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Tivo and SonicBlue Settle Dispute
Shippy writes "According to this article at the Stereophile Guide to Home Theatre, Tivo and SonicBlue have
decided to dismiss all patent-infringement claims 'without prejudice' and instead focus their energies on energizing the DVR market. 'We believe our energies are better spent expanding the market for DVRs rather than fighting each other,' the former adversaries said in a joint statement. The article also discusses their plans for marketing and also how they plan to respond to criticisms that the DVR market is doomed."
competing companies working together?
prepare for meltdown in 3.....2....1....
IANAL
but if I read this right, this means that if they feel like suing each other over this in the future because they have a falling out, they are completely free to call in the lawyers and have at it.
Sort of like two mafioso movie types, each with a shot gun at the throat of the other. Backing off might be a smart move.
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"
I agree with this totally...there's more than enough market share out there for both SonicBlue and Tivo. We need to educate people about PVRs, and the functionality that the media is trying to remove from them...not spend money on lawsuits like this.
I picture a running back (football for those less informed) charging down the field and a defender setting up to tackle him. Then BLAMO! the running back plasters the dude and keeps on going.
The defender gets up, dusts himself off and says, "You know, I think you're right. Maybe we should just let this go and concern ourselves more with the offence. K?"
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
"According to this article [that I made up], [the US Govt] and [msft] have decided to dismiss all [anti-trust suits] 'without prejudice' and instead focus their energies on energizing the [us ecomony]. 'We believe our energies are better spent expanding the market for [aol] rather than fighting each other,' the former adversaries said in a joint statement. The article also discusses their plans for marketing and also how they plan to respond to criticisms that the [] market is doomed."
I swear they used an automatic press release generator for this one!
The DVR market is hurting badly, and it won't be long until the two companies are forced to merge just to stay alive. Some markets can't handle competition (like the market paymybills.com exists in, it had to merge with a competitor just to stay afloat).
:-)
My personal thoughts are it's the monthly charge that keeps this market from going anywhere (it's why I won't buy). But none the less, these two companies are ultimately going to merge or end up playing so nice with each other they'll be borderline illegal in their cooperation. At that point, the MPAA and big media might just encourage the government to investigate them.
Or I could be entirely wrong
Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
If they are going to survive, it should be based on thier systems individual merits, not who has the deepest pocket book and/or best lawyer.
These companies have cranked out some very innovative products, for which they deserve much kudos and high praise. But between competition from the gatekeepers (cable and satellite TV companies), Japanese consumer electronics companies, and do-it-yourself PC-based solutions, they don't have much ground to stand on. Selling out to DirecTV or AT&T Cable while they still can is probably their best and safest bet.
From reading the article, it seems that both companies are getting pressure from other vendors who "are incorporating features into set-top boxes". Is this to say that these vendors are going at it alone? Why wouldn't they license the technology from one of these companies? Does this mean further diverging standards? It seems to me that Tivo could go to a DirecTV-like model by getting their technology licensed, subsidized and ultimately built-in to future hardware (I was recently suprised how many TV's have DirecTV built in). Am I missing something here??
Wasn't this posted the other day?
...and focuses instead on furthering the technology?
Sounds like radio with pictures; it'll never fly.
Emacs: for people who just never know when to
I wouldn't really say that the DVR industry is doomed as such. When the cassette tape first came out, it was believed that it would be the "big killer" as they were inexpensive and you could copy them easily. Then the big hype was with CD's, then MP3 (not OGG :(), and now DVD's (or DVR's as the case may be). Embracing new technology is how these are overcome, and it's good to see Tivo and SonicBlue focusing on this.
how they plan to respond to criticisms that the DVR market is doomed.
I wont buy a PVR right now, due to the monthly payment required. I already have too many monthly payments in my life - I dont need one more. And, I don't want to pay UBER stupid prices for a 'lifetime' subscription.
I want a PVR that will act just like a VCR - programmable, by channel and time. Too much to ask? Is there something out there that will do what I want, that isn't a DIY soloution?
"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground." - Thomas Jefferson
Everyone I know who owns a PVR (including me) says the same two things:
-1) I love it and will never, ever give it up.
-2) It's nearly impossible to explain why I feel this way to anyone who doesn't own a PVR themselves.
IMO, #2 is the principal difficulty for SonicBlue and Tivo.
-Cal
Because neither company can afford lawyers!
"...they plan to respond to criticisms that the DVR market is doomed."
