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Microsoft on Security: We'll Break Your Apps

jointm1k writes "Wired.com is running a story about how Microsoft is trying to act responsible and all by fixing (or trying to fix?) many (if not all) security holes in Windows. Not only new versions of Windows will be patched or improved, but as I understood they also plan to force security updates for older versions of Windows down peoples throats. Even if that means that some applications will mallfunction. Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows."

187 of 527 comments (clear)

  1. Life of Brian jumps to mind... by somethingwicked · · Score: 4, Funny
    .

    Brian-"There's just no pleasing some people"

    Beggar-"That's what Jesus said, sir"

    --

    ---"What did I say that sounded like 'Tell me about your day?'"---

    1. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by FortKnox · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Amen, brother!

      Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows."

      I mean, come on. When they do something right, you just GOTTA change it around to make it a negative. And you wonder why MS is after Linux, right? Who's being childish now?

      I'd really like to know how many lines of code the submitter even wrote if he is naive enough to think that MS architects would design the perfect OS from the start.

      --
      Good quote, too many chars. Seriously, the slashdot 120 char limit sucks!
    2. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by pohl · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I'm torn on this issue. After years of trade rags ignoring well-designed alternatives in the marketplace and failing to do anything besides sucking Microsoft cock, I still find it refreshing when slashdot, a mere weblog, pulls out a headline with sardonic spin. I also find it amusing that people feel the need to rush to the defense of Microsoft. Seems as silly as protecting god with a sword.

      --

      The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...

    3. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by Beliskner · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows."

      I mean, come on. When they do something right, you just GOTTA change it around to make it a negative. And you wonder why MS is after Linux, right? Who's being childish now?
      Yeah, and now Micro$oft can also force those "security" updates onto *nix systems as well, oh oooops our "security" update is incompatible with Samba, you'll just have to upgrade to WindowsXP and deal with product activation and force DRM down your throats. I'm happy with my Win 98 on my P2-450 with IE4. I don't need your IE6 with DRM auto-updates
      --
      A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
    4. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by toast0 · · Score: 2
      I'd really like to know how many lines of code the submitter even wrote if he is naive enough to think that MS architects would design the perfect OS from the start.


      In addition to the number of chances they've had to design the perfect os.... they could use better methods of software engineering such as formal methods (like Zed) so their code did what their design stated.

      I would seriously hope they didn't design the tcp/ip stack in win95 to panic as often as it did, but it was just an oversight in coding.

    5. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by Mortanius · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hear this argument time after time, regarding MS and Samba. I'm curious to hear someone say why they feel that Microsoft is obligated to maintain interoperability with Samba. It's an MS-owned technology, the specs to which aren't terribly open in terms of what's coming down the 'pike. While Microsoft is no doubt aware that Samba has become a rather integral part of many computer users' experience, both in Linux and now OS X, it's acting as something of a rope around their neck; if they wish to implement any major changes to their file sharing protocol, samba likely would be unable to operate properly with it, requiring MS to keep a certain level of backwards-compatability in the protocol if they wish to not alienate these platforms (granted, they probably don't care a whole lot about alienating Linux users, but the OS X market may be more lucrative to them.)

      In a perfect world, operating systems would be perfectly interoperable. 100% compatible operating systems don't (given less than a minute of thinking, at least) strike me as a very lucrative market. Why buy a particular OS when you can do the same with the others?

      And, to continue my downward spiral to flamebaitdom, let's address the "...and deal with product activation and force DRM down your throats." What is the big deal about product activation? You fill in the form, which only asks you what country you're from (the rest is purely optional, at least on my install CD's) and hit the submit button. That'st he end of it. I've installed WinXP on two desktops and one laptop with this CD and haven't had the MS storm troopers come knocking on my door yet. As for the DRM technologies, so far I have felt no impact from them. While it does apparently exist in Media Player, there's a simple solution around that, don't use Media Player to rip your CD's. I use this marvelous little program called CDex that does a one-stop rip from CD to MP3, Ogg, or any number of other formats. All DRM-free, plays on any computer with the proper codecs. Windows is not forced DRM-land yet, and personally, I doubt it ever will be. Right now we're hearing scares from the 'for the people' organizations about how horrible the future will be and that all this is being pushed through the system without opposition. Believe me, the instant the average consumer is impacted negatively by this, the backers of whatever measure that struck a nerve will be forced to back off.

      Good day.

    6. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by _bug_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think given Microsoft's failure at past attempts to secure its OS, the number of vulnerabilities in Microsoft products that are found each week, and the overall poor stability that the operating system offers I find Microsoft has earned the default cynicism and skepticism it faces.

      Microsoft needs to earn my trust, I will not just give it to them.

      And yes, I most certainly will give them the chance to.

    7. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by cscx · · Score: 2

      I'm happy with my Win 98 on my P2-450 with IE4.

      Then don't be an asshole and complain when things in "Micro$oft" (don't forget the $, moron!) go wrong or don't work right. All software has bugs. Deal with it. If you don't refuse to update your software, then you shouldn't complain.

      I'm fine with Linux kernel 0.0.1, but I'm pissed that it doesn't support USB or sound.

    8. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by jsse · · Score: 2

      I think he missed the point, and may be you too. We piss at MS not only for the faulty design from the ground up, but their lazy attitude toward fixing bugs and exploits until real threat is coming.

      Nobody, even Linus himself, said that Linux was designed perfectly from the ground up, but its development model makes it perfect over time, in time.

    9. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by cscx · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think you can turn DRM off in Media player. I also think the whole purpose behind it is so if you wish, you can keep people from stealing your music.

    10. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by thelexx · · Score: 2

      Right, so MS is 'after' Linux because they've been insulted? And fwiw, I've written a ton of code and yes, I do think they could have done a MUCH better job if they had paid less attention to useless features and more attention to security, etc. This has been gone over and over and over. Is it chic to defend MS now or something?

      --
      "Gold still represents the ultimate form of payment in the world." - Alan Greenspan, 1999
    11. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by Deth_Master · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The thing is though, that when the kernel version increased, it improved on things. In certain versions of windows (ex: ME) stuff went downhill instead of an improvement.
      Another point is that the updates aren't fixing bugs, they are creating them, in a way. The security holes that, for the most part, have been plugged by other methods, that are being fixed may end up breaking a number of other programs. That's not a good reason to update your software. You should update software to make it work better with all the other software, not necessarily just to update. If your 0.0.1 kernel works for everything you need to do then you have no reason to upgrade.

      I think that its good that MS is fixing the security bugs, but they should not fix them if it breaks other programs. That would force other companies to adapt to rewriting the software (can you say monopoly?). That's akin to changing the roads to rails and expecting the people to get their cars adapted or whatever. It's not the best analogy, but it's close.

      Unfortunately, we may have no choice but to accept their updates and patches and hope that they are smart enough to not break too many other programs, or at least provide work arounds.

      $0.02

      --
      find ~your -name '*base* | xargs chown :us
    12. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by cblood · · Score: 2, Informative

      "It's an MS-owned technology, the specs to which aren't terribly open in terms of what's coming down the 'pike. "

      smb is an IBM protocol. It existed long before microsoft started mangling it.

    13. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by wandernotlost · · Score: 2
      I mean, come on. When they do something right, you just GOTTA change it around to make it a negative. And you wonder why MS is after Linux, right? Who's being childish now?

      Microsoft has quite a long record of acting very irresponsibly in the security arena, and acting hideously in general. I don't spend my money on companies that I don't consider to be ethical, if I can help it. Further, you're naive if you think that a single announcement that on the surface appears well-intentioned, even if in fact it is, demonstrates cause for anyone to begin trusting Microsoft. They have shown us many times in the past their ulterior motives, and sneaky behavior when it comes to purporting to do one thing when underneath something else altogether - almost invariably self-serving - is accomplished.

      It is certainly not unreasonable to be suspicious of their actions, and critical of their performance. As recently as a few weeks ago we were discussing the DRM that MS was sneaking in with "security updates." And you think that MS deserves our good faith? Come on!

      Oh, and it's a bit preposterous to suggest that Microsoft is going after Linux because of childish comments on Slashdot. You might want to think that one through a little more.

    14. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by walt-sjc · · Score: 2

      You know, defending MS is a VERY tough job. MS has TONS of chances to fix things for Win2K and XP yet chose NOT to. I'm not talking buffer overflows and such here, I'm talking REALLY basic design decisions. MS has consistantly chosen the other option when making security related design decisions. The excuse has been "our users are asking for that".

      People have been bitching for YEARS about the way MS sets the default settings as wide fucking open. The default settings (especially on home systems) still allow users to read and write every file on the system. Outlook and friends still are wide open to viruses / worms. Until the DEFAULT setting of windows forbids normal users (applications) from fucking with the system directory without entering the special admin password (like OSX or pretty much any other modern OS on the planet) then I (and most security concious people) will continue to hammer on MS to improve.

      MS's security initiatives have historically been nothing but lip service. MAYBE they are changing, but I will remain skeptical until I see REAL change. MS's "we're secure" claims are like the boy who cried wolf.

      Anyway, if you want to stick your head in the sand and ignore the last 5 years of windows insecurity, be my guest. Frankly, it's childish to ignore history.

    15. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by loginx · · Score: 2, Informative

      You seem to be forgetting that samba is _not_ used only for compatibility with existing microsoft network.
      I don't run windows on any of my boxes here but they all use samba for sharing files, partitions and printers.
      If microsoft wants to show me that my castle is not so big, I welcome them to make any change they want to their implementation of the protocol, while I'll just watch from my castle :)

    16. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by schlach · · Score: 2

      What the hell are you talking about??! +4?? Has the whole world gone mad??

      What security updates are you talking about? MS writes security updates for Linux? What DRM? And why are you railing away at M$ like the most rabid linux user (disclaimer-I am a linux user, just not rabid) and then copping to running win98 and IE4?

      I wish I could suicide-bomb the parent post, and lose two karma to knock it down two points or so. It's not logical, not well formed, not grammatically correct, not contributive... at least it has certainly captured the primal rage that I often find so illuminative in rational conversations...

      This article is obviously another troll, along the same lines as yesterday's ".NET Server is Longhorn is cancelled". I was reading along nicely at 3* and listening to people complain about how unfair the editors have been recently, and then I found this post. Knocked out my whole theory of "intelligence floats, stupid sinks".

    17. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by jrwyant · · Score: 2

      Or Microsoft could use NFS/CUPS/etc. Or when they come up with a new standard, they could publish the RFCs etc., interoperability would not be a concern, right?

    18. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by aengblom · · Score: 2

      I still find it refreshing when slashdot, a mere weblog, pulls out a headline with sardonic spin. I also find it amusing that people feel the need to rush to the defense of Microsoft. Seems as silly as protecting god with a sword.

      I'd imagine that some people just find baseless criticism is more likely to backfire then do any damage to Microsoft.

      --


      So close and yet so far from the world's perfect ID number
    19. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by sean23007 · · Score: 2

      Interesting comparison. Protecting Microsoft with words is like protecting god with a sword. If that is true, it follows that Microsoft is, or is at least akin to, a god. But since it is often said that the pen is mightier than the sword, the more powerful method of protection is used for Microsoft, which is therefore greater. So, according to your claim, Microsoft is greater than God.

      And yes, in case you were wondering, that was quite specious. I've been reading Tertullian, give me a break.

      --

      Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
    20. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by nolife · · Score: 2

      I'm curious to hear someone say why they feel that Microsoft is obligated to maintain interoperability with Samba.

      You are giving the impression that Samba works because of something Microsoft is doing or not doing. That is definately not the case. Samba works because the Samba team adapts and makes it work with Microsoft, it would be much easier for the Samba team (and anyone else) if MS would release some specs that were useful so they would not have to reverse engineer everything. Any older compatibility left in Windows is too allow MS's own older versions to still work, its not hanging around for Samba compatibility.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    21. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by PatJensen · · Score: 2
    22. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by pohl · · Score: 2
      Speaking of defense of reason, have you actually demonstrated that these attacks come from the same people? It would, indeed, be a hypocrisy for the same person to both decry the lack of concern for security and a move to address it, but is this actually what's happening here?

      Or are all of the people leaping to the defense of microsoft doing so merely because they've read both kinds of bitching in the pages of slashdot.

      Because, you see, if I bitch about one position and another slashdotter bitches about the other, it's not hypocrisy.

      It's only hypocrisy when the same person expresses both.

      --

      The "cue the foo posts in 3, 2, 1..." posts will commence with no subsequent foo posts in 3, 2, 1...

    23. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by Beliskner · · Score: 2
      Then don't be an asshole and complain when things in "Micro$oft" (don't forget the $, moron!) go wrong or don't work right. All software has bugs. Deal with it. If you don't refuse to update your software, then you shouldn't complain
      I'm not complaining. The reboot button on my Win98 is well-used and acts as a constant reminder that I should keep frequent backups, bit like a log fire reminds you about fireproofing, and having an old Chevy reminds you to be nice to hitch-hikers.

      I want to install apps in 10 years on my Win '98 without having .NET runtime DRM-enabled forced down my thrown, and likewise linux-man won't want DRM-enabled glibc and Mono shoved onto his hard drive either just to compile and run awk.

      How the hell will Micro$oft propogate these "updates" to old systems? Are they gonna use a buffer overflow in a safe ActiveX control to "update" my computer?

      Real Crypto = Paranoid Schizoprenic minus Schizophrenic

      --
      A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
    24. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by Jace+of+Fuse! · · Score: 3

      if you wish, you can keep people from stealing your music.

      For now, you can turn off DRM. How long will that last?

      As for your theory on keeping others from stealing your music, I doubt that was the intent.

      From what I can tell, it was formualated out of hopes that the media cartel would be able to feel comfortable selling songs online to users.

      Microsoft knows that Windows Media Player fights a battle on many fronts, from Real to QuickTime to free alternatives. Knowing this, they hoped that they could sell the idea of online media protected with DRM to those who stand to gain the most from it.

