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Xandros 1.0
Mr. Smoove writes "Despite the quick-off-the-mark review from Newsforge this morning, the Xandros 1.0 desktop is finally here! No free download so you'll have to shell out US$99 for it but you do get an enhanced (?) version of KDE 2.2 and built-in Cross-Over Plugin and Office! Finally a decent challenger to Lycoris and also what Lindows should have been..." There's also an interview with a Xandros executive.
What about the GPL? It seems that the only way to get the sources is by emailing feedback@xandros.com. Is that legit?
'ARRGH! Pirate Designers of the Internet, we be!'
no free downloads....that sucks.....even if they gave away a less featureful version.
and $99 for an unprooven peice of software....nope, Im not paying.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
ftp://2130706433/pub/warez/0day :-)
-M.
No thanks.
Geek used to be a four letter word. Now it's a six-figure one.
Since you aren't entitled to the sources unless you obtain the binaries legit, then what is the problem? The GPL doesnt say anything about giving the sources out free to everyone. It says if you give out a binary to someone, that person is also entitled to the soruces free of charge. (ie, email them and they will be required to send it to you)
/. a hundred times.
If someone buys the $99 dollar copy, then posts the binaries and sources on his website for free download, that would be fine, but so far, nobody has done that, so you must pay $99 dollars if you want it. GPL isn't free beer.
Go read the GPL, this question has been answered on
Two infinite things: your stupidity and mine. But I'm not sure about the latter. If my sig offends you, I'm sorry.
Sweet.
I wonder how many jackasses will try that....
Is this a viable alternative to anything? Seriously, I can't believe they don't offer some sort of free trial version. I don't understand how companies expect they will ever gain traction in the marketplace when they don't do something substantially better. Incremental improvements, if that is what they are in this case, are not enough. Sure, I admit it, I haven't used the product. But what is my incentive? Why should I shell out $99? Based on a review? No chance of that. Not when I can get something almost as good for free. Or, not when I don't see a major improvement for making the leap. Of course, I suppose you could rain on my parade by saying this is an OS so the rules are different. But, I don't think that is a good argument; not when I can get an OS for free. Do I want to run Windows? OK, then I'll use Wine or maybe I'll go for Lindows. This is just my quick, early post, $0.02 and I'm probably wrong in a major away. Here are some rotten eggs to throw at me -- have a blast throwing them at me.
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" Technology Preview CD that is included with the product contains many of the most recent software releases including KDE3. "
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Ok, but correct me if I'm wrong here:
If you take a GPL'd application, make changes to it, and then release/sell it publically, you're under obligation to return those changes to the original creators of the application, no?
In which case, I'd expect Xandros to, at the very least, publish the source code to all the standard applications that they're using that are GPL'd.
'ARRGH! Pirate Designers of the Internet, we be!'
From what I understand about the GPL, you only have to make the source available. You don't have to distribute all source with all software, you just have to make it available to those that want it. so yeah, I guess it's legit.
No todo lo que es oro brilla
Big, big mistake. In fact, if they don't provide some kind of live-cd, ala SuSE, they'll completely flop. It's that simple. No one will pay for an OS that they haven't used at a friends house or can freely try it out on their own, especially when the packages are so out-of-date (all these "Windows-killers" seem to use that same outdated version of KDE). Check out the Xandros page at distrowatch and see for yourself.
LindowsOS saved itself by coming pre-installed on WalMart PC's--Xandros will have to try and pull some similar maneuvre. As I see it, there's no way in hell other *NIX users will pay for something they already have, and Windows users are skeptical of change as is ("You mean to tell me they're making this for free?" usually sets them off).
If Xandros were the best desktop distro ever, it wouldn't matter if they couldn't get people to try it, and then buy it. I hope they do in the future, because I'm actually interested in this.
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
what the cross-over plugin is, and I don't want Office. Even though 100$ is a low price for office. But as for the enhanced version of KDE 2.2, it's gotta have some crazy enhancements to make it worth paying for. KDE3 is free and suits my needs. I'll wait for a lot more people to buy it and tell me about it before I see if the enhancements are worth the cash.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
Yes, it is legal to make a GPLed project only available for pay.
The fact a product is GPLed means basically two things:
If you give someone a copy of the product, they are allowed to give it away to anyone they like, and you cannot stop them.
That's ALL. There. It's said. Now you don't have to complain about the $99 thing, right? Becuase you all get it now. So shut up. There's a nice FAQ here if you're still confused.
I'm too late by now, aren't i?
You are wrong. I am correcting you. All the GPL says is that the soucre must be available to anyone who aquires the binary via legit (through the company) channels.
'Tseems the site has all but yielded already. You can find some info at Distrowatch
Don't forget the roots, either: http://linux.corel.com/
No. You only have to give access to all source to your customers.
Of course, nothing prevents any of those customers to just set up an ftp site with all the source and binaries for anyone to get.
Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
Yes, it's good to see them stepping boldy into August of 2001 I like to have a nice 1-year buffer between me and all this durned cuttin' edge software.
This sig is xenon coated, and will glow red when in the presence of aliens
The GPL only affects programs that contain GPLed code. No doubt Xandros has many programs that are completely proprietary, and customers have no right to repost those.
Umm... I beleive your incorrect check out the gpl,
They must provide the source code on the same meduim you recieved the binaries and free of charge.
So if they sell a $99 CD with the binaries on it (ok by GPL) they must also give you the source on a CD, just via email isn't good enough.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
No. You are only obligated to make the sources available to those who receive/buy the binaries.
As a good citizen of the open source community you should feed your patched upstream but you are not required to.
Buying both Crossover Office and Crossover Plugin will set you back, in total, almost $99. KDE 2.2.2 has seen some improvements recently, many of them given back by Lycoris. I have a great way of thinking about Xandros. Think of it as a braindead simple way of getting Debian and both Crossover Office and Crossover Plugin in the bargain.
:-P At least with Lycoris' "Iris" simple software installer it costs you only $20 per seat, forever.
