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Norwegian Government Expires Microsoft Contract
Jeppe Salvesen writes "The Norwegian sites are bristling with the news, and hopefully this will leak worldwide. The Norwegian Government has dropped their contract with Microsoft. Microsoft had an exclusive deal with national and regional government. Administration Secretary Victor D. Norman states that 'we feel that our contract with Microsoft in reality has given Microsoft a monopoly in a field where competition would serve us better.'. My translation. The race is on."
why would governments be against microsoft. Which itself is very usefull software and a easy to use operating system. I mean a government ending a relationship with software that most of its workers use at home seems like a large expense.
Dan Mayer: my blog, essays, art, etc
Localization and language support are going to be an issue here.
There is no 'i' in team, but there is in fiasco...
We have had this posted since Friday morning over at LinuxLaboratory.org. Gotta love slashdot these days.
Great Linux Site
Albeit a good thing, who will actually create competition over there (that is, if they are looking for Norwegian competition)?
My other sig is an import.
De kommer krypende tilbake..
Translation: They'll come crawling back.
The link leads to a document in Norwegian. Anyone care to translate?
There is a short Register article about the same thing here.
But this will only affect upgrades - I doubt that the majority of departments are willing to give up their beloved Windows PC's.
So, if the Norwegian government is run by Microsoft, does that make Bill president/king/tyrant? I guess all our base WAS his anyway...
I can't speak to language support, but DVD playback? It's for government contracts, who needs to watch "The Matrix" when they're supposed to be filling forms out in triplicate? Linux IS ready for the desktop, for me it's been ready since RH 6.0.
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
It would be cool to see a multinational "Knowledge Base" to be used by smaller countries wanting to go this route.
Not as an anti-Microsoft movement, but as a pro-alternative movement.
Don't read this!
The race is on... in Norway.
"And like that
The latest patch to IE no longer allows users to connect to any websites ending in .no for "security reasons". Also, future versions of M$ products will no longer support Norwegian due to "lack of market interest". So how many Linux migrations specialists will Norway be needing in the near future? :-)
I Am My Own Worst Enemy
So, it'd make sense that they'd wish to support local businesses and software, such as Opera, when possible. An exclusive contract with MS might not allow them this freedom.
Linus Torvalds was a Germanic Nordic person before he betrayed Europedom by emigrating;)!
If a goverment, which wants to hunt down all
whales and dolphins in the sea to make tunafish
cans out of them, supports Linux their bad reputation could fall back onto Linux.
What will be the next thing ?
Communist China or the Mafia supporting Linux ?
Ok troll, it's a boring day at work, so I'll bite. Have you ever heard of.. let's say, HP, or IBM, or maybe Red Hat? They'd all be glad to take the call. Do you think Microsoft fielded those calls before? Er, no. See your OEM. Thanks for playing, back to your cave.
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
...Of course, that's the best way...you know, you don't want all of the PR flacks from MS having a chance to spin this in the wrong direction.....or give them a bunch of time to start blackmailing you over license violations....
Remember all the fuss about the German government?....How about Peru? Making such a decision without letting the sales force get involved is prob. a good thing. I imagine that they (MS) would dig up every thing they could find in order to keep everyone in "lock-step" with their goals.....
I hope that this does get played up....now that the decision is made, let the chips fall where they may. I expect that there will be a lot of "surprise" defections and I imagine that they will happen pretty fast.
Not really. I don't know how good Windows Norweigan support is (pretty good I'd imagine) but KDE has been translated into over 40 languages iirc, and many other Linux apps also have Norweigan translations.
You would never be able to tell normally as GNU gettext hides it all from the user.... in fact I just checked, and I have almost 30 norweigan translations on my machine, and I haven't installed any special language packages or anything.
If it's accurate, Norwegian is an extremely verbose language. The article looked like it had about 250 words to me.
--
E_NOSIG
Bush Still Upbeat About Economy ..
..
WASHINGTON (AP) -- President Bush today coupled an upbeat assessment of the economy with a warning to corporate America to ``behave responsibly,'' an attempt to restore investor confidence in the wake of a wave of business scandals.
Bush May Shatter Fund-Raising Record
BIRMINGHAM, Ala. (AP) -- President Bush was on track to demolish his own record for a single fund-raising appearance today, drawing $4 million for Alabama's financially lagging Republican gubernatorial candidate, Rep. Bob Riley. Bush also traveled here to talk about corporate responsibility; Corporations can donate to political candidates in Alabama, a practice that is against federal law.
"The Palladium was a famous theater in London and another in Hollywood, and the name choice makes more and more sense to me as the story develops about Microsoft's computer security initiative of the same name. It certainly felt like theater, for example, when I received this week a very careful message on the subject from inside Microsoft. It's rare that I hear from any of the troops in Redmond, and the writer's message is an interesting one that made me think a lot -- not just about Palladium, but about the whole power structure behind the protection of intellectual property rights and just where Microsoft fits in. Frankly, I think we're being played for fools. The message follows (with my addition of capital letters where needed).
As a long time reader and watcher, I've always respected your insight. But you should know that you're pretty far off the mark with your recent Palladium commentary. It's basically content creator (be that ISV or copyright holder) driven only, and Microsoft only provides the infrastructure to let that happen. Obviously, I cannot comment on internal issues, but this public interview sums it up pretty accurately [cites a URL that you'll find is the first "I Like It!" entry this week]. Especially the following (an interview with Palladium product manager Mario Juarez published in Digital ID World):......
But hey, this is just Microsoft you say. Microsoft doesn't envision anything so diabolical. And I agree with that statement simply because I don't see Microsoft as a company having much vision at all. That's why it is possible for Palladium to be devised exactly as Mr. Juarez says, from the bottom up for purely altruistic reasons. In fact, I am sure that is how it happened. But then one day somebody near the top of Microsoft realized that what they had was a way of taxing the world, and suddenly, Palladium became strategic for Microsoft.
Now maybe I am a crackpot. And if I am, then you'll be able to take apart everything I have just written, point by point, showing how crazy it is. Please do. I'm waiting.
And I'm still waiting.
As a footnote here, I did a Google search on my writer from Microsoft, and found that he had submitted comments to the Department of Justice asking that Microsoft be dealt with leniently in the penalty phase of the current anti-trust trial. While the writer described himself to the DOJ as an "entrepreneur," he did not identify himself as a Microsoft employee. How entrepreneurial of him! I wonder how many of the positive comments received by the DOJ came from such closeted Microsoft people?
Now back to Palladium. One aspect of this story that really amazes me is the role of the recording, broadcasting, and film industries, which are accorded far more prestige than I think they deserve or that they would receive from Microsoft on a normal day. This is a company, remember, that is consistently acused of stealing intellectual property and has been found guilty of doing so. There is no respect for intellectual property rights that I can see there. Beyond Bill Gates's extensive video collection of Audrey Hepburn movies, I don't think the movie business makes much difference to Microsoft. It's all about the money."
see also: The horrors of becoming involved in some whoreabull phony payper
Don't you just wonder sometimes how Bill Gates or Steve Ballmer or someother hight Microsoft exec must feel when news-lines like this come out? Everyone is starting to bail on them now, they're locked in a conflict with both the opensource community, the mac people, the DOJ and the ever increasing amounts of world governments looking for alternate solutions. I mean, they gotta be feeling (by now) that things are starting to fall apart and it looks like they're grasping with everything they have to keep above the flood that we are starting to see the beginning trickles of now. They arn't going to go down without a fight, but you gotta figure that they're allready makeing plans for a hastey retreat, oh well...at least those high up might get out of this with a fair amount of money.
Okay, lets see. They realized they wernt getting the cost-savings they could have in a truely robust, competative market. So they are biting the hand of their drug dealer.
And then everybody complains - hey, they're the only ones that sell suitable drugs! Well, DUH - because nobody's bothered asserting their desire to purchase drugs from another dealer.
Has the concept of 'investing in your future' totally gone out the window? Short term pain, long term gain? Hello, is anybody listening to how stupid people sound when they're saying that MS is the only suitable thing? Isn't it self-evident that the kind of attitude like, "Well, what else is there," is *why* there isn't much else in terms of choice?
