US Geeks Recycle GNU/Linux Boxes for Ecuador

An anonymous submitter writes: "According to this article on Salon, geeks involved with Indymedia are recycling 300 GNU/Linux boxes to send to independent media activists in Ecuador. The machines will be used to create free public computer labs across South America, networked with donated wireless 802.11b cards. Anyone wanna chip in to help cover the shipping costs?"

Comments

Now...

[SonicBurst]

if I only lived in Ecuador! :) I mean they're giving out free 802.11b cards? I'll take some!

Re:Now...

[mastropiero]

Me too...

Wait a minute...

I AM ECUADORIAN!!

Some times good things happen to good people, sometimes, they happen to me...

Re:Now...

[Anonymous Coward]

Given a choice between free 802.11b cards, and having food on my plate, I would rather have food.

I'm glad that I am an American.

Re:Now...

[mastropiero]

Well, actually, Ecuador is pretty capable of growing its own crops, we do export chocolate, bananas, shrimp and many other stuff. We got approx 12 hours of sounlight everyday, i think thats pretty decent.

There are people here that don't have anything to eat, that is true, but the vast majority of the population has that covered. One can go to the most remote place in the country and find that at least, they eating what they grow from the earth.

If the computers and the cards get here, i hope they are used for education, that's what my country really needs.

Re:Now...

[Lemmy Caution]

Given a choice between being an American, and having a good understanding of history, economics, languages, and the difference between not being able to afford recent technology and not being able to eat, I'll take what's behind door number 2.

It's not that all Americans are this clueless - it's just that the attitude betrayed by the parent post is particularly irksome. Americans are resented for their cultural and political hegemony, not because everyone else is starving.

FreeGeek in Portland does something similar.

[Spy4MS]

They make Linux boxes out of donated parts and volunteered time. They also recycle monitors, motherboard parts and steel.
Please be gentle

Re:FreeGeek in Portland does something similar.

[gampid]

FreeGreek is actually helping out on this project a lot! They put together a bunch of the computers and helped us with the install. Despite the salon article we actually used Debian for the install not Mandrake. It was the FreeGeek folks who put together the netinstall.

Re:FreeGeek in Portland does something similar.

[Schmerd]

Not only does FreeGeek help with similar things, they were involved in this specific project too.

Re:FreeGeek in Portland does something similar.

[duck 'o death]

Thing I like about this and these folks is that, from what I gathered from the article, the indy folks are actually going to be setting these computers up themselves as they go to Ecuador to protest. Seems to be the best way to do it -- rather than just pure dumping the computers without any setup.

Article also said that Freegeek is basically training a bunch of Americans -- who otherwise wouldn't have a chance -- on putting together computers. Maybe not rocket science at that level, but hey they even get a free computer in the process!

Re:FreeGeek in Portland does something similar.

[davey]

Yeah, we collaborated heavily with the freegeek project, and many of the computers being shipped down were set up by them. We worked out of the accrc, which is a cool non-profit in the SF Bay Area. They also set up lots of Linux computers to donate to low-income families and the disabled. If you want to get involved, show up, or if you want to help, we can always use more ram or monetary doations.

Don't throw out your computer! Donate it and give it new life, or at least recycle it, since it's a hazardous waste.

Do NOT get involved with this

[Anonymous Coward]

If you are not familiar with IndyMedia, it is an extreme leftist "news" organization that is essentially committed to the destruction of America. Basically it blaims all of the world's problems on America and glorifies terrorism, like Yassir Arrifat and Osama bin Laden. It has suggested that President Bush is responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. It is extremely anti-semetic (to the point of being Nazist) and consistently attacks Israel.

If you want to cut a check to these people, be my guest, but you should at least know what your money is going to support.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[Spamlent Green]

Actually, I think that was John Ashcroft.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[shario]

Extremely leftist? Maybe by American standards :-)

The rest of the world, who think Republicans and Democrats are quite extremely right-wing, would classify them quite moderate left-wing.

And yes, policies of President Bush Jr. (and Sr.) are most certainly one very important reason for last fall's WTC incident.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[Anonymous Coward]

and glorifies terrorism, like Yassir Arrifat ...It is extremely anti-semetic...

Funny, I thought that Arrafat was
a semite.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[perlyking]

Indymedia is an independent site that anyone can submit articles to (hmm.. sounds familiar?) and it has local editions for all over the world. It is not anti semitic - check out the israel edition and see jewish people posting articles at both ends of the spectrum.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[Anonymous Coward]

Gee, i guess I would lay the blaim at the feet of the trrorists who actually flew the plains into the WTC, but I guess I don't have the bennefits of your keen insight now do I! Incidentally if you want to blame presidents, the Clinton administration is the only one you can make the case for, they had a chance to take out binLaden and BLEW IT. Which is not suprising, because leftists have never been right, ever. (no pun intended)

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[broken_bones]

I'm not going to go as far as some posters by suggesting the parent is a troll (although the anonymous coward authorship might make one wonder). I will say that the original post is very alarmist. Phrases like "destruction of America", "glorifies terrorism" and "being Nazist" do not make for a good constructive diaglog about the merits (or lack thereof) for aparticular organization. Before giving money to any charity/non-profit the giver should carefully review what the organization stands stands for. If you don't, well, a fool and his money are soon parted.

Finaly I'd just like to say, if you're going to knock an organization please offer some documentation* to back up your claims. It will save the rest of us allot of time.

* Since this is Slashdot bashing of Microsoft, RIAA, MPAA, DMCA or other "acceptable targets" does not require coherant thought or documentation.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[rsklnkv]

Anti-semetic!?! Man, are you full of it. Where did you read this? The people involved in indy are some of the most proactive anti-racist folks around.
Blind patriotism. Makes me sad.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[duffbeer703]

I always find smug europeans amazing.

Europe loves to criticize the US, but is too dependent on the benefits of being Americas lackey to take any action on it's own.

It's very easy for German and French politicians to hurl insults and compare the US gov't to Hitler or some crazed Roman Emperor. It's alot harder to offer constructive alternatives or action.

Italy, Germany, the UK, Russia, Sweden, every nation in Europe allowed the bloody Yugoslavian civil war to drag on and on -- all the while blasting US policy towards rouge states like Iraq. In the end, who took action? The US.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[daoine]

A flaming AC comment is not telling of the cause nor the political involvement of Indymedia. This issue, however, is politically charged, and one ought to know the implications before donating time or money. If you agree, go for it, if you don't -- then dont. Just make an educated decision.

From the article:

"Project to ship a container of 230 refurbished computers to Ecuador to extend the technical capacity of civil society and the anti-globalization movement leading up to the anti-FTAA protests in early November. If successful this will be the first stage in an ongoing project to send large numbers of computers to social movements in the global south through indymedia."

Now, for those of you that want to make up your own minds, here's the FTAA Official website and here's Global Exchange's take on the situation. A Google search for FTAA turns up many links, but pro and con, and should provide enough information for the interested.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[perljon]

Hey, if it falls after a 3000 year run, then let it. But meanwhile, in this lifetime, on this Earth, bow, and respect your superior or feel our steel.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[Anonymous Coward]

Point by point... (even though it's a troll)

"IndyMedia is an extreme leftist news organization"

True, by US standards it's way out on the left, but note that "left" != "Democrat" in this context.

"IndyMedia is essentially committed to the destruction of America"

Blatantly false. Unless you equate wanting more democracy, freedom of speech, governmental and corporate responsibility and accountability as being the same as "wanting to destroy America" - and if that is what you think, the problem is evidently yours.

"IndyMedia blams all of the world's problems on America"

Nope. Does want to hold the US govenrment and corporations accountable for their (many) destructive actions. Also wants to do the same with other nationalities, but the US tends to be a bad (possibly the worst) offender.

"IndyMedia glorifies terrorism, like Yasser Arafat and Osama bin Laden"

Blatantly false. IndyMedia's viewpoint is generally strongly anti-violence... but that includes the violence of the US and its allies, and isn't the usual "their violence is terrorism but ours is patriotism" BS. As for glorifying Yasser Arafat, I doubt it... I suspect most IndyMedia types know Arafat for what he is. And bin Laden? That's even more ridiculous. They're for free speech, self-determination, communitarian activism - so why would they support a fanatic who's trying to exploit religious hatred and create a war for his own ends? They don't. They can't stand him any more than the next person.

"It has suggested that Pres. Bush is responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks"

Hmm. Well, people on IndyMedia probably have suggested this. And it all depends on what you mean by 'responsible', doesn't it? After all, more and more reports about what Dubya knew before September are popping up, so it's at least arguable that he failed his responsibility to the American people in regard to the attacks... or do you believe that because he's The President he's simply infallible (like the Pope to Catholics)? As for suggesting that he's directly responsible, some people probably suggested that too. That's pretty way out there - mainly because he doesn't seem to have the intelligence to plot something that deep.

"IndyMedia is extremely anti-semitic"

Blatantly false; another inflammatory lie. And to compare them with Nazis is actually pretty insane, given the polar opposition of the views of the two groups. You realize that you're claiming that IndyMedia as a group advocate the extermination of the entire Jewish race for the purpose of securing racial purity? I can't even think of how to say how insanely ludicrous that is.

"IndyMedia consistently attacks Israel."

If you mean "IndyMedia consistently criticizes the govenment of Israel" then you are correct. They do. The Israeli government have done and continue to do many extremely reprehensible things, and criticism of them is warranted. Moreover, calling that criticism "anti-Semitism" is opportunistic political chicanery at its worst, and frankly exploiting the memory of the very real, beyond-words-horrific tragedy of the Holocaust to fend off criticism of your own abuses is atrocious.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[perljon]

Let me tell you what we were fighting for in WWII. The Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, and it became perfectly clear that the border's of these United States were no longer safe, and the problems of the world could eventually affect us. The men and women of the US were afraid that one day, the war would be fought on our soil, and that life as we know it would change forever. That we might just have to sacrafice millions as the russians did. That our cities might be bombed as London was. If the American people gave a rats ass about the wellbeing of the rest of the world, we would have helped sooner. We don't.

Since our creation, we have been week, and we have been afraid to interact with the rest of the world in fear that this interaction might make our homeland appear on someone's radar screen, and that we may have to defend this land from aggressors homeland. Did we fight WWII to save the Jews? Did we fight it to liberate France or free England from the threat of her neighbor? Did we wish to liberate the people of Germany, Japan, and Italy from a repressive government? No! We realized that we may be next.

Just so I am clear, the American government cares about American's first. Thats why we, the American people have put it there. It is the job of our American government to do what is right in defending our way of life.

We have been placed in a world were the agressor with the biggest stick wins. This is apparent in Afghanastan, Cuba, Iraq, most of the middle east in fact, China, North Korea, and every other home of an oppressive totaltarion government. These governments would like to rape America of its fortune and discard are scared bodies to die. I support my government in setting up an empire in order to protect my family from the evil totaltarian governments of the world.

Further more, let me explain something else to you. The group of people with the biggest production get to build the biggest army. The group of people with the biggest army get to defend there borders and do what is neccesary to prevent aggression on its people. Therefore, economy, as shown in WWII, is equal to military might. Production is directly related to infrastructure, energy, and food. The power in the world that has the greatest infrastructure with sufficient food and energy gets to dictate whatever it wants. It was has allowed America to dominate in the last 50 years. The American capitalist system pays those who produce. Therefore, for 200 years, men have worked very hard to produce. We have spent lifetimes building businesses to take home money to our families so they can have nice things and live in luxury. As a side affect, because our individuals are paid per production and each generation grew beyond their parents, we have the biggest infrastructure in the world. Also, we grow way more food than we eat.

