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Moon Rock Winds Up In Court
Lothar+0 writes "In United States v. Lucite ball containing lunar material (an actual case, I'm not making this up, folks), the feds are suing to get back a moon rock from an American who brought it back from Honduras. They're alleging that this rock from the Apollo 17 mission is stolen property; ironic considering that NASA took something that wasn't under U.S. jurisdiction."
I don' think that the moon is really anyone's territory - at least not just yet...
When will our North American friends realise that their legal system is completely out of control?
First it was the Oath of Allegiance, now a specimen of moon rock - litigation should NOT always be the first resort.
DD
"You can justify anything by putting it in quotes, adding a famous name and making it a sig" - Albert Einstein
What about this place?
http://www.moonshop.com/
I sure hope that NASA is not taking any of them thar moon rocks from my back 40! I gots the deeds to proves it!
If this is the case then where do private collectors get their rocks? Are they stolen as well?
ironic considering that NASA took something that wasn't under U.S. jurisdiction
Not so much. It's the same idea as explorers in the 1600's searching for gold in America. It's no ones jurisdiction, so they can do what they darn well please and claim the land for their own afterwards (or before). Except, in this case, we have that pesky Outer Space Treaty in the way of actually claiming the Land, but I'm not sure about the stuff FOUND on the land. Someone fill me in.
Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.
"Awww, Ricky! I brought this souvenir back from Honduras and accidentally swallowed it! And now the whole country is suing me! Aaaaaahhhhhhwwwwww! Aaaaahhhhwwww! I should have known there was something suspicious when the souvenir seller in the black suit called me Mrs. Ricardo before I introduced myself! Hoow ddoooo I gett iinn theeese thiinngs! Aaaaaahhhwww!"
ironic considering that NASA took something that wasn't under U.S. jurisdiction Oh please. Who paid tens of billions to research and develop the moon landing? Under your definition, no one would own anything, as at some point in history no one owned it. The United States was first to the moon; doesn't historical context give them ownership of the landing area? Furthermore, the rock, if stolen, should be returned. The United States can do a lot more with it (scientific research, etc) than some Honduras collector.
Thank you...
I'm not sure why this story was posted here, what the relevance of it is, or why we should be upset by it.
[FromTheMorning]
I'd like to see them weasel out of that one.
Why hasn't the Lunar Embassy been contacted about this?
Since NASA brought the rock back it's theirs. If you want one you're free to go to the moon and get one for yourself.
If I paid as much money as NASA did to go get that rock, I'd want it back too.
You mean that the moon isn't really made of cheese? What about that nice man that lives there? I would be pretty angry if some guy owned a part of me - especially if I were made of cheese...
...yeah, that's "out of control". What would you have them do, duel for it? People bitch about our legal system, but they forget that history has plenty of example of more violent as less satisfactory solutions.
Miko O'Sullivan
Too bad.
If the US did own the entire planet there would no double be less starvation and war. Instead, commie dictatorship counties countinue to kill millions...
Its easy to be a cynic. It takes courage to realize the truth.
[FromTheMorning]
A question: If the "Lucite ball containing lunar material" is the defendant, and unless it speaks (which would certainly be really weird if it does), how's it gonna defend itself?
Must be something in the American legal system I suppose?
We have left more trash on the moon than any other country. That certainly makes the moon resemble America. (By Trash I mean the part of the LEM that doesn't come back to Earth).
We need those volunteers who clean up the sides of the highways to go and clean up the Moon. I can see it now: "This Moon kept clean by Cedar Grove Girl Scout Troop #213"
I was gonna say that since we planted a US Flag on the Moon, then basically we claimed it. (At least that's the way it works in cartoons.) But as I recall, we actually brought the flag back with us.
I didn't bother to read the article (this is SlashDot, after all) but the plaque that Apollo 11 left on the moon does mention "For All Mankind." I would think that includes Honduras.
However, if the U.S. loses, George W. Bush will declare that Lucite Ball is a terrorist and then the courts won't matter.
To the original owner, that is. If we "stole" it from international territory, then it's forfeit to the original owner, right? Which is to say: the moon. Let's bring that sucker back and put it where we found it.
Any excuse to fire rockets into space is a good one if you ask me.
It's rare that you're presented with a knob whose only two positions are Make History and Flee Your Glorious Destiny.
The United States is suing a ball of Lucite? Hehehehehehehe...
Actually the US signed a treaty with Russia way back when that said neither of us can claim land rights on the moon. The rock could be considered part of that, but I doupt it, you didn't have to claim land rights in the old west to get some gold from it, just to keep others from doing the same. Anyways of course this treaty will bite us when china starts claiming rights to all the land on the moon.
As an American, I must remind you that we would no doubt be just another member of the British commonwealth, if the French had not seen to it that we won the War of Independence. We repayed our debt in WWII (IMO), but we musn't forget that they helped us first.
"It's overkill, of course. But you can never have too much overkill." - Anonymous Slashdot Coward
A Wisconsin dairy farmer allegedly has a chunk of swiss cheese said to be part of the Moon's outer crust although scientists are skeptical whether swiss cheese could withstand the heat from entry through the atmosphere.