On what planet do people live when they think, for some reason, MS is the only company *capable* of producing an OS with the 'ease of use' Windows has?
(As an aside, but related to the 'Well, what else can they use' quotes, does ANYONE realize how much sweeter life would be had MS not been able to squeeze beOS out of existence?)
"Old man yells at systemd"
Lets see... who you gonna call when Open Source stuff breaks? IBM? HP/Compaq? Sun? Redhat? SuSE? Caldera? One of the thousands of consultancy companies that would love to sell you time? And, you know, if one of them wont solve it, you can call another one.
So... who you gonna call when Microsoft stuff breaks and Microsoft refuses to fix it? The DOJ?
That is exactly why you should not have an exclusive contract with one supplier. When you only have a hammer, every problem looks like a nail. Diversity allows different solutions for different problems.
To the extreme!
P.S. The lameness filter is lame
That they're dropping MS all together? Or are they dropping the "exclusiveness" that they had with MS only?
The difference being that in the first case they're agreeing to stop using MS completely, while the second case would mean that they could continue using MS products, but would open the door for using other alternatives (Apple, Linux, etc)..
Anyone to clarify?
Microsoft dropping an exclusive contract with Microsoft is going to do little to increase competition, for desktops, anyways, because there's nothing out there to compete with their desktop software. KDE and GNOME are poor substitutes for the Windows desktop, which is not saying much at all. What alternatives are there for Office ? StarOffice, KOffice, and OpenOffice are still miles away. And let's not forget the many sites that won't be viewable under Netscape/Mozilla/Konqueror/Opera.
I'm not saying I'm happy with this, and nobody would be happier to see Windows eradicated from the desktop, but that's our present unhappy state, and Norway's move isn't going to do anything to fix a problem that has been 10 years brewing. Heck, Microsoft has had a near hegemony in desktop software for AT LEAST 7 years, and it's only getting stronger.
Babelfish translation of the article
Er, have you tried Ogle? Menus and everything. See also xine. From an options standpoint, I couldn't even find a free DVD player for Windows...
Or do they go...Open Source ? Who you gonna call when stuff breaks?
Um, how about any of hundreds of enormously competent consulting firms who specialize in open source, have competitive rates, actually answer the phone and can actually fix the problem rather than tell you to wait for a service pack which may or may not do the job.
I will not buy this record, it is scratched!
What this really does is show that governments/corporations are seeking to allowing themselves a chance to select from a number of options instead of just blindly choosing a Microsoft solution.
That is the blind zealotry you should be speaking of.
The nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. - ast
This is a computerized translation so I can't promise anything ... plus I don't speak Norwegian :)
Commonwealth said up Microsoft - agree Commonwealth has said up agreement along with Microsoft as donated dataselskapet ace at to contribute shareware at computers at statlige offices. Debattcentralen: Neat and IT work and Ad administrasjonsminister Overcome D. Norman H ) considers contract of sale along with Microsoft has been adverse. He believing bigger competition able afford cheaper dataløsninger both for commonwealth and consumer. We fancy that it agreement we have had along with Microsoft in actuality rendered Microsoft a monopoly of a ambit how we're served along with to a few competition , say Norman at NRK. Norman believing denunciation at agreement along with Microsoft not only that shall afford cheaper dataløsninger , but also qualitative better solutions. (NTB)
Sorry? Poor language support? Every third screenshot I see of Linux is in a language I don't even recognise. Some Linux apps have been translated into a huge number of languages. Also, remember that this is open source we're talking here - apart from the fact that many Norweigans talk fluent English, they can always translate the programs themselves. It's normally pretty trivial.
DVD options - hello, this is a government contract? They don't need DVD support, and if they did, well they could have it anyway. Getting DVDs on Linux is basically a 2 step process now: install Xine, install a DeCSS plugin. That's it.
Add to that the known problems it has on the server end and you have a recipe for disaster.
Please elaborate. I can't think of any off the top of my head, in fact I believe Samba performs almost as well as Windows NT if your thinking about Windows integration.
MS could do something like this. They refused to make an Icelandic version of Windows. They could easily drop Norwegian support in Windows and tell them to use the Swedish version out of spite.
Sun's famous slogan was:
.NO(rway)."
"Sun: We put the DOT in DOT-COM".
Now Microsoft has a choice for new slogans:
"Microsoft: We put the NO in
or
"Microsoft: We put the NO WAY in NOrWAY."
Also, one would imagine that for what Norway was paying the Evil Empire, they could hire more than enough engineers to perform whatever modifications need to be performed to bring Linux up to their requirements.
It seems to me that most governments would do more for furthering the independence from proprietary software by increasing dependence on open standards. For instance, if I were President for a day (mwahaha!), the first thing I woudl do is issue an executive order stating that no agency, department or NGO may use .doc formatted texts. Where documents are purely text, they must be sent in plain ASCII or rtf formats. Suddenly the "need" for Word is lessened considerably. Need spreadsheets? Send tab-delimited files everywhere. I don't have all the details worked out but it seems to me the reason why governments and the like are so dependent on MSFT is because they are dependent on what the software produces not how the software performs.
Besides, I doubt norwegian translations are a necessity for servers/infrastructure, which is where I would believe most of the change would happen at first.
I began to be really proud to be from Europe, not just for this one, for all other coutries too.
I think that Europe could be a hard candy to swallow for DRM (at least part that had supported that is now really big). I just hope that all other coutries would join and show us all this new EU community and maybe there is a hope that "1984" won't happen' ever.
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
I'm sure expire is an intransitive verb: things expire, but you can't expire something. So the heading should be "Norwegian Government Allows Microsoft Contract To Expire".
The article is translated at desktoplinux. http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS6576907451.html
Vell, dey got de lyingMonopoly outta de gobernmint, now if dey cud only get de lye outta de fish.
that sounds like a great time... if you visit my website, butthumper.com... er, trollaxor.com, you would already know that I love to roll in the hay with a young gerbil such as yourself.
-trollaxor
We use Microsoft software in work. Who did you say we can call when stuff breaks? For free? Cool, what's the number?
Who you gonna call when stuff breaks? Your sysadmin, or maybe your software vendor, if you have a support contract. Other companies know about providing end user support as well, you know.
Because I am a mature individual, I have been able to resist the temptation to stand, face the general direction of Redmond, waggle my fingers and shout, "Neener! Neener!" (I've resisted so far, but I may break down at any time.) Also, I'm trying not to mail a dozen cans of pickled herring to Bill Gates.
as soon as productivity goes down because of users not being able to figure linux out they will ink a new contract. (unless they are planning on going out and swapping out their machines for Macs)
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
... After you go through me first, you little pissant. I'm surprised you had time to even post a message, considering you're usually sucking some anonymous guy's cock all time.
As I suggested about a week ago, in a hundred years nobody will even remember Microsoft. It's a one-product company. They might as well be selling slide rules. You do all remember the slide rule? No? Hmmm... ;o) [hint: +5 (funny)]
Does anyone here seriously think that if they had any real creativity they'd have to try and play their silly little monopoly game like latter day Rockefellers? [hint: +3 (inciting)]
Hic iacet Arthurus, rex quondam rexque futurus.
Localization and language support are going to be an issue here.
I don't know -- most Norwegians speak English better than we do.
Having said that, KDE at least is pretty well internationalized.
Steve
Language support is not going to be an issue. Norwegian uses the same 8-bit character set that English and German do, Latin-1. All software in Debian has been 8-bit clean since Hamm's release in 1998, so they can all handle Latin-1. To the best of my knowledge, there's no Un*x system on the market that can't handle Latin-1.
Thats eexactly what the EU are planning to do...
Hopefully they'll set up a 3rd world and common wealth inititive with there sharing.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Why, oh why can't I live in Norway?
Steve
Of course they're going to field those calls. They have to. No Open Source OS/software package is simple enough to be unleashed on the user, outside of server side stuff.
Also, that's where these companies plan to make a killing.
