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A Maglev Train System for Florida?
Artifice_Eternity writes "For 20 years, citizens of Florida have been pushing for high-speed rail, as an alternative to the state's ever-growing, yet ever-crowded highways. A previous plan, the Florida Overland eXpress (FOX), was
killed by governor Jeb Bush in 1998. The voters responded by passing a referendum to require the building of a "bullet train," starting by November 2003.
The new
Florida High Speed Rail Authority is focusing first on the busy Miami-Orlando and Tampa-Orlando corridors, but eventually hopes to serve the whole state.
And they are seriously considering maglev technology! If the Florida HSR system did use maglev, it would be the largest one in the world. (Right now, maglev is in use on test tracks in
Germany and Japan, with a 30-kilometer system under construction in Shanghai.)
However, I like this humorous proposal best: it takes the idea of a "bullet train" literally, using the Jules Verne approach to propulsion."
Gods Waiting Room gets metro. Hopefully they'll give the over-65 generation free passes, get them off the roads.
monorail, Monorail, MONORAIL!!!
well, maglev doesn't have the same ring to it.
10b||~10b -- aah, what a question!
Would be nice if they would run it along I4 (which they probably will, since it's the main artery from Tampa to Orlando)... traffic there is horrible.
Assuming it's not too expensive to ride, I would see it getting alot of business from us college students in Orlando who have family along the routes... gas isn't exactly cheap for a 400 mile drive one way
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
"Mono...D'oh!"
Rumor has it Disney is lobbying against the Maglev train in favor of a variant of the patented, copyrighted, lunch-box-marketed monorail system at Epcot.
The logistics of supplying power to such a maglev system would be slightly insane. Florida has daily rain, coupled with the heat, that will corrode coils and short stuff out. Not to mention the hurricanes.
Oh yeah, let's not forget the couple 'o fusion reactors that'll be needed to power the sucker.
How about just extending it all the way up to New York. Now that would be a fun trip!!
Well I live in FL and trust me, it's not the citizens that are pushing for a highspeed rail system! It's the congressmen and the Disney folks. They want to run a rail for "us", yet it would only really serve to get tourists to and from hotels and attractions.
But where is my flying car? It's 2002 already and I was promised a flying car!
Wondered why the magneto levitate trains and the monorails always had the track at the bottom of the vehicle. Seems like more balance could accomplish with the rail at the top side. When the train goes fast then the rail twists a little bit to make up for the side Gs. When the rail is at the bottom then the rail needs to be bent way outword and of tilt back in to the turn to make up for the Gs.
"With a couple of keystrokes on a computer, Old Dominion University's maglev transportation system project moved -- literally and figuratively -- steps closer to making history. The first propulsion tests of the system on the campus guideway began Thursday, a feat that has not previously been accomplished in the United States...." http://www.odu.edu/webroot/orgs/IA/university_news .nsf/articles/08092002092905AM
Why such a big thing over a maglev? There's been one carry passengers (not a test!) around birmingham airport since the 70's! Why has it taken so long for some to build another maglev? Or are there any other working maglevs in the world?
Someone mentioned rain in florida... Try the rain in birmingham (england)!!!
or maybe it's all a conspiracy and it's not actually a maglev, also I think it might have been put into retirement?
i remember voting for this a few years ago. it was very obscure on the ballot, and was also worded like a 5yr old wrote it. let's hope this happens, tampa needs it.
Be careful, floridans are easily confused...
I voted against this in 2000.
Simply put: Florida doesn't have the money. I'm not sure if the old rail route between Miami and Tampa is still operational (I took it a couple of times, years ago), but it was more than adequate. It wasn't very popular, though, IIRC.
The reason the referendum passed? It was vaguely worded and there was virtually no publicity given to it. I remember seeing it on the ballot, thinking "Hmm.. that would be pretty neat," and damn near punching it. And then I realized that it would be simply another bloated fund for our local politicos to exploit -- another holy grail for South Florida's thriving embezzlement industry. No thanks.
I hope Jeb lays the smack down again.
You must admit that Florida, with the lack of any hills to speak of, is the perfect location for high speed rail. Straight and flat is how to make it flat, no matter what the propulsion.
"Off-duty troopers, hired at $30 an hour, picked motorists at random and directed them to pull off the interstate into a rest stop, where Palm Pilot- toting interviewers waited. "
That's how florida's high-speed rail authority recently choose to gauge public interest in riding the high speed train.
