Slashdot Mirror
Abiword: Support Expectations
bockman
writes "Abiword developers have put up a
letter,
explaining what they expect from their user community and what the
community should (and should not) expect from a volunteer-based open
source software project like theirs. A much needed reality-check in
these times when a large number of non-developers have joined the
Linux users world." This is a must read for anyone who uses any
open source software.
If I were Microsoft, I'd link to this letter without comment. As a business user, I'd be sore pressed to consider anything but Commercial software after reading this.
Hmmm, while i read the story and after i looked at the screenshots the Abiword site seems to be down....i was going to try if it would run on my OpenBSD box, but nevertheless maybe slashdot should mirror text only things to decrease load on other people's webservers ?
Quazion.
Please oh please update the webpage and test rpm builds.
If a person were to want to get abiword and downloaded their redhat 7.1 rpm, they'd be instantly ranting on the mailing list as it does not work for any possible install of redhat 7.1.
In fact they need to remove all rpms except for the gtk version as that is the only rpm that actually works.
also, add a list of all libs that are needed in order to use the product.
I am glad they make abiword, but having rpm's or packages that dont work for anyone except the deveopler that made it causes most of the grief I see on the mailing list. 90% of all pissed users are users that cant get it to work because of the bad rpm's and packages.
hey, if you guys dont have time for keeping the website up-to date, I volunteer to do it.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
Part of the reason many professional groups are unwilling to use open-source programs is because they just don't know what they're getting. If I, as a business owner am told that the product will be supported by a group of volunteers, I may be willing to go spend $100 for a product that will be supported. But, *ahem*, many pay software companies expire out their old versions so you're stuck with the product at some point anyway.
This is document was very well laid out, and might help to increase the popularity of open source stuff. Sure most of us just know how it all works, but unless Joe Public does, he won't see any reason to consider OSS. Probably the best line of this notice would be "We believe, however, that it's only because most newcomers do not realize what to expect - hopefully this text will set that right." Amen to that. Even if I had never used OSS before, I might be willing to give it a shot after all this has been laid out.
The text also does a very nice job dispelling the common myth held by regular software users that OSS requires you to be actively involved in the programming to use it. A very welcoming sense of "everybody can join, if you can, please help out in one of several ways."
If nothing else, this type of text should cut down on the number of bitch-outs directed towards OSS due to false expectations.
don't go flaming the programmers, FIX IT! the source is all there ready to be tweaked. You got what you paid for, and that's nothing.. The good part is with a MINOR amount of tweaking, fiddling, etc. (compared to writing something like AmiWord yourself) you can have a FANTASTIC word processor for FREE! Behold the wonders of open-source.
Then you can post your fixed version and get flamed too..
joy
I do pity the open developer community if linux really takes off on the user side of this game.
Cheers,
-- RLJ
"As AbiWord evolves, it becomes a serious alternative to commercial products for more and more people..."
"As AbiWord is getting more powerful and usable, we attract more and more users who expect the same feature set and product polish as they'll find in a commercial product such as Microsoft Word. Which is, in a simple word, absurd."
So AbiWord is becoming a serious alternative to commercial products, but doesn't have the same functionality as a commercial product?!?
Don't mislead the newbies, and you won't have upset newbies. Good motto to live by.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Still, it's also easy to see why users have expectations. After all, they've been told by journalists that Linux is Ready For The Desktop. They've read spewing by zealots about how fantastically superior Linux applications are and how there's limitless free, quick support available from The Community. They've read the stuff on the Red Hat or Mandrake box and spent money for it. They've invested time in installing Linux and in creating work on it. I can understand why they're annoyed to be told, "It's free and it's my spare-time hobby so deal with it."
I accept that dealing with a desktop Linux installation is a hobby in its own right and that you have to spend time to make it work and deal with some things that justa aren't there. But it's easy to see why a lot of users don't realize that.
Then there are the free software whackos who think that they're owed the world on a silver platter. But that's a whole other issue...
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I think the AbiWord people are in a bind trying to catch up with something as complex (you can read that as crappy) as Word. That's a tough task for such a small group, and it's a thankless task (as their letter indicates has been the case) because you end up with luser unhappiness.
On the other hand, OpenOffice seems to do a much better job with the Word documents (limited set, mind) that I've worked with. That's probably the result of the corporate heritage of Star/OpenOffice which meant that, for some time, serious resources were thrown at the problem, and someone dug in and did the crap work required.
In short - AbiWord is getting crap because they bit off more than they can true, on a product whose user base tends to be whiny. They certainly have my condolences.
In my experience, there is a significant number of users that expect open source software developers to provide free product support. Product support is something from the commerical world. You paid for the software, so you are entitled to get help making it work for you. But open source software does not work that way. The users are expected to make an effort to read the documentation, to try to solve their own problems, and whenever possible, provide patches to fix bugs. You are not paying for the software with your money, so you, as a user, are not entitled to free support, or even software that works right. But when the software is good, and you make an effort to read documentation and solve your own problems, you will be rewarded with the knowledge and experience to solve your own problems again in the future.
I can't say I got that from the letter, but it is nice to see developers standing up from themselves. Especially in this day of "Free Software can compete with Pay software" it's great seeing someone telling it like it is. My favourite sentement:
The problem here is expecting too much all the time. Many of the more visible free software projects have made huge leaps in the past, and to many users that then makes them expect that sort of delivery to be the norm. If you deliver the best most of the time, it's expected all of the time. And as a developer, I'm flattered that users belive in a product and like it so much that the want to be able use it better. But as much as we love code, we also love just relaxing after work sometimes. The Abiword dev's want the software to get as good as it can be, but they also need to have time to work at their day jobs, cut the grass and walk the dog.
Perhaps in the future people will start paying for "free" software. That day, my friends, will be a glorious day.
Hilary Rosen's speech was about her love of money and her desire to roll around naked in a pile of money.
I agree with you, if you don't like something then fix it yourself. After all this is open source. But I think the point he was trying to make is that most people don't want to be bothered with source code they just want a program to work. If you want your product to reach a wide group of people then you have to fix these "little things" that most slashdot users don't mind doing themselves. Joe sixpack just wants to install a program and run it. If he can't do that then he'll use something else. This is one of the downfalls of some open source projects.
Snoozer.
These guys make a great product, and put it out for free (beer and speech). They work hard for no money, and this letter is right on the money. If I don't pay for something, I'm not gonna expect tech support, or changes on my schedule. No one else should, either. It's like someone cooking up a meal for you, and serving it for free, and you picking it apart. This ain't Burger King, baby. If you want to have it your way, you need to help out and be patient. Hurray for Abisource making sure that people know where they stand
Damnit, Jim, I'm an anarchist, not a F@#$!^& doctor!
....you get what you pay for.
Guess what, the general public doesn't want excuses. Corporate IT folks dont want excuses.
They just want to get their work done.
The general public simply does not care that a small group of developers spends an amazing amount of time developing Abiword.
They just want it to work, and they want to call someone when it breaks. They want some hope that someone will fix it or can tell them how to fix it, or more likely, how to do the same thing in a slightly different way.
If Linux wants to be on alot of desktops then this type of memo isn't going to get it too far.
I'm still working on a clever footer.
For some reason they have concerns about reliability. They'd rather pay $30K per CPU for BEA WebLogic then download JBoss for nothing, even if they only plan on supporting 100 users. I don't claim to understand it myself, but in corporate circles open source software has this stigma attached to it.
You're pretty much right.
...
OTOH, it would be appropriate to replace non-working rpm's with a tarball. And a list of dependancies would certainly be a real useful feature.
That said, I haven't checked. Perhaps they do have a tarball. Perhaps the comment about non-working rpm's was an overstatemtent. And maybe it works on most people's systems (though in that case one wouldn't expect it to cause a full mailing list).
.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
OK, lets try this again, I crashed out of my 1st post.
I also see why the people that make Abiword are trying to make popele understand that it is not a finished product yet.
I do not agree with them saiying that it will never be as polished of a product as word.. Word is by far a bug free product.. With Abiword what I would do if I were on the project is make what works and what people use work VERY well and take out the features that are not used..
MSword is full of blaot, espically the newest versions. Don't let Abiword get that way, keep it a small, fast, MSword compatable word processor, not a CLOAN. When one thing works perfectly get then slowly add more features as people request them. Ket it as low on bugs as possable and Show MS that a program can be made with out bugs all over the place.
But what ever you do, don't give up to MS and say there will alwyas be better or you just as well stop now..
Java is the way to go for ABIword - less bug.
