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Cops Have Got Your Number
explosionhead writes "Salon has a nice article about the FBI's stretching their powers for phone taps under the 'Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act' and how this could apply to digital communication. The FCC tried to apply this 3 years ago, and it was fought off, but the article also comments that many of the Telcos were hesitant to argue this time around for fear of bad post Sept-11 publicity." We covered this when it happened, with a lot of good information if I do say so myself. Salon is now noting that no one is willing to challenge the revised FCC rules, running scared in the (dare I say it?) post-September 11 world.
When we're all behind bars.
As usual, a joke.
tcd004
everyone has my phone number. Or those with a phonebook at least.
WWJD.... for a Klondike bar?
We all know that if anyone makes any attempt to challenge any Post-September 11 legislation, they are anti-American, anti-patriotic and of course support and sympathize with terrorists.
just look in the phone book, or on the net "it takes 43 muscles to smile and 3 to pull the trigger of a gun that is next to Bill Gate'$ head!"
Okay, the first post topic was funny, but the funniest part which actually went along with the story was the tagline...
"Can you hear me now? Can you hear me now? Good"
Yes, they hear you loud and clear!!
---
There is no time like the present for postponing what you ought to be doing.
As I have heard, read, and understood, the FBI has devices they can just SET near the wire/line and it picks it up via electrical waves outputted by the wire/line. So, in reality, it isnt really a 'wiretap'. I could see this as being a way to get around the law, or atleast cause a pain in the butt in courts. Of coarse Im no lawyer and Im most likely wrong. Anyone else ever hear about or see one of these devices?
In college, really poor, need a flatscreen.
Salon is now noting that no one is willing to challenge the revised FCC rules, running scared in the (dare I say it?) post-September 11 world.
You've been working with Katz too long, michael.
///Salon is now noting that no one is willing to challenge the revised FCC rules, running scared in the (dare I say it?) post-September 11 world.///
Yes, you can say "post-Semtember 11 world" because the truth is, this event obviously had and will continue have life-changing, far-reaching effects and consequences on every American.
It is our job to make sure those effects evoke positive changes in our lifestyles, not negative ones, even in the short term.
Palaces, barricades, threats, meet promises
I remember a time, from ancient history, when there was a Democrat in the Whitehouse... much less "trust them, they are the government" rhetoric was heard at that time!
Did it occur to you these laws will be in place the next time a Democrat is elected?
-pyrrho
I agree, unless you are discussing bomb plots or the location of Al'Queda operatives, the NSA's voice recognition software is not likley to red flag your call anyway.
On the other hand, I hope this post isn't red-flagged for containing the above keywords.
You know, its pretty sad when I think about this. The terrorists have won; no matter what we say. They wanted to force us to change our lives; they succeeded. They wanted us to give up our way of life; we have, or at least part of it. They wanted us to be afraid; we are, at least to some extent. If you see somebody walking down main street with a large trenchcoat now, your afraid. What might he be doing.
Terrorism will always succeed if we let them force us to change our ways, and give up some of our freedoms.
One of these days i'm going to find this 'peer' guy and reset HIS connection!
I think the oly thing we had to worry about when the last democrat was in office was phone sex not phone taps. I would think the Republicans would be more pre-disposed to taking advantage of this new amount of intelligence
I don't see what the big deal is .. If it's going to help us keep track of who is in touch with terrorists or other crime lords, then so be it, it'll make me feel safer. I don't imagine the FBI will abuse this because i'm sure the telco's will step in and say something if they are randomly listening to calls of people calling phonesex lines or whatever. I just wish people would stop bitching about every little thing that happens in life, just let it go, it's not like they are actually invading our privacy, and if you are that concerned, then stop calling your terrorist friends..
-- pX
Yes, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You can pass all sorts of laws for the protection of the people that gives extra powers, but what then when the "bad guys" are the ones who control all this anti-citizen technology?
This isn't "commie red china" because it can't be. The laws are not (yet) in place to let it be.
Not being american i have to admit i have trouble understanding the post september 11 issue.. It amazes me that since that date the number of basic rights and civil liberties that have been ignored or thrown away in the cause of 'Patriotism' are so big.
it seems anything can be dismissed as post september 11 and be justifiable on the grounds of the war against terrorism...
meanwhile in palestine the IDF moves tanks back into refuge settlements to 'supress undesirable elements' and no one blinks ?
Tragedy that sept 11 was its no excuse to allow your rights and freedoms to be taken away from you and no excuse to not stand up for yourselves or others - America is supposed to be the land of the free and home of the brave - it seems worryinh that these days its increasingly not so free and only brave when backed by superior firepower.....
And am i the only one who thinks that the post septmeber 11 comment has been a great way for the FBI and CIA et al to get around all those niggling civil rights and civil liberties issues? just how long have they been able to do this anyway...
I refuse to argue with Anonymous Cowards - if you want a discussion get an account....