Time Warner doesn't think it's doomed. They just launched the Explorer 8000 Digital Video Recorder here in Austin, TX.Warning! Keep Out of Eyes! Wash Out with Water! Don't Drink Soap! Dilute! Dilute!
The TIVO is still pretty much doomed.
sonic blue at least let's me set the unit's clock, while the TIVO requires that I let them do it.
until Tivo can be purchased and never allowed to dial home AND function properly as a Digital VCR (record at XX:XXpm for 1 hour call it foobar1) I and several others will never buy one.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
SonicBlue: U STOLE ARE TECHNOLOGEY!!!1!!! Tivo: FUK U!! SonicBlue: OMG WE CULD CONBINE ARE SKILLZ AND BE ElITE! Tivo: OMG!!!! YES!!11!!!!!!!!
OK. this seems as good a place as any...
I am looking into getting a DVR. I don't want to pay a montly fee or 'lifetime' fee. What I initially want to do is use it as I use my VCR. Set the time and record. I don't need it searching out new things to watch.
Where can I find out which (if any) DVRs will let me do this? Is there an FAQ on DVRs somewhere I can read?
Thanks
we are spending money like mad, and here is good way to slow that down a bit.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
OK.
Lets look at the last financial statements for TiVo inc. Quarter to July 31, 2002.
Sales $23.9m, up about 6x. (Yep, c. 600%)
Gross profit $16.3m
Less R&D ($4.5m), Sales & Marketing ($5.6m & 3.4m), and General & Administrative ($1.1m).
Operating loss for the quarter, $1.1m, against $34.5m a year ago.
TiVo doomed? Do the math.
--- My dad's political betting
The article also discusses their plans for marketing and also how they plan to respond to criticisms that the DVR market is doomed." 'With luck and enough of a spin on it, perhaps we can pull enough wool over people's eyes that they dont realize that the DVR market is already dead... we're just hoping there are enough sheep in the world for all the wool we'll need for that feat.'
At least, that's my translation of it...
- Rob
WebMaster:
BinFeeds
XXX Thumbnailed Image Newsgroups but
The "Back 8 seconds" button.
You never realize how handy it is until it's not there. Also, I don't know how many times I wished I had just that button on my stereo: "Where was that accident? Speed trap, etc" again?
Yeah, but PVR is a technology looking for a business model.
When can we expect some innovation, or even product? I've wanted to buy a DirecTivo for over a year, and they've been sold out everywhere! I looked into a non-tivo version, and they were sold out everywhere (at least in retail stores) for 5-6 months. The series 2 doesn't have directv support built in and I don't believe it added anything other than extra storage. Plus nobody is saying anything about recording HD yet are they? It seems to me that there is a serious lack of innovation and that Tivo has shot themselves in the foot by making it difficult to buy their product. Mabye DVHS really will be the way to go? While the disadvantages to direct access are obvious (not to mention some difficulty in timeshifting) the quality is amazing...
/. and Tivo (used to be?) hacker friendly the article gets posted. Well, this might be slightly OT, but the article just above this one is more important, and affects 120 million people - After 5 years, CE Makers and Cable Industry Agree on Standards.
A bit OT, Tivo & SonicBlue have about a million subscribers combined. I guess that since this is
Karma: Mostly tasty due to extra virgin olive oil.
Now if that isn't proof that the PVR marked IS DOOMED
--- Eat my sig.
Ok, fine. They aren't little boys. I made that up I swear. They are little girls.
LOL.. this was modded as +2 Insightful for a couple minutes..
I just hope that the Replay listing updates will last long enough for me to be able to afford the replacement!
I love my Replay and would would give up my dvd players before I'd go back to only VCR for recording.
Does that make sense?
Anything you say will be held against you.
They could create a separate company jointly owned (50/50) which provides data to both ReplayTV and Tivo customers in a standard format that they agree on. With new software upgrades all exisitng systems could then "dial home" to get this new format. They could then provide this to other companies for a fee. Or even individuals who build their own boxes? A longshot but it would mean that they could then focus on new hardware and shipping boxes menawhile owning a stake in the tvguide service.
if it can't set its own time, it can't record shows by the timer. you might be able to record live tv, but that's about it (how can you tell it to record the Simpsons at 8pm, when it doesn't know what time it is currently?)
IANAL, but I play one on
go to panasonic and buy one of these... screw messing with some locked in junk that will not let you archive...
HDD storage and then you can write it out to a DVD-R. why would you buy a Tivo other than being a few hundred cheaper.
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
You mean, like, midgets?
