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Build Your Own PowerPC?
amokk asks: "Let's assume for a second that somebody would want to take the time and effort to build a Personal Computer but base it on a PowerPC architecture. Besides saying 'Buy a Mac' (I already have one) or 'Buy an IBM server', is there any way of acquirng the individual parts and slapping them together? Why you would want to do this isn't up for debate. Rather, this is one of those 'wouldn't it be neat if...' type of experiments."
Is "do I want this to be Mac compatible, or Linux/someotherOS compatible".
The latter answer is the easier one - the former is harder, since you would have to find "official" Apple parts to make sure the OS talked nice to all the pieces.
Either way, the idea is an interesting one.
52 Weeks, 52 Religions with John Hummel
Look here, but it's kind of old. Oh and here also!
You can buy refurb'ed Mac motherboards from Shreve Systems in Shreveport, LA. They are a really good source to start with.
He had a dozen or so free copies of Mac OS X (10.1 I believe) but no hardware onto which to place this neat new OS.
So, he scoured eBay for the appropriate parts (motherboard, chip, RAM, SCSI hard disks) and pieced together all of the new machines from scratch.
He told me the only real hard part was finding cases. I think he's still two cases short, but ended up simply mounting the components onto a piece of drywall and setting them flat on a lab table!
Department of Physics and Atmospheric Science, Dalhousie University, Halifax, N.S., Canada, B3H 3J5
I happened to be in a Computer Renaissance store the other day and saw a couple PPC UMAX Pc's for sale there. Quite cheap. $100 apiece (Old too, not new Power PC's of course.)
Let's assume for a second that somebody would want to take the time and effort to build a Personal Computer
God forbid. Would you prefer to buy a stock machine with sub-standard parts? Sure, there are several places (Dell) where you can customize the computer before you buy it, but nothing can match the customizability found in building your own computer. I just purchased a new computer, by taking some parts out of my old one, giving them to the service desk at my local computer shop, and telling them how to fill in the blanks. It runs solidly, I know I'm using compatible hardware, furthermore I know exactly what's in it. It beats the heck out of buying a computer with just a "sound card", "hard drive" and "motherboard", and no other descriptive names to tell you exactly what you're getting. Besides which I would imagine many on Slashdot would be perfectly capable of building their own computers.
But yeah, PowerPC takes it a step farther.
The AmigaOne G3 SE is a fairly generic ATX motherboard with 133MHz DIMM sockets, IBM 750CXe PowerPC chip (600Mhz), 4xPCI, 1xAGP, etc, etc.
.. or is that a bit too easy? :-)
It runs AmigaOS 4 or PPC Linux quite happily. Plonk one of these in a standard case and you've got yourself a DIY PPC solution
Meep meep
Dude, the parts you're looking for just don't COME in the retail channels these days. I've seen modjobs where Mac enclosures have been used to house PCs (Rotten Apple is a good example), and others, such as the G4 heatsink that was scavenged in order to make a lowend P3 heatsink.
The tough part about building a Mac is Apple itself - they are the ONLY supplier of Macs or Mac parts, and they want it to stay that way. Why do you think Jobs got rid of the cloners?
------- "From bored to fanboy in 3.8 asian girls" ----------
The limitation is really over whether or not you want to use the MacOS. If you could use, say, yellow dog linux, then your job is much easier. Buy your processors from Sonnet, your motherboard from any school (they're getting rid of those old 6100/66 machines like crazy... I have 22), grab your ram from the same places... Basically take a bunch of old machines, assemble one that works from their parts, add a new processor. Or you can do what I'm doing and chain a bunch of stock machines together via ethernet. The only problem is they draw 60 amps of current.
Oh, yeah... see if you can get your hand on a workgroup server.
--Bennett Prescott
Former Lord Of Packets
Pegasos
Should be available now AFAIK.
There is also the Amiga One which right now is mostly vapor (E.g. not purchasable at the moment)
See, I mentioned both.
I found a fast warez site: http://warez.it.kth.se
Don't buy just any mac, buy this one.
http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=02/09/15/ 1918233&mode=thread&tid=181
Just stating the obvious
Are you looking for something like this?
From the site:
The boards do appear to be available - anyone tried them?
If you could get Darwin running on such a homemade PowerPC (not made from old Mac parts, but built from 'scratch')... could you then take the pre-compiled parts of aqua out of Mac OS X and run this on your homemade powerpc computer?
Doesn't darwin handle all of the interaction directly with the hardware? If the aqua binaries can run on your homemade powerpc, shouldn't everything work just fine?
And a related question... what if you got Darwin running on an x86 chip with a PowerPC emulator? Could you, theoretically, get aqua to run on such a system?
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Obviously, the real issue is the motherboard. Once you have a working motherboard, you can get whatever power supply, cards, and whatnot you want.
Different CPUs talk to the system differently. It's not just a matter of having different pinouts; the functionality of they motherboard is fundamentally different depending on the processor. Otherwise, I'm sure you could buy an adaptor to plug your PPC chip into a P4 motherboard--that would be nice, but it's not realistic.
Next Weeek On Ask Slashdot: "Let's assume I want to pump gas into my car through the radiator and mix in diet cherry 7-up. WHY is not up for debate. I just need the schematics and blue prints of how to achieve this, and I need this NOW."
The author should ask to ammend the question to include (or not) compatability with Mac PPC as a goal.