      In a perfect world, DRM would be a choice, the RIAAs and MPAAs of the world could pawn their crap off to willing cutomers, and nobody would complain about the existance of MP3, OGG, and DivX.

      Unfortunately big Media wants DRM to be obligatory and Microsoft wants to run the digital information arena. They both have something to gain from it, so to hell with the wishes of the users.

      --

      "Everything you know is wrong. (And stupid.)"

      Moderation Totals: Wrong=2, Stupid=3, Total=5.
    25. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by Beliskner · · Score: 2
      What security updates are you talking about? What DRM?
      The security updates Micro$oft said it'll force down users' throats somehow, maybe via a buffer overflow in an ActiveX control or something. There's already an ActiveX control that does this - http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com. If Micro$oft sticks a few of these up instead of Gator, we'll have a web minefield, Win '98 machines will be crashed one by one until WinXP-DRM is the only remaining OS.

      This can happen with app upgrades as well, when the .NET DRM-compliant runtime is required to run applications in the future just like the MFC libraries are now. Linux is not immune as when DRM-compliant Mono runtimes and DRM-glibc are required for compiling and running awk we'll be taken over.

      Knocked out my whole theory of "intelligence floats, stupid sinks".
      Dude, shit floats too. My comment is good though, sorry I don't have 6 hours spare to write a 50-page grammatically correct English essay for you, what with the company I work for getting out of software and diversifying into catering. Cooking instead of coding is a kinda nice change. Anyway, if you'll excuse me I have to write a Perl script and then sautee some shallots for our client tonight.
      And why are you railing away at M$ like the most rabid linux user (disclaimer-I am a linux user, just not rabid) and then copping to running win98 and IE4
      I have a winmodem
      not contributive
      See above
      It's not logical
      Live long and prosper
      not grammatically correct
      What's you a sayin? People is gonna die?
      at least it has certainly captured the primal rage that I often find so illuminative in rational conversations...
      <blink> WHAT? I'M GONNA KICK YOUR ASS!!! </blink>
      I was reading along nicely at 3*
      I'm sorry my post wasn't considered conformant, conservative and dull like the other posts, at worst I'm RMS in disguise ;-)
      I wish I could suicide-bomb the parent post, and lose two karma to knock it down two points or so.
      Well done, now you can meet the giant Shish kebab in the sky. Hey I guess this makes you rabid too ;-)
      --
      A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
    26. Re:Life of Brian jumps to mind... by Beliskner · · Score: 2
      They can illegally abuse a monopoly and still make money, because they could outfight and outplan the Clinton administration, and the Bush administration doesn't want a fight
      Why would a Government want to fight a succesful company with hundreds of thousands of employees? If they won, all they would gain is new welfare claimants.
      would produce a consumer backlash, and more people would switch to Mac and Linux, which would cost Microsoft money. If Microsoft loses money, it can't pay its employees (well, after a couple years..), so they leave, and Microsoft doesn't exist anymore.
      I don't think you understand how much money they have - Micro$oft's expenses are minimal, and Bill Boy Gates can pay the severance for 100% of his employees with his pocket change in the event of bad times.

      As with all conspiracy theories, the media must be in league with them, to achieve this all Micro$oft has to do is blackmail Rupert Murdoch and CEO of AoL/TW then that's 90% of the media covered. Centralised ownership of the media brings with it the power of blackmail over these owners.

      If Micro$oft had advance knowledge of its own collapse, it would invest in Apple and Redhat, then it would fire all of its employees. This'll make Micro$oft money even out of the destruction of its own product.

      so the overflow couldn't be in ActiveX. Fourth of all, attempting to 0wN machines that just surf to its websites would be illegal, like criminally illegal, not just antitrust-illegal.
      Really? I remember reading on IDG that AoL barred MSN Messenger users from AoL IM by using a buffer overflow present in AoL IM. Nothing happened to AoL.

      As IT transitions from a fancy product into an infrastructural requirement, the ability to switch to competition tends to zero. As an example, if your electricity company said that they'd give everybody normal electricity, except to YOU - they'd give you a 600V DC rail and an Earth rail. Good luck trying to find a DC washing machine. You'd throw in the towel and give the electricity company whatever they want. They already do this - if you connect very inductive high power-factor motors to the mains power line they'll cut you off.

      If Micro$oft buffer overflows your system in order to upgrade your OS from Win '98 to WinXP-DRM, they're upgrading your product. You can't sue them and claim damages - what damage have they caused? They've upgraded your product without your permission, the only way you can claim damages is to say, "I want to illegally(?) download MP3s and DivX so I hereby forthwith herein sue Micro$oft for damages incurred in my future by the illegal actions they have blocked me from performing"

      If you wanted to take the DRM out, you could, and recompile. Fairly trivial, at least until we're all running trusted hardware platforms. And we all pray that day never comes
      With the collapse of the commercial PGP.com I'm worried that we'll see a large number of very important closed-source linux apps becoming de facto standards like Kylix runtime. When trusted hardware arrives I'll be the first guy to clone it with my Altera FPGA kit
      Hate to use your post as a counter-example, but it really didn't fit into the +4 category.
      A Taliban moderator might disagree. I'm sure you're aware that paedophiles can moderate Slashdot too, when they get the chance. You shouldn't be surprised by moderations outside your wishes. I was talking with my psychiatrist Uncle who's a shrink for Cambridge graduates that overstretch themselves (majority of them, especially Maths). He tells me that half of the people in the world are insane/stupid/thieves/murderers. I asked him, "Which half?" He pointed his finger at me and told me that that was the exact problem.
      --
      A caveman dreams of being us, the incalculable power and riches. We dream of being Q, then what?
  2. Applications will mallfunction?!? by Voytek · · Score: 5, Funny

    Is that the new niche for software designed for teenage girls?

    1. Re:Applications will mallfunction?!? by Marc2k · · Score: 2, Funny

      Ooo...maybe Windows now comes with backpacks

      --
      --- What
  3. Rock and a hard place by tylerdave · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Assuming Microsoft does actually want to clean up their act, which I'm highly skeptical about, it seems that they'd be criticized for forcing updates just as much as they would for not trying to make adoption of the updates widespread.

    1. Re:Rock and a hard place by mauryisland · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why wouldn't they want to clean up their act? I'd imagine that this will lead to their *loyal* customer base always jump for their latest and greatest releases. New Windows, new apps, new everything, all ready for Palladium!

    2. Re:Rock and a hard place by Fugly · · Score: 2

      Assuming Microsoft does actually want to clean up their act, which I'm highly skeptical about, . . .

      Ok, lets be realistic here. When it comes to security, I don't think there's a question of whether or not Microsoft wants windows to be secure. The question is, are they able to make it secure.

      You can argue that MS is evil due to their business practices. You can argue that they are incapable of producing anything other than bug riddled, insecure pieces of bloatware. But lets get real. It's not like they intentionally put the security holes into their products just to hurt their users. All of this makes for extremely bad press and I'm sure MS would like nothing more for it to go away.

    3. Re:Rock and a hard place by Chaswell · · Score: 2

      This has actually been their tactic all along. They always market the latest release or upgrade as fixing so many of the problems from before. When I used to be a network admin I hated getting the question from management, "Have we looked in to the new release from MS, think it will fix that problem we've been having?" I can only think to my self that no it will not fix the keyboard he dropped coffee cake in to.

    4. Re:Rock and a hard place by Queuetue · · Score: 2

      A loyal, educated, trusting customer base wouldn't need a shotgun forced to thier heads to make them apply patches.

      People don't apply MS patches because a) They were told the OS was perfect when they bought it, or b) they remember the last patch, the one that made the office unbearable for two weeks, or c) They've been burned by the MS upgrade licensing cycle enough times that they'd rather hope for the best than volunteer for the worst.

    5. Re:Rock and a hard place by Queuetue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The only thing MS "wants" is to increase revenue. Secure systems are typically less friendly. Therefore, until now, MS has not wanted thier systems to be secure.

      Now, the flak from Nimda, melissa, et. al. have begun to impact thier market share (or thier internal analysts believe the market will follow that trend), and they have started to give lip-service to security.

      But they still can't alienate that customer base they spent 20 years numbing into ignorance. Will we see real security? Not for long time. Will we see secure "wrappers" around the inherently insecure MS offerings? Yes, but I guarantee there will be ways to disable them immediately if it impacts revenue.

      BTW, there's nothing wrong with a company's management considering market growth and revenue when making decisions. Decent people do, and temper it with service to the greater community, morality, and improving the lives of thier employees and customers. MS operates as though all of those issues are served by the marketing department.

    6. Re:Rock and a hard place by Iamthefallen · · Score: 2

      Big problem is, marketing is strong in MS. Ready or not, shipdates have to be met, features are more important than security, simplicity more important than reliability. Mostly all MS products suffer from the same flaws: Excellent idea, poor execution. Licensing schemes from hell, forced updates, strange product activation systems, DRM etc etc. These aren't bad ideas from the techs, they're things that marketing will push to increase short term revenue.

      It wasn't until security problems actually started to hurt MS that they turned to focus on them. I believe, that if techs ran MS instead of marketing, we'd see a very different platform.

      --
      Wax-Museum Fire Results In Hundreds Of New Danny DeVito Statues
    7. Re:Rock and a hard place by Nintendork · · Score: 2
      "Assuming Microsoft does actually want to clean up their act, which I'm highly skeptical about"

      Yeah, god forbid Microsoft may want to make their software more secure in order to retain their current business customers while gaining more. Microsoft would never do anything good to make money. As a satanic organization, they only do evil things to make money.

      Gimme a freaking break.

    8. Re:Rock and a hard place by Xerithane · · Score: 2

      As a satanic organization, they only do evil things to make money.

      Welcome to Slashdot. Where black is black and white is black, too.

      --
      Dacels Jewelers can't be trusted.
    9. Re:Rock and a hard place by Queuetue · · Score: 2

      Companies don't make decisions. A "company" is nothing more than a ficticious entity with a a Tax ID. People make the decisions in them, people run them, and people are personally and morally (If not legally or financially) reponsible for the behavior of the whole.

      Companies don't exist to make money - they don't actually "exist" at all. They are groups of people who have chosen to work together for a specific set of goals, under specific governemnt guidelines. Some unscrupulous people believe that a corporate charter is permission to play the "I didn't do it" game. And it sounds like thier brainwashing is working on some of us.

      Hopefully, citizens begin to remember this (we certainly USED to understand it) and we stop giving the executives of corporations excuses to stop acting like members of society.

    10. Re:Rock and a hard place by Queuetue · · Score: 2

      Perhaps you missed the line about "educated users".

      Maybe you misread a line and thought I was painting a consipracy.

      Or maybe you just have an unhappy home life.

      Regardless, I hope it all works out for you.

    11. Re:Rock and a hard place by Queuetue · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's face it, if Windows and Windows apps didn't have all those security holes, there wouldn't necessarily be a need for Linux.

      According to everything I've ever read, and my own personal experience, Windows' security holes have absolutely nothing to do with the creation or popularity of Linux.

      I don't use Linux to avoid using Windows. I use it because it's the best thing available.

  4. What? by clinko · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yeah, your right. Microsoft should have written every line perfectly like every line of code you ever have written.

    1. Re:What? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2
      Yeah, your right. Microsoft should have written every line perfectly like every line of code you ever have written.

      In exchange for the countless billions of dollars that Microsoft has collected from the world's computer users, I would expect them to adhere to the highest possible quality standards when writing their code. In real time, not after the fact.

      Nothing is perfect, but much of their past software has been obviously and deeply flawed. People have been pointing this out for many years, and only now do they deign to address the issue. This is why they deserve most of the harsh criticism they receive.

    2. Re:What? by Dog+and+Pony · · Score: 2

      Since all your collected code so far amounts to

      10 PRINT "TOM IS STUPID"
      20 GOTO 10

      and it took you three hours of debugging before "release", noone is much surprised. ;-)

    3. Re:What? by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2
      news flash - the coders didn't recieve all that money.

      That's part of the problem. More of the money should have been spent on engineering, and less should have ended up in Microsoft's multibillion dollar hoard of cash.

      Interoperatability bugs happen, there are plenty of coders working together. They're always crushing bugs and developing, but they're only human.

      Instead of just crushing bugs and developing, they should have invested in a little bit of design work. That way, they wouldn't need to be superhuman.

    4. Re:What? by jonnythan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Do you think they would have made those billions if they slowed down the development cycle so much as to eliminate most of the bugs in their operating systems?

      If they slowed it down to a large degree *now* in order to do this, don't you think Linux and other OSs have a legitimate shot at taking over?

      MS will do whatever MS decides will let it maintain its position in the marketplace, and God bless them for it.

    5. Re:What? by Erik+Hollensbe · · Score: 2

      This comment makes my stomach turn.

      A quick translation:

      "Throw whatever engineering ethics you might have to get the product out the door".

      You know, in other forms of engineering they're FEDERALLY RESPONSIBLE for the mistakes they cause. The engineers themselves, and and the companies they work for. When was the last time you saw a bridge 'crash' because of a flaw in design? It certainly doesn't happen as often as it does with software.

      Now, OTOH, we have software that controls air traffic and naval vessels. Microsoft has been trying to get into these kinds of markets for a long time now, because the cash potential is quite high.

      Do *you* want an Air Traffic Control system that is powered by a company which uses the design methodology that you described above?

    6. Re:What? by karlm · · Score: 2
      The're mostly complaining about poor design and interfaces, not poor implementation. Bad code can be fixed and doesn't break anything on top of it. (Unless the othercode relied on bugs.)

      The entire MicrofSoft security team should be shot for using the LM hash. They should be shot again for not having a salt in the NT hash while they were at it fixing the probles with the LM hash. NT dates can't represent anything in prehistory (which can be useful sometimes). Why the hell are Windows CE passwords stored by xoring with "SUSAGEP" instead of some real security measure or just plaintext?