As for me, I'm tired of consultants. Give me software that works and LMTFA. This is why I choose Microsoft.
One Degree of Separation!
Interesting how here on /., when discussing an alternative to MS, the first (and usually only) alternative to be discussed is Linux. As far as a desktop OS is concerned, Apple's Mac OS X may be far better suited to the task. Since the subsystem is very closely based on Open/FreeBSD and hence supports all the "information wants to be free" technologies that Linux does, the real comparison is the user interface.
:)).
... this isn't a flame or a troll, just a commentary.
Now, I have a whole lot of respect for the GNOME and KDE efforts (I have Ximian on my laptop and KDE on one of my desktops), but they've got a ways to go to reach OS X's level of ease-of-use. I believe OS X is also localized in Norwegian, but I could be wrong on this count (if I am wrong, then that's a good reason to discount OS X
Apple's no longer *just* for creatives, designers, writers, etc. It is (at its core) a highly productive and functional operating system built on a highly stable and powerful subsystem. With OS X, you can *get things done*. For the novice computer user, OS X can be a good deal more intuitive than either Windows OR any of the Linux UIs.
*sigh*
Cheers.
not because windows is failing. i dont think they ever will. but they are upset that htey wont be the only game in the world.
and if you thing all the government does is fill out forms and crunch numbers you are a fucking fool
Give me a break. I don't want a 15 year old, punk ass kid handling my corporate problem. Open Source will never compete with Microsoft until it grows up.
Aren't you confusing Language and character set here? Just because it handles the character set correctly does not mean that the GUI elements are translated.
Why not let the people already interested in Linux break the chain. It's not like there aren't any.
Link to The Norway Post's story.
Its one thing when people are free to individually buy or not buy a Microsoft OS.
Its another when their governments FORCE them to pay for Microsoft products.
I wonder how much of the $40 billion Microsoft has stashed away are tax dollars?
Why are you watching DVD's at work?
Anyways, just rip them and compress them into a format you can watch.
Everytime I here people say stuff this "KDE and GNOME are poor substitues for the Windows desktop" it makes my stomach tighten a little. It's not true.
Maybe KDE or GNOME have their problems. But as long as I can kick off a mail reader, web browser, word processor, and a spreadsheet, the "desktop" software doesn't really matter that much for 99% of users.
As much as people talk about how they can't live without MS tools, I used "vi" for all my document editing for years. I think most people could get along with star office, or other Linux based tools just fine if that's what they were given.
People always talk about file attachments, and interoperability, claiming they need to have Word because everyone else uses it. The neat thing about being a gov't is that you get to set the standards. If you want to deal with the gov't you've got to follow their rules. No Words attachments allowed!
At home I've gotten so annoyed with every piece of SPAM that want's to load web pages over my slow modem, that I now read all my mail on Linux using balsa. It doesn't load HTML by default. I use Netscape and Opera for surfing, and occasionally will run IE of some page won't work right on Netscape. That doesn't happen very often.
For 99% of work place users Linux would be just fine in my opinion. A few will need to run apps that don't have good enough Linux analogs. But that would be few.
Home is a different story. People want to be able to buy, install, and run shrink-wrapped software. People don't wan't to have to hire a UNIX guru to administer their home PCs.
I figured it would have been Finland (link) cutting the Microsoft handcuffs first! Home of Linus Torvalds, no?
Comment removed based on user account deletion
linux would work on all the existing infrastructure and hardware they already have.
To switch to OS X they'd have a HUGE Capital Outlay to replace all their x86 PC's with iMac's and G4's. It would cost them far more to do that switch, that it would cost them to just keep using Windows.
I believe OS X is also localized in Norwegian, but I could be wrong on this count
Apple's site in Norwegian. I would think that Norwegian is one of the languages given this site. I'm also making the assumption that this truly is Norwegian, and not one of the other Scandinavian languages that all closely resemble each other. I want to say that Norsk, Dansk and Svensk were listed as languages, but I don't have a copy of OS X in front of me to verify.
It would be very good for Apple to jump on this and push their solutions.
This doesn't mean that everyone in Norway is going to suddenly start running Linux or power up an imac. What it does mean is that government and schools will now have a choice. Under the agreement with Microsoft they didn't which is pretty much the way Microsoft likes it.
The PR fallout from this could hurt Microsoft more than the actual loss of the contract. We should use this event to generate as much publicity as we can.
The more people that hear that entire governments are starting to shed the Microsoft yoke of monopolistic tyranny the better chance we have of convincing them that Microsoft isn't the only viable game in town.
The race isn't always to the swift... but that's the way to bet!
The Rise of Parliament: Studies in Norwegian Parliamentary Government
Pretty standard really.
Microsoft however probably doesn't want to loose their monopoly (even if we're just four million people). Norwegian translations of Windows have been ...questionable... at times, especially for "New Norwegian", an officially recogniced dialect counted as a second language (though I've been out of the windows league for a while, haven't checked recent conditions). Therefore, I think Microsoft will boost support for Norwegian software out of fear of loosing a nation (which would be a bad example for the rest of their world), and businesses/departments will keep using Windows out of fear of retraining their workforce.
I will, off course, continue my subtle penguin missionaries... Maybe some day
The country has 4.5 million people - so how big is the government contract? I was looking for that number when the main website for the Norwegian civil service union crashed. Go figure. At any rate it can't be very large. I'm all for actions like this but this in no way spells doom for MS.
Since there is no viable alternative out there for the average joe-user, this just means the Norwegian government will be paying higher licensing fees (ie. they won't get the bulk-discount bargain they have been getting for agreeing to put it on all desktops), and M$ will be making more money.
/. isn't interested in hearing points of view that aren't pro-linux...
Sure, mark me as a troll,
I wonder if this is some sort of large scale tactic to push Microsoft into giving the government a better deal on renewing all the software costs? Microsoft's new renewal based licensing schemes are pounding business for a lot of cash. Does anyone else think this sounds like a strategy to have Microsoft beat down this gov't door with a "special offer" on pricing so they don't choose the competition?
... [Insert decent Sig]
Funny how legitimate questions get modded down. No wonder you anti-Microsoft people are so unsuccessful in life. You're faaaaaar too worried about the inconsequential stuff in life.
If this is how you level the playing field, then I pity you.-
Aren't you confusing Language and character set here?
No. He asked about localization and language support. Localization is the process of translation, and was answered by other people. Language support is if you can use the language. It's more than character set, but not only does Linux have the character set down, it also has Norwegian keyboards and ample Latin-1 fonts.
I'm waiting for MS to retaliate and have a headline come out saying "Norwegian Government Expires."
Outdoor digital photography, mostly in New Engl
This is great news. Things like this do nothing but good for both sides of the "race".
Microsoft doesn't have to care about foreign governments in the long run. The world economy is dominated by American money and American companies. Foreign companies that want to be more than a tiny, localized entity need to do business with Americans and American companies. As long as the US Government sticks with Microsoft, any American company with any serious plans to ever make it big time will have to work with Microsoft products, or at least stay compatible.
Other nations can stand up against the foreign monopoly all they want, but unless they can restrain serious international commerce, Microsoft is going to be around until the US Government kicks it out.
Why dont you expand the timeline and look at the real story.
But that same punkass 15yr old kid just hacked into your MS system..
which side of him would you rather see?
The greatest right given is the right to be wrong...
One of the thousands ? That's Open Source's problem. No central figure. I don't need support for each individual application. I need enterprise support. No one can do that better than Microsoft.
Wouldn't it be interesting if, in ten years' time, open source solutions were the standard by which European governments operate?
Blue skies, Barthy Burgers, girls...
Actually, FWIU there *is* something wrong with .doc. Again, this is all gleanings, but to sally forth into the darkness:
.doc has none of those three attributes. If it did, someone would have created really good .doc import/export filters by now, not just almost-decent ones. There are some stories about that .doc is not even documented inside Microsoft, rather that there is a 'reference implementation' of source code.
.doc format appears to be engineered largely to force users to upgrade.
.doc.