Can you buy Motorola motherboards and pop in a CPU? Sure.
That's it??
It would be more interesting to consider the "platform" as part of the question. Some would be exclusively interested in compliant hardware that runs MacOS. Others would just want something that runs Linux.
This site has instructions on what you need, where to get it, and how to put it all together. Pretty useful if you want to build your own Mac and don't want to pay Apple's prices.
infested with jello like fishes no melotron wishes
PowerPPC Linux is no longer updated what OS are you going to use? Amiga?
Don't Tread on OpenSource
We have just taken down one of our servers that is an IBM RISC System/6000 F30 PowerPC that we're not sure what to do with. It had AIX on it, but I'll be very interested on other things that could be done with this old iron.
...are there mainboards and CPUs available to end-users that are not in the sky-high price-range that manufacturers take for developer hardware?
I'd be interested in building an ARM-based desktop computer, but it seems there is no normal mainboard sold to end-users. Or is it? ("Normal" = standard form factor, standard RAMs, IDE, USB and VGA included, possibly PS/2 and serial too.)
Same question for the Crusoe, btw. Seems that the only desktop mainboard available is developers only...
------------------
You may like my a cappella music
If you want a PowerPC system, and you don't mind paying a good bit for it, Motorola has numerous systems that run in Linux which you can sometimes get Motorola to admit that they sell, and then sell you one. There's a few other vendors which sell systems as well (Force, SBS, IBM). All of these have a PCI slot of some sort so you might be able to get a video card.
If 'non-official' companies start to make Mac parts then building a Mac would be cheaper. But, we would also have the same compatability problems that we have with PCs so, what's the point?
We've seen this same question (or something almost identical).. uh.. how many times now?
Let's recap our "where to get Mac parts" list:
eBay
Wierdstuff Warehouse
macresq.com/etc
friends.
Oh, and for the IBM stuff? That's easy. They have dumpsters outside, don't they? Get the h00kup from some disgruntled employee that has access to parts. Just give them beer, works everytime..
You could get a PPC based Amiga One. I've not used one personaly, but it appears to be a PPC system using mostly commodity parts.
I got that link from a story ran on slashdot a while back you can read through that here if you'd like.
Look here:
IBM's POP Motherboard
IBM has an open PowerPC motherboard design. I suspect you could build this using off-the-shelf parts, and probably get linux running on it.
-Jason
Here are a few resellers of Apple hardware:
Milagro and ETI Express
check it.
Build a Macintosh from Scratch
I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
You should try to see if you can put a Commodore 64 in it!
Worse than off topic, it's WRONG TOPIC.
Check your shi', foolio.
Motorola StarMax is another candidate. I have a 604e 200Mhz.
0xfeedface
Build your own G4
Can you clarify whether you intend to purchase a motherboard, or make one? IMO, the main board is the piece that makes a "CPU" into a "computer".
If the answer is that you want to buy a PowerMac, IBM RS/6000, etc motherboard, than I would say you haven't "built your own" anything. If you do intend to make your own main board, than nobody here on slashdot can help you.
If you really want to build a system from parts there are several places you can go. Motorola sells evaluation platforms that consisto of a motherboard (essentially a backplane) and CPU modules that plug into it. It's calld Sandpoint. You can get third party CPU modules for it from Tundra (who also sells whole kits with their own system board). Marvell/Galileo sells a platform that is well suited to building a PC style machine with PPC hardware, and you can get a variety of processor cards for it ranging from low end G3 style processors up to dual 7450 processors.
Some of the best PPC machines available right now can't be built from parts simply because they're on a single board. My current to y is the cyclades TS-100 it's only 1"x3"x3", has dual CPUs and can be had for under $200.
incripshin
A dual processor motherboard could be developed that could use both an x86 chip (from somebody like Intel or AMD) and the PowerPC processor. Obviously a completly new operating system would need to be developed, or a large amount of porting would be required to get something like Debian, or Redhat working on it but the advantages of boht processors could be shared. physman
Murphy's Law of Research: Enough research will tend to support your theory.
http://www.xavax.com/ans/ppcmb.html
Google, google, google....
The question actually is not "can you", but indeed "why" or "what for". Corporate america doesn't use pixy dust. With training, instructions, and patience (or just money), you can build almost anything that intel, cisco, or apple makes. You may need a good chunk of an electrical engineering education (or time to read the books on your own). An EE could do it in his/her sleep.
So "can you" is a simple yes.
The interesting question is "why?" and "what for?".
To be perfectly honest, what I hope is a valid, non-troll question: why?
I mean, I can understand buying a Mac for the ease of use and integration of the Mac OS and it's associated applications. However, when you start talking about buying/building a PowerPC machine - I don't see the point.
Those who say that the PowerPC is falling behind - fast - in processor performance have a very valid point. I'm a Mac fan, and I realize this. It is getting to the point that Intel-compatible processors are equal to or better than PowerPC processors at the same or lower cost. It's only the Mac OS that still gives reason to continuing to use the PowerPC.
And as such, if you aren't talking a Mac OS machine, you can run Linux or BSD just as easily on a Intel-compatible processor and platform as you could if you built a PPC machine. More easily, actually, because you can get the parts to put the machine together so much easier.
Note: I'm not talking a POWER server - that's a different beast, and there's reason for that as well. This is strictly talking about building or buying a non-Mac OS compatible PowerPC computer.