Just like all those other British territorial holdings that are still under their control....
Oh wait...
------
Where are the slash-groupies? I distinctly remember being promised slash-groupies!
Somehow, I don't think so.
I think the feds have it right on this one.
The Applo 17 team was sent as an agent of NASA to collect samples from The Moon. Although there is no title claim to any part of The Moon, the samples taken are technically NASA's(I'm fuzzy but maybe this is precidence stretching back to English Common Law). So the US Government through Nixon gave the rock as a gift to Honduras in the 1970s.
Flash forward to now: NASA has no claim on the rock since it was given as a gift. However unless the government of Honduras legally sold the rock it should be given back to the government of Honduras There is clear federal juristiction here and Honduras at the moment has a strong case for asking the rock back. Rosen can't claim "I didn't know I couldn't buy this legally". If he can't prove the Honduran governement sold it to him legally then he is out one expensive rock.
maybe so, but if America had never ceded from the Empire, I rather suspect that the commonwealth might never have been established. I agine what the world might have bee like if the British Empire had become properly democratic - India and the Americas would probably have steered the whole enterprise eventually. If properly handled, it could actually have worked. At least it wouldn't have been so fucking harsh on the native Americans - their fate always seems to me such an ignored crime, Canada did it so much better.
That was classic intercourse!
Title says it all....
The Honduran dictator probably had as much right to give the colonel the rock as Nixon had to give it to Honduras.
If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
Re-purposed Nazi weapons put men on the moon. How does your precious Bill provide for a fairer society than that enjoyed by Canadians? And I never said that I built your country - I'm 29 years old and have lived in the UK, the US and France. I never built much of anything, myself. Careful how much of your ancestor's achievements you claim for yourself, you're just standing on their shoulders claiming that you're the tallest in the world.
That was classic intercourse!
Also, if the World were American, Bush wouldn't be the President, who was the most people? China? So probably some chinese will be voted in. A close second some indian... you get the picture.
~~~Please pass the salt, I hate unsalted MD5s
No problem. You are welcome to spend $50 billion to fly to the moon, grab all the rocks you can carry, and bring them back. I presume it will then be ok for me to steal them from you and when you don't like it I'll complain about silly lawsuits.
Miko O'Sullivan
Yeah, the lawsuit makes sense, but naming the Lucite ball as the defendent is... weird. I'm looking forward to the lawsuit names this precedent will bring us.
Miko O'Sullivan
I would rather have six dozen Terrestrial Planet Finders than a single manned mission to mars.
As for a moonbase, that can wait a few hundred years, too.
Blount vs. McIverson? Which one was the Federal Government? I call troll.
Because then every war can be called "police
shootout".
Considered harmful.
why is this under "space"? why isnt this under "the courts" so we can better point out the fact that the system is totally out of control? or better yet, shouldn't this be at least under humor? i mean, y'all gotta agree, this is crazy..
I support publik eduscatation!
The Irish seem to be doing very well these days, from what I can see. We still get a lot coming over to London, but I don't think they are fleeing poverty, but rather looking for the broader opportunities that a larger community inevitably offers. Same reason that Londoners go to NYC. John Lennon said that moving from London to NYC was like moving from Liverpool to London, IIRC.
That was classic intercourse!
Documentaries such as Enemy of the State have accurately portrayed the elaborate, byzantine network of surveillance satellites that the liberals have sent into space to spy on law-abiding Americans. Equipped with technology developed by Handgun Control, Inc., these satellites have the ability to detect firearms from hundreds of kilometers up. That's right, neighbors .. the next time you're out in the backyard exercising your Second Amendment rights, the liberals will see it! These satellites are sensitive enough to tell the difference between a Colt .45 and a .38 Special! And when they detect you with a firearm, their computers cross-reference the address to figure out your name, and then an enormous database housed at Berkeley is updated with information about you.
Of course, this all works fine during the day, but what about at night? Even the liberals can't control the rotation of the Earth to prevent nightfall from setting in (only Joshua was able to ask for that particular favor!) That's where the "moon" comes in. Powered by nuclear reactors, the "moon" is nothing more than an enormous balloon, emitting trillions of candlepower of gun-revealing light. Piloted by key members of the liberal community, the "moon" is strategically moved across the country, pointing out those who dare to make use of their God-given rights at night!
Yes, I know this probably sounds paranoid and preposterous, but consider this. Despite what the revisionist historians tell you, there is no mention of the "moon" anywhere in literature or historical documents -- anywhere -- before 1950. That is when it was initially launched. When President Josef Kennedy, at the State of the Union address, proclaimed "We choose to go to the moon", he may as well have said "We choose to go to the weather balloon." The subsequent faking of a "moon" landing on national TV was the first step in a long history of the erosion of our constitutional rights by leftists in this country. No longer can we hide from our government when the sun goes down.
by 70%
This summer I'm working at Lawrence Berkeley Lab, and some of the people near where I work have gotten a few grams of lunar material (Apollo 15, IIRC) from NASA for an experiment aiming to figure out the material's age of formation. Now they only need to look at a particular tiny part of the sample and NASA expects to get the rest back.
