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EBay Letting Fraud Slide?
joebagodonuts writes "MSNBC has an article charging that EBay's tough talk on fraud is just that. Talk." To a certain extent, I can understand the problem of having hundreds of thousands of auctions, and not being able to adequately police them - but ignoring fraud, when you have a policy stating otherwise is a Bad Thing.
I got nailed by a fraud auction (guy was selling items he didn't have in stock. Promised next day delivery...that was 3 months ago.)
Neither my CC company, nor PayPal (now owned by eBay) or eBay were overly interested in dealing with this. Yeah, they suspended his account, but because he didn't pay eBay, not because he ripped me (and hundreds of others as well) off.
I'm still in contact with the jerk, and I will have justice done, either by the proper authorities or.....
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
The truth is, ebay has limited recourse against fraud. So they can disable an account or block certain users, or blast their karma.
Us ("we") customers want financial recourse (i.e. our money back), and they can only do that if they control the cash flow.
Right now they don't, so they can't.
Awhile ago (probably about 2 years), I was helping a friend buy a computer on ebay. Checked out the ratings and such, and everything was fine, so I went ahead with paying for it (she gave me the $ for it). The company apparently 'went out of business'. Right. Within a few weeks there were over 200 negative responses. And at about $500 a pop, that's a pretty good amount of cash that went to who-knows-where. And ebay did *nothing* about it. Absolutely *nothing*. I'm willing to bet that whoever was selling just changed their name and did it all over again. That's why I stopped using ebay. And I felt really bad about telling my friend that her money disappeared into a bottomless pit.
Maybe they'll actually get a nice swift kick. Or maybe they'll just turn the other way again. And aren't they in kahoots with paypal. Yeah, that should explain *everything*.
If a and b in c, and a can create b, and a can create a, and b can create b, and b cannot create a, then a created c.
Ebay is a vendor, just like any other store they have no power to police, the only power they do have is over your account with them; Everything else product recovery/monetary reimbersement, has to go through the proper law enforcement channels. This gets even hairier when you consider different auctions in different countries quite possibly have a different set of laws that pertain to them. You complain to Ebay, they complain to the government; the government simply doesn't have the resources to pursue the mass counts of Minor fraud that ebay creates.
Remember when dealing with people; they lie, cheat and steal to get what they want, so anything that requires you to trust an unknown party is at your discretion. Work retail once and you will understand the lengths to which people go to steal that 2 dollar pack of baseball cards and the power you don't have to stop them.
"If I were bound by all laws everywhere I'm sure I would have committed a capital crime somewhere."
Fraud? what... from Paypal.. I mean eBay?
I think they'll be pushing paypal and fight fraud through paypal's current policies, of course they will guarrantee if your transaction is ONLY through paypal.
It only makes sense to do it this way since Paypal has really got a good rep with folks.
I have personally vouch for the fraud dept at paypal, I was a charged $200 fraudulently, and paypal reimbused me for the charge on the debit card 5 days later.
Ebay on the other hand has a terrible reputation for following up on fraud.
I just hope they don't make Paypal have a rep as crappy as eBays by changing the policy at paypal.
Mabidex
This is hardly a surprise, one would think it obvious that the resources it would cost Ebay as a company to have to keep track of, let alone take action upon, the constant fraud cases would be immense. As long as a high enough percentage of trades are legitimate and involve satisfied customers, no legal organization is going to bother holding Ebay responsible.
I would have thought that reporting fraudulent users and such would be more the responsibility of the end users anyways, since its not much different than having people make purchases from someone at a flea market or something like that. You dont hold the owner of the building responsible if the "antique" you bought turned out to be a cheap knockoff.
Or do you? I'm not entirely sure of all american small courts laws.
Ice Cream has no bones.
I kinda thought ebay's whole attitude was Use An Escrow Agent If You Don't Want To Get Ripped Off. Now, if the escrow people are defrauding you, then that's a different story.
I have a bunch of stuff I'd like to sell, like a guitar and a mountain bike and a computer, but I'm not going to bother putting it on ebay because my rating is a big fat zero, and I doubt anyone will want to buy from an unknown quantity such as myself.
Ebay has a profit motive to have as many auctions as possible. They also make more money when the price gets higher. They don't make money when they have to investigate fraud claims, and kick power sellers off the system.
Let's put it another way: Let's say you're a power seller, and you sell a $1000 item. You give ebay their cut ($150 I think) and pocket $850. Ebay is happy, you're happy, the only one unhappy is the "little guy."
Where is ebay's motivation to change the system? Libertarians and free market economic darwinists, start flaming now.
These guys have a superb rating on ResellerRating , so why deal with some amateur / potential crook at Ebay?
Help fight continental drift.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
This article is actually part of a series on online auctions. Here they are:
Part 1- The above linked story
Part 2- Cautionary tales of two auctions
Part 3- Auction fraud on the rise, some say
Part 4- Confessions of a scam artist
Part 5- Auction scam hits plasma TV buyers
Part 6- Auction fraud victims fight back
Part 7- eBay vs. the fraud police
Part 8- 'Deadbeat bidders' dog eBay sellers
Part 9- Fake escrow sites lure auction users
Who is John Galt?
I lose about $1000.00 per month on ebay due to copied software. I produce Video tutorials on CD, nerdmaker.com, and have to compete against $5.00 per CD copied software. After working with ebay for over 16 months, no changes have occured. Why would ebay want to change? They are, by a very wide margin, the number 1 auction site. Ebay makes money on a transaction weather its legal or not. The only motivation for change would be competition, and I don't see that happening soon.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Yes, the title is provocative.
How many people will read this article, or the posts on Slashdot byt the people that were ripped off, then go and buy something from eBay? Clearly, eBay knows that the majority of you will.
Your credit card provider doesn't help you, the small losses they get are covered by fees and interest rates. If it were a major problem, then Visa or Mastercard would close eBay's accounts.
