Inside the Cult of TiVo

StudMuffin writes: "A group of TiVo enthusiasts from over at the TiVo Community Forum recently got together. About 100 people showed up to roast weenies and swap TiVo hacks and screen names. This is just plain cool, if you ask me. TiVo rocks. Of interest, however, was the representation of the TiVo company and the fact that they didn't fight to stop hacking their product. Does this relationship between hi-tech companies and hackers act as a model of how this relationship can work? TiVo even seems tolerant of really hardcore hacks as discussed on /. in the past."

Comments

TiVo won't stop hacking . . .

[vegetablespork]

. . . until it costs them some money or they get DMCA'd. They have been playing it cool so far, but that'll turn on a dime once the money starts leaving.

Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . .

[Ageless Stranger]

Tivo has stopped hacking in the past. Any hack that gets lets you use outside channel data is stopped by Tivo. Also, I believe they tried to stop a hack that allowed you to extract the mpeg video from a tivo.

Other than those examples though, Tivo has been extremely tolerant of hacks.

Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . .

[Otto]

Err.. that hasn't happened. They (and we) have discouraged such hacks, but Tivo's taken no real action to stop them from occuring.

Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . .

[Ageless Stranger]

Well if this is the Otto from the Tivo community board, I'm going to shut up now :)

Re:TiVo won't stop hacking . . .

[WNight]

It doesn't take much to be tolerant of something that doesn't bother you in the slightest... (It's easy to support free speech when you like it, but much harder when you disagree strongly with it.)

I'd be a lot more impressed in TiVo accepted listings hacks and such and simply tried to compete on ease of use and features.

I don't think they should have any right to dictate what people do with their product, even if they don't like it.

They also burned a few bridges by lying about the ability to use a TiVo (the old ones claimed this on the box) without the service. They forced an upgrade on everyone and it basically made the boxes without service unusable. Rather than rolling out an immediate fix for their "mistake" they promised to roll it into the next release, a few months away. Their "helpful net representative" then flamed a few people for being useless deadbeats for being unwilling to pay a measly $10 (what are you, on welfare?!?) when they were unhappy at his suggested fix - buy service.

(I'm quite well off, with two incomes and no kids, and I spend a lot on tech, but I wouldn't want to be trapped into anything that I have to pay a monthly fee for if I could avoid it. I don't consider myself cheap, I just don't want to be over a barrel when the only provider of a service decides to suddenly jack up the price.)

They show some enlightened self interest, but no real care for the customers. (Not much different than many other companies.)

Honey is better than vinegar

[jobugeek]

Maybe Tivo realizes that endless fighting against geeks isn't in their best interest and who knows, someone may come up with features they hadn't thought of. Cheap R&D indeed.

Re:Honey is better than vinegar

[macdaddy357]

Maybe the people at Tivo still get it that crossing your paying customers will cost you your paying customers, so they do not harass the hackers. Besides, If I buy a Tivo, it's my personal property. I have the right to use it as I see fit, no matter what the MPAA or television networks say. By the way, If I share my recordings of free broadcast TV how is that stealing?

Re:Honey is better than vinegar

[jcoleman]

Amen. Free broadcast TV. The airwaves belong to the people. They do not belong to the braodcasters. If they can make money from their use of them, then so be it. If they can't, then too bad.

Legislation to ensure their profits from the airwaves goes against everything the FCC stands for.

Re:Honey is better than vinegar

[PunchMonkey]

By the way, If I share my recordings of free broadcast TV how is that stealing?

Not so much stealing as illegal distribution. You don't have the rights to redistribute a television show. Just like you don't have the rights to record songs of the radio and redistribute them.

But if asked, just tell them you're making offsite backups of your important data.

Re:Honey is better than vinegar

[Anonymous Coward]

I love my Tivo but I cancelled service. It's too bad that Tivo is hooked up with a scumbag organization such as DirecTv. DirecTv has taken the other side of this tactic by suing their users without showing their are pirating/hacking their signal. They are sending out letters saying they can sue you for tens or hundereds of thousands but will settle for less than it will cost you to fight them. Innocent people are actually settling. They suck.
I wish Echostar and Tivo worked together. I don't like the Dish PVR 501 as much as the Tivo but I despise Directv so much I bought a 501.

http://slashdot.org/articles/01/01/25/1343218.sh tm l
http://www.legal-rights.org/DTVBOX.html

Re:Honey is better than vinegar

[Tyger]

The thing is, they themselves are geeks. I wrote one of the main utilities used to upgrade TiVos, and released a new version of it at this BBQ. I asked one of the TiVo employees what they thought about it, and the response I got was that many of the TiVo engineers use it themselves, since they don't have any tools like it. Another one stated that it is giving them sales. Of course, they can't officially condone it since TiVo is not a consumer upgradable device, but they do it themselves.

TiVo and Linux, two peas in a pod

[PhysicsGenius]

Consider the similarities:

• Both groups like to take control of the technology in their lives
• TiVo runs Linux
• Both groups enjoy tinkering with/hacking hardware and software
• TiVo and Linux are both really cool concepts and are own by great companies
• TiVo allows one to steal content by skipping ads
• Linux allows one to steal content via P2P programs

Re:TiVo and Linux, two peas in a pod

[Anonymous Coward]

"TiVo and Linux are both really cool concepts and are own by great companies "

Linux isn't owned by a company. It's under GPL.

"Linux allows one to steal content via P2P programs "

The vast majority of p2p filesharing programs are for Windows.

Do your research in the future, wiseguy.

A Fine Balance

[4of12]

It's a fine balance.

I know that TiVO was more or less invented by hackers that can sympathize with people wanting to fiddle with hardware to do more than what could be convenient marketed for $x99.99 at Best Buy.

I've heard that some of them hang on different boards, dispelling rumours, clarifying what are stupid ways to backup your TiVo, etc.

Meanwhile, I know that some in the hacker community (Andrew Tridgell?) deliberately withdrew an early version of code he had that could crack the video streaming format filesystem on the TiVo's. I think that such decoding of video, especially combined with Ethernet access to the device, would have caused the Powers That Be to get riled up in a hurry (if TiVo hackers started to trade TV and movies the same way that Napster users were trading songs).

I've got two TiVo's and I upgraded them to use larger 100 GB IDE drives. It's great.

Wonderful Tool

[WellHungYungWun]

Tivo is a wonderful tool for optimizing the time you spend watching TV. I miss a lot of shows that I would like to watch, and I am happy to see a product out their to help the non banker hours peeps get the most out of their 90 dollar a month cable bill. Now, if only we could come up with a Linux tool to do record TV with tv in, and have a similiar recording engine comparable to Tivo. I would be willing to donate something to that project, cuz monthly fees suck. My .02

Re:Wonderful Tool

[jargoone]

TiVo: great interface, looks like a regular component, has hardware to do what you need, is quiet, cheap monthly and reasonable lifetime fee.

Linux tool: clunky haX0r3d interface, driver bullshit, noisy, honkin, ground-loop havin beige box.

I'll keep the TiVo, thanks.

Re:Wonderful Tool

[WellHungYungWun]

I agree with you to an extent, but "what if" their was a free tool. You wouldn't even try it? It sounds kind of obtuse.

Re:Wonderful Tool

[will_die]

So the Tivo box I have with the shell interface and everything is not a Linux box??

Re:Wonderful Tool

[derek_i]

reasonable lifetime fee

I disagree. The "lifetime fee" is the lifetime of the unit. I purchased one of the first units with the "lifetime subscription". I recently went to order a new box because I got sick of reinstalling TiVOnet after every upgrade (fixed in 3.0 finally). I was told I would have to pay another "lifetime" fee, so I would have enough TiVO for two lifetimes appearantly.

I'm not saying this is unfair, but I think the company should better clarify "lifetime" to people buying the machines.

Re:Wonderful Tool

[stevel]

I'm not saying this is unfair, but I think the company should better clarify "lifetime" to people buying the machines.

Um, they state it as clearly as I think they can. If you click on the link for Product Lifetime under "Buy TiVo" on the tivo.com site, you see:

A product lifetime subscription to the TiVo service covers the life of the recorder or receiver you buy - not the life of the subscriber. The product lifetime subscription accompanies the product in case of ownership transfer. The subscription remains in effect even if you upgrade your recorder, for example, to increase storage capacity (please contact an authorized dealer or the manufacturer) or if the recorder needs to be repaired or replaced due to a malfunction (see manufacturer warranty details).

Because a product lifetime subscription is linked to a particular recorder, it cannot be transferred to any other recorder (unless the recorder is replaced due to a malfunction covered by the manufacturer's warranty). Each recorder purchased requires its own service subscription and activation.

Of course, hardware products don't last forever and their lifespan will vary. TiVo makes no representations or warranties as to the expected lifetime of the product aside from the manufacturer's warranty.

The policy wasn't always this clear, which is why TiVo allows a one-time transfer of a lifetime sub that was activated prior to (I think) January 31, 2000, when they clarified the description.

Re:Wonderful Tool

[ncc74656]

TiVo: great interface, looks like a regular component, has hardware to do what you need, is quiet, cheap monthly and reasonable lifetime fee.

Linux tool: clunky haX0r3d interface, driver bullshit, noisy, honkin, ground-loop havin beige box.

How do you explain this Linux counter entry, then?

Re:Wonderful Tool

[derek_i]

This is good news to me since I signed up before 2000, when the concept was presented as my lifetime. I didn't realize that they had clarified it so well. I hope this info is on the packaging for people who don't always research the web before making a purchase.

When it is clear that you are paying for the lifetime of the unit, the fee is lumped into the price of the unit and I can sit back and say "is it worth $x to me?". Then you don't feel bad when you are told to pay another fee for the next box.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Maybe now I will upgrade...

It has been tested..

[pigeon]

On the site:
"The installation is not that hard, and it has been wife tested..."

Re:It has been tested..

[Anonymous Coward]

how is that funny. it's sexist and demeaning to women.

good grief.

Re:It has been tested..

[RinkRat]

No joke. I wrote a story about getting a Tivo in the house and then trying to get rid of it, against the protests of my wife (both ways, mind you).

That just doesn't happen. I'm always hauling home electronics that drive her nuts...

"Look honey! It's called X-10 and I can turn any light in the house on and off with this remote... What? Well, sure, replacing all those switches in the house did cost a little, but look - a remote! No, you can't just switch it off, the remote won't work anymore... Now, hon, put down the gun..."

She loved the Tivo however. So did I. So it had to go...

