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EU Studies Linux Migration

LeftOfCentre writes "The Register reports that the European Commision, the executive arm of the 380 million population European Union, has decided to spend 250,000 Euros on studying how government computers in EU states could be migrated to Linux and open source."

339 comments

  1. Let's wait by spacefight · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I bet 100 that Microsoft or similar companies will put a lot more than 250'000 into a study _against_ a Linux Migration as we've seen quite a lot in the past.

    1. Re:Let's wait by Cutriss · · Score: 2

      Ha...I've never seen that site before. Out of curiosity, I went hunting for the WHOIS records...

      [whois.opensrs.net] Registrant: j0n katz 1313 Mockingbird Lane Collierville, TN 38017 US Domain Name: BASHDOT.ORG Administrative Contact: katz, j0n j0nkatz@hotmail.com 1313 Mockingbird Lane Collierville, TN 38017 US +1.5555555 Technical Contact: Domain, Direct dnstech@domaindirect.com 96 Mowat Avenue Toronto, ON M6K 3M1 CA +1.4165350123 Fax: +1.4165312516
      ------------------
      Someone obviously has a sense of humor around here... :)

      --
      "Mod, mod, mod...and another troll bites the dust."
    2. Re:Let's wait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      bashdot.org doesn't render properly on my open source browser.

      So Bill, how am I supposed to follow your instructions on how to take Linux off of my computer?

      Typical M$ b.s.

  2. Fasibility Study Only - As yet.... by anonymous+cupboard · · Score: 5, Interesting
    This is currently only a feasibilty study, and I gather the Germans in particular with thir own initiatives are quite strongly behind this.

    However, many persons in the EU are aware of the perils of depending upon a single vendor and their propietary formats, and also how ill-served we are when pushing documents around between PCs configured for different languages.

    1. Re:Fasibility Study Only - As yet.... by plugger · · Score: 5, Informative

      Police in the UK are also piloting a Linux desktop system. Reported here.

    2. Re:Fasibility Study Only - As yet.... by pellaeon · · Score: 1

      Under the name Polinux perhaps? :-)

      (stupid 20 second rule, grmbl, grmbl)

      --
      -- /bin/coffee missing. universe halted.
    3. Re:Fasibility Study Only - As yet.... by anonymous+cupboard · · Score: 2

      AFAIK, it is just a thin client. What is on their servers?

    4. Re: Fasibility Study Only - As yet.... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > Police in the UK are also piloting a Linux desktop system.

      Whereas in the USA the DoJ is Pilateing anything that competes with Windows.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    5. Re:Fasibility Study Only - As yet.... by plugger · · Score: 1

      There isn't too much detail in the presentation, but since windows servers are described as legacy systems, I'd guess there is a mix.

  3. Easy solution. . . by cordsie · · Score: 5, Funny
    EU Studies Linux Migration

    Just wait until it flies back north, then get out the hunting rifles.

  4. Gyros by mary_will_grow · · Score: 1, Funny

    Stop the presses, 250,000 euros. :)

    Microsoft's next step: Economic brutality to devalue the euro, decreasing the amount of research they can accomplish.

    hehehe. jeez its probably almost true.

    --
    Why stick up for big business?
    1. Re:Gyros by Isle · · Score: 2

      I know this is just a bad joke. But when currencies devalutate so does the prices and the cost of work. So assuming they are doing the research in EU, they could still get the same work for for the same amount of money, even if the money was devaluated.

  5. It's not the computers that need migration... by mvdw · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Migrating computers is easy enough - the hard part is migrating users.

    1. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by GnomeKing · · Score: 3, Insightful

      One the whole, users will use whatever they are given

      It "just goes with the job"
      Sure, its great if you already have experience with the particular OS or the particular application that your using - but usually you just have to get used to what is there

      The big question is whether the cost saved by going OSS is outweighed by the cost of users becoming sufficiently effective on the new platform

    2. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by mvdw · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The big question is whether the cost saved by going OSS is outweighed by the cost of users becoming sufficiently effective on the new platform
      And there's the rub. Philosophical issues aside, if it costs more than the commercial OS and apps to retrain the users in the "new" OS (including loss of productivity while in transition), it's a no-brainer on a commercial level - the status quo will always be chosen.
      Considering the (substantial) discounts offered to major companies using commercial software, I don't see that changing any time soon, unfortunately.

    3. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      My experience is that companies conveniently forget retraining costs associated from moving from one version of a microsoft product to another.

    4. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by EvilAlien · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The great thing about business or government or anywhere that isn't the users' home... "Use this computer. Or you're fired".

      Migrating users isn't that difficult, basic desktop usage of Windows, MacOS or Linux is mostly portable. Anyone who can't learn how to do very basic things on another OS (I'm not talking about system administration here, but typing and printing memos) doesn't deserve their job. Sometimes people just have to learn and adapt to change, it is one of the requirements of being a living thing.

      --
      perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
    5. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by mvdw · · Score: 1

      My experience is that companies conveniently forget retraining costs associated from moving from one version of a microsoft product to another.

      Well that's another issue, but unfortunately the PHB's that sign the [cheques|checks] don't see a difference between Office 97, Office 2000 and Office XP -- (aside) MS's "consistent" numbering scheme of using years for the version didn't last long, did it?

    6. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      BS, users bitch and complain to their managers untill thay are given what they want. Where I work, we supply PCs, ms office, win98, and Palms (How the IT department got into supporting pims is beyond me), but there are users who demand Macs, Win XP, Lotus, Jornadas . . . Before long, their managers have complained to the company president, or ceo, and we have to support something new (And the user had better have the same functionality as everyone else)

    7. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by CaptainZapp · · Score: 2
      Considering the (substantial) discounts offered to major companies using commercial software, I don't see that changing any time soon, unfortunately.

      I could name you half a dozen companies (partially large ones) that are really, really pissed off with Microsoft and Licensing 6.0.

      If you do not want to upgrade to the latest and greatest (and buggiest) every two years this deal smells like a rat, looks like a rat and is a rat.

      Companies above all want predictability. By making costs unpredictable with such gimmicks due to Steve "Fester" Balmers $ per desktop mantra and licensing terms, which stop short of the obligation never, ever to masturbate again quite a few CIOs are seriously looking into free software as an alternative.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    8. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by mvdw · · Score: 1

      Anyone who can't learn how to do very basic things on another OS [...] doesn't deserve their job.

      True enough, but the average user is reluctant to change, and this reluctance is borne out in the cost associated with an enterprise-wide migration to a different platform. The cost is what those who make the decision see - this cost is in this year's bottom line, and is hard to justify as a tangible cost-saver over a longer time. Much easier to keep paying the license fee...

    9. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What retraining costs would that be? Say what you may about Microsoft but the one they have is consistency. All of their applications have a similar look and feel even between versions. You might not like that look and feel but it is very easy to jump from Office 95 to 97 to 2000 and to XP. The same goes for Windows. Most people complain that new versions of Office isn't different enough to even make upgrading worth it and you are claiming that the versions are that dramatically different that training is required? I think maybe you need to get your trolling straight.

    10. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by EvilAlien · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Normally, I'd agree. However, I work in a large corporate environment, and I see the gradual shift away from expensive (in terms of license fees) proprietary/commercial applications and operating systems. Larger organizations are embracing Open Source solutions right down the the desktop. They might be arguably expensive in terms of peoples' time at the outset, however that type of soft cost is easy to ignore next to a purchase order for another year of Microsoft or HP licenses, for example. Its fun watching upper managers grimace when they are confronted with another set of license fees... "didn't we already pay for this?!"... I've got some IT people seriously looking at SuSE OpenExchange, as an example. I think organizations are ready to look at change, it is not all about maintaining the status quo anymore.

      People will learn... it is what we do, and I think it is time that the "people are resistant to chance" problem wasn't given so much credence. Its time to force people to chance, open their minds, and think outside the box. Change happens, and I see no reason to shield the change-phobic from that fact.

      --
      perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
    11. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by div_2n · · Score: 2

      I don't know what large corporate environment you work in, but if I were to take that approach, I would be the one to get fired.

      Contrary to the belief of most IT workers, IT's job is NOT to stand up high and hand down orders on what technology users must use. Sure, you can take this approach, but that isn't really helpful to users.

      IT's job should be to listen to the needs of users and find the tool that works best for them considering all sides.

      If you come to the conclusion that it would be in their best interest to switch to open source, then make a plan to move them there. Develop a phased plan that includes user training and migration of their skillset.

      I am willing to bet a lot of money that if you start throwing users to the wolves and tell them to deal with it then you are going to find your boss throwing you to the wolves of unemployment.

    12. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by ArtDent · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Really? You must be using a different Office XP from the one I've been battling with lately. I *thought* that the simplicity of the UI (relative to the size of the feature set, of course) and its consistency across versions (since the Word 6 era, at least) had been Office's greatest recommendation.

      Then I met XP. Why does the interface look completely different...and feel as sluggish as Mozilla M18? Why are things that used to be dialog boxes now in these weird Window-embedded pallette things that cause the view of my document to resize? Speaking of that, what's with the window automaticlaly resizing to do battle with the help window, anyway? Does that actually work for anyone else (I frequently get a mostly blank help window with the left-most 15 pixels or so of what's supposed to be its content peeking in on the right side).

      The old, simple, clean feeling is gone. Now there's all kinds of freaky interface features that obviously "seemed like a good idea at the time."

      I'm not sure how much difficulty all of the changes would cause the mystical "typical user." For the people who accomplish a task by repeating a series of memorized mouse clicks/key strokes, these changes would be trouble.

    13. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by CaptainZapp · · Score: 3, Funny
      (I frequently get a mostly blank help window with the left-most 15 pixels or so of what's supposed to be its content peeking in on the right side).

      They crippled the help facility intentionally in order to sell you a Clippy License.

      You see, retiring Clippy was only an evil trick in order to re-invent him as clippy.XP(tm) and then licensing it for 3.95$ per month as an add-on.

      In order for this diabolical plan to work Microsoft first has to render the help facility from "useless" to "abyssimal".

      Hope this helps...

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    14. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Rande · · Score: 2, Insightful
      *blink* When has IT ever been able to stand on high and say what users will use - it's the people in the board room who make deals with M$, IBM, Sun etc who decide what people will have on their desktops. And the only way to alter that decision is to come up with a 50 page document spelling out 'it's technically impossible'.


      Many fully working systems have been thrown out and replaced by less functional and more buggy systems because the Board made a deal with a big company/CEO is screwing the Sales Rep.


      Open Source is often only getting into companies 'through the back door' as it were, because getting free software in doesn't require a sign off from the financial director.

    15. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by torboth · · Score: 1

      The problem with XP as with many bits of software that microsoft has produced over the years (dare I mention VB) is that Microsoft doesnt like people who know how to use computers (unless you use their enterprise software where you need an MS degree). So they make it all cutesy, make it maybe 10% easier to do 20% of things and about 50% more difficutl to do the other 80%.

      If you know what your doing with a Windows PC microsoft will try to make you learn all over again.

      Windows 2000 made me like Microsoft - Windows XP is quickly turning me off them.

    16. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by nightsweat · · Score: 1

      I want to work where you work. My users are Microsoft to the bone.

      --

      the major advances in civilization are processes which all but wreck the societies in which they occur - A.N. White
    17. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, you are basically admitting that your not as smart as you thought you were?

    18. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Say what you may about Microsoft but the one they have is consistency.

      Windows NT3.51, Windows NT4/2000, Windows XP. Three different user interfaces in one decade. That is not consistent, sorry.

    19. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by kavau · · Score: 1
      The great thing about business or government or anywhere that isn't the users' home... "Use this computer. Or you're fired".

      That's why I love working in a university research lab. The first question I was asked when starting work here: "Do you want Windows or Linux on your computer?"

    20. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by The_Sock · · Score: 1


      which stop short of the obligation never, ever to masturbate again


      The next version will save a lot of kittens at least.

      --
      For a good time call www.sawkie.com
    21. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by mpe · · Score: 2

      So they make it all cutesy, make it maybe 10% easier to do 20% of things and about 50% more difficutl to do the other 80%.

      Is it even 10%, one problem with all the cutesy animation is that it can make a 1G machine feel like it's runing at about 10M.

    22. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Sentry21 · · Score: 2

      The great thing about business or government or anywhere that isn't the users' home... "Use this computer. Or you're fired".

      A friend of mine was telling me about how her university was trying to migrate the graphics arts and suchforth staff to IBM PCs from Macs. No one wanted to try, so when they got a new staff member in, they convinced them to try. After a few weeks, they gathered everyone together to hear her testimonial.

      It basically went something like 'I hate my job, I hate IBM, I want a new computer or a new job.' Suffice to say, no one else switched.

      Never underestimate the willingness of skilled professionals to tell you where to go. They are paid to do what they do best, and if they can't use the tools that let them do that, they'll go somewhere they can.

      --Dan

    23. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      While you are right that IT doesn't hand down the decisions from on high, you are wrong that it gets its directives from the users. The users don't have much of a say in what they have to use. IT gets told by MANAGEMENT what to use, just like the users do.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    24. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      Anyone who can't learn how to do very basic things on another OS

      You are operating under the false premise that ability is the only thing that would make someone stuborn to switch. There's also preference. I *could* give up using linux and do all my programming in Windows. The last time I programmed on windows was back in Win 3.1 so I'd have to learn a lot again, but I'm fully confident in my *ability* to do so if I had to. But I don't *want* to have to, and I would consider it counterproductive.
      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    25. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why does the interface look completely different...and feel as sluggish as Mozilla M18?

      Jelly beans man, jelly beans

    26. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by EvilAlien · · Score: 2
      As another comment said, this isn't the decision of IT. Most IT workers will want to stay with Microsoft, it is what they know, what they have certs in, and what they find easy. Most IT workers are not extremely clued in Open Source solutions... at least in my experience. It is upper management's job to make these decisions.

      I know very well that IT cannot stand on high and pass down decisions. The best decisions can be impossible to implement, despite there being no compelling reason against implementation, simply because some executive doesn't like the idea. That is real life. However, when the executives trying to stop the hemoraging of money from the corporate coffers realize that there are substantial cost savings with another solution will not hesitate to do exactly what you describe. However, they have the authority and responsibility to make those decisions for the good of the organization, NOT the good of the workers unwilling or unable to learn new skills.

