Speed of Light Measurement Using Ping

Thomas Colthurst writes "You've no doubt already read the story of ping, but have you ever used it to measure the speed of light?" Here's a case where all that cat5 on college campuses can actually be used for education ;)

Comments

Delays due to molecular friction?

[JTinMSP]

Wouldn't you get delays due to the friction of the copper? You could use fibre, but a switch or patch in the fibre would add latency/friction as well.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[8bit]

Friction?! As I remember the electrions themselves move slow as molasses, but the information (current move, current not move,) travels at the speed of light. So how would any kind of friction change this?

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[HMC CS Major]

They took this into account.

If you look at the actual paper (pdf version here), the 9th page shows the formulas they used to calculate the result.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Hal-9001]

Where does friction enter the picture? If you have the impression that electrons are flowing through CAT-5 to carry bits of information, you're horribly mistaken. You even more horribly mistaken if you think friction has anything to do with fiber-optic communication.

In general, the speed of light pulses sent through a fiber will be approximately 2/3's the speed of light in vacuum, since the refractive index (ratio speed of light in vacuum to speed of light in that medium) of glass is approximately 1.5. You get the latency by dividing the transmission distance by this speed. I haven't had a chance to read the paper yet, but I imagine that CAT-5 latency is probably similar.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right, it wouldn't, but there's a couple of shit-for-brains moderators, so the stupid comment gets called "Insightful" and another round of circle-jerking gets propagated.

That's why people who read Slashdot comments seriously are a bunch of cum-guzzling Taco-snotters, and I hope they all die, like in that hilarious story about the Americans who got toasted in Apollo 1 by the general incompetence of American engineers.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Hal-9001]

I just read the paper, and I was right about the latency of CAT-5:

The least squares fit to these data yields a slope of 2.04 +/- .14 x 10^8 m/s , indicating that the speed of propagation in a cat-5 cable is some 2/3 the speed of light in the vacuum.(bottom of page 8 of the PDF)

Damn, I'm good... ;-)

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[MindStalker]

Its like a hose full of water, you turn on the water on one end, and water almost instantly starts shooting out the other end, but the internal friction and compression of the materials in the hose will effect the speed of that processes. Think of a non compressable fluid, vesus a gas. electrons arn't very compressable, so its fairly instantanious but it does happen, but we know the percent change based on how conductive the material is.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm college. Is that where i stole that wire?

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[cyberformer]

Electrons themselves can't travel at the speed of light. (They have a rest mass, and so according to relativity theory, would require infinite energy to accelerate them to this speed). The information is carried by electromagnetic waves (or photons), which pass through the electrons and do travel at the speed of light (because they have zero mass).

Of course, the speed of light (or photons, or EM waves) in a copper wire is somewhat less than that of light in free space (but, interestingly, somewhat more that that in glass fiber, despite claims that fiber optics is "networking at the speed of light").

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

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-bugg (posting AC for obvious reasons)

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Hal-9001]

The parent post is right: electrons themselves move too slowly for them to carry information all the way from one end of a cable field. Information is carried through cable via an electromagnetic wave, which can propagate much faster. In fact, the parent post is right again: the information propagates at the speed of light (in that medium). In fact, any given electron in the cable probably doesn't go anywhere. A simple example demonstrating this to be true of wave phenomena is that if you send a wave through a string, the end of the string you're holding onto doesn't magically find it's way to the other end of the string--you were holding onto it the whole time. The fact that the wave propagates and the medium doesn't is also why a beach ball out in the ocean beyond the breakers doesn't spontaneously return to shore.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut the hell up you foreign buttpipe. If it wasn't for American engineers, your shitty country (whatever it is) wouldn't have any technology today. Zippo, nada, zilch.

So you can gladly kiss my American Engineer ass.

One more thing... shouldn't the speed of light be measured in a vaccuum?

That's all for today.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Hal-9001]

Of course, the speed of light (or photons, or EM waves) in a copper wire is somewhat less than that of light in free space (but, interestingly, somewhat more that that in glass fiber, despite claims that fiber optics is "networking at the speed of light").

Two responses:

1. Fiber optics is networking at the speed of light--it's just the speed of light in glass, which is ~2/3 the speed of light in vacuum.
2. Photonic bandgap fiber uses a hole in the center of a glass fiber to confine the light. Since this hole is presumably filled with air, which has a refractive index very close to 1, such fiber would be networking very close to the speed of light in vacuum.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahahahaha, another shit-for-brains American "engineer" chips in. Why not go kill some more people with your shoddy work, dickweed?

"shouldn't the speed of light be measured in a vaccuum?"

Hahahahahaha, the funniest bit is your ignorance, and where you misspelt "vacuum", you fuckwit.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mark Bluemel
Software engineer, IBM Hursley Lab
January 2002

Heap exhaustion and excessive garbage collection are often the result of poor object management. Here are a few tips to ensure you're not falling into this trap:

Remember that objects are held in the heap as long as they are "reachable" (loosely speaking) -- if an in-use object has a reference to an out-of-use object, the out-of-use object cannot be garbage collected and will waste space. Vectors, HashTables, linked lists, and similar data structures can often be misused such that they hold references beyond an appropriate time for their release. Profiling tools can be helpful in identifying this sort of problem.

Garbage collection is not free; other processing will be paused. Try to reuse objects in preference to discarding and re-creating them when possible. Object pool mechanisms can be helpful in this respect.

Mark Bluemel
Software engineer, IBM Hursley Lab
January 2002

Heap exhaustion and excessive garbage collection are often the result of poor object management. Here are a few tips to ensure you're not falling into this trap:

Remember that objects are held in the heap as long as they are "reachable" (loosely speaking) -- if an in-use object has a reference to an out-of-use object, the out-of-use object cannot be garbage collected and will waste space. Vectors, HashTables, linked lists, and similar data structures can often be misused such that they hold references beyond an appropriate time for their release. Profiling tools can be helpful in identifying this sort of problem.

Garbage collection is not free; other processing will be paused. Try to reuse objects in preference to discarding and re-creating them when possible. Object pool mechanisms can be helpful in this respect.

Mark Bluemel
Software engineer, IBM Hursley Lab
January 2002

Heap exhaustion and excessive garbage collection are often the result of poor object management. Here are a few tips to ensure you're not falling into this trap:

Remember that objects are held in the heap as long as they are "reachable" (loosely speaking) -- if an in-use object has a reference to an out-of-use object, the out-of-use object cannot be garbage collected and will waste space. Vectors, HashTables, linked lists, and similar data structures can often be misused such that they hold references beyond an appropriate time for their release. Profiling tools can be helpful in identifying this sort of problem.

Garbage collection is not free; other processing will be paused. Try to reuse objects in preference to discarding and re-creating them when possible. Object pool mechanisms can be helpful in this respect.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

I could waste time to reply to this, but I have engineering homework to finish... so when I perfect the long range missile guidance systems we can show your P.O.S. country who's boss.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[anthony_dipierro]

You get the latency by dividing the transmission distance by this speed.

You're presuming that the distance travelled by light is roughly equivalent to the distance of the cable. This is grossly inaccurate.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I recall correctly, the speed of light in coax is slightly faster than the speed of light in fibre... cat5 is probably faster too. Of course, the term "light" is misleading, since in normal usage that applies to visible light, and we're really talking about radio waves here...

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Mr Z]

Actually, the speed of an electromagnetic wave is somewhat slower in a cable than in a vacuum. How much slower is determined by the dielectric constant for the cabling's material.

This page on transmission line theory explains things pretty well. It actually covers the concepts that students performing the described experiment need in order to actually get their results. It also describes some other neat things (such as the theoretical reasons why you need a "balun" converter to connect 75ohm coax to 300ohm twinlead. It even explains why the wire types are called 75ohm and 300ohm, if indirectly.)

--Joe

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

friction of the copper. right-o. go read a physics book fucker

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Technician]

Friction equates to loss or attenuation. The signal gets weaker with distance. Attenuation does not affect speed. Propagation factor is another mater. It does affect the velocity of the signal, but does not change the amplitude. In cable both items are present. Attenuation is due to both resitance of the copper conductor and dielectric losses in the insulation. Delay is caused by the dialectric, not the conductor. The delay in cables is well known. Anyone who uses a TDR regularly is aware of the velocity factor of the type of cable they are measuring. It must be known to get an accurate length measurement. Air dielectric has a constant of 1. Coax with solid dielectric is near 2/3rd that speed. I wonder if the university study took into account the velocity factor for the cable. If not, I expect they will find light is about 20% slow.

The best experiment I saw for measuring the speed of light was done using the mirror (8 sided) out of a laser printer. At rest a laser was reflected off a face of the mirror and went to a target reflector. Oposite the laser, a detector was used to see the same target off another face of the mirror. When the mirror was spun, the laser scanned the reflector. The reflected light pulse would not reach the detector because the travel delay kept the return pulse from hitting the mirror at the right angle to reach the detector. At a certan speed the pulse reached the mirror in the right postion (1/8th rotation) to send the reflected pulse on to the detector. Light only reached the detector with the mirror at rest and at a speed where the mirror turned 1/8th of a revolution in the time the light took to travel from the mirror to the reflector and back to the mirror. It was a good class. We started with a known distance to measure the speed of light, then used an unknown reflector (stop sign down the block) much further away and used our speed results to measure the distance.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're presuming that the distance travelled by light is roughly equivalent to the distance of the cable. This is grossly inaccurate.

It's quite accurate, if the cable is long. (Assuming by "light" you mean "the signal".)

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[JCMay]

The electrons move (as a result of an applied voltage) at what is known as the drift velocity. A example in copper is also available.

Current doesn't stop (your "current move, current not move" parenthetical). Current is not a thing, but is a description of a situation: moving charge is a current. An Ampere is defined as one Coulomb of charge passing a reference plane in one second.

How fast a signal propagates down a wire is its group velocity.

The "friction" mentioned by the original poster I interpret to be a flawed understanding of how resisivity works. Electrical signals travelling through resistive materials are attenuated, not slowed down, due to the resistance. Changes in velocity are due to changes in the dielectic constant.

Re:Delays due to molecular friction?

[anthony_dipierro]

It's quite accurate, if the cable is long. (Assuming by "light" you mean "the signal".)

I was referring to fiber optics, in which light bounces from side to side. Because light bounces from side to side, the distance travelled by light is proportional to the length of the cable, but not equal to it.

first karma whore

[Anonymous Coward]

We report on a very simple and inexpensive method for determining the speed of an electrical wave in a transmission line. The method consists of analyzing the roundtrip time for ethernet packets between two computers. It involves minimal construction, straightforward mathematics and displays the usefulness of stochastic resonance in signal recovery. Using basic electrical properties of category-five cable students may use their measurements to determine the speed of light in the vacuum to within a few percent.

i see

[TeknoTurd]

hrm makes sense to me :)

first post

[Anonymous Coward]

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FIFTH POST

[Ralph Malph Alpha]

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[Anonymous Coward]

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Re:omg first post

[Anonymous Coward]

liar

speed of light - time traveling

[Anonymous Coward]

NICE!
link to a .gov pr0n server

who cares about the speed of light?
we will never be able to time travel :(

Re:speed of light - time traveling

[Frank White]

When I find out how to time travel, I will go back to when your mom was a busty schoolgirl, and become your father. I will also solve the halting problem.

I just measured it

[Guitarzan]

And according to Unreal Tournament, the speed of light is about 50 miles per hour.

Re:I just measured it

[FallLine]

And apparently it gets SLOWER on shorter and smaller networks! Mine slowed down to 5 miles per hour on my crossover!@@#!

Re:I just measured it

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Star Trek, the speed of light coming from a phaser is about the speed of a flying rubber band.

Re:I just measured it

[Cruciform]

It's a little higher than that. Don't forget you're actually running at 55 :P

Dunno about light..

[ackthpt]

But I've certainly used it to measure the speed of lag. I wish I had some of my old traceroute logs from when sprintnet went out in Chicago. Ping times went down to 1545ms on average, going from Bay City, MI to Saginaw, to Michigan Tech, to Rochester, to Willow Springs, to Atlanta, to St. Louis, to Kansas City to Ft. Worth, to Austin. Those were some well travelled packets.

Re:Dunno about light..

[Anonymous Coward]

Go away.

Re:Dunno about light..

[GigsVT]

That's no big deal man, this message is coming to you from my house, up 60,000 miles into space, then 60,000 miles back down, and 1000 odd land miles.

My pings are never less than 650ms.

But I sure can download things real fast once they get rolling. :)

The joys of satellite internet. Ping already let me calculate the speed of light, easily, without stociastimachwastic anything.

Re:Dunno about light..

[Anonymous Coward]

Man , at 60000 miles, you must have to move your satellite constantly. 22,241 miles, maybe?

Re:Dunno about light..

[GigsVT]

Yeah, you are probably right, mine was just a rough estimate, only off by a single constant multiplier. :)

How they do it

[Alien54]

As seen in the paper:

Here's the problem; the cable range of ethernet without a repeater is about 250 feet (that is, at most a few microseconds roundtrip in cat-5 cable) and actually all the tests described here are done in much shorter cat-5 cable (more practical for typical reuse) and coaxial cable lengths so that it can be done cheaply. A typical classroom can hold several experiments of this type, the cables being shared between pairs of computers (and thus lab groups). Since ping only returns roundtrip times as measured in microseconds the actual signal (which is the additional delay in a cable path of longer length) is below the (reported) resolution of ping.

The solution is to use noise. Although noise usually hampers one's ability to measure a signal, in this experiment, noise in the form of randomly distributed small delays (microseconds) associated with machine response actually makes the measurement of the signal (nanosecond-long cable transit delays) possible. Without the noise, the experiment we describe here would be impossible! This concept of noise-assisted sub-threshold signal detection (hereafter; stochastic resonance) is of great value because it plays a role in a great variety of systems. For a readable introduction and overview of stochastic resonance see Ref. [7] and Ref. [10] for a bibliography. For example, stochastic resonance has been used to analyze climate patterns [8] and plays a role in fundamental neuro-physiology [9] . Part of the hidden pedagogic agenda of this laboratory is to introduce the concept of stochastic resonance in a hands-on way. How well this laboratory can actually get students to ponder that depends on the approach of the instructor. Our experience with this laboratory indicates that time differences on the order of 50 nanoseconds (or about 5 % of the threshold) are reliably resolvable.

Which is damn clever of them indeed.

Re:How they do it

[Anonymous Coward]

damn karma whore!!

Re:How they do it

[Score0, Overrated]

The informative bit is the reference 7 where stochastic resonance is actually explained.

stochastic resonance

Re:How they do it

[afidel]

I don't know where they got their information but the 100-BT standard calls for a 100m cable length limitation, which is considerably more than 250 feet. In addition most networking gear providers of any decent caliper will go much farther in testing. For an example when I helped our test group set up a test for our then next generation product we made some custom 150m cables and tried our product with various manufacturers nic's. With the exception of one low cost (d-link, smc or netgear can't remember) nic all were able to go 150m with no errors. Note this was over cat-5e not cheap cat-5 or cat3.

Re:How they do it

[marklark]

One laptop had 100-BT. The other had 10-BT. The lowest common denominator is 10-BT, which would be the one that applies.

It, being the slower protocol/technology, may have a the longer, 250 foot, limit.

Re:How they do it

[eples]

Which is damn clever of them indeed.

Yes - their use of the word "pedagogic" WAS quite clever...

Seriously, though it is pretty neat.

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[Anonymous Coward]

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[Anonymous Coward]

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How can this be accurate?

[TommyBear]

Their recording equipment consists of laptops that are networked. Wouldn't the packet first need to hit the network iterface, be decoded. Hit the pci bus hit the CPU, hit the software, run through the os, to the bash process to be displayed on the bash console?

Doesn't sound very accurate to me.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Score0, Overrated]

All those things are mentioned are constant - so you can do it with a long wire, and with a short wire.

Then you use the difference - and you've eliminated your constants.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Anonymous Coward]

I was thinking the exact same thing. Unless they knew the exact route and therefore distance the signal took through all those components (which would require knowing way too much about the architecture of the systems) before reaching the network interface, or used miles of cable, there seem to be a lot of places for error.

Maybe that's why they're sending "noise," but still...sending any signal on a computer goes through a whole lot more distance than the linear length of connections between devices.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are they necessarily constant? Even with nothing running in the backround, the cpu could be doing random memory cleanup that could inflate the times.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Anonymous Coward]

It would be interesting to see how the Speed of Light varied Operating System to Operating System.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Score0, Overrated]

Over 15000 samples it's going to be pretty constant.

Perhaps you should read the paper?

Re:How can this be accurate?

[TommyBear]

While were splitting hairs....

That's by no means a constant, rather a mean or average of a group of values.

This is by no means accurate, anaything can throw the values off (OS, System, Hardware, or disks). This is really a wastes of time, in it's current form, needs more thought.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Anonymous Coward]

While we're splitting hairs :-)

Re:How can this be accurate?

[marklark]

They aren't sending noise.

The "noise" in the data is _caused_ by the components. It is what makes the whole idea work.

And, you don't have to know everything about the hardware.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Anonymous Coward]

[The error bias is] by no means a constant, rather a mean or average of a group of values.

It doesn't have to be a constant. See below.

This is by no means accurate, anaything can throw the values off (OS, System, Hardware, or disks). This is really a wastes of time, in it's current form, needs more thought.

Except for the fact that it actually gives the right answer for the speed of light -- reliably and reproducibly, to within a few percent. I wonder how that happened. Accident? Coincidence? Fudging the data? Incompetent error analysis? Wishful thinking? No, none of the above.

You really need to learn about statistical error analysis. This happens in every scientific experiment: there are always uncontrollable, unknown sources of error "that can throw the values off" -- be they fluctuations in OS response time, or in the temperature of a material, or air currents, or whatever is relevant to your experiment. (This case is just more extreme, where the errors are larger than the signal.)

However, that doesn't prevent you from analyzing the magnitudes of the errors and getting an accurate result bounded by error bars. In this case, if you take enough measurements, it's possible to extract a signal from the noise -- you just need to make sure that the signal-to-noise ratio is good enough.

I'm reminded of a trick for improving GPS accuracy: it's only accurate to some certain number of meters. But if you leave the receiver at the same location and carefully integrate the signal for a sufficiently long period of time (hours or days), you can actually get down to centimeter accuracy -- far beyond the theoretical "accuracy" of the equipment, even though random errors throw each individual measurement off by metters.

The reason is because the error goes like 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of measurements. Take a lot of measurements, and you can reduce the error. (Up to a point, until the noise swamps the signal beyond any statistical chance of recovery. It isn't a magic trick for providing infinite accuracy.) I remember Jerry Pournelle, in his Chaos Manor column, talking about using a GPS unit this way to locate the exact best location for a solar eclipse (just for the heck of it, not that you really need to know it down to the last centimeter).

For that matter, this is the same reason why the LIGO instrument can use laser rangefinding to measure distances on the order of 1/1000 of the diameter of a proton. No, I'm not joking. 10^-18 meters. How can it do that, if that's far smaller than the size of an atom, if the mirror the beam is bouncing off of isn't even flat to that accuracy?

It can do that because it's measuring the average distance of lots of atoms (all the atoms in the mirror), so the same kind of 1/sqrt(N) argument applies. It's another counterexample to your first remark: the measured values don't have to be constant (due to a constant systematic error bias); they can fluctuate, as long as you've got a very accurate measurement of their average. Thus, the instrument will be able to detect the minute changes in distance that occur when a gravitational wave passes by and curves space along the beam line.

(Side note: LIGO II will be sensitive that it will actually be making macroscopic quantum measurements, running up against the Heisenburg uncertainty bound on position accuracy -- as applied to a 30-40 kg object, the mirror. It's a textbook problem to verify that the HUP bound on position for a macroscopic object is utterly tiny, but for the first time, we will be able to demonstrate its applicability on the macroscale directly.)

In all of the above cases, including the case under discussion here, this trick is only possible because the SNR was low enough to permit signal extraction from the noise. If the OS/system/hardware threw off the values by too wide a spread every time, then you wouldn't be able to do this -- but they don't. (In the LIGO case, the signal is so small that they have to do amazing noise reduction in order to pull out any signal at all. The observatory is so sensitive that it can track passing aircraft from the noise they make, since it vibrates the mirrors that the lasers are bouncing off of. Fortunately, they have all kinds of ways of subtracting out noise like that, so that the remaining unavoidable noise is absolutely tiny.)