Life is full of trade-offs. If you want to use free software because of all its plusses - robustness, freedom to hack it, lack of money, whatever - you might have to put up with some pain like building from source. (Although it could be argued that with a complete set of development tools that every free operating system - all the Linux distributions, all the BSDs - comes with, building from source is no pain at all.)
Too often we forget that being in the free software world, whether as a user or a developer, involves a slightly different set of rules from the Micros**t world.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
I wish more Open Source projects would do this.
I mean it is great that Open Source projects exist, and they really help out a lot of people but it is important that those who are benefited reciprocate.
It is really a tragedy of the commons.
With successful Open Source projects like Linux, you have TONS of companies which base billions of dollars of business on these products.
Yet at the same time the Engineers have NO way of making money just by writing code.
The only way they can pay the bills is by joining a larger company like IBM that can act as a patron so that they can continue their work.
There are many examples of this:
- Linus works for Transmeta
- Alan Cox works for RedHat
... etc
What we really need to see happen is the users directly supporting the developers of these products.
Instead of downloading AbiWord for free. Why not donate $2-$5 through PayPal.
This would provide the ability for a few developers to work FULL TIME on AbiWord (or whatever) without having to worry about corporate bias.
They would be directly working for the client instead of for an intermediary (like IBM or Transmeta).
Freenet is doing this
I just wish it would catch on...
If it's open source then you can only "expect" your users to follow the license. Of course the Abi guys haven't put up a list of demands for there community, they have put up some guild lines for there project. Wouldn't have made a slashdot items out of it, but I like to see Abi getting lots of press.
M0571y H@rml355.
Perhaps you know a person named Abiword. If so I can understand your confusion!
I don't believe this for a second. Word is complex, but I've looked at the Microsoft Word 97 Binary File Format spec (and spent a good week starting to write my own parser) and I don't see the big deal. This stuff is not that hard. Parsing it is actually pretty easy (yes Werner, you were right, a yacc parser is useless). The hard part has nothing to do with Word. These guys are trying to write a word processor which is more about rendering and efficient editing than how it serializes it's state. But there going about it in completely the wrong way. The're trying to build a word processor around the Word format. Separate your peas and carrots guys. Don't limit your exectations to the abilities of Word. These guys should be exploring the proven priciples behind rendering and editors, find a good data structure to represent a document and then deserialize and serialize documents to and from that data structure (a tree) into whatever format you want include .doc, .ps, .html, ....
It's not that you get what you pay for. That's a lie told us by those selling the more expensive products. It isn't (necessarily) true in general, and more often not in free software.
It's that if you -do- get what you pay for, you can't complain.
AbiWord is much more useful than it's cost, but some people take that to mean they can just then start making demands. And people also don't know how to ask for the support that _is_ readily available.
And seriously, who the hell are these people calling when their software breaks? I've never even heard of someone having Word break and then picking up the phone to dial Microsoft. And if they did and started being beligerent to the person on the line, how much help do you think they'd get?
Reading this memo as an excuse of any kind is just wrong, because you don't need an "excuse" to not be able to hand the world to people who are irrationaly demanding it of you.
The enemies of Democracy are
This is absolutely true. KOffice and Open/StarOffice are far superior and further along. My preference for word processors and MS Word compatible documents is OpenOffice. It works very well (though not always perfectly) with embedded graphics and foreign imports.
However, doesn't this beg the question for Abiword: why bother? Why bother getting involved in a project that is so far behind other more promising projects? This is often the case in OpenSource land - too many projects with near 100% functional overlap.
Oh well...
I use Abiword the way I used to use Wordpad in Windows. The feature set is somewhere between Wordpad and Word and it loads up about as fast as Wordpad did. It works well enough for viewing most docs and knocking out quick little letters and so forth. I have Star and OpenOffice laying around if I have to work with something a little more complex but I don't bother with them that much. There is room for a solid lightweight wordprocessor like Abiword.
But, by definition, if you're using a Word-compatible word processor, you need enough compatibility to exchange Word documents with Windows/MS-Office users without stripping out 99% of the existing formatting.
If you want a GOOD word processor - by all means, avoid cloneing Word. But if you want a word processor that works with Word documents, you're playing a different game. If you can't offer a certain degree of compatibility with Word, you might as well not even try.
As far as Word being buggy bloatware - I agree absolutely. I just want to be able to modify and exchange Word documents created by coworkers without having to run Windows and MS-Office.
How is it "doomed"? Is the mighty fist of corporate America going to come smashing down on them and say, "hahah! you're so far behind us! you can no longer make your hobby word processor!" at which the developers will turn their tails and leave? So what if StarOffice is further along; big deal. Not as many people use the product. Big deal. They're not generating revenue. A large user base, outside of debugging and commentry, is NOT an integral part of the development process.
when salmon are outlawed, only outlaws will have salmon
you obviously ar no open-source developer... I don't think their aim is to wipe StarOffice or MS-Office off the market: their aim is to have fun developing a product some people like and thank them for. It's a HOBBY, so what's the real problem lagging behind, as long as people need a lean yet effective word processor? I do not see any reason why I would want to use something else than AbiWord for home use for that matter. And I only use MS Word at work to reproduce customer environments...
Open-Source is not the hype. It's a bunch of people having fun and doing great things for it. MS is rich. Sun is rich. they are by definition broke.
Perhaps the Open Source community needs to impliment some sort of support system to better sort out issues.
When you call tech support for most commercial products, you get a dingbat on the other end who knows little more than a person who has already read the manual. If this person has no clue about what your problem is, they can escalate your issue to someone more educated in the matter. Has there ever been an email based support system set up to handle something like this? I.E.- an email sent to support@yourproject.org posts a message to a password protected board subscribed to by x number of support volunteers who provide basic support. These volunteers could escalate said issue to a higher authority, yet another board subscribed to by people who have fielded x number of previous questions, or whatever method you would use to define an advanced support person, or answer the issue on thier own. The advanced board could have subsets, say a group who can deal with RPM issues or something. For example, I don't know dick about solving RPM problems, but if someone was having dependency issues or whatever on a RedHat system, I could forward it to the RedHat users board.
It seems to me that almost any answer regarding most problems with large scale Open Source software can be found if you know where to look. Therein lies the problem. Most newbies / regular users have no clue where to look. Is this whole idea a pipe dream?
If it ain't a Model M, it's a piece of crap.
Demanding features is certainly acceptable for customer when talking to a business (perhaps it's not polite - but some customers can be rude and yet the business will still smile back as its in their best interests). Open source is distinct. If you're rude to open source developers they'll tell you to go to hell (or, as the case of the smoothwall developer, he'll tell you to go to hell regardless ;). Clarifying to users that their role in Abiword is one of friendly participation, urging and contribution - is what the article steps around.
Users need to understand that open source is like a bunch of friends (oh the trolls will have a field day with that) and that demands don't go down well.
Everything they say in the memo seems reasonable enough, but they could have focussed a bit more on how much support you can get from the user community if you ask nicely. In most cases, I've found that the "community" provides support comparable to, and sometimes superior to, the support that I get for commercial products.
When I first began installing and using open-source software, for the first time, I was shocked by the high quality of the support that I received from both developers and other users.
The first "real work" I ever did using Linux was replacing an old MS Exchange 5.0 server with QMail. (yes, I know about the debates about Qmail's license or lack thereof, but that's not the point here) Not really understanding what I was doing, I posted some (in retrospect) truly silly questions to some of the qmail mailing lists. I remember one particular email that abused me for being ignorant and asking a question in the wrong mailing list (I didn't realize it at the time, but it was more of a general Linux question than a qmail question), and then continued to very clearly and concisely explain my error and point me in the right direction. Compare that to a similar situation with a commercial vendor, where the response would likely have been something along the lines of "the problem you are describing is caused by some other piece of software and we cannot help you."
In truth, I don't find the support process to be that different for Microsoft and Linux. If I have a problem with a Microsoft product, I search the Microsoft knowledge base, do a google search (including Usenet), and maybe post a question to the appropriate newsgroup. If I have a problem with a Linux or open source program, I search the LDP, do a google search (including Usenet) and maybe post a question to the appropriate newsgroup. The process is almost identical, and the results are pretty darn similar. If I want more hands on support, I have to pay a vendor (MS, Redhat, VA, etc.)