      --
      perl -e 'print $i=pack(c5, (41*2), sqrt(7056), (unpack(c,H)-2), oct(115), 10)'
    27. Re: It's not the computers that need migration... by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > Migrating computers is easy enough - the hard part is migrating users.

      Not so. If you migrate the computers, the users will find themselves migrated as soon as they show up for work the next morning.

      It's keeping them happy that's the hard part.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    28. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most IT workers will want to stay with Microsoft, it is what they know, what they have certs in, and what they find easy. Most IT workers are not extremely clued in Open Source solutions

      Strangely the ones that are all seem to be making 50k+ a year doing admin type work.

      Isn't that weird?

    29. Re:It's not the computers that need migration... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I always make the argument "Windows didn't exist 10 years ago, if 10 years makes tradition then this buisness surely is doomed", that normally shuts up any dissenters using that arugment.

      The solution is to roll out OSS solutions where they are apropriate. MS solutions where they are apropriate. Heavy Iron when apropriate. Macs when apropriate. They all have their places, the problem is from '95-'02 paper monkeys tried to replace all of them with MS.

      At my current job we have one w2K server (properly configured, I checked -- several times) that crashes 3 times a day due to memory leaks from a vendors program (the OS crashes, we have to have an ops person run back and reboot it). Stuff like this is why the managment is starting to dislike windows (the windows licenses for this particular machine total several K if IIRC).

  6. Torn by dnoyeb · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    As much as I hate M$ this will eventually impact American jobs and world dominance right?

    Or is M$ already engineered in India like all software seems to be headed?

    1. Re:Torn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, Linux gives the world freedom.

    2. Re:Torn by triptolemeus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We all know that opensource comes into two forms of free: free as in beer and free as in speech.

      Migrating to Linux doesn't mean that Companies can not make money on the products sold. Looked at it from a better perspective it increases the market place, since the opensourced scripts (free as in speech) can be maintained by any company, thus allowing the one that provides the best solution to the current problem to sell it.

      Look at companies like Red Hat and Suse already doing this. They get money from the government to make opensourced software.

      So yes, it will take jobs in the US if Suse does a better job than Red Hat. And as far as I'm concerned M$ can make a Linux distro and Linux solutions as well.

      --
      The site where: "I'm right, as long as you ignore the things that prove me wrong", became a valid method of debate.
    3. Re:Torn by Duds · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Depends how many jobs in America would be picked up by the commercial Linux sector.

      Although aren't most of them european anyway?

    4. Re:Torn by SerpentMage · · Score: 2

      Huh?

      So how come American companies could not develop Open Source. Last I remember Redhat is one of the big Linux sellers. And another company called IBM was making big beats with Linux. And where are they located? North Carolina and New York, both of which are small states part of the European Union.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    5. Re:Torn by jellomizer · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not Nessarly. Microsoft is a global company most of the jobs for the products sold in europe are the europieans. Sales Reps, Support People, Custom Application Developers, most of them will be Europians. Most of the american Jobs will be programmers who will still be working to sell to americans customers (You may loose a fiew jobs due to smaller profit margens) But they still need a programer base to create there "Software". The higher upps may feel the burn more then the ordanry jobs but they are not really that much help on the echonomy because they find ways to bypass most of their taxes.
      You can consider it an other way. The money the EU saves will allow them to buy more products some of them american. Good echonomy is not how much money a county has but how much of it is moving from hand to hand.

      --
      If something is so important that you feel the need to post it on the internet... It probably isn't that important.
    6. Re:Torn by ddriver · · Score: 1

      Because MS is not about having a good product. It is about felching as much money as the people can stand to pay with the least amount of effort.

      --
      I found my inner child, then I got caught abusing it...
    7. Re:Torn by Tharsis · · Score: 2

      Why is the EU undemocratic? I can vote for european parties, can't I..

    8. Re:Torn by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thats why I cant use a spell checker they keep on crashing me.

  7. Next on the Discovery Channel by MosesJones · · Score: 5, Funny

    Watch as the Elegant Linux penguins migrate from Finland down into central Europe for the harsh winter ahead. Linux Penguins are unusual as the only northen hemisphere penguins in the wild, this documentary shows they unusual mating dances and how they manage to move their young thousands of miles by transporting them as small ISO images.

    Truely one of natures great wonders.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:Next on the Discovery Channel by Isle · · Score: 2

      Hmm.. Yes, I was considering that as well. If penguins migrate south in the winter; where do they migrate to? Considering that they live on the southpole!

  8. Fantastic idea by captainclever · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think more and more business' will be considering this, faced with the soaring costs and big-brother-esque EULA clauses that go hand in hand with the likes of windows/office etc. Maybe this will cause the number of jobs in the intustry to soar, esp regarding Linux know-how. All in all this seems to be a good thing :)

    --
    Last.fm - join the social music revolution
  9. We're almost there. by serial+frame · · Score: 1

    This is the perfect place for open-source software in the government, compared to, say, branches of the armed forces.

    Even though the transititon is probably more of a money issue than an advocacy one, the pyramid effect might just trickle down and help us out in the long run, if they're satisfied with Linux desktops. Who says the government won't pitch in?

    --

    -
    And the Angel said unto me, "These are the cries of the carrots! The cries of the carrots!"
    1. Re:We're almost there. by rppp01 · · Score: 1

      Oh man, I thought we learned from the Trickle Down Theory in the 80s.

      --
      They stuck me in an institution, said it was the only solution, to...protect me from the enemy, myself
    2. Re:We're almost there. by marga · · Score: 1

      When the government considers switching from propietary software to open source software, the money is not the only issue.

      For instance, the information the government has about the people has to be well protected and persistent. I would say that having it in any MS Office format (.doc, .xls, Access db) is neither secure nor persistent. And as a citizen I demand that my government takes care of this.

      Also, it's important that everyone can have access to the code, to ensure that no Big Company is going to access that data and manipulate it for their convenience.

      When it comes to companies rather than the government, I'd agree it's a matter of money. But when the civil rights are being questioned, then more important issues are the priority.

      --
      Margarita Manterola.
  10. This is the EU not the US... by MosesJones · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The EU has no love are large US Companies, they are after all the competition. There is less lobbying in the EU (though loads of corruption) and at the end of the day do you think that the French, Germans, Italians, Spanish etc etc would prefer to see a US Monopoly or something else ?

    Or put it another way. If MS had been French, the DoJ would have remedied them out of existence by now.

    --
    An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
    1. Re:This is the EU not the US... by pubjames · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is less lobbying in the EU (though loads of corruption)

      That's right. There's much more corruption in the EU than the USA. That's because the EU doesn't have lots of sensible mechanisms in place to prevent giant corporations and friends of those in power from influencing policy in the way the USA does.

      (Yes, more sarcasm!)

    2. Re:This is the EU not the US... by spacefight · · Score: 1

      He didn't say that the EU has more corruption than the USA. Ok, noone beats the italians ;)

    3. Re:This is the EU not the US... by oreilco · · Score: 5, Funny

      Corruption / Lobbying ... it's just a spelling difference.

    4. Re:This is the EU not the US... by tubs · · Score: 2, Interesting
      When all the EU comissioners resign due to corruption then your comment doesn't seem quite so sarcastic ....

      Honestly they did

      --

      try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die

    5. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Italians aren't corrupt. They are just run by the Mob. In order for something to be corrupt there would have to been something else not corrupt to judge against. Ok maybe not all Italy but take a trip to Sicily and you tell me.

    6. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      No, if MS had been French, they would have surrendered to the DOJ at the first hint of a lawsuit.

    7. Re:This is the EU not the US... by csteinle · · Score: 1

      Apparently the Greeks do. 44th in a list of corruption in the UK papers today, and last of the EU member states.

    8. Re:This is the EU not the US... by spacefight · · Score: 1

      Heh what? Need some moussaka? I make good price for you my friend ;-)

    9. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surely you mean Italian?

      Actually, kudos to the Italian people for being unwilling to die for fascism.

    10. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Troll

      You have no clue. I have done business with folks in the EU. When it comes to big dumb government and inbred corruption, the USA is clearly ranked amateur status in comparison. It's is horrible over there to anyone with even a shred of respect for economic freedoms.

    11. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Isle · · Score: 2

      No corruption is wider:
      Lobby => Corruption
      Corruption !=> Lobbyism

      Btw. The European Commision like the european parliament is bit special, since most people hate when they interfer with the local governments. Therefore the more pet projects they launch that leads nowhere, the less actual work is done, and thus the more popular they are.

      The EU politicians three step road to profit and popularity:
      1. Scratch someones pet idea
      2. Let it rot, and play golf
      3. PROFIT!

    12. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Didn't the italians have a former porn star in a high-power seat?

    13. Re:This is the EU not the US... by kavau · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Corruption / Lobbying ... it's just a spelling difference.

      With a single difference: Lobbying is legal, corruption is not. Of course you could also say:

      United States - the only country where corruption is legal!

    14. Re:This is the EU not the US... by cylcyl · · Score: 1

      I thought EU stood for Estados Unidos and is the United States in Spanish ;-)

    15. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're thinking of Ronald Reagan.

    16. Re:This is the EU not the US... by LeftOfCentre · · Score: 1

      The Bribery Index says otherwise.

    17. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, he means that France has a history of being occupied when even a single soldier decides to cross the French border. (Well, maybe not one, but two is certainly sufficient) For example, in both World Wars, France succeeded in being overwhelmed by Germany. Between World War I and World War II, France devoted considerable effort to building defenses against Germany (e.g. the infamous Maginot line), and still they were occupied very quickly.

    18. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Drogo+Knotwise · · Score: 1

      Not at all. Corruption enriches politicians, lobbying empowers them.

      It's two different vices.

    19. Re:This is the EU not the US... by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 3, Informative
      Ciccolena was elected. Under proportional representation with (at a guess) 500 seats in the parliament, this would require around 0.2% of the electorate voting for her.

      0.2% is about as much influence as she had in parliament - it was good as a publicity stunt but not much else.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
  11. Dollar doldrums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative
    1st November: 1 == $0.9974.

    Take that.

    1. Re:Dollar doldrums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What the fuck does the president have to do with the value of the US$ vs the Euro? Or are you talking about Dickhead Clinton who left the country falling in the shitter? You also probably don't realize that the Euro started as equal to $1. That was the idea.

    2. Re:Dollar doldrums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And it is currently 0.26 cents off that mark. Whooop-dee-doo

    3. Re:Dollar doldrums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You love dubya, don't you? It must really tear you up inside to know that the rest of the world is laughing at him.

      and you

    4. Re:Dollar doldrums by owenb · · Score: 2, Informative

      Really? The Euro started as $1.18. What makes you think everything revolves around the USA?

    5. Re:Dollar doldrums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Rarely do Americans measure themselves agains European standards whereas in Europe it's the norm to be obsessed with proclaiming European superiority over the US--a sure sign that it's not.

    6. Re:Dollar doldrums by El+Cabri · · Score: 2

      maybe in 10 years the Americans will still boast that the euro "started" at $1.18. It actually had this ridiculously overpriced rate for only a month or so. The euro spent actually two years of its existence at the ridiculously UNDERprices rate of $0.85, and the markets have put it back where it belongs : around $1, oscillating around $.98 to be precise. This is its fair price since you can buy roughly the same with 1000EUR in Europe as you can buy with $1000 in the US. So the long days of the strong dollars are over.

    7. Re:Dollar doldrums by owenb · · Score: 1

      I'm not claiming European superiority over America, or measuring Europe against US standards. What made you think I was? In fact I was countering an argument that said Europe did just that. I'm just refuting the claim that the Euro was 'designed' to start at parity with the Dollar.

    8. Re:Dollar doldrums by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are so full of it. I have lived in both Europe and the US and the US is far cheaper. For most things, with few exceptions (like bread and beer) $1000 in the US will go much further than 1000 Euros.

    9. Re:Dollar doldrums by opkool · · Score: 2

      you can buy roughly the same with 1000EUR in Europe as you can buy with $1000 in the US

      Actualy, with 1000 EUR you can buy goods or services that can cost you around $1600 in the US.

      Three words: cost of living.

      Repeat after me "In Europe, with 22000 EUR/year you can live as with $45000/year in the US"

      Been there, done that.

  12. Europe out in front again... by Broken+Bottle · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Does anyone else get the impression that this will be yet another area where, yet again, Europe is going to be WAY out in front of the US. Europe and progressive social policy (or, if you live there, I guess you'd just call it "social policy" :) ) are practically synonymous and the US is once again made to look like a country run by bankers... Government is a public institution. Therefore, in my mind, it makes perfect sense for a government (a democratic one at least) to setup it's IT infrastructure based around a platform created by the people for the people rather than a platform that lines the pockets of a monlithic corporation (and, in this case, a foreign one at that).

    Chris

    1. Re:Europe out in front again... by MrFredBloggs · · Score: 1

      "the US is once again made to look like a country run by bankers"

      Sure. Governments are often toppled in a revolution and made accountable to the public, but the drift in the other direction is slow and continuous.

    2. Re:Europe out in front again... by CaptainZapp · · Score: 1
      Europe and progressive social policy (or, if you live there, I guess you'd just call it "social policy" :) )

      We like to refer to it as common sense

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    3. Re:Europe out in front again... by jocks · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have to agree with you. When I was a child, we looked to the US as a model of freedom and liberty, you could do SO much more in the US than in the UK and Europe.

      Now, to my mind, I would rather live in Europe because I have more freedom of speech, more liberty and more protection from world dominating corporates.

      The trials of OJ Simpson and Bill Clinton have demonstrated that even the law can be bought in the US, in the UK we have imprisoned two Lords just for lying in court (perjury).

      We have a social policy that is steadily improving, our system is not perfect in many, many ways but it is moving in the right direction.

      I am, however, an optimist and I fully expect the USA to finally grasp the importance of good Environmental Policy (something that will take many decades to happen with current social attitude), good attitude towards liberty (by empowering the people again and taking the whip from the corporates hands) and moving towards the founding principles of the nation...
      "By the people. For the people." For as long as Disney keeps copyright on Mickey Mouse(tm)(R)(c) the people will be impovrished.

      Good luck to you all!

    4. Re:Europe out in front again... by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Insightful
      ...yet again, Europe is going to be WAY out in front of the US.

      Interesting how "someplace else" is always better. In the USA, new products and unusual ideas refer to a European origin. In Brasil, the origin is the USA.