I have no problem at all with the FBI and whoever (law enforcement wise at least) looking at call logs without a warrent. I think that would help a lot in crime fighting.
I DO have a problem with easier wire taps, the listening kind. For better or worse, at least when they record a call, it has to be important enough for an officer/agent etc to spend time listening to it. Manpower alone seems to me to be a significant level of check and ballance. They are not going to devote a "person" to listen to calls, unless they think it is important enough.
-Pete
Soccer Goal Plans
To use DHCP with our phones. Throw in a little no-ip.com and we're all set. :-)
The article brings to mind organizations like the ACLU who find themselves protecting some of the worst people out there (white supremacists, drug dealers, etc) in order to fight for the Bill of Rights.
/.ers and other techies who fight for privacy will not, in the greater scheme of things, be villified for appearing to protect terrorists for the sake of safe email accounts. That's a shortsighted argument. If the FBI wants extra powers to fight the bad guys, they should have no qualms about fighting for those powers in Congress or in our Court System.
In the end, I think
That's the great thing about our system. It's supposed to have the same rules for everybody.
Neat, huh?
-FC
Wasn't this law supported by and enacted under Bill Clinton?
After all, last March the FCC declared that cable broadband was an information service and not a telecommunications service.
gigowiz
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Pushing the zamboni envelope one mile an hour at a time
That is all.
The only thing I can possibly think of to respond to this is the words of Benjamin Franklin. "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither libery nor safety."
If we get rid of the Bill of Rights in order to prevent terrorists (or anyone else) from damaging us, haven't they accomplished what they set out to do?
I know this is probably picking a nit, but isn't the Republican (you know the supposedly conservative party) platform based around less government in the lives of Americans? Doesn't that mean you've now redefined that platform as liberal?
"Suppose you were an idiot..... And suppose you were a member of Congress... But I repeate myself."
I'm sure they have a way to transcribe it directly to text then run some pattern matching algorith to search for certain words and phrases.. so its computing power not man power, and it doesn't take much of a machine to run grep..
Someone posted a comment that more or less said "Why is this a problem? They're not after *you*, as such; they're after the *bad guys*."
Well, yes, it is a problem. I'm all for going after the bad guys, but remember, if this crisis ever ends, these powers will *not* be retracted.
Government usually only gets bigger, not smaller. And they don't easily give up powers once they've been granted. Perhaps the way Congress should be drafting these laws is that they need to come up on periodic review (kind of like the statute for Independent Counsels). At least if we have to tolerate this potential invasion now, then it could be repealed after a few years when things calm down.
I think it's important not to bind the hands of the FBI too much, but at the same time, someone needs to be looking ahead to when this crisis ends.
Another potential glimmer of hope is that the next administration might be influenced to cause a review to be done as part of his getting elected.
I guess we'll see...
"Sometimes the truth is stupid." - Lawrence, creator of Prime Intellect
Well, for those of us who are still on narrowband of 56k or less, and only have one phone, have no friendss that call you, and always squatting on-line talking on voice chat via Yahoo! or AIM, I don't know how easy it would be for the feds to phone tap a bunch modem sounds... :-)
:-)
Who said narrow band doesn't pay off
Wheeeeeeeeeeee!
How long are you going to use 9/11 as a crutch? You seem to think it's an excuse for anything, good or bad. Get over it! Innocent people die every day all over the world. Suck it up and stop letting the government walk all over you. Osama is laughing at you all.
Trust me, I know.
Soccer Goal Plans
And if it's not liberal propaganda, it's right-wing rhetoric about how nice and friendly the government is. With all the lucidity of a member of a retarded herd of cattle.
There are no black and white issues. Repeat that a few times. For some reason, you can't stop ranting about your 'one right way'. How you're "god-damned sick" of things. Of people. Of the "bad guys". Of "them". In addition to everything else you think you know, you seem to know exactly what "they" deserve.
News flash. People have free will, and are generally a disparate, unorganized, and completely fucked-up bunch. There is no "they", and there is no "us". There's just a lot of morons like you trying to force your pathetic little world-view on others. The world doesn't need fewer commie-pinkos, the world doesn't need fewer bible-beaters - the world needs fewer people who think like you.
You could probably earn some respect by discussing your views objectively. Maybe by not being an alarmist and a whiner. By laying out a logical argument and leaving your emotions out of it. Maybe then you'd have something to show for all those letters up there.
Maybe you'll listen. But then again, maybe not. Go ahead - go home tonight, turn on your television, watch your prepackaged party-line news. Or maybe reply to me. Use 'fuck' a lot. That'll teach me.
Like most people, you like to belong to something. Too bad you couldn't go narrower than 40% of the country.
Sorry, I replied to the wrong post.
