Microsoft to Hire Xbox Hackers?

handsomepete writes "According to PlanetXbox, Microsoft is looking to hire 'software design engineers' to look into the properties of modchips and detection code for hardware. A background in game hacking knowledge is listed as a preferred talent. Will any of the Xbox Linux participants take a stab at this job?"

Comments

Read the contract carefully!!

[Anonymous Coward]

It probably says something about the employee being neutered and lobotomized on page 16 paragraph 9f.

Re:Read the contract carefully!!

[opti6600]

Yeah, well, we learned that if we played it stupid like Dilbert when the House comes for us, we'll be safe. Just don't end up as Gates' towelboy.

(Score 0, Funny? I would assume that more than one person modded this guy, right?)

I would assume

[The Electric Messiah]

that any employment contract would forbid them from working on any of the XBox projects out there already, such as the XBox Linux Project, or from even disseminating any information they learn whatsoever. Maybe MS is trying to gut these projects before anything else is accomplished?

Re:I would assume

[garcia]

maybe, but I would think that if these people went to MS someone else would take their place, MS doesn't hoard *all* the smart people of the world.

I would say they are trying to make their hardware harder to crack and software harder to copy and/or emulate (especially being that it is on PC hardware).

They aren't the completely evil company so many of you think.

Well maybe they are but still ;)

Re:I would assume

[C0LDFusion]

maybe, but I would think that if these people went to MS someone else would take their place, MS doesn't hoard *all* the smart people of the world.

Windows ME was enough proof of that.

We all knew this was going to happen

[Powercntrl]

The Xbox is really just the pilot program for palladium. Once all the security holes are patched, Microsoft will then use what they've learned (after patenting it, of course) to create the most difficult-to-hack DRM PC standard.

Let's just hope sellout hackers aren't as good as not-for-profit hackers.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Troy H Parker]

A likely story.... How long has MS been trying to make Windows secure? 20 years from now XBox will be secure.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Chairboy]

When I first read the above message, I thought it was just fluff, but if you think about it... the X-Box does a lot of what Palladium is described as.

At the very least, I would be amazed if Palladium development did not carefully scrutinize successes and failures of the X-Box model.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[dakoda]

I too fear this may be the beginning of real drm. All protection on-die.

although, fwiw, i often find the not-for-profit hackers better at most things than suits, except when it comes to user interface design :)

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[sporktoast]

No! Stop!
It's a cookbook! It's a cookbook!! It's a [mrrrffph]

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[ramdac]

That's what he just said.

Redundant?

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Niten]

Perhaps this could explain the anonymous offer of such a great amount of money to anyone able to get Linux running on the XBox?

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[zerocool^]

Why do you care if XBox is secure or not ?
IT'S A GAMES BOX for crying out loud.

Operating systems: Microsoft releases one every year or two. We'll say 1.5. Say people upgrade every other time (w-95 to w-Me, w-2000-w-XP), so that's one OS, bought for $150, every 3 years.

Video Game systems: Even on an off year, there are 100 titles. Chances are people will buy 6 or 8 in a year. At $50/pop, that's a lot of lost revenue they've lost in royalties over 3 years, a lot more than say operating system attrition. If people pirate games, they stand to lose more than from Operating Systems, and I'll tell you why:

A couple of key points that I've pointed out before. One: MICROSOFT does NOT CARE about individual piracy of windows. That's a fact. They care about idiots pirating it, and they care about coroprations pirating 4000 copies of it. They DO NOT CARE about the average slashdot reader pirating windows, for this reason: We are their free tech support. I pirate windows (sue me), and my dad asks me questions about how to work his computer, quote unquote. I would swear, being the "computer guru" has paid off for Microsoft more so than me, they've gotten their $200 worth out of me, in the way of I've prevented people with problems from contacting Microsoft. I have SAVED THEM MONEY, and therefore it is in their best interest to get windows, latest versions, into my hands as quickly as possible, and for free, so that I know it intimately.

Now, in the realm of games, they stand to lose money. The X-box is essentially an attempt to get into the game industry, specifically for the reasons outlined above: more people buy more video games than operating systems. More money is the bottom line to the X-box. Of course, they spent a god-damn fortune launching the thing with less than stellar titles, and competing with the PS-2's already entrenched lead and the backwards compatability of ps2-psx has proved hard. They can't stand to lose more money.

And speaking of the PS2: Sony, on the other hand, doesn't care if people pirate games for their systems. Why? They make money on the hardware. To play pirated playstation games, you first have to have a playstation. Any rumor that Sony lost money on the playstation or ps2 hardware is bull. They make the thing, and they make money on it.

Now, there once was going to be a Mod-Chip for the PS-2 that was going to eliminate the need for ANY knife trick, ANY boot disk, ANY game shark, etc etc, at the price of having 58 solder points. It was called the Messiah. There are several out there floating around as the Messiah chip, but to my knowledge, none of them actually are the origional planned chip. Sony shut the messiah chip down. Why? Why this one and not any of the others? Why not get the people that made the USB mod chip that needed the game shark?
Because in order for the messiah chip to work, the programmers had to disable ALL security checks, including reagion coding for DVD's, and other DVD anti-piracy measures. Sony had too high a stake in movies, which they stood to lose quite a bit more, enough to shut the Messiah down.

So, to sum up: Microsoft cares about X-Box game piracy, not OS piracy. Sony cares about movie piracy, not Game piracy. In short, it's all about the Benjamins.

~Will

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[clontzman]

I agree with a lot of what you said, but this:

And speaking of the PS2: Sony, on the other hand, doesn't care if people pirate games for their systems. Why? They make money on the hardware. To play pirated playstation games, you first have to have a playstation. Any rumor that Sony lost money on the playstation or ps2 hardware is bull. They make the thing, and they make money on it.

... is horse pocky. If you think that Sony cares any less than Microsoft about the huge profits they make on a successful piece of game software, you're fooling yourself. The small amount they make on an individual console pales in comparison to what they make on the 6-8 games the average user buys in a year.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[zerocool^]

Yes, but Sony makes a lot more on the hardware than Microsoft ever hoped to. Think about the origional PSX - sold in one itteration for, what, 8 years? 1 in 4 American households has one. I have 3, I've worn out the lasers on two of them. Microsoft, last I heard, was still selling X-Box under cost, expecting to make it up in games royalties, which appearantly are much higher than any other system, cause the developers don't have to work as hard to produce games (windows ce ports).

With sony, I think that they take a much smaller chunk of royalty for PS and PS2 games than Microsoft takes for X-box games. But, also, sony has a much higher stake in movies than in games. The same people that buy an operating system every 3 years, and a game every other month, will buy 2 or 3 DVD's per month.

I'm not saying they don't care about the money. I'm just saying they have their priorities in order. Sony seems to be a well run company, on the track to make good profit for quite a while, and in the meantime, still produce a good product.

Plus, when you sell as many copies of games as sony does, you can afford a little attrition: How many Tekken Tags or Final Fantasy X's or GTA 3's were sold? It's a lot, I can tell you that, more than X-Box games.

And also, I hate the X-box. Because of the reason microsoft got into the market: only to cash in, not to make quality games. Because of the lack of good games for it. Because of the controllers.

~Will

~Will

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Cryptnotic]

Even better, they should come up with the new system, find its weaknesses, and patent all the mechanisms they can think of for attacking the weaknesses. That way, they would be able to knock down the modchip makers based on patent infringement rather than the DMCA, which might be overturned or ruled unconstitutional. Not to mention that the DMCA is a U.S. law, but patent protection is shared by much of the world.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[jericho4.0]

I disagree with the statement that Sony didn't lose money on the ps and ps2. All consoles lose money. You simply can't deliver the performence people expect in this very competitive market at a price point they'll pay. Hence Nintendo going so far as to use cartriges instead of CDROMS, with all the limits on game development that entails.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Osty]

... cause the developers don't have to work as hard to produce games (windows ce ports).

Just a nitpick, but XBox isn't Windows CE. It's based on a stripped down Windows 2000 kernel. Perhaps you're thinking of the Dreamcast, which did support CE? (few games actually used CE, but it was an option). Anyway, your port argument will only be valid for the first generation or two of XBox games. Since the XBox is static hardware (ie, it's a console, regardless of what Slashbots say about it), most developers will write their own in-house libraries that are thin layers over the hardware itself, rather than using something bulkier like DirectX. Once they do this, PC-to-XBox ports will no longer be trivial, and vice versa.

And also, I hate the X-box. Because of the reason microsoft got into the market: only to cash in, not to make quality games. Because of the lack of good games for it. Because of the controllers.

Odd you say XBox has a "lack of good games", considering it had the strongest launch line-up of any console since I don't know when (definitely not the PS2 or Gamecube, PSX, Saturn, Dreamcast, N64, or even the Genesis and SNES). And before you ding me for still talking about the launch line-up, let me state that the XBox isn't even a year old yet. It's still completely valid to consider those games. I'll grant you that many of the games that came later haven't been that great, but there have been quite a few good ones (Rallisport Challenge, Jet Set Radio Future, Gunvalkyrie (hard, but fun), Crazy Taxi 3, etc). As well, more good games are being released right now, like Turok (last month), Sega GT 2002, Soccer Slam (ported from GameCube, but with extra features and supposedly better graphics and sound), Dead to Rights, Buffy the Vampire Slayer (laugh if you will, but it's supposedly a rather good action game), with quite a few more to come soon like Shenmue II, Quantum Redshift, Blinx, Panzer Dragoon Orta, and more. Maybe none of those are your thing (ie, if you're loyal to certain game lines like Final Fantasy, Grand Theft Auto, Tekken, or Gran Turismo), and that's cool. However, just because the XBox doesn't have those certain franchises doesn't mean it has a lack of good games (and no, I'm not putting words in your mouth. I'm just suggesting a possible reason for why you may be overlooking some good games).

As for the controller issue, try again. Personally, I like the larger original controller (it just "fits right" in my hands), as do a number of my friends, but I've got one friend that swears by the smaller S controller. Both are good, high-quality, durable controllers. Neither will give you "game cramps" that you get with Sony's controllers (or, I get that, anyway).

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[g4dget]

cause the developers don't have to work as hard to produce games (windows ce ports)

Actually, it's NT ports. In any case, developers had to work extra hard to get the stuff running under Windows in the first place.

Sony could realize a similar advantage by going more strongly with open standards for the PS2: OpenGL, POSIX, etc. That way, developers could keep roughly the same code for PS2, Windows, Macintosh, and Linux, even if they need some platform tweaks on each.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Martigan80]

The above article makes some good sense. After the R&D that customer did for Win95 helped MS to build Win98. They learned early off that customer are the best R&D and bug testers out there. Do you realize that the number of service packs have been lessening over each version?

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[beswicks]

Mmm...

I believe that Sony do make money from games, they charge a license fee to people who want to make/sell playstation games. Thats one of the reasons ALL the games boxes have the same style on the spine.

Also Microsoft make most of there 'workstation' money from selling Office.

c.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Froobly]

Now, there once was going to be a Mod-Chip for the PS-2 that was going to eliminate the need for ANY knife trick, ANY boot disk, ANY game shark, etc etc, at the price of having 58 solder points. It was called the Messiah. There are several out there floating around as the Messiah chip, but to my knowledge, none of them actually are the origional planned chip.

Messiah lives, and it works exactly according to specification as of the last prototype that was released before the lawsuit (none of the DVD features people begged for, but all of the import/bootleg support). The only problem is that the thing is $80 for the chip alone. Check the consumer groups.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[clontzman]

And also, I hate the X-box. Because of the reason microsoft got into the market: only to cash in, not to make quality games. Because of the lack of good games for it. Because of the controllers.

Ah... the bias comes out. I hate to burst your bubble, but I'm sure Sony's doing it for the money, too... you honestly think they make game consoles because the shareholders like "quality games"? What next, they make audio receivers because the engineers want to listen to loud, clear music?

Wake up, dude: Sony is a big ol' megacorp, just like Microsoft (except over a much broader range of products). Fine, if you prefer one platform over another, but let's not go nuts on the rationale.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[bludstone]

I would agree with you.. but theres one small problem.

