Slashdot Mirror
Sony vs Modchips
Cryptnotic writes "Sony
has decided to instigate legal action against companies distributing two new Playstation 2 modchips, the Messiah and the NEO4. Sony has previously ignored modchip makers who made products which were only capable of playing CD-R copies of games. These new modchips, however, have legitimate uses, such as playing original import games or out-of-region DVD's. Aparrantly this is what has angered Sony." If I could read Kanji I'd probably care a bit more ;)
Sony, as a member of the MPAA and RIAA, probably cares a great deal about you playing out-of-region DVDs.
- (c) 2018 Hank Zimmerman
I guess none of us should be surprised at this. After all, we know how the big distribution houses like to do things, and how we (the consumers) really have no choice.
Well, I hope this gets people angry, because it's really such an obvious ploy to line Sony's pockets with our money. I really don't see how these companies can keep this sort of thing up without any sort of outcry from those of us that own the products that we can't do what we want to with.
I mean, geez, if Sony doesn't want me hacking up it's boxes, why did it _sell_ them to me? Come on Sony, ligthen up!
If Sony curbs modchips, then people won't be able to bypass the copy protection. Your case with the Dell is flawed, because the PC is open hardware. PS2 is closed to the max, and they are attached to both the hardware (which they don't make money off of) and the software.
Not to say that this is fair in a legal respect, but Sony isn't thinking about law (like every other corporation); they are thinking about money. Again, blame the creation of the stock market for creating this mentality in businesses.
Zodiac Survey
No, but they do care that Channel is SELLING modchips. They dont care if you take a sledgehammer to your PS2, or if you reverse engineer the super duper soundchip or something. Just dont sell it.
I find regional coding abhorrent myself, but in terms of law, providing the capability of running software that isn't licensed for a release in a given region is one of the specific things the DMCA was meant to stop. It was practically written by Sony (and its cohorts).
I survived the Dick Cheney Presidency 7 to 9 AM 7-21-07
The solution is obvious, boycott the Sony Playstation 2 until they change their attitude. After all, there are alternatives.
They are *not* angry about modchips that will allow people to play games of theirs that are copied? Or they weren't angry for six years but now are?
And they *are* mad about a product that will allow people to play original games (albeit from different regions) that they would have to then purchase?
That reads to me as they haven't minded about being ripped off for the past six years, but don't want customers to play their actual games?
I *must* be missing something, or the Sony people should spend more time developing logic chips, and not worrying about mod chips.
libertarianswag.com
So Sony doesn't care if people play copied games, but they do care if people are playing imports. Boy is our world messed up.
-Vic
SONY never went after MOD chip makers because there was no legal precendent. With the DMCA and the broad enforcement and wide interpretation of it's laws, SONY probably feels - make that probably does - have a clear victory in this case. But this is just another case of a major corporation essentially sueing the people by going after a few companies. Armed with the DMCA and the legal standard that legitimate use doesn't matter, large, entrenched companies can continue to use the DMCA to prevent other, legitimate, businesses from eating their market share.
Not that it really matters - people will always make these mod chips and sell them, or instructions to make them, on the internet. Heck, even X-Box hacking is gaining steam against M$'s weak protections. The problem is companies want to control more than just their product - they want to control if you can buy it, use it, how you use it and for how long. Yeah, right - I'm going to sit back and pay money so some other company can control a small part of my life.
If we've learned nothing from history, you only own what you can control, and you can't control people or technology... for long.
RC
I'm sorry for this comment. I made it in hot blood.
MODIFICATION:
Corporations do this kind of VERY stoopid thing all the time, and it drives me insane. I happen to think that they should allow the PS2 to be modified, because then sales would go up. They are only hurting themselves.
Everything is mainstream now.
Lest we all forget, the fact that copied Dreamcast games could be played WITHOUT a modchip (and that they were easy to copy in the first place) more or less killed this console... I think Sony is just rightfully looking after their best interests.
- The only reason I would buy, or make, a chip would be to play legally-bought imports, because:
- Some PAL conversions suck.
- Some games never even get released here! (ala Tsugunai)
- The ever-present release/conversion delay.
- Prices
- I wouldn't, but with this in mind, and a chip installed, other people might be more tempted to buy illegal or counterfeit copies, since they already have the chip to run them.
- (So) buy basically forcing me to chip my playstation to play legally[1] imported games, they may well have increased piracy... Ooops.
[1] My PS2 is legally bought, my imports (would be) legally bought, all my games and peripherals are Sony branded, yet I cannot play games I legally buy. The same stupid situation exists with DVDs.I'm pretty mad about this too, Microsoft doing all of that and all. Every game published by Microsoft is one game that will NEVER be ported to Linux. We coulda had Age of Empires II for Linux by now... :(
P.S. You almost make insightful comments, more than I can say for some registered users. Consider registering!
Everything is mainstream now.
I know the EFF can't come to everybodies rescue, but this looks like it could be an interesting case! Please EFF hear our cries.
HEHE its like crying to superman, he always comes to the rescue, especially when your a bad guy trying to play a trick on em.
According to TheRegister article, its actually the opposite that has Sony "annoyed".
... free users to use titles from any zone" in regards to playing games and DVDs region free. It continues on to say "However, the chips can also be used to play copied and pirated titles on the console, which is where Sony starts to get annoyed;...".
The article says "Mod-chips
It really doesn't take much to proof read an article quickly before posting a story to make sure everything lines up...
Tsugunai has been released here. Here is a review of it at The GIA.
Note to self: No more arguing with the faithful.
The games will be ported to Windows eventually, with or without permission, and then you can use WINE to play them on linux.
While these uses may be illegitimate this was not a concern for Sony. Sony only had an issue when these chips allowed users to play pirated game by allowing the consols to read CD-R's in addition import games.
I stole this Sig
then sales would go up
This would be a bad thing for Sony - if PS2 sales go up without an increase on games, Sony loses money.
Reboot macht Frei.
I will not buy a PS2 until I can backup my game collection.
..
oh pls
keep it simple.
I suspect you're referring to 17 USC 602 (a), which reads as follows:
But one important thing you've neglected to do is to read further. 17 USC 602 (a) (2) goes on to say:There's also exemptions for government use, scholarly, religion, and educational purposes, and for libraries. You should read all of 17 USC 602 (a) before jumping to conclusions about whether it's legal to import games for personal use or to play lawfully imported games.
Sony cares because 99.999999999999% of mod chips are being bought and used for PIRACY. This hurts their bottom line greatly because console makers lose $ when they sell their consoles. They only make it back if you purchase legitimate games.
eTrade SUCKS
Apparently, this NEO4 chip allows regionless DVD playback and disables MACROVISION, something that I value far more than the CDR game playback.
"All mankind is at the mercy of a handful of neurotics". - Norman Douglas
Just like the medical marijuana movement, there is a great deal of intellectual dishonesty in the gaming community surrounding mod chips. The illegitimate uses of these paticular chips far outweight the semi-legit ones.
Backups are a red herring - it is technically infeasable right now to back up PS2 games, and may remain so well into the future. I don't think PS2s will even read DVD-Rs... The only possible use for the 'backup' features is software piracy. To say otherwise is to brand yourself an idiot. Be honest here people, you just want to play 'backups' downloaded off IRC. Stop whining about this and just admit you want to steal games, and accept that Sony is going to try and do something about it!
In a perfect world, there would be exactly two functions performed by a PS2 mod chip - DVD region code breaking and PS2 region breaking. Region coding is the biggest bunch of bullshit that the world has ever seen, and circumventing it doesn't even result in lost revenues.
There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.
Dreamcast (which has some outstanding hacks available, and is cheaper then dirt right now!) or the Game Cube, which slaughters the XBox's graphics.
