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LindowsOS Softens Microsoft-Compatibility Claim
jukal writes: "As seen originally at newsforge: On Friday we reported the appearance of Microtel PCs with LindowsOS pre-installed at Walmart.com. Then, Walmart.com and Lindows were claiming that LindowsOS 'delivers the stability of UNIX with the ease of Windows and the ability to run most Microsoft programs.' Today, that last phrase has gone missing and there is no more talk of running any programs designed for Windows, let alone Microsoft products"
actually, honestly expect that phrase to last?
I am surprised that the MS lawyers weren't over then in minutes.
-- You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stay alive.
"most Microsoft programs"
How long before "most Microsoft programs" have little bits of code added to shot them working on anything but offical microsoft windows.. that really would be the end of lindows
Cruise TT
...that MS threatened infringement or something like that over using the phrase "Microsoft" or "Windows" in the advertising of LindowsOS?
The One Rule Of Chess You'll Ever Need: Don't play someone who carries a kit in their bookbag.
Promises one thing... delivers another. Its well on the way to MS territory already! ;)
I guess they dont even read the submissions anymore. That messed up html sticks out.
Is it just me, or is giving linux to the consumer this early a bad thing? I'm sure Lindows is great and all, but your average Joe buying a PC from wallmart for $700 is NOT going to want to run linux applications, much less deal with managing the OS. I still think linux (or in this case Lindows) has a long way to go.
Am I wrong? Do people that buy PCs from walmart frequent this site?
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
i mean seriously, there's no way they could've gotten away with that kind of campaign.. MS would've tied them up in litigation just for using the word windows with a capital W until their money ran out and they went bankrupt. On the good side, Wal-mart isn't really afraid of Microsoft, so Wal-mart is in the unique position of being able to weather MS's wrath and make an offering of something like Lindows... now if we could just get them to package something decent like a BSD variant and KDE3, and build the computer out of lots of translucent brightly colored plastic, we might have some appeal. Go after that Mac market!
Did Lindows really fail to live up to the compatibility hype or did Steve Ballmer come in and say, "All your Windows interoperability claims are belong to us; there is no chance to survive, make your changed specs!"
(Lame, I know. I'm sorry.)
But the question is; how sure can we be that the technical compatibility (which you and I know was not nearly as good as it should be, thanks to threat of MS suit and hidden APIs) causing this pullback, and not legal threats for using MS Trademarks on their marketing materials?
SlashSigTheorem: Humorous, Political, Critical, Constructive- If you have a
Here's the functioning link.
4 258.sh tml?tid=23
Here's the actual URL:
http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/06/18/134
I think the new wording is better, and perhaps a bit more accurate for two reasons.
:-)
;-), but Linux doesn't have as difficult of an aura around it. Thus, it is more accurate, and also more likely to sell to the ordinary computer user.
1. It doesn't accidentally promote windows products or even microsoft products. It lets you know that Lindows is a completely new OS, but it "delivers the stability of Linux with the ease of Windows." As well, it now lets you know that instead of having to return to the old Windows products, which were known to be buggy. There are new products made specifically for Lindows that will fit your needs (Which may or may not be buggy, but there is the chance that they aren't). This is the first really good reason for the change, because now a new user will feel that instead of just getting another computer like the rest of the world, he's riding the wave of a "exciting new OS".
2. As well, now it is more accurate. Originally it used a lot of terms making it appear as though Lindows was a UNIX operating system, when it is really a Linux one. This would deter customers since UNIX has a sorta connotation of difficulty to it for newbies (who have just kinda heard of it from users who just touched it and saw commands like egrep, col, ls, and wc
To be honest, their new wording is considerably better then the old one. IMHO.
~ kjrose
Er yes it has. To quote from the page in question,
The low cost alternative to computers preloaded with Microsoft Windows. These PCs ship with an exciting new Linux based Operating System (OS) named Lindows. This exciting new OS delivers the stability of Linux with the ease of Windows and they include a trial membership to a library of over 1,000 software programs so they can be outfitted for any purpose whether business, home, or entertainment.
I don't see anything in there about running most MS software.
---- scrm
"And the people buying PCs from Wal-Mart....Need to run Linux? Their boxen would get r00ted faster than people who didn't patch their apache yet."
Uh huh, and just last week you were complaining that these same people are zelots and run windows because its spoon fed to them. Why don't we just kill them and forget the whole thing? Oh wait, that would be mean.
--Should work--
Since the link is broken in the article, the full phrase is:
"The low cost alternative to computers preloaded with Microsoft Windows. These PCs ship with an exciting new Linux based Operating System (OS) named Lindows. This exciting new OS delivers the stability of Linux with the ease of Windows and they include a trial membership to a library of over 1,000 software programs so they can be outfitted for any purpose whether business, home, or entertainment."
The link
The world moves for love. It kneels before it in awe.
Evil ZEN Scientist
Correct as written - there's no phrase explicitly about being able to run Windows applications. ..but is it sinister? Or just a precursor step to keep Microsoft from bashing the living hell out of any merchant agreement they might have?
Check the EULA for VS.net. In order to distribute the redisributables, they must "only operate in conjunction with Microsoft Windows platforms". 3.1(a)
.net derived programs.
Also 3.1(b) seems (I'm no lawyer) aimed at forbidding open source licensing of
It will run "most Microsoft programs"....
The phrase had to be removed, because not even Windows can run "most Microsoft programs".
"The large print giveth, and the small print taketh away" -Tom Waits
that last phrase has gone missing
That last link has gone missing, methinks: "http://slashdot.org/<A HREF=". A pretty wierd link for a newsforge story...
Where are the editors?
