figure would work out to (using the most unrealistic timesheets) no more than $6 an hour, again not accurate. I worry that people will pay too much attention to your clearly invalid numbers and ignore your (quite correct) points.
My father teaches high school in one of the most underfunded states in the union... with years of experience, he makes over $30K a year before taxes, or around $15 an hour. It's not babysitter wages, but it's still quite a small amount if you expect to be able to hire people more competent than babysitters. It's less than he made in either of his two previous careers (not even considering inflation), and it's half of what many of my friends make straight out of college. Every teacher working in America's public schools is doing so either because they gave up much more lucrative job opportunities out of some sense of altruism or because they really can't find a better job. I'm cynical enough to be surprised that the first group isn't extremely rare, but the second group is still adequately represented.
I agree that teachers are underpaid, but it's important to understand why: the reason isn't some abstract ideal of fairness.
Ideally, we'd be paying teachers enough to make it a financially competitive job, and using the influx of new applicants to actually fire the least competent current teachers regularly. Isn't that what you do when hiring for any other job, make sure you're paying enough to have a full applicant pool to choose from? The current methods for avoiding incompetent teachers generally involve making them jump through years of easy "how to teach" classes and certification hoops, and I suspect for every illiterate they weed out there's at least one scientist they scare off.
This is just going to keep on going unless it is decided that someone besides Microsoft is to design and offer a settlement. Otherwise, Microsoft will continue to give us offer after offer of tricky, deceitful settlements until we all get tired and give in.
"Pickle" is a metaphor here, right?
Netscape's product was 2nd rate therefore its ok that IE was a slightly better piece of crap? Sorry, no. And, Netscapes product was fine until they tried to play the 'lock-in' feature game with MS and ended up losing the game and delivering a crappy product too. MS and Netscape are both to blame for the reason that my browser is still junk, even to this day. I use IE, btw and its crap. Its slow, it generates countless runtime errors. (Do you want to debug? F--- no, I don't. Stop asking!) It renders incorrectly. It crashes the OS. Its junk.
MS may not be the only guilty party but they are far from innocent. This is how they have harmed consumers.
You know, I know, the Justice department knows they raped us all. They stabbed people in the back and took and took and took. They killed everybody but the one enemy that doesn't care about money. They took down down every corporate entity that challenged them, but they couldn't destroy a community. Now that they've killed WordPerfect and nuked Netscape they only fear Linux. They only fear the Free Software that WE biuld. It grows stronger everyday. And as it does it draws more people. They will need to take our basic freedoms from us to stop it, and they will try. But eventually it won't be stoppable, the community will one day present to the world a distribution that will blow MS out of the water and leave them behind. And when it does it will be over.
Until that day comes though if you must use Windows, well then return the favor, rape them right back. Burn a copy for your Family for your freinds, leave a spindle of pirated CD's on every street corner in your city or town(Right next to a 2 spindles of your favorite Open Source distribution if you please).
MS, RIAA, MPAA, all of them are on the run. They are starting to realize what the future looks like. They are starting to realize that we don't need them anymore. Any of them. We aren't what we used to be. We are the NETWORK. We are the power of many. If one out of 1000, out of 10,000 do any of this then the world will change around you. I come here and I see people bicker and complain, but we are stronger than we have ever been in the history of our species. Each of us with a supercomputer right in front of us. Its time to drop the banter and take action.
PS. Follow the DoJ links from Friday and let the Gov. know where Bill can shove it.
I don't understand the hype behind all these Microsoft settlement proposals. They're doing the proposal. They're still inflicting their own punishment in a way that suits them, exclusively. Not only does a third party have to get in and influence the settlement agreements (which we're seeing in this case), but they have to write the proposal. Microsoft is saying, "Hey Dad, why don't you ground me? Oh, and let me leave the room to go to school and do my errands; oh, and play with my friends. OK, I don't have to play with my friends ALL the time. And I don't have to leave my room at night."