Its called "PS2 DVD Region Free." A PS2 swapdisk that allows you to select which region you want. I got this for my imported r2 and r3 dvds (all of which have english subs, love you ghibli.) It works fantastically, ive never had a problem playing anything with it.

Oh, it also costs less then 20 Dollars.

No, there must of been another reason. Perhaps it was simply a token gesture, who knows.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[bhsx]

Hi, Capt. Obvious/strong>, are you looking for a side-kick?

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[thejames]

A couple of key points that I've pointed out before. One: MICROSOFT does NOT CARE about individual piracy of windows. That's a fact. They care about idiots pirating it, and they care about coroprations pirating 4000 copies of it. They DO NOT CARE about the average slashdot reader pirating windows, for this reason: We are their free tech support.

Unfortunately this information has failed to reach those who are employed by Microsoft in some sort of security manner.

Case: I know of one such person who claims to work for Microsoft, reporting piracy, etc. Not only does he get his panties tied up in a knot if you mention having a copy of M$, just forget about mentioning ANYTHING pirated or mp3ish or even ogg-ish.

Even after explaining to him your viewpoint (which I share)... he's still at it. Sure you can say he's forced to act this way as it's his job, however, I firmly believe he actually believes that Microsoft cares about the individual.... they want the big time piraters.

By no means am I advocating piracy, but it does happen. Microsoft WILL NOT go after the individual... they're more concerned about the big boys.

Somebody please send this "Security Hound" a nice swift kick in the pants and get him off everyone's backs.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Mysticalfruit]

I'm sure Sony lost a little bit of money on the original playstation way back in the day, but they haven't lost a cent on the PS2. Microsoft has been betting on Moore's law as a way to make money eventually on the Xbox. Sony has taken a seperate approache to making money on the PS2, they've continued to refine the PS2 and more tightly integreate all the components so a 4th generation PS2 has about 20% less parts than a 1st gen PS2 but works the same. Here's a good example...
The Xbox has an intel cpu and a nvidia gpu. Do you ever think intel and nvidia would ever agree to put these on the same die? The answer would be no. There competitors, they'd have to work too closely and would invariably end up seeing the guts of each others processors. Intel has nothing to fear from nvidia seeing the inside of the P3, but nvidia definity doesn't want intel getting a good look at the gforce core.

Now the PS2 on the other hand has a sony owned cpu and a sony owned gpu. One of the last revisions they've made to the PS2 was to stuff the cpu and gpu on the same die. So sony was able to save a bunch of substrate and move the cpu->gpu bus onto one piece of silicon.

Now imagine that sony was to take every little bit of the PS2 and make one big ass substrate out of it and ended up with a chip that was something the size of 2 p3 cpu's stuck side by side (though I could imagine it would probably be smaller), your PS2 would now become a motherboard with a couple of transistors and ceramic chunk in the middle of it with some leads to all the other bits (dvd drive, usb, etc) and the power supply. Now sony has just shrunken, simplified and improved the reliability of the PS2, while increasing their margins.

That is the kind of competiton that the Xbox has to compete with.

Re:We all knew this was going to happen

[Azuay]

Let's just hope sellout hackers aren't as good as not-for-profit hackers.

Sorry, but the baseline competency of sellout hackers will always be better than the baseline competency of not-for-profit hackers.

This makes me sick!

[Lieutenant_Dan]

As soon as someone provides something innovative to the community, there goes MS buying up all the talent so that they die a quiet death in one of the gray offices in Redmond.

When will they finally see that the best way to improve MS is to allow the Open Source developer community free rein in order to come out with more and more brilliant ideas and concepts?

Re:This makes me sick!

[SamBeckett]

When will they finally see that the best way to improve MS is to allow the Open Source developer community free rein in order to come out with more and more brilliant ideas and concepts?

Such as?

Re:This makes me sick!

[TheCabal]

When will they finally see that the best way to improve MS is to allow the Open Source developer community free rein in order to come out with more and more brilliant ideas and concepts?

Maybe because Microsoft doesn't have to.

Also, Open Source has done very little (to use a BillG term) to create any innovations. They're all busy either writing an Yet Another MP3 player for their toasters, or writing Open Source clones of existing software (OpenOffice, etc). What innovations have Open Source come up with? Just the other week, people wanted an Open Source port of Exchange, for Christ's sake!

Re:This makes me sick!

[DavidJA]

The shell sort for example. Or TCP/IP. Or DeCSS. The list is virtually endless

On a games console? Exactly what use is a shell on a games console?

Re:This makes me sick!

[Grishnakh]

When will they finally see that the best way to improve MS is to allow the Open Source developer community free rein in order to come out with more and more brilliant ideas and concepts?

How the hell will this improve MS?? Their goal is total domination of all computer software; basically to collect a toll for anything and everything that someone does on a computer, and that requires monopoly control. How will disseminating new ideas and allowing free competition help that? MS isn't trying to help computing in general, or to make computing better for the users, they just want to have rigid control of it so they can make money.

Re:This makes me sick!

[Ironpoint]

"shell" sort needs a new name.

Can you imaginge if, at the airport, they called the jetways, "boarding wings".

This kind of stuff is allover mechanics. Like blower motor. There's half a dozen things on a car that blow. You're just supposed to know that it refers to the one hooked up to the vents. Or that simply "the axle" is what is fixed when a CV joint goes bad.

How about we call it "array sort". or "word sort" or "register sort" Something like that.

Re:This makes me sick!

[TummyX]

What has shell sort of TCP/IP got to do with OSS developers?

BTW, Microsoft currently employees Tony Hoare (aka inventor of quicksort).

Re:This makes me sick!

[skotte]

heh. which jetways?
(thus, illustrating your point)

Re:This makes me sick!

[opcenter]

How does that improve Microsoft exactly? And what are these "brilliant ideas and concepts" that you speak of? You're living a pipe dream MAN!! (or smoking some ultra-crack)

Re:This makes me sick!

[Broken Bottle]

I've got to take issue with this. Whenever someone does something really interesting with a company's product (like the N64 emulator for example) and the "offended" company sics their lawyers on the hackers, isn't the mantra we all chant usually "hire them, don't sue them!" Frankly, I see this as Microsoft wising up a bit. They see people out there taking their base product and doing some pretty neat stuff with them. Rather than wipe them off the face of the Earth, maybe they're seeing this as an opportunity to deepen their talent pool with some people who truly do think "outside the box." Or inside the Xbox as the case may be. I fail to see why MS looking to hire these people as a bad thing...

Chris

Re:This makes me sick!

[timmyf2371]

One word:
Security

According to a Microsoft Executive, Security isn't a feature in Windows operating systems.

Security is an innovation - something which hasn't been copied from the Windows World.

Tim

Re:This makes me sick!

[TheCabal]

Ah! but the funny thing is, any innovations that the open source community make would be shunned because they would be different to the Microsoft "Standards"

We'll never know at this rate, since the OS community really isn't pushing the envelope as far as exploring new technologies. Unless you consider 4000 semi-functional MP3 players to be extreme computing.

And before you go spouting the Party Line about MS and standards, review Win2k and XP's embrace of standards, especially Kerberos. MS does Kerberos a lot better than many UNIX vendors do, and still manages to fall exactly withing the published standards.

Re:This makes me sick!

[Chris Johnson]

It's simple- if you are capable of looking at real-world effects rather than just hypothetical ideals.

Because of Microsoft's size, position, and traditional approach, there is virtually nothing they CAN do that won't cause damage to the computer industry (defined as 'anybody else'), if not in the short term then in the long term. Microsoft's needs are incompatible with many things ordinary citizens might see as important.

Now, you can be hired by them and rationalize this, deciding 'we make the best everything, therefore we SHOULD be the ones controlling things', or you can refuse to consider the idea, choosing to avoid the situation. But you can't get around the fact that for Microsoft to expand further from a position of roughly 95% domination of an important technology sector, the only way for them to continue to get bigger is to begin seriously stepping on people's toes. It is NOT possible to expand further from that by being nicey nicey. Normal markets don't give you that big a slice of the pie- in fact it rather stops a market dynamic from developing at all.

So there IS nothing Microsoft can do that can be considered decent, from this point. If they sue hackers, right, that's considered evil. If they buy up all the hackers? They're impoverishing computing itself, and the ideas of those people may never see daylight- especially if those ideas have the effect of empowering people in virtually any way. There's not much in the way of new ideas that would directly benefit Microsoft- they're already sucking maximum money out of OEMs and consumers and to expand beyond that really limits the scope of possible inventions. Too many inventions could lead to more efficient computer use and potentially reduce the payment to Microsoft- the only ones allowed to survive are ones that would somehow make people pay even more, and that's very difficult.

That's why Microsoft hiring people (even talented people- ESPECIALLY talented people) is not good either.

Unless you're ready to argue that Microsoft's prepared to diminish its influence and become less influential and powerful?

Re:This makes me sick!

[Hater's Leaving, The]

Microsoft _Research_ employs CAR Horn, as he used to be known by some students...
They're a financially independent company.
In theory at least.

THL.

Re:This makes me sick!

[Hater's Leaving, The]

OK, so NCSA never existed. You must be right. I must have been halucinating when I thought I was running a graphical browser before Microsoft had even decided that TCP/IP was a useful protocol.

Yes you're right. NCSA ever existed. Sorry, my mistake.
THL.

At last!

[urbieta]

After hacking games since those Atari times, at last I get a job oportunity! :)

Mom is already crying because I wont be home all day long! :(

Mystery! Intrigue!

[TACD]

Which will be larger... the XBox, or the hackers hired to break it?

My opinion...

[MattC413]

Ackbar: "It's a trap!"

-Matt

Re:My opinion...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, from Army of Darkness (appropriate title, no?):

Ash: It's a trick. Get an axe.

Re:My opinion...

[DrEldarion]

Come on then! Fucking COME ON!

no thanks.

[Naikrovek]

Will any of the Xbox Linux participants take a stab at this job?

Why? So they can be part of the winning team that kills modchips forever?

no thanks.

Re:no thanks.

[Ooblek]

Don't be too sure. Jobs are not easily found out there now, and the money is probably good.

There are always sell outs out there. They have people that wrote code that tries to track down P2P file swappers. I'm sure there are more than a few out there that are just chomping at the bit to help implement the USA-Wide identity card stuff. When you gotta eat, and you're tired of living in a cardboard box, principles go right out the window.

Re:no thanks.

[Naikrovek]

When you gotta eat, and you're sick of the cardboard box, you don't abandon your morals for cash. you do everything in your power to live as good of a life as you can without throwing your morals out the window.

That's what morals are. The world is what we make it, pal, if you're so quick to do the wrong thing for a quick buck, then you go do that. I'm going to keep my spine and do what's necessary to live with myself & sleep at night.

I'm doing my part to make the world a place less driven by the dollars, and driven more by intelligence. Can you say that you're doing the same?

Money is a tool, and nothing more. It is to help you get out of the gutter & put you in a comfortable place and be able to provide for your children. It is NOT incentive to abandon your judgement.

Re:no thanks.

[rnd()]

Even if you think modchips are a Good Thing, that doesn't mean you should take a job at Microsoft creating DRM stuff.

Why not enjoy the sport of it and let the best hacker win. That's what it's all about, isn't it? Not about turning down perfectly good dollars so that technology can stay "easy" to mod.

Re:no thanks.

[jethro200]

First of all, i wouldn't exactly call preventing people from hacking products, and breaking the agreement they made when they purchased those products a case of "bad judgement". Second, if you want the world to be more driven by intelligence, the you should enojy the challenge this will present to all the hackers out there when it is harder to crack. Third of all, you have obviously never lived in a cardboard box, or anywhere close to it. When your kids are hungry, and the electric is about to get shut off, you don't really give a damn about whether or not people will be able to run linux on their xbox. there are more imortant things in life than that.

Re:no thanks.

[jpt.d]

A flaw: I bought the product not a license. I own that product, I will do what ever the hell I want with it. If it took defending myself than so be it.

Re:no thanks.

[Raiford]

yes but the exchange leaves you with something that would be less than a good life ...

Re:no thanks.