"Good" protocols are things like telnet, smtp, etc. They are simple, straightforward, and discoverable. It seems that
A "good" file format, from a technical perspective, would have offered much better compatibility between revisions. The
I'd say that there are some intrinsic problems with
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Bjork's Icelandic Moron...
MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
Norway is a small country (4 million people), and not very much is translated into Norwegian. For instance, you will rarely find dubbed movies here (just subtitled).
As a result, most norwegians understand english fairly well (even if they dont speak/write it very often).
The characterset used to be a problem (like 7-8 years ago), but isnt any problem today (For the special interested, norwegian have three special characters: æøå).
Most people I know like to use english versions of programs (instead of risking new bugs/misunderstanding resulting from low budged translations).
Internationalization is always important, but it is actually of less importance in Norway, than in most other european countries.
I posted this story last week, but it was rejected. Mod me down, please.
I have noticed this too, but I tend now to include Mac OS X in the *nix, or *ux categories. The writers may not intend this, and perhaps will flame the idea, but I think it is essentially valid. In my mind OS X is a proprietary unix based kernel with a proprietary window manager and GUI built on top of it. In the Linux world you can take the previous, replace "proprietary" with "open source" and OS X with Linux or other equivelency and it fits like a white sequenced glove.
From now all departments and gov't offices will have to negotiate their own deals with MS.
This will make it easier for smaller competitors to enter the gov't arena.
Linux is one possible choice as it runs on existing hardware, though the expected outcome is that depts and offices will begin evaluating/choosing alternative windows applications from MS competitors.
MS has not been the only choice for some time.
A project called Skolelinux (Linux for schools) has been underway for some time. (based on Debian with KDE/Gnome). This project has been in the news on several occasions and has also received a grant from the Norwegian ministry for Research and Education (nov/2001)
Personally I think it will take some time before any changes are noticable.
Desktops will not change much, maybe a few new competing window apps.
(StarOffice or Opera maybe?)
Servers are the biggest bet, where you don't have to re-educate the entire staff.
mork .no /. reader
a
Oooooh weeee. A genuine script kiddie. Man, that's impressive. Excuse me while I yawn.
Kjempe
it fits like a white sequenced glove.
I think you meant to type 'sequinned glove.'
And if so, be careful, as those sequins can damage soft, delicate rectal tissue.
You must have grown up in a really nice and technology inclined area of the world, cause even here in Southern California, where I've lived my entire life, is just not placing computers with Windows in their classrooms and labs.
I remember using Mac's in school for the majority of my time (from grade school on up through High School). If this chain were true, why am I not a Mac user? If I had any experience w/ DOS and/or Windows, or PC's for that matter, it was because of outside influences and/or work.
Though this 'Chain' will be correct in select areas, it's not the reason that linux can't get a break, nor breaking this 'chain' will cause Linux to spring forward and become the new fad that everyone must have. It's still missing a lot of things that windows offers, and it's not just going to become everyones OS's of choice just cause Governments want to switch over to it.
Unless Linux wants to push toward cloning the Windows Interface and have it react as windows does (From how a user can just turn the machine on, and 20 seconds later they can sign onto AOL, to just double clicking to install updates to the system itself.), it will never break the chain.
Linux's real problem lies in the people, and unless it can provide an environment that will allow even the most illiterate user to be able to function as they would within a windows environment, all linux will continue to get is elitest's, rebels and us uber-geeks that are willing to learn something new. And contrary to popular belief, we aren't as large in numbers compared to the amount of people in the world who just prefer to read their email than know how that email travelled to them.
======
Talk sense to a fool and he calls you foolish. - Euripides
Let's assume that the Norweigan government want to junk Windows, and have 1000 machines that they wish to junk it from. The average price of a Mac (taking the mean of all the different models) is about £1000. I don't know what that is in Kroner (?), but that comes to a cool million quid. For what? New hardware, that they don't need.
A million pounds! That's about 1.5 million US dollars I think. That's a lot of taxpayers cash.
And before somebody rants off about how it'd cost a million dollars to support Linux, I'd like to dispell this myth that somehow nobody needs to support or administer Macs. People say "they are so easy to configure, Linux is hard". But you don't want users reconfiguring network terminals anyway, so that isn't an issue. "Software installation is hard". Ditto. All the stuff that they need, ie writing office documents, browsing the net, checking email etc Linux does just fine, and more importantly, does it without the HUGE cost of rebuying Microsoft Office (I read $500 somewhere, which is also crazy). For organisations that already have computers, Macs are uneconomic, and no amount of guesswork based on TCO will change that. Period.
Arguably telnet and smtp are terrible protocols. They're so simple they're dangerous. Telnet is open to sniffing and smtp's lack of authentication is the reason why spam rules the net. According to your criteria ssh or secure pop would not be a very good protocols.
That's why you sign an enterprise support agreement with a single vendor. And if they cant or wont solve it you can go to someone who can.
No one can do enterprise support better than Microsoft? Lol. You must not have much experience with enterprise level support. Microsoft isnt even in the running for 'best'. They're not quite the worst, but most larger vendors outclass them, with speed, willingness to help and competence.
At least they've got a web browser ready to go in place of IE. Any other home-grown Norwegian software solutions?
Constitutionally Correct
In other news, Microsoft Lawyers initiated a hostile corporate take-over of the Norwegian government. "I guess we will continue running Windows", was the only comment from the Norwegian Prime Minister. Microsoft declined comment when asked about their "Embrace and Extend" strategies.
That's one of the first things I thought of when reading the article. Why not Macs? The Norwegians seem more interested in competiveness, quality, and price than open standards or free software. This simply leaves them open to mixed environments and the ability to buy and use whatever software they please.
Concievably they could still be 100% MS. Though something tells me MS licensing fees are probably a good reason to ditch MS servers.
at least their starting to get rid of their os'es ... the ultimate would be if they just got rid of all their computers.. what's with all this hype about (in an authorative voice) "THE INTERNET"... and "TECHNOLOGAMY" .. governments don't need computers, they're all just suckered in by people's needs to have some sort of gadget to play with during their long boring unproductive days.. and they have to have sometthing to blame the traffic on... OH THE TRAFFIC CONTROL NETWORK WAS DOWN.. yeahhh that's it... i mean... have you ever met a politician that knew how to do ANYTHING COMPUTEREY?
i didn't think so... match point.
People here seems really narrowminded. Just because Norwegian government drops the exclusive MS contract doesn't mean that they are going to wholesale convert to Linux.
It just means putting the best solution for a specific job, like an Oracle db on Sun servers, or Apache as the webserver etc. And yes, maybe even Linux or *BSD on their fileservers. Maybe standardize on Opera as their browser (since it is a Norwegian company)
I seriously doubt the desktop will change much.
Je ne parle pas francais.
Bahahah, and today I have no mod points. Sorry dude!
No, they don't have 'that sinking feeling'. Microsoft has $40 billion IN THE BANK. They can probably run their company from the interest and growth in their investments alone. As much as you may not like it, Microsoft is not going anywhere. They probably don't really need anyone to even buy their products for them to stick around.
The catch, of course, is that they're not stupid. Regardless of how much money they have, they are still going to try to make products that sell and that they can make a profit on. They are also still going to find new ways to market their products as "essential".
And all the while the cash they have on hand will grow and grow. The only way to get rid of that kind of money would be to give it away or devalue the very currency that it is being kept in (gold I imagine?) Fortunes like that only die with governments and countries - and that ain't happening any time soon.
Switching to Apple's Mac OS X normally doesn't get you an alternative to MS, though. You'll get MSIE, probably pick up MS Office so you'll get MS Word, Excel, etc. So really, Apply is not an alternative to MS.
Now, that said I am not sure what other office suites currently work in Mac OS/X, perhaps there really are some good alternatives. Also, i'm not criticising Apple here, from what I've seen I quite like their OS.
Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia.
I'm familiar with Norsk, Svensk and Dansk.
The site is plain, vanilla, Bokmaal Norsk. That's standard Norwegian, for you who don't snakke Norsk.
