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Re-Building the Wright Flyer

Isaac-Lew writes: "Several teams are trying to build a working replica of the first Wright Brothers' airplane." As the article says, "The catch is: Each team wants its plane to fly more or less as the Wrights' did." The only problem with that is that as Orville Wright put it, their plane was "exceedingly erratic," so the recreators have made some slight concessions to safety.

175 comments

  1. Answering the obvious question - why? by Brento · · Score: 2, Redundant

    They're trying to build a version to fly at Kitty Hawk for the centennial celebration of the original flight, December 17th 1903.

    --
    What's your damage, Heather?
    1. Re:Answering the obvious question - why? by Julius+X · · Score: 2

      How much do you wanna bet the weather won't cooparate with that one?

      I can see a Nor'Easter blowing up the coast already....

      --

      -Julius X
      remove "-whatkindofspamdoyoutakemefor-" from email to send
    2. Re:Answering the obvious question - why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Makes you wonder whether technology will have advanced so much that 80-odd years from now, people will be making homebuilt Space Shuttles to celebrate it's centenary...

      Cool!

    3. Re:Answering the obvious question - why? by why-is-it · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They're trying to build a version to fly at Kitty Hawk for the centennial celebration of the original flight, December 17th 1903.

      Not to belabour the point - but why?

      Sure, it was an important achievement, but what's the point? And why have more than one team? Bragging rights are all that seems to be on the line here. So, in the race to build the first, best replica, a number of teams are devoting a lot of time and resources to a project that will add nothing to the body of human knowledge and experience - regardless of the outcome.

      So I will ask the obvious question again. Why? There is nothing wrong with marking the occasion, but this is way OTT.

      --
      *** Where are we going? And what's with this handbasket?
    4. Re:Answering the obvious question - why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Because many aeronautical engineers have looked at Flyer-1 and they aren't really sure how it can fly at all. By building one and attempting to get it airborne, this question an be answered.

    5. Re:Answering the obvious question - why? by sconeu · · Score: 2

      The correct answer is, "Why the F*CK not???".

      These guys are fanboys of the Wrights. They have the time and the money (or sponsorship) to do it. So f*cking what if it "will add nothing to the body of human knowledge and experience".

      To put it in the words of Sir George Mallory (sp?): "Because it's there!"

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    6. Re:Answering the obvious question - why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Aerodynamicists can look at the Flyer and figure out how it flew - and can appreciate the fact that without the 21 to 27 mph wind that was blowing on December 17, 1903, that it would have been VERY hard for the Wrights to get those first flights off like they did.

      However, make no mistake - the 1903 Flyer was aerodynamically capable of flying. The 1904 Flyer II was basically the same machine (with a reduced camber), and it flew a few thousand feet before the Wrights started using catapults.

      It's just with the wind at Kill Devil Hills, it helped alot so those first four flights could take place.

  2. Wussies! by Khan · · Score: 1

    "The recreators have made some slight concessions to safety." Bah! If you're going to recreate it, recreate it all the way including the "risks" If you're afraid of cracking your head open, wear a helmut!

    --

    "Klaatu, verada, necktie!" -Ash

    1. Re:Wussies! by red-tail-hawk · · Score: 1

      yea.. my suggestion, jet-assisted takeoff. that will get it off the ground.

    2. Re:Wussies! by Surlyboi · · Score: 0

      If you're afraid of cracking your head open, wear a helmut!

      Yeah, then instead of having a fractured skull,
      you'll just have a pissed-off German guy...

      --
      Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...
    3. Re:Wussies! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly what I thought!

      I'd recommend wearing a Schulz or a Col. Klink.

      They don't add to safety, but boy, _are_ they funnier!

      8^D

  3. What reminds me.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Do you Americans still insist the Brothers did the first flyght? What about Santos Dumont?

    1. Re:What reminds me.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      "Santos-Dumont, Alberto (1873-1932), Brazilian aeronaut and designer of dirigible balloons, born in Palmyra (now Santos Dumont), Minas Gerais State. In 1897 he attempted his first balloon ascent at Paris. The following year he successfully launched a cylindrical balloon. In 1901 he won a prize by flying his dirigible, which was 20.1 m (66 ft) long and 3.5 m (11.5 ft) in diameter with a propeller operated by a 4.5 horsepower gasoline engine, from Saint-Cloud to the Eiffel Tower and back, a trip of less than an hour. In 1902 he tried to cross the Mediterranean in this ship but crashed into the sea. In 1909 he produced a monoplane called the grasshopper"

      From: Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2002

    2. Re:What reminds me.. by raelitycheckbounced · · Score: 1
      But who was the first to sell out to the good old US military?

      1908 February 8 - The U.S. War Department concludes a contract with the Wright Brothers for $25,000 to become the owner of one flying machine.

      and 90 years later, the military still thow insane amounts of money at crazy inventions that look like they have no real applications.

    3. Re:What reminds me.. by Nicolas+MONNET · · Score: 2

      Isn't it Clément Ader? He flew a powered plane in 1890.

    4. Re:What reminds me.. by ebbe11 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Although Santos Dumont did manage to get a powered airplane off the ground, he didn't do so until 1906, i.e. three years after the Wright brothers.

      But while we're at it, don't forget Jacob Ellehammer, the Danish flying pioneer. He also flew in 1906 but as his plane was tethered to a central pole his flight is usually not considered the first flight in Europe even though he flew before Santos Dumont did.

      --

      My opinion? See above.
    5. Re:What reminds me.. by seafortn · · Score: 1

      And who was the first man to die in an airplane crash? An Army Lieutenant by the name of Thomas Selfridge, recieving flight instruction from Orville... Probably in that $25,000 machine, too. http://www.pr.erau.edu/~case/library/reports1/16.h tml (sorry, I can't recall how to make the link work right now)

    6. Re:What reminds me.. by Alien54 · · Score: 3, Funny
      But while we're at it, don't forget Jacob Ellehammer, the Danish flying pioneer. He also flew in 1906 but as his plane was tethered to a central pole his flight is usually not considered the first flight in Europe even though he flew before Santos Dumont did.

      I had the mental image of a rope winding it's way around a pole. to an ending fit for a cartoon.

      --
      "It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
    7. Re:What reminds me.. by ipxodi · · Score: 4, Informative

      You're comparing apples and oranges -- The Wright brothers made the first powered flight WITHOUT a "lighter-than-air" technology. Previously all succesful flights had been made using ballons, dirigibles, etc.

      --
      load "windows7" ,8,1
    8. Re:What reminds me.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Oh, BTW...

      His first airplane was one named "14-bis", which many claim to have been the first plane.

      Wright invented the airplane? Pearce? Adler? Well, the entire press was there to see Msr. Santos-Dumont fly. Paris was the capital of the world -- by then, the US were still not very "central".

      Anybody can claim to have been the first. Who can tell if the incas couldn't fly and see Nazca drawings from up above?

      (Personally, I'd hand the glory to Otto Lillienthal, who died experimenting with powerless planes.)

      And, I can't remember any of Santos-Dumont's planes named "grasshopper". There was one, though, called "Dragonfly" -- the French use a much more delicate word which reminds of lightweightness (sp?).

      -- NIH ;-) --

    9. Re:What reminds me.. by lotrfan · · Score: 4, Informative

      At least what they said. No one have a single proff of it besides their word. I'm not saying they didn't it, but scientifically speaking, it was not audited and could not be reproductible so it's not science, it's speculation. Santos Dumont flight was seen by hundreds of people, have photographs, film and so on, was reproduced lots of times and was the real base for the comercial aviation as we all know. I agree that other technologies came first (balloons, dirigibles, etc), but Santos Dumont was the real thing to be consistently called a powered flying machine. But they all add their insights to the work of one man, Leonardo da Vinci, the real genius behind lots of our inventions: Parachute, Helicopter, Delta Wing, etc.

    10. Re:What reminds me.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is why

      Birds Fly
      Men Drink

    11. Re:What reminds me.. by ebbe11 · · Score: 1
      I had the mental image of a rope winding it's way around a pole. to an ending fit for a cartoon.

      <Grin> Yes, I see what you mean. </Grin>

      However, Ellehammer's flight was not long enough for that to happen. And even if it had been, he was actually smarter than that. For instance, he used a three-cylinder air-cooled star-engine so at least in this respect he was way ahead of his competitors.

      --

      My opinion? See above.
  4. personally... by hype7 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'd be much more interested to see them try to recreate Da Vinci's one :)

    ::evil laugh::

    After his first flight, he refused to talk about it again :)

    -- james

  5. Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Coz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I spent some time looking at various web sites about this yesterday - seems the original Flyer would Dutch roll from take-off to landing, and was very unfriendly in ground-effect. This made landing - interesting - until they finally cracked it up. Good thing it went so slowly that it didn't hurt so much when they hit.

    By today's standards, the thing's unflyable - horrible control authority, CG all wrong, underpowered... Orville and Wilbur had to be talented in the first place to fly it. Of course, this is the basic device that we started from to derive "today's standards". I hope none of the replica teams crack up... there's enough aviation hysteria these days, without a "reenactment" generating more bad press.