[Ooblek]

Yeah, that all works fine for the college kid who likes to gloat over his SourceForge community project.

While I didn't mean that *I* would throw my morals out the window for a buck, it is certainly a fact that your ideal world where everyone sticks to their guns is a fantasy. I've seen far too many 20ish people have the same attitude as you, and I'm as guilty as anyone is. When you decide that you're sick of seeing this know-nothings drive the nice cars while you're deciding if you want to pay rent or fix yours, or possibly just fricking sick and tired of living with five other roomates to be able to afford rent, your morals will disappear too.

Then try raising a family. You don't have the luxury of morals when you have children crying themselves to sleep because they are hungry. I'd stick a knife in the next person if it meant the difference between feeding my family and upholding my morals, and I don't apologize for it.

Re:no thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

if you cant make money doing moral deeds than your just plain stupid.

if you have kids without money to support them you're just plain stupid.

if you put yourself in that position from the start your just plain stupid.

!!!

Re:no thanks.

[Jonathunder]

"Then try raising a family. You don't have the luxury of morals when you have children crying themselves to sleep because they are hungry. I'd stick a knife in the next person if it meant the difference between feeding my family and upholding my morals, and I don't apologize for it."

Especially when raising children, morals are not a luxury.

I hate preaching, so let me be plain. If you mean the last sentence about sticking a knife if that's what it takes, please don't breed.

Re:no thanks.

[GoatPigSheep]

maybe they want to work for one of the worlds biggest software companies and make a good salary? Have you checked the job market lately? Nobody with half a brain would turn down a job offer like this.

Re:no thanks.

[jackbang]

Who says that someone has to abandon their morals in order to take on that job? Maybe it would violate your morals, and maybe it would violate mine too. But surely there is a damned good coder out there who loves working on security issues who also happens to think that DRM is a good idea and that businesses have a right to protect and control their proprietary systems.

Why is it that good programmers are automatically equated (at least on Slashdot) with rabidly anti-Microsoft anti-business anti-patent viewpoints? There are brilliant people on both sides of the fence. All you can really conclude is that Slashdot is not the place to post a help wanted ad for that particular job.

Re:no thanks.

[javacowboy]

Money is a tool, and nothing more. It is to help you get out of the gutter & put you in a comfortable place and be able to provide for your children. It is NOT incentive to abandon your judgement.

I agree wholeheartedly, but try telling that to our elected officials.

Re:no thanks.

[Doomdark]

Um, actually I think you are confusing "moral" with "ideals" here. According to your moral code (ethics), it is not only ok, but probably even the right thing to do, to kill someone instead of letting your kin to starve (from your last example). You wouldn't be losing your moral values. You would be doing moral judgment based on your moral code. Ideally, of course, you'd prefer not to kill anyone, but in this case you have to choose the lesser of evil, using whatever moral system you have.

Same applies to most other examples. Keep in mind that there's no single universal moral code, nor are moral codes absolute.

Of course there is the difference between survival (starving vs. working for evil masters), and simpler priorization between "right" and "convenient"... but I felt poster tried to make the point of at least considering why people do the things that are against their ideals, not to claim everyone always does what they thought is the right to do, no matter what.

Re:no thanks.

[dperkins]

Keep in mind that there's no single universal moral code, nor are moral codes absolute.

I couldn't disagree more. There ARE absolutes that govern our existence. There are laws that govern morality as there are laws of physics that govern our physical existence. There are physical consequences for violating physical laws, and moral consequences for violating the laws of morality.

Don't try to tell me that there aren't, because asserting that morality is relative becomes a pretty ridiculous philosophy when a 15 year old girl is raped by a 40 year old man. Despite the fact that he asserts that it is within his "moral code" to do so doesn't mean that I wouldn't put my vote for the death penalty if I were sitting on the jury.

Even a moral relativist has to acknowledge that society cannot function if society doesn't establish absolutes and stick to them. Our society is disintegrating in front of our very eyes because of attitudes like this.

Re:no thanks.

[markw365]

Heh, you don't have kids that destroy games. If everytime your kid scratched up a cd and you had to buy a new one, you'd be modchipping everything you had.

Re:no thanks.

[Xenkar]

Please hand your children over to children and youth services in your area and have a nice long vacation at a psycho ward. You are a sick fuck who doesn't deserve to pass on any genetics. Besides, I don't think it is mentally healthy for children to eat human flesh.

Re:no thanks.

[Alex Belits]

Then try raising a family. You don't have the luxury of morals when you have children crying themselves to sleep because they are hungry. I'd stick a knife in the next person if it meant the difference between feeding my family and upholding my morals, and I don't apologize for it.

Solution: kill yourself and your spouse if you have any. Then your kids will be orphans, and whatever food they will get in an orphanage will be far better than whatever you will get them by killing a random person.

And if your situation is not as desperate to do that it's quite natural to hold you to the same moral standards as the rest of humankind.

Re:no thanks.

[Alex Belits]

Right. Now show me even a single genuinely happy person in this country.

Re:no thanks.

[trezor]

I support the American war on intelligence

If it weren't for the fact that the US now has the most stupid president of all time, and that he specificly wants to combat the entire planet, I'd go for the same thing as well. Yeay.

Re:no thanks.

[Graspee_Leemoor]

"I couldn't disagree more. There ARE absolutes that govern our existence. There are laws that govern morality as there are laws of physics that govern our physical existence."

I believe the quote from one of the Hellraiser movies (2 I think):

"There is no good. There is no evil. There is only flesh".

graspee

Re:no thanks.

[Torne]

Then what are they? If there are absolute moral laws, what are they?

Your example is stupid. Just because he says that it is within his moral code doesn't mean you can't condemn him - your judgement is based on *your* moral code, not his. So even then, it's still relative. The jurors each make a personal judgement based on their own moral codes. Relative.

Society is already functioning without any absolutes. If 'don't kill people' was an absolute moral law in our society, then murder wouldn't happen. The closest thing we have to absolutes is criminal law, and even that doesn't qualify because it is possible (although often very hard) to escape it.

If our society can't deal with the entirely correct attitude of moral relativism, then it *needs* to disintegrate and be replaced by something which can deal with it.

Re:no thanks.

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Frankly, you shouldn't have a family until you are ready to provide for them in a sufficient manner. And when you do the calculations - make sure you can raise twins.

Otherwise - wear a fucken rubber. There's more than enough people in the world already.

Re:no thanks.

[spruce]

Back in Rome it used to be a popular practice for men to have sex with young boys. If you look throughout history, morals change radically over time. So while there might be morals within a society, that doesn't mean there's an absolute.

Re:no thanks.

[0x0d0a]

Which has happened regularly throughout history, and I suspect would happen again if we fat lazy types in the US were ever in actual danger of starving.

Re:no thanks.

[Doomdark]

I couldn't disagree more. There ARE absolutes that govern our existence. There are laws that govern morality as there are laws of physics that govern our physical existence.

Don't try to tell me that there aren't, because asserting that morality is relative becomes a pretty ridiculous philosophy when a 15 year old girl is raped by a 40 year old man. Despite the fact that he asserts that it is within his "moral code" to do so doesn't mean that I wouldn't put my vote for the death penalty if I were sitting on the jury.

I find it ironic you strongly disagree with "no moral absolutes", and then give nice examples that pretty much underline what I said.

It's silly to compare man-made laws to laws of physics. Former are chosen usually to protect society, to discourage disruptive behaviour. Latter can be considered more or less absolute laws of nature.

In your rape case, it's not moral absolute you are talking about; in nature similar situation is nothing unheard of, nor necessarily wrong from predator's viewpoint. However, it is almost universally condemned by most all societies and religions. And reasons are much more practical; such behaviour is bad for society, individual being raped, and according to most religions, for the offender. But there's no universal "law of moral" that would apply. Even if 99.9999% of people agreed (hell, even if every human being agreed), that wouldn't make it any more absolute.

And notice that I (like most normal people) would a consider the act definitely wrong, according to my moral code. No problem there. Just like I might consider your death sentence verdict morally wrong. In latter case you would most likely have made a judgment between "raping is bad" versus "killing human is bad", and (for once) consider killing to be lesser evil. And notice that it's just your judgment, your moral values. Nothing absolute or universal.

Re:no thanks.

[MrFredBloggs]

"Don't try to tell me that there aren't, because asserting that morality is relative becomes a pretty ridiculous philosophy when a 15 year old girl is raped by a 40 year old man"

When a girl has been raped by a man, saying anything is irrelevant.

Are you sure you aren't confusing your opinion that its wrong to rape people (which most people share) with the absence of any objective tests for what people *should* do?

Re:no thanks.

[Doomdark]

Not really, from my perspective, but YMMV. :-p
I was referring to killing as in "sentencing rapist to death", and comparing that to "that sick bastard raping the girl"... both that many people would consider wrong (although rape part would be almost universally considered wrong, whereas death penalty would probably get something like 50-50 split).

Hell's Help Wanted Ad

[Alien54]

Almost sounds like Satan putting up a Help Wanted advertisement, looking to recruit more staff for the circles of hell

[I cam sure that others could cook up something like this, a poster or something, with far greater finesse than this quick effort]

• "Tired of Creative Freedom?"
• "enjoy screwing with the minds of others?"
• "do you take sadistic pleasure in your work?"

  Then You may qualify to Become a Minion for his Satanic Majesty today

Re:Hell's Help Wanted Ad

[Ted_Green]

"Tired of Creative Freedom?"
"enjoy screwing with the minds of others?"
"do you take sadistic pleasure in your work?"

Two out of three ain't bad.

Re:Hell's Help Wanted Ad

[Phosphor3k]

Hmmm. Where do I sign up?

Re:Hell's Help Wanted Ad

[machine of god]

"enjoy screwing with the minds of others?"

"do you take sadistic pleasure in your work?"

Then You may qualify to Become a Minion for his Satanic Majesty today

actually, it sounds like I might like this job.

Re:Hell's Help Wanted Ad

[Grishnakh]

You really insult Satan by comparing him to Microsoft. Even Satan doesn't stoop to such depths that MS does.

This calls for 10 questions to that newly employed

[urbieta]

We should ask the new microsoft employee to answer the 10 best questions in ASK SLASHDOT section!

That would be fun, question No. 1
q 1.- Are you forbidden to disclose your real name?
a 1.- yep!

MS rounding up mod chip makers

[rob-fu]

from the job application...

1. Do you have expertise with modification chips?

2. If so, do you know other people who have your level of expertise with these chips?

3. If you answered yes to number 3, provide the names, addresses, telephone numbers, and email addresses of all of these people. We're interested in prosecuting^H^H^H^H^H contacting them.

What better way to beat the mod chip makers then to recruit them.

Re:MS rounding up mod chip makers

[mcpkaaos]

I'm not sure you should apply for that position. I get the feeling from your post that you are the type of coder that often has rounding issues and tends to get stuck in infinite loops. :)

--
[McP]KAAOS

BS Required

[Nintendork]

"BS in Computer Science or Computer Engineering required."

There's hacking classes in college? Somebody needs to smack the entire H.R. dept. for weeding out a lot of talented folks.

-Lucas

Re:BS Required

[BlueGecko]

It's OK. All they're requiring is that you have said some BS about software and hardware. I'd think any of us could do that.

Or is that not what they meant?

Re:BS Required

[DavesError]

Simple explanation, tons of CS departments around the country brai MS is the greatest! nwash their students into being friends of MS.

Re:BS Required

[Jerf]

To give a serious answer, this sort of job would really benefit from a good grasp of formal methods and provability of correctness, along with a firm grasp of the theoretical underpinnings of security beyond just practical experience cracking it; you can crack things all your life and still be only marginally more competent to create a good system yourself then the next programmer. (Indeed, you may suffer for the exposure to so many bad examples.)

Of course you might learn all of this outside of school... but the same people who sneer at school tend to sneer at this level of understanding and also seem to think that computer science == programming. Requiring a degree is one step towards weeding those folks out. (Remember that weeding a person out is not free from a business perspective, so it literally pays to have such easy criteria to filter on.) It also demonstrates a certain minimal facility with working with this sort of rigor, which is one of the greatest glaring weaknesses in the most self-taught computer scientists^W programmers.