Of course, if Xandros is trying to pull the same Lindows crap and charge $99/year "subscription"...then screw that, I'll wait for Debian to put out 3.0 with the Progeny installer.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
you seem to mistake no litigation with no teeth.
the FSF tries to save money by trying to work with the infringing company to fix the gpl violations. if it comes down to it, the FSF tells the infringing company that it must stop using the software of face litigation. no company has tried to fight the GPL, so in ecense it does have teeth since it keeps infringers from using the product out of fear of litigation. about it holding up in court or not, I do not see why it would not....copyright give authors control over the agreement with other parties who want to use there creation....if I say you have to give this to one other person in order to use it, then you have to give it to one other person or you don't get to use it.....
very simple stuff.
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
We're not following the traditional Linux distribution approach where you've got six calculators, four text editors, three of this and two of that -- you get one of everything with us.
Thank god. This is something I wish more distros would do. Most seem to think that if I get eight different crappy ways to set up PPP, I'll be happy.
I only wish I would have thought of starting a company to sell outdated versions of free software for $99 and calling it 'enhanced'
Some people take all the good ideas.
Close but your a little off. I don't think that you could legally post the binaries on your website as the distro includes non free software(i.e. crossover)
So you would only legally be able to post the sources or binaries of stuff covered under the GPL (or another permissive license).
The GPL does not say that you have to provide the source free of charge. You are allowed to charge a fee for the production of the media, such as burning CDRs, shipping, etc.
Unfortunatly there is non-free software included in the Xandros desktop so posting all the binaries is a no no.
I'm sure it's been said before, and probaly will many times now, but seriously...KDE 2.2? While I can see the point that using older software will decrease the possibility of having to deal with bugs, does KDE 3.0 even have enough bugs to bother worrying about. I've been using it since 3.0.1 and in all versions it's seemed more stable than windows explorer.
It just seems rather a damper on the whole experience of using Linux on the desktop. Part of the fun for me was finding and playing around with the various themes, most of which are kde3 oriented now. I'd find it rather annoying to shell out that much money only to find that my system was uglier than someone who'd just downloaded theirs from the internet.
Everything will be taken away from you.
does anybody think that xandros looks a bit too much like windows? for 99 bucks, why not just buy windows? wait... you can get it for 39.99... here's the link folks: http://members.microsoft.com/partner/campaign/Winp ro2.aspx
No you're not. If the original author buys a copy (of the binary) from you, or if you otherwise make it available to them, then you must also make the source code available to them. The "original creators" are not special in this regard.
Next was the license agreement. It was one of those (quickly-becoming typical) EULAS that mention the GPL stuff and then the proprietary stuff. Interesting about this license: There was no license to read BEFORE I opened the box, no shrink wrap or seal on the package, and yet the final paragraph of the EULA states that if I don't agree with the license and haven't broken the seal on the software I can return it for a refund. Oops! Too late. Of course, this is a review copy -- perhaps yours will be shrink-wrapped with a copy of the agreement on the outside.
Sure the Mac OS theme is intriguing, but I can get my mac jollies out using Basillisk. And 99 bucks for what? Lindows with a different name? Let me download it, and we'll see. Frankly, I'm happy with my win98. When I can run Adobe software, Acid & Soundforge on linux, I'll switch. Until then, OpenBeos gets my vote for 'alternative OS'.
Use Redhat.
Sorry, but what is the point in Xandros, Lindows, Lycoris, etc?
Infact, what is the point in the millions of distros we have now, (apart from special distros for non X86 hardware, and specialised applications)?
If you're a corporate user, use Redhat
If you're an ordinary user migrating from Windows, use Mandrake, or Redhat
If you're an average geek, use Debian
If you've already got *nix experience, use Slackware
They are all freely downloadable, (although I suggest buying an official disk set - it's usually cheap anyway, and it does help the distros to keep funding themselves).
I know this could be interpreted as a troll, but it's not meant to be. We don't need 'united Linux', we don't need a lot of distributions pretending to be Windows. All that does is to confuse the end user.
When people ask me why they should switch to Linux from Windows, I usually ask them, 'Well, does Windows do everything perfectly that you want it to', 'Yes!', they usually say. I tell them to stick with Windows until they can think of something about it that they don't like. Usually within about 10 seconds they think of something. Then I show them a Linux machine, and tell them that the reason it's better, is because it's nothing like Windows. If they want to benefit from Linux's superiority, they need to invest time to learn it properly. Otherwise, they're better off just putting up with their current in-adequate system.
I already have it: KDE 3.0.4
Someone break this bs loophole by posting the sources that they are required to receive with the binaries.
You are incorrect. Look at 3b of the GPL. You can provide a written offer to provide a copy of the source code on a suitable distribution media (and the offer must be good for a minimum of 3 years) for the cost of physically providing the copy.
This is how GNU got $$ initially. RMS sold tapes with the source code to Emacs and other GNU software.
I think the catch here is that the software includes a bunch of proprietary, non-GPL software (I'm pretty sure that Crossover Office/Plugin both include some closed-source components, right?). So a person couldn't even legally post the entire distro on his website.
The first ever Ultimate Frisbee video game: here (now
All of you that want to try Xandros just email them. I would think they are smart and if people show them that they are willing to buy the stuff if they like it after testing, then they will.
Xandros, just put a live cd or include it in some crappy machines like Lindows.
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Incorrect!
GPL faq says:
Section 2 says that modified versions you distribute must be licensed to all third parties under the GPL. "All third parties" means absolutely everyone--but this does not require you to *do* anything physically for them. It only means they have a license from you, under the GPL, for your version.
Translation: If you take a GPL'd program and make modifications it and release that program you must make the modifications available to anyone who had a license to the original program or any derivative version of it!
From the Screenshots page:
The Xandros Desktop menu is steamlined with no redundant applications
Steamlined, huh? Wow ill bet thats a pretty clean desktop!!