-Andrew
I really hate to argue, but where? I can't find it. ". . .and the ability to run most Microsoft programs." is the part that is missing. Show me where on Walmart's page that exists.
If you can't find it, then the story is not bollocks as you so quickly stated.
3cx.org - A truly bad website.
It isn't here. The text is as Newsforge ("read the page source, Luke! Read the source!" - the link that Slashdot's mangled is http://newsforge.com/newsforge/02/06/18/1344258.sh tml?tid=23 ) claims it to be.
KMSMA (WWBD?)
Wait, with XP and the ability to get raw socket access, we're in trouble anyway.
OT, but here we go. You know, with the increasing ease of creating a worm or a virus that can take over a machine, kill routers, flood mailservers, etc., how long will it be before computers start getting treated like cars? i.e. They have their purposes, but you need to have a license to use one legally.
Frankly, I'm just waiting until this happens, or rather until someone at least proposes the idea in a bill. Of course, if the CBDTPA passes, we essentially wouldn't have computers anymore anyway.
I just went there and found the phrase missing. Where were you looking?
Raisinettes are my raison d'etre
And yet despite that, we've already got plenty of people raising the possibility that it's due to evil legal manuevering by Microsoft. Sometimes I wonder just how paranoid some of the Slashdotters out there really are.
(Disclaimer: I'm secretly receiving money, women, and youth rejuvenation treatments from Microsoft in exchange from posting pro-Microsoft comments here. I've also been instructed to bribe both RMS and Linus into joining our organization.)
No, I doubt many people who buy prepackaged comps from walmart actively follow /. However, what I do think is great is that the concept of linux is being offered right next to the Blue Light Special on aisle 5. Seriously, even if the "W" word is missing from the current marketing campaign, the fact remains that the hybrid-ish OS is widely available to people who may never have heard of *nix, or may have only heard of it in context with the "geek" community.
So long as Lindows remains in that sort of distribution circle, I have a feeling that more people are going to gain exposure, and even if touted as interoperable with most MS programs, most people only care about surfing websites, word processing, and gaming. So long as Lindows can perform with Win* on that regard, they should be fine; if the comparable cost of a PC pre-installed with "L" vs. "W" is low enough, it should be a success.
Hell, people may just be excited when they see that their fav porn sites pop up quicker. But for a moderate linux user (freebsd is my fav. os), I find that Mandrake is not hard to install or configure; anything easier than that will definitely have a mass consumer base. It's just a matter of keeping it on the shelves; I applaud the move of removing "Windows" from their promo, so long as they aren't going to get hosed for name-brand recognition entirely by doing so.
Never attribute to Hanlon that which can be adequately attributed to Heinlein.
+1 insightful!
Why was this posted in the Linux category? This has more to do with Microsoft than Linux.
I'm no elitist (see, I didn't even spell it right), but I totally agree. I work in a computer retail store that is on campus at a rather large southeastern university that is trying very desperately to move away from it's former Agriculture days and into the Tech society (they even changed thier name to reflect this). Nonetheless, day after day I deal with this: Them: "Uhm, I like, uhm, need to by some like, um, ink for my like, um, printer?" Me: "Allrighty, what sort of printer to you have?" Them: *pause, widen eyes* "Uhm. Uh, uhm. Uh. It's like, uhm, Beige?" And of course who can forget the myriad of people who walk in and say: "Uhm, uh. I'd like to uhm, by a copy of Microsoft Windows Office Word XP Mellenium Edition Home Pro 2000?" One day, in absolute frustration, I asked this customer, "Would you ever consider walking into a car lot and asking for a 'Toyota Lexus Marquis Miyata Ranger Jimmy'?" Thank Zaphod he had a sense of humor.
Why do I M2 everything negatively?
Does anyone know if they make the sourcecode available online and if so where? Under the GPL they could probably make it available "upon request", but I hope they're being nicer about it than that.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
The new wording is more accurate, but not stating it runs Windows apps will be a killer for many sales. This box is meant for Joe Enduser, who probably has never heard of Linux, and thinks Windows is the greatest OS around. All he really cares is if Word, Quicken, and Quake 3 will run on it. Most users don't want thousands of applications, they want the 2 or 3 they use. While this is a great line for geeks, that isn't the market for the PC. I predict this line of PCs will last about 4 months before they are pulled or have Windows put on them unless the marketing is changed ASAP.
"Information wants to be expensive" - Stewart Brand, the same guy who said "Information wants to be free"
DOS
Linux
BeOS
Lindows
OS X
OS 9 (classic)
Darwin
OS X and VPC, solves all of your puny OS problems on the best hardware!
I want 2D games back.
what the?
He types the link thats in the story and works just fine, and gets modded up as informative?
Come on Moderaters, at least read the story if you're not gonna read the article first.
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
"6) True love exists -- at the bottom of a liquor bottle"
So...that dead worm is True Love? [pokes it with a stick] Eeew. I think I'll stick with one-night-stands.
Perhaps excitedly was a better work. He probably said bollocks slowly as he imagined a pair of them, brimming with man-juice, slapping against his treble-chins. The editors would like to take this opportunity to apologize for the incorrect wording.
Chris Kuivenhoven is a thief, beware
Stability of Linux.
Ease of Windows.
Big software library, easy to get and they'll all install and work fine.
Hey! They made a graphical installer and GUI apt front end for Debian!
The masses are the crack whores of religion.
Maybe we will start seeing Lindows run some "switch" commercials kind of like Apples. The difference would be that the whiny little idiots would complain that Windows/Mac was too "clunky and that I couldn't figure out how to move things around". Maybe they will also thrown in that, "Lindows just works more like my Brain does."