Now none of that is unreasonable, but what is unreasonable is the insurance policy they have to take out on the material against theft, accidental lost or destruction. Now insurers naturally want to know the value of what they are insuring. NASA's official and much repeated line is that all lunar material is priceless. This poses a serious problem for insurers, so the next question was what is the cost to replace the sample. No joke, they figured the cost of the policy, and hence the premiums, based on the cost of building a rocket, flying to the moon, collecting a new sample, and bringing it back. Not only that, but two members of the Berkeley physics department are officially down on paper as having volunteered to make the trip should it become neccesary.
I don't know what they are paying exactly, and being in a secured area of a restricted access research lab probably helps keep down the cost, but still it's not cheap holding on to lunar material that NASA expects to get back.
I thought the last point(in art.) about selling off NASA's assets to fund missions was odd.
Could end up scrubbing as some damn collector already resold the booster.
Historical Footnote #1: There are no Indian Reservations on the East Coast of USA
This is just not true. There are three or four in the state of Mainewhich last time I looked is on the east coast.
There are plenty of examples of the screwing of the American Indians, you don't have make any more up.
How come WWI didn't repay the debt? I think WWII and the Cold War put them back in our debt!
I certainly wasn't. The French have far more perfected the art of living than either the Americans or the British, although the little I've seen of Italy suggests that they may have gone further still. The British are certainly a much more modest race than both of the others - both the French and Americans seem to think that they invented democracy and the rule of law, when it rather seems to me that the Magna Carta did more than both.
That was classic intercourse!
Interesting article, good coverage of the history of this particular rock and similar cases, but the main reason I read to the end of the thing was to understand how in the hell a ROCK can be the defendant in a court case. No explanation of that wacky concept at all.
It is the duty of the most powerful nation to protect its own interests as well as the interests of freedom and democracy. What's wrong with policing the world and undoing unjustices? It's noble; and besides, who else is going to do it but the United States? No superpowers are left. Even China cannot compare anymore.
I know Karate, Kung Fu, and 47 other dangerous words!
Hispanics almost outnumber whites in the US, but there hasn't yet been a serious Hispanic contender. Females outnumber males but there hasn't been a serious female contender.
Politics doesn't work by majority rule, it works by whoever has the most money, and so rule would remain in the United States or other Western nations.
The flags were left on the moon, they weren't brought back.
maybe this is true... nobody can really say... but one thing is for certain... the US doesn't WANT to control the world... if it did than it would have to protect everyone under their rights and as it is now we (as americans... yes ALL of us) make profit off countries that dont run themselves like us... the world cannot support one giant US... not the way we live it now...
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
Is that the U.S. Federal government is spending tax money, and personel resources in setting up "stings" to retrieve moon rocks. Seriously... with all the political corruption, coroporate bullying, and other things going on in the country over the last 15 years, would you rate a moon rock sting as a worthy use of your tax dollars? You know the gov can't do anything for less than $200,000 these days. What did this "sting" cost the people? What corporate embezzler, political bribe or corporate espionage was not thwarted because the fed thought it more prudent to search for moon rocks?
Article X: The powers not delegated... by the Constitution...are reserved...to the people
Those who are interested can look in the archives about two years ago for an article here in Slashdot linking to the customs declaration that Armstrong, Aldrin, and Collins signed bringing some of those rocks into the country. I have a copy knocking around here somewhere...
We did push most of the Eastern tribes off into the Western deserts... imagine how hard that would be for people who worshipped nature ("Where the fuck are the trees?")...
"The litigated rock arrived on Earth from the last manned moon mission in 1972, was encased in Lucite, attached to a plaque and presented as a gift by President Nixon to the Honduran government the following year."
I'd have to say at that point the Government of the United States gave up any claim of ownership we had.
unless it speaks... how's it gonna defend itself?
Defendants generally don't need to speak. (Consider the examples of hostile, mute, comatose, or autistic defendants.) I'm pretty sure there will be an attorney arguing the defendant's case.
The bigger question in my mind is how American courts would permit an inanimate object to be the defendant. Or is this just CNN's mistake?
Considering that Hispanics reproduce like mosquitos, they will outnumber all races eventually across the planet. If you don't believe that, look at what percentage of Mexico and South American countries' population is under 14.
1.NASA retrieves rock from moon. US government now owns moon rock
2.US government encases rock in lucite ball and gives ball to Honduran government. Honduran government now presumably owns moon rock (unless there was some condition attatched to rock that specifies that US government retains title in which case things are different).
Honduran dictatorship then appears and rewrites the law giving them rights to all property of the old government, including the rock. Honduran dictatorship now owns rock (presumably).