The article write up is a bit demonising and misleading IMHO. These new modchips are the first ones that allow users to play import games, but they're also the first ones which allow you to play copied DVDs (previous ones could only do CD-Rs). Now, I can't be bothered to get into the copyright debate, but it does annoy me that both the mod-makers and the console designers lump import games and copied games together. I don't give a crap about copied games, but the console makers shouldn't make a fuss about their region-locking. If they aren't delivering what I want, and I can get it from the US or Japan then that's their problem. In fact, I'm half-suprised that they can legally attempt all this region-locking stuff.
I will not buy a PS2 until I can backup my game collection.
Yeah, right.
What Sony need to do is make it absolutely clear that a PS2 disc is only a carrier for some intellectual property you have licenced. If the disc gets borked, take it to a shop and ask for another - and they will swap it without even blinking. Of course, we have just about no chance of this actually happening, but it would get around a whole bunch of "backup" issues.
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
IIRC, Square is still on board with Sony, exclusively. IIRC, Konami, Capcom, and most developers are making games for all three major consoles right now as well.
I think Sony is more pissed that people are pirating games.
"You spoony bard!" -Tellah
Insightful? It's an insight into the mind of someone who knows exactly nothing about what a PS2 modchip is/does.
You really should read actsofgord, which explains this nicely. There are two sorts of modchips: the ones that defeat copy protection, and the ones that defeat region protection. The latter are what we're talking about; the only use for them is playing legitimate, bought-and-paid-for games from different regions.
There is only one reason to have region "protection", and that's simply control. The only thing I can see this gains for companies is by letting them use this artificial monopoly to increase the price in certain regions. Technological controls keep them from importing. This is not a copyright-protection issue. It is only an issue of control and artificial price inflation.
I have a PS2 (not to mention lots of peripherals and 15 legitimate games I paid full price for, not to mention the load of legitimate PSX games I also bought), and I love the games, and I'd love to import stuff. Sony's wanting to rip another $400+ out of me for an import PS2 is just pure greed. They lost against Bleem, I hope they lose here, too.
I love the games. I want the games. But this is ridiculous.
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
The comment about was not meant to be taken literally; it was something called "editorializing", in which someone reporting a bit of news to another will insert something which is called "opinion"-- the stating of something which is not meant to be taken as pure fact, but rather an unprovable but hopefully well-grounded belief held by the writer. The writer of the slashdot blurb probably assumed that people reading what he wrote would read the article, and thus notice the article does not say the dvd/import mods are the part which makes sony upset, and thus deduce that the statement by the slashdot blurb submitter was the aforementioned "editorializing".
The "opinion" the slashdot blurb writer was most likely trying to express was this: Despite Sony's claims that piracy facilitation is the reason that they wish to stamp out sony modchip authors, video game piracy has little or no real impact ; and that, in fact, Sony is merely using the piracy issue as a diversion to unethically stamp out the unrelated, legal under fair use, and perfectly legitimate field of expanding a piece of electronics you have bought to (for example) play a legally purchased imported work, so that Sony can maintain their market control and political power, and demonstrate that their collective cock is bigger than that of the consumers'.
Does this make sense to you? If not, i will try to explain further.
Remember: Outlaw electronics with morally dubious consequences, and only outlaws will have EEPROMS.
You don't need a license to use software. You only need to have lawfully aquired a copy of that software. According to 17 USC 602 (a) (2), copies imported for personal use have been lawfully aquired. Also, see 17 USC 117 (a) (1), which specificly makes copies made as "an essential step in the utilization of the computer program" non-infringing. 17 USC 117 (a) (1)'s exemption certainly includes copies made while loading the program into memory, a popular excuse used by those who argue that a license is required in order to use software. Your arguments that either obtaining or using imported copies is infringing or unlawful are at best unconvincing.
The text of 17 USC 602 (a) (2) follows:
There's also exemptions for government use, scholarly, religion, and educational purposes, and for libraries. You should read all of 17 USC 602 (a) before jumping to conclusions about whether it's legal to import games for personal use or to play lawfully imported games.
I will not buy a PS2 until I can backup my game collection.
I believe that comment, I was born yesterday.
---
... the problem with the entertainment industry is that it is often tied to disposable income (if you don't watch TV you're not going to die regardless of what kids think). As such there is serious competition for our attention ranging from walking in parks (NY muggings excepted) to window-shopping in malls (a legitimate form of entertainment as shown by theme parks taking this philosophy to extremes such as Disney). Groups such as Sony have to come up with ever more inventive ways of parting you from your money ... err catching your attention and delivering amusement. This problem is exasperated by the fact that different countries value leisure differently. A third world sweat shop worker just simply has better things to buy (like education for their kids) than light entertainment. Hence global companies cannot charge the same price for the same item (CD) in different countries. Hence their desire for market segmentation tools such as multi-zoning.
... up to the point of lobbying legislators (cough*DCMA*cough) to exterminate what they view as inappropriate economic conduct.
Now is this considered fair? Places like Australia don't believe so as their competitive watchdog recently ruled that multi-zoing was anti-competitive as it hindered parallel importing (is source CD from other countries). On the other hand companies argue that it is like passenger classes in planes, first-class still get there at the same time as cattle-class but pay significantly more. Many companies (esp software/pharmaceuticals) use the high prices of their products in 1st world countries to cross-subsidise less developed markets. Given the increasing connectivity of world trade this is becoming increasingly difficult.
Computers with digital rights management (aka service variability) is one mechanism to enforce this market segmentation, especially if it can be enforced through fixed/controlled end-points (cough*Xbox*cough). This is why companies hate mod-chipers and related products (satellite decodes, overclockers, etc) as it allows individuals to exploit the artificial price differential between 1st/3rd world pricing strategies. The end-result is a technological arms race (embedded ids, self-destruct, registrations, etc) in order to maintain this separation between high-margin customers and more marginal users. A person collecting warez for bragging rights is *NOT* willing to pay the same recommended price as someone looking to kill time by renting an evening game.
Anyone who thinks a company is going to destroy their global economic model just to please a small (but vocal) group of (from their point of view) "parasites". A large enough business entity can tolerate a small percentage of free-riders but is likely to come down hard on any systematic or organised threats to their business provided they can distance themselves from any media-fallout (cough*Adobe*cough)
Fortunately the free market (e.g. open source movement) has a little influence in moderating the extreme behaviour of the more pervasive global corporations.
LL
If Sony started selling a $200 more expensive version of the PS2 with the mod chip already installed, I'd be willing to bet they would make more money on game consoles than from games.
You're absolutely right. That's because they would sell exacly 1 copy of each game published, for the very brief period before developers abandoned PS2 developement altogether.
What happens when Sony goes out of business (unlikely, I admit) as other software companies that used this as an excuse for intrusive copy protection have? (For instance, I have several copy protected Commodore and Atari 8-bit games that come with generous offers to replace the protected diskette for a $5.00 handling fee.)
What happens to the hapless user that scratches a CD in ten years, long after Sony has retired this service? The license has no expiration, right?
Placing the word backup in quotes as you did looks like it is meant to indirectly accuse anyone who makes backup copies of programs or games they have purchased of copyright infringement. While you may see no legitimate reason for a backup copy, others who worry more may. Sure, certain individuals may use such technology to avoid paying for games, but that's just a cost of doing business in the real world, unfortunately for Sony.
I'd find it rather likely (and amusing to boot) that someone will extend WINE (or more specifically, the DirectX implementation) to support the X-box API, and then we may see X-box games on Linux before Windows. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't this just entail handling the copyright protection API and finishing DirectX support?)
Alas, this probably won't get seen (not karma whoring, would just like replies...)
Cartels that artificially control prices and distribution may be legal, but many people, myself included, believe that they are wrong. Slavery, prohibition, and preventing women from voting were all legal once in the U.S.
And there are plenty of instances where "copy protection" causes problems for legitimate users. I've had many rented VHS tapes with Macrovision where the tracking was screwed up. Some of my games require me to have a CD in the drive even though I installed everything on the hard disk. I do not copy these things. I paid for them legitimately.