Speaking of which, are't those people the biggest idiots you have ever seen? Somebody should smack them all silly. My personal favorite is the Windows Admin who says that he just wants to come home to computers that "work". Perhaps he should seek a new area of employment if he's unable to get his Windows machines to work...
:-)
J
I love idealists not because I am one, but because they make life bearable for pragmatists such as myself.
Another reason that the removal of the claim for windows compatability is that it prevents people from buying lindowsOS with the expectation of running all of their old windows apps on this "new linux thingie". Obviously, soon after buying a LindowsOS PC, anyone such as this who is trying to run their Windows apps on linux *will* have a bad experience, because most programs will run slow or not at all. This bad experience could cause them to avoid linux from then on and tell others not to get it because "it doesn't run any of my programs"
...actually worked - I REALLY WAS looking at an old page - Christ knows where it was coming from, as I'd never been to Wal Mart before. I'd only just linked to the site from desktoplinux.com 5minutes before seeing the Slashdot story. Very strange. My apologies, the story seems to be true, most of the COMMENTS OTOH are bollocks as usual.
That was classic intercourse!
He types the link thats in the story and works just fine, and gets modded up as informative?
The link was originally broken when the story was first published, due to bad HTML. The editors have since corrected the link. The comment in question was posted while the link was still malformed, which explains why it was modded up.
Emulators have never worked well on any platform. A lot of programs just have to be run in their native environment. It does not surprise me at all that wal-mart backed down from it's previous claim. There will be too much microsoft software that just won't work with Lindows OS. I would like to try Lindows, but I won't cough up $99 just to test a beta. Anyway, emulators blow.
How ya like dat?
only the most powerful scanners actually make your head explode. Jesus, everyone knows that!
That was classic intercourse!
You get the idea 8-)
do you still run it as root in the default installation? If so, it loses a key advantage over windows: stability and safety.
I think to claim it compatible with windows... it had *better* run MOST windows software very well. The standard wine (not counting the enhanced versions like wineX, codeweavers) cannot run MOST complex windows programs, let alone Games which you can be sure a home user is going to be very interested in running. I'm willing to bet these boxen will not last 6 months at Walmart.
Note: I'm a full time linux user and advocate, but I'm also a realist.
Blender And Linux Fan
THat never made it into the shipping product. However, it was there in the prerelease sent out to reviewers, causing them to conclude that dr-dos wasn't yup the the task.
THis was a factor in the half-billion dollar settlement . . . though I thought that trebling ten per cent of the current market would have been a more interesting remedy . .
hawk
I haven't seen this mentioned anywhere but I think it's important to look at the demographics behind Walmart's decision to market these computers.
This may be a bit offtopic but it's worth mentioning -- how do these people who are buying these boxes going to get on the internet? Perhaps they aren't the most technically inclined (trying to put it as nicely as possible) and so the most logical and easy way to get on the internet is to go through AOL.
Unless Walmart has bundled in some kind of ISP deal that supports Linux, has AOL released a Linux client, or did Wine start running AOL and I didn't hear about it, how do these computers get on the internet?
If none of the above are true then I would say this is a bad, bad move on behalf of Walmart. Let's face it-- these days, the internet is probably 90% of the point of owning a computer. I would love to know how these people are planning to have any internet connectivity.
probably had the page cached as a 'performance enhancer' for you.
That Lindows parted ways with CodeWeavers. Back in October of last year they were all gung-ho about producing a system that could run Windows software. But, once the Codeweavers deal fell through they scrapped "plan a" and opted for "plan b" instead: sell basic machines to computer novices who don't plan to install Windows software anyway. A lot of the Lindows Insiders are still trying to get Lindows to support PC games with Transgaming's version of WineX. But, we'll see what happens. Honestly, I don't think this is a bad thing. In one sense you want to "provide a bridge" for people on Windows machines to make the transition over to Linux. But, on the other hand, you want people to stop supporting Microsoft's monopoly all together. And, that means stop buying Microsoft software and start using open source alternatives. It might also convince game companies, and others to start release Linux versions of their software as well.
As some other people said, selling Lindows can be damaging to the public image of Linux. Maybe it won't be that damaging, or maybe many people won't buy it, but it will be a little damaging. I think they would do a much better job using a easy-to-use distro, like Mandrake or Lycoris, simplify it so they don't confuse users (remove GNOME or KDE, etc), and bundle it with CrossOver Office. That way, they could market the fact that it runs Word, Excel, and Powerpoint (crossover doesn't run Outlook and Access very well), and also market the fact that its Linux.
that's why lindows is using it's lamer click-n-run application library, so your average user won't have to deal with any complexities of software installation.
by the way, in a few years from now all OS's will be almost unrecognizable compared to today. don't expect MS to stand still while linux makes progress, they will have revolutionary changes too, and windows XX will probably be the first os to get the annoying file system out of the user's way - I figure *nix won't ever go that route and that will turn out to be a mistake.
i agree, it's a solution to pirates, a free OS on hardware, you don't have to worry about assembeling your PC, and you don't get stuck for the bill.....i get so much more out of building my own computer, and i'm sure if i built a $500 system, it'd be a hell of a lot more machine than this microtel....
--fetch daddy's blue fright wig, i must be handsome when i release my rage
I cant think that its legal to do almost what kodak was sued for long ago.To force someone to buy a product if they buy or use the other is not legal. Especially since they are a convicted monopoly. If the trial continues this should most defenitly be in the evicence list! http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/90-1029.ZS . tml
HTTP/1.1 400
Actually, before Walmart started selling the Microtel PC's with Lindows preinstalled they were selling the same "bare bones" machines with no OS preinstalled. It really pissed off Microsoft too because they were thinking the same thing. Someone would buy a cheap $300 box at Walmart, come home and borrow Fred's copy of Windoze and have a fully functioning machine without all the licensing bullshit or the EULA.