But remember, three things are needed in order to protect our borders. We need energy. Without it, our production (war making ability) goes down, and we are aggressed on by our neighbor. Therefore, war for oil makes since. Without war for oil, we fight wars for our territory. I'd rather fight wars for oil.

In conclusion, if you're not american, watch out because we will do whatever it takes to survive and defend our borders against you. If you your lifestyle to be directly related to your production, come aboard. It's a sturdy ship.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[perljon]

Production is not how many widgets get produced per hour. Production is measured in dollars. Gross National Product is a dollar amount.

Therefore, how much you are willing to pay someone for their work is equal to their production, always, by definition.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[Capsaicin]

I believe that liberty, justice, and God last forever.

In case you hadn't noticed, the first two, at least, are on the endangered species list in 'America' at the moment. As for the third, well God alone knows.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[perljon]

Wrong. Economy is war power. Production is economy. Social structure directly effects production. Look at Europe and it's shortened work weeks and frequent holidays. Socialist systems are huge and inneficient. Taxes are high. Governments are big and getting bigger.Basically, it is inefficiant at the individual level and it's economy will never match ours. Besides the fact that at the first real challenge, the European Union will fall apart. Too many distinct cultures which leads to too many distinct interests that will eventually conflict. Europe is not a threat, and won't be in the near (300-400 years). Russia lost most of its infrastructure and still has too many socialist tendecies to build a competitive economy.

China has tons and tons of people, but can bearly feed itself. Until it solves that problem, it will never be a threat no longer how big its military is. (THey are aware of this... if you are a Chinese college student and studying agriculture, you can pretty much get a free ride to an American agriculture college. (Ohio State University for example). Also, if you are an American college student majoring in some kind of food science, it is pretty easy to get paid trips to China. Also, technologically and infrastructurally, we are way ahead of China. Finally, the reason China has it's food problems is that it's social system is so terribly inefficient. The only reason it could be a factor is the sheere numbers of people lead to huge amounts of production even if the production per person is a lot smaller. Talking with my friends from China, almost every job in China is like taking an American Government job (in America, THE example of inefficiency).

If the Chinese people found democracy and capitalism their productivity would sky rocket. However, the same thing that happened to russia would probably happen to China if it changes to a Democracy. This means they won't be a real threat without capitlism. Capitalism will send them back 100-200 years before it brings them forward (They likely would errupt in civil war and the whole society would be re-shuffled turning their attention inward.)

The Middle east has very little of its own production capability. They import a lot of food and have very little non-oil infrastructure. They aren't a real threat.

Without the Russian Nuclear threat, the United States and Europe will find themselves more at each other's throat. They no longer have a single dominant threat. NATO and the United Nations will soon dissolve away over the next 20 years as the nations of the world withdrawl from these organizations as the threats that existed when they were formed no longer exists.

The United States is dominant and they will be for the next 300-400 years and certainly throughout our lifetimes. I'm not too concerned with the United States pissing off other countries around the world. By the time things are changed, the people will have forgotten. We fought two wars with England 200 years ago, and now they are our strongest ally. It only takes one Nazi Germany to unite the world, no matter what past you have.

Don't like the fact that American interest will be determining your future, I'd recommend moving here. At least you'll be one of the leaders instead of the lead.

Re:Do NOT get involved with this

[HiThere]

Nah... It's how easy it is to replace them. Market economy for the employees, socialism for the corporations. The worst of both worlds.

Well, not the worst... not yet, anyway. Not for most of us reading here.

My first thought

[GoldenBear]

I really wonder if a few pounds of cardboard will really make much of a difference?

mean slasheditors

[Scrameustache]

For shame! Slashdotting these poor good samaritains!

Couldn't you post links to the RIAA or something?

All about image

[PhysicsGenius]

As much as I enjoy helping people, this isn't really very good news for Linux from a marketing perspective. "Media activists" are generally hairy-armpitted girls and non-shower-taking guys. And "free computer clinic" brings to mind a dank, messy and smelly closet with an aging clunker of a PC inside. Do we really want computer students in Ecuador (and the US, for that matter) thinking of Linux as the bottom of the barrel that will be replaced with "standard Windows" when they have the money?

Re:All about image

[Mithrander]

It could be good news if it helps these "Media Activists" to rise above the pitiful stereotype you've labeled them with, wouldn't it? I'm sorry, but isn't your logic kind of like saying "The Catholic Church shouldn't have let Mother Theresa hang out with all those poor, sick people...it gives Catholics a bad image"?? Maybe we should give poor people in third-world countries the chance to rise above their current conditions, eh?

Re:All about image

[sulli]

Decent journalism would help the "Media Activists" improve their image. But this is not forthcoming.

Re:All about image

[buswolley]

Can we really expect that it matters what they look like when we all know that mainstream(american) media won't ever cover them any way?

Besides, can computer students in Equador seriously afford anything other than Linux? Certainly not M$.. now can they? :)

Linux help the the poor, the third world, and America.

Re:All about image

[GypC]

All women have hairy armpits except those Americans that shave them... oh, and whores in other parts of the world.

What's the matter with you? Are you some kind of pedophile that can't cope with a post-pubescent woman's natural body?

Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[UNIBLAB_PowerPC]

Here's an idea: these folks should talk to their local Air National Guard unit. I've worked with medical missionaries in the past who went to Ecuador for a month (imaging blogging over a 9.6 modem connection over AOL -- only provider we could hook up with -- it wasn't pretty, but that was mainly user error and I digress). These physicians managed to purchase/gather enough supplies and talked the Alabama Air National Guard into shipping everything down in a week or two in advance. Of course, I don't know how to pull those kind of stings, but I know it has been done in the past for medical missions so I guess this effort might differ in the eyes of non-techies, who don't believe that information technology is as essential as proper medical care. I'd chance a guess that pilots are like us in a way they'll look for any excuse to do what they do best. ;-) Good luck, though!

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[N3WBI3]

The problem is these leftest freaks think the ANG and other military personel are all baby killers. These people are left of left of left. They are as extreme as the militia groups everyone wants to go after..

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[tmark]

I hardly think the US Military is going to want to get involved in shipping computers to people who fancy themselves revolutionaries and who want to get the computers over there so that they can better coordinate their riots and protests. Medical missionaries these people are not.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[SubtleNuance]

No, milita groups are gun wielding crazies. These Social-Justice Activists are interested in increasing peace and displacing in-justice. The latter may threaten middle-class-consumer-america, but they are certainly not Anti-Social.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[N3WBI3]

Oh so it was the peace loving lefties ripping up seattle when the world bank was there?

Militia groups are people who believe in the second and tenth amendments, those amendments that the 'Social-Justice Activist' would love to get rid of.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[elefantstn]

No, the latter would like to think they "may threaten middle-class-consumer-america," but that's because they're deluded. The only people they're going to actually hurt are the Third World poor their laughably misguided policies are so desperately trying (and failing miserably) to help.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[sulli]

Except when they smash Starbucks windows. Oh, but that's Sticking It To The Man (tm) and so okay, right?

(On-topic: I actually think this is a good idea. A broken clock is right twice a day!)

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[SubtleNuance]

Im sorry, Im Canadain... we have no "second and tenth amendments" nor do people from ecuador... I guess your point is moot.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[SubtleNuance]

Could your hubris be any more severe?

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[elefantstn]

Maybe your delusions of grandeur could teach them how.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[ncc74656]

Im sorry, Im Canadain... we have no "second and tenth amendments" nor do people from ecuador

Neither does England...and now that only outlaws are armed as a result of their victim-disarmament laws, their violent-crime rates are among the worst in the industrialized world. You're far more likely to be mugged or killed in London than in New York City.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[N3WBI3]

If youre canadian its only a matter of time till our constitution applies to you ;)

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[MAXOMENOS]

I've been a social justice activist for decades and I'm an NRA member. Is your brush too wide?

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[gimpboy]

Oh so it was the peace loving lefties ripping up seattle when the world bank was there?

there were 10's of thousands of activists in seattle-enough to completely destroy a good chunk of the city. given the number of people, there was very little distruction in seattle. the media did focus on the few broken windows, but that was an outlier in the statistical distribution of what happened. to compare, there has been alot more damage by concert goers, basketball fans, soccer fans, etc. more in terms of total distruction at any given event, or on a per person basis.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[gorilla]

If you look at the actual figures, you get a different picture. In 1997, the US murder rate was 18,209. In the same year, in England and Wales, there were 739 murders. Population of England and Wales, about 52 million. Population of US, about 270 million.. Therefore E&W murder rate of 1.4 per 100,000 is much smaller than the rate of 6.8 per 100,000 for the USA.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[ncc74656]

If you look at the actual figures, you get a different picture. In 1997...

You might want to look at more recent statistics. Those numbers are from before they passed their victim-disarmament laws. In the years since, the violent-crime rate has skyrocketed out of control. The British government has succeeded at boiling the frog.

Re:Shipping? We Don't Need No Stinking Shipping!

[gorilla]

I chose 1997 cause that's the most recent american figures I could find. If you'd read the link to the british figures, In the 2001/2002 financial year, which is obviously the most recent possible, there were 886 murders, which up from the 748 isn't what I'd call 'skyrocketed out of control'.

Hmmm.

[YanceyAI]

Wearing combat boots and a T-shirt emblazoned with a large skull and crossbones, Nix looks more like a biker than your stereotypical computer geek.

That sounds like the stereotypical computer geek to me. I think he's getting his geek-types mixed up. Or maybe non of the geeks I know are stereotypical?

Humanitarians

[Reality Master 101]

Somehow this reminds me of an old Jay Leno bit about humanitarian efforts to give Christmas toys to starving kids in the third-world:

Child: "Kalimba eat potato?"

Humanitarian: "No, Kalimba *play with* potato! See, you can put eyes, ears and mouth on the potato!"

Child: "Kalimba eat potato?"

Humanitarian: "No, no..."

That's about all I remember. It was hilarious, but I can't find the whole routine on the web.

Re:Humanitarians

[Irvu]

Unlike the christmas toys though, they are actually working on acheiving something. According to the article the goal is to build an infrastucture allowing the poor to communicate and thus organize for a better life.

[BTW:: I knew that you were kidding but I wanted to make the point.]

Re:Humanitarians

[Zooks!]

The other day, NPR was talking to some teachers in Afghanistan and they basically said everybody was sending them computers, textbooks, etc. The only problem was they didn't even have walls for their school, or chairs, or desks, much less anywhere to plug in a computer. The kids basically had to an agreed upon spot outside and sit on the ground.

Don't get me as jaded, though. I think donating computers to these folks is great. However, before we send them computers, we should first help them get to the point where the computers will do them some good.

If you want your donation of a computer to do some good in the 3rd world, send a few desks, chairs, and maybe a generator along with the computer.

Of course, while Central/South America is not well off, particularly in certain areas, a donation of computers might actually be OK because they might have some or all of the requisite items (like 4 walls). Sending a generator might help, though.

Re:Humanitarians

[buswolley]

Providing food is only a temporary ix on starving populations. They must get the knowledge, the skills, and the economic freedom before they can conquer food shortages, etc..

Such programs as this can help the population get a motivated individual the information to build water pumps, efficient electriciy generators etc..

oh yeah and how to build your own (useless) subwoofer. Good one slashdot. Toys, though. thats pretty useless.