-Kevin
I mean, geez, if Sony doesn't want me hacking up it's [sic] boxes, why did it _sell_ them to me? Come on Sony, ligthen up!
Now that's rich. "I mean, geez, if Pac Bell doesn't want me phone phreaking, why did they _sell_ me a phone line? Come on, Pac Bell, lighten up!".
FYI: Sony doesn't make money off the boxes, they make money off sold games.
Modchip = #1 way to enable piracy for the masses = immense loss of profit for Sony AND game developers AND publishers. And since I'm in that group, I can say that Sony, by trying to get rid of modchips, promotes security for my very job.
Okay, I haven't bought a PS2 yet. I'm waiting for a price drop before I do. So does this mean in the interest of playing old PSX backups, I need to buy a modchip now? Or are the modchips the articles referring to (reading them didn't clear this up any) only related to imports and imported DVDs? Call me crazy, but I don't know Eastern languages very well, so getting games and movies that only speak those aren't any fun. If those are the only modchips going away in the very near future, then that's fine with me (and maybe only me).
It doesn't make any sense. Modchips help sales of the psx and ps2..why kill them? I doubt sony is under any legal obligation to make sure that the hardware they SELL to people is being used for legitamte purposes (ie. for playing properly-regioned DVDs). shouldn't it be the responsibility of the movie makers to go after these dvd playing chips?
Bzzt. There's no law that prevents you from importing software that is otherwise legal.
Except the EULA printed on the back of the box: "Licensed for use only with products bearing the PlayStation logo and [NTSC|U/C] designation." Any other use violates the patents on the PlayStation hardware.
even if they are subject to licenses, which is certainly fairly doubtful
The console licenses are more explicit than PC software EULAs, as the terms for consoles and games are printed right on the back of the package, next to the UPC symbol, as opposed to being hidden inside the shrinkwrapped box like PC software licenses.
the validity of the licenses themselves are in doubt
Even that doesn't prevent Sony from abusing the legal system, filing frivolous lawsuits against small businesses in order to run up the small businesses' legal bills. The legal system is broken, and Congress has shown itself to be too bought to fix it.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Sony makes a profit on the PS2 hardware.
I don't really care about import games, and I'm not particularly interested in pirating domestic releases, either. Let's face it, there aren't enough good games to make piracy worthwhile... I'll just buy the handful that don't suck. But I'm interested in a mod chip so that I can play burned copies of the games I've licensed and leave the originals in their cases. If Sony would happily replace any disc that got damaged (for a nominal replication fee, even), my interest in a mod chip would be nil.
Of course, Sony isn't exactly "customer-oriented", so we'll probably never be so lucky. I think the PS2 is going to be my last Sony electronics purchase... the DVD issues (with absolutely no information on their new drivers, other than that you can buy them with a $20 remote) have pretty much sealed that for me.
You're assuming the user is in the U.S. In most of the world it's perfectly legal.
Two words: Dmitry Sklyarov.
(Yes, I know the Feds let him off in exchange for his testimony.)Will I retire or break 10K?
You don't need a license to use software.
However, you do need a license to use hardware because the exclusive privilege granted by patent law covers "make, use, or sell." The PlayStation hardware is patented out the wazoo, and Sony licenses those patents on conditions that are spelled out on the back of the PlayStation's box: "Licensed for use only with software bearing the PlayStation logo and the [NTSC|U/C] designation."
Will I retire or break 10K?
What happens when Sony goes out of business (unlikely, I admit) as other software companies that used this as an excuse for intrusive copy protection have?
Hmmm, good point. I could blabber something about escrow, but it'd be crap because there is no way Sony are putting 100,000 GT3 disks in a warehouse in case somebody like me scratches one. BTW - have you actually seen a GT3 disk? They have this messed up "PS" logo watermark on the read side. The read side. God, that'd be a bastard to pirate properly.
Placing the word backup in quotes as you did looks like it is meant to indirectly accuse anyone who makes backup copies of programs or games they have purchased of copyright infringement.
Guilty, but that's what the vast majority of modchips are used for, unfortunately. As an aside, I'm not exactly snow white when it comes to this issue myself. I have pirated (PC) games in the past - they generally get installed, cracked, and played for up to (generally) 24 hours. Anything that keeps my attention for longer than that warrants going out and buying a copy. For the last couple of years that's been Quake3 and UT, everything else has been chucked, forgotten, and not missed in the slightest.
For the PS2 this problem is solved with video game rental from your local video shop. SSX - buy. Ridge Racer - don't buy.
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
Dreamcast (which has some outstanding hacks available, and is cheaper then dirt right now!)
One or the other is true, not both. The "outstanding hacks" require one of the older Dreamcast units because units manufactured on or after September 2000 cannot read the CD-R media on which those hacks reside. Most of the $50 units you find were manufactured on or after September 2000.
Will I retire or break 10K?
...especially if it is HARDWARE!
If a "mod chip" is all that it takes to play "pirated" software, maybe they need to take a look at their copy protection scheme...
My question is whether the "regional issue" involves pricing or something else? Are titles selling at a price commensurate with the local economy? Would Sony LOSE money if these titles were imported through the "grey market" ? Or are they trying to protect the distribution infrastructure of various countries?
Imagine the implications if a company like Sony used virtually NO copyprotection and sold an item at a reasonable price... might not the sheer increase in volume of sales off-set the marginal effects of piracy? People have a finite amount of money they spend on games, music, movies, whatever... and the price merely determines HOW MANY of these items you actually purchase (for a relatively honest consumer). The same companies receive the same amounts of money (it's not like there are that many companies involved).
Whenever people talk about how much money is LOST to piracy, I always am left thinking that the money was never there in the first place- that those "pirates" would never have purchased the item anyway... so protection does more to piss off honest consumers than to increase revenue. How many ordinary people actually take the time or effort to mod a console (or overclock a PC) ?
Finally, if this regional protection issue gets out of hand, we'll all be purchasing items that will eventually only play on one machine.
Those that suggest you "dance like no one is watching" really want to see you make a complete fool of yourself.
Slavery, prohibition, and preventing women from voting were all legal once in the U.S.
Prohibition is still the law. Even though Prohibition no longer covers ethanol (21st amendment), the Commerce Clause lets Congress declare a War on Some Drugs.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Please cite the section of law that prohibits playing media from places where you do not live.
United States patent law, and the contract on the outside of every PlayStation console's box.
Unless the mod chip makers entered into a contract with Sony for some reason
No, the end users did. Consoles say "Licensed for use only with software marked PlayStation [NTSC|U/C]" on the back. This is outside the box and is more likely to be enforceable than shrinkwrap EULAs that aren't visible until you've opened the box.
Of course, Sony has deeper pockets, so there is no law stopping them from just suing the mod chip makers out of business with nuisance lawsuits.
Congress has power to regulate the courts so as to stop frivolous lawsuits, but unfortunately, Congress is too bought to consider such a thing.
Will I retire or break 10K?
It's not always the case that a modchip HAS to allow playing pirated games. For example, http://www.techtrix.co.uk/addtocart.asp?prod=13 is a modchip wchich lets you play original imports, but will disallow CD-R or CD-RWs, thus addressing Sony's concern that such chips promote piracy.
If more companies made such chips, perhaps Sony might see them in another light than just a "piracy" enabler.
There's 10 types of people in this world, those who understand binary and those who don't.
The only problem with that statement is that the PS2 is still the best selling console.
and I don't give a f**k who thinks they do.. NO ONE can tell ME where I can use MY CD or DVD! If I happen to live in London for a year and buy a dozen movies there WHAT RIGHT does the movie industry have to tell me that I CAN'T play the movies I BOUGHT when I move back HOME! THEY HAVE NO FUCKING RIGHT!!!! period.....