"I know a genuine Panaphonics when I see it. And look, there's Magnetbox, and Sorny!"
Anyone consider the fallout from this when a few hundred Walmart shoppers rant about how Linux is a cheap rip-off of Windows? Lindows may end up being a huge propaganda loss for Linux.
If Lindows is not windows compatible, then what are users paying for? Why not just put Mandrake (or other desktop-friendly distrib)?
Lindows (tm)
"Our name sounds like Windows and starts with an 'L'. We are clever."
Software Wars
When Wal-Mart also sells OS-less PCs right next to the Lindows PCs? If you want to install an illegal copy of Windows you can just buy a box with nothing on it.
I'm sorry to reply to this at all, but one statement really leaves me hanging:
"...the greatest aphrodisiac that is on this earth - The Harry Potter Movie..."
Uh... say what? A movie without a single attractive female over the age of 12?
TANSTAAFL
the ability to run most Microsoft programs
This was very incorrect, as it probably wouldn't have been able to run most Microsoft programs (SQL server for starters).
More accurate would've been that Lindows is able to run a number of programs that were designed to run on the Microsoft Windows platform.
But I think (as someone else said) that the current text is far better and more accurate and not mentioning windows-programs is probably better.
If an average Joe blow of the street come to Wal-Mart and buy the Lindows box he will be expecting to run any of the shelf programs available at your local Best Buy or Future Shop. That is just not going to happen. So now we will have one very angry and disappointed user to deal with. Talking about bad first impression for LINUX.
But then again I might be wrong and most people will be happy with their purchase.
As I read the comments here on slashdot, I am forced to ask a few questions. First off, how many of you claiming that it doesn't run windows apps very well have actually tried to use lindows? I know a few people that have ponied up the USD99 to be lindows insiders, and while they have had widely varying experiences, it seems to run MS Office 2000 Pro just fine, as well as Lotus notes. While this may not seem like much, think about it this way--the target user for Lindows is the average non-gamer. This means those people at Walmart that want to be able to run email progs, write a few letters and possibly even do a few simple presentations. Gamers simply don't go to Walmart most of the time, and therefore will only purchase Lindows once its proven to play Quake 3 (or 4 or 5, whichever version happens to be around when compatibility for games finally takes off), or UT2003. Myself, if Lindows will run Adobe Photoshop, Illustrator, and Macromedia Dreamweaver and Fireworks, I will ditch windows like a bad case of the runs. My Point? If you haven't tried the preview release, don't be quite so quick to say it stinks. I know I'll probably get flamed for this post, but think about what you're saying before you claim it sucks. Do you really have any evidence? If not, then wait until you do before bashing it. You might eat those words later.
Things have dramatically changed: now the normal user wants to point and click and know nothing about filesystems, heck even the line between applications (code) and files (data) is blurred for the commoner nowadays. Also applications have changed: back then it was spreadsheets (Lotus 1-2-3) and word processors (Word Perfect, WordStar), now it is "the internet" (a.k.a. Outlook and Internet Explorer). The customer base is just completely different: actually it is less informed than it was back in the 3.11 days.
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
If you read the article or check Lindow's site you'll notice the part about they're Click 'N Run warehouse. With a $99/year membership you can get any software out of it you want. When you buy Lindows you get three free downloads to start.
.debs and install them yourself, (2) you can of course get the tools to make the software yourself from source, or (3) you can get it from the warehouse. Now why would you want to do that? Because it's "one click and you're up and running." No worry about configuration or install scripts. Considering this, I think Lindows is justified in charging for the software since they really are adding something of value (convenience) to the end user. Linux geeks can still install the software the old fashoned way too.
The whole Click 'N Run Warehouse confused me when I first read about it. $99 a year to download essentially GPLed applications? If you check the warehouse, you'll notice most of the applications there are the sort that you'll usually find included in any large distrobution. Everything from gcc to OpenOffice is there. Now why in the world would you pay $99 a year to access applications that are already free? Well, that was my question, so I emailed Lindows and they responded promptly saying that: (1) Lindows is a debian based distro, so you can download
Who said Freedom was Fair?
The basic move to sell pre-loaded Lindows machines was a faulty business decision in the first place. Linux is simply not ready as a desktop solution for the "average joe". You're inserting an OS with meager support services into a market dominated by 90% MS software sales. We all know that Windows emulation is not evolved enough to provide the smooth operability which an average computer user will require. This will cause a whiplash effect on Walmart. They probably have already begun to experience the incipient repercussive effects manifested through numerous complaints and support calls which probably prompted the modification of their sales pitch. As excited as every linux supporter is to see the OS start to dissiminate into the desktop market, it's simply not ready. The worst thing that can happen is to spread an immature "desktop" OS and destroy consumer confidence. Yes, we need consumer confidence (that's Mister Average Joe's confidence) in order to boost desktop sales. Otherwise, the 90% dominated MS software market will continue. Ok, I've gotten off on a rant, so I'll stop now:) Feel free to flame.
Check the license requirements on your Windows software. You may well find that you are *not licensed* to use it on anything but a Microsoft Windows operating system.
Government of the people, by corporate executives, for corporate profits.
RMS is going to be really pissed off. Someone
could be buying systems with Windows preloaded,
installing Linux, and having a fully functioning
system without the GNU label.
Uhm takin' this thang back ta Wal-Mart. Sheeit!
Probably the worse course of action Lindows has taken so far is ignoring the development community that has made Robertson's 1/2baked idea possible. I especially love the idea of repackaging OSS programs and charging for them. Great model guys, let me know when you will be auctioning off your equipment and office furniture.