      In France, where do they say a new herbal cure comes from? In Japan, what origin do radical clothing or ideas claim? How about Australia...other than from the other side of the country?

    5. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      I just don't understand that attitude.

      Why is it that you Europeans insist on seeing corporations as the ultimate evil whereas you turn a blind eye to the dirty tricks the governments play (and have always plahed)?

      How many wars have corporations started? How many cities have corporations razed down? How many prisoners have corporations tortured and executed?

      It is the goverment that controls the killing machine (the military and the police) and should therefore be treated like a dangerous wild animal: kept on a tight leash.

    6. Re:Europe out in front again... by Clansman · · Score: 2, Informative

      --> "Last time I checked, even German economical growth is grinding to halt and unemployment rates are on the rise. No small part of this can be attributed to the huge tax load on inviduals and companies as a deterrent to enterpreneurial spirit"

      Actually mostly to do with a) absorbing East Germany and the raw costs associated with that and b) struggling to meet the monetarist demands of the ECB and its rather deflationary "stability pact".

      One will even out over time and the other is likely to be junked within the next year or so ...

      And in what way does the UK not have a welfare state? It has a huge one (ooer).

    7. Re:Europe out in front again... by pubjames · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Of course we have the example of UK to show it is possible to transition from a welfare state to a free market.

      That's right. As a UK citizen I am proud of how the UK has lead the way with privitizing its public services. It's made the UK a much better place to live! What with the expensive public transport system that fails to run on time and a health service that is now one of the worst in Europe. And what joy it brought when The Post Office spent vast sums renaming itself "Consignia" to be more commercial, and then reverting back to "The Post Office". How jealous the rest of Europe must be!

    8. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It is the goverment that controls the killing machine (the military and the police) and should therefore be treated like a dangerous wild animal: kept on a tight leash.

      Don't worry, it is. And the leash is held by corporations and banks.

    9. Re:Europe out in front again... by Fig,+formerly+A.C. · · Score: 2
      How many prisoners have corporations tortured and executed?

      Bayer (the aspirin people) certainly did a lot of this during WW2.

      And when the corporations own the government then they are the ones orchestrating the evil, no?

      How many wars have corporations started? How many cities have corporations razed down?

      War is good for the economy, as long as it is on foriegn soil. Corporations make money during times of war. If a corporation could buy the government and start a war to help their bottom line, they would (and have).

      --
      Murphy was an optimist.
    10. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      as a UK citizen, you really should learn how to spell "privatising" properly.

    11. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Believe me, as a French national the rest of Europe is jealous of the UK. Even when your economy is slow, your unemployment rate is half that of the rest of Europe. Sure, privatisation f$#$%ed up a few things, but that was because it was poorly done in some cases. There are partially private rail companies in Asia that are profitable. Anyway, in general, the english have it better than we do.

    12. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      Believe me, as a French national the rest of Europe is jealous of the UK.

      Belive me, as a Swedish national, the rest of Europe is not jealous of the UK. If employment means what it means in the US and UK, namely working multiple jobs and still not being able to sustain yourself and your family, and the unemployed here being better off than the employed there, then I'll stay clear from that blessing which leads to US/UK employment rates, thank you!

    13. Re:Europe out in front again... by HiThere · · Score: 2

      How can that be!
      Everyone knows that private enterprise is ALWAYS more efficient and pleasant than government bureaucracy! :-)

      Well, sometimes it is. But there are usually reasons why something was allocated to the government to do. Still, because of Parkinson's laws you will sometimes achieve better results by disbanding some particular function, and creating it again from scratch. (The waterfall development cycle?) But you need to do this periodically in any organization, governmental or not. And it rarely gets done, because the entrenched functionaries have enough clout to prevent it. Besides, there is the temporary increased cost, and the end result is still only a temporarily efficient organization, and that not for certain. (But this may be what is behind the "reorganizations" that everyone dreads so.)

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    14. Re:Europe out in front again... by El+Cabri · · Score: 2

      Croyez moi, les Anglais ont tout faux. Avez-vous idee du type de boulots qui efface les gens des statistiques du chomage ? Ca vous amuserait de toucher MOINS qu'une alloc chomage en France pour travailler 40 heures d'un boulot de merde pour lequel vous etes hyper-surqualifie et que vous n'avez pas choisi ? Quant a leurs services publics, ils sont merdiques aussi bien parce qu'ils sont prives (transports en commun) que parce qu'ils sont encore plus socialises qu'en France (sante).

      J'habite depuis un an aux US, et j'ai appris a cette occasion la naivete des diverses especes d'anglo-saxinophiles qui pullulent en France. Au fait, j'organise activement mon retour.

    15. Re:Europe out in front again... by uradu · · Score: 2

      > Actually mostly to do with
      > a) absorbing East Germany and the raw costs associated with that and
      > b) struggling to meet the monetarist demands of the ECB

      Those are mitigating factors for their sorry state, but they don't negate the fact that Germany is in serious need of economic reform. There are enormous barriers to entry into business (almost impossible to get small business loans), there are ridiculous outdated retail laws (such as on discounts and closing hours), and the power of unions is ludicrous. I view the US and Europe on the two extremes of a sensible middle ground. The US have serious social equity problems, while Europe has serious economic problems (which is slowly leading to social equity problems). Maybe a consolidation of the best features of both sides could result in a better overall social and economic model.

    16. Re:Europe out in front again... by Broken+Bottle · · Score: 1

      I don't know that government utilization of open source software is such an unusual idea, but exploring the idea with the intent to put it into practice is (for the most part). Yeah, I guess you could shoot down my thoughts with a " the grass is always greener on the other side" type response, but the fact of the matter is that progressive social policy gets TALKED about in the US while it is USED in western Europe. In my opinion, a democtratic government for the people, of the people, by the people has a nearly automatic obligation to explore more egalitarian ways of executing its duties and practices, if only for the fiscal value in this particular case.

      Chris

    17. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Really? Intelligent people who are aware of history and science and reality call it bullshit.

    18. Re:Europe out in front again... by Martin+S. · · Score: 2

      Of course we have the example of UK to show it is possible to transition from a welfare state to a free market.

      Yep it amazing what sort of economic growth can be achieved when government policy is directed to reducing unemployment instead of increasing it to provide a pool of cheap labour.

    19. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Believe me, as a Swedish national, you must be talking about another Sweden than the one I'm living in. Who can live off of one salary here? No one. In the US, at least the well educated can.

    20. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There actually is a surefire a way for you mindfucked ideologues to truly save the world. Tomorrow morning, get up from your beds, shower, dress, have breakfast, walk outside to the nearest busy street, and toss yourselves under the wheels of the next large bus or truck to come along. Stuff your big fat mother hen historically-disproven government uber-control once and for all.

    21. Re:Europe out in front again... by clickety6 · · Score: 2


      The people who moderated the parent post as "interesting" rather than funny may find this useful:

      sarcasm
      n : witty language used to convey insults or scorn; "he used sarcasm to upset his opponent"; "irony is wasted on the stupid" [syn: irony, satire, caustic remark]

      --
      ----------------------------------- My Other Sig Is Hilarious -----------------------------------
    22. Re:Europe out in front again... by Renaud · · Score: 1

      Why is it that you Europeans insist on seeing corporations as the ultimate evil whereas you turn a blind eye to the dirty tricks the governments play (and have always plahed)?

      In the current context where corporate scandals have never been so huge and have a very real impact on thousands of people's lives, in the context of the Seattle protests, in the context of former globalization advocates like Nobel prize Joseph Stiglitz admitting they were wrong, one could very legitimately reverse the question:

      Why is it that you Americans insist on seeing governement as the ultimate evil whereas you turn a blind eye to the dirty tricks the corporations play (and have always played)?

      How many wars have corporations started? How many cities have corporations razed down? How many prisoners have corporations tortured and executed?

      Nowadays, corporations and generally speaking, the capitalist system, give governments most of their reasons to start wars.
      Iraq ? It's pretty obvious that no evidence has been found, and they're even willing to *offer unlimited access to UN inspectors* to avoid war!
      But : 2nd largest oil producer.
      North Korea has just admitted having an advanced nuclear program, but you're leaving them alone. Hello McFly ?
      Afghanistan ? How convenient that the US chose to put Hamed Karzai at the head : he used to work for a californian oil company, and the US needs control of the pipeline that goes through the country.
      Alaska drilling, US refusal of the Kyoto protocol: Why would any sane government official act suicidal like that and refuse to grant a much-needed break to the planet, if it wasn't for corporate interests ?

      Will anyone here argue the fact that the MS problem would have been remedied long if only common sense applied (of course it's a fucking monopoly and it's stifling innovation !) and not corporate lobbying ?

      I could go on and on for ever. In this day and age, the vast majority of the pain people have to endure (be it no pensions because of stock market crash, child labor, polluted environment...) stems from environmental or economic catastrophes caused by corporations.
      *Not* by governmental abuse of power.
      It is truely beyond me why most Americans can't see that.

      It is the goverment that controls the killing machine (the military and the police) and should therefore be treated like a dangerous wild animal: kept on a tight leash.

      Hey dude, it's not like it's an uncontrollable animal if you live in a democracy. I can see your point applied to a dictatorship, but that's our countries we're talking about right ? Just vote! You have that wonderful right, you can sway things one way or another. Try that with corporate monopolies.
      As for the killing power, you seem to forget that the government gets their power and legitimacy from the *people* (well, in any real democracy where elected presidents are actually the ones in charge *evil grin*), whereas CEOs get their power from *shareholders*.
      And increasingly, giant corporations have as much or more influence on people's ability to live in security (which includes financial security, aka being able to feed one's family) than the government has.
      If you can't see the threat to democracy of having an unelected body, controlled only by the few who *own*, taking precedence over the governmental body elected by those who *are*, and affecting the lives of everybody, then I'm really pessimistic about the state of the US opinion ...(*sigh*)

      Oh yeah, if that matters, I'm French. :)

    23. Re:Europe out in front again... by olman · · Score: 2

      Looks like my original post was modded as a troll. I knew pointing out getting goverment contracts is not exactly exciting is going to irritate the thought police.

      In any case, you missed the point. There's much more to free market than making goverment services into private ones. Such as being able to live off your salary without goverment hand-outs. And not having the way people work decided by some guys you never ever elected. (that means unions).. Oh, and having services industry since you don't have to pay big-ass VAT and welfare tax every time you get a haircut. VAT is 22% here and the employers pay about tax 33% on top of the wage.

      A few good examples on the kind of Correct Thinking I mentioned, later in the thread.

    24. Re:Europe out in front again... by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 2

      Corporations routinely kill customers whenever it is profitable. Car manufacturers were not at all taking safety into consideration when they were building cars - until the 60s/70s sometime. Why? People did not realize car safetey could be done better - since the poeple had insufficient technical knowledge to improve safety belts, invent airbags and crumble zones.

      Corporations started the Gulf War - amongst others. Please do not listen to what the leaders say in war matters - neither political or corporate leaders. Look at the facts - where do the money go? Who gains power? And what would the consequences of inaction have been?

      Corporations have also tortured and executed many people through inadequate quality assurance. Quality assurance is expensive and unproductive, so it is not necessarily profitable. They would rather hire statisticians to figure out how to get acceptable safety, than spending extra time making sure the safety is really good.

      Corporations only care about money. It is the duty of the Government to make sure money results from ethical behavoir.

      And I will not listen to your counter-arguments until you've taken a few classes in Social Psychology and advertising. PR is much cheaper than correcting the actual flaws. There is an entire industry built around covering the corporate ass. Doesn't that make you worry, you've got a real problem.

      What really worries me is how corporations and goverment appear to conspire against the poeple (like copyright extensions, patriot act, non-transparent policy-making in the EU and so forth). We the people are led to think on a national level, while the national level is rapidly becoming irrelevant.

      --

      Stop the brainwash

    25. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol. You're not joking.

      R.I.P. Consignia

    26. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the power of unions is ludicrous

      Yeah! I sure wish we didn't have those damn Unions, protecting our rights as workers and securing a fair deal for the majority! Damnit, I want to work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week in filthy and dangerous conditions for a pitance, under the constant fear of being sacked! It would be so much better that way!

      YUO == DUMBASS COCKGOBLAR

    27. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And not having the way people work decided by some guys you never ever elected. (that means unions).

      Except that Union leaders are elected. Union members are balloted on a regular basis. I tend to get balloted by my Union at least every two or three months on issues from branch secutery to strike action.

    28. Re:Europe out in front again... by uradu · · Score: 2

      > I want to work 14 hours a day, 7 days a week in filthy and dangerous conditions for a pitance

      You read too much Dickens. Unions were great back when there were no workers' rights laws in order to force the issue, but since these sort of things have found their way into law, unions have become more and more redundant. Thank the unions for driving unskilled wages up to the point of moving manufacturing to the third world. But hey, we can always blame loss of jobs on immigrants. Germany is utterly paralyzed in its ability to introduce economic reforms, due to a considerable extent to the powerful unions. But we can always sit back and dream of the good old days of the economic miracle.

    29. Re:Europe out in front again... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen to that!

    30. Re:Europe out in front again... by olman · · Score: 2

      Interesting. Here the unions think workers should shut up and pay their dues. I never got anything except bills from them. To make it better yet, industries have been subordined..

      That means electronics industry is subordined to metal workers union. EE guys don't give a toss about union crap. Therefore metal workers + electrical workers are combined so they can say some 75% of the group belong to an union so we can decide these things for you.

  13. Re:Undemocratic executive arm by xutopia · · Score: 5, Insightful

    in a world of american companies trying to force the world to use their software america created the FSF.

    France is helping to create a Europe that doesn't require MS's permission to go to the washroom.

    The commission is forcing no one. It gives recommendations that the states of the new Europe take or reject based on wether or not it gives them advantages.

    Grow up.

  14. Answer: Stifle Open Source! by pubjames · · Score: 2, Funny

    As much as I hate M$ this will eventually impact American jobs and world dominance right?

    That's right. I suggest the best approach for America is to try to stifle Open Source and other such innovations. After all, stifling innovations is what made America great.

    (Sarcasm!)

  15. Since when... by theolein · · Score: 2, Insightful

    did anyone take MS paid studies seriously?