    Must be fun, inventing a whole science, and a set of industries.

    --
    I love vegetarians - some of my favorite foods are vegetarians.
    1. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Surak · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My understanding having watched some things on TLC, the Discovery Channel, PBS, etc., is that some teams have already produced the flyer, they just can't get it to fly. And they have NO IDEA how the Wright Bros. were able to get the original one off the ground. The idea was that they've been doing this for years and can't get it to fly.

      I'll believe they can get it to fly when I see it. :) The thing was built specifically for the original pilot's weight, height etc. Also as you point out, it took a lot of skill to fly that thing... way more than a pilot needs today.

    2. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by thogard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've been reading rec.aviation.student for a number of years.
      One problem that all student pilots have is that they start overcontrolling the plane after about 10 hours. Most students are better at flying a modern (1960s?) airplane after 5 hours of instruction than at 10 hours. The reason is they try to compensate for every small dip. The planes dihedral will be doing the same adjsutments and the result is the plane goes the other way like any over controlled system. It can take another 10 hours to unlearn over controlling. I suspect that anyone with a 1/2 decent grasp of flying will over control the eary Wright flyers. Were the Wright brothers even controlling the plane or just along for the ride?

      There is a nice landing strip near the Wright Brothers Memorial called First Flight. Just don't park there for more than 24 hours or a park ranger will give you a parking ticket.

    3. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Da+Penguin · · Score: 1

      > CG all wrong, underpowered..

      Why would they need a ChainGun?

    4. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by megapatzer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a story about a British glider pilot, who created an exact replica of (I believe) a Percy Pilcher glider, to fly on the 100th anniversary of his death.
      In order to make the replica realistic, the materials, and construction method used were closely modelled on those available at the time, and the first flight took place from exactly the same spot that Pilcher had taken off a hundred years previously.
      The subsequent accident was an exact replica of Pilchers', except that the pilot was rushed to hospital by ambulance, and consequently survived his injuries.

    5. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Coz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They actually controlled it to some degree through body lean - their hips were cradled, and one of the control sets was wired up to that cradle.

      By all accounts I've seen, it was a full-body experience.

      --
      I love vegetarians - some of my favorite foods are vegetarians.
    6. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Rogerborg · · Score: 1
      • some teams have already produced the flyer, they just can't get it to fly. And they have NO IDEA how the Wright Bros. were able to get the original one off the ground

      I heard they glued a bunch of bumblebees to the wings...

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      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    7. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Rogerborg · · Score: 1, Redundant
      • I hope none of the replica teams crack up... there's enough aviation hysteria these days, without a "reenactment" generating more bad press

      Any reason it has to have a live pilot? How about a crash test dummy and some remote controls?

      Or (even better) how about an onboard or offboard expert system? There's a nice limited set of variables to work on: height 0 - 3 metres, speed as fast as you can manage, go in a straight line, don't make a crater when you land. Seems like an ideal application.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    8. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by morcheeba · · Score: 2
      For those curious what a Dutch roll is. From this site:

      Dutch roll diagram
      The second oscillation is known as the Dutch roll (named for the motion of an ice skater). According to one NASA research pilot, an airplane in the Dutch roll mode "resembles a snake slithering." Obviously, this is not a desirable way to travel off the ground. This complex oscillation combines several factors including yaw, roll, dihedral effect, lift, and drag. In a Dutch roll, the airplane's nose typically rotates through about three degrees. When an airplane tries to find the runway, there is only about one degree of margin for safe runway touchdowns.
    9. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The basic design of the Wright flyer is unstable. A modern design has inherent stability in the design (except for certain fighter airplanes) This means that small pertubations (say a gust) will not cause aircraft to do crazy things. Typically it means that the aircraft returns to the original position after a small time with minor attitude chages.

      This is what the pilots talk about.

      On the Wright design this isn't the case. Any disturbance is amplified and, unless corrected, will just get worse. This plane would take massive effort to fly. Every gust would have to be handled correctly. If you over-correct your in trouble, if you under-correct you are in trouble. I don't know the specific wind tunnel data from this project, but the control surfaces and the power available are inadequate to control a plane.

      I've got a Master's in Aerodynamics and have been involved in the design and testing of several flying aircraft.

      What the Wright brothers did would freak out everybody except the most hardcore adventure nut.

    10. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Banjonardo · · Score: 2, Informative
      They used a jeep to pull it. The first self-propelled, self-take-offing airplane was Alberto Santos Dumont's BIS-14.

      He is recognized as th father of aviation in many countries, especially France and his native Brazil. (Where we have never heard of the Wright brothers. In fact, I wouldn't learn about them until I moved to the U.S. from Brazil.)

      --

      -----

      Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton

    11. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Samuel+Hughes · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, that's what others tried to do. The Wright brothers shunned that method, instead using wires to warp the wings.

    12. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      100% incorrect.

      The Wrights did not start to use a catapult (not a JEEP - it didn't exist then) until September of 1904. They flew from May until September of 1904 at Huffman Prarie using nothing but 2x4 rails topped with lead strips (and bicycle hubs for 'wheels') as the launching device.

      Santos-Dumont's 14-bis (the correct name) was a bastard in aviation history. It's basic design went nowhere past his own machine. But, I'll grant Alberto a ton of courage by flying with a 50 hp Antoinette engine inches behind him. That took guts!

    13. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Hey man, this is slashdot. I'll use as many incorrect facts as I need to prove my point. (That he is the father of modern aviation.)

      Hmm..... that sounds like a good sig. The "I'll use..." phrase.

      Of course, I should post anonymously in order to preserve my ever-precious karma.

    14. Re:Exceedingly Erratic == Unsafe by Surak · · Score: 2

      They used a jeep to pull it.

      How could they have used a *JEEP* in 1903? Jeeps weren't even *invented* until like 1941. Please put the crack pipe down.

  6. Ha! They'll be in for a surprise! by Trinition · · Score: 2, Funny

    Won't they be in for a surprse when they find out it doesn't fly? Flying is a myth, just like that government-sponsored tale about men walking on the moon.

    It says so in my 1962 Soviet Encyclopedia.

  7. Why are there "secrets"? by phr2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The part about discouraging workshop photographs in order to not leak info to the competition is weird. What modern high tech processes are there to protect, if you're trying to do something the same way it was done 100 years ago? I'd have thought most of the interest in a project like this was in being as open and historically accurate as possible.

  8. Warning!! by JJ · · Score: 3, Funny

    Don't fly!!!!! You'll get too close to the sun and your wings will melt. (This from another early flight pioneer.)

    --
    So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
    1. Re:Warning!! by micromoog · · Score: 2

      Nice . . . too bad the moderators aren't as well-read as you.

    2. Re:Warning!! by JJ · · Score: 1

      Alas poor Yorick, now is the winter of our discontent.

      --
      So long and thanks for all the fish . . . !!!
    3. Re:Warning!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      alas poor yorlik, i knew him backwards

    4. Re:Warning!! by LedZeplin · · Score: 1

      Which is ironicly depicted on the Doors of the Wright Memorial.

  9. Which approach should be taken in this case by shockwaverider · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There are two approaches that can be taken when restoring/rebuilding things

    a) Make it exactly as it was
    b) Make it better

    Usually I'd say that you should always make it exactly as it was, but in this case lives would be at stake if you followed that approach - So there's an argument for at least *some* improvement.

    The question is - how far should they go in their improvements...

    --
    Remember kids! Guns don't kill people - Americans kill people.
    1. Re:Which approach should be taken in this case by smashin234 · · Score: 1

      "Everything will be authentic. "There is no purpose, in our opinion, to not be," he said"

      They even contradict themselves. They tell us it will be authentic while making concessions that The Wright Brothers would not make.

      Does not sound like it is authentic if they use better glue, materials, etc. I do not like to hear about re-creations going bad more then anything, but it seems a little outregous that people are spending so much time and money to test this plane to make it better. Why not just buy a cesna, save money, and fly that and say its a recreation of the first flight?

      I guess I just do not see the thrill in watching people fly a plane that is supposed to be authentic when it really is not.

    2. Re:Which approach should be taken in this case by Rogerborg · · Score: 2
      • Usually I'd say that you should always make it exactly as it was, but in this case lives would be at stake if you followed that approach

      Any reason it has to have a live pilot? How about a crash test dummy and some remote controls?

      Or (even better) how about an onboard or offboard expert system? There's a nice limited set of variables to work on: height 0 - 3 metres, speed as fast as you can manage, go in a straight line. Seems like an ideal application.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    3. Re:Which approach should be taken in this case by CoreyG · · Score: 2

      There was an article in Air&Space about a restoration of a WWI vintage airplane. It turns out the original had a flaw in the fuel tank baffles that starved the engine during rolls. To keep the plane as original as possible, they utilized the same type of flawed-baffle system even though a fix for the problem was easily contrived. Such exactness is extremely important to the restoration crowd. That's according to my memory though...