'delivers the stability of UNIX with the ease of Windows and the ability to run most Microsoft programs.'
After reading that phrase, I ran some of the keywords through Google. The results verified that it wasn't deja vu, after all.
It makes me wonder whose attorneys objected most strongly, and I'm laughing like crazy at how ballsy these guys are at ripping off (or on?) established intellectual property.
Do people that buy PCs from walmart frequent this site?
If I need/want a PC. I'll buy it from anywhere that gives me what I want for the lowest price. If you want to pay more, have a blast :)
Course I buy dented cans of coffee too, so obviously I'm not worried about image when I shop ...
CBDTPA? what is it? how about a link?
reech bee-yond ur clip-0n
You know the technology well now, so you think it is the 'natural' way for things to work. It's not. If I want my MP3's in my 'Shared' folder, but also want them in my 'Music' folder - what do I do? Do I make duplicate copies of several gigs of files? That's stupid. What I want is for single copies of the files to be available from both locations. There's nothing wrong with 'folders' as an organizational metaphor, but as a rigid file system it blows goats.
With your "Documents -> Marketing -> Presentations -> BigAssClient -> VeryImportantProject" example, maybe I want the file to be accessible under my 'Resume Projects' folder, my 'Power Point Presentations' folder, my 'Recent' folder, etc. but have only one actual version of the file, so that I open it from one location, save changes, and the next time I open it from another location it has those changes since it's not a physically separate file. See some uses for that?
CBDTPA? what is it? how about a link?
CBDTPA stands for Consumer Broadband and Digital Television Protection Act, and is the formal version of the original SSSCA bill. The seemingly innocent name hides the horrible truth of the bill; it would require copy control devices in every digital device; from your computer to your camcorder to door locks on hotel rooms. The bill is authored by Senator Fritz Hollings from South Carolina, who receives a very large contribution each year from the major media companies like Disney, Viacom, and News Corp (Fox).
You can read more about this atrocious bill and ways to fight it at the EFF Action Alert site.
If this bill disgusts you, call your members of Congress today!
Your second example works too with symbolic links. However most people have a "way" of organizing stuff. They tend not to think in different organizational structures every time they access a computer. It's akin to people sorting they socks by colour. It's weird, but most people I know (not geeks) do have quite a good concept of what is in their "My Documents" (but not beyond...). They eiter have all files cluttered in one directory with huge filenames describing the content or they have folders classifying about anything. Most people classify...
Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
*sigh*
dude...if you're running OSX on your PMac, you're running darwin...so you can run 14 OSes.
although i suppose you could run darwin w/o the OSX wrapper...but why?
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
I think that walmart adding lindows to the computers they sell is one of the worst things that could happen to linux. Here's why:
1.The average person that would by a buy a walmart computer is not going to be very computer savvy. They probably wont know the difference between windows and linux. What happens when that person buys windows software and assumes that it will run on his or her new computer?
2.Tech support. Most computer repair techs are familiar with windows, but not that many would be comfortable working with linux if at all. If they buyer needs help with running widows, they cant just call thier local computer guy.
There is one good thing with this, we finnaly have a version of windows thats easy for anyone with some computer knowlege to install and use. i know mandrake and red hat are supposed to be easy also, they still require a bit of technical knowlege.
my $0.02
In America we are imprisoned by our fear of them.
err...correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't an emulator emulate (my english teacher would KILL me for that) one particular bit of hardware (in this context, at least) on a different bit of hardware by converting one set of machine-language instructions to a different machine language on the fly, ala VirtualPC (x86 on PPC)?
WINE seems to me to be more a sort of runtime or somesuch - it doesn't actually emulate an x86 processor or anything, it just gives Win apps the right APIs and time on the processor.
like i said though, i could be totally wrong. but how i love semantic hairsplitting.
Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. - Aldous Huxley
I cannot find a way to download the OS from the site without signing up for the $99 membership.
They are selling GPL software, are they not compelled to have a free download available?
how long will it be before computers start getting treated like cars?
As soon as using your computer recklessly can kill someone.
-Erik
As soon as using your computer recklessly can kill someone.
In this day and age, taking down a large corporation's mail server could probably put you in a hotter pot of water then a hit-and-run could; you could certainly face more fines from the former than the latter.
It seems to me that the removal of that statement is simply a CYA thing. It's pretty clear (to my feeble mind, at least) that they are running some version of Wine/Crossover and therefore alot of MS programs *will* run - those that won't may run later as updates are written and distributed.
The big thing here is Wal Mart facing off against Microsoft. Sam Walton is a very powerful man, he obviously isn't standing for Microsoft's bullying tactics - and is willing to take some major risks to prove it. How major these risks are is not a question I can answer. Wal Marts huge success as a company is not some stroke of cosmic luck; I feel like they must know what they are doing. When Joe Bob sees that he can have a PC for 299$, he may actually go and get one for the first time. We may be seeing the beginnings of the revolution that we have all wondered when, how and if it ever would or *could* happen. Let's cross our fingers.
-= jester =-
Well, AC, I'll not respond to your meaty bit of flamebait there. I'm talking about educating yourself to find out what you need before you go off and render any help I might be able to have useless because you don't know what you want. Perfect example. Them: "Uh, I want a new video card." Me: "Allrighty then, do you need AGP or PCI?" Them: "Uh... I have a laptop..." _You_ work in computer retail for a bit. See if you don't develop a case of cynical attitude. I never said these people don't walk away with me standing there laughing in the isle; more often than not I can piece together the little pieces they _do_ know and have them walk out happy, and usually a little more enlightened. Lastly, being geek through and through to the core, I don't have a car (public transportation is excellent where I live), and thus I tend to spend quite a bit more on my computer. No, not $20k worth, but a bit more than I probably should. Do I go rushing blindly off to buy whatever buzzword of the day? No, I study and read and question whether or not it will be useful to me. Would I put as much thought into the car I will eventually buy? Absolutely. There are buyers and there are consumers. Don't be a consumer.