Debian. See http://www.debian.org/ports/powerpc/ and http://penguinppc.org/ .
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
Check out these guides for repackaging either a Beige G3 or Blue/White G3 in a standard ATX case. All that's needed that is "Apple offical" is the motherboard stuff; memory, video ( uses Mac PCI video cards ), HD, and CD-ROM are off the shelf PC items. They use ZIF CPUs which can be obtained from Apple, Sonnet, NewerTech, and many others.
uhhh... Yellow Dog Linux or SUSE???
Someone, please shake me from this wide-awake nightmare.
Why you want to do this *IS* up for debate. If you're shooting for a unix (linux/whatever) platform, does it really matter that it's PowerPC? I mean, unix is general enough that unless you've got specific hardware requirements (and processor alone doesn't constitute this -- I'm talking wierd ass PCI cards or other barnyard oddities) it doesn't matter if you're on powerpc, intel, or sparc. The cheapest bang for the buck in this category is, as we all know, intel.
:)
I've no idea what you'd need to do to get this MacOS compatible. Do they still use dark matter (ROM) in those machines? But if you're not going for Mac compatibility I don't know why you want to roll your own.
If you've got a warezhouse full of PowerPC assembly programs then that's a different story. Obviously you're going to need a specific processor to run them. Or maybe you're looking to do embedded system development on a PowerPC?
Inquiring minds want to know. Ok, we don't really *want* to know, we'd really just like to laugh at the idea a bit more.
I find the idea really interesting, and am actually thinking of attempting to build a mac myself...but is there really such a need for repetitive article posting.
Only difference is i think maybe the last story actualy detailed HOW to build one, what channels to get parts through(e-bay, etc.) and gave an estimated cost. Considering that, posting this question seems even sillier.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't apple not approve of this?
Isn't this why apple doesn't have resellers (like compaq, dell, etc...)??
Specs:
I use Macs to up my productivity, so up yours Microsoft!
Motorola and IBM don't sell their CPUs to end users. You can order a G4 or even a G5 (PPC 8500 series) from one of Mot's suppliers like Arrow, but I believe they force you to order in high quantities (40+ at a time).
During the dot-bomb era, several companies like Eternal Computing and Silicon Fruit promised to offer affordable PowerPC motherboards to retail customers. Nothing ever came of it (insert Apple conspiracy theory here).
I think there's a market for retail PowerPC motherboards, or there will be once IBM's 970 hits the market. It's fun to mess with exotic hardware like the PPC, and its performance is very impressive considering its limited clock speed. IBM has published a spec for PowerPC logic boards that is available for free on its website (i'm sure someone else has posted the link by now).
Linux would run on these things in no time (maybe we could even build our own TiVOs with 'em). And Mac OS X would be easy to port, with or without Apple's help.
I don't think IBM would like this idea very much however, since it might undercut their huge margins on PPC-based servers. On the other hand, if they manufactured and sold the motherboard for cheap, they could bring PPC to a much larger audience.
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
Just get a BeBox and inherits the legacy
(well if you can find one)
PowerPPC lost out to the competition. YellowDog, Debian, NetBSD, Mandrake, SuSE, and a few others have taken up the slack. I use YellowDog on my iMac and am very happy with it.
OSX with XWindows installed is about all one needs.
I have considered building. A PPC machine would be nice.
photosMy Photostream
How many machines is this?? How much more do you spend for air conditioning -- or do you like to cook hot dogs while you're working?
Just ask the "what if" machine! :-P
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
Macopz.com "build a Mac" page
They have links to all the parts suppliers, the parts add up to $800
somebody actually designed an emulator that ws both fast and worked on a decent desktop PC that emulated (or simulated) the PPC architecture on x86? this would probaly be a much more cost efficient option and also give most mere mortals a chance to experience PPC and run MacOS, without 'buying a Mac' or 'buying an IBM server' or 'building a PowerPC comuter'?!
physman
Murphy's Law of Research: Enough research will tend to support your theory.
Probably still "assisting police with their enquiries"...
He didn't say he wanted to build a Mac for crying out loud.
This is a fine piece of iron. Slow by today's standards, but bulletproof / built-like-a-tank.
If I had one, I'd immediately proceed to install Linux on it.
I do have an old RS6000/43P (desktop unit, 120MHz ppc uniprocessor) that I just decommissioned from service as an Informix workgroup database server, and intend to try installing Linux on it if I ever find some spare time to play around with it.
Please, stop; your making me drool. homemade PowerPC...
Imagine a Beowolf Cluster of THESE!!!
Let a friend take it apart.
Now you'll have all the pieces so you can "build your own".
The cpu slot is VERY finicky.
The only question is when or if [Apple] are going to release [Mac OS for x86].
There's already Carbon (the updated Mac Toolbox) for Windows, as part of QuickTime for Windows, and other apps can link to it.
Will I retire or break 10K?
Does that mean that I can install Darwin on a x86 and install Quartz, Carbon (not this) and Cocoa?
Does Aqua interact with Open Firmware directly, or does it go through Darwin?
If got a fully functioning Darwin system running X-Windows on a PPC, couldn't you just copy the binary files for the Aqua windowing system over?
(This would violate the OS X EULA -- but is it possible in theory?)
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Mac On Linux will let you run MacOS (including OS X) on any PowerPC system that runs Linux -- even if MacOS won't run natively on the hardware. Mac On Linux provides a MacOS-compatible virtual machine (but it doesn't emulate the processor, so it's nearly as fast as running native).