The problem is, the whole state will be paying taxes for just 3 metropolis cities. Why should people in all over the state pay for transportation in Tampa, Jacksonville, and Miami?
Besides, if they need funding from the whole state, it can't be an efficient way of travel.
Remember guys, this is Florida, where everyone complains about ballots.
"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the World"
1 John 4:14
I've been to France, I've been to England, I've been to Japan. If they didn't have the rail systems they had, I honestly have no idea what I would have done. If you arrange before you go, Japan will give you unlimited 1st class "green car" travel anywhere in the country for a week for $300. The trip from Hiroshima back to Tokyo to leave was itself about $150. 500 miles in under 5 hours. You do the math. I come back and I am so frustrated that I can't hop on a train (I live in tampa) and go to orlando or miami for the weekend. My options are drive 4 hours (miami) or 2.5 hours (orlando) or fly. Neither is acceptable as a casual means of transportation.
I am looking forward to this so much, I really am. I am so callous as to the workings of gov't. that I will be delighted to no end if this actually comes about. I will use it frequently, as I have hometown friends who now live in either one. Amtrak is an embarassment. I've said before that if we bring in a handful of engineers from the major train countries I mentioned before, and give them a reasonable budget, and stand back, this country would be set up like it should be.
The time is now.
Florida's population is exploding; contrary to the popular image, it's less a state of retirees than it is a state of immigrants (from within the US and from abroad) and of young families.
The traffic problems have gotten awful, and not for lack of highways and 6-lane through roads. The bigger problem is much of Florida's other defining characteristic: fifty years of unregulated sprawl. South Florida has the same problems Los Angeles is finally starting to address. Office space, commerce and residential areas are kept separate, spread out and decentralized, and both coasts are hemmed in by the Everglades. Once the rather limited 20-miles strips of land along the coasts are built on, it just gets denser and denser, and that's what's happening. But unlike New York, San Francisco, Paris, London, Chicago, Moscow, Tokyo, Sao Paulo, Hong Kong or [insert viable city here], the "downtowns" aren't as dominant as they should be, and even in the cities, many neighborhoods are car-oriented.
As in L.A., this makes intercity train service a lot less useful. What good is it if only one in four business travelers can get off a train within a quick local transit or cab ride of their destination? Is a commuter train system going to get a lot of passengers if most people have to drive a half hour in gridlock just to get to a station--and there's no end station near their workplace? (Ask Southeast Florida commuters: the current north-south-only Tri-Rail is enthusiastically embraced by people who live close to one station and work close to another, but shunned by everyone else.)
There are a lot of people in the Palm Beach-Miami corridor, but they're relatively spread out and they commute in every possible direction. Intercity rail is an important part of what the state's metro areas need, but it's just not going to make real inroads as an alternative to crowded highways until the "last mile" solutions are also in place. More mixed-use planning and zoning will help by letting people live and work with less need for cars, as it's been helping LA and Atlanta, but that will be a long time in coming. In the meantime, workplaces are so scattered and decentralized that buses take too long to get anyone anywhere useful, and extensive commuter and light rail would have to be practically everywhere, with lots of parallel east-west and north-south lines and express tracks in order to work.
On its own, this high-speed rail network may well only do what its detractors think it will do: ferry families from Florida's coastal cities to Disney World for weekend trips.
I have a theory, and the theory is mine.
Public transportation is a wonderful thing.
Everyone will use it.
The number of cars on roads will decrease.
The amount of air pollution will decrease.
Then I can drive my car in peace.
-- Terry
Wow something named FOX wasnt immediately approved by a Bush? Who would have thought it?
When you say "If X, I'll eat my shorts"... you will inevitably be forced to eat your shorts, as X will inevitably be true. My shorts-eating incident...
yours,
kbs
A Beowulf cluster of these?
As a Florida voter, I voted against it as I believe that this thing will eventually become a huge source of captial drain on the state. We only need look at AmTrack for an example of what I believe will happen in the end.
One good rumor, and the politicians will have to come up with some other way to squander the taxpayers' ex-money. Just start saying that it would be a terrorist target (and it would be), and it would place all the towns along the route in jeopardy. Point out that the Feds let the al-Quaida suicide pilots train in Florida, and that it would be impossible to secure the whole damned rail line. Pretty soon municipalities will start passing ordinances banning it in their town. The big politicians will give up if they think it'll cost them votes. It'll take them years to come up with another big boondoggle.