I'm not big on TV, but my spousal overunit is and is currently doing the Tivo-ReplayTV pre-purchase research, and apparently the "lifetime" service fee is for the "lifetime" of the unit you purchase. If you get a new box, even from the same provider, you get to pony up that fee again.
It's the fees that'll kill them. Good technology, not the right marketing strategy for this stage of the game. Make it cheap until you get a solid, self-sustaining user base.
Uh... have you looked at either TiVo, Inc. or SonicBlue?
They're hardly "megacompanies" or megacorps.
Yes, this is precisely what they're going to do. Good for them. They thought of the idea first, implemented it (i.e. - they didn't just patent it and sit on their asses waiting for someone else to do it), and they expect to make a return on investment on it.
What's so horrible about that? It's called capitalism. I find it ironic that you'd call it communism.
Uh, my TiVo records a given channel start at X time and end at X time... It's under "Manual Record" or some similarly-named menu.
If you never let it dial in (mine uses my local network (DSL) connectoin), then all you've got is a basic VCR with no program knowledge. I have heard of a hack where you can set up your own server for it to dial into for program guides, but I don't follow the Tivo hacking market much...
-mrv
Midgets will do if they must.
Exactly the type of behavior that makes the patent system (I feel) unfair. If I take a patent out on a idea I don't see that I should be allowed to prevent anyone else from ever using that idea - nor should I be able to set royalty rates or licence conditions to a level that accomplishes the same thing. If I have an idea that improves on another patented idea there should be a process that determines whether awarding me a 'mandatory licence' would be better for the consumer than allowing the original patent 'owner' to continue their monopoly... unrealistic I know...
It's not that I'm Anti-American - I'm Pro-Freedom
How about two wide receevers holding eahc other and tripping each other everyime the ball is thrown, in order to get more catches individually. But then they realize there's plenty of passing going on, stop interfering with eachother and more than double receptions!
I don't know why you think they're on opposite teams. It's not like sales in one directly correlate in losses for the other.
Moderation: Put your hand inside the puppet head!
I was reading through the specs and I can't tell if this records hdtv as well. Also, it doesn't appear to have home network capabilities. Anyone know of a dvr that does either or both of these things? THanx
Romeo & Juliet for 1337 hax0rz! http://www.redcoat.net/pics/romjul.swf
oligopoly Pronunciation Key (l-gp-l, l-) n. pl. oligopolies
A market condition in which sellers are so few that the actions of any one of them will materially affect price and have a measurable impact on competitors.
Now watch what happens when they band together...
is the dang set-top box. They're on the wrong side of a hardware fence from being able to get to the right channel at the right time. Yeah, yeah, I know, they have those "IR Blaster" things to control the boxes. But there's just something about those things that SEEMS failure-bound - whether they really are or not, it's enough to generate resistance.
The interface on my DishPVR sucks compared to a ReplayTV or Tivo. But it has what they never will - integrated direct control of all channels, and accurate schedule info.
It doesn't have to be like that. I lived in a city once where the cable company put the controls over what you were allowed to see into their phone-pole boxes. You just plugged your cable into your TV or VCR, no dorky little box required. But then, it was a small local cable company, too. And no longer exists. Insert usual moral here.
Be forewarned in taking this advice: a Tivo Series 2 is less hackable -- the boot PROM is encrypted and/or hashed, and it executes a routine to wipe non-default init scripts. Getting a bash prompt is not possible (yet), AFAIK. If you want bash prompt/telnet/TivoWeb/file extraction, you need a series one standalone or any DirectTivo. Adding hard drives is fine with a 60-hour Series 2, but I'm told is more problematic with the 80-hour.
This information, however, is from the proud owner of an HDD-upgraded 60hr Series II, who couldn't care less: Dumping television content to DVD? Sounds ok in certain instances, but not a requirement. What are you, a librarian? If you put a couple of 120GB hard drives in a Tivo (voiding the warranty, mind you), you can keep the stuff you'd like to review again until you're completely tired of it. TV content, IMO, is totally disposable. Once I'm finished watching it, it can fall off "the pile" as more stuff gets recorded. If I want to watch it again after that, well, it'll be repeated. Everything is, anyway, ad nauseum.
I've had a TiVo for a couple years now; I did the math and paid the 'lifetime' fee knowing it was for the life of the box. I think it's been a good investment: there have been a few software updates that added features I really wanted. I do wish i could access it via the net though.