Stores can prevent shoplifting by strip searching you all at the exit, but you won't go back. So, they tolerate a certain amount of "inventory shrinkage".
The fraud on eBay is tolerable to eBay, they're making tons of money......
You vote with your feet^H^H^H^Hmouse !
I've received dozens of the "U 2 KIN MAKE $$$$ ON EBAY" spams.
I've forwarded them on to eBay, saying "I know you didn't send this, but it is trading on your trademarked name, and damaging your credibility. You REALLY should serve this guy with a cease-and-desist order".
Every time, eBay has sent me the auto-ack message, and most of the time, a follow up saying <voice type="Goofy">"Duhhh-up Dis didn't come from us, No Sir, it didn't. Cain't do a thing about it, nope."</voice>
eBay likes spam like that, because it encourages people to buy and sell stuff on eBay, making eBay money. As long as they have plausible deniability, and will therefor suffer no ill effects from the fraud themselves, they will tacitly allow it to continue.
www.eFax.com are spammers
As if things are bad enough under the surface, eBay just finished its business absorption of PayPal. PayPal has it's own fraudulent problems, especially with credit card fraud. Check out PayPal warning. The stories on this website scare me because I use PayPal regularly but now I tend to withdraw all but $1.35 from my account just to be safe.
You should only buy things that cost as much as you are willing to loose. You rarely hear of companies engaging in massive fraud, it is usually from ebay, some similar auction site, and most often individuals. Stick to solid companies like amazon or airlines or dell. Or companies you trust. People are going to scam you and places like ebay provide the most potential victims. 5 or so years ago, the place was usenet. Just as much fraud went on there(and maybe still is, I haven't been there in a while.)
The posts you read about ebay being unable to police their auctions are totally incorrect. Amazon polices their auctions very well. If Amazon can do it, ebay can as well.
This does not surprise me at all. I, like many others, have been ripped off by bad auctions on the infamous eBay. Ever since they purchased PayPal I have refused to use the auction site. It is getting really rediculous. I will glady spend the extra bucks and purchase an item outright via Pricewatch or such, rather than deal with the hassels of bad auctioneers or just bad service.
[n8.r0n] http://petesweb.spymac.net/
To a certain extent, I can understand the problem of having hundreds of thousands of auctions...
This is a reasonable statement, and quite easy to agree with. (and yes, I know that Hemos went on to negate this phrase)
Don't.
It is unquestionably a massive and difficult undertaking to deal with fraud when you're operating on an eBay-like scale. It is also a primary purpose of their existence. eBay MUST deal with fraud at whatever cost (create a whole infrastructure for it if necessary--remember that only a few short years ago there existed no online auctions at all!), or they're simply not doing their job.
Not intended as a rant or finger-pointing here. I just don't want to see them get away with sliding if they're trying to.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
Other may have said the same thing (I haven't seen any comments with it yet), but if you don't want to get burned on eBay, use escrow.
It will cost a little more and be a little more of a pain, but then your money will be safe until the product is legitimately coming your way.
Or if you don't want to pay for escrow, at least ASK the seller if they will use escrow. If they say they won't, then don't go through with it. If they do, then you can go through them and just don't use it. If they were bluffing, well, you are screwed... but you have a better shot.
That said, I never use escrow. And I have never gotten burned as in, never had the item shipped, but I have gotten things that don't work as advertised, and some other sub-par stuff. Not to mention that people will boost their own bids through the roof by setting up multiple accounts and bidding on their own stuff, if they think you want it. So I try to avoid eBay whenever possible.
Mark
As much as it sucks, I don't know what Ebay could do about it. They aren't a police force, so their investigations wouldn't be admissable in any form, and obviously they don't have the resources to hire the real police whenever someone complained of fraud, so they're more or less helpless to prove it. As much I would LOVE to see the policy of "If Seller A takes Buyer A's money and doesn't deliver the product, we'll take that amount of money from Seller A's credit card and give it to Buyer A" I know it could never work, because for every honest case of fraud, you would the people who actually got the product, and then lied and said they never did. Obviously not everyone ships using FedEx or UPS, so package tracking would be pretty hard, and downright impossible on a massive scale.
As much as it sucks, Ebay will never be able to play policeman. It's not what they do, and they don't have the time or money to do it. The best advice is just look at someone's rating and hope for the best. Another good tip is if you can find the item in the real world, or even through a site that specializes in that product, go through them. It may be a little more money, but you know it's going to get there.
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
Im surprised that story is by MSNBC considering everything M$ is instantly pulled from ebay for some reason they dig up. I have had so many legitimate M$ product auctions shut down.
THey just shut down my 2 celeron auctions because I said the bidder would have to pay the paypal CC costs if they used a CC.
They are uptight. But yes, they shut me down at the last section so I couldnt make the changes. THey must be too busy taking money to check the auctions...
In any event, yahoo auctions is the underground auction with nothing BUT fraud. I have NEVER had a fradulent auction on ebay. All 2 of my tries (to purchase) on yahoo were fradulent.
Let's put this into perspective... There are thousands of power sellers yet only a few are mentioned in the article where the evidence strongly suggests...not conclusively finds fraud occurring. EBay is no different than the For Sale section in the newspaper. If I get ripped off by some guy selling his car in the newspaper, who am I gonna sue? The guy or the Daily News?
The only liability I see is the whole Power Seller rating system. This kind of implies that EBay deems this person a good seller and thus is promoting the seller above others.
Why isn't this looked upon the same way as an ISP and someone trafficking illegal material over the Internet?
Read the articles. eBay does have the power to do something about bad sellers when evidence is presented to them. They are allegedly not always doing what they should when those bad sellers are also power sellers. You did read the articles, didn't you?
I live ze unknown. I love ze unknown. I am ze unknown.
Egg Troll never spends a lot of cash on anything on eBay. Instead we prefer to buy locally. Of course, not everyone is as blessed as Egg Troll to live in a large city.