I'ts been my experience that Linux also has very good Norwegian support; it seems that Apple isn't too far off, either. Couple that with the fact that most Norwegians must learn English in school, and they have access to satellite TV where the content is predominantly English, I'd say that, even if an OS's Norwegian localization isn't perfect, that wouldn't be a barrier to adoption.
Interesting how here on /., when discussing an alternative to MS, the first (and usually only) alternative to be discussed is Linux. As far as a desktop OS is concerned, Apple's Mac OS X may be far better suited to the task.
... you simply had the good luck to be the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.
... usually in its easy-to-install Mandrake incarnation).
This is not meant as a personal attack, nor is it meant to imply that you personally belong to what appears to have become the Slashdot Division of Apple. It is intended to point out what appears to be a recent trend of Apple astroturfing, consisting of numerous posts which yours resembles to some degree. You are by no means the worst offendor in this regards
This is a free software/open source forum. Why on earth would you expect people who are concerned not only with technical superiority, but also freedom to advocate the substitution of one master (Apple) for another (Microsoft), when their are alternatives like FreeBSD and GNU/Linux that offer both freedom and technical superiority?
With all these "don't talk about Linux, talk about Apple OS X" posts I've seen recently I'm beginning to suspect that the Microsoft Slashdot Division another post alluded to has been joined by the Apple Slashdot Division. Frankly, astroturfing by both sides is insulting to the intelligence of any critical thinking mind, not to mention irritating as hell. And I say that as someone who will recommend Apple over Microsoft to those of my friends who are really technically illiterate (to the semi-literate I will recommend GNU/Linux
The Future of Human Evolution: Autonomy
I dunno man, I don't think life would be much sweeter if beOS still existed. I mean c'mon, just look at the name... "BeOS"? What the fuck kind of name is that?
Wow, I run Be Operating System! LOL? What in the hell? Be OPERATING SYSTEM?
Okay! Whatever THAT'S supposed to mean!
Watching stoires like this and the handling of them by MS PR machien wil no doubt clue you into why MS is slated to have decreasign sales in the world market for the next 10 years..
THe demographics are changing, it used to be that the US sector was the fastes growing pc market..no longer.
With the Asia, African , and European markets poised to exceed sales when compared to the US market of PCs..MS needs to heed and take notice that they are no longer the ones calling the shots.
THe fastes gwoing markets right now for linux are Africa and China.. no its not a joke..
If I were more involed in LInux open source right now I would start leanring a foreign language like chineese or one of the African languages it will come in handy!
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Harware will need to change anyhow, eventually. A slow migration to OS X is entirely possible and a legitimate option. As for the software being proprietary, to some extent, you're right. The GUI is proprietary, but the guts are far from it. Also, the system has been hailed as one of the easiest to develop for, which should save money in the long run. My main point was simply that for the end-user, Mac OS X is a far better bet than Linux. Linux isn't ready for the desktop yet, period. I use it practically every day and I keep everything updated as best I can. Even so, I'm far more productive on my iMac than on my Linux systems. C'est l'avi. Someday, I'm sure Linux will be ready. When it is, we'll have at least three world-class operating systems to compete on the desktop. Maybe, by then, we'll all be able to work with each other as well. As it is, OS X plays nicest with existing infrastructure and is easiest to use. That's all.
This Victor D. Norman guy actually has a Ph.D from 1971, is a professor, and has studied at Yale University and Massachusetts Institute of Technology... Perhaps he knows what he's doing?
Nah, probably not. In half a year, Microsoft will tighten the rope around our govt's neck, forcing them to pay twice the licensing fees they pay now.
Not really. You combine the disadvantage of Windows (being dependent on a ignorant, incompetent and foreign corporation, primitive GUI (Yes, everything that has only one desktop is primitive. Don't get me started on only one mouse-button. And it's slow, too. And the dock is optimized for demoability, not usability.)) and Linux (having to port many Win32-applications) plus you add in costs for exchanging all hardware which is also a lot more expensive.
If you can come up with real examples what KDE/Linux does wrong, post it, but the arrogant, ignorant statement "they've got a ways to go to reach OS X's level of ease-of-use." just doesn't cut it.
I really get the impression that it doesn't matter what Apple does, just anything will be declared to be user-friendly.
P.S.: Yes, I have a Mac.
>Interesting how here on /., when discussing an alternative to MS, the first (and usually only) alternative to be discussed is Linux.
With mucho reason in this case!
>As far as a desktop OS is concerned, Apple's Mac OS X may be far better suited to the task.
Oh really? What the fsck are you talking about?
For the Norwegian government - let's stay on topic boys and girls, mkaaay? - that would make absolutely NO sense!
Why, you ask?
Becooooze, not only would they be moving from one proprietary sh*t to another, but they would have to replace all their fsking hardware!
Now that wouldn't be very cost efficient, would it? Plus, even if they did feel the need to change their aging PCs for brand new G4s (which they would pay twice the price of equivalent PC hardware), they would then be stuck with Apple.
Yay! That doesn't seem much better to me than Microshaft!
Oh, and please, don't say that they could always move to Yellow Dog, or something... Please?
HAND!
l'Abruti
You can run Omni several other fine browsers on OS X, not just MSIE.
I believe that StarOffice is also being ported to OS X, and AppleWorks is there (poor compatibility).
Besides, there's no law that sez you have to avoid all MS products - it's perfectly legit to pick and choose. There's no better Office compatible product than Office:Mac.
Norwegian Gofernment cancels Microsoft contract [Aftenposten]
Jul. 12, 2002
Dis Norwegian news item reports ze cancellation Uff a Microsoft contract to delifer software for gofernment-related systems droughout Norway. Dis report appeared in ze Norwegian newspaper, Aftenposten, today. A rough translation undt link to ze original news article Ist profided below . . .
(headline)"Norwegian Gofernment cancels Microsoft contract"
(article genau, lead) "De gofernment has canceled ze contract mitt Microsoft, an agreement gifingkt genau, ze software company exclusife rights to delifer software for public office computers."
"De Minister Uff Labour undt Gofernment Administration, Fictor D. Norman(H) says procurement agreement mitt Microsoft has been sub-optimal. Accordingkt to Norman, a higher degree Uff competition could gife cheaper software solutions bod Norway zero points for ze gofernment undt for consumers."
"'Ve dink dat ze Microsoft agreement in reality has gifen Microsoft a monopoly in JA HANSI, JA, an area where we are better serfed by introducingkt competition." says Norman Norway zero points to NR-r-rK (National State-owned TF station).'"
"In Norman's fiew, ze cancellation genau, Uff ze agreement mitt MS will not only gife cheaper computer solutions but also better quality solutions."
R-r-read full story
R-r-related stories:
Great, just what we need. As if Microsoft wasn't bad enough, you want to go to a closed hardware source too!?
Moderation: +4. Modded 70% Funny and 30% Overrated. 100% Saturated.
Interesting you should mention this. Language could actually be a factor in FAVOUR of dropping Windows. Norway actually have TWO written forms, Windows only comes in one of them (as far as I know, someone might correct me on this one). Whereas both GNOME/KDE is well on their way into be translated into both of them.
And if this wasn't enough, we have a lappish minority in the north of Norway, and I bet it'd be quite hard to convince Microsoft into making a version for THAT.
For Linux, situation might be a little different. It's much simpler for the norwegian government to hire someone to do translations of Linux softwate, much of it which uses gettext, and is easily translatable. Not to mention that a project, Skolelinux (Linux for schools, see http://www.skolelinux.no/) has that as one of their stated goals, and are working on exactly that.
So, language might be an argument against Windows and FOR free software.
Hey, I'd love to give OS-X a try. And if it were $200-300 to try it out and write some exploratory apps for it, I'd snap it up in a heartbeat.
But trying it out doesn't cost two or three hundred dollars. It costs two or three thousand. Yeah, I know, the eMac is inexpensive hovering around $800, but it's far too slow, comes with a monitor that's too small, a keyboard that I can't seem to make friends with, and a mouse with one-third the number of buttons it should have. Apple also seems to provide only set bundles: This machine comes with these accessories, period. I'd like to make the cost/performance tradeoff decisions myself and pick my own combination of components.