Now somehow the rock gets into the possession of the colnel. If the transfer to the colnel was illegal under honduran law (i.e. the colnel stole the rock) then the colnel should be charged with theft and the person who bought the rock from him should, at best, be charged with possession of stolen property (but if you buy stolen propery then you cant be found guilty of possession unless it can be proved that you knew it was stolen when you bought it). If the transfer happened legally under honduran law(because the dictatorship gave it to him) then presumable the colnel now owns the rock and therefore he can legally transfer that which he owns to someone else in exchange for money.
wait, i was under the assumption the moon WAS ours, i mean, we got there first, and then we stuck a flag in it
"Sic Semper Tyrannosaurus Rex."
Hispanics almost outnumber whites in the US, but there hasn't yet been a serious Hispanic contender. Females outnumber males but there hasn't been a serious female contender.
Don't you Americas have some stupid rule that says your president must be American born and MALE? I'm sure I read this somewhere.
I suppose the true value of anything is exactly the price that someone is willing to pay for it. To me, it's worthless. It's a fricken rock!!! It's a rock in a ball no less. I think a freshly minted penny would be more attactive to me.
But this is a non-story. The US government is simply trying to return property that, so far, appears to have been misappropriated from a foreign government. It's in the US government's best interest to see that it is returned.
Whether or not we actually own the moon is so incredibly irrelevant I can't even believe the notion was brought up. The rock was a gift from our government to theirs. The rock maintains significant value to collectors and so is perceived to hold some value. It is supposed to be in the posession of the Honduran government and is not in their posession at the moment.
What I don't know is whether the Honduran government is actively requesting its return. I haven't read where the rock was actually STOLEN from any part of the Honduran government or any of its dictators. I think it's significant that in the absense of an actual claim that it is illegally out of Honduran territory, the rock should remain with its current owner, Alan Rosen.
I think it's incredibly arrogant for the government to seize property without first hearing a claim that it has been acquired through any illegal means. Okay, so we have an arrogant government... what governmental body ISN'T arrogant?
Do Not Taunt Happy Fun Ball
FreeBSD for the impatient.
a British monarch hasn't done anything without permission since the time of George III. Quite right, too. You can thank Cromwell for that if you want - talk about tough love though.
That was classic intercourse!
what did it do wrong? immigration violation?
SO when my big ol can of whup ass gets opened on someone, they will of corse, charge the can with assault, right? Seems only fair.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
American born, yes, female, no.
Actually, not even American born. You have to have been an American citizen since birth. Slightly different.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
The French didn't help us out of ideals or altruism. They did it because they hated the British. Between the War of Independence and the War of 1812, we fought an undeclared quasi-war with the French. Don't romanticise history too much.
FreeSpeech.org
$5 million for 1.142-grams of moon rock? In Detroit they "moon rock" and "moon dust" for $10-$40 per gram.
"You know you don't act like a scientist, you're more like a game show host." Dana Barret
A:Well, If you've seen one country, you've seen them all.
B:Well, have you?
A:Have I what?
B:Seen every country?
A:Well, I've seen one country.
I don't see how anyone can be in agreement when this sort of thinking is rampant.
Of course, even if people are in agreement under these circumstances, the agreement is worthless.
Maybe NASA can tap this lucrative new source of revenue to fund ambitious missions of exploration. I'm hoping that bits of Mars start showing up on Ebay within the decade!
ALL "democratic" western governments are corrupt, it's no particular slur on GWB's crew. Try Googling for "Tony Blair Bernie Ecclestone" and see what you get. Why do the Chinese need to innovate to get to the moon? America already showed them how, and the Chinese hardly have to convince the population to come up with the money, do they? And GWB not capable of REAL corruption, remember you wrote that when Big Oil starts drilling in YOUR favourite national park.
That was classic intercourse!
Exactly what is "Hispanic"? And don't tell me descendents from Spain because they're not. According to the stupid politically correct US census rules Spaniards are considered "white europeans" -- so go figure.
Hispanics can be American born (Hispanic-American, whatever, if you wanna nitpick). There's no gender rule, though.
"IN almost all cases, owning lunar material is illegal unless you can show a clear paper trail back to nasa" is kind of scary.
What they are implying is not that posession of moon rocks is restricted, but that, unless you can show clearly how you got it, it was probably stolen (because if it wasn't, you'd be able to prove how you got it).
This scares me a bit, though. How long until we are required to show chain of custody documetns & receipts for every single object we own, lest the government sieze them as stolen?
And whatever happened to posession being 9/10ths of the law?
Is there any connection between this story and the poll about cheese...?
RMN
~~~
the bill of rights is what makes all this outcry on slashdot about "our rights" possible... if it wasn't for that bill of rights (the constitution too) then we wouldn't be allowed to say what we say here... nor would we even have any rights to fight for...
unzip; strip; touch; finger; mount; fsck; more; yes; unmount; sleep
The moonrock will be represented by An Inanimate Carbon Rod.
Vote Technocratic! Government by killer robots!
I was gonna say that since we planted a US Flag on the Moon, then basically we claimed it. (At least that's the way it works in cartoons.) But as I recall, we actually brought the flag back with us.