Seriously though, I dont agree with the need for this distro (we have plenty that are nice and useable IMHO) but I would avidly defend anyone's right to make their own distro in their own vision. Yay Linux development!
from the GPL:
3. You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:
* a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
* b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,
* c) Accompany it with the information you received as to the offer to distribute corresponding source code. (This alternative is allowed only for noncommercial distribution and only if you received the program in object code or executable form with such an offer, in accord with Subsection b above.)
E-mail is fine and dandy. You can even charge costs, and you only have to do it for three years.
Yes, but this fee is limited to the physical cost. You could not charge for marketing, etc. You would only be able to charge for the media, the salary of the person(s) copying to the media,
overhead related to the copying, and probably shipping. They couldn't, for example, force you to pay for an extra manual or box, or add on any additional $$ for profit.
If it takes $3.00 to produce the cd with the source code, all things considered, then that's what they would have to charge for it.
Don't bother with the |/\|@Rez!!! Nothisng but pr0n from bobblers.com!!!
w00T!
maybe it'll kick some Redhat/SUSE/etc. asses
? Why did Microsoft get as powerful as they now are? The main reason is marketing, marketing and a fanatical devotion to bundling...yes, two reasons. Sorry, for the cheap MP reference.
Anyway, how can a company with no market penetration, no free samples etc... hope to compete with Red Hat especially, but even Suse and the other distros. I have not heard any Linux people talking about "Gosh, I can't wait to BUY Linux from that new company", "yeah, boss, it's only 3 times as much as Red hat. I hope it's good" Hmm....not a great market entry IMO.
On the other hand, not having multiple choices about how you work and what tools to use is sure helpful, *sarcasm*Linux people hate choice*sarcasm*
It's called KDE 3.1 beta 2 (OK, KDE 3.0.4 for the people that like stable software more than testing new stuff).
They gotta have done a whole lot of revamping KDE 2.2 to make it worth switching to it instead of KDE 3.1 (which will be out shortly).
Not that 2.2 is bad mind you...but the UI has made a lot of progress since 2.x....
This is always a problem with Open Source software and for-pay software: Open Source is developped too fast to compete with; the for-pay software is often too much behind to really take on..
Some people might also read this as 'Open source software never has stable (enough) API's because it's developped and changed all the time', which is also partly true, and is a problem in some cases.
Every expression is true, for a given value of 'true'
Reading over the posts, it seems many are miffed about Xandros not having a downloadable version for people to try. Apparently, the prevailing view is why buy it if you can't try it. Folks, this is so hypocritical. You see, I feel the same way about MacOS X. The only reason I would be interested in it is for the GUI, but if I can't even try that, I'm not shelling out the money so I can lock myself into their hardware. At least with Linux I can configure KDE 3 to approximate the look of OS X, and I've found I like it. But what I like best of all is that my desktop can look like Aqua, but I don't have to pay for the privilege to restrict myself to Aqua.
As for using KDE 2.2, do you think maybe the emphasis is on stability, not having the newest stuff? Doesn't Debian do the same thing too? And if you don't like the version Debian stable uses, you can upgrade. Guess what, you can upgrade Xandros too.
I await -1 troll (called posters hypocrites, mentioned Apple in non reverential tone), but I just can't get over the whining!
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
He likes to run his own systems, and I've taught him Novell and Windows over the course of about 10 years. He's now fairly capable.
I've been extolling the virtues of Linux to him for sometime now. And with this release, I'm fairly confident he can manage this release of Linux by himself, which is his goal!
As soon as the /.ing is over, he'll be buying it...
Close.
You are also paying for the associated *services* of creating the distribution. You are allowed to charge for services associated with GPL software. The charge for services business model is common for many companies that use/support GPL software.
In their case, they are not simply collecting GPL software and burning it onto a CD. They have created significant "value added" (regardless as to whether you like it or not) and they are allowed to change for it.
It's not BS, you're just an idiot, and you don't know what you're talking about. How many ISO-based distros have the sources with them? They don't have to give you the sources WITh the binaries (thus your binary only ISOs), but it's available either as a second image, or somewhere else.
Under Communism, man exploits man. Under Capitalism, it's exactly the opposite.
err, that is, under proprietary software ahhh, the hell with it, it was a weak joke anyways!
The damn web was designed for the sharing of information. Not the sharing of information only with people running the right software. Open standards now! Come on Microsoft, what are you afraid of? (ahhh, we know...)
How much of Xandros si not GPL'ed, what am I getting for $99? And what pieces of software prevents anyone for putting an ISO up for grabs (if anything at all)?
Look a monkey!
Translation: If you take a GPL'd program and make modifications it and release that program you must make the modifications available to anyone who had a license to the original program or any derivative version of it!
No. (Did you even READ what you quoted?)
"this does not require you to *do* anything physically for them. It only means they have a license from you, under the GPL, for your version"
That means "you don't have to do ANYTHING for ANYONE but those you sell to, except let them use it."
That means that when you modify something GPL'd and give it to me, you're also giving everyone else in the world permission to use it, not just me or those I directly give it to, but everyone.
You do NOT have to do anything at all for anyone, but if someone shows up with a copy of software that you distributed just once, you can't say "you aren't allowed to have that."
Besides which, the FAQ is just an FAQ--it's not the license. The GPL's FAQ could very well say "the GPL means that you can never sell your software," but unless the GPL is changed to say that, it doesn't mean anything.
Making music:
"The shipping version of Xandros has two CDs. One is the main desktop that we think is good enough and stable enough, and easy enough for people to use. The second CD is basically KDE 3, so the bleeding edge users can try it out to see what the fuss is all about. We are trying to satisfy both worlds, as opposed to just satisfying the bleeding edge.
I understand you can't download the crossover components et al but things like the kernel are supposed to be available aren't they? or, oops do they get around that by supplying a dozen cds in the box? but, then if they had a minor upgrade or patch that was downloadable wouldn't they have to have downloadable source for any GPL material?