As a Florida resident, I am deeply concerned by the whole High Speed Rail movement.
We now have a Constitutional Amendment (yes, in our State Constitution) mandating a high speed rail. That's absurd. Constitutions are for more important matters - rights that are undeniable. It was on the ballot and the morons of the state voted for it. There were no provisions for cost or anything else. Just that we are required to have a tax dollar supported rail.
It's not even going to get used. Our cities do not have adequate transportation to support this. Let's say I want to go from Orlando to Tampa (this will undoubtedly be one of the links on the rail). I will drive my car down to the train station, park and ride to Tampa. What do I do then? Tampa does not have a subway, only buses. The bus system is not even very good. Shall I take a cab? Not likely, as the Tampa area is not conducive to cheap taxi rides (it is a large area split by a bay). Besides which, there aren't taxis just passing by everywhere like in New York. There are cabs at the airport, and there will likely be some at the train station, but you will be calling for a cab to come get you and then waiting the 15 to 45 minutes for it to arrive.
The trip from Tampa to Orlando is only a little more than one hour by car, anyway. So, I would be driving to the train station (likely somewhere near downtown). This will take me 45 minutes. The average person probably 30 minutes(some more, some less). Let's allow 10 minutes for getting there a little early, dealing with ticket issues, boarding, etc (this is a very low estimate - I'll bet it's higher). Let's say the rail can get there in 30 minutes. Let's allow 5 minutes to get off the train and find local transportation. I've spent an hour and 15 minutes going from Tampa to Orlando. I've paid to park, and I've paid to ride the train. I now have to pay for some local transportation. So, I've arrived in the same amount of time, but I've spent more money. Perfect. Thank goodness for Constitutional Rights!
I just read an article on why maglev trains weren't living up to their promise. Turns out that the technology (at least that reviewed in the story) is much more expensive than regular trains with only a marginal improvement in performance. One wonders if the proper thought has been put into this Florida design.
Nobody wants to be stuck in a train car with a bunch of smelly negros and wetbacks! This is just going to be another big waste of money, like Amtrak. Everyone who can afford a car will avoid using the train whenever possible.
I was being serious... that was not a troll. Think about it.
A monorail for Springfield!!!!
They (the wanna-be big-spenders) are trying this type of crap in North Carolina too - althought probably not with maglev.
I'm so tired of everyone jumping up ready to spend tax dollars on unnecessary crap. Don't we waste too much already anyway? I know I'm sick of it and want either 1) my money back, or 2) some f*cking accountability at the fed and state levels.
Seriously - haven't these people heard of Amtrak.
I'm suprised they haven't tried to pass it as the "Floridian Travelers Bill of Rights" because after all, who would not support a bill of rights?
Florida... c'mon
---- suck it trebek
Not everyone in Florida has been waiting for this. The existence of the project was a result of a bunch of uninformed voters (something Florida has gained a reputation for somehow) who went in the voting booth and voted yes on a plethora amendments they either didn't read or didn't understand.
Fortunately, some of the State Constitutional changes have already been rolled back and others will be in the future. But until it is...
We are stuck with this colossal monstrosity of a plan. It may serve people of the major metro areas (Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, Miami and everyone's favorite hotspot, Pensacola) but will do little or nothing for those of us who live outside of those areas. I am two hours away from the nearest train station in whatever route I choose to travel, and can't see driving two hours to get on a train, anyway.
The whole situation makes an eloquent case for republics over democracies.
In Portland they seem to have a very hard time building rail systems. The opposition say its no good, under-used, and they have the right to drive their car anyhow - without paying the high taxes (doesn't anyone think about how these roads were built or maintained?).
Anyhoo - every time I've been on their local (and short) train lines they have around here its always very crowded - especially when I had a job and commuted to work in it. Usually standing room only. I've found in my travels all over this world that there's one constant - in the bigger cities cars are a major problem. I've never seen any big city where everyone can drive downtown, park their car, go to work and drive home. In Tokyo for instance if you buy a car you need to have a note from a police officer that says you have a place to park it overnight (I wish they'd do that here too). I'm not talking about people who have to drive - but I'd be willing to bet well over 75% of everyone who does could use an alternative, simply because they had the opportunity to reduce highway load if they did use some alternative form of transport - but its just easier (sometimes) to drive.