I am not sure that I really agree with the lawsuit, but I did laugh when the M$ lawers said that providing M$ software instead of money would provide them more bang for their buck. The truth of the matter is that M$ sells software to the schools and instructors for pennys on the dollar. In fact this is one reason that I find this lawsuit bogus, because there are numerous companies that will sell software to schools and teachers for pennies on the dollar as a marketing stratagie.
I am an avid Linux user and don't like big corporations, but how can M$ for marketing their product in a market that they esentially developed. It appears to me that they are just making their os easier to use no different than AOL is tring to make the use of their Internet service easier for the novice to use.
If Apple holds half the market for school computers wouldn't it only make sense to put Apple in a key role? Say, on the committy, with as much voting power as MS... I bet that would help ensure the money got spent in a fair way. I'd bet Apple would be willing offer their computers and software at a greatly discounnted rate if MS was floating the bill.
OR... does Microsoft simply want to put Connetix virtual PC on the Apple computers the schools do have... you know "upgrading" them to act as a PC, because we all know OS X is UNIX based & bad for the childeren.
Is it just me? Does it seem like every time Microsoft makes an attempt to satisfy complaints... it only makes things bend more in their favor?
what if I'm specifically buying a machine to run linux? The MS monopoly is screwing me over in this case.. because I *can't* avoid giving them my money, even if I don't want it.
THAT is the problem.
There was a deadline of last Friday to submit comments. Perhaps the Judge will request additional comments later in the case. Many of the public comments submitted thus far can be found here: http://www.mdd.uscourts.gov/Opinions152/Microsoft_ lidigation/MicrosoftLitigation.htm
Other comments, including those by Apple and Red Hat, plus related material can be found here: http://www.applecon.com/ms%20settlement.htm
That site was prepared by Jeffrey Mackie-Mason, an economist who is a consulting forCalifornia class action plainiffs. It seems like it would be a good place to keep checking to see if there's another round of comments requested.
Despite the justifications that your CEO gives you for using dangerous levels of petrochemicals in thier baby-food to "save costs", there is a such thing as business ethics. A company that breaks the law ("Hey, let's just burn down the warehouses of our competition and poison thier employees; We'll be the only game in town!" "Great strategizing Bob, get on that! Top priority!") is NOt helping thier company OR capatalism.
"Your superior intellect is no match for our puny weapons!"
Unfortunately, it would be via a crappy-ass operating system. I'm not saying OS X is particularly better than XP, mind you, just that the entire market is stagnating horribly, and such a move would ultimately be detremental.
Vigorous competition between many small companies is a better way to go. Would we even have Windows if not for all of the other companies that brought out GUIs first? MS is proving to be pretty lousy w/o someone to emulate.
-- This and all my posts are in the public domain. I am a lawyer. I am not your lawyer, and this is not legal advice.
I'm sick of the stuff I hear about this settlement. I've come to the conclusion that neither the civil nor federal cases are going to really do anyhting to curtail MS in any way. I say ditch any settlements and go the long road in the court case.
The best thing to come out of the DOJ case thus far is a showing to the general public of MS's "evil" business practices which has really fueled the demonizing of Microsoft. It was the demonizing of IBM in their 13 year anti-trust case that led to the growth of IBM and Microsoft as people thwarted IBM's "control".
The IBM anti-trust case really didn't do anything either, but indirectly it was very effective.
Run the cases all the way through -- I don't care how long it takes. As long as MS continues to get demonized it will suffer the same fate as IBM which seems to be the only effective solution when tecnology is involved because the lawers and judges are so damned technically illiterate.
To quote Steve Wozniak:
"Part of Gates' personality is to never, ever give up an inch of ground. But I think what they're scared of now is that they've now been categorized as evil. Everybody knew that in the industry anyway. Where it's going to hurt them is recruiting. The key to all these companies is what kind of talent they can recruit for the next generation of products. Do you really want to go work for the Evil Empire?"
That's what made apple and MS. No one wanted to work for nor buy IBM any more. OS/2 was a far superior product for a much more reliable company then MS with Windows, but companies did not want any more of IBM's control because IBM marketed it as a "whole solution" integrated with thier mainframes much like MS now markets WIndows as a "whole" solution integrated with their servers, office, ie, and soon web services.
Good Night.