    4. Re:Which approach should be taken in this case by SuperLiquidSex · · Score: 0

      Just wanted you to know, your sig had me LMAO. Nice one.

      --
      Oops....you'll know what I'm talkin about in a bit.
  10. If they had been French by mirko · · Score: 2

    They might have tried to reconstitute Clement Ader's Eole but actually it seems the Wright brothers were the first who could prove they had flown.

    Remind me of a movie :-)

    --
    Trolling using another account since 2005.
  11. Hmm. by Moosechees · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Living near Dayton, OH, we're always hearing about stuff like this. I just helped rebuild this site about the Wright Brothers Flyer and go to Wright State University. Also, I hear Stickman uses one on occasion.

    1. Re:Hmm. by TalkingToes · · Score: 1

      You could also go down and ride in a replica Wright 'B' flier at the Dayton/Wright Brothers airport. (Near I75-I675 split) Can't miss it, they drew the faces of the brothers on the side of the building!
      For $600, (donation to upkeep/rent/etc) they will strap you in the 2nd seat, taxi to one end of the run way, and fly to the other end, and taxi back.
      It is 60% original, as the FCC will not allow a fully wooden aircraft to be certified.
      They do fly it on rare occasions from their airport to the WPAFB ~30 miles north, and load it into a C-5 (or some other huge plane) for special shows. It was wild seeing this thing rock back and forth as I was driving I-675, seeing is believing!

      --
      5'16" is easy math, so why do so many miss it?
    2. Re:Hmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It is 60% original, as the FCC will not allow a fully wooden aircraft to be certified.

      Why wouldn't the FCC certify it? A fully wooden aircraft wouldn't interfere with ANY sort of communication signals (AM, FM, Cell...you name it!)

    3. Re:Hmm. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Perhaps steel is a BIT stronger than wood? Better structure to fly with?

  12. Were the Wrights first? by macjerry · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Some folks, mainly from New Zealand, make a strong case that Richard Pearse made the first powered flight. Pearse belives it was in March, 1904, but others claim March, 1903 or even 1902. Even if he wasn't first, his design is surprising modern: " a monoplane configuration, wing flaps and rear elevator, tricycle undercarriage with steerable nosewheel, and a propeller with variable-pitch blades driven by a unique double-acting horizontally opposed petrol engine."

    1. Re:Were the Wrights first? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3

      Give Me A Break. Richard Pearse says in his own letter that he never achieved true flight and that he did not beat the Wright brothers.

    2. Re:Were the Wrights first? by bluGill · · Score: 2

      The french (no reference, but I think it is true) had pwered flight for years before the wright brothers. The wright brothers however were able to maintain [semi]controlled flight for several hours, while the french made uncontrolled hops of up to 200 feet before crashing controllably.

    3. Re:Were the Wrights first? by =Egon= · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, they werent.

      Santos Dumont was the first to accomplish a full flight. It took off alone and it landed. The wrights only got some seconds in the air, and this because they were thrown with the help of a machine
      You may check that with any history teacher.
      But why some people (eg. the americans) dont give him the credits is a whole other story.

    4. Re:Were the Wrights first? by Tenebrious1 · · Score: 2

      Heh heh... I was travelling around Minas Gerais, Brazil, when my hosts brought me to the museum. I'd never heard of Santos-Dumont until that point. We debated it for a while, but as my Portuguese wasn't all that good I could never get the finer points across- not that I had any fine points to make since the first "flight" at Kitty Hawk consisted of being flung off a catapult and landing a few seconds later and I really couldn't argue against a self powered takeoff and landing.

      But after a magnificent dinner and a night bar hopping around Belo Horizonte, and meeting some great guys and some fine women, and having one of the best nights of my life, I was willing to concede them their spot in history. OK, so I sold out for alcohol and the company of women, but it was well worth it!

      --
      -- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
    5. Re:Were the Wrights first? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He also wrote that letter while he was insane (he went mad). It shouldn't be taken any more seriously than if he had said he flew to the moon.

      Weather records of snowfall in conjunction with local peoples' memories put the flight in 1903. Not that it matters one iota as there had already been heavier-than-air flights before the 20th century began.

    6. Re:Were the Wrights first? by Banjonardo · · Score: 1
      And Santos Dumont was a Brazilian. In fact, we Brazilians have never heard of these Wright guys. I hadn't till I moved to the U.S.

      Granted, Santos Dumont built and flew the BIS-14 in France. But the domestic (not international) airport in Rio is the Santos Dumont, (always full of traffic from the damned taxis) his house is a museum in Petropolis, etc.

      --

      -----

      Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton

    7. Re:Were the Wrights first? by Banjonardo · · Score: 1

      Glad to know people still go to Brazil, but the aviation museum (his house) is in Petropolis, not Belo Horizonte. I assume we're talking about the same museum? The one with the staircase that's made of half-steps?

      --

      -----

      Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton

    8. Re:Were the Wrights first? by mat · · Score: 1

      I think that Clément Ader was the first to make a flight (only a few meters yes), at least if some people are not agree with this word, it is certainly the first take off !
      Nevertheless, everyone is agree that the Eole and the Wrights brothers'plane have nothing to compare : http://www.ctie.monash.edu.au/hargrave/ader.html (scroll down to see the pictures).

    9. Re:Were the Wrights first? by mamahuhu · · Score: 1

      1902 was the year that Pearse began his flight experiments: - His first aircraft was built over a number of years and flight-tested from 1902

      The letter you refer to is one in which he said that the Wright Brothers will get the credit for flying first.....

      On this page referrence to the two letters is made. But there is a large amount of ambiguity about what he acheived in 1902.

      Pearse's definition of 'flight' was far more rigorous than the Wright brothers'.

      By that same definition the Wright brothers never 'flew' in 1903. They never got out of ground effect, and never for more than few seconds. People have long argued that Pearse's definition of flight is more complete than the Wrights' and so when he said that he never flew in 1902 - he meant it.... but by the same definition the Wrights didn't either.

      So if flying in ground effect counts as first flight - Pearse's hops and short flights perhaps count too - from 1902.

      When people look at the Wright flyer - it looks archaic..... but at the same time Pearse's aircraft was more sophistocated... his first aircraft was a remarkable invention embodying several far-sighted concepts: a monoplane configuration, wing flaps and rear elevator, tricycle undercarriage with steerable nosewheel, and a propeller with variable-pitch blades driven by a unique double-acting horizontally opposed petrol engine.

      At the same time that the Wright Brother's were 'flying' in an oversized box kite Pearse was flying a machine that bears a remarkable similarity to modern day ultra-lights.

      Whether or not the Wrights or Pearse flew first there is another who was flying around the same time Gustave Whitehead

      "In the early morning hours of 14 August 1901, near Bridgeport, Connecticut, a small graceful monoplane took to the air with its inventor and builder, Gustave Whitehead at the controls,carrying him for half a mile before landing undamaged."

      So probably the only thing you can claim about the Wright brothers is that they were masters of publicity well before their time.

    10. Re:Were the Wrights first? by DoomPlague · · Score: 1

      >>>But why some people (eg. the americans) dont give him the credits is a whole other story.

      American's do that for the same reason that everyone else believes that airplanes were invented by one of their own. There's nothing strange about it.

      American's have contributed plenty in the past 100-150 years. They don't have to get antsy about the Wright bros. really.

      There is too much confusion on this issue for me to argue, that's for sure.

    11. Re:Were the Wrights first? by Tenebrious1 · · Score: 2

      Yeah, that's the one, stopped on the way from Rio to Belo. We were going to meet family of my friends, I don't remember anymore where we went- wish I'd kept a better travel log.

      Too many people fly into Rio and never leave the city- that's too bad, I found so much more driving around with my hosts and staying with their friends and families in towns outside Belo, Rio, and SP.

      --
      -- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
  13. First flight by pkplex · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Of course you blokes all know that kiwis were the first to fly, right? :)

    Fair go, its true.

    1. Re:First flight by pkplex · · Score: 1

      Yes, A kiwi is indeed a flightless bird. A kiwi is also an alias for a New Zealand citizen :)

  14. now that this is underway... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    they should start working on a way to get it to mars in time for that centennial flight referred to in the future timeline.

  15. authenticity of parts and methods by stego · · Score: 2

    The place that I work is working with one of the teams to ensure that manufacture and treatment of the fabric used is as close as possible to the original. "Another area of research...is the determination of the finish used on the fabric. Air proofing the fabric may have been a trade secret of the Wright Brothers. There was mention of a finish in the Wright brother's log book, but never mentioned again."

    I'm not using any names because I'm not sure that I'm allowed. I'm just one of the IT guys...

  16. Hrmmmm... by dynoman7 · · Score: 1

    I wonder what distro will be running one it?!?!

    --
    Blarf.
    1. Re:Hrmmmm... by dynoman7 · · Score: 1

      That should say "on" not "one"...whoops. Need more sleep...