Soccer Goal Plans
fine, but evidently the Republicans are not worried about that... which I understand, but why are they not concerned with the powers they are giving subsequent presidents? Trust of their own leaders is one thing, but what of the rest? I don't remember "because we trust the government" being part of their story from 1992-2000. I honestly think that when Republicans are in power, they cannot imagine that there ever could be a Democrat in power again. At least, that's how they act, it's back to 1884 - "he's the president, be patriotic!" Wha-huh?
If any party removes checks and ballances because they don't see them as nec. when they are in power... um... what are they thinking!?
The thing that bothers me most is that egregious violations of personal liberties are going on every day and now we trot out one line of Supreme Court caselaw to say it's all okay. Just because one justice once said "the constitution is not a suicide pact" does not make it okay to break the rules that our social fabric is supposed to be based on. The funniest thing is that fear of terrorism (which is the whole reason you attack a country that way) has led us to give up our liberties. We're fighting for "freedom" in Afghanistan, but losing it all at home. If, with the clues they had, the CIA and FBI couldn't figure this one out how are we supposed to expect that with new powers they'll be able to do anything else? They won't. It's not commie-pinko bs like others would suggest. This is just straight talk. Police agencies can't do their jobs with the considerable leeway with regards to the law they are currently granted. Expecting that throwing more (mostly unconstitutional) powers in their hands will somehow make them do their job better is ridiculous. Not only that, but attacking the people who hate us is not a good way to show we're a tolerant nation. It makes us look just as bad as they say we are. Osama bin Laden shouldn't have much trouble finding recruits in Afghanistan or anywhere. The Great Satan has shown once again that we suck just as bad as they've always thought we did. So whatever. I guess we'll let good old Bushie decide for us. If not, we're probably terrorists anyway.
They make take our numbers, but they will never take OUR FREEDOM! ALBA GU BRA!
Er, wait.
The big deal is when Feds decide that you're partaking in certain "un-American" activities (like thinking for yourself, donating money to the ACLU, writing posts like this, etc) and decide to wiretap you. Big deal, right?--You're a good American, you go to work, pay your bills, buy stuff from Wal-Mart; there's nothing for them to find.
/. password, sorry.
But then you say something...Something controversial. It may be personal, politcal, sexual, or mildly criminal; it doesn't really matter because all it takes is a quick phone call to the local constabulary to have you hauled in front of the inquisition and black-listed for life. You'll find that certain opportunities are no longer available to you at this point.
God forbid that you're somebody important (somebody with enough money/power to matter), because it's a simple matter to convict someone in the media these days--just say the word "pedophile" and your career will evaporate.
I realize that some of this reaks of "Pinko-Liberalism" as my history professor once put it, but just remember that this has already happened before (Martin Luther King being the most prominent example with McCarthyism a close second).
Just remember that power is an end unto itself, and individuality is not a virtue in government.
I lost my
hmmm...I'm curious, in what way does this make sense to you? This is from the second page of the article on salon.com
"The industry-advocate coalition won a key victory in August 2000. The U.S. Court of Appeals in Washington blocked four of the six changes the FBI sought and the FCC had ordered, sending them back to the FCC with instructions to better explain why the changes were necessary and how they would balance the needs of law enforcement, the public's right to privacy, and industry's right to a cost-effective way to enforce the law. The FBI took no further action for over a year, and it seemed possible the agency would admit defeat and let the issue die."
then they go to quote much later on:
" We're essentially under siege," Berman said, ticking off issues that had recently come up: the new Homeland Defense Department, new FBI data-mining rules, the Patriot Act. "Would we be challenging this if it were September 10th? Absolutely. The problem is priorities and resources, but don't count us out yet."
I see that Americans are now making everything they do in the excuse of "the September 11th incident"....okay that may have been a huge wake up call to us telling us how slack we have become thinking we are secure in our defense system, to only realize we cant handle the issues within America itself.
"Would we be challenging this if it were September 10th? Absolutely. The problem is priorities and resources, but don't count us out yet."
To Berman, no i dont believe if you've shut your mouth after being asked "what do you exactly plan to do", that you are actually going to do it before something like September 11th (dare to say, hope it doesnt) ever happens again. Precautions are a bit late dont you think...but its an awefully nice gesture...even though he is right in that priorities are the main issue here..unfortunately it is too often that American priorities are on other countries instead of on their own affairs...after all they should be trying to answer the question on how they are to make this a "cost effective way to enforce the law" arent they?
just one persons opinion i guess....pretty much same ol' shit just a different day...
-Alicia
-Alicia
"[...] many of the Telcos were hesitant to argue this time around for fear of bad post Sept-11 publicity."
That list certainly couldn't include Qwest, as they've never yet shied away from any acts that got them bad publicity.
I think he was poking fun at the headline. Chill.
-Berj
"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations."
e s/govt.html
-- James Madison, speech to the Virginia Ratifying Convention, June 16, 1788
"Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
-- Ben Franklin, Respectfully Quoted, p. 201, Suzy Platt, Barnes & Noble, 1993
These were found at http://www.gmu.edu/departments/economics/wew/quot
People who don't care about this since 9-11 are in trouble.
