Slashdot Mirror
Intenet2 Backbone Upgrades
An anonymous reader "Looks like Abilene, the backbone for Internet2 will join Canada's CA*Net3 and Europe's GEANT as one of the fastest research networks on the planet. According to this press release, Internet2 will be deploying 11 of Juniper network's freshly announced T640 platform. These puppies can cram 32 OC-192 (or 128 OC-48) interfaces into a single chassis. All in half a rack, too!" I'm
sure those students are very happy with their ping times. Meanwhile in the
real world... ;)
Without napster, do we really need all that bandwidth anymore? ;-)
And I thought I was using Internet3 (www) already ? Is internet2 (ww) and internet1 (w) .. gosh !!! Damn
Slashdot needs a speel cheeker...
Kramer
"What's this script do? unzip ; touch ; finger ; mount ; gasp ; yes ; umount ; sleep Hint for the answer: not everyth
"...and this is why I think it is very important to study the effects, upon international policy-making by semi-marginalized non-governmental stakeholders, of three-day Quake matches. I thank the comittee for their time."
Carousel is a lie!
"Designed for deterministic performance with 640-Gbps font-panel throughput and 1,280-Gbps rear-panel throughput"
That's a lot of bandwidth killed if someone trips on the power cord.
"A terrorist is someone who has a bomb but doesn't have an air force." -William Blum
We are happy with our ping times!
The internet? that thing still around?
-Homer
My University is on it, and when I download from ftp.crc.ca (they mirror many things) I max out at 10Mbps.. Now if I could only get Acadia to upgrade to 100Mbps on the lan. *sigh*
Here comes the obligatory "Here comes the obligatory 'Imagine the ping times' post" post. Recursive/nested obligatory posting. Hmm.
loply.com
We students do enjoy our obsane (insane+obscene) bandwidth and wacky pings. I love getting 9ms pings to other schools and then 20ms pings everywhere else. Makes it that much easier to spank on those foolish CMU counter-strikers.
and someone should actually read what the topic is about...
"What do you mean you have no ice? Do you expect me to drink this coffee hot?" - Random Customer, Clerks
There are hundereds of articles about Intenet2 here.
Damn i wish i could get a line hooked up somewhere along the line, i think its a great way to pick up chicks u know: "Wanna go to my place, i have such low ping times ^_^"
;)[/serious mode]
[serious mode]I think this is a great thing for university's across the globe, so that information can exchange information fast again without being slowed down by everyone playing quake at the school computers...oh ok quake will always slow it down a little but on a larger scale the speed quakes takes is not that big now anymore
Damn, with that much pipe, do they even know what a ping time is?
"The time it takes for a packet to go there and back? Why even bother to measure such a small amount of time?"
It hurts when I pee.
You know, Microsoft is on Internet2. They have a site, research.microsoft.com that's stuck on it (which routes to them internally). I always wondered why I could hit 1meg a second to windowsupdate.microsoft.com from the campus I used to work at... Then I found out.
Cool! Amazing Toys.
ok, I won't say " Imagine a Beowulf cluster of these!" No , seriously, the thing runs Junos , which is a highly modified FreeBSD-based *nix-like OS. I work for Ericsson and we bought them in 99 and now (due to cust-cutting) we're gonna sell our shares in Juniper. Wise choice, isn't it?
"I used to have that really cool,funny sig
Has sweet bandwidth allright, but you cant use it for anything out side the research network. So all those napster type progies wont get a bit of it, and its also not that usefull for general surfing. however, my friend sucked down a redhat iso in 12 minutes From The NRC's ftp to his machine in @ Carleton U.
It is great to hear the Internet2 is still developing. Hopefully, grid computing and VR will be two killer apps for Internet2. With that speed, we can probably run our games on a remote server, only receiving a bit-by-bit dump that we stream directly to our monitor, almost completely eliminating the need for a video card.