-
take the GPL quiz, They must send you a copy, only email or only over the internet. Suitable is taken to mean by the same delivery method as you recieved the binaries, e.g. Post.
also from the FAQ's
" You're supposed to provide the source code by mail-order on a physical medium, if someone orders it. You are welcome to offer people a way to copy the corresponding source code by FTP, in addition to the mail-order option, but FTP access to the source is not sufficient to satisfy section 3 of the GPL.
When a user orders the source, you have to make sure to get the source to that user. If a particular user can conveniently get the source from you by anonymous FTP, fine--that does the job. But not every user can do such a download. The rest of the users are just as entitled to get the source code from you, which means you must be prepared to send it to them by post.
If the FTP access is convenient enough, perhaps no one will choose to mail-order a copy. If so, you will never have to ship one. But you cannot assume that.
Of course, it's easiest to just send the source with the binary in the first place. "
" "Valid for any third party" means that anyone who has the offer is entitled to take you up on it.
If you commercially distribute binaries not accompanied with source code, the GPL says you must provide a written offer to distribute the source code later. When users non-commercially redistribute the binaries they received from you, they must pass along a copy of this written offer. This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written offer.
The reason we require the offer to be valid for any third party is so that people who receive the binaries indirectly in that way can order the source code from you. "
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
They couldn't, for example, force you to pay for an extra manual or box, or add on any additional $$ for profit.
They could make it inconvenient, though. "To obtain source code, please send a written request to address X before 10/22/2005 with return postage and $X for handling and materials. Or pay $XX for our users manual and source code display right here from our website..."
Oh, and don't forget the employee's benefits, rent, electricity usage, hardware depreciation, et al... A 10-minute copy & mail job could easily get as high as $20 if it's really complex. (i.e., slow burner, problems every 1-per-100, etc.)
Thanks for the excellent bite.
HAND
It looks like I'm gonna have to stand up once again and go against the grain. I love everything I've seen on Xandros. I think the client is a great, great thing, and basing it on stable, bug-free code (KDE 2.2 instead of 3) is a very smart idea.
/. readers buying the distro: They want corporate accounts. And by the looks of it, they're going to get them.
These guys are off on the right foot. They don't want
Why? Simple. The file manager is brilliant in terms of what it does, how it looks, and how it can be incorporated with existing machines, and especially, domains. You ever wonder what Linux has been missing? Well, this is it.
Does anyone else here, especially those bitching the loudest, actually administer users? I don't know about you, but any tiny change will cause an uproar. A rollout of Mandrake, Redhat, or SuSE would cause numerous heart attacks where I work, with users complaining about everything from clutter in the menus (why are there 4 different configuration menus in Redhat? No one's really sure...) to lack of a decent resolution changer, something Xandros already has. Training is a big issue in large companies, and the more you can port from Windows to Xandros, the easier (and more compelling) a choice it will be.
OpenOffice should save companies lots of cash. It's compatible with Office 97->XP docs, and the savings on the lack of licensing on that product alone will be worth raising an eyebrow for the upper execs. Those who still need it for Outlook, Powerpoint and/or Access can keep their copies at little to no cost of what businesses are paying now, or simply buy the products seprately instead of the whole office suite. The only thing needed now is a true, open source Exchange-connecting email client (I know Evolution can use the calendars, but it costs $70 and I love Linux because 95% of it is free) and then they'll really be in high cotton.
I know everyone's balking about the cost, the GPL source tinkering, and the rest, but from a sys admin's POV, this OS has done more in one release than Redhat did in five.
Heh. "My God, an opinion! Quick, mod that man down!"
What? Get linux users to pay for GUI software?? No wonder linux distros are dying like flies.
Maybe Xandros could license RedHat branding. Lots of people (relativley) have heard of redhat. They could call it RedHat Xandros DE. Don't even change the package format or anything, just slap a redhat logo on it.
Why not fork?
The reason Linux has the market on servers and covers less than 1% of the dektop market is because consumers are computer illiterate. (Which is not their fault)
The only way for Linux to have a shot at becoming a major OS and compete with Microsoft is if it can become dummy-proof and easy to use for the average PC owner.
Xandros may not be that solution, but it's a step in the right directin to bridge the gap between linux and user-friendly needs.
It is obvious from their website that, as has been stated already, they are not marketing to you or I. This is being marketed for businesses and for individuals who are getting sick of Microsoft but need to stay compatible with its productivity software and needs everything graphical. You don't have to sell to everyone to make a profit in business.
In fact, having a niche is a strength, not a weakness. Think about the rise of the SUV. So many people liked the functionality of a truck (riding high, cargo carrying, not being tied to pavement) but many didn't want to drive a truck, either because of the look or because of less passenger room. The SUV fits the niche between the two nicely, and you can't drive 10 seconds without seeing one. Of course, some will stick with their trucks, others loyally to their cars, but the SUV makers will rake in the dough. What's $99.00 for a functional solution that is taylored to someone's needs.
I think that they will do well with this.
I doubt there will be any support for my Itex Apollo 3 internal DSL. Does anyone know if this windows compatibility will extend itself to drivers? Itexinc will only release a binary for kernal 2.4.16.
"One really, really interesting feature of Xandros is the ability to switch users mid-stream, or to have two users logged on to the same computer simultaneously, simply by selecting "Switch User" from the launch menu."
I have seen this feature in Windows XP and its really handy. Wonder if any other Linux distribution can be tweaked to do this..
If they want to sell their product to the average windows user, they should of considered a more friendly name. Xandros just sounds like something out of a space movie.
Apparently you missed the K-12 story. They're getting a "try it" MacOSX version. See even Apple gets it. Now what was your rant again?
Note that it not only says that anyone that receives the binaries is entitled to the sources, but also that he has the right to use, modify, distribute or sell them. If Xandros modified something to an open project, they can always buy a cd, demand the sources, and distribute them again.. This only holds for GPL software, of course... Apache and XFree allow people to create non-free derivatives ...
My comment was based on the comparison to OS-X. If you'll find out that there's a Linux distro proven to be on-par to OS X (or even OS-X for PC), I bet that you'd at least consider spending some $$$ for it, even $99 if well proven, right?