Given the background necessary to really do a good job, I'm kinda surprised they aren't requiring a Masters or PhD in related speciality. Perhaps that would narrow the market too much.

Re:BS Required

[Kenshin]

Hey, I know plenty of people who can talk bullshit all day about computer science and stuff. I just tune them out, though.

Re:BS Required

[piser]

Considering the person who originally hacked X-Box is a college (albeit graduate) at MIT, I don't see why you find this so surprising.

Re:BS Required

[prockcore]

The ironic thing is that up until a few years ago, Bill Gates himself wouldn't qualify for that job, since he dropped out.

Re:BS Required

[Turmio]

Sure they do, I bet every university out there has a course on practical computer security. Should be, at least. My university's is here, probably not very interesting though since it's in Finnish. Basically first you choose a topic which can be from cracking DES to hijacking TCP session to hacking into WWW/FTP/DNS/NFS server. Then you make a written plan then you do the hack (within the lab network :) and then you get a grade.

Re:BS Required

[kubrick]

Are his degrees real or honorary? You try going for a job with an honorary PhD and see how far it gets you...

Re:BS Required

[ShoeHead]

No, they want responsible, proven people. If you can't stick it out for 4 years of college, in a comparitively easy major (don't even try to argue this--few colleges make CS hard) then you probably don't belong at a Fortune company, no matter what color hat you'll be wearing.

If your parents don't have enough money for college, and you make it through anyways, more power to ya. I really do respect you.

Re:BS Required

[FleaPlus]

There's actually a course on Information Warfare taught at CMU. First assignment:

Your task, should you choose to accept it, is to gather information about one of three instructors in this course (Benoit, Scott, or Tim). The one you select is your 'target'. They are all wanted by the U.S. Government for crimes against students. In order to more successfully prosecute them for these crimes, we need to know every bit of information on them.

Re:BS Required

[poot_rootbeer]

They're not just looking for talented hackers, though. They're looking for talented EMPLOYEEs.

And like it or not, you will not fit into the corporate culture at Microsoft unless you have a college degree.

The "self-taught computar expurts" out there might be inclined to say this is a good thing, but it's not.

Re:BS Required

[jack torrence]

Gee whizz! I wonder how anybody got anything done at all before Master's or PhD's were invented as a Control > Learning method? I suppose you are one of this elite group yourself, otherwise you wouldn't be so fanatical to defend its premise. Remember, no matter what, software runs hardware. What is this 'good grasp of formal methods and proveability of correctness' dialetical crap? You think any of that matters to people who can hack anything on the planet? You already blew your basic whine when you acknowledge that such levels of inside-the-formal-box training [papers] are perhaps needed to defeat the successful efforts of the great unwashed and uneducated hordes of illegal outsiders who, no matter what you say, got there first. Get a grip, maybe you need to spend more time with lesser beings.

Unhackable...

[uberkuba]

M$ has the master plan to create "unhackable" devices. This can not be done through removing the current generation of hackers from the equation. But even if they succeed they are not going to get rid of the problem of cracking and piracy. By introducing "safe" computing platforms they are going to make the problem worse.
Someone WILL work out a way of controling the "unhackable" device. But because that device will be trusted they would then have the power of causing more damage then now as there will be fewer safeguards higher up the chain.
Anyway, it could be a cool job as long as there is no contractual sideffects, ie "Thou shalt not own xbox or work for competition in the forseeable future because thou knoweth of the secret M$ back door blah blah blah...". If you are already into hardware modding I think its unlikely that you'd get to do anything new at M$ though.

Commercial Interests

[HermesHuang]

Like it or not, software companies do need to turn a profit to keep on working and paying salaries and stuff. And when you start making game consoles, all your profits are from selling the games.
If you want a computer, get a computer. It won't cost much more, and works so much better as a computer. Game consoles are inherently different beasts - I know from various gaming friends that we who prefer computer games never see eye-to-eye in terms of what makes a good game with the people who prefer console games. And the name of the game with a console is being exclusive. Computers are designed to do everything under the moon with the right program. Consoles only run games, and only those specifically made for it. There's a reason they don't publish API's for a game console.

If you made Halo for computers, no one would by Xbox's, and much fewer people would be buying the game (for the computer). Consoles simply are not computers, and I don't think we should treat them as such. PDA's are much closer to computers then game consoles.

Re:Commercial Interests

[dwgranth]

If you made Halo for computers, no one would by Xbox's, and much fewer people would be buying the game (for the computer). Consoles simply are not computers, and I don't think we should treat them as such. PDA's are much closer to computers then game consoles.

Check out this... Halo is going to be released for PC.. this argument is moot then.

http://www.bluesnews.com/cgi-bin/articles.pl show=386


And for the xbox being meant as only a console.. well.. the line has really really blurred since you can check out the very computer-like specifications here... geez

http://www.xboxgamers.com/hardware/console/index.s html

Re:Commercial Interests

[chris_mahan]

Like it or not, companies don't have to turn out a profit. They can go out of business so that their badly designed, badly implemented, highly buggy (but admirably marketed) software can once and for all be removed from circulation like the cheap hoe that it is, and allow real programmers who write really good and reliable software to make computers secure and easy-to-use so the rest of society can go back to their respective careers instead of having to try to remember what kind of file extension is safe to left-click in an email message.

Re:Commercial Interests

[HermesHuang]

If they're that bad, then they will. But in the meantime, they'll try every means they have to turn a profit, and I still respect their right to do that, no matter how poorly run they are.

Re:Commercial Interests

[chris_mahan]

but not if it means breaking the law.

Call me crazy, but...

[Faust7]

I don't think Microsoft is too concerned about the Xbox Linux Project. :)

Re:Call me crazy, but...

[ramdac]

You're crazy.

Re:Call me crazy, but...

[jsse]

In my opinion they're concerned. XBox is kinda a pilot for future DRM implementation. In fact they could really gain experience from XBox Linux Project to improve DRM...

Re:Call me crazy, but...

[warmcat]

This is evidently the case, as no one working on the project has had any approach from MS so far.

I think they see it as some distance away from the center of gravity of their customer base, which is mostly pimply -> wrinkly twitchers. Plus they probably rightly see that actually very few of their customers overall will ever get a modchip that is necessary to run it.. 1%-5% something like that.

However the other week Michael Steil, the project lead had Open Office up. That really made me think, with a little more maturity and slickness, quickly and easily booting into being able to run Mozilla, Mplayer, Office apps, all from a free CD and a $10 USB keyboard could potentially give MS nightmares from several angles. What's needed now is a) to still work with the new 'secure' version that's in the pipeline, and b) preferably some way to get control of the machine without a modchip.

On the job offer, most of the folks working on the project are in the EU, and several (although not necessarily all) do not find themselves philisophically aligned with the aims of MS. But if anyone wants to join them, I'd wish them good luck against the modchip manufacturers, they'll need it. I think that kind of job could be interesting, but if they day dawns that you 'win', the excitement fades, the scales fall from your eyes and you look around at the smoking ruins you have caused.

Re:Call me crazy, but...

[bobKali]

They're probably worried that anyone from Xbox Linux is already tainted with the GPL and could "infect" Xbox.

Not the first time...

[Farrax]

Turbine Entertainment, who make Asheron's Call (Microsoft's MMORPG offering), have been hiring the people who hack it for quite some time now. Turns out if you are able to hack the system, sometimes you're a bigger expert on it than the people who made it!

(No joke... Todd Berkbile, AC's lead systems programmer now, came from "Todd's Hacking Zone" -- and he's modified some core systems that his predecessors were scared to touch due to flammability.)

Re:Not the first time...

[BlacKat]

Microsoft are the publisher's of Asheron's Call as well, so it's really not like it'd be the first time for them either. :)

Re:yeah right

[Anonymous Coward]

How many people do you think joined the Xbox Linux project *after* the $200,000 prize was announced? I'd venture quite a few...

Seems like a decent way.

[fireboy1919]

I just pictured this conversation in my head:

Minion: Sir?
Head of XBox Development: Yes?
Minion: We've been hearing reports of people hacking the XBox. Apparently its quite easy.
Head of XBox Development: (rubs temples) Alright. How many do you think there are?
Minion: Pardon?
Head of XBox Development: How many developers?
Minion: Oh. Couldn't be more than 30, sir.
Head of XBox Development: (breathes a sigh of relief) That's all? You had me worried for a minute there. Is the alligator pit and trapdoor working?
Minion: Yes sir. I just had maintenence check it over this morning.
Head of XBox Development: Excellent. And the other alligators?
Minion: The lawyers? Already creating reasonable doubt.
Head of XBox Development: Good. Alright, post a job offer with a handsome salary. Make sure you put the word "hacker" in it.
Minion: I'll get right on that-
Head of XBox Development: One more thing!
Minion: Yes, sir?
Head of XBox Development: Make sure slashdot finds out. Wouldn't want to miss any developers, now would we?
Minion: (smiles evilly) No, sir. I'll give our friends over there a call.

Re:Seems like a decent way.

[Milo77]

This is strangely reminicent of an old "Carmen" song/story. If you know who I am talking about, you'll know what I am talking about :) Otherwise, mod me down...

Re:Seems like a decent way.

[jsse]

That's funny, but you guys are way too paranoid. Microsoft always hires people who has absolutely no experience in their products. I know a dude actually told them he only has UNIX experience during the interview and he was hired for $77000 per an.

Hey

[ArchieBunker]

MS is making an offer, these people are free to ignore them or take it. What right do you have telling people who they should be allowed to work for?

Anyone who takes this offer...

[UrGeek]

...need to lose the title "hacker" or "geek" for life. You will be joining a company were the VP in charge of their number one product (Windows) admitted to God and everybody that they suck. His excuse is "We all suck". I take great offense that, we do NOT all suck and I guarantee that you will never, never, NEVER find me touching a button for this organization if I live to 10 billion years!

Re:Anyone who takes this offer...

[TheCabal]

I'm sorry, I must have missed the announcement that you were appointed as Dude in Charge of Title Endowments.

Re:Anyone who takes this offer...

[zztzed]

I take great offense that, we do NOT all suck and I guarantee that you will never, never, NEVER find me touching a button for this organization if I live to 10 billion years!

9,999,999,999 years and 11 months later...

"Mr...uh, UrGeek, sir? We're here from Microsoft...after ten billion years we've had a sudden attack of morality and we've decided to dissolve the company, and we were wondering if you'd like to press the button that will detonate all Microsoft campuses in the universe with a massive nuclear blast."

Depends on where you went to school

[Carnage4Life]

There's hacking classes in college? Somebody needs to smack the entire H.R. dept. for weeding out a lot of talented folks.

I distinctly remember taking a Linux kernel hacking class when I was in college which amongst other things included hacking Linux on the iPaq. I also seem to remember that one of my group members was in a video game class at the same time which included projects such as hack Quake I.

Unnamed Patron

[Perdo]

Perhaps the unnamed patron of the Linux X Box project is microsoft itself. They have been known to have an odd way of conducting job interview, this being an interview process similar to Halflife's.

As the old saying doesn't say...

[compwizrd]

If you can't beat them,

Hire them.

Definition Please

[maxphunk]

Dear Microsoft, Please define "game hacking knowledge."

One thing your forgetting here...

[Skuld-Chan]

Is that were in an economic depression. One thing is for sure - if I was into xbox hacking and I had a CS degree (I don't - I was a social studies major) I would be applying. Judging by the last job fair (where it reminded me of getting into a insanely popular night club) here in Portland I think there's going to be a lot of CS/Engineer people applying too.

This is doubly so if you live in Oregon, Washington or California - where unemployment is still 1st, 2nd and 3rd highest in the nation respectively.

I mean its either that or going to work for stream international :).

Re:One thing your forgetting here...

[Doomdark]

That's assuming those hackers don't have actual jobs... which is not all that likely, even in this economy?

Re:One thing your forgetting here...

[Skuld-Chan]

Hardly - I've met some very taleted people in Oregon and Washington who are jobless - mostly because the company they worked for needed extra cash fast. Thats what happened to me.