      I've never done any MFC coding, so I don't know about any of thier other design decissions, but I can imagine that a lot of thier other stuff is equally flawed. These are exposed design flaws, not coding flaws. We all make coding mistakes, MS made some HUGE security mistakes that they should have known were mistakes at the time. Crypt passwords have been around since the 70s. For most users' passwords, even the improved NT hash is less secure than crypt. (ASCII passwrds shorter than 9 characters). md5 paswords on *NIX aresuperior in all cases to NT hash passwords. I'm sure there are plenty of other areas where thier design mistakes can only be accounted for by complete ignorance of previous research AND an extreme lack of thinking things through. (Either that or they intnetionally made thiersystems weak, which I don't believe.)

      Thier encrypted filesystem is a complete waste as long as both the LM and NT hashes are stored on the filesystm. As long as the user has an all-ASCII password, the filesystem encryption gets weakened to about 37-bit encryption (even with 14-character psswords) due to the password file being so crackable.

      --
      Copyright Violation:"theft, piracy"::Anti-Trust Violation:"thermonuclear price terrorism"<-Overly dramatic language.
  5. Microsoft Vs. Linux by coryboehne · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Well it looks like they might actually finally have the right idea as to how to compete with Linux,,, although they might have a few details a little skewed from what I would consider ideal, they seem to be heading in the right direction. Good to see that Microsoft might actually be listening to their customers finally.

    Disclamer: Yes, I do love Linux, no I do not hate Microsoft, as a matter of a fact I am a .Net developer so this is of a much greater importance to me than it is to most.

  6. Say that again... by cOdEgUru · · Score: 3, Insightful

    they really should have done so when they designed Windows

    Bugs (*aheam* features) and Security flaws are not intended to be part of the package. They happen because of bad design and bad coding practices and bad decisions. And no matter how hard you try (and try as you may even in the case of Linux) its impossible to do so during the design or coding time.

    I would applaud this effort to force it down the throats of customers (atleast it would reduce the number of vulnerable servers sitting out in the open), but it goes only as far as any user would want to.

  7. Not Correct by CharlieO · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I read the same story at The Register

    The editiorial is innacurate and opinionated.

    They are actually giving up on trying to secure older products.

    And they are stating that for new security fixes on current products they are now putting security as a higher priority than not breaking the apps.

    So rather than provide the security turned off, in the hope that some MCSE will turn it one once the app has been patched, the security is on even if the app breaks.

    Now, regardless of the anti M$ feelings, this has got to be a good approach.

    Yes you can read it as "Hear comes DRM, suck it down" or you can read it as "Secure by default really does matter, becasue we know 95% of users never change from the default settings" - the latter approach is taken by Suse in 8.1 and I don't see /. attacking them

    1. Re:Not Correct by sirinek · · Score: 2

      And you are surprised? The Register is notorious for being inaccurate and opinionated. They write stories that are 1/3 each facts, opinion, and rumor. Its like reading The NYT, slashdot and fuckedcompany all in one!

      siri

    2. Re:Not Correct by RollingThunder · · Score: 2
      Its like reading The NYT, slashdot and fuckedcompany all in one!
      Ain't it great? God bless the Reg!
    3. Re:Not Correct by CharlieO · · Score: 2

      Sadly been reader of both for years - mark of the beast!

  8. Novell guilty of the same by totallygeek · · Score: 3, Interesting
    Not that I am siding with Microsoft, but to play the devil's advocate, other companies are guilty of the same disregard for what third-party software will break due to OS patches. To date, I have not installed a Novell Netware service pack without jacking-up some other software (ADS, Arcserve, NAV, etc).

    There is a bigger problem out there -- laziness. Microsoft and others have made security patches available that admins simply do not install. If they did, the world would be a better place. I mean, I still get tons of Code Red hits on my web server. Patches have been available for that for....how long?!?!?!

  9. Silly aside by aborchers · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows
    This is a really silly aside. If we waited for software to be perfect before designing/releasing it, we would never have any software. Design flaws are part of the process. How they are fixed with minimal technical and insult to the users is what is important. IMO, the real reason to slag MS is for changing the license terms in exchange for a security patch!
    --
    Trouble making decisions? Just flip for it.
    1. Re:Silly aside by xtheunknown · · Score: 2

      This reply is right on point.

      I am working on a software project right now and it's not done because I keep on trying to improve it, to make it perfect. It will never be perfect and if I don't want to lose my job, I should finish it, test it, and release it to the users. There will always be bugs, and they can be fixed later.

      This is exactly what MS does. They pick a point in development and release the software. Then they fix the bugs later.

      I'll bet Linus wouldn't disagree with me on this one. He might question whether MS rushes products into release, but not that you eventually reach a point of diminishing return in software development.

      This clearly a case of damned if you do, damned if you don't.

      --

      They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  10. for christsake by avandesande · · Score: 4, Insightful

    but they really should have done so when they designed Windows

    What os didn't need security fixes after it was released?

    --
    love is just extroverted narcissism
    1. Re:for christsake by adb · · Score: 2

      That's not the issue---it's just fine that they're releasing security fixes. The issue is that the OS is so borken that security fixes can't be made without breaking applications.

    2. Re:for christsake by avandesande · · Score: 2

      Because the moderators are worse kharma whores than i am.

      --
      love is just extroverted narcissism
  11. There going with the times... by muffen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    but they really should have done so when they designed Windows.

    I think you have to remember that Microsoft used to put functionality before security. There is a tradeoff between functionality and security. For example, do you allow mailing functionality within the VBS language and the macro language? There is a reason why there are over 20 worms that can spread using MSN messenger, and none that can spread using Yahoo messenger.

    However, times change, and people change. Now people put security before functionality. Microsoft is just going with the times...

  12. Security has to be part of the foundation by gaff1 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I think it's a noble effort on Microsoft's part, but if you've ever developed large applications you know that security cannot be an after thought. It's been my experience that unless you design security in from the very begining, it's almost impossible to make it truely secure. Security has to be part of the foundation not a layer higher level layer.

  13. Terrorism. Of course. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 3, Funny
    Craig Mundie, who oversees the company's Trustworthy Computing initiative, told an audience Wednesday that in response to the threat of terrorist cyberattacks, Microsoft would deploy security fixes to its installed base of hundreds of millions of computers worldwide in the coming year -- even if those fixes break applications in use by customers.
    Funny, I don't see Sun or IBM or Oracle or the Apache people -- who between them are responsible for a hell of a lot more of the nation's critical computer infrastructure than Microsoft -- going all nuts over security since Sept. 11th. Why, those unpatriotic scum! They must be terrorists themselves! Report them to John Ashcroft immediately! And remember to buy only Microsoft(r) products ... or the terrorists will have won(tm).

    Let's roll.(tm)(r)(c)
    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  14. Oh, I can see the dialogue now by SonicBurst · · Score: 2, Funny

    Microsoft: We'll break your apps!

    App developers: And just exactly how is this different from Windows as it stands now?

    --

    Geek used to be a four letter word. Now it's a six-figure one.
  15. God dammit! by bmetz · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am so sick of this revisionist, 20/20 hindsight, why-isn't-microsoft-perfect bullshit! Do you know how many applications written by blithering idiots they've had to keep working? I've heard tons of horror stories directly from friends at MS about the hoops they go through to keep COMPETING SOFTWARE from breaking. Yes, MS employees really do sit around figuring out how to keep Wordperfect from crashing.

    --
    What did you eat today? http://www.atetoday.com/
    1. Re:God dammit! by coryboehne · · Score: 3, Interesting

      LOL, you really have a fine point there, it's obvious that some software may have a few issues that will cause it to work in unexpected ways/not work at all. This is not something that cannot be fixed by whomever owns/writes said software. If Microsoft is putting forth this kind of effort to ensure security through some other method than obscurity then I say GREAT! And of course Microsoft wants to keep competing software vendors products working, after all, the main reason windows has captured the market share that it has is mainly due to their large base of 3rd party software and business apps (competing or not) If they were to alienate this valueable resource they would be crazy, as it is largely due to this base that they are so successful. And yes, when you're dealing with a product that is millions of lines of code long there are always going to be problems when trying to do anything... My current project that I'm working on is only about 50,000 lines of code (one developer, namely me) and I can tell you that once in a while when I go to change something that seems fairly menial I can cause myself more headaches that you can imagine (although this doesn't happen often, it does happen). So thank Microsoft for at least showing that they DO care, thank you. :)

    2. Re:God dammit! by AndroidCat · · Score: 2
      Bob is survived by his illegitimate son Clippy (Who's still not dead) and the rest of the Microsoft Agents.

      Very cute technology that lacks any sane or rational use.

      --
      One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    3. Re:God dammit! by tswinzig · · Score: 2

      Yes, MS employees really do sit around figuring out how to keep Wordperfect from crashing.

      Are these the same employees that worked on DR-DOS compatability?

      --

      "And like that ... he's gone."
    4. Re:God dammit! by n0ano · · Score: 2
      Yes, MS employees really do sit around figuring out how to keep Wordperfect from crashing.


      Actually, I would be willing to bet large sums of money that MS employees spend no time figuring out how to keep WordPerfect from crashing. What they do is sit around and try to figure out how to make an API, that they designed and created, work in their new OS.


      If you design an API make damn sure you do it right because you are going to have to live with it for a long time.

      --
      Don Dugger
      "Censeo Toto nos in Kansa esse decisse." - D. Gale
    5. Re:God dammit! by lfourrier · · Score: 2

      for sure, they don't pass a long time checking that w95 educationnal cdrom still work with XP

  16. Re:Microsoft and Linus by rovingeyes · · Score: 5, Insightful
    the only way to avoid massive layers of backwards-compatible cruft is to just slough off the existing infrastructure and create the OS anew for every release.

    My take on this "impractical". A new version of OS comes out in every couple of years, and in near future I can expect it to be every year. Now that means shelling out money on new, improved version of apps and systems. Let me tell you there are people still using win95 and very happy with it coz it still works. Tell them to upgrade every year and shell out $500 a year on system. They'll just smile at you and say -"boy are you out of your mind, no way"

  17. What about ... by dzym · · Score: 2
    What about their recent anti-piracy efforts?

    Windows XP sp1 locked out WinXP installations using stolen keys from using WindowsUpdate or applying patches.

    Will this new initiative reverse that practice?

    Remember, it won't matter to most people if a Windows installation was pirated or not when it's the one being used as a DDoS zombie, spewing out viruses over SMTP, or something similar ... just that it is Windows.

    (Btw: Plz 2 mod as +1 Insightful)

  18. Re:Microsoft and Linus by Flabby+Boohoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yes, and of course he is talking about free software. So if something breaks, just download the new version.

    But if the apps are purchased, that is a bit much to swallow. Of course, if MS has service packs that fix the broken apps, then I guess it would not be so bad.

  19. Implications for software interoperation by blackcat++ · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There is another side-effect: Just think of an update that does not only fix two recent security flaws, but also implements incompatible changes to the CIFS/SMB protocol. All users of MS Software are forced to upgrade, so there won't be any interoperability issues. But all those Samba File/Print/PDC installations across the world are suddenly broken.

    And Samba is just a randomly picked example.

  20. the fact of the matter is by p00kiethebear · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That windows just doesnt seem like it was designed to take on improvements. It seems like every new "security" update only brings more problems. What they should be doing is sending out more release clients to testers before they release the next completed version of software to the public. Before they make their next release they need to DEBUG DEBUG DEBUG and grab a much wider variety of people willing to test their stuff. If their aim is really to "protect" the end user, then this is what they should have been doing all along.

    --
    The Blade Itself
    1. Re:the fact of the matter is by redfiche · · Score: 2, Interesting
      [troll]

      windows just doesnt seem like it was designed to take on improvements

      How many software projects as large and mature as the Windows code base can you name that are not terribly brittle? It's hard to create code that is extensible and maintainable.

      When Win2K was being developed, peoples concerns were crashes and reboots, so they focused on that. Now concerns are centered around security. I'm no lover of M$, but it seems to me they are listening to their customers.

      [/troll]

      --

      Brevity is the soul of wit

      -- Polonius

  21. Removal of a Linux adoption barrier by RichMan · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the main arguments buisnesses have been using against looking for Linux solutions is that legacy applications (of the windowsNT/95 variety) must be runnable. Now with Microsoft saying that they may not support all legacy code this is removing one of the last barriers stopping some companies from looking at Linux.
    If a company is looking at redoing an application for the windows base it may just be easier for them to make it work with WINE than with the new windows code base.
    I am sure Microsoft is aware of this. There must be some really big holes they are going to close with action or they would not consider dropping the support for legacy applications.

  22. Look, I don't want to state the obvious, here, but by Multiple+Sanchez · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows.

    Next you'll be criticizing the quality of the beef at McDonald's.

    Most Americans want to surf the web, download MP3s, and spend $2500 to watch the Matrix DVD on a two hour flight, and they'll pay the same amount for Windows whether Microsoft makes it secure, or not.

    Bill Gates is a smart business man. Microsoft is a successful business. As such, the $ is the bottom line. Analzying their products from any other perspective is a waste of time.

  23. Enough! by Psarchasm · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft is doing the right thing.

    Every vendor Microsoft, Apple, Sun, Red Hat, Debian can create an incident where a patch breaks a vendors application.

    I've personally seen it happen with 4 out of the 5 vendors already. Deal with it. AFAIK there is still no forced patching. Your OS doesn't just up and DIE if you decide not to patch your OS because you are aware that patching will create problems for you.

    On another note - Certainly Slashdot leans a little left politically and leans a lot toward "open solution" computing but everything about this story just reaks. "windows-ain't-done-while-competing-apps-still-run dept." -- GIVE ME A BREAK. If that were the goal, Microsoft would quickly be driving itself out of business. "... but they really should have done so when they designed Windows" -- again, who are you trying to fool here?? The same argument could be said for every operating system in mass production use today.