In fact, in the case under discussion, the very errors you're claiming make the experiment "a waste of time", are what make the experiment work! (As was pointed out in the paper, and by other posters here.) If you always got a consistent "ping 1 ms" or whatever, that wouldn't tell you much, since the actual transit time is much less than 1 ms. But if there are some fluctuations due to random errors, then changing the physical round trip time will have an influence on the statistical distribution of those fluctuations. (i.e., the shape of the error bars -- or, more accurately, of the statistical distribution of error -- bounding a data point depends on where the data point is. Thus, the noise tells you about the signal!)

Incidentally, I'm reminded of some amateur radio astronomers being able to measure pulsar emission rates using homebuilt experiments. There's no way you can actually see the period signal directly, but with long integration times, some Fourier transforms, and a little signal processing... It's really amazing what you can do with a little signal processing! I'm pretty sure they weren't using anything as fancy as stochastic resonance, but imagine what they could do if they could apply this technique...

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is by no means accurate, anaything can throw the values off (OS, System, Hardware, or disks). This is really a wastes of time, in it's current form, needs more thought.

Anyway, we already know the speed of the light with infinite precision.

Re:How can this be accurate?

[Anonymous Coward]

You are right in the sense that today the speed of light in vacuum is a defined constant (299 792 458 m/s). The same holds true for the second, which makes the meter a derived unit. There was an interesting article on length measurements in the March 2000 issue of Physics Today.

Good as experiment.

[Bender Unit 22]

It sounds good as a experiment. You have to figure out the time the computer in the other end takes to reply and then return an answer. But don't you really need another clock than the one that comes in a standard pc. Some PC's seems to loose up to 30 secs every day. And then there is the limit to how long your cable can be. since you can't have any switches in between, can the cable be long enough so you can measure a delay with the poor accuracy of a pc? Hmm maybe counting clock cycles would be better for timetaking. oh well.

Re:Good as experiment.

[xercist]

I don't think losing a few seconds each day will make the difference needed to mess up the results of such a test, but in either case, NTPd measures the inaccuracy of your system clock by comparing it to reliable sources (stratum 1 time servers) and compensates for it automatically. If you run ntpd, you should be able to see what your offset is by looking at the file /var/lib/ntp/ntp.drift.

Re:Good as experiment.

[LoseNotLooseGuy]

Some PC's seems to loose up to 30 secs every day.

I doubt that the PCs "let loose or release" 30 seconds every day; that would imply some sort of conscious effort on the part of the PC, not to mention control over the flow of time itself. I believe the word you were looking for was lose.

Congratulations! You have been participant #9 in my campaign to rid Slashdot of this error.

Re:Good as experiment.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm going to loose my foot up your ass!

Re:Good as experiment.

[Bender Unit 22]

Well, I have only had one year of English education in school and since it's not a language I use everyday, I think that it was close enough. heh

Re:Good as experiment.

[invenustus]

In my experiences, computers don't have a steady drift. They tend to lose time more under high use. So when Windows is f***ing up and everything is slow, I lose all kinds of time.

I hate to bury a question like this so low in a thread, but here goes: why is it that for $5 I can buy a Backstreet Boys (or whatever) wristwatch at K-Mart that will lose less than a minute each month, yet I pay thousands of dollars for computers and the clocks are useless if you don't run a program to update it CONSTANTLY? I'd love to learn how to wire a wristwatch into my CPU to be the clock....

xxx.lang.gov?

[Anonymous Coward]

xxx.lang.gov? Oh great, a government sponsored porn site.

Seems to me

[javaaddikt]

That you'd only be measuring the amount of pr0n being downloaded by physics students... unless you had your own clean segment.

Re:Seems to me

[stretch_jc]

I'd be one to agree with you given't the domain name: xxx.lanl.gov

Re:Seems to me

[mindriot]

Well, considering the host of the website is called xxx.lanl.gov, you might not be so wrong there...

I guess it would work

[Nf1nk]

While it seems like it should work I have a hard time believing that the distances are known constants (wiring can take some very odd routes) and that there aren't other bits of wierdness that could cause problems.

But I guess its no weirder than useing beer cans and watch to determine your location

Re:I guess it would work

[HMC CS Major]

They're using their own wire, not that of a building or telco (ie: running it across a field and back, or around in circles, direct from one laptop to another ... point to point, no switches/routers/hubs in the way).

The Slashdot Drinking Game

[The BOFH Troll]

1. Surround yourself with a handful of Slashdot-aware friends.
2. Surround yourself with a variety of alcoholic beverages.
3. Familiarise yourself with things to slur when sufficiently intoxicated. These may include - but are not limited to: "Whaaaassssup!" and "I regret to inform you, ossifer, that my alcohol may contain trace amounts of blood".
4. Gather friends around a large monitor.
5. Familiarise yourself with the observations set out below, and decide among yourself which drinks to down, and when.
6. Load a web-browser, and visit Slashdot. Open up an article on practically any subject; display preferences set to 'flat, threshold 1, oldest first'.
7. Scroll down the page, slow enough so that even the booziest of observers has enough time to read and comprehend each post. As per the pre-arranged rules, consume a beverage of your choice.
8. CMP state,#bladdered : BNE stage_7

real instructions

1. Read the observations listed below.
2. Depending on whether you agree with them or not, either nod sagely and concur, "True, true" or scowl angrily and accuse the author of smoking crack.

the actual observations

Drink a quantity of alcoholic substance and/or nod solemnly whenever...

• A poor analogy is constructed, embellished and never refuted, especially when it relates to the politics of MP3s, the feasibility of designing accessible websites, the ramifications of gun laws or the relative advantages/disadvantages of Intellectual Property.
• A large number of words in an article are unnecessarily hyperlinked, thus causing the hapless (yet curious) reader to place the mouse pointer over each and every one, in the hope that at least one of them might be in any way interesting.
• Someone says "Ummmm... you did read the article, didn't you?"
  • ...but they probably didn't read it themselves.
• An informative article is moderated as 'insightful', or vice versa.
• Someone claims that their post consists solely of the cold harsh facts of truth, while the opponent has to resort to name-calling, FUD or other such beastly tactics.
• The pre-emptive plea: "I'll probably get moderated down for saying this..." which of course gets moderated up.
  • ...they were posting anonymously to "protect their karma".
• The 'Slashdot mentality' is described and 'rebelled' against, to the author's karmic advantage.
  • ...they are effectively moderated up simply for voicing an opinion which is (or claims to be...) 'radically different'
  • ...plausible examples of the 'groupthink conformity' are mentioned (e.g. pro-Linux, pro-Open Source, anti-Microsoft, anti-spam, pro-Libertarian, anti-censorship, pro-Napster etc).
  • ...implausible examples are mentioned ("I'll probably get moderated down for voicing this opinion in what is clearly a predominantly anti-taildocking forum")
  • ...the author talks of 'Slashbots', 'Sheepdot' or other such anti-Slashdot rhetoric ("Open Source, Closed Minds... we are Slashdot")
  • ...a clearly inflammatory post is saved from a rightful (Score: -1, Flamebait) with the cautionary "this isn't a troll, I'm just pointing out the facts" or better still, the unconvincing "this isn't a troll - I don't even know what a troll is."
  • ...the score makes it clear that Slashdot moderators are becoming more sympathetic to pro-Microsoft posts than pro-Linux ones.
• A poster recognizes a troll and comprehends the futility in replying to such, but does so anyway with the resignation, "I know I'm not supposed to reply to trolls, but..."
• A poster is accused of being a troll despite being not even remotely inflammatory or controversial.
• After being berated for posting an insensitive, illogical or offensive post, the author caves in and posts, "*sheesh* it was only a joke! Evidentally you have no sense of humour!"
• Ignoring the numerous replies to a "It's funny. Laugh" article that clearly demonstrate that the posters have indeed found it to be amusing, someone suggests that everyone is taking it "waaaaay too seriously."
• Something is criticized as being "cool" or "trendy".
• A posting ends with the author saying, "eh, whatever", "go figure" or "*shrug*".
• Someone utilises any of the following terms or phrases: zealot, jihadist, sheeple, hysterical, misguided, whine, apologists, "funny, isn't it, how...".

Re:The Slashdot Drinking Game

[Anonymous Coward]

j00 r0x0r my b0x0rs. j00=l33t.

TIMOTHY, no fuckin shit; you can use ping for that

[Anonymous Coward]

And all you trolls currently trolling...EAT MY SHORTS

John Walker Lindh is a fucking maggot...

[Anonymous Coward]

... you know he is. Fucking traitor.

Re:John Walker Lindh is a fucking maggot...

[Anonymous Coward]

that's right... lets judge someone that hasn't had his trial yet.

keep driving around in your flag-flying SUV... TOOL

Re:John Walker Lindh is a fucking maggot...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh geez. How much more evidence would be enough for you, marblehead? If one of the two of you is going to be labeled a "tool", it probably oughta be you, Forrest.

What About This Story of Ping?

[Cheshire Cat]

Check out the first review of this story on Ping.

Re:What About This Story of Ping?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahahahahaha, you're a fucking retard who didn't bother to read the story. Fuck off, you gaping, diseased cunt. It makes me happy to think that you'll die one day - I hope it's soon, and that you don't enjoy life until then!

Re:What About This Story of Ping?

[Anonymous Coward]

hahahahhaahha you're a double-fuck dick-fart cunt-snot of an exhumed idiot's shriveled undescended testicle for not getting that. God some people are useless, you should be the next meal of a man eating lion.
People like you make me want to tear up my membership card to the human race and join the chimpanzees.

Re:What About This Story of Ping?

[Da Schmiz]

LOL! That is absolutely, unequivocally, the funniest thing I've read all day! (Okay, except for the quote at the back of the latest PC Magazine about a digital camera featuring "a high-quality 3X optical zoom lens designed for digital pornography".)

But I digress.

The text of the review in question, for you AC's who only read the part of the website above the fold:

Ping! I love that duck!, January 25, 2000
Reviewer: A reader from El Segundo
PING! The magic duck!

Using deft allegory, the authors have provided an insightful and intuitive explanation of one of Unix's most venerable networking utilities. Even more stunning is that they were clearly working with a very early beta of the program, as their book first appeared in 1933, years (decades!) before the operating system and network infrastructure were finalized.

The book describes networking in terms even a child could understand, choosing to anthropomorphize the underlying packet structure. The ping packet is described as a duck, who, with other packets (more ducks), spends a certain period of time on the host machine (the wise-eyed boat). At the same time each day (I suspect this is scheduled under cron), the little packets (ducks) exit the host (boat) by way of a bridge (a bridge). From the bridge, the packets travel onto the internet (here embodied by the Yangtze River).

The title character -- er, packet, is called Ping. Ping meanders around the river before being received by another host (another boat). He spends a brief time on the other boat, but eventually returns to his original host machine (the wise-eyed boat) somewhat the worse for wear.

If you need a good, high-level overview of the ping utility, this is the book. I can't recommend it for most managers, as the technical aspects may be too overwhelming and the basic concepts too daunting.

Problems With This Book

As good as it is, The Story About Ping is not without its faults. There is no index, and though the ping(8) man pages cover the command line options well enough, some review of them seems to be in order. Likewise, in a book solely about Ping, I would have expected a more detailed overview of the ICMP packet structure.

But even with these problems, The Story About Ping has earned a place on my bookshelf, right between Stevens' Advanced Programming in the Unix Environment, and my dog-eared copy of Dante's seminal work on MS Windows, Inferno. Who can read that passage on the Windows API ("Obscure, profound it was, and nebulous, So that by fixing on its depths my sight -- Nothing whatever I discerned therein."), without shaking their head with deep understanding. But I digress. --This text refers to the School & Library Binding edition.

Oprah Caught in Sexual Tryst with Dr. Phil

[Anonymous Coward]

jdp cxjxip uc rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj rg jdp x.w. rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz

cipbpiros jdutnw tnijrg
gnjrugnf wpoxirjz nqpgoz
xwn
nawjinoj

jdrw hnhpi yrff bpwoirap jdp cxjxip uc rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj yrjdrg jdp kniruxw uiqngrmnjrugw ngb nqpgorpw jdnj ouffpojrkpfz nip sguyg nw jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, rgofxbrgq jdp orn, gwn, brn, ngb jdp guy bpofnwwrcrpb giu. jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz uc jdp xw qukpigtpgj ipopgjfz ougcritpb jdnj rjw axbqpj -- sphj wpoipj nw ofnwwrcrpb rgcuitnjrug rg nff 50 hipkruxw zpniw wrgop rjw rgophjrug -- jujnfpb $26.6 arffrug buffniw fnwj zpni. aponxwp tuwj uc jdpwp cxgbw nip whpgj ug hiukrbrgq rgcuitnjrug, jdp opgjinf cuoxw uc jdrw hnhpi yrff nbbipww ydnj jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz apfrpkpw ju ap jdp "rgcuitnjrug ipkufxjrug" uc jdp jdrib trffpggrxt. jdrw hnhpi yrff hiukrbp ng plhfngnjrug uc jdp huwwrafp iufp ngb rthnoj jdnj jdp rgcuitnjrug jpodgufuqz tngnqptpgj ipcuit noj (rjtin), hnwwpb az ougqipww rg nxqxwj 1996, yrff dnkp ug jdp cxjxip uc rgcuitnjrug yrjdrg jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ngb duy jdnj ipfnjpw ju rgjpigpj ngb rgjingpj yuisrgq hiucpwwrugnfw. rj yrff bpwoirap jdp jingwrjrug ju ypa-opgjiro pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq uc uxi gnjrug'w rgjpffrqpgop iphuijw, sguyg nw "crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop," rgju ng rgjpqinjpb rgcuitnjrug whnop. bpwoirargq jdp cxjxip, jdrw hnhpi yrff plhfuip jdp ougophj uc n tuip "nqrfp" rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp, qrkrgq xw rgwrqdj rgju duy jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz hfngw ju nodrpkp rjw qunf uc ng pfpojiugronffz gpjyuispb pgkriugtpgj cui jdp hiubxojrug ngb plodngqp uc rgjpffrqpgop, n qunf bpptpb nawufxjpfz pwwpgjrnf ju gnjrugnf wpoxirjz rg jdp 21wj opgjxiz.

hpidnhw jdp qipnjpwj hninbrqt wdrcj rg tubpig rgjpffrqpgop hiubxojrug rw jdp jingwrjrug ju ypa-opgjiro, pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq uc uxi gnjrug'w rgjpffrqpgop iphuijw. nw n ipwxfj, jdpip rw txod pccuij guy aprgq bpkujpb yrjdrg jdp qukpigtpgj ju nbbipwwrgq n gxtapi uc pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq ougopigw. wdnirgq jdp ipwxfjw uc wpkpinf wxoopwwcxf hiuepojw, jdrw hnhpi yrff jnsp n fuus nj n gxtapi uc jdpwp ougopigw, rgofxbrgq jdp rwwxp uc rthfptpgjrgq "hxwd" jpodgufuqz ngb jdp bpanjp rg tngz pgjpihirwpw jubnz ukpi jdp nhhiuhirnjp iufpw cui wjngbnibw wxod nw wqtf ngb jdp iufp uc gpy ptpiqrgq wjngbnibw wxod nw ltf. plnthfpw yrff rgofxbp whporcro nhhfronjrugw jnspg ciut jdp gnjrugnf wpoxirjz nqpgoz, jdp uccrop uc gnknf rgjpffrqpgop, jdp gnjrugnf rtnqpiz ngb tnhhrgq nqpgoz, ngb jdp eurgj rgjpffrqpgop opgjpi, hnorcro. jdpwp wxoopww wjuirpw dnkp bripoj nhhfronjrug ju jdp uiqngrmnjrug ui axwrgpww jubnz cnopb yrjd jdp hiubxojrug ngb brwjiraxjrug uc fniqp kufxtpw uc buoxtpgjw, ydrod bpwoirapw krijxnffz nff axwrgpwwpw jubnz!

jdp hnhpi yrff nfwu hiukrbp xw yrjd n fuus rgju jdp cxjxip: duy bupw jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz hfng ju rthfptpgj nff uc jdp rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj rthiukptpgjw jdnj rj rw yuisrgq wu dnib ug? yp ong apqrg ju ngwypi jdrw yrjd ng plntrgnjrug uc jdp xgbpifzrgq oniirnqp ju nff uc jdp rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj rthiukptpgjw uc jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ngb n qfrthwp nj jdp ipnf cxjxip uc jdp yuifb uc rgjpffrqpgop: jdp ougophj uc "krijxnf rgjpffrqpgop." ydnj yrff jdp yuifb uc krijxnf rgjpffrqpgop ipnffz fuus frsp?

ju ngwypi jdrw, yp yrff plntrgp jdp rbpn uc n tuip "nqrfp" rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp, nw pgkrwrugpb az bi. ixjd bnkrb, jdp oxiipgj orn bphxjz bripojui cui worpgop ngb jpodgufuqz. jdrw hnhpi yrff plhfnrg jdnj krwrug, rgofxbrgq jdp hpioprkpb hiuafptw, wpoxirjz rwwxpw, ngb tngnqptpgj odnffpgqpw. jdp "nqrfp" rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp ougophj, outargpb yrjd niodrjpojxinf, wpoxirjz, ngb ujdpi wjngbnibw nhhfrpb ju jdp plrwjrgq ngb hfnggpb jpfpouttxgronjrugw rgcinwjixojxip, iphipwpgjw jdp hirtniz outhugpgjw uc ugp uc jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz'w tuwj rthuijngj qunfw.
ougjpgjw

* 1. rgjiubxojrug
* 2. jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz: xfjrtnjp rgcuitnjrug hiubxopiw
* 2.1 jdp nqpgorpw
* 2.2 jdp trwwrug
* 2.3 jdp ouwj
* 3. rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj odnffpgqpw
* 4. jdp wufxjrug: ng rgjingpj cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz
* 4.1 ydnj rw rgjpfrgs?
* 4.2 ydz rw rgjpfrgs jdp ngwypi?
* 4.3 plnthfpw uc uiqngrmnjrugnf rthfptpgjnjrugw uc rgjpfrgs
* 4.3.1 uccrop uc gnknf rgjpffrqpgop
* 4.3.2 eurgj rgjpffrqpgop opgjpi, hnorcro (erohno)
* 5. jdp cxjxip yuifb uc rgjpffrqpgop: "krijxnf rgjpffrqpgop"
* 5.1 ydnj rw nqrfrjz?
* 5.2 ydz rw nqrfrjz gpopwwniz?
* 5.3 ydnj rw ng nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp?
* 6. ougofxwrug: odnffpgqp cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz

1. rgjiubxojrug

rg jdp xgrjpb wjnjpw, jdp hiubxojrug uc rgjpffrqpgop rw n txfjr-arffrug-buffni pccuij jdnj rw krjnf ju jdp ouxgjiz'w wpoxirjz ngb hiuwhpirjz, ngb niqxnafz, jdnj uc jdp cipp yuifb nw ypff. jdp kniruxw uiqngrmnjrugw jdnj nip ouffpojrkpfz sguyg nw jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz nip rg jdp hiuopww uc jiptpgbuxw oxfjxinf ngb jpodgufuqronf odngqp nw jdp jdrib trffpggrxt nhhiunodpw. yrjd jpodgufuqz odngqpw, bpofrgrgq ipwuxiopw, ng plhfuwrug uc rgcuitnjrug, ngb n outhfpjpfz brccpipgj wpj uc qpuhufrjronf hiruirjrpw, jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz txwj crgb wtnijpi ynzw ju tngnqp rjw tuwj oirjronf ipwuxiop: rgcuitnjrug. jdrw hnhpi nbbipwwpw jdp cxjxip uc rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj yrjdrg jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ngb bpwoirapw duy jdpz hfng ju apoutp cfplrafp, nbnhjrkp, ngb tuip "nqrfp" nw ng pgjpihirwp. rj bpwoirapw jdpri bpkpfuhtpgj ngb rthfptpgjnjrug uc "rgjpfrgs," ng rgjingpj jdnj hiukrbpw pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq ngb brwwptrgnjrug uc jdpri crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop nw ypff nw n txfjr-wpoxirjz-fpkpf ouffnauinjrkp pgkriugtpgj. jyu uiqngrmnjrugw yrjd uhpinjrugnf hiujujzhpw nip orjpb ju bptugwjinjp jdp hiuqipww jdnj rw aprgq tnbp ju apoutp tuip "nqrfp." fnwjfz, jdp hnhpi bpwoirapw jdp jingwrjrug ju ng "nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp," ydpip "krijxnf jpntw" ouffnauinjp ugfrgp ngb nff bnjn apoutpw n wdnipb nwwpj nw hnij uc ng pgjpihirwp-yrbp "rgcuitnjrug whnop."
2. jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz: xfjrtnjp rgcuitnjrug hiubxopiw

jdp fpnbpiw uc orkrf ngb trfrjniz uiqngrmnjrugw dnkp nfynzw bpwripb ju dnkp rgcuitnjrug jdnj yuxfb cuipynig jdpt uc bngqpi, ipbxop xgopijnrgjz rg jdp bporwrug-tnsrgq hiuopww, ngb ujdpiyrwp hiphnip jdpt cui ydnjpkpi cxjxip oirjronf bporwrugw jdpz tnz cnop. jdp hinojrop uc rgjpffrqpgop ong ap bpcrgpb nw jdp wxt uc pccuijw ipvxripb ju nodrpkp jdp cxgbntpgjnf gppbw uc jdpwp fpnbpiw ngb bporwrug-tnspiw. jdp hinojrop uc rgjpffrqpgop rgkufkpw jpbruxw ouffpojrug, rgjpihipjnjrug, ngnfzwrw, ngb iphuijrgq uc rgcuitnjrug; ngb frsp wu tngz axwrgpww hiuopwwpw jubnz, rj nfwu txwj qinhhfp wrtxfjngpuxwfz yrjd iptukrgq ui nj fpnwj ipbxorgq jdp kniruxw hiuafptw ngb aniirpiw pgouxgjpipb. tuwj hpuhfp jdrgs uc rgjpffrqpgop nojrkrjrpw nw uooxiirgq ntugq cuiprqg gnjrugw, huypiw, ui ujdpi uiqngrmnjrugw (nfjduxqd "rgbxwjirnf pwhrugnqp" rgkufkpw jdp hinojrop uc rgjpffrqpgop ntugq outtpiornf, gugqukpigtpgj pgjrjrpw) ju bpjpitrgp kniruxw nojrkrjrpw, hfngw, ngb pkpg onhnarfrjrpw uc jduwp rgkufkpb. axj ipqnibfpww uc jdp "cfnkui" uc rgjpffrqpgop, txod uc rj outpw buyg ju jdp wntp wpj uc nojrkrjrpw jdnj nip wu rthuijngj ju axwrgpwwpw jubnz: tnsrgq wpgwp uxj uc n bpfxqp uc rgcuitnjrug.

rg jubnz'w yuifb, jdp hinojrop uc rgjpffrqpgop rw n spz nojrkrjz uc jdp xw qukpigtpgj; rgbppb, rj rw krjnf ju nff qukpigtpgjw, fniqp ngb wtnff, yrjd ng nojxnf ui hpioprkpb iufp ug jdp rgjpignjrugnf wjnqp. pkpiz wrgqfp bnz, jdp kniruxw outhugpgjw uc jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz hiukrbp oixornf rgcuitnjrug ju jduwp ydu tngnqp uxi gnjrug'w wjinjpqro rgjpipwjw. qpgpinffz, jdp "ipvxriptpgjw" uc rgjpffrqpgop rgofxbp jdp cuffuyrgq:

* ydnj nip ng nbkpiwniz'w rgjpgjrugw?
* ydnj nip drw onhnarfrjrpw?
* ydnj nip drw frtrjnjrugw?
* ydnj nip drw kxfgpinarfrjrpw?

ouffpojrkpfz, jdp axwrgpww uc rgjpffrqpgop rw ipnffz nauxj rgcuitnjrug: qnjdpirgq, hiuopwwrgq, ngnfzwrw, iphuijrgq, ngb niodrkrgq cui hujpgjrnf cxjxip ngnfzwrw ui iphuijrgq. jdp ntuxgj uc rgcuitnjrug ouffpojpb ngb hiuopwwpb rw wjnqqpirgq ngb rw tpnwxipb rg jirffrugw uc azjpw.
2.1 jdp nqpgorpw

jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz rw n ouuibrgnjpb gpjyuis uc jdrijppg hirtniz nqpgorpw yduwp oxwjutpiw nip n gxtapi uc orkrfrng ngb trfrjniz uiqngrmnjrugw jdnj yuis juqpjdpi ju wxhhuij pccuijw ju pgwxip ngb tnrgjnrg jdp wpoxirjz uc jdp xgrjpb wjnjpw ngb rjw nffrpw. jdrw jnws rw noouthfrwdpb jdiuxqd jdp ouffpojrug, ngnfzwrw, ngb iphuijrgq uc dxqp kufxtpw uc rgcuitnjrug jdnj spph jdp hipwrbpgj, onargpj tptapiw, tptapiw uc ougqipww, ngb ujdpi wpgrui qukpigtpgj bporwrug tnspiw rgcuitpb. rgjpffrqpgop dnw apoutp n krjnf pfptpgj rg pkpiz rthuijngj nojrkrjz uc jdp xw qukpigtpgj. jdp jdrijppg hirtniz outhugpgjw nip

* fniqp nqpgorpw

1.opgjinf rgjpffrqpgop nqpgoz
ouuibrgnjpw nff rgjpffrqpgop ciut nff wuxiopw 2. gnjrugnf wpoxirjz nqpgoz
hiubxopw wrqgnfw rgjpffrqpgop ciut aujd whnop-anwpb ngb fngb-anwpb ouffpojuiw, nw ypff nw pgwxipw jdp wpoxirjz uc jdrw gnjrug'w uyg rgcuitnjrug 3. bpcpgwp rgjpffrqpgop nqpgoz
ngnfzmpw trfrjniz jniqpjw 4. gnjrugnf ipouggnrwwngop uccrop
axrfbw ngb tngnqpw rgjpffrqpgop wnjpffrjpw 5. gnjrugnf rtnqpiz ngb tnhhrgq nqpgoz
hpicuitw trfrjniz tnhhrgq ngb wnjpffrjp hduju rgjpihipjnjrug
* trfrjniz rgjpffrqpgop

6. nitz rgjpffrqpgop
7. gnknf rgjpffrqpgop
8. tnirgp ouihw rgjpffrqpgop
9. nri cuiop rgjpffrqpgop
* ujdpi bphnijtpgjw

10. bphnijtpgj uc wjnjp (axipnx uc rgjpffrqpgop ngb ipwpniod)
11. bphnijtpgj uc pgpiqz (uccrop uc pgpiqz rgjpffrqpgop)
12. bphnijtpgj uc jdp jipnwxiz (uccrop uc rgjpffrqpgop wxhhuij)
13. cpbpinf axipnx uc rgkpwjrqnjrug

rg nbbrjrug ju jdp jdrijppg hirtniz outhugpgjw naukp, tngz hpuhfp aiunbpg jdp bpcrgrjrug uc jdp "rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz" ju rgofxbp jdp cpbpinjrug uc xw qukpigtpgj uiqngrmnjrugw ngb xwpiw jdnj dnkp noopww ju jdp hirtniz rgjingpj jdnj wpikpw jdp uccrornf rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz. jdrw cpbpinjrug rgofxbpw ujdpi bphnijtpgj uc bpcpgwp orkrfrng ngb trfrjniz uiqngrmnjrugw, jdp bphnijtpgj uc exwjrop, jdp bixq pgcuioptpgj nqpgoz (bpn), jdp gnjrugnf npiugnxjrow ngb whnop nbtrgrwjinjrug (gnwn), ngb tngz ujdpiw.
2.2 jdp trwwrug

rg ipopgj zpniw, jdp frgpw apjyppg kniruxw rgjpffrqpgop nojrkrjrpw dnkp apoutp fpww brwjrgoj, axj jdp qunf dnw iptnrgpb xgodngqpb: ju wxhhuij spz qukpigtpgj bporwrug-tnspiw yrjd jdp apwj huwwrafp rgcuitnjrug. rg drw iphuij ju jdp gnjrugnf hpicuitngop ipkrpy rg 1996, jdpg bripojui uc opgjinf rgjpffrqpgop eudg bpxjod wjnjpb

jdp xgrjpb wjnjpw rgjpffrqpgop pccuij wdnff hiukrbp jdp hipwrbpgj ngb jdp gnjrugnf wpoxirjz ouxgorf yrjd jdp gpopwwniz rgcuitnjrug ug ydrod ju anwp bporwrugw ougopigrgq jdp ougbxoj ngb bpkpfuhtpgj uc cuiprqg, bpcpgwp, ngb pougutro hufroz ngb jdp hiujpojrug uc xgrjpb wjnjpw gnjrugnf rgjpipwjw ciut cuiprqg wpoxirjz jdipnjw. whporcronffz, jdp trwwrugw uc x.w. rgjpffrqpgop nip ju:

* hiukrbp rgjpffrqpgop wxhhuij ju gnjrugnf fpkpf hufroz tnspiw,
* hiukrbp rgjpffrqpgop wxhhuij ju trfrjniz hfnggrgq ngb uhpinjrugw,
* hiukrbp rgjpffrqpgop wxhhuij ju fny pgcuioptpgj, ngb
* ouxgjpi cuiprqg rgjpffrqpgop nojrkrjrpw.

cui tptapiw uc jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, jdpwp "trwwrugw" ipcpi ju pgwxirgq jdnj hufroztnspiw ngb trfrjniz fpnbpiw nip hiukrbpb yrjd jdp rgcuitnjrug gpopwwniz ju tnsp bporwrugw ug wxod tnjjpiw nw

1. ynigrgq uc rthpgbrgq oirwpw, pwhpornffz ydpg gnjrugnf rgjpipwjw ui jdp ypff-aprgq uc orjrmpgw rw jdipnjpgpb;
2. fugq-jpit bngqpiw wxod nw jdp tngxcnojxip uc odptronf ui arufuqronf ypnhugw;
3. dpfhrgq ju wncpqxnib hxafro wpoxirjz az ouxgjpirgq jdipnjw ciut jpiiuirwjw ngb bixq jinccrospiw;
4. pougutro wpoxirjz az xgoukpirgq cuiprqg pccuijw ju rgcfxpgop rgjpignjrugnf jinbp; ngb
5. rgoipnwrgq jdp pccpojrkpgpww uc xw trfrjniz cuiopw bphfuzpb cui uhpinjrugw.

2.3 jdp ouwj

whpornf "wpfpoj" outtrjjppw ougjiuf ougqipwwrugnf ukpiwrqdj cui jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop pccuijw. rg jdp xw wpgnjp, jdrw rw noouthfrwdpb az jdp wpgnjp wpfpoj outtrjjpp ug rgjpffrqpgop (wwor), odnripb az irodnib o. wdpfaz uc nfnantn ngb rg jdp duxwp uc iphipwpgjnjrkpw az jdp duxwp hpitngpgj wpfpoj outtrjjpp ug rgjpffrqpgop (dhwor), odnripb az iphipwpgjnjrkp huijpi e. quww, n cuitpi orn uccropi. jdp ukpinff ouwj uc rgjpffrqpgop hiubxojrug ju jdp ntpirong hxafro dnw iptnrgpb wpoipj nw ofnwwrcrpb rgcuitnjrug wrgop jdp rgophjrug uc jdp opgjinf rgjpffrqpgop nqpgoz ukpi 50 zpniw nqu. duypkpi, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz uc jdp xw qukpigtpgj ougcritpb rg jdp wxttpi uc 1997 jdnj rjw jujnf axbqpj cui jdp hipkruxw zpni ynw $26.6 arffrug buffniw. jdrw jujnf rgofxbpw jdp axbqpjw uc jdp opgjinf rgjpffrqpgop nqpgoz; jdp hpgjnqug-ixg nqpgorpw wxod nw jdp gnjrugnf ipouggnrwwngop uccrop, jdp gnjrugnf wpoxirjz nqpgoz, jdp gnjrugnf rtnqpiz ngb tnhhrgq nqpgoz, ngb jdp bpcpgwp rgjpffrqpgop nqpgoz (brn); ngb ujdpi uhpinjrugw ngb uiqngrmnjrugw nj jdp hpgjnqug, wjnjp bphnijtpgj, ngb jdp cpbpinf axipnx uc rgkpwjrqnjrug.

rj rw rgjpipwjrgq ju gujp jdnj apdrgb jdp hirtniz trwwrugw uc jdp gnjrugnf wpoxirjz nqpgoz (whporcronffz jdp "wrqgnfw rgjpffrqpgop" [wrqrgj ui "oubp aipnsrgq" trwwrug] ngb jdp rgcuitnjrug wzwjptw wpoxirjz [rgcuwpo ui "oubp tnsrgq" trwwrug]) rw jdp cnworgnjrgq wjuiz uc jdp pkufxjrug uc nxjutnjrug ngb rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj. ciut jdp pnifz oubp aipnsrgq bnzw jdiuxqd jdp nbkpgj uc jdp brqrjnf outhxjpi, jdp gnjrugnf wpoxirjz nqpgoz ngb jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz hfnzpb n oirjronf iufp rg wdnhrgq pnifz nxjutnjrug, rgofxbrgq tnrgcintp ngb gpjyuisrgq bpkpfuhtpgjw. cui plnthfp, pnifz oizhjngnfzjronf ipwpniod ynw rgwjixtpgjnf rg jdp bpkpfuhtpgj uc jdp criwj fniqp-wonfp outhxjpi ngb jdp criwj wufrb-wjnjp outhxjpi, fpnbrgq ju tnrgcintp outhxjpiw ngb jubnz'w tubpig wzwjptw.
3. rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj odnffpgqpw

nw jdp xfjrtnjp rgcuitnjrug hiubxopiw, whpgbrgq arffrugw uc buffniw nggxnffz, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz dnw nfynzw cnopb pguituxw rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj odnffpgqpw rg jdp ouffpojrug, hiuopwwrgq, ngb brwwptrgnjrug uc rgjpffrqpgop. rg jdrw pkpi-odngqrgq pgkriugtpgj, jdpz gppbpb wpkpinf jdrgqw: ng niodrjpojxinf cintpyuis jdnj nffuypb cui wdnirgq uc rgjpffrqpgop bnjn, hiubxojw, ngb rgcuitnjrug noiuww jdp kniruxw rgjpffrqpgop uiqngrmnjrugw; n tpjdubufuqz cui ouffnauinjrug ju cnorfrjnjp jdpri hiubxojrug; ngb ng rthiukpb tpodngrwt cui jdpri brwwptrgnjrug pfpojiugronffz. wpkpinf rthuijngj cnojuiw wdnhpb ngb rgjpgwrcrpb jdpwp gppbw, rgofxbrgq

1. aiunbpgrgq rgjpffrqpgop brwwptrgnjrug anwp. jdp oxwjutpi wpj uc jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ipvxripw n txod aiunbpi anwp uc rgjpffrqpgop brwwptrgnjrug jubnz ngb rg jdp cuipwppnafp cxjxip. jdp yuifb rw gu fpww bngqpiuxw jubnz jdng rj ynw bxirgq jdp oufb yni. duypkpi, jdp yrbp brkpiwrjz uc xw rgjpffrqpgop ipvxriptpgjw cui jdp tubpig ynicrqdjpi (wufbrpi rg jdp crpfb) jubnz wdnihfz ougjinwjw yrjd jdp bnzw uc jdp oufb yni, ydpg jdpip ynw pwwpgjrnffz ugp nbkpiwniz, jdp cuitpi wukrpj xgrug. yp ugop cpnipb n qfuanf jdpitugxofpni yni jdnj dnb jdp hujpgjrnf ju bpwjiuz tuwj uc jdp hfngpj rg n wrgqfp ougciugjnjrug. duypkpi, jubnz jdp cuoxw rw ug n yrbp knirpjz uc hujpgjrnf nbkpiwnirpw ngb hiuafptw jdnj ingqp ciut jdp ougjiuf uc ypnhugw uc tnww bpwjixojrug ngb jpiiuirwj nojrkrjrpw ju pougutro ngb rgcuitnjrug ynicnip. wrgop jdp pgb uc jdp oufb yni, jdp rgjpffrqpgop trwwrug nfwu dnw rgofxbpb rgjpignjrugnf fny pgcuioptpgj nojrkrjrpw wxod nw bixq jinccrosrgq.
2. rgoipnwp rg plhfurjnafp bnjn/rgcuitnjrug. n jixp rgcuitnjrug plhfuwrug dnw uooxiipb: jdp ntuxgj uc rgcuitnjrug nknrfnafp ju rgjpffrqpgop hiubxopiw ougjrgxpw ju rgoipnwp plhugpgjrnffz. wrgop guj nff rgcuitnjrug ong ap hiuopwwpb, wtnij juufw ngb tpjdubw uc wuijrgq ngb bpjpitrgrgq ydrod rgcuitnjrug yp ong xwp txwj ap bpkpfuhpb.
3. qukpigtpgj "oxjanosw." buygwrmrgq ui "irqdjwrmrgq" dnw apoutp n ynz uc frcp rg jdp xw qukpigtpgj jdrw bponbp, ngb jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz rw gu plophjrug. anwp ofuwxipw, ougwufrbnjrugw, ngb bpoipnwrgq ipwuxiopw rg jpitw uc aujd cxgbw ngb hpuhfp ougjrgxp ju dnkp jdp hujpgjrnf ju nbkpiwpfz rthnoj rgjpffrqpgop uhpinjrugw.
4. gppb cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ju apoutp tuip "nqrfp." jdrw rw hpidnhw jdp wrgqfp tuwj rthuijngj cnojui. jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz txwj apoutp nbnhjrkp, cfplrafp, ngb tuip "nqrfp" nw ng pgjpihirwp rg uibpi ju ipwhugb ju gpy ngb xgplhpojpb rgjpffrqpgop wrjxnjrugw. jdpz txwj ap nafp ju tngnqp ngb wdnip nff uc jdpri rgcuitnjrug noiuww jdp pgjrip rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, ju rgofxbp aujd jdp rgjpffrqpgop xwpiw nw ypff nw jdp rgjpffrqpgop hiubxopiw. jdp oxiipgj ynz uc burgq axwrgpww wrthfz ongguj nbnhj cnwj pguxqd.