I mean consider - MS is hiring 5000 people (or something like that) I read in the newspaper that they got over 100,000 applications - a lot of those were for cs/engineering positions

Open Letter to Microsoft

[We're All Alike]

Dear Microsoft:

I am fully qualified for the position you have listed. In fact, I may be one of the most qualified applicants around. I have been hacking copy protect mechanisms since I was 7. I have something to tell you. You have heard this before from people just like me, but you have not listened.

You do not seem to realize that what you are doing, in your attempts to introduce completely 'trusted' computers, is evil. I'm not referring to your usual misguided 'save the world by taking it over' style of evil, I'm talking more of a killing kittens for fun kind of evil. You are, whether it is your intention or not, going to remove general purpose computing from the hands of the non-experts, and they won't know enough to stop you. Depending on your success I forsee one of two final results. The likeliest option is that you go out of business in 80 years, because your 'innovations' stunt the technological development of an entire generation and alienate those few who are intelligent enough to have become programmers anyways. In this case, you will set back humanity's development by hundreds of years. Or, alternately, you drive your existing user base to other platforms and go out of business in 5 years. I doubt you will allow the second option to happen.

I have not participated in the efforts to hack your hardware (XBox) previously because I did not want to support you by purchasing one. Now, I see the light. I, with the help of other slashdotters, have realized that the XBox is just a test run of your trusted computing initiatives. It is a chance for you to find the bugs in your system and fix them on a platform which attracts hackers, yet presents no serious loss when it is hacked. I have no doubt in my mind that if you manage to perfect this architecture you will waste no time in implementing it in desktop PCs and using your monopoly power to force a significant number of users over to it.

Therefore, this is my notice to you. I will not let you succeed. I am qualified for your position, but I will not be applying. I will be adding my intelligence to the effort to stop you, and I will succeed. And if I do not, it does not matter. Because I am not alone. You may stop this individual, but you can't stop us all. And, in the end, you will lose. I promise.

-JM
101010

(Posted anonymously because Microsoft's lawyers are more expensive than mine.)

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[His Nastiness]

Actually this was the original scripted ending for the matrix but neo had to keep popping quarters into the phone so they cut it down a bit

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[gafferted]

I may be one of the most qualified applicants around.
[...]
(Posted anonymously because Microsoft's lawyers are more expensive than mine.)

Highly qualified, but without the competence to check the "anon" box :-)

Andrew

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[tuxedo-steve]

Parent is not offtopic! In fact, it's very relevant (not to mention funny).

See this Penny-Arcade strip.

We need a +1 (Previous moderator missed the point) option. :)

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[Anonymous DWord]

So they can pick between one of two options: going out of business in 5 years, and going out of business in 80 years? As a stockholder, I know which one I'd go for...

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[Tony-A]

One comment posted by that user id.
I would imagine that he or she is rather more anonymous than by just checking the anon box.

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[Frank of Earth]

>And, in the end, you will lose. I promise.

You can hack all you want, but as long as the mod chips require you to solder in 25+ points on the actually xbox mother/daughter card, good luck winning.

When it comes down to it, nobody wants a xbox linux system that is already out dated and needs a mod chip [50+ bucks], usb keyboard and mouse.

Well, maybe if you're one of those /. linux fanatics that must have everything running linux, then I'm sure you'll spend the time to do it, but otherwise, your time would be better spent taking care of some orphan kittens or calling mom to say Hello.

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[His Nastiness]

I know this is completely off topic and a reply to my own reply, but I figure this story is a day old and almost no one will ever read this. This is how desperately pathetic I am. Up until today I had nearly bad karma and an average moderation of 0 or so. When my post got modded to "5, Funny" I walked around the whole damn day with a stupid smile on my face. I'd make a joke to a coworker or my fiance and when they didn't laugh I would indignantly inform them that I am in fact "plus 5, Funny" and therefore, well, funny. It's sad, perhaps, that the best thing to happen to me in the last several days is that a comment I made got "5, Funny). Thank you Slashdot.

Re:Open Letter to Microsoft

[Perky_Goth]

you ARE pathetic...

the worst part is i'm still waiting for my +5 funny :p

Do what I did.

[SHEENmaster]

When I got my first job last summer, I flat out refused to sign anything but the paper giving them the right to deposit my paycheck.

I still got the job. I doubt M$ would accept that.

Try signing John Doe to those documents, see if anyone notices.

Re:Do what I did.

[cruelworld]

Yeah, but Burger King isn't too strict with those NDA's

Re:Do what I did.

[ClickNMix]

When I got my first job last summer, I flat out refused to sign anything but the paper giving them the right to deposit my paycheck.

What was that doing however?

There are good reasons why there are documents in place that stop people sharing out product knowledge they learn while working on projects.. If you want to work with privilaged information, you need to take responsability for that.

Re:Do what I did.

[ChaosDiscordSimple]

Refusing to sign documents can work pretty well. I never signed the employment agreement at my last job because they repeated failed to get me the changes they promised. ("Hey, Alan, could you sign the employment agreement?" "Sure, as soon as you get me a revised agreement per our verbal agreement when I accepted the position." "Oh, sure, I'll have that soon." Repeat every four months until I left.) A similar technique worked for a friend.

However, signing a false name to the documents (John Doe), is pretty clearly fraud and could get you in trouble if the company pressed the issue in court. Don't do it.

MS not known for good GUI

[djupedal]

In MS speak, 'apply' and 'submit' are synonymous. No one ever 'applies' to work for MS. You 'submit' to the collective.....remember? This page starts the brainwashing and indoctrination up-front.

Note a mouseover on the submit button does use the word 'apply'. But why-oh-why doesn't someone check these things...oh, wait..this is /. - I mean MS.

Re:The perfect opportunity!

[huinya]

It is sad admission for Microsoft to put out this help wanted sign and admit that they don't already have the inhouse talent to deal with this problem.

stole the words right out of my mouth; couldn't agree more.
--

K.

Has anyone thought of....

[StArSkY]

Has anyone thought of taking these jobs and deliberately doing a really crap job? Do it so poorly that they never succeed ;)

I wonder if anyone is a sick and twisted as me.
In Australia at the moment they have jobs going for "anti linux and anti SUN" people. The job advertisments specifically mention limiting the growth of linux and solaris in the "responsibilities" section of the job description.

get the job, take the cash, and then go around promoting linux on Microsoft's money ;)

Re:Has anyone thought of....

[SmallFurryCreature]

I think all the people at MS Quality Assurance department already thought of this before you did.

Re:Has anyone thought of....

[StArSkY]

http://www.microsoft.com/careers/international/sou thpacific.asp?lang=EN&loc=MSSP&job=90089463&jobsli st=

Sony did this with the Playstation

[Dimensio]

A number of games in Japan (and even a few in the US) included 'modchip detection' code that would prevent the game from working on Playstation consoles with modchips installed. Of course, the "protection" could be easily bypassed with either a Gameshark (or similar device) or with a crack applied to a CD image of the game. The result was that gamers who used modchips solely to play legally purchased imports were out of luck while the pirates could continue on without problems. Might have even pushed a few to the 'dark side'.

I suspect that any modchip detection code in the XBox will have a similar effect.

Re:Sony did this with the Playstation

[Froobly]

Actually, mod chip detection really just forced people to get better mod chips that required you to solder seven wires instead of just four. Big deal. This came at a time when CD burners were expensive, and it was a lot cheaper to take your console to an import shop and have the mod redone for $40.

A year later you couldn't find a mod seller who didn't carry "stealth" mods.

Warning ! This is an MS control !

[potnoodle]

"How is the hacker extermination plan going ?"
"As soon as we've rounded up the most desperate
and the geediest, we'll suck their brains out
and present them to your Filthyness in a cocktail
glass with novelty umbrella!"
"Good. Proceed."

"Right, saw right throught that ceiling and
nail their asses !!
Make sure someone signs a receipt before leaving !"

"oooh those live pictures of those free
thinkers getting busted had me soil my
StayDrys I was so excited!!!"

Quick Question

[DarkHelmet]

A background in game hacking knowledge is listed as a preferred talent

Can I take my Game Genie to the interview?

That's CarMAN... CarMAN...

[hackwrench]

not Carmen

In the center of the caverns of hell. hidden under layers of evil that have thrived for centurie, sits the morbid domain of the prince of the power of the air. Suddenly, a scaly creature disrupts Satan's ghastly existence with an urgent message. It reads, "Code red problem, conference needed, disaster forecasted!" With a disgusted annoyance this general of evil agrees to confer with his chief demon lieutenant. This is the story of that encounter:

Satan: You may enter.
Demon: My Lord Satan.
Satan: State your business and make it fast.
Demon: Sir, we're having problems of cataclysmic proportions.
Satan: Where?
Demon: In the east sector, sir. The damage is vast.

Satan: Is there something wrong with my abortion clinics?
Demon: No sir that's all fine, we kill 4,000 unborn a day through, shall we say, surgical removal. It's selective breeding, we eliminate human life in the name of convenience like the Nazis and the Jews and with the government's approval.

Satan: Is there a problem with my pet project television violence?
Demon: Sir, it's covered from videos to cartoons. By the time a child graduates high school he's seen 70,000 murders.
Satan: Is this effective enough?
Demon: Sir, just watch the news.

Satan: Is there a disturbance in my false religions?
Demon: No sir business is booming, over 40 million are into New Age and Zen, over 45 million believe in astrology.
Satan: Looks like we're catching up.
Demon: Yes sir, only 50 million claim to be born again.

Satan: Is there a problem with business in general?
Demon: Sir, we're showing tremendous progress, teenage runaways each year a million or more, there's a teen suicide every ninety minutes and your specialty drunk driving will claim more lives this year than the whole Vietnam War.
Satan: Well, is there a disturbance in my...what was that?
Demon: Sir that's the reason all these demons are on crutches and wobbling.
Satan: What's going on?
Demon: Sir that's what I've been trying to tell you.
Satan: What is that?
Demon: Sir, that is our problem.

Satan: Only one thing causes warfare of this magnitude.
Demon: Then sir you know what we're dealing with up there.
Satan: Yes, it's some of those sanctified
Demon: Try blood bought
Satan: Spirit filled
Demon: Saints of God
Satan: Actually
Demon: Presently
Satan & Demon: On their knees in prayer~
Demon: Sir, they're literal holy terrors, they bind us, cast us out. Then they do those disgusting charismatic jigs. They quote scriptures like the Son of God, and sir if you don't intervene we all might wind up in a bunch of pigs.

Demon: Sir, that's the good news, the bad news is the subject of their prayers that threatens our survival. What they're praying for is causing hemorrhaging in the realms of darkness.
Satan: And the bad news is?
Demon: They're praying for revival!

Satan: I hate revival! It just erupts, it's hardly controllable. At the Azusa Street outpouring things got rough.
Demon: Yes sir and when the charismatic movement hit, sir, we were jumping out of windows with all that "untie my bowtie who stolla my honda" stuff.

Satan: Then, I'll come in like a flood.
Demon: But they'll say the Spirit of the Lord will lift up a standard against you.
Satan: OOOOOHH.
Demon: It's written in the Word.
Satan: I'll form weapons against them.
Demon: Sir, no weapon formed against them shall prosper, that's in the Bible too.
Satan: Yes, I've heard. I'll hit them every filthy, lusty thought you could imagine.
Demon: But it's written resist the devil and he must flee.
Satan: Obviously our opponents are taking the battle more seriously than we are.
Demon: And that's very dangerous, sir. Especially for me.

Satan: It's time to launch my final most vicious attack. I'll remind the saints of their past. How they were liars, cheaters, manipulators and moochers.
Demon: But sir, you know what will happen if you remind the saints of their past.
Satan: And what is that?
Demon: Sir, they'll just remind you of your future.
Satan: NOOOOOO

Found on this page: http://www.geocities.com/ninthsaturn/rev.html
Nice touch, blaming seeing dramatised murders for causing actual ones.

Why take this job?

[m00nun1t]

Fortune Magazine lists Microsoft as one of the best companies in the world to work for.

Re:Why take this job?