** The opinions expressed here are my own, and do not reflect those of my employers - past, present, or future**
which I process as an advisor for some companies of the
fortune 500, and I think that I can bury few light on the climate of
the opened source community at the moment. I believe that this section of the reason, which opened source created, links to starts
leaving is and an output of marketing is not quite, since it is
believed generally however more to an output of the underlying technology.
know I that the one strong to screen end predicate is, but I
have the proof for above supporting it! With one this
Hauptcorps(5000+ Angestellten) advise I for, we wanted Linux into our user pool to integrate. The airs the Muessens all restrictive
royalties do not pay was excessively to be ignored. I reccomended the
installation of some boxes, which let the new core 2.4.9 run, and my
hopes were highly that he would execute Windows 2k up to the Snuff
with the boxes, were(and still! are), completing an AMAZING work on
its respective functions of the casing HTTP requests, DNS and the
Fileservings.
regard me I, technically bent to be very much programming in
VB for the last 8 years the horizontally aligned programming of the
core doing. I do not believe in programming C, because opposite can
go to the popular faith, VB even as low level, while C and the newest
VB compiler produce code, which is each point as fast. I took it
after me, in order to assemble and smooth the system of the scratch
used an optimized version of GCC 3.1, in order to increase the
execution rate that binaries. I integrated the 3 machines, which I
had assembled into the user pool, and I would have to say the results
was fewer than impressive..., We, whom all that linux not near to its
ready for the desk even it is but I know, had heard that it should
execute decently, while a " user " operating system based. All 3
machines entered in exchanges immediately, and it was obvious that it
not in the BegriffWAREN to touch in the position zuSEIN, the load in
this " enterprise " climate. After they had long run fewer than 24
hours, 2 had transferred caused experienced core by them in panic, by
them linkage and Apacheabbrachen! Granted, Apache is a voluntary
created project, which is written to weekend hacker into its back-up
time, while IIS Microsfts has an actual professional full fledged the
development crew, which is dedicated to him. the fact that the core
Linux lacks each possible support for any type tapped file system,
memory protection, SMP support, etc., but me not for mentioning
thought that, since Linux is based on such " old " technology, which
would let it run with any level of stability. After some days of this
type of the behavior, we decided, to install window 2k on the boxes again to go in order to check that it was not a small article problem,
which started things, falsely. The machines, those were formed above
immediately and were reintegrated seamlessly into the user pool also
even of a Win2K-Maschine, which completes more work than all 3 the
boxes Linux.
to say unnecessarily, reccomending I not Linux/FSF to more my
clients. I am dissappointed that not to the leverege free costs of
Linux for her advantage in the LageSIND, but in this case I take her
the old for applicable proverb pending workstations that, " you
receive, which you pay ", I would have also acces to the source
program of applications to have liked, we let which run on our
critical systems of the mission; however of views of it, " divided
source " of the Microsofts program seems, everything of the same
freedoms as GPL. -
to offer, while things are now, I can with Linux in the
academy understand to compile simple " hello world " of type programs
and learn c-programming, but I have fear that for all more than a
hobby OS, Windows 98/NT/2K are their only elections.
thank you.
I will start out by saying that I do not use Abi Word, nor do I plan on using it anytime soon. Being a developer myself, I actually agree with the Abi development team, but by hyping up the project, users get the wrong idea.
The first thing that caught my eye when I went to the site was the phrase "Word processing for everyone". With a catch-phrase like that, you had better be able to deliver on your promise. "Everyone" includes those rushed business execs who are too busy to become computer literate and need support *now*.
Maybe Abi should either drop the slogan, or deliver on it, before they give too many people the worng idea.
...more of an issue of the underlying technology.
The x86 instruction set, the BIOS, what?
programmed in VB for the last 8 years doing kernel level programming
As if.
There's an interesting article over here that shows what happens with a lack of support...
To each their own. At work, we run several key services on Linux boxes, due in part to the lack of security we've experienced in MS products in the past. However, our IT guys seem to have far more problems with keeping the Linux boxes up and running on a day to day basis. In terms of time spent supporting a product -- which is far more of the cost than the initial purchase -- Linux is lagging waaaaay behind Windows-based systems at our place. We use it for the security, not the cost.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Slashdot is now perpetrating THE LIE OF THE CENTURY!
You have been warned.
All this is very interesting, but let's answer the question potential users are REALLY asking - is there a dancing paper clip to help me through my troubles?
Just mention "java" on Slashdot and get modded up.
Writing ABIword in java is ridiculous. Look at what happened to Corel's Java WordPerfect effort - a complete disaster.
when will people learn code to help these developers instead of being a pain in one's butt
I do think abiword sucks, but then so does MS office. Koffice and Staroffice kick both their asses! But I only write simple documents so I only need a simple editor. Windows users, its time to drag notepad.exe to the recycle bin (or vi(m) to dev/null if your a linux user).
I am downloading the .96 relese right now it gests better and better with every realse as far as the minor buggs go and meets most all my needs already. They have as much as said in the past that they re developing simple wordproc for the masses which will never include all the cray featurs in Word that nobody, yes nobody knows how to use. If you already have MS word and are using windows dont swich but if your trying to justify investing ridiculos sums of money in Office to get word you really should give abiword a chance as if you don't have office already most likely you really dont need it. But if some feature you need is not there plesently post in on bugzilla and remember just ecactly how much you paid to use abiword. Great work to all who are developers on the project this is the best pice of Free wordproc software around and a runner up for best wordproc in general. Keep up the good work lots of us users are very happy with it! I just want to say THANKS on behalf of all us users.
A lot of people don't have a clue what goes into a commercial software project. For example, Red Hat has only about 600 people. That is spread out through management, sales, marketing and support, as well as development. Now, Red Hat developers may be more productive than volunteers, since they are able to work on projects full time, but the vast majority of the work that goes into a new release of Red Hat Linux is in software written by the community.
.com era. They are not missed, either by OSS or Free software developers, or by profitable companies.
Microsoft's practices are harder to determine for an outsider, but they don't put in the huge amount of effort that the Abiword people think. For example, the Internet Explorer team is much smaller than the number of people working on Mozilla (in fact, it is smaller than the team working on Mozilla/ Netscape full time). The MS Word team is probably larger than the Abiword team, and support comes from a different group of people. However, if you email them and say, "Get this feature by tomorrow or I'm switching to something else!" they will have the exact same response as Abiword.
The days of 200 people working on a shell script to change directories using a web page went away with the end of the
Even Slashdot wants to hide some things
at 3 AM at Perkins or Dennys... I'd be rich.
This is THE major problem with Open Source software. Since you can't make money with it, you can't commit yourself to it full time. Therefore you get a whole bunch of people who sorta work on it rather than a real programming team.
What does this get you? Products like Abiword that, while nice, admit publically that they can't compete.
What you linux kids need is a micropayment system or SOME kind of way to support your "Forget capitalism, I must give away the product of hours and hour of my work" attitude. If you could make $40K/year while working on your open project, you could do it full time! THEN we'd see some nice word processors, web browsers, etc. for Linux and *BSD. Please don't moderate this down to troll or flaimbait as it raises very real points.
Prevent linux based DDOS's!
http://linux.denialofservice.org/
Linux (or rather Linus, since Linux, being an inanimate thing, can't "want" anything) is done for fun by developers. Linus has said words to this effect many times. Linus doesn't care about Microsoft or desktops or whether you or the general public use Linux.
If you reply, do so only to what I explicitly wrote. If I didn't write it, don't assume or infer it.
You'd think,
- give away the software (abiword)
- then make money by running a support center (bugs / hand holding)
well, we have seen all the 'services' companies with LInux go down the drain. why? b/c people who use Linux are already clueful. They know if something doesn't work
- fix it themsleves (this hardly happens)
- wait for the next release / rpm (this is where 90 % of the people are)
I don't think any one is converted to Linux just becaseu they saw a shiny 19.95 box on Best Buys.
There are however successfull LInux desktop deplyoment stories within Slashdot. Just do a search.
SO how do you make an IT dept adopt Linux? have an IT manager who is clueful. It is like when you choose an ISP, should you go for AOL or some niche isp who would let you run your own sendmail. We are talking about the AOL crowd here. Sure it is easy choice. But you grow out of it soon.
how do you make money off by offering value-add services to freesoftware? I haven't figured that out yet. If I did, I wouldn't be writing this from my office computer!
LinuxLover
In short, Open Source cannot deliver on the expectations of the average consumer. Hey Linux community, this is why Redmond will always kick your ass on the desktop and in the server room.
When posting a bug to bugzilla, please submit that bug (exact URL please) also to slashdot, so everyone can see it.
Microsoft must love having GNU/Linux as the only serious competitor. I can see them laughing all the way to the bank as they hear hoards of nerds suggesting, "if you have a problem, you can always fix it yourself from source!"
I'm sorry, but even I, a developer, can't think of anything more boring or time-wasting than spending hours every so often fixing the latest breakage in Free software. "Then don't use it!" Thanks for pointing the obvious out to me, that's usually my second move if I can't work out a solution.