Re:It has been tested..

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't see that as funny you either don't know many women, have been beaten down by a ballbuster, or are a ballbuster yourself. If women had run the world, we would still be in caves if we had even survived. They wouldn't have let us have stupid gadgets like fire and the wheel.

Tivo has been extremely generous...

[Latent IT]

Not only does Tivo have a model relationship with hackers, but this is despite the fact that hackers do sometimes cost them money. How? I'll explain:

It's not that the people who hack (finally, proper usage of the word) their Tivo to get more space are competing with any upgrade plan of Tivo's, because they don't have one. But what happens frequently is this - when you're upgrading the disks, if you're smart, you make a backup. The upgrade then goes successfully, and you've swapped out 30 hours of space on a single drive, to say, 120 hours of space on two drives. Then a software upgrade comes along, of which Tivo has had several. Then one of your disks may fail, programs start skipping, or the Tivo starts freezing. So you go back to backup.

You have to download the software again.

I'm sure I'll get flamed to hell and back, but Tivo has a deal with UUnet (though they may have gone out of business, or bought?) to provide local POP's for Tivo's to dial into. Tivo then pays for the time you use. Program data is tiny. Software updates, (over mostly 33.6) is a long time, and costs them money. But to my experience, and yeah, this happened to me, they've been nothing but agreeable, and I had to download 2.5 actually 3 times - once for the actual upgrade, once for the situation above, and uh... the third time because I screwed up, I admit it. I even called tech support, because my machine didn't want to upgrade the third time, and they actually re-flagged me for download, and told me to get it right this time. =)

Re:Tivo has been extremely generous...

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo stopped supporting an 800 number for software updates and guide downloads.

I saw someone complain that their phone bill was in the hundreds because they had to call a non-local number.

Re:Tivo has been extremely generous...

[Tyger]

It's not that the people who hack (finally, proper usage of the word) their Tivo to get more space...

I am going to have to disagree with you on the proper use thing. That is like saying script kiddies are cracking system security. They are not, they have tools to do it for them. The people who made the tools are the ones hacking (Or cracking).

I happen to be one that makes the tools. I have written one of the most commonly used TiVo upgrade tools (Not the most common though, at least not yet). I figured out what I needed to do to backup just the needed data from TiVo's special filesystem/database. I figured out what I needed to do to add more directly. And I wrote code to do it.

What most everybody else does (Including TiVo engineers w/ their own TiVos, so I hear) is just follow a set of instructions, run code by people like me, and stick their drives in their TiVo. They often (But not always) have no or little understanding of what is going on. Therefore I would argue that describing someone upgrading their drives in modern times is not hacking. Hell, you can even buy pre-configured drives that you just pop in your TiVo. It is no more hacking than adding a new drive to your computer, in that case.

Stealing? Oh, really?

[Black Aardvark House]

TiVo allows one to steal content by skipping ads

So you're implying I steal television airtime if I go take a bathroom constitutional or head off to the fridge for a snack? I hardly think it's stealing, just a convenience that TiVo users enjoy by skipping ads.

And what about channel surfing?

Also consider that there are more ads on TV now than ever before, and a lot of ads on cable channels that I've already paid for every month!

I pay for my TV in other ways. I don't think is "stealing".

TiVo Interested in MFS Tools 2.0

[aligas]

According to Tiger, who wrote the MFS Tools application that is used to add/expand drives, most of his handouts for the new version went to TiVo employees and engineers.

Speaking of MFS Tools 2.0, you can do all sorts of nifty adds and expansions with it - including adding and expanding the A Drive on Series2 units.

More on MFS Tools 2.0 here.

Re:TiVo Interested in MFS Tools 2.0

[Tyger]

I never said most. I brought 25 CDs (too few in hindsight) and TiVo employees ended up with 5-10 of them.

They do oppose some hacks

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo was pretty vocal about not supporting the hack that allowed you to extract video from the TiVo. They asked Dave Bott, the guy that runs tivocommunity.com, not to allow talk about it. The new Series 2 TiVos have been changed so that you can't make hacks (like TiVoweb, telnet access and FTP) that are persistant across reboots.

They are miles above most companies, but they still are not 100% hacker friendly.

tk

Re:They do oppose some hacks

[tube013]

I believe if you look back into the history of this, You will find that Dave Bott says he was not asked or pressured by tivo to curb the talking of extraction, It is his board, and he (rightfully so) didn't want to get caught in the middle of a dmca's murky waters.

Re:They do oppose some hacks

[Otto]

The new Series 2 TiVos have been changed so that you can't make hacks (like TiVoweb, telnet access and FTP) that are persistant across reboots.

So were the D-Tivo's, at one time. It got hacked anyway. Eventually, the Series 2 boxes will be hacked in the same way.

Re:They do oppose some hacks

[vanguard]

The new Series 2 TiVos have been changed so that you can't make hacks (like TiVoweb, telnet access and FTP) that are persistant across reboots.

This doesn't get enough attention. All the Tivo kool-aid drinkers praise the company for letting them hack at the boxes while the company turns around and tries to remove the ability to do so.

I have a series II and I've become really bummed about the inability to hack at the machine. It's a nice appliance but it was all the hacks that inspired me to buy it.

Vanguard

Re:They do oppose some hacks

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

Hey ReplayTV4K is still hackable but not quite like it would be if it were running linux. It isn't clear if the update that is shipping with the 4500 series will reduce hackability - but it does look pretty sure that we will still be able to do live network video extraction and playback to and from a PC.

Tivo is not like other companies

[jsager]

Tivo uses Linux as its platform and builds a product that, while extremely useful, is really just a gadget.

Tivo, therefore, was founded by hackers, or at least hackers at heart. Of course they will be tolerant of their brethren. I doubt that companies not founded by hackers will ever be so forgiving.

Jon.

Re:Tivo is not like other companies

[WNight]

For them to really be tolerant, they'd have to have that attitude when it might lose them a few subscribers. They've cracked down on people who have looked at uploading alternate listings.

It's just a little bit of enlightened self interest - hacked have to buy a unit to fiddle with. But get anywhere near being self sufficient, or competing with them and the shit hits the fan.

Very much a model of how it should be done.

[pauldy]

The amount of people out there who have the technical know how to hack these things to a point of costing Tivo money is very very small in proportion to the amount of people who own the product. Given this why would they focus their energies on suppressing these hacks when they could focus on improving and selling more of their products.

If Dish Network spent money like this instead of on stings, lobbying and developing ecms don't you think they would have a better service to show for it. By that I mean from a consumer point of view and not an investors.

Re:Very much a model of how it should be done.

[Orangedog_on_crack]

I wonder if Tivo has tried to recruit any of the people that have developed any of the more popular hacks, be they "legal" or not. If I were running a company and found someone who had the skill to come up with good hacks on the hardware that I was manufacturing, I would want them on the payroll.

Re:Very much a model of how it should be done.

[maroberts]

who had the skill to come up with good hacks on the hardware that I was manufacturing, I would want them on the payroll.

Why pay them when you can get the hacks for free!

Re:Very much a model of how it should be done.

[Dave Muench]

They have. If I lived on the west coast, I probably would of taken them up on it too. I don't know if anyone else has been approached and gone to work for them though.

- cc

Re:Very much a model of how it should be done.

[Tyger]

As one such person, I have never been recruited by them. In fact, I have tried to get a job with them a couple times, and both times have been when they had a hiring freeze.

Re:Very much a model of how it should be done.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand that at all. Given the thousands and thousands of minidish style systems, I'd say that a far smaller percentage of them know anything about hacking the product. The difference is the installed base is large. So the few people that have the know-how, the product, and the distribution can sell modifications to others.

As of today, there just aren't enough TiVo owners to let someone make serious cash off them. But if there's 2 million TiVos instead of a few hundred thousand, then we'll all be seeing new spam mails for !!$20 for TIVO HACK NO MORE PAY!! instead of just for reprogrammed dish cards.

Once you hit that mass, and once there are folks out there actively selling modifications that the company feels is theft of service (rather than the few doing it for themselves), the company will be forced to crack down.

Re:Very much a model of how it should be done.

[pauldy]

Now if this is the case then obviously you should simply call the authorities when you see such an advertisement and leave it at that. Paying someone 10 bucks an hour to surf and find these for everyone they find that gets prosecuted give them a 50-dollar bonus. Don't spend hundreds of development hours that will cost you many many times over to try and stop them and still be about as successful as the one guy browsing the web for pirated cards. It's trying to prove you are the big guy on the playground when you aren't as big as you think that gets a lot of these companies into these pissing matches and the only one who gets hurt are the customers who are legitimately paying for the service.

Very very cool

[Anonymous Coward]

but you can imagine that the networks would be up in arms over such a convention, what with all the potentiality of illegal tv show swapping.

Wouldn't this be a neat extension of sneaker net? You record a show some guy in canada doesn't get, and he records a show you dont get, you meet at this convention, and swap tivos.

Ethernet

[Ibjr]

>especially combined with Ethernet access to >the device, would have caused the >Powers That Be to get riled up in a hurry Like this?

I think its a great thing.

[Mysticalfruit]

I'm not sure what the internal dynamic of tivo is, but either way I think its cool that they've just turned a blind eye towards the whole thing.

Though I think a couple of things have to be put into context here.

As far as Tivo is concerned, they're not losing out in any way. If someone goes out and buys a tivo with the intent of putting a 120gb drive in it, their stilling getting the inital payout of 300 bucks.

Plus I think by turning a blind eye, they've allowed a "cult of tivo" to grow by getting the reputation of building heavily modifyable units.

I just hope tivo doesn't forsake their userbase in the name of profits...

Re:I think its a great thing.

[ncc74656]

As far as Tivo is concerned, they're not losing out in any way. If someone goes out and buys a tivo with the intent of putting a 120gb drive in it, their stilling getting the inital payout of 300 bucks.

Those of us who've added Ethernet to our TiVos could even be said to have done them a little favor. A TiVo that pulls its data through its owner's cable-modem or DSL connection is a TiVo that isn't using a UUnet dialup. That has to have TiVo at least a little money, especially when upgrades get pushed out.

Now I just need to reinstall TivoWeb so that I can see what's saved on it again. 3.0's Ethernet support is slicker than all-get-out...as long as you have a DHCP server, it just works. If the upgrade hadn't killed telnet access to my TiVo, I wouldn't have had to open the box at all after the upgrade (other than to make a backup of the new software).