... all we need is something like OS-X for PC such that the average Joe would try it at home (even w/out having Office).
... I wish the Redhat's and the SuSE's of the world would push harder.
.. but if they'd offer a Linux with a Corel Draw and a Corel WordPerfect running smoothly, easy to install and configure .. then maybe I can see how some average Joe will see the light, and forget about M$ and their Office, which is children's tools as compared to something like Corel Draw at least ... still beats me why Corel doesn't seem to be more popular, it kicks Powerpoint's ass ...
But then, how comes that with all the Redhats, SuSE's, etc of the world, Linux is still in a state when "normal" Linux users don't have enough fingers to point to all the bugs/annoyances they know of
Anyways, I'm saddened to see that with so many people working on Linux, a hardware company like Apple was able in a much shorter time to set a standard for all the Linux distro's out there to aspire to
And to finish -- I agree with you on the poor marketing skills of the people at Xandros
..that they are putting non-free software in with the free software and restricting usage of the non-free software. This means that you cannot buy the software and redistribute it... you can only redistribute the free software that is included in their distribution, and I'm sure that they have made it so that it is not a working product sans the non-free software.
This is the business model for UnitedLinux, so you best get used to it. The days of freely copying linux CDs are numbered. Per seat licensing, here we come!
Use Gentoo or Debian. It's the only way to protect your freedom.
"To make a mistake is only human; to persist in a mistake is idiotic." Cicero
from the FAQ's
" You're supposed to provide the source code by mail-order on a physical medium, if someone orders it. You are welcome to offer people a way to copy the corresponding source code by FTP, in addition to the mail-order option, but FTP access to the source is not sufficient to satisfy section 3 of the GPL.
When a user orders the source, you have to make sure to get the source to that user. If a particular user can conveniently get the source from you by anonymous FTP, fine--that does the job. But not every user can do such a download. The rest of the users are just as entitled to get the source code from you, which means you must be prepared to send it to them by post.
If the FTP access is convenient enough, perhaps no one will choose to mail-order a copy. If so, you will never have to ship one. But you cannot assume that.
Of course, it's easiest to just send the source with the binary in the first place. "
" "Valid for any third party" means that anyone who has the offer is entitled to take you up on it.
If you commercially distribute binaries not accompanied with source code, the GPL says you must provide a written offer to distribute the source code later. When users non-commercially redistribute the binaries they received from you, they must pass along a copy of this written offer. This means that people who did not get the binaries directly from you can still receive copies of the source code, along with the written offer.
The reason we require the offer to be valid for any third party is so that people who receive the binaries indirectly in that way can order the source code from you. "
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Translation: If you take a GPL'd program and make modifications it and release that program you must make the modifications available to anyone who had a license to the original program or any derivative version of it!
Read the FAQ again -- it explicitly says that you do NOT have to do anything. You don't have to make the modifications available to anyone; you just have to permit them to use your modifications, if they should happen to get their hands on them.
The only people who have a *right* under the GPL to get their hands on your modifications are the ones you give the modified software to.
This doesn't matter. Odds are almost 100% that Xandros has already released all their modifications as patches. The main reason they're not giving it away is that they're heavily integrated with non-GPL, and in fact non-free software. They couldn't give that away if they wanted to, and they shouldn't.
-Billy
Hmm..
My time is $100/hr , so if it takes 10 minutes to open the letter, extract the name, mailing address and such, then another 10 to burn the CD and another 10 to drive to the Post office to mail it then add in the costs of packaging and postage and the CD + state tax, $75 would be a reasonable cost.
FTP servers arent free either, the machine, the admin time, the T1 all cost money. It's a little harder to determine costs there, If one person a year wants source, then its gonna cost about $10k,
if 1000's want it, then $10, if millions, then I need a T3 and a rack of servers, so the cost may still be $10 or more..
Of course the GPL allows someone else to get a copy of the source and provide it for free, and that would be fine with me, saves me the time and money, and I can work(bill$$) on more interesting things.
Starman97@Gmail.com (bring it on spammers)
I think that's why the FSF doesn't consider Apple's open source license as a Free Software license, becasue you are required to send changes back to teh original creator.
Microsoft gives copies of Windows out at colleges. Does that mean you or I can try Windows for free whenever we choose? Now, what was your pithy comment?
If thou see a fair woman pay court to her, for thus thou wilt obtain love
Ugh. At least get a version of Windows that has real protected memory and that won't crash as often. Windows XP Home is $89 and will outperform Windows 98 on pretty much everything. (Boots in 6 seconds on a Celeron 1.1, too.) If you're averse to the XP line, try Windows 2000 -- it has the same performance and stability enhancements.
Seriously, I can't believe anyone would actually put "Win98" and "happy" in the same sentence. I hated the 9x line, but 2000 and XP have been nothing but rock-solid. They're actually fun to use, and they don't crash. I don't think you'll be sorry for trying them.
your 'time' is your fault not your costs.Time/costs caused by others cannot be helped, so they are chargable.
The only people who have a *right* under the GPL to get their hands on your modifications are the ones you give the modified software to.
And the ones they gave the modified software to, and so on. This is why the GNU GPL requires commercial redistributors to make the source code available "to any third party" if they don't include the source code with the binaries.
Will I retire or break 10K?
I just heard some sad news on talk radio - habitual crapflooder Anonymous Coward (myself) was found dead in his Silicon Valley home this morning. Apparently, a freak goatse man dumped three feet of poo on the roof of my house, which caused it to collapse and crush him while he was writing my new crapflood: "S L A S H C R A P P O S T S W A N T TO be wide!" I'm sure I'll miss myself by the Slashdot community - even if you didn't enjoy my work, his contribution to generations of troll crapflooders. Truly an American widget/icon.
Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
[From a review]
"Xandros Monitor Control Panel Other changes include the context desktop menu, which is now simplified and pretty nice, I must say (see screenshot). Also, the "About KDE" is not there anymore on the KDE applications, but there is an "About Xandros" in place (which includes the KDE credits in one of the tabs)."
