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Bobby Fischer FBI Files Released Under FOIA
An anonymous reader writes: "Philidelphia Inquirer has a stroy detailing the results of a FOIA request for chess great Bobby Fischer." Turns out they thought the anti-semitic chess grandmaster(and his mother) was a soviet spy.
playing chess?
I mean... and they let that chinese dude (who stole nuclear secrets and whatnot) get away with it?
at least target people who can remotely have access to important stuff, man.
fp, btw, maybe
My life in the land of the rising sun.
What's a "stroy"?
-D
I hope they don't release my FBI file about me watching TV and on the computer all day.
Free Instant Site Inclusion
Have they finally confirmed that he's playing on the internet? :)
I wonder how hard it was for her to draw child support because she was a thought of soviet supporter?
I think Laurence Fishburn needs to pull the non-existant spoon out of the ass of the FBI
Just in case anyone was wondering whether the FBI were getting this guy all wrong here's Bobby Fischer's radio call-in on 9/11 applauding the terrorists [mp3] [Newspaper report on Bobby Fischer's 9/11 radio call].
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
Yes, you caught us. America is a military dictatorship. You found us out. Our military state is run by those pesky Jews, who go around making up things like the Holocaust, and running Hollywood, and exterminating the Palestinians, and running the FBI and the CIA and all the black ops agencies I can't tell you about because the Zionist Conspiracy told me not to.
You and the nutty, paranoid anti-semites like yourself should grow up and grow a sack. Jews are people like any other people, some are violent and hawkish, some are pacifist doves, some are in between. Many are selfish, many are selfless. Some are brilliant, some are morons, most are just somewhat above average (typical for those from a culture that values learning and intellectual accomplishment).
Why do Jews have a lot of influence in America? Because Jews work hard and achieve success in academia, business and other areas at a higher rate than the rest of the population. Some other ethnic groups have achieved similar sorts of success in America. Do Jews control the US? Give me a break. That's as likely as your implicit claim that all those Palestinians are entirely innocent and are just getting slaughtered like hogs. Granted, lots of innocent blood has been shed on both sides (no, telling me that 4 times as many Palestinians have died doesn't make a fuck bit of a difference to me as in no way makes for a moral argument) in Israel and the occupied territories, but implying that somebody is turning a blind eye to some mysterious atrocities is ridiculous.
No kidding.
As an American citizen I am totally disgusted with our double-standards regarding the Jews / Arabs. The Jews' 'mission from God' to reclaim the land of their legends no matter what the cost to the people who actually live there now must be ended in the name of humanity, but I doubt that America will make a move to right the wrongs unless they come under intense terrorist attack - which unfortunately is quite likely so we will see.
You would be surprised at how many Americans are willing to sweep the issue under the carpet because the current situation works out well for the US economically.
what does him being anti-semetic have to do with anything?
I mean if he hated asians, they wouldn't write him as an "ANTI-ASIAN chess grandmaster"
How come when someone is an anti-semite it has to be painted all over them throughout the article.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
How did that dude get so fucked up.
For someone who is capable of such incredible reasoning you would think he would turn out much different than a southern white trash redneck.
I'm not totally informed on all of the details but when I hear him say "dirty jew" and other nasty things about the Israelis I just wanna slap him and say "WTF happened to you?!?!"
under the "Quickies" topic?
I miss quickies!
knock it off , stop disliking people of a group because some are bad. Treat people more as individuals and less as groups.
Wen Ho Lee was not a spy. He was railroaded for political reasons, and released with a presidential apology, after those reasons were no longer important.
I find that it's frquently the case that naturalized citizens are more profoundly loyal to their country than those born to citizenship.
If you are going to post something stupid, at least do us the courtesy of making it appear factual.
-- Terry
Check this out:
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/fischer/
It even has his e-mail address at the bottom, or so it claims. Also, quite a lot of callin shows.
Try reading it again, you seam to have read everything but the words "white trash". If you wish to call yourself white trash as well as southern and redneck then by all means do so, just don't accord yourself with the same respect a decent human being would presume.
I happen to be southern myself so your argument is pretty fucking moot. Next time don't just read what you want to read, read what is actually there.
Cry to someone that actually gives a damn.
Because Jews work hard and achieve success in academia, business and other areas at a higher rate than the rest of the population
It's interesting that you reject all negative stereotypes about Jews, but you are very much for perpetuating 'positive' ones.
Prejudice is prejudice, is it not?
"Bobby Fischer got underneath it like no one before and found at its center, art. I spent my life trying to play like him. Most of these guys have. But we're like forgers. We're competent fakes. His successor wasn't here tonight. He wasn't here. He is asleep in his room in your house. Your son creates like Fischer. He sees like him, inside."
And in the words of Homeless Fishburne, "COME ON GRANDMASTER.. All right, CHECK to his majesty, no, no, no, no, check yourself before you wreck yourself, you can't have it, HELLO! That's right, run, run, somebody call the police, this man is loitering!"
Since when has hate ever been "right"? When has hate ever solved anything?