Re:Humanitarians

[SethJohnson]

Ecuador does not need food. It is the largest banana exporter in the world. It is a hugely agricultural nation which is not suffering from droughts, etc. Ecuador does need infrastructure. These computers are part of that needed infrastructure. They need to leap beyond agrarian subsistence farming to get the country out of its economic hole.

What can accelerate this change? Education for sure. Books, schools, etc. How about a computer and internet connectivity? We've got a lot laying around here gathering dust. Probably more so than textbooks written in spanish.

I've visited Ecuador several times. Once I was helping some women at a library set up a VCR and TV that was recently donated by some wealthy Ecuadorians (I was a friend of the donors). The women working in the library were nicely dressed and educated pretty well from what I could tell with my limited spanish. They were the Ecuador equivalent to minimum-wage office workers in America.

When it came time to put the batteries in the remote control, I realized the value I was bringing to the VCR-TV-setup project. These women had never held a remote control. They needed some batteries (2 X AA), which they also had no experience with. I gave them a dead AA from my walkman so they could take it to the local shop and make sure they were buying the right size (with money provided by the donors). When they returned with the batteries, I had to explain the pictures inside the battery compartment so they'd understand how to install the batteries in the future.

I guess I am relating this anecdote so people can better understand the technological chasm that seperates people around the world. Sure, booklearning is a key part of a third-world country's development. At the same time, these free computers are going to help as well.

Seth

Re:Humanitarians

[SubtleNuance]

However, before we send them computers, we should first...ask them what they need. This is generally regarded as one of the West's major errors w/ "Aid" - you should help, not try implement a model of yourself somewhere you believe needs help.

Re:Humanitarians

[Zooks!]

Of course we should ask them.

However, it is also important to keep in mind that people don't always know what to ask for. If a man says he's hungry and asks for a fish, sure, give him a fish. However, you might also point out that you can teach him how to get his own supply of fish. If he says, "Ok", then you show him how to fish.

I think what you're getting at is that aid is more than just throwing free goods/services at people. There has to be a dialog about what people need/want and working together to build a better future.

Sorry if that sounds a little syrupy, but it's true.

Re:Humanitarians

[nite_warrior]

Education for sure. Books, schools, etc. How about a computer and internet connectivity? That's right, I'm from Ecuador, most of the people here don't have much knowledge about a lot of technology. But I don't quite could trust in a project like this one. It sounds really nice when you read about it but don't live the reality of what happens here. I just wonder what will the people from Indymedia consider "The rigth people" to who they are going to give the control of the project. My first guess is that will be to some other radicalists from here, and that's when you start to worry about the project. Considering that one of the biggest problems that Ecuador has is that Education has been managed by radicalist who are not thinking about the good of people but just their good, and that happens also with most of the social organizations down here. So I don't really know if those good resources will really get to the rigth people to make the usufull to the development.

Re:Humanitarians

[antirename]

Zimbabwe is an excellent example of what you're talking about. They could grow plenty of food until their current "big man" decided to run all of the farmers out of the country and "redistribute" the farms to his relatives. Somehow I don't think a shipment of computers to Zimbabwe would help, but Ecuador might be another story. Many "third world" countries aren't as backward as Americans think. They already know how to grow food; a computer literate population wouldn't hurt anything. Sounds like a reasonable idea to me.

Re:Humanitarians

[akb]

Indymedia Ecuador, CONFEUNASSC,and Action Ecologica are the main groups that are being worked with. What are you're comments on them?

Re:Humanitarians

[akb]

As the article says, this is what the Ecuadorians asked for.

Re:Humanitarians

[ChronoZ]

Ecuador does not need food. It is the largest banana exporter [transnationale.org] in the world.

Yes, Ecuador is the largest EXPORTER of bananas. Then again, most about anything produced is EXPORTED, and thus most people never even benefit from this (except the 2-3 companies that have control over the export business).

Indeed, Ecuador is extremely fertile, but most of that bounty never stays in the country. (ps: I am Ecuadorian and I lived there for seven years)

Re:Humanitarians

[SethJohnson]

Glad to hear from several people with first-hand knowledge of Ecuador.

Would you say people in Ecuador need food shipments?

That's the misconception I was trying to dispell with the reference to the banana export. Of course the banana industry isn't providing trickle-down economic support to all the people of Ecuador. But it's hardly a country we need to send food to.

Seth

Re:Humanitarians

[nite_warrior]

I wonder how could Accion Ecologica be involved in a technology project. They are some ecological radicalist who are against anything that have to do with progress, they even pretend to go back and live in the jungle, with no technology, even worst than amish... I don't think that anything goood could come from this project now... the CONFEUNASSC is another organization agains anything that will help the country is also a movement seeking the country to be back on progress.

Lucky stiffs

[tmark]

They're getting free computers and wireless networks, while I'm still studying my calendar and wondering when I'll be able to afford to pay the still-exorbitant-for-me prices for a few wireless NICs and switches !

Re:Why Equador?

[N3WBI3]

It means they think the world is flat...

Re:yeah.

[thinkpol]

I find it ironic that many people in the this community find it necessary to complain about the actions of other groups when they don't necessarily agree with the intentions of that group. I mean, honestly, why don't you start a project that sends computers to schools in the US that need more "power."

Besides, Indymedia has been around for years supporting independent media. You know, an alternative to the mainstream. Isn't that the purpose of linux in the first place? Since most of the major newspapers in the US are headed by the same company, i think it only makes sense to take part in a project that would help to provide an alternative to the mainstream.

I misread the title

[Jon Evans]

I read it as "Us Greeks Recycle GNU/Linux Boxes for Ecuador", and I thought it was something to do with sending them away because they had games installed on them.

Re:yeah.

[buswolley]

everything is bad. Bad Bad.. But some points: Globalization sucks.. because it is being globalized by the rich on top of the poor. This is fact.Even the poor in America can go to a library. Can someone in S. America? They need information to grow economicly. .. And.. you know what? It is not wrong to cry when you see wrong in the world. But then you have to pick yourself up and do something about it.

Re:yeah.

[shario]

This must be a troll, or some very very Wilde humor.

Hey, I've got a better idea

[unicron]

How about we sell our boxes on ebay, and then send the money to make sure some kids down there eat tonight? I'm aware that these boxes aren't meant to be some poor child charity but this is easily the stupidest shit I've ever heard regarding acts of kindness.

And another thing, semi off-topic, regarding charity. Why is it that people ooh and aww and feel their heart sink when Sally Struthers shows them pictures of starving orphans in some god-forsaken place, but then the next day can be found in a Dillards parking lot mortified that a homeless kid almost touched their Lexus?

Re:Hey, I've got a better idea

[bstadil]

Sending money goes straight into corruption and local crime families.

Sending food ruins local economy as it works as would dumping of say memories into this country. The local companies (farmers in this case) can not survive the drop in prices resulting from "Food aids" and will stop producing. Then what?

No sending computers is actually a good idea,

Re:Hey, I've got a better idea

[Anonymous Coward]

> Why is it that people ooh and aww and feel their heart sink when Sally Struthers shows them pictures of starving orphans in some god-forsaken place, but then the next day can be found in a Dillards parking lot mortified that a homeless kid almost touched their Lexus?

Because you just don't fuck with another man's automobile!

Re:Hey, I've got a better idea

[MissMyNewton]

but then the next day can be found in a Dillards parking lot mortified that a homeless kid almost touched their Lexus

God help me, but all I can think of is Cartman shouting "you po' Kenny! PO!!!"

Re:Hey, I've got a better idea

[RealAlaskan]

How about we sell our boxes on ebay, and then send the money to make sure some kids down there eat tonight?

Go for it! Charity, like Linux development, works when we each do what we want. If you feel called upon to sell your box and use that money to buy food for the hungry, that's great.

The folks in the story have identified a need (for data infrastructure) that they can fill, and they are filling that need. I can only assume that they have looked a bit, and decided that this need is the most pressing need that *they* *can* fill.

Re:Hey, I've got a better idea

[andcal]

Yes, I agree, when you generalize people and lump them into large groups like that, the behaviors of that group as a whole does not make much sense. Much as generalizing in that way doesn't really make much sense, either (so why do it?).

Re:yeah.

[teqo]

Yeah, great idea, its up to you to start something similar in your local area, to support the kids in YOUR country now.

And BTW, this is not america, but I have seen schools which got computer stuff donated being *very* picky about what they want, pentium 100 with 1 gig drives would be at the low end of their expectations, if they would take it at all... It does not run Windows XP and/or multimedia stuff properly, you know...

Re:yeah.

[N3WBI3]

Yes of course because as a republican I want kids to get a crap education, starve in schools, and be hooked on drugs. You people are so pathetic, you have to demonize somebody becuase they haver different political beliefs than you?

My parents were poor republicans (registerd democrat in NY), yes there are many of them. They were republicans becasue they did not believe in an overly strong federal governemnt. I am a middle class Conservative because the republicans have begun to want too much power for the federal government. But nothing like the Democrats who want to give land to the UN, take away all states rights, take away any speech they define as 'hate', and try to censure thought through 'hate crime' laws.

If it makes you feel better to call republicans cocks instead of engaging people on the issues you deserve the biased opinion indymedia will give you..

Amazing

[Anonymous Coward]

There are already a couple of posts here with people griping about how "all this effort" is mis-directed and should be spent on "domestic" kids.

Its never ceases to amaze me how quick so many people are to critique an act of charity.

Somehow kids are more deserving because they happen to be closer geographically/politically/culturally?

Some guys at some location which happens to be in our country have for some reason chosen to help some kids at some other location which is not within out political boundaries. Should they be slighted because they haven't first helped everyone in their neighborhood/city/state/country?

If you think there's someone out there who needs help who isn't getting any try this... help them. That's what these folks here did.

Re:Amazing

[Corvaith]

Their problem, I think, is a frequent but misguided idea that one's countrymen are better than those who happen to live elsewhere.

While there are those who slip through the cracks, America's kids aren't in that bad a shape. Even if they don't eat much at home, every public school I ever went to had free lunch and often breakfast if you were below a certain income level. If every kid didn't have a computer of his own, they did at least have a chance to use them on a semi-regular basis. American children are considered entitled to an education, including college.

Many other places, these things are not true.

Now, this project? Not aimed at helping starving six-year-olds in Bolivia. While I happen to think their aims are laudable--unlike those posters who still seem to be stuck in the cold war--the fact does remain that these computers are being sent elsewhere for a reason. Not because a small area is in need, but because those /countries/ are at a disadvantage, economically.

If anyone wants to say that America is a disadvantaged nation, as far as the world goes... they deserve to get beat over the head with a clue-by-four.

Re:Amazing

[liquidsin]

I'm all for any kind of charitable act, but there is a point here. We really *should* be taking care of our own first. I don't want to criticize anyone who's spending their own time and money to help someone less fortunate, but take a look around your home. It's the same way I feel about governments sending millions in "aid" money to foreign country when there are people literally starving in our streets. I'm sure there are schools in the U.S. who could use this donation just as much as people in another country. But kudos for doing it in the first place.

Re:Amazing

[Buck2]

Somehow kids are more deserving because they happen to be closer geographically/politically/culturally?