[adb]

It's a cult. Everyone there loves it soooooooo much and wants to share it with you. They're smart, articulate, and scary.

When I interviewed there a couple of years ago, I noticed fairly that there is a largish Scientology outpost right on the campus. That and the "contagious enthusiasm" vibe that was coming off everybody weirded me out sufficiently that I didn't want to work there.

That said, there have definitely been concrete reasons to work there these past 20 years or so. As long as Microsoft keeps its thumb firmly on software users, its employees will have plenty of cash and benefits, nice buildings, and fascinating co-workers.

Re:Why take this job?

[adb]

• On bel-red yes, "half a mile down" no. The Scientology place might be half a mile from the hotel where MS put me up, but all the land between the hotel and the clams is MS campus if I recall correctly.
• It's not a conspiracy theory; for that, you'll have to ask the German government. I do, however, assert that perky cultish enthusiasm is a trait in common among Hare Krishnas, clams, evangelical Christians, PIRG members, and young Microsofties. (The hardcore free software advocates I know are sarcastic, not perky.)

Re:Why take this job?

[-1, Accurate]

Yeah, right, it's a cult. Dissenters are killed on sight.

Take a look at this map The Church of Scientology is on the corner of Bel-Red and 24th. The land in between is owned by a hospital (not affiliated with Microsoft.)

Need a conspiracy theory? Just south of 24th is Uwajimaya, the local Japanese grocery store. That can only mean one thing: Yes, Sony bought Microsoft! That's why they need modchips for the X-Box--they're turning it into the PS3!

Re:Why take this job?

[adb]

OK, I stand corrected, the Scientology place is most of a block away from Microsoft territory. I did hedge the first post; it's been a couple of years.

What's with the talk of conspiracy theories? I didn't say Scientology secretly controls Microsoft (or vice versa), I asserted that the attitudes of the two are unpleasantly similar, and that they are physically close together, so it is easy to imagine a substantial overlap in membership.

I'm perfectly willing to believe many Microsoft people go to the nearby pizza places too; the difference is that the people at the pizza place do not have boundless enthusiasm and a desire to convert others, nor do their organizations pursue their goals with as much large-scale aggression and Microsoft and Scientology.

Re:Why take this job?

[AX.25]

Having RJ Reynolds on that list makes me think that you pay for your placement (well that and the fact that the container store is #2).

Software Hippocratic Oath

[Windcatcher]

I read this somewhere before, and perhaps it bears restating. Maybe we need to set up a web site with a Hippocratic Oath of sorts for things we WILL NOT DO, like creating software and standards that take away freedoms. Perhaps a "Hall of Shame" as well for those who break the oath?

Re:Software Hippocratic Oath

[Graspee_Leemoor]

"Maybe we need to set up a web site with a Hippocratic Oath of sorts for things we WILL NOT DO,"

Just like the Hippocratic oath that states that the person taking it will not perform abortions ? That really stops them.

I'm not pro or con abortion- it's just interesting to note that it should be called the Hypocritic oath.

graspee

Re:Software Hippocratic Oath

[radish]

Please indicate where abortion is mentioned in the modern hippocratic oath. Lots of things are said about the oath by people who have never read it, let alone understand it. Please don't fall into that trap.

Re:Software Hippocratic Oath

[Graspee_Leemoor]

"Please don't fall into that trap."

But I like falling into traps! One of my favorites is falling into the trap of believing that my insurance covers me against attack by lemurs.

Also of course, with this reply, I have fallen into the trap of using stupid surreal humour in an attempt to get out of a situation where I showed my ignorance...

graspee

Re:Software Hippocratic Oath

[radish]

hehehehe :)

Are you sure you're not covered for the lemurs? I think I saw a clause somewhere in mine for that. Of course, if they're lesser-spotted brown-nose lemurs then all bets are off.

Re:Software Hippocratic Oath

[poot_rootbeer]

How about we don't restrict the freedoms of coders in any way, instead?

Working for Microsoft...

[ebbomega]

Is like fucking for virginity.

This reminds me of the old trick to force the...

[hackwrench]

monster to overeat so either it explodes or falls asleep so that someone can come in and kill it... That and the parable of the weeds Matt 13:24

Brian Hook of id Software said it best...

[lpontiac]

In an interview several years ago in boot magazine:

"This is my view of the people who work at Microsoft: You have a choice. You have to realize that what you're doing is bad for the industry. If you're doing stuff that you don't even agree with and do it for the money- we have a word for that: Whore."

Re:Brian Hook of id Software said it best...

[Anonymous Coward]

That reminds me of the sage advice I once received regarding getting work doing things you're good at.

"Usually, you're either a whore or a slut - either you're charging for it or you're giving it away. You might as well get paid."

It's too bad you posted AC

[hackwrench]

because I'd really like to know who you are because I had a rather similar thought...there just weren't enough backspaces.

Re:Well let me tell you.....

[Jerf]

Despite the harsh tone in your message which leaves one wondering about your personal communication skills, you probably do have more discipline then most BS holders if you truly did go through the Navy (impossible to even begin to guess with an AC). But I'd point out that I never used the word discipline (note correct spelling).

I used the word rigor. As in mathematical rigor. I bothered to reply to such an obvious troll because it's a rather common misconception. You can be as disciplined as you want, but there are certain projects that must be completed using stronger techniques, not just by trying harder. Certainly college grads don't have a lock on either trying harder or knowlege of stronger techniques, but a college grad who used college to their advantage will certainly tend towards a much stronger comprehension and broader knowlege of such techniques. It's a tendency strong enough for Microsoft to use it as a filter criterion with the confidence that they will be cutting far, far more bad prospects then they will be losing good ones.

(Another problem people have is comparing a well-motivated self-taught programmer against a frat-boy who happens to be taking Comp. Sci. as his excuse to qualify to live in the frat house. Comparing well-motivated college grads against well-motivated self-taught programmers will show wide disparities in certain skills that are importent at certain times, especially those that are the reason we call it computer science and not computer programming in college. This is one of them; creating security (as opposed to merely cracking it) is hard ; it's possible, but very hard to gain a true appreciation of the truth of that statement without either going through the classes, or replicating the class experience by reading papers in the field, texts on the subject, etc. until you might as well have taken the class. You really can't putter aimlessly around a field as complicated as security and expect to do half as well as people who have made a concentrated effort to learn from decades of experience of the best and brightest... usually in class, at least to start.)

To counter-troll, missing the distinction between rigor and discipline is exactly the sort of rigor I'm talking about. "Self-taught" programmers make exactly those sort of mistakes in truly technical fields all the time, and the shoddy software that results can be downloaded from Sourceforge anytime you like. Some problems are hard; it's really a form of hubris to think that you can do as well (or better(!)) then the entire academic community, which comprises thousands of very smart people working together. The system ain't perfect, but it's hella hard to beat working all by your lonesome.

(Another example of poor thinking is exhibited by all those "self-taught" types who see people like me claim a correlation between skills and schooling, and immediately and highly erroneously translate that to "only school can teach you skills, and it's impossible to self-teach", which is general and regrettably has little to do with whether one is schooled or not. Shades of grey, people, shades of grey.)

Or maybe...

[hackwrench]

You point, then you take modchip!

Re:Or maybe...

[Anonymous DWord]

You post like haiku
But still, what you say above
is nonsensical.

Solution to X-Box Hacking

[Anonymous Canard]

Epoxy.

You will be receiving a bill for my services shortly.

Ignoring the funny "BS" joke..

[Inoshiro]

If you're unwilling to put in the time and effort to learn all about computer science, even the hard parts you hoped to avoid by just getting a job out of high school, then you honestly aren't worth hiring.

Think about it. You are an employer, you see 10 people. 8 of them have degrees, maybe 4 of those are masters, and one of those is a Phd. Do you even consider the lamer just out of high school who doesn't have the work ethic or dedication to even do university? Do you think that lamer will be able to actually meet deadlines?

Plus you're forgoing all you'll ever learn in university, be it from a book, from a prof, or from another student. That's years of life experience you say to your potential employer that you don't want.

Really, for a group of people who like to talk down about stupid people and ignorance, a lot of geeks seem to just want to skip the hard part where they have to learn because they can't coast anymore. That's a disgusting attitude to have towards knowledge.

Re:is it just me or ..

[HermesHuang]

I'm not going to post this anonymously, but in some ways I agree with this statement. See my post earlier. What they're doing is like when Redhat makes their download link for a free download so hard to find, and so painfully slow. In the end, they want to make money. And in some ways you have to respect that. Granted there's making money, and there's stealing money. But until someone else can offer what they do in terms of an integrated set of software that a company can buy and install into 100 computers over the course of a weekend, they will continue to make money. And if people are so against their "safe computing" initiative, then there will be hardware made that doesn't support that, and those hardware makers will be the ones making the money. Or else we computer geeks will have to make due with the current generation of technology for a while. I don't know about you, but 1.53 Ghz (what this machine has) will be plenty for quite some time in terms of home computing.

Business as usual

[Citizen of Earth]

"Buy 'em out, boys!" -- Bill Gates on The Simpsons

is this suprising?

[edwolb]

This happens in all sorts of industries, especially satellite. It's a cat a mouse game of who's hackers are better, the broadcaster's or the guy in the backroom shop selling satellite cards. It's merely a who can come up with the hardest to crack hack competition..

Re:is it just me or ..

[PerryMason]

2 things;

1) Ever heard of a mirror? RedHat maybe makes it hard to download from their site because there are hundreds of mirrors around the world. Besides, who wants to download from a site that might be around the globe from you when there is more than likely a mirror a few hops away? (Yes there are financial reasons too. All that bandwidth used up by people downloading directly from RedHat isnt free.) Oh yeah, it exists at the same relative location on all mirrors, so ftp://ftp.whatever.com/pub/redhat/linux/current will always point to the latest release of the distro. (Yes this includes ftp.redhat.com) It really _isnt_ that hard to find!

2) I guarantee that I could install 100 machines with RedHat faster than you could install 100 machines with WinXP, Win2k, Win98, WinME, Win95 or any friggen Win* you care to mention. A floppy Kickstart install with DHCP assigned addresses. Hell I could make every machine a different configuration and still get them done quicker than 100 identical Windows builds. (DHCP to assign different .cfg files) To cap it off, I can edit my default install to include apt-get and then script it to update each and every box to the latest revisions of all installed packages once installation completes. The MS way would be getting every single box to connect to WindowsUpdate or to run your own SoftwareUpdateServer (which requires a Windows2000 server machine...cha-ching goes the cash register down in Redmond). Either way you are up for more expense and time.

Total cost for RedHat solution - the floppy disks used.
Total cost for MS solution - 100 x cost of WinXP/2000 + 100 CALs for the server they will likely connect to + .... + .... + ....

(Disclaimer - I am a contractor who supports both Windows and Linux on server and desktops. I have several clients with RedHat on the desktop (admittedly a somewhat customised distro) and many with Windows. Right at the moment, I am kept in a job as a result of the Windows clients constant problems and adminstration required. The RedHat sites are pretty much set and forget, with the occasional re-KickStarting (which takes 15 minutes from go to whoa) Needless to say, for my livelihood, I suggest everyone runs Windows (But fuck i hate working on them!))

As the saying goes,

[firebat162]

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

It seems like a great idea from MS' point of view... It'd be hard to prosecute them but most people are lured by the aspect of money.

So much for a job posting ?

[thinktank2]

So much talk for a job posting ? You guys are really mad ;)

Hmmm

[Kredal]

Keep your friends close, and your enemies... on the payroll!

GPL! GPL!

[kipple]

I really hope that 'xbox hackers' will release their modifications and code under the GPL, thus crippling any effort Microsoft can do to 'embrace and extend' (a.k.a. 'steal') their code.

Copy protection is fruitless.

[miffo.swe]

Some of the best programmers have tried and no single company has been able to succed. The only way to make a protection system work would be to play the game from a central server and use password protection, fingerprint, retinal scan and DNA samples before you can begin playing.

Pirating has helped some companies in gaining market and mindshare. Sony and Playstation come to mind as does Commodore 64, amiga and the PC. They wouldnt have left the ground if it hadnt been so darn easy to copy the games and apps.Imagine buying all applications on a normal PC without linux?