      --
      Blarf.
  17. Seems that they have forgotten one thing.... by Julius+X · · Score: 2

    I think they are being a bit too cautious. It seems that all the teams, being worried about safety have forgotten a couple things about the airplane that do not apply to any plane they have ever known.

    The fact is, that the Wright flyer only flew 12 seconds on that first flight, and I'm sure it didn't do it very quickly, or very high up. I highly doubt that a crash in the flyer would really do that much damage to the pilot. After all, the Wrights themselves seemed to come out of the final crash that first day with no ill effects. I doubt they even had protective pads on!

    So if their goal is to crecreate the plane and recreate that first flight--I think folks are fretting just a bit too much about "safety" issues. These guys need to grow some cohones....

    --

    -Julius X
    remove "-whatkindofspamdoyoutakemefor-" from email to send
    1. Re:Seems that they have forgotten one thing.... by mccalli · · Score: 5, Funny
      The fact is, that the Wright flyer only flew 12 seconds on that first flight, and I'm sure it didn't do it very quickly...

      Err...surely it did it in twelve seconds?

      Cheers,
      Ian

    2. Re:Seems that they have forgotten one thing.... by Julius+X · · Score: 2

      I meant as far as velocity/speed, not time.

      "I'm sure they didn't fly very fast" may have been better.

      --

      -Julius X
      remove "-whatkindofspamdoyoutakemefor-" from email to send
    3. Re:Seems that they have forgotten one thing.... by micromoog · · Score: 2

      Yeah, as I recall from the museum at Kitty Hawk, they would actually take turns running alongside the plane until it was flying stable. This thing couldn't have been doing more than 15mph. And I don't think it got over 4-5 feet of altitude on the first flight.

    4. Re:Seems that they have forgotten one thing.... by capncook · · Score: 1

      In aviation, there is no such thing as too cautious! You are totaly underestimating the level of danger involved. Anything that flies that is hard to control, is underpowered, and very fragile, like all early airplanes is potentially deadly, even though the craft may fly slow. Orville was almost killed in this crash, and his passenger became the first victim of a powered flight. This was in an improved airplane, too! So, please give a little more credit to people that want to recreate the first flight, not the first crash.

      --
      Learn to fly! www.beapilot.com
    5. Re:Seems that they have forgotten one thing.... by craw · · Score: 1

      37 meters in 12 seconds, or approximately 6 knots. Essentially, jogging speed. Their longest flight that day was 260 meters in 59 seconds.

      Come visit Washington, DC, and visit the Air and Space Meusem.. Personally, I like the Bell X-1.

  18. Has to be authentic. Which means dangerous. by RobL3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I've noticed some posts along the line of "Safety first, authenticity later".
    I couldn't disagree more. If you're not going to try to duplicate the entire effort, including the not insubstantial risks involved with the dawn of any new era, what is the point? You might as well build an "Almost Scale" RC model and fly it around. It would serve exactly the same purpose with no risk. I'm not saying that all possible safety precautions shouldn't be taken (external to the airplane itself), but build it to origional spec, then decide to fly it or not.
    I guess my point here is that I make the concious decision to get on my old BMW motorcycle every morning. I know it's dangerous, but it's also exciting and a throwback to a time, not so long ago, that we took risks in the name of advancement and the simple thrill of being alive. Recreating the Wright Flyer to modern standards is just a symptom of our overly cautious, airbag equipped, warning label on the coffie times.
    Of course this will be modded down, my target audiance sits in a cube all day and considers a walk in the park an outing.

  19. Make it better? by jonr · · Score: 2

    Wtf? Why not get a Cessna or something then? That is a 'improved' version. I mean, if they are going to build a replica celebrating the flight of 1903, they should make it excatly (sp) the same. (IMHO, of course)

  20. No, no, no! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The first person to make a public flight on a heavier-than-air machine was Santos Dumont. The Wright brothers had as witnesses a bunch of people they were (oh, joy!) paying to do just that - sit there and watch. Now, how reliable is that?

  21. Wright Brothers did not fly first by lifebouy · · Score: 0, Troll

    Who was the guy who flew before the wright bros? I remember that there were lots of eye witness accounts. I also remember reading that Germany recognises him as the first flyer. If I recall, his flight was longer than the Wright brothers as well. Just goes to show you how badly American schools have mangled history (more like hystery, the way its taught). Just look at Nicola Tesla, all the things he did that that swindler Thomas Edison gets credit for. I would hate to be a history teacher. The lessons would just stick in my craw.

    --
    Drop me a line at:
    Key ID: 0x54D1D809
    1. Re:Wright Brothers did not fly first by radja · · Score: 3, Insightful

      wasn't it the first POWERED flight?

      //rdj

      --

      No one can understand the truth until he drinks of coffee's frothy goodness.
      --Sheikh Abd-Al-Kadir, 1587
    2. Re:Wright Brothers did not fly first by lifebouy · · Score: 1

      www.deepsky.com
      No. In fact it wasn't. That's yet another myth propigated by the Smithsonian Institute of Lies.

      --
      Drop me a line at:
      Key ID: 0x54D1D809
    3. Re:Wright Brothers did not fly first by lifebouy · · Score: 1

      propagated, even.

      --
      Drop me a line at:
      Key ID: 0x54D1D809
    4. Re:Wright Brothers did not fly first by loopkin · · Score: 1

      well, not exactly

      technically, the first powered flight of a machine heavier than air was by Clement Ader's Eole, in 1890, as you can see here.

      however, Ader's planes lacked evolved flight controls (no tail, and thus very difficult to pilot), and the lack of power of the steam engine was another big issue.

    5. Re:Wright Brothers did not fly first by kfg · · Score: 1

      Ummmm, no. For decades the Smithsonian refused to acknowledge the Wrights as the first, giving the honor instead to Langley, former director of the Smithsonian itself.

      You're right in that the Smithsonian propogated lies, but you've got the order backwards.

      KFG

    6. Re:Wright Brothers did not fly first by RapaNui · · Score: 1

      The character you are probably thinking of is "Gustave (sp?) Whitehead (Weisskopf)" a German immigrant in the US, somewhere in the North-East, IIRC.

      He apparently flew (manned, controlled, and powered,) in 1901.

      See here.

  22. Wrong Way Round by nmg196 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The main trouble is - they flew it backwards. If they turned it around a flew it the other way, then they wouldn't have all the instability problems you get with carard configuration aircraft... IMHO.

    I wonder whether turning it round counts as a "consession to safety".... :)

    Nick...

    1. Re:Wrong Way Round by delcielo · · Score: 2

      The trouble with the modern configuration, however, is that it's less efficient. In the canard configuration both surfaces are lifing up, while in the modern or conventional configuration, the horizontal stabilizer in back lifts down. That would have required the wright flyer to have more efficient wings, and perhaps even more thrust.

      --
      Hot Damn! It's the Soggy Bottom Boys!
    2. Re:Wrong Way Round by james_shoemaker · · Score: 1

      Actually the CG of the original flyer was all wrong for canard flight, infact it was behind the center of lift of the main wing so the leading control surface had to push down. In later models of the flyer they wrights added as much as 70Lbs to the leading control surface and extended it further from the main wing trying to get better control. In the end their first successful commercial model (Flyer Model B) used trailing control surfaces.

    3. Re:Wrong Way Round by dubner · · Score: 1

      If they turned it around a flew it the other way, then they wouldn't have all the instability problems you get with carard configuration aircraft... IMHO

      Huh? Canard != unstable design. My VariEze (canard pusher designed by Burt Rutan) is the model of stability. As angle of attack increases (airspeed decreases), the canard will stall before the main wing, resulting in the nose pitching down. With the nose down, the angle of attack is reduced (airspeed increases) and the stall is broken. If you apply full aft elevator, the aircraft will "porpoise" but always under control without any wing drop or tendency to depart controlled flight.

      OK, I'm not talking static or dynamic stability in the classic aero sense and I'll make no argument that the Wright Flyer was unstable. But it's not because it used a canard (and rear propulsion).

      --
      Joe

    4. Re:Wrong Way Round by nmg196 · · Score: 1

      Yes, but if you build a canard aircraft, you have to sort out stability in other ways. I mean, just look at the massive sweep on the wings of your aircraft - compared to zero sweep on a modern F/Glass glider (the only aircraft I can think of that has a similar wing length/profile - but non carnard).

      Nick...

  23. Wimps! by CMBurns · · Score: 1

    > was "exceedingly erratic," so the recreators
    > have made some slight concessions to safety.

    Are there any real men out there? I mean, what's that stuff with "slight concessions to safety"?

    If those guys had the guts, they'd fly the darned thing with nothing but their pyjamas on and for the real daring, there's always the option to use Win XP as a flight controller (which should just get them that "exceedingly erratic" behaviour)!

    C. M. Burns

    1. Re:Wimps! by a+random+streaker · · Score: 1

      Although humorous, there are some real observations historians have made pointing out that massive government intervention in daily life snuffs out the innovative spirit. A great state is produced by great men, not the other way around.