"On the other hand, I hope this post isn't red-flagged for containing the above keywords." Not likely, considering you can't spell.
I'll just set up a quantum information link. If anyone tries to tap into my line, they'll collapse the wavefunction! If anyone tries to spy on me, I'll know that they've tampered with my qubits. All I need is an underground network of dedicated fibre optic links so I can talk to my good friends Alice and Bob. Who says quantum cryptography was a half-baked idea?
Feel free to use "post-9/11", hehe.
-Berj
I'm less and less proud to be an American day by day. Then again America was lost decades ago. There is opportunity in chaos. Looks like the feds are going to take advantage. You'll never get these rights back. If you think you will, look at history, we never get them back. I still to this day believe that the feds had something to do with Sept 11th, if not directly, by simply doing nothing with knowlege of what would happen, as with any crime, follow the money. In this case the power, as money is power, power is money.
Kiss your freedom goodbye, all because others fear a violent event who's chances are 1 in a billion. The majority of our brothers and sisters have been terrorized out of their freedom, and by their own. I prefer to die then live like this.
Bye bye Ms. American Pie...
No, the road to hell is paved with unbought stuffed dogs. At least according to Hemingway. And didn't you mean to put a sarcastic quote around "protection"?
And on someone elses comment: I've had my share of run-ins with bad cops. Cops assume everyone is a criminal because they deal with criminals all day. I assume cops are bad because I've dealt with more bad cops than friendly ones. Although the friendliest cop I've met was in Chicago. He talked about how he killed a gangsta because he was sick of replying to calls to his house because the guy beat up his girlfriend. The cops said "don't make us come back or we'll kill you" and they did. But he was a really nice guy (which is scarey).
riding round the world on an old motorcycle
Dude, get the hell out of the land of the free! If you like harsh laws, lack of civil rights, why not move to somewhere you can truely admire your gov? I think you would be much happier in China, or somewhere like that. Read your constitution, if you don't like what you see, get the fsck out! Stop ruining my country. This is my country, and these are my RIGHTS. Ugh, I've tried hard not to call scared little rabbits like you un-American, but you seem to have no idea what it is to be an American.
I'm ashamed of you, and my other brothers and sisters who fear something that will never happen to them.
>They are not going to devote a "person" to >listen to calls, unless they think it is >important enough.
Really?
Every time the US govt has called an imminent terrorist alert these past few months youd figure there would be heightened security around dams, public buildings and so on.
Guess what they did during those occassions?
Raided marijuana compassion clubs in California even though they are not legal according to state law. (in West Hollywood, the city even co-signed for the building and city officials like the mayor were outside protesting.)
Seeing 30-40 federal agents invade a place where people in wheelchairs, with cancer and AIDS and others who are dying are trying to get some relief REALLY underlines how this terrorist scam is bogus.
It would be pretty sad on any other day but you'd figure they wouldnt raid the sick and the dying on the same days there is 'terrorrist warnings' (sound of loud thunder in the background)
I guess 'terrorrist warnings' implies all those who terrorize the innocent and dying.
If I had to choose between death and loss of privacy, I choose loss of privacy. Even if it is just a significant chance of death, my choice is the same.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
I did read a really great article on that, essence of which...
US = Capitalist, therefore money rules supreme
The People's democratic republic of China has enough money to purchase AolMicrosoftTimeWarnerDisney, otherwise known as The Corporation.
Given their complete control over everything you watch, the software you need for business, the films you see, the newspapers you read, and the copyright laws and EULAs which allow them to invade your home and put you in jail for any copies of anything they find, where does that leave the country?
Remember, this is capitalism.
There are no black and white issues :-[
Oooh, I have one! I can't get the NoCD crack to work with my (legally-purchased) copy of that game. I want to leave my (pirated) Dungeon Siege CD in all the time but I keep having to take it out to play Black and White
Will YOU be the next enemy combatant?
You Americans are so stupid. Don' you get that your lifestyle offends half the globe? Although nothing excuses what happened on 9.11 it happened because those who did it are unhappy about US military presence in Saudi Arabia (even if under invitation). You don't need to open the pandora's box of spy-tactic laws to stop this you just need to stop offending people.
Oh, and when you got abroad and ask "hey boy, you speak American?" remember it's called "English"!
I am a resident of New Delhi,India and I have comment to make : I remember reading an article in the Wall Street Journal early last year about how the Indian police was profiling foreign visitors from Pakistan and much of the Arab world and tracking their every move. I recall the moral outrage expressed in that WSJ article. And now when I read about the meausures your government is implementing , all I can say is bwaaahahaahaah!