  16. Taxes by goldspider · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I know most European nations are generally socialist at their core and tax their citizens quite heavily. Is a migration to Linux going to mean lower cost of government operation and lower taxes? Or is the money that they save just going to go to some other bloated government program?

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    1. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a European I would gladly have the saved money reallocated to further improve the public health care and transportation instead of returned to me.

    2. Re:Taxes by pubjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is a migration to Linux going to mean lower cost of government operation and lower taxes? Or is the money that they save just going to go to some other bloated government program?

      Just because your own government isn't very good doesn't mean that governments the world over are crappy.

    3. Re:Taxes by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 3, Informative

      ``Is a migration to Linux going to mean lower cost of government operation and lower taxes?''
      Hehe. I don't think switching to open source solutions will have that great an impact on government expenses. Software costs will drop, but the hardware costs will remain, as will the costs for maintenance. And with all the subsidies and financial aid still in place...

      Besides, AFAIK, the expenses of the European governements aren't paid for by the citizens, but rather by the state governments. The decision to alter taxes would, then depend on those, and I don't think they will be inclined to lower taxes. They can better use the money by stimulating the not-so-shiny economy...or save up for the upcoming expansion of the EU with several poorer countries.

      ---
      The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it.
      -- Abbie Hoffman

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    4. Re:Taxes by blancolioni · · Score: 5, Informative

      I know most European nations are generally socialist at their core and tax their citizens quite heavily.

      I pay about the same amount of tax here as I did when I lived in the US. The difference is that in the EU, the money goes to social policies; while in the US it goes on the military.

    5. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful
      "Besides, AFAIK, the expenses of the European governements aren't paid for by the citizens, but rather by the state governments."

      I think you have a lot to learn about government and taxes, my friend. Where, pray tell, do you think these 'state governments' get money from?

    6. Re:Taxes by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 3, Funny
      Is a migration to Linux going to mean lower cost of government operation and lower taxes? Or is the money that they save just going to go to some other bloated government program?

      If I were a European taxpayer, I sure would feel better to have my money safely tucked into Microsoft's gleaming $40B cash stockpile than to have it wasted on some local pork-barrel program. That beautiful pile of money gives the entire world something to aspire too, and I would feel proud to do my part to make sure it's kept big, strong and safe from shareholders, Europeans and other freeloaders.

    7. Re:Taxes by goldspider · · Score: 1

      I wonder where you are getting your information from. The OMB figures state that only 17% ($368 billion out of total $2.128 Trillion)of the fiscal year 2003 budget is allocated to defense spending.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    8. Re:Taxes by Xipe66 · · Score: 1

      As a European I would gladly have the saved money returned to me instead of reallocated to further improve the public health care and transportation.

      --
      Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
    9. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which one isn't? I would like to find out so I can move there. Surely it can't be the UK because they are in the US's pockets. Not France or Germany because they are obsessed with forgetting their past and censoring the internet. Don't even think about Italy. It has to be Switzerland because we know they are big on privacy at least. Maybe you meant Australia where they shut down a city to film an American movie. If you like drugs and prostitution I guess Russia is the place for you. Unless of course you like little girls then Thailand may be right. Then there is China or India. Heck 1 Billion people can't be wrong. Should I go on?

    10. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Which one isn't? I would like to find out so I can move there. Surely it can't be the UK because they are in the US's pockets. Not France or Germany because they are obsessed with forgetting their past and censoring the internet. Don't even think about Italy. It has to be Switzerland because we know they are big on privacy at least. Maybe you meant Australia where they shut down a city to film an American movie. If you like drugs and prostitution I guess Russia is the place for you. Unless of course you like little girls then Thailand may be right. Then there is China or India. Heck 1 Billion people can't be wrong. Should I go on?

      Personally I rather like Denmark and Sweden. (I'd be interested to see what ignorant faults you can find for them. Go on, do your best).

    11. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I somehow doubt your testimony. Everything I have ever read states the personal taxes (income,sales, gas, etc.) in Europe and Canada are considerably higher than in the US. I personally rather spend my money as I see fit instead of letting the government decide. Of course I never was much of a Socialist like most Europeans.

    12. Re:Taxes by Afty0r · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid I don't have a reference to hand, but I believe the UK defence industry spend is somewhere around 4% of the total budget.

      This is considerably less than 17%

    13. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen to that! As a fellow European, I agree completely.

    14. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I still wonder why the US government insists in calling it defense when almost all defense funds are actually spent in technologies used to -attack- other countries.

      I'm not trolling against the US. This applies to many other countries too, and I feel pissed off by their attitude as well.
      'Defense' is just a gentle and politically correct word; where the money really goes is another story.

      OT over.

    15. Re:Taxes by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 0, Troll

      Sweden had a well known and long running policy of eugenics (gulp!). Did you think they were all tall, blond and good looking by ACCIDENT?

      DISCLAIMER: I've been to Sweden and I loved the forests, people (women!) fishing, sailing, food... everything really.

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    16. Re:Taxes by dylan_- · · Score: 2

      As a European I would gladly have the saved money returned to me OR reallocated to further improve public health care and transportation, as long as ONE of them happened.

      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    17. Re:Taxes by jesco · · Score: 1

      Apparently, germany, for example, is spending only about 25 billion dollars on defense, with a total budget of about 220 billion dollar and a GDP of 1.7 trillion.

      Do the math yourself. 17% is really hiiiigh. No way to argue that.

    18. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The UK spends more that 4% of its budget. You stupid people are confusing percentage of GDP with percentage of budget. Why the fuck do I read slashdot? I hate god damn tree hugging hippie crap!

    19. Re:Taxes by Fafnir_b · · Score: 1
      I couldn't find any dirt on Sweden but I still would choose Switzerland.
      Switzerland is about the only country to have profited (financially) by each major war during the last century. I'd agree with you that it should be a nice place to live (with all those mountains and about 10% of the world's biggest particle accelerator, not to mention chocolate), but still Norway would be my place of choice. Loads of forests, snow, fjords, fish, mountains, great language to tell lotr-like stories in, oil and long nights in winter for drinking good tea ;-)
    20. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't know where you live in Europe, but it sure ain't France or Germany.

      And you almost certainly aren't factoring in VAT.

    21. Re:Taxes by Sir+Banana · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I can speak on this from the other direction - I've moved from the UK to the states - and I pay pretty much the same amount of tax. To suggest that the US taxes at a lower level is somewhat misleading and is only true with qualifications.

      If you are a HIGH earner then the US taxes you at a lower rate.

      If you are a normal person then the US taxes you about the same (of course this depends a little on your state).

      I suspect that this is because a lot of americans belive in the 'America Dream': One day they will make it and be rich. They think that when that happens they wouldn't want really high taxes so they are content with a system that penalises the average person, just in case.

      --
      -- "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
    22. Re:Taxes by Xipe66 · · Score: 1

      True. :) But it's the OR that is faltering in the reality of europe today... so I'd rather take the money myself in order to ensure that they are used in a sensible manner.

      --
      Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
    23. Re:Taxes by Fafnir_b · · Score: 1
      'Defense' is just a gentle and politically correct word; where the money really goes is another story.
      Very true indeed. In Germany, what is now called 'ministry of defense' was called 'ministry of war' not too long ago.
    24. Re:Taxes by El+Cabri · · Score: 2

      I've moved from Europe to the US, and my impression is that if you add up federal taxes, state taxes, and the extra you have to spend for you or your family to get what in Europe we consider for granted for almost free, like health and education, you end up with a similar amount of "mandatory spending".

      Of course you can CHOOSE not to go to college and that your kids and spouse don't need any medical assistance. I guess that's what they call freedom.

    25. Re:Taxes by Fafnir_b · · Score: 1
      Everything I have ever read states the personal taxes (income,sales, gas, etc.) in Europe and Canada are considerably higher than in the US.
      That's probably true. It's not only that in the worst case you'll pay very close to 50% taxes on part of your income (so if your salary's raised by one more Euro, the state'll get about 50 cents of this), you still have to add social insurance, health insurance (which is mandatory), some other taxes (not only income tax) and from what is left, you'll typically pay some 16 or so percent VAT. Germany has over eighty different kinds of taxes - one on champagne, for example.
      Of course I never was much of a Socialist like most Europeans.
      You probably mean that most Europeans are socialists and I'd say that you're wrong. In many European countries, power changes to and fro between slightly left-wing and slightly right-wing parties. At the moment, Germany and the UK have the social democrats (wouldn't actually like to call them socialists, call them overregulating parties who believe that taking from the better off and giving to those who don't create jobs and profit most from social security will break the industries' power while at the same time strengthening it and leading the country to prosperity) in power, France, Italy and the Netherlands have elected right-wing coalitions. In Europe, we have changing majorities, but one really couldn't speak of most Europeans being socialists.
    26. Re:Taxes by I+hate+Perl · · Score: 2, Informative

      Considering the fact that about 30% of US population does not pay any taxes at all and 90% of all taxes is paid by 10% of the population , it is hard to claim that this system penalizes "the average person"
      Of course, perhaps as compared to Europe where being rich is practically crime and carries a social stigma, it might seem that way.

    27. Re:Taxes by teslatug · · Score: 2

      You may pay the same amount, but do you earn the same amount or more?

    28. Re:Taxes by PainKilleR-CE · · Score: 1

      I still wonder why the US government insists in calling it defense when almost all defense funds are actually spent in technologies used to -attack- other countries.

      I somehow doubt that even 20% of the defense budget is spent on technologies which are primarily used to attack other countries, unless you have a very broad vision of what's used to attack. Of course, given that the last year+ have been spent in a somewhat-wartime-state, I could be more wrong on this than I would've been before Sept 11th, 2001. AFAIK most of the defense budget is typically infrastructure and non-military personnel. I'm sure the budget for Pentagon rennovations (even pre-9/11) is a pretty penny, and then there's the rework of the entire Navy and Marine Corps networks, as well. While all of those networks and the Pentagon are vital in terms of coordinating and planning attacks, they are equally (if not moreso) vital to defense. Then again, while we believe everyone is out to get us, very few people actually manage or bother to attack us.

      --
      -PainKilleR-[CE]
    29. Re:Taxes by maraist · · Score: 2

      This has already been beaten to death, but I'll say it anyway.

      a) Military is only a tiny percentage of the budget when you consider that that we are NOT a socialist country (yet). Meaning if we did take on socialized medicine, higher education, etc. then the taxes would necessarily increase and the military percentage

      b) The money that we spend on military almost exclusively goes back into American hands (whilst many other nato nations have to contract out to other nato nations such as Poland having a large percentage of it's entire budget going to the purchasing of foreign NATO planes). Thus the military is big business and usually fosters employment.

      c) Our military budget is only big because of the cold war. The entire 90's were a down-sizing period. We're a naturally isolationist state (for better or worse). The main reason we do so many "peace keeping" missions is because we have a surplus military with little or nothing to do and a political leadership that determins the cost of war for us is cheap due to sunk costs (plus the viability for battle-hardening). Sadly, we're spreading ourselves too thinly and pissing everybody off in the process. This isn't helped by our current cowboy administration who pretends like they're invincible and that no other country's "feelings" are worth a damn.

      As as for tax rates.. It has been said that Americans are the most "honest" tax payers in the world, so if you take that rumor into account, then we probably do pay comparibly higher taxes than other nations. Obviously this doesn't apply to "honest" citizens, but as an aggregate this does count.

      --
      -Michael
    30. Re:Taxes by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 2
      I wonder where you are getting your information from. The OMB [whitehouse.gov] figures state that only 17% ($368 billion out of total $2.128 Trillion)of the fiscal year 2003 budget is allocated to defense spending.

      Well, how about the CIA? The CIA factbook lists the following figures (percent of GDP) Sweden: 2.1%, US: 3.2%, UK: 2.32%, France: 2.57%, and Germany: 1.38%.

      Thus, as percentages go you range from 24% to 131% greater expenditure military wise, than some European countries. The actual dollar values are of course a different story.

      Just for comparison with Sweden and social spending. Our military cost on the average about as much as our housing interest rebate program (aka rent control). Which is to a large extent responsible for delayed "gettoisation" of our larger cities. (Though we'll see for how much longer, unfortunately.)

      How much say a halving of the US military expenditure (to German levels) could bring in the form of social reform to the US, I have no idea. Though it'd be an interesting academic exercise.

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    31. Re:Taxes by Walles · · Score: 2
      I don't know about the numbers for the US, but I have some idea about the numbers for Sweden (where I live). If I want to hire somebody to do something that is worth 100:- to me, the money gets spent thusly:
      • 25:- tax is paid by the employer
      • 23:- (30% of what's left) tax is paid by the employee
      • The employee then pays 25% VAT when shopping, except for food that is taxed by 12,5%
      Thus, after taxes my 100:- gives my employee 40:- to do with what (s)he wishes. This is for people with normal incomes, if you have a high income, roughly 2/3 goes away in taxes.

      Regarding the socialist part, Sweden has been ruled by socialist parties during all but nine of the last 70 years. So at least here, that part is correct. Can't speak for any other part of Europe (or for the US).

      How's the situation in the US? How high are the corresponding taxes there?

      --
      Installed the Bubblemon yet?
    32. Re:Taxes by uradu · · Score: 2

      > a) Military is only a tiny percentage of the budget

      I don't consider 16% tiny by any stretch. Neither as a percentage nor as an absolute figure ($280 billion, 2001 figures), in both cases absolutely dwarfing European countries. Incidentally, the linked document contains lots of interesting figures, including comparisons with other countries.

      I do agree with most of your other points.

    33. Re:Taxes by uradu · · Score: 2

      > you end up with a similar amount of "mandatory spending".

      You're roughly right, in the US you get an itemized bill, while in Europe you get one lump sum payment. Except that unfortunately in Europe you're likely to make less money in the same profession. Hopefully that will slowly change with the wage transparency of the Euro.

    34. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're really going to quibble over a 1% difference by playing math games? Oooo!!!! 2% is 100% greater than 1%!!!! Those are the games that brain-dead, ignorant ideolouges play in their quest to subvert their (and everyone else's whether they want to or not) identity to the State.

      Do any of you fuckheads read newspapers? There's a massive force out there that wants to destroy Western civilization, and will murder billions to do so. Policy changes and "playing nice" will not appease them. They are steeped in theofacist bullshit to the point where they have no real coherent sentience. You can place blame anywhere you want, but if the West bent over backwards for them, and Israel did not even exist, we'd be in about the same situation.