Seriously, though. Extreme bandtwidth like this can benefit the Unix crowd, by making thin clients a more feasible technology. PS2 with broadband internet and X11 should be able to run remotely run heavy apps. Anybody tried yet?
Stop the brainwash
Maybe more like capacity. I'm a student at Indiana University (Bloomington campus) and we have had some of the most horrendous ping times I've ever seen. As net capacity here has gone up, ping times have gone down. I once enjoyed Quake 3 ping times of around 30ms for most sites I played at. Now, I'm really lucky if I could get under 100ms. Four years ago, IU had a couple of T1's for the entire network (residence halls and the academic part of campus.) Now, we have dual T3's: one for academia and one for the residence halls. I've tracked the latency problems by periodically pinging Yahoo from the command line (which seemed as good a guage as any, since it was never previously more than about 60ms.) Well, depending on the time of day and the orbit of the planets, etc. I might get a ping time for Yahoo anywhere between 45ms and 550ms. Yes, 550ms. It's like someone added a component to the network that adds lag. The best part about the increase in lag is that it slowly fluctuates throughout the day and universally adds to any non-campus (and non-internet2) site or server. So, last year I gave up online gaming all together because I just couldn't get ping times that were acceptable anymore. And to top it off, the graphs of internet use did not correspond to the times when the lag was greatest. It made no sense, and the IT people here didn't know what to tell me when I asked them about this. Oh well. It's probably a good thing I gave up gaming.
Hopefully this goes a step in the direction of good ping times again.
Oh well.
-K
Yes, we are very happy with how fast our Quake 3 Arena games are...
Looks like Abilene, the backbone for Internet2 will join Canada's CA*Net3 and Europe's GEANT as one of the fastest research networks on the planet
According to this page at Geante,
An important element of GÉANT is the development of connectivity with equivalent Research Networks in other world regions. Connectivity is being consolidated with the existing equivalents of GÉANT in North America (Abilene, CA*net) and in Asia-Pacific (SINET, KOREN, SingAREN) and developed further between Europe and the Asia-Pacific, North American, South American and Mediterranean regions
a bunch of extra regions get connected as well.
As far as I know, you need to get an explicit drop for I2, and you need to justify it somehow (usually not too hard). However, nobody is going to except downloading p0rn/music as a valid reason...
Many universities (not just those on internet 2) also have 100baseT lines set up for local, university traffic. But again, you need to request it explicitly.
This means that napster will still run at 10. I think that's still plenty fast for the unwashed masses.
I am disapointed that the press release did not contained the usual "can transfert the total information of the library of congress in X sec" :)
You would expect the slashdot *editors* would have discovered the distinction between latency and troughput by now. 128 (or whatever) OC-12 running in parallell does not give you a lower ping-time than a single one. (unless your high ping is caused by congestion)
What it does is allow you to transfer more data. Consider this analogy: Sending a hundred postcards at once doesn't make your message get there faster, but it *does* give you space for a longer message.
Ofcourse Internet2 is also built to have low latencies, however the humongous bandwith doesn't contribute directly to this, except as in making congestion less likely.
DWDM would allow a single ring to cram anywhere from 32 x to 256 x the OC-192 capacity, on a single fibre (and on expensive equipment, that goes without saying :)
All major telcos/routers companies have nice DWDM offerings already today, and much more in their labs. Links: Nortel, Lucent, Cisco ...
we do enjoy our ping times. :) I'm enrolled at IUPUI, which has the I2/Abilene NOC. Quite an interesting place. In fact, the only thing that slows down our connections is when we ahve to get on the "regular" internet. All kidding aside, I don't think students have access to I2 simply through their connections, though I do know that connections to other I2 nodes goes through the I2 network, which greatly increases speeds for those connections. Usually, only people doing research need to connect to other universities... but sometimes you run across some interesting servers passing traffic along I2 ;)
Unlike Internet1 which was developed by the military and was not designed to make monay from subscribers, Internet2 is. After 5 years and still not adopted. Is it dead yet?