Btw, none of these measures wil add a wee bit to your sense of security. But hopefully , the rest of the world won't have to suffer your lectures on how much more freedom your citizens have as compared to those in the rest of the democratic societies !
Dear esteemed members of the Slash-dot community:
It gives me great pain to announce that one of your editors, Michael Sims, is a member of the Communist party. Over the past 15 years, Mr. Sims has engaged in a number of practices which aid and abet known Communist organizations, jeopardizing the security of the United States of America and other miscellaneous nations.
I am calling for a boycott of Michael Sims, until he gives me an apology for his rampant goatse'ing of the Censorware Project, my pride and joy.
Thank you.
I'm not Seth Finkelstein. I still speak the truth.
The choice you're making is between the possibility that an otherwise successful investigation might be slowed down by the necessity to obtain legal authorization, and the certainty that oversight covering scrutiny of your personal life will be removed.
Essentially, they're selling you a false dilemma.
What we call folk wisdom is often no more than a kind of expedient stupidity.-Edward Abbey
Incredible response. im fucking sick of these people that think we need to give up our freedoms to protect ourselves. if the gov't has the freedom, then you know what? you can be sure as hell they're gonna use it.
with their refreshing naivete!
You are aware that a large part of the reason that FBI was, until recently, so well handcuffed was *because* they abused their powers by spying on and entrapping people who had nothing to do with terrorism?
While the agents out in the field are hard-working, good people, the bureaucracy that directs the FBI has proven itself, time and time again, to be not just untrustworthy but incompetent as well!
The fact is that we now live in the post 'politically correct' world of the 90s..
It is not a happy lets all get to know each other
place.. there are some seriously dangerous groups,
and people out there that we have to be careful
of.. anything else is really naive..
So after Sept 11, there are really only 2 choices..
Either:
1)We get non citizen people who are in the US from high risk groups (this means Al-quada countries, young male Muslims..etc) out, and make them re-apply their visas. If it costs the US govt $100,000K to do a real proper investigation on someone from these places, then that is the visa fee they pay, or they don't come back in. Then the investigation is done, and if they pass, they can come in. For good measure I would also have an American citizen in good standing (a fireman, police officer, town mayor) also take responsibility for them when they are here. If they cannot find anyone, then they also don't come in.
Then we won't need laws like the above in our own
country, and we won't lose our rights.
Or choice 2:
2)We let them stay, but then the govt. has to do things like this law above, to tell apart the bad guys from the good ones who are among us. But the downside is that we lose our rights in the process.
Basically, that is the dillemma our government is in right now..
Practically, those are really the only 2 things you can do. Personally, I choose (1). Neither are nice really, and hopefully sometime soon in the future, we won't need to do either... but that is just not the reality right now in today's world..
"What are they thinking?!"
Ummm... Isn't it obvious they're thinking, "Oooh, more Yummy Power."
Fuck Republican hypocrites.
says the guy with probably a few dozen illegal mp3 copies of copyrighted music on his hard-drive, along with a few pirated commercial software maybe ?
Well, that's not entirely true. Now any government around the world can follow the US's lead and exterminate any group that opposes them with impunity and call it "War on Terrorism" and say they are doing their part. Also you now have no right to be assumed innocent. You can be assumed terrorist without any real proof. Aint it grand?
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
That was obviously a facetious statement.
"First they came for the Communists,
but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Socialists
and the Trade Unionists,
but I was neither,
so I did not speak out.
Then they came for the Jews,
but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.
And when they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out for me."
Martin Niemoeller
So I am saying support non mainstream political causes and do not be afraid of the big bad intelligence agencies. They cannot lock us all up, and if they do I want to be on the inside.
Be Free: Free Software Tuition
...You should have labeled this as the sarcastic comment that it is. You should know by know how few Slashdot readers can correctly identify sarcasm.
STOP MISUSING APOSTROPHES, YOU MORONS!!!
I have to post as an AC because I work in Law Enforcement, but please hear me out.
We all know the problems that American intelligence agencies had before 9-11. They had information pointing towards the attacks, but compartmentalization meant the pieces were never put together.
As strange as it may sound, wouldn't an Open Source approach to intelligence have worked better? Think of we had used the peer review method on the intelligence reports? Millions of eyes looking at the data would have certainly connected the dots.
We don't need a secret "proprietary" approach to National Security, we need to Open Source what we know and let the tried and true methods of the Open Source community do its work.
this means Al-quada countries And which countries, pray tell, are those. Saudi Arabia? Indonesia? Germany?
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
There again goes that sad little polemic technique, about how bad guys shouldn't have rights, don't you agree? But the problem that
you don't see (because you're stupid?) or
don't want others to notice (because
you're fascist?) is HOW DO YOU KNOW WHO THE
BAD GUYS ARE IN THE FIRST PLACE?
Considered harmful.
Road to hell?! You mean we're not there already, it's gonna get worse? Oh fuck!
...if you don't have anything to hide?