Hackers are salesman

[samjam]

Hackers are not only unpaid support guys for friends and relations, they are also salesmen.

Let the hackers do what they want (and they can't really be stopped, can they), and more will buy the tivo and preach tivo-ism to the untechnical masses who will never hack to the full degree, most will give up after a month and just use it normally.

Sam

A Question to any TiVo users?

[microTodd]

I've been looking for a birthday present for my Grandma and this seems like a good idea. Currently she has five VCRs, each with its own VCRplus and it never works right. It seems like a TiVo system can solve her TV dilemnas.

The problem is, she is the most technically illiterate person in the entire universe. Is TiVo a system only for hardcore electronics geeks and computer hackers? Or can the average Joe use it with no problems?

TIA....

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tivo is very simple to use. Just run through the on screen schedule and hit the record button. Pick if you want it once or forever (setup a season pass) and you are done.

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[creep]

Two of my brothers, two step-brothers, and my best friend have all learned to use my TiVo just by watching someone else do it. None of them are technically savvy. If all she wants is a device that will record her shows for her, a PVR is definitely the way to go, and TiVo is pretty easy to use...

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[Enry]

No problems. You may want to be there to get everything set up and installed (it'll take a few hours to do), but once that's done, it's as easy to use as a VCR. Heck, easier.

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[Kazymyr]

The TiVo can be as hard or as easy as you want it to be. If all you do is skim the surface, you'll find that the TiVo user interface was _specifically_ made for those people whose VCRs still flash 12:00. In other words, it's very easy to make work as a "replacement VCR" and much more. If you want to get into the technical details, it can get pretty complicated, but you're not required or even encouraged to do so for day-to-day operation.

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[will_die]

The tivo is far easier, and nicers the only information you need to know are your zip code, area code, if you have cable/antenna/satellite, and the name of the programs you want to record. The only problem your grandma may have is if she is using the 5 VCRs to record programs at the same it. Tivo only allows recording on one program at a time, however while it is recording you can watch any of the programs previously recorded.

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[Sloppy]

Currently she has five VCRs, each with its own VCRplus and it never works right. It seems like a TiVo system can solve her TV dilemnas.

Tivo is considerably easier to use than a VCR.

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[OYAHHH]

Dude,

Don't walk, run down to your local TIVO dealer and get this lady one of these boxes.

If she can use VCRPlus! on 5 different VCRs she can certainly use TIVO.

You will be her hero.

On the upside, she's gonna supply you with massive amounts of baked goods for getting her a TIVO.

On the downside, too bad you're not doing this for the cute blond a couple of doors down.

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[Darkstar9969]

My 60 year old mother uses my old series 1 standalone (I upgraded and hacked my new DirecTiVo to 108 hours of record time) My mother is a very intelligent person BUT she is a technological idiot! If it has electricity running through it she has issues using it.

That being said I hooked up the TiVo for her and gave her a quick tour of what the TiVo button does, how to play recorded shows and how to add Season Passes and left her to ask questions as she ran into problems. Ya know what? She DIDN'T! All I hear now is how happy she is that she can watch her Lifetime shows, network "chick" shows, and whatever else she wants and I don't have to answer questions like "will Providence fit on this VHS tape" ever again.

God Bless TiVo!!!

Just my $.02

Re:A Question to any TiVo users?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you can teach your Grandma how to use it, then she should be okay.

I live too far from home to hold my Mom's hand, and she couldn't deal. It turned out to be the worst Christmas present ever. I had my brother install it for her and set it up, and she was just freaked out by it. She simply cannot deal with technology and having what seemed like a computer changing channels on her got her incredibly frustrated and upset to the point of crying. It made her feel stupid.

So, if you can't help your Grandma out, I don't suggest getting one for her. It didn't work out in my family. (Well, it worked out great for my brother who took it home with him next time he visited.)

(I love my Tivo, though. This isn't an indictment of the product. Some people just aren't cutting edge.)

Upgrading costs them more than that....

[alwayslurking]

they lose the markup on the hard-drive. If you got a larger capacity Tivo from a retailer you'd be paying over the odds for the internal drive. That's money Tivo won't see for your two boxes.

Ethernet

[Ibjr]

>especially combined with Ethernet access to
>the device, would have caused the
>Powers That Be to get riled up in a hurry

Like this?

Not just tolerant, but supportive...

[creep]

As any regularly hacking TiVo owner will tell you, the company is not merely tolerant of people who hack their product, but supportive. The latest version of the TiVo software includes built-in support for the 3rd party network adapters (TiVoNET and TurboNet). It's this kind of technical interaction that gives me hope not just for hacking, but for development of open source solutions.

Tivo uses PALM's model of hacking!

[Systems Curmudgeon]

Software hacking on Palm OS PDAs follows a similar model to TiVo and, I think, precedes it. http://www.palm.com/ is happy to benefit from the immense variety of shareware, and (so far as I know) has not given anyone trouble, or warrantee worries, from use of Hacks. Poorly written software on the Palm can crash a pda so badly that it must be (in essence) reformatted, so this is not a trivial position.

Tivo has said many times....

[SensitiveMale]

that they don't care about the hacking as long as the hackers do not mess with the subscription service.

And there is a rumor that a prominent hacker has figured out how to get around subscriptions, but he isn't say how.

Probably they love the network adapter upgrade...

[Andy Dodd]

As the 'net adapter upgrade means they have to pay minimal costs for the upgrade.

TiVo likes (and needs) us!

[jgerry]

TiVo is indeed very tolerant of 'hacking' the units. There are even TiVo employees who regularly participate in the discussions on the www.tivocommunity.com bulletin board.

TiVo knows that they have a killer app, but they also know that they are struggling. They need happy customers, but more than that, they need advocates for their products and their technology. That's us!

Personally, I love my TiVo the way that I used to love my Macs -- I have never seen an outpouring of love for an electronic device since I used to hang around with other rabid Apple Mac users. TiVo is a wonderful thing and I don't EVER want to go back to living without it.

Don't forget

[Greenrider]

I know we would all like to think of Tivo as a wonderful utopian mother company that babies all of its little hacker children, but please keep in mind that reaching out to the hacker community is a shrewd business decision, not a form of altruism.

Consider for a moment the fact that hackers are almost always early adopters, who spread the gospel of technology to their less tech-literate friends. If you read Slashdot and/or hack Tivos, chances are you've got a couple of friends who think of you as their tech guru, and who come to you when they're deciding to purchase a computer, a new DVD player, or...oh, I don't know...a PVR unit.

The simple fact is that reaching out to hackers is simply Tivo's way of ensuring positive word-of-mouth from the people who are in the best position to dispense it. This is not a bad thing, but it's not particularly a great thing either - it's just smart business.

Re:Don't forget

[gleffler]

You also must think, though, that TiVo is the best PVR out there now. TiVo's stance toward hacking may be something that makes us 31337 /.ers pay attention to it, but it's featureset and the fact that it is the best PVR for 99% of users out there are what it make it market successful.
/gleffler

Not really...

[Andy Dodd]

Tivo doesn't make money off the hardware. (In fact, the hardware is made by Phillips and Sony, and I think I saw once that TiVo actually PAYS Phillips and Sony a small subsidy per box.)

TiVo's revenue stream is from their *service* - I have a friend that works for them, and he basically says that their attitude is that it's anything goes for hackers, in fact they secretly cheer them on.

BUT, that's as long as the hackers don't go near their revenue stream. Try to screw with their channel guide service/etc., and they will most definately NOT be supporting it. (I think someone basically said that TiVo went to some lengths to shut down people who did such things.)

Hackers upgrading mean:
a) TiVo doesn't have to pay the small subsidy on new boxes.
b) If the hacker installs a network card, it means they stop using the TiVo dialup system for updates.

Re:Not really...

[stevel]

To clarify the subsidy/manuracturing issues..

Neither Philips nor Sony ever manufactured TiVo boxes directly. All TiVos roll off a third-party OEM assembly line in Mexico. Philips-branded boxes are just the TiVo reference design, Sony specified some minor changes and a different (nicer in my opinion, but others disagree) remote control. TiVo even handles the technical support for Philips.

As for subsidies, TiVo did pay a subsidy with the Series 1 boxes (no longer manufactured), but does not do so with the Series 2 boxes being built now, which is a major step forward in their path to profitability.

Re:Not really...

[bubbaD]

Actually the third-party manufacturing in Mexico is an elaborate money laundering scheme run by Steve Jobs, which finances an atomic Death-Ray for Bill Gates as part of his plan to rule the world!

I hope this clarifies the subsidy/manufacturing issues.

Re:Not really...

[Alsee]

Death-Ray

Bah! I laugh at your puny Death-Rays!
My ships are equipped with Plasma Cannons, hitting all four shields!

-

Tivo benefits

[Tazzy531]

Of course Tivo is supportive of the hacking community. They make more money as the grassroot campaign leads people to buy more and more of their products. The people that don't like the addons are the copyright owners that don't want to allow easy transfer of their property. But for Tivo, it leads to greater interest in their product.

Re:Why?

[maroberts]

It's a well spent $300. For example I'm an hourly paid computer contractor who has a journey of 1.5 hours to get home and I regularly miss the start of "Buffy", "Enterprise" and other crap that I like to watch. As a result of Tivo I can arrive 25 minutes late and start watching. Due to the fact I can fast forward/skip ad breaks by the time "Angel" has finished in real time (running immediately after Buffy on UK Sky1) I have caught up to real time.

Working later means I get paid more and can afford more silly gadgets like this one. Or I can earn an extra $300 to pay for a gym membership/ bicycle!

How did they get there?

[SirNarfsALot]

Did anyone really fly to this thing, or did they all drive their Saturns there?

Oh, c'mon. You know they did.

RageBoy would be proud

[Malic]

It looks like TiVo Inc. read their copy of Gonzo Marketing and believed it.

I love my Tivo but

[maroberts]

if any hacker has come up with a way of blocking forced recording let me know.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[gleffler]

Remove Discovery from "Channels You Receive".
/gleffler

Re:I love my Tivo but

[Dionysus]

Record something else in that timeslot.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[jlower]

It's not 'forced recording'. If you're watching something else or have scheduled something else to record at that time, the TiVo content will not be recorded.

Besides, it uses a reserved portion of the disk so it's not like you're losing space for your recordings.