Suppose someone notices that their neighbor is painting their fence and also just happens to already have plans to go the local hardware/home improvement store. Suppose, also that this person buys a can of paint for the neighbor because they want to be helpful. As a last supposition, imagine that the neighbor who is currently painting his fence doesn't exactly need this can of paint because it's not of the same quality paint that he is currently using.

This is the kind of situation that the people who are critiquing this act of kindness are in. They, for the most part, are not saying that giving computers to people who need it is a "bad thing". Just that perhaps there are more efficient ways to expend your altruistic energy.

Take, for example, the fact that the monies that I give to the government of the United States are given under the belief that they will be used to better the lives of another person within the United States (disregarding the vast amount of our tax money which is basically given away to other countries as aid). Wouldn't it seem reasonable that if I heard of a project wherein people who also lived in the United States chose to expend their energies helping people who do not also contribute to this same sort of fund that I would then have a valid critique?

Basically, the argument is, that if you help others out domestically they will contribute back to the pot more quickly than those helped outside the nation. This is important in the sense of preserving your own rights.

Re:Amazing

[Reality Master 101]

when there are people literally starving in our streets.

Although I agree with your overall point to some extent, I don't think exaggeration like this is needed. There is NOBODY "literally" starving in our streets. The US has the richest poor people in the world. In fact, it's actually amazing how fat the people are in poor neighborhoods (at least in my neck of the woods).

This is not to say that there aren't children who go hungry on occasion when their parents spend food money on crack, or otherwise need our help, by the way.

Re:Amazing

[Arcaeris]

The problem most people saw - and incorrectly associated - is a big problem in the US. When the US gives foreign aid, where does that money come from? Every American paying taxes.

When *anyone* gives money to a charity, where does some of that money come from? Every American who pays taxes. Remember, charities in the US are tax-free, and donating the money to charity is a tax write-off. So that then otherwise taxable income is diverted elsewhere.

These guys are doing a good thing. Donating their own time and computers and stuff to another country. It's cool. Just don't forget the tax liability, and who's paying for it just about every time.

Re:Amazing

[davey]

Speaking as someone involved in the project: trust me, these organizations do plenty to help "our own" as well. Check out www.accrc.org to see how most of our refurbished equipment is used, or better yet, come down and help!

Re:Amazing

[bluethundr]

"Their problem, I think, is a frequent but misguided idea that one's countrymen are better than those who happen to live elsewhere."

Not to be too objectivist about that statement, but of course the flipside to that argument is "are one's countrymen any less worthy of charity" because of their proximity?

I definitely to NOT think that the altruistic efforts of this organization should be quelched/criticized/redirected towards benifitting the U>S>A.They are doing something that is very important and they, of course, are free to direct their efforts where they wish.

But, seriously, there is a valid argument to be made about someone else (if I had no bills to pay and didn't work as much as I do, it would be me. I know, excuse, excuse) to do this very same thing here domestically.

All of us here live very wired lives. Could you imagine working in a workplace that did NOT have one computer per user? That is the reality of the American school system, only the work being done there is much more important than the work being done in any office building. Yet it is being done with a shocking paucity of resources. This is right here in the US.

You don't need to be born in a foreign land to suffer from a learning disability. And is the domestic child who suffers from such a disablility any less worthy of all the advantages we could provide him or her? With a wired school system and some fierce coding we could build a wired infrasctructure that would provide an adaptive learning environment that would serve the needs of every child (learning disabled or not). Everyone responds to different cues when learning and think of the power of a completely computerized educational system that would adapt to the strengths and weaknesses of the individual user! It could completely revolutionize the way kids are taught. But are we anywhere near such a noble and valid goal? Hardly. In fact, it is easy to say that the way teachers teach mathematics today is the nearly (with minor changes in teaching philosophies) the same as it was taught in the Victorian era! The mindset in the classroom is (in some ways) as Victorian as the pencil sharpener in every schoolroom!

As Nicholas Nergoponte points out, adaptive learning techologies could elevate the lives of every child who has access to these new methods.

Frankly, it amazes me how many of the posts on this board seem to indicate a tacit disapproval for benefitting the children of America with this approach. I can't imagine any enlightened person criticizing strenthening its own society by educating its young.

It need not even be at the expense of any other nation. There are enough old intel boxes being tossed on a daily basis to put a computer in front of nearly every student in the US. With a coordinated effort of salvaging old workstations and writing educational software for these older boxes we could change the way kids are taught.

One flaw in your comment...

[SPYvSPY]

...Jay Leno has never, ever been funny.

Re:One flaw in your comment...

[the way, what're you]

...Jay Leno has never, ever been funny.

Cringe all you want, he'll make more. (jokes, that is)

must have uninterruptible power supplies

[bpmcdermott]

As someone who has traveled throughout almost all of Ecuador, I can most emphatically say that in 85% of the country, these pcs are mostly useless without uninterruptible power supplies. Power regularly goes out for minutes and even hours at a time. Besides that, the voltage is anything but regular. Power spikes and dips are constant. Every PC at the mission in Macas had a ups on it. While it is great that this program exists, I hope that they send all the necessary components to make these machines useful.

Re:must have uninterruptible power supplies

[gampid]

Yeah we have tried to include UPS's but the problem is that by the time they get donated they are often bad. We don't want to send down a UPS which will break and then we leave people with a toxic waste problem they can't deal with cleanly. Unfortunately we were able only to send a few UPS's in the container.

Re:must have uninterruptible power supplies

[GMontag]

I am accepting your premise that the UPS would be dead before these folks get the machines, but it is not my experience. You are obviously more versed on this aspect of the discussion at hand than I am.

So, it sounds like there is no point in sending computers setup like this in the first place. That strengthens the arguement of folks that support sending used computers to impoverished people that have an infrastructure that can actually support computer use, like any-city USA or western europe, etc.

Is there some objection if laptops are sent but may be disposed of in a way thay you do not approve of when their batteries die?

ONE solution, posed by someone else on this thread, is to load an OS with a journaling file system on each machine. Short of that, this seems to be just a publicity stunt, just like mainstream media and just like the "globalists" these guys claim to resist.

Re:must have uninterruptible power supplies

[ichimunki]

Good thing they're using GNU/Linux then. Ext3 with journaling turned on will help a lot under those circumstances. ;)

Re:must have uninterruptible power supplies

[Micah]

Hmm I was in Ecuador for a month earlier this year (mostly working at a school in Quito but also traveling around in the Andes region to Riobamba) and I don't think I ever saw a power outage! I don't think most of the PCs at the school had UPSes and we never had trouble.

I *have* seen that in other countries -- Honduras has HORRIBLE power, even the big cities. But I haven't been there since 1994, so maybe things have improved.

Re:must have uninterruptible power supplies

[TheSync]

Around San Salvador, the capital of El Salvador, power is pretty good now. Not much worse than where I live in the US. I have a cousin there with DSL...

Please moderate parent as Troll

[ites]

News for you, sir: a majority of people outside the US
blame the world's problems on the US. And sometimes they are right.
Attacking Israel is not the same as being anti-semetic.
Indeed, the behaviour of most parties in the Middle East should be stoutly attacked. Rogues the lot of them.
IndyMedia represent a moderately left-wing viewpoint, one that the world would be poorer without.
And I speak as someone who disagrees with their views.

Re:yeah.

[throbbingbrain.com]

I tried to donate a truck load of 486's and 15" monitors to my old high school in '99. They didn't want them! The 486's were too slow and they only want 17" and larger monitors!

When I was there in 1993, they had ONE room with a dozen Apple IIgs's for the only CSC course, Pascal.

There's the people, and there's the country

[cheezycrust]

Being anti-semitic means you can't live with Jews. This is a difference with hating 'Israel', or more correct, the Isrealian government.

I strongly disagree with the Israelian government, but I have no problem with Jews - you see? I can hate Bush, but have no problems with Americans.

Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Fnkmaster]

[zipping on flame-proof suit]

Indymedia is not the kind of organization I would want to associate myself with, or support even indirectly. Just go to their front page and read about the kind of annoying, wrongheaded activism they seem to support. They are not so much a news organization as a clearing house for far left activist information. These are people that talk about "global justice" when they really mean justice for their particular downtrodden group of the day. On their front page and links off of it, I find evidence of seriously anti-capitalist, anti-Semitic and anti-American sentiment.

While this does sound like a noble project, there are other organizations (as was pointed out by another poster) with similar projects that you might support if you find Indymedia's politics so far left that they're about to fall off the table.

It is certainly also true that there are people located domestically in the US we should consider helping get access to computers and technology training, though I don't think that should preclude helping those in South America by any means, unlike some of the other posters in this thread.

Just a thought.

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Photon Ghoul]

I hate to break it to you buddy, but perhaps you should read the article before starting your trolling. Free Geek is helping with this project. It's even on their news page .

Have a good day and better luck next time.

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Malcontent]

"anti-Semitic sentiment"

Be careful. If you paint everybody who critizes israel as anti semitic you are buying into the "zionism is racism argument". In other words if critizing israel (zionism) is the exact same thing as critizising the jewish people then there is no difference between zionism and racism.

Besides both palestenians and israelis are semitic people so you cant play the race card in this case anyway.

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Fnkmaster]

I didn't say that, now you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that everybody has to be a card-carrying member of the Ariel Sharon fan club. Disagreeing with the policies of the current Israeli government is one thing. These guys are of a different ilk. They seem to support ostracizing Ehud Barak, the most pro-peace Israeli PM ever (found a piece on this linked off their main page). They seem to conveniently avoid discussing the fact that Palestinians commit murderous terrorist acts against the Israeli state and people, killing people without ANY regard to whether they are combatants or civilians.

That's not reporting. That's Palestinian propaganda. Most of the far left wing seems to buy into this crap. I consider this antisemitic (which according to Webster's and Merriam Webster's has come to mean discriminatory against or hating of Jews, not all Semitic peoples, despite the word's structure and appearance).

It is fundamentally antisemitic to start out with a prima facie assumption that Palestinians have a right to a homeland that legitimizes their violence, but that Jews do not have the same right to a homeland that allows for violent response. The leftists generally legitimize this by sympathetic portrayal of the "struggle of the oppressed" which they apply to one side and "vicious domination" which they apply to the other. These portrayals are fictions, and deny the depth or complexity of the topic. Furthermore, they assert in blanket fashion that the Palestinians are victims of oppression, when they have historically been the instigators of violence in the holy land early in the 20th century (don't bother attacking me on this, go do some research on the history of the Palestinian protectorate during the first half of the century first, then we can discuss details if you want).

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Platinum Dragon]

Yeah, God, mom, and apple pie forbid anyone criticize the actions of the U.S. government. That's just being a traitor to the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, that First Amendment crap be damned.

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Platinum Dragon]

On their front page and links off of it, I find evidence of seriously anti-capitalist, anti-Semitic and anti-American sentiment.

Anti-capitalist... what's wrong with having a strong political opinion?

Anti-Semitic? Yeah, the open wires get abuse from real racists and Jew-haters, but there's also a lot of criticism strictly related Israeli government policy (sometimes too much, spammed across newswires, as if it's the only thing going on around the world), which only a die-hard Israel supporter would consider anti-Semitic. Heck, Israel has its own IMC, run by Israelis...

Anti-American? God forbid someone question U.S. government policy.

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[sparkles dan]

They are not so much a news organization as a clearing house for far left activist information.

Find me one news group that doesn't show some form of political slant in its articles.

Oh, sorry, did you not realise that the majority of "U.S.A. is great" articles you read weren't The Truth?