Why do I M2 everything negatively?
If Lindows ships with the source included (or if they provide some other means to get it for the cost of distribution), then they have no obligation to make it available for free download. They can charge $1M for downloads if they like. Of course, people who bought Lindows can make it available for download, at whatever cost they like.
That being said, I have no idea whether Lindows includes the source or not.
What's scary here is that he pretty much has to be referring to Virginia Tech, formerly VPI, which has one of the better if not the best CS programs in the south.... Back in Charlottesville, I find most of the students have the computing capacity of the average officer worker plus some when they get there, and have mastered a little more (mathcad et al) before leaving.
I'm sure glad they cleared up that ambiguous full term by parenthetically including the unambiguous abbreviation.
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
From the article:
After that the users are encouraged to sign up to access the thousands of applications available in the warehouse for $99
Yup, all the stability of Linux with all the sense you are getting screwed we've come to appreciate from Windows. Excuse me, but paying $99 to have access to free software is just a little ridiculous. Basically seems like they are taking advantage of people who don't know any better. Nice business model, eh?
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
Absolutely not. An imprecise summary of the GPL rules --
1. Don't take credit for what you didn't do.
2. If you provide somebody a binary, you have to provide the source to them as well (if they ask) for a nominal fee (at most).
3. If you received software under the GPL, and you redistribute it, you must provide them the same rights and obligations you received.
Only the dead have seen the end of war.
Common misconception if I am not mistaken. You are allowed to sell GPL software all you want. However, you cannot stop people from redistributing it. So, if your friend buys Lindows, you can install it on as many computers as you want, legally under the GPL. Also, they are required to provide access to the GPL'd source.
Lindows may also employ proprietary parts that are not directly linked in with the GPL parts of the code, and Lindows is not required to release that freely or with source at all, assuming it isn't GPL'd.
Then again, I'm not a GPL expert.
This was last updated Date Updated 06/08/2002 01:32 PM so I'd call that pretty current information.
Note that this does not claim that Office will work -- it says "most compatible".
It's been pretty clear all along that this "Lindow$" deal has been a scam, from day one.
They want you to sign up and pay for support; they want you to pay to download software you could get elsewhere for nothing; they want you to pay...
And check this out:
Whoa!
Getting something for your money!
Well, at least they got Micro$oft beat there...
t_t_b
I'm on PJ's "enemies" list! Are you?
will run Certain Certified Microsoft Programs.
I agree that running as root is a Bad Thing(tm). However, the vast majority of people are still running Win9x so it's not a tremendous stretch.
I agree that Lindow's policies can alienate some users. However, the target market is composed of people who largely would not have ever tried Linux anyway. (Let em get thier feet wet!) So... getting Linux into thier hands will at least expose them to it and maybe garner a few more users for Linux. They will probably graduate from Lindows to a more mainstream Linux distro.
Not exposing these potential users to Linux is a You get Nothing from Nothing proposition. Exposing them to Linux will generate a larger userbase. It's guerilla marketing sort of but... maybe it'll have a long term positive effect. We already know it's gonna have a short term negative effect.
Bottom Line: Many users want to be spoonfed.
Codifex Maximus ~ In search of... a shorter sig.
The market is
1) People who don't know enough about computing to know that You Must Use Windows To Compute. Those people don't have Windoze software to load.
2) Those who know something about computing. I bought one Walmart box today. I'm loading Red Hat on one partition, and keeping Lindows for play. If it works, great. If not, I've got a inexpensive and useful computer.
In this day and age, taking down a large corporation's mail server could probably put you in a hotter pot of water then a hit-and-run could
This is ridiculous. First, anyone who can drive a car can assault and kill another person with that car very easily. Taking down the mail server of a corporation big enough that the damages you would do would outstrip murder or manslaughter is something that requires significant knowledge.
Secondly, in no way shape or form do monetary damages to a corporation compare to maiming or killing an innocent person. It doesn't matter how much money is involved, any resonable person can see that murder is a far serious offence than what amounts to corporate vandalism.
-Erik
Try, "Most Linux programs won't run on Windows, Microsoft must be dying." Actually they are, but that's beside the point. Lindows might just be enough for most people. When they get tired of it or it has problems, we can be sure that someone will be good enough to put Debian on it. Oh yeah, that will kill Micrsoft. Oh well.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
I think his point was that the punishment does not fir the crime. Yes, it is worse to mow someone down with a car, but it seems like you get in more trouble for hacking a computer. IIRC, there was a story not long ago about getting more jail time for killing a dog than a person by way of sentencing guidelines...
Murphy was an optimist.
fir = fit , sorry
I hate ergonomic keyboards.
Murphy was an optimist.
You *are* kidding, right? You must be a troll. Ah well, I'll bite.
There have been two times (count `em), when Apple had to stop supporting old hardware. First, when they went from 68K to PPC. Even with emulation, Apple had to cut the cord some time. Mac OS 8.1 was the last that ran on 68K hardware. And that wasn't too long ago. Then we had the Mac OS 9 version. Apple released Mac OS X, which runs on hardware that's 3 years old. They did the best they could, but you need a bit of power to play the graphics games that OS X does.
Except for Linux, I can't think of many OSes that have as good of sustainability on older hardware than Mac OS.