The US has limited outer space jurisdiction, according to the Outer Space Treaty of 1967. The treaty limited State sovereignty over outer space. Outer space was declared to be the common heritage of mankind. It prevented certain military operations in outer space and upon celestial bodies, specifically, the placing in orbit of any nuclear weapons or other weapons of mass destruction, and the installation of such weapons on celestial bodies. Outer space was otherwise to be reserved for peaceful uses. Various other international conventions, such as the Moon Registration, and Liability Treaties, expand upon provisions found in the Outer Space Treaty.
The Moon Treaty of 1979 essentially stated that the exploration and use of the moon shall be the province of all mankind and shall be carried out for the benefit and in the interests of all countries.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
What dumbfuck moderated this as offtopic? It was a direct response to:
Also, if the World were American, Bush wouldn't be the President, who was the most people? China? So probably some chinese will be voted in. A close second some indian... you get the picture.
The moon's not under US jurisdiction? I thought that George W & Co had declared that everything everywhere was under US jurisdiction.
The man on the moon is a terrorist, we must apprehend him.
Not in many of the reservations. They got the worst land, lots of desert real estate.
If China gets anywhere close to putting a base on the moon - like they recently were talking about - I can guarantee that the US would pore billions into a program to take it for 'humanities sake'. Not that I think that is bad, as an American I would rather see us there that China.
It would be nice to see a new society develop there. One that begins as an international group of pioneers and, over generations, develops into a nation of its own.
The idea of the moon being a colony of a single nation just doesn't appeal to me. It'll probably be that way in the beginning though - because of the cash needed to pull something like that off. Unless a very large corporation does it - God, can you imagine Bill G as ruler of the moon!
It's silly how bizarre everyone's being about a little piece of rock: It's not chemically different from a plain old earth rock -- and it's not like it's rare or anything. Everbody knows that there're hundreds of billions of tons of the crud and everyone knows exactly where to find it.
What do you mean they cut the power? How can they cut the power, man? They're animals!
You used to could check them out from NASA if you were a teacher at an accredited institution--or something like that. You'd get a pebble inside a lucite hockey puck, suitable for viewing under a microscope. I know somebody who checked one out, then slept with it in his bed (he also used it in a space exhibit at a student fair).
Couldn't find anything at the JSC site about this in a quick search. Maybe they don't do it any more, or maybe their site is hard to find things on.
By an amazing coincidence, I was watching the movie "Apollo 13" tonight on TV and it got me looking up facts about the moon on NASA's web site. I happened to come across a page that tells you how to request lunar samples. From that page:
I don't know whether this applies to the particular Honduras lunar sample, but I thought it was interesting.
Teletubby 1: Ooooh! (picks up rock at his feet) Pretty!
Teletubbies 2&3: Ooooh! Pretty!
(Commercial Interruption crackles on one of the Tubbies tummies)
Jerry Falwell: Hi kids, Reverend Falwell here. Don't watch the Teletubbies. Teletubbies are evil.
Teletubby 1: (antenna lights up)
Teletubby 2: (gets a box)
Teletubby 3: (gets a stamp)
Teletubby 1: (Packs the rock into a box and ships it to Falwell) Now he's our friend!
Teletubby 3: He's special!
Teletubby 2: Who's special?
Teletubby 1: Jerry is!
Falwell: I don't want your worthless rock! (sells it to the church of scientology, church sells it on EBay to some kid in Florida)
(Teletubbies beat Florida kid senseless, steal his rock and ship it back to Falwell)
I realize this may seem like an overly-simplified comparison, but I think it paints a pretty accurate portrait of just how important this issue is.
If so, then how do we get to start doing that, instead of protecting the interested of the ruling corporations, and actively opposing freedom and democracy?
Tom Swiss | the infamous tms | my blog
You cannot wash away blood with blood
If you'd read the article you'd know that it left Honduras under the tenure of one of their various dictators. They'd like it back.
Why?
When some of the facts leading to this case happenned Honduras was a dictatorship.
United States v. Lucite ball containing lunar material (an actual case, I'm not making this up, folks)
Uh-oh. Lucy's getting sued by the government? Ricky's never gonna let her play with the band now!
Has anybody but NASA been to the moon lately?
Personally I think you are easily scared.
BOO!!!!
I'm sure there are plenty of people who would take a rock from their backyard, encase it in a Lucite ball and sell it on eBay if they thought people would fall for it. Heck, from the looks of the photo, that could be a piece of dried dog poop.
Let's take it one step further: Nixon wanted to placate the Honduran dictator without giving him anything of real value, so he had some of Checkers's excrement encased in a futuristic-looking Lucite ball. Deliver it with a plaque and you have a great joke to tell your friends. In fact, I'll bet that's what he was talking about during the famous gap...
NICHT FURSHTEN :(
do bist eine schwartskopf?
ich libe dich!
guten tag!
I don't get your point
But I believe it has something to do with trolls!