So if you live in Peanutville, GA and need to buy something expensive, Egg Troll highly suggests you use eBay's escrow service: The seller doesn't get paid until you get the item. Egg Troll reminds you that escrow isn't perfect but its a lot better than nothing!
C - A language that combines the speed of assembly with the ease of use of assembly.
Or is MS trying to get into the online auction business, and pointed their FUD Cannon at eBay?
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
His laptop, currently open for bidding, had been up to over USD 15000 when first listed. Now we see that because "We have received numerous bids that have had to be cancelled, because we believe them to be fraudulent." that more extreme measures are being taken by the lister this time around.
In a feature last week about eBay, the Raleigh News & Observer quoted Kevin Purseglove, identified as senior director of communciations for eBay, as saying, quoting the paper, "eBay's policy is to let the buyer and seller sort out any differences among themselves. According o Purseglove, "Ebay will never evaluate the merchandise, we never receive it, we never review it, we don't ship it, we don't vouch for it."
Ebay apparently will refer you to an independent dispute resolution service if you wish.
In other words, caveat emptor.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
Ebay is a vendor, just like any other store...
No, they're a service company and they make it quite clear that the sales are not under their control. They simply put interested buyers in communication with corresponding sellers. Unfortunately, because eBay makes money from the sellers there is no real incentive for them to protect buyers. However, the vast majority of scams are pulled on greedy people who are trying to get something for nothing. As long as those people exist (and they're willing to accept the business model) eBay will have no incentive to change.
Their rating system isn't perfect, but it's decent. I've sold some stuff on Ebay and bought a couple things. I got screwed once by a seller, but I've been screwed by brick-and-mortar places, too. Such is life.
Ebay can and should cooperate and contact law enforcement agencies. Fraud is illegal. Really, it is.
Just take the stamps, for example. The criminal penalties of messing with the US Post Office are insane! Don't suspend people, just drop a note to the feds. Yes, the feds... E-Bay is interstate commerce, so it's easy. Then, simply have ebay indicate whether a seller legitimately falls under US Federal Jurisdiction.
This is exactly what most internet commerce sites are unwilling to do. They have the impression that they have to do all the policing themselves. A large portion of the US government is devoted to consumer protection. As screwed up as I often feel the US government is, I shudder to think of big business completely running the show.
I don't spend any amount more than I am willing to loose. I don't make any purchases over $50.
I also cannot understand why on earth someone would go on eBay and spend 100's of dollars. Wake up! You are sending your money to *some guy* in God knows where, to purchase an item unseen.
If you are so desparate to get a deal on a higher priced used item, try your local paper, swap meet, hack shop. I'm pretty sure you could pick whatever high priced item you desire without taking such a risk.
I have no sympathy for someone who plop's down $500 dollars to some unknown person, for an unseen product.. based only on eBay's "feedback".
Take my money PLEASE!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
He's hunting down the people that fucked him via eBay. I'm considering the same! (not)
I wonder, do they still have that lurker guy from MSFT who hits refresh all day until he finds a sale of used MSFT software and then complains to e-Bay to have it removed?
/., aren't they?
And no, I don't think I'm off-topic. The words fraud and Microsoft are synonymous here on
btw, I hereby release this idea into the public domain, to be used freely by anybody or entity wishing to implement this kind of idea.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
If you sell the balls on e-bay... Heck if the guy could get 4 pounds of Na off e-bay, what difference would 2 measley balls do...other than set a precedent to other "illicit" sellers
Just my 2
Live for the present, learn from the past, and dream of the future!
E-bay isn't just providing a neutral marketplace, but one in which they (1) take a cut of each sale and (2) have ways for buyers to inform them of fraud. Aren't they exposing themselves to potential federal racketeering charges if they are made aware of frauds as clear as those written up by MSNBC and continue to participate in profiting from those frauds? Knowing participation in fraud is not the same thing as, say, being a landlord for a shop that turns out to accept stolen goods (like on 47th St. in Manhattan, where a bunch of diamond merchants were just busted for that - this being the center of the diamond trade in America). It's more like if the landlord took a cut of each sale, helped steer the customers to the store, while knowing the shopkeepers were fencing. And that would result in a racketeering bust. If the feds won't touch it, can the California AG use RICO? E-bay should be cleaned up or closed down. It's not like no-one else will fill the space.
"with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
I agree, I'm just saying it would be EXTREMELY difficult to enforce on a scale as large as Ebay. Another example of a website that's pretty damn Shady is IBill.Com. Roughly two months ago I was feeling a little, uh, eager, so I sign up for this pr0n site, 3 day trial. 10 seconds later my online banking statement shows a $49.99 withdrawl. So I freak, call them, and they say that for the 3 days they "hold" the money for me. After I flip out on them like a ninja for 5 minutes, they agree to cancel the subscription. Appeased, I hang up, check my account. Still there. So I go to bed, get up the next day at noonish, still gone. Call them back, they tell me it takes 15 days for the money to go back in. What kind of bullshit is this? It's an electronic transfer! They can take it out in 10 fucking seconds but putting it back in takes 2 weeks?
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
I've always understood that you bid exactly what you are willing to pay for an item. With the Ebay system, the winning bid is only enough to beat the next lower bid, not your maximum bid. Unfortunately, I see people constantly upping their bids as they watch the price go higher. If a shill bidder wins, then the seller is either forced to pay Ebay's commission(I doubt they would) or contact the next lower (non-shill) bidder and try to make a deal. If this happens to you, your last bid is non-binding and you can negotiate whatever you like. It's all a psychological game and it sounds like people are crying over spilt milk. I personally figure out what I'm going to pay and then use a sniping service. This cuts down on the bidding wars.
Every so often, we put up some auctions for networking equipment. Lately there has been a trend of people bidding on Cisco auctions (see this article) and never paying.