Personally, since I never look through the showcases and other cruft in the TiVo Central menu, I never even know what (or if) it recorded on its own.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[banuaba]

right now mine has a bunch of mr deeds trailers on it. the second one is pretty funny, the first one basically just what's on teevee.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[ncc74656]

if any hacker has come up with a way of blocking forced recording let me know.

I read something a couple of days ago that describes how you can delete the recordings (which also gets rid of the starred item at the bottom of TiVo Central). With backdoors enabled, go into Now Showing and press Thumbs-Down Thumbs-Down Pause Instant-Replay. Scroll past the suggestion recordings and you should see a bunch of entries labeled "Teleworld" and/or "Teleworld Paid Programming." Delete those the same way you'd delete anything else. It doesn't keep them from being recorded, but it at least lets you delete them once they're on there. I deleted recordings that had been on my TiVo since November.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[dachshund]

Besides, it uses a reserved portion of the disk so it's not like you're losing space for your recordings.

As far as I know, that space wasn't reserved when I bought my Tivo. When my box was automatically upgraded (to 2.0, I think), a chunk of previously usable recording time was plucked away and reserved for those ads. If you'd upgraded the space in your Tivo prior to that upgrade, you lost even more space. Please let me know if I'm wrong here.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[Tyger]

You are partly wrong. All TiVos shipped with the appropriate amount of reserved space. Previously it was just a single file as a placeholder. When 2.0 came out, they deleted the file and made it just a software computation that counted the reserved space. If you have done nothing to your TiVo, you would notice a loss of minutes at the most. (In fact, often a change in your favor.. 30hr became 31 or 32 IIRC) If you have upgraded, you now didn't have the appropriate amount of reserved space. 2.0 corrected this, making it look like you lost space. But TiVo warned people about this as soon as the first upgrades happened, so it is not like it was unexpected.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[Otto]

Well, it depends. The 14 hr units had a bit of space (10 minutes worth or so) move to reserved space, but they still had 14 hrs worth of space on them, and that odd extra amount of minutes it had (11? 14?) was rarely used by anyone. Not a tremendous thing. All the 30 hr and up units already had all the reserve they needed allocated, right out of the box, regardless of the version. The two drive units didn't have as much as the one drive units, but it didn't change in the 2.0 upgrade.

If you had upsized your box, then the 1.3->2.0 upgrade did take a lot more reserve as a side effect of the way the reserve mechanism worked.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[Otto]

Heh. Might be a good idea to use the right codes. TD-TD-TU-IR will work better.

Re:I love my Tivo but

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, it depends. The 14 hr units had a bit of space (10 minutes worth or so) move to reserved space, but they still had 14 hrs worth of space on them, and that odd extra amount of minutes it had (11? 14?) was rarely used by anyone.

Not quite. The footprint of 2.0 in the MFS space was larger than that of the previous 1.3.1 version. In order to preserve advertised capacity, the bitrate for Basic Quality recordings was imperceptively reduced. This change is what caused 30hr units to increase in Basic Quality capacity. The capacity at greater quality levels was still slightly reduced as their bitrates weren't adjusted.

Later software upgrades only affected capacity on the order of seconds.

The value of the added features supported in 2.0 and later is well worth the minor reduction of recording capacity and bitrates, and with the later addition of variable bitrate encoding, capacities are even greater than reported.

I want a Tivo here . . .

[Goonie]

Normally, it takes technologies like this very little time to spread themselves around the world. However, there's nothing like Tivo available yet in Australia, or for that matter anywhere outside the States AFAIK.

Now that the technology has been debugged and the business case proved, why the hell can't we buy these things here?

Yes, I know Andrew Tridgell hacked one to make it work, but surely we don't have to go to that kind of effort to make it work . . .

Re:I want a Tivo here . . .

[OpenMind(tm)]

there's nothing like Tivo available yet in Australia, or for that matter anywhere outside the States AFAIK.

Judging from this story, I suppose the have them in the UK.

Re:I want a Tivo here . . .

[gvonk]

Courtesy JamesW on the tivocommunity board.

TiVo in Australia FAQ

Version 1.3

Q: Can I use TiVo in Australia?
A: Yes, you can - well, the series 1 standalone boxes anyway. With some work you can get quite close to the level of functionality of a subscribed US TiVo - live TV guide, control of your Foxtel satellite or Optus Vision set top box, and so on - plus all the standard "trick play" TiVo features - pause, fastforward, rewind and slow advance of live TV.

Q: Which TiVo should I buy?
A: You should get a standalone series 1 unit, and preferably a Phillips unit since the disk layout is easier to expand than the one in the Sonys. You can pick these up reconditioned for not much money (say USD140 plus shipping), or off eBay for slightly more. You're probably best off getting the smallest unit you can find (usually a 14 hour unit) and then upgrading it with a bigger drive yourself, which is an easy process and is explained in depth at Hinsdale's excellent FAQ. You should try to get a unit with the 1.3 software loaded, since it allows manual recording with minimal nagging and generally it is better understood than the later software versions (2.0.5, 2.5.1). I don't believe the UK (PAL) TiVo units are as good a deal as the US ones, particularly as an unsubscribed UK unit is essentially useless.

Q: How much is it going to cost me?
A: Well, it depends on what you buy. As mentioned above, you can sometimes get a reconditioned Phillips HDR-112 for about USD140, or more off eBay. Then there is ~USD24 shipping and handling they tack on automatically. Then using USPS to Australia for the TiVo unit itself (it weighs about 9kg) comes to USD95 at the moment and takes three to five days. So that's about USD260 just to get the unit to Australia. After that, if you want a new, bigger drive you can get a 40GB one for AUD150 (that's the best price I've seen in Sydney in May 2002).

Q: What happens if my TiVo goes wrong?
A: Upgrading the drive in your TiVo voids your warranty. If you have only done software modifications to your TiVo through the serial port you can probably send it back to the place you bought it from in the US, as long as it is still under warranty. Remember that shipping it to the US will probably cost you about USD100 each way - it might be more sensible to buy a new TiVo.

Q: What about the TiVo's power supply? Do I have to use a 110V transformer?
A: No. The TiVo device itself has an auto-switching power supply, so if you have an appropriate adapter you can plug it directly into an Australian 240V wall socket (the TiVo doesn't use the ground prong). For a slightly tidier solution you can easily replace the TiVo cord with an Australian version - you'll see the type of cord it uses, you can buy replacements at Dick Smith etc. Be prepared to force the replacement cord in a little, since the TiVo uses a slightly non-standard shape for the plug.

Q: The TiVo boxes are American, so they use NTSC. Can I view PAL programming on them?
A: Yes. You can use Tridge's Palkit to modify your TiVo to support PAL - it's a piece of software that you run from the rc.sysinit. You can get instructions on how to use it here, and the software itself for 1.3, 2.0.5 and 2.5.1 TiVos. The 2.0.5 and 2.5.1 software isn't done by Tridge, and it's NZ-centric - bear this in mind if you intend to replace the TiVo's tuner to pick up FTA signals in Australia.

Q: What's this about replacing the tuner? I thought you said the TiVo will understand PAL after you install the Palkit?
A: It does, but the tuner doesn't. This isn't a big problem if you don't intend to use the TiVo's tuner anyway. If you plug your TiVo into your settop box or your VCR via RCA cables and allow the settop box or VCR to perform the tuning function, you don't need to worry about replacing the TiVo's tuner.

If you only have FTA where you are and you plan to plug the antenna directly into the TiVo, then you will have to replace the TiVo's tuner with a PAL-compatible one. This is an involved process involving soldering and as such is beyond me - watch this space for some pictures in the not-too-distant future. Fellow Australian TiVo activist Aussie may be able to help with the tuner mod, PM Aussie or myself for Aussie's email address. Note that as far as I am aware no one has found a PAL-compatible tuner which also supports stereo from Australian FTA channels - only mono. This is because we use a strange sub-variant of PAL broadcast that most tuners don't understand fully.

Q: Can I just use the TiVo as a basic digital VCR?
A: Yes, you can modify it to accept PAL, and then there is a script to allow it to accept composite in. You can then schedule recordings manually. Note that you really are much better off with a 1.3 TiVo if this is your aim.

Q: What's the TiVo experience like?
A: The menus and so on are scrunched up somewhat on the screen, because they were designed for NTSC and are therefore 45 lines of resolution too small. This doesn't look bad.

Slightly more annoying is the "green bar" that shows progress through the recording. It is a bit more obtrusive than on US systems because it is about 1/5 of the way up the screen from the bottom, and it is inaccurate because it calculates time elapsed based on NTSC's 60 frames per second instead of the 50 you get with PAL. This makes it show your recording as being shorter than it really is. (This doesn't cause recordings to be cut off or anything, it just means that your progress through the show isn't accurately shown.)

Otherwise, using the TiVo is great! Pauses are clear, fast forwards are, well, fast; slow motions are everything the words "slow" and "motion" lead you to expect. There is about a second's delay when changing channels (the TiVo needs to tell the settop box to change channels, then it spools up a bit less than a second of the live broadcast to give itself time to encode and display the live TV), but for me this is more than made up for by the way that the TiVo tells you what is currently playing on the channel you are switching to.

Q: Can the TiVo control my cable/satellite box?
A: Depends. It will control the Optus Vision cable box (via the IR blaster included with the TiVo) and the Foxtel satellite box (via IR blaster too). I don't know about the Austar box. Note that you cannot (as yet) control the Foxtel cable box from the TiVo, despite some serious effort.

Q: Can I get Australian TV guide data into my TiVo?
A: Yes. First, you need to set up something called a "headend" on your TiVo that basically tells it what stations you receive, what they are called, and so on. In order to do this, you need Tridge's Guidekit, but Tridge is getting a bit uncomfortable about the number of Guidekits going out. If you PM me I will send you out a channel file which you can modify to suit your local situation. If you then send it back to me I will generate a headend for you and send you the scripts required to get it up and running.

In the longer term I intend to set up a web site with some prebuilt headends for various locations in Australia.

Once you have a headend set up, you can use a series of Perl scripts written by Dr. Warren Toomey to collect Australian TV guide data from www.sofcom.com.au/tv. PM me for the URL for Warren's web site. Visit Sofcom to see what channels they have schedules for.

For the avoidance of all doubt : Warren's software and Tridge's Guidekit are for TiVos in Australia only. Their respective software licences prohibit you from using their software in any country where TiVo's service is available. We want TiVo to survive, and we won't be part of any form of service theft.