Should the PS1 have been as successful if it hadnt been modchipped and games pirated? I dont think so and the same goes for the PC. Install a working copy protection and your user base flies off to another platform instead.

Re:Copy protection is fruitless.

[miffo.swe]

Actually if you look at Playstation and PC software there are good examples of making money even if wild pirating occurs. Sony isnt broke and neither is MS even if MS is probably the most pirated company ever.

Yeah.

[fireboy1919]

I wouldn't really call myself a zealot. I'm an engineer. I'll use whatever I think is best; whatever I like the best.

I like IE best for webpages.
mIRC best for IRC
but
PAN best for newsgroups and
Evolution best for mail.

Gentoo is my favorite operating system, but I'll work for whoever will pay me to do stuff I love -work with math and tinker with computers.

It just seemed like an appropriate exercise in paranoia: big company hiring rivals DOES sound a bit suspicious, doesn't it? :)

A worrying trend

[henben]

Just recently, there seem to have been a lot of cases of people who speak out against the actions of companies being hired by or "forming a business relationship" with the entity they criticise.

For example:

• Jakob Nielsen and Macromedia.
• Bruce Schneier and Verisign
• British ISP critique sites such as NTHellWorld and Pipexwoe being bought out or mysteriously "re-aligning" themselves as support sites

Now I'm not accusing all these people of necessarily selling out, but obviously, if you work with a company, you're less likely to speak frankly about how much it sucks (if only because you have to take into account the interests your employees/shareholders).

It's not about lock-in, it's about lock-out

[tlambert]

It's not about lock-in, it's about lock-out.

Nintendo and other console makers of cartridge-based console games have historically dealt with this issue in a rather straight-forward and obvious way: put a patented peice of the console hardware in the cartidge itself. Nintendo used to put the console MMU on a chip in the cartridge. This was a patented chip that you had to buy from them, and they would simply refuse to sell them to you, if you didn't pay license fees and enter into royalty contracts with them. This is the "dongle" approach.

This set the stage for the current console marketing model, where the console itself is sold as a loss-leader, and the cost of the hardware is subsidized by the royalties to the console maker from the games producer, with a fixed minimum number of games (everything past that point is profit).

This model breaks when it is very easy to copy the "cartridge" because all the "cartridge" contains is data -- as is the case with a CDROM.

The response to this is to deal with it using a CDROM with a data density that is high enough that copying is not an option for the user. That's the DVDROM.

It's pretty clear that what Microsoft is working towards here is the day when they can't rely on the data density distinction to protect the fact that their "cartridge" is only data.

Part of this strategy is to establish an umbilical back to "the mother ship", so that a cryptographic system can be hung of a peg that they have physical control over.

Part of dealing with this is to build a "dongle" into the machine itself (a unique console identifier), and to combine this with the "contact the mother ship" strategy, to endure that a given console can only run authorized software.

Indeed, this needs to be the end-goal of Palladium, as well; DVD content, if it were similarly protected, would be subject to the same controls, in terms of "authorized use".

Unfortunately, such a system permits an easy conversion from a "license purchase" system to a "subscription" or a "pay per use" system, with only a change on the server software side (specifically, you would log events, and could make a seperate "business rules" decision as to which events translated into events for the billing system).

This is actually what consumers need to be worried about; it is the thin edge of the wedge toward not being able to *own* something, rather than merely leasing it.

One has to wonder what lasting monuments, if any, are being built by modern society. The Romans built roads, and most of them, with modern repaving, are still in use today. The reniassance built ornate cathedrals.

Now compare that with, say, the "Riccochet" network, which, now that the company is out of business, has merely left so many useless artifacts clamped to municipal street lights. Motorolla has done the same thing with their satellite phone system, etc..

And now, we are on the verge of doing the same thing with books and movies.

-- Terry

Re:Well let me tell you.....

[fruey]

I'm interested in what you say, being entirely self-taught in computing (basic programming, HTML and all that crap) but have also worked in industry for 4 years in security in the TCP/IP field.

However, I read widely on the Internet, read papers etc, and have broken down the TCP/IP stack at least on a theoretical level. What should I be reading about methodology in order to get a bit more up to speed?

Note: I have a degree in French and Cultural Studies from a top 10 school in the UK. I have been using and learning on the 8086 and various Unix environments since I was 8 yrs old.

Re:Well let me tell you.....

[Smid]

Personally, I think its one of those reoccuring themes on slashdot.

"formal education in computers is bad"

And yet every so often there will be a news item on a basic principle of comp science which is taught during formal education, and it will be posted as "news". "Testing is good!" "People like whitespace???"

But what I really think underlying this is "programmer snobbery". A lot of the formal educated people cannot actually cut it as programmers in the field, and shift into the satellite jobs, such as proposal writing, testing, management etc...

Still, I think arrogance in programmers is one of the worst thing about computers though...

dvd-r is already here..

[gl4ss]

along with cdrips of dvd console games... and with broadband.

DVD-R does not have the same density as DVDROM

[tlambert]

DVD-R does not have the same density as DVDROM, and won't, until multiple layer recording is supported by the writing hardware.

This is moderately irrlevant, in any case, since a DVD drive can detect the difference between a DVDROM and and a DVD-R (or DVD-RW) -- just use hardware in your box that's incapable of reading the recordable format, which is the same reason there is no single recordable format yet.

In the limit, it can be done by having a DVD-R or DVD-RW drive in the product itsel, and trying to write all 1's over the boot sector. If it's pirated software on writeable media, it's cooked.

These are just escalations of the situation without Palladium today, and we were talking about Microsoft hiring people to prototype Palladium in the X-Box to figure out how to make mod-chipping not work.

-- Terry

There is one

[Froobly]

It's called the The ACM Code of Ethics.

The ACM may not be all that pervasive in every computer science department, but considering that the ACM puts on many of the industry's biggest conventions, I'd venture to say that it binds (or rather ought to bind) a good number of the programmers out there.

I would argue that Trusted Computing violates section 1.1, "Contribute to society and human well-being."

Of course, I'd say a bunch of us violate section 1.5, "Honor property rights including copyrights and patent," so it kind of makes the point moot...

then you're a horrible parent

[Ender Ryan]

If you really mean that about sticking a knife in someone to feed your children, then you are a horrible parent. It is your job to teach your children to grow up to be decent people; sticking knives in people to feed them is just going to turn them into the fucking losers you see on Jerry Springer and Cops.

Please, for the sake of everything that is still good and decent in the world, DO NOT BREED!

200K donation

[oliverthered]

Could Microsoft have been the anonymous donner?

Lets see,
Implement a security protocol,
People start hacking it
you could then
take them down
or
Offer them 200k to complete the job and make a less crackable version next time!

Strongest line-up? Two games??? WHAT?

[Viewsonic]

Halo and DoA3 were the ONLY two games that sold well, and were even remotely worth playing (I hated them both, FYI). All those games DO use DirectX for everything. Nothing on XBox is proprietary, it's all Windows APIs. Hence, why most games are lame ports. You realise Halo was just a port from the PC version that Bungi was working on before they got bought out, correct?

GameCube had what for a line-up? Star Wars, Luigi's Mansion, Super Smash Brothers Melee, Super Monkey Ball, and Tony Hawk 3 - All 5 star games. Sure you can hate a few of those, but not all of them, they outdo the XBox line-up twice fold in anycase. The games on the GameCube now blow away anything XBox will ever see, Resident Evil, Eternal Darkness, MARIO - And by the end of the year - Metroid, Star Fox, Zelda (delayed?), Final Fantasy Adventures, and more. The XBox as a console is dead in the water. Go to Best Buy and it's sharing shelf space with DREAMCAST of all things!

PS/2 had a great lineup as well, with titles like SSX.. And newer titles like FFX, GTA3, etc that keep the sales pounding.

Re:Well let me tell you.....

[Jerf]

One thing I'd advise is to try to take a trip to your local university with a decent Comp.Sci. sequence,. Go to a student bookstore, and see what they are teaching to. In your case, I'd look in the grad student area for the network stuff and software engineering; the more mathematical stuff like graph theory may be more difficult (or not, as I don't know your background of course), but by now you probably don't care and don't need it.

The other thing is to look for The Books in your field. "Applied Cryptography" from Bruce Schneier, for instance, might be applicable from what I hear. Or if you're in OO, I'd consider "Design Patterns" indispensible (it's the other half of OO as far as I'm concerned).

And most of all, enjoy! There's some good stuff out there and I will freely admit I often wished I had a little less hand-holding. Personally, up until recently, I didn't have the discipline to do this myself. I do now but I'm so close to a degree that I might as well finish it. ;-) So for me personally, schooling has been useful as a crutch while I developed the discipline. (That's not a direct reply to you, just a general observation.)

Re:Well let me tell you.....

[fruey]

Thanks. Right now I live in Morocco (though I'm from the UK) so getting good books is not easy. I was hoping for a couple of online references... I'm sure I'll come up with something. There's always amazon et al.

Cheers,

Not Going to Hold my Breath

[DaytonCIM]

Microsoft's corporate/campus mentality doesn't strike me as one that would welcome a "hacker/cracker" into its fold... especially a person that may have "broken" MS code.

How about your 18 month old daughter?

[sideshow]

Are you going to let her starve because of "morals"? If you don't have kids/a wife/pets/etc. I guess you're lucky enough to not have obligations. But for some (most) of us, responsiblity begins and ends with our families health and well being and never even gets near weather or not something is morally right or not.

Re:How about your 18 month old daughter?

[King_TJ]

Some of you people scare/worry me.

Please don't group me in your questionable category of "most of us" who feel that our responsibilities "begin and end" with "our families' health and well-being", not even coming near our concerns of whether something is "morally right or not".

I have a wife, a 5 month old daughter, and a pet cat - so I think I'm qualified to speak on this subject.

There were times when we didn't have any money left for food, and there were no groceries left in the house. We went to the local churches and asked for some help. Sure, some of the "food pantry" food they gave us wasn't the best - but it got us by.

I suppose if I didn't think morality had anything to do with the situation - it would have been the more logical and smarter alternative to just rob a store, right? After all, I would have had to go through much less effort, and could have gotten exactly what my family needed....

I think everything has to be analyzed on a case-by-case basis. Of course, your family comes first, but that doesn't give you "carte blanche" to run around doing anything you damn well please to solve your problems. This is much like that age-old question of whether or not someone should be punished for stealing "a turkey from a supermarket" when they're homeless and broke, and have nothing to eat.

(I say absolutely yes, they should, if they're caught. Doing anything less would cause a serious breakdown in the entire concept of law, which by nature is supposed to act without prejudice.)

Granted, most things in life are far from being "black and white". There are many shades of grey. EG. Someone in that dire need of food might happen to have friends working at the store that allow them to easily steal the turkey and not get caught. Should the person still try it, knowing they have an "insider" who is willing to fake ringing up the sale to let it pass through? (Honestly, I'd probably say yes; they now have a situation where their level of risk of being caught/punished is greatly reduced, and there is a strong likelihood they need the item more than the store needs it. Perhaps most importantly, someone else is supporting their actions. They're not just acting alone in a "damn the consequences, I want what I want" frame of mind.)

One has to access all of their options and weigh the possible outcomes of their actions before acting. It's easy to say "It's my life vs. theirs!" - but does it have to be? That's a "last resort" mentality, and you probably have no business being there mentally, if you're simply concerned with feeding a family. There are so many assistance programs out there, ways and means to earn a few bucks working at "day labor" type centers, or even asking friends and relatives for a helping hand.

"And in some ways you have to respect that."

[Chris Johnson]

"And in some ways you have to respect that."

Why?

Seriously. Why? You're talking about Microsoft making money. We already know they do this in many ways, not all of which involve competing in a market dynamic on the basis of product quality. More relevantly, your specific point was, in the end they want to make money. There are other motives- wanting to work in a specific field, wanting to benefit the world, wanting to buy up the state of Washington and turn it into a nature preserve so geeks can go big game hunting with digital cameras- there are motives that involve DOING things or BEING things, positive things, negative things, whatever.