One Ebay user bid a Cisco 3640 router I was selling up to $2550. This same user created his account two days prior, and was the high or winning bidder on over 80 auctions. Here's this user's Ebay winning bid history. Now, I'm not a mathematician, but this A-hole ruined over $64k of auctions. Sure, you can relist and file fraud reports, but what's to prevent someone else from doing this again and again? There's no accountability.
If they would require some type of user verification to buy and sell, wouldn't you think twice about fraud? Furthermore, why can't Ebay red-flag suspicious bidding patterns? I think everyone agrees that a new user probably will not bid on over 80 auctions worth over $64k in a couple of days.
Just my 2.47 yen.
What would you have them do? Open a federal investigation everytime some kid screws another kid out of a Transformer?
Finally, math books without any of that base 6 crap in them.
I know that to some it sounds silly to consider an escrow service, but IMO it's the safest way to do business with someone online... especially when that person is as anonymous as ebay allows.
Another option is to limit your bids on high priced items to local sellers. I'm a bass player and purchased a $1200 bass guitar amp from a person on ebay. The only reason I went for such a deal was because the seller lives about 15 minutes from me and agreed to make the exchange in person. I would have never gone for such an expensive deal had the seller lived beyond driving range.
The bottom line? Make sure you are 100% protected before you submit your payment. It's a shitty rule in life, but when it comes down to it... buyer beware.
--
[McP]KAAOS
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
I've bid on (and won) several things on ebay, and every single time, without fail, there is obvious shill bidding. I mean, do real people really bid $99.04 for an item? It's obvious that they are just checking to see if you've set your limit to $100. Especially when you see that the same bidder has bid on all of the seller's auctions but yet never seems to win..
I'd guess that shill bidding happens in nearly every auction, and while its illegal, its too much trouble to try to fight it. Instead I just make sure that I never bid more than I'm willing to pay in the first place, since it's a given that I will pay whatever I bid. For this same reason, I never bid more than 75% of what I consider a "reasonable price" for an item, thus giving myself a 25% pad for the other types of fraud that might occur.
-TomK
Works for the RIAA.
If you've identified copywritten software on their site, that they are listing on a central server in this country, and they're willing to let that listing stand, *AND* make a profit off of the listing...
They just fascilitated copyright infringement. Works for the RIAA - could work for you.
Oh, and every CD they've allowed to be sold is an additional instance of fascillitation.
Now, get together with a couple other software developers in your boat and file a class action just to make sure your lawyers are motivated enough to take on ebay's lawyers.
paintball
Irregardless of eBay's fraud issues, I take exception at the sincerity of this article.
Let's see.. an article on MSNBC.com (read Microsoft) about fraud horrors on eBay with no comparative analysis on how eBay stands up to the other major online houses with regards to fraud.
The "Advertising" gadget on the article's page has a link to MSN's (read Microsoft) auction partner uBid.
Sounds like FUD with a splash of advertising to me.
Speak truth to power.
I had a perfect example of this.
A couple weeks ago I bought an older HP printer of eBay, the seller didn't return my calls or emails, after I sent him the money, and was doing the same for a couple other people who had bought products from him. Well I filed a fraud complaint with PayPal, and they put the money on hold along with his PayPal account. This got the guys attention, so he called me, saying he would send the item only if I dropped the compaint, I told him I would only drop the compaint once I saw the item. In communicating with the guy I found he had at least a couple other eBay id's he was doing the same with (fake auctions), so I tried to contact eBay to let them know. I was refered to some consumer groups and webpages and such, I had a list of the ID's the guys was using and some background, statements from other people who were defrauded, and the guys location (or at least the one the number went back to that I was called on), along with the various aliases the guy was using. Just boggles my mind that they would ignore this.
eBay has been exceptionally bad about honesty, historically. There's plenty of stories about their change to "we can spam you if we want" policies, and they didn't do a very good job of actually stopping spamming people who closed their accounts... I closed my account and got spam from them months later, despite multiple discussions with their official staff spin doctor about how I was closing my account because of the spam. His response? He claimed that "your account was closed back when you closed it, but we thought you'd like to know about the updates to our policies". Never mind that I'd just verified that, indeed, they'd kept my account active and flagged it for everything from spam to telemarketing. To the best of my knowledge, the man's official job is "lie to problems until they go away".
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
I'm a regular eBay buyer. I buy gem material, and ancient coins. I'd been having pretty good luck for the past three years, only getting a few items that were, arguably, not as good as described. However, in the last 6 months, things have changed, possibly due to the economy going sour.
I've seen the "shipping and handling" charges skyrocket, from about $3 on average before to over $5 now, sometimes hitting over $10 for something that could be sent UPS for $3. I've bought stuff that was mis-identified, and had a biatch of a time trying to get a dime back from the sellers. I've even had flat-out fraud - one seller took my money, and that of several other people, then voluntarily suspended his registration, so I cannot even warn future (like, six months from now) victims.
EBay used to provide a service, "Safe Harbour", to help mediate in these affairs. Recently, however, the FAQ on what to do about fraud has changed, and it's now totally out of eBay's hands. I've tried calling the seller who took my money and ran, to no avail. It's been consistantly either busy, or no answer. I did a reverse-lookup on the phone number, and it doesn't even belong to the seller.
I'm just out the $20, I guess. EBay doesn't care. PayPal doesn't care. And, as long as people can get a new email account from Hotmail and Yahoo, they'll be able to do this. And, as long as the per-person bit is small, fraudsters will continue getting away with it.
I no longer feel safe unless I'm buying from a seller with ***lots*** of feedback. Perhaps one way eBay could help prevent this sort of fraud would be to require a real email account, not some cheesy Web-based freebie. Perhaps they need to verify address information - make registration cost a dollar, then snail-mail them a temporary password. However, though either approach would help deter fraudsters, both would cut down on eBay's revenue while increasing their costs, so I really don't see it changing soon. What may help force the change is if more buyers just stopped buying things. When eBay's bottom line begins to suffer, *then* we'll see a real change take place. Until then, caveat emptor.