      I just want to find a planet or parallel universe where the concept of being a cheer leader of huge governments and sucking hard and long and hungrily at the cocks of ideology is considered the mental illness that it turly is.

    35. Re:Taxes by rherbert · · Score: 1

      Are you nuts? If you're a high earner, the government taxes you a larger and larger percentage of your income. There are many ways to reduce your tax burden, but in general the more you make, the larger percentage you pay.

    36. Re:Taxes by Martin+S. · · Score: 2

      ...Europe where being rich is practically crime and carries a social stigma, it might seem that way.

      Don't know where you get this idea, as best it is simplistic at worst plain wrong.

      There is some stigma against the aristocracies or 'old money' but this is more against their elitism than the money.

      New money (self made) is very fasionable and cool. Indeed some of our most famous people are entrepreneurs.

      There is also developing stigma against tax evasion, but this is a recent thing, mainly due to public pressure for more spending on health and education.

      Under the previous government, tax evasion was so fashionable even cabinet ministers where at it.

    37. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There's a massive force out there that wants to destroy Western civilization, and will murder billions to do so"

      Which force? Al quaida? Bah!
      I remember the old McCarthy era... ah that were the days.
      Communistic agent everywhere threatening to overthrow the goverment.... See the similarities?
      For being a massive force that will crush the western civilization they seem awfully quiet about it...
      True, there was the WTC incident and we should mourn for the victims. But three thousand lives is not much if you try to see the bigger picture.
      The last 10 years there has been what? 4-5 bombings that can be linked to Bin Laden?
      Hmm... must quit ranting...

      The procents we are discussing could do very much to help the less fortunate americans. Why not try it out? You are not defenceless if you would halve your army..

    38. Re:Taxes by KaptajnKold · · Score: 1

      I think you have a lot to learn about government and taxes, my friend. Where, pray tell, do you think these 'state governments' get money from?

      I think he already answered that, if you'd care to read the next couple of lines of his post.

    39. Re:Taxes by Sir+Banana · · Score: 1

      No i'm not nuts. In the UK you are taxed 40% after you earn about $60k. In the US you have to be earning about $307k before you hit the 38% federal tax bracket!

      --
      -- "Outside of a dog, a book is a man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too dark to read."
    40. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's a rather naive, one sided view of US tax dollars at work.

    41. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're assuming that all US citizens think that we *need* a social reform. In fact, maybe you're right. We need to spend *less* on welfare and the environment.

    42. Re:Taxes by praedor · · Score: 2

      Give me a break. I have been in the military and I didn't see much of it, besides, I was taxed too while in (taxing the tax dollars). The money doesn't go to the military, per se, it goes to CORPORATIONS, many of which provide overpriced devices, widgets, tools, etc, to the military.

      --
      In Bushworld, they struggle to keep church and state separate in Iraq as they increasingly merge the two in America.
    43. Re:Taxes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That military budget goes to defend Europe. If it wasn't for the Americans, France would still be under Hitler's rule. They didn't even fight to defend their own country. How sad is that? Is this the same country that is preventing America with dealing with Sadaam? Is France going to deploy troops when the shit finally hits the fan?

    44. Re:Taxes by lars_stefan_axelsson · · Score: 1
      You're really going to quibble over a 1% difference by playing math games? Oooo!!!! 2% is 100% greater than 1%!!!!

      Well, I wasn't aware I was quibling, but now that you mention it, it's 1% of the GDP. That's one huge chunk of cash. In terms even you could understand, that's one cent out of ever dollar that ever gets arround. And we do consider us parts of "western civilization", and we're still here, despite spending less on defense than you lot.

      And whenever you feel the urge to leave for any parallel universe, don't let the rest of us hold you back. Bon voyage! ;-)

      --
      Stefan Axelsson
    45. Re:Taxes by Sri+Lumpa · · Score: 1

      Ok, I'll feed the Trolls.

      Of course most of the uncivilized world isn't bent on destroying the UK or its culture either, so I would be surprised if their military budget is anywhere near ours.

      Of course most of the civilised world isn't bent on invading the rest of the world or boss them around either, so I wouldn't be surprised if their military budget doesn't need to be anywhere near yours.

      --
      "The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
  17. Since when by wiredog · · Score: 2, Funny

    do penguins fly?

    1. Re:Since when by tve · · Score: 5, Funny

      Since when do penguins fly?

      Penguins can fly when being thrown, when on a plane or when you shoot them from a canon. I don't know exactly how migration would work. That's why I think this study is really great.

      --

      If there is hope, it lies in the trolls.
    2. Re:Since when by Soul-Burn666 · · Score: 2

      Like someone wise once said: "I put Linux in my box and now it flies!"

      --
      ^_^
    3. Re:Since when by HiThere · · Score: 3, Funny

      They travel by wire. Occasionally by post. And the government frowns at people who shoot at the post, even during hunting season.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    4. Re:Since when by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      No, but they migrate. Migration doesn't have to mean flying.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  18. Re:Shepd is cummin' to town boys! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I know what, or rather whom, this person is talking about. There's this guy that, to put it lightly, frequents the /. discussion boards. He basically post meaningless, thoughtless stuff to:
    1) get attention
    2) see how many posts he can get on /. (he has like 1500 or something)

    He basically fills the boards with noise. Anyway, it's a little disturbing that this poster actually took the time to write this, but I can't say that I don't agree with him.

  19. Typical Government Response by Sacarino · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Spending money to find out how to stop spending money...

    Granted, you won't find a professional anything in the world who will invest money without research, but it still seems funny to make a big annoucement about spending to reduce spending.

    --
    -- El Sacarino tiene gusto de la chocha
    1. Re:Typical Government Response by MacAndrew · · Score: 1

      I can't imagine making an informed decision about such a titanic decision without spending some money. Imagine the cost if they mess up!! And I don't think I've ever seen a feasibility study this cheap in the States, not by several orders of magnitude.

      By comparison, the EU gov't already is Linux, and the US Microsoft.

    2. Re:Typical Government Response by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I believe it was pointed out how it was funny sounding, not that it was a bad idea.

      Learn to have a sense of humor. Things can be funny AND a valid plan of action all at the same time. Fucking amazing, eh.

  20. from a money standpoint by MoceanWorker · · Score: 2, Insightful

    is 250,000 Euro really needed to educate and research on migration from Windows to Linux? Personally, but I know this will not happen, I would take advantage of resources on the Internet (i heart google :-)) based on migration for the systems and the users. Of course, later on, the money can be used to train users how to use linux, but with KDE 3.0 and so many more easier window managers and distributions popping (LibraNet a personal favorite for me).. it really won't be too difficult to install it and use it. There would be no reason for them to even use the console.

    --


    "The ones who dont do anything are always the ones who try to pull you down" -- Henry Rollins
    1. Re:from a money standpoint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      did you *read* the article, perhaps?

      no?

      *sigh*

      They're after a system where you have a smart card that you swipe and then the system logs you on the your personal desktop from anywhere in the network. Don't you think that'll take a little bit of moola to do feasibility studies, rather than a 5 minute google search?

    2. Re:from a money standpoint by MoreDruid · · Score: 1
      They're after a system where you have a smart card that you swipe and then the system logs you on the your personal desktop from anywhere in the network. Don't you think that'll take a little bit of moola to do feasibility studies, rather than a 5 minute google search?

      This is what Sun Microsystems has as a key selling point... you don't even need a special card, any card with a chip on it will do. Yes, that includes your Pin/ATM card. Serverbased applications and secure terminals, cheap and robust OS WITH good support, hmm... OK... my 5 minute Googletime (tm) are up... Now give me those 250,000 euros...

      please?

      --
      The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.
    3. Re:from a money standpoint by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And you'd just run right out and buy all this shit without doing ONE euro's worth of research.

      You, sir, are an idiot.

      Anyone that's seriously investing in something (stock, technology, wheat, whatever) does research. Simply saying "yep, that'll work" without even looking at any possible forks in their plan doesn't deserve the position of chosing a direction. Short-sightedness got a LOT of corporations where they are today.

    4. Re:from a money standpoint by budgenator · · Score: 2

      Card readers can't be that hard and it seems that NIS+ is a good start on the rest of it, but I'm not really a network guy. I can't see how it would take that much glue to put it together.
      DUH Linux has X-windows We can log into our "home" machine and run anything we want and display on any other X-Windows machine on the network. just need to clean up some security issues.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
  21. What about the UK? by GnomeKing · · Score: 4, Interesting

    The UK government recently (relatively) spent a lot of money with microsoft to introduce a "gateway" system for several things for use by the UK population (I dont know if it is implemented, but a good example is tax returns)

    I wonder if how to solve "initiatives" like that will be taken into consideration - since afaik there is no OSS solution for the existing implementation, and their gateway would have to be rethought/designed/implemented to move to OSS

    1. Re:What about the UK? by Zephy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IIRC (an I assume you are talking about UKonline) they've had serious trouble with parts of that site working with each other.. even now you can't use a single ID to access all of the services on that site. (Which incedentally is running on solaris 8 according to netcraft)

  22. Why this is Important by Alethes · · Score: 4, Insightful

    When governments and large corporations use Free Software, the chances of Palladium and other "Digital Restrictions Management" software being able to work against Free Software are very low, meaning that we as individuals maintain more of our software freedom. Hardware manufacturers cannot afford to lose the whole EU as clientele even if Microsoft can.

    1. Re:Why this is Important by PhilHibbs · · Score: 2
      Netproject seem to be embracing TCPA:
      Trusted Computing is set to accelerate the growth of the information economy.
      Opt out - and be in third world of information economies.
      Opt in - and find yourself amongst existing cartels of trust.
      although they do accept that there are criticisms and concerns:
      Ross Anderson is a leading cryptographer and authority on the interaction between security and economics. He has written on the dangers that TCPA holds for privacy, for consumer rights, for competition policy, for innovation and for small business.

      See his list of Frequently Asked Questions at: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~rja14/tcpa-faq.html
    2. Re:Why this is Important by LeftOfCentre · · Score: 1

      I don't think Microsoft can, either. It would surprise me greatly if at least half their revenue doesn't come from the EU.

  23. Re:Uh ? by pubjames · · Score: 1

    Whitin a Union (speccially the Comission) that spends milions with employes (read friends of politicians) and translators that don't do nothing (litteraly) >> spending ï½ 250 thousand is just a joke to shut up many of the European free software advocates.

    Would this be an informed opinion..?

  24. Re:europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >Al Qaeda isn't running a terror campaign in the Europe either.

    You really don't think so? Mmmh, ok then, if you really want to keep your head in the sand, don't let me stop you.

    (free clue: the vatican is in europe, you really don't think that's going to be a target some day?)

  25. Good news by d-Orb · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I guess this is good news. For a start, it is quite important to us European what the EU recommends. A well-funded, unbiased and "robust" study of Linux and free software should be welcomed. To start with, it will provide Linux with plenty of limelight. It will also point out things which need to be sorted out, and it will give more clout to people in European (or elsewhere) organisations that need pretty PDF documents with "this page is left blank intentionally" in order to be convinced.
    It would be great if this study actually comes up with reasonable comments and maybe a HOWTO. If you speak Spanish, you can see what I guess is the desired output of this project (as applied to one of Spain's ministeries) here.
    Also, note that this is mainly a desktop study, not a server or file format study (the EU has already carred out a number of these in the past). So someone is taking Linux seriously! :-)

  26. For that much money... by Captain_Stupendous · · Score: 0, Redundant

    ...They could just go ahead and DO it. No study required...

    --


    I am alone, yet I also surf the universal backwash of undifferentiated Being, which is LOVE.
    1. Re:For that much money... by BenjyD · · Score: 1

      $1 ~ 1euro. European population 380 million. That's a lot of EU computers and not really all that much money.

    2. Re:For that much money... by Captain_Stupendous · · Score: 1

      mmkay....

      They are only talking about migrating government computers, not supplying every man, woman and child in the EU with a new PC. Besides, I was joking, so nyahhh...:-P

      --


      I am alone, yet I also surf the universal backwash of undifferentiated Being, which is LOVE.
  27. What? by killmenow · · Score: 1
    ...government computers in EU states could be migrated...
    Are you suggesting that computers migrate?
    1. Re:What? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not at all. They could be carried.

    2. Re:What? by killmenow · · Score: 1

      What? A swallow carrying a computer?

  28. Re:HOWTO: Migrate to (GNU?)/Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You forgot:

    3. Profit

  29. I know they did, .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    they resigned because of corruption charges against 3 commission members. The *entire* council resigned, and was replaced by new people. How's that for accountability?

    Seen any U.S. politicians resign lately?

    1. Re:I know they did, .. by tubs · · Score: 1

      Except for Neil Kinnock - he resigned and then became the "chief fixer" in the new commision.

      --

      try to make ends meet, you're a slave to money, then you die

    2. Re:I know they did, .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Of course not. They don't resign because having sex with an intern is perfectly legal. And who cares if it is a bad role model. President's aren't supposed to be role models, are they? The last president to resign of course was Nixon who was guilty of being an overly paranoid freak.

    3. Re:I know they did, .. by Alan+Partridge · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      ...and then sacked the new accountant he hired because she complained that the accounts were a total shambles...

      Neil Kinnock gets paid 3x as much as Tony Blair!

      I'm no Blairite, but some mistake there, surely?

      --
      That was classic intercourse!
    4. Re:I know they did, .. by HiThere · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No. It appears to be so common that nobody's even embarassed anymore. People who think corruption is uncommon in the US either don't have memories, or don't even read the headlines.

      OTOH, most of the corruption that has appeared (I'm not referring to scandal) appeared to happen before the person achieved whatever their current office is. Which is interesting. It seems to imply that becomming vulnerable to charges of corruption is one of the qualifications for office. I guess that this is so that those who pay you can control your actions. It would be blackmail if it weren't being done against politicians.

      This whole mess is probably because of the cost of election campaigns. How this can be corrected when most of the legislature appears corrupted, and, by implication, most of the candidates have been corrupted before being elected (not proven, but the most probable state), is a difficult problem.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    5. Re:I know they did, .. by Usquebaugh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Easy.

      Politcal seats are won in a lottery. Everybody eligable to hold office is thrown into a draw. No more career politicans, no more family dynasty.

      The best thing is that the goverment becomes very much like the general population. If this is not what you want then are you really in support of democracy?