For the most part the only reason you could drive (in the case of convience) is because someone else did take the bus or ride the train.
I don't like the way this Florida referendum was handled (I mean the only reason they wrote it into the constitution was because its much harder to recall), but sooner or later most cities in the US are going to have to take transit seriously.
What does Quake 3 and Florida have in common???
You got Rail!
Building roads is not a private function; taxes are extracted from you for those construction projects also. Then sometimes there are tolls. You have to buy, insure, and maintain the car, don't forget that. Oh, and with the highway thing you get five thousand or so violent deaths every month. Not sure on the exact figure there, but I think that's in the ballpark for American road kills every month. Boy, what a cool deal!
We have a new test track project in Norfolk Virginia for Maglev train,At a local school. Kinda seems like a PORKY project.. http://www.pilotonline.com/news/nw0809test.html
"The voters responded by passing a referendum to require the building of a "bullet train," starting by November 2003. The new Florida High Speed Rail Authority is focusing first on the busy Miami-Orlando and Tampa-Orlando corridors, but eventually hopes to serve the whole state."
The voters didn't respond. The people of the five largest cities voted to make everyone pay for their bullet train.
And the referendum was not about serving the whole state -- it was about serving the five largest metro areas.
I live in a town less than 5 minutes from I4 where this train is going to be. It won't stop in my town (over 40,000 people), but I'll be paying for it anyway.
This is about one group of people voting themselves everyone's money. Hurray. Democracy at work.
Choice 1 was for Maglev.
Choice 2 was against.
Still, someone managed to vote for Pat Buchanon.
Game: Player 'Donald J Trump' now has AI skill level 'experimental'.
These mass transit things don't work in most places. For the same money (maybe?) you can ADD MORE LANES to the friggen roads that real people really want to use.
I live in a country that requires a high speed rail link between between two of it's major cities. At around 500km this would be a decent bit 'o track. Additionally the entire population here is crowded into just 10 large cities. This is ideal for a poin-to-point link such as a train since it will be able to compete in the lion's share of the inter-city market. Unfortunately I believe that cost killed the project - we're going to get the equivilent of a German ICE train or French VFT. I guess it takes a government with nerves of steel to be the world's first to use it's taxpayer's dollars on a new type of transport. (Apologies to any existing slow maglevs or similar small sub-30km systems. These just aren't in the same league) I'd sure be sore if the only benificary was some corporation at the end of the line. These tracks are hideously expensive to build where there's a perfectly servicable steel-rail track already in place that could be brought up to spec with some WD40. :)
it's buchanan
The first amendment to the constitution of the grand old state of Florida is a mandate to build an incredibly expensive maglev train that state can ill afford as the US is gripped by depression. It got there because a small number of Floridians led by an Orlando businessman (who stands to gain substantially from the cost of the train's construction) signed a petition and 51% of a mostly uninformed electorate voted for the referendum based on a vague ballot description.
Much has been said about corrupt polititions and the influence of lobbyists in American government, but at least representatives take the time to make sure they're informed before they vote on something. That's why US government works, and why the maglev train is a travesty of FL's political process.
And yes, I live in FL.
Your theory of public transportation is a game of statistics. I am supposed to be convinced that, at a particular population density, people will start using it.
The problem with this theory is that when I want to go home at 9:37 PM, I want to *go home* at 9:37 PM, not walk 4 blocks, wait 15 minutes for a bus, ride for a while, get off, wait another 15 minutes to transfer to another bus, ride for another while, get off, and walk another 4 blocks.
Public transportation is always a great idea *for other people, not for you*.
I've discussed this in letters with Governor Gray Davis of California. The only real way to get a lot of people onto public transportation is to make it fully subsidized.
The only way to get people to take public transportation is to make the marginal cost of taking it less than the marginal cost of not taking it. Making it free would drastically increase ridership. But there will still be people who will not take it, even if you were to pay them.
-- Terry
In order for trains (high speed or maglev) to work, they'd better build a parking lot put walmart, target lot to shame.
I'm wondering how much distance a 150 mph train achieves its top speed. It's safe to assume we only have one station in every major cities, which are miles and miles of sprawl. Take a taxi from my place to airport cost me $50, and that's only one way.
I love trains, I do, but billions of dollars are better spent on some good city planning first. And like a famous quote from a Florida legislator: "We should pay every teacher in this state at least $60,000". I'll vote for that.
--- You make things foolproof, and they'll find you a damn fool.