    Give it a rest. Your just starting to look foolish now.

    --
    http://windows.scares.us
    1. Re:Enough! by Psarchasm · · Score: 2

      Actually where they leave the user is in a position to change platforms. If you can't see that and take advantage of it when it happens then you, sir, are neither a deep thinker nor much of a visionary.

      "Does my investment in Micrsoft cost me more than it would cost me to switch Operating Systems and deploy, in some cases the same applications - and in some cases new ones that do the same thing?"

      If the answer is no - you stay. If the answer is yes - you move. Not a lot of deep thought required.

      But, you do show significant promise as a troll.

      --
      http://windows.scares.us
  24. Pulitzer by timothy_m_smith · · Score: 5, Funny
    I'm wondering if the Pulitzer Prize committee is reading Slashdot because this post should be highly considered. Look at the following quotes:

    ...Microsoft is trying to act responsible and all by fixing...
    ...they also plan to force security updates for older versions of Windows down peoples throats...


    Hopefully we can look forward to more posts containing phrases like "I reckon" and "Y'all" to appear on Slashdot soon. Not to mention that there isn't even anything new in this post at all that has been discussed ad nauseum on Slashdot already.
    1. Re:Pulitzer by Kintanon · · Score: 2

      Then I reckon y'all better jest get used t' it.

      Kintanon

      --
      Check out JoshJitsu.info for Brazilian Ji
  25. What Mundie said, online by EnlightenmentFan · · Score: 5, Informative
    I'm surprised Wired doesn't link to the online MS press release. In it, Craig Mundie, Senior Vice President (Advanced Strategies and Policy), flags two planned changes that will affect Microsoft TCO.

    First of all, one of the big selling points of Wintel is that you have a wide choice of software. In the future, however, Mundie says that you can expect your old apps to be broken.

    "We have decided that we will begrudgingly forsake certain app compatibility things when, in fact, they don't allow us to have a default configuration that opts for more security. In the past, the biggest thing that happened to us was IT managers would come to the company and say, hey, all those new features, they're great, all that new security stuff, that's great, but whatever you do don't break my app. So just turn it all off and trust me, we'll fix the apps and then we'll turn it all on. And the reality is that never happened.

    And so we're going to tell people that even if it means we're going to break some of your apps we're going to make these things more secure and you're just going to have to go back and pay the price."

    Notice that they're breaking your old apps not so they can sell you new ones, but purely in the interest of your security, and furthermore it's your fault they have to do this.

    The other point Mundie makes is that, even after they sell you the new OS and the new apps, any security needed will be your responsibility, at your expense.

    "And the other thing is that the customers, whether they're individuals or corporations, are going to have to make a decision about when and how much they spend to get these machines to be more secure. And to some extent you can do it by insulating them, to some extent you can do it by putting things around them or in front of them that protect them, you know, firewalls in some sense. And then in some cases, you can just replace them when you get new machines or new software or both that have intrinsically better capabilities."

    Thanks, Microsoft, I'm glad you're looking out for my interests.

    --
    Making trouble today for a better tomorrow...
  26. Re:They just can't win can they by Queuetue · · Score: 2

    Why do people running older versions of windows need to upgrade, other than planned (or just enforced) obsolesence?

    I've got a box still running a 2.0 linux kernel, and two running 2.2 - and my vendors still support me. When they stop, I can support myself, because I have all of the tools necessary.

    Why doesn't MS support it's customers? Even if that means they have to fix the damned problems with Windows 3.1.

    They're sitting on 40 billion in cash. They can afford and should support the customers who stupidly gave them that money.

  27. They started three years ago? by epukinsk · · Score: 4, Funny

    "We didn't just fall off the turnip truck a year ago and realize we needed to do this, We started thinking about this three years ago."

    Microsoft didn't start thinking about security until Windows 2000 was a release candidate?

    Software Engineer: Uh, Craiggers... I just heard some disturbing news.
    Craig Mundie: Don't bother me now, I almost beat Bill's fastest time on Minesweeper.
    SE: Well, it's just that Joe apparently didn't design any security infrastructure into Windows.
    CM: Security what?
    SE: Well, remember when I was telling you about how "hackers" can very easily get information on your computer?
    CM: What, like that Stellman fellow and his hippie freedom shit?
    SE: Not really.
    CM: Well, if you think it's important, I'll have Bill send a memo out about it.

    "Trustworthy Computing, a sweeping overhaul of Microsoft's software, business models and programming practices, was publicized in January [of this year] by a company-wide memo from Microsoft chairman Bill Gates."

  28. Re:Microsoft and Linus by EggplantMan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In that way, I would say Bill and Linus are very alike. In his quest to bring his users what they want Bill often breaks backwards compatability during the upgrade cycle (win 2k). However I have to say that Bill is very professional about these compatability breaks only making them every major release, whereas sometimes Linus' behavior makes me wonder. Doesn't anyone remember the disaster called the 2.4.x series?

    --

    ?-|||-----x<*))))><
  29. NNYYYYEEEAAARGHHHH! by nanojath · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "Microsoft's security honcho has a message for Windows users: Let's roll."


    AAAARRRRRGGGGHHH! You know, people went DOWN in that freaking airplane, went down and smashed into the ground and died and burned up. And I am SICK TO DEATH of now hearing the phrase used to hawk and shuck and promote every kind of consumeristic bullshit and political jingo. Can we pass a consititutional provision to the First Amendment that you aren't allowed to use the phrase "Let's Roll" in public unless you're actually about to confront terrorists on a hijacked plane?

    --

    It Is the Nature of Information to Transgress Artificial Boundaries

    1. Re:NNYYYYEEEAAARGHHHH! by HeghmoH · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, the phrase "Let's roll" was certainly never used for anything, ever, before September of last year.

      --
      Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!
  30. Re:Microsoft and Linus by rovingeyes · · Score: 2
    RTFC, moron he made no reference to the time between releases.

    Well I guess it is implied, don't you think?

  31. Aye by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2

    ``Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows.''
    I agree. They really should have designed Windows better. Or maybe they shouldn't have designed it at all, but just followed POSIX. _That_ would have made programming so much easier (especially cross-platform, but also just for Windows - win32 API is cruft)! Plus they would have gotten all the good security they are now still trying to get with Windows NT and XP. And it's not like they don't know that stealing well is better than inventing badly.

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
  32. PPRR by Docrates · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hope everyone realizes that they're doing this for PR purposes. Right now there are lots of government that are trying to get away from MS products so that they don't put all their information in the hands of an American Company. Also, this is one of the main selling points of OSS vs. MS. As soon as they feel people aren't paying that much attention to security, they'll back away from "cumbersome nuances" like security

    I'll buy it that they really care about this stuff when they start building software over previous security-related experience, and I'm not talking patches here, I'm talking OS re-writes based on what works and doesn't security wise.

    --

    There are two kinds of people in the world: Those with good memory.
  33. ONce Again by Quill_28 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    >but they really should have done so when they designed Windows.

    No they shouldn't have. Can you imagine the problems with Windows 95, if they would have put tight security on it.
    Inexperienced computers users would have throw their hands up in frustration(why can't i install this program!, why won't the printer install! I forgot my password) why do i have to add a new user).
    Most people just want to get e-mail, surf the web, run quicken. As users starting demanding more(functionality, security, stability) they will switch to a different OS, or MS will have to improve. Which it seems they are trying.

    Windows has plenty of room for improvement, but statement seems a bit of a reach.

    1. Re:ONce Again by Quill_28 · · Score: 2

      hehe, point taken, but imagine how _much_ worse they would be.

  34. Re:Microsoft and Linus by gmack · · Score: 5, Informative

    He *never* says "screw the userland apps". Modules yes.. system utils yes.. general apps NO.

    In fact, you can still run your old a.out apps from 5 years ago provided you have the right libraries installed.

  35. GRR!!! by MoceanWorker · · Score: 2

    Hey! Look on the bright side, it gives us sys admins/IT/IS/techie guys job security!! :-D

    Boss: I hate to say this to you, but due to the recent economical slump.. I'm gonna have to let you go..

    Worker: Boss! Boss! Something happened to all the computers! The database client isn't opening up!

    Sys Admin being laid off: You were saying.. ;-)

    --


    "The ones who dont do anything are always the ones who try to pull you down" -- Henry Rollins
  36. wonder if this has anything to do with that CA law by The+Evil+Couch · · Score: 3, Interesting

    that got slashdotted yesterday

    With that new law, companies would have to report hacks of systems. If MS fixes as many holes as they can before this new law can get swung around, the public won't find out how vunerable they are by using their OS.

  37. Re:What Mundie said, online & apple by MacAndrew · · Score: 2

    What are you, nuts? Referring to actual sources of information in your comments??? :)

    I think his use of begrudgingly is mildly amusing. The word suggests envy or ill-will towards another person, in its common usage.

    By contrast, I was impressed by Apple's maintenance of backwards compatibility for the longest periods. My 15 y.o. dumb little CS apps still run fine without any sense of "emulation" going on, and as they went from 16-bit to 32-bit and other advances,, for the most part the only apps that broke were the ones that flouted the programming rule set out in Apple's detailed manuals re API and such. Now they seem to be honoring this a little less (OS X obviously is a big step), but I thought that was cool. Maybe the little fish just has to be more polite.

  38. How about 1% ? by trveler · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I thought the most interesting quote from the article was near the end:

    "... slides also showed the surprising results of automated crash reports from Windows users. A mere 1 percent of Windows bugs account for half of the crashes reported from the field."

    --
    ... is whot bwings os tugevza tsuzay.
  39. Re:Microsoft and Linus by walt-sjc · · Score: 2

    Um, 2.4 works VERY well. Every major distro uses it. Are you thinking of the initial release back in 2.4.0? and .1? It's the same in MS land which is why no IT guy in their right mind migrates to a new version of windows until there are at least 2 service packs out. When a major new version of the Linux kernel is released, anyone in their right mind waits a few months as settles down.

    Frankly, this is the way pretty much ANY major software product is. Deal with it dude.

  40. Re:Microsoft and Linus by Ryan+Amos · · Score: 2

    Bill (as in Bill Gates) actually has very little to do with Microsoft these days. He gave up control of the company to Ballmer years ago. Sure, he's still chairman of the board, but I really doubt the board has much say in technical matters. Linus on the other hand, has an active role in OS development and even codes stuff. I doubt Gates has touched a compiler in ten years. Contrary to popular belief, Gates didn't make his money because he was a super-smart computer geek. He made his money because he was a super-smart businessman. He then hired super-smart computer geeks to do all the work for him, and made them all very rich as well.

  41. Wonderful! by Arjuna01 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This is the same mentality where I work. We have users still using Lotus 2.4, WordPerfect 5.1, and other crazy applications because the IS people refuse to **MAKE** the users do their own work. The users want the IS departments to migrate and test all the spreadsheets and documents for them because we have Office '97 or Office 2000 installed on the machines. Now 10 years ago when Lotus 2.4 and WordPerfect were introduced we didn't go around making macros and cell calculations for them did we? But we try to introduce new products to keep up with the times and they act stupid on us and say we are killing business because we **WON'T** migrate their stupid macros.

    We can't even get the users to try and open the spreadsheets in Excel or Word. They just refuse to do it. My recommendation in the last meeting was to just turn off Lotus 2.4 and WordPerfect (apps run on server) and tell the user either to use Microsoft Excel and Word or find a new job.

    My point being, Microsoft is doing exactly what should be done. You want everything to be stable and secure, well you better be ready to upgrade or patch whatever doesn't work after we do our fixes.

    --
    "Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps." ~ Emo Phillips
    1. Re:Wonderful! by Ektanoor · · Score: 2

      And you think that if this move from M$ would help you? Apart of the good or bad intentions from Redmond, I'm pretty sure that your users will force you to keep not one, but several copies of Windows, some more older or crappy than others. Users are a terrible thing to deal with. For you Lotus 2.4 and WordPerfect 5.1 are dinosaurs that give you headaches and leave you with the feeling you live in a swamp. For the users they are work tools and they may go pretty happy with them. They are not IT experts and in the bottom of their souls they are working just with what they well know.

      To change their minds, you have to get someone to change those macros and cell calculations. As it is you who propose the change, you should give the ground for it. No one will be kind to change if you cannot afford a slow but reliable move into a new system. This can be painful as it may take a year or two to do it. But if you build up a small revolution on changing the OS, then most users will try to smoke you out of the company. And they may have a reason as, in reality, you may kill the businees on making such rough changes.

      Note that there is a difference between doing a bad business but still making some profit, and making revolutions where everything looks shiny, but no one can work with the new system. You may put XP everywhere, but if management sees money flying out the window, they will have some good questions about your technocratic progressism.

      As a final note I can note you that I'm in a similar position. I'm in the 7th month on trying to change a company where people used old NT and FoxPro into a Linux/SQL world. The job is not nice at all. While it was easy to scrap all NTs outta there, it is tremendously difficult to convince people stop using their old FoxPro programs. The interfaces are clumsy, data gets trashed from time to time, the system does not allow wide-scale WAN use, but they are used to it and, no matter the problems, they do their job with it. To force them into a new world, I'll need a few months more to create new fullscale apps, capable of doing most things these people do now with Fox. And every step is a baggage of problems. It was a Hell to have these people using mail to exchange documents, instead of printing them and cloggering desks with paper. The biggest problem is to avoid them to get the feeling that we are playing revolutions on them.

    2. Re:Wonderful! by dcollins · · Score: 2

      The other respondents, frankly, have it right. Not to be belligerent, but your attitude represents everything that would give me a splitting headache when I worked in industry. (I teach now instead.)

      It's not the office workers' job to manage data-migration, nor should it be... nor is it their job to test phone lines, set up cube walls, replace the lighting fixtures, or perform OSHA inspections on their workplace.

      You're all pissy because management won't accede to turning off all the used office applications from the server? Maybe you should bring in a dog and kick it in the middle of your presentation, that'll make your point even better.