I think that [$550 motherboard] includes the CPU.
Even so, it's still out of my price range (but possibly not yours). Unless you're trying to build a multiple-platform compile and test farm, why buy a $550 CPU and motherboard for the PPC architecture, a $50 case, a hard drive, a keyboard, a mouse, and a CD-ROM drive instead of an x86 based total package for $200?
Will I retire or break 10K?
The main problem building a Mac PPC using a refurbished motherboard seemed to be the power supply, IIRC. Needs a 28v trickle feed.
Anyway, worth a read.
Slashdot looked deep within my soul and assigned
me a number based on the order in which I joined
There is no commodity market for generic PPC boards, but such boards do exist. For instance we use them for early development stages of software for our embedded systems. They are standard ATX boards with a PPC chip and the usual host of connectors plus some more developer centric things like bus taps to allow easy application of data analyzers to the PCI bus etc. The thing is because there are no economies of scale these boards cost as much as a complete low end system from Apple.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
I run MattOS on my PPC architecture
Try here for resellers.
MicroATX mainboard (236 mm x 172 mm)
133 MHz processor slot
600 MHz PowerPC G3 750 CXe - to Dual PowerPC G4 MPC 7450
PC133 RAM (two sockets), up to 2 GB
AGP slot
PCI subsystem with three slots, optional Riser Card
IEEE1394 (Firewire) VIA VT6306 with 100/200/400 MBit data transfer
10/100 MBit Realtek Phyceiver 8201 Ethernet
USB I/O system VIA 8231 with four connectors
AC97 sound subsystem Sigmatel STAC 9766 Codec with mic input, line in/out and headset connector
IRDA for infra-red remote control
ATA100 VIA 8231 with two channels for upto four ATA devices
PS/2 mouse connector
RS232 (serial) port
Centronics port
Floppy
Gameport for PC-compatible joysticks
Open firmware
Two operating systems included : MorphOS and Linux
Macofalltrades.com
,check it and love it.
I don't think I could build a custom PPC machine for less then the prices here.
Nuff said
Dr. Suess: 'Gandalf, Gandalf! Take the ring! I am too small to carry this thing!' 'I can not, will not hold the One.
This was called the "common reference hardware platform". Before Apple usurped back the Power Computing, Motorola, and Umax clones, this was supposed to be one potential answer to building a non-mac powerpc box. Motorola came the closest to accomplishing this by implementing standard PC parts (like ps/2 ports) on their computer.
. sh tml
At one time, back when Microsoft actually supported the PowerPC architecture, Firmworks and IBM actually made a dual-booting macintosh/NT computer in 1996. IBM's motivation was linux, I believe. Check these links out:
http://www.firmworks.com/www/chrp.htm
http://www.webopedia.com/TERM/C/CHRP.html
http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/9908/19.ibm
I personally LOVED the thought of being able to go to a computer show and putting together an NT or a linux or a mac-compatible computer by purchasing individual parts.
You know, it's really a damn shame this wasn't meant to be.
Unfortunately, it's people like these people in Wales that give industrially produced biofuels (such as biodiesel manufactured to ASTM D6751-02) a bad name. A bunch of wankers that ruin engines with chip particles and undecanted glycerin deserve to have the engines fail... Not to mention that it is technically illegal to evade taxes in this manner.
For anyone wishing to get the non-hippie version of the biodiesel industry, check out www.biodiesel.org.
--
dman123 forever!
Filtering out the -1s and 0s since 1999.
I'm no EE so maybe I'm way off, but I don't understand why a single mobo maker (e.g., Abit, Asus, Tyan) couldn't make just one PowerPC-based mobo, since all the other parts (IDE, PCI/AGP, et al) are the same. I would think minor changes to the clocking of the board and the right kind of CPU socket is all that's needed. Oh yeah, it would also need Open Firmware for booting.
Sure the market is tiny compared to the x86 mobo market. But there's also no competition. Linux works great on the PowerPC so it would be easy to support a board like this. Someone take a risk and create the market!
steal a mac
steal an ibm server
=) sorry couldn't help myself.
You need to check out the Acorn community (or perhaps that's where you're coming from?). Acorn was an English Arm-based home computer of the late 80's that competed (none to sucessfully, outside Britain at least) against Amiga an Atari.
Even though the Acorn community is now shriveled enough to make Amiga look healthy by comparision, they have been the one and only group pushing Arm-based desktops over the last decades.
There seems to be at least a couple hardware resellers still in operation. The pricing didn't seem to extortionate to me, either.
I choose to remain celibate, like my father and his father before him.
I know I'm probably being really paranoid and alarmist, but this Open PPC architecture may be necessary if Palladium and DRM succeed in keeping Linux off the PC desktop.
The odds of Palladium locking out Linux from the PC platform are minimal at best, but in order to ensure the survival of OpenSource, it is probably best to make available an alternative computing architecture for Linux and OpenSource software in case Microsoft and the content providers get their way in crippling PCs.
Open PPC (if I may call it that) may be essential to ensure the long-term survival of OpenSource and protect it and the internet from those who would attempt to restrict it.
This space left intentionally blank.
Motorola makes reference motherboards and pre-built systems based on them. You can run MontaVista Linux on them. There's a dual-1GHz model available.