      When people grow up, generation after generation, in a world where they must get two dozen permission slips to perform this or that experiment, it does have an effect on the number of innovations. Remove the profit motive, and you're really in a world of hurt.

      --
      "All representatives are busy. The estimated hold time is one..hundred..sixty..four..minutes." Detroit Edison, 02/01/02
  24. Eole by Balinares · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Eole was destroyed, but its immediate successor is displayed in full view in the CNAM museum in Paris. A heck of an impressive sight, I can tell you. :)

    The blurb seems to say Eole was built between 1882 and 1889 and first flew in 1890, so if true that puts it slightly ahead of the Wright brothers' Kitty Hawk Flyer, but it's not like it matters much, for what we care. :)

    --

    -- B.
    This sig does in fact not have the property it claims not to have.
  25. Hard to keep all rational... by dinotrac · · Score: 2

    There must be something that's a little bit special about this. When I read that one of these efforts is taking place just a few miles down the road from me (in Glen Ellyn, IL), I got excited. So did my kids.

    It seems like such an audacious thing to do: and it's audacious times four.

    Makes what all those boys were doing around the turn of the 20th century seem that much more amazing. Hats off to all.

  26. Go and see the (almost) real thing.. by christophercook · · Score: 2, Informative

    Thought I'd do my bit for British Tourism and point out there is a pretty fantastic replica and some other groovy stuff at the science museum - all free to get in and they've also got some groovy robot stuff and a real Cray 1 (looks like a sixties sofa, you'll see what I mean if you go there!).

    1. Re:Go and see the (almost) real thing.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thought I'd do my bit for British Tourism and point out there is a pretty fantastic replica and some other groovy stuff at the science museum

      Or you could go to the Air and Space museum in Washington, DC and see the (actual) real thing. :)

  27. Wright Brothers? Give Me A Break by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 2

    The first powered flight was conducted by John Stringfellow in 1848, more than 50 years before the Wright Bros. And well before other claimants light Pearse and Adler.

    http://www.somerset.zynet.co.uk/attract/char_mus .h tml

    So there.

    1. Re:Wright Brothers? Give Me A Break by Have+Blue · · Score: 2
      The Wright brothers' flight is considered the milestone because it satisfied the four characteristics that had never all been matched at once before:
      • They used a heavier-than-air vehicle
      • The vehicle was self-powered (not a glider)
      • It carried a human passenger (yes, models and children's toys had been satisfying the other three criteria for decades, but using an airplane as a form of transportation was new)
      • They sustained the flight for 12 seconds
    2. Re:Wright Brothers? Give Me A Break by Banjonardo · · Score: 1
      Reeeeeally? Self-powered? This is why they needed a friggin catapult?

      How would the rest of the categories be any different from Alberto Santos-Dumont, the Brazilian working in France who built a self-powered monoplane that was ages past the Kitty Hawk? Milestone, indeed.

      --

      -----

      Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton

    3. Re:Wright Brothers? Give Me A Break by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The reason the Wright brothers are given the credit for the first real heavier than air aircraft is because their design principles turned out to be scalable - they were able to take the Flyer and turn it into an airplane capable of sustained, controllable flight. None of the other designs were capable of being turned into something that was really usable for more than a flight of a few seconds.

  28. Just how is this science? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I dont see any scientifical point in building somthing 90 years old.

    Safety? the pilots are oviously pussies. That aircraft will fly at max 60km/h at maybe 50m height.

    1. Re:Just how is this science? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      a) "scientifical" is not a word.
      b) this is about engineering and history

      lighten up

  29. And if it doesn't work... by nesneros · · Score: 1

    And if none of the replicas work, then suddenly we realize the original flight was a fake, and there's no such thing as aviation, and then all the planes that have been flying under the power of make-believe all along fall out of the sky. Or something like that.

    --
    Some men spend their entire lives trying to kill themselves for having been born. --Ross MacDonald
  30. But the French were leaders by 1912 by MtViewGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What's interesting is that the hotbed of aviation in the 1906-1912 period was NOT the USA. It was France, who made up for lost time very quickly by building a lot of very innovative designs, designs that served as the basis for today's airplanes in terms of aerodynamic and structural design.

    In that period, French pioneers like Alberto Santos-Dumont, Louis Blériot and the Duperdussin company were building monoplanes that used modern aerodynamic design. Indeed, the Duperdussin racer of 1912 had extremely sleek aerodynamics for its day thanks to the use of monocoque structural design.

    In short, while the Wright brothers built the first successful heavier-than-air airplane, it was the French pioneers that laid the groundwork for designing the modern airplane.

    1. Re:But the French were leaders by 1912 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Spelling. Actually it's a Depredussin Racer

    2. Re:But the French were leaders by 1912 by Banjonardo · · Score: 1
      Oh, lord, I'll smack you.

      Don't trust the French: Alberto Santos-Dumont is Brazilian. And we're damned proud of him. He is considered the father of aviation in Brazil, and the French claim him as theirs since he built and flew the BIS-14 in Paris. BTW, I've been to his house in Petropolis, Brazil. Awesome staicase. Hehe, instead of full steps it has left or right platforms, so you walk up like that.

      He was a hell of an inventor.

      --

      -----

      Score 3? For what? Being wrong, at length? - smirkleton

  31. Typical... by Knunov · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Everytime there is an article about an American invention, some prick replies saying that, "Actually, _______ did it first."

    According to the rest of the world, Americans have never invented or accomplished anything original.

    Even with things that are clearly American, like the moon landing, you have some foreign prick sponsoring a documentary saying it never happened.

    Jesus you people are a pack of sore losers. Deal with it.

    Knunov

    --
    Why do users with IDs under 100,000 or over 700,000 usually have the most worthwhile comments?
    1. Re:Typical... by rm-r · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Well, there may certainly be lots of people out there saying 'Typical American' to your post...

      Get yoor head out of your arse and find out the truth, hell I believe the Wrights probably were the first, and the moon landings certainly took place but there's nothing wrong with checking...

      No doubt I'll be mod'd down by a gang of USian moderators chanting USA!USA! for this, but I don't care- in fact I'd go as far to say 'Mod me down and I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine...'

      --

      J-aims
      --
      Yo, whatever happened to peas? Join T( H)GS
    2. Re:Typical... by joss · · Score: 1

      You have a strange perspective. You don't seem interested in looking at the evidence as to whether they are correct in saying someone else invented XXX first.

      Also, I think most of the crap about the moon landings never happened is mostly generated by loony Americans - AFAIK it's not a foreign conspiracy.

      The really strange thing is - who gives a flying fuck ? Does it make you feel proud that various things were invented by Americans ?

      "I'm proud to be an American, one of things I'm proud about is that it was an American who invented the plane."

      "I've got green eyes, I'm proud to have green eyes, the inventor of the microwave oven also had green eyes."

      I just don't see the point.

      --
      http://rareformnewmedia.com/
    3. Re:Typical... by pkplex · · Score: 0

      "According to the rest of the world, Americans have never invented or accomplished anything original.

      Even with things that are clearly American, like the moon landing, you have some foreign prick sponsoring a documentary saying it never happened. "

      Was it the Russians that got into space first though? :D And then America went on the big 10 year mission to get to the moon first ? :)

    4. Re:Typical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The really strange thing is - who gives a flying fuck ? Does it make you feel proud that various things were invented by Americans ? "I'm proud to be an American, one of things I'm proud about is that it was an American who invented the plane."

      Dude, I hope you wore asbestos boxer shorts today. While I don't necessarily think your post is flamebait, the moderators may have a different opinion.

      Your post does reflect a difference between the ISian and no-USian observers. Strangely enough, it appears that some USians are proud that some device/concept was invented by another USian. It vindicates their social and political system much in the same way that the Soviet bloc used to, and the Chinese currently view success in terms of medals at the Olympics as somehow proving the superiority of their philosophy.

  32. Flying old aeroplanes - Rhinebeck Aerodrome by dpilot · · Score: 3, Informative

    In the mid-Hudson valley there's a place called "The Rhinebeck Aerodrome", where they have a combination ground museum and flight show of old aeroplanes. I took the family there, a few years ago, and saw quite a show.

    I'm not enough of a student of history to remember most of the things they flew, but some of them were OLD. One of the newer things was a Sopwith Camel - as in Snoopy, the WWI flying Ace. Some of the planes took off at one end of the runway, flew the length at about 20 ft altitude, and landed at the other end. One really old plain had not conventional control surfaces - it worked by warping the wing surfaces.

    The Sopwith Camel was interesting in that (apparently like other planes of its time) it had no throttle. But it did have a new innovation. The engine had nine cylinders, but four could be shut off. To get the same effect as throttling, the pilot ran on nine, five, or no cylinders. It was interesting to hear, when flying.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
    1. Re:Flying old aeroplanes - Rhinebeck Aerodrome by kfg · · Score: 1

      I'll second this. Anyone with *any* interest in old planes should go to the Rhinebeck Aerodrome, given any opportunity to do so.

      I've been going there since I was a small child, and the late Cole Palen, the founder, gave me my first ride in an open cockpit biplane.