Edits : 1. Some small changes, added in Aussie's mention of help for the tuner mod, and pointed out that the Foxtel cable box can't be controlled. 2. And spelling! Added the question about the TiVo experience. 3. Changed the details about the Guidekit.

Last edited by JamesW on 05-29-2002 at 02:31 PM

Consider a closed box....

[bunyip]

Being open to "reasonable" hacking is a very good thing. People will buy systems they can customize. The PC itself owes its existence to IBM having built an extensible system.

The Mac, albeit superior (or so Mac users tell me), was less open. It's market share is (in part) a result of that.

It's not just rabid slashdotters with bizarre cases, it's just being able to add hardware to do things you need.

IT's a Dutch Company!

[Anonymous Coward]

Dutch's are known for their liberal mind (Legal Euthanasia, drugs, gay marriage), Tivo is from Philips, Philips is Dutch and already with the so called protected "CD's" Philips menace some industries!

That the way all companies should be, like philips!

Oranje Boven!

Re:IT's a Dutch Company!

[Kazymyr]

Not true. TiVo is an independent company based in California. Thay had some manufacturing agreements with Philips, as they did/do with Sony, RCA, etc.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

TROLL! go home, you health nut freak

hacking tivo doesn't cost them money

[Anonymous Coward]

hacking and xbox to make it into a PC does cause you don't by games.

Client side fundamentally flawed

[Martin S.]

Doing PVR on the client side is a fundamentally flawed model. The server side model makes a lot more sense.

1) The economics of storing one copy of a programme on millions of client side devices compare very unfavourable to storing the content on even massively redundant servers.
2) Hard disks have a high MTBF when compared to existing media, VHS, DVD. Consumers will not accept the total loss of content with a HD failure. The economics of on-site mainternance require the simplest client possible.
3) A server side solution can 'record' essentially an all channels, the resource requirements are order N. A client side solution requires exponential amounts of hardware to allow all clients to record all channels, order N^N hardware.
4) The efficience of a server side solution means that more content can be recorded, even unselected historical choices.

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[BrK]

The server side model is dependant on massive bandwidth, which doesn't exist. You'd lose the ability for all your users to access the PVR features simultaneously.

And what about pausing/rewinding live TV? There is no way that any existing, or forthcoming, CATV infrastructure can scale to support this to enough users to make it profitable.

There are many other flaws in your argument, but it doesn't even get off the ground to begin with, so I won't go into more depth...

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[OpenMind(tm)]

Hard disks have a high MTBF when compared to existing media,

I can only assume, if you meant for this to support your argument, that you mean a low MTBF. Also, in my experience, VHS tapes start "failing" (i.e. losing quality) on the second or third viewing.

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[Gigs]

WRONG!!!!!

Current infastructure is perfectly capable of handling this. Lets look at the facts:
(These are rough numbers!) There are roughly 166 6Mhz Channels availible on a typical 1000Mhz system today. Minus 66 channels for the reverse and analog and you have 100 channels left. Digital Multiplexing allows you to get at least 8 channels on each of those 6Mhz channels. So now you have 800 channels to work with. Further divide that into the fact that the average Hybrid Fiber Coax Node feeds only 125 homes now. So from the Headend to 125 homes you have 800 channels. 800/125 = 6.4 channels per home. Do you watch more than 6 different channels at the same time in your house? Now yes its true that the equipment is not there yet to provide the video feed switching at the headend controlled by the digital box. But that is coming. The Infastructure thats being built today will handle the technology of tomorrow.

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[BrK]

1000 Mhz is hardly a "typical" system. 850Mhz is more common for recently rebuilt or new systems.

A headend feeds thousands, not hundreds of homes.

A typical home has more than 1 TV, so yes, you would need/want at least 2 of these virtual channels per home.

Your argument assumes the entire (digital) system is setup for this dedicated PVR-in-the-sky system. How do you offer a good digital package to the users who are only willing to pay for a basic digital package, and/or still prefer a client-side PVR?

Or are you actually proposing that it's cost effective to put up this massive PVR backend in every HFC node?

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[Gigs]

1000 Mhz is hardly a "typical" system. 850Mhz is more common for recently rebuilt or new systems.

New systems are being built to the 1.2 GHz to 1.5GHz spec now... systems build in the last 3 to 4 years a capable of 1GHz, although the Amps and Taps may need to be updated from 850Mhz in some of the older of those systems.

A headend feeds thousands, not hundreds of homes

Yes Headends do feed thousands but you missed what I said. Each headend has hundreds of pieces of fiber leaving it. Each of those fibers runs to what is called a Node. Each of these nodes feeds 125 homes on average. Each piece of fiber can carry all the same channels or each can carry its own lineup seperate from every other fiber.

Your argument assumes the entire (digital) system is setup for this dedicated PVR-in-the-sky system.

No it does not. I simply countered the point that the infastructure could not handle the number of channels needed to support this service. The plant hanging on the pole now, if it was build in the last 4 years to current CableLab specs, will support these services. The hardware is not there yet to offer these types of service, but the cable plant can certainly handle it.

are you actually proposing that it's cost effective to put up this massive PVR backend in every HFC node?

A PVR is not needed for every node. One massive PVR recording every show on the air would not only support one cable system, but multiple cable systems. The need is a system to coordinate the delivery of the content to the client box and respond to the VCR like commands of the user. Systems like this exist for Video On Demand (VOD). Example Diva VOD, the problem is that Gemstar is now going to buy Diva and companies like it so that it can continue to control this type of technology from both the guide data stand point and the Intellectual Property stand point.

The model that will work in the future is one where the networks sell their programming to the cable operators directly. They make their money either through ad placement within there programs (ie. someone holding a Coke) or buy charging the cable company for the program. The Cable company then has a seperate ad system that they inturn sell time to the ad companies. So that if your watching last months episode of Smallville you are still seeing this months car ads. This system will also allow for narrowcasting of ads so that I don't see diaper and Preperation H ads.

The technology exist to fullfill the Qwest "We have every movie and tv show ever made" claim... but once again we are facing the Media Mogals inablity to change their business model. And as such the ablity to watch what you want whenever you want is far more a political issue than it will ever be a technical issue.

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[fetta]

Hard disks have a high MTBF when compared to existing media

Who cares? Tivo's aren't generally used for long-term storage anyway. They are a time-shifting device more than anything else.

If you want long-term storage, you can always use the Tivo's "Backup to Tape" option (I can't remember off the top of my head exactly what the menu option is called, but it basically plays the recorded show and prompts you to start your VCR - not real high-tech, but it works and it's easy)

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[BrK]

The 850Mhz systems haven't really paid for themselves yet, and you are proposing that some of the most expensive parts (the amps) would need to be replaced to make your solution 'almost' scale enough for widespread offering? Maybe if you're Charter and like to overbuild rural networks...

The "massive PVR" you mention is really more applicable to the ability to control a real-time video stream. You would still need massive amounts of storage to allow for user archival of content.

Anyway... I agree with most of your thoughts about the actual content owners, and the problems therein. I don't believe that a PVR-in-the-cloud scales effectivly, or is cost effective enough, for deployment anytime in the next several years.

By keeping the equipment client-side, you are able to better fully utilize your existing infrastructure (no need to replace amps/taps, no need for a mega-current 1Ghz+ system), and you can bill only the consumers that actually want the service (ie: you don't have to spread the cost of a massive headend investment across the 60% of your subscriber base that isn't interested in the service yet). BTW, I belive your average node estimate is way low. ~500 homes is what I'm used to...

Anyway... thanks for making some good counter arguments...

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[ChaosDiscordSimple]

Fundamentally flawed? For a fundamentally flaws model, it works pretty darn well.

Instead of starting with "what could we have in a perfect world," start with "how can we make what we have better." People who try to do the perfect solution immediately tend to fail. Incremental solutions tend to work best.

The "perfect" solution you suggest have lots of issues that would take a great deal of time and money to sort out. To move video from the centralized server to me requires high speed bandwidth to every customer. Huge amounts of bandwidth. (About 600 kilobytes per second for Tivo's medium quality according to back of the envelope calculations.) While I look forward to cheap and plentiful bandwidth, it isn't here yet for most people. Also, when you have a centralized server serving shows on demand, it starts to look suspiciously like rebroadcasting. Again, a solvable problem, but it would take alot of work to work it out with television networks and Hollywood. And in that legal give and take, you're like to see things like "No program can be kept for more than 6 weeks," and "Programs can only be viewed 5 times per household."

If it helps, think of the Tivo as the stepping stone to a better designed future system. But I doubt it. We moved from mainframes to PCs as people desired more personal control and exclusive use even though it cost us efficiency in many cases. Tivo is similar, it may be inefficient, but it's mine.

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[Gigs]

I didn't really mean to get in to cost in my original statements. I work in a world of possiblities with my job. The cost issue only comes up near the end when we finally weight out all the possiblities we are looking at.

Did you consider that only one copy of any show needs stored for all users? a 1 Million dollar SANs storage solution would hold alot of episodes of Friends and is hardly a huge investment for companies that are spending over 30 million for system rebuilds.

Now I don't disagree that in the here and now client side has many advantages. But I really believe that a headend solution is the way of the future... Is it just me or does knowing that its possible to setup a system that would allow me to watch any show that has ever been on whenever I want it not the way tv should be. I guess having what me and my coworkers consider our personal Coax system might skew our vision of how the world should work a bit :-)

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[BrK]

I will say only that you and I "suffer" from the same problem of having access to too many of tomorrow's TV toys at work. I was just trying to think more in terms of immediate feasibility, but then again, that is more along the lines of my job...

Enjoy!

Re:Client side fundamentally flawed

[Gleef]

The technology for server-side PVR is there (eg. iControl), but the economics of the system mean that they are essentially fancy pay-per-view systems.

User interface issues with iControl also limit the number of shows that can be offered right now. Different UI's will, of course, have more or less flexibility in that regard.

why pay?

[vanguard]

I am guessing this is a joke (why buy the cow when the milk is free) but just in case I'll respond.

Getting these people on the payroll will get talented people who are already "up to speed" working full time on the system instead of part time. Also, you'll be able to direct what they work on. Maybe Tivo would benefit from their next hack instead simply not being harmed by it.

Aug. issue of FastCompany

[Anonymous Coward]

Keep your eyes open for the August issue of FastCompany magazine. There's an interview with the Tivo CEO where he will discuss the config of his home/personal Tivo and the hacks he has employed. It's true that they have to play along with other industries and protect themselves from lawsuits to some degree, but hacking is definetely in their "corporate culture" and is sure to be permitted as much as possible.