I haven't tried it myself. I suspect it's not cheaper than buying a Mac.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
There are more embedded boards that runs MIPS. You can pick up a devel kit from anywhere from $800 to $4000 for a MIPS. (perhaps around 200Mhz).
/ .. 500Mhz G4. the size of a 5.25" drive. it's about $2000.
There is also the briQ being sold by Yellow Dog.
http://www.terrasoftsolutions.com/products/briQ
(all $ amounts are USD)
Build a Mac! see Can I build a Mac? see Build a Mac! see Can I build a Mac? see Build a Mac! see Can I build a Mac? see Build a Mac! see Can I build a Mac? see ... ad infinitum...
- I am made of meat.
PowerPC *is* RISC, right?
Current Apple and openly available PowerPC components are hardly exotic. They lack in many areas in comparison to even current low-end x86 hardware. If you want to "play" with some exotic hardware - go to ebay and purchase an UltraSparc.
In the SGI O3K server systems, each brick has an L1 controller, and each rack has an L2 controller. The L2 controller is about the size of a cable modem, sits in the top of the rack, uses an embedded PPC processor, and runs a stripped down Linux. Uses flash for storage. Never opened one up, but thought it was cool.
Is it possible to interface an alternate CPU to a motherboard not originally designed for it? For instance, could a PowerPC be grafted onto a standard x86 motherboard? In my somewhat currently limited knowledge of such things, it seems that address lines are just address lines and it all really comes down to software. So if a new bios firmware could be connected to the new chip, and the right bus lines connected in the right places, the rest would just be software, right?
:-)
I imagine there would be timing issues to deal with. Possibly voltage differences, too. I don't know. Like I said, I don't know much about this layer of things.
Hexy - a strategy game for iPhone/iPod Touch
you could buy a PPC machine from these people and if you ask real nice they might let you in on their suppliers
Thank you, I was looking for this link at work as I had it at home. Good post =)
-- If an artist saw things as they truly are, they would cease to be an artist.
Slashdot posted a new topic on me.
mbbac
Building a home brew PowerPC brings up some other interesting points. How about instead of overclocking CPU's and case mods we have PCI bus overclocking and memory mods. Why not hack and tinker with the other major parts of a computer ( like I/O ) like we do with CPUs?
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
No, becuse Quartz, Carbon, and Cocoa are shipped as PowerPC binaries.
You could of course run Mac-On-Linux on a PowerPC Based Linux system regardless or not if the underlying hardware was made by Apple. Modern day Apple Operating Systems do not require 'Macintosh ROMs' per say. They are included on the OS CD.
;)
http://www.maconlinux.com/
Now if only there were a nForce2 based PowerPC board...
Take care!
When I was looking at little embedded motherboards to play with, I came across the Via Eden with a 800mhz C3, standard dimms and everything onboard. They're nicer than most embedded 486's or that sort, and only $129 most places. Unless you need a teenie, tiny motherboard, why go arm?
"We must be the change we wish to see in the world." -Gandhi
KY makes a perfectly suitable lubricant for masturbation to pr0n!
This was already slashdotted. Do a search. On a sidenote, I have just built a Mac out of spare and refurbished parts. When I get around to it, I'll have info up on http://htmlnut.com.
Yeah, but who wants to drive in a car that smells like a McDonalds? -Bullseye
is that in the Netherlands we are talking about adapting diesel cars to use ureum. That's a component of urine, but is also used in fertilizer. The european laws will become very strict on NOx pollution (which causes acid rain) and ureum can neutralize it.
I'm afraid that peeing in your gas tank won't work since the ureum must be added to the exhaust gasses, but I think that you should be able to build a pee-guzzling catalyst. Imagine the look on the faces of your friends as you tell them you are going to have a leak, but skip the rest room and walk to your car.
The Drowned and the Saved - Primo Levi
Motherboards can be found at http://www.macresq.com and http://www.shrevesystems.com/ although a lot of times they are refurbished and processors new can be found here http://www.sonnettech.com/ and http://eshop.macsales.com/ . Of course if you have time all these things can be found on http://www.ebay.com/. And for everything else use http://www.pricewatch.com/ for ram, video card, etc. As for specifications on each board starting from g3s go to http://www.info.apple.com/support/applespec.html.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is a choice for evil.
Can't remember where I got this from... probably macslash. I've bookmarked it for rainy day, so I have not gone through all the details.
http://www.macopz.com/buildamac/
since you will have an apple mobo everything software wise should be 100% compatible. You can run OS 9, linux, unix, bsd, darwin, and any version of OS X.
Choosing the lesser of two evils is a choice for evil.
I know this really doesn't answer his question but couldn't the transmeta chip be programmed to emulate PowerPc chips.Not that I have see a whole lot more transmeta mobo's out there.