      For the sake of accuracy I would point our that all planes older than WW1 are replicas, but are built to extremely tight historical standards.

      Some of the WW1 planes are replicas as well, or replicas built around a few orginal parts, such as their Fokker DR1 triplane, of which there are no surviving, intact, examples.

      And if you're into flying models every Labor Day weekend they stage one of the largest gatherings of WW1 era R/C planes in the world.

      KFG

    2. Re:Flying old aeroplanes - Rhinebeck Aerodrome by Hoi+Polloi · · Score: 1

      I still remember going there with my dad and brother. It was wild seeing these planes going up that looked like they ran on glorified lawn mower engines! There is also some serious risk flying these as noted by a memorial plaque in the museum for a pilot who died flying one of them.

      My favorite was the Fokker Triplane. Not just because of it's unique shape but the fact that the nose was so high that the pilot had to side-slip the plane while landing to be able to see down past the nose. The last momement of the landing was basically done blind.

      --
      It is by the juice of the coffee bean that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains. The stains become a warning
  33. This isn't news by thelizman · · Score: 1

    Sorry, but it's been done before many times. There are at least two functional Wright Flyers on display in my native state of North Cackalacki, and there's one replica here in Mesa at the Champlain Fighter Museum at Falcon Field.

    1. Re:This isn't news by DaveSchool · · Score: 1

      Not to mention the one in the EAA museum in Oshkosh, WI. I believe that one was also done by college students.

  34. Better option for aviation history... by Foosinho · · Score: 1

    ... with an admitted US-centric bent.

    The Air Force Museum at Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton OH. Those of you who are pretty quick will note that Dayton is where the Wright Brothers made their airplane, and the museum is located at the old location of Wright Field, named after the brothers. (The base itself is a combination of Wright and Patterson Fields - thus the name "Wright-Patterson". Wow!)

    There is a full-scale replica of the Wright 1909 Military Flyer.

    Cheers,
    Brian

  35. Clone Mr. Wright by ferar · · Score: 1

    They could do a Mr. Wright's clone to fly the plane.

  36. I thought kiwis were flightless by A+nonymous+Coward · · Score: 2

    Like ostriches and emus. AM I wrong?

  37. Semi-Working Display at Museum by MrSkunk · · Score: 2, Informative

    If you go to the Wright Brothers Museum in Kitty Hawk, NC, there is a life size replica of the exact machine that the brothers flew. I was there just last month so a bunch of the details are still fresh in my head.

    There replica was fully functional (minus the ability to fly). Basically, it had all the wiring hooked up to control the pitch, roll and yaw of the plane. To adjust the pitch, you pulled a lever in from of the pilot. To adjust the roll and yaw, you push the pilot's hips in a direction. To reduce the amount of controls, they had the roll and yaw hooked up to a single control.

    While there I learned some pretty neat stuff that I had never realized. In order to get off the ground they needed a really light engine, but at the time engines weighed about 500lbs. So they hired a machinest to build them an aluminum engine (the first ever built). It weighed about 150 lbs and was a perfect counter-balance to whomever was flying the plane (engine on one side, pilot on the other).

    The best part of there design was the safety devices they added. All they had was a wood bar in front of the pilot that he could grab onto in case of a crash.

    1. Re:Semi-Working Display at Museum by a+random+streaker · · Score: 1

      > All they had was a wood bar in front of the
      > pilot that he could grab onto in case of a
      > crash.

      I'm sorry, Mr. Wright. You just don't meet current FAA, NTSB, OSHA, and a dozen and a half, squared, other standards. You are disallowed from attempting this. Oh, and you might hit a bird, which might be an endangered species, so you are also prevented, even if you fix all the other issues.

      --
      "All representatives are busy. The estimated hold time is one..hundred..sixty..four..minutes." Detroit Edison, 02/01/02
    2. Re:Semi-Working Display at Museum by sconeu · · Score: 2

      and was a perfect counter-balance to whomever was flying the plane (engine on one side, pilot on the other).

      Except that they used two engines, counter-rotating to negate gyro effects, and the pilot was between them.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    3. Re:Semi-Working Display at Museum by elh102 · · Score: 1
      Except that they used two engines, counter-rotating to negate gyro effects, and the pilot was between them.

      Wrong.

      The original Wright Flyer only had one engine that turned two propellors driven by chains from the engine (not too surprising, given the Wright Bros. primary occupation at the time). You are correct that the two propellors did counter-rotate, though.

  38. pride and green eyes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    "I'm proud to be an American, one of things I'm proud about is that it was an American who invented the plane."

    "I've got green eyes, I'm proud to have green eyes, the inventor of the microwave oven also had green eyes."

    I just don't see the point.

    Nationalistic pride is pride in a shared culture and set of ideals. Green-eyed people don't have a green-eyed culture or a set of green-eyed ideals, so your analogy is faulty.

    What most Americans are proud of is a culture where ingenuity and independence and nonconformity have been traditionally valued much more highly than in the rest of the world. It's this culture that Americans believe stimulates athletes and inventors to think and do things they otherwise wouldn't.

    Other cultures have different values. They raise certain kinds of people. America seems to be good at raising free-thinkers, and they are rightly proud of it.

    1. Re:pride and green eyes by joss · · Score: 2

      You make a good argument. The fact that XXX was invented by someone raised in culture YYY provides evidence that culture YYY has got something right. Something gets lost in the shorthand version though. If people remember
      it is the values of freedom and independence they are proud of, that's fine. The shorthand version allows people to lose the distinction between American interests and the values these supposedly represent.

      I still think there's something a bit weird in the way people are "Proud to be XXX" whether XXX is white, black, American, French, British or martian.

      It's a bit like saying some celebrity was awfully brave for dying of cancer. As far as I can tell he didn't have any choice.

      Pride is dangerous (it's number 1 of 7 on the deadly sins chart). Being proud of stuff which is purely an accident of birth is also pointless.

      --
      http://rareformnewmedia.com/
  39. The "Wright Aviation" effect by texchanchan · · Score: 1

    They got there first, then hung on to their primary concepts. So they were outpaced by innovative competitors. It happens again and again in new industries.

  40. Hang Glider by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Da Vinci's machine was only a hang glider, and if you've ever flown one, you'll also understand that the very first flight in one is wonderful, then becomes terrifying, once you realize that you *do* have to land it one way or the other.

  41. A bit of history by Mr.+Eradicator · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In 1960, some U of Washington students built a replica of the 1902 Wright glider. There's a picture hanging on the wall in the Aeronautics/Aerospace building of the group of guys that did it. They're all standing next to their glider on a grassy hill. It's pretty cool.

    To those of you asking why anyone would spend their time building a replica of an old airplane or glider, I say this: Designing aircraft is not all engineering and science. There's an art to it and a few people truly find joy in it.

    --

    That's Mr. Eradicator to you.

    trance-port
    1. Re:A bit of history by kfg · · Score: 2

      Some years ago an uncle of mine, ( who was taught to fly by Wilbur Wright), was called out of retirement by Grumman to head a team building a replica of the comapany's first plane, for the company museum.

      It seems that the *art* of building such a plane had been lost and they needed an 'old timer' to come back and show them how it was done.

      If nothing else building replicas of older craft, ( of all kinds), can give a greater understanding of history than you can derive from a book.

      At it's best such activities may actually teach you things about history that had been, or were in danger of, being completely lost. Some of these things may, shock of shocks, still be important to know now, and perfectly applicable to entirely modern problems.

      KFG

  42. Scrapheap Challenge by Ratface · · Score: 2

    A little OT I know, but I saw the episode of Scrapheap Challenge (British TV program where teams compete to build a specified project out of materials found on a scrapheap within 10 hours!) where they have to build a flying machine.

    One of the teams built something using a couple of old wings off a crashed plane, an aluminium ladder and some bits of expanded polystyrene (and sh*tloads of gaffa tape). The astounding thing is that they actually managed to get a few seconds flight from it using a tow launch system!

    My point (if I have one) is that it seems a little boring if everything gets over analysed before the first test flight. Of course it makes sense to make the machines moderately safe - correct the obvious glitches, build with higher tolerances etc etc. But don't forget that part of the Wright Brothers' pioneering spirit was a "suck it and see" mentality. They must have been both excited and scared on the first test flight. The pilot for the Scrapheap Challenge project *definitely* had the same spirit and it made his flights extremely exciting!

    --

    A little planning goes a long way...
  43. Er? Duplicate? This is irritating. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seems like We, the slashdot users get "slow down cowboy", how about having the same with timothy and other stupid moderators that approve things without checking the last 1-2 days of headlines. Ya'd think they read their own paper?

  44. Wrights, Dumont or Ader? by gilgsn · · Score: 1

    So, who was really the first? Looks like the Wrights came third... I put a poll here, cast your vote!

    --
    PGP public key at: http://keskydee.com/gil.asc
  45. Unstable. by rew · · Score: 3, Informative

    "The catch is: Each team wants its plane to fly more or less as the Wrights' did." The only problem with that is that as Orville Wright put it, their plane was "exceedingly erratic," so the recreators have made some slight concessions to safety.