I disagree with what you say, but will defend to the death your right to
tell such LIES!
of these in my house. Can you imagine running an OC-192 to each room of the house? :) Imagine what this could do to my beowulf cluster of 486s...
The rest of the world also counts, for example, the asia-pacific continent with SINET, KOREN, and SingAREN.
Just my 5 EuroCents, Johan.
Amen, brother! Best post in a long time.
c'mon, mind your R's guys.
Your
During the good old days of networking when I was at Virginia Tech, they had a pretty interesting setup. As far as I understood, VT used to sit on a NAP on the I2. The closer you were to the NAP, the fatter your pipe. There were some plans to open the NAP up for local residental access since most of the Blacksburg residents were students and faculty. I don't know if that was ever accomplished or not.
:-)
:-/
Anyways, before digressing, VT's outgoing pipe had two logical interface. Any packets bound to universites or other educational institutions that had access to the I2 via their local NAP points, would go through the then established oc-3. (The pipe might be fatter now). Any other packets that were bound for networks outside of these destinations were forwarded through the dual t-3 that was used for 'all other traffic'.
I onced did a traceroute to www.ucla.edu from a computer lab on campus during the middle of the day during the middle of the week and got amazing results. I found that there was only 8 hops between that desktop and the webserver that was in CA somewhere and all ping responses were less than 10ms. Talk about insane.
I believe other schools share the same network setup as VT and i wouldn't be surprised many of those once old pipes have now been upgraded to fatter ones. Then again, MCI does have a lot of dark fiber laid around the AMTRAK rails that has yet lit up.
However, despite with all this nice connection, I was recently told by several Virginia Tech on-campus residents that their connection has been capped up. I did some digging around and I believe that CNS is now capping the wall connections with the use of the catalyst 6500 catalysts from Cisco which I belive can limit network usage from reading all their marketing material... lol
Bottom line: Even if your organization or institutions had fat pipes to external networks, if your network capacity is limited from the point where you plug in your RJ45... don't expect to see blazing speeds).
BTW, as far as I know, they got the ports to the residents dorms set up to 10mpbs half duplex... ewwwww......
Does any real research get sent over i2? I know (our information at least) is sorted strictly by destination, which means my CS and Q3 pings never top 10-15 on the servers I frequent most.
Will it still be possible to Slashdot I2 servers?
yup - you got it..
Alluh is a raving arse bandit who licks pigs balls and rolls around in pits of bacon fat - just thought you'd want to know.
The router flows for some of the routers on Internet2 still show a lot of file sharing apps even on Internet2. Heres a break down for the LOSA router (I believe that's Los Angeles).
port flows octets packets duration
FastTrack 22.010 26.377 17.495 19.339
Gnutella 8.358 5.069 7.138 11.082
http 4.201 4.566 2.565 1.151
ftp-data 0.738 3.284 1.866 0.915
eDonkey-2000 0.896 1.132 0.769 1.111
ssh 0.428 1.063 0.753 0.337
Neomodus-Direct 0.591 0.706 0.823 1.057
51872 0.017 0.513 0.302 0.086
ftp 0.636 0.444 0.337 0.296
aol 0.139 0.428 0.302 0.291
bbh
I've been living on-campus at a canadian university for 2 years now and only recently discovered how amazing the research network is. (Our regular commercial line is really slow, slow enough to prompt the luckier, and geekyer, residents with TV to get cable internet in addition to the residence internet.)
If you check out the traffic graphs, you can see that well over half the traffic is kazaa. (click on application-bits)
http://205.189.33.73/www/flowscan/nrc.html
Taxpayers' dollars hard at work indeed! The cool thing is that at most times these nodes aren't anywhere near their maximum data transfers at any time that I check them. That's probably just because nobody really knows about it and only use it if they happen to connect to someone else on the network and their university has the routing setup correctly... Also, not all the universities in Canada I've connected to make full use of the network, some limit bandwidth to their users even on this "free" (gov't subsidized) network. From what I hear though, the free part will soon change and the universities/gov't offices will have to pay for it in the upcoming years, but right now it's basically free bandwidth for those on the network.