BBQ in Chicago

[kvandivo]

Guiding this sorta back onto topic...

TiVo-ites from the forums in the Chicago area (and beyond) are also planning to have TiVo BBQ this August.

Don't know yet how many TiVo employees are going to show up but if you read the forums and are in mid-america you should show up. :)

Information on the get together is at:


http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread. ph p?s=&threadid=62906

Hacker friendly? Not Anymore!

[Anonymous Coward]

TiVo may have once been hacker frienldy, but they cured that once and for all with the release of the Series 2 units.

Thes units contain a "tripwire" like function in the boot EPROM! So far, this has prevented anyone from managing to make ANY changes (other than addeing a second drive) to the inits.

I was VERY anoyed when I found this out AFTER buying a new Series 2 unit. Yes, I was dumb not to check things out more before buying, but the faster CPU, and more memory sounded good to me.

So, if you want to hack your TiVo, buy a (used) Series 1.

DON"T but a Series2!

Fark *had* a great photoshop contest on this

[Anonymous Coward]

FARK had a great photoshop contest involving a pic from the Tivo picnic. The mother of the kid in the picture objected to it and it looks like FARK took it down. I guess she took great exception to shiat like this highest voted winner of the contest.

Implied contract no good?

[PhysicsGenius]

All of society is an implied contract. Did you ever sign a piece of paper saying you weren't going to speed or murder anyone? No, you didn't--just by being born into society you are ipso facto agreeing to abide by the rules. And if you break the rules, you end up in jail. That's how the world works, deal with it--and stop stealing content.

Re:Why?

[Your Pal Dave]

No, you spend your $300 so that when you do decide to watch TV after getting home from your ride you will have a choice of watching the small percentage (maybe even ppm-age) of decent programming that may have been on rather than whatever slice if the 'massive piles of horseshit that pass for "entertainment"' that happens to be showing at the time.

Sure, you can use a VCR to do this, but the PVR makes it orders of magnitude more convenient. Plus, Tivo's suggestion feature is actually pretty good at finding interesting stuff that you wouldn't otherwise be aware of.

Missed the TiVo Gathering?

[shmuc]

Have no fear, a VHS Cult Gathering for us 'old school' hackers is bound to be scheduled.

Re:Hey!

[Anonymous Coward]

Is it really you?!?! I missed you almost as much as 575!

why tivo puts up with hacker?

[wyatt12]

Tivo puts up with the hacks, because the hacks have not yet effected their money bags. If a hack comes out where users do not have to pay the monthly fee, they will too be pissed like the MPAA, RIAA, etc... Yet, as long as this is not done, Tivo can look good by embracing the hacking community.

Wyatt

TiVo linux kernel source?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where can I get TiVo linux kernel source?
I love GPL:)

Re:TiVo linux kernel source?

[Kazymyr]

http://www.tivo.com/linux

Re:Why?

[splateagle]

geesh, sounds like someone's been doing too many hormones at the gym - chill out mate!

The world is a diverse place and TV is finally catching up with this by offering a very VERY wide range of programming. this is a Good Thing(tm)

However I for one don't want to waste my time sifting through all this wide ranging, varied content for the hour or so per day that suits my personal viewing preferences so I coughed up for a TiVo - a box designed to do the sifting for me (incidentally this hasn't stopped me keeping fit by walking to and from work, or left me too destitute to pay for going to the swimming pool)

Think of it like an intelligent search engine, just for TV instead of the internet. If that doesn't make it make sense then I suggest you lay off the Steroids for a week Gymbob ;)

DirecTiVo availability?

[SnotRag]

I have been looking to get a Tivo receiver with built-in direcTV, yet cannot find a box anywhere under $400. They have stopped production awhile back to focus on the series2 (which plan to come out in the fall). Only places I have found on-line only sell direcTivos for new DirecTV subscribers. Anyone know where I can pick one up?

Re:DirecTiVo availability?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try picking up a "used" one on ebay.

Re:DirecTiVo availability?

[bsane]

I just ordered a Hughes DirecTivo for $199 from American Satellite (americansatellite.com I believe). Its supposed to be delivered today so I can't comment about it yet, but they are still available.

I found american satellite by following a link off tivo.com a month or so ago. It now appears to be broken.

Client Side not that bad

[sqlzealot]

I once felt the same way, but after some thought I think the client side PVR model is actually a good one.

1) Broadcast Transmission
Client PVRs rely on broadcast transmission to "download" shows. This means that hundreds of users can be recieving the same show on a local loop and it will cost no additional bandwidth. For server side PVRs to work, they would have to have enough bandwidth at each server to handle all attached users. This would be costly.

2) Infrastructure
To setup server side PVRs you would need to keep adding servers as your subscriber base increases. Not to mention that not every cable user has internet access on their line. This may cost even cost more than just buying a client side Tivo for each user. Tivo is losing money as is. There is no way they could have got the capital to support their user base if they had to maintain all the servers that would be required for server side PVRs.

3) Reliability
While you are right that hard drive failures would piss off consumers, hard drive failures are relatively rare. I suggest that server side PVRs would have even MORE problems than client side. Look at your average web site, which seems to crash everytime its linked to some certain web logs. And if server PVR crashes, then possibly hundreds of users would be pissed off at once, instead of just one.

Server side PVRs have many advantages in the long run, but the short run costs keep them prohibitive for the moment. A good solution may be to combine the advantages of client and server side PVRs. For instance keep the same Tivo functionality, but add the ability to (slowly) download a requested show from a server somewhere. You request it on Monday and get it Tuesday night or something. The new ReplayTV P2P show sharing might be a good model for this.

sigless

Re:Client Side not that bad

[Martin S.]

Bandwidth, yes; and costly, yes; However that bandwidth and video servers are required for Video on Demand services and PVR is an additional service (and revenue) on the same infrastructure. Also both Moores law on hardware cost reduction and Metcalfs law on Network Utility are both at work, time is on side of PVR and server-side solutions are cheaper overall because it requires less redundancy.

It is easier and therefore cheaper to maintain and enchance capacity on the server-side than on the client site, and it is not just the hardware cost, the engineers visit, travelling costs, no shows, it all adds up to increased cost base for client side PVR.

I'm not sure about what you mean with your comments on Internet access, we don't stream the content over the internet, we use a IP enabled private MAN, so our solution does not require Internet Access. However we offer a 256Kbps Internet Connection for £10 UK pounds (15USD/EURO)pcm, and it is the most profitable part of our service at about 80% gross profit.

The HD in PVR is used a lot more intensivly than one in a PC; continuously for the duration of use, the failure rate of HDs in PVR will be much higher than with PC's simply because they are used so much more intensely, coupled with the cost benefit of server-side mainternance, the economics clearly favour Server Side PVR.

We use a cluster of 40 nCube Video servers with RAID totaling ~640 disks. The prospect of all failing at once is quite literally astronomical. They serve a current customer base of 8000, so we need 10th of the disks that a client side PVR solution requires. We also have more coverage because we only need to store 1 copy of any content and as the customer base grows this advantage over client side PVR grows.

Re:Client Side not that bad

[sqlzealot]

This is an interesting perspective from an actual service provider, but I still think you a missing a few points.

1) Moore's Law
Interesting that you bring up Moore's law since it applies to transistor density not network bandwidth. Note that internet bandwidth has NOT increased at the same rate as processor speeds. Client side hardware will get cheaper far faster than network bandwidth. This seems to favor client side PVRs.

2) Internet Access
While I am not disputing your particular business model, most people (in the US, much less the world) do not have access to high speed internet access (much less to a MAN). As such they will not be able to download good quality video files on demand, whereas at least half of the US is already recieving cable.

3) Infrastructure (again)
I am very impressed that you can serve 8000 users with 40 servers. I doubt however this will scale linearly. How will you do with 800,000 (something like Tivos current subscriber base). What about 8,000,000? As the complexity of the system grows, so does it's cost and its chance for failure.

4) HD Failure
I don't disagree, but what is the actual HD failure rate for Tivos? What is the mean lifespan of a Tivo harddrive? I have heard very few complaints so far.

To sum up, I agree that server side PVR/Video On Demand is the best solution in the long run. Unfortunately every business has to make it through the short run first. There have been several attempts at it in the US, but none has had the success that Tivo has. Time will tell if your business model can outpeform Tivo's in the short run. I suspect that Tivo will capture the client side PVR market, then use its advantage to migrate its users to server side PVRs.

Re:Client Side not that bad

[Martin S.]

Moore's Law
Interesting that you bring up Moore's law since it applies to transistor density not network bandwidth. Note that internet bandwidth has NOT increased at the same rate as processor speeds. Client side hardware will get cheaper far faster than network bandwidth. This seems to favor client side PVRs.

Whilst strictly speaking my point is a corollary of Moore's law, bandwidth does exhibit the predicted exponential growth. It is that exponential growth pattern that is important rather than the specific timeframe (indeed the time frame with regard to Moore's Law has varied between ~12 to ~24 months.). It also applies directly to the communication hardware (modems, DSLAMs, switches & etc) and servers. Furthermore since the hardware for a client side solution is adequate, increased performance on the client side is 'wasted', the result is the hardware cost is driven down and the human element of maintenance become an increasingly significant. Whilst on the server side the extra performance can be exploited incrementally and lower cost base increasingly favours the server-side solution.

Internet Access
While I am not disputing your particular business model, most people (in the US, much less the world) do not have access to high speed internet access (much less to a MAN). As such they will not be able to download good quality video files on demand, whereas at least half of the US is already recieving cable.

We (well our parent Telco) installed the backbone specifically for a meta-project, a Digital City Initiative (http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/sci/tech/newsid_ 960000/960909.stm) of which this project is a part. Though I believe that services like PVR enhanced DTV and VOD are the Killer Applications that will finance the wide-scale deployment of broadband network provision to ordinary consumers.

3) Infrastructure (again)
I am very impressed that you can serve 8000 users with 40 servers. I doubt however this will scale linearly. How will you do with 800,000 (something like Tivos current subscriber base). What about 8,000,000? As the complexity of the system grows, so does it's cost and its chance for failure.

The nCube (www.nCube.com) video servers we use do scale in a linear manner. The platform is designed such that it offers a 'turn-key solution' that could be rolled out nationally in the UK on a city by city basis. It seems likely we will be licensing our technology in an International arena shortly.

Re:Stealing? Oh, really?