      --
      We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
    3. Re:Wonderful! by Havokmon · · Score: 2
      My point being, Microsoft is doing exactly what should be done. You want everything to be stable and secure, well you better be ready to upgrade or patch whatever doesn't work after we do our fixes.

      That's true, but it's for the FUTURE. It does NOT affect YOUR situation as you've described it.

      We can't even get the users to try and open the spreadsheets in Excel or Word. They just refuse to do it. My recommendation in the last meeting was to just turn off Lotus 2.4 and WordPerfect (apps run on server) and tell the user either to use Microsoft Excel and Word or find a new job.

      It sounds like you haven't given them any reason to switch. If all their documents are in WP 5.1, and they don't need to read anyone elses documents, what's the reason to switch?

      Your job is to make the users' lives easier. If you can't do that, then they won't switch.

      Are you running Windows? Why? Do you have Win32 apps that you need to run? If you're still on 9x, or Win2k and running DOS apps, I think THAT'S your problem.

      What you THINK you're Requirement is: Run the lastest and greatest apps because Microsoft is dominant and constantly upgrading.

      Your REAL Requirement: You need to provide stable multi-tasking to users who run DOS apps.

      Resolution: Hell, if I were you, I'd be running OS/2 Warp. (But then again, I don't outsource ANYTHING. So if you can't handle the support without consultants, get something 'well-used'.)

      --
      "I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
    4. Re:Wonderful! by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2

      You mean they run businesses off of a spread sheet? Wow. I don't know how you can do that unless you have a SMALL business. Point is, if your still using a spreadsheet (no matter whether it wax Lotus, Excel or whatever) to run a business, you are hurting. Everything that's critical should be stored in a nice secure location and your users desktops and home directories aren't the most secure place for that stuff. If it's critical to the business, it should be in a database that can be relatively secure. Only thing that spreadsheets and word processing should be used for is those one off letters and maybe prettifying your data in a nice graph. Everything else should be automated to a point. If you always send a letter when a customer buys x product, why isn't there something in your system to kick that off when a customers buys said product? My wife used to have a job where she had 3-4 letters she'd spend all day putting different addresses on BY HAND and sending out. I asked her why she didn't do a mail merge and she said I don't now how. Here eyes glazed over as I tried to tell her. I also asked her why her company did not figure out a way to have the main computer do it all. Again eye glaze. Some companies refuse to treat computers (even the databases they use via a client) like computers. They still treat it like a paper record. Rather then type the message once then do up a Access database or Excel sheet and then do a mail merge, they just sit and type type type...print print print. Or, my favorite one, they spend all day making a beautiful Word document that would look great when printed, but then they attach it in a e-mail. GRR! Why can't they just send it in the TEXT of the e-mail! That's what it's for! Attachments just makes it nice to send you something that might need signed then snail mailed back. They are great for other reasons, but your main communication should be in the text of the e-mail and not a bloody word attachment! GRR! I'll get off my soapbox now.

      --

      Gorkman

    5. Re:Wonderful! by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2

      BS! Spreadsheets are not the type of data that IS should worry about. These are USER documents. We will back them up, but after that your on your own. Mean time we'll go back to converting data for migrating our data in Oracle to the new application you asked us to implement but now don't give a shit about.

      --

      Gorkman

    6. Re:Wonderful! by wytcld · · Score: 2
      Just curious, what security flaws do Lotus 2.4 or WordPerfect 5.1 bring into your operation? Sure, you'd like to support less stuff. But in places I've worked the Lotus and WP users support each other - nobody expects IT to be more expert at Lotus macros than the accountants, and nobody expects IT to know half as much about using WP well as a good executive assistant.

      Are WP or Lotus files as attachments now doing the serious viral stuff that Word and Excel files are famous for? For security's sake, an "anything but Word or Excel" policy could serve you very well. Of course, it's a bit harder to find new staff that knows the older programs well - but the staff you will find generally knows them better than the typical new hire trained on Messysoft stuff knows how to use that. And Word in particular is designed for unskilled labor, not expert users.

      --
      "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
    7. Re:Wonderful! by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2

      Um...I think by now, we should not be using software that is that old for reasons other then the users reasons. How about support. How about you never use a desktop app for a mission critical thing! I AM paying attention. Users DO need to learn new stuff and NOT because we tell them too....because every other company generally does too and unless that employee wants to be stuck for 20 years in a dos app, then they have to learn the new stuff. If they ever want to be employable in another place, then they need to learn the new stuff. Where I work, for us, you generally do have users clamoring for new software. Because they too get brainwashed that they need it. We only give the users what they want. We only finally got fully to microsoft office when the wordperfect folks all retired. I remembe a time where we supported Wordperfect, Lotus Notes, Foxpro, Excel, Quattro Pro and Powerpoint. Teh point is that the company sets the standard, not the employee. If they don't like it they can always get another job. I don't usually here people whining too much about ripping out the old software anyway. Only thing I do hear about is when they finally notice a change you made to a program 6 months to a year ago and want it changed back even though they said that is what they wanted.

      --

      Gorkman

    8. Re:Wonderful! by Chanc_Gorkon · · Score: 2

      Migrating doesn't always come at the expense of the it guys. Sometimes, the users ask for it. Happening now where I work (we generally don't make a plan and do what the users want...they usualy do what the new stuff.). We are stuck implementing a system that we did not want. The end system in some ways doe alot less then our current system. IT isn't always the driving force behind upgrades. Most of the time it isw the users (or a significant number of them)

      --

      Gorkman

  42. Re:Terrorism. Of course. by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2
    who between them are responsible for a hell of a lot more of the nation's critical computer infrastructure than Microsoft

    I feel obligated to remind you that Microsoft has a 95% share of the market.
    Not of the critical stuff, they don't. (Actually, I believe their desktop share is down to 90% or so, with Apple and various open-source *x's -- mostly Linux -- each having about 5%. But that's neither here nor there.) The servers that run the really critical stuff are predominantly IBM and Sun (and to some degree HPaq) iron running various *x flavors, databases like Oracle and DB2, and, for those that share their content with the outside world, doing so via Apache.
    --
    The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
  43. "We'll break your apps" by psyconaut · · Score: 2

    Broken Windows apps? *shock* *horror*

    How is this possibly considered news? ;-)

    -psy

  44. Re:Microsoft and Linus by oconnorcjo · · Score: 5, Informative
    I guess the submitter has never read anything by Linus on the Linux mailing list. He is constantly making changes to the kernel and saying "screw stupid userland apps, this is the right way to do things". Even about non-security issues

    Actually I HAVE read Linus's post on LKML and that is far from true. In most cases he is willing to break the internals of the kernel but he loaths to break something in userland (but will do it if there is a really really good reason). That is why most programs written for 2.0 still work for 2.4.

    --
    I miss the Karma Whores.
  45. Re:Microsoft and Linus by afidel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually MS just dumped the next server version after .NET, so it looks like they are headed towards longer release cycles. Since Liscense 6 gives you support for the last 5 years of os's it would not behoov MS to come out with a new OS every year, that would mean supporting 5 OS's for corp customers and testing all their apps against 5 OS's, not cheap. Instead it looks like MS is going the opposite way, look at the next version of Office, it won't run on any OS's other than win2k with SP3+, or winXP. MS is trying to dump the old kruft to reduce problems and hence support costs both external and internal.

    --
    There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
  46. Re:Microsoft and Linus by Reckless+Visionary · · Score: 5, Interesting
    What are you talking about? Bill Gates is the Chief Software Architect. He gave up his job as chief executive for exactly that reason, to have an active role in OS development. Of course he's not the one compiling the releases, but to say he "actually has very little to do with Microsoft these days" is just flat incorrect. From link (prepare sarcastic tone):

    "I might be threatening to write code."

    --
    I think I'll stop here.
  47. I knew 20 years, and you sir, are no 20 years by AndroidCat · · Score: 2
    "As you do that over a period of 20-odd years, you end up with a lot of features that aren't used by many people," Mundie said. Left unmanaged, he explained, these chunks of code become breeding grounds for security holes.

    People are still using stuff that depends on pre-MSDOS 2.0 features? It's hard to imagine how such a machine would get on the network to be 0wn3d in the first place without some serious social engineering: "Take this program, copy it to a 320k 5.25" floppy..."

    Yeah, I know what he means, and he's right, but that 20 year figure was pulled out of his .. hat.

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
    1. Re:I knew 20 years, and you sir, are no 20 years by NeuroManson · · Score: 2

      Exactly. Microsoft didn't even conceive of a mainstream rush to the internet (which in turn opened up all these vulnerabilities to begin with) until around 1992 when Ballmer sent an e-mail regarding it.

      Now understand that this was 3 years before Windows 95 was released. Prior to this, most DOS apps and Win16 apps were largely compatible. A program written for DOS 4 or 5 could run just fine under Dos 6, so hypothetically code as old as 12 years could even have a chance at running.

      --
      Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
  48. Re:Microsoft and Linus by Asprin · · Score: 2


    I guess the submitter has never read anything by Linus on the Linux mailing list. He is constantlymaking changes to the kernel and saying "screw stupid userland apps, this is the right way to do things". Even about non-security issues. And he's right, the only way to avoid massive layers of backwards-compatible cruft is to just slough off the existing infrastructure and create the OS anew for every release.

    And as a bonus, developers are trained to properly code to the API instead of relying on MSDOS-style quickie kludge hacks. A moving target is harder to hit when you aren't using the "official" tools to line up the shot. (Not that anyone does that anymore, right? Remember the 80's?)

    --
    "Lawyers are for sucks."
    - Doug McKenzie
  49. Re:Microsoft and Linus by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    No, he's implying that the 2.4.x had some very major VM changes made to it when it was supposedly "stable". You knew full well what he was refering too.

  50. Re:Microsoft and Linus by xtheunknown · · Score: 2

    Actually, in addition to being Chairman, Bill is Chief Software Architect (or something like that) so he has everything to do with the technical aspects of MS software.

    --

    They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
  51. Couple of things.... by frozencesium · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This story is nothing but PR...

    The story never mentions *how* they plan to force users of older systems to patch and upgrade their security. As has been the topic of many a comment, the biggest problem in security is an admin/user who doesn't patch. If they haven't been able to get people to patch in the past, how do they think they can force a win95 user to patch their box now?

    The best they can hope to do as far as *forcing* upgrades is making the automatic "microsoft update" manditory and non-removable. Imagine the uproar...

    Second, a reality check...you will never squash all bugs. Software is a dynamic beast, especially when it comes to operating environments. As the systems grow and functionality increases, so do the chances for bugs. It's a simple fact that the more lines of code you have, the more bugs you have. Microsoft is as able to squash all bugs in all their software as any *nix system is to fix every single bug in theirs. It just isn't going to happen...no system is perfect.

    "Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows"

    I particularly liked that part...as the current incarnation of the internet did NOT exist when the first versions of DOS came out. Heck, most people didn't know what a dialup was when 3.1 came out. Early MS systems were never designed to be multi-tasking, let alone multi user, and therefore never needed security...it simply wasn't thought necisary. If the computer is going to be used by one person and not connected to the net (such was the case in the early 80's), then why include extra usless security code? The same design base was used and simply extended to maintain backward compatability as time progressed. Thus MS saying that their design is fundamentaly insecure...because it didn't HAVE to be secure in the early days. After all, it's easier to expand than re-write...especially if you do want to backward compatability.

    As I see it, the sins of the past are more about business practice (which is abhorent), than it is about software design. After all, they have migrated their new OS's to a fundamentaly NT based system, and have increased security and stability in the process. I'm not saying they don't have a ways to go, I'm just saying that it is better than it was.

    In anycase...I'm happy with debian, so I don't care what they do for my sake. I hope that something good comes of this so that my parents can get a more stable and more secure OS...

    -Frozen

    --
    I'm not always the brightest pixel in the stream
    1. Re:Couple of things.... by SuiteSisterMary · · Score: 2

      Two people modern 'UNIX' users tend to forget:

      1: There once was an OS designed, from the ground up, to be secure, stable, good, and non-fattenting. It was called MULTICS. Some people decided to strip out much of the security and robustness features of it. This begat UNIX; literally, a castrated version of MULTICS.

      2: All of the software that you know and love in the OSS world was just as bad as the MS stuff was, in it's day. The good old days of being able to telnet to sendmail, type 'wizard' or 'debug' and simply being presented with a root shell. Or SunOS and IRIX LPR daemons doing similar things.

      --
      Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
  52. He's a PR Nightmare by thatguywhoiam · · Score: 2
    Is it just me, or is Craig Mundie in dire need of something to fill his pie-hole? Everything that guy says must give Microsoft PR conniptions.

    "Windows isn't designed for security."
    "We'll provide security when customers start paying for it."
    "All your apps are belong to us."

    Of course, there's always the braying antics of the Em-Ballmer. Who told you to sit down?!?

    --
    If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
  53. Some people never get satisfied by Jugalator · · Score: 2

    Nice to see Microsoft taking reponsibility for their mistakes, but they really should have done so when they designed Windows

    Well, their focus on security wasn't the same when there wasn't even a WWW, so now they're doing their best to fix their mistakes.

    There's a lot you "should" do if you could predict the future. Windows worked fine and had few attacks in the 80's. Why should they spend time and effort on something that would become a problem in a decade later?

    I'm sure there's a lot many operating systems should do today that might become a problem in another 10 years.

    --
    Beware: In C++, your friends can see your privates!
  54. Editors on... no, wait! Submitters on crack... by Dog+and+Pony · · Score: 2

    I was not going to comment at all about the stupidness of the poster going on about Microsoft should have fixed this from the start and all that crap only a non-programmer could say. So many others already said it so well.

    Then I looked at the nick and emailaddress of the submitter: jointm1k and jointm1k@dajoint.nl, and suddenly it all became very clear to me just how you could, with a straight face, submit something like that.

  55. Not so. by dvt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Microsoft's reputation for intentionally breaking competing applications is based on well-documented incidents where Microsoft added code specifically for this purpose.