I live in Tampa, FL and many residents believe this train referendum was rammed through by special interests. This would be a huge and useless boondoggle like Boston's Big Dig.
Sure there's major congestion on the highways. The problem is that there is piss-poor mass transport in the cities. Take the train from Tampa to Orlando, and then rent a car or pay big $$$ for a taxi?
High probable of fraud and tax money waste.
- Andrew in Tampa
Mag-lev! Wow! Neato! Yeah, but shouldn't we shore up our existing commuting rail system before spending this kinda cash? You know, for once, I'd like to see a clean, well kept light rail system, not one that looks like it's about ready to fall apart like the ones here in Chicago. Or New York. And such a joy it is to wait down in those pits too. My first experience with light rail was in Japan, Hong Kong and Singapore. I got back here to the US and my first thought was "What a joke! This sucks!" and "Damn, it feels like the car is going to derail at anytime!" Let's bring what we have at least up into the 80's before waste more money on these toys.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
And so would the water systems for chemical attacks and nuclear power plants, and any well known landmark and any Amtrak train traveling at over 50mph and...
There are plenty of "Prime targets". Take your pick.
You need a FREE iPod Nano
You went to school at either UF or Santa Fa.
I wouldn't listen to this moron.
A rails system does not have to be used by you in order to be beneficial to you. If it takes enough load off of the freeway that you are driving to change it from being congested to uncongested then you have benefited from it. Smart transportation planners will create shuttle bus routes from the train stations to major employers or satellite parking lots, or the employers themselves will. Heck, I live in Los Angeles, the car crazy place that it is, and the Metrolink system and the Dash busses are quite well used. If a place as novice about public transport as LA is can figure this out I bet Florida can too.
Who asked you, anyways?
Only some people have been for it. Most around here think its a stupid idea. Go spend your own tax dollars!
Spoken like someone who's never had the joy of sitting in evening rush hour traffic for 2+ hours on the Central Artery in 95 degree, 200% humidity, August heat, which I did once when I visited there for MacWorld Expo. It was not fun. My new car was on the verge of overheating, so we had to turn off the A/C, put the windows down and turn on the heat to the passenger compartment to bleed off engine heat.
Anything that will improve the flow of traffic through Boston will be a major improvement, and the stages of the Big Dig that have already opened are major improvements. So I fail to see how it's a boondoggle.
The only reason this train is being built is because the general citizen of Florida is an idiot. This appeared on the balot as basically "do you want a neato bullet train in florida?". None of the fools who voted Yes bothered to notice that the building of the train would be mandated in the state constitution.
That's right, the _constitution_. Now, despite constant funding shortages that cripple our educational system in florida, we are mandated to build a fucking train.
Here's how this all went down. A small group of business men have been wanting a state contract to do build this train for years. They lobby and lobby, a task force is formed to decide the viability of building the train. It is determined that it won't be used enough to warrent the cost. It is turned down. So these business men decide to force the issue on a ballot, knowing that a properly worded initiative will pull in plenty of votes. After all, people are stupid.
So now we're stuck with this crap in our constitution. It sickens me everytime I hear someone talk about this.
Well, my perspective on this issue is a little different from most people's. First off, I am an avid follower of the politics of Florida. Second, I used to work with the man who was at the time one of the chief economists working on the high speed rail project in Florida. Both experiences tell me one thing, nobody in this state has a damn clue how to build or fund a high speed rail system. The voters of this state have established a track record of voting for some very poor amendments (including basically all of the 1998 amendments for the constitution revision in addition to this damn stupid idea).
High speed rail works where there is demand for commuter traffic between areas, or large commerce between areas. Miami and Tampa (and Fort Lauderdale, for that matter) are large ports that receive goods for other parts of the nation or send them south. Not a lot of commerce between the cities. Furthermore, who the hell wants to commute between the cities? Maybe, just maybe, there might be demand for such a thing between Tampa and Orlando.
Killing the high speed rail proposals when he took office stood for several years as the single action Jeb Bush had taken as governor of which I approved (now there is one other being his veto this year of a bill that would have allowed the Public Utilities Commission to raise telephone rates with basically no oversight).