Here's an interesting case name on forfeiture:
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. ALL FUNDS ON DEPOSIT IN ANY ACCOUNTS MAINTAINED AT MERRILL LYNCH, PIERCE, FENNER & SMITH, ET AL., Defendants (CV 90-2510; UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE EASTERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK; 801 F. Supp. 984; 1992 U.S. Dist. LEXIS 12263; August 5, 1992, Decided)
To give an example of the last part: I was born in Canada in 85. My brother was born in Canada in 87. We got our US citizenship in 97 or 98. My citizenship only counts for the last four or five years. My brother, on the other hand, is an American citizen from birth. (from what I recall there was a change in immigration law that had a cutoff between me and my brother). So we've lived in the country the same amount, but he could become President and I couldn't.
There are a lot of HIGH costs besides the financial ones to manufacturing computer parts. A lot of very very toxic materials are needed, and china don't dispose of them in a afe manner.
China has a weak rule of law, and a goverment that has trouble effecting change. These two things will hold china back and I have no fear of american power diminishing until these two things are changed. China has a huge aids problem that is growing becaue their leaders are unable to face things. They've built the three gorges dam which could if it fails kill millions.
They won't even admit there is a problem, they can't and so they fester and grow. This and other decisions I fell will ensure that china will remain behind america because they will squander their wealth and advances.
There are some poor or utterly wrong explanations below, so let me clear it up. The rock isn't really "defendant" in the case; it's just the way they write the title. What's happening is the government is trying get a declaration of the disposition of the property as against 1) Rosen, the guy from whom they took the rock, and 2) against the world (probably, although there are some legal technical stuff that might preclude this one). If this is the only point of the case -- which it is here (I suspect because Rosen is unavailable, as in out of the US so unable to be served with process) -- then plaintiff can bring suit "against" the property itself, not as if the property did something wrong, but in order to get the court to say "yes, we declare that this property belongs to you, plaintiff" or, sometimes, "this property does not belong to anyone (because no one is allowed to have it)". The "defendant" doesn't need due process or a way to defend itself because it doesn't NEED to defend itself. Property is property; a bundle of rights plus (sometimes) some tangible thing. The collection of rights may change -- they're legal constructions, after all -- and the court with the right power can change it.
A court can only do this if it has power over the property. For real property, which is what is most often litigated in this way, the court in the state where the property is located can do it. For personal property, the court has to have it within its power. (Since the US took the rock, they would have given it to the court for it to hold for purposes of jurisdiction.)
When a court has power over property, they can hear the case: this is called "in rem" jurisdiction. ALL THIS MEANS is that the court -- as the arm of government that decides legal dispositions of everything -- may declare who really owns the property. "in rem" is not weird, or new -- it has been around for many, many years (definitely since the beginning of our nation, developed in English common law at some point). The main reason there are "in rem" suits is that sometimes it's hard or impossible to sue the proper defendant, because she is unavailable (as in no one can find her) or because the court that has power over the property does not have jurisdiction over the person (the proper defendant) involved. Rather than let this person dispossess others with legit interests in the disposition of property, the courts long ago exercised their power as part of the sovereign state to make the decision themselves.
"In rem" jurisdiction is very limited, nowadays, because of the Supreme Court's interpretation of constitutional due process and the effect on the unavailable defendant. It has NOTHING to do with crimes (although a crime may be involved); it's only about who owns the property. And no, this is not illegal search and seizure, and this is not NECESSARILY forfeiture. If there's a dispute as to ownership of property, the court with power should theoretically be able to adjudicate it (think about it: courts really do it all the time, e.g., in contract disputes).
I suppose whether you think this is right really comes down to what you think property is. But look at it this (admittedly theoretical) way: Sure, you think you own that piece of land. But really, who says you do? Why doesn't the next door neighbor do, or some native American, or the first person to say "this property is hereby mine" and plant a flag? The government, of course, say it's yours: this is the legal construct of property ownership. This construct gives a lot of power to the owner, but when there is a real, good faith, significant dispute as to who owns the property, well, what else will decide ownership but the legal system?
At any rate, this is the legal explanation, along with some legal theory...
That's why NASA wants the rock back. No one can prove it, if they don't have a piece of it! Must cover the tracks of the faked moon landing. All the samples given out were just earthly dirt, with some iron thrown in for good measure. When pushed on this issue in the future, (after the truth of the bogus samples is known) NASA will claim that 'Moon' rock is far too valuable to have given out willy-nilly to governments around the world. The 'moon' rock is fake, the landing is fake, and the lawsuit is to cover it all up.
It's Ironic that the government would fight so hard to get a moon rock back. Cuz NASA has many tons of moon rocks sitting in storage, untouched since 1970.
All it takes is nukes and nerves.
I would disagree
Time for some tasty Shiner Bock!
I love it when two ACs battle it out. It's kinda like the battle between Good and Evil, except it's totally up to you whose side you're on. I guess that makes it like the War on Terrorism. (Though Mohammad Atta isn't an AC any more.)
god, why do I write stuff like that?
If, as AC #1 believes, "The world could easily be fed with the infrastructure and materials we have now," I ask: Why isn't it happening then? There are hungry people right here in America, after all. (And I'm not talking about the kind of hunger that I'm about to solve by ordering a pizza.)