Dude, it's been a decade or two (or three) since the US could be called the land of the free (at least with a straight face).
"I agree, unless you are discussing bomb plots or the location of Al'Queda operatives, the NSA's voice recognition software is not likley to red flag your call anyway."
And that's supposed to be reassuring?
Ahem. I've been arguing this point with a leftist-commie-pinko-bastard friend of mine, and I think I've come up with a way of expressing things that is understandable to low-grade morons. The first point that needs to be established is that Laws are not mandates from god (in the U.S., at least). I would challenge anyone in the country to say conclusively that they had never broken a law. I would also like to point out that there are some laws that are unconstitutional; they are still laws until they get thrown out, but should a person obey a law where obedience breaks a higher law? Ok, so things aren't black and white. right? So. If the government can catch everyone breaking any law, even the silly ones, even the illegal ones, even the unconstitutional ones, then you claim that this is a GOOD thing? I don't quite understand that point of view.
Why, yes, I AM a Pagan Libertarian.
Go ahead and mark me as a troll or redundant, but I read this piece recently and feel it is relevant. I care not for karm but would just wish more people considered this.
March 11, 2002
I think the vast differences in compensation between the victims of the September 11th casualty, and those who die serving the
country in uniform, are profound. No one is really talking about it either because you just don't criticize anything having to do with September 11th. Well, I just can't let the numbers pass by because it says something really disturbing about the entitlement mentality of this country.
If you lost a family member in the September 11th attack, you're going to get an average of $1,185,000. The range is a minimum guarantee of $250,000, all the way up to $4.7 million. If you are a surviving family member of an American soldier killed in action, the first check you get is a $6,000 direct death benefit, half of
which is taxable. Next, you get $1,750 for burial costs. If you are the surviving spouse, you get $833 a month until you remarry.
And there's a payment of $211 per month for each child under 18. When the child hits 18, those payments come to a screeching halt. Keep in mind that some of the people that are getting an average of $1.185 million up to $4.7 million are complaining that it's not enough. We also learned over the weekend that some of the
victims from the Oklahoma City bombing have started an organization asking for the same deal that the September 11th families are getting. In addition to that, some of the families of those bombed in the embassies are now asking for compensation as well.
You see where this is going, don't you? Folks, this is part and parcel of over fifty years of entitlement politics in this country. It's just really sad. "Patriotism is not a short and renzied outburst of emotion but the tranquil and steady dedication of a lifetime." --Adlai E. Stevenson, Jr.
Every time when a pay raise comes up for the military they usually receive next to nothing of a raise. Now the green machine is in combat in the Middle East while their families have to survive on food stamps and live in low rent housing. However our own U.S. Congress just voted themselves a raise, and many of you don't
know that they only have to be in Congress one-time to receive a pension that is more than $15,000 per month and most are now equal
to be millionaires plus. They also do not receive Social Security on retirement because they didn't have to pay into the system.
If some of the military people stay in for 20 years and get out as an E-7 you may receive a pension of $1,000 per month, and the very people who placed you in harms way receive a pension of
$15,000 per month. I would like to see our elected officials pick up a weapon and join ranks before they start cutting out benefits
and lowering pay for our sons and daughters who are now fighting.
Cave, wreck, and deep diver.
Bad people like Martin Luther King Junior? The FBI contacted him regularly, telling him that if he didn't stop the whole civil rights deal, they were going to tell everyone he was a womanizer -- information they gleaned by spying on him.
I have one word for you. Carnivore.
...or will you just let your good Big Brother protect you?
The ISP-based surveillance tool model DCS-1000 (a.k.a. "Carnivore") has been extensively used by the FBI since the September 11 attacks. It's a surveillance appliance that has been installed at numerous ISPs nationwide (not just dialup ISPs; cable,DSL, and major fiber-optics ISPs have been tapped as well). I don't know much about the way this tool works. All I know is that it searches in the data streams to and from the ISP's server(s). Many technology magazines have made sensationalist hype about how this works (which really is how they *think* it works). The truth is that the way Carnivore works is completely classified. Also, the placement of the search tool is classified, and there's no information as to what ISPs are tapped.
Why would the FBI follow such secret practices? Why would they plant search tools in ISPs? Why would they tap your telecommunications service? WHY??? it's to stop some sick fundamentalist group from parking a car in fromt of the white house with a nuclear weapon in the trunk!!! THAT'S WHY!!!!! Now you people, please look at the big picture! You may think that all of this surveillance is cutting back on what we call "our rights". Well, to borrow a phrase from Thomas Jefferson: "[It is the obligation] of every government to yield protection to their citizens as the consideration for their obedience.". And as to the people who do not believe it necessary for the government to keep tabs on their citizens' activities, I let Jefferson speak to you again, through this quote: 'A nation who wishes to remain free and ignorant expects what never was and never will be.'. I think Thomas Jefferson was right.