Objection 1: "It will only serve a few cities." Actually, Fla. HSR WILL serve the whole state when the system is built out. It makes sense to build lines to serve the 5 largest metro areas first -- they contain the most potential riders. But if you read my story, you'll see a link to a map that basically includes rail lines covering the whole state, following the paths of the major interstate highways (I-10, I-4, I-95, I-75) and the Fla. Turnpike. This means stations in Pensacola, Tallahassee, Jacksonville, Gainesville, Ocala, Daytona, St. Augustine, Titusville, Fort Myers, Naples, and elsewhere.
Objection 2 seems to be the cost of the system. Well, the Florida HSR site says they are exploring a "DBMF" option, which stands for Design, Build, Maintain and Finance. In other words, a public-private partnership would build and run (and pay for) the system. You let private firms finance a major part of the system, and then let them make their money back by running it for profit. For an example, look at NYC: many people don't realize that 2/3 of its subway lines were actually built and run by private companies (tho they are now owned by the gov't.). A privately run train service would probably be more efficient anyway (look at how bad Amtrak service is... it's a gov't. monopoly, so they don't have to try).
Objection 3: not enough public transit WITHIN cities. This, sadly, is true. Florida needs to rectify this. I know there are serious efforts being made in southeast Florida (Miami-Ft. Lauderdale-Palm Beach), but they've got a long way to go. Still, trains are very long-term investments (think decades and even centuries). Eventually Fla.'s major population centers will HAVE to offer better local transit systems, even if it doesn't happen for 15 or 20 years. And then the intercity HSR service will fully come into its own. Also, people and businesses will start to view locations near the HSR stations as desirable, and development patterns will change. You have to think long-term, something Americans seem to be bad at (and Floridians worst of all).
In any case, the status quo -- more and more roads, which just promote more and more traffic -- is unacceptable. Someone needs to have the vision to change this. Those who fear such a change are, wittingly or unwittingly, choosing the path that will lead to paving the entire state with asphalt and concrete. It's time to realize this is not working.
If you build it, they WILL come.
I can't believe all the people here who are too shortsighted and stupid to object to this.
If this were such a good idea, Disney'd want to own the rails. They want you and me to pay for the rails, and mark my words, they want a state income tax here, too...
ME
I lived in Florida for 20 years, and traveled b/t Miami, Ft. Lauderdale, Tampa/St. Pete, Orlando, Gainesville, Tallahassee, and Ft. Myers all the time -- probably 6-8 times a year. I would have killed to be able to take a train, instead of driving. It's a 6-hour drive from Miami to Gainesville (which I made frequently during college)... and that's when there's no traffic. On holiday weekends, add an hour or three to that.
It did get passed by a majority of voters. Those who didn't vote for it or didn't read their ballot carefully have only themselves to blame.
The leaders weren't leading, so the people did, and now the leaders must follow.
It said on the ballot that it was a constitutional amendment. I think ppl. knew what they were doing.
It will probably be at least half privately funded, which you would know if you read the links. Typical Slashdotter.
the maglev fails? Would the train just fly off it's tracks? Maglevs sound pretty dangerous if proper safety precautions are not considered.
In my opinion, if they are going to build a high-speed rail system in Florida, I would do the following:
1. Build it with the fastest trainsets available and make it capable of topping out at 375 km/h (233 mph). The technology is there to build such a train using conventional steel rail systems.
2. The first line should be Jacksonville south to Orlando and then south to Miami. The second line is from Jacksonville west to Pensacola.
3. The service has to be frequent--that means at least 15 minutes between trains.
4. Establish train stations near airports. This means the line has to go near the main airports of Jacksonville, Orlando, Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale and Miami. In the Orlando area, you want a station that is very close or on Disney World property.
Maybe Migor would do us all a favor and labotomize these maglev igiots. DC sounds nice. I hope it'd be up to par considering it is our capital...
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I'm one of those 55% of "fools" who voted for HSR.
:)
Since a majority voted for it even after the
publicity generated by Bush's cancellation
of the program I think it is clear there is public
interest in the project. Bush really did himself
a disservice by being so high-handed with the
commission.
We are on a dead end track in this state because
gov't has not seriously tried anything but roads
and more roads. The big exception is Metrorail
in Miami, which is paying for itself at last
despite the successful efforts of many mass-
transit haters (incl. Pres. Reagan!) to stall
the project without a single line built.
I've been to europe - I know that if we had
soemthing like the TGV or even just everyday
Eurail service we'd use it. I can't shuttle
between St. Pete and Miami until 2011 on Florida
HSR, but when I can I will.