Newer Dreamcasts can read CD-Rs. They just need to be burned differently than the older methods(due to changes in the BIOS).
The only existing Dreamcasts that refuse to read any sort of CD-Rs, are the limited edition Sakura Taisen and Hello Kitty units produced in Japan.
No American DCs will flat-out refuse a correctly burned CD-R.
(It does seem that extensive playing of CD-R games does tend to shorten the life of the GD-drive significantly, however).
--
The US likes to bandy about its ideals of freedom. They're right there in our Constitution. Its part of the propoganda that politicians use to rally the populas during times of crisis and drives our military volunteers to shoulder great risks. It is part of our history. It is the foundation of our identity as a nation.
And it is slowly being chipped away by special interest groups; in this case big business.
One has to wonder how other nations and their governments fare under this onslaught. Especially if "freedom" is not as prominent in the nation's identity.
In this example, it seems that the UK may not be doing any better than the US.
Well, they're not losing money on my importing a game, unles they're artificially increasing the price in different countries. This might count as a monopolistic practice, so they're stealing from us.
Actually, I think with the region controls they're shooting themselves in the foot. A chip that circumvents a restriction on legal use is more likely to be considered legal than one that has only illegal uses.
the DVD issues (with absolutely no information on their new drivers, other than that you can buy them with a $20 remote) have pretty much sealed that for me.
Are you getting something where the sound and video drop out of sync?
Dave
I write a blog now, you should be afraid.
A modchip is usually a piece of hardware that contains the software to bypass the copy protection. PROM modchips are typically used because the people who make them can make a whole batch of programmable chips, and if the mod is rendered useless, they can update the software and still make modchips out of the PROMs they've got.
Old modchips worked by flashing the Playstation BIOS, or replacing parts of it on boot, so that when the game would call on the copyprotection, the new BIOS would say that every disc in the unit was good.
PS2 is different, though. See, it's meant to be flashed every single time you put in a new disc. And since the code in memory can change every time a new game comes out, it's a bit difficult to make a BIOS modchip. You need something different.
The quick and dirty solution people came up with for the PS2 is to intercept the checks as they're heading to whereever, and change the signals so that they're the proper result. Thing is, each game can do this differently. Due to the nature of the PS2, the checks could be called from a vector unit, from the memory card processor.. or even the reader unit itself. And the modchip maker has to add a wire for each signal they need to intercept.
Nowadays, PS2 modchips require 20+ connections (probably even more by now) just to cover all of the different signals that can be sent during a check. And each check is cumulative; you have to keep the old checks while adding for new ones. This is kinda ridiculous, since this introduces modchip bloat.. a new modchip defeat comes out, and they have to add more connections... it can really suck for people if they need a new modchip every time a new game comes out.
Enter the Messiah. You wire it into the DVD-ROM reading hardware, rather than throughout the rest of the unit. Since all checks have to go through the DVD system anyways, this is only logical.. thing is, Sony made it really tough to figure it out. Which is why it took them over two years to get the chip made.
Without a link to NEO4, I can't say whether or not they've gone the same route, but if they have, these two chips could spell the end for Sony's PS2. Since all PS2 consoles use the same BIOS, flashed every time a game starts, Sony can't easily change the hardware design of any newer units coming onto the market. So if this modchip is undetectable, and it does all the things they're saying it does in hardware, this could be checkmate.
I for one think that it was definitely right to go after NEO4. Despite being hyped and anticipated by some PS2 people, it is basically a warez mod. At first I was interested in it, but later I found out that it doesn't work with original PS2-imports, only PS2-warez. PSX-imports work though, but NEO4 would be insanely expensive for that feature alone. If modchip makers don't want to get Sony after them they should make mods that work with original games only. I've seen NEO4 being advertised as the chip that makes all the warez possible, sheesh.
I'll probably get a PS2 next year, and I want to be able to play both PS2 and PSX imports with it. I still haven't seen a mod that would do both, and NEO4 isn't one either. I have several imported PSX games that haven't been released in Europe at all (like some of the best PSX titles including Chrono Cross and Xenogears), and those are the only reason I have mod for my PSX. Sooner or later there will be similar titles for PS2.
As for DVD regions, Region X package for PS2 is both cheap and well-working. I don't see why anyone would want an awkward modchip that costs several times more just to watch import-DVDs.
Linked story
It's some crazy story with no evidence to support its claims. I'll continue thinking Sony sells the hardware at a loss, thanks.
Evidence (of a circumstantial nature) coming right up!
Based on this, I would expect that Sony would be pushing harder for bundles if they were, in fact, taking a loss per unit. Since they're not, I'm going to have to disagree.
Reboot macht Frei.
They're probably more worried about the circumvention of DVD region coding.. if they get known to be distributing a multi-region DVD player, the DVDCCA could be down on their asses and take away their DVD decryption license. They probably already had trouble given the backdoor in the DVD software in the first Japanese revision of the PS2.
Sony do seem to have a bee in their bonnets about game imports.. which is a shame, because customers in Europe tend to have a bee in *their* bonnets about games being slowed down to run in PAL. Sony complained that Tekken 3 didn't sell well in Europe and blamed imports. They might have done better to blame the fact that the European Tekken 3 was slow as a lame dog because of the PAL conversion. What's even stupider is that the DC established that a PAL60-capable console is entirely feasible (and it's no extra work to implement, because the binary for the PAL60 version is usually just the same as the USA one), but Sony didn't copy it.
Also, somebody who should know has told me that the protection system on the Playstation 2 actually makes it harder to make an import-playing chip than a pirate-playing chip. The real protection on the PS2 is the DVD format and nothing has gotten around that yet.
Oh, and if you really want to protest, don't refuse to buy a PS2 - buy one and SMASH IT. Sony actually _loses_ money on selling PS2s which it hopes to pay back with games. If you buy one and smash it, they lose their subsidy, AND someone else can't buy that one. This could be especially good near to Christmas.. (actually, I'm surprised console firms don't do this to each other, but they'd probably get sued)
yeah, $20. Or you can get a cord extension ($8) and not worry about losing the remote.
Reboot macht Frei.
That's what it will boil down too. The old PS1 modchips allow you to play imported "out of region" games and play them. I have several myself (Fire Pro RULES!). Guarantee it's the DVD thing.
Of course, not sure why you mention the RIAA. Why the fuck would the RIAA give a shit about DVD's?
FYI, there is an interesting write-up on the early years of modchips at http://www.oldcrows.net/mcc.html
Why is that so hard to believe? Maybe He is wavering between and PS2 and another console, and the fact that he can't back up his games is what makes the decision for him.
I don't buy DVD's because of this whole DMCA fiasco, do you find that hard to believe????
Sorry I don't think he's god or anything.
The only thing Sony is doing is guaranteeing that hobbyists who want to do fun projects (like hack Linux, etc) will have a harder time doing so. A true pirate wouldn't need the ability to read CD-Rs because he has the pressing equipment to make CDs that appear to be "originals".
Who did what now?
Here it is: These mod chips have been around for a while. Just like pirating has been around for a while. When the economy is booming, and these companies are making phat money, they don't care so much about the pirating, 'cause they're still making money. But when the economy takes a downturn, they, in desperation, unleash the lawyers to try and stop any losses they might be incurring from the pirating (or the potential of pirating). When the economy pics back up, I think they'll do more looking the other way, so to speak.
Frankly, I always liked Sony. I never really heard anything bad about them in the news, and they put out a really good product. But if they're going to start pulling stunts like this, they might receive the bane of people who don't like corporate control so much (ala Microsoft). The only people that can make me stop liking them as a company, is them, really. And I'm sure others share the same sentiment. So I'd be careful if I was them.
No sig for you.
Then maybe you should also be taking an imported PS2.
I'm sure Sony and the Law doesn't have a problem with you buying two or three different (with respective region encoding) PS2's to play your games.