Motorola makes a couple of PowerPC based microcontrollers. These come with a number of usefull peripherals (USB endpoints, ethernet interfaces, serial ports, parallel I/O ports, etc.), some RAM and some EPROM all on a single chip. In decades past, Steve Ciarcia built a small publishing empire on the practice of building homebrew personal computers on similar microcontrollers (Z80 variants, in his case). The same approach could be used today. If you don't want to use a PowerPC, there are similar beasts available based on other popular architectures.
i've got a couple of StarMax boxes - both 200MHz 604s. They run YDL 2.4 pretty well. At one time I struggled with SuSE 7.1 PPC on it, but the newer versions of SuSE no doubt work much better (7.1 still used the 2.2-series kernels, and there were some issues with the console driver and the ATI Mach-64VT chip used on the motorola logic boards). Keep in mind that an old-world Macintosh (any that doesn't use Open Firmware, which is anything made before the Blue and White G3) will require a small MacOS partition to run BootX from.
you'd need to figure out how to talk to all the other busses on the motherboard (memory, AGP, USB, Firewire). I suppose that it would be best to use a bare-bones board that has lots of PCI slots and just insert a card for each bus you want to support. Perhaps the daughterboard would have a ribbon cable that attaches to the processor slot on the motherboard to control those items it can't directly access???
science is a religion
The subject says it all really. Lil french company is building an MATX MB that uses PPC cpu's, currently available with g3's, will eventually be offered with dual g4's. Features include Serial, Paralell, Modem, Ethernet, SPDIF,Sound, Midi, 1 AGP slot and 3 pci slots. Its based on a via produced chipset that was designed by some company who's name i can't frigin' remember. Currently your choices for OS on the board are Linux and MorphOS. Should also be noted this is a mutaul effort between 3 company's. MorphOS who are makeing one of its two OS's, B-Plan who are egenearing the board, and Thendic-France who is marketing the prebuilt version called the Pegasos. I don't think the B-plan boards are available to consumers, IE you have to buy them in orders of 10 or greater, and its about $1000 a board :\ I dunno if the $1000 price tag of doom comes with cpu or not either.
-Polyhead-
So, cost is your overriding factor, eh? Well, have I've got a deal for you!
Just for you:
Total package is $175 than your best price!!!
Best of all, it's x86-based, just like the orginal author did not want!
Go to
http://www.macopz.com and
learn how to build your own (date: Sept 13th, 2002).
I was (loosely) involved in a project making Linux BSPs for Sandpoint, and though I don't remember the particulars, I remember lots of problems... we also had trouble writing debugger kernels for this board.
Funny this topic should come up. One of my pet progects right now is constructing a Mac from bits and parts. It started off as a $50 (including shipping) PowerMac 8500/120 with no hard drives, and is now one with an ATA card, 17 GB of hdd space, 256 meg of ram (more to come with 8 slots), a CDRW. This is on top of the board's built in RCA in/out and SVideo In/Out. Next purchase (read "next paycheck") I'm going to buy an 800Mhz G4 PCI daughtercard (indeed they do work... the 7500-9500 had sweet motherboards) so I can crank this baby up to warp. Add a new video card and a USB/Firewire PCI card, this thing will be a honey of a machine, with AV capablities, Dual-heads, and all for about $600. This is a fun project so far, and I can't wait to get the G4 in there (which is OSX compatable, which is great).
If you like to build, it can be done, you just wind up with a very weird Frankenstein (like the one I'm winding up with!)
... but I'm typing this reply on a Mac that I pieced together for less than $250 all figured. I run OS 9.1 currently, but another $100 worth of parts and I can put OS X on here.
Basically, I started with an old PowerCenter 120 (a PowerPC Mac Clone) with 32MB of RAM. Total cost? $47 from Ebay
Next up, I added 128MB of RAM from Computer Renaissance... it's fussy about is RAM (5V DIMMs). Total cost: $30
Next... I added an old SCSI drive I had knocking around (4Gb drive from an old server of mine). Total cost: $0
THEN I added a Powerlogix G3-400 upgrade card, $85 from Other World Computing. Finally, added a $49 copy of OS9.1 and OSX 10.1 (a bundled special also from OWC).
So what can I do with it? Well, I love the fact that I now have a machine that's relatively trouble-free, runs the applications I use most often with aplomb (word processing, email, Mozilla etc.) and provides me a REAL upgrade path to OSX. Yeah, OSX isn't strictly compatible with my hardware, but the only piece that's truly critical is the video; to be fixed by the addition of a Radeon 7000 in the next few weeks. Everything else can be worked around using XPostFacto.
Worth a thought if you REALLY want to play with OS X but don't want to outlay on the hardware. FYI, this thing runs OS 9.1 faster than my neighbor's 400Mhz Imac... still remains to be seen how X will run.
Total cost for the project: $300 or so
Value of knowing my 5-year old Mac is more reliable and stable than anything with Microsoft OS's on it: priceless!
And some people's "bang" involves philosophical (and maybe even emotional and irrational) qualities that an Intel-worshipping infidel like you, would never understand. ;-)
As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
What *other* excuse does a geek need? Building and configuring regular x86 boxen gets boring after a while.
About '94, we were all looking forward to the alleged PowerPC systems running the "new" OS-2 Warp to come out. Supposed to be compatible with Windows, advantages of RISC processing.....blah blah...
I bet it would have been a neat system.
The only problem I see is to solder the ball grid.
freebsd doesnt even have run level 5, its got 2 runlevels, single, and multiuser. and on ppc its not even that complicated. why not get mdk or suse. linux has better hardware support and alot of packaged software for ppc.
Build a Macintosh From Scratch
Why bother, you can get a six year old RS6000 for practically free, and they run forever. Like Linux, but more interesting -- for those who REALLY love system administration AIX Just TOTALLY ROX!!!!
My boyfriend builds macs from parts all the time. Our living room floor is covered with parts, and I get yelled at if I accidentally step on any of them. He buys and sells the stuff on ebay and a few mac geek websites.