What is this?!
A univeristy network that is ment for studying and not pr0n trading ? Outrageous!
I wonder if Joe Taxpayer likes the idea that his pennies on the dollar toward education go for through bandwidth...
Ohh, I'd be more than happy if i knew my tax money went to pr0n/gaming bandwith!
All generalizations are false
It'll suck till it runs on windows, and suck even more till this and you fucking idjuts get off your' ass and make this stuff work past the 50 people in boga boga, and BFE. Great way to fucking go slapnut.org.
when i worked at *insert bloated telecom name here* they started bringing in juniper "routers" to use in our datacenters. all these things are is a unix box, and not a very stable one at that. we had a number of outages in the following months due to these routers going down. of course it could have been the fault of the engineers in the dc but.........
i can see it now......internet 2 is down, call juniper support!! oh wait they went out of business...crap!
My bosses are working on the field of NM of such funny things. What about firewalling with 2Gbps ?
more info on the Italian side of the GEANT @
http://pilota.garr.it/
More info on NM at 2 Gbps @ http://www.ntop.org
I think we need another moderation category:
'poster is a fscking moron'
This will cost the moderator all his/her remaining points, but will make the moderated poster's next 10 posts start at 0 instead of 1
Of course, by the time I finish typing this, the parent will be -1, and I'll be marked OT...
some limit bandwidth to their users even on this "free" (gov't subsidized) network
Penn State, also part of Internet2, recently imposed similar bandwidth caps (upload speeds of 56K) from dormatory internet connections in response to this problem.
I couldn't agree more on the issue of taxpayer financed networks being "wasted" on private P2P applications instead of being used for the research for which they were originally intended. If so much bandwidth can be given away to subsidize Kazaa, et al., then perhaps I2 could be opened up to private ISPs which could take over some of the costs that various governments are already paying.
Unfortunately, the bandwith caps are the only way the universities will get their research monies worth out of I2.
In case of fire, do not use elevator. Use water!
Does this mean the true need for bandwidth pr0n will get to my computer faster??!!!!!!!
For those who are curious, here is a map of the PNW gigapop connections that shows where research.microsoft.com and www.microsoft.com is on the internet. Microsoft is on the left, and I2 is on the right.
And for the poster who said Microsoft was not on I2, here is a press release stating that Microsoft was joining I2 in 1999.
Get off my internet spelling fascist
Perhaps a technical solution like the Internet2's QBone Scavenger Service can relieve the problem without limits imposed by administrators (although these administrators certainly have a right to impose limits). QBSS is like running nice(1) on Unix: you declare that you're not in a big hurry to get your data and that your traffic can be fit in around more important traffic. Of course, it requires end-user cooperation, but most users of file-sharing apps are capable of respecting the network and making a compromise.
And anyone who's tried to set up an IP6 network knows what a complete bastard it is. Whoever
designed it couldn't have come up with a more complex system if they tried. So much for
simplifying ip4!
Check out these pretty pictures of the bandwidth usage at CU Boulder.
Salient features: Kazaa + Gnutella = 15% of our traffic (in and out), people run more FTP servers than they download from (4.2% up, 2.7% down), and pr0n-searching newsgroup readers account for 4.4% of downstream bandwidth usage.
Oh, don't forget to check out the graph labeled "Campus I/O By Network" (towards the bottom, mostly green). ResNet is the on-campus dorm network, JILA is a huge government research thing on campus, and I have no idea what Johnson is)
Consider the state of the current Internet -- banner ads, pop-ups, pop-unders, email virii, web browser virii, web server virii, Flash web design, and 'content delivery' systems which are more annoying than their content is valuable.
If the Common Man gets access to the Internet2, then the Common Business will follow, trying to suck his pockets clean. Many of the Common Problems above will follow as side-effects.