That was the most pathetic rationalization I have ever heard promoting hate.
Fischer's anti-semitism and his apparent approval of the attack on the World Trade Center might make him an asshole, but it doesn't make him a terrorist, and it certainly doesn't retroactively make him a Soviet spy in the 1970's or vindicate any of the FBI's suspicions.
As explained in the article, the FBI had a long-running investigation of Fischer and his mother back in the 70's and earlier. It's just another illustration that the US govt has been spying on its own citizens for decades, long before there was any sort of terrorist rationalization.
I concur. They are making it seem like a crime to hold a certain attitude towards a certain population, the jewish people.
... even if unsubstantiated. With freedom of speech, people will be able to distinguish truth from falsity. When restrictions are placed and a portion of the population is given special untouchable-from-criticism status, the people are not given this opportunity to guage truth from falsehood and suspicion and corruption of truth will brew even more so.
Case in point. John McCain has more than once voiced his anti-Vietnamese attitude. You don't see the press calling him the Anti-Vietnamese Senater.
Of course if Joe Smoe says anything negative about jewish people, IMMEDIATELY everyone (like a reflex action) labels him an antismetic and it's like he is a pedophile and they discount everything that he says, even the truthful elements.
I find this behavior troubling because: 1. it creates restriction on freedom of speech and thought for the general population. 2. It creates white/non-jewish backlash against minority groups.
Both of these troubling, growing situations can be prevented by BEING FAIR and not trying to make the jewish population untouchable from public comments, even if the comments happen to be negative
Of course, I'm sure I will be labeled anti-semetic after this post by the ignorant and by pro-censors. But, please think about it. I'm advocating freedom of speech, an essential pillar of our democratic society that is being chiseled away at for the past decade or so.
"long before there was any sort of terrorist rationalization. "
Actually terrorism has been around in the mainstream American sense, since the 1950's, which is why Kennedy formed the U.S. Navy SEAL's in 1962. Their aim was specifically targeted at terrorism, Yasser Arafat in particular.
We have just become complacent because since the mid 80's the American media has been more focused on what happens within our borders rather than outside them. This is what 911 changed, the American medias focus, and in affect ours.
Its been going on for a long time.
I think he meant Bill Clinton or his buddies at Loral.
But it doesn't have to be, because it is already, willingly, a militarist society. It's no accident
Letterman has servicemen reciting his top 10 list 50 odd times a year--you USians just love the uniform and the killing game.
1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
Actually, I don't think that word applies here. It's not a stereotype, because it's not an opinion or an image. It's just a statement of fact. Look at any elite university in the country and you will probably find that Jews represent a greater proportion of the student population than they do of the population at large. Does this mean that "Jews are smarter than other people" or "all Jews are smart" or some other clearly fallacious bullshit? Of course not, that's crazy, as crazy as saying "all Blacks are thieves". Do more Black people, proportionally, commit certain kinds of crimes than White people? Yes - statement of fact, you can back it up by pretty solid statistics.
Prejudice is "an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts." according to the American Heritage dictionary. I don't believe that observing cultural behavior patterns among certain ethnic groups and their statistically verifiable results amounts to prejudice. Saying that "Jews are dirty cheats" or "Asians are passive little math nerds" or "all Blacks are thieves" are all fundamentally opinion-laden, overly broad statements that are not verifiable (the first or second) or just plain not true (the third). The only opinion-laden part of my statement was the phrase "work hard", and while there are certainly other ways to explain some of the observable consequences, many others can be explained by no other means.
If you want facts and figures and so forth, go to Google, I am sure you can find some. And of course, note that according to the definition of the word, noting positive accomplishments of certain groups is NOT prejudice, and if it consists primarily of facts rather than opinions, it is not a stereotype either.
Bobby Fischer's wild paranoid anti-semitic rants really make him come across as a total asshole.
Some time after he was locked out of the USA by the state department, he would go onto foreign radio shows and say the most outrageous things.
In his own opinion, he did more for the image of the US during the cold war than any other individual. Indeed.
And they fucked his family and him over. Instead of respect he got suspicion and hounding.
So perhaps in his own opinion, he can do more to damage the image of the USA by spouting off. Retracting and degrading everything he did for the US image.
Trying to take back what he gave them.
IIRC, Fischer was never publicly anti-Semitic (or very political at that) until some time after he retired. The FBI was tracking him for other reasons.
His actions in 2001 were created by a LIFETIME of US gov tormenting him.
If I were Fischer I would hate the US too.
They tried to ruin his life.
The us also tried to ruin Osama Bin Laden's life, and according to Frontline on PBS tried to assasinate him twice in the
1990s but failed (I assume his Allah protected him).
Then they destroyed a factory of his in the Sudan and international technicians proved it was for only regular
pharmaceuticals.
Then Osama could not take it anymore and may have tried to participate in destroyingh the world trade centers.
It was his revenge. Finally.
I know how Fischer too must have felt.
The US gove BANS chess people from playing overseas. EVEN in 2002!!!!! Its true, certain chess experts are banned from
international competition if the contests are in certain countries that embarrass the US.
speech like mine is supressed in the us.