Lemon curry?
I've purchased many, many items on ebay. I have also sold several items on ebay. I've had one bad experience with each side.
:-(
Buying - I ordered some of those 'breast enlargement pills' for my girlfriend. It's not something I wanted for her, but she was planning to buy some of the more expensive ones from a TV advertisement and I told her we could save money by using ebay. I ordered four bottles (to get the free shipping offered) and was told I would have them within 3 business days. Two weeks later, still no pills. I wrote several times and called and left phone messages. I eventually got an e-mail stating that they had been shipped to the wrong address and a new shipment was being sent out and that I would be receiving 6 bottles instead of the 4 I had paid for. One and a half weeks later they still hadn't arrived, and I left negative feedback for that seller. In less than 2 hours after posting the feedback, the seller used PayPal to refund my money. I then turned around and ordered the same pills from a different vendor, my girlfriend used them for a couple of weeks and said that they were making her fat and so she threw them out.
Selling - I had an old Sega Genesis system and about 20 games for it that I never used any more. Posted it for sale, one guy kept bidding and rebidding and drove the price up high, won the auction and then never sent any money and never responded to e-mail. Within one week, his feedback dropped from around +10 to -5, so it was obvious that someone was abusing that account, no way of knowing if it was the true owner or not. I notified ebay and was allowed to re-run the auction a second time for no additional cost and ended up selling it to a legitimate buyer for about $20 less than what the first auction closed for.
Since I first started using ebay, I have purchased 3 computers (all the same), 3 digital cameras (all different), a digital camcorder, jewelry, perfume, children's toys, software, hardware, flashlights, those glow-chemical bracelets, lockpicks, magic tricks, universal remote controls, more stuff than I can even remember, and those are the only two incidents I've ever had.
I don't think using ebay is any more unsafe than most other forms of shopping, I'd worry more about buying/selling stuff through a newspaper classified ad, because you never know what's going to happen when you get to the other person's house, or worse yet, when they come to your home.
As a side note, my two greatest ebay deals involved Bob & Tom albums. I had a fairly complete set of their CD's, a total of 17 discs, one autographed, and one autographed poster. I sold the entire collection for $420 cash to someone living in the same town. A year later in the back of my closet I found a copy of Bob and Tom, A Day At the Race, a very limited edition cassette (only 500 copies made) that I listed and sold for $450... not bad considering I'd only paid $10 for it when it was new, which wasn't all that long ago...
A computer once beat me at chess, but it was no match for me at kick boxing -- Emo Phillips
Apparently it's time for this to be implemented on a wide scale.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
I love it when people try to insult me and make spelling mistakes. Obviously you aren't a genius either.
Ass.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
All this tells me that you must become a Power Seller to continue to rip off peolple without getting in trouble. Since most people do their payments (under $60) with paypal(ebay owned), there is a good chance they will never see their money back again.
NO! NO! Please don't mod me, I'm too young to die a troll. *click* Oh the pain, the pain...
You can still get burned by fake escrow sites.
Read this article on msnbc.
Fake escrow sites lure auction users.
Ebay is advertising for a Risk Analyst; it must be the tight labor market that's keeping them from filling this position.
---- "If we have to go on with these damned quantum jumps, then I'm sorry that I ever got involved" - Erwin Schrodinger
Sure didn't stop them from sending me a cease and desist over acbay.net! I think they need to have their legal department look into more valuable things like these Fraud auctions...not my site that has nothing to do with them!
Unstable Apps: Our Android Apps Don't Suck
But isnt every Ebay'er eventually doing it?
Fraud is part of Ebay's culture, just some people take it to extremes more than others.
Anyone who uses ebay for more than 3 months knows about sniping, then they sign up to auctionstealer or other sniping site to join the fun. Then they snipe on the newbies and give them a start on the bitterness ladder. Okay it's not Fraud but it starts people thinking of ways to 'beat the system'. Anger leads to hate, etc...
Others start selling becuase their co-workers are selling. Before you know it, they are shill-biding on each others auctions once they see someone biding passionately and wildly. Its common practice.
Then there are other sellers that take poetic license and describe goods using vague but attractive terminology, 'virtually new', or 'must be seen' to be believed. They know that some gullible people are afraid to leave negative feedback, because a evil seller will retort with the same. (Oh, the shame of having a minus on your record!)
Most people who use Ebay for long enough, learn the tricks of the trade. It polices itself, which implies Fraud must be committed before it can be reported.
You can only prevent fraud by controlling auctions tightly, then the whole 'neighbourhood policing' aspect of the software goes away, which is worth more to Ebay in goodwill than losing a few customers over fraud.
I'm filling out the credit card dispute form right now. The guy never delivered or returned my money.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Thanks, but that wasn't my intent. I was merely expressing a bit of surprise that something, which seemed obvious to me as a solution to this problem, wasn't widely available to ebayers.
That an idea is obvious apparently isn't grounds for it not being patentable. This is why I followed my original post with the other.
Congratulations, you've just joined a growing list of people who have trouble understanding sarcasm.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
same here, I always bid something odd, like 25.67 or some such, just to beat out whomever may try and bid at 25.50
Thanks to file sharing, I purchase more CDs
Thanks to the RIAA, I buy them used...
Fraud is one of those things that get worse when not addressed. The deal is that someone figures out how to pull off a fraud. They tell the other dudes in the dorm. Voila, thirty people pulling the same scam.
I've been with companies and watched how the fraud works it way through the system. There will generally be one or two players trying different combos to hack the system. When they get a scheme that works, they broadcast it to their buddies, and you instantly have a thousand duplicates.
I've actually seen people posting fraud recipes on forums. The folks out pulling ebay fraud are probably bragging about it, and bringing in more perps.