For a follow-up, do a search on "old world" versus "new world" Macs. The "new world" Macs are the ones that don't use a ROM to store system code, they use a disk file instead.
I think all the machines since the original 1998 iMac are "new world" machines.
Adressing the question of running OS X on non apple hardware from a software perspective, simpler and more effective than emulation would be a port of the darwin core for other (presumably x86 or x86-64) archetecture. Can anyone think of a reason this would be more impractical than emulation?
"My guess would be that it might be possible to do that with the 68k, but definitely not on the PPC hardware. The binaries would not be able to run on the PPC because OS 8 is not an interpreter AFAIK the actual instructions in QuickDraw are not PPC so the PPC processor would not be able to understand them."
:)
Heh heh!
There is no excuses for drug abuse.
Does the GameCube run on a G3 Processor? I don't know if there's a Linux project for the Nintendo GameCube, but it sure would be pretty cool to get MacOS X running on that puppy.
Talk about space saving!
Anyone know where I can pick up parts to build an alpha system? From what I can tell building a PPC system from scratch is going to leave me with a somewhat rigged/dated machine. Personally, I have always been interested in building my own Alpha box. Where can one get Alpha processors/motherboards? I've so far had no luck finding such things...
Russian Russian Russian RussianDollSig DollSig DollSig DollSig
Here are some excerpts from Apple's own documentation, the Quartz Primer:
"Quartz offers a sophisticated two-dimensional drawing engine and an advanced windowing environment...
"Quartz is a powerful graphics system that delivers a rich imaging model, on-the-fly rendering, anti-aliasing, and compositing of two-dimensional graphics. At the heart of the Mac OS X graphics and windowing environment, Quartz supports a wide range of features, from low-level event handling and cursor management to the distinctive look and feel of Aqua, Mac OS X's new graphical user interface."
"Quartz has two parts, Core Graphics Rendering and Core Graphics Services. The Core Graphics Services layer consists of the window server. The window server is a single system-wide process that coordinates low-level windowing behavior and enforces a fundamental uniformity in window appearance."
Sounds like a job for a window manager to me. Here's what they say Aqua is: "Aqua is, in a nutshell, the beautifully functional look and feel of Mac OS X."
I think it's safe to say that Quartz is both the windowing system and its API. Aqua is the Mac OS X standard interface elements, their style, and their behavior as implemented with Quartz and the Interface Builder.
- MFN
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
I recently wanted to buy a PowerBook G3 but did not have the 1200 Bucks that they are currently selling for. Solution. I got the parts in bits over Ebay and built one. I got Mac repair guides as well to help me with the instalation (all off ebay) and WAM for 500 bucks I got a brand new laptop and the satisfaction of building my own computer.
I've got 5 episodes of season 2 as mpegs - if Junis fires up his C64 he's welcome to download them on his 1200 baud modem.
microATX Mainboard 236mm x 172mm ( 9"3 x 6"8 )
up to Dual MPC 7450 G4 PowerPC® / 2 MB Cache at state of the art speedgrades
maximum 2GB extension by availibility of modules
integrated
just send me $500 and I'll sent you some diverse items.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
The hippies round here use bio-diesel.
I know cos I take 25 liters out of the 1000 a month the co-op buys.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Yeah, you can buy stuff from Shreve, if you want to pay $65 for a used, old, mouse... I think getting stuff off of eBay is probably more cost efficient.
Shreve and Sun remanufacturing are quite expensive, charging more for parts than you can find entire working systems for on ebay.
What I do have a problem with is when certain types go out on their own to make a biofuel that claims to be a fuel but is such low quality that it puts the "real" biofuel market in a bad light. This is exactly what happened in the parent's example in the UK (Wales). The news media all over the world treated these people as wacky (true) but then also slammed the principle behind trying to make biofuel (not good).
In case you haven't figured it out yet I am in this industry and working to get general acceptance (and usage) by the masses. Cranks like these people who ruin engines only give ammunition to those that are afraid of biofuels.
--
dman123 forever!
Filtering out the -1s and 0s since 1999.
So your motives mean nothing to me 8)
Want to stop the war in Iraq and reduce the stranglehold?
Want to reduce the carcinogens?
Like the smell of fish and chips?
Use Biodiesel
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Actually the equipment needed to do this is expensive. The real killer is soldering the chips to the board. With enough training, you can hand-solder and troubleshoot 240pin PLCs (even good professionals can't solder every pin right the first time). Unfortunatly, soldering BGAs and other "lead on the bottom" requires IR soldering (read megabucks).
Assuming you find your PPC, chipset, and memory slots all solderable, you will need a circuit board. This is the easy part. There are a few free schematic capture programs that work (ussually with 4x6" boards or smaller). Lastly, you will need to make the board, this should cost several hundred dollers, but you should get 4-6 (bare) boards. Have fun soldering.
Note that this has been done for ARM chips of various types, I even think that you can buy inexpensive bare boards for one of them (someone went ahead and bougt ~100 where the price drops off dramatically).
An EE (well this one, anyway) could draw out the schematic in his sleep (especially leaving out all the bells and whistles that won't fit in 4x6" or you don't feel like soldering). Finding the parts always takes longer (though not as long as getting it through ISO-9000). Actual fabrication (especially on a small scale) is something else.
Oh, and buying chips 1 at a time through digi-key ain't cheap either.