    Most recently (about two years ago) Microsoft added a "Security Update" for Outlook supposedly to protect users against viruses. It also broke a lot of applications that did things like synchronize with a PDA, at a time when Microsoft was focused on competing with Palm. The security update could easily have been designed to prevent this side effect.

    Based on its ruthless history, it is entirely reasonable to expect that Microsoft will once again use its control of Windows to sabotage competitors products. It is not Microsoft-bashing to judge a company based on its past behavior. Microsoft has only itself to blame for developers' suspicion and hostility. A company that plays nice 95% of the time and plays dirty tricks 5% of the time is still going to be mistrusted *all* of the time, and rightly so.

    1. Re:Not so. by LordSah · · Score: 2

      The Outlook object model is accessible by any executable on the system that cared to talk to it. Palm syncing used the OM, as does everything that interfaces with Outlook. Outlook doesn't know the difference between a virus executable and a good one--unfortunately, virus writers don't sign their executables "THIS IS A VIRUS".

      From another post:
      The security update DOES do that. When you install it, it does two big things: blocks all access to executable attachments, and requires permission before an external program can gain access to your Address Book or use Outlook to send email.
      Yep. Unless the user lets the virus do its dirty work, it's stopped.

      The devs and security PM's in Outlook decided that this was the most secure way to still allow OM functionality. It was not decided on by higher-ups for competition reasons.

  56. Months??? by siskbc · · Score: 2

    There are *months* before it goes mainstream -- more than enough time for userland apps to adapt.

    Maybe simple, small apps, but I'm sure there are companies that would NOT be able to port over large, custom software in "months." Even if they could, that would be damned expensive. I'd hate to have to choose between tanking my software or not getting the new kernel. Not an acceptable situation.

    --

    -Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

  57. Re:Microsoft and Linus by Queuetue · · Score: 2

    It's not a matter of smart or not smart. Its a matter of ignorance.

    MS has spent decades numbing and dumbing the user. Now, they see a "dos window" and they get all panicky. It takes me days to make them understand that often, typing is so much easier than all that gui crap...

  58. At least it appears they are trying by nurb432 · · Score: 2

    True, it will suck to have things break, but if this is an honest attempt at fixing the OS, then its a good thing.

    If its only a ploy to make low level changes in order to obsolete existing software and hardware, forcing upgrades and providing new pathways into the new EULA's/DRM world ( and revenue ), then its NOT a good thing.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:At least it appears they are trying by suman28 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's a ploy. Get with it man. This is M$ we are talking about. They have been found guilty of doing anti-trust violations. I think, a mass murderer might eventually find it in his conscience to change, but I feel like M$ will always be up to its old tricks. As long as they have the power, they will force you to update and sneak EULA changes that might someday mortgage your house.

  59. What's going on with the editors lately? by lay · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Okay,let's be serious for a moment, guys. There was this week when you had 10 stories from new planets being discovered that probably would lead everyone to "rethink what they know about the universe". Then you had the week of nonsense "ask slashdot" questions. Now we're getting to a point where Slashdot is ceasing to be "News for nerds" go turn into a MS bashing forum. I mean, from "News for nerds" to Linux advocacy to MS bashing, what is this turning into?

    Can't you guys be scientificaly honest? These are complex subjects and it's not a question of "wanting" to design a good OS, it's a question of complexity in designing a good OS. Or are you guys just trying to look cool to your friends with that 'anty-MS' stance? Take a look ate the usage logs on Slashdot visitors' OSes. Then come back to tell me that the vast majority is at work and is forced to use Windows. I'll just laugh

    I would gladly pay a disuation fee to discuss on slashdot. Wasn't there an ideia like that sometime?


    --
    Lay
    Weakly typed languages will bring us armageddon
    1. Re:What's going on with the editors lately? by jonnythan · · Score: 2

      I notice that you're fairly new here!

      The web site is what it is, a bunch of editors no better informed than most of the people who post comments posting stuff that gets page hits and replies.

      Don't like it, go troll the ZDnet talkback forums.. they DO have an obligation as journalists.

    2. Re:What's going on with the editors lately? by LordSah · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When I first started visiting Slashdot, the articles were much more geek-friendly and much less anti-Microsoft. In the 3-4ish years I've been reading Slashdot, it's definitely seemed that it's devolved into a MS bashing forum.

      One or two Microsoft stories are published everyday, no matter how insignificant the news is. Even if the news is a good thing, typically the submitter of the story puts a negative spin on it (like today's submission). Of course everyone jumps in and bashes away, not only at Microsoft, but at anyone who tries to speak positively about Microsoft. It doesn't do well to encourage intelligent discussion--anyone who is happy using Microsoft products and speaks up about it around here quickly becomes bitter and defensive. Or they leave.

      Slashdot nowadays is quite similar to the media in the middle east. My grandfather lived in Dubai for 8 or 9 years, and he was amazed that the newspapers had an article about "The Jews" on the front page, every day. The Dubai media never referred to Israel. "The Jews" were always killing Muslim children, subverting the government, doing-random-very-crappy-thing, etc. The media was breeding hate among the people.

      The big difference between Slashdot and Dubai is that the Dubai government was intentionally making people hate to distract them from shady things it was doing, and Slashdot's de-evolution is (probably) not intended. It definitely seems that the editors have got some bug up their ass about Microsoft, but I think they're just publishing what kicks up the most response rather than trying to fan the flames.

      I think it's because Slashdot has become the epicenter of a pro-linux geek subculture. In this subculture, it's cool to hate Microsoft. Folks want to fit in somewhere, so they come to Slashdot and bash Microsoft.

      Linus said in this interview:
      "I've tried to stay out of the Microsoft debate. If you start doing things because you hate others and want to screw them over the end result is bad."
      I don't think he hates Microsoft. He likes Linux.

  60. Supposedly? by tswinzig · · Score: 2

    Most recently (about two years ago) Microsoft added a "Security Update" for Outlook supposedly to protect users against viruses.

    Supposedly?

    The security update DOES do that. When you install it, it does two big things: blocks all access to executable attachments, and requires permission before an external program can gain access to your Address Book or use Outlook to send email.

    Palm can still sync with Outlook, it just requires permission from the user.

    This is also the default behavior in Outlook XP. (Good!)

    Now if we could just get every Outlook user to install the patch or upgrade.

    --

    "And like that ... he's gone."
  61. Forced Security update = Forced Application update by dnoyeb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So now all the people that put out software packages 8 years ago for win98 are being told their apps are collateral damage.

    Now all users on win98 will be FORCED to upgrade if they did not turn off garbage auto update.

    See, just like homeland security, automatic patching starts out with a clean purpose, then they change it on you.

    Recall how many "tricks" were necessary to get around M$ BS. Now their going back to erase those. Yea I can see WordPerfect 7 blowing up now. But I can't see Corel having the resources to fix it.

    This will basically ensure that nothing runs on old "patched" OSes.

    I call this XP strategy #2.

  62. Re:Microsoft and Linus by pmz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    And he's right, the only way to avoid massive layers of backwards-compatible cruft is to just slough off the existing infrastructure and create the OS anew for every release.

    True. However, if the userland apps are written properly using a sufficiently high-level language, even C, and using standards-based and/or portable APIs, then kernel changes should break only the invervening abstraction layers. Download the updated API or whatever (not much effort), and the huge amount of effort that went in to the userland app is preserved.

    This is why I feel so sorry for people who write applications using Windows-only or UNIX-only or whatever-only APIs, when there are portable ways of doing things. Taking standards documents and black-lining the parts that aren't implemented on all the target platforms (thus achieving the lowest-common-denominator) goes a long way towards producing an application that will tolerate volatility at the operating system level. And, really, it isn't much effort for an important piece of software (and a week or two sifting through documentation will only improve the end product, trust me).

    And guess what: even the lowest-common-denominator is usually very useful and sufficient to meet the requirements for the software. People who whine otherwise are usually the eye-candy babies who demand using all the nifty Internet Explorer extensions to make dancing mouse trailers and other garbage (for example).

    The only excusable applications are those written before truly portable APIs came around. For example, old UNIX apps written with Motif should be forgiven, because Qt, Java Swing, and other fairly recent APIs weren't available. But new applications? No excuse at all.

  63. Simpsons Security... by Tsali · · Score: 3, Funny

    Craig: Hi, Homer.

    Homer: Hi. Who are you?

    Craig: I help run a big computer company.

    Homer: Oh. Hi! Do you have donuts?

    Craig: Listen, I know you are a typical user and I want to share with you some very important details about your future personal computing experience.

    Homer: Huh?

    Craig: You have a computer. You bought it from us in 1996.

    Homer: I did?

    Craig: Well, your son did. He didn't buy it either.

    Homer: Oh.

    Craig: Anyhow, we let him keep it. We found out its insecure and in the next day or so, you will need to buy a shiny new one.

    Homer: Why?

    Craig: Because its insecure.

    Homer: Why?

    Craig: Because. So the old stuff won't work anymore.

    (pause)

    Craig: That's bad.

    Homer: Doh!

    Craig: But you have the chance to buy all new stuff. That's good.

    Homer: I'm getting bored. Do you have donuts?

    Craig: No. I'm off now. By the way, can you tell Mr. Burns that the software at his nuclear plant won't work on Monday, provided it isn't hijacked by terrorists after we roll out the new version?

    Homer: Why did I let him in my house? How *did* he get in my house?

    --
    This space for rent.
  64. And you can trust their word! by HiThere · · Score: 2

    I'm sure that when they provide the next "security release" it will be for your own good. I'm sure that it won't involve any new and more restrictive licensing options. I'm sure...

    I'm sure that a vaporware press release is totally trustworthy.

    Aren't you?

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  65. Reminds me of a Chris Rock routine... by gosand · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I agree with a lot of the opinion here that the commentary on this article is crap, and is clearly anti-MS in the worst way.

    But this story reminds me of that great Chris Rock routine. (paraphrasing, and substituting the N word)

    People always want credit for something they're supposed to do.
    I ain't never been to jail. What do you want, a cookie?!

    I take care of my kids. You're supposed to you dumb motherfucker!

    So yes, while it is good that MS is doing this, I think that it is no big deal - they should do it. I am not going to praise them for it, this is what they should have done long before now. I am not going to rail on them either, because they are making some kind of effort. Assuming that they actually do what they say they are going to do. Sorry, but they have a bad track record, I am not going to believe it until I see it. Why am I skeptical? Among other things, I have seen the Win2kSP2 EULA. I wonder what the EULA on these new security patches will look like...

    --

    My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.

  66. Re:Microsoft and Linus by AndroidCat · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Perhaps. They're also trying to force people to upgrade. What happens when you keep getting Word files that have a new incompatable format?

    Microsoft lives on the income from OS/Office upgrades at least as much as from new installs.

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  67. Why this is good, why this is bad. by Whispers_in_the_dark · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It is true that hindsight is 20/20 and noone ever codes software such that it works exactly perfectly the first time out. HOWEVER, it can also be said that Microsoft had a habit of pushing whatever out the door, regardless of known bugs, poor security, or otherwise (Windows ME comes to mind). That they are now requiring the customers to pay for upgrades and such should be a message to the customer as to the type of software supplier they're dealing with -- a fly-by-nighter clothed in its own weight and self-importance.

    The good is that Microsoft is finally going to fix their problems. It's about damn time. The bad is that Microsoft is spinning this thing as if they weren't greatly responsible for the mess they are about to inflict. IMHO, and it is only that, if Microsoft spent more time and resources on testing their crap in the first place instead of pushing it out the door then perhaps so MANY holes wouldn't need to be patched now. There will always be bugs and security flaws but Microsoft as made releasing filth and spinning it as if it were a good thing an art form in itself.

    As always, this is just my opinion. Your milage may vary.

  68. big bucks, too. by budalite · · Score: 2

    This'll be great if they don't charge for ServicePack SecurityPatch 101. Sure I believe that! ;p -- i.e., I bet this is gonna cost somebody big time. BAHA!...Hey, wait, that somebody will probably be ME! (and you and you and you...)

  69. programs written for 2.0 by oliverthered · · Score: 2

    should work on atleast 2.x.

    From what i've heard (and i've experianced) most of the kernal brekages are poorly planned, i.e. If your going to break things, break quite a lot of things at once and get the design good enough that your not going to have to break them again for quite some time.
    Breaking modules once or twice ok, but if you break them more often you should really re-design the interface layers to allow for better backwards compatibility. (I think this is being done in 2.5 and about time!)

    --
    thank God the internet isn't a human right.
  70. Re:Forced Security update = Forced Application upd by Anonymous+Custard · · Score: 2

    Yea I can see WordPerfect 7 blowing up now. But I can't see Corel having the resources to fix it.

    Then maybe Corel will profit when folks start upgrading to Corel 8, or 9. Corel doesn't make any money supporting old versions. The industry can't always wait around supporting really old software. I mean come on, I had version 8 five years ago! Most companies and people like to upgrade their computers at least every five years (and especially over the 1999-2001 tech boom, there's no excuse to still be running computers made so long ago).

  71. That's bad by jsse · · Score: 2

    for them, but they wouldn't listen. My boss has no love on any OS, but he just hate it when MS sales call him from time to time "Windows XX is about to be desupported on XXYY, would you like us to perform a system audit for your company, for free?"

    We're pretty sure we don't want to run mission critical systems on anything that has only 3 years maintenance period.

  72. As long as it isn't on purpose... by Maul · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is a difference between writing a security patch that happens to break an application, and a security patch that is designed to break an application.

    A security patch on any OS could potentially cause problems with software that runs on it. However, it wouldn't put it past me for Microsoft to purposefully make sure that competing products are broken.

    At best case, MS isn't going to purposefully break anything. This is a legitimate attempt to fix security.

    At worst case, this might Microsoft's first step in "testing" the strength of the court to see if they'll notice/tolerate them purposefully breaking applications and then claiming they can't release the fixes to the application maker because it is part of Windows "security."