Although corporate America doesn't give a c^#% about customers, fraud generally rises to a point where it shows up big time on a marketer's precious little excel spreadsheet.
As for the end user being able to bring things to small claims court. Well, small claims courts kind of fall apart when you deal with Interstate traffic.
"Which makes your position even worse, when even someone who is stupid enough to spell incorrectly can see how obviously uninformed you are."
LOL, um... really.. you're burying yourself... you'd do better to stop now before digging anymore. I'll be nice and not toss that statement back at you.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
I bid on stuff I want on Ebay. No big deal. I pay ... or you could B l o w M e.
universally with a US Postal Money order. If the fool will not take one, the fool gets none of my money. You have the Federal government behind you if they screw you. Wire Fraud statutes apply.
I have never had trouble from sellers, I tend to know what I am bidding on and what the relative value is. If you are a fool, you and your money will soon be parted. Caveat Emptor.
It's normal that a company will be nice to the users who give them the most ammount of money while screwing everybody else.
Personally, I've never been defrauded on ebay and this is how I do it.
Firstly, If its a big purchase (like 500 bucks or more) I tell the seller to send it to me COD but to only specify bank checks, not personal checks. This keeps everybody honest. In all cases, I offer to pay the added expense and have the seller just tack it onto the total cost.
If I'm selling something and the person wants to do it COD, the only way I do it is bank check. I've had people call me up and complain loudly how the person came to the door but wouldn't give them the package because they had a personal check. It's that old saying "Locks keep honest people honest"
Now for smaller things, I'm confortable with paypal, provided that the person is "verified."
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
I always find it a good laugh to see people paying MORE (or the same) for items on ebay (in some cases used items) then it would cost to go to the local Best Buy or CompUSA and plop down the cash for -- and get to enjoy instantlly. You go the Ebay route and it is just like Russian Roullette. You not only pay megabucks + shipping, you are not even sure when and if you will get the item. And if you do get the item -- it may not be as advertised. I had a friend who saved 40 bucks on a robotic lawnmower. The only problem is, when he got it, it was 3 firmware releases behind and had recalled tires. Since he did not purchase it from the company, he had to pony up over 100 bucks for firmaware upgrades and new tires. The company never would have sold him such an outdated item.
(+1 Funny) only if I laugh out loud.
I'll admit I was a little peeved at the number of people willing to flame without giving my post a bit more thought or joining in with some useful comments. Include with this thought an expression of annoyance at the increasing abuse of moderation on Slashdot.
Change my original post title to "automated escrow agent"; at the time I couldn't remember the proper word-- this was the intent.
I think this kind of a system should be possible, widely available and mandatory.
Anyways, the penalty system would start off simply, as soon as a deal doesn't close past a set time, the automated escrow agent begins to levy fines on both parties. There would be different levels in the system finishing by human intervention. Larger sums would mean quicker human intervention.
bah... it's just an idea, I thought it would be interesting to discuss it. Apparently people are more interested in flaming.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
Don't mean to burst your bubble, but how often do you read MSNBC.com? There are often stories blasting Microsoft or alerting to its problems.
MSNBC is a joint venture between NBC and MS, but it's mainly just a news site with ties to both, but independent.
There are also many derogatory stories about GE on there, the parent company of NBC.
It's still a respectable news site until they start ignoring GE and MS problems.
Human nature is the same everywhere; the modes only are different. -- Earl of Chesterfield
Thank-you! I don't know why your comment wasn't modded up -- but I suppose it's still the minority view here for some twisted reason.
The fact is, eBay shouldn't be held responsible for the actions of the users, any more than the local grocery store should be held liable if people post fraudulent sales on their cork boards near the entrances.
If eBay isn't even bothering to cancel/disable accounts after multiple frauds are reported, well - that's irresponsible on their part. But honestly, I don't think that's the crux of the issue. I *often* see accounts that are suspended, when I look back through user info on bidders of my old auctions who had negative feedback.
More than anything, this is a case of "kill the messenger" - because people get angry when they're ripped off, and look for someone to point the finger at. It's easier to pick on eBay (who has lots of $'s) than it is to hunt down and prosecute the person who actually scammed you.
Escrow services for eBay-type transactions already exist. One that comes to mind is Tradenable, and htere are others too. So they're out there if you want to use them. eBay doesn't have their very own, but I predict they will before too long. The fees could generate too much money to ignore, especially if the service were integrated into eBay's website, like Paypal now is.
When I read the article, what do I find but that for 3 out of 4 (re)loads of the page I end up with an ad for Microsoft shopping. To add insult to injury, the "Resource Guide" next to the ads suggest Auctions at uBid.
While this may just be a coincidence, it seems far too blatent for my liking.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
There is no way you will ever get rid of the phantom bidders.
Most power sellers probably do not use phantom bidders. They probably have a network of people that are in the same business as them bid on the items. I have known several different instances of this, especially in collectibles.
I bid up your collectibles, and you bid up mine. If we win the auction, we just don't worry about it. If the item is worth enough, the vig to EBay is just paid, and the item is re-auctioned later, of it isn't worth paying the vig on, you wait several days, complain to EBay that the buyer never sent you a check, and offer it to the second highest bidder.
This type of thing is next to impossible to prove, and only gets harder as the web of associates gets bigger. That is why collusion is illegal, and you never hear about it. It happens all the time, but it is hard to catch, and harder to prove.
Indeed, and thanks for the thoughtful comment.
Regarding the fining of both parties, my thought leaned towards handling situations where there is disagreement on the content of a transaction. i.e. the receiver refuses to accept something, claiming it wasn't what the auction described. I feel that by placing the burden to resolve the situation on both parties, by using the threat of mutual fines, the system would better ensure quicker resolution of differences. In order to handle your scenario I think this system could be adjusted so that fining for the buyer would only begin once delivery of the item had been confirmed by a shipping company.