And if you think for a minute that your rights are being violated because of government surveillance, think of the more than 3,000 people who died horribly to the hands of fundamentalist, degenerated terrorists on September 11. Which would you rather have? Would you rather die in a dirty bomb attack, would you prefer dying in a city bombing, or a skyscraper attack?
That's right. God bless America.
The United States should do all of the above. Especially "Mind their own business" - you little dipshits have your snouts in everyone's business.
I see all us geeks flipping out over the U.S. government possibly eavesdropping on our electronic communications... Have we all forgotten that they've been doing this for decades now with Echelon?
I didn't see all us self-righteous nerds stand up and fight when this information came out.
And us Americans out there, how quickly we forget that we actually have more rights now than in 50 years. Example, Miranda rights. Another example, police motor vehicle search and seizure.
This is not the end of our civil liberites people. I'm sure the ACLU will step in and continue to fight for the rights of terrorists to blow us to little bits, but never care once about our right as citizens not to be blown to little bits. Figures.
And Einstein...he was a real troublemaker.
Well he was an out'n'out socialist, which amounted to the same thing in the eyes of the FBI.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
The only people I can think of that have had their "Civil Rights violated" are illegal aliens with existing deportation orders from Al Qaeda based countries and a guy that looks like John Doe #2 who was planning to set off a radiological bomb after returning from the Middle East. People that do not deserve protection that an American Citizen is afforded in America. They are illegal combatants, they want you dead. They couldn't give a damn if you had Civil Rights in the first place. You are an American. Your country supports Israel. You live a decadent lifestyle. You are a legitimate target in their eyes and they don't follow the Geneva Convention.
As long as you are not a member of Al Qaeda or hanging out with Al Qaeda members at strip clubs and pilot training, you have nothing to worry about. The FBI, CIA and Homeland Security have more important things to do than tap your phone so they get the time and place of your next LAN party. Besides, you probably aren't important enough in the first place to warrant their attention.
Remember folks, we are in a war and the war zone is the United States. A war not against a nation state but a terrorist group that knows no borders. We are not going to win by making our law enforcement agencies toothless and blind.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Lenny Henry once did a skit talking about "extra powers" that were to be given to English
police. "Extra powers? they don't need any bloody extra powers, that is like sticking a spear on the end of a cruise missile d'you know what I mean?"
It seems an awfully apt analogy here. I thank my lucky stars I do not live in the USA.
Although, being in Australia, I have to contend with a monkey of a prime minister, who
jumps at anything George W. says. Ok, now I am scared. George has stated in press releases
"If you're not with us, you're against us", and words to the effect that pre-emptive strikes would be a good idea. How did he get into the white house? Black and white childish responses such as these should have been drummed out of him in high school.
The similarity between the current american Govt and the Nazi regime of 1930s Germany is disturbing. Maybe next George W. will suggest that afganis, or veitnamese or chinese should wear little badges proclaming their nationality, "just in case they are dangerous"
We in Aussie have seen the re-invention of the Ghettos, in our detention centres.(no I am not proud of these, they are an atrocity).
Did you think it was bad when you heard of a tourist getting sent to Siberia?
Remember folks, COINTELPRO was discovered, the FBI reprimanded and restructured, but do you think they ever stopped? They just make sure that everything is kept hidden better.
It's worth noting that Iranians, Iraqis, Sudanese are immediately suspect at immigration queues, and Saudis (most of the 9/11 guys were Saudi) and Egyptians (well-represented too) aren't. Something to do with their states being allies. Oh yes,
I don't understand why the September 11th is such a big thing in the US. ...).
There are contries that have to cope with much more devistation due to terrorism of all kinds.
As I see it, it's just a wake-up call that even US ppl are not safe, but their reaction is out of any proportion (as a result of ego-centrism: if it didn't happen in the US, it is not real, if it did happen
Unfortunately, they are now facing the concequences of these overrated reactions by the hands of their own people that do not have _freedom_ in mind and were just looking for an excuse.
perhaps even
sed -e "s/they are now/we are now/g "
Genius doesn't work on an assembly line basis. You can't simply say, "Today I will be brilliant."
Did you catch this one:
....all the digits dialed during a phone call -- obtained through a process known as "dialed-digit extraction."
"The FBI wants call-identifying information to include
You realise they're giving themselves powers to obtain all your telephone pin numbers.
If they have the pin numbers, there is no need to obtain a warrant to search a bank account, you could just dial the bank and use the pin numbers.
There are no checks possible to this, the FBI agent could just walk to any phone booth and do this.
At the moment they need a warrant to obtain a wire tap. But with the pin numbers anyone could dial an answer-phone and listen to the answering machine messages.
Why is the FBI so frightened of answering to the courts? All they have to do is convince a judge that the suspect *might* be involved in criminal activities.