Of course they are going to be left wing, anti-capitalist and anti-american. It goes against everything the U.S.A and capitalism in general stands for to give anything away to anyone unless it benefits them.

I am some how failing to see how a left wing attitude can be seen as a bad thing? Or have you bought the old lies that for some reason equality is a bad thing?

oh wait... doesn't that almost sound racist?

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Forrestina]

not only that, i used to go to freegeek, many of us were there to "stick it to the man", one person i know at a meeting where we all shared why we were here to help out, stood up and said "hi, i'm eric, and i'm an anarchist".

so if you think that freegeek is any less left, you need to wake up, and maybe think about, what exactly is wrong with left?

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Fnkmaster]

You are correct, the poster from whom I gleaned that information was clearly wrong. And stop being a dickhead while you're at it, I'm not trolling, I'm just pointing out the part that was left out from the slashdot editors posting about who Indymedia are.

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Fnkmaster]

I didn't read the article, but I did read some other Indymedia articles. It's not a knee jerk reaction, since my reaction wasn't to the particulars of the article at all (which I stated was a generally good thing, that I have no problems with) - thus I feel no need to apologize. Rather, I was posting my reaction to the other content on Indymedia, which I most certainly DID read. The point about FreeGeek was made by somebody else, and I credited that in my post, so if that poster made a mistake, you can't blame me for it, I was just pointing out what they said. The point still stands that the project sounds nice, but the organization sponsoring it clearly supports a set of viewpoints that I find abhorrent and ill-conceived, all labels aside. See my other responses if you want to read more of my thoughts on why I feel this way, I won't bother repeating it again.

Re:Concur with the ACs down the thread...

[Malcontent]

Oh where to start.

"It is fundamentally antisemitic to start out with a prima facie assumption that Palestinians have a right to a homeland that legitimizes their violence, but that Jews do not have the same right to a homeland that allows for violent response."

No it's not. Those are political issues and not racial ones. Choosing one side of a political debate is not racism and you should not invoke the race card when people disagree with you.

"Furthermore, they assert in blanket fashion that the Palestinians are victims of oppression"

I don't think this is under dispute is it?

The palestenians have no state.
They are occupied by the israeli army.
They are routinely put under curfew by the israeli army.
they don't have the rights to move around freely.
They are routinely killed by the israeli army.
They are routinely arrested without charges and access to lawyers.
They are routinely tortured.
They are suffering from starvation and malnutrition.
They are being denied water by the israeli govt.
They are being deported and otherwise expelled.

Sorry but all of these are undisputed facts. You say that historically they have been violent people and perhaps that justifes putting 800,000 people under curfew for a couple of months to you but not for me. To the uncritical supporters of israel every action they do is somehow justified in the past or in the bible or something. If any other country did what they are doing I bet you would be against it.

For me there is no justification for torture, no justification for ethnic cleansing, no justification for apartheid, no justification for starving women and children, no justification for destroying other peoples property because a relative committed murder, no justification for forced expulsion, no justfication for taking peoples land and setting up settlements on it.

Israel can't have it both ways. Either it won the war, took the land fair and square and is occuying it legaly or it's in a state of war with palestenians.

If it won the war it needs to do what conqering countries do. Make those people citizens and try to fold them into your culture.

If it's in a state of war then obey the geneva conventions and get the job over with. The palestenians are no match for the most powerful military in the world (the israeli army is the most powerful because it is actually the combined US and the israeli army). Kill them and get it over with slowly torturing them is not making you look good.

Otherwise what you have left is apartheid. It works for a while but eventually it will be lifted, history shows that.

more info

[akb]

Also check out this video interview with one of the organizers.

Spare me the drama

[MrPerfekt]

Ugh, more reason why I hate to read the comments anymore.

Why is it people relate IndyMedia to terrorism? Perhaps some of the journalists related to it have slanted views and it reflects that in their stories but how is this different than mainstream media?

Isn't the basis of IndyMedia freedom of speech? Would you rather only have mainstream media owned by 3 gigantic companies?

Now I understand this article is primarily about the charity aspect which *surprise* everybody seems to have a problem with. But the same people critisizing the charity, are the same people that probably have never donated to anything in their lives.

Moral of the story: quit the "Do as I say, Not as I Do" routine.. it's tired.

Re:Spare me the drama

[Reality Master 101]

Why is it people relate IndyMedia to terrorism? Perhaps some of the journalists related to it have slanted views and it reflects that in their stories but how is this different than mainstream media? [...] Isn't the basis of IndyMedia freedom of speech?

Just because everyone has freedom of speech doesn't mean all speech has the same value.

Not everyone who is a member of PETA is an anti-human idiot. But I would still treat anyone associated with the organization with deep, deep suspicion and would never, ever give them money. Like it or not, you will be judged based on who you associate with.

Computers and Anti-globalization

[z_gringo]

From the article,
Anti-globalization activists in Oakland, Calif., are recycling old machines, loading them with free software and shipping them off to Ecuador.

Doesnt something seem wrong with that sentence? How do they "ship them off" without support companies like UPS, FEDEX, DHL or whatever. Dont they all hate those companies?

Also, why are they against free trade? Its hard to get a feel for what these people stand for, and why. They say they are defending poor people, but how? Wont the isolation they seem to want, keep the poor people poor?

That being said, I think that more computers in south america is great. I dont know how this particular group came upon this idea however. Also, the article is a bit short on details, as to where the computers will be housed, and maintained etc.. It also goes on to explain that some will form a wireless network in Quito, but the rest will go to small towns.. How are those computers going to be useful?

It all sounds like a great idea, but I really dont understand these people.. I think they do more harm than good to the very people that they say they want to help..

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[lysurgon]

Also, why are they against free trade?

Anti-Globalization != Anti-Free-Trade

Of course, that's assuming by "free trade" you really mean, "fair and mutually beneficial commercial relations that do not result in the exploitation of one party by another," and not "corporate imporialism/hegemony."

People who oppose "globalization" are generally greatly in favor of international dialogue and cultural exchange, but oppose commercial and cultural dominance/exploitation.

Incidentally, sending computers and other communications equipment to a needy country, if done correctly and followed through on, is actually a far better initiative in terms of improving local conditions than sending the same dollar amount of food. There's a general tendency in foreign aid and foreign charity to create a state of dependence rather than foster indigenous production, commerce and enterprise. Give a man a fish vs. Teach a man to fish, etc etc etc. That's what communications and technology can do.

The bottom line is that "These People" don't trust extra-national corportate interests to improve the conditions of third world countries and seek to improve the conditions there by fostering more robust local economic conditions rather than a state of international dependence.

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[elefantstn]

Of course, that's assuming by "free trade" you really mean, "fair and mutually beneficial commercial relations that do not result in the exploitation of one party by another," and not "corporate imporialism/hegemony."

When rational arguments fail, there's always over-hyped meaningless buzzwords, right?

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[z_gringo]

Would you happen to have a link that accurately describes what these people are going for? I have read several of the website, and seem to find conflicting information, and in some cases, just downright insanity. They dont have a clear message. They seem to cause a lot of trouble in their protests, and they also seem to be against many things that I am in favor of, for example, mutually beneficial free trade, and Open Borders.

The current EU is a good example Open borders have been good for everyone. Sure there are a few problems, but basically, its gone well for everyone. including the poorer countries.

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[gotih]

oh, the sad state of the american educational system. actually, those words are perfectly valid and have existed for years (not buzzwords) they describe exactly what the poster meant which is the goal of language.

next time, instead of posting your ignorance, learn: dictionary.com

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[elefantstn]

Not familiar with semantics and linguistics, are we? "Perfectly valid" words are often divorced from their meaning -- if I yell "Shit!" am I thinking of feces as I do it?

The parent poster's little diatribe about "corporate hegemony" is a perfect example of the typical leftist tactic of taking fifty-cent words they don't really understand and putting them together to sound mean and nasty, without any regard for the facts of the actual situation they're purporting to describe.

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[Joe Enduser]

See "Politics And The English Language" by George Orwell. Don't remember if it concerned typical leftist or rightist tactic though.

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[lysurgon]

When rational arguments fail, there's always over-hyped meaningless buzzwords, right?

On both sides of the argument, you're correct.

However, I don't think that "fair and mutually beneficial commercial relations that do not result in the exploitation of one party by another" is a collection of over-hyped and meaningless buzzwords. The concept of Corportate Hegemony sadly gets a lot more airtime, which is a big problem with the left: it's basically a dissident or anti-movement, a collection of arguments against the way things are going rather than for a rational alternative.

I for one don't think this is due to a lack of rational alternatives. Hence "fair and mutually beneficial commercial relations that do not result in the exploitation of one party by another".

Peace

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[lysurgon]

I particularly love it when these l00ns talk about cultural dominance and cultural exploitation. They would have you believe that Mickey Mouse is putting a gun to people's head saying that they will listen to Brittney Spears.

Since I started it, I'll bite, just in case anyone with an un-made-up mind happens to read this thread.

The notion of cultural dominance is not one of overt coercion by means of violence. There's a long (and natural) history of other cultures following whoever seems to be leading the pack.

However, with todays global marketplace for entertainment, the ability of a dominant nation (e.g. the US) to export its culture to other nations has reached an unprecidented high-water mark. This results in an increasingly bland homoginzation of art and entertainment thoughout the world and generates significant resentment/backlash in many places.

I don't believe this is a Good Thing, and I also don't believe that This Is The Way It Has To Be. By bringin more producers and more viewpoints into the global cultural exchange, we can keep all of our minds active, challanged and resilliant. Of course this is pretty un-american, this talking of "active minds".

Re:Computers and Anti-globalization

[andcal]

First, I think that people who are against "globalization" (probably the most ambiguous term in the history of the world) might want to spend more time trying to explain what they are for, louder than what they are against, because it would seem that the anti-free-trade people and the anti-globalization people get thrown together a lot, since they have common enemies, and as a result, lots of us are baffled, wondering what sort of stone age this lot prefer to live in.

Having said that, I would suggest to people worried that what passes for "culture" today (I totally agree that pop culture of today is bland and unappetizing) not worry so much, because one of the laws of the free market (in my own words) is that "stuff that sucks enough will eventually be replaced by stuff that doesn't such quite as much."

Re:yeah.

[dmadole]

I find it ironic that many people in the this community find it necessary to complain about the actions of other groups when they don't necessarily agree with the intentions of that group.

I thought that was a good reason. After all, actions are how people carry out intentions.

Would you rather we complain based on the color of their skin, or nationality, or sexual preference, or what, then?

Re:Huh?

[SPosselt]

As for the *DEFINITION*, as you put it, you might want to look it up, some other time before you troll.

As for the rest of your nonsense, you should consider the possibility that some people might disagree with the Israeli oppression of the palestineans as well as the palestinean terror.

Re:Why Equador?

[Trespass]

Yeah, okay. You got me. :^P

If socialist dogma is your thing

[flinxmeister]

then go for it. Personally, I find indymedia to be socialist propoganda. I wouldn't get involved with this, but I wouldn't get involved with "Linux boxes for the Aryan Nation" either.

Re:If socialist dogma is your thing

[buswolley]

All the old names for ideologies are irrelevant. New forms exist that are independant of the old ways of looking at things.

The world is moving too quickly in too many directions for a stereotype of "socialism" to have any substance other than perception.