      It is the same way we draw jurors so why not politicans?

    6. Re:I know they did, .. by 4of12 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, I'm hoping that a democratic republic helps to even out some of the chances of getting someone elected that lives out several sigma on the bell curve.

      With a lottery, any fool can win. Listen to a few radio talk shows or some of my in-laws someday and you'll even begin to believe that Dick Cheney is better.

      No, I think elections are a good way of smoothing out the radical singularities. It's by no means foolproof, since the German populace was sufficiently gullible to elect Hitler. But I think my odds are still better than the lottery.

      I kind of like the idea of ancient China, where bureaucratic positions were based somewhat on a meritocracy; higher test scores gave you a better position.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    7. Re:I know they did, .. by Xipe66 · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure he did more than being just paranoid.

      If your presidents start act unconstitutional then beware, luckily you (americans) did - however You don't seem to have learned much from it.
      Pucko!

      --
      Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
    8. Re:I know they did, .. by Usquebaugh · · Score: 2

      Elections are not meant to smooth anything out. They are meant to be a way to elect our goverment. Currently they elect the incumbent and/or the wealthy. Joe public has no voice in our goverment.

      And the Amercian public were sufficiently gullible not to throw Bush out on his ear. Hey, there might be a lot of similarities between Bush and Hitlers elections.

      Bureaucracy is not goverment but rather the infrastructure to allow the geoverment to rule and I agree the should be based on higher test scores. This is how most unelected positions are filled in the UK it's called the civil service.

      Elections are un-democratic in that less than half of all eleigable voters vote. Elections are being used to give the illusion of democracy and are in fact returning the same old farts time after time.

      I still think that the lottery would be the best way to choose a goverment, radicals would still be isolated just as they are in mainstream society. It would also mean we would have a much closer mix of gender/race/religion in goverment to that in the general population. Think of it as a microcosim of America.

    9. Re:I know they did, .. by SEWilco · · Score: 1
      They don't resign because having sex with an intern is perfectly legal.

      D.C. Code: Statute 22-201 Adultery:

      Whoever commits adultery in the District shall, on conviction thereof, be punished by a fine not exceeding $500, or by imprisonment not exceeding 180 days, or both; and when the act is committed between a married person and a person who is unmarried both parties to such act shall be deemed guilty of adultery.
      Having sex with an intern is legal if both participants are married to each other. If they're both unmarried, that's fornication rather than adultery.

      In a quick search of the DC code and the Constitution for the State of New Columbia, I don't see the President having special powers other than being Commander in Chief of the New Columbia armed forces.

    10. Re:I know they did, .. by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      I kind of like the idea of ancient China, where bureaucratic positions were based somewhat on a meritocracy; higher test scores gave you a better position.

      But I've heard the subject matter tested often had nothing to do with the job being applied for. If you want to be in charge of overseeing the financial records you have to prove you can write poetry, for example.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    11. Re:I know they did, .. by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      And there's also still leftover laws on the books in some cities making it illegal to drive more than 10 miles per hour through the middle of town, and they're enforced about as often as the adultery laws are - roughly never.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    12. Re: I know they did, .. by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2


      > Well, I'm hoping that a democratic republic helps to even out some of the chances of getting someone elected that lives out several sigma on the bell curve.

      > With a lottery, any fool can win. Listen to a few radio talk shows or some of my in-laws someday and you'll even begin to believe that Dick Cheney is better.

      Yeah, it could be risky using the lottery for the presidency or the supreme court. But it might work for the legislature, where we probably have more than a double handful of "several sigmas" members already. At least a lottery would only give us a few, and even those would be scattered in all directions.

      The more I think about it, the more I like the idea.

      BTW, historical note: during at least some periods the Athenian democracy actually did assign most of their offices by lot. Though AFAIK they didn't have any offices where an individual would wield excessive power. Also, it was a small society and more constrained by a narrower set of normative values than ours is. (Socrates merely questioned those norms, and they considered him such a dangerous looney that they offed him.)

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    13. Re:I know they did, .. by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 2
      When I vote, it is for whoever I believe will do the best job, or at least the 'least worst' job. If I thought I could do a better job than them and wanted to spend all my time in comittees, I would consider standing myself. I know my limitations and prefer my own job anyway.

      If Nominated I will decline, if elected I will not serve - you get the idea.

      Karma seriously affected by a flame war in the 1950s.
      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    14. Re:I know they did, .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      There are very few similarities in the way Dubya and Hitler were elected.

      Dubya was ultimately shooed in by his brother and a Supreme Court voting along party lines, Hitler was not initially elected at all. I can't remember what percentage of the vote he got but it was around 35%.
      The 'Reichspresident' of Germany gave him the job of forming a government. He then came up with laws to lock up the Communists and all of the other parties (except the Social Democrats) voted for them. Now the Nazis had an absolute majority. The rest you presumably know.

      As to elections being undemocratic because less than half of eligible voters vote, that is in the US. Europe sees figures far higher than that in close elections that 'matter' and Iraq recently registered 100% ;-)
    15. Re:I know they did, .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have a strange feeling hitler was a very bright student (I have no refrences to back this up though, it just makes sense)

  30. What a task! by Inda · · Score: 0, Offtopic
    My company is currently migrating from NT to XP and it has been a major task for the 3000+ users. We've spent far more on developing new systems, new hardware and training.

    250,000 doesn't seem much to me for a task this size.

    --
    This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
    1. Re:What a task! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WHY???? Most large corperations have just started the migration to 2000 and have announced that they will NOT be migrating to XP due to instabilities and lack of proof. (late 2002 to roll out 2000 is a smart idea... it's stable as NT4+sp6 now.)

      what bonehead at your company decided rolling straight to XP was smart? you are in for a world of pain because of it.

    2. Re:What a task! by Scooter · · Score: 2

      Er.. this is just a study dude - they're not spending 250K on migrating every computer withtin the EU.

  31. Re:HOWTO: Migrate to (GNU?)/Linux by eggstasy · · Score: 1

    3. Profit!!!
    Oh, no! AAAARRRRRGHHHHHH!!!! *splat*

  32. Re:europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Quite frankly I wouldn't mind if Al Qaeda stormed the Vactican and burnt it down to the ground.

    For all I care, all the religious institutions can fight each other to extinction. It might actually bring us closer to the world peace.

  33. A token expenditure by jonbrewer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That they've only budgeted 250,000 euros for a study really shows that they are complacent with a Microsoft dominated IT scheme. That rather insignificant amount of money could easily be blown on six months of a consultant's time and stock research reports from Jupiter, Ovum, and Gartner.

    1. Re:A token expenditure by panurge · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The European Commission isn't actually very large and does not actually have a very large budget. Finding 250000 euros isn't necessarily that easy. There is a mildly amusing story about this. Apparently at some event Prince Charles (von Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Battenberg etc) was sounding off about the huge European bureaucracy and its deadening effect, until someone broke protocol (you're not allowed to tell the heir to the throne he is talking bovine excrement) and remarked that actually the EU bureaucracy is smaller than Kent County Council, which handles local services for a few percent of the UK. At which the Prince suddenly went quiet.

      The Commission tends to attract the brightest civil servants, and actually if you ever have to deal with it, it shows. Think West Wing in several languages. And no, I don't work for it and am never likely to.

      --
      Panurge has posted for the last time. Thanks for the positive moderations.
    2. Re:A token expenditure by vidarh · · Score: 2
      Netproject is a membership organization for companies that wish to cooperate on strategies for use of Open Source and open standards - it's not a normal consulting company. As such they are unlikely to be looking at more than recouping costs - they're more interesting in providing a workable strategy that will allow their members to participate in the deployment of open source based systems later. Among the people cooperating with Netproject you'll find Alan Cox and Eric Raymond for instance.

      So "only" 250,000 euros might be more than enough to produce a report that provide workable strategies.

    3. Re:A token expenditure by nibelung · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't forget that the EC is only a tiny fraction of size of all combined EU governments. If the EC is spending 250K Euros (an insignificant amount really IMO), it signals that all combined, there is 10s or 100s of millions being spent on investigating open source.

    4. Re:A token expenditure by Martin+S. · · Score: 2

      The Commission tends to attract the brightest civil servants, and actually if you ever have to deal with it, it shows. Think West Wing in several languages. And no, I don't work for it and am never likely to.

      I've also met some Eurocrats and I agree they are bright, fun, charming people. They have a vision for a enlighted transnationalism that is inspiring and refreshing.

    5. Re:A token expenditure by FattMattP · · Score: 2

      What is West Wing?

      --
      Prevent email address forgery. Publish SPF records for y
    6. Re:A token expenditure by jonbrewer · · Score: 2

      The European Commission isn't actually very large and does not actually have a very large budget. Finding 250000 euros isn't necessarily that easy.

      Nice story. I guess I spoke too soon... I should probably learn the difference between the "European Commission" and the "European Council" at some point. Especially as I'm about to marry in to EU citizenship... :-) (Czesc Kohanie!)

    7. Re:A token expenditure by LeftOfCentre · · Score: 1

      Actually the European Council also isn't hugely large. It consists of a building, staff and translators / interpreters, and is only the name of the state governments meeting in organised form. The EU isn't really a true federal government, even though it may seem that way sometimes. :) Thus, its central institutions doesn't have access to more than a very small portion of all the tax money paid by EU citizens.

  34. Money well spent by nomadicGeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm glad to see this happening.

    I've been pretty turned off by some of the sales practices that I have seen by large software companies. I think that it makes much more sense for governments to pool their resources and develop free software instead of licensing commercial packages.

    MS licensing fees are not unreasonable but they do add up when you are talking about so many users. At least I haven't seen them selling 2 licenses for every govt employee.

    A couple of years ago, an Oracle reseller sold the state of CA more licenses than they had users to use. I've seen it happen with other software companies. I'd love to see CA move to an open source database and tell Oracle to kiss their butts. It would serve them right.

  35. It tastes just like chicken... by MacAndrew · · Score: 1

    Sorry, I couldn't resist.

    Wouldn't Linux waddle or swim in migration?

  36. Re:HOWTO: Migrate to (GNU?)/Linux by ck42 · · Score: 1

    Those gnomes had it all figured out, eh?

  37. what a stupid thing to waste energy on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    you've got no clue, do you? how the hell else is the research going to get funded?

    repeat after me: "the world of Harry Potter is not real."

    1. Re:what a stupid thing to waste energy on by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the world of Harry Potter is not real.

  38. Flamebait? by Xipe66 · · Score: 1

    So a valid point about american business is a "flamebait", while a snideful, untrue and uneducated remark about the Euro currency (first post) being worth 25 cents and not worthy of being compared to the mighty dollar is "funny"?

    The spreading american jealousy I find more funny.

    --
    Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
    1. Re:Flamebait? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Valid"? How so? Why should the EU care about the impact on the US market? Look kid, this is Globalisation in action. Ain't it great?!? Oh, you think its only good if its a direct benefit to the US? Well thats just tough. You cooked this shit up, now you gobble it up.

    2. Re:Flamebait? by Xipe66 · · Score: 1

      Read what I wrote one more time... moron... (sorry, I meant "kid").

      --
      Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
  39. Re:3 Step Plan by mccalli · · Score: 3, Funny
    3. Profit!

    You know, I'm normally a fairly reasonable person as I hope my posting record will support.

    Despite that however, would anyone mind if I personally came over and strung up the next person to post a "3. Profit!" mail? Anyone...?

    No. Didn't think anyone would mind.

    Cheers,
    Ian

  40. Re:3 Step Plan by AUsBandit · · Score: 1

    I think I might have a small reason to complain.
    And my mother might not like it too much either if you killed me for one bad joke.
    Last I checked the law might care too.

  41. Linux Thin Clients? by jdbarillari · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The article alludes to a "ultra low cost machine being supplied by the Telford office of Taiwanese company GCI, price ?299, including a smart card reader." This machine is "'stateless,' so a user can log on with their smartcard from any machine on the network, and get immediate access to their personal desktop,".

    That sounds a lot like the Sun Ray. I can't find any info GCI from Taiwan (those who can read Chinese could look here to see if GCI==gci.com.tw. It looks like an ordinary retailer.) Does GCI sell Sun Rays, or do they have a new solution?

    US $467-per-box seems surprisingly high (conversion by xe.com/ucc/) for a thin client. Thin clients (at least the ones I've seen) are usually built around stripped-down architectures -- essentially, a USB controller, a video card, a NIC, and the minimum that's needed to tie them together. Then again, if you toss in the price of an LCD monitor (space concerns) and a smart card reader, $467 may be reasonable.

    Does anyone know what GCI sells? The Oracle of Google doesn't reveal anything about GCI and "smart card" or "thin client". (It does reveal a page saying that there is a "ANSWER GCI LTD", originally from Taiwan, in Telford, but supplies no details beyond the fact that they're in "computer sales.") If they're a reseller, reselling thin clients, I would be intrigued to discover which ones.

    1. Re:Linux Thin Clients? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      £299 includes VAT @17.5%

      VAT = Value Added Tax (Slightly Orwellian)

      For US tranlate as purchase tax.

      This keeps Gordon happy!

  42. OSS Making inroads in Europe by Diabolical · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually OSS has been subject to several studies from one or the other eu comission. There are some strong promotors for OSS like Germany and several special interest groups which include some distros and smaller OSS companies.

    Further more, the recent cooling down of relations between the US and Germany inflicted fear upon several EU parliament members who suggest that it would be wise to look into OSS software to make sure the EU is not too depending on software of American origin.

    I can understand their sentiment given the alleged fact that information aquired through echelon was abused to give American companies an advantage. So they are afraid that using "American" software could give them the same problems. Aside from the fact that the EU too does not like vendor lock-in there is also a growing resentment of how Microsoft is going about it's bussiness without even the slightest hesitation because of it's legal battles and the ongoing investigation of it's practices by the EU.

    Besides.. they'd rather spend all that money they could save on licensing costs on farming subsidies anyway ;-)

  43. Re:3 Step Plan by mccalli · · Score: 1
    I think I might have a small reason to complain.

    Well...if you're being picky about it...

    And my mother might not like it too much either if you killed me for one bad joke.

    Err...

    Last I checked the law might care too

    Detail. Trivia...

    Oh all right then, since you came back to fight your corner so nicely I'll let you off :-). But please, fifty Profit! jokes an article is slowly turning me psychotic...