If the bottom line is no more than making the most money, they become a poster child for the ugliest repercussions of untrammeled, self-consuming capitalism. They have NO GOALS if that's all it is to them. They could just as well do it all with paper games on Wall Street and not even care what they're producing in terms of software (and in fact they are doing essentially that). They have no connection to the world apart from Hoovering money and 'valuation' from others and accumulating it, only to blow up when they can't maintain the expanding valuation.

I am serious. Why should I respect that in the slightest? Tell me something they want that's more than 'make money'. I don't care if it's 'control the entire world and replace governments'. That is evil and I still respect it more than the brainless, cancerous 'make money'. If you think 'make money' is enough, you haven't ever thought deeply about what you're doing, or what Microsoft is doing, or what capitalism is for. It's not an end in itself, it is a mechanism for society. Treated as an end in itself it is pathological.

You've won a free boat!

[samdu]

Just show up at the police station to collect your prize.

Don't sign a non-compete agreement

[Benjamin McFree]

After you sign the non-compete agreement, They'll immediatley terminate your employment which will deny you the opportunity to hack the Xbox or any other hardware platform for your naturual born life.

Xbox controllers

[el_benito]

Speak what praise you will of the Xbox you want, but I'll avoid introducing my own opinions. All I want to state is that market forces definately seem to be openly demonstrating the demise of the original oversize Xbox controller. Go into any SoftwareEtc/Babbages/Funcoland or a EB and ask them just how many of the original Xbox controllers they get in nowadays. You'll find that they're not getting any new original XL controllers in anymore. Wait, and a year from now the Controller S will have even slipped quietly in with new Xboxes

Re:Xbox controllers

[Osty]

That's cool. I have a reliable source to feed my big-ass XBox controller addiction, so I'll be okay. If at any point I hear that the original controller is going to be discontinued, I'll have to make a run on my source and stock up ...

NDA vs. Microsoft

[Phalse Impressions]

There would be an easy way to deal with this though. Keep a personal journal on your "Windows" box. Have it compromised and then all the information that you aren't allowed to tell anyone will be public knowledge. After all wasn't there a report a little while ago about Security not being Microsoft's top thing?

A very simple Microsoft solution that keeps everyone happy.

Principles and coders

[0x0d0a]

Actually, I think most people (a few idealists aside) don't really give much of a damn about principles, at least the way you're using the term.

I've written a fair amount of code on P2P clients. Why? Because it's fun! It's a neat coding project. I donate the source to the community because it doesn't cost me anything and it helps some fellow coders out.

Now, if some company came along and offered me a nicely paying job writing code for monitoring programs to build evidence for court on P2P users, or DoS programs to attack P2P networks, would I take it? Of course! That's a fun problem too.

I don't have any interest at all in turning down a job so that some pimply-faced teenager doper can get just one more Eminem song. Not a chance. That's their own lookout.

Young boys and hemlock

[0x0d0a]

Back in Rome, it used to be a popular practice for men to have sex with young boys.

I think you're thinking of Greece, though Rome supposedly had its own brands of debauchery.

This is part of what got Socrates drinking hemlock...fathers pissed off at him corrupting their sons. :-)

Moral relativism and our legal system

[0x0d0a]

...asserting that morality is relative becomes a pretty ridiculous philosophy when a 15 year old girl is raped by a 40 year old man

Actually, I've always thought that it's kind of a funny quirk of our legal system that a 15 year old boy could have sex with the same girl and it *not* be a crime.

skilled programmer = anti-MS?

[0x0d0a]

Actually, I know of four coders that work at Microsoft. The first is a Linux nut and has a Tux doll in his cubicle. The next two both prefer UNIX to Windows, and the last doesn't know a thing about UNIX but is relegated to really basic work in VB, and is a pretty poor coder.

Not that I think that this is universal, but it's a pretty good anecdote. Anyone know an MS person that really *doesn't* like UNIX?

The value of education to computer science

[0x0d0a]

Sometimes you're right, sometimes wrong.

I think that in designing new algorithms or something, there isn't really any question -- you want a solid college education.

If you're doing architecture work, your'e a software engineer, I'm a lot more dubious. I can see how missing certain skills could be an issue, but two of the most industrious and technically skilled people I know didn't get a MS -- one got a two-year degree, and the other dropped out of high school. One's written more code for the Linux kernel than most Slashdot readers, and the other did some Linux porting work and last I heard, was reverse engineering and rewriting their oven's firmware.

Also, I've seen waaay too many PhDs that are simply out of touch with the world, aren't very motivated, and like to quibble over minor details, making arguments from authority.

Now, I've also seen very good, competent PhDs -- this wasn't meant to be a blanket statement. But how often have you used those finite automata or formal proof skills you learned in school? If you're a PhD, are you still doing the same work that you did your thesis on? If not, you've blown a lot of money getting skills that you aren't using.

This is just a thought.

I've finished my BS at a prestigious computer science school, and frankly, the stuff that I've used on the job has been almost exclusively the stuff that I spent time being interested in, poking at, reading research papers on, and whatnot. The stuff I learned during school? That mostly gets thrown out.

If you consider that most classes have one or two textbooks, and that reading one or two textbooks gives you the body of knowledge in the class, you can learn a lot more on your own for less money than you can in a class.

Analysis of this open letter

[0x0d0a]

Okay, I hate to hurt this person's feelings, but his post was too far out there not to do so.

I am fully qualified for the position you have listed.

You have your BS, eh?

I have been hacking copy protect mechanisms since I was 7.

What you're 16 now? And the first few years of this involved setting back the clock on your computer and chortling to your friends about how l33t you are?

I have something to tell you. You have heard this before from people just like me, but you have not listened.

Slashdot weirdo: "Bill Gates, you are evil".

BG: "Dum de dum ...huh? What was that?"

You do not seem to realize that what you are doing, in your attempts to introduce completely "trusted" computers, is evil.

Translation: My l33t Windows game copy protection bypassing skills will be useless in your post-Armageddonesque society!

I'm not referring to your usual misguided 'save the world by taking it over' style of evil...

This man has a way of reaching out to the hearts of his audience and gaining their sympathy, no?

I'm talking more of a killing kittens for fun kind of evil.

Pay for my warezed copy of Windows? Forbid it, almighty God!

You are, whether it is your entention or not, going to remove general purpose computing from the hands of the non-experts, and they won't know enough to stop you

And what the hell "general purpose computing" experience is it that ordinary users are experiencing that is going to screw them over so much? They won't be able to pirate their Windows games any more?

Depending on your success I forsee one of two final results.

Translation: slap down your highly paid and talented executives -- I'm going to tell you the way your business is going to be!

The likeliest option is that you go out of business in 80 years, because your 'innovations' stunt the technological development of an entire generation and alienate those few who are intelligent enough to have become programmers anyways.

Earth to "We're All Alike"! MS hasn't shipped a development environment (well, except qbasic) with their systems for years, and the same goes for Apple. If we're stunted, we're stunted already. Every talented coder I know is already using Linux.

In this case, you will set back humanity's development by hundreds of years.

Smallpox will return! We'll lose all our advanced agricultural techniques! The horseless carrige will disappear!

Or, alternately, you drive your existing user base to other platforms and go out of business in 5 years.

Ah, yes. The other platforms without a stable ABI/library set/*standard filesystem layout* (Linux)? Or would that be the much more expensive, even more wannabe monopolistic platform (MacOS). You mean the platform without MS Office, or the one that MS could leave without MS Office with the snap of their fingers?

I doubt you will allow the second option to happen.

I'm sure they appreciate your confidence.

I have not participated in the efforts to hack your hardware (XBox) previously because I did not want to support you by purchasing one.

Translation: I'm unaware of the fact that you lose money on each box sold. I hate your guts already and listening to me is going to be unproductive in the extreme.

Now, I see the light. I, with the help of other slashdotters, have realized that the XBox is just a test run of your trusted computing initiatives.

BG: "Damn. Well, Slashdot has us by the balls. We better give up our current strategy."

Flunky: "Are you sure? But, sir..."

BG: "No. No, the Slashdotters have beaten us again. Retreat is the only option left to us now."

It is a chance for you to find the bugs in your system and fix them on a platform which attracts hackers, yet presents no serious loss when it is hacked.

Translation: I'm unaware of the fact that pirated software being freely traded for the XBox would represent a massive revenue loss.

I have no doubt in my mind that if you manage to perfect this architcture you will waste no time in implementing it in desktop PCs and using your monopoly power to force a significant number of users over to it.

Yes, this is pretty much what Microsoft already told all of us in their press release.

Therefore, this is my notice to you.

Throw down the gauntlet! You can take MS! Do it!

I will not let you succeed.

MS is fucked.

I will be adding my intelligence to the effort to stop you, and I will succeed.

What, by breaking XBox security and exposing another hole to be fixed on the PC? I thought you said that was bad.

And if I do not, it does not matter.

Does certainly take the wind out of the sails of the previous claim, doesn't it?

Because I am not alone. You may stop this individual, but you can't stop us all.

Translation: I read way, way too much l33t haXor propoganda. I have seen too many movies and hung out way too much on IRC making vague claims of incredible skills.

And, in the end, you wil lose. I promise.

We'll see.

(Posted anonymously because Microsoft's lawyers are more expensive than mine.)

I'm not going to say anything here...

Re:Analysis of this open letter

[His Nastiness]

I'm sorry, but only a 2 moderation?!?!? I laughed so hard I nearly poo-pooed en mi pantalones. Thank you for this. The "MS is fucked" was my favorite part. Moderate me down to negative infinity.

Re:Analysis of this open letter

[We're All Alike]

I wish my real account still had mod points, that was excellent. Damn you for making me figure out the password I used on this yahoo account :)

I felt I had to respond on a couple points. First, minor points. I past my l33t h4x0r stage before the term existed, don't worry about hurting my feelings. No, I haven't finished my BS yet, but I'm already doing research towards a Master's. (Not in CS, btw. BS in Chemical Engineering, pursuing a Master's in Biomedical Engineering.) Purchasing an XBox would be supporting Microsoft whether they are losing money on them or not. For most of the rest of your post, I'm going to presume sarcasm over ignorance.

Second, there's a serious ambiguity in my original post, and you've construed it the wrong way. When I said I would add my intelligence to the efforts to stop them, I was not referring to the efforts to hack the XBox to run alternate software. That, last time I checked, was not an effort to stop Microsoft, particularly not at the strategic level I implied. (Or at least I thought I implied.) If you look around there are several groups trying, at various levels of subtlety, to remove Microsoft from the picture. There is a lot of vapour floating around (For every conspiracy theory there appears to be an equal and opposite conspiracy theory...) but some of them seem to be legitimate.

I was trying not to be so melodramatic as to say 'Mark my words...', but, well, mark my words. :) Trusted Computing won't make any dent in the market. And just maybe, if I manage to make as big a contribution as I'm planning, I may be the main cause of it. But that's too much to hope for, as long as trusted computing doesn't take root that's enough. (Although a serious competitor to Windows would definitely be nice...)

And I shouldn't be posting at 2:30AM, I'm probably not making as much sense as I wanted to. Oh, well, hopefully you got the gist of it.

Re:Analysis of this open letter

[0x0d0a]

I wish my real account still had mod points, that was excellent.

Good Lord, you're generous.

Purchasing an XBox would be supporting Microsoft whether they are losing money on them or not

Okay. I'll give you that it increases number of sold boxes, which some might consider making game manufacturers more interested, but I strongly suspect that they look at "units of earlier game releases sold", not "units in the field" simply because people might buy fewer games for the XBox on average. So you cost Microsoft some cash, but don't seem to help them much...how does this support them?

Oh, well. Hopefully you got the gist of it.

Yup, and I'm sorry -- I did, in fact, interpret the post as claiming that you were going to break the XBox encryption.

Pretty Cool

[SuperNova2001]

I wodnt mind doing that that!! lol

Why not?

[Starship Trooper]

Makes sense to me.

I agree

[Starship Trooper]

That makes perfect sense.

Yes.

[Starship Trooper]

Wait, no.

I disagree!

[Starship Trooper]

This makes no sense at all!