I really like your idea of tying the delivery of items to traceable shipping venues-- at the very least registered mail. This wouldn't work well for less tangible transactions, such as those involving 'virtual property' (MMORPGs), but would work well for most transactions on ebay I think.
In the end, what I think ebay needs work a lot harder to discourage the type of fraud this system would help strongly in: obvious fraudulent exchanges for low money.
Do not spread "09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0" over the internet, thank you.
The difference is that Microsoft does the legwork, not eBay. Microsoft's piracy department has an agreement with eBay to yank auctions that it feels violates the EULA or some law. I know, I have had to deal with them -- not eBay on this issue (try selling a Microsoft [anything] CD without the original box and EULA).
Click here or here.
Funny you mention this. A doctor friend of mine was shown eBay and after the first night won auctions totalling over $40,000. He purchased everything just fine. His feedback right now is 12; not high, but has no negatives and his account is only three months old.
Another person I know had never used eBay and bought a car the first (and only) time he used eBay.
Go figure!
Click here or here.
...is excellent for finding obscure not-really-collectible but interesting things. I've picked up a few pieces of old musical equipment there for cheap that I'd never seen for sale locally simply because there aren't many of them left and they aren't popular.
I've never had problems with this kind of merchandise, or the occassional cheap DVD/videotape/game.
However, I am constantly amazed by how willing they are to turn a blind eye to piracy of any kind. If you want a laugh, try finding an auction for a bootleg CDR full of ROM images for videogames, and notifying their investigations department. 99 times out of 100, you will receive a response that eBay has no way to know for sure if the seller doesn't really own the copyrights to all 5000 of those games.
The last time I checked, they had a rule against selling anything on CDR media, but as long as the seller calls it a CD (even if they have a photo with an obviously CD-Stomper-applied label), eBay doesn't care.
It's the same for VHS bootlegs. About a month ago I went looking for a British DVD that isn't available in the US. Along with the legit listings, I saw the same thing on NTSC VHS. I checked the auction, and it was obviously a basement pirate copy ("does not include cover art," "unlabelled tape," etc.). In addition, there were about thirty negative/neutral feedback comments along the lines of "crappy bootleg copy." I sent an email to their investigations department, and there was no action taken.
I can understand students and so forth copying things because they literally do not have the money to purchase them (it's not a *good* thing to do, but I understand the motivation behind it), but people *making money* off of it (particularly selling bootleg material to unsuspecting buyers) really grates on my nerves, especially since eBay could put a stop to it (and appear more legitimate in the end) if they would tell their investigations team to use a bit of common sense when they get a complaint.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
I have two comments regarding phantom bidding:
1) You can only be bid up however much you put in that you were willing to pay. I put in one number (sniping is for idiots), and even if the price gets driven up near that number I was obviosuly willing to pay that amount. Only one time did I suspect a phantom bidder driving my price up (without crossing the line), but it could have been a real person who wanted what I was bidding on almost as badly as myself...
2) However, if ever the bidding goes ABOVE whatever price I put in than I simply will not pay for the item if the higher bid is dropped. Too bad, I tell the seller, I already bought another item just like it after I was outbid. Sure they could leave you negative feedback, but then again YOU can leave negative feedback warning about "phantom bidding" under that account which will put and end to whatever game they are playing for savvy bidders, and scaring off other bidders. I haven't got a negative comment the last two times I put that rule into effect.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Someone very close to me works for eBay on the fraud investigations team. He says that "power sellers" who make over some $ amount per month for eBay... "will be warned and warned but nothing ever really gets done."
Just like so many profit models, they won't mess with the source of cash, the sellers on eBay.
I never tried buying music CDs on eBay, but I do know for a fact there are quite a few DVD movies up there that are in a "grey area".
For example, do a search for the collections of all the season episodes of the X-Files TV shows on DVD. You may find a few US editions, but you'll also see many cheaper ones that are imports. They seem to be counterfeits, but they may just be cheaper quality, yet still legal for sale in the country of origin, versions. I couldn't determine for sure. (They did seem to be packaged in authentic packaging.)
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I auctioned off a web server on eBay, fetching a high bid of about $1,100. The high bidder promptly contacted me and submitted payment via eBay Payments (aka BillPoint).
The buyer also asked me to ship the server via overnight Saturday-delivery FedEx, using his account number. This is a huge "red flag" for fraud -- only the account holder can get proof of delivery, and the account holder can ask to redirect the delivery location. When somebody says that rush shipping costs are not important, shippers should worry that the buyer's primary goal is to get the product in hand before they are "discovered" (e.g. fraudulent credit card payment).
Since I was suspicious, I checked the online payment information carefully, and was surprised to find that my payment record reflected the occurrence of a "bypassing event" on the same day payment instructions were submitted. That sounds pretty bad -- like maybe it's a dispute or other problem that will cause the payment to be reversed (my bank confirmed that a transfer was initiated but had not yet been completed, whatever that meant).
So I called eBay, and got run around in circles before being allowed to leave a phone message (I left several messages, none of which were ever returned). And I sent email to the official eBay Payments (BillPoint) support addresses, and got autoreplies promising a response within 24 to 48 hours. After trying several strategies, I called the buyer, disclosed my concerns, and advised him that I could not ship the server until eBay Payments (BillPoint) confirmed that the payment was complete and that the "bypassing event" was not a reversal. He said he understood.
Over the course of the next two weeks, eBay responded to each email I sent, about 48 hours after I sent it, but although they quoted back my question to me, they would not answer or even discuss the issue of what is a "bypassing event." I suspect my responses were coming from a collection of boilerplate replies. Each time I received a reply, I wrote back, repeating the single question, "What is a bypassing event," and citing my transaction number and other data. Each time, they replied after 48 hours without answering the question.
Finally, after two weeks, I confirmed with my bank that the funds had been transferred and they could find no record of any attempt to cancel or reverse the transaction -- and so I shipped the server to the fellow via FedEx Express Saver (3-day delivery), using his FedEx number.