So yes, according the above legal sections, you can 'import' copyrighted material for personal use, but this doesn't explicitly 'undo' other laws (such as licensing a regional DVD for compatible regional DVD players) and allow the viewing of said material on unauthorized players.
Trolls throughout history:
Jonathan Swift
Simply put, defeating DVD region coding is not illegal (at least in the US - the UK is a different matter). I know, I author DVDs for a living. (And, no, not on a Mac.... I've been doing it longer than that.)
The DMCA covers only encryption mechanisms and copy protection schemes. Region coding is neither. It does not encrypt the contents of the DVD, nor does it hinder copying DVDs.
Which is why the pockets of sane people (like AUS) are taking legal actions against the practice. It is designed to create a false scarcity and raise prices (and profits).
I'd rather have someone respond than be modded up.
You're CRAZY!
The US government has today outlawed soldering irons, stating that they violate the DMCA in that they allow youngsters to MOD playstations and other games consoles. Civil liberties groups are outraged by the ruling and the American Soldering Association has said they will take this to the high court. Other groups have suggested alternatives, such as allowing soldering irons, but banning solder or visa-versa.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
I'm mad at Sony for not telling me whether their new drivers address such issues, and mad at Fox for selling me a transparent DVD (which I vaguely suspect may be the problem).
I'm working on a PS2/DVD compatibility database, and may or may not finish it. If I do, I'll put it online with a decent interface so people can update it with their own findings... the couple of lists I've found online are manually compiled and infrequently updated.
Pac Bell didn't sell you a phone line.
Don't believe me? Stop paying the bill. You don't own it.
Now that's rich. "I mean, geez, if Pac Bell doesn't want me phone phreaking, why did they _sell_ me a phone line? Come on, Pac Bell, lighten up!".
They don't sell you a phone line, they put a wire to your house so that they can sell you service. You can actualy buy a phone line of your own (a direct hardwired connection from one place to another) and do whatever you want with it. It generaly costs a lot of money.
If sony didn't want people dicking with their hardware, they could have leased it.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
God damnit, where the fuck do people get these idiotic ideas!? Import games illegal? out of region DVDs illegal? WTF?! Despite what you might think, and what I'm sure the RIAA and MPAA would love, the law does not exist solely to increase corporate profits.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Look, I don't like the DMCA or whatever, but what I really can't stand are morons. As you clearly are. to wit, the poster said:
Sony is shutting down UK modchip distributors, and we have no such law here
Emphasis mine. Clearly, 'here' refers to the UK. The UK is not a part of the US. the DMCA is an American law. Therefore (making that last tenuous connection for you) Nothing he could ever do could fall "under" the DMCA. While England may have a similar law, he said they didn't. Brining up the DMCA does nothing aside from outing yourself as a complete fucking idiot.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Oh, and dismissing those inconvenienced by the region coding debacle as "fanboys of Japanese video games, scat films, bukakke movies, cartoons, etc." may be a trifle incorrect. Anything released by a non-US distribution house has the same region coding problem, and there's more film industries out there than you might realise.
But no, if all you get is from your own region (whatever that is), you *won't* realise the existence of the outside world. And is that ignorance a good thing, do you think?
the majority of people using modchips etc for region free dvd playback, importing games, are people in europe?
pal problems, big tax hikes, even high import tax charges (which normally turn out cheaper than buying retail at home anyway).
has anyone thought of releasing a system less than 6->9 months in europe after the US/JAP releases?
if we could get our hands on games now, we would, we cant, so we find a way to get our games now (without handling...)
Disclaimer: I am not trying to flame, just pointing out the blatantly obvious misunderstanding and overuse of question marks.
Here is my point, a bit clearer this time: I do not doubt the fact that he will not be buying a ps2 because he can't back up his games. What I don't believe is that his actual intention for wanting a mod chip is actually backing up his games. Anyone who claims that they won't be buying ps2 due to the lack of a backup mechanism is lying, and this is painfully obvious. I have a ton of ps1 games and I didn't have a single one go bad before.
In short: At least admit that the real reason anyone wouldn't buy a ps2 (because of the copy protection) would be because they can't *copy games*, not because they can't take backups.
---
More actsofgord links. People should read this site---in addition to being funny and evil, he really knows what he's talking about. In this case, console manufacturers typically do not lose money on each console. This includes Sony and Nintendo right now. Only Microsoft is losing money on each XBOX. According to his calculations, Sony is making a pretty penny, too. If you really want to hurt them, buy an XBOX (but do you really want to help MS?), or a GameCube (same applies to Nintendo, really).
They're pretty much all evil, I guess. Maybe I'll visit the bookstore. ;-)
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
Regarding [1], I have a VHS VCR I legally bought, some older BetaMax tapes that I legally bought, all my videos and peripherals are branded, yet I still cannot play BetaMax videos I legally buy on my player. What gives?
This is exactly the sort of thing that shouldn't happen in a free globalized market. Let's hope the WTO has some teeth to it and charges Sony and other companies with illegal trade practices.
Actualy the stockholder report linked indicates that sony makes a profit on each playstation sold because of the average number of games sold with it. If that number were to go below a certan level, then sony would no longer be making a profit.
Anyway, gord is a zelotous moron. Please don't take anything off his website as 'fact'
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
If you don't like it or if you don't like the company, don't buy it. That goes for PS2 as much as Xbox. Technically and financially, I think you are better off with a PC anyway: better picture, more expandability, upgradability, etc.
See it from another direction:
I live in Region 2 but I have a lot of Region 1 DVDs because a) I'm english-speaking but live in a non-English-speaking country; and b) it's tough to get to the cinema when you've got 3 small kids. Anyhow, my region-free DVD player plays 'em all, so I'm happy.
But, I'd quite like a 2nd DVD player for the bedroom, and I'd quite like a PS2 too. Can't really put a good case to the Significant Other for buying both but if the PS2 played ALL my DVDs (rather than just the region 2 subset) then I'd be buying one right away.
However, Sony don't want me doing that. Kinda dumb of Sony I reckon, but I guess they know best.
Regards, Ralph.
If Sony started selling a $200 more expensive version of the PS2 with the mod chip already installed, I'd be willing to bet they would make more money on game consoles than from games.
I will not buy a PS2 until I can backup my game collection.
And I'm sure game developers would just love working with the system. You'd need to add another $500 subsidy to all the dev houses for lost revenue if you wanted them to continue developing. Now you're out $700. vs $20 for a mod chip.
I will not buy a PS2 until I can backup my game collection.
I'm sure sony cares, I really do (btw, those disks have warrantees)
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Well, to get a system from outside your home country, the importers usually put a massive mark up on them. Then there is the power conversion you have to do to make it work, then get the TV signal converter (NTSC -> PAL for the UK, or even worse, SECAM in france).
The games would have a smaller mark-up, or might not even be available in PAL versions (or then badly translated versions, rnning slower, with borders). It's just easier to get the home system, and then imported games. Sometimes it could be aesthetic - i remember the SNES/super famicom - the Japanese and European versions were the lovely curved versions, while the US one was a butt-ugly cube thingy - what was up with that?
(N.B. in no way am i trying to justify "backing-up" or "importing" games if you know what i mean. It's just that unless you are a diehard gamer with loads of ca$h, its easier getting the native system with imported games, rather than the imported system.
there is no way Sony are putting 100,000 GT3 disks in a warehouse in case somebody like me scratches one.