So were are the crowds of angry KDE developers?
Oh right, they're still mulling around outside the RH camp.
Lots, it's /.'d!
Sometimes this site is just tooooo funny!
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
The FAQ is meaningless, since their non-license restrictions won't hold up in court.
but I'll never know. Quite simply, I won't pay $99 just to try out a new distro. In my experience each new Linux distro is a crapshoot. Some are good, and some are bad. All of them, however, have been deficient enough in one or more areas that I cannot make it my primary desktop OS (this is from my personal experiences, not an anti-Linux bias... no flames please). A hundred bucks is a pretty high price just to identify Xandros's weaknesses. So until the price comes down or they release a SUSE-like "live evaluation" CD, Xandros will not be part of my bi-annual "let's see if Linux is ready for me yet" tests.
I should imagine that leagal advise was taken when writing the license so that answeres in the FAQ hold true.
e.g. My ISP will tell me about changes to my contract via email.
so I would assume that
1: I can inform them about changes via email
2: If they remove my email account, or I am unable to use the service then they will notify me of contract changes in a method I medium I can receive.
Wow, what a bunch of self-absorbed bittler little motherfuckers you all are. If they make money, then they make money, and you're all wrong. If they don't, they go under, like every other open source company, and move on to something else.
"Huh huh they are so stoopid KDE 2.1 is liek from 1995 LOLLL! Why dont tehy put in bugridden KDE 3.3.33.99.4912391-AC-BMX that was built 15.6 seconds ago!?!!?"
"Who wants Linux to look like Windows? Ewwww!!! Bill gatees is teh ghey b/c he can buy fancy pants cars but I have to eat ramen while working on GUHNOME!"
"LOL I HAVE TO PAY MONEY THEY R TEH SUX0R LOL"
Why you bitter little cunts raging against the machine have to complain about the fact that it's KDE 2.2 and that it costs a measly $99 is beyond me. They obviously don't expect your business anyway, since none of you ever pay for anything you can steal in the name of "Freedom".
"boo napster dyed they r restricing r feedum. i liek communism. RMS is OMGSOHOT"
More than anything else, it sickens me how you've all bastardized such an important word.
That would be Evil Otto of Berzerk. YAAD. HTH. HAND!
Yeah but no.
All colleges charge tuition and pay some of that to MS in order for students to get "cheap" MS products.
Huge diffrence.
I don't ilke the idea of such a commercial-centric distrobution. Even RedHat, a commericial company, offers their distros for free. For one, there is little or no cost savings over Windows. Also, a distrobution so heavily reliant on a commercial company, they have a habit of going under quite a bit.
What is this distro really? And how does it compare to Corel Linux 1.2/Second Edition? What have they removed/replaced and what have they added? I have established the following so far:
- CrossOver Office and Plugin are installed but the versions supplied are NOT supported by Codeweavers
- Non-destructive (will you backup?) NTFS partition resizing is in as part of the install, and that I must say is a great innovation!
- OpenOffice is present
- It's basically Debian Woody at heart
- It seems the Corel File Manager and Samba integration suite are still alive and kicking
- The Corel X control panel seems to have gained multi-monitor support!
- They've gained a switch user function like WinXP
- Extended hardware autodetection including drivers for WinModems!
- They've put back in a text installer!!!!! No more you can't install if your video card brings down the installation system.
- Xfree86 4.2! Not the debian 4.1. I wonder if this is a homebrew or the test debian packages from X-Strike-Force (presume homebrew).
Right what has anyone else figured out, or even better does anyone out there have Corel Linux 1.2/SE AND Xandros 1.0 to compare and contrast? Some specific interesting (to me anyway) questions would be?- Can it play DVD's
- Does it do anything to prevent you using official debian apt sources (libc or
...)
- If this is really "A system that is complete and functional as soon as you finish installing" does it still gracefully handle the power of dpkg/apt through XandrosUpdate?
- What java suite do they use and how is it packaged and what licence is it under?
- How compatible are their chat tools and will they remain so? Are they actively developing or contributing to their devopment or just hoping for the best?
I presume there are a million and one other questions I have forgotten as I wrote this but I'll sum it all up by saying:I think Corel Linux was a great start to an OS project. I went far beyond anything any other Linux distro had done to reach out to the non-enthusiasts out there and offer them an alternative to Windows for their x86 computer. It wasn't perfect, it was a work in progress, and I hope that Xandros are actually able to take the ball and run with it as it had promise. The only things I question are the shift away from the home market, the lack of a Free CD and the inclusion of CrossOver Office which diminishes the impact of OpenOffice (Corel supplied a WP8 with their distro and let you choose the office tools you wanted on top of that, i.e. gnumeric or WPO2000 or StarOffice).
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Not to sound like a smartass but I ca't wait to buy the next version of Libranet. Debian w/ a good installer and the power and glory of apt-get. Rock solid stable too.
This guy is way out there
I love /. :-)
1) 'enhance' GPLed code
2) Charge for the 'enhancements' even though you'll have to give the source to anyone who buys your code. They can then post it on an ftp server, and everyone else in the world can now legally own it for free.
3) ???
4) Profit!
Just wait until someone buys it, asks for the source and then makes their own distro without the commercial components and puts it up on the web for free.
Lots, it's /.'d
:)
Of course it fucking is! Troll, dumbass, or sarcastic? Sarcastic seems crossed out as you say 'lots'!
and why aren't you running your own LEECH FTP?
$ ping 2130706433
PING 2130706433 (127.0.0.1) from 127.0.0.1 : 56(84) bytes of data.
64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=1 ttl=255 time=0.035 ms
64 bytes from 127.0.0.1: icmp_seq=2 ttl=255 time=0.042 ms
and for the true dumbass
127.0.0.1 is loopback
"The reason Linux has the market on servers and covers less than 1% of the dektop market is because consumers are computer illiterate. (Which is not their fault)"
So what do we do to change that, instead of contributing to it?