The world's attempts at Capitalism and Socialism has never been anything other than a competition between variants of FEUDALISM ; where the few own the vast majority of capital, passing from generation to generation. The indymedia do tend toward humanitarian, equalitarian politics, and the political party agendas that they associate themselves to. However to say that the indimedia is advocating socialism is wrong. Socialism is an ideology that has never existed without a coloring of Feaudalism.

Mod me down then.

Re:If socialist dogma is your thing

[flinxmeister]

Ah...we could compare textbooks for hours, debating the various definitions of political systems and whether they existed or not. But it's funny how all these rebranding efforts (equalitarian, humanitarian, social democracy, social responsibility, etc) started when the soviet union fell. It's just a wound licking effort by failed political systems to say that the political system, in fact, never existed.

Of course it never existed, because we don't live in a textbook.

But if we're going to play it that way, then:

If a political ideology that favors oppression by powers paying lip service to the plight of the worker is your thing, then go ahead and support indymedia's efforts. If you're more of the political ideology that favors simple oppression by powers that simply have wealth with the opportunity to secure wealth by all involved, then don't.

To say indymedia is "humanitarian" is laughable. They'd support the slaughtering a babies, as long as the babies were the offspring of multi-national capitalists.

Re:If socialist dogma is your thing

[Platinum Dragon]

But it's funny how all these rebranding efforts (equalitarian, humanitarian, social democracy, social responsibility, etc) started when the soviet union fell. It's just a wound licking effort by failed political systems to say that the political system, in fact, never existed.

If you think Indymedia is full of Marx-spewing Stalinoid USSR apologists, you seriously need to look harder.

-Plat, occasional Indymedia contributor and definitely not a Trot.

Re:If socialist dogma is your thing

[buswolley]

Actually what I am saying is that The difference between capitalism and socialism, as they were both tested in the real world, is not much different.

Capitalistic democracy is a feudalistic society where power lies in the wealthy.

Communism is where the government runs the economy, and the rich run the Governement. This is how both captitalism and socialism have been tried. I dont see much difference.

Re:If socialist dogma is your thing

[flinxmeister]

I see your point, but it's not really saying anything. The rich and the powerful are by definition the rich and the powerful. The huge difference between historical capitalism and historical socialism is how we as individuals *can* live our lives, and the power given to the lower and middle classes.

The corruption of the U.S. (enron, etc) is nothing compared to the corruption of the U.S.S.R., where in it's most glaring example, millions of people disappeared.

It is 1000 times better to live under U.S. capitalism/republican democracy than under the former U.S.S.R., or any of it's remaining offshoots. Just talk to some folks who lived in both. To say that they are no different might sound good in a PO401 packet printed in the university printshop for a phd, but it is incorrect in the extreme.

Back to the topic at hand. I'd simply rather not give my time and resources to an ideology that so closely resembles that former politic. If you do, then fine.

Re:If socialist dogma is your thing

[flinxmeister]

I was referring to the opinion that textbook capitalism and textbook socialism are no different.

Indymedia is more anti-capitalist with a dose of anarchist than classic marxist or socialist. But the roots of the hatred are the same raw stuff of both.

Watch out with labels

[cheezycrust]

I don't think you can place a clear label on Indymedia, link you can't place a clear label on all open software users. We aren't all commies, and we know that.

Indymedia is so heterogenous, that you need to judge individual projects, like this one, if you want to decide to support them or not. They don't have leaders that make up big plans, they are more like lots of local groups that do what they think is good.

And maybe you haven't read the other comments, but Free Geek is supporting this action - so helping them could also mean helping this project ;)

Re:Watch out with labels

[Platinum Dragon]

And the problem with that is?

-Plat, an anarchist

Re:Watch out with labels

[Doppler00]

I don't think you can place a clear label on Indymedia

Just look at their website. The first story they have on it is anti-nuclear. The other stories have a similiar left-wing slant to them. It's fairly easy to recognize the views of the authors. I don't believe there is such thing as "zero" biased. Everyone has a bias.

Re:Huh?

[SN74S181]

They didn't need them. But RedHat couldn't sell them (some fugger stuck CheapBytes stickers on the boxes urging potential customers to buy their CDs for a few dollars instead) so they had to scrap them out.

You guys are missing the point

[ProppaT]

You guys are all missing the point. The donation from Indymedia is to support free speach, not to give kids in Ecuador a free computer. With these computers, Ecuadorian people will be able to show the outer world life within Ecuador through the use of the internet. This all leads to globalization, not anti-globalization as quite a few posters labled Indymedia.

Indymedia is only moderately left wing. They're about trying to show world views of current global/local problems. The only reason many people view them as extremely left wing is because they talk about issues such as animal rights, womens' rights, environmental issues, violence/war, and governmental issues. Frankly, if you see these issues as left wing, that's pretty sad. These are issues everyone should be concerned with...and most of the world outside of the US speaks about openly. Indymedia about the closest thing we have to unbiased news in the US. Think about that next time you turn on Fox News and watch your daily dose of sensationalism

Re:You guys are missing the point

[Platinum Dragon]

Indymedia is only moderately left wing.

It's imprecise to pin Indymedia down to a single viewpoint. Many of the volunteers are either anarchists; some are Marxists, a few are libertarian in the American sense, some are trade unionists, single-issue activists, et al. The viewpoints expressed generally range from moderately left-wing, to way off the political fringe (like myself). Occasionally, abuse of the open publishing system crops up when racists and Jew-haters try to recruit. Most readers see right through it.

Indymedia's pretty varied. It may seem like a bunch of whiny college kiddies in North America at first glance, but many IMCs such as the ones in Argentina, SF, NYC, and Israel are doing some spectacular coverage of events and issues you'd never hear about via mainstream media.

Three Points

[cybermace5]

Point 1: These computers are not going to poor underpriveleged kids, these are a bit off-the-edge activists with some fringe anti-American tendencies.

Point 2: No matter who they're going to, 300 computers is insignificant. Many medium-sized businesses are getting rid of old computers in these numbers. And since these computers aren't going to help poor kids in schools learn technology, it has no effect. Not newsworthy. I've personally disposed of hundreds of computers, and I'd always put a nice package of freeware on the hard drive before sending it away.

Point 3: The only reason this is happening, is to get some good press. This isn't a "helping a child" story, or a "rejuvenating a country" story, or anything like that, but that's how it is being reported. I'd like to see how many millions of dollars of financial support our government spends in the same country, yet totally goes unreported and uncredited.

Is there anything like this in NJ/NY?

[Ride-My-Rocket]

I'm looking to get into Linux _and_ get more nitty-gritty experience with hardware....... I don't suppose there's anything like this in NJ/NY? I'd gladly volunteer my time with an effort like this, in exchange for some hand-holding and with the product of my efforts ultimately going towards a good cause.

I nominate these geeks for "Ugly American Award"

[ElectricRook]

I guess these geeks never read "Animal Farm", "The Communist Manifesto", "The Ugly American", and discussed them anyone who lived in a communist country.

To them, I say "Those who do not learn the lessons of history are condenmed to repeat them".

I learned these lessons... They were not pretty. Matter of fact, they were pretty horrible. I for one don't plan on re-enacting them!

Geeks getting into development

[electroniceric]

I am profoundly glad to see the merging of techies with global development.

As a note of caution:
My own experience doing this (built a computer lab in Nicaragua) sort of thing suggests that these folks will run into many political and economic complexities in the places they go to install computers e.g.:

• Computers tend to end up in homes and offices of well-connected people who tend have electricity and a place to put a computer
• Often they molder away unused for lack of some kind of hardware or software fix
• When you start asking how to robustly improve the welfare of a lot of citizens, it becomes a lot less clear whether donations simply improve the lot of a couple people, or are a band-aid, or really do something. No matter what, changing the fabric of a society takes years and years, a kind of progress us internet-speed twenty year-olds don't have much experiencew with.

In any event, I hope everyone involved will learn a lot from the process and it will motivate more geeks to get involved with those who have much less than themselves (not the least of the reasons being that it makes you happier).

Not the best idea..

[ChronoZ]

From the article:

..300 computers that are being shipped to Ecuador will stay there; some will be used in Quito, the capital city, where activists will also set up a citywide wireless network, but many will be sent to various towns and villages all over the region. "It's interesting because on some level you might say these people don't need computers -- they need clean water, housing and some sort of economic base that's not exploited," Henshaw-Plath says. "But we're saying that giving computers to the right people, that's the tool to get that social change."


I can tell you for a fact (I come from Ecuador) that the people there DO need clean water and housing, along with EDUCATION in order to actually USE these computers and the wireless network.
Without this knowledge, the people who they'd like to help won't know and eventually won't CARE about the computers.

I'm sorry but I really believe that these people are out of touch with the common person in Ecuador..

about who you're helping...

[tid242]

In response to: "Maybe we should give poor people in third-world countries the chance to rise above their current conditions, eh?"

From the linked article: Project to ship a container of 230 refurbished computers to Ecuador to extend the technical capacity of civil society and the anti-globalization movement leading up to the anti-FTAA protests in early November.

While i'm all about helping people with noble causes who are less fortunate than i happen to be, supporting an anti-globalization movement isn't really my idea of helping all the poor people in their country who don't share their beliefs.

This is kind of an aside but globalization (i prefer "globalisation" myself) is a good thing for poor countries in that it allows 3rd world nations access to 1st world markets, such as agricultural markets (they don't currently have access to these markets as 1st world nations spend about $300,000,000,000 (yes, that's the correct number of zeros) per year on subsidising our own agricultural producers (ie artifical barriers to market presence). The same is true for textiles. i'm not saying Equador's economic/political woes would be cured by access to global markets, rather that non-global markets tend to hurt small and underdeveloped economies much more than it helps them. For every Mcdonalds that moves in there're a million farmers who are now able to sell their goods for a great deal more then they could have ever dreamed to have done in local street-markets...

Don't get my wrong, i'm not advocating throwing away computer parts instead of donating them, just to remember that helping "poor people" doesn't necessarily help *all* poor people. Yes we should be helping our brothren, but just keep in mind who we're supporting... :)

-tid242

Re:about who you're helping...

[tid242]

since your score is "0" i'll repost your comment...
This is so typical of the libertarian slashdot crowd. Globalization doesn't in fact give 3rd world nations access to first world markets other than to open up their workers and resources to more efficient exploitation. Or am I wrong, are they making {computers, cell phones, any kind of consumer goods} in Zaire these days? It's cheaper to just suck up the resources of a 3rd world nation than to try to (for example) set up a chip fabrication plant there. If the country is really lucky, they'll get some jobs from stuff lower down the supply chain...but that's not really luck either, since you get almost no pay for the workers, but lots of pollution and industrial risks (Bhopal anyone?) And let's not forget the impact of viral American mass-culture on the culture of these 3rd world nations we're "helping"...

Anyway i won't attack you like your "libertarian" bash but...

Globalization doesn't in fact give 3rd world nations access to first world markets other than to open up their workers and resources to more efficient exploitation.

So then, let me get this straight: 3rd world nations benifit more from 1st world nations locking them out of their markets? If you're going to start talking about sweatshops and the like keep in mind that many companies (particularly clothing companies) have their sweat shops in US protectorites where fed. laws regarding wage and work conditions do not apply, but tarrifs need not be paid (ie in places generally out of the reach of the major goals of globalization proponents)...