Why not, it's not like each disk costs them very much.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Those of you who try to make Sony seem like the bad guy here. Do you have any idea what (money, time, effort, blood, sweat, tears) it takes to bring a game to market? Do you have any idea how much R&D when into designing just the console itself? I am not saying I have never pirated a piece of software BUT I am saying companies have every right to take steps to ensure I can't. A video game console is sold to you as a device which is meant to play games (or movies) from within your "region" and in your country. There is never any promise made outside those 2 things. Sony, Nintendo, Microsoft has no farking obligation outside of making sure it does anything BUT those 2 things. Don't give me that: "but I want to backup MY games" OR "I want to run linux on it" OR "I want to play xxx game from Japan" OR "It mine and they have no right...." I am sorry folks. If you want the PRIVILEGE of playing video games you cannot complain about what Sony is doing here. Sony has every right to protect their (and their developers) interests. What do you propose they do? Ignore the problem because 1% of PS2 owners were only going to use modchips for playing imports? (And I am being geneours as the number is likely much less than 1%) The absolute truth is that for every 1 person that wants a modchip for reasons that don't hurt Sony (like playing original import games) there are 249 that use it just to copy games that they feel are "owed" to them. But seriously, some of you around here have a seriously farked up way of thinking. To have the BALLS to **complain** when someone tries to protect their property. Jason
Ever feel like you are driving the getaway car?
And the problem with this is?.... They have every right to charge whatever they want in whatever region they want. You have every right not to buy from them. Buying from them is a convenience, not a necessity.
Seems more like nerd complaining than an actual rights issue.
This may have been posted before, but anyways. SCEA is Sony Computer Entertainment of America. They do not get a cut of anything sold by sony in Japan. Region encoding is an attempt to ensure the bottom line for the local division. True it is ridiculous because it prevents consumers here from seeing lots of good games only released elsewhere. Those who would import games to begin with are a minority, a vocal minority but a minority nontheless, as has been proven many times before big business doesnt care about minorities, and only about $. I believe a large part of the reasoning on the part of SCEA is that because the FBI and its raids last weekend have alot of people scared it can take advantage of the situation and force its will upon those that could possibly undermine its bottom line.
Surely (standalone) DVD drives would be much more successful if had an analog 15-pin VGA connector, too. (a pass-through to plug a PC into and automatic switching would be nice).
For the purposes of qualifying for the exemption in 17 USC 602 (a) (2), the distinction is whether you've imported the copy for your own personal use or imported a whole bunch for resale. How you actually import the copy, whether it be travelling to to the foriegn place and carrying it back or having someone there ship it to you, is unimportant.
Several years ago I had a roommate in college who was *very* into gaming on the original Playstation. He even had his own review site on the WWW back before the gaming craze when everyone put one up. He specifically bought one of the early Playstations that came out with no region restrictions, so that he wouldn't need to install a modchip to play import titles.
And boy, did he play import titles. He spent most of his disposable income importing games from Japan 6 months before they'd hit the U.S., if ever. Cost an arm and a leg, but he was willing to do it to get the games early and often.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Sony exerts region controls through artificial means, sometimes never distributing a title in a given region at all. Why should we allow companies to arbitrarily cut up the world into marketing regions, so that they can maximize profits through regional licensing deals, at the detriment of the public at large? They shouldn't. In the U.S. at least, copyrights and patents are instituted not as a fundamental right of property ownership but rather to improve the public good through furthering the "useful arts and sciences." So, as far as I'm concerned companies shouldn't be allowed to divide the world up into marketing fiefdoms to the detriment of the public. There ought to be laws against that, and prior to corporations completely controlling Congress through big campaign contributions, there would have been.
Fortunately, the piracy-havens in the Far East are also the last bastions of the freedom to buy hardware that's region-free or to buy kits to make your hardware region-free. http://www.lik-sang.com is the place to go. Hong Kong may pirate everything, but they're no worse in the final analysis than the corporate assholes control what we can see, hear, and play in any given region. I think they're a necessary, counter-balancing force.
This is especially so when we reflect that Europeans are forbidden by their governments from ever seeing some American films and games in their entirety, and Americans are forbidden by corporate censorship from ever seeing some Japanese or European films and games. Why should a German be forbidden from seeing Nazi symbols and red blood in games like Return to Castle Wolfenstein? Why should an American not get to see the complete version of *The Professional*, which was actually a good movie while the American cut was dreck. (They finally released the full film in the U.S. many years later, as *Leon*, but I ordered it from France years before that.) And you'd never believe how many Japanese anime cartoons and games are censored and Bowdlerized before they ever reach the U.S. Oh, and Britain is utterly insane in the extent to which it censors American films for violence.
Technical controls to prevent you from seeing anything your government or corporate censors don't want you to see are being implemented. Sony, the DVD-CA and others are attempting to destroy ways around these controls. Just because current controls are minor and largely ineffectual means nothing. In the future they can be made (almost?) unbreakable and be applied to everything you see and hear, from games to movies to television to music to radio--maybe even to the Internet. Don't think that last is impossible--remember that the FBI has a plan to concentrate all Internet traffic at key points for monitoring purposes, so if the FBI can get the backbones to play along for this, who knows what might be orchestrated 10 years from now.
That's not a future I want to live in. That's a dystopia if ever there were one.
Chasing Amy
(We all chase Amy...)
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus
Well, no, they are not. More importantly, however, they are not free to limit arbitrarily how you trade in their products. I suspect you'll sooner or later see practices like Sony's be challenged under free trade agreements.
Seems more like nerd complaining than an actual rights issue.
You are quite right: it's not a "rights" issue. So why do you bring up the issue of "rights"?
If I happen to live in London for a year and buy a dozen movies there WHAT RIGHT does the movie industry have to tell me that I CAN'T play the movies I BOUGHT when I move back HOME!
They have every right; they've purchased those rights from your representatives in Congress. So shut your mouth, go buy all-new region-1 copies of movies all over again, take your soma, and be a happy little consumer.
-- Consumer of the United States of MicroSonyAOL
...actually they do, just not to Joe Public.
Registered developers can purchase TEST units that play all region PS2 games, and DVD-R's & CDR's burnt with the right software. Unfortunately they don't play PS1 games or DVDs, and I think they're a bit more than $500.
Of course, if they leased it, how many of us would pay for the privilege of using it? .Net strategy...
...Oh, wait a minute, that sound's like M$'s
Not to worry--most Britons don't see the light of day, either! =)
There should be a moratorium on the use of the apostrophe.
Max V.
NeXTMail/MIME Mail welcome
I think you're over-reacting a bit...
I live in the uk and recencly bought a us ps2 so I could play imported mgs2, so I would like to address your points.
Price of console: ok, so the ps2 cost me close to double what a uk one costs, but you are getting the ability to play region 1 dvds as well as us ps2 titles and us ps1 titles.
Power differences: there was no power problem- a converter was supplied with it- it's unobtrusive and works.
TV Signal diffs: there's no ntsc problem- show me a uk tv that doesn't handle ntsc as well as pal and I'll show you a very old tv...
Price of games: As for the mark-up on games, if you are willing to wait 2 weeks for them you can get them from dvdboxoffice.com (canada) at the same price they would be in the uk, (or cheaper) with free airmail delivery. Plis- duh! you still have to buy the games if you use a modchip!
Translation: ia non-issue as the main reason for uk players is to play us titles
I think one of the major advantages to owning a us ps2 in the uk as opposed to using a chip is that you know that no matter what sony does, you will still be able to play the games. Imagine importing a nice copy of some game you have been dying to get (like FFX) and then finding out that it has some new improved check in it and it doesn't work with your modchip...
graspee
I believe that a company which goes out of their way to hinder the distribution of accessories such as mod chips is not too bright in their approach to business. For example, when Apple computer basically destroyed Power Computing (only maker of Apple clones to date), they suffered a great loss financially and their user base was quite unhappy. Even though PC was using the Apple technology and platform for their hardware design, Apple still made money in that the user had to go through Apple for software and most peripherals. Sony makes millions of dollars every day off of their games, through licensing and through sales above overhead. They are ignorant to think that mod chips would be anything but helpful in terms of generating more revenue. People who own Playstation 2 are not going to stop buying their games; if anything, they'll buy more. Additionally, the percentage of users who go so far as to acquire a chip will always be a mere fraction of the total user base.