(Of course, I'll also make bug reports or even suggest fixes if I have the time. But you know what? Not everyone can wait the 7-100 days for the fix, or spend the time themselves fixing it. I'd rather use a product that's been through QA or at least a _modicum_ of formal testing. Where do all these Free software developers get their time from anyway? Are they all students with rich parents?)
The glory of Microsoft desktop software is not that it is wonderfully bug free, although I've found a Microsoft desktop (Office and all) to be a lot more stable than any general X/*nix environment. The glory is that it works well enough for me to get on with my life.
EORant.
All y'all who are complaining that this means they're not commercial-grade, etc.: You're right! But it doesn't matter! These guys don't care about that, and they don't need to, because they're spending their own time on it. Use it if you like, don't if you don't, life goes on either way.
sulli
RTFJ.
I wonder if a fellow could pay the rent with an IRC support channel and a paypal account. I should look into that...
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
You do "atmospheric satellite data analysis" but you're too stupid to see a troll when it's slapping you in the face like a huge wet halibut? I'd love to get a job where you're at.
Let me explain.
You see, companies that use software aren't truly interested in the quality of the support they get. Rather, what they're really interested in is the appearance of support. That is, all they really care about is that they know that there is someone they theoretically could call for help if they need it. For these people, it's much more important for them to be able to easily identify who that entity is than it is for them to actually be able to get decent support from that entity.
So the reason that software from Microsoft and other larger software providers is more palatable to the average PHB than open source software is that they immediately know who to call for help, while the same isn't true of some piece of open source software.
This is true of the users as well. It doesn't matter if the support they get from their IT department sucks. What matters to them is that they know who to call for help, even if the "help" they get is essentially useless.
So like almost everything else in this world, appearance is much more important than substance.
Use 'slashdot stuff' in the subject line in any email you send me if you want to get past the spam filter.
I've been noticing with the influx of OS X users that the OSS comunity may well be missing out on a damn good oporotunity. Many Mac users new to the OSS world would be very interested in helping out some OSS projects, but very few of them are developers. But what many of them are is something that open source is in dire need of: designers and writers. No offence to any developers, but most open source documentation is pure-a shit and most of the interfaces are design nightmares. But I've seen almost no attempts to bring these folks into the fold so to speak. The condescension so typical of the geek community quickly turns these people off of the movement. We need to do more than bleat at users to provide code and bug reports, we need to woo profesional writers and designers into contributing their time to OSS in the same manner that proffesional developers do.
If Linux wants to be on alot of desktops then this type of memo isn't going to get it too far
Linux doesn't want anything -- it's an operating system, silly! Do you mean "if the programmers who write software for linux want it to be on desktops..."? Guess what: that's a diverse group including companies like Redhat, who undoubtably wants linux to be on a lot of desktops, and the people from Abiword, who just get their rocks off by writing neat software.
The authors of Abiword aren't responsible to "Linux," or Redhat, or RMS, or anyone else to maximize the user's desktop computing experience. If IT managers and John Q. Public don't want to use it, then fine. No skin of Abiword's back. They aren't after market-share.
That's the beauty of it. Nobody needs to tow the linux company line. If the author's of Abiword, first and foremost, wanted to make sure that their software was fit for all users and for corporate deployment, then they wouldn't have written their memo, and would quit their jobs and work on Abiword full-time, hire support personnel, etc., etc.,.
I don't think you should generalize about what the goals of linux programmers are.
/bluesninja
And do not say to just send money to GNU. Because an organization with a monopoly of any market can not be trusted to do what it's consumers wish. This applies to GNU, Microsoft, and RIAA alike, and also to charities (like United Way) and even the government itself. If it is possible to remove the middle organization and pay directly to the entity doing the work, then this should be done.
I've been working as a typist/word processor/document analyst for years now, and I HATE WORD! Word Perfect in its latest incarnation is nothing more than a Word clone, so it's not an option. I wanted to use only true open-source software, not proprietary like StarOffice, and I didn't need a whole suite. So I chose AbiWord. I'm a Linux newbie, and I was able to install AbiWord from the binaries (on Red Hat 6.0). The simplicity of the software is a refreshing change from all the packaged crap that wants to try to do everything for you (which is why I switched to Linux in the first place -- I've been working in Windows wayyyyy too long)! After reading the AbiSource letter, I signed up for both the developer and user mailing lists. If there are bugs in AbiWord (I haven't found any yet, BTW), I want to help fix 'em, not just whine about 'em -- maybe my years of being an end-user will finally amount to something!
There may not be prebuilt binaries for your platform. There aren't prebuilt binaries of commercial software for most platforms. AbiWord is probably ahead of MicroSoft here, and there's a chance that you can build binaries yourself if you need to, unlike with commercial software.
Complaining about bugs and missing features to places other than the proper channels will get you nowhere, and being rude about it won't help either. This is certainly true of all OSS. It's not true of MicroSoft, reportedly, but that's just because MicroSoft's proper channels are ignored by their programmers.
Getting support from programmers is difficult, in general, because they're busy programming. MicroSoft won't even let you talk to them. You can't demand a feature or to have a bug fixed from the makers of any software: what you want may be too difficult, or there may be more important things on the list.
The reduced functionality is what you'd have to expect from a newer program from a smaller group. It doesn't really matter whether the motivation is financial or not, a small number of people will write a program with fewer features than MS will. Hopefully the features that AbiWord has are the ones you want, and the features that are missing are ones that would just get in your way.
The letter is particular to AbiWord, but it applies in most of the parts to everyone, including MicroSoft.
Says something that is true, but anti-OSS, get moderated to troll.
This rant is totally reasonable. My question is--who can I pay for supporting Abiword? Let's say I'm a business, and want a Free word processor, and Abiword fits the bill perfectly. But, I know that my secretaries will need some questions answered. And occasionally, I might need a feature implemented (e.g., I'll need some document conversion done for my old dos-based word processor WinWord) Let's say I'm willing to pay for this. Who will take my money, and enter into this contract? Dom? Ximian? Who?
Your right! I should have known better.
I downloaded this once with the intention of distributing it as the default word processor on the machines I put together, but the lack of a sane build process made it more trouble than it was worth. IMO the lack of a consistent build procedure plagues the open-source world, seriously hindering the productivity of those who try to build systems around open software.
/usr/include and /usr/lib. On my systems /usr/include and /usr/lib don't even _exist_, and I can usually build autoconf-based packages within minutes. For most other things though, it's hit or miss, and Abiword was a big miss.
On a related note, does anyone know of a word processor that _does_ use autoconf? My time is too valuable to spend hours reading build procedures and resolving dependencies because the developers assume you have all the necessary libraries and header files (and the correct versions) in
Why is this "offtopic?" Abiword does indeed suck, this article is about Abiword, ergo to say Abiword sucks is germaine.
I think some open-source projects need to keep their developers on a tighter leash to prevent them from causing potential damage to their project in the sense of "But he said I can do the laundry with this spreadsheet, I read it on [insert favorite forum here]..." .sig, you'll see it move, honest.
Me, I'm content with any piece of software that does what it claims to do.
If you look closely at my
- Linux kernel version 2.4.mumble has problems and people ask "how can this be releasable". It's not stable!
- gcc 3.0 is unstable for the first few releases and folks start whining about how this isn't a production-quality compiler
- AbiWord says that they're not providing commercial-grade support services and everyone gets honked off and claims that open source software can't work
Can you all just take a step back, breathe deeply and remind yourselves that in any software organization with more than 10 developers there are two versions of the software (at least):- The development snapshot (or mainline, depending one your local terminology). This is a stable release from the developers to inernal customers such as Q/A, release engineering and perhaps alpha testers for integration testing and embeded product testing.
- The release. This is the ready-for-prime-time code that will be supported and maintained by the company.
Are you seeing the parallel here? When Linus releases kernel 2.4.57, he's releaseing a snapshot that lets Q/A (made up of Q/A groups in numerous companies that sell Linux-based products) release engineering (the distribution vendors) and alpha integration testers (embedded systems customers) begin their test and release cycle. Same for AbiWord. Ximian, Red Hat and many others release AbiWord, but I doubt that they ever release it absolutely as shipped. Their Q/A process only begins when AbiSource creates a new version.So, here's the question of the day: why are people shocked when the developers start acting like developers and say "we're not going to hand-hold you"? Well, there's a few reasons. Obviously there are the folks who just wait for an opportunity to slam OSS. Then there are the people who have become confused and don't realize that the Mozilla developers or the AbiWord developers are just that: developers. Then there are the folks who get their priorities confused. They say that they don't want to deal with "big business software", so they go it alone. This is all well and good, but when you do this, you have to expect the other shoe to drop.