My big gripe now is that my cable company is pushing digital, and they just switched their movie channels so you HAD to use their box instead of just the cable traps. I cancelled my movie channels rather than wrestle with the stupid blaster.
It seems like these guys and the nets should want to support things like TiVo to keep people away from the more dangerous MyTV where you can easily record shows right on your computer and burn DVDs. (Though I'd like one of those).
I love my season pass and wishlist features, and I never watch live TV anymore. I do FF through commercials, but if I see something interesting I'll go back. But since I'm not in the market for a car right now I am SO glad I can skip all the car commercials. TiVo could be a way to offer more targeted marketing...
Yes, it can record by channel and time and do the live broadcast pausing, etc all without a subscription. What you'll be missing is updating TV Guide data, and easier subscriptions, as well as suggestions and freebies from Tivo itself. If all you want is a digital VCR with no frills and no subscriptions, go grab a Tivo .. It'll do that on its own without a subscription.
Two notes:
1) The DirecTV combo versions of the Series 2 devices are shipping within a week or two.
2) If you have DirecTV and use the combo receivers, you only have to pay $5, no matter how many combo receivers you have. You still have to pay the $5-per-receiver charge that DirecTV charges for extra receivers of any type.
Hello dear companies. Now that you're getting along, could I PLEASE be permitted to buy your products. Me and my fellow canucks would very much like to prevent the doom of your market by welcoming you with open arms into our stores and give you our money, while it's still worth something. Now I know that you've been ignoring us for the few last years but we're willing to forgive you and pay for your services. Thank you for your attention... Oh, btw, Canada is that small country just north of the USA, you should be able to find quite easily.
Otherwise it is useless to me.. This is the main thing I like about Tivo .. I set my shows up and the Tivo knows when they are on, and if they get moved to a different day for a week like most programs do for one reason or another, it knows about it and adjusts accordingly. Manual isn't good enough for todays generation. I like it all automated. That's kinda the whole point behind Tivo...
I agree, I think they have a right to this IP. They were the first with the technology.
I think they will pool their patents and offer licensing to their competitors.
This will allow the competitors to do one stop shopping for their IP clearance.
It will also allow dissuade outright infringement because 2x times patent coverage is harder to engineer around or bluff your way out of.
OTOH they could attempt to exclude others from the technology but then , since they would be cooperating IP wise between thenselves they would have to be careful with anti competitive(price fixing) issues.
I do not think they they have the luxury to consider such anti competitive behavior (if they were inclined to do so) because of competition from other technologies.
Guess what? It's no longer the case that ReplayTV requires no monthly fee. SonicBlue dropped the prices on the ReplayTV units, and made up for this by switching to a monthly service fee, just like TiVo. You're still allowed to pay one lump sum up front for your service, however -- but you'd have to keep your ReplayTV service for over 2 years to break even compared to the monthly payment plan.
I think SonicBlue made this change to stimulate purchasing of the newer ReplayTV units, which were otherwise too expensive for most consumers to bother with. Most average consumers are more willing to pay less up front and pay for a monthly service charge of approximately $10.
I first found out about this change one day when I paused my ReplayTV unit, and after returning from my break saw that an ad was displayed on-screen -- an ad for the newest ReplayTV units, now at a "new, lower price." Obviously, for those of us who already own ReplayTV units, we'll continue to enjoy service without paying a monthly fee. Newcomers will have to choose which plan they want.
That's eactly what Xilinx & Altera (>50% market share) can do to anyone that wants to step foot in the FPGA business. They have pretty much all the patents to shut out the competition and they are on a cease fire right now.
I do not think that these companies have forgotten about their selfish patents.
I think that Sony, Pioneer, etc. are well aware that these companies are not suffering "patent memory loss".
I furthermore do not think that their selfish shareholders have chosen to invest in companies that forget about patents that have been acquired by spending the shareholders' dollars on R&D.
Theoretically, yes, but I'm guessing that that is probably intentionally inconvenient to transfer. Just a guess, but...
For a Tivo with lifetime, you give the box to someone else. Then.. well.. you're done. Oh, you can call Tivo to tell them that the box is now owned by Bob Downthestreet, but you don't have to. The Tivo identifies itself on every connection by means of the unique serial number burned into a chip on the motherboard. The lifetime subscription is tied to that number.
I suspect it won't. While research is being diligently done, right now it's sort of a battle between "TiVO is cheaper, and my friend Scott has one" versus "Damnit, I didn't run Ethernet into the family room so that we could buy a box that uses a @$%^ing serial modem."