When sony sold the ps1 the only reason they sold so many more than the ps2 was copied games yes thats right. Copied games were cheap and easy to obtain and burn in their .bin format. This seems to be a bad marketing idea to me any thoughts?
> Incorrect. MGS II, GTA III, and a ton of other good games are all coming out for the PS2 exclusively.
That's not true. Grand Theft Auto 3 is coming out for X-Box.
I hear all these people complaining about a lack of justification for region-locking and the all-powerfulness of large companies such as Sony but they don't seem to realise that the region-locking is there to protect LOCAL companies/distributors, and most of these are small companies that couldn't compete if wholesale importers were able to step up to the plate, which they most definitely would if there was no lock-out!
There are also laws in each country regarding contents and ratings for consumer products - I'm sure people would be complaining the reverse if they'd heard that 100,000 teddy bears from "Gwonga-Longa" were imported *by-passing local laws* and discovered to have metal hooks that poke kids' eyes out.
You can't have it both ways I'm afraid.
Yes. I can't get Microsoft's Macrovision-protected CD-ROMS to read in my NEC NR 770-A CD/R drive. It was annoying not being able to run Flight Simulator, but not being able to read the (pay) Y2K update for SourceSafe was a real problem. I had a painful period in late 2000 when Microsoft support kept sending me SourceSafe update disks, none of which worked, until finally support sent me the new rev instead of the update disk, which did work.
I've reported this to Macrovision, and ask if they support that drive, but they consider the list of drives that are Macrovision-incompatible "proprietary".
Oops, my mouse slipped (it's the scroll wheel that did it I think) and I modded "HEY!!! If I BUY something it's MINE!!!!!" down by mistake. The user interface doesn't allow me to undo or mod back up, unfortunately.
Rocky J. Squirrel
Ah. Commenting in this forum undid my moderation. Just what I wanted. You'all don't need to undo my moderation.
Oh and by the way I agree, it's not possible that playing an out-of-region DVD or game is illegal. Can you imagine being arrested for that? After your cell mate tells you he's in prison for murder, you can say you're there for playing Senmue II.
Rocky J.
Rocky J.
this has been on the register for almost a week now, why are you just now bothering to post it?
fsck -t goldfish
The way I see it, Sony may have kept some software pirates at bay by making it very difficult to boot a copied game, but they've also severely hurt the CONSOLE'S POTENTIAL by making it impossible for users to create their own software titles for PS2 (i.e. a linux bootable disc with a web browser or any other unix app).
Whatever game console eventually wins the majority of the market needs to have the ability for users to create their own bootable titles and burn them on ordinary CDR drives.
Imagine how much more powerful a device the PS2 could be if you could burn a photo-cd-like disc with an image viewer that runs on PS2? Imagine making a browser-on-a-disk for ps2. Imagine AOL for PS2 (note: AOL could still do that because they could pay sony whatever it costs to burn special PS2 cd/dvds.
My point is that there are a lot of killer apps that could be ported to ps2 easily and put on a CD with a bootable OS and some files that would be *fantastic* and really spur development on PS2 and PS2 *AS* *A* *HARDWARE* *PLATFORM*
We could have networked games for the PS2 already, we could have XMMS mp3/ogg players, we could have mame for ps2, we could have GNOME and KDE desktops on our TVs....
Frustrating....
I hope that some console makers start to realize that we need a console that is hacker-friendly to be used as a developer and hobbyist platform.
A friend on the SHMUPS! forum works at a repair shop, and noted that they'd gotten in a lot of DCs for repair that had had extensive CD-R playing. As in, playing-nothing-except-CDrips(not just using a boot loader to play imports). I suppose this might wear on it a bit quicker.
A friend of mine used to play a buncha rips like DOA2 and GGX for a few months; he switched back to real GDs and his DC seems fine. YMMV may vary, as always...
--
I just moved back to Europe after living in the US. I have a laptop that plays region 1 DVDs, another that plays region 2. So, I've paid my friggin' licence to play DVDs for region 1 AND 2. So, if I decided to mod a PS2 so I can play both, that SHOULD be legal, since I've already paid my fees. (I'm not going to be using the laptop to play DVDs at the same time as the PS2.)
The other issue is that say I already owned PS2 games. Now should I sell all those and buy more? Or should I fight with power adapters, cable adapters, and getting an NTSC compatible TV to play the games? I know that if my brother comes to visit and I have a PS2, he'll bring his games along.
These limitations are clearly designed to keep us all from buying things out of market, but that's what customs regulations are for. Customs doesn't question me because I have rights to acquire items on both sides of the Atlantic and move things between households. However, if I came back to Finland with a large stack of US PS2 games, well, they might have some questions, and they definitely would start charging me duty if I ordered them via the post.
Of course, if Sony, etc., didn't have all this crap locked down on the systems, MOD chips wouldn't be as interesting for legit buyers like myself. Besides, now that they are on DVD, who wants to spend more money to burn titles than they cost to buy? (Of course, the same argument has gone for the DVD films as well.) Too bad you have to pretty much make the chips "play anything" to get around all the region locks.
If you know a place in the Nordics selling the chip, and especially in Finland if they can do the install for me, that's be great. Go ahead and e-mail me then.
The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it. - G.B. Shaw
Basically, if X is selling it to Y, the moment Y is on the other side of some imaginary geopolitical line Z goes "Hey! That's our turf, only we get to sell them those DVDs, so nick off!" It's obscenely monopolistic, and some countries have told them where they can shove it (eg, New Zealand - its courts decided that the DVD region coding system is restrictive and therefore illegal, and it allows region-free players to be sold commercially).
I burned a DVD-R movie using a Pioneer DVD-R/RW Drive. Popped it in the PS2, and it played away. So yeah, stright up out of the box, it plays just fine.
Don't believe me? Head up to your local Circuit City and ask to record a "Message From America". They'll tape you with a Digital 8 tape, and 20 minutes later you'll have a DVD-R with your message on it that'll work just fine in your PS2.
My guess, and please remember, IANAL, would be that Sony has always hated the modchips, but for the ones that allowed CD-R copies of games to be played, they could legally do very little. There are legit uses of CD-R PSX games (ie Backups) that make the modchips legal. However, once the mod-chips start to break region-coding and so forth, Sony probably just saw this as thei opportunity to strike. Of course, I could be wrong.
"Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one " -Albert Einstein
Copying dreamcast games can be done 2 ways. With a custom built serial cable, you can even buy them from lik-sang.com. The second way is via a special boot disc, and the broadband adapter. Boot up the dreamcast, give it an ip, and upload the data from the gdrom to your PC. Information on both of these techniques can easily be found online. Games larger than 700MB usually have the video downsampled, and / or / cdda cut out. That aside, I honestly doubt it was piracy that killed the dreamcast. I think that fear from Redmond did.
Remember that you are unique, just like everybody else.
.. Having 'regions' for games and/or DVD's doesnt make sense.. for example, if you travel abroad to Europe or Japan lets say.. you see a really cool title that you would like to pick up, but cant because of the stoopid regional encoding. Personally I think it would be in corporations best interests to remove regional encoding to boost sales.. oh well thats my 0.02 cents..
Ok, I think we're on level ground now. The way I was looking at it was he was deciding between PS2 and another console, but then when Sony decided to be a dick about backups (and region codes), he then chose the other console, on principle.
Well, I stand corrected... I can't argue with experience, although i would like other people's viewpoints.
I thought that you could make the UK PS2 play region 1 DVDs with the special DVD memory cards you can get (~£20 from Virgin Megastores i think). Oh well, but I've taken down your link for dvdboxoffice.com - if its cheap im off there. Thanks!!