If you're downloading gcc 3.0 the day it comes out because you want the new features fast, great! But, don't be shocked when your code fails to work correctly because you have a hardware combination that was not well tested. If you'd waited for Red Hat 7.2, you would have found the optional gcc 3.0.x binaries with a big old wad of patches. Why? Because they tested it, patched it, and released it.
Get over it. Software support is hard, and there are people in the OSS world that do it well. But, to expect every project to come out the gate with good Q/A and support is just silly.
I just checked Abisource's site and it appears that 0.9.6 is on it's way. The site says 0.9.6 but not all the download links are updated. Your best bet is to browse http://prdownloads.sourceforge.net/abiword/ and see if what you need is there. Right now I only see the abiword-0.9.6.1.tar(.gz)...I'm sure more will follow soon... Nice timing, /.!
I actually agree with this statement. As much as many of us hate the evil empire, some of their support options are fairly decent.
:)
:)
I haven't had a wide variety of experience with all of their support services, but what I have used hasn't been too bad.
I tried the phone route one time which was erm, interesting. Instead of playing chessy hold music, they have like an actual DJ.
"That was Pink Floyd - The Wall. Currently, there are 14 people waiting on hold for help right now with an average wait of 20 minutes. Next up, Aerosmith."
I have to admit, it was slightly amusing. So maybe there is a reason for their overpriced software?
One other support service I have done is their online tech support. Once you describe your problem (I'm usually dealing with Access at work), they are pretty good at responding within a short time. Sometimes within a few hours, but never more than a day or so. They do a good job at helping out with solutions. I think there's only been 2 times they haven't been able to help me, but that is only because my company wants to do stuff that Access isn't "l337" enough to support.
I guess to each his own. There are probably those who have horrible issues with Microsoft support, but I'm sure you can find those same cases among the linux community. (Look at many of the elitist pricks who offer such wonderful advice as formatting hard drives and burning computers to inexperienced users
Dave
Really? I can't stand KOffice, I've never managed to get OpenOffice to run, and StarOffice is so slow I try not to use it. Abiword, on the other hand, does everything I need, very little that I don't, and is just as fast as starting an eterm to run VI or just starting emacs. So tell me, how is AbiWord inferior?
Of course, the nice thing about OpenSource is that you can use the version you like, which has lots of features and runs well on your machine, and I can run the version I like, which has almost no features and runs on my machine. For that matter, most of my papers over the past year or so have been written in html, using pine. But whatever.
Really, is a $40,000 Mercedes all that much better than a $16,000 VW? It used to be that the more expensive cars had more advanced features like fuel-injection and ABS; but those are standard on almost all cars now.
Yet I know people who wouldn't even consider buying the cheaper car, even if they have to go into debt for the more expensive brand.
perhaps now, yes; but in the fever-pitch Browser Wars, MS mentioned that the development of IE cost about $500M. That's half a *billion* dollars, for lots of programmers putting in long hours for high-speed development.
Okay, quick, name any other widely-used project with a budget, say, $1M. None? How about $100,000?
This Christmas, give the gift that keeps on giving -- a job! my resume is available
I wonder if they used their own grammar-checker.
Java is the blue pill
Choose the red pill
At some point in my life as a network administrator, I had to realize that questions from my users were not going to get any smarter. Joe Six Pack is never going to learn how to fix and compile his own software. Never. He will only be able to a) use it or b) complain about it when it doesn't work.
My heart really goes out to the AbiWord team, and I find myself wondering about a bigger question. Can Open Source software really become mainstream (as in Microsoft/Apple-style mainstream) without help from a for-profit organization to support it? There are tons of new BSD (Mac OS X) users signing up everyday, but it is because Apple is selling it, not because it's great and Free.
I am not flaming here. I know, however, that as more people download and use AbiWord (or any other OSS), these problems with too-high-expectations are going to get worse, not better. With or without an open letter.
You've given a fairly accurate account of the consumer end user layer, but the parent comment was addressing the corporate purchasing layer. The purchasing departments of big companies only buy one thing from vendors -- accountability. The open source community is deluding itself if it thinks that it can establish an equivalency with the software giants without absorbing post-sale/license accountability for their products. Let me repeat: vendor accountability is the number one criterion for corporate procurement. Any product that isn't supported (or at least APPEARS to be supported) by the vendor is not going to work in a corporate environment, because the last thing that CIO's want is to in-source support for functions. Doing so would make them accountable for failures, and would preclude them from going to the Board of Directors and arguing that Microsoft (or any other IT vendor) sucks.
I woulds say I have to agree %100..
I use windows because my OS of Choice BeOS in no longer being mantained.
I would love to see AbiWord be compatable enough with word that I can do what I need to do, but still be fast and nimble.
You think you can command MS to fix an annoyance in Word before noon tomorrow and have your wishes fulfilled?
In my experience companies are MORE likely to turn a deaf ear than open source developers, unless you are paying a $30,000+ / yr support contract.
There were three bugs which were annoying me in 0.9.4, and all but one of them was fixed on 0.9.5. The one they didn't fix I was able to fix myself--an option that I would not have had if AbiWord was a proprietary product.
The source code to AbiWord is clean and readily readable, the user interface to AbiWord is very professional-looking, and it is perfect for my Spanish-language compositions.
Speaking of which, I really should get off Slashdot and start working on tonight's paper.
- Sam
The secret to enjoying Slashdot is to realize that it should not be taken too seriously.
abiword is one of the most over hyped
pieces of crap out there.
their motto on the web page is
'do they care about users'?
Good deal!!! I have got (ten) Abi to work with M$ Word by redefining paths. I am sure that total compatibility isn't far if I am capable of that ! lol... They are the best because of their perseverance. They do not say "die" and they are dedicated. As far as plug-ins go, with "wv" one can do wonders.
Rien n'est plus beau que le creux du 0.
Who gives a fuck what "Joe sixpack" thinks? It works for me and that's all I give a fuck about. I don't care if he goes out and buys every piece of MS software that comes out. He's the one getting shafted up the arse, not me.
I'll stick to my quality, free, open-source software and everyone else can go fuck themselves.
Of course if you have to be able to fix the source to get stuff to work (even if it's only a minor fix), then you can't argue with the people who claim "Linux isn't ready for the desktop - you need to be a programmer to use it." You can't have it both ways.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
If you want to give away large pieces of software
you can't tie your name to it. This exemplifies
the point. People expect not just support but
guarantees for mechantilability and fitness
for a particular purpose. The GPL protects you
from legal retaliation but not personal
retaliation. If you give out large programs and
fail to guarantee support, merchantilability, and
fitness for a particular purpose you'll never work
on software for a living again.
StarOffice has a much more impressive feature list: multiplatform support, much better support for WordXP/2K import/export, java, international spellchecker etc.
StarOffice is laughably bloated, and is worthless for mere mortals to make use of. I've tried and tried, and gave up a few months ago.
KOffice can't work with any document format except for HTML and their own KOffice format. A nice word processor, but worthless without at least RTF.
Abiword, OTOH, is a simple word processor that does everything well. It's not at the point where it's my daily word processor, but I've watched it come along over the months, and I definitely feel like it's getting there.
-Waldo Jaquith
Honestly: if your troubles aren't too complex or too technical in nature, your chances are good that you'll find -after some googeling- a webpage explaining a fix or a workaround. Commercial product support often only give workaround (ever called Oracle?)
Once even I was stuck on an obscure PCMCIA SCSI card, and I complained about it on slashdot. The next day there was a friendly mail from a fellow slashdot reader that explained me to download the pcmcia-cs package instead of relying on the kernel itself for PCMCIA support. I didn't expect this to happen and for this thanks to the slashdot user that helped me (hope you read this!) And this is actually quite a technical question.
I think the technical support that normal user needs, has rarely that kind of complexity. I work at a consulting company and if the secretary (or management/marketing type) has a problem they ask the guys in standby. I guess, in more traditional companies, they call the internal helpdesk and/or ask the IT guy when he emerges from the basement to fetch some coffee.
The home user is another type of animal: I never met anyone who actually called the support of Microsoft for help with installing their printer (for example). I reinstall/troubleshoot people (payment: one case of beer and free beer while I'm helping out) and I have seen home configurations with tons of non-working devices on machines ranging from Windows 3.0 to Windows 2000.