"Pepole who are willing to give up their freedoms for security and/or convenience deserve neither". I truly wonder what the people who started our country would do today if they saw what we have become... Probably they would have stayed with England.....
what with all the cutting off of privacy and the government surveillance and the fear of being anti american when raising an opinion and the security clamp downs,
sounds to me like america is becoming more and more like the middle east! BUwhahahaha!!
just what osama bin laden wanted.
Stupid Americans.
one of these days you'll all be under government control with chip implants "for your safety"
Sometimes living in an technologically ass-backwards country like mine has it's advantages.
Does this mean that people will stop using ebonics?
In a democracy, we are all responsible for our government's actions. Some may say that the last presidential elections were rigged in Florida, but that only makes a difference if they were rigged in a lot of other states too. Sorry, there was only one brother. George W. Bush was more or less democratically elected, and much more so than the Taleban Mullah Omar or Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
So here we are in a democratic state. What does that mean? Well, not just armed forces are valid targets for the terrorist mindset. If the average US voter disagreed with current middle-eastern policy, then maybe Osama wouldn't be so resentful or attract so much support for his attacks on civillians.
Until now, many people were not aware of the ramifications of international policy decisions. Some people who travelled were already aware, but they were a minority.
Should people back down, well no. However think about what effects that foreign policy has and try to work out whether that policy is worth your support and tell your elected representatives. Foreign policy should be more than just who gets what juicy contract.
Oh and a final point is that if your country has a military force made up largely from reservists like Israel, it becomes very difficult to decide who, apart from children doesn't represent a target to a terrorist. Most males between 18 and 50 or so are serving one month a year in the army, same for women up to the birth of their children. Can you see a terrorist understanding "Sorry don't shoot or bomb me, I'm not wearing my uniform"?
In theory, yes. If the government prosecuted EVERYONE on EVERY broken law, the courts would be forced to examine them all on a case-by-case basis. So, if you trust the judicial branch to overthrow laws that are lapses of logic, you might be persuaded to allow this sort of thing.
err umm ... Just who was signing these acts into law back in 1994 when this one passed?
I've heard from various folks that CALEA enforcement is pretty toothless, as telco's can delay implementation almost endlessly through legal maneuverings, and then claim a section 109 hardship exemption due to economic impact (pretty relevant these days what with the telcomm-related stock crashes).
a lot of you people weren't around to complain during World War II. A lot of these same "civil liberties violations" you guys report about were implemented during war time in WWII. Face the music folks, in times of war, you have to give things up for the sake of security. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
My favorite line is that once we give up some of these civil liberties for the sake of security, we'll never get them back. Yeah right! Everyone's civil liberties are being so horribly trampled on right now. Uh huh...Give me a break. In WWII curfews were enacted, they didn't continue! As the media likes to point out so very often, our airport security is not as tight as other countries in the world, yet a lot of you are complaining that they are even doing random searches to begin with.
It makes me sick. I suppose we should just keep everything pre-9/11 and just wait for something horrible to happen again. There are far too many Very Bad People operating within our own country unchecked and that has to come to a stop.
It sickens me that the "shoe-bomber" may get off on grounds that he may not have understood his miranda rights because he was given valium... EVEN THOUGH EVERYDAY PEOPLE WRESTLED WITH HIM IN THE AIRCRAFT!!!!
The only thing that's naive here is to believe that either one of those options would be of any but the most marginal help.
When we give up our Constitutional freedoms we give up everything that's worth fighting for. Terrorism was around before September 11th. It just didn't seem to be our problem before.
So really you are saying that you are too unimaginative to see any other options than 1) become a nation of xenophobic isolationists or 2) become a nation that throws away its basic tenets when things get too hard.
No, what you are god-damned sick of are people who dare think differently than you.
-plain and simple. 99% of all actions done by the government and people of the US since 911 have been based on a reflex due to fear.
It has been many generations that the US has fought a war on its mainland. The idea that anyone could hurt the nation so much was horrific - that's why the media keep saying that "We'll never be the same."
While the fear has a basis, the trick is to balance the reactions to the fear so that the cure is not worse than the malady. We also have to be watchful that not every single pork barrel projects or favorite political initiatives get shoved through on the tide of such fears.
Fortunately, there are still some principled and rational journalists and organizations who are brave enough to speak out for such balances. So BE SURE TO SUPPORT THEM. Send in that donation to ACLU and others fighting for your rights!
It was clear just how cliched when comedy shows returned to the air and quickly made dozens of jokes that ended "because if x, the terrorists win." That just took a matter of weeks.
They care about the deaths caused, the attention and the calculable economic disruption, maybe, but not changing our day to day life. Like Eddeye says, they want us out of Mideast and/or destroyed. All the more reason we should do the patriotic thing and stand against unnecessary encroachment on freedom. The founders would have wanted it that way.
I'm less concerned about the direct effects of another attack and more about the panic, because in a mass panic we can see how fragile our system really might be.