Consider also that many areas still aren't wired with sufficient bandwidth to handle the garden-hose-like Internet1, much less the firehose-like Internet2. (Thank you, telephone hegemony.) Dialups will become all but worthless, as the only way to get decent speed for all those new Internet2 services is to move into increasingly crowded population centers. Or people will learn to do without, diminishing the value of the Internet2 that way.
Or to paraphrase Basil Fawlty, "This would be a great Internet if it weren't for all the users."
Pessimism? I prefer to think of it as a "crushing lack of faith in the general public and human nature."
You cannot truly appreciate Dilbert until you read it in the original Klingon.
When I was in college (1990-94), administrators complained about the same things. Bandwidth was saturated! These crazy college kids and their MUDs, warez (2-3 MB at the time), and pr0n (~30-50 KB/image). The network admins swore that the Internet would collapse any day under the strain. And this is before WWW became widespread -- or the general public could use the Net.
The networked world adapted. More bandwidth became available, and the equipment became cheaper. There's a report (story in the K5 queue) stating that about 97% of all fiber lines in America are unused. "Kids" are always going to push the limits of what's available. They have the time, energy, and lack of knowledge about "consequences" to do it.
Want to cut your bandwidth costs, quick and easy? Disable all P2P services. FTP can use a lot of bandwidth; better get rid of it! And this new-fangled World Wide Web is a bandwidth hog too!
Here's a very modest idea: cut all Internet/I2 services for students and make a faculty-only net with T3 Internet access, or just ban all computers on campus. Education existed for thousands of years without Internet, computers, or electricity. Turning back the clock 25 years shouldn't effect your campus too much. Or is it too much to ask that someone working at an educational institution be concerned with the future?
"If so much bandwidth can be given away to subsidize Kazaa, et al., then perhaps I2 could be opened up to private ISPs which could take over some of the costs that various governments are already paying."
Ugh, then we'd just have to go build Internet3 to escape the garbage again.
Internet2 is way cool in my book. I downloaded RedHat ISO's from another university over this link a while back at over 2 MB/sec, not Mbit, Mbyte!
From Juniper's T-640 specs...
Powerful, flexible JUNOScript API for integration to OSS.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
All they need to do is switch to OS X and use OmniWe. Right? Right? ;-)
Yeah this is real cool right up till the point someone hooks some type of scanning laser up to the grid and digitizes a person and sucks em into the grid. Though admittely that wouldn take long to suck the brains of a typical slashdotter up....
Oh wait that was the movie TRON.....
Forget it.....
Sig went tro...aahemmm.....fishing........
Make that OmniWeb... now don't I look silly making a mistake in a post about spelling? :-D
When I grow up, I want to go to Internet University!
(sorry)
Moderators should have to take a reading comprehension test.
They do, they're called posters.
// TODO: fix sig
You could also mention that Penn State is only limiting your traffic to 56Kbps when you transfer more than 1.5 gigabytes in a week!
Pitty.
It's the same for all nations, if the state uses up tax money to build a really phat backbone local ISPs can make good business and good prices without censorship for the people (the tax payers). Companies get good great access and novel ideas such as IP telephony and video on demand on da net would work better.
More free bandwidth for the people!
I hate to burst your bubble, but I've had 3.5MB/sec and more downloading from microsoft.com at work, here in the UK. I've even had about 4.5MB/sec downloading from the UK kernel mirror site. High speed internet connections are not limited to .edus on Internet2.
:-)
That's one of the good things about working here - my machine is on a 100Mbps LAN that's hanging off a 100Mbps connection to Globix
You can't make light go faster. A 9600 bps fiber link will be just as fast at sending 56 byte ping packets as an OC-192 is.
Meter the bandwidth. Once you go over an acceptable limit, you get a bill slipped under your dorm room door. Don't pay it and you're expelled.
I can download "redhat iso's" from another FTP 600km away at 12MB/s (Our connection is lousy 155Mbit and my workstation connected to it via 1GBit). That FTP is in same country but using different ISP. No edu's here. No Internet2. Just plain old Internet and commercial providers.