For one point: Linux is not yet ready for the desktop in the classic sense (I use it as desktop, but that's not important), but in companies that have well-defined installations and platforms it might stand a chance. Home user desktop: not yet, for that it is too complex to manage... I need to say that it gets better, but it's not there yet.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
Point is: people look at your car and rate you according to it, they don't look at the software you run on your computer as long as it "works". Actually software is even worse: people actually looked at my Linux desktop and the most common exlamation was "Say, that isn't windows, how can you do any work on it?" Mostly I just smile and don't bother, they don't want to listen anyway.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
The KOffice format is XML that is gzip/tarred up. In essence, it's similar to the Abiword format.
...success.
"And about advancing the Linux cause, isn't truth and honesty a little more effective in the long run than false expectations?"
Right on. We need more people thinking this way. Any argument with the above is what's *wrong* with most businesses.
You fucking hypocrite nazi editors.
------------
Yeah, you stick to the quality of open source software.
The rest of us will laugh at you in the street - 'cos that's where you'll be living, loser.
Just curious here... A long time ago, the Abiword project refused to become the official (i.e. to the exclusion of "all others") word processor for GNOME. To this day, you can get GNOME and non-GNOME versions of Abiword.
Why is this assigned to the GNOME topic?
"Last night's 'Itchy & Scratchy' was, without a doubt, the worst episode ever. Rest assured that I was on the Internet within minutes, registering my disgust throughout the world." "As a loyal viewer," he added, "I feel they owe me."
"What?" said Bart. "They've given you thousands of hours of entertainment for free. What could they possibly owe you? If anything, you owe them."
The Comic Book Guy's answer: "Worst episode ever."
Maybe development efforts -- open source or otherwise -- ought to scale their dreams back to something they can do well and finish before they hit retirement age.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Hey, just wanted to tell you that I think you guys are on the right track and I use your app more than any other because its small and does the job I need it too. Star Office is too big and KOffice doesn't do msword. But yours is a great product! Thank-you!
AbiWord isn't. It's not even at version 1.0 yet.
Female Prison Rape in NY
ready for (some) desktops.
No it's not. Between Star Office, Koffice and Abiword they're either barly working with missing features, crash when trying to do work or don't even install. Maybe in a couple years...
...then Joe Sixpack and the rest of the world can see what assholes we are,and commit to buying from a professional outfit like MS.
I feel the same way you do. But if these companies want to make money they are going to have to start catering to "Joe sixpack". Other wise they'll all go out of business.
Snoozer.
I think that the underlying point is that it's difficult for them to keep up with high expectations when they are such a small group of developers. It seems to me that this is an example of a project that is, unfortunately, not benefitting from the strengths of open source development.
Ideally, when you have a project whose source is open, all users are free to contribute. The entire user body joins in the development effort and the project almost evolves by itself. That's how I understand the "bazaar" model of development.
OTOH, from the sound of this letter, AbiWord is not getting the benefit from a large user base. They still only have a small group of their users who contribute to the code or even report bugs through the proper channels. It sounds like they have fallen into the "cathedral" model, even as they are trying to be a bazaar.
So what's an open source project to do? I think they are on the right track. They need to mobilize their user base to report bugs and encourage more developers to contribute. Again, I don't mean this as criticism at all, but as encouragement. Open source is strong because everybody helps.
I have. I found some bugs in the version of Microsoft Word that came with my legally purchased copy of Office 2000 Professional, I called them up and naively expected to be able to talk to someone about the bug I found. Furthermore (and yes, this is just how clueless I was about the process of dealing with Microsoft) I actually expected to get a response that would help me.
As is probably obvious to those of you who have dealt with Microsoft, I did not get anything close to what I expected. I was not belligerant at all. I was calm and friendly at all times. But I expected bugs in software I paid 100% of the asking price for to be fixed at some indeterminate point in the future. At the least, I expected to be able to tell Microsoft about the bugs. And I expected the fixes to be made available to me either for free (as a way of saying 'thank you' for reporting the bugs) or at a reasonable sum to cover shipping (if the fix required a new CD). I knew nothing about the process of dealing with Microsoft. I was in for a rude awakening.
I was courteously told that if I wanted to pay them more money per hour to hear my problem, I could do so (in fact I could give them my Visa number right over the phone and continue talking with the operator I was talking to). I told them I thought it was ridiculous of them to expect me to pay them to help them by reporting bugs in their software. I asked if there was a guarantee I'd get the fixes if I paid the hourly fee? "No, there is no guarantee. A fix will either be made available for free as an update or in the next version of Microsoft Word." "Which I'll be expected to pay for?" "Yes.". I told the operator I wasn't mad at them personally (I realize they are just doing their job) but I hope they understood my perspective on this. The operator understood, I then politely declined and we hung up.
It was then I learned I wasn't going to get any reasonable bug support (not even listening to a bug report) from Microsoft. I began looking at alternative word processors and I ended up learning about AbiWord. It certainly wasn't true for me that you get what you pay for with Microsoft. I could have paid them and never have seen fixes to my problems.
the line "please don't moderate this down as it raises very real points" is a dead giveaway. Who modded this moron up?
Let users pay Microsoft, let developers create Linux...
Auto Summarize.
They laughed at Einstein. They laughed at the Wright Brothers. But they also laughed at Bozo the Clown. -- C. Sagan
The staff of these purchasing departments must be populated by illiterates then. The EULA of every single software package I've ever seen disclaims all responsibility for fitness of purpose. Apparently, it must have some legal force because I've also never heard of Microsoft or any other major software house being held accountable for bugs.
On the other hand, one CAN hold a company accountable for not fulfilling the terms of a service contract. The purchase price of the software is irrelavent compared to the cost of that all important service contract. But guess what?! Most software houses aren't in the business of selling service contracts; they sell licences. It is the VARs and retailers that sell service and some of THEM will even support open/free source.
These idiot beancounters need to realize they should be paying for service not software. The software is just bits on a disk, a eula, and a Certificate of Authenticity. The service is what truly costs something regardless of whether the solution is proprietary or open source.
If the beancounters don't want to in-source support then they can buy it. Sheesh! but can beancounters be really dumb!
http://www.red-bean.com/~joelh/vigor/screenshots/
Heh. Heh.
I think one problem with the open source philosophy is that is opens the door for companies like openosx. The people at openosx simply repackage unix apps to run on osx. however, they seem to make no mention of who wrote the software. for example if you look at this page they make no mention that they didnt write any of the software. Then they decide to charge $30 for their repackaging, and give nothing back to the community.
you can make the argument that the various linux distros do the same, but any of the good ones always give back to the community.
I feel that this practice will become even more of a problem in the future when a lot of the major open source apps come to maturity.
I had to walk uphill both ways to school through 3 feet of snow, without shoes. And there was broken glass on the sidewalk under that snow, and the wind was always blowing in my face, never once a tailwind, and when I got to school, it was 12 hours long, and there was never any daylight when I got out, to walk back, uphill again, through more snow and hail in the evening and that driving wind. And when I got home my father beat me, because that's the way he did it.
And I liked it, goddamnit!
So who do you work for? It sounds like a good place to land a job.
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
Not GPL, not BSD, Public Domain. Just like it is done in science.
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
What should have happenned is that the distro shouldn't have been sent out with a broken RPM.
But given that it was, what Abiword should have done was put a big bold link on their web page saying that "Red Hat 7.1 shipped with a completely broken RPM. Click here to fix it." That link would take you to a page with two instructions.
1) download _this_ ( with a link )
2) rpm -i
Instead users poke around wonderring what the problem is and how to fix it. The version of Abiword online is much more recent but it talks about all these depends and stuff and so people aren't sure if it will work for Red Hat 7.1 or if they will have to mess around to fix it. Users don't want to screw around with that and so they just decide to save often and hope that it doesn't crash.
Also, it could be that Red Hat packaged that software themselves, I don't know.
And Red Hat's bug tracking site is not as easy to navigate as debian's.
And Red Hat doesn't do enough to educate users about how to update their packages automatically. With Debian it is the first thing that users learn how to do.
I respect Red Hat a lot. They hire many great programmers. They have done a lot for the Linux community. But they really need to work on user interface issues better.
Thanks for poisoning the well...
Hmm...I am beginning to wonder if there is anyway of declaring fundamental problems and not trolling. Its just like declaring the fundamental problems of politics, capitalism, and anything else I can think of. Fundamental problems simply do not exist in reasonable arguments.
Okay, Moderators? If by now you can't tell this is a troll then you really shouldn't be moderating. Given that this post is rated +4, there needs to be a reworking on who gets moderator privilidges...
Okay...I'm done with this article. Its just not worth it.
Exactly. This is 100% correct. Linux is only free for those whose time is worthless.
Thankyou for showing that MS is the best way to go.