    What Orville Wright calls erratic, is what we nowadays call "inherently unstable". You want to fly something that is inherently stable.

    There are a couple of ways to make a plane stable. Put a tail on it at the back (or move it back further if you already have one), or you can bend the wings backwards.

    Those are changes that people "see" from a distance, and people will say: "But that's not the plane that the Wrights flew in 1908! It's different."

    Oh, and you could change the profile of the wings, but then you have to have a plane that is almost stable to begin with, because this effect is so small. If carefully designed, you can build a "wing-only" plane (which was thought impossible because most wings are inherently unstable), like the helios (which as a matter of fact has its center of gravity well below the wing, one more trick to make a plane stable!).

    There are advantages to building an unstable aircraft. For the Wrights that was: "Oops never thought of that". Currently the excuse is that you can use computers to make the thing stable, and then you don't have to have the inefficient things like a "tail" on the plane...

    Roger.

  46. First U.S. Ballon Flight: 1793 in Deptford, NJ by Cerlyn · · Score: 2

    Well, if you want to get into those sort of technicalities, the first flight in the United States of a balloon-powered aircraft was done by French balloonist Jean Pierre Blanchard on January 9, 1793. The location was Woodbury, NJ, which is now considered Deptford, NJ.

    Its a bit hard not to know this fact since the town painted it on its water tower :)

    Read about it here.

    1. Re:First U.S. Ballon Flight: 1793 in Deptford, NJ by Cerlyn · · Score: 2

      Bah, forgot something: Flights have origins and destinations, don't they?

      The flight of Jean Pierre Blanchard started at 6th Street & Walnut Street in Philadelphia, PA. Fifteen miles & 56 minutes later, he landed in was is now Deptford, NJ between the "R.C.A. Parts 8 Accessories Plant" and Big Timber Creek. Jean also carried a letter signed by President Washington in order to alleviate the fears of people seeing him land.

      Source is here. Searching google for "Deptford, NJ First flight" also works well.

  47. Wright brothers didnt invented the airplane... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Brazilian Santos Dumont did. his 14-bis flew around Eifell tower when Wright brother were just planning to make some fly. This is one the biggest mistakes of American history, that only americans do not know the truth ( they dont want to know the truth, due their need of patriotism)

  48. What about the group from Maine? by AllMightyPaul · · Score: 1

    This article failed to mention a pilot from Maine who has already successfully built a replica of multiple Wright Brother's planes, namely the 1910 EX, and have actually flown them across the country in preperation for the anniversary in 1903. My great-uncle, Dana Smith, is involved with this and has already demonstrated the viability of building a replica by methods that don't involve using the original design plans. The original plans purposely did not work because the brothers did not want people to imitate their creation. That, and changes were constantly being made and never kept up with.

    There is an article summary here titled: THE WRIGHT STUFF (second one down). Unfortunately, you have to pay to read the whole article. http://nl9.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_ac tion=list&p_topdoc=11

  49. Big Deal. Whitehead was first anyway. by jpellino · · Score: 2

    As a Connecticut native, I can't let this one lie.

    Gustave Whitehead (Weiskopf) likely preceeded the Wrights, his planes have been rebuilt, and successfully flown as proof of concept.

    http://www.deepsky.com/~firstflight/Pages/resear ch .html

    Whitehead worked in Fairfield / Bridgeport Connecticut, but he had no pictures or movies like the Wrights had.

    There is plenty of evidence - in the form of printed reports and eyewitness accounts - that Whitehead achieved powered flight before the Wrights. There is however, a good reason why this claim isn't pursued on any official level - in the agreement that was drawn up to finally bring the battered Wright Flyer to the Smithsonian in 1948 you'll find this clause:

    "Neither the Smithsonian Institution or its successors, nor any museum or other agency, bureau or facilities administered for the United States of America by the Smithsonian Institution or its successors shall publish or permit to be displayed a statement or label in connection with or in respect of any aircraft model or design of earlier date than the Wright Airplane of 1903, claiming in effect that such aircraft was capable of carrying a man under its own power in controlled flight."

    In other words, say we weren't first, and we take our bat and ball and go home.

    If you were SI, you wouldn't touch Whitehead with a ten foot spar - why gamble on a re-creation when you have an original?

    OK - a battered original - darn thing BLEW OVER like a kite and wrecked while they were all busy whooping it up after the first three flights, went thru a mud flood, and generally sat around gathering dust for thirty plus years...

    Appropos today, a few more things everyone 'knows' and aren't really true - the cherry tree, silver dollar and wooden teeth yarns...

    http://www.mountvernon.org/books/myths.asp

    Enjoy

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  50. Re:Ha! They'll be in for a surprise! by Surak · · Score: 2

    Ummmm....the Soviets had planes in 1962 (and *well* before that), why would it say flying is a myth?

  51. The catch by Lord+Sauron · · Score: 2

    The only catch is that these "slight concessions" include an array of the latest generation of gryroscopes, a bleeding edge NASA lase-guidance system, wich detects a half inch deviation of the course, and, of course, military grade GPS, airbags, brakes with ABS, fly-by-wire technology, redundant hydraulic system, and so on...

  52. I blame BattleBots and the USPTO and First Post! by jpellino · · Score: 2

    I blame BattleBots and the USPTO and First Post!

    Every design, new or old, has to be a stealth thing that emerges fully formed from the shop;

    Everything has to be protected, numbered, and stamped "mine", new or not;

    Anyone check to see if the teams are made up of denied FP'ers?

    ;-)

    --
    "Win treats sysadmins better than users. Mac treats users better than sysadmins. Linux treats everyone like sysadmins."
  53. Wright brothers engineered for stall safety by xiphosuran · · Score: 1

    The design of the Wright brothers' first plane was actually a sophisticated answer to the problem: how could they learn how to fly without killing themselves in the process. The normal "inherently stable" modern aircraft has a major problem for someone who is going to learn, on his own, how to control it, all the while flying at very low altitudes. If the nose momentarily points too high, airflow separates from the wing, the plane "stalls," then the nose drops suddenly and the plane dives. At low altitudes, this can be deadly.

    The Wright brothers knew about this kind of accident. The first man to successfully build hang gliders, Otto Lilienthal, had died that way.

    The Wright brothers also had a wind tunnel and could make very good measurements of the stall properties of various airfoils. By using a canard airfoil that stalled before the main wing, they designed an aircraft whose nose would remain high during a stall. (There was a Scientific American article years ago that described all this)

    The methodical sons of a presbyterian minister, they were no daredevils. They found a very clever way to get some flying experience while limiting the dangers they were exposed to.

    1. Re:Wright brothers engineered for stall safety by netringer · · Score: 1
      By using a canard airfoil that stalled before the main wing, they designed an aircraft whose nose would remain high during a stall. (There was a Scientific American article years ago that described all this)
      The canard design does NOT allow the "nose" to "remain high," it prevents the nose from GETTING too high.

      The canard provides a good portion (40% on modern designs) of the airplane's lift and it is, indeed set at a higher angle of attack than the main wing. If the nose is raised both wings go to higher of angles of attack. The more-angled canard stalls first, which removes the lift that is holding up the nose, so the aircraft automatically lowers the nose and prevents the main wing from ever getting to a critical angle and stalling. Thanks to that built-in mechanism carnard designs are called "stall-proof."

      Burt Rutan, the designer of the Voyager airplane that flew non-stop around the world, has developed modern composite aircraft with canard designs, which he credits to the Wright Brothers, his entire professional life.
      --
      Ever dream you could fly? Get up from the Flight Sim. I Fly
  54. Dangerous, but what the heck? by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As an aside, bear in mind that Scrapheap Challenge (the original UK name and format for Junkyard Wars) has already seen teams build and fly:

    Yes, that's right. If you haven't seen it, some poor mad fool got in a canard nosed "glider" that had been bodged up in day, and reached about 20mph and 15 feet before releasing the tow line. The "glider" went in a direction that could charitably be described as "not quite a plummet". He walked away. Then did it again, only faster. And again, reaching about 30mph. This is pretty much comparable with the speeds and energies in the Wright brother's creation.

    The remote plane was an interesting one. It actually flew, in a very nearly controlled fashion. OK, it was built with modern scrap, but it was scrap, and it was built in a day.

    I'm kind of wondering why the people building the replica airplanes feel the need to have human pilots in them. Remote control or even an expert system might do nicely if safety is a concern.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  55. Sorry dude, but... by PHAEDRU5 · · Score: 3

    From http://www.maria-brazil.org/sdumont.htm:

    ...
    Santos-Dumont continued to work on dirigibles, but finally achieved his dream of flying in a heavier-than-air craft in October of 1906, when his 14 Bis flew a distance of 60 meters at a height of 2 to 3 meters. As far as the world knew, it was the first airplane flight ever and Santos-Dumont became a hero to the world press. The stories about the Wright brothers flights at Kitty Hawk and later near Dayton, Ohio, were not believed even in the US at the time.