"The only way for Linux to have a shot at becoming a major OS and compete with Microsoft is if it can become dummy-proof and easy to use for the average PC owner."
How many other devices you know are as versitle as computers, and "dummy-proof". And if you say cars I'll smack you. Try watching an episode of "Worlds Worst Drivers" sometime."
"Xandros may not be that solution, but it's a step in the right directin to bridge the gap between linux and user-friendly needs."
The problem with the "it's gotta be like windows crowd" is that their own history puts that to a lie. From DOS to WindowsXP there's great enough difference, that if one was to use the same argument? Windows users never would have migrated as far as they did. So I guess they'll have to come up with another "reason" Linux has to have, for users to change over.
BTW the problem isn't so much the width of choices, but how their presented. People have the false impression that less means easier to use. Problem is answered by asking the question "Will I always be a newbie?". Real life tells us no. The way to accomedate both is by having an interface that gradually presents more and more of it's power as the user grows, and their needs change. Most interfaces seem to flirt with either end, and leave out the middle. To start:
1-Choose intelligent defaults.
2-Organize the menus along goals, while going from general to specific. Ending with the tool(s) desired.
3-Keep the overall appearance clean at all times (ask yourself:does this need to be here at this time?).
4-If a task needs to be followed in a particular sequence? Follow the same approach used in books. Subtlely guide from beginning to end.
5-Make your interface playable. By that I mean that the user can try different things without breaking anything. Remember trial and error should make the former easier, and the latter less likely.
6-If something is going to be unreversable, let the user know in a non-threatning, and non-insulting way.
7-Levels of preference tied in with experience gained. See #1 as well.
8-CLI's & GUI's can get along. Tied in with #7 one can set it so an action in one can be reflected in the other. i.e. KDE's explorer. By typing ls *.rpm the consequences are reflected in the icon view. By selecting all the jpegs in icon view, a command line is outputted that would accomplish the same.
9-If you've read this far down congradulations.
Keep in mind that Linux needs to look at the problems other OSs (not just Windows) have dealt with[1], and their implimentation. Then ask themselves. Is this the best way? Can I do better?
[1] Sidenote make certain that the problem really is a "problem", and a "common" one at that. Viruses on one and not the other for example.
No, I'm not.
Karma: Undead.
It's nice that Internet Explorer works properly in Xandros, but what about updates? IE is among those Microsoft applications that perpetually needs updating for the sake of security. The normal way to do this is by running patch executables (hotfixes) and by using the Windows Update IE plugin. Has anyone determined whether these methods work on a Xandros system?
Okay.. let me clarify myself after spending a lengthy period of time reading the gpl carefully.
1. Everyone who has the binary and is licensed to use it is entitled to the source code(to my understanding excludes some random person stealing the binary).
2. Everyone who had a license to the original work or any derivative works of the original work also has a license for the modified version (even if it is distributed for a 99$ fee - perfectly acceptable).
3. Distributor of modified version to my understanding is not required to provide either the binary or a source to a third party (original version license holder) but if this third party happens to come across the binary somehow they have the same rights as anyone who acquired it directly from the provider of modified version.
4. A third party can acquire a license also if someone who bought the software from you distributes it to them.
5. If a third party has acquired the binary and have a license to use it they can demand the source code and the provider must provide it or they are in violation of gpl.
Now, I wonder what the implications are for a case where a third party original license holder who does not have the modified binary "steals" it from somewhere. Technically it is not even a theft since they were licensed to use the software anyway.
Ooooh! KDE 2.2.2 *and* a $99 price tag? Does it come with kernel 2.2 also? What an up-to-date, strikingly new distro at a fair price.
Blargh. I'll take my cash elsewhere. If I wanted old stuff like 2.2.2 I'd be running mandrake 7.
As most of you should remember, Lindows was actually based on Xandros :D....
...and it never once worked on my Thinkpad 600. I was sent 3 different versions and none of them would boot to install. I've booted from the CDROM to install Windows, Redhat, Mandrake and Debian. Now to be fair to them, Corel Linux wouldn't boot from the CD neither and Xandros is based upon that former distro. YMMV.
As far as I know apt-get is in Xandros too...
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
You do realize their "revolutionary" file manager is just Konqueror with a sidebar plugin that rearranges the items to the way windows explorer looks, right? And that it'd probably take all of two days to write.
...what it means is they have wine installed. As long as you have a Windows install elsewhere, IE5 has run fine under regular wine for a long time now (at least a year ago I remember trying it, worked great).
I know it's bad form to comment on someone's sig quote,(hence the AC) but this has been bugging me. Shouldn't it be "immanentize the eschaton"? I just read that book a while back, or else I probably wouldn't even have noticed that.
Wow. I'm somewhat supprised at the number of people with legal knowledge posting here.
I do security
If they can't give people code which is linked to a GPL'd program, then they cannot give those people the binaries either.
Luke-Jr
No. The ones that receive binaries from the original customers have the right to get the sources from those customers, not from the company that put it out originally.
What? Please back up your position with a citation from the GNU GPL or the GNU GPL FAQ.
I'll back up my position. From the GPL (my emphasis):
From the GPL FAQ:
Will I retire or break 10K?
I like the easy to use GNU/Linux distro's. I've been able to convert several of my friends to GNU/Linux by promoting such distro's (especially Mandrake).
But I'm using Sid right now, and I also promote Debian. I might buy Xandros to give it a look... and once I buy a copy (or anyone else does for that matter) I can make it freely available to anyone I know... or heck, anyone that asks me for a copy...
So you're telling me all you geeks that are complaining about no free d/l dont know a single person that would buy it and burn you a copy???
This is left as an exercise for the reader.
Funny how you guys get a boner for such a rip-off. Weee, it comes with OpenOffice... But wait, it's only 99$us? Wow, what a bargain. 99$ for 250 hours of work from a startup company with no experience.
Of course that's much cheaper than going for Windows which is like 250$ but gets only 10000 hours of work, thousands of iterations and uncountable experience.