How do you explain the large 'donations' to EACH political party in the run-up to each US election?
And why does America sell so many 'weapons of mass destruction' to Israel and not to the Palestinians - the ones who are protecting their land from the invading Jews?
To say that the Jews control America is an overstatement. But when talking about the issues which are important to the Jews - ie the invasion of Palestine and the crushing of anyone who opposes them, America is right behind them because if they were not, the next election campaign budget would be severly in the red.
And as for whether America is turning a blind eye to the Palestine invasions, I think they certainly are - in the same way they are turning a blind eye to the Nike (and other) sweat-shops around the world. It benefits America (or the politicians) so it happens. Very short sighted. Next time you hear of a terrorist attack, stop and ask yourself "Why?". And then try to answer it with these issues in mind.
I have noticed that, on more than one occasion, the editors have modified submissions and introduced grammar errors.
Politically correct nonsense. The largest motivating factor in technological innovation in the history of the world has almost univerally been
that of war. Our country today was founded upon principals of hatred just as much as it was founded upon principles of fraternal love and justice... two principles which have seen quite a decline in modern times. How so? It was hatred of another nation trying to impose its sovreignty upon us, it was the hatred of those who would enslave us. It hatred that drives our desires just as equally as love. To deny the effectiveness of hate in accomplishing goals, in ruling people, in innovation, in society itself as a factor for change... is to deny your own humanity. Hate is just as necessary as love. To say that hate is never right is merely to be hateful of that same emotion. It is irrational bullshit spoon fed to you by indoctrinating morons. Ignorant hatred cannot be tolerated, though if given reason hatred is just as viable as love.
Okay troll, I'll bite.
It's posts like this which cause more hate. And it's just complete bullshit.
If you've ever been to Israel, you'd probably be surprised that there's a lot of arabs living there. A lot of these are people who voted for Ariel Sharon, someone people like you love to slander. The jews are willing to allow the palestinians in their borders. That's not a problem. It never has been.
What it is they don't want is a terrorist state on their borders. How would you like it if instead of having Canada to the north of the United States, you had a nation run by Osama bin Laden?
For the last time, the jews and Israel are NOT anti-palestinian. Ariel Sharon has agreed to the formation of a palestinian state. All he wants, and all the jews want, is to not hate a terrorist state right on their border. Is that so unreasonable to ask?
What really disgusts me is the homicide bombings against innocent israelis. Some of these are being done by young kids. There's brainwashing at work when stuff like that could be allowed to happen.
I'd like to see you justify that.
Has anyone actually heard what this guy said? If I were a US agency I would be on his ass like white on rice. He is insane. A true murderous madman who has wiped out a generation of great chess with one hate-filled tirade. Someone please lock this guy up. Seriously. His message is poison.
Pure hate spews out of this guys mouth. Listen to the audio MP3. Unreal.
One of his final gems: "The Jews made up the Holocaust". How nice, and a pure lie. What a horrible thing to say, from any angle, whatever his past was like. This guy is in the same league as the Timothy Mcveighs of the world. NUTS.
Either you mean what you say or not. This has nothing to do with PCness. This guy is insane and filled with rage. We need less of those people around.
Violent talks just lead to violent acts. USA doesn't need someone like him. They've got enough of those to deal with already
The reason people don't bitch at John McCain about hating Vietnamese is that they kept him in a prison camp for 4 years. They probably killed friends of his.
Never mind that we were over there in their country.
Still though. If anyone keeps me in a cage in the jungle for 4 years? Fuck you.
For most American's, Jews are still that weak ethnic group that we let get killed back 50 years ago. We're still saving them today (if the US cut off the aid, Israel would be gone within a decade).
If we had an Arab sentaor who'd had a Jewish bullet in his ass, I don't think we'd complain that he hated the Jews.
someone should tell the FBI that grandmaster!=godfather ;)
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
There was an interesting article recently about the fact that much (most) of the US support for Israel isn't due to Jewish "influence" (as is always claimed) but actually is a product of right-wing fundamentalist Christians.
How in the heck could that be true? Well the Jews must be in possession of the Jewish homeland in order for the Christian end-of-the-world prophesies to become true. Current events are seen as steps in fulfilling the prophecies. In fact, there are Christian groups that make pilgrimages to Israel to support the highly controversial and inflammatory "settlements" that occupy the historic land of Armageddon. Yes, this land must be occupied by Jews in order for Christ to return, they believe.
Anyway, that crackpot Jerry Falwell and other "influential" televangelists and right-wing Christians have thrown their support behind any federal government action that keeps Israel in power, but for Christian reasons.
Here is just one of many links on it. Use Google.
http://www.aei.org/ra/raschn020427.htm
Please tell me what business Jewish people have in the Middle East. I would really like to know. I think the Palestinians who WERE there fucking first would like to know as well.
Here's a hint and a half for your ass: You want peace for Israel? Let them settle in a fucking country where they will be welcomed with open arms. Fuck the "promised land" bullshit -- it's religious BULLSHIT fairy tales