The Series 2 Tivo's can connect to an ethernet for their connectivity by means of a cheap $10 USB->Ethernet adapter. It's "unofficial" but it does indeed work. The main requirement is that your LAN has a DHCP server on it to hand the Tivo an address and a gateway, so that it can connect to the internet. Nearly all home router type boxes (like the Linksys, for example) do this job just fine. My Tivo calls home via my cable modem, for example.
Series 1 boxes have no USB connector, but ethernet cards can be purchased for them nonetheless, at www.9thtee.com.
- Give a man a fire and he's warm for a day, but set him on fire and he's warm for the rest of his life.
I just ordered a DirecTivo from Orbitsat a week ago and it just arrived Friday. This was a series 1 model. Supposely they should have the series 2 in by now too. I don't know what retail stores carry them but you can get them if you look around.
Xerox, when it was first getting started, had the same problem with getting offices to install and pay for copy machines, so they came up with a scheme of installing machines that tracked how many copies were made for free, with a bill at the end of the month at some cheap rate per copy. Of course, once people got used to how convenient they were, they started using the copier like crazy, and the businesses quickly bought machines that they weren't billed for at the end of the month.
I wonder if the PVR folks can't have a free unit that is somehow metered, so that with a little bit of use people will soon realize that it's cheaper to buy the unit outright, and will do so.
Both DirecTv and AT&T sell a DVR that is "powered by Tivo." DirecTv is just getting ready to release their version, it will be under the Hughes brand.
DirecTv DVR
Old7
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I do not account for the criminal terminology, as that is not my baliwick. In the civil domain, however, particular in patent litigation -- an area in which I practice, you have it exactly backwards.
A case dismissed with prejudice may not be renewed, permitting an absolute defense of claim or issue preclusion (res judicata and collateral estoppel). A case dismissed without prejudice may be renewed without permitting a prior adjudication defense, subject to statutes of limitation and other time bars that may get in the way.
Moreover, the voluntary dismissal might give rise to an inference that none of the alleged inferences create irreparable harm (otherwise how could they have dismissed?), possibly precluding certain forms of injunctive relief.
My favorite PVR (in this case replaytv) feature? There are several. The main things are:
1) It has changed the way I watch TV. I watch what I want when I want...
2) If I am watching live (or recorded) tv, I can pause and answer the phone or the door. I can also rewind back (yes, live tv) and watch that last joke that that my wife talked over. Or I can see that game winning, last second dunk again in slow motion.
3) I can skip commercials... I absolutely HATE being forced to watch commercials over and over, especially on some huge TV event. It is a huge source of frustration for me. With my PVR, I can skip in 30sec (or 1min) chunks easily, but I opt for the 4x (or sometimes 16x) FF feature, so if I see a commercial whizzing by for a movie or something that looks interesting, I *can* view it if I want. However, if it's the 302nd car commercial of the day, I can skip it.
Basically, it has changed the way I watch TV, saving me time and frustration (over commercials). That is MORE than worth $10/month or the one-time-fee of a couple hundred. How much is your time worth? How much is your happiness worth?
So, to agree with the previous poster, I also love my PVR and will never, ever go back to normal non-PVR tv.
Luohua
Mag's web site has the next generation set-top box.
http://www.mag.com.tw/product/ia_netbox.htm
This must be a dvr or a set top box or both.
Specs are:
CPU - 700 MHZ
Chipset - Single Chipset with integrated graphic
TV Tuner - VHF/UHF TV Tuner
Remote Control - Ergonomic universal remote control with built in joystick
Storage 40G AV HDD
Peripheral support
VGA port
Video In RCA Jack
Video Out RCA Jack
Audio Out
Microphone Jack for kalaoke
Phone Jack
D-Sub 9Pin(RS-232)
Speaker Out R/L RCA Jack
2*RJ-11 Jack for Modem
1*RJ-45 Jack for Ethernet
Tuner RF Connecter
SPDIF for AC5.1 Decode
AC Power in
Optional
DVD/VCD/CD/MP3 Player
TV/FM Receiver
DVR(Digital Video Recorder)
Real Time Recorder
Pre-Engage Recorder
Time Shifting-Karaoke
Video Audio Recorder
CD-Recorder Application for Data Backup
I know this is off topic, but if I did an Ask /. it would be thrown out because it is boring. When does Red Dwarf air in America (USA), besides old episodes on public T.V.? Cable is fine, I am hopefully getting cable installed sometime. If the answer is in broadcast T.V.; I live in Arizona.
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