Nerd: Derogatory term typically directed at anybody with a lower Slashdot ID than you.
It is to laugh.
..until I was sucked in to all of this.
Linux does not work yet.
I would think that much of Xandros's niceness comes from the fact that it is Debian based... Now if you use all those goodies and not abiding by the GPL, you can probably be sued by Debian too?
"modprobe usb-storage /dev/sdXP /mnt/zip
read system messages to find what SCSI id it is (or know its id X, and then know what partition P)
mount
then browse it."
I love it when people pull out the convoluted (and old) examples to make their point.
I don't have to do all that in mandrake.
Found during installation. Icon on desktop.
Click Icon on desktop to get a file browser.
Look for file like you do on all those other OSes out there. If your going to make up an example, at least be current.
they picked out what they think are the best apps for each (mozilla for web browsing, gaim for chat, xmms for music etc) and if you have anything else, its in the "extras" menu
I can see the point of downloading and playing with a free OS, but are you telling me that someone would rather pay $99 for this half-finished, incompatible mess than $129 for the polished nirvana that is Mac OS X?
Okay, so Mac OS X rocks but doesn't run on your hardware. Does anyone really think this Xandros is worth more than the comparable "free" OSes??
the magic words ar for others. If you get a license that allows YOU to install multiple copies, that doesn't apply to other people.
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
My comment was based on the comparison to OS-X. If you'll find out that there's a Linux distro proven to be on-par to OS X (or even OS-X for PC), I bet that you'd at least consider spending some $$$ for it, even $99 if well proven, right?
My fiance uses OS X at the lab (she's a biologist) and I would NOT bring that into a corporate environment (unless I need a graphic arts station). OS X is a great home system and a good academic system, but in terms of a corporate desktop no. The administration is not nearly as easy and user proof as it could be. I hate to say it but it does not compare well with Win XP on the desk. For servers, well if I put a mac of anytype in the server room I would feel trekish "To boldly go where no Mac has gone..." No I am sorry that was a cheap shot. The Macs in the lab serve quite well, but there are not many essential apps that would run (or maybe I should say, that I am aware of) on a mac server.
I do not consider OS X to be a goal for Linux. RH has advanced server which is a great step forward now they need advanced Desktop. The thing with these is the feature freeze. Coding to RH advanced server is not a moving target. If I were asked a bug with Linux it is the moving nature of the OS.
All of those distributions you mention have their strong points, but all of them continue to have major weaknesses. While Debian has bar none the best package management, it also has gained status in the geek community for it's impossibility to successfully install, and it sacrifices latest releases in exchange for stability. Mandrake is easy to install, but impossible to upgrade, and difficult to make into a server. Red Hat has a mushy middle ground with an easy installer and an even easier breaker (RPM).
None of these are simple enough. None of them have a truly idiot-proof installer, and all of them are harder to use than a mac. GUI elements are disparate and feel patched together, and they all lack the ability to run windows code... a must for many businesses / people.
In short, all of the distributions out there have something to get richeously indignant about.
The windows crossover distributions are a step in a direction. Whether or not it is a good direction has yet to be seen. However, they do fill the need for a low-cost windows alternative for sub $500 computers. Lycoris, Xandros, and Lindows are doing what Mandrake has been afraid to do: namely, aping the interface and protocols that everyone knows. But like Mandrake, Xandros is building on the success of another distribution. Debian with MS Office support and an installer that doesn't take 12 hours of babysitting? Where do I send my money?
All these Lindows distros are doing is taking successful desktops, adding decent installation routines and windows compatibility, and selling the result. How can this be a bad thing?
Xandros is an excellent stopgap until OpenBEOS is stable enough to throw our zealotry behind.
-C
When people tell me that they want to try Linux, I just get them to download Mozilla. It makes the non-geeks happy without the frustration and it betters the Internet environment. Besides, the serious ones don't say they want to try Linux: they say they have f*ed up an install and could use some help.
This Sig is a mnemonic device designed to allow you to recognize this author in the future.
3) The third party is whoever the distributor distributes to.
In contract law, a "third party" is " One other than the principals involved in a transaction". Thus, "any third party" can be taken to mean "anyone other than the author and the person redistributing the software".
the copyright defaults for the author are essentially "do whatever you want".
Not necessarily. If your work is a derivative work of another work, and the author of the other work refuses to license it under reasonable terms, you can't distribute your work. This has nasty implications for songwriters because it can be mathematically proven that every musical work is a derivative of a previous work.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Non-destructive (will you backup?) NTFS partition resizing is in as part of the install, and that I must say is a great innovation!
But it's not an innovation: ASPLinux had it long before Xandros did.
To benefit the Linux community generally, and especially the open-source Linux community, I've started documenting ways to deal with the NTFS problem, here: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/linux-info/ntfs
Rick Moen
rick@linuxmafia.com
Thanks for the link to the info. Also I never knew that any other distro had an installer to deal with this (unless you count shipping with partition magic which I wouldn't). My apologies to ASPLinux (who I never heard of) for giving away their credit.
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Men's skin is different from women's skin. It is usually bigger, and ...
... until finally the two of you are lying there, spent, smoking your
it has more snakes tattooed on it. Also, if you examine a woman's skin
very closely, inch by inch, starting at her shapely ankles, then gently
tracing the slender curve of her calves, then moving up to her
[EDITOR'S NOTE: To make room for news articles about important world events
such as agriculture, we're going to delete the next few square feet of the
woman's skin. Thank you.]
cigarettes, and suddenly it hits you: Human skin is actually made up of
billions of tiny units of protoplasm, called "cells"! And what is even more
interesting, the ones on the outside are all dying! This is a fact. Your
skin is like an aggressive modern corporation, where the older veteran
cells, who have finally worked their way to the top and obtained offices
with nice views, are constantly being shoved out the window head first,
without so much as a pension plan, by younger hotshot cells moving up from
below.
-- Dave Barry, "Saving Face"
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