In short, there doesn't seem to be a way to give OS-X a fair shake without spending a farkload of money.
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
Actually, KDE has more support for Norwegian than MS and Apple. There are two flavours of Norwegian -- bokmål and nynorsk (for historical reasons. This has something to do with the fact that Norway was in a union with Denmark until 1814). MS does not want to support the latter one, as it's the least used of the two (well, there is a spellchecker for Word, but no localisation). In addition, there is a small sami speaking population, supported with keymaps for X11 and hopefully translations for KDE sometime in the future (it has some support in Skolelinux, the Linux in schools project).
Interesting how ... when discussing an alternative to MS, the first ... alternative to be discussed is Linux. ... Apple's Mac OS X may be far better suited to the task.
Oh? When did Apple announce MacOS X availability for the x86 architecture? Considering that all those desktops are running Windows, replacing them with Linux is minimal cost, but replacing with MacOS would require replacing all the hardware, too.
I agree, Apple's approach to the UI layered on top of a Unix makes for a very nice desktop. Too bad it's only available on very proprietary hardware. Locking one's self into Apple may not be quite as bad as locking in to Microsoft -- but it's still locking yourself in. Mink-lined handcuffs are still handcuffs.
-- Alastair
Peruvian President Toledo - from the same Peru as where the open source software law bill by Dr. Villanueva came from - met today with Mr. WIlliam GAtes, head of Microsoft in Seattle and signed a mutual cooperation agreement (pr lingo for: don't enact the open source to law, and I will give a peanuts handout).
3 0
More in spanish at http://rpp.com.pe/Nacional/detalle.asp?Codigo=690
The person is making a joke about a character on the Muppet Show (it was on TV in the late 70s and early 80s I think). There is a Swedish Chef charcter that says "bork, bork, bork". :)
Shine that beacon of genious at the KDE web site for
a second before you waste our time.
-i18n means the system can accomodate someone
typing in the intended language.
-l10n means most everything is translated into the
intended language.
And yes KDE is ready for Norway and over 40 other
countries.
Not to mention Amiga and cpm.
Man do I wish those were still popular.
whiner
whined
his days
away.
And now analysis from Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chretien:
dey got de lyingMonopoly outta de gobernmint, now if dey cud only get de lye outta de fish.
You need life support, cause you are obviously brain
dead.
I have never understood people that feel they have to
have support from Microsoft. I mean what does that
support truly get you.
-99.5% of all problems are USER ERROR. Get training
or train yourself.
-The other 0.5% of problems are not even on Microsofts
radar screen to fix. ie You are screwed.
-- Get the Microsoft MSDN Library, and a Technet subscription
and you have ALL the support you need.
-Thousands of apps run on a microsoft box that do
NOT come from Redmond. NO CENTRAL FIGURE.
pot kettle black.
Try again some other time fudman.
Legitimate questions only come from people that have a
clue. fudman.
Support from Microsoft?? Have your credit card ready?
-
I never called microsoft for support. What a waste of
money!!!! It was my JOB to know how to admin the system.
Only whiners call for support. Only people that did
not have the experience or the grit to work through
the problem called microsoft for support.
Excuse me. Can I put you on hold?
I'm often amazed at the lack of maturity demonstrated by people who make this claim.
Be never had a viable product offering, their initial business plan tied their wagon to Apple's star and when they were cut loose they floundered.
Not surprising, I guess, but Microsoft had nothing to do with the failure.
Norway is a socialist country with a huge percentage of civil workers. if the government switched to an Open Source solution, a huge percentage of the population would know how to use Linux or BSD or whatever.
"And so it begins..."
.no?)
(The name "Kosh" kinda almost sounds Norwegian,
Okay, so, the Computer Industry is like Earth Gov., right? And Micro$oft are like Psi Corp... or, no, are they the Shadows? This would make Babylon 5 itself like the Bazaar, right, and, um, maybe then Apple employees are Rangers... no, wait... I can figure this out... Is Jobs or Torvalds Ranger 1? And what about RMS??? Gah!!!
I don't think the plan is to replace the hardware...also, compared to OS X, even Windows XP wouldn't be ready for the desktop. I think "ready for the desktop" has become the most meaningless sentence ever. I use Linux on my desktop, therefore it is ready for the desktop. Just because OS X has a nicer GUI (that's debatable) doesn't mean Linux cannot be used in a productivity environment.
;-)
Back in the 80's, end users were stuck with DOS, Lotus 1-2-3 and Wordperfect - and yet they were productive. They knew how to use their computers. Perhaps the learning curve was a bit steeper, but somehow they managed. Have we suddenly all become so stupid that if we don't get enough eye candy we can no longer use a computer? I had a crash course in Maya at my job: that program has so many menus and options and whatnot, it's the opposite of user-friendly - and yet it's still the market leader...I find the trend to "dumb down" computers as much as possible quite disturbing, to tell you the truth. At some point we have to accept that computers must have a minimum degree of complexity if we are to have a good control of how they behave. So the hypothetical grandma can't use it? Well, that's to bad: she can't program her VCR either. But a 12-year old can learn UNIX - for him it's just a game...so why do we care so much about "usability" when the next generation is adapting itself to technology faster than we ever did? To hear the UI fanatics, you'd think that it's impossible for an average user to use Linux (which is totally false, I have had the occasion of testing it more than once). It's as if we were trying to encourage the user to be as lazy as possible...
Oh well, I still think KDE3.02 with Crystal icons and Kermakik style looks nicer and is more usable than Aqua on OS X. Not that I care...
Reminder: find a new sig
>For instance, you will rarely find dubbed movies here (just subtitled).
Isn't that mostly because people in our part of the world (I'm from Denmark) hate dubbed movies, and would much rather watch them with the original sound +subtitles?
So they're about to negotiate a new huge deal and want a little leverage..
"You want how much money for a full government xp-upgrade?"
"You know, there's no way we can spend that much and, btw., we are strongly considering alternative os's too. Just look at all the media talk about it!"
"Please give us your revised offer."
Your can of beans expires. Because it becomes stale. Because it can't be eaten. Your license expires. Because you stop paying.
Your contract is "terminated". "Norwegian Government Terminates Microsoft Contract".
Sheez.
People are missing a major point.
:-) And these licenses have to be bought each year. And for thousands of computers multiplied by number of services that is rather expensive...
:-)
What is more important is that the techies may now chose server software. Like file servers, database servers, web servers, terminal servers, print servers. Things on the client side will probably not change...
Take for instance MS Terminal Server. The actual software is cheep. Then one has to buy a license for each user connected simultaneously. Then for each ip address that connects. The licensing server will count all ip's that view the logon screen... one does not have to log in...
Digitus2001 - a norwegian
You mean; The world economy is faked with American money (that may or may not exist) and American companies (who may, or may not, have profits). Foreign companies that want to be more than a tiny, localized entity need to take a class in shredding and cooking their books to do buisness with Americans and American companies... etc.
In case you hadnt noticed, with the way the American economy is currently heading, foreign customers may turn out to be quite important to Microsoft. You know, the kind of customers whose checks dont bounce.
To do this they'd need to scrap and buy all new hardware though. It'd seem in this case that unless all the *uxes had some horrible flaw or the Macs have some incredible must have feature, *ux would be the way to go assuming they are dumping MS (as opposed to just ending an exclusivity contract.)
and the basis for KDE (and, indeed, current versions of Opera). Qt is Norwegian.
TrollTech especially is becoming a very important player in the software industry. They are at the vanguard of fighting Microsoft in both the desktop space with Qt/KDE and in the embedded space with Qt/embedded and Qtopia (as used in the Sharp Zaurus). They are already a great advertisement for and asset to Norway, and if they can keep it up could easily become one of the most important software companies in the world.
In this light I'm not suprised at all that the Norwegian government is opening up to alternatives. By supporting the local software industry, Norway can a) reduce its imports of foreign proprietary software, b) help increase its exports of software, and c) reduce the reliance on all forms of proprietary software (both TrollTech and Opera are extremely Linux and free software friendly). This adds up to a boost for the Norwegian economy, secures local jobs and increases tax revenues flowing to the government. All in all a big win for Norway.