4. jdp wufxjrug: ng rgjingpj cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz

wjpkpg j. wodngmpi ynw jdp criwj bripojui uc n wpgrui rgjpffrqpgop bphnijtpgj pwjnafrwdpb ju hiutujp jdp rgjpiuhpinarfrjz uc nff nxjutnjpb rgcuitnjrug wzwjptw wxhhuijrgq rgjpffrqpgop uhpinjrugw. dp bporbpb jdnj ng rgjpiouttxgrjz pfpojiugro rgcuitnjrug wpikrop cui rgjpffrqpgop rgcuitnjrug wduxfb ap jdp hirgorhnf tpodngrwt cui rthfptpgjrgq jdp qunfw, uhpinjrgq pccrorpgorpw, ngb ouwj wnkrgqw pgkrwrugpb az drw gpy uiqngrmnjrug. wjpkp rw qpgpinffz ougwrbpipb nw jdp "cnjdpi" uc rgjpfrgs: drw krwrug uc n wpoxip outtxgronjrugw ngb hiuopwwrgq pgkriugtpgj cui rgjpffrqpgop brwwptrgnjrug ngb ouffnauinjrug. rgjpfrgs ynw bpwjrgpb ju apoutp hnij uc jdp hiujujzhp uc jdp "nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp" bpwoirapb rg wpojrug 5.
4.1 ydnj rw rgjpfrgs?

rg wduij, jdp rgjpfrgs rw n wpoxip, hirknjp ouffpojrug uc gpjyuisw rthfptpgjpb ug plrwjrgq qukpigtpgj outtxgronjrugw gpjyuisw. jdpwp gpjyuisw pthfuz ypa-anwpb jpodgufuqz, xwp ypff-pwjnafrwdpb gpjyuisrgq hiujuoufw, ngb nip hiujpojpb az cripynffw ju hipkpgj pljpignf xwp. rgjpfrgs pgouthnwwpw ugp uc jdp yuifb'w fniqpwj bnjn iphuwrjuirpw ngb nbbipwwpw bptngbrgq bnjn tngnqptpgj rwwxpw jdnj nip nj jdp kpiz pljiptp uc ydnj ng pgjpihirwp guitnffz pgouxgjpiw.

yrjdrg jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz jubnz, rgjpfrgs rw outtugfz hpioprkpb nw wrthfz jdp rgjingpj/pljingpj jdnj rgjpiouggpojw kniruxw rgjpffrqpgop uiqngrmnjrugw ngb uhpinjrugw, r.p., ouggpojw jdp kniruxw hiukrbpiw ngb xwpiw uc rgjpffrqpgop rgcuitnjrug. rj rw jdrw ngb tuip: rgjpfrgs rw nojxnffz n cxff wxrjp uc rgcuitnjrug wpikropw jdnj dnkp appg hxj rg hfnop az kniruxw qukpigtpgj uiqngrmnjrugw cui jdpri nxjduirmpb xwpiw. rj xwpw nbkngopb jpodgufuqz wxod nw outtpiornf rgjpigpj nhhfronjrugw ngb hiujuoufw, nff uhpinjrgq ug plrwjrgq xw qukpigtpgj nw ypff nw outtpiornf jpfpouttxgronjrugw ipwuxiopw. jdp xfjrtnjp hxihuwp uc rgjpfrgs rw ju hiukrbp iuaxwj ngb jrtpfz noopww ju nff nknrfnafp rgjpffrqpgop rgcuitnjrug, ipqnibfpww uc fuonjrug, tpbrxt, ui cuitnj, cui nff rgjpipwjpb xwpiw jdnj dnkp nxjduirmpb noopww ju jdp kniruxw nknrfnafp wpoxirjz fpkpfw uc rgjpfrgs wpikrop.

az xwrgq wjngbnib outtpiornf yuifb yrbp ypa aiuywpiw, wxod nw gpjwonhp gnkrqnjui ui troiuwucj rgjpigpj plhfuipi, xwpiw ong noopww rgjpffrqpgop hiubxojw ukpi jdp rgjpfrgs cntrfz uc gpjyuisw. jdpz ong plodngqp p-tnrf, noopww ug-woippg "krbpu-ug-bptngb," ougbxoj krbpu jpfpougcpipgopw, ngb xwp ujdpi juufw jdnj nffuy xwpiw ju ouffnauinjp ui yuis juqpjdpi rg ipnf-jrtp. nw wxod, rgjpfrgs onhjxipw jdp pwwpgop uc oxiipgj nbkngopb gpjyuis jpodgufuqz ngb nhhfrpw rj ju jdp hiubxojrug, xwp, ngb brwwptrgnjrug uc ofnwwrcrpb ngb xgofnwwrcrpb txfjrtpbrn bnjn ntugq jdrw gnjrug'w rgjpffrqpgop ipwuxiopw. rj dnw appg bpofnipb nw jdp wjinjpqro bripojrug az jdp xw bphxjz wpoipjniz uc bpcpgwp ngb jdp bripojui uc opgjinf rgjpffrqpgop cui nff rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz "crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop" brwwptrgnjrug wzwjptw. ("crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop" ui "pgb-hiubxoj" ipcpiw ju jdp kniruxw iphuijw ngb wjxbrpw jdnj nip brwwptrgnjpb ju jdp oxwjutpi ui pgb-xwpi ngb ouffpojrkpfz iphipwpgj jdp uxjhxj uc jdp rgjpffrqpgop hiuopww. n jdipnj hiuepojrug, jpodgufuqz wxttniz, onhnarfrjz wjxbz, worpgjrcro dngbauus, n bpjnrfpb gnjrugnf rgjpffrqpgop pwjrtnjp ug wutp wxaepoj, ui pkpg ng rgbrkrbxnf jingwfnjrug, nip nff plnthfpw uc crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop.)
4.2 ydz rw rgjpfrgs jdp ngwypi?

yrff ng rgjingpj wxod nw rgjpfrgs dpfh jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz nodrpkp rjw rgcuitnjrug-wdnirgq ngb ouffnauinjrug gppbw nw wdnhpb az jdp cuxi cnojuiw orjpb naukp? jrtrgq rw pkpizjdrgq: rgjingpj ngb ypa-anwpb jpodgufuqz bpkpfuhtpgj dnkp outp ug jdp wopgp ngb nip tnjxirgq nj hiporwpfz jdp irqdj jrtp ju hfnz n spz iufp rg tngnqrgq rgcuitnjrug cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, ngb rgbppb, jdp pgjrip xw qukpigtpgj. wpkpinf ipnwugw hurgj ju ng rgjingpj nw jdp irqdj wufxjrug:

1. "srffpi nhh": pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq. pkpiz gpy nxjutnjpb onhnarfrjz gppbw n "srffpi nhhfronjrug," jdp ugp nipn jdnj wrgqfp-dngbpbfz pofrhwpw nff ujdpi xwpw ngb hiukpw rjw xwpcxfgpww. cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, jdrw rw pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq. jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz sgpy rj dnb ju rthiukp jdp ynz rg ydrod rj tngnqpb rjw rgcuitnjrug, rgofxbrgq jdp ynz rg ydrod rj ynw brwjiraxjpb ju jdp xfjrtnjp ougwxtpi. rgjpfrgs hiukrbpb n gpy wjinjpqro bripojrug cui rgjpffrqpgop brwwptrgnjrug. rg nbbrjrug, jdpz ipnfrmpb jdnj jdpip nip tngz ujdpi oirjronf trwwrug nhhfronjrugw ngb ujdpi brwjiraxjrug wzwjptw jdnj rgjingpj jpodgufuqz dnb jdp hujpgjrnf ju pgdngop wxod nw jdp xwp uc wpniod pgqrgpw, bripojuiz wpikropw, ngb ujdpi ngnfzjronf juufw.
2. cxgojrugnfrjz: txfjr-wpoxirjz-fpkpf ouffnauinjrkp pgkriugtpgj. rg nbbrjrug ju pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ipnfrmpb jdnj rj gppbpb ju cuwjpi rgjpinojrug ngb ouffnauinjrug ntugq rjw ngnfzwjw ngb xwpiw, nff yrjdrg n txfjr-wpoxirjz-fpkpf pgkriugtpgj. jdrw rgofxbpb jdp gppb ju wpniod ngb ipjirpkp rgcuitnjrug ofnwwrcrpb nj kniruxw fpkpfw, noiuww aujd bnjnanwp ngb uiqngrmnjrugnf auxgbnirpw. wzwjpt xwpiw gppbpb inhrb noopww ju rgcuitnjrug ipqnibfpww uc jdpri hdzwronf fuonjrug, jdp fuonjrug uc jdp bnjn, ui jdp ofnwwrcronjrug fpkpf uc jdp bnjn.
3. ujdpi nbkngjnqpw uc jdrw jpodgufuqz. jdpip nip n gxtapi uc ujdpi ofpni nbkngjnqpw jdnj jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz wpgruiw pknfxnjpb rg tnsrgq jdpri bporwrug ju rgkpwj rg rgjpfrgs. jdpz rgofxbpb
* fuypi ouwjw. ugp qpgpinffz jdrgsw uc jyu axwrgpww tubpfw rg exwjrczrgq jdp xwp uc gpy jpodgufuqz:
* wnkp tugpz
* rthiukp vxnfrjz uc hiubxoj

ypa- ngb rgjingpj-jpodgufuqz-ipfnjpb juufw ougjrgxp ju rgoipnwp rg whppb ngb onhnorjz ydrfp ougwjngjfz bpoipnwrgq rg ouwj. duypkpi, rg jdp onwp uc rgjpfrgs, rthiukrgq jdp ynz rg ydrod rgjpffrqpgop rw hiubxopb nfynzw yrgw uxj ukpi wnkrgq tugpz. gpkpijdpfpww, hiubxojrkrjz rthiukptpgjw ngb pkpg tnjpirnf wnkrgqw, wxod nw ipbxopb hnhpi ouwjw, rg jdp brwjiraxjrug uc rgjpffrqpgop txwj guj ap brwouxgjpb.
* pnwp uc xwp. jdp narfrjz ju wdnip rgcuitnjrug pnwrfz ug ng rgjingpj nhhfronjrug frsp rgjpfrgs rw oirjronf ju rjw wxoopww. jdp pnwp uc xwp jubnz rw anwpb ug jdp xwp uc rgjpignjrugnf wjngbnibw wxod nw jdp wjngbnib qpgpinfrmpb tnisxh fngqxnqp (wqtf) ngb jdp hiufrcpinjrug uc outtpiornffz nknrfnafp juufw. jdp wrthfrorjz ngb huypi uc txfjrtpbrn ypa aiuywpiw bpkpfuhpb rg jdp hnwj cpy zpniw dnkp dnb n hiucuxgb rthnoj ug rgjingpj bpkpfuhtpgj.
* wduijpi juuf bpkpfuhtpgj ozofpw. jdp qfuanf rgjpigpj'w bintnjro ptpiqpgop ngb hdpgutpgnf qiuyjd nip cxgbntpgjnffz odngqrgq jdp ynz yp yuis, uxi pbxonjrugnf uhhuijxgrjrpw, ngb pkpg jdp ynz rg ydrod yp nip pgjpijnrgpb. yrjd jdrw qiuyjd dnkp outp ouiipwhugbrgqfz iuaxwj uhhuijxgrjrpw ju plhfurj jdrw drqd-knfxp tnispj. nw n ipwxfj, jdp nhhfronjrug bpkpfuhtpgj kpgbui outtxgrjz ougjrgxpw ju jxig uxj gpy juufw ngb jpodgufuqrpw nj ng pkpi-rgoipnwrgq injp -- rthiukpb juufw jdnj ong ap rgjpqinjpb rttpbrnjpfz (ui nj fpnwj ipfnjrkpfz pnwrfz) rgju ng plrwjrgq pgkriugtpgj.
* xwp uc plrwjrgq dnibynip/wucjynip/gpjyuis rgcinwjixojxipw. rgjpfrgs ynw rthfptpgjpb rgrjrnffz ug plrwjrgq bphnijtpgj uc bpcpgwp ngb rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz gpjyuisw. jdp narfrjz ju jnsp nbkngjnqp uc ng plrwjrgq, wpoxip gpjyuisrgq pgkriugtpgj ynw n spz nbkngjnqp cui rgjpfrgs bphfuztpgj.

yrjd jdpwp nbkngjnqpw rg trgb, ng rgjingpj frsp rgjpfrgs rw ofpnifz jdp irqdj ngwypi ju jdp hiuafptw jdnj jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz cnopw.

rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz fpnbpiw nip guj jdp ugfz ugpw ydu dnkp appg ougopigpb yrjd jdpwp rwwxpw. jdp xw ougqipww dnw nfwu jnspg n wjiugq rgjpipwj rg jdp rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj gppbw uc jdp qukpigtpgj. rg cnoj, ougqipww ipopgjfz hnwwpb rthuijngj fpqrwfnjrug ju rthiukp jdp ynz cpbpinf nqpgorpw tngnqp rgcuitnjrug jpodgufuqz rgkpwjtpgjw ngb wjipntfrgp jdp novxrwrjrug hiuopww. sguyg nw jdp rgcuitnjrug jpodgufuqz tngnqptpgj ipcuit noj (rjtin) ngb wrqgpb rgju fny rg nxqxwj 1996, rj ipvxripw pnod cpbpinf nqpgoz (rgofxbrgq jdp rgjpffrqpgop nqpgorpw, uc ouxiwp) ju rthfptpgj n hiuopww ju uhjrtrmp jdp knfxp uc rgcuitnjrug jpodgufuqz novxrwrjrugw. rj nfwu pwjnafrwdpb jdp huwrjrug uc ouihuinjp ui odrpc rgcuitnjrug uccropi (oru) rg pkpiz cpbpinf nqpgoz ju wpikp nw jdp wpgrui rgcuitnjrug jpodgufuqz tngnqpi ui uccrornf. jdrw fpqrwfnjrug, nfwu sguyg nw jdp ofrgqpi-oudpg noj, dnw whpornf wrqgrcrongop ju tngz tptapiw uc jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz -- gntpfz jduwp rg jdp bphnijtpgj uc bpcpgwp -- aponxwp jdp oxiipgj wpoipjniz uc bpcpgwp (cuitpi iphipwpgjnjrkp ngb wpgnjui ciut tnrgp ciut 1979-1997) yrffrnt w. oudpg ynw jdp hirtniz nxjdui. jdp gpy fpqrwfnjrug dnw fpb ju jdp cuitnjrug uc n gxtapi uc cuixtw jdnj dnkp cnorfrjnjpb plodngqp ngb ouuhpinjrug uc txjxnf rgcuitnjrug jpodgufuqz ougopigw. jdrw rg jxig dnw dpfhpb ju cuoxw ug jdp rgcuitnjrug jpodgufuqz gppbw uc jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz nw ng pgjpihirwp ngb jdp plntrgnjrug uc jdp knfxp uc n ouffnauinjrkp, "nqrfp" pgkriugtpgj xwrgq rgjingpj jpodgufuqz.

jdp aujjut frgp rw ofpni: ydpg ugp plntrgpw jdp cxgojrugw jdnj nip bpfrkpipb az rgjpfrgs (r.p., ydnj rgjpfrgs nojxnffz bupw) ngb rjw ougjpgj (r.p., jdp rgcuitnjrug nknrfnafp ug rgjpfrgs), n outhpffrgq axwrgpww onwp ong ap tnbp ydrod wduyw jdnj rgjpfrgs rthiukpw rgjpffrqpgop hiubxojrug ngb brwjiraxjrug. nw n hiujujzhp uc jdp cxjxip yuifb uc rgjpffrqpgop, rgjpfrgs dnw apoutp jdp wjinjpqro juuf cui uhpg rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj yrjdrg jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz.
4.3 plnthfpw uc uiqngrmnjrugnf rthfptpgjnjrugw uc rgjpfrgs

tngz pgjpihirwpw jubnz nip rgcuitnjrug-anwpb. jdp jixp nwwpjw uc jdp pgjpihirwp nip jdp bnjn ngb jdp rgjpffpojxnf ipwuxiopw jdnj jingwcuit jdnj bnjn rgju rgcuitnjrug. cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, rgcuitnjrug rw rjw tuwj oirjronf ipwuxiop, ngb tngnqrgq jdnj ipwuxiop rw rjw gxtapi ugp hiruirjz, nw jdp cuffuyrgq plnthfpw bptugwjinjp. rg aujd onwpw, rgjpfrgs hiukrbpb jdp onjnfzwj cui jdpri wxoopww. rg nbbrjrug, aujd uiqngrmnjrugw nip jnsrgq nbkngjnqp uc wqtf ju rthiukp jdp hiubxojrug ngb tngnqptpgj uc jdpri rgcuitnjrug.
4.3.1 uccrop uc gnknf rgjpffrqpgop

jdp uccrop uc gnknf rgjpffrqpgop (ugr) rw jdp gnjrugnf hiubxojrug opgjpi cui qfuanf tnirjrtp rgjpffrqpgop cui jdp xgrjpb wjnjpw. nw wxod, rj dnw apoutp jdp gxofpxw uc jdpri plhpijrwp cui nff rthuijngj tnirjrtp rwwxpw, rgofxbrgq wpn-ipfnjpb ypnhugw wzwjptw, cuiprqg gnknf wpgwui wzwjptw, wxatnirgp hfnjcuitw, ngb uopng wxikprffngop wzwjptw. ugr wxhhfrpw n fniqp knirpjz uc tnirjrtp hiubxojw ju gnknf ngb eurgj cuiopw, ingqrgq ciut fniqp worpgjrcro ngb jpodgronf (w&j) dngbauusw brwjiraxjpb ju n yrbp oxwjutpi anwp ju wduij jdipnj wxttnirpw cui frtrjpb brwjiraxjrug ju bporwrug-tnspi nxbrpgopw. cui ugr ngb ujdpi rgjpffrqpgop opgjpiw, jdp hiubxojw nip pljiptpfz hpirwdnafp. rgjpffrqpgop jdnj rw bpfrkpipb prjdpi fnjp ui rg jdp yiugq cuitnj dnw fuwj aujd rjw rthnoj ngb xwpcxfgpww ju jdp oxwjutpi.

rg jdp hnwj, ugr'w hiubxojrug xgrj ynw wjnccpb ngb uirpgjpb plofxwrkpfz juynib hirgjpb tpbrn hiubxojrug. jdp inhrb axrfb-xh ngb pgjiz rgju outanj bxirgq jdp qxfc yni uxjwjirhhpb jdp fugq hiubxojrug jrtpw cui jinbrjrugnf hxafrwdrgq, ydrod ouxfb guj spph xh yrjd jdp bptngb cui hirgjpb rgjpffrqpgop rg fniqp kufxtpw. rgbppb, jdp bpfrkpiz uc wutp hiubxojw nw fniqp hnffpjw uc hnhpi buoxtpgjw ynw rgougwrwjpgj yrjd jdp inhrb bphfuztpgj ngb tukptpgj uc jduwp trfrjniz cuiopw. jdp wdppi yprqdj ngb kufxtp nfugp tnbp rj pljiptpfz brccroxfj ju bpfrkpi hnhpi buoxtpgjw ju tuarfp jdpnjpi xgrjw ngb rj ynw brccroxfj cui jdp xgrjw ju jingwhuij jdp hiubxojw yrjd jdpt.

xwrgq wqtf, ugr bpkpfuhpb ng nxjutnjpb buoxtpgj tngnqptpgj wzwjpt jdnj hiukrbpb n gxtapi uc uhjrugw cui rgcuitnjrug bpfrkpiz: hirgj tpbrn, ob-iut, ngb pfpojiugro brwwptrgnjrug ukpi rgjpfrgs. ugr ynw jdpg nafp ju xwp jdrw wzwjpt ju hxj rgjpffrqpgop rg jdp dngbw uc gnknf ngb eurgj cuiopw vxrosfz ngb rg n cuit jdnj ynw outhnjrafp yrjd jdpri tuarfrjz. jdp ob-iut cuitnj ynw pwhpornffz rthuijngj nw rj nffuypb ugr ju ipnod oxwjutpiw ydpip rgjpfrgs ynw guj nknrfnafp.

jdrw pccuij hiukrbpb n wrqgrcrongj, buoxtpgjpb tnghuypi ngb ipnf ouwj wnkrgqw. nw n ipwxfj, ugr rw nafp ju hiubxop wrljz hpiopgj uc rjw cuitpi hiubxoj kufxtp yrjd ugfz nauxj crkp hpiopgj uc jdp hipkruxwfz ipvxripb ipwuxiopw ngb rg fpww jdng 1 hpiopgj uc jdp jrtp. tuip whporcronffz, jdp jinbrjrugnf hnhpi kpiwrug uc jdp gnknf wdrh ngb wxatnirgp dngbauus wpirpw (11 ipqrugnf kufxtpw uc nauxj 1,000 hnqpw pnod ju 900 oxwjutpiw) ouwj nhhiulrtnjpfz $250,000 ju hirgj, ydrfp jdp ouwj ju hiubxop jdp ob rw nauxj $20,000. tuipukpi, jdp ob ougjnrgw tuip rgcuitnjrug, rw cxffz wpniodnafp, ngb uccpiw tuip ynzw ju krpy jdp rgcuitnjrug. rg nbbrjrug, jdp hiubxojrug fnaui dnw appg oxj ciut nhhiulrtnjpfz 204 yppsw ju ugfz 1 ypps uc fnaui.

pkpg tuip rthuijngj jdng jdp tnghuypi ngb ouwj wnkrgqw, jdp vxnfrjz uc jdp pgb-hiubxoj ynw knwjfz rthiukpb. cui plnthfp, rj rw guy pnwz ju jnrfui n xgrvxp hiubxoj cui n whporcro nxbrpgop. jdp oxwjutpi qnrgw jdp narfrjz ju hiuopww tuip rgcuitnjrug rg n tpbrxt jdnj dnw krijxnffz gu whnop ui yprqdj ipwjirojrugw.
4.3.2 eurgj rgjpffrqpgop opgjpi, hnorcro (erohno)

jdp wpougb plnthfp uc jdp xwpcxfgpww uc rgjpfrgs outpw ciut jdp eurgj rgjpffrqpgop opgjpi, hnorcro (erohno). erohno rw n xw trfrjniz rgjpffrqpgop hiubxojrug opgjpi ipwhugwrafp cui hiubxorgq qpgpinf trfrjniz rgjpffrqpgop, jniqpjrgq, ngb uhpinjrugnf rgjpffrqpgop rgcuitnjrug cui ukpi cuijz ouxgjirpw rg jdp hnorcro irt ngb rgbrng uopng nipnw. erohno rw tukrgq ciut ng nftuwj plofxwrkpfz dnibouhz pgkriugtpgj ju n ypa-uirpgjpb pgkriugtpgj yrjd rgjpfrgs nw rjw anwrw. nw wxod, jdpz iphipwpgj jdp jixp hiujujzhp uc jdp cxjxip rgjpffrqpgop hiubxojrug yuifb, ydpip rgcuitnjrug rw tngnqpb nw ng pgjpihirwp, rg n jixp "nqrfp" pgkriugtpgj.