Ah, you see the apparent contradiction between the comprehensive planning that creates unlivable sprawl and the fact that the planning itself comes from government.
Once you look at the history of postwar new-suburban development as it really happened, the two reconcile pretty well. Yep, the zoning plans that created decentralized, traffic-clogged suburbs came from municipal governments--but the municipal governments literally came from the developers. Putting aside the charming histories of the big cities "founded" by railroad moguls and land speculators, the most extreme examples come in the suburbs built out of nothing in the last forty years: a developer would devise a master plan for a town-sized piece of property in an unincorporated area, they'd have six of their employees move into houses built on the land, and those six people and their families would vote to incorporate a city made up entirely of people tied to the development.
Six employees, literally. No exaggeration.
We already have trains running all over the country. Ever hear of Amtrak?
And it's been a failure, losing huge sums of money. In addition to mismanagement, the biggest problem with all forms of mass transit is that they don't go where people want to go, when they want to go. So people stick with cars.
A fancy shmancy high speed train will just be another multi-billion dollar government boondoggle.
Comparing this to Amtrak is comparing apples to oranges.
Amtrak is a quasi-government agency set up to fail from the beginning. They do not have the power to make significant changes without the approval of Congress, have to endlessly wait for freight trains (because -- with the exception of places in the Northeast Corridor -- they are riding on privately owned,non-dedicated rail), and were given a mandate to operate at a profit. No public rail system has ever operated at a profit. Every time Amtrak tried to change a route to better serve customers overall, a Congressman/woman would take the time to lobby against modification or discontinuation of a line. Yet Congress pours billions into the airline industry "to keep people working," the airlines still layoff the same number of people, pocket the money, and still claim they are going bankrupt. What Amtrak has requested in the past is a pittance compared to what has been sunk into the airline industry with no return on investment. We need diversiication in travel options.
A State will have a much easier time dealing with a railroad within its own boundaries. Will some of their problems parallel Amtrak? Sure they will. If Florida follows the plan, their trains will be operating on dedicated right-of-way -- reliablity.
And, to end this rant. If you are one of those individuals who also believes that adding another lane to the highway will solve the problem, read studies over the past 30-40 years and get a clue. Additional lanes (I'm talking about thru lanes, not turn lanes) do nothing.
I have found the postings here interesting. Many Floridians are screaming about it, yet, it did pass. So, let me point out a few things.
The comparison to Amtrak is a red herring. Amtrak serves just passenger with highpriced rail. It deserves to die. What is being talked about here is building a high speed rail throughout Florida. It will connect a number of cities that already send a lot of traffic between them. For those of you compaining about the traffic generated by trourist, this will get them off the roads so the roads will be easier to drive.
If you look closely at the current rail, it is used heavily to carry frieght and it is profitable. Likewise, the airlines, trucks, and buses do the same. Airlines actually carry passenger only becuase that was the way it was started. They actually lose a bit of money on them. It is the cargo that makes it profitable. The passengers allow for large number of aircrafts to be flown daily.
That is why these trains need to be
1) >100 MPH, preferable > 200 MPH - otherwise, Trucks and plain rail can compete easily.
2) the rail must be carring cargo (light to medium - not heavy) or it will lose money. Idealy, there should be an easy and cheap way of loading the semi-trailers on a covered flatbed.
3) it needs to be eleveted so that it can run at full speed without worries about other traffic or the weather.
4) it should not be used as a local commuter, but long distance commuters. These cost money to build out and using them for low-speed commuters is a waste of money. In addition, if driving is cheaper and easier, then everybody will drive. Even if driving more expensive, it may still be easier to drive. It will be cost and time that will drive ppl to use these.
5) if these are to succeed as commuters, then better local access will have to be built or business will have to be close to the train stations (think of airports). To be honest, it most likely will happen.
Strange,but multi-million dollar (or more) mass transit boondoggles seem to be very popular with the public these days. Amtrak is seeking new government bailouts almost every other week, has poor accounting practices and low riderships, but the polls say that the public doesn't want it to be privatized, even though 95% of them will never get an opportunity to use Amtrak and will probably choose a car or airplane to go where they want to go. Voters out there are suckers.
Let's not forget the short maglev system that's under construction at ODU on Norfolk, Va. It's suppose to go into service very soon and will be the first operating commercial Maglev system in the world.
http://www.maximum-cars.com - My little hobbie.