Ever heard of shortcuts? Although they are not quite the same as symbolic links, they are in some ways. Why can't you just put the mp3s in your shared folder and put shortcuts to them in your MP3 folder. WinAmp at least recognizes them as if they were mp3s, don't know about other MP3 players. I don't share, so forgive me if this doesn't work.
I just ordered 2 of the $299 Lindows systems for work. Should be here within 2 weeks. Anyone else already have em?
When Apple's $300 OSX box comes out, I'll be first in line to buy one. Until then, I'm afraid JQP is stuck with commodity HW and free SW. Guess he'll survive somehow.
It's not "exciting new Linux based operating system"! It should have been "exciting GNU/Linux beased operating system!"
Macindowsnix to come out!
There's no place like ~/
Lindows' PR rep Cheryl Schwarzman says that Walmart.com PC buyers are entitled to download three (GPLed, mind you) applications for free from the Click-N-Run Warehouse. "After that the users are encouraged to sign up to access the thousands of applications available in the warehouse for $99." Schwarzman adds that with more than 1,300 applications in the warehouse, that comes to less than 8 cents per application.
.00000000000000001 x 10 ^20th cents per web page.
Next, you will have AOL marketing their internet service as only
The point is that a major company is vending computers (aside from those in China with Red Flag) with a Linux variant preinstalled for the masses. Even if people say, 'screw this lindows shit" and install Windows, the name is getting out there. Five years ago I didn't know a thing about AMD, but now I run a Duron in my main box. You don't start at the top.
In SOVIET RUSSIA... erm...NSA AMERICA, the Internet logs onto YOU!
I saw that coming...compatibility with Windows apps (especially the big ones like MS Office) is nearly impossible to maintain -- M$ always uses undocumented extensions, both allowing it access to functionality that their competitors on Windows must do without, and preventing their programs from running on anything but the Real Windows (tm). I don't think any company would risk being sued to death because they claimed compatibility and M$ broke it...
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Windows doesn't even run Microsoft products.
"Where is the free version of the LindowsOS Distro? (Score:3, Troll)"
I think this is the first time I have ever seen Score:3, Troll in my life. If this had been a serious attempt at trolling my hat would be off to you.
Your third point addresses the issue. No, lindows does not have to give you the binaries for free, but I believe that anyone who has the binaries CAN redistribute them for free, provided they also make source code and GPL license terms available.
That's funny... as a programmer, I have a pretty cynical attitude of people who work in computer retail, because you would really hope they know something about what they are selling, but usually they have no idea what they are talking about.
On the other hand, I don't expect everyone who owns or wants to own a computer to have to study up on the difference between AGP and PCI... I'm happy if they know the difference between "memory" and "hard disk". I mean, really, I own a car, but if I had to replace something in it, I would be just as clueless as those people ordering a video card for their laptop. Is that terrible?
I NEED a car for everyday life, because I live in suburban California, and this state was pretty much designed to be used with a car. But that's where the relationship with my car ends. On the other hand, I know a good deal about computers and use them constantly. I know the difference between volatile and persistant storage, AGP and PCI, L1 and L2 cache. Not because that I need to know these things for my job, but because that's what my interest is in. It's my job because it's my interest. I have only so much time to spend learning about things, and space in my brain to store it all, and I don't want to waste that learning about cars, which do not interest me at all. I imagine most people have the same attitude towards computers. Why shouldn't they? It's called "specialization" and has been around since the Industrial Age.
I do not expect a student who wants to play Dungeon Siege and write a paper with his computer to know or care about these things. But he may need a better video card for DS to be playable. I think it's up to you, the retail personnel, to help them figure out what they need. If you help them with that, then you are a good employee, better than most of the people out there at Fry's or Best Buy who have a one-track mind ("Extended Service Warranty... Extended Service Warranty...").
-If
More On Topic-er Postscript:
I thought "Lindows" was a pretty funny name when I first heard about it - but the more I hear about this Wal-Mart/Lindows thing, the more I feel like it's a sleezy marketing gimmick. Even if the damn thing runs 95% of all windows binaries, I think it's not right to call it "Lindows," as most consumers (who pay the bills for everyone, by-the-way) would probably not catch the difference between Lindows and Windows, even if you disclaim it to high heaven. I would be concerned with Linux getting a bad reputation once people find that they got something other than they were expecting.
Run a pencil-and-paper RPG campaign with your far-off friends: Gametable!
I'm $o fucking $ick of people writing Micro$oft and Window$. If you ba$tard$ $tart writing lindow$ too I think I'll be $ick.
I think people are missing my point. You are 100% correct ... but I don't expect someone to come in and know the difference between PCI, AGP, USB, IEEE1394, ad naseum.
What I do expect is for them to not come blindly groping in and expect me to telepathically extract vital data (sometimes the question "do you have a Windows machine or a Macintosh" is too much) from them.
Back to the car: when you take your car in, you can tell the mechanic at least the following: the make, model, year, last time you had an oil change. All I want from my customers is the computational equivalent to this (make, cpu speed, number of devices on the ide chain. It's a pain in the ass to sell an internal FOO to someone only to find out later they have no more FOO slots.). As far as I'm concerned, they don't need to live and breathe this info; they can simply bring me the manual and I can figure things out from there.
*shrug* Either I expect too much from people who are in a college town (and most of them are enrolled in this college), or I pay too much attention to details when I shop.
(yeah yeah mods, blow my karma of 4 away with a -1 offtopic *sigh*)
Why do I M2 everything negatively?
I can redistribute GPL'd software, still under the GPL, with a note attached (and credited to me, not the original authors), asking the recipient to please plant tulips. I cannot require them to do so. As long as the language is obviously a request, and is not confused with a term of the license, I am in compliance with the GPL. If my tulip request starts to look like a licensing term, then I may run afoul of the GPL in a hurry.