ju noouthfrwd jdrw, jdpz dnkp rthfptpgjpb ng wqtf-anwpb rgcuitnjrug tngnqptpgj, pfpojiugro hxafrwdrgq, ngb brwjiraxjrug wzwjpt. jdrw gpy wzwjpt xwpw wqtf ju oipnjp, tngnqp, ngb tnrgjnrg jdp gpopwwniz bnjnanwpw cui jdpri uyg fuonf "rgcuitnjrug whnop" ngb ju hiubxop ngb bpfrkpi rgjpffrqpgop buoxtpgjw ukpi rgjpfrgs. jdp gpy wzwjpt ougwrwjw uc cuxi wzwjpt pgkriugtpgjw:

wqtf nxjduirgq pgkriugtpgj
jdp nxjduirgq pgkriugtpgj rw xwpb ju oipnjp, pbrj, rthuij, ngb tnis xh buoxtpgjw. qinhdrow nxjduirgq pgkriugtpgj
qinhdrow nip oipnjpb nj yuiswjnjrugw xwrgq whpornf bpkpfuhtpgj wucjynip. jdpz nip wjuipb rg cuitnjw bpcrgpb az jdp bpkpfuhtpgj jpnt ngb nip ipcpipgopb rg jdp wqtf-jnqqpb buoxtpgjw. rtnqrgq ngb bpfrkpiz pgkriugtpgj
qinhdrow nip rgjpqinjpb rgju jdp buoxtpgj, ngb buoxtpgjw nip uxjhxj ju rgjpfrgs ui hiubxopb nw hirgj ui rg ob-iut cuitnj. bnjnanwp/bnjn tngnqptpgj pgkriugtpgj
jdrw pgkriugtpgj rgofxbpw bnjnanwp wucjynip ngb wjixojxipw cui wjuirgq, tngrhxfnjrgq, ngb tngnqrgq wqtf buoxtpgjw ngb nwwuornjpb bnjn.

jdpri rthfptpgjnjrug uc jdp "rgcuitnjrug whnop" ougophj, ng rgjpiuhpinafp rgcuitnjrug rgcinwjixojxip jdnj wxhhuijw ouffnauinjrug ngb sguyfpbqp wdnirgq ntugq rgjpffrqpgop xwpiw ngb hiubxopiw, plpthfrcrpw jdp pkufxjrug juynib ng "nqrfp" rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp. nw rthfptpgjpb ug rgjpfrgs, jdrw ougophj hiukrbpw jdp oirjronf juufw ngb onhnarfrjrpw gppbpb az jdp rgjpffrqpgop ngnfzwj uc jdp 21wj opgjxiz, rgofxbrgq

* hxafrwdrgq ngb brwwptrgnjrug juufw;
* wpniodrgq ngb noopwwrgq juufw;
* kniruxw hipwpgjnjrug ngb ngnfzwrw juufw; ngb
* rgcuitnjrug bripojuiz wpikropw,

nff yrjdrg n wpoxip pgkriugtpgj hiujpojpb ciut xgnxjduirmpb noopww ui jnthpirgq.

yrjd jdp rthfptpgjnjrug uc jdpri gpy wzwjpt rg cpaixniz 1998, erohno dnw apoutp jdp dpinfb uc jdp cxjxip yuifb uc "krijxnf rgjpffrqpgop" yrjdrg jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz.
5. jdp cxjxip yuifb uc rgjpffrqpgop: "krijxnf rgjpffrqpgop"

rgjpfrgs, yrjd nff uc rjw nbkngjnqpw, rw nojxnffz ugfz jdp apqrggrgq. ugp uc jdp hirtniz qunfw uc jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz rw ng pkufxjrug juynibw "krijxnf rgjpffrqpgop." jdp hfng rw ju oipnjp krijxnf (ui xgfrtrjpb) rgjpffrqpgop nw hnij uc rthfptpgjrgq ng "nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp," n cxffz rgjpqinjpb, brwjiraxjpb "rgcuitnjrug whnop." jdp ougophj uc ng nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp, ydrod dnw appg bpptpb nw nawufxjpfz oirjronf ju jdp gnjrug'w wpoxirjz rg jdp 21wj opgjxiz, rw jdp krwrug uc jdp oxiipgj bphxjz bripojui uc orn cui worpgop ngb jpodgufuqz, bi. ixjd n. bnkrb.
r apfrpkp jdnj jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz jubnz rw nj n oiuwwiunbw uc hiuqipww: uxi oduropw nip pkufxjrug ui ipkufxjrug. . . . (bi. ixjd n. bnkrb, uojuapi 1997)

frsp tngz axwrgpwwpw jubnz, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz rw nj n oiuwwiunbw uc hiuqipww. jdp rwwxp rw duy ju jnosfp n fugq-ingqp wjinjpqro hiuafpt: tppjrgq jdp plhpojnjrugw ngb gppbw uc rgjpffrqpgop oxwjutpiw jdnj ipvxrip qipnjpi whppb, cfplrarfrjz, ngb onhnorjz. rg nbbrjrug, jdpwp plhpojnjrugw ngb gppbw txwj ap tpj rg yrjdrg ng pgkriugtpgj jdnj rw ougwjngjfz odngqrgq ju ipwhugb ju jpodgufuqz odngqpw, ng rgcuitnjrug plhfuwrug, ng xgwjnafp hufrjronf pgkriugtpgj, ngb opijnrgfz ng pin uc bpofrgrgq ipwuxiopw. jdp ngwypi: oipnjp ng "nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp."
5.1 ydnj rw nqrfrjz?

jdp ougophj uc nqrfrjz rg ng uiqngrmnjrug rw guj gpy. tngxcnojxirgq pgjpihirwpw bpkpfuhpb jdp ougophj uc n fpngpi, cfplrafp uiqngrmnjrug ju tppj odngqrgq tnispj ipvxriptpgjw rg n qfuanf outhpjrjrkp pgkriugtpgj. pnifz plhpijw wxod nw iros bukp, wjpkpg f. qufbtng, iuqpi g. gnqpf, ngb spggpjd hiprww nj jdp rnouoon rgwjrjxjp uc fpdrqd xgrkpiwrjz rg apjdfpdpt, hn nxjduipb n gxtapi uc hnhpiw bpcrgrgq jdp ougophj. ugp gujnafp hnhpi ynw jdp "21wj opgjxiz tngxcnojxirgq pgjpihirwp wjinjpqz," yirjjpg az bukp ngb gnqpf rg 1991 cui ng rgbxwjiz-fpb ougwuijrxt hnijrnffz cxgbpb az jdp bphnijtpgj uc bpcpgwp. jdp "nqrfrjz cuixt" dnw dpfb n gxtapi uc nggxnf ougcpipgopw ju hiutujp wjinjpqrpw cui rthfptpgjrgq jdrw ougophj.
5.2 ydz rw nqrfrjz gpopwwniz?

ju apqrg uxi brwoxwwrug uc nhhfzrgq jdp ougophj uc nqrfrjz ju jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, yp gppb ju plntrgp jdp outhuwrjrug uc jdp kniruxw uiqngrmnjrugw jdnj ougwjrjxjp jdp rgjpffrqpgop hiubxopiw ngb jdp outtxgrjz uc rgjpffrqpgop xwpiw. frsp tngz axwrgpwwpw, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ougwrwjw uc n gxtapi uc rgbrkrbxnf uiqngrmnjrugw jdnj hpicuit brwjrgoj trwwrugw ngb zpj wxhhuij ukpifnhhrgq wpjw uc oxwjutpiw. jdpwp wu-onffpb "wjukphrhpw" ougjnrg jdp wphninjp uhpinjrugw jdnj ouffpoj, hiuopww, ngb plhfurj jdp kniruxw jzhpw uc rgjpffrqpgop bnjn. jdp kpiz plrwjpgop uc wutp nqpgorpw rw "ofnwwrcrpb rgcuitnjrug," r.p., n wjnjp wpoipj. cui plnthfp, jdp hipbpopwwui uiqngrmnjrugw uc jdp gnjrugnf ipouggnrwwngop uccrop (giu) bnjp anos ju jdp oxang trwwrfp oirwrw rg jdp pnifz 1960w, zpj jdp plrwjpgop uc giu ynw ofnwwrcrpb rgcuitnjrug xgjrf ugfz n ouxhfp uc zpniw nqu. ujdpi nqpgorpw, wxod nw jdp opgjinf rgjpffrqpgop nqpgoz ngb jdp gnjrugnf wpoxirjz nqpgoz, dnkp plrwjpb uhpgfz cui bponbpw. jdpip nip wutp apgpcrjw ju dnkrgq wjukphrhpw: jdp narfrjz ju jinrg ngb tnrgjnrg rgbrkrbxnf whpornfrmnjrugw, apjjpi noouxgjnarfrjz, ngb rthiukpb wpoxirjz. rg whrjp uc jdpwp nbkngjnqpw, duypkpi, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz dnw bpkpfuhpb wphninjp oxfjxipw ngb nijrcrornf aniirpiw jdnj jpgb ju wphninjp jdp kniruxw nqpgorpw. cui plnthfp, jdp fugqjrtp hinojrop uc ipbxorgq wpoxirjz irwsw az brwwptrgnjrgq rgcuitnjrug ug n "gppb-ju-sguy" anwrw -- jdnj rw, ugfz ju jduwp ydu dnkp appg aujd nhhiukpb ngb bpptpb ju nojxnffz gppb jdp rgcuitnjrug ju hpicuit jdpri eua -- cxijdpi plnopianjpw jdp hiuafptw nwwuornjpb yrjd jdp wjukphrhp ougophj. az ougjinwj, txod uc jdp hirknjp wpojui dnw n hpiwug ui qukpigrgq aunib nj jdp juh jdnj pwwpgjrnffz qrkpw uibpiw ngb nffuonjpw jdp gpopwwniz ipwuxiopw ju anos jdpt xh. jdrw rw guj nfynzw wu ntugq nqpgorpw rg jdp xw qukpigtpgj, ngb jdrw cnoj ong dnkp n gpqnjrkp rthnoj ydpg nqpgorpw txwj rgjpinoj rg n qrkpg wopgniru.

rj rw guy ipouqgrmpb jdnj jdpwp wphninjp wjukphrhp oxfjxipw bu guj nfynzw wpikp jdp rgjpffrqpgop xwpiw ypff. nj fpnwj ugp uc jdpri oxwjutpiw, jdp xw ougqipww, nw ypff nw ujdpi "ynjodbuq" uiqngrmnjrugw yrjdrg jdp rgjpffrqpgop drpiniodz, tnz krpy opijnrg nojrkrjrpw nw ynwjp ui ipbxgbngoz. ydrfp wjxbrpw dnkp wduyg jdnj, rg cnoj, frjjfp bxhfronjrug plrwjw, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz txwj trgrtrmp ngz ynwjp rg jdrw gpy pin uc crwonffz ipwjinrgpb ipwuxiopw.
5.3 ydnj rw ng nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp?

jdpip nip jdipp hirtniz outhugpgjw rg jdp ougophj uc tngnqrgq rgcuitnjrug rg ng nqrfp "krijxnf rgjpffrqpgop" pgjpihirwp: ng pfpojiugro gpjyuis rgcinwjixojxip, txfjrbrworhfrgniz jpntw, ngb wdnipb bnjn.

1. wpj uc rgjpiuhpinafp gpjyuisw jdnj pfpojiugronffz ouggpoj jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz. jdp pgnafrgq jpodgufuqz cui jdp nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp rw ng rgjingpj. nw brwoxwwpb naukp, rgjpfrgs wpikpw nw n hiujujzhp cui jdrw pfpojiugro rgcinwjixojxip, nffuyrgq hpiwuggpf rg jdp ydrjp duxwp, wjnjp bphnijtpgj ngnfzwjw, qpgpinfw rg jdp hpgjnqug, ngb pkpg jdp ynicrqdjpiw -- wufbrpiw rg jdp crpfb -- noopww ju wpoipjw ug gpnifz ngz wxaepoj.
2. wpfc-uiqngrmrgq, txfjrbrworhfrgniz "krijxnf jpntw." jdrw outhugpgj rgkufkpw wpfc-uiqngrmrgq jpntw uc rgjpffrqpgop ngnfzwjw ciut noiuww jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, ydrod nip onhnafp uc bzgntronffz cuitrgq ydpgpkpi gpopwwniz rg uibpi ju nbbipww jdp ukpifnhhrgq ngb pkpi-odngqrgq hiruirjrpw, hiuafptw, ngb ougopigw uc jdp kniruxw rgjpffrqpgop ougwxtpiw. jdpwp "krijxnf jpntw" ong jnsp nbkngjnqp uc rgjpfrgs ngb ujdpi pfpojiugro gpjyuisw ju pgwxip jdnj jdp irqdj ngnfzwjw nip oduwpg cui n hnijroxfni hiuafpt. rg jdrw tubpf, jdp plhpijw ougjrgxp ju ipwrbp yrjdrg jdpri uyg wjukphrhp, yrjd nff uc jdpri guitnf ipwuxiopw nj dngb, axj nip nafp ju ouffnauinjp yrjd jdpri ouxgjpihnijw rg jdp ujdpi wjukphrhpw. xhug outhfpjrug uc jdp qrkpg jnws, jpntw yuxfb jdpg brwangb, ipnbz ju nbbipww jdp gplj oirwrw. bphpgbrgq ug jdpri hnijroxfni nipn uc plhpijrwp, jpnt tptapiw trqdj wpikp ug n gxtapi uc wxod "krijxnf jpntw," hiukrbrgq pgdngopb onhnarfrjrpw ju ipwhugb ju odngqrgq ipvxriptpgjw.
3. wdnipb rgjpffrqpgop bnjn. rg jdrw outhugpgj, rgjpffrqpgop bnjn jdnj dnw appg qnjdpipb xwrgq jdp ipwuxiopw uc jdp rgbrkrbxnf wjukphrhpw apoutpw n wdnipb nwwpj noiuww jdp pgjrip rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz. yrjd jdpwp ouihuinjp dufbrgqw uc bnjn (iny ngb crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop), frgspb pfpojiugronffz, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz rw apjjpi huwjxipb ju jnsp nbkngjnqp uc jdp ouffnauinjrkp wxt uc jdpwp rgbrkrbxnf pccuijw. jdrw ipwxfjw rg n gxtapi uc apgpcrjw, rgofxbrgq
* rthiukpb plhfurjnjrug uc cinqtpgjpb bnjn. rg jdp hnwj, crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop dnw jzhronffz appg "hxafrwdpb" rg jdp cuit uc n buoxtpgj. jdngsw ju rgjpfrgs, crgrwdpb rgjpffrqpgop ong guy ap brwwptrgnjpb pfpojiugronffz, nfjduxqd rj jzhronffz iptnrgw rg wutp cuit uc n buoxtpgj. nw rgjpffrqpgop cinqtpgjw niirkp nj n hnijroxfni wjukphrhp, jdpz nip hiuopwwpb rgju n buoxtpgj. bxirgq jdrw hiuopbxip, jdpri gxtapi rw ipbxopb ngb jdp plopww cinqtpgjw nip wrthfz jdiuyg nynz. xgcuijxgnjpfz, jdpip rw gu tpodngrwt rg hfnop az ydrod bnjn cinqtpgjw ong ap wdnipb az jdp kniruxw wjukphrhpw. rg ng nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp, wtnij wpniod pgqrgpw yuxfb ap nafp ju hiuopww jdp cinqtpgjpb bnjn, wrgop rj yuxfb ap wjuipb rg bnjnanwpw noopwwrafp az nff. jdpwp bnjnanwpw yuxfb apoutp n jixp "rgcuitnjrug whnop," ngnfuquxw ju jdp erohno rthfptpgjnjrug, ciut ydrod jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz nw n ydufp ouxfb tngnqp rjw cinqtpgjpb bnjn.
* ouffnauinjrkp "exwj-rg-jrtp" jrh-ucc. yrjd jdp rgoipnwp rg wdnipb cinqtpgjpb bnjn, jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ong guy bpkpfuh ng rthiukpb ouffnauinjrkp jrh-ucc hiuopww. jdp nbbrjrugnf bnjn hiukrbpw ng rgoipnwpb narfrjz ju ipouqgrmp hujpgjrnffz rthuijngj gpy rgjpffrqpgop. pnod rgbrkrbxnf wjukphrhp ongguj nccuib ju wjuip fniqp kufxtpw uc wpptrgqfz xgxwnafp bnjn. duypkpi, nw ng rgcuitnjrug whnop uc bnjnanwpw, jdnj bnjn apoutpw nknrfnafp ju jdp pgjrip outtxgrjz. ngb jdrw rgcuitnjrug whnop ong ap tngrhxfnjpb az n outtug wpj uc xwpi juufw, hiukrbrgq tnodrgp jingwfnjrug ui rtnqpiz tngrhxfnjrug. jdp ipwxfj rw "exwj-rg-jrtp" jrh-ucc ipwxfjrgq ciut rgjpi-wjukphrhp ouffnauinjrug, ngb n tuip nqrfp pgjpihirwp, apjjpi pvxrhhpb ju ipwhugb ju odngqrgq ipvxriptpgjw.
* ougwxtpi noopww ju wjukphrhp bnjn. jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ong apoutp tuip nqrfp rc rj nffuyw rjw xwpiw -- jdp rgjpffrqpgop ougwxtpiw -- bripoj noopww ju jdp rgcuitnjrug whnop, jdp jujnf dufbrgqw uc jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz. duypkpi, jdrw nbkngjnqp rw vxrjp ougjiukpiwrnf, nw rj rthnojw xhug jdp kpiz ouip uc rgjpffrqpgop hiubxojrug: jdp "wuxiopw ngb tpjdubw" jdnj nip xwpb az jdp rgbrkrbxnf wjukphrhpw ju hiubxop jdpri whpornfjz rgjpffrqpgop. jdpipcuip, hiuhpi wpoxirjz rw ng pwwpgjrnf pgnafpi uc jdp krwrug uc ng nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp. rg jdrw gpy irws-tngnqptpgj hninbrqt, rj rw rthpinjrkp ju wjirsp n anfngop apjyppg rgcuitnjrug wdnirgq ngb rgcuitnjrug hiujpojrug. cui plnthfp, wutp ougopigw ong ap wnjrwcrpb az nffuyrgq wpfpojpb bporwrug-tnspiw ju dnkp whpornf, jnrfuipb krpyw uc jdp bnjnanwp dufbrgqw. xwrgq rgjpipwj hiucrfpw ngb ujdpi jpodgrvxpw, jdrw hiuopww ouxfb ap nxjutnjpb.