The United States Constitution, Article II, Section 1, paragraph 5
No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President; neither shall any person be eligible to that office who shall not have attained to the age of thirty five years, and been fourteen Years a resident within the United States.
And there will be again. If forest fires permanently destroyed forests, I would have to imagine there would be no forests.
.50 cal machine gun. Not exactly the noble battle of Man vs. Beast most people envision.
Mt. St. Helens is a perfect example, even though there aren't really any trees growing there 20 years later. There's plenty of "nature".
Indians, on the other hand, by which I mean their society, way of life, yadda yadda, will not be coming back any time soon. The best example I can think of is the Macah tribe out here in Washington that likes to go and hunt whales every now and again. People get all up in arms over it. Plus, here's the "traditional" whale hunt they go on: One guy throws an old-timey harpoon in the whale, and once "tradition" has been satisfied they open up with the
I am going to listen to Talking Heads "Moon Rocks" from the Speaking In Tongues album in a last-ditch effort to stay on topic.
How long until we are required to show chain of custody documetns & receipts for every single object we own, lest the government sieze them as stolen?
Happens that way with real property all the time. Why do you think so much is involved in buying a house, including buying insurance to protect the deed's validity?
I don't need large brains to have a good time.
There are hungry people in America, because they are told it is noble not to seek help, or because they live in an area in which the people belive it is a good idea to force people to work or starve.
You make that sound as if the United States is doing something unsusual. Treaties are declared only because two countries find them beneficial, and are usually discarded when one of the two countries doesn't
Rarely is it discarded because both countries don't.
So where the Romans, the Spanish, the English, the French.. in their times. And all belived they will rule forever.
Just that empires come and go, power becomes corupted, and they fail.. probably the next great power will be China.
have you never seen "The Mouse on The Moon"
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I guess the rock looked at the OJ Simpson case and then at the M$ debacle and deduced it would have a good chance at winning... after all it's very famous and the "only" real space rock...
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"we live in a post-ideological world..." - Billy Bragg.
Has anybody but NASA been to the moon lately?
Actually, yes. The Soviet Union sent many unmanned probes to the moon and retreived moon rocks in the process. This page details the Soviet Luna program.
Notice that the last mission in this series was Luna 24 that returned a "lunar sample" in 1976. Also notice that that last NASA mission to land on the moon (and to bring back samples) was 1972. So the Soviet missions were more recent, although I'm not sure what significance that has.
So If I go to the Smithsonian, open a display case with moon rock and just take it, and if the govt sued me to try to get it back, it would be "ironic?"
"We claim this moon in the name of the Queen, Herbert Hoover."
My blog can kick your blog's ass
So wouldn't that mean that Switzerland claims it?
once it was given to honduras its none of the us govt's business what happens to it. outside of their juristiction/reach.
Small nitpick- I usually agree with the stuff you write.
National Parks are one of the few types federally owned land that is reserved for 'nature' (and our enjoyment of it). Most other categories are for exploitation and always have been. National Forests exists to preserve and manage timber resources. I'm not so sure the purpose of other classes of land, but its almost always set aside to manage/exploit resources- not to keep them in pristine condition. The fact that cool places exists in National Forests is secondary to the fact that the government claims the rights to (and eventually will) log it. Not sure what explicit protection 'Wildlife Refuges' have, but I guarantee its less than a National Park.
I find it surprising the number of people who act like the words "under God" belong in the pledge. If the words were "under Allah" or "under Zeus", how would you feel about saying them every morning? Just because you believe in God -- and therefore are inspired (or at worst unmoved) by these two words -- doesn't mean that everyone else who does not should be forced to recite them.
'DuranDuran' is implying that the suit (and even more so, the finding) was frivolous. It was not, and I find the prospect of Senate making the current 45-year-old pledge phrasology into a constitutional amendment enough to make me consider emigration.
In fact, Neil, Buzz, and Mike did go through all the proper customs paperwork when they brough their moon rocks back. You can see the actual customs declaration here
This is what is known as an "in rem" suit. A party -- here, the government -- seeks to establish that it is the owner of a piece of property. Provided that a court has jurisdiction over the property, it can decide everyone's rights in it -- not just parties to the suit. In contrast, if the government just sues one person for an object and wins, anyone else can still claim to be the rightful owner of the object and (usually) will not be bound by the earlier judgment.
There are many well-known cases with names like "U.S. v. 40 acres of land," and people love to cite a customs case called something like "U.S. v. 133 boxes of Mrs. Floogle's Delightful Foot Powder." I have been told, but cannot verify, that slaves' suits for freedom were usually done in rem, in order to extinguish all claims, not just the apparent masters', which is why the famous case just before the civil war was known as "Dred Scot v. Sanford" rather than "Scot v. Sanford": "Dred Scot" was not personally the plaintiff, but rather a description of the disputed "res."
Either that, or the WWF (err, WWE) champ is involved.
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The case is fun in several ways. First, of course, there is the question of how ownership of personal property is initially created -- in this case by physically claiming it before anyone else. There are related treaty issues, of course.