    Cheers,
    Ian

  44. With appologies to Monty Python. by hypnotik · · Score: 3, Funny

    SOLDIER #1: Are you suggesting linux migrates?

    ARTHUR: Not at all. It could be carried.

    SOLDIER #1: What? A swallow carrying linux?

    ARTHUR: It could grip it by the shrink wrap!

    SOLDIER #1: It's not a question of where he grips it! It's a simple question of weight ratios! A five ounce bird could not carry a one pound linux distribution.

    --
    (I was only an egg, but then I cracked)
    1. Re:With appologies to Monty Python. by crusher-1 · · Score: 1

      ARTHUR: I say a swallow can carry a linux box

      SOLDIER #1: Could not!

      ARTHUR: Could too!

      SOLDIER #1: Could not!

      ARTHUR: COULD TOO !!!

      SOLDIER #1: COULD NOT !!!

      ARTHUR: --pulls out sword, runs soldier through--

      SOLDIER #1:--gasps and dies--

      ARTHUR: Could too.

  45. 250k is not very much by Clansman · · Score: 1

    say 150k in sterling so enough to pay for a co-ordinator, 2 researchers, a tiny office and some kit for one year.

    want to imagine what the entire EU pays to microsoft each year right now?

  46. uh by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why does it cost them 250 big ones? why don't they just download it?

  47. it is easy to migrate hardware and software.... by 2000+Britneys · · Score: 3, Insightful

    but what they will have to contend the most is the migration of users to a new way do doing things in the linux os and any and all the applications that will run on it.

    I work for a large City (municipal) government and let me tell you just changing from windows 95 to windows 2000 caused chaos and havoc in my department. There are ppl here that worked for the city for more than 30 years and are so bloody entrenched in doing things their own way it is unbelievable.

    Now the EU has a good chance of migrating since (and this an assumption) the workers didn't have much time to get set in MS way of doing things

    1. Re:it is easy to migrate hardware and software.... by meadowsp · · Score: 3, Funny

      What on earth are you on about? Why would europeans have had less time to get used to MS tools, than americans?

      And I'm slightly suspicious about your vets who've been using windows 95 for 30 years....

    2. Re:it is easy to migrate hardware and software.... by 2000+Britneys · · Score: 1

      well the vets were proli using the manual system then the mainframe came in, then the pcs with dos (ms, dr) then windows 1,2,3, 3.11 etc. then in 95 the win95.( they are still on win95) What I am saying is that those ppl are set (even entrenched) in MS ways of doing things. Now the EU is a relatively new organization that had little if any time to organize the administrative back bone so it would be IMHO relatively easy to switch from ms to any other os and app combo.

  48. Mod -1 --- Libertarian Nonsense by endoboy · · Score: 1

    a) 200,000 Euro's is chump change--holding a conference or two for a couple dozen people to study/debate the matter would eat up most of that

    b) you acknowledge that no professional would invest money without research, so what, you're suggesting that government should be run by amateurs?

    c) supposing we accept your notion that they shouldn't spend any money on it, how, precisely do you propose to develop the arguement for adopting OSS at the government level?

  49. Even so... by Alethes · · Score: 1

    If the EU embraces TCPA and Linux at the same time, do you think they will tolerate a TCPA platform that does not play fair with Linux?

    1. Re:Even so... by PhilHibbs · · Score: 1

      If the TCPA will run Linux, but only build of Linux that have been created by TCPA-authorised companies, then that might be a solution that is acceptable to governments and big business. It leaves you and I in the shitter, though. However, TCPA is supposed to run legacy software, so how is it going to tell whether this build of Linux is pre-TCPA or not? Is it going to check the timestamps on the files? Unlikely, and easily bypassed.

  50. Absolutely by CaptainZapp · · Score: 3, Interesting
    How jealous the rest of Europe must be!

    Oh absolutely! Smashing British Rail into smithereens and a bankrupt infrastructure company was a master stroke.

    Where else in Europe can you still get a sense of danger and adventure when riding the train?

    Ah nostalgia: The service level and efficiency of what remains from the English rail system is now comparable with the one in Bulgaria in the 50s.

    Yeah, your Ms. Thatcher sure had a clue...

    --
    ich bin der musikant

    mit taschenrechner in der hand

    kraftwerk

  51. How many would notice? by budgenator · · Score: 2

    Most users have so little training in using computers, the hardest thing for them to learn in migrating to linux is to only single-click the desktop icons, and to give it a second because the browser isn't 90% pre-load during boot-up. My estimate is power-users will adapt quickly, and most of the rest will hardly notice. Teach them how to copy and paste and change screen res on the fly and most people will think Linux is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

    --
    Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    1. Re:How many would notice? by unapersson · · Score: 1

      I don't think this is such a biggy. Our I.T. trainer said the number one question that new users ask in training sessions is how to know when to double or single click.

  52. Re:europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You didn't answer the question.

    >all the religious institutions can fight each other to extinction. It might actually bring us closer to the world peace.

    Ah! Eurologic at work. Love that "Peace == War" style.

  53. Death & Taxes by zenyu · · Score: 2

    only 17% Not only is 17% a whole hell of a lot, but isn't even the total cost. When you take into account benefits for retired soldiers and their spouse's benefits it grows even larger. We spend more on just the Veterans Affairs office than Germany spends on it's entire military. We could afford to spend 2-3% and still feel very safe. If they cut that budget they could lower payroll taxes, pay the federal public dept, pay back the dept to Social Security, and send a paltry 30 billion to OSS a year. In 40-50 years when the baby boomers start to drop, they might even have a little left over to refinance some of the State and Local debt at inflationary rates or even shock lower taxes in for the long term. If we had any sense we'd try to reform the UN (more democratic, voting bonus for democratically elected representitive, elimination of the veto, etc.) and sell parts of our offensive military to them to police the Bosnias and Rwandas of the world.

    1. Re:Death & Taxes by goldspider · · Score: 1
      "If they cut that budget they could lower payroll taxes, pay the federal public dept, pay back the dept to Social Security"

      Social Security is a sinking ship. Should we be helping people get off of it or should we make them more comfortable for the trip down?

      "If we had any sense we'd try to reform the UN and sell parts of our offensive military to them to police the Bosnias and Rwandas of the world."

      The UN has plenty of military resources, they simply choose not to enforce their policies/resolutions.

      --
      "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    2. Re:Death & Taxes by Isle · · Score: 2

      Sounds good on the surface. But I am not sure I would trust a mility controlled partly by permanent members of the security counsel like China, Russia or the USA (not sure about the british or the french either, but atleast they havent been that bad recently)

  54. Re:3 Step Plan by The+J+Kid · · Score: 2

    1. Kill people for bad jokes
    2. Letting them turn you psychotic
    3.
    4. Pro...

    No, I just don't have the heart.

    --
    Moderation: +4. Modded 70% Funny and 30% Overrated. 100% Saturated.
  55. Only some users are hard to move. by twitter · · Score: 2
    The computers need to be migrated and it won't be easy. Microsoft has stated in their EULA that they will help themselves to the information on all computers running their OS. Microsoft has also admitted to never caring much if others did the same. Neither of these are acceptable for any computer, but govenments have laws against such things. Microsoft has worked to make it difficult to move information in a lossless way. Data goes in, is obscured and does not come back out. People who have delved into the M$ swamp of data formats and made it available are heros. It's gotten so bad that you can hardly get your work from old M$ junk to new M$ junk.

    Users are much easier to move. My wife has had no problems using either Red Hat or Debian systems running Gnome, KDE and Window Maker. The only desktop that really makes itself difficult to master is Microsoft. The less they actually do the easier they are to migrate. Those that do more might complain at first as they will require the most support getting their work out and much will be lost but that should not last long. They will quickly realize the power Linux has to offer them and wonder how they ever tollerated the confines of comercial software.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  56. Great idea! by Chrysophrase · · Score: 0
    I think open source should be the defacto OS for all governments and institutions. Create a more diverse computing environment.

    I sure hope it doesn't turn into a migraine in stead of migrate.

    --
    "It usualy starts with some screaming. Afterwards there is much running around."
  57. uh oh! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    looks like somebody needs a generous donation of software and equipment from microsoft!

  58. Migrating business logic is hard by Jeppe+Salvesen · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Whenever someone has done a poor choice and implemented part or all business logic somewhere proprietary, migrating becomes hell. One example would be databases where you rely heavily on the procedural language that comes with your particular RDBMS. Another example would be use of macros in MS Office products.

    Sure, if you have all your systems implemented in a Java-based GUI or as a webapp, then you're in luck. Otherwise, tough luck.

    --

    Stop the brainwash

  59. don't forget eastern European countries by master_p · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They don't have much money but they have a huge need for computers, so Linux is their best choice.
    And they are going to enter EU pretty soon.

    1. Re: don't forget eastern European countries by Black+Parrot · · Score: 1


      > They don't have much money but they have a huge need for computers, so Linux is their best choice.

      I suspect that if you drew a map you'd find an inverse square law, with the net deployment of Linux rising rapidly with distance from Redmond.

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
  60. Re: Spain by jjga · · Score: 1

    I would agree with your statement. I am also European, from Spain, but currently living in the USA. Here, I am paying around 30% of my salary with no benefits (I do not include here the health insurance, vacations, umployment insurance, etc.). With the same level of salary, in Spain I would be paying around 35% but getting many more benefits that here I cannot even think about.

  61. Re: Spain by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah ha! You can't think about the benefits because the CIA is controlling your mind, and so therefore you don't miss those benefits!

  62. Strategic by syylk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ok, let's put down the Linux fanboy suit, and look more deeply at this.

    EU is (slowly) getting out of the shadow of the former superpower. Euro, 9/11, New Economy burst, US & Japan economic crisis, all "helped" the Union to find back their unity, identity, pride and strength.

    I won't debate the good or bad of these events, I'm not up to it.

    But, I'd like to point out that in such "self awareness" phenomenon, the last thing you'd want to concede to your competitors is to have one of their major companies practically rule the information and communication infrastructure of your own national system(s).

    Would any american citizen rather have all of their phone lines be run by a German monopolistic private company? Or all of their power plants run by a French monopolistic private company? Or all of their run by monopolistic private company?

    So why so many arms thrown up when we Europeans start looking around for other suppliers of (most of) our government and in the end strategic IT infrastructure?

    I believe if we in the EU had a powerhouse software firm similar in size to M$, we'd be already switched over it. Proprietary or not, it'd not matter (much) from a strategic point of view.

    Cost is a factor, but not as much as putting your own computer-related balls in the hands of a private company of an allied-but-competing country.

  63. It is inevitable by i_luv_linux · · Score: 1
    This an inevitable direction. As everybody migrates to Linux, I hope the quality of the products will also improve. The only problem now is that the main programs in Linux are volunteer projects. I don't think that volunteer projects will be enough to convince with the Linux on the long run. There should be more dedicated people to these applications, new business models have to be developed so that companies who work on these particular applications will somehow make money and support those applications.

    One such example is KDE. I like KDE a lot, but it is still immature compared to Windows/Office. If only there was a company with full of programmers who work continously on KDE, then we would have a really competitive application.

    Also more integration is neeeded. X Window is not the real answer for that particular job. It is designed to be way too strong. User interface is the number one issue.

    I use Linux at job, but at home, it is Windows. When I think about it, Linux would cost me too much time if I had used it. For productivity and fun Windows is still way ahead of Linux.

    1. Re:It is inevitable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, it's only a matter of time now that both KDE and GNOME are progressing really well. I use Linux at work and at home. I don't agree with you that Windows is way ahead of Linux for productivity and fun; maybe just a little ahead.

      I wouldn't know how to do shell scripts in Windows. At home, I use gnumeric for spreadsheets and OpenOffice Writer for word processing. I really don't need Windows here.

  64. windows ex-pee is crap! by norite · · Score: 1

    we've got windows ex-pee and office ex-pee at university. It's shit. I hate it. windows ex-pee is..soo..s.l..o....w...it takes a full 10 seconds for the start menu to appear. I hate the way i can't configure anything my way "because i don't have permissions". I hate those big ugly icons that appear in the left on each folder. then when i get rid of them by using the "list" option, they re-appear the next time i log on. i hate it i hate it i hate it. and that green and blue task bar...Lordy! it looks like the teletubbies have gotten their hands on it. yuk.i hate it. fortunately, all the PC's are dual bootable, and have redhat installed as well...phew!

    --
    -- Fuck Beta
    1. Re:windows ex-pee is crap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Gotta agree that WinXP is slow, but other than that it seems more like you don't know how to configure it.. And if you don't like the "ms-style", why the heck do you run Redhat? It's the most microsoftified dist of them all! :P

    2. Re:windows ex-pee is crap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      actually it sounds like his adminstrators locked down user customizations. In amazing brilliance MS interprets that to mean they can't do anything at all for their own user accounts dealing with UI changes.

  65. EU doesn't matter by jamej · · Score: 1

    The biggest anti competition organization on earth, the EU. Is still chasing that socialist dream. The EU will get its first Linux box up and running about the same time the EU implodes from its collective silliness. The EU is about as relevant to Linux and the open source movement as, to borrow a phrase, bicycles are to fish.

    1. Re:EU doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I disagree. The biggest anti competition organization on earth is actually the USA. Is still chasing that pax americana dream. The USA will get its first Linux box up and running about the same time the USA implodes from its collective corporate scandals. The USA is about as relevant to Linux and the open source movement as, to borrow a phrase, dancers are to architecture.

    2. Re:EU doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The EU is the central political body covering an area including 12 first world countries with a total population of 380 million people. I'd love to know your definition of 'relevant'.

      Regarding 'chasing the socialist dream', the last time I checked we were doing just fine thank you very much. Free education, free health care, no death penalty, stringent gun control... it's tough, being 'socialists' but we get by, somehow.

    3. Re:EU doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      LOL! EU is the biggest anti-competition organization on earth? The strictest anti-monopoly laws on earth are mandated by the EU!

      Let's not forget, the reason the EU was formed to begin with is to promote intra-european and international competition, not to undermine it, so before you churn out bs like that, be sure to check your facts first.

      And, you might also like to know that socialism in the EU is following a Monetarist (originally conservative) economic approach. Far better than having our 'republican' president ignoring the economy and starting wars in camelfuck land. So shut up.