I think the best solution would be a Kevin Mitnick-style one where the money MSFT donates can be spent on anything *but* computers. They can buy art supplies, new gym equipment, renovate the cafeteria, but computers will have to come out of the normal budget. After all, if the courts can slap restraining orders of this sort on private individuals, why not on companies?
A settelment is when two sides agree on something. If microsoft dosn't have a say, then it isn't a settlement.....
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Considering this article thinks that Office doesn't already exist on Macintosh, makes you wonder what else isn't accurate.
Maybe I missed something, but has the DOJ overturned the Judge Jackson's ruling that Microsoft abused their monopoly? No?
Then will somebody please explain how any other antitrust crimes in the last decade could possibly result in jail time for execs when this one didn't???
I know this is supposed to be a discussion of a civil suit, but Gates and Balmer should be getting quoted from a federal prison...
Turambar
------------------------------
Common sense is not so common.
--Voltaire
Oh please!
If I am a corporate executive and I run over my competitor's CEO with a steamroller for the good of my company so we can grow, would that not be a crime?
According to the interpretation of the courts, corporations exist to provide services and goods to the public. Thats it. Not to fuck consumers and other companies up the ass but to provide consumers services and goods. Oh and I suppose create jobs and wealth as a side bonus.
I view Microsoft's acts not as simple dirty old tricks or clever bussiness plans but as acts of corporate sabatage. The purposes of their deeds in %90 of their actions were to harm competitors. Not to create better products. Everything from cuting off competing os's at the distribution level (OEM's), to threatening OEM's to only include office, to even stealing code. Yes the Windows Media player has apple code from Quicktime in it. Apple sued Microsoft and after years in court you want to know what happened? Microsoft aggreed to pay the damages to apple but only in the form of a stock buy out plan. The conditions were the following, halt the win32 port of clarisworks(now appleworks) and halting the creatation of digital creation tools on the win32 platform, and also to include IE on every mac! Microsoft actually benifeted from stealing their code! Microsoft can afford to stay in court for years but Apple could not at the time. This is just one example out of many. All there deeds are to cut off anyone and anybody who dares to get in there way. I am getting really sick of hearing about them. How is company A, taking away goods from the market so they can raise prices and limit the supply benefit the public? I am not a real Microsoft hater but I am just telling you the truth about some of there actions.
I remember reading an interview for Linux Magazine with java and BSD inventer Bill Joy. Bill Joy mentioned that he was disturbed about a comment made by Steve Balmer. Balmer said innovation was good and ok but marketshare is by far more important. Steve Balmer went on to say that he has to gain marketshare at any cost. Marketshare pretty much was Microsofts only goal and perhaps some innovation but not at the expense of marketshare of course. Bill Joy believes in innovation over marketshare in the long run for loyal consumers. I admit Microsoft and IBM screwed Sun out of the micro computer market so he would be extremely biased but he does have a point. 30 years from now, who will cs students have more respect for? Bill Joy or Bill Gates. I believe the former.
http://saveie6.com/
According to the article linked in the main story:)
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Does the American tax code really allow corporations to deduct money paid as a result of legal judgments?
Man. I can see it now. Government fines company $500 million, company gets a $500 million deduction on its taxes. Where's the effectiveness in that?
my old sig used to be funny, but then slashcode ate it and now it's not funny anymore
Instead of the 1B$, use 10% of thier 'value' (3.6B$, IIRC) and have them:
A) Buy all Sun servers
B) Use BSD *only* on said hardware
C) Force *all* top level execs to be the ones to install and support A&B.
(This is where the devil is in the details, I've tried to install BSD on an ultra 10...hehehehe, won't happen in my life time.)
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
they know Office runs on Mac, but the agreement between Microsoft and Apple runs out in August. the Senate wants Microsoft to extend the agreeement so that Office will continue to run on Macs(past, present AND future)
the history of the world
A particularly good paragraph, that sums up the problems:
There is more to business than doing everything in your power to beat out the competition. As a business your responsibility is to make an improvement in the lives of your owners, employees, and clients. If you fail in any one of these items your company is a useless waste of space and is better disbanded.
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