Which probably won't fly real well with the developers.
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
This has nothing to do with OpenSource. ,which has almost no features ( comparable to Abiword.)
I can run Windows and use Word, which has lots of features, and I can run included WordPad
I don't know why there are so many posts criticising the Abiword team, or saying that open source won't work. It doesn't make sense to say that open source won't work because it already has: it is the dominant web server platform for example. Have a look at the Apache web site—there isn't a toll-free number that you can call if you get stuck.
:-) )
I run a software business; we use some commercial software and some open source software. We don't really use open source software because of the price, though that is a factor. We use it because the best open source products are better than their commercial counterparts. Apache is a good case in point; our web server hasn't been 0wn3d yet.
Also if we use commercial software, it is written for the supplier's benefit. OpenOffice writes files in a (rather complicated) XML format, so if we need to do something else with the documents it's possible. Word, probably deliberately, writes files in an opaque format that keeps changing. We use Word at the moment but we would like to change, so we keep control of the business and not Microsoft. We may well make the change when the new StarOffice release ships. (Sorry Abiword; but I am downloading the latest version now so you are in with a chance.
Open source gives you flexibility. There is something I would like to do to the Mozilla composer, which would make it into a completely different tool. With open source I can do that. Even with "free beer" Internet Explorer I couldn't because the interface exported by Microsoft isn't enough to do what I want.
Windows+Office: several hundred dollars to write a letter once in a while, or my CV or whatever.
Linux+Abiword: 10 dollars (cheap Debian CD distro, including posting and handling) to write a letter once in a while, or my CV or whatever.
Now, convince me: why I should use MS software?
I don't need to pay: all what I need is free and open, so even if the Abiword team decides to call it a day and stop development that does not mean all my documents all of the sudden become all crap and then I need to upgrade or else.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I don't need no stinkin' guide to write good bugs - my fellow programmers say I write the best bugs, and I never read any guides!
All I can say is, what a well written and straightforward explanation. Kudos! This should be appended to the GPL. Too many people using OpenSource or GPL software are whiners and flamers about features and stability. Hey, you get what you pay for. Most of these projects are a gift to the world at large. And often, as in the case of AbiWord, it's a truly nice gift.
I'm a proponent of free, as in no cost, software, having been poverty stricken for most of my life. To find free software that works has always been great, but some free software out there is more valuable, elegant, and featureful than commercial software. For that I'm grateful.
In fact I've always felt great appreciation for the developers who've released free software for people to use, and given what I could to support them. (Think NewsWatcher and the Mac anti-virus software that John Norstad gave to the Mac community)
Ever since I first discovered AbiWord I've been amazed at how nicely done it is, and have recommended it to my Windows users who cannot afford MS Word, or who hate MS and are trying to without their products as much as possible.
So, if you've read the letter. Follow it to the letter. And keep it in mind when you download/install/use other free/opensource/GPL stuff.
Because, what happens? You have an installed version of the system, but you would like fearture this-and-that. You go to (e.g.) IRC, to find out if you're the only one having this bug or feature request. Together with other IRC enthousiasts, you formulate quite an exact description of the problem. Next thing, you're reffered to the bug system.
You read the instructions on the bug system. Says: always get the very latest version before filing a complaint. Makes you use CVS and stuff instead of this simple Debian package you used earlier.
Now try to imagine that you, as a normal user, didn't give up at this point. Amazing, but OK. You checked out CVS, built the darn thing [got root access] and installed it. Bug still there, but sy least you're now free to file it.
Next, enter Bugzilla. To everyone who has ever seen Bugzilla I bet it's needless to say more. To those who haven't: it's like the cockpit of a plain. And I can't fly. Actually, AFAIK, I never got to filing a Bugzilla bugreport.
The core of this problem is, that for the sake of smooth functioning, the user has become part of the development system. And not just that, but it has become part of this in quite a high level, at least for some. Lots of people give up filing bugreports when they're confronted with all the protocol. It's like filling in your tax forms is easier. Often their bug might already been filed, but its hard to find it back, exactly.
Now of course this isn't a problem in itself. It gets problematic when:
Question is of course: where is the solution? I've found that many bug databases do function as a healthy discussion board. BugZilla does. But for many people it still feels like your bug is bound to get lost somewhere within the bureaucracy.
Some say they don't want to make bugfiling more attractive, because this keeps the quality of the bugs that do come through, high. This way, the AbiWord problem remains, of course.
I don't know. Maybe some kewl combination of a discussion board and bug system, where you can e.g. just discuss everything, and when you've found you've reached an important topic, you can mark it as a bugreport or feature request, and from there do the same things as in other BTSes (e.g. merge it with another report, etc.)
I think most current BTSes are modeled after the idea of maintaining bugs within a company, the closed source way. Being open, there might be need for another approach. I might be wrong, though.
"We can confirm that Debian does *not* ship the version with the trojan horse. Our version predates it." [CA-2002-28]
... simply wouldn't sell enough to pay for the administrative overhead. None of the cheaer alternatives to MS Word is doing well on the market, even before StarOffice was bought by Sun and made available gratis.
The only price that can compete with a market leader for office applications is $0, or a clearly superior product.
I guess I'll let myself be trolled...
:-) then you're shooting yourself in the foot.
My credentials: I'm a software engineer writing code for car engine controllers, and before that I wrote code for power station control systems, and before that I was at uni with a final-year project writing a 2-D CAD package using Xt. So I'm not completely clueless. If I so chose, I could spend all my free time over the next few months learning how to put this stuff together from step 1.
Thing is, I don't so choose. My PC is a tool, in the same way as my soldering iron is. If I have the choice of spending every evening for the next 6 months learning how to do a kernel recompile, or spending the money and having time free to spend with my wife, I'll choose the MS option every time. Sorry, but I've got a life to live, and spending the time learning stuff that's ultimately irrelevant to my actual interests is less important to me than getting on with my other interests (for the record, my current spare-time project is an open-source, open-hardware universal chip programmer).
To take an example, is your car a kit car? If you buy a kit car from a manufacturer, you've got a box of bits which with the application of maybe 6 months work, you can turn into a serious performance sportscar that's incredibly reliable, and all for half the price of the real thing. If you're really dedicated, you can even buy yourself just a load of sheet metal and tubing and build it completely from scratch! But most ppl don't - they buy a Ford or a Honda or something like that. They're not paying for a better car, they're paying for a car which they can drive off the forecourt and will take them where they want to go. It depends whether your car is a way of life, and you're prepared to spend every waking hour underneath it getting your hands dirty, or whether it's just transport. Some production cars are a more pleasant means of transport, but it's still just a way of getting from A to B.
And that's how software is for most ppl - it's a tool to do a job. If the tool claims to do the job but doesn't (or if the tool is welded into the box!
Grab.
I've been using abiword to write letters, and I don't have the latest version (what ever debian package is current for potato...). Anyway it does have some flaws but it gets the job done. It still can't compete with word for real fancy jobs (but word drives me NUTS when it comes to paragraph formating! Give me WP's reveal codes, PLEASE!!!)
I've also used WP on both windows and Linux. The Linux version is a little buggy, but at least it exchanges files with the windows version in both directions.
For the causual user Abi Word is more than usable right now. For the enterprise, Star Office might be a better choice. I like Abi Word's method of coding future features, they give the source file and line where to go to add the feature that is not yet there! (I bet they have received quite a few patches for new features!).
If more people would READ the text of the GPL license maybe they would stop flamming products like Abi Word. "This software is released in the hope that it may be usefull" or something like that. Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Thank you Abi Word, keep up the good work.
GNU/Linux is not a [commercial] competitor of Microsoft. Mandrake, Caldera, Red-Hat are. They sell packaged open-source software for money, so they shall be worried not to release shitty packages, if they want to keep their customers.
GNU/Linux is a _technical_ competitor of Windows ...but this is another story.
Ciao
----
FB
Slamming Word or any other MSFT product is something that everyone should be able to indulge in freely. Why let the experts have all the fun?
No, your children are not the special ones. Nor are your pets.
Am I the only one who thinks LyX is a far better way of producing documents than *Word or *Office? While granted the LaTeX-based paradigm is substantially different, LyX manages to shield the user from a most of the really hairy details of LaTeX itself.
So, with all this warring about *Word and *Office, I'd like to know whether there are many slashdotters using LyX who are just keeping silent about it, or skipping this (to them) irrelevant topic.
Why? This assumes that everyone wants or needs a computer and this is a fallacy sold to you by the manufacturers of computer hardware and the hard-core nerds that use them.