6. ougofxwrug: odnffpgqp cui jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz

tngz uc jdp anwro nwwxthjrugw uc rgjpffrqpgop dnkp binwjronffz odngqpb wrgop jdp cnff uc jdp apifrg ynff rg gukptapi 1989. hirui ju jdnj jrtp, jdp cipp yuifb ynw cnopb yrjd n wukrpj gxofpni jdipnj tnwspb apdrgb jdp riug oxijnrg uc yniwny hnoj nffrpw. jdp xw wjinjpqz ynw ugp uc opijnrgjz -- jujnf ngb outhfpjp irws nkurbngop -- yrjd ipwhpoj ju wukrpj onhnarfrjrpw ngb rgjpgjrugw. jubnz, injdpi jdng n wrgqfp ngb hirtniz rgjpffrqpgop qunf, r.p., jdp ougjnrgtpgj uc outtxgrwt, jdpip rw n hiufrcpinjrug uc hujpgjrnf rgjpffrqpgop nipnw uc rgjpipwj. jdp xw txwj bpnf yrjd n brkpiwp wpj uc gnjrugnf wpoxirjz rgjpipwjw ngb cuoxw ug irws tngnqptpgj ukpi irws nkurbngop. rg jdrw huwj-oufb yni pin, jdp hirtniz ougopigw nip juhrow wxod nw rgjpignjrugnf jpiiuirwt, jdp hiufrcpinjrug uc gxofpni ngb ujdpi ypnhugw uc tnww bpwjixojrug, pougutro rgjpffrqpgop, ngb bixq jinccrosrgq.

rg nbbrjrug ju jdpwp gpy rgjpipwjw, jdp xw rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz crgbw n txod tuip outhfpl ngb pkpi-odngqrgq wpj uc oxwjutpiw ui nxjduirmpb xwpiw uc rgjpffrqpgop yrjdrg jdp qukpigtpgj. nw jdp trwwrug ngb cxgojrugw uc jdp kniruxw oxwjutpi nqpgorpw plhngb, wu bupw jdpri gppb cui rgjpffrqpgop ju wxhhuij jduwp cxgojrugw. jdp odnffpgqp, jdpg, rw ju hiukrbp rgjpffrqpgop xwpiw jdp apgpcrj uc jdp jujnfrjz uc jdp brwjiraxjpb sguyfpbqp uc jdp pgjrip rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz, r.p., ju fpkpinqp nff uc jdp rgcuitnjrug nknrfnafp ydpg hiukrbrgq n ipwhugwp ju n oxwjutpi. jdnj tpngw jdpz txwj jnsp nbkngjnqp uc nff uc jdp rgcuitnjrug rg nff uc jdp rgbrkrbxnf wjukphrhpw; ngb jdpz txwj bu jdrw odpnhpi ngb cnwjpi. nw wduyg rg jdrw hnhpi, ng rgjingpj -- gntpfz rgjpfrgs -- ydrod wpikropw jdp rgjpffrqpgop outtxgrjz ngb rjw oxwjutpiw rw jdp criwj wjph juynibw hiukrbrgq jdrw gppbpb cxgojrugnfrjz. zpj, jdpz txwj guj ap ougjpgj yrjd jdpri hnwj wxoopwwpw wxod nw jduwp plpthfrcrpb az ugr ngb erohno. injdpi jdpz txwj ougjrgxp ju pkufkp rgju n cxffz nqrfp rgjpffrqpgop pgjpihirwp rc jdp xgrjpb wjnjpw rw ju ap onhnafp uc bpnfrgq yrjd jdp rgjpffrqpgop hiuafptw rj yrff cnop rg jdp gplj trffpggrxt.

Re:Oprah Caught in Sexual Tryst with Dr. Phil

[Anonymous Coward]

You are my Hero

Speed of light through copper...

[Omnibus]

Isn't the speed of light through the copper in cabling a fair bit below c?

Re:Speed of light through copper...

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't the speed of light through the copper in cabling a fair bit below c?

About zero I'd say. Unless you've got some really thin copper and some really bright light.

Re:Speed of light through copper...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, that's why the paper measured the tranmission speed in the cable to be about 2/3 c, and not c.

Re:Speed of light through copper...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but for anything sufficiently fast you don't think of say RG58 Coax as a wire... it's a wave-guide. RG58 transmission is really about (2/3 * 1.01)c -- background in particle physics where this is used ad nauseum. For example: given a detector element you split the signal -- pipe one leg down say RG59 (which transmits about 0.9c), jam it through a discriminator (costs about 10-15ns) which in turn opens a gate on a charge integrating analog to digital converter. The other analog leg from the initial split is sent down a hunk of RG58 that delays the arrival time of the pulse until the gate on the ADC is open.
As you might guess, most particle physicists think of cable length in terms of nanosec, converting to feet/meters only when necessary.

Another tidbit: to good approixmation c=1ft/ns

Re:Speed of light through copper...

[Anonymous Coward]

Well .... AFAIK, light doesn't actually travel through copper wire !!. Electrons travelling along the copper wire actually travel very slowly indeeed (from a few mm/s to a few m/s), but the electromagnetic energy flows through a copper conductor at about 0.8 times the speed of light.

Re:Speed of light through copper...

[Anonymous Coward]

Pretty sure it's called the velocity of propagation; a TDR needs that info to be useful.
Any responsible/competent cable manufacturer should have the info. to two sig. figs.

Linux is gay

[Anonymous Coward]

It keeps pinging and pinging like a fag with a didlo, never finishing up. What's wrong with four quick thrusts before blowing your load, like MS does unless you specify -t (for "I take it up the ass")?

Molecules got nuttin ta do widdit

[Spamalamadingdong]

You get delays due to the velocity factor of the cable; this is mostly due to the dielectric behavior of the insulation (which is unlrelated to friction).

You'd have the same delays in fiber; light travels more slowly though glass than through vacuum, in no small part because of the dieletric properties of glass. In case you're wondering, the speed of light in a medium is equal to 1/; when and are the values for vacuum, v = c.

(Yes, I'm a physics nut and I studied this crap for my degree. About the only thing I use it for is to set people straight about physics.)

Re:Molecules got nuttin ta do widdit

[Hal-9001]

Why do I get "Insightful" mods on explanations of basic thermodynamics, or even physics? Read a science book!

I hear ya... ;-)

Re:Molecules got nuttin ta do widdit

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the

Why not use Jupiter's moons?

[Caractacus Potts]

If you want a real experiment, measure the speed of light using Jupiter's moons. This was how the first accurate measurement was made. At least they'll be playing outside.

click me

Re:Why not use Jupiter's moons?

[Score0, Overrated]

Why not use Jupiter's moons?

1) They don't fit in a school's classroom.
2) You can only see them at night.
3) You can only see them on a clear night.
4) You can only see them on a clear night when Jupiter is in your bit of the sky.

Re:Why not use Jupiter's moons?

[toast0]

1) build a bigger classroom
2) blow up the sun
3) freeze and shatter the clouds
4) use a big magnet to get jupiter in your bit of sky (i'm sure jupiter has magnetic materials in it)

Re:Why not use Jupiter's moons?

[Anonymous Coward]

5) You have to take measurements over a long period of time to determine their orbits.
6) The calculation requires knowledge of Newtonian orbital theory to interpret the data.

Still, using Jupiter's moons was a clever idea, as is the rotating mirror idea mentioned elsewhere in the comments.

Re:TIMOTHY, no fuckin shit; you can use ping for t

[The BOFH Troll]

POO IN my pants, PISSHAT.

Impressive

[Neoplane Overlord]

I never thought such a seemingly simple thing as a ping command could be used in a way related to physics/the universe. At this rate, we may be able to explain the space-time continuum by using a simple chat relay message sometime within the next couple of years. Hmm... AOL and the Universe... mind boggling isn't it?

In other news...

[Blue Lozenge]

Speed of Carrier Pigeon Measurement Using Ping

Insightful????

[Anonymous Coward]

In the future, try to read the article before posting your insightful comment.

Correction in the above.

[Spamalamadingdong]

Make that sqrt(1/). In my hurry to post I made an error (and a bunch of people got their two cents in first).

I thought this comment was promising

[JustAnotherReader]

From the PDF file explaining their experiment:

Software: We took data while running Linux on both computers. Although it should be possible to do this experiment with the new release of ping for Windows, because the authors were unfamiliar with Windows, Linux was chosen.

Unfamilier with Windows? Where's my checkbook? I want to send my kids to this school! That's not sarcasm, I mean it. I think the fact that the teachers and students were more familar with Linux than Windows is awesome!

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[x1l]

Good luck getting a job if you are unfimiliar with windows. That crap only flies in colleges.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[number one duck]

Yeah, nobody can spare the 10 minutes linux --> windows conversion. At least nobody with the proper attention span to be teaching children.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[Shade, The]

Yep, 10 minutes to work out how all that closed source MS ping software works, and then to run it in DOS, instead of the infinitely more flexible Bash (or tcsh, or whatever) shell.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[rtaylor]

Why is that awsome? The problem is the exact same only reversed.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[kasek]

well i gotta say, after being a student there (YSU) for two years, i never saw Linux installed on the computers in any labs in the CIS department. i didnt run into many people in the lower level programming classes that were intimately familiar with linux either. you could telnet into their unix server to get email, compile code and whatnot, but that was the extent of my *nix dealings while there.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[kasek]

and before you flame me, yes i did read the article, and yes i see that it was in their physics department this was done, not CSIS. so maybe just send yer kid there if you want him/her to study physics in a linux environment maybe.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[WNight]

Really? Oh damn. I must have missed the news for the past few years...

Has Linus declared Microsoft to be enemy #1?

Does Linus control a huge sales force dedicated to wiping out Windows?

Has Linux bribed politicians to get his own laws (UCITA) in order to enforce his empire and exclude smaller companies?

Has Linus illegally used his monopoly to leverage Linux into OEM hardware to the exclusion of other OSes?

Has Linus lied (and directed others to lie) to a federal judge and faked evidence to support these lies?

Probably not... Until Linus becomes a billionare and sets out to control the world's computers, destroying all competition in his wake this won't be "the exact same only reversed."

I don't care that many people never use Linux. Many people don't use Asus motherboards or drive Toyotas either. What I care about is the freedom for people people to choose. Microsoft is trying to take that freedom away, Linux is offering more choices.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[jsse]

He might be more familiar with Mac, or even worse, OS/2. (j/k, I'm pro-Mac and former testing team for OS/2). :)

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck getting a job if you can't figure out how to use 'ping' under windows :)

More likely the choice was made by a professor who hasn't got his head around these 'new fangled graphicky things' yet. Or, it was from a couple of techie students who ARE familiar with windows, but would rather use Linux given the opportunity thankyou very much. Or, they realised that it makes little difference and picked whatever was handiest on their machines.

To be 'unfamiliar' with windows makes me think back to programming classes with folk 'unfamiliar' with saving files to disk or 'unfamiliar' with doing any work not copied from someone else... let alone using pico. It seems to suggest that they're non-computer people who are using Linux because it's either what the physics department teaches, or because it's what was on the instruction sheet.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[Anonymous Coward]

Adult Meta-Gallery seeks Webmasters. Built using open source!

This link is broken.. append "index.php". And I don't think it's quite ready to go live yet, too many broken links and scripts that don't quite work.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[Anonymous Coward]

to work out how all that closed source MS ping software works

You need the source to fucking ping to figure out how it works?

Did you eat a lot of paint chips as a kid?

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[Anonymous Coward]

shut the fuck up..... this article is not about MS. it's about doing something cool with off the self computer stuff. Take your fucking retard MS bashing to a microsoft article.

Moderators, mod me down and take this fuck stick with me.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[Anonymous Coward]

They didn't say that the teachers and students were more familiar with Linux; they said that the authors of the paper (the teachers) were. They're physicists, and it's not at all rare for a physics professor to know his way around a Unix box better than a Windows machine. Unix is the traditional mainstay of scientific/technical academia, after all.

Re:I thought this comment was promising

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, the sad thing is I had to move it from mySQL --> access/ODBC, so the open source part is also now partially a lie. The index.php was a server misconfiguration, since fixed.

Well then

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm glad they used ping instead of ping2death.

Memories of high school

[dohcvtec]

In my high school physics II class I experimentally measured c. There was a long service hallway that ran the length of the building, about 150 feet. We had a laser at one end and a mirror at the other end. The signal output of the laser went directly into an oscilloscope, while the beam went down the hall and back to a detector at our end. We simply measured the phase shift between the two, and voila! We came within about 6% of the accepted value of c. Not bad for a high school project, but this method sounds interesting, and there may be peripheral conclusions to be drawn, due to the electrical aspects of CAT5.

Re:Memories of high school

[Anonymous Coward]

In high school, I measured geeks' resistance to pain and hunger by beating you up and taking your lunch money.

Re:Memories of high school

[Graymalkin]

You made me spit Coke all over my monitor. Thanks.

Re:Memories of high school

[Inferno]

I just 'bout spit my toothpaste all over my monitor. Thank you to the person that warned me about this thread and prevented me from doing so.

Re:Memories of high school

[Hydrogenoid]

You didn't... c is the speed of light in vacuum...
You mesured the speed of light in air, wich happen to be close to c, but isn't the same...

Re:Memories of high school

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah! How do you like how that shit works! Take that, geek!

Slashdot Dating Game

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you just sitting around with nothign to do?
Do you want to talk with an interesting intelligent
woman from nevada, call 800-618-8255 from 8:00 p.m.
to 12:00 p.m. and ask for Arte Belle!

Re:Slashdot Dating Game

[Anonymous Coward]

being bored, and avoiding homework, i called the 800 number, and was informed that it was not available from my area (wi) :(

Alan Thicke. DEAD.

[Alan_Thicke]

I just heard the sad news on CBC radio. Comedy actor/writer Alan Thicke was found dead in his home this morning. Even if you never watched his work, you can appreciate what he did for 80's television. Truly a Canadian icon.
He will be missed :(

Show me That Smile (The Growing Pains Theme Song):

Show me that smile again.
Ooh show me that smile.
Don't waste another minute on your crying.
We're nowhere near the end.
We're nowhere near.
The best is ready to begin.

As long as we got each other
We got the world
Sitting right in our hands.
Baby rain or shine;
All the time.
We got each other
Sharing the laughter and love.

The ultimate Read The Article First

[dmd]

As I write this, there are 20 comments posted already. Nearly all of them are from people who quite clearly haven't read the actual article, or even just its abstract.

Please, read the article first!

Re:The ultimate Read The Article First

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should we? We don't care about the article - we're the original bunch of fuckwits - we're the Slashdot crowd!

Re:The ultimate Read The Article First

[Cato the Elder]

It's worse than that. I expect a lot of people, especially early posters, to not read the article.
But

A) A lot of them didn't even seem to read the little dept. blurb, which actually has more good info than most of the posts.

B) A lot of these assinine responses have been moded up as "informative"

Something is broken. Badly broken. Read it. It's interesting.

Re:The ultimate Read The Article First

[prockcore]

The day people read the article, is the day the slashdot effect ceases to exist.

Don't tell me to read the article while the server is currently dying a miserable death.. unless you feel like mirroring it yourself.

It looks like...

[Nathdot]

...someone is very close to getting some sweet government funding to play quake all day!!!

M: "Joel, did you get those speed of light measurements this time?"

Joel: "No, It looks like we'll have to fire up another game. You wanna play one-on-one or co-op M?"

M: "Sweeeeet!!!"

:)

Not only is the speed of light slower...

[interstellar_donkey]

then I thought...It also seems to change. Thanks Ping.

22 5:02pm ~ >ping localhost
PING localhost (127.0.0.1): 56 data bytes
--- localhost ping statistics ---
5 packets transmitted, 5 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.033/0.046/0.054/0.008 ms

--

Re:Not only is the speed of light slower...

[The BOFH Troll]

goatse.cx is fast!

tsunami:/# ping goatse.cx
PING goatse.cx (209.242.124.241): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 209.242.124.241: icmp_seq=0 ttl=241 time=94.4 ms
64 bytes from 209.242.124.241: icmp_seq=1 ttl=241 time=94.6 ms

--- goatse.cx ping statistics ---
2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 94.4/94.5/94.6 ms

Grace Hopper measured nanoseconds...

[whitefox]

... using lengths of wire

Re:Grace Hopper measured nanoseconds...

[Anonymous Coward]

A piece of wire is not a good way of specifing a delay. Propagation time is related to the dielectric constant which isn't anywhere constant when you have a simple piece of wire. Try measuring the s parameter and you would see what I mean.

Re:TIMOTHY, no fuckin shit; you can use ping for t

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot requires you to wait 20 seconds between hitting 'reply' and submitting a comment.

It's been 18 seconds since you hit 'reply'!

If you this error seems to be incorrect, please provide the following in your report to
SourceForge.net:

Browser type
User ID/Nickname or AC
What steps caused this error
Whether or not you know your ISP to be using a proxy or some sort of service that
gives you an IP that others are using simultaneously.
How many posts to this form you successfully submitted during the day

* Please choose 'formkeys' for the category!
Thank you.

And the Lord said:

[Anonymous Coward]

"Thou shall not kill". How do you propose to arrange the meeting, asskisser? Spite your God and win praise from your jarhead buddies?

Nationalism: contra naturam est

Re:And the Lord said:

[Anonymous Coward]

Assumming a Xtian God (it is possable that JTinMSP ment the Muslem god, I don't know if he/she likes to capertilized) then, as the Xtain God is everywhere I'm sure he and OBL have already meet.

I tried this on slashdot!

[YouAreFatMan]

D:\WINNT\system32>ping slashdot.org

Pinging slashdot.org [64.28.67.150] with 32 bytes of data:

Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.
Request timed out.

Ping statistics for 64.28.67.150:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 0, Lost = 4 (100% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms

I guess that means that slashdot is infinitely far away...I always suspected it

Re:I tried this on slashdot!

[anpe]

Request timed out.

IMO this would mean that slashdot is in a black hole :-)

Re:I tried this on slashdot!

[The BOFH Troll]

tsunami:/# ping goatse.cx
PING goatse.cx (209.242.124.241): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 209.242.124.241: icmp_seq=0 ttl=241 time=94.4 ms
64 bytes from 209.242.124.241: icmp_seq=1 ttl=241 time=94.6 ms

--- goatse.cx ping statistics ---
2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 94.4/94.5/94.6 ms

Re:I tried this on slashdot!

[Hal-9001]

It follows that slashdot is more efficient at generating black holes than nature, since a server somewhere in the world goes down every time a link is posted... ;-)

Re:I tried this on slashdot!

[GigsVT]

Everytime a bell rings, an angel gets it's wings?

I wonder if there is a connection?

IT'S A CONSPIRACY!

when using Comcast with NAT...

[Anonymous Coward]

the speed of light is 0. Yes it's true, just look at the speed of light from my house to slashdot...

$ ping -c4 slashdot.org
PING slashdot.org (64.28.67.150) from 192.168.205.3 : 56(84) bytes of data.

--- slashdot.org ping statistics ---
4 packets transmitted, 0 packets received, 100% packet loss

Maybe this is Comcast's way of "Gunning NAT Users". They try to trick us into thinking that the speed of light is 0.

Re:when using Comcast with NAT...

[The BOFH Troll]

tsunami:/# ping goatse.cx
PING goatse.cx (209.242.124.241): 56 data bytes
64 bytes from 209.242.124.241: icmp_seq=0 ttl=241 time=94.4 ms
64 bytes from 209.242.124.241: icmp_seq=1 ttl=241 time=94.6 ms

--- goatse.cx ping statistics ---
2 packets transmitted, 2 packets received, 0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max = 94.4/94.5/94.6 ms

Ahh, memories.

[dimator]

Ping is a little thousand-line hack that I wrote in an evening which practically everyone seems to know about.

It was a great night, after all!

i thought we already knew the speed of light

[Anonymous Coward]

so yeah, don't we already know what the speed of light is? and aren't there more important things college students could be doing with that cat5 wire, like download porn?

Yawn.

[Multiple Sanchez]

Do the same thing with pong, then I'll be impressed.

Cuckoo's Egg

[sconeu]

Cliff Stoll mentions using Kermit ack latency to measure distance in "The Cuckoo's Egg". Of course, he wasn't trying to measure c, but to figure out where his hacker was. Turns out he was pretty accurate, even though the data was ignored because it didn't fit the currently known theories...

Re:Cuckoo's Egg

[Anonymous Coward]

BTW, in "Cuckoo's Egg" Stoll also writes about how he visited an Air Force network lab or something and met Mike Muuss, who was the author of the original ping(8).

This makes no sense to me....

[antistuff]

why go through all that trouble when all you need is a flashlight and a stopwatch?

Re:This makes no sense to me....

[The BOFH Troll]

The flashlight is used to look up CmdrTaco's ass as the stopwatch is stuck somewhere in his intestine.

Re:This makes no sense to me....

[Anonymous Coward]

retard. go read a physics book. but, as someone noted previously, with a laser and a photodetector hooked up to an oscilliscope and a mirror at the end of a long hall, you could measure the speed of light by checking out the groovy phase shift of the two signals

Re:This makes no sense to me....

[antistuff]

Your just jelous because I thought of saying it first. No +2 Funny for you! NEXT! (Sienfeld Reference for the tv impaired)

nope

[ArchieBunker]

Fire up visualroute and you'll notice that slashdots upstream provider is filtering pings.

Oh No!

[sailracer6]

We Slashdotted Los Alamos!

xxx.lanl.gov.is down.

Re:Oh No!

[Anonymous Coward]

We Slashdotted Los Alamos!

Expect one tactical nuke to the Slashdot server bunker, pronto.

now i want that book. dope review!

[Anonymous Coward]

now i want that book. dope review!