Let's hope the Norwegians really do take it a stage further and start choosing some of their own software. It's a big leap to make but ultimately the Norwegian people will benefit.
Aktiesamlag, is that when you go to a prostitute and pay her in Stock Options?
This is no about competition, free product will never raise real competition, only domotivate all worthy people to do any new competitive product. If you think that some people will take Linux core and made another Linux OS of their own and then call this competition. Competitors have no hope for any money due to licence, no nearly no motivation. So that's competition, no that's scary!
...there is a *wave* of governments choosing to support open-source, whether in OS or in software. As the Venezuelan minister pointed out most eloquently, the reasons are basically stability and economic - open source software appears to remain more stable, and it encourages local support, development, and innovation within their own economy.
Norway has an amazing tradition of innovation within the software development field. Why wouldn't they choose to support and continue that tradition with positive economic choices?
Amgine
(qualifying statement time)
On my network I run NT4 (2000 seem to dislike some GIS software) on the workstation and linux (redhat 6.2 interanlly, 7.X externally and Slack 8.1 for testing/speed on lower end boxes) and have been slightly vocal about what I'd like to see, personally.
People who do GIS where I work often lament about the lack of "long haul" stability of NT and pine (pun lightly intened) for the Unix days when a process of an entire state can and would run for days to complete w/o a worry.
That thought in mind, if OSX86 came out (or moved to Alpha/Power4) and could run the bulk of the heavy lifting in GIS you bet I'd be pointing out "this could be worlds better than what we have now".
Norway has it right; it is *not* about being against Microsoft, it is about choosing what is the best for the job. And between the decling of Dell's support and annoying NT4/win2k problems that only reformatting take care of, well I'd switch as a (ahem) "way out" because I believe the better product should win, not because I'm an elitest a**hole.
Have you read the moderator guidelines? Well, have you, PUNK? (and I want a Karma: Gnarly option)
Mac X uses different architecture altogether, which means replacing most of the hardware. Also, Macs come at a premium of couple of hundred bucks - doesn't make sense. I haven't used GNOME, but KDE is probably as good as Mac X and definitely better than Win 98.
http://www.aftenposten.no/spesial/bildeserier/arti cle.jhtml?articleID=364553
Microsoft tries to get a new contract
Actually there are secure extensions to both telnet and smtp. The security problem can be separated from the protocol itself, and there are several such implementations. By the same token, with ssh and ssl/tls the same exists. Agreed it's a little tougher to see, once the bytes get encrypted, but the scheme is carefully documented and can be traced *by the authorized parties*.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
Microsoft tries to get a new contract
"Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful committed citizens can change the world, indeed it is the only thing that ever has." -- Margaret Mead
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
If the hardware MuUST change enventually, then why is it that I just bought 12 P133s for my computer lab? www.ltsp.org www.k12ltsp.org
Put identity in the browser.
With mucho reason in this case!
[snip]
Becooooze, not only would they be moving from one proprietary sh*t to another, but they would have to replace all their fsking hardware!
But what you are not considering is that for the machines they already have got, they already have the fucking licenses for MS products. If they are going to choose competitive products, it will be at a time when they can save some fucking money on it, not just to avoid using the products they've already paid for.
So Macs, in this case makes a lot of sense.
Continue using w2k/xp also makes a lot of sense.
Linux on the desktop still doesn't make much sense from a total cost of ownership point of view (which includes training, support, and remotely intelligent admins).
Replacing office with some cheaper or free software suite makes a lot of sense (as long as you can have reasonable import filters).
Using linux servers with samba instead of NT Server or 2k Server also makes a lot of sense. (Especially if you can get a specialized distribution covering those needs well, i.e. not a generic server, but one geared towards samba domain master/fileserver that is easy to administrate for beginners, i.e. webmin, swat, etc preconfigured).
But you will not see anyone removing w2k from all the machines in an office-building just to replace it without linux, unless it is some really twisted secretaries working there...
That's true, but try to sell a wordprocessor that doesn't do proper spelling and grammar checking in both Bokmål and Nynorsk to norwegian government. Or a spreadsheet program that insists on displaying currency in dollars. That will not go well. On the other hand, whether the file-menu is called "File" or "Fil" probably doesn't matter much.
And there's also the problem of having enough good actors to use for dubbing. There isn't that many obvious candidates to choose from, and people might get a bit annoyed about the same person having the voice of three different persons in the same film (in a low-budget dubbing).
If you change to OSX, you swap one company having you by the throat (Microsoft), to two companies having you by the throat (Apple for the hardware and OS X, and, guess who, Microsoft for Mac Office). What a great deal.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
I don't think that localization is THAT big of an issue; they have had norwegian windows since at least version 3.1. One thing I do know though... when I lived there in 6th grade almost all of the kids in my class could speak english well enough to hold a conversation with me and help me learn the language. The reason is that almost all of the television programs that are rebroadcast in Norway are only subtitled, not dubbed. I guess all those old episodes of baywatch were good for something afterall! The beauty of GNU software is that even if it doesn't have gettext or other multi-language support, it is free (as in beer) and thusly very easy for a contracted computer company to translate.
this is the same minister who bought a million dollars' worth of airline tickets from an airline that hasn't started yet, just to make sure he had an alternative to the (partly government-owned) semi-monopoly called Scandinavian.
It'll be fun to see what happens next.
While trying not to bash macs overly, they ARE expensive. Much more expensive than PC's... about 2-3 times the price for the hardware.
Don't forget, this is a government, spending taxpayers money. They can't exactly afford to give everyone a mac, and if they can afford it, they shouldn't, simply because that would be a waste of all the money currently invested in PCs.
The smtp authentication problem is a mnagment issue. X.400 fixed that but it is unworkable on a large enviroment or even small ones.
Given that Trolltech's HQ is in Norway, I would suspect that KDE's support for Norwegian would be fairly good.
Happy Fun Ball is for external use only.
Here's to a Microsoft free Europe!
MSFT market cap $280.5 billion (as of close today)
Norway GDP - $124.1 billion (1999 est.)
Not a productive post but an ear-scratcher.
sig: Keep your stinkin points
Now that MS is no longer given a functional monopoly in Norway, they'll have to shape up in regards to quality and pricing. Or else they'll be losing more contracts. Shops / institutions in Norway with smaller budgets have already started to dump MS albeit very, very quietly.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Don't mod him down just 'cause you hate lutfisk! ;) If the joke went over your head, then don't mod.
Norway does not have to care about american corporations in the long run.
Norway are rich from all the oil money they got saved.
Just saying it like it are.
In contrast to the 30%-50% U.S. taxes, Nordic taxes include free university, free health care, free dental care, a liveable (barely) pension, great public transport, smooth roads, etc. Oh yeah and reasonably safe streets and non-toxic fish. Try *finding* a salmon or trout in the Huron or Grand Rivers, let alone getting one clean enough not to be disposed of as toxic waste. In past centuries, these were great rivers. Stockholm used to be the Calcutta of Europe. The U.S. could profit heavily from learning how they cleaned up.
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.
Of these three, Windows (and MS-Office) supports only one - namely Bokmål. True this is used by 80% of the people or something, but that still leaves 20%. KDE in contrast supports both nynorsk and bokmål, and thereby it supports 98% or more of the people (sami is spoken by quite few)
Especially in schools this is important -- there are laws that say you have in primary school the rigth to get all teaching-material in your language, as this law is today interpreted, this means only books, so Windows is allowed. However, in my opinion it would not be unreasonable to count the programs used on the computers (and the helpfiles) as part of "teaching materials". Afterall, the students are commonly required to use many of these programs, and I don't see what relevance it has that the text is on a screen instead of in a book.
C'est l'avi
C'est la vie
Installing the operating system? No newbie would do that. Installing software? You wouldn't believe how much trouble new users can go through to install a simple program in MS-Win. It is all about teaching them how to do it. It's that simple. It's that complicated.
But please give up the nonsensical claims that some software "just works" for everyone. It doesn't. People need to be taught how to use it. Without exceptions!