The second, perhaps more interesting question here, is this: "Why is the U.S. suing a rock?" That, as opposed to the question why isn't the US suing the person currently in possession for title to the rock. The answer is one of jurisdiction -- ad personam jurisdiction.
You can sue property (so called in rem suits) or people (in personam), provided that you have jurisdiction over the relevant party. It is not uncommon at all, particularly in civil seizure scenarios. At any rate, the point of suing the property is to assure that it is within the jurisdiction o fhte court (when the individual in possession may not be), and then take the property after "title" in it is cleared.
Estimated cost of 1.142g of lunar material:
$5million
amount brought back by EACH mission:
100kg
total value of each lunar mission:
$437 billio
Any companies interested in that?
The same has been true for some time here for "bits and pieces" of endangered species. You have to prove that you got it legally if it is sufficiently new. Such restrictions are likely to be the only reason some of the species are still on the endangered list, rather than the extinct list.
I don't see any problems with that.
Soviet missions were also the first.
A close friend of my family was ver influential at NASA for all of the FL launches. He gave me a patch that has been to the moon and back. Its was one of the patches that NASA allowed to be given out to the public (mostly senators and the like) but when I was given the patch, the comment was made "its rare now but in twenty years it will be common".
To me it its a memorial -- not to where man has been but to where man has no ability to return.
Mod parent up! The linked article is VERY interesting and a must read.
"...ironic considering that NASA took something that wasn't under U.S. jurisdiction."
When your country goes to the moon, you can claim your own moon rocks. Until then, suck it up. At least I'm assuming that's what the submitter meant... The context of that comment is so ambiguous as to inspire large quantities of confusion...
You need a FREE iPod Nano
Under the Code of Federal Regulations, Title 14, Section 1221, adopted on July 16, 1969 [four days before Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon] and still in effect when I ran across it in the 90's, the chief administrator of NASA has extraordinary, almost dictatorial, powers when it comes to anything that returns from outer space.
For example, if you encounter an extraterrestrial object, you can be apprehended and detained (even secretly) for any duration at the discretion of the NASA Administrator (or his appointees) without a hearing, and the courts are explicitly denied the right to free you! Just encountering someone who encountered such an object was enough to make you subject to these terms! (In this case: man encounters lucite which encountered moon rock)
Don't take my word for it. The law is quoted below (I can't seen to link it on the gov website today). Freaky stuff! A very relevant caveat given today's security hysteria and open-ended blanket laws.
It's easy to see what they were afraid of (The first moon rocks were to arrive in a week, and the risks of exposure were unknown), but the law wasn't time-limited, and remained in effect for decades despite a steady trickle of questions from the public.
Actually, in the U.S. the DEA (or local law enforcement in many states) can sieze your property if you are suspected -- not even charged, mind you -- of being a drug dealer. In California, this is also true for being in a gang or being associated with a gang. You then have to go to court to get your stuff back, even if you're never charged -- and what are you gonna use to pay for that suit? Mm hm.
So, don't count too heavily on your constitutional protection from unreasonable search and siezure.
Oh, go on, check out my job.
fair enough, but I do find it troubling that the USA spends so much more effort on finding new reserves of oil than it does on educating (or legislating) changes in fuel consumption patterns. It's verging on scandalous that the average fuel consumption of private vehicles in the US should actually be rising. we all know that the American penchant for 2-tonne (or even 3-tonne) 4WD trucks is to blame, but why aren't these vehicles taxed back to the margins where they belong? And why can't the US make a significant move to discourage gasoline use through tax on fuel? It really seems like a crazy situation to a European like myself.
That was classic intercourse!
I can't wait for the Russians to go to the moon.
Spaniards are white Europeans with a little Moorish mixed in... the Moors (sp?) from northern Africa lived in Spain for many, many years. Hispanic is generally considered Spanish and Native American (America being North and South America).
"Generation starship" means that the travel time is longer than human lifetime(s); the passengers at arrival are the (great)*-grandchildren of the passengers at departure. The next feat of engineering on the spacefaring critical path is to build such a generation starship with sufficient resources for a "round trip" in case they have to turn around and come back. Although that is difficult, it is many orders of magnitude easier than terraforming Mars.
Neither the moon nor any asteroid can hold an atmosphere, and thus can not be terraformed. Mars is the best local bet, true, but until our bioligical sciences improve, Mars would still require more trips with more tons of cargo to terraform than is practical relative to extrasolar colonization, unless we can't find any extrasolar suitably terrestrial planets. There is evidence that we probably can, though. Don't shoot first and ask questions later.
actually I think that's not quite right. We left more trash on Afghanistan than on the moon.
Yes, but how much of this was from government-contracted repo men?
[insert witty comment here]
The Declaration is a historical document. "We, the People" means the 55 people who signed it. If you recite it, I suppose I might assume that you hold those truths to be self evident, but that's about it.
The Plege of Allegiance is a pledge. You state right at the beginning that this is what you believe, and also that you will act accordingly. If it isn't, then there's a problem.
No-one focusses on the words after "under God". I see some pretty deep divisions right here.
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E_NOSIG