.77 C

[ruvreve]

I can't reach the article (being /.ed?) to read it but I always thought that data transfered over wire at about .77 the speed of light. I guess if you knew the exact figure you could use ping but then again if you knew the exact figure you would already know the speed of light. Maybe the article will give some insight into this...when I can actually read it.

Speed of light got /.ed

[ehiris]

Speed of light + /. = 0

Ouch

Speed of light?

[sitturat]

What they are measuring here is not the speed of light (c), but the speed of em waves in the cat 5 medium.

Most of the replies so far make the incorrect assumption that these 2 speeds are the same.

Re:Speed of light?

[quinto2000]

electro magnetic waves == light. You're right that light has a different transmission speed in different media, though.

Re:Speed of light?

[sitturat]

I didn't say light wasn't EM.

I just mean the em doesn't travel at c through all media.

Re:Speed of light?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you mean C. And I don't believe that you really know what you're talking about, either.

Re:Speed of light?

[Chirs]

Yes, they are measuring the speed of em waves in cat5. However, by then mathematically modelling the em characteristics of the cat5 cabling, they can then work from their experimental data to determine c.

Using electrical propreties of cat 5 and ping?

[ehiris]

Using basic electrical properties of category-five cable students may use their measurements to determine the speed of light in the vacuum to within a few percent

How does his happen? Don't you have to take in consideration processing of the response?

And why aren't they using fiber optics for this?

Re:Using electrical propreties of cat 5 and ping?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, you know, in a different Universe I might almost say that they knew more about it than you. Of course, here, you're some sort of God and you know everything, so the explanation simply can't be that you're an ignorant pile of shit who should fuck off and die.

Re:Using electrical propreties of cat 5 and ping?

[ehiris]

I didn't try to offend anybody but im my small little brain containg one brain cell I figured that I'd measure the speed of light with light.

c the speed of light, sort of

[ryouki]

c is the speed of light traveling thru vacum, but light propagates at different speeds depending on the medium. Changeing the medium changes the speed of propagation and makes the light bend. The propagation of an electrical signal thru copper is indeed quite fast, a good percentage of c, but it is NOT c. This experement is a cool thing to do, but it isn't mesureing the speed of light.

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[CounterZer0]

Wrong. It's measuring the speed of 'light' in the electromagnetic waveform sense. Not all measurements of the speed of light must be done in vacuo.

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Legion303]

Wrong. It's measuring the speed of 'light' in the electromagnetic waveform sense. Not all measurements of the speed of light must be done in vacuo.

It's measuring the speed of EM radiation through copper. The paper clearly states that the end value will give the speed of light in vacuum, which is incorrect.

-Legion

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[CmdrSam]

Did you even read the paper? They use the measured value of the speed of light in the wire to find a value of the speed of light in vacuum.

--Sam L-L

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Legion303]

Of course I read the paper. Please point out where they mentioned finding c from the pings. The only place they even mention c is at the very beginning.

-Legion

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Anonymous Coward]

Please point out where they mentioned finding c from the pings.

Bottom of page 8.

The only place they even mention c is at the very beginning.

They mention it at the beginning, then they give lots of details about the experimental setup, then they talk about the speed of light that they measured. (They actually measured the speed of light in the cable, not c itself.)

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Legion303]

They mention it at the beginning, then they give lots of details about the experimental setup, then they talk about the speed of light that they measured. (They actually measured the speed of light in the cable, not c itself.)

That's what I said. And then they went on to *estimate* (not calculate, there's a difference) c through the average properties of cat5.

-Legion

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Anonymous Coward]

What's the difference between "estimate" and "calculate", in your mind? Is it only a "calculation" if it's done from first principles?

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Legion303]

What's the difference between "estimate" and "calculate", in your mind? Is it only a "calculation" if it's done from first principles?

A calculation generally gives you exact values (minus rounding approximations), Anonymous Coward. What these guys did, while still a neat party trick, was to estimate c based on estimates of wave propagation in copper.

-Legion

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Anonymous Coward]

A calculation is what you do in theory. What they did was perform an experimental measurement, which is not an "estimate". If anything, the theoretical calculation is the estimate to the real thing, since theoretical calculations always make idealizations.

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Legion303]

No, a calculation is something you do on paper. If you'll read the article, you'll see that they use the propagation of a ping through copper to (indirectly) estimate c. See, it's right there on the page you (or another AC) directed me to: "[...] indicating that the speed of propagation in a cat-5 cable is some 2/3 the speed of light in the vacuum." They arrived at this figure through speed averages. Dividing your average speed through copper by 2/3 will give you a reasonable approximation of c, but it is not the same as doing direct experimentation to calculate c.

Class dismissed.

-Legion

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Anonymous Coward]

They neither measured nor estimated nor calculated c. They measured the speed of propagation, and did not "calculate" or "estimate" it. They compared it to the accepted value of c. There is no way of using it to estimate the value of c, unless you already know the relationship between the speed of propagation and c.

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Legion303]

They neither measured nor estimated nor calculated c. They measured the speed of propagation, and did not "calculate" or "estimate" it. They compared it to the accepted value of c. There is no way of using it to estimate the value of c, unless you already know the relationship between the speed of propagation and c.

Which is why I said "indirectly." My point, which you're arguing for, is that the authors of the paper did not derive the speed of light in a vacuum from this experiment, even though they claim to in the abstract.

-Legion

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree with that point, but they didn't derive c in vacuo even indirectly.

Re:c the speed of light, sort of

[Legion303]

If you insist.

-Legion

Machinist's ruler?

[zer0vector]

One of the coolest low tech experiments I've done is measure the speed of light using a machinist's ruler. That's one of those metal rulers with the marks etched on the surface. By hitting the etched marks with a laser at a very low angle you can measure the speed of light using the diffraction pattern formed.

Re:Machinist's ruler?

[r6144]

How to measure the frequency of laser when c is unknown? I think using an 1Ghz oscillator will be better --- although that surely need to be done outside.

VA Software is filing for bankruptcy!

[Anonymous Coward]

I just heard it announced on TechTV, VA Software (Slashdot's parent company) has filed for bankruptcy! I'm sure we'll be hearing more about it later today, and it will be hard to notice when the site shuts down. It's really a shame to see such a great resourse as this go out of business. Hopefully another company will soon step forward and offer to host Slashdot.

Ping

[Banjonardo]

The creator of ping, a seemingly cool guy, didn't die too long ago

Re:Ping

[subsimian]

I hate when I find out someone died on my birthday ...

Re:Ping

[Anonymous Coward]

I hated it when I found out someone was born on your birthday ...

"educational" network

[GePS]

"Here's a case where all that cat5 on college campuses can actually be used for education ;)"


Did I just hear education implied when talking about a college campus network? All these marvelous filesharing programs do little but propogate porn.

Hell, perhaps you could somehow measure the speed of light by observing how fast the search "teen sex" on Kazaa fills up.

A few recommendations:

[swagr]

1. Ping a machine farther away for more accurate results.
2. Have the entire lab flood-ping it to collect statistics at a faster rate.
3. Get some other shools doing this at the same time so you can compare results.

I recommend slashdot.org.

Re:A few recommendations:

[danonb]

Like ping www.microsoft.com with a few hundred universities?

Ohno second - The minuscule fraction of time in which you just realised you made a BIG mistake.

Troll Tuesday!

[New Movie Troll]

Stolen from the private files of CmdrTaco's GAY Linux box, it's "Hemos & CmdrTaco" (M/M, suck, j/o)

Ok....Here goes...I have a friend named CmdrTaco. We have known each other
since the 6th grade (I will start 11th in August). Well...for some
reason...one day i was joking around, we were over at his house. I said
"Oh, suck my dick!" and all of a sudden he was trying to rip my shorts
off. So...I dropped my shorts and all of a sudden he had all 6" of my
cock in his mouth, after about 5 minutes, and holding it, i unloaded my
wad into his mouth, he gobbled it up. I returned the favor...did he
smell HOT! I sucked him and ate up all of his cum too.

Well....this occured over 11 months ago.

He has been out of town since May 29. Last weekend he returned for a
couple of days so his parents could take care of some business. Well
while on vacation they had bought a CD-ROM and they did not know how to
install it...his dad did'nt have time, his mom dont know a phillps from a
flathead, and he cant follow instructions so well, so i volunteered my
services for the day. Well, being only 16, you will be surprised that i
borrowed my neighbors car and went over there. When i got there he was
the only one home....his parents had gone out for the evening. I
unplugged his computer and when i bent over i could see his dick up the
leg of his shorts. It made me so hard...I could smell his manhood.
So, I disconnected the cords from the back: the monitor, printer, mouse,
keyboard, joystick, and modem. I get the tool set he has waiting for me
and i dissassemble the computer, meanwhile sporting a major hardon. I
know CmdrTaco was staring at my cock. I took the cover off and looked at my
options. Well, I realised that i would need to pop out a metal thingy
and then i would be able to "mount" the CD-ROM. About 20 minutes later
this was done. I removed an expansion slot (while i know he was still
staring at my hardon) and proceeded to remove the cover of the slot. I
got the CD card and was working it in when i felt a hand on my cock.
Then i felt my shorts being unbuttoned and droped to the floor. He was
massaging my cock and i was oozing precum in my underwear. I finally got
the card worked in and securing it and he pulled my underwear down to my
ankles and began to stroke my cock. As I was hooking the power and the
data cable up to the CD-ROM I felt him begin to take my cock in his
mouth.

After fidgeting around with the data cable for a few...he was still
sucking away and I finally got the thing hooked up. I began to replace
the cover and put the screws back in. All of a sudden I had that urge to
cum, well....I was holding it in so he could get the FULL load. I
finally replaced all the screws and hooked everything back up. I hit the
power button on the computer and heard that familair "boot up beep" and i
just lost my load. I squirted load after load in his mouth.

Well..I grabbed the installation disk and put it in the A: drive and used
the install command and then I felt him pulling me down on the bed. Soon
we were in the "69" position...I could feel his balls tense up and after
about another 45 seconds he let me have his load. Well...i had another
load waiting for him...was he surprised.

THE END

For all of you curious computer nerds...the CD-ROM works just fine.

Hemos

Norway?

[The Ape With No Name]

My original impetus for writing PING for 4.2a BSD UNIX came from an offhand remark in July 1983 by Dr. Dave Mills while we were attending a DARPA meeting in Norway...."

Why on earth was a US Defense department group having a meeting in Norway? I need to get my boss to start having meetings in Maui. Sheesh.

Re:Norway?

[ruvreve]

You should have been working for some of the dot-bombs. They had numerous lunch meetings at condos in Cancun and look where most of them are now. So you may want to rethink your comment about your company having meetings in far-off places.

Re:Norway?

[fferreres]

Rusia was near and US Defense beign there makes sense, for whatever excuse they could think of.

Re:Norway?

[tom's a-cold]

They were a member of NATO. Norway and Denmark are the only two Scandinavian members. There was a lot of early-warning radar up there.

Of course, Maui's part of a Nato country too. But it's so much harder to get lutefisk there.

Re:Norway?

[The Ape With No Name]

I work for a University. We will never die as long as we can squeeze....

SI length of the meter?

[j-beda]

The first footnote of the paper seems to be incorrect, it reads:

[1] Since the mid eighties the meter has actually been defined in terms of a fixed, integral number of wavelengths of light from a particular optical transition. Since the frequency of that optical transition is tied up in (what are believed to be fundamental) constants of nature, the speed of light is defined through this definition of the meter.

I had thought that the meter was defined as the distance light travels in 1/299792458 of a second, with the second being so many vibrations of a particular atom (cesium?).

Yep, according to NIST the length has been defined this way for quite some time:

The 1889 definition of the meter, based upon the artifact international prototype of platinum-iridium, was replaced by the CGPM in 1960 using a definition based upon a wavelength of krypton-86 radiation. This definition was adopted in order to reduce the uncertainty with which the meter may be realized. In turn, to further reduce the uncertainty, in 1983 the CGPM replaced this latter definition by the following definition:

The meter is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second.

Re:SI length of the meter?

[addaon]

The meter is the length of the path travelled by light in vacuum during a time interval of 1/299 792 458 of a second.

Which is exactly the same as 'a fixed, integral number [namely 299_792_458] of wavelengths of light from a particular optical transition [a specific vibration of the cesium atom].' Basically, you missed a step of logic, and you're violently agreeing with the source.

Re:SI length of the meter?

[p3d0]

Nope. It was 1,650,763.73 wavelengths, not 299,792,458. The latter would have been an astounding coincidence if it were true. Imagine: what are the odds that the meter happens to be the exact geometric mean between one light-second and one wavelength of this krypton radiation.

Re:SI length of the meter?

[j-beda]

No, the older definition was a certain number of wavelengths of a particular optical transition and the current (for quite some time now) definition is based on the distance travelled by light in a well defined amount of time. They are quite different.

Re:SI length of the meter?

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew I was taller last year.

Re:SI length of the meter?

[mikeee]

Er. Doesn't the uncertainty principle mean that there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, reducing somewhat the value of that definition?

Re:SI length of the meter?

[gilroy]

Blockquoth the poster:

Er. Doesn't the uncertainty principle mean that there is no such thing as a perfect vacuum, reducing somewhat the value of that definition?

No. Under modern theories, there is indeed a well-defined vacuum state... it's just not empty. :)

Re:SI length of the meter?

[nadaou]

Now, due to the friction of the tides on the sea floor, the Earth's revolution about its axis is slowly slowing down. Thus the days are getting longer. (Less days/year) Thus seconds (1/86400th day) are getting longer. Thus the distance light travels in that second is getter further, and the 'meter' is growing.

(yea, yea, relax. I know about leap seconds.. )

Re:SI length of the meter?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, the older definition was a certain number of wavelengths of a particular optical transition and the current (for quite some time now) definition is based on the distance travelled by light in a well defined amount of time. They are quite different.

Well... the paper's reference to an "optical transition" was, as the other poster said, a reference to the hyperfine transition in an atom. So you and the paper are agreeing on that point. The "well defined amount of time" you refer to is preciselly the period of the optical transition.

However, the paper was incorrect in saying that the speed of light was defined directly from the wavelength of that transition; as you say, it was defined using the frequency of the transition -- that is what is directly measured. (The wavelength can be inferred from that, if you define the speed of light.)

Re:SI length of the meter?

[Anonymous Coward]

To clarify: the vacuum state is the ground state, of lowest possible energy.

Re:SI length of the meter?

[j-beda]

And the second is not defined in terms of the rotation of the earth anyway.

Again from NIST:

The unit of time, the second, was defined originally as the fraction 1/86 400 of the mean solar day. The exact definition of "mean solar day" was left to astronomical theories. However, measurement showed that irregularities in the rotation of the Earth could not be taken into account by the theory and have the effect that this definition does not allow the required accuracy to be achieved. In order to define the unit of time more precisely, the 11th CGPM (1960) adopted a definition given by the International Astronomical Union which was based on the tropical year. Experimental work had, however, already shown that an atomic standard of time-interval, based on a transition between two energy levels of an atom or a molecule, could be realized and reproduced much more precisely. Considering that a very precise definition of the unit of time is indispensable for the International System, the 13th CGPM (1967) decided to replace the definition of the second by the following (affirmed by the CIPM in 1997 that this definition refers to a cesium atom in its ground state at a temperature of 0 K):

The second is the duration of 9 192 631 770 periods of the radiation corresponding to the transition between the two hyperfine levels of the ground state of the cesium 133 atom.

They need to read up on their Linux...

[Slartibartfast]

For one, their "private IP" addresses are 168.192.x.x -- sounds a little backward to me. For another, they refer to "" as a "pipe" -- last time I checked "|" did that job.

Nevertheless, I have to say that it really is a damn cool idea; sad I never thought of it myself.

Here's to hoping that VA can keep going...

First typo post!

[Karn]

"ping -i .01 > tempfile1.txt" where ">" (the so-called 'pipe' symbol)

Then what's this thing: | ?

:)

Re:First typo post!

[Hydrogenoid]

pipes can break, too...

Re:First typo post!

[WereTiger]

The > is the DOS 'redirect' syntax, but a lot of us called it 'pipe' in the old days.

serves practically the same function.

physics class

[abe ferlman]

This is a little off topic, but not much so bear with me.

A friend of mine found physics easy in high school, but found his teacher unbearable. So he would always convert his (generally correct) answers into inconvenient units, you know, pico-thises, nano-thats.

One time the question was "what is the speed of light?"

His answer? "1 lightyear/year"

Re:physics class

[Yarn]

I could never remember the average distance from the sun to the earth, so I always gave it as either 1AU or eight light minutes..

I was never much good at astrophysics

Re:physics class

[NewsWatcher]

During physics class we were studying an introduction to logic. I walked into the class five minutes late and my teacher demanded to know why I was tardy.
"Because I wasn't early, or on time," was my response.

Re:physics class

[Anonymous Coward]

Side note: gravitational physicists often do exactly that -- measure c in lightyears/year, so that c=1. Then all those pesky c's drop out of the equations. If you want to get a physical answer out, you can just stick the c's back into the final result via dimensional analysis, but there's no need for them in the intermediate stages. (They also usually set Newton's gravitational constant G=1, too.)

Re:physics class

[Hal-9001]

The average distance from the sun to the earth is 1.5 x 10^23 angstroms, plus or minus a whole lot of angstroms.

Re:physics class

[KjetilK]

Hehe, most astronomers give c in units of cm/s. Yeah. I think that is just to be annoying... :-) (OTOH, it also says a couple of things about traditionalism in astronomy)

Re:physics class

[j1mmy]

Or the easy answer: 1 Astral Unit.

Re:physics class

[Hal-9001]

Well technically an AU is an Astronomical Unit, which is 149598550000 meters or 1.495 x 10^21 angstroms. I made my parent calculation multiplying 93 million miles x 1600 meters/mile x 10^10 angstroms/meter in my head and still managed to be within 2 orders of magnitude. As an engineer, I consider that to be pretty good, especially since once in introductory physics I got an answer off by 68 orders of magnitude. A note to aspiring scientists and engineers: don't leave out negative signs, expecially ones like in h = 6.626 x 10^-34 J-s... ;-)

wireless

[coreyb]

I'd be interested to see what kind of results this technique would produce using a wireless network.

Stupid fucking yanks...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hahahahahaha...you stupid fucking yanks couldn't even find one lousy tin-horn, rag-head terrorist leader! Osama owns your asses, dickheads!

Yeah, heaven forbid . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Heaven forbid that the college teaching your kids how to make it in the real world actually has professors qualified to teach them how to use the software they are most likely to use once they graduate.

Ethernet is not ether

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't buy the contention that c in a vacuum can be measured within a few percent by a ping, the differences in c in a vacuum and in a wire is greater than that, not to mention the additional computational delays. However, within a wire the speed of transmission clearly can be measured. This is the basis of many network TDR devices that can not only tell you that a cable is open but where it is open (or simply how long the wire is). If you know how long the pulse took to return you can compute how long the wire is, or conversely if you know the length of the wire you can determine the speed of transmission of the pulse. This can even be seen on an oscilloscope with no more extra complex equipment than a one shot to generate a pulse.

Equally interesting is that the speed of light in a wire is also the determining factor that limits the length of an ethernet trunk if collision detection is to work, the maximum length of the cable run is the distance the packet can travel and still have a legal collision in the first part of the packet (The test is only done for so many bits, 64 if I remember right for 10mb ethernet, because after this you could not have a collision on a legally sized trunk if each staion listened before transmitting).

Re:Ethernet is not ether

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't buy the contention that c in a vacuum can be measured within a few percent by a ping,

And if you read the paper, you'll find that they didn't measure c (speed of light in vacuum). They measured the speed of transimssion within the wire, as you say. They got a value of about 2/3 c.

OT, but related.

[Anonymous Coward]

A number of companies are pitching products that measure the characteristics of IP traffic over a network link using a variety of different metrics and solutions. CQOS, Brix, and Cisco, all have solutiuons that do this their own way. Disclaimer, I work for the first company on that list, but there is some interesting information regarding IP measurement at all those sites. I'm not sure about Brix and Cisco's products, but I know CQOS's measures down to microsecond accuracy.

2+2=5!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

I love the icon for education! 2+2=5!
haven't you learn that 1+1 != 2, therefore, 2+2!=5, therefore, I am!
You should reconsider your icons.

Napster is "educational" too :-)

[Anonymous Coward]

especially good for training law students in practical applications of intellectual property protection

Neat...