It's an odd strategy, but it may be legal.
BTW, I am not a lawyer, and have not consulted with one. Etc.
Suspecting that many of the Wal-Martites who buy computers do so in order to play video games, I wonder what's going to happen when they bring one home from the games department of Wal-Mart and find out it won't run on their Wal-Mart computer. "Where DID I put Ralph Nader's phone number?" One would expect Lindows to run Windows games at some point, I don't know how far down the road, but Mandrake certainly won't. Or has WINE improved to that point? Does this all seem all too complicated for a mortal mind to comprehend?
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
It's a general design decision. Should a file be known to the OS by it's location on a physical disc? Or should it just have some unique identifier which isn't disc-specific?
It seems clear that if you planned it out ahead of time, you wouldn't choose to make the physical location of the file its unique identifier. That approach doesn't offer any advantages I can think of, other than it was easy to build at the time.
What happens to shortcuts when you delete the original file? The shortcut doesn't know about the event and continues to point somewhere useless. Same if you move the file. That doesn't make much sense from a user perspective. From a conceptual perspective, you pointed the shortcut to a FILE, not to a disc address. I don't know what happens to symbolic links, do they handle this case any better?
There have been two times (count `em), when Apple had to stop supporting old hardware.
Make that five. 5.something was the last to run on the Fat Mac (512 KB of RAM). 7.5.5 was the last to run on black-and-white 68000 machines, 68020 machines, and 68030 machines without the latest version of soldered-on ROM chips (i.e. "32-bit dirty" ROMs). 7.6.1 was the last to run on 68030 machines. Then you mentioned 8.1 and 9.x (last for 68040 and pre-G3 respectively).
Except for Linux, I can't think of many OSes that have as good of sustainability on older hardware than Mac OS.
What about the BSDs? What about MS-DOS (for classic games)?
Will I retire or break 10K?
You may well find that you are *not licensed* to use it on anything but a Microsoft Windows operating system.
You assume that Microsoft EULAs are completely enforceable. Don't be so sure of that. To be enforceable, a contract must be legal, and as alienw mentioned, monopolistic product tying isn't. In addition, a contract must require both parties to give something up, such as money or rights. (In legalese, this is called "consideration.") In the United States, a EULA doesn't give the user any rights that 17 USC 117 and other applicable law doesn't already give the user.
Where's the beef? In particular, where's the consideration that would validate an agreement forbidding a user from using a Microsoft Windows application with LindowsOS or any other Wine distribution?
Will I retire or break 10K?
What ever happened with Lindows and their source code?
I seem to recall discussions that they hadn't released GPL covered sourcecode because they were "still in beta testing". It doesn't matter weather that claim was legitamate or not because now they are clearly distribiting commercial executables. Is the source included or available?
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
I mean this pc setup is perfect for "cousin billy bob" from the trailor next door to bring his 3|337 copy of WinXP Pro over. I doubt Lindows would convert many to linux, yet if it does do any good, it would probably be by awarding recognition to linux, bringing it into the limelight for what it truly is, a low-cost (or free) powerful quality operating system. For most people, o.s != religion. Most don't care if they use IE or Mozilla, or Linux or Windows so long as they can do basic tasks. While you can do those in both operating systems, you have to practically force it upon people for them to realize.
I'd say that's why M$ has done well. Before switching to linux, it was a vague concept in my mind. I am not really impressed by lindows, but I hope it does well so linux as a whole gets more attention. Truthfully, I don't know if linux is ready for mainstream. I'd like it to be, but I would hate it if everybody struggled(that brings me to another point, mandatory programming lessons! people should have some basic understanding of whats under the hood)
Why would anyone pay $99 for a Linux distro (esp. one that's in beta) when for $20 to $50 they could buy RedHat, which is very user-friendly, bundled with a book on how to use it, or just d/l it off the net at no cost? If they bought a PC with Lindows installed, why would they pay $99 to access a library of apps that are free for downloading elsewhere? Can't people figure out that what Lindows is offering, they can get elsewhere for free?
If people want MS Windows compatibility, why wouldn't they take their $99 and spend a bit more to buy Windows?
I just don't get it.
Add to that Michael Robertson's comments about Linux developers eating their young by demanding to see Lindows source code, and the graphics on Lindow's "Click-N-Run Warehouse Showroom" web page with KDE apps with X's through prices - $339 for a word processor? No, it's free! - and my skeptical assessment is that Lindows is using Microsoft marketing tactics, and Lindows probably won't be around for long.
Your head only explodes if you are also a scanner. Obviously, you aren't.
So, pointing out my entire argument in the subject line triggers some lame-assed "lameness filter?" Sometimes what is in the subject line is all that needs to be said, did anybody at /. think about that?
Republicans are idiots.
...which would shoot down any non-MS programs, too.
Yeah, yeah, MS are evil. But there is far more packaged software development effort for Windows than any other platform. That's been the case for ten years. This effort has produced the most innovative and diverse set of independently developed packaged software products, not to mention MS's own estimable efforts.
It's a network effect, people! Everyone runs Windows, therefore everyone develops first/only for Windows, therefore everyone wants to run Windows. I would be pissed, too, if I had a Mac that had no ability to efficiently run all that software.
I realize I'm exaggerating a bit here. If you're a geek, then Linux is the place where you find the software you most desire. But for the mainstream that's not at all the case, not even close. It's normal and healthy to want to run all the software at CompUSA!
An easy way to fix that would be to say "runs programs created for the top-selling desktop system, that starts with an W, ends with an S, and has an INDO and W somewhere in between!"
[insert witty comment here]