Wrong. Wrong. Wrong
The PS1 was/is the most succesful games console in history. IT IS ALSO THE MOST PIRATED!
The truth of the matter is that people have pirated ps1 games, but they are also going out and buying real copies as well, often on the strength of the copy [if i play a game and really like it, i buy it. if not, it doesn't deserve my money and it gets forgotten. a bit like max payne...] or even that once they have the console, spare cash turns up for a new game and people act honourably. If what you are saying is true, then only one copy of each game for the ps would have been sold, as the original ps [the one i had, the mk1] could play ANY discs, no mod chip needed -this DIDN'T happen
Each of those little companies has to hold their own, even against other Sony companies. Do you think Sony Music allows all it's music to be used on PS2 games without license fees, or that Sony Pictures allows all it's movie IPs (like Spiderman et al) to be turned into PS2 games for free? No, not at all. Some Sony companies have even approached other parts of Sony's direct competitors to get business. It would be like CNN (owned by Time/Warner) doing a joint weekly magazine with Rupert Murdoch to go head to head against Time magazine. That's how disparate and unconnected Sony's companies are.
The Sony companies involved with PS2 are Sony Computer Entertainment America, Europe and Japan. These are not huge companies. Discounting internal studios, they have about 300-400 people per region (probably more in Japan). They are all charged with making a profit for their parent corporation. They don't get anything for free from Sony Corp. They have to buy the hardware from Sony Corp's manufacturing arm, it's not just given to them because they're owned by Sony Corp. They don't have a cheque book from Sony Corp either, and they don't share one big bank account with Sony Corp. So now that you know that, here's the lowdown on modchips, imports and piracy.
1) Parallel imports hurt the local arm of that company. Example. Taking DVD movies as the imported item, lets just say that ALL movies came out in the USA first, then made it over to Europe in 1 year's time. There's good reasons why there's this time delay - the European arm may want to see how the movie performs in the US before allocating marketing funds for Europe, and they've got to have time to dub it into at least 5 new languages. But if the movies are parallel imported from the US, and if anyone can play them, then people (1) won't go and see the movie in the theatre and (2) the revenue generated from DVD sales won't go to the European arm of the company.
Now if Sony was one big company with one BIG bank account, there's not that much damage done, because at the end of the day, you're buying the product from Sony, right?
But Sony is NOT one big company. If people don't buy the movies from Sony Picture Europe, and instead get them from Sony Pictures America, then SPE loses money (and SPA gains). SPA is not about to share those profits with SPE, whatever you might think. Like I said, each company has to hold its own against the others. There's very little collusion between them.
So that's why they hate parallel imports.
2) Modchips that allow you to play import games do have some uses that most would consider reasonable. The NTSC version may be better quality, or the game itself may never be available in your home region. And so hardcore gamers would understandably want such a device.
But how many people are hardcore gamers? You may be, but you read Slashdot, so you're probably computer literate, you were probably brought up with console games. But don't extrapolate that to mean that everyone else is a hardcore gamer.
The PS2 is a mass-market product - there have been 23 million of them sold world-wide since launch. It's a mass market product like stereos and TVs. And just like stereos and TVs, that means that there's a lot of people who know a little about the full range and quality of the products available, and then there's the <1% of the market, the technocrats (audiophiles, film buffs, hardcore gamers) who know practically everything about the subject.
Now, modchips ostensibly serve this <1% of the mass market, and most people would say that they have a reasonable case for import-playing modchips. If you're that into games that you want a better quality conversion from another region, or that you want some obscure game that was released only in Japan and are prepared to learn Japanese just to play it, I can understand why you'd want import-playing modchips. But just remember that you're <1% of a market with 23 million people. You are a minority.
Now, piracy goes hand and hand with modchips. It's just the way they work. Sure, some of them don't allow pirate games to be played. But those are in the minority, and are not in demand. What is in demand are modchips that allow you to play pirated games. Because once you get one installed, you never have to pay for games ever again. So the demand for pirate modchips is far greater than the demand for import-only modchips. The % of the PS2 owners market for import-only modchips is the hardcore gamers market, <1%. But the % for pirate modchips is closer to 100%. So while hardcore gamers complain that the lack of modchips is a bad thing, hopefully they can appreciate that why Sony are concerned about the 'other' effect of putting a modchip into the machine.
What I find incredible is that some of the people selling and fitting these modchips are the games retailers themselves! That's like saying, "I'm a shop that sells razors and razorblades. But I can modify your razor so that you'll never need to buy blades from me again!". Yes, people are that stupid.
Let me guess. You're American, aren't you?
Firstly, you shouldn't be able to use your legal muscle to kill a company unless its actually breaking the law, I don't care how much effort your programming team put in.
Secondly, I only want a region chip because its cheaper to get one than it is to import the whole console. Believe me, if it was an either or situation without any cost or hassle implications I don't think a single person would buy the UK version of the PS2. I haven't got one at all, because these mods aren't known for their relibility, but I only want to play NTSC games, not the piece of junk PAL conversions we are given. I want to watch my collection of hundreds of (all legally bought) DVDs from around the world. I know a grand total of no people who have a DVD player incapable of playing US titles, and they don't see why it shouldn't be the same for games.
If you really feel what you're saying then just call anyone who bought a PS2 for Metal Gear Solid 2 an idiot - clearly thats how you feel about European gamers who want to do the same.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
Nintendo, on the other hand have hardly made it difficult to do region mods- National Console Support are a company dedicated to helping you import console stuff, and they will sell you a Japanese Cube pre-modded to also play US games very reasonably - a friend of mine has one from them and its a very professional job.
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
I think sony should let this one go. You have to cut up your PS2, in order to get a mod chip to work don't you? How many people (average Joe, not nerd) will do something like that to get free games. My brother has a PSX, and his friend has one with a mod chip (friend is a nerd). My brother has no desire to add a mod chip to his PSX, even though his friend could do it for the price of the chip. The non nerd community doesn't really care about mod chips, 'cause every non-nerd I know has no desire to get a mod chip.
Personally I stick with PC games, and wait the 2 or 3 weeks for a good hack to come out.
I want my rights back. I was actually using them when our government stole them after 9/11.
The Business Week article leaves out Asia and Europe. The PS2 sold millions of units in Japan before it was even released in the US. Sony's latest quarterly report placed the worldwide sales of the PS2 hardware at "over 19.57 million units."
The disposable PS2!
Seriously now, there must be some better way to get your message accross....
At least come up with something more environment-friendly.
Sigged!
Thats all fantastic speculation there, save for the fact this is going down IN ENGLAND!!!!!!!
England is probably a worse place for the modchip makers to defend- that country seems to be even more deeply in the clutches of the IR (intellectual restricton) owners than the US.
With lidless eyes guarding an ever increasing proportion of the island, and a health care and national government network beholden to a software tyrant, England is becoming Mordor.
Hell, if someone is willing to put in that amount of effort into modding a PS2, they deserve their prize ;P
Magius_AR
Chip 1 allows people to play copied games. You can make the excuse that this is for "backups" but we all know this is for piracy. Sony does NOTHING.
Chip 2 does what Chip 1 does and also allows imported disks to be played. Sony SUES.
Now what is the difference between chip 1 and chip 2 that made Sony attack? Hmm, maybe the have different priorities than you think...
Of COURSE these chips are used for piracy. Only idiots (and yea a couple post on SlashDot) would think otherwise. The companies are continually feeding us the lie that they are worried about piracy, but their actions are pretty clear about where they really want control.
Think about this in the future, when even the pirated copy of your movie will not let you fast-forward through the commercials and requires you to pay a monthy bill to watch it.
The DMCA applies only to software
Such as the console BIOS?
Will I retire or break 10K?
could so-nee's 'regional' typing of a product be a shallow method to by-pass anti trust laws in this nation?
as for hacking someones' box, isn't this the furtle grounds for 'real' patents?
i can't help but wonder...