[stevel]

That's actually a quote or paraphrase of a statement made by a Turner Broadcasting executive. Nobody with half a brain believes it.

TiVo-UK

[splateagle]

yup, we certainly do :) hope it reaches Oz for you soon though...

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

the massive piles of horseshit that pass for "entertainment" these days?

If you are convinced that absolutely everything on TV is horseshit, then yes, Tivo is useless to you, and you don't even have a TV anymore. And that's fine. But if you do still have a TV, then you're a hypocrit.

IMHO, TV is only 99.5% crap, and Tivo is excellent for getting you that .5%.

$300 would best be spent on a bicycle or a gym membership.

Probably true, but we're reading your post on Slashdot, not hearing you at the gym.

Any use of Tivo without programs database?

[jonr]

I want Tivo, simply. But we don't have (and probably never will have) program listings for local tv stations. Is unconnected Tivo useful? could it replce my VHS VCR? (I loathe VHS!).
Just wondering...

Re:Any use of Tivo without programs database?

[stevel]

Where are you that you don't think you have local program listings available?

A Series 1 TiVo that came with version 1.3 or earlier of the TiVo software factory-installed (even if it upgraded to a later version) does not require a subscription - it can be used with manual programming if you don't mind a nag screen that comes up when you go to schedule a recording. Anything newer won't record without a subscription.

Re:Any use of Tivo without programs database?

[Rura Penthe]

This is untrue. Any and all versions of TiVo software all the way through 3.0 will allow you to record without a subscription. You lose most of the benefits of scheduling, but you can still program it like a super-VCR with repeating recordings, live TV buffering, etc.

Re:Any use of Tivo without programs database?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please reread the post. It said "Came with" 1.3.

That includes all Phillips and Sony "standalone" series 1 units. The DirectTV/TiVo combo units, the Series 2 units, and the AT&T units all shipped with a higher rev than that. All of those units say on the box "must have subscription to operate". They do not do the manual recording the way the original series 1 boxes do.

Because the original boxes did not have that disclaimer on the box, they will still get upgrades when subscribed, and can still do manual recordings when unsubscribed later.

Re:Why?

[Anonymous Coward]

You mean like that hour long history show that was on BBC2 last night, which compared & contrasted the lives of George Orwell & Winston Churchill, and how they both affected the development of Britian over the last 6 decades?

O.K. so I agree with you partly, most stuff on TV is shite. How much of it is shite depends on where you are, and what you're looking for though, I guess.

Replay tv weenie roast?

[frankmu]

so are there any plans for a replay tv weenie roast? ;)

xDSL not CATV

[Martin S.]

The server side model is dependant on massive bandwidth, which doesn't exist.

'Massive' no, DTV can be delivered in about 4.5Mbps using current MPEG technology, which is hardly massive, and can be delivered over xDSL to about 3.5KM.

'which doesn't exist' perhaps not widely, but we are starting to do this http://www.kitv.co.uk

You'd lose the ability for all your users to access the PVR features simultaneously.

This is only true assuming a cable infrastructure because of it limiting ring topology. xDSL uses a star network topology, and this restriction does not apply.

And what about pausing/rewinding live TV?

What about it ? Whilst we currently do not provide it *yet* because of development resources it is *absolutely* possible.

There is no way that any existing, or forthcoming, CATV infrastructure can scale to support this to enough users to make it profitable.

Wrong. We are starting to do this now, it is more scalable and cheaper (unit price) than the alternatives (Client side PVR) for the reasons stated in my original post.

There are many other flaws in your argument, but it doesn't even get off the ground to begin with, so I won't go into more depth...

Perhaps you should post them, and I'll shoot those down as well:)

Re:xDSL not CATV

[Gigs]

This is only true assuming a cable infrastructure because of it limiting ring topology. xDSL uses a star network topology, and this restriction does not apply

HFC cable system is a star topology. So the restrictions do not apply to it either. Don't want to start a Cable vs. xDSL war. The same things are possible on both. The issue with all DSL type technologies is always the Unsheilded twisted pair. No shielding limits things because the signel to noise ratio is so much higher. This limits distance and bandwidth because more error correction it needed both in processing time to handle the extra error correction protocol needed as well as the larger number of errors cause by outside interference. Its still a very valid technology.

Re:xDSL not CATV

[BrK]

Massive' no, DTV can be delivered in about 4.5Mbps using current MPEG technology, which is hardly massive, and can be delivered over xDSL to about 3.5KM

3.5KM is about 2.1 miles. That is too much of a distance limitation to allow for decent penetration to make this service more than niche offering.

Additionally, if you want to offer real PVR features to every consumer, you are going to have excessive storage requirements to allow for everyone to archive their content for whatever duration they desire.

The webpage you mention looks like a VOD product, delivered over a physical layer that is only appropriate to densly populated areas, which are are prevalent in Europe than in the US.

You really haven't managed to shoot anything down, you've managed to post your companies vision of a niche product.

Re:xDSL not CATV

[climer]

DTV tivo style is more like 1.5 Mbps. Most of the cable companies deploying VOD this year are using 3.75 Mbps as their max bw/movie.

PVR from the server side is completely possible. I have worked on functional demos of PVR over your typical cable plant. We were using real-time encoders to take analog cable inputs and put it on the server (typical VOD system for cable, lets not name names). The clients would pick the program and could perform all the standard VCR-like controls. Obviously they could only FF to the boundry between live and encoded content.

It is not that hard. More work needs to be done with the guide vendors such as TVGuide to integrate with their product.

Cable infrastructure is ready in the Metro areas. Some rural areas are also ready since they tend to used as test sites for this kind of technology.

/Duncan

Re:xDSL not CATV

[Martin S.]

looks like a VOD product

The only real diference between VOD and PVR is that PVR encodes a source in real time.

Re:xDSL not CATV

[Anonymous Coward]

VOD crosses trust boundaries and PVR doesn't. Big difference.

Can someone please explain...

[Anonymous Coward]

What is this "Screen Name" that StudMuffin speaks of?

It sounds like a bad replacement for "User Name".

The poor mascot

[dr_dank]

The event wrapped up with an appearance by the plush TiVo mascot -- which was greeted with hugs from TiVo's youngest fans

... and the mob of screwdriver-wielding geeks that nearly killed him trying to install a bigger HD.

Re:Of course you are

[tps12]

It is in writing...it's called the Constitution. You may not have signed it yourself, but by living here you do agree to follow its rule, which includes obeying laws as passed by Congress. Assuming you are not a minor (in which case this applies to your parents), you either accept these contracts or you are a criminal.

Customizable Consumer Electronics

[Frobozz0]

Back in the 60's and 70's, people could buy kits to make a computer. Today, hobbyists can still do similar things-- but the spirit is not the same. I build R/C cars and 99% of the fun is just tweaking it out. I've also added a hard drive to my TiVo. I enjoy tinkering with things like this, and a lot of other people do, too.

TiVo could go a step further, by giving users a small how-to guide for basic TiVo hacking. Things like adding Hard Drive's, enabling hidden features, etc. It would be a new (or revistalized?) idea: Customizable Consumer Electronics. It's like you're building a component Stereo system, except the components are all in one box.

Re:Customizable Consumer Electronics

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunately the boxes are sold by other companies, and are not UL approved for being opened by the consumer. That is an *unshielded* power supply in there.

Any *hint* that the company approves opening the box, and someone fries a finger in it, and you've got a lawsuit.

I'm certain that any lawyers in TiVo will tell them that they can't help in any public way.

TIVO was farked

[Anonymous Coward]

A photoshop thread with a TIVOguy and kid was removed cause of a whiny TIVOmother... man o man jumpin up and down martha...

Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[BrianWCarver]

Whoa there! I feel like /. has been overrun by Tivo employees or something with all the gushing going on in this thread. ("Cult" of Tivo indeed!) Let's try to remember:

1) Tivo forcing users to record programs

2) The Privacy Foundation's report on Tivo points out that
a) Your Tivo serial number is sent multiple times during each phone call and there is no way to guarantee data is truly treated anonymously except to trust Tivo.
b) Tivo's definition of "personal" information is significantly more narrow than the average privacy policy reader would assume, and so guarantees about your "personal" information are hollow.
c) Tivo suggests that the viewing information is never transmitted. In fact, all of the constituent pieces of the personal viewing information are transmitted to TiVo's computers.
d) TiVo should disclose that their customer-identified diagnostic log can indicate when the TiVo remote control was in use.

3) Anyone heard of Replay TV here? They are actively fighting Hollywood to defend your rights. When a judge tried to force them to spy on users, they fought it. When Hollywood said users shouldn't be allowed to send programs to other devices, they fought it. When the networks said your skipping commercials was "theft", they fought it. I think a company that does all this for the privacy and rights of its users deserves our support (or at least a MENTION on this page).

Brian
Support EFF! http://www.eff.org
They're defending YOUR rights online!

Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[Anonymous Coward]

All they do is complain, I have yet to see them in action, or win anything in court. I tell you what you need to do. Vote the bastards out of office, only support the candidates who can honest support our needs....

As for EFF, do not give any contribution. Do not give them a second thought. Thinkabout it..what has been their success? Nothing. oh they talk a good game, but they have nothing to back their claim.

Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[aligas]

You know, you can call up TiVo and "OptOut" of the reporting, right?

Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[Anonymous Coward]

obiviously not

Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[Otto]

Jesus, not again...

2) The Privacy Foundation's report on Tivo points out that
a) Your Tivo serial number is sent multiple times during each phone call and there is no way to guarantee data is truly treated anonymously except to trust Tivo.

Except by looking at the method which it uses to send the data and having intelligence enough to figure out that it's sending the serial-containing logs to a different place at a different time, and leaving no way to correlate the serial with the anonymous part of the data. Someone needs to tell "the privacy foundation" that you don't need an expensive box with modem trickery to spy on a connection, you just need a knowledge of how the system works. They've gone out of their way to stick to *exactly* what their privacy policy says, and all you need is a knowledge of Linux and TCL to see that.

b) Tivo's definition of "personal" information is significantly more narrow than the average privacy policy reader would assume, and so guarantees about your "personal" information are hollow.

Personal info, as defined by Tivo, is basically anything that can be tied back to you or to your box individually. Seems airtight to me.

c) Tivo suggests that the viewing information is never transmitted. In fact, all of the constituent pieces of the personal viewing information are transmitted to TiVo's computers.

Huh? Tivo explictly states that anonymous viewing information is transmitted. Read it, specifically section 2.3:

d) TiVo should disclose that their customer-identified diagnostic log can indicate when the TiVo remote control was in use.