Software as a public service would require that the government regulate not only the price, but the features and functions available (minimum standards) and the interoperability. There is very little wiggle room when dealing with government standards. Not to mention the fact that the software for one OS would probably need to run on every other OS (which does away with the need for multiple OS's).
Public service software requires public service hardware as well. Once again, the requirements of minimum standards. Government regulation usually requires that a product be dumbed down for the average user, rather than allowing any kind of degree of control.
Plus, you have the regulation on usage, deployment, and content; the inevitable lawsuits because someone can't use aforementioned public service software and hardware, etc., plus the costs and bureaucracy associated with maintaining public standards.
Government usually lags behind the public sector in knowledge and technology, so your public service machines would always be at least two to three years out of date.
The idea of software as a public service raises a whole lot more problems than it solves, in my opinion. If you want to produce free software and call it a public service that's one thing, but don't start asking for it to be the equivalent of roads, water, and sewage.
Leave the government out of it, please. We have enough problems already.
To celebrate the occasion of my 1000th post, I will post no more forever on Slashdot. Goodbye.
Free Software/Open Source Software is not a homogenous group of developers. Even calling it a community is wrong... it's both more and less than a community*.
Different software developers have different goals as members of the FS/OSS community. (Of course, they have different goals in other contexts, also.) This means that to expect everyone to do things for the same reason is to be disappointed. Some are, indeed, out to destroy capitalism. Others are trying to grow a consulting business (the essence of capitalism). Others are after fame. Others are doing term projects. Others... well, I don't know all of the reasons. I don't even remember all of the ones that I've encountered.
To assert that FS/OSS programmers are doing something for some particular reason is to guarantee that is both wrong and right. Some of them are doing it for that reason. (And I say this without even knowing what reason you are proposing. [OK, so it's a bit of an exaggeration.])
* It's less than a community because it doesn't deal with the full range of human activity. E.g., thought members of the community may die, none of them are born (that happens in high school or college, and is hidden -- they are born elsewhere, and then migrate into the community).
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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
It sounds like you've never called the help line. Most people who answer them are ... sometimes I wonder if they have ever used the product that they are advising on. About a decade ago I decided that paying for commercial support was a waste of money. The companies were treating it as a profit center rather than a user resource.
And talk about not thinking your time was worth anything! I've spent hours on hold and gotten essentially zero in return. Well, this was toward the end of the time, after everyone started outsourcing their help desks. In the earlier period there would sometimes be someone at the other end who knew what he was talking about.
I admit that I don't find e-mail lists to be spectacularly helpful either, but at least I don't feel ripped off. It doesn't cost anything to ask for help, sometimes you get it, if you don't, it might get to the attention of the developer, and one doesn't need to spend hours on hold. Commercial support tends to lack all of those virtues.
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I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
That's how I felt last year, but now...
... as long as I can co-exist with the rest of the office. That's the hang up. I hope to do cross-platform development using wxWindows (but again, I'll need to check this out more on the Linux end). But until I can log onto the LAN, there's no use. Afterwards, I just need compatible applications. So I'm looking into programs that run on both platforms. And Open Office is starting to look pretty good.
Have you looked at this month's version of Open Office? On windows I'm starting to consider migrating to it from MS Office. I will need to try it on Linux first, though. If I were on Win98, NT, etc. I'd probably consider KWord, but I can't get that to run on my Win95 box. What I find really missing is a good Netware connection, but Netware 6 is supposed to fix that. At that point I may just switch away from Windows
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
A word of warning for this link. Two words: Gay Porn.
Lots of windows opened, almost killed my poor Win98 box. (Linux could've handeled it!) hehehe
Gee, thanks for that and all the talk about "Zelots" "spewing". You must get a kick out of abusing the whole free software movement at Slashdot's expense. You even seem to enjoy abusing slashdot itself.
Otter again:I accept that dealing with a desktop Linux installation is a hobby in its own right and that you have to spend time to make it work and deal with some things that justa aren't there.
How insightful. You seemed to have missed the whole point of free software, that superior software comes from sharing the development of common tasks. I'll have to point people who might be misled by you to the free software foundation where they can mull freedom for themselves.
Your comment expresses the existance of something I'm not aware of. Just what is missing from Abi Word, Star Office, KDE Word, or vi/ispell/Latex, for that matter? I use M$ Word everyday because the company forces it on me. Of it's vast capability, 90% is useless fluff that gets broken at each "upgrade", 5% is anoying and must be turned off again at each "upgrade", and the remaining 5% produces spellchecked text with funny characters in a disgusting binary format that gets broken with each "upgrade". I used to use Word Perfect, until M$ broke it ruining their platform. Comercial software has mostly provide me with headaches, and their adverts are bad jokes. I'd like to see the comercial OS that does all that you imply Linux should do before it's ready for the desktop.
Sheldon now:I think you've hit upon the fundamental problem with Open Source. It's not that Open Source is a bad thing, it can actually be quite good. But it's ridiculous to assume it will ever completely replace the commercial software market.
Oh my, there's an echo in this room. Thanks for the recomendation. Now I know just how to get my work done. I'd better throw all that good free software I have at home away fast.
You two virtual people need to get real jobs. I'm really sick of running into you two bullshitters while I'm trying to catch up on news.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
Netscape 4 on Linux has some built-in protection against anything more than ten windows. Lunix roolz!
Thats where you would be wrong. Abiword undergoes quite a lot of testing before releases, there is a small group of people providing and/or running nighlty builds and evil sadists doing strange things to abiword that the developers never expected (think ants + magnifying glass + sunshine).
There would be more testing too if the binaries were not made available within a day or two of the code tree being tagged for release.
Also, abiword follows the
odd = unstable
even = stable
numbering system and has NEVER released nor claimed to have released a stable and supported version.
v1.0 will be the first stable supported version.
AFAIK there will be a Paypal (or something similar) account open soon.
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AC because i cant waste my mod points, but damn im feeling like ill miss out on some karma for this one.
Otter said:Nope, that's the Open Source people. You might want to read the FSF site a little more carefully, especially the stuff distinguishing "Free" from "Open Source"
Not a problem. I love reading FSF pages.
Implicit in all free speech is the public good. In the clasic case of speech, free publication is frank and honest discource. Without it truth does not emerge. In the software case, freedom is the ability to modify and distribute improved code for any purpose. Without it software can not improve. The goal is better software, freedom is the means. It can be argued that freedom is a goal in and of itself, but it's more sensible to see it as it is. Freedom is not cheap, it is not easy, but it is the only way to assure the public good. Let's have a look at some of the things the FSF has to say:
How about RMS's clasic Why sofware should be free ... I would like to consider the same question using a different criterion: the prosperity and freedom of the public in general."
"The existence of software inevitably raises the question of how decisions about its use should be made.
and " In other words, we should perform a cost-benefit analysis on behalf of society as a whole, taking account of individual freedom as well as production of material goods. In this essay, I will describe the effects of having owners, and show that the results are detrimental. My conclusion is that programmers have the duty to encourage others to share, redistribute, study and improve the software we write: in other words, to write ``free'' software.(1)"
From "Why software should not have owners".
"What does society need? It needs information that is truly available to its citizens---for example, programs that people can read, fix, adapt, and improve, not just operate."
It seems that they only way to get the software you want, which we will call "best", is to have free software. Software optimization is a FSF goal as well. Indeed "bad" software part of the material harm non free software and bogus laws cause us all.
Now go jump in a lake with a raft the size of your UID.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
If you are used to the LyX way of doing it then there is currently work underway to allow you to "Lock Styles", which should be effectively the same as the "What you see is what you want" philosphy that LyX has.
I expect it will be available soon after v1.0.
if you are worried about the stability of abiword then wait for the official stable releases, v1.0 and then v1.2, all the existing builds are odd numbered and to be considered unstable (although thankfully there are still quite stable).
i find LyX difficult to use, i dont like be told what i want.
One mans meat is another mans poison.
You dont have to be a developer to contribute.
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org
you definately wont get the feature you want if you dont ask in the right place.
submit a Request for Enhancement to abiwords bugzilla
http://bugzilla.abisource.com
or better yet, convince/bribe/hire a developer to do it for you.
Dont expect the lead developers to add any new features until post v1.0, but the flexible plugin architecture might suit the feauture you want (or possible hiding behind an #ifdef DEBUG would allow your new feature to be added).
but definately submit a full description of what exactly "WP reveal codes" means to Bugzilla. Submitting to Bugzilla ensure that your suggesting will not get forgotten in the mailing list archives, mailing the developers is not as good as submitting it to Bugzilla.
that link one more time:
http://bugzilla.abisource.com.
(damn if i didn't have mod points id be getting karma for this for sure)