An alternative high-speed transportation method was proposed by the DOT a not too long ago. Intelligently, they never made an official press release, just a few leaked internal memos; however I like this idea better:
Toll Plazas would be modified on Florida's turnpike to allow for high-speed access with Florida's ETC SunPass. Once on the Turnpike, speed would be unregulated. Exits would be modified to accommodate for this. Users without Sunpass would be allowed access after their license place was captured by photo enforcement - they would be sent a bill and a Sunpass Application.
Amtrak is a quasi-government agency set up to fail from the beginning. They do not have the power to make significant changes without the approval of Congress,
They have the power to politicize the issue by threatening to shutdown popular, functional lines even though it would be detrimental to them. They're very good at begging for money.
have to endlessly wait for freight trains
which--unlike Amtrak--are profitable.
Every time Amtrak tried to change a route to better serve customers overall, a Congressman/woman would take the time to lobby against modification or discontinuation of a line.
Another reason why nationally run mass transit is a dumb idea.
Yet Congress pours billions into the airline industry "to keep people working,"
An industry that is still heavily regulated by the government, especially now in light of Sept. 11th of last year, an transport that serves infinitely more people than Amtrak ever will.
We need diversiication in travel options.
Don't want to use a car? a plane? Greyhound tickets are cheap. Certainly cheaper than Amtrak tickets to any place special and it's one hell of a lot easier to get them.
Additional lanes (I'm talking about thru lanes, not turn lanes) do nothing.
Bullshit. HOV lanes are also bullshit.
For a subburban shithole, Florida is pretty well layed out for a train. You have three cities which need to be linked by direct train routes. You start by ignoring Jacksonvile and the pan handle since those don't really count as Florida anyway, but you could eventually build trains up both costs if you have enough people who wanted those routes.
The only reason not to build a train in Florida is that it will all be underwater in 30 years, but you would likely need to rebuild the train anyway, so I would not worry about it.
Or Murphy strikes and it takes 45 minutes :-(
Alternatively, if I had a driver's licence, I am one of the lucky two people allocated a car space. I drive to the next block. If I leave in rush hour (i.e. daylight) I wait 15 minutes in traffic to get to the block after that. I then crawl down the road for ten-thirty minutes to where the train transfers to the bus. Or take an aerial ride over speed-bumps that every residential street has. If I leave at 2am this would be about 10 minutes of course, but I still wouldn't get the chance to snooze, read my comics, flirt with the cuter passengers, etc.
As is, in the morning (on school days) I walk past all those drivers parked in their SUVs as they wait for each other to move, and think that I have the better deal. Your mileage may vary.
Florida already has an above ground train traveling it's most heavily used corridor:
Walt Disney World.
someone has just given them a present of some chocolate flavoured edible underwear, and their first thought was to read slashdot to take advantage...
Since most americans don't regularly ride trains, let me share the joy of train travel.
You don't have to drive, which means you don't have all those horrible drivers parked in the fast lane, cutting you off, forgetting what a signal is, and most importantly, doing everything but driving. I think every one would agree with me that All the other drivers out there are idiots.
Since your not driving you can sit back, read a book, have a beer, talk to someone, enjoy the view, work or play on your computer, listen to music, relax, and not worry about if you'll get there on time (like driving, its out of your control) or if your going to die in one of the hundreds of car accidents that will happen today.
Also since i generally prefer rail transit, most of the destinations you end up at are actually in the center of the town or city your visiting. This could mean that your actully may end up somewhere without a wal-mart and the associated paved great plains of parking. You might even come across a family owned store or restaurant.
Trains bring people together, Rather than inulating us from each other. I often think that our society and heritage suffer because our lives revolve around our cars and ensuring nothing comes between us and our destination. Today everything seems to be about getting there yesterday, but not about enjoying the journey.
Life is too short to waste it sitting alone in a traffic jam.
an interconnected rickshaw system, but all I got was this lousy Maglev train. That's right, I'M a Florida voter!
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"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
I still can't believe that Americans had a President with a son named Jeb.
Worse yet, now we have a President with a brother named Jeb.
Thats just embarassing... crowded freeways are a small problem compared to this...
The quote below is so typical of advocacy type 'news'. Hi, we're unbiased yet we want to stereotype things to get you to have the same opinion as we do.
the state's ever-growing, yet ever-crowded highways
Are there any facts supporting:
1. Increase in the number of miles driven on Florida highways
2. Increase in the number of miles of Florida's highways