Wumpus
From Apple: "Aqua is the new user interface introduced with Mac OS X. Mac OS X builds on the ease-of-use tradition of Mac OS 9, while providing a simpler, superior user experience. Aqua is the "spirit" of Mac OS X. It's a fresh and fun complement to Apple's innovative hardware design. Aqua makes use of color, transparency, and animation to enhance usability. It also delivers some new behaviors that make using a Macintosh even more fun and satisfying for all users, from computer novices to professionals."
Aqua is the OS X user interface which to me means that it includes the windowing system.
Quartz is part of the graphics system and includes a window manager, but OpenGL, Quicktime, and Quickdraw are also still there in the graphics system. It's possible to do graphics in OS X without using Quartz.
Sorry for not being ulta-precise in my original message, but I still mean to refer to Aqua. Aqua is the entire user interface (the windowing system is a subset of the user interface). I do not mean to refer to Quartz because I do not wish to exclude Quicktime, OpenGL, the Application Kit, and other useful parts of OS X.
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
**RANT**
...and a whole bunch of people pretending to be experts and just talking out of their ass.
Ya know, no one answered my original message... there has just been arguments over mac ROMS should be called open firmware and Aqua and other silly little nits.
Sometimes Mac people are really assholes.
I'm sure some Mac Zealots will now mod me down to -30 for this comment... I wish they would all just go back to macslash and stop destroying the discussions over here at slashdot. Enough with the mindless cheerleading already!
harumph!
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
It's possible to do graphics in OS X without using Quartz.
I'd be very surprised if that's the case! Quartz interfaces with the I/O Kit, which is what talks to the hardware. It provides the drawing context for everything that appears on the display.
Aqua is the entire user interface (the windowing system is a subset of the user interface).
Sorry to be difficult, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. If you count the Core Graphic Services as part of Quartz (Apple does), then OpenGL, Quicktime and [Carbon] Quickdraw all depend on Quartz. Ars Technica has a good overview of the relationships.
This is only relevant because you could replace Aqua with a different interface using Quartz. Without Quartz, there is no Aqua. The reverse isn't true.
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
Easy there! I agree that some people can be really rude, and throw more heat than light. Just ignore the assholes, and try to filter the signal out of the noise. I'm certainly no expert, but in the spirit of mutual enlightenment, I'm trying to share what I've learned from Apple's site.
Ya know, no one answered my original message...
Looking over the thread, I thought most of your questions were answered (some rudely)...
Q: If you could get Darwin running on such a homemade PowerPC (not made from old Mac parts, but built from 'scratch')... could you then take the pre-compiled parts of aqua out of Mac OS X and run this on your homemade powerpc computer?
A: If Darwin runs, Quartz and Aqua should run too. They're basically just a bunch of PPC libraries and some services (a.k.a. system routines).
Q: Doesn't darwin handle all of the interaction directly with the hardware?
A: Yes, through the I/O Kit. The drivers are abstracted through it.
Q: If the aqua binaries can run on your homemade powerpc, shouldn't everything work just fine?
A: Theoretically, yes. No guarantees until someone tries it and makes it work.
Q: what if you wrote a powerPC emulator to run on Darwin-x86. Could you then run Mac OS X with the emulator even though you didn't have the Mac ROMs?
A: Since Mac ROMs aren't necessary to run Mac OS X, it should work. Old World machines will still have the ROMs, but no OS X system routines are contained in ROM.
Q: what if you got Darwin running on an x86 chip with a PowerPC emulator? Could you, theoretically, get aqua to run on such a system?
A: If you got Darwin running and you can emulate PPC instructions in the proper environment (cf. Mac-on-Linux), Aqua would probably run just fine.
Q: Does OS X access the Mac ROMS directly or does it go through Darwin?
A: OS X (including Darwin) doesn't access the ROMs or Open Firmware after booting. Open Firmware just does a self-test, initializes devices, and builds a device tree. Then it passes control to BootX, which starts the kernel and drivers. Firmware is then out of the picture.
Hope this helps! I'm still learning too, and I would love to try to get OS X running on a home-built PPC.
- MFN
There are 10 types of people in this world, those who can count in binary and those who can't.
Heh heh! I always thought the world was divided into two groups: "population bifurcators" and "non-population bifurcators." :)
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
If you'd followed stories on OS NEWS you would be aware that there are at least two available (or close to being available):
The AmigaOneSE and the Pegasus.
Both are to be shown at the WOASE show in the UK this weekend.
Look for the story on http://amiga.org
and on http://ann.lu
As well as the OS' being developed for these, BOTH boards run Linux.
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
At the WOASE Show in the UK THIS weekend, there are two PPC Mobos to be shown:
o Thendic France (With the bplan Pegasos and MorphOS)
o AmigaOne and OS4
AND, both also run Linux!
.
(David Bowman, EVA near HUGE Monolithic Win-PC in orbit around Jupiter) "My God - its full of Malware!"
I finally found the developer document I was looking for... this is a much more detailed description of how Mac OS X does its windowing. Evidently the window server's system interface is being kept private at the moment. :(
- MFN
"Slow down, Cowboy! It has been 3 years, 7 months and 26 days since you last successfully posted a comment."
Nice site. Now if I could find something the like for Europe, better yet for Switzerland...
Leandro Guimarães Faria Corcete DUTRA
DA, DBA, SysAdmin, Data Modeller
GNU Project, Debian GNU/Lin