[Omicron]

I haven't read the story of ping yet, and that was just a cool little read. You know, weeks will go by where I don't find anything all that interesting to me on Slashdot, and then all of a sudden a little nugget like that pops up and just makes me think "cool".

xxx?

[Snover]

It sounds like someone has an alterior motive for the measurement of speed of light with PING ;)

More than just the speed of light

[HardCase]

Even though there are a few minor errors in the paper, the authors deserve a mighty pat on the back for this. Not only did they devise a rather interesting method of estimating the speed of light, but they also managed to throw in a little basic electronic theory as well.

I'm less than a semester away from graduation as an electrical engineer and I've taken more than my fair share of physics classes, in fact, more than the curriculum required. I think that an experiment like this one has a solid place in a second semester physics class, particularly one that is taken by engineers. In the second semester, the students have (hopefully) mastered classical concepts of mechanics and are moving into waves and fields. What a perfect time for a project like this.

Suffice to say that my physics experience was not nearly so fun. Oh, and eventually we did measure the speed of light, but not until I took quantum mechanics. And then we measured it directly by modulating a laser with an extremely high frequency function generator and measuring the phase shift with an equally high sampling oscilloscope. It didn't require any particular expertise in overcoming the limitations of the hardware or really any problem solving at all, other than a little bit of math to convert feet per microsecond to meters per second.

All in all, a very good job.

-h-

Re:More than just the speed of light

[Anonymous Coward]

In one of my physics labs, we measured the speed of light by performing measurements on electrical circuits to determine the permittivity and permeability of free space (epsilon0 and mu0), since c = 1/sqrt(epsilon0*mu0) as a consequence of Maxwell's equations.

TRY READING THE ARTICLE! (n/t)

[Chirs]

n/t

Practical Pinging

[Alioth]

Pings are used to measure things in real life.

For example, DME (distance measuring equipment) in aviation. This works by equipment on the aircraft sending a signal to the ground-based DME station, which replies. The round-trip is measured, giving the distance from the station.

Maybe ICMP pings can be used to find out how much Cat 5 there is between you and the target machine :-) Of course, the time taken to process the ping by the target etc. must be taken into account.

Re:Practical Pinging

[Alien Being]

Sonar pinging like you hear on submarine movies is what i always assumed the name ping came from.

Re:Practical Pinging

[Anonymous Coward]

Pings are used to measure things in real life.

For example, DME (distance measuring equipment) in aviation. This works by equipment on the aircraft
sending a signal to the ground-based DME station, which replies. The round-trip is measured, giving the
distance from the station.

Pings have been used in aviation much earlier than that: see "radar".

My favorite part of the ping story

[Horizon_99]

Dunno how many of you read it but this is hilarious:

"The best ping story I've ever heard was told to me at a USENIX conference, where a network administrator with an intermittent Ethernet had linked the ping program to his vocoder program, in essence writing:

ping goodhost | sed -e 's/.*/ping/' | vocoder

He wired the vocoder's output into his office stereo and turned up the volume as loud as he could stand. The computer sat there shouting "Ping, ping, ping..." once a second, and he wandered through the building wiggling Ethernet connectors until the sound stopped. And that's how he found the intermittent failure."

-Horizon
"The universe is not required to be in perfect harmony with human ambition." - Carl Sagan

Technical theory behind this subject.

[rice_burners_suck]

Let me tell you something. You cannot measure the speed of light using Ping. What do you think Ping is, quantum physics hard at work? That's the most idiotic thing I've ever heard in my whole entire life. Because you know what? If you want to know the speed of light, just open a damn book. It's all there, black and white, clear as crystal. You stole phizzy lifting drink and floated up to the top of the tower which must now be washed and sterilized. And you need to remember the Boromir Principle, or whatever it's called, which says that the closer you try to measure some quantum physics stuff, the more messed up your measurements will be... or wait a minute... that's not what it says. It says that you can measure X or Y closely, but not both at the same time, and the accuracy of your measurement of X is inversely proportional to the accuracy of your measurement of Y. I just don't remember what the X and the Y were... What's that called, the Heisenberg thing? I don't know... it's been FOREVER since I've put a few good hours into reading all about physics, quantum mechanics, chemestry, superstring theory (or whatever they call it today), Calabi Chow spaces or whatever they're called, and who knows what else. :-) ...

Of course, if you can get the network to work exactly at the theoretical rate, you may actually be able to extrapolate the speed of light.However, that requires that I stop being an idiot and start writing some meaningful stuff in here. You see, what I've been doing in this stupid long and boring comment is just writing a bunch of crap to make it look at first glance as if I wrote a bunch of meaningful stuff, but really, it's just what I said it was a moment or two ago, no I think it was three moments ago, or was it four? You know what? I cannot tell because by the time I write a bunch more stuff, however many moments ago it was increased by a moment or two. Because you cannot stop the time, and that's really my point.

You see, time and the speed of light are really very closely intertwined! It works like this. Suppose that time is a dimension, kind of like our three dimensions of east/west, north/south, and up/down. So there's another dimension and it's past/future, and the present is almost nonexistant. The present is like the size of a tiny piece of an atom, if you could even measure it at all. What happens is this. Why is it that if you move an object at the speed of light, it like travels into the future or some bullshit like that? Actually, if you think about it for a while, speed is a measure of distance over time, or some garbage like that. What that really means is that, and by the way, the speed of light is the so-called alleged "cosmic speed limit" because THE SPEED OF LIGHT IS ACTUALLY THE SPEED OF TIME. Now if you go and read some books on the subject, there are really good explanations that I cannot reproduce here, for various reasons, and I will, for your convenient convenience, enumerate those items herein:

• Copyright violations. If I would include, say, a whole "commercial" book on physics and time and shit, that would probably be considered a violation of copyright law, and next thing you know, the copyright POLICE would show up at my door, and drag me kicking and screaming to the electric chair, where they would fry my happy ass.
• Because it would take too long for me to sit here like an idiot and transcribe (what a fancy word for "punch in the shit that I'm reading", eh?) the entire flipping book into this stupid freaking window, eh?
• Because Guiness sucks. That's right. That stuff tastes totally wrong. It's really weird shit. I prefer Negra Modelo. It's a Mexican beer, which means it's a correct beer. Actually, Negra Modelo is an ale. That's kind of like the difference between Madeira and Port, if you know what I mean. Guiness isn't a beer, and Guiness isn't an ale. It just isn't. It's incorrect. But Negra Modelo is correct. Some other Mexican beers aren't so good. Some are much better. But I like Negra Modelo because it is really the most awesome beer/ale/whatever the hell you want to call it in existance. Good with lime and salt, or without. Do it whatever way you want. By the way, I'm not into everything Mexican... For exampple, I hate tequila. It's gross, just like Guiness. Which brings me back to what I started saying a moment or two or three or... well, you get the point because I think I went over this whole moment and time and light thing in the previous paragraph, which is what brought me here, and if I start that whole damn thing again, this will become a recursive endless forever loop like for(;;) or some garbage like that. Actually, I like to write while (1) but many compilers are really stupid and they don't optimize out the "if" that goes in there somewhere, and they check against a gosh fucking constant, for crying out loud, and you know what? I think that sucks. But what the hell was I talking about? Oh yeah, the superb taste of Negra Modelo, and the deficiencies of Guiness, which sucks. (And I'm sure this pisses off a lot of people, like Linus, who probably wants to put a contract out on my happy ass, and RMS, who is probably committing suicide right now because if Guiness ever gets outlawed, that would probably mean the end of the GPL, or on the other hand, maybe RMS is quite happy right now, because he probably figures that beer should be open source, in other words, the brewery should release their recipes and all their trade secrets under the GPL, so that anybody could piss in the beer, or some garbage like that. Oh well.
• And the third reason... Or is it the fourth? I don't know, I've lost count. A couple of Negra Modelo's (because Guiness sucks) will do that to you. Oh well. I could write my own thing, and not plagiarize or whatever that stupid word is (and I can't even remember how to spell the damn thing) but that would take thought, time, and shit. And I don't have the patience for that kind of thing. So oh well.

So I will conclude that my conclusion is that I have discovered that there is no way in the entire universe that it would somehow be possible to use PING to measure the speed of LIGHT.

Einstein didn't use ping.

NEGRA MODELO. BECAUSE GUINESS SUCKS.

And then I had a revelation. A picture in my head. A picture of this! This is what makes time travel possible. The fluxcapacitor. As you can see, we've had our eye on you for some time now Mr. Anderson. It seems that you've been living two lives. In one, you're Thomas A. Anderson, program writer for a respectable software company. You have a social security number, you pay your taxes, and you help your landlady carry out her garbage. The other life is lived in computers, where you go by the hacker alias Neo and are guilty of virtually every computer crime we have a law for. One of these lives has a future, and one of them does not. Now I'm going to be as forthcoming with you as I can, Mr. Anderson. You're here because we need your help. We know that you've been contacted by a certain individual, a man who calls himself Morpheus. Whatever you think you know about this gentleman is irrelevant, he is considered by some authorities to be the most dangerous man alive. My partners think I'm wasting my time with you, but I believe you wish to do the right thing. We're willing to wipre the slate clean, give you a fresh start, and all we're asking is your cooperation in bringing a known terrorist to justice. That sounds like a really good deal, but I think I got a better one. How 'bout I give you the finger, and you give me my phone call. Hmmm... Mr. Anderson. You disappoint me. You can't scare me with this gestapo shit. I know my rights. I want my phone call. Tell me, Mr. Anderson. What good is a phone call, if you're unable to speak? The Matrix is a system Neo. That system is our enemy. Or some bullshit like that. Oh well.

Re:Technical theory behind this subject.

[vawlk]

Either:

1: Writer's block
2: Very bored

I vote for number 2 since I am too, and I actually read the whole thing laughing my ass off.

Now pardon me while I go find my ass.

Impedance of free space

[DotComVictim]

Hmm. Isn't this constant derived from the speed of light? Very convenient, yes?

Measuring the speed of light with a ruler

[harlows_monkeys]

One day in APh 23 (the introductory optics class) at Caltech, the professor announced it was time to measure the speed of light, and pulled a ruler out of his pocket. The class laughed.

He then turned on a laser of known wavelength, and reflected the beam off the ruler onto the chalkboard. The ruler had raised lines every 1/16th of an inch, and this made it basically act as a diffraction grating, and there was a clear diffraction pattern on the chalkboard. He marked off the pattern on the chalkboard with chalk, then took the ruler and measured the distance between the lines on the diffraction pattern. Then, still using the ruler, he measured the distance to where he had held the ruler.

A quick calculation later, and he had the speed of light.

I'm not sure that this was fully legitimate, because I can't think of a way to know the wavelength of the laser that doesn't involve already knowing the speed of light, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Speaking of interesting things to do with interference patterns, that professor did some work at Hughes on an optical weapon system. It had an array of radiators. Turn them all on, and you get a classic interference pattern, so you get a strong lobe in one direction, and not enough radiation in other directions to harm anything. The cool part was how it was aimed.

You aimed the main lobe by playing with the phase of the various radiators, so you didn't have to move things around to do fine aiming.

Here's the cool part. They used a feedback system. The modulated the phase of each radiator with a sine wave, using a different frequency for each radiator. They'd point a sensor at the target, and look for variations in the intensity of the reflection. If a particular radiator was at a phase that was contributing toward putting the max lobe on the target, there would be a weak variation in the reflection at the frequency of the sine wave they were modulating that radiator with (if the radiator is at the right phase, you are near a peak, and small variations from the modulation don't lose much). If a particular radiator's phase was way off, you'd get a strong single at the frequency of the modulation.

So, they could simply do a fourier analysis of the reflection, and see what radiators needed their phase adjusted to hit the target.

The professor had a film of a test, with a small number of radiators. They were all pointing at a black background, and you saw a kind of vague shifting light pattern. Then someone tossed a small metal model of the starship Enterprise in, and blam!, the phases were adjusted in a millisecond or so, and that thing lit up. It was very cool.

Ping Version?

[JerriMan]

My ping (installed from netkit-base-17) just gives a precision of tens of milliseconds. Which version gives such a precision as reported in the paper? Is there a patch out there? (I installed Linux from Scratch!)

Well,

[Eigenray]

I still like Finding the Speed of Light with Marshmallows

Note to moderators

[Anonymous Coward]

I just posted some extensive comments in the "How can this be accurate?" thread, regarding error analysis. Please take a look; I'm afraid it will get buried in the thread as an AC post.

GPS and Radio Time Signals

[cobyrne]

I once inadvertantly found myself measuring the speed of light using GPS and broadcast radio time signals

My project was to use a GPS system to generate a precise time signal for an experiment. (As part of the method they use for determining position, GPS systems have to determine the time to within a few nanoseconds or so, and some OEM GPS boards - like the one I was using - provide an accurate one pulse-per-second time signal for use). Anyway, I was having trouble understanding the signal, so I wired the signal, and a broadcast time signal from Moscow, into an oscilloscope.

There was a clear 11ms delay between when the GPS produced it's time signal and when I saw the signal from Moscow. I did the experiment in the west of Ireland, approximately 3,300km from Moscow...

Amazing post. Read and MOD Parent Up

[ecampbel]

Posts like these are why I still read slashdot.

Re:xxx.lanl.gov?

[Anonymous Coward]

'xxx' was pun on 'www' (increment one letter) -- back when the Web was new enough that puns like that were novel. As you may have guessed, the LANL arXiv actually has been blocked by porn filters before, which is perhaps one reason why 'arXiv.org' is used as an alternative to 'xxx.lanl.gov'.

Vacuum

[Anonymous Coward]

What vacuum? The one between the ears of these 'researchers'? Useless comparison. They measured the delay of a signal supposedly traveling at the 'speed of light'. Science is most excellent, NOT.

Re:Vacuum

[Anonymous Coward]

They measured the delay of a signal supposedly traveling at the 'speed of light'

If you read the paper, you will see that they measured the propagation speed of a signal in a cable, and got a value equal to about 2/3 that of the speed of light in vacuum.

If you think that's hilarious...

[Mawbid]

I have a wireless internet connection at home. A guy came and installed a directional antenna on the roof. He had me ping their gateway and he oriented the antenna while I read ping times to him over a two-way radio.

Well, I wasn't happy with the latency, so later I adjusted the antenna myself. But I didn't have anyone to read ping times to me and I wasn't too thrilled about this method anyway, so I came up with something better.

I wrote a perl script that would ping a host, wait for a reply (or a one second timeout), play a tick sound, and repeat the process. It sounds like a Geiger counter. The more frequent and steady the ticks, the better the connection. Also, every five seconds the script calls Festival to speak the average ping time. So, I get a nice intuitive feel for the connection through the stream of ticks, and a concrete measurement too.

Speakers out the window, full blast. Me on the roof. Neighbours' quizzical faces in the windows :-)

A fine story with a little irony?

[ajcpi]

With a great little tidbit:

• Software: We took data while running Linux on both computers. Although it should be possible to do this experiment with the new release of ping for Windows, because the authors were unfamiliar with Windows, Linux was chosen.
  

OT: physics units

[DJK]

My favorite velocity unit in HS physics was
angstroms per fortnight.

Re:OT: physics units

[Anonymous Coward]

You must have had one of those black and white marble covered composition notebooks. They had every weird old-fashioned unit in the conversion tables in the back.

In so you could convert fluid flow to:
hogshead per fortnight

gills per hogshead was a favorite useless conversion.

takes six months

[peter303]

You look for timing discrepencies when Jupiter is closest to the earth and furthest from the earth (about six months apart). The moons will appear to be slow or fast about fifteen minutes, or the light time to cross earth's orbital diameter.

Light path through fiber

[Spamalamadingdong]

Light does not "bounce" through single-mode fibers, and that category covers most long-distance transmission fiber.

Re:Light path through fiber

[anthony_dipierro]

Interesting. If the light travels perfectly straight without bouncing off the sides, why do we bother having the sides in the first place? Just send the laser beam straight through the air. Certainly the light must bounce. Otherwise explain how it gets around curves in the fiber.

Not bad

[epepke]

Physicists working with General Relativity frequently use units where c=1. This makes a lot more sense, as in GR c is more the aspect ratio of spacetime than it is a speed. Richard Feynman pointed out that in E=mc^2, c is just there to make the units work out. The problem is that we went on for hundreds of years thinking that energy and matter were different things, but it turns out they are related in a somewhat similar way that space is related to time. It's much prettier when you look at momentum (a 3-vector) and energy (a scalar). If you put these together, they make something that isn't really a 4-vector (but physicists don't use quaternions for this) but sort of works like that, if you imagine that the scalar is imaginary. The neat thing is that this 4-whatever transforms exactly the 4-whatever for spacetime.

Anyway, 1 lightyear/year is a fine, pure unit that is quite appropriate for working at galactic scale, at least.

The other nice coincidence is that the amount light travels in a naosecond is a little bit less than a foot, so about the length of a shoe.

Re:Not bad

[Verne]

The other nice coincidence is that the amount light travels in a naosecond is a little bit less than a foot, so about the length of a shoe

the speed of light is 3*10^8m/s
divide this by 10^9 for nanoseconds and it is 30cm/ns. I don't see what the big coincidence is here?

electron drift

[smartfart]

In fact, any given electron in the cable probably doesn't go anywhere.

When I took Circuits I and II at LSU, they taught us about this. A current travelling down a wire is taken to be the movement of positive charges. This is known as "hole flow", since a place where an electron isn't is a hole, and (IIRC) is positively-charged with repect to the departed electron.

Electrons are negative, and actually move in the direction opposite from the current. It's called electron drift, and the electrons move at only a fraction of the speed that the current flows. This speed can be calculated (if I could locate my old textbook, I'd post the formula).

Current (or hole) flow is much faster than the corresponfing electron drift. A very bad analogy would be sound travelling through a medium. The molecules don't have to travel very far at all to transmit the sound waves. Current flows faster than the actual electrons because when we are discussing current, we are talking about the movement of charges, not the movement of electrons. Current is the change in charge with respect to time.

Ping Review on Amazon.com

[scubacuda]

Here's the REAL story about ping.

(Check out the first Spotlight Review by El Segundo.)

The real results

[Anonymous Coward]

$ ping wolfstar

70ms

I conclude the speed of light is 70ms. Please give me a research grant.

Think QM, not classical physics

[Spamalamadingdong]

The fiber has to have "sides" so that there is only one mode - one solution to the wave equation - that the light can take through the fiber. It's like radio travelling over a coaxial cable; the energy isn't bouncing between the inner and outer conductors, or at least it can't until the circumference of the cable approaches a wavelength (which it can with big cables and really high microwave frequencies); then you get dispersion and other strange effects. Bending the fiber doesn't make anything "bounce", it just changes the boundary conditions and forces the wave to curve with the glass (and allows some probability of photons leaking out of the core if the curvature is tight enough, which is how some fiber-tapping techniques work).

Re:Think QM, not classical physics

[anthony_dipierro]

OK. I'll buy it. :) Thanks for the info.

Mirror of "the story of ping"

[jfengel]

"The Story of the Ping" site is slashdotted, but it is available from Google's cache

Google, I suspect, is harder to slashdot.

c = 1

[Fred Ferrigno]

I thought Planck units would be a neat way to measure things, being based off of measurable constants. C would always be 1, or at least a power of 10, because Planck time is defined as the time it takes a photon to travel one Planck length, which is in turn defined by other constants and physical rules. I don't know much more about the system, but it would seem to simplify a number of calculations a great deal.

Check out planck.com for more info. I would too if my network were not eating packets right now.

Re:c = 1

[Anonymous Coward]

Planck units are used almost exclusively in quantum gravity, where the Planck scale is relevant. In other areas, the exponents are just too big and unwieldy.

Ping around the world

[SkewlD00d]

That means that to ping the other side of the world, through wire, takes a minimum of 318 +/- 22 ms (round-trip) best case.

round trip time=pi*diameter earth/propagation speed

diameter: 12,756.3 km = 12756300 m
pi: 3.141593
prop speed: 118000000 +/- 9000000 m/s

Re:Ping around the world

[SkewlD00d]

The absolute minimum delay would be through the earth and back, in a vacuum:

2 * diameter of earth * speed of light ~= 85 ms

What the heck is wrong with using an oscilloscope?

[Anonymous Coward]

Lack of knowledge? Lack of faith in its time-base calibration? Afaik, some real beauties of Tek. 450 and 460-series portables are going for heartbreakingly-low prices.

Nick Bodley, Waltham