And as for your comment on Zaire (which is no longer the country's name, it's actually on its second name since then...) answer this question and you'll rethink your rhetoric: how many civil wars has this country had in the past 30 years? Do they make Nokia, Intels, and carbon nano-tubes? of course they don't, are they able to make these? not currently. What do they make there? Gosh let's see... Grains, other food, etc. etc. Globalization doesn't mean exploitation just as Not globalizing doesn't mean forcing 1st world companies to open up high-tech multi-billion dollar outfits in 3rd world places where disgruntled thugs and corrupt governments have a penchant for burning down billion dollar 1st world assets (as one might surmise from reading your statement). Globalizing is about allowing the average poor person to be able to sell what he/she is capible of making/growing/providing to markets who value his/her produce at a higher monetary value than does his/her neighbor (who also happens to make about $0.75 per day)...

-tid242

So is Louis Farrakahn

[ACNeal]

If you are a Black muslim, he is very anti-racist. Just don't ask him what he thinks of whites, Christians, or Jews.

I don't know the story fully, but neither of you showed support for your claims. If I claim to be anti-racist, and print decisivly anti-Jewish slants on all my articles, one might draw the conclusion that I was anti-semitic. Do they claim to be anti-racist? Do they back it up with well rounded journalism? Do they not really say, but it is obvious by their well rounded journalism?

"I am not racist, I had a black friend once."
-Anonymous

Re:yeah.

[joshsisk]

The thing about Indymedia is that anyone can post an article. Most of the people that do are left of center. But I've seen some intense right-wing stuff going on there, too. It's all biased, but I think that most journalism is, it's just less obvious about it.

Ecuador != South America

[gregorio]

The machines will be used to create free public computer labs across South America, networked with donated wireless 802.11b cards.

Their project is being implementar just in Ecuador, not in the whole continent.

BTW: They should focus on helping other people, not on their useless agenda, they are not going to be able to stop any continent-wide agreements, PERIOD.
If they refuse to use their resources to help people (like giving computers to a public school), they'll be proving that they're a much bigger part of the problem than everyone else in their country, because they are moving computers across continents just to have their little comunist ideology-spreading network, instead of helping poor people.
Useless activism *doesn't* help people, what the third world needs now is less corruption and more *serious* representation, not some whiny geeks speding resources that could be used in places like public schools. If they want to fight against ALCA, then they should become (or support) politicians, very polite and eligible politicians, not whiny bearded communists that will never get elected because they don't look like help, they look more like a threat.

More information about the project

[gampid]

First off there have been a few other articles about this. First on Kuro5hin and a video (real video i'm sorry).

Regarding the boxes. They are all donated either to ACCRC in Oakland or FreeGeek in Portland. We spent the last several weeks going through all the old lower end boxes they had and trying to make workable boxes out of them. Because we were getting together 235 computers we lowered our standards from what ACCRC or FreeGeek normally will send out. The boxes range from 100 mhz to 333mhz P I's and II's. Our goal at accrc was to get 64 megs of ram but freegeek doesn't have quite the resources that accrc gets from the bay area so they used 8meg edo simm's which means the box only gets 32megs total. All of the boxes have NIC cards, 1 gig or better hard drives, and a video card. There were sound cards in a bunch of them but we didn't have the time to go through and configure them. The same goes for modems, we actually tried to add modems but if kudzu didn't find it we just left it in there unconfigured and moved on to the next box.

The final setup we used was based on a netinstall / net boot system that the freegeek folks have put together called lessdisks. After a little pain recompiling the kernels to make sure we had support for all the random ethernet cards we got the install process really streamlined. We'd make sure the box had a hard drive, ram, video, and ethernet. Then we'd pop in the netinstall disk. It boot up using grub and our kernel would just nfs mount from a local server. Everything else was pulled over the network. We had scripts for formatting the hard drives which just set everything up with boot, swap, and one big main partition. On the server we had a clone of a server which was used as the base for each install. After everything was copied over we ran a bunch of scripts which tried to detect all the hardware. We then had like 4 questions which we need to answer on each box to detect the sound card, video for x, and mouse. This process made doing a couple hundred installs MUCH easier. Because we were finishing up the software configuration at the same time as we were rolling out boxes we have another option in the lessdisks install to do an rsync update. This let us fiddle with the spanish configuration and setup until two days before we packed everything up on palettes.

We used ICE for the window manager, Rox as a desktop, and KOffice for the basic apps. KDE, Gnome, StarOffice, and Mozilla were all way to bloated for this class of machine.

If you're in the Bay Area or Portland and are interested we will be working on sending more shipments of computers to south america in a few months. Please send me an email, evan at indymedia.org if you want to be notified when we start.

Not that I disagree with you

[Anonymous Coward]

But what are these policies that have enraged the Muslims?

And why are they the fault of the Bush's? Bush had been in office a little over a year, and the specific attack on the WTC was in planning for more than a year. It is easy to say, and based on nothing more than common wisdom (very rarely correct), but Bush, and his policies wouldn't have even affected anyone when the planning started.

The Muslims have already stated that all western society must fall. Bush, either one of them, haven't created the Protestant, or more generically, the Christian, ethic. These are the things that the fundamentalist Muslims were attacking. Unfortunately for all the atheists, Muslims don't see a big difference between the two groups, as they are all infidels, and deserve to die.

The nerve gas isn't going to reach here, so where is it going to go?

Man Helps Starving Kitten - Slashdot Readers Angry

[Angry Toad]

Sheesh, people need to grab a bit of perspective here. They're talking about doing a bit of work to help out the needy in a poor country. From the response you'd think they were throwing Molotov Cocktails on the White House lawn.

People need to go have a walk and clear the dogma from their heads if they really think this is somehow an evil conspiracy.

Re:yeah.

[electroniceric]

If it makes you feel better to call republicans cocks instead of engaging people on the issues you deserve the biased opinion indymedia will give you..

That's a great point. There is far too much demonizing of Republicans - and worse a lot of subtle patronizing of everybody - by left-oriented publications. And there are indeed two sides to every coin.

But the nastiness definitely cuts both ways. I don't need to remind you that Rush Limbaugh and many other cronies have spent a lot of time abusing things like the very idea of any legal protection for the environment, and always using the most scathing personal attacks.

Ultimately all media has an angle. I agree with the posters who complain that the consolidation of media in this country produces a flat point of view. But we've got internet news, let's use it. Read Indymedia, take it for what it's worth: a lefty, activist-friendly rag. Read other countries' major newspapers - almost all of them have English-language editions. Compare the Washington Post to the Boston Globe to Le Monde. You probably won't change your core beliefs, but you sure will get a broader perspective on all these things.

Confused leftists play into globalization's hands

[eshan]

While I normally try to convince anti-globlization activists of the merits of globalization whenever I can, this time I will hold my tongue. How can plugging a third world country into the internet be seen as anything else but furthering globalization?

If there are group like this in New York City, I would love to volunteer my spare parts and time, all the while chuckling to myself about how it furthers my agenda and not theirs.

Besides, if developing countries end up with an entrenched linux market share, MS will be pressured to build a compelling Switch campaign, a la Apple. The ensuing competition benefits the whole world.

Anti-American sentiment

[ACNeal]

Always gets at least +2 Informative.

Yet an actual historically aware post gets labeled Troll.

I love this moderation system. Something based on nothing but supposition and strong sentiment gets an informative, something based on history gets a troll.

The attack wasn't aimed at Bush. It was aimed at western civilization as a whole. The same things that make us a target for attacks about being arrogant (uneducated spite at our icon status) make us a target for people attacking the icon.

Re:I nominate these geeks for "Ugly American Award

[ElectricRook]

There is an awfully big difference between responsible socialism and dictatorial communism, dimwit.

Of course there is... Dictatorial Communism is Pretty Horrible, while Responsible Socialism is merely Slightly Horrible.

I on the other hand perfer to be free from the tyranny of elected officials buying votes with my bread.

Re:Man Helps Starving Kitten - Slashdot Readers An

[Kphrak]

A. It's not just a man helping someone; it's an organization of activists that has some rather extreme viewpoints, that some of us don't trust. They're asking for our money, so we would do well to examine them carefully.

B. The "needy" in this case can be defined as "friends of Indymedia in another country". We're not helping some starving kid here. I wouldn't give the editors of Indymedia a computer if they wanted one. Why would I want to help them give one to their friends?

C. The feasibility of the project needs to be looked at as well. Does this project make any sense considering the country's electrical grid, laws, politics, and Internet connectivity, or is it just a political gesture? I suspect it's the latter.

Dogma, BTW, is an established viewpoint created to be repeated without scrutiny. What you're seeing here on Slashdot is "skepticism", which is a whole different animal.

No such thing as charity...

[FatSean]

Everyone wants something in return. The churches runnig shelters want converts, this particular group of free-timers wants to fight globalization. I prefer to give directly to the poor, in the form of dollars for forties.

Same here!

[nadie]

Partners in Solidarity here in Xela did a similiar thing a few months ago. Matthew Rutman arranged for about 50 old computers to be sent to Guatemala. then, at the Centro de Internet CELAS Maya, we switched them over to a trim Debian Linux installation, but including a SpreadSheet, WordProcessing, Email, Browser, etc. They are mostly P200 with 32MB ram. The lack of surge protectors or ups's has been a problem, as several monitors and machines have been fried.

Re:Confused leftists play into globalization's han

[Platinum Dragon]

While I normally try to convince anti-globlization activists of the merits of globalization whenever I can, this time I will hold my tongue. How can plugging a third world country into the internet be seen as anything else but furthering globalization?

I think you're confused.

'Anti-globalization' activists aren't against greater communication and information exchange. Indeed, many are anarchists that would like to see all borders fall and all imposed limits between various peoples disappear.

They are, however, generally against the consolidation of global economic power among a power elite who socialize costs while privatizing benefits. At the moment, globalization seems to be more about extending Western economic power and authority than really improving the lives and freedom of all people.

Re:yeah.

[N3WBI3]

Yes I would, and sometimes do but I am not so narrow minded to vote for one party all the time. The libertarians go a tad too close to anarchy for me.

Notice I said smaller federal government, now at the state level I would fight for smaller govt too, but theat is my fight in NY not someone in CA..

It must be nice to be in a party in which everyone has a better handel on everything than anyone else in any party..

there is alot of truth in this

[gimpboy]

Sending food ruins local economy as it works as would dumping of say memories into this country.


colombia used to produce alot of it's own wheat. back in the 60s or 70's the us started dumping wheat on their market left over from subsiding
farmers in the us. this infusion of wheat dropped the price of wheat in colombia to the point where farmers couldnt make any money on it. the farmers had to produce something to feed their families.. you can guess what that something was. now we are opressing them with a war on drugs.

Re:He is basically right

[MannyDixn]

You are confusing the organization itself with the voices they allow to be heard. Where else do you have the opportunity to hear from communists, Puerto-Rican separatists, or some common regular folks from the third world? Of the multitude of voices that you will hear, consider each viewpoint on its own merit, that's what freedom of speech is all about. It is essential that all voices be heard.

I also urge you to pick up a book on economics before you come out either in favor of against so-called "globalization." It's not that simple. The world is a global marketplace, whether you like it or not. The debate is about how it is to be structured. If two countries suddenly do away with tariffs on imported goods, and the industry of one of the countries is much further advanced and is able to produce goods cheaper, the other country's industry will naturally be harmed. It is healthy and necessary to give the less developed country the incentive and the means to improve the state of their industry, but too sudden of a change can quickly put too many people out of work, leading to economic collapse. (This is just an example, not a real-world situation.)