  66. UK run by 1000 year old fashist regime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ya, your country is just so progressive that in a 1000 years you haven't thrown off the thugs who invade you in 1066. They still run and control the whole country.

    I have never meet a 'british' person unless they are related to your ruling mafia.

    I have met a lot of English, Scotts and Welsh.

    Your country is awesome, yes I love it. However, don't ignore your history of tyranny and explotation of first your own people and then everyone else.

  67. Re:europe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Eurologic at work. Love that "Peace == War" style.

    You might want to pay more attention to your own President, dipshit. I think you'll find that Peace == War is exactly the bullshit the Head Retard of the United States has been spewing for the past couple of months.

  68. Re:3 Step Plan by Xipe66 · · Score: 1

    Hey, dimwit - free as in beer doesn't mean free as in integration, as in development, as in all supporting software being free, as in support.

    --
    Civilization is the process of setting man free from men.
  69. A True Story about the Railways by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is a true story. I think it illustrates nicely how fucked up the privatisation of the railways is.

    At Bristol Temple Meads station, the clocks are currently still running on British Summer Time. Although the clocks are all run from a single master clock, the master clock is housed in a building which is owned by Railtrack, not First Great Western (FGW run the station itself). The First Great Western staff do not have access to the Railtrack building, and Railtrack have not sent anybody to the station to set the clocks back.

    Its a wonder that trains arn't smashing head on into each other at every available opurtunity.

  70. Ah, the ironies... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Does anyone else get the impression that this will be yet another area where, yet again, Europe is going to be WAY out in front of the US.
    Does anyone besides me see the irony of preening about how far ahead Europe is of America for wanting to migrate to a clone of an American operating system (developed by one of the biggest corporate monoliths of all time, AT&T), developed under a free software license created by a Massachusettes software foundation and maintained by a developer working in Silicon Valley.

    Muslims have ideological reasons for ignoring their utter dependence on American technology, but Europeans probably have more benign ones- namely, American technological dominance is so pronounced (50%+ of the scientific Nobel Prizes each year go to Americans or scientists working at American universities) that it becomes taken for granted, kind of like the air you breath.

    But if it weren't for America's unprogressive social policies many of the technologies the world takes for granted would not exist, such as new drug treatments (would AIDs cocktails exist right now without America's for-profit health industry making new research profitable?), computer hardware & software (the Internet was created for the American Department of Defense, almost all new chips are designed by American hardware firms, the modern computer GUI was developed by Xerox... yada, yada, yada).

    So please have some perspective about where all your technological goodies come from. And as a parting shot I'd just like to point out all the foolishness that's been committed recently in the name of progress. During the '70's, for example, it was hip to be a Maosist and in case you think only a minority of people fell for this ideological dead-end why did the Beatles have to warn against it in the choruses of one of their songs?

  71. quarter mil? by mbogosian · · Score: 2

    [The] European Union, has decided to spend 250,000 Euros on studying how government computers in EU states could be migrated to Linux....

    Heck, why don't they just spend the quarter million on actually doing the migration. You could probably get most of it done for that.... :)

    (This was meant to be funny, not a troll.)

  72. Re: Spain by jjga · · Score: 1

    I think the CIA think doesn't work on me, because I am well aware of how little I am getting for all the money I pay in taxes ;-)

  73. Hey, you violated an EULA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not that I give a rat's ass about MS's EULA's, but j0n katz.... Yes, you - j0n katz at 1313 Mockingbird Ln in Tennessee.... You violated the EULA by posting that document on your own website.

    Here, look:
    NOTICE SPECIFIC TO DOCUMENTS AVAILABLE ON THIS WEBSITE
    Permission to use Documents (such as white papers, press releases, datasheets and FAQs) from this server ("Server") is granted, provided (yada yada...) (2) use of such Documents from this Server is for informational and non-commercial or personal use only and will not be copied or posted on any network computer or broadcast in any media, and...Violators will be prosecuted to the maximum extent possible.

    Good god man, you swiped the document including the link back to the TOS. At least delete the footer shit when you thieve.

    Also, notice in that footer that the document was created December 99, last review date of Oct 10, 2002. Interesting.

    Have a nice day :)

  74. Re:Undemocratic executive arm by LeftOfCentre · · Score: 1

    The commision does not have "all the power". While they have the power to present proposals, the power to approve or deny those proposals are completely in the hands of the European Parliament and the Council (member states).

  75. Corporate America way out in front again. by Jodka · · Score: 1

    Does anyone else get the impression that this will be yet another area where, yet again, corporate america is already WAY out in front of socialist Europe governments ? (or, if you live here, I guess you'd just call Corporate America "business" :) )

    IBM made Linux adoption one of its top goals a few years ago and announce a billion dollar Linux budget. HP is in there also, having hired Bruce Perens, and hell, the great Linus himself was hired out of Europe by Corporate America. Intel was early with a Linux port to Itanium. Google runs on it. American corporations fab almost all CPUs on which Linux runs.

    Therefore, in my mind, it makes perfect sense for a business (a private one at least) to setup it's IT infrastructure based around a platform created by volunteer programmers for any individual or institition willing to accept the terms of the GPL. Its a smart corporate strategy which lowers costs by reducing software licensing fees.

    Europe is once again made look like a continent run by catch-up socialist regulators, who follow in distant pursuit of trends set by US corporations.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  76. Re:3 Step Plan by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    1. Opportunity (People get annoyed by people spamming "3. Profit!")
    2. Hard Work (You start stringing up people who post "3. Profit!")
    3. Profit! (Grateful Slashdotters send massive amounts of money to fund your efforts.)

    Next step: A Beowulf cluster of these!

  77. About the link by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

    I find it funny that a page "helping" people de-install linux (the 'bashdot.org' link in your article) is shown in a format that gets garbled on browsers people are likely to be using under linux (I tried with mozilla, and it ended up writing lines of text on top of each other into a scribbly black mess. making much of it unreadable.) Now, I realize Mozilla has had html compliance before so I double-checked the site against w3.org's validator, and it generates about 100 errors - andI tried all the version of html the page had, XHTML, HTML4.01 both transitional and strict), HTML 3.2, HTML 2.0 - They all said it was messed up. (what confused mozilla is the plethora of cases where a closing tag exists for which there was no opening tag (it has a about four times, for example.)
    And it's not even that complicated a page. It's just one page with some numbered lists and some paragraphs and bullet points and header size changes. All generic simple stuff that it shouldn't be getting wrong.

    --

    Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    1. Re:About the link by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      I realize Mozilla has had html compliance

      oops - typo: I that was supposed to read "has had BAD html compliance".
      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    2. Re:About the link by Malcolm+Scott · · Score: 1
      [Mozilla] has had BAD html compliance
      No, no, no! One of the main objectives of Mozilla is to have good HTML compliance. It's probably the most standards-compliant browser I know.

      IE has bad HTML compliance, and the Microsoft page contains all sorts of fudges to make it display properly (e.g. negative margins) - which aren't strictly non-standard, but they shouldn't be expected to work in anything other than IE...
    3. Re:About the link by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2
      One of the main objectives of Mozilla is to have good HTML compliance.
      "The objective is to do foo" != "We've finished doing foo".
      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    4. Re:About the link by Malcolm+Scott · · Score: 1

      Mozilla is almost at version 1.2 now, and can be considered a mature product. Although work on the rendering engine is still continuing, it is now almost completely W3C HTML compiant. It does not support some of Microsoft's proprietary extensions, because they're not in any official standard.

      Most of the work on Mozilla now goes into extra features and bug fixes for the Mozilla application suite, rather than the rendering engine. There are still a small number of problems with the rendering engine, but the problem is not usually a violation of standards - rather, a fault which makes the interpreted content display incorrectly (e.g. corrupted display).

    5. Re:About the link by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2

      My post obviously referred to Mozilla in the past tense, as in "has had some problems". No, I was not speaking of version 1.2

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  78. Good Lord! by NDPTAL85 · · Score: 1

    Why on GAWD's green Earth would anyone with a high level of intellect want to FIGHT for a government job? Jesus Christ. Talk about a waste of resources. Smart people deserve high wages, fame, and or fortune, not a life of drudgery serving the unwashed masses!

    --
    Mac OS X and Windows XP working side by side to fight back the night.
  79. Finally ... by macgiverDOTbe · · Score: 1

    Finally they managed to think about the beautiful Open Source sollutions... instead of the M$ sollutions... I hope that the Belgian government (here) will also give a good move to Linux ;-) I'm a proud Linux (NERD) and i know its a great adaptation to move from Windaz to Linux... but if you try, you're in ;P

  80. A union IS a company by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 2
    I never understand these people who bitch and moan about unions being socialist. They're a company just like any other. What they sell is labor. Do the same thing in the white collar world instead and you aren't called a union, you're called a consultancy firm. Let's look at all the things that might make someone want to call a union socialist, and I'll debunk them:
    1. - They often take over an entire shop refusing to allow non-union workers to be hired.
      • This is just an exclusive contract, no different than saying "If you want to resell McDonald's food in your restaurant, you have to be a franchise that sells ONLY McDonald's food or we won't deal with you." And it's just like saying, "The terms of our contract say you can't install a competitor's OS on the PC's you sell."

    2. They take dues from workers, like a tax.

      • consultancy firms grab a percent off the top for themselves. No difference.


    3. A worker is forced to join the union in order to work at a union shop.
      • Again, the owner of the factory CHOSE to enter into this exclusive contract. The potential worker could always go elsewhere.

    4. The employer is strong-armed into using the union because they grab up all the available labor
      • I can't even begin to count the number of times I've bitched about how "you can always just not use their products" is an empty solution when dealing with a company so large that they are everywhere, with their hands in everything so there isn't much left that ISN'T using their products. (Like Microsoft). Again, I don't see the relevant difference here. Don't like Unions? Don't use them. Your employees decided to unionize? If you don't like it, fire them and hire "scabs". What? the union is too big to piss off because they have so much of the potential worker population in their camp? Tough - go train your own workers from scratch or something. To repeat the mantra of the libertarians back at them, "you can always take your business elsewhere."


    Now, you might have gotten the idea that I like labor unions from the above rant. I DON'T. Let me make that perfectly clear. I'm just trying to point out how the reason they are bad is IDENTICAL to the reason a monopoly company is bad, for the hard of thinking who seem to believe it's impossible for a company to do any wrong in a free market.
    --

    Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

  81. [OT] Re:Since when by tve · · Score: 1

    For the record, the previous comment was inspired by an example from Marvin Minsky illustrating what is known in AI as the qualification problem.

    --

    If there is hope, it lies in the trolls.
  82. How to migrate away from Linux by Malcolm+Scott · · Score: 1

    Lucky I can't read that in Linux then, what with the text all overlapping in Mozilla... :-)

  83. Migratory Machinery by duck_prime · · Score: 1
    ...government computers in EU states could be migrated... Are you suggesting that computers migrate?
    Yes, low-priced computers from the Middle East and Asia have been migrating into Europe and taking jobs away from European mainframes. ;)

    That was a joke son. -- F. Leghorn
  84. Finally... by macgiverDOTbe · · Score: 1

    Finally they managed to think about the beautiful Open Source sollutions... instead of the M$ sollutions... I hope that the Belgian government (here) will also give a good move to Linux ;-) I'm a proud Linux (NERD) and i know its a great adaptation to move from Windaz to Linux... but if you try, you're in ;P

  85. EU left as the only one to stop MS monopoly by jopet · · Score: 1

    As it looks, the EU remains the last chance to break the MS monopoly on computing that it already has worldwide. Computing is nowadays needed by everyone, everywhere, and no matter if the MS OS is good or bad, it is bad to have no choice. It is foreseeable that the no choice situation will get worse with MS embracing DRM and TCPA. So I would say that the EU should do far more to establish Linux as a European alternative and competition to MS-OS's. The Airbus initiative from the 60s could serve as a rough model: intense funding has broken the then-monopoly of the US in the passenger airplanbe market and established Airbus as a competitive alternative. Doing the same with Linux-based companies and providing a market in the public administrations would be a great step in getting the OS and computing market back into something where you can choose. There would be added benefits: after all, MS Users have no control over what they actually get, a Linux-based administration could pay Companies not for Linux, but for tailoring and adapting it to their needs. Hopefully the EU will not fall to its knees towards MS as the US does ...

  86. 15 countries by LeftOfCentre · · Score: 1

    Correction: 15 first world countries. Otherwise I agree with what you said.

  87. How migration works by e_AltF4 · · Score: 1
    I don't know exactly how migration would work.
    Actually i DO know it by now: Just install linux and offer some support.
    (Some people even recommend to stop supporting WinDos and offer help for Linux only :-)
    Did it for a friend a month ago and the result is: WinDos is used to play games now, Linux does WWW, mail, multimedia etc.
    Time for linux games now, then i can claim some more space for ext3 :-)
    1. Re:How migration works by ealar+dlanvuli · · Score: 2

      People get pissed off when you refuse to help then with windows but they know that you are compitent with MS software (I've even have them get mad in the rare situation where I actually didn't know offhand what was wrong). I only recomend this route to the very strong willed.

      --
      I live in a giant bucket.
  88. Re: Spain by opkool · · Score: 2

    Same case here.

    And don't even get me stated in the huge difference in vacation time (2 weeks in the USA, 1 month in Spain). Nor the food quality ("quality food in the US" is an oxymoron.)

    The "benefits" that I get are some of the best around here, or so I've been told. But they are a P.O.S., comparing to what I was getting in Spain.

    If I had been out of work in Spain, I would have had some kind of money from the unemployment insurance. In the US, when you are out of work, that's your problem.

    And, if you dig in the cost of Healthcare around the world, you'll discover:

    - The cost for Healthcare in the US is more expensive than in Europe. But it's not better.

    - Less people gets healthcare coverage in the US than in Europe. Where's democaracy?

    - In the US, people expends more % of their paychecks in Healthcare than in Europe.

    - With insurance and all the stuff, visit the E.R. and end paying at least $300. Again, this is with insurance. No cost of E.R. visits in Spain.

    See? There's something wrong. I'm so ready to go back!

  89. Last Post! by alpg · · Score: 1

    Excerpt from a conversation between a customer support person and a
    customer working for a well-known military-affiliated research lab:

    Support: "You're not our only customer, you know."
    Customer: "But we're one of the few with tactical nuclear weapons."

    - this post brought to you by the Automated Last Post Generator...