The next day (after the server was already in transit), eBay Payments finally wrote back answering my repeated question: they informed me that a "bypassing event" simply reflected that the buyer had forgotten his BillPoint password and had manually re-entered his credit card payment information.
I have closed my eBay Payments (BillPoint) account, and I will not accept payment through their payments scheme, ever again. Since eBay has acquired PayPal, I will also cease accepting PayPal as a payment method, since I assume the same inept customer service will apply there, too.
-- http://www.MarkWelch.com/ Pleasanton California
Ripped me off a couple of months ago.
Mike Carlson
6781 Apsen Rd
Lisle, IL 60532
If any of you Slashdotters are in the area...
-----
PGP Key ID 0xCB8FF658
What goes around comes around. I tried to purchase it as a VCD because it's not available as a DVD, but sure enough that will be the last time I make that mistake.
I guess I'll have to buy legit copies of the VHS versions and make my own VCDs for personal use. That's legit right?
I think that VCD contained two episodes that aren't even released on VHS.
The man who trades freedom for security does not deserve nor will he ever receive either. - Benjamin Franklin
Anyone expecting Phantom bidding not to exist in every auction on this planet needs their head read.
It's a fact of like, its normal, you expect. Just don't bid more than you're willing to spend.
Really laws against phantom bidding are like laws against insider trading, they show no basis of reality.
about 1 1/2 months ago i purchased some software for a client's digital audio workstation.
;)
unfortunately, when it arrived it turned out to be warez.
so, i contacted the seller to tell him the warez wasn't going to work for me, and that i needed the $110 refunded. he didn't like that much, and said i was being a jerk. that's when i realized there wasn't going to be any reasoning with him (not that that was a huge surprise).
i tried contacting ebay a number of times, but they would never get back to me. so much for help from them.
the seller lives in Miami. unfortunately, i live on the other side of the country. anyone in Miami want to do me the favor of going to this guy's house and and getting me some collateral worth at least $110? i'll pay you half of the $110 for the job. contact me for the seller's address.
really, what other choices do i have?
Some tips I wrote up for someone else who got ripped off on ebay -- this applies mainly to computer hardware, but the principles can be adapted to any type of merchandise.
I've spent a LOT of time digging around for hardware (and other stuff) on Ebay, following various auctions and dealers, and have read a lot in and asked around in many of the user forums there, and have reached several conclusions
about sellers:
ALWAYS read ALL of a seller's NEGATIVE feedback before bidding. (If you use ebay a lot, you may want to subscribe to http://www.vrane.com's feedback checker service.) Good vendors won't have more than 0.15% negative feedback. More than 0.3% negative feedback is a redflag; more than 1.0% is usually a bad dealer or a con artist.
Positive feedback numbers and content CAN be rigged via the "penny auctions" loophole, so positive feedback in itself is fairly useless.
ALWAYS read ALL of the "NEGATIVE FEEDBACK LEFT FOR OTHERS" *by* any seller you intend to deal with. How they respond to their own bad deals is a *VERY* good indicator of how they'll be to work with in the event that what they send you is defective or is not as represented.
Sellers who use *L00K* and/or bogus phrases in their item titles (just WTF is "emulator friendly" anyway??!) are the ebay equivalent of spammers. I no longer even view items with such titles.
ALWAYS check regular online vendor outlets, Pricewatch, etc, first. Typically, used computer hardware sold on Ebay winds up going for 150% of the new retail price, just because most people have no clue what components really sell for. (I've seen used HDs go for 300% of retail, and used memory going for TEN TIMES the local new price!!)
Sellers who start every auction with "$1.00" or "$0.01" prices are more likely to be cons than those who start with something realistic. People who sell hardware *regularly* on ebay are MORE likely to be cons than are people who only sell hardware here occasionally.
ALWAYS email the seller prior to bidding, and ask some question about the item, even if you already know the answer. The tone of the response you get can tell you plenty about how they'll be to deal with. If you get NO response, "go look it up yourself", or a CANNED response, or if they dodge any of your questions, DON'T BID.
If they take ONLY cash or money orders for computer hardware, DON'T BID.
When in doubt for ANY reason, DON'T BID.
BTW for categories other than hardware, the above all apply except that there are good sellers of other stuff who do it all the time.
(This material is public domain. It's already been posted in the ebay discussion forums, where several of the GOOD hardware dealers came out of the woodwork, and applauded the concepts.)
~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
If you use your card through paypal or a similar service, you can only get a refund from you bank if the payment service does not pay the seller the money, as that is all that they promise to do. You'll get no refund from your bank if the seller does not send the merchandise.
You 'loose' the hounds, whereas you 'lose' money.
This has been your Slashdot spelling informational video. Goodbye!
I'm a small time seller trying to make some money through fraud. I am incensed that the "Power Sellers" are allowed to commit fraud with no repercussions from eBay. Yet, the small businessman like myself is screwed out of millions of dollars of stupid buyer's money. It's favoritism! It's nepotism! It's discriminationism! It's alot of other -ism words!
[/sarcasm]
No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova
I've had phantom bidders try to get me to pay more than I bid for an item. The seller contacted me after the auction and said "Oh, I just happen to have another of these items, would you like to buy it at the winning price?"
I told him I knew he'd been phantom bidding, and he could go eat the eBay fees. If fewer eBay users were gullible idiots, phantom bidders wouldn't be such a problem--they'd end up losing money.
Having said that, there's clearly a problem in that eBay makes more money the higher the final bid--so it's in their financial interest not to act on charges of (successful) phantom bidding.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
It looks like a hair dryer. Of course, there's nothing to compare against for scale, but knowing how much is involved in getting an exhaust-driven turbocharger to work (very close tolerances, and the shaft spins at around 20,000rpm at full boost), I'd say this is just a silly toy.
Most decent engines will just chew bits of plastic up and spit out a little bit of nasty smoke, btw...