This will probably be faster, and nicer than even the good old days when you had to know how to use "nn" to find your porn, as it wasn't crammed down your throat.
Before every company and their brother had to figure out how to make money on the web.
Back when the only junk e-mail you got was the "Good Times" virus warning. (the not so distant good ole days.
yeah, our halo ping times kick ass ;)
All circuits busy.
LOLOLOL you really told him didn't you!
I am a student at a state university, and I would be willing to pay for premium internet access in the dorms. The students who want *fast* internet access should have to pay say $125-$150 a semester, and the others who just want normal access (say capped at 5k/s to the internet, but for the internal university network full speed) get their network for the normal price.
How many people do you think would sign up for this *fast* internet access? I know I sure as hell would.... I would be willing to pay as much as $250 a semester (thats $50 a month) for cablemodem speeds.
If not maybe the universities should find out if he can help them with it. He probably isn't too busy these days.
FoundNews.com - get paid to blog.,
internet 2 is old story .. :D
i'm already building my neck interface for the upcoming one ..
----
One day, your head will be your box,
and your brain will be your client...
One day your head will be your box, your brain will be your client, and all energetic problems will be solved...
It does TCP resets and is ANOTHER piece of equipment that requires maintenance. Besides all of that functionality is rolling out via Cisco/Extreme/Juniper competing border routers so getting another vendor to deal with is not sense. Also, we tested packeteer and the biggest offenders merely set up VPN links to off-campus and defeated the resetter.
Comparing it to Windows will be a moot point, since El Dorado is going to have a 40% larger code base than XP.
It's not a spelling mistake - it's the name of a network. However if you're referring to the (still) uncorrected title of the page - Intenet2 - you'd be right.
Video Game cheats, hints a
Example: I am at BU ans getting 6ms ping times to internet2.edu, slashdot is 22ms.
Why don't you suggest sharing files on the intranet between students. I'm sure someone on the local network has whatever you are looking for. And it will transfer much faster than the Internet could ever be.
My friends and I setup our own network once or twice a month in order to share files. At 100Mbps, with 10-15 computers transfering it doesn't take more than 1-2 hours to trade movies, DVD rips, mp3's, pictures, warez, whatever, etc...
Why don't you suggest this as an alternative to KaZaA, and gnutella. Have some major LAN party each month in a gym or something and just let people download everything they want. Just have them get 80-100GB hard drives before.
This may seem like a stupid question, but why is I2 eating up IPv4 address space? If it is an expieremental network with specific requirements to join onto then why not make testing of IPv6 on of those requirements too?
Remember that bandwidth is the measure of the width of the pipe (common sense, right?) so a fiber line can *carry* more data at once but not send the individual packets any faster to their destination.
speed= distance/time
bandwidth = data-amount/time
You will always have latency even with fat pipes, mainly due to speed of light constraints which other people have already mentioned.
this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom. -- Lincoln, Gettysburg Address
The problem is that Internet2 interconnects the large universities only. All traffic between those universities is routed through internet2 by default.
Yes, it is true that the speed will be limited by the local LAN speed which is usually 100Mbps. But many universities don't have connections faster than 100Mbps to the regular internet and if they do, it is still unlikely that you could talk to a remote site at 100Mbps because the connection is shared. You're certainly much better off when traffic is being routed through I2.
ping time is the sum of:
- OS overhead on each end
- transmission time (getting the packet onto the wire at each hop)
- propagation time (getting the bits down the wire)
- queuing delay (waiting for the preceding packets to get through)
A congested link is a link that's dropping packets because it's full. Queuing delay is normal - yes, there's more of it on a congested link, but there will be some queuing delay (on average) even if the link is only 0.001% utilized.
You WILL see an decrease in ping times with multiple connections unless there is ZERO traffic aside from your ping.
uh oh! looks like we slashdotted internet2.edu! just kidding.