    Eventually, after much controversy, the Americans and the world - even though it remains a sore spot for Brazilians, to whom Santos-Dumont is known as the Father of Aviation - accepted that they had indeed flown a heavier-than-air craft before Santos-Dumont. Where he beat them, though, was in his idea of adding the first ailerons to the extremities of the wings. Think of it: aileron is the French diminutive for aile, or wing. And, of course, he never used any contraption or catapult or wooden tracks to push the aircraft or to aid in taking off. So, maybe the Brazilians are right...

    --
    668: Neighbour of the Beast
  56. risks for the thrill of being alive. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    nice sentiment. Perhaps say rather "we still understood that risks attend us everywhere, and chose not to forgo life in vain hope of avoiding some of them."

    Its all Ralph Nader's fault.

  57. Re: Your sig... by GTRacer · · Score: 2
    5'16" is easy math, so why do so many miss it?

    OK, I'll bite...Six feet, four inches? Or are these Troy inches? ;)

    GTRacer
    - must...sleep...now...

    --
    Defending IP by destroying access to it? That makes sense, RIAA/MPAA. Go to the corner until you can play nice!
  58. Re:Big Deal. Whitehead was first anyway. by kfg · · Score: 2

    To be fair, the cherry tree, silver dollar, and wooden teeth are indeed merely yarns.

    The Wright Flyer is not.

    The agreement attached to the Wright Flyer has nothing to do with Whitehead, although it may have some effect any claims to be made in his behalf. For Decades the Smithsonian gave the honor of being first to fly to its own director, Langely. Langley's "plane" had no control surfaces, was launched off of a high platform, and "flew" from the top of the tower into the Potomac, killing its pilot.

    It was acrimony over this that made Wilbur refuse to give the Wright Flyer to the museum until they recognized the Wrights flew before Langely.

    Indeed, Langley's plane didn't so much as fly as *plummet.*

    KFG

  59. The reason for a materials change. by n9hmg · · Score: 3, Informative

    I helped set up the replica at the Wilbur Wright birthplace museum near Millville, Indiana USA.
    We bought it from a guy in Illinois, name Buford Gross, who had built it to fly, though he chickened out and sold it to a museum, rather than risk damaging it. He built it with a synthetic fiber (dacron, i think) covering instead of cotton, because the FAA wouldn't let him fly it otherwise.
    I just checked with a member of the museum board (my dad), and he informs me that Buford had added the 1905 flyer control enhancement (steerable rudder) as well. I'd just assumed that was accurate. No wonder a 1903 flyer is almost uncontrollable!

  60. Correction on the religion by n9hmg · · Score: 1

    "The methodical sons of a presbyterian minister"
    Wrong. Milton was a minister of the "Church of the United Brethren in Christ", or what is now usually just called the "Church of the Brethren". They kind of remind me of Mennonites.
    The branch coming down to me (His father (Dan) was my great-great-great-great grandpa) were mostly Quakers.

  61. This has been done already by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've seen a flying true-to-the-original Wright flyer with my own eyes.

    http://www.ohtm.org/wrightfl.html

    It's up in Maine at the Owl's Head Transportation Museum.

  62. Forward wing right design by gariculus · · Score: 1
    The forward elevator was not a mistake, but a careful design choice that probably saved Wilbur's life a couple of times. It has a remarkable property that is especially relevant for slow-speed flight: flat stalls.

    You can see this for yourself if you buy a dimestore balsa glider. Take the weight off of the front and put it on the back. Then take the vertical tail off of the back and put it where the pilot goes (or tape it to the front). Now fly it backwards.

    What you'll find, after some twiddling with the wing position, is a couple of effects. First, notice how it stalls. When a "normal" elevator-in-back plane stalls, it next dives, often straight into the ground. But in the elevator-in-front design, the smaller front wing stalls before the main wing; in losing its lift, it falls first and the main wing may not stall at all. The result, as you can see with your glider, is that when such an aircraft stalls, it does not dive, but instead "floats" downward. That's a safety feature not lost on the Wrights.

    Next, notice that you can make your reverse glider just a stable as the original tail dragger design. You'll find that you have to set the wing a little farther back of the CG. (Ie, make the elevator farther forward.) The elevator-in-front design is not inherently unstable!

    The Wright's 1903 Flyer wasn't passively stable, but they improved their design. Look at their 1905 and subsequent Flyers and you'll see that the forward elevator was much farther forward. Now you now why.

    Finally, the Wright's weren't "wrong" in making their Flyer unstable. What they did was make the pilot part of the stability loop. That is, the pilot had to actively apply control to make the aircraft stable. In the following years, it was not at all clear that passive stability was better; indeed unstable aircraft can react and turn much faster. The debate continued for several years before the advantages of passive stability were understood. But passively unstable designs have some advantages; some modern fighter aircraft are unstable, but use computers to actively stabilize the machine.

    1. Re:Forward wing right design by ccmay · · Score: 1
      The debate continued for several years before the advantages of passive stability were understood.

      Yes, passive stability does have a few small advantages, like being able to fly the aircraft without killing yourself...

      -ccm

      --
      Too much Law; not enough Order.
  63. FOR THE FUTURE by masterkool · · Score: 0

    Perhaps, with the restoration of the plane, we can someday fly as easily as we can hitch a horse and buggy.

    --
    I once shot a man who posted too many, "Imagine a beowulf cluster of these"
  64. Re:Ha! They'll be in for a surprise! by majestyk2000 · · Score: 1

    Eh, I had a Richard's Topical Encyclopedia printed in 1966 that said that supersonic flight was impossible. Considering the SR-71 was flying then, I guess they didn't do their homework much.

    Not to mention the X-1, which exceeded the speed of sound in the 40's, if I recollect.

  65. Yet more comedy modded down by humorless mods. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Nice to know /. mods still have no sense of humor.

  66. Re:Ha! They'll be in for a surprise! by joekool · · Score: 1

    1947 was the year Chuck Yeager broke the speed of sound(october, I believe), but it was not made public for about a year, I believe. It's interesting to note that it is believed that another pilot broke the sound barrier about a week previously, on accident, and that may pilots are believed to have done so, while in steep dives, during the war(WWII). The name of the other pilot was George S. Welch.
    Much facinating info about various Medal of Honor winners, including Yeager, found here. General Yeager is still one of my persoanl favorite people, though, for his many other activities, and his attitude towarads life, etc.

    --

    Slackware: old school feel, new school gear.
  67. Hip cradle control by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, the previous poster is correct.

    The Wrights used a hip cradle between 1903 and 1905 so they could shift their hips to the left or right to accuate warping of the wings. Wing warping works in the same manner as ailerons do today.

    But, they only shifted their hips to warp the wings, not to use their body weight to shift the lateral balance of the airplane like Lilienthal, Chanute, Pilcher and others did before them.

  68. Dutch Roll or PIO? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'd have to wonder if the Flyer was more inclined to Pilot Induced Oscillation (PIO) due to the fact that the elevator was WAY too close to the main planes?

    I'm planning to build and fly a 1/4 scale RC replica of the 1905 Flyer III just for that reason - the Wrights moved the forward elevator and rudder out to fix that problem.

  69. Who flew first? - some links discussing this by mamahuhu · · Score: 1

    1902 was the year that Pearse began his flight experiments: - His first aircraft was built over a number of years and flight-tested from 1902

    On this page referrence to two letters is made. And there is a large amount of ambiguity about what he acheived in 1902. The letters reveal that he said that the Wright Brothers will get the credit for flying first..... but whether they did or not is another matter. It's a all in the definition.

    Pearse's definition of 'flight' was far more rigorous than the Wright brothers'.

    By that same definition the Wright brothers never 'flew' in 1903. They never got out of ground effect, and never for more than few seconds. People have long argued that Pearse's definition of flight is more complete than the Wrights' and so when he said that he never flew in 1902 - he meant it.... but by the same definition the Wrights didn't either.

    So if flying in ground effect counts as first flight - Pearse's hops and short flights perhaps count too - from 1902.

    When people look at the Wright flyer - it looks archaic..... but at the same time Pearse's aircraft was more sophistocated... his first aircraft was a remarkable invention embodying several far-sighted concepts: a monoplane configuration, wing flaps and rear elevator, tricycle undercarriage with steerable nosewheel, and a propeller with variable-pitch blades driven by a unique double-acting horizontally opposed petrol engine.

    At the same time that the Wright Brother's were 'flying' in an oversized box kite Pearse was flying a machine that bears a remarkable similarity to modern day ultra-lights.

    Whether or not the Wrights or Pearse flew first there is another who was flying around the same time Gustave Whitehead

    "In the early morning hours of 14 August 1901, near Bridgeport, Connecticut, a small graceful monoplane took to the air with its inventor and builder, Gustave Whitehead at the controls,carrying him for half a mile before landing undamaged."

    So probably the only thing you can claim about the Wright brothers is that they were masters of publicity well before their time let's celebrate that!