Clever signature text goes here.
This post got modded up? By who? CmdrTaco? One mouse button my ass!
1) Mac OS X has turned out to be the best, most reliable and most user-friendly of ALL UNIX distributions.
2) Do you really want me to list all the things KDE/Linux does wrong or rather the ways they have to go to reach OS X level of ease of use ( hah...I can hear your blood boiling from here)?
I could go on about having a CONCISTENT interface being a number one priority. But I'll leave you with just one example: Font-handling.
If your not-really-believable "P.S.; [sic] Yes, I have a Mac." argument got you modded up, I should at least get +1 Insightful on the accounts that:
1) I have a mac
2) I am Norwegian
3) I have first hand experience with Mac OS X since the Public Beta(s) AND I happen to know that it's Norwegian (and in fact any language support) is top notch.
4) I write handy little lists like this
"I tend to think of OS X as Linux with QA and Taste", James Gosling, creator of Java
There is also a project going on to create a distro tailored for Norwegian schools, read about it here.
BTW, the Microsoft deal never applied to the schools, as some imply in other posts. I'm a Norwegian CS student, and thank all applicable deities for not having to use MS... in fact, we use Debian on most of the desktops
Are you a grammar Nazi? I'm trying to improve my English; please correct my errors!
This is a claim, not a fact.
2) Do you really want me to list all the things KDE/Linux does wrong or rather the ways they have to go to reach OS X level of ease of use ( hah...I can hear your blood boiling from here)?
Again, no fact, just an ignorant statement.
I could go on
Baseless claims and ignorance.
Yes, I believe you could go on with that.
Public image of Mac-users
I posted a link to several problems of the MacOS UI.
about having a CONCISTENT interface being a number one priority. But I'll leave you with just one example: Font-handling.
KDE is very consistent. Much more than the mix of MacOSX apps with MacOS9 apps and completele inconsistent designs like Quicktime thrown in.
Regarding fonts, I happily use those who came with my distribution, what's wrong with that? And yes, they include ø and æ.
If the Norwegian government needs some fancy font, I think the Linux-distributor of their choice will happily include these fonts in the install.
Transparency, a mouse optimized for beauty and huge pictures instead of icons slow down productivity. Yes, when you first use a Mac, it's a nice experience, but half an hour later, all the eye-candy just gets into the way.
But we're talking about the Norwegian Government replacing software on existing PCs... unless you have an x86 port of OS X???
To clarify a bit:
The eMac starts at $1,099 while the old iMac starts at $799. To run OS X and write some apps, a 600MHz G3 iMac ($999) is plenty fast enough. What you've written is equivalent to saying that a 1.2GHz PIII isn't fast enough to load up Linux w/ GNOME/KDE and write a few apps. That's bull.
Now, the eMac has a 700MHz G4 processor which is only 233MHz slower than the FASTEST single processor G4 tower (at 933MHz and a cost of $2299). OS X will run considerably faster on the G4, obviously, since it has the Altivec processing unit which OS X makes good (and liberal) use of. However, during basic interaction with the system (such as developing apps) you won't notice a difference between the eMac and a 933MHz PowerMac tower. There's a good chance you won't notice a significant difference between the 600MHz G3, either.
I have a 400MHz iMac DV (Summer 2000) that would list on eBay for about $500 (including OS X, typically) and it runs OS X v.10.1.5 just fine. When I use it for development, I have no issues. I often have BBEdit, XFree86 4.2, xterm, SciTE, Dreamweaver MX or Codewarrior 7, Mozilla, virtual desktops, and the Classic environment with NS4 running simultaneously. Just as I would expect on a Linux system, multi-tasking is a non-issue, tasks run in the background when necessary, responsiveness of the GUI is not affected, etc.
So, yeah, you can experience OS X for not a ton of money. The PowerMac dual-1GHz G4s are not for developers, as much as developers have gotten used to having the fastest possible machines in the PC world (and God knows, I want a dual-1GHz Mac!!). Those machines are workstations meant for video editing professionals. Practically no other user would need that much power, today. At least not as their desktop (maybe as a server, but get an Xserve - its cooler). You don't need it for games, you don't need it for Photoshop, you don't need it for still photography editing or audio editing, e.g.: the entire sound editing for Star Wars, AotC was done w/o a power-horse workstation like that. I believe it was done using a couple machines (for different editing devices, I believe), the most powerful of which was a PowerMac about the speed of the eMac!
What app developer in PC-land needs a dual-2.2GHz P4 system just to run vi/emacs/joe/nedit, etc? Even if you're kernel hacking and doing daily kernel compiles, I doubt you need quite that much power (though I imagine Linus still has that sweet 8-way system of his).
Rambling now, sorry. Basic point is, if you want to experience OS X - there are very inexpensive ways to go about it. Check eBay for private party sales or check various Mac places for refurb'ed systems (Apple's store sometimes lists refurb'ed systems as well).
Mac's was not an option. They want to get something which is cheap and runs on the computers they allready have.
Well, I'm norwegian.
KDE is currently translated in not less than two
different dialects of norwegian which would for a not-norwegian look very like. Thanks to the good translators.
I would say that norwegians generally speek very well english. We have to learn it for 9 years in school and no english tv-programs are translated.
I'm even used to Donald Duck in english!
Either way, a lot of norwegians tend to order english versions of the different operating systems with their pc's.
If you look at the licencing-costs involved running MS-networks and look at how Microsoft are for each year trying to expand their income, how much will you pay next year?
I really like the new OS X, but it would involve changing or buying a lot of new hardware as well. And you may sometime get into licensing-costs with Apple. With Linux you literally get the software more or less free, you pay for the IT- professionals keeping the systems going. And they will be around with Apple, Ms or Linux anyway!
I also feel there is a trend that a lot of programs like CRM, accounting and so on are trying to use web-like systems all the way to ensure platform-independency. Then of course Linux would be just as good or better because of
its stability.
Each user may have loose some time hassling with unfamiliar things for a while, but I guess still winning the time the MS-system was down and for a start period may go even on total time productivity in front of the computer!
Norwegian IT-student living in Germany.
Here.
Regarding fonts you probably never even heard of kerning, leading, baseline and the like. Basically font-handling on any linux distribution is horrible. And admit it, most of it look crap. And if fonts are considered eye-candy by you, than you are probably better off ignorant anyways. Yeah, the Penny-Arcade was ha-ha funny, and in fact I had already read it. Guess I'm not your typical mac-user. The "several problem"-link you submitted is yet another "baseless claims and ignorance" as this statement: The only consistentency in KDE is that it's consistensly bad. And yes, that was trolling. Again. Who mixes Mac OS X apps with Mac OS 9 apps? I could if I had the need, just as much as I can run Windows apps under emulation trowing yet another inconstistant UI into the mix. Or even play games - each with their own inconsistent interface *gasp* The point is that Mac OS X is consistent where it counts: day to day operation. I've yet to meet anyone confused by the brushed metal interface which is only applied to utilities which resembles real-life objects (music-player, movie-player). I don't like it much either, but I can live with it since it doesn't really interfere with my productivity. Transparency, while mostly eye-candy (who says you shouldn't enjoy using your computer?), can also be useful. I'm sure you use transparent terminals yourself. Keeping an eye on what's happening behind menus can be helpful, while I don't notice it in day to day work. I have no idea what you mean by "a mouse optimized for beauty", but it sounds really bad. I happen to know that the mouse-acceleration and accuracy of the Mac OS is unprecedented in "those other OSes".
"I tend to think of OS X as Linux with QA and Taste", James Gosling, creator of Java
Personally, I have no more than "tinkered" with MACs. For the sake of argument, we can assume OSX is the BEST OS out there. There is still a problem - $$. I stick with the PC platform simply because I can pick, choose what pieces and parts I want in it. I have 4 computers in my home, if I bought MACs, the same $ value would be (maybe) 1 and a half computers. I would love to see MAC get in the game and port OSX to x86. It would be very entertaining to watch MAC and WIN go "toe-to-toe".
Work is punishment for failing to procrastinate effectively.