    --

    "You spoony bard!" -Tellah

  73. Its always the same trade off by teqo · · Score: 3, Insightful
    I bet this has been said here before, but generally increasing security often includes breaking applications by definition. Like application proxies and firewalls, which purposely break some network funtionality in order to secure the network. And for instance, removing the double-click-and-Word-will-open feature for Microsoft Word documents in Microsoft Outlook, which has caused lots of havoc, will break a major convenient functionality of Outlook, from the view of its users.

    So, <paranoid disclaimer>whatever Microsoft is implying when they say that they will break applications</paraoind disclaimer>, it is always "Give me convenience or give me security" (Kudos to these fine guys), otherwise we wouldn't use passwords, encrypted authentication and other inconvenient stuff etc. "Why not just skip all these logins? They make my brain hurt from all the stuff I need to remember..."

    So again, either you demand more knowledge, responsibility and work from the user, or you leave all the necessary security decisions to the software... There is a lot of reason for criticizing Microsoft in many ways, but I think its quite unrealistic to ask for ultimately convenient, ultimately secure software simultaneously... Consequently, either bash them for being insecure or for giving up convenience, please don't do both at the same time, because that doesn't seem to make much Sense(TM) to me... .)

  74. The more of a pain the ass Windows is... by Alethes · · Score: 2

    the more user-friendly Linux appears to Joe Luser.

  75. Comes the Real Wolf by KalenDarrie · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It's hard to trust Microsoft. They've made it their business to be duplicitous. Whether they are honestly concerned about security for its own sake or as a new tool for furthering their goals of profit and dominance, its not easy to look at them and not keep into the shadows and see if anyone is sneaking up to blackjack you in the back of the head.

    All this talk of breaking apps and seemingly shoving things at people is justifiably worrying to many.

    And now that the real wolf has come, its hard to decide if Microsoft is really pointing it out or if they're trying to fool us all again. This is what they have sewn and so they reap it now. Many distrust them and will continue to mistrust them until they show that they are trustworthy once more.

    This is their chance to show everyone that they can be, if not perfect, a moderately upstanding company rather than a domineering bully. I'll be watching them. And I'm sure many more will be as well to see if they can woo back the skeptical.

    --
    Kalen D'arrie
  76. What of End-User Responsibility by DanXP · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Granted, I'm not a user of Linux and most of my computing is done on the Windows platforms but I have to ask what of end-user responsibility when it comes to computer security? I realize there are (and will always be) security issues that end users simply aren't aware of until they're exploited but given the software/application development cycle, the overall complexity of our modern-day computing systems, and the propensity of some to do little but find these security holes, I feel that developers do a fairly decent job in addressing them. Of course they *should* never be there in the first place but it's unreasonable and irrational to expect that with millions of lines of code and hundreds of developers (if not more), human error and simple oversight will be a factor in any application. Windows bashing is entertaining and a good way to get a crowd stirred up but in reality, aren't we in some way responsibile here as well? How many uninformed and ill-prepared users are there out there that don't so much as use anti-virus software? or free and easy-to-use firewall protection? or apply the latest service packs, patches, and updates? After all, would we blame Ford or Chrysler if we left the doors to our car unlocked and were robbed? Of course not. Or maybe we would ;>

    1. Re:What of End-User Responsibility by Dirtside · · Score: 2

      The answer is reasonable accountability. It's reasonable to assume that someone will not buy a child's toy that has sharp razor blades protruding from all angles -- because a reasonable person will understand the dangers of sharp razor blades on a child's toy. But it might not be reasonable to expect that the average person will be aware of the dangers of children's toys made with a particular brand of plastic that, if it burns, emits toxic chemicals that will melt your skin on the slightest contact. It's not reasonable to expect a customer to buy the toy, take it to a chemical testing facility, and have them analyze it, just to see whether it's safe to give to his child. For one thing, EVERY consumer would have to do this -- or at least, a lot of them would, and would have to share their information in a common, concise, reliable way. Grass-roots efforts don't usually do this, so it's more efficient overall to have an agency whose job it is to do this kind of testing.

      Now with the issue of security... if I'm a layperson who wants to be able to send email to my friends who live in other cities, am I going to even have enough education to understand the dangers of using closed-source software? Probably not, for the most part. I probably could learn, if I took the time, but then that's hours I have to spend not doing other things -- and there are a LOT of topics that I could learn about. If every person has to fully understand the nature and intricacies of the email system before they can use it, it would get used a lot less. (Then again, that may not be a bad thing...)

      It's a complex issue; there's definitely an amount of accountability that the companies have when it comes to making sure their software is secure, reliable, and stable; but they can't keep stupid people from doing stupid things, so you have to draw a line somewhere. From such things are endless debates born. :)

      --
      "Destroy science and religion. Science would re-emerge exactly the same; but not religion." - Penn Jillette, paraphrased
  77. When did the roles get reversed??? by SwedishChef · · Score: 2

    Our company admins computer networks for scores of companies, school districts and government agencies; often as a backstop for an on-staff semi-technical person who handles the day-to-day stuff (adding users, etc.). We've always thought that our job was to support them so that their computers make they're more efficient and their work more productive. If someone is competent at WP5.1 and Lotus 2.4 and the applications run fine and the data is safe, why force them to change? Just to make the IT job easier?

    We'd love to move people to Linux and OpenOffice but we face the same issues: people don't want to change and they don't want to lose their macros. So we support them and the applications and utilities *they* choose.

    We learn Oracle for those who use Oracle, and we learn MSSQL for those who use that. We support NT file server, Linux file servers and MAC OS-X file servers depending on which systems the clients and their workers want. We have clients that use Corel Office. We have clients that use MS Office. We even have clients that use DOS workstations and Novell 3.1 to access data running on DB-4!

    We think that a focus on the user is better than a focus on the technology. Sometimes users are forced to upgrade to a newer OS (often because of changes in some core application and reduction in support for the older versions... many of which worked just fine) but we never demand that our customers change unless it's for *their* good, not ours.

    --
    No one ever had to evacuate a city because the solar panels broke!
  78. in the nema of security by hany · · Score: 2, Insightful
    IMO in the name of security they will "force" some othether updates upon users.

    Example: See latest EULA changes introduced in service pack which is (or was) supposed to plug security holes.

    So to add some speculations: This other stuff will be things which will be good for Microsoft, not users (or good also to users, as side-effect). Like DRM, auto-updates, spyware, slow-this-machine-down-on-demand-so-this-luser-buy s-new-machine(TM), etc. :)

    --
    hany
  79. As long as there's no DRM packaged with it... by Rai · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm all for security updates as long as they don't force Digital Restrictions Management or their usual abusive EULAs upon those who install the updates. I want my windows box to be secure, but not at the cost of limiting what I can use it for and what control M$ would gain over my system.

  80. When designed... by forgoil · · Score: 2

    Yes, a very good point. Why didn't Microsoft make everything perfect when they designed Windows? Why don't everyone only make perfect software?

    Get a grip. I think that it is a very good thing that Microsoft now wants to take more responsibility for the product they sell. Just as a car manufacturer should call in cars if they find a problem with them. Of course there are problems when developing software on the scale that Microsoft does, just look at any project that large and involving that many people and you will see that it is hard.

    And yes, windows doesn't have the best design, and no they won't change it because for the majority of their users that would be a bad thing, old software would stop working etc. This is not a free OS given away that you don't have to take any responsibilites with and that you can gladly fuck up things for anyone as much as you want.

    Be on M$ back when they do something stupid, but not when they do something nice. Be consistent please.

  81. Re:Microsoft and Linus by AndroidCat · · Score: 2
    I'd have no problem staying with Office 95. I don't recall any features added in seven years that I actually use.

    The trouble is when a number of other people upgrade to a version with incompatable formats. *baaa*baaa*! The newer versions can save to older formats, but how many people do that? In a business environment, you have to upgrade everyone to keep in sync. (Invariably the company president upgrades first.)

    The whole idea of Office was that you could send files to other people, and they could use them. Microsoft might add features in each release, but don't say that they don't add hooks to encourage an upgrade.

    --
    One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
  82. Re:Forced Security update = Forced Application upd by wandernotlost · · Score: 2
    Most companies and people like to upgrade their computers at least every five years (and especially over the 1999-2001 tech boom, there's no excuse to still be running computers made so long ago).

    That's a bit of a sick attitude. Why should I have to re-buy something every five years? Shouldn't something I buy continue to work, as long as it doesn't wear out from use? Companies like Microsoft design in obsolescence, because they know it will sell more software, when they fix bugs, add new features, etc. This is part of the inherent conflict of interest in commercial software.

  83. Perfection? No, we just want them to learn. by TheConfusedOne · · Score: 2

    Of course they won't write code perfectly.

    Nobody's asking them to write code perfectly.

    People ARE asking them to write NEW code to the current environment. MS continues to simply slap functionality on top of the NT code base. (2000 and XP are still built on top of the initial NT code base.)

    Microsoft knows that they have some serious security problems in their code. MS SVP Brian Valentine has admitted that Windows wasn't designed with security in mind.

    Fine. We'll accept all that.

    The thing is for us to accept that MS is serious about security they're going to have to throw out Windows and start again from the ground up. (Just look at Apple and the OS X line.) You can even code in backwards compatibility, just sandbox it.

    --
    --- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
  84. A god? Oh, please! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
    as silly as protecting god with a sword

    More like protecting a snarling pack of wolves with a duck.

  85. Re:Microsoft and Linus by schlach · · Score: 2

    Good points. And keep in mind that a lot of security fixes that break non-MS apps are due to lousy implementations by the third-party vendor. Microsoft makes the rules for how to code something (for example, an app that hooks the TCP/IP stack). They say, if you follow these rules, your app will not break in the future. Third-party vendors then go and hook the TCP/IP stack in some totally unpredictable way, which should be a bug/broken implementation, except it happens to work at the time. And then it becomes popular. And Microsoft gets in this position where if they want to make changes, they have to convince the vendor to recode their stupid app, or risk having a bunch of people going around saying "I installed XX patch and then my broken-app stopped working!"

    If someone found a way to solve this problem (and stay profitable), I'm sure they'd listen...

  86. Re:Like photoshop vs gimp. by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 2

    Hmm. Perhaps you should show us your design for an RGB printer. Perhaps you should demonstrate which combinations of Red, Green, and Blue ink produce Yellows. Perhaps you should further demonstrate how you manage to produce blacks cheaply and without misalignment.

  87. I'll bite (Re:for christsake) by lildogie · · Score: 2

    > What OS didn't need security fixes after it was released.

    I can't resist:

    CPM, Multics, MVS, System-40, ...

    (i.e. any OS that died before the Internet)

  88. Re:Like photoshop vs gimp. by Rader · · Score: 2

    hahahaha!

    Yea, we should replace our million dollar printing presses because someone developed some software to work with monitors.

  89. Wary of Palladium/DRM being thrown into this by Kaa · · Score: 2

    Y'know, in the MS/RIAA/MPAA/etc. newspeak, the word "security" can mean many different things.

    One of the things it means, especially in the Palladium/DRM context, is "security for our software to run and do whatever it wants without you, stupid user, being able to do anything about it". The whole idea of Palladium/"secure computing" is trying to secure my computer against me.

    Now, if you think about "security" this way, Mundy's promise to break old apps in the name of security starts to look fairly omnious...

    --

    Kaa
    Kaa's Law: In any sufficiently large group of people most are idiots.
  90. hmm.. by talks_to_birds · · Score: 2
    "...Even if that means that some applications will mallfunction..."

    Cool.

    I've always wanted my Window$ apps to work while I was shopping at the mall...

    t_t_b

    --
    I'm on PJ's "enemies" list! Are you?
  91. Re:Forced Security update = Forced Application upd by wandernotlost · · Score: 2
    It's not that people are compelled to upgrade to keep their existing system and apps working, but that in the space of five years people find that they use their PCs for more and different things, and find that they need to upgrade in order to do these news things.

    That's not the case we're talking about here. Also, people are compelled to upgrade to keep their existing system working, because of bugs and security. Some of this is unavoidable, but...

    As for the charge of planned obsolescence, you are assuming that MS are omniscient

    Not at all. MS certainly has the resources to make a product that is more reliable, more secure, and nearly bug-free. They make a choice not to do so, and admit that this is the case, because a product fitting the above description would impede sales of future "upgrades." The fact that MS dominates the market makes it easier for them to get away with this.

  92. No need for Linux without security holes? by daviddennis · · Score: 2

    You haven't checked out the cost of Microsoft licensing lately, have you?

    "Software Assurance" is making a lot of people pretty upset. As is the per seat cost of programs like Windows servers, Exchange and Outlook.

    D

  93. crappy app filters by bored · · Score: 2

    Accually, in a lot of cases all M$ needs to do is flip a bunch of the defaults to the more secure setting and a whole bunch of applications won't install or run properly. I run as a non administrative user in 2000, and I'm always hitting applications that want to modify a HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE registry entry or some system specific file. Its completly uncalled for 99% of the time. Why does a cheezy 3rd party email client need to change the global settings, instead of my local user prefrences. Its like web pages, change your security settings to a little more restrictive and suddenly some cheezy web page refuses to work instead of running in a degraded mode.

  94. Re:Microsoft and Linus by pmz · · Score: 2

    licensing fees

    These are almost always trivial relative to the developers' wages and the project management overhead. A thousand dollars or whatever for Qt, for example, or even ten or twenty thousand dollars for a portable 3D kernel, will be worth it when people start thinking differently in the future. Business requirements change, and the software should be able to change with them. The only applications that themselves are cheaper than the licensing are trivial one-day apps that meet what is sometimes a short-sighted immediate need.

    If performance is a requirement for the software, extra abstraction layers just get in the way.

    Then optimize the 1% to 5% of code that performs inadequately. This takes much less time than migrating a whole code base to a new operating system API.