The customer identified diagnostic log cannot indicate when the remote control was in use. The Privacy Foundation misinterpreted the meaning of several of the diagnotic messages because they simply looked at the log and not what the hell the unit was actually doing.

I agree, it's important to fight for your privacy. But it's equally important to pick your battles and not fight against the companies that explicit state what data they collect, how they use it, and then stick by that. Tivo has been incredible in that respect. They do it right, and if every company was as forthcoming as they have been about this sort of thing, then there'd be a lot less privacy battles to fight.

3) Anyone heard of Replay TV here?

Yeah, and we all hope they win. But frankly, they have an inferior product. They added nice whizbang features like ethernet (although Tivo Series 2 will have ethernet support too), show sharing, auto commercial skip, and a (somewhat lame) web control, which we geeks love, but they failed to fix the most important problems like: more intelligent scheduling, priorities that make sense, ability to see what the unit will do in the future and adjust it, etc... All the things that make a PVR better than a VCR. Adding neat features is easy. Making a unit work exceedingly well at one thing is more difficult. Tivo works better than Replay for the purpose of timeshifting programs. Replay works better than Tivo for the purpose of geek type stuff. And Replay, while they fight the good fight, are really pushing themselves into an uncertain future by doing so. Ever thought about "what if they lose", which they most probably will?

Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[Tyger]

Thats nice. Go spewing the same things everyone else does without really understanding it.

1) It doesn't force anything. It will never EVER record it's own stuff instead of your shows. If your show conflicts with what it wants to record, you have priority. And it never deletes your shows to record something.

2) At least TiVo has a policy stating what they will and will not do. The privacy foundation didn't even analyze the fact that it was just a PPP connection, they just looked at raw data. They also did it in quite an overkill way. Since then, audits on the TiVo system have found that they do fulfill their own privacy guidelines. If they were ever found not to, there would be hell to pay. I mean, look at how much hell there is to pay just because there is the slight chance that under different conditions they might.

3) Thats nice, and is very noble. But, if you make such a big deal that TiVo MIGHT be able to connect your viewer information to you, then you can not neglect to mention that no other company makes a promise that they will not. In fact, ReplayTV does, for services such as MyReplayTV. With TiVo, it would most likely have to be a TiVo employee to try and get the information. With ReplayTV, anybody who could manage to break into the system could get at the information.

Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[Anonymous Coward]

> You know, you can call up TiVo and "OptOut" of the reporting, right?

Why should i have to? If they are selling my viewing habbits to anyone who will by them why am i paying $10 a month? If they are being touted as a "friend" of the user (as compared to other companies) then the policy should be opt-in not opt-out. I agree with the person above i think /. has been overrun by tivo employees. Until they ditch the forced recording/viewing and do something about the privacy concerns i will not own one.

Re:Tivo, Privacy, and ReplayTV

[Anonymous Coward]

Replay inferior to tIvo? Haha. Obviously you are misinformed.

I bought both a ReplayTV AND a tivO and much prefer the ReplayTV. I used the tIVo as a doorstop for a while, then gave it away to a friend.

ReplayTV is the Lexus of PVR's. More expensive, but also a better product. HANDS DOWN.

Tivo has gotten better (mostly from copying ReplayTV features), but ReplayTV is still king.

Lego is similar

[CaptainPhong]

Lego has been similarly cool about people hacking Lego Mindstorms. They've even released some technical information. People have written all kinds of alternative compilers and operating systems to load into their robots.

Personal property?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah personal property. So if I buy a gun, I can do anything I want with it because it's mine?

That is erroneous logic. You have to agree to the license.

Re:Personal property?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your argument is fallacious.

First, doing anything you want with your gun is not comparable to giving away a copy of a broadcast tv show. A pvr is not a lethal weapon unless you throw it really hard at someone's head. You can't stick up a gas station with a tivo. You can't do a drive-by shooting with a tivo. I can just see walking into a bank and handing the teller the following note: "put all the money in your drawer in a bag. I have a TIVO!"

(btw, I'm not suggesting gun control. Just disputing the example.)

Second, there is no license. There is no agreement, verbal or written, that says I can't watch a free broadcast show without agreeing to it. (equiv or not to an EULA)

Third, a more appropriate comparison is my taping a show for later loaning to a friend.

Is this illegal? I don't believe so. The only difference between watching a borrowed tape of a broadcast and watching one transferred from a friend's tivo is the media. The industry complains that this is stealing, but how is it different?

They tried to stop blank tape sales, but it didn't hurt the program viewing (probably helped it, actually).

One might argue that a tivo recording is digital and then can be transferred to someone else digitally, keeping a perfect copy. The problem with this viewpoint is that it's not perfect in the first place unless the broadcast was digital. And we still have the problem of making a copy of the broadcast on tape.

Re:Personal property?

[macdaddy357]

Yes, you could do what ever you want with a gun, but if you did something illegal, you would be prosecuted. What does that have to do with the Tivo? Nothing whatsoever. You are a troll, and anonymous cowardly troll to boot.

Alternative Tool

[SimplexO]

Now, if only we could come up with a Linux tool to do record TV with tv in, and have a similiar recording engine comparable to Tivo. I would be willing to donate something to that project, cuz monthly fees suck.

It's called Replay TV. I don't know about the newer models, but my Panasonic Replay PV-HS 1000 does the job well. I got it for my dad last year for his birthday. Not only was it on sale, it was being discontinued (for the newer line) so it had a "Manager's Clearance" or something of the like. It has NO monthly payment, which is one of first reasons why I got it. As long as Replay TV stays in business (cross my fingers), I'll still have service.

Not only that, but it has that mysterious 30 second skip button that TiVO users have to hack to use. I love it. It spoils me.

Re:Alternative Tool

[Anonymous Coward]

Both TiVo and Replay now offer monthly fees or lifetime service so there is no difference there.

And the "hack" for 30-second skip consists of 5 remote button pushes. Not exactly rocket science.

Re:You Are in Error

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot excellent piece of programming, which undoubtedly the Linux crew would deign to steal...

fuck you, Tivo

[startled]

So my Tivo broke. The tech knew exactly what the problem was after I called in and waited on hold for 40 minutes, but it wasn't anywhere on their site to help me before I sat on hold for 40 minutes.

Anyway, so it's $130 to basically get a new Tivo if I ship them mine, not a horrible price compared to new Tivo prices. But he didn't really say what was wrong; I'm curious if I can just fix it myself by replacing some hardware. Might call back.

The thing that pissed me off the most is that he asked if I wanted to fork over the cash, I said I needed to think about it. Did he have a number I could call back? Some priority thing so I don't have to sit on hold 40 minutes? Nope. Fuck you, sit on hold.

Not as egregious as, say, getting the cops on you for having cable modem without cable service, but I think waiting on hold for 40 minutes is fucking ridiculous. And having to do it twice for one issue-- well, I'm looking at competitors.

Nice, but new models only appealing for new users

[uradu]

They'll have to do better than Series 2 to get me to buy another unit. They're not offering any significant new capabilities to warrant an upgrade. What would make me run out and buy other unit(s) would be the ability to extract video to SVCD or DVD, and the abilitiy to watch shows on other TiVos on my home network. The new Replay looks mighty good, except for the price.

Linux means never having an unsupported product

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought Tivo because i figured that if Tivo went under. It wouldn't be long before I was able to download software to get channel listing some other way. So I don't have to worry about getting stuck with a useless box.

In this world of crashing dot.com's it was my deciding factor

No longer can be used as a manual PVR?

[Milalwi]

First, I love my Tivo. It's great for recording the boob tube.

However...

A friend of mine, after hearing a bunch of us talk about nice the Tivo was, bought one of the new "Series 2" machines. He wasn't sure he was going to keep it, so he didn't subscribe. After the "trial period" ran out, he can no longer record manually (time and channel, without the guide).

It appears from various comments around the 'net that the "Series 2" machines cannot be used as manual recorders. Now, using a Tivo as a manual PVR kinda defeats the purpose of the thing (IMHO), but the older units can be used manually (i.e., without a subscription) and people may think this is still possible with the newer units.

Yes, I understand that their business model is to get the money from the subscriptions. I'm just pointing out something I had not heard about (that manual recording without a subscription is no longer possible). I was a bit surprised to learn this, in fact.

Milalwi

Re:Of course you are

[Anonymous Coward]

> You have an implied contract with the television studio. You watch the commercials and they'll show you programming. When you break your end of the contract, you are breaking the law.

You have an implied contract, because you want to abide by one even if one doesn't exist.

I don't have any such contract, expressed or implied. If I don't watch the ads, that's the problem of the networks and the advertisers - not me. I never agreed to watch the ads broadcast over those public airwaves along with the rest of the network programming.

Wake up

[goldfndr]

Try the TiVo Community's help forum, if you haven't already.

DIY PVR?

[Back in Brown]

Anyone tried to build a PVR for themselves with a PC? With as much equipment as I have around, I'd rather do that than shell out $300 and another $10+/month for a programming guide. I know I've heard of some software for windoze called snapstream, anyone have any personal use stories. What about something for slackware, or other M$ compatibile software? Heck, there was an article about this in Business Week once if I remember correctly.

big niche

[Martin S.]

That is the distance from the POP usually an exchange, the actual coverage is a trade secret but it is a *lot more* than a niche market. We can reach the rest though active street cabinet.

The storage requirements are *less* for a server side solution only one copy and reference count is needed even if million's of consumers record a program. On a client side PVR a million copies are stored it is massively less efficient.

Yes, the KIT service is much more than just PVR, DTV+EPG is the core, VOD, Internet Access and a range of localised Web-Services, Pizza Deliver, Local Government, Health Services are all included.

Bitrate

[Martin S.]

DTV tivo style is more like 1.5 Mbps.

That is very low bit rate for real-time encoded video stream, what is the encoding standard (MPEG2) ? What is the quality like?

We use industrial strength encoders from Tandberg, pretty much the best money can buy and we achieve an acceptable quality of video at 3Mbps real-time and 1.5Mbps off-line encoding

TIVO must be pretty poor picture quality and generate a lot of artefacts at 1.5Mbps realtime.

Linux PVR (TV recorder)

[Snover]

Now, if only we could come up with a Linux tool to do record TV with tv in, and have a similiar recording engine comparable to Tivo.

OpenPVR. Still in its development stages, but that also means it's still open for suggestions. :)