There are other aspects to consider. The capitalist way of accounting (if you are a self-proclaimed capitalist and have any of that Ain Randian enlightened self interest, pay attention) does not assign any value to certain natural resources. How much is an unpolluted ocean worth, or a healthy forest? Now suppose one country is able to flood the market of another country with more cheaper goods faster that the second country ever could, because they harvest their lumber at a rate that does not leave a healthy forest, and pollute their (and everyone else's) oceans. Now imagine if a treaty is in place that precludes teh second country from imposing tariffs on these goods that may be an asset to own today, but their production is an ecological liability. And these rising rates of pollutants translate into very real rising rates of cancer.

Consider another example. Local company A pays a $450 wage for 5000 units produced, produces a product that they are able to sell for $10, and keeps $3 in profit from each one sold. Off-shore company B pays a $500 wage, sells identical product for $9, keeps the same $3 in profit. It may seem like the locals are best off working for and buying from company B. However, while for every 5000 units manufactured and sold $5500 was gained in higher wages and lower prices, $15000 in profits left the country's economy. This is why we cry, "Buy American!" so isn't it natural that someone else will say, buy Ecuadorian?

Food for thought.

no fu�king sh!t

[SethJohnson]

This is perhaps the most clarity-filled perspective I've read on this topic.

Re:Confused leftists play into globalization's han

[eshan]

They are sending the computers to Ecuador specifically because they are protesting the Free Trade Area of the Americas there. Free trade involves killing subsidies and tariffs, something I imagine "anarchists that would like to see all borders fall and all imposed limits between various peoples disappear" supporting, not protesting.

Globalization by definition involves the elimination of barriers between peoples and places. If this group, by donating computers, wants to ensure that globalization benefits everyone, not just the rich, I'm all for that. That's hardly "Anti-Globalization." Anti-Globalization is against the spread of capitalism, cultural imperialism, loss of national sovereignty, multinational corporations, etc. I don't see how this wonderful project fits into that idealogy.

Re:Confused leftists play into globalization's han

[TheSync]

It sounds like these computers will be used for producing additional anti-growth propoganda, and thus will actually work to keep people in poverty rather than fixing up the economically ignorant governments of the developing world.

I've got news for anti-globalists - there has been zero growth averaged across developing countries over the last ten years. And as a result, there is still massive poverty. Despite increasing levels of direct investment, developing country governments have been running massive deficits and allowing inflation to rule. Actually, direct investment in the poorest countries is decreasing, it is only the somewhat-with-it governments of Latin America that can keep investment coming in.

Of course, this is due in part because of the IMF and WB dumping dollars into developing governments without gettign any kind of "adjustments" in policy...so they are half-right to want to axe them.

If you axe the WB and IMF, we will stop supporting corrupt developing governments, and they will have to take drastic efforts to increase GDP growth lest they not get their pay...

Re:Confused leftists play into globalization's han

[Platinum Dragon]

Free trade involves killing subsidies and tariffs, something I imagine "anarchists that would like to see all borders fall and all imposed limits between various peoples disappear" supporting, not protesting.

FTAA does nothing to drop barriers to the flow of workers to find a better living conditions. It does drop barriers to the flow of capital. It does nothing to ensure that employees will get paid a wage they can live on, continue to have access to arable land to grow food instead of cash crops, or see any benefit from the arrival of foreign operations, but it does ensure companies can move their operations from country to country almost at will in order to maximize profits. The idea that third-world companies will be able to take advantage of North American markets assumes North American companies won't go to third-world countries and squash the local competition first, funnelling the big wins back to HQ. This is the big fear, and it has some basis in reality, as many large Western companies have taken advantage of a lack of strong labour traditions in numerous less-industrialized nations to pay criminally-low wages and maintain conditions that would cause American workers to riot.

Activists in South American nations, among other places, share fears that local economies won't be given a chance to benefit from supposedly free trade, or that the arrival of companies looking to take advantage of the lack of labour laws and tariffs will actually damage and drain societies that, in a fair trade, would benefit. It should be noted that FTAA, and the Bretton Woods organizations, practically demand the elimination of any subsidies and labour protection laws, things that even the U.S. doesn't do and likely wouldn't agree to. Generally, these deals and organizations are less about levelling the playing field than just making it easier for economic powers to increase their growth, as if making money is the most important thing on Earth.

Re:Confused leftists play into globalization's han

[eshan]

The FTAA doesn't ensure living wages in the US, either. Minimum standards are each country's resposibility, and the FTAA doesn't interfere with that. Some countries have specifically decided against raising minimum wage to court multinationals, which is their right. In any case, the solution is more globalization, not less. Labor unions are already reaching out to third world countries to improve labor standards, in a mix of altruism and self-interest. They don't want to see workers anywhere abused, and they also don't want to see US factories move overseas to cheaper labor.

The result of trade summits is always the demanding to eliminate subsidies and protectionist policies. As organizations such as the WTO grow in power, the US will be obliged to keep their policies in line. That is why these summits are important, and these protests misguided.

Re:He is basically right

[YrWrstNtmr]

You are confusing the organization itself with the voices they allow to be heard.

You miss the point of my post, sir. Is IndyMedia an organization worthy of receiving my money/time/material, or they not?
They proclaim to be the voice of everyone. Judging by many (all that I've seen) of the writings on their websites, they seem to be decidedly one sided.

From www.indymedia.org: The Independent Media Center is a network of collectively run media outlets for the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of the truth. We work out of a love and inspiration for people who continue to work for a better world, despite corporate media's distortions and unwillingness to cover the efforts to free humanity.

"...the creation of radical, accurate, and passionate tellings of the truth. "

From reading many of the writings at indymedia.org, accurate only applies when it agrees with the editors viewpoint.

"...despite corporate media's distortions and unwillingness..."
Sounds like a predisposition to disbelieve anything but what exists on their website.

It is essential that all voices be heard.
Exactly. Show me some opposing viewpoints from IndyMedia.org.
Free speech is great, and needs to be promoted/enforced/protected at all times. Free speech means "free". Any and all viewpoints. Not just those that you agree with.

Whether globalization is a GoodThing(tm) or not, has little to do with the effects of indymedia.org's efforts and policies.
And not denouncing acts of terrorism, but merely calling it civil disobidience by "freedom fighters" is at least as bad as corporate greed.

300 Computers can be Amazingly significant.

[billstewart]

Point 1 - True, but a lot of these are going to the Indymedia news folks. They may be clueless about economics, but anybody who can't tell that the International Monetary Fund aren't clueless corrupt government-funded supporters of corrupt governments hasn't been paying attention. Their news may be biased, but it has a much wider range of biases than the Capitalist Broadcasting System, and especially in the third world, it's important to have news sources that are independent of the government news channels.

Point 2 - 300 computers to a news-gathering organization can be amazingly significant; 300 computers to schools would be a drop in the bucket, though the long-term payback would still be worthwhile. Sure, most of these machines are Offical Doorstops today, which means that they can run Microsoft Office version N, N-1, or N-2 at reasonable speed, and can't play recent video games, but people running news-gathering organizations need text-handling, email, and simple databases can do amazing things with 486s. A 14.4kbps modem is about 200 times faster than most people type. (And 486s could run Doom, which was really amazing in its day.)

Point 3 - Hey, Indymedia are a press organization - of course they're going to give good press to things that help them get press :-) If your government is the US government, they do spend many millions of dollars in most Latin American countries - most of it given to the local militaries to buy US-made military equipment, and most of the rest of it to run wars against their populations in the name of drug eradication (remember, if you're not smoking US-grown marijuana, you're supporting terrorism!). Some of the money does go to agricultural research, though most of that benefits large-scale agribusiness rather than decentralized small farming, and very little of it has unfortunately been done in ways that protects the environment and gives small farmers a better choice than either the traditional slash-and-burn methods (massively ecologically destructive) or dependence on industry-produced chemicals (produces economic dependence as well as pesticide damage.)

Re:Confused leftists play into globalization's han

[billstewart]

Many of them *are* against greater communication and information exchange. That's especially true if the communication includes container ships as well as just verbal communications, because the low cost of shipping goods makes it easy for people to trade with each other, and they also oppose communications about things that people want to buy and sell, as opposed to just cultural exchanges, and they oppose cultural exchange as well, at least the direction of it that involves Corporatist Homogenized Culture. Most of the anti-globalists I've talked to are clueless about economics, and unwilling to face free speech that has a scope broad enough to include Disney as well as including interesting speech or drivelling leftybabble.

Having said that, though, the protests themselves mainly occur at meetings of Western and other big governments, which generally *are* focused more on extending their power and authority and supporting their big political constituents than on genuine free trade. A Libertarian version of NAFTA wouldn't have been 1600 pages of protectionist rulemaking that shifts the details of who gets protected; it would have been a paragraph or so with a lot of room for signatures at the bottom. The IMF Austerity Rules that get imposed on any government that wants to borrow more money are generally pretty rational, if painful, because they have to get the target country on a revenue-positive economic track so they can get their earlier debts paid back. Unfortunately, however, both the old debts that are being paid back and the new money they're lending tend to be for projects that weren't economically viable, centralize power in the hands of the governments and usually the ruling elites, and if they aren't spent on the military, they tend to be spent on big development projects that are environmentally destructive or at best on Bread&Circuses. And many of these countries either have government-controlled broadcasting systems, or if they do have privatized media, it's still controlled by the Usual Suspects, so having an Indymedia type thing around to provide some alternative to the major media is really valuable.

Wait 15 minutes from another round of Moore's Law

[billstewart]

Tmark is wondering when *he'll* be able to afford this wireless technology. The price of 802.11b seems to have dropped by half in about the last six months; if you're still can't afford it, wait another 15 minutes and yet another brand will go on sale at Fry's.

Does anyone know who's got the CRT crushers?

[jeko]

Perhaps a bit off-topic, I know, but I was wondering if anyone knew of any companies that actually crush and re-smelt old CRTs, instead of just shipping them off to China?

My experience with Madison IMC

[haaz]

I've laughed a bit as I've read some of the trolls on here, and shaken my head at the more serious comments that suggest decent people that have a very misconstrued concept of what IMC is about.

The people that I know in my local Indymedia are all very much in favor of democritizing things. This includes government, media, and trade. (Lately I've been thinking that democracy is a more radical concept than most realize...)

Indymedia was founded around the time of the 1999 WTO protests, which were pro-democratic as much as ore more than they were anti-capitalist. (FTAA and NAFTA are rather the opposite, anti-democratic, pro-capitalist.)

Just so you get a feel of what's actually on an IMC, here's some of what was on madison.indymedia.org today:

- Madison City Council Considering Section 8 Housing Ordinance Tonight
- Digital Rights Management Begins Creeping Into Windows Software, Audio CDs (my article; summary of Slashdot, the Register, eWeek, other sources)
- UW Madison Students Defeat Attempt To Oust Progressive Campus Leaders
- My Summer Vacation as a Delegate at the AFL-CIO Convention

The stories such as these that get featured in the center column are usually of relatively high quality, of local interest, and linked to a longer article. Since joining the Madison IMC I've become one of the center column editors, although I never edit any articles that people have submitted. That goes against our ethics.

We strive for accuracy, passion, and truth. Not ratings or advertising dollars.

Last Post!

[alpg]

quit When the quit statement is read, the bc processor
is terminated, regardless of where the quit state-
ment is found. For example, "if (0 == 1) quit"
will cause bc to terminate.
-- seen in the manpage for "bc". Note the "if" statement's logic

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