    For example, if your program needs to clean up on forcible termination, a portable API probably isn't going to solve this on Windows because the app doesn't receive a signal; it just gets killed.

    I don't see any option fixing this, unless separate processes keep watch on eachother. This sort of stuff can be partitioned off into a module called "Platform-specific Module". It will be a very small part of the application.

    New applications will be written in Motif if the spec says they are written in Motif.

    Who wrote that spec? That person is either tied to a legacy code base (a legitimate cause) or is living in the distant past. I don't see any good reason to keep Motif around for new applications.

  95. Insecurity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Microsoft: We're releasing this, but you'll probably find bugs.
    Slashdot: Damn them and their bugs!!!
    Microsoft: Okay, we've created the patches, but you may lose a little functionality.
    Slashdot: Damn the patches!!! Admins can fix this themselves!!!

    Anybody see something wrong with this picture?

  96. Re:Look, I don't want to state the obvious, here, by Whispers_in_the_dark · · Score: 2
    Bill Gates is a smart business man. Microsoft is a successful business. As such, the $ is the bottom line. Analzying their products from any other perspective is a waste of time.
    Ok, let's try it that way. American Consumer, how do you feel about having to $re-purchase$ all of your favorite applications because the original authors had such a dodgy base on which to build their programs?
  97. Tightening up Windows by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting
    It used to be, in the NT 3.5 era, that many apps supposedly written to the Win32 API didn't run on NT, generally because the apps were broken. NT 4.0 put in more backwards compatibility stuff (mostly by sticking mediocre code from Win95 into the NT kernel, over Dave Cutler's objections), and XP stands on its head to keep some old apps working, with lots of little "hint" files. All of that stuff should go.

    Microsoft may prohibit self-modifying code and code on the stack. You don't get any performance gain with either technique any more, since processors went superscalar.

    And maybe Microsoft will delete the 16-bit compatibilty engine. It's time. In NT 3.5x, the 16-bit engine was optional, the system ran fine without it, and it should have stayed that way.

    Microsoft will probably do something to break Word 97, and blame it on "security". They need the revenue. But there's a problem:

    Plugging those holes, he said, would require not just rolling out new versions of Windows, but forcing security fixes onto users of older Windows versions, which he claimed was 30 to 40 times larger than the installed base of current versions.

    XP sales must be lower than Microsoft admits. Microsoft has to make sure that their pressure forces people to upgrade to XP, rather than locking people into the legacy OS. Expect something on the server side that makes Internet usage difficult for legacy users.

    1. Re:Tightening up Windows by statusbar · · Score: 2
      • Microsoft may prohibit self-modifying code and code on the stack. You don't get any performance gain with either technique any more, since processors went superscalar.

      Unfortunately, not very likely. From :

      Microsoft Research's Detours Library:

      • Detours intercepts Win32 functions by re-writing target function images....

      These tools, which are only useful because of the closed-source nature of Win32 systems and their apps, is a Microsoft recommended way of extending API's and applications. Microsoft themselves do this to their own systems - Self Modifying code! And it isn't going to change very soon.

      Who woulda thunk it? (ha ha)

      --jeff++

      --
      ipv6 is my vpn
    2. Re: Tightening up Windows by Antity · · Score: 2

      Microsoft may prohibit self-modifying code and code on the stack. You don't get any performance gain with either technique any more, since processors went superscalar.

      Sidenote: It's even worse, since self-modifying code will cause a huge speed penalty on many modern CPUs.

      That said, as another poster a bit above said, I'm also curious how EULAs for older software - like Windows98SE - will look like. There's no "we allow ourselves to install our code on your system anytime we want to" policy on Windows98SE yet (not talking about that MediaPlayer - it just isn't in any Bugfixes), but if new bugs are found, I'm pretty sure MS is going to add that paragraph to any new bugfix even for 98SE... Silently expanding their policy to any Win box out there.

      And then, if you stuck to 98SE or ME or whatever because of strange EULAs with XP (service pack 1, need I say more?), there will be no way to fix your system without EULA-ing even your old box. Sad, that is.

      --
      42. Easy. What is 32 + 8 + 2?
  98. MS ain't the only one. . . by jafac · · Score: 2

    Bitch and moan all you want about MS breaking apps with each upgrade.

    Apple does that too.
    Anyone running Jaguar yet?
    Even 10.1 broke some things.
    7.5 to 8.0 broke a whole buttload of things, IIRC.
    And the worst transition was to 9.0. I remember that almost every single shareware app I had broke for 9. I stuck with 8.6 for 2 years because of that.

    That's why it's so profitable to be a Mac developer. Your users have to upgrade every 12 months because the OS breaks it.

    And no, I'm not talking about the Classic->X upgrade, that's a whole different enchilada. Doesn't count in my book.

    --

    These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
  99. Re:They just can't win can they by walt-sjc · · Score: 2

    Um, bashing MS is not new. MS prommising to fix security is also not new. MS continually putting out shoddy insecurly designed and configured is also not new.

    Instead of focusing on real basics like securing the design of outlook so it's not so prone to viruses and worms, changing the defaults in windows so that c:\windows isn't world-writable, not installing and running virtually every service by default, etc., etc., etc., MS is deciding to break things forcing people to upgrade ($$$) thinly shrouded in a disguise of "security".

    When MS REALLY AND TRUELY gets serious on security, stops behaving badly (horrible invasive EULA's, stops the practice of embrace and extend, abusing competitors with the power of their monopoly, opens proprietary file formats and protocols, etc.), THEN I may stop bashing them. History proves that MS is NOT doing anything in your best interest but rather only what is the best interest of their bank account.

    Oh yeah: Disclosure alert - Rossalina works for MS. Check her user info.

  100. let's try to be fair by GunFodder · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The trade rags may be sycophantic pole-smokers, but I'd like to think the Slashdot population is more fair than that. We have been kicking Microsoft square in the nuts about their lack of security for years now, so does it make sense to flipflop and start kicking them for taking security seriously?

    Now if the article was more like "Microsoft breaks apps to implement security, offers expensive upgrades" then we could continue kicking M$'s family jewels guilt-free.

  101. Re:Forced Security update = Forced Application upd by Anonymous+Custard · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Why then should Billy and his thugs be able to just come in and render everything useless?

    Why should they let these vulnerabilities, some of which can be used for massive digital attacks, continue to exist in a product with their name on it? And it's not going to "render everything useless," Mr. Hyperbole.

    When you have your computer connected to the internet, it is your responsibility to make sure you don't do any damage with it - intentional or not. Too many people have ignored that moral/social obligation.

    Think of it as a Digital Emissions Inspection. If your old car can't pass modern emissions regulations, but you want to still drive it, you'll need to replace some old parts with new parts, and those repairs aren't guaranteed to be cheap.

    What if people had a wireless phone that, due to age and poor initial programming, started jamming all other wireless signals within 500 feet. Is it fair to let these phones continue operating, just cause they were able to many years ago? Of course not. The FCC or some agency would recall/outlaw these phones. Well, computers are approaching that level of potential for damage, in that compromised systems can easily be used for massive DoS attacks that can seriously disrupt large networks. Software developers and users have a responsibility to do their best to make sure this does not happen.

    Everyone complains about the security problems in Windows, and have derided them for it for years. So when Microsoft trys to own up and fix the problems, 3rd party application developers should do their part and follow suit.

  102. A terrific move by Microsoft by erroneus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Recall that long ago, Microsoft wanted to move away from 16bit code by going to Windows9X and also with NT, they wanted to grow in the server and professional side. Ultimately, they hoped to merge their products and so far, I don't feel they've been all that successful.

    The biggest problem with NT is that it attempted to maintain compatibility with older stuff. It was important at that time they do it like this. (Personally, I think they should have thrown compatibility to the wind long ago to focus on stability and security... it's a SERVER after all, not a game machine or a workstation... make a separate workstation product with compatibility modules... but that's history now anyway...)

    Now, with intense focus on security, they are proving themselves as serious players in sacrificing "performance and compatibility" by closing serious holes even at the expense of current software compatibility. I say BRAVO Microsoft for making such a bold and courageous move. Only a company with monopoly force can really afford to pull that move off and if you ask me, it's a decision late in coming.

    Many people have me labelled as anti-microsoft and a Linux pusher but actually I'm not. While I agree with most of the anti-microsoft commentary and just about all of the pro-linux and open source stuff, I'm not religious about it. If I like it or see value in it, I'll use it. It's that simple. I appreciate what I interpret as a mature direction Microsoft is about to undertake.

    I think it's a bit unfair for jointm1k to tack on the bit about "shoulda done it before they designed Windows..." In an industry that changes as often with technology as it does with "fashion" (consider shifts to and from client-server) It's tough for any company to keep up with current times let alone predict the future of computing 10 years down the road... even a company that, at times, sets the standards of industrial computing.

    Microsoft has lost a lot of respect in the industry -- not only in the eyes of IT professionals, but also in the eyes of blue/grey-suited business people. I think it's important for Microsoft's future to do that. I'm also a little afraid of what would happen to computing in general if there were a mass shift away from Microsoft. I wish it were, but I don't think Linux based business solutions are ready for prime-time. (* brace for impact! *)

    Long live Linux and all it stands for. Peace out.

  103. I figure MS wants to change it because... by Codifex+Maximus · · Score: 2

    they need to stay incompatible.

    All through the years, they had gnarly cruft in their API's for backward compatability and to maintain incompatability with competitors.

    Now that they have sold us a bill (hic) of goods for a while, they now want to do a 180 and sell the "fixed" OS to us again with all new "fixed" Apps. Those people who don't upgrade? They aren't Microsoft customers. They are not playing MS's game of constant upgrade cycles. They must be made to pay and dearly.

    Also, wine, with it's emulation of the cruft, is becoming very usable now and high profile. Time to break it!

    No doubt that finally "fixing" things is the Right Thing(tm) to do but... I don't for one minute believe they are doing it for the Right Reason(tm).

    --
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  104. Re:The question in my mind is... by symbolic · · Score: 2

    ...what comes with it? In order to install said 'security fixes,' will it entail agreeing to one of Microsoft's newer, more arcane licensing policies? No thanks. I'm not sure where the value lies in trading one form of inanity for another.

  105. Re:Unpleasant exception by oconnorcjo · · Score: 2

    Oracle. I cannot get it to install on newer systems without installing lots of backwards compatibility stuff.

    What you are talking about has nothing to do with the Linux kernel but everything to do with your Linux distributor who did not do the right thing and provide compatibility by default. Oracle claims to only run on Redhat and I am surprised if Redhat messed this one up but since I don't run Oracle, I really don't know the details. However, glibc breakage has nothing to do with kernel breakage.

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  106. Nobody's writing bugs for win95 anymore by dnoyeb · · Score: 2

    Nobody's writing bugs for win95 anymore. That stopped in well...95 ;)

    As for viruses. Most hackers have upgraded to XP anyway.

  107. Security Policy by SEWilco · · Score: 2, Informative
    The difference is that Posix and many other systems have a security design philosophy that "user programs must not interfere with each other or the system".

    Any changes which stop an interference are acceptable because it's a basic part of the system design. Apps have to work within the system's design. Usually there is only one app affected because well-behaved programs avoid banging against all the walls of their cage. (Indeed, Unix changes which will affect several apps...or even only a few specialized users of unusual device drivers... get much discussion and adjustment so as to break as little as possible while not leaving any weaknesses)

  108. ACK!!! Re:Give me a break? YES FORCED! by Hyped01 · · Score: 2
    Why do people keep repeating this "forced on them?" crap?!??! MS already admitted in their newest EULA that comes with various "security updates" and Media Player that they are indeed mandatory, at whatever interval or time MS decides they want to do an update.

    READ first, post later. Especially when you dont even have to leave /. to find the EULA in question.

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  109. MS EULA DRM by Hyped01 · · Score: 2
    [Note the subject... type it into Google, in case you forget that for anything anti MS you can just search /. - and you will find result #2... Slashdot (gee, what a weird place to find this info) and #5/6 The Register (another frequent /. story source - even cited in the noted /. article].

    Now, if you read the posts, and the links to the stories and EULA, you notice what you find?

    1 - these EULA's give MS the rights to FORCE their updates on you.

    2 - these updates, fixes, security fixes, etc, focus on DRM more than true security issues.

    So... anyone STILL falling for this "Gee, we finally realized that security is a big deal... took us 3 years since that turnip truck - dunno why we were on a turnip truck 3 years ago, but we were... but anyway, this time we really mean what we say about security being important. Before when we said it was and did nothing, that was different - but the same as the time before that, which was also different than this time... oh - and this has nothing to do with DRM - so dont read your EULAs that come with these 'fixes' since they tell you it does have to do with DRM and give us permission to full access to your machine, as well as rights to update, add or delete files as we see fit..."

    So... who's buying this latest round of bull? Show of hands anyone?

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  110. geek 101 by MegaFur · · Score: 2

    Microsoft is the Evil Empire. Threfore, it's only natural that people hate them. You are right though--people shouldn't simply bash M$--at least they shouldn't all the time. :-) Instead, they should continually remind people of their past history of destroying all who stand in their way by buying them, or copying their stuff and running them out of business. Whenever Bill Gates talks of Microsoft's "freedom to innovate", what he really means is "freedom to steal". (or if you want to me to be more accurate and less dramatic: "freedom to use other peoples' ideas unconditionally without having to pay them or give them credit or be indebted to them in anyway". This would not be so bad except that MS doesn't want to extend that same, uh, courtesy to anyone who does the same to them. They want it all. All the time. They don't want to share.

    Btw, did you actually read the article? It's not good at all. It tries to make the implicit assertion: "computer security problems" == "potential for cyberterrorism". Not a good thing for people to get in their heads. The article even makes reference to 9/11! This is the worst part:

    During the week of Sept. 11-18, 2001, terrorist attacks and the Nimda virus changed the public's perspective on security, [Mundie] said.

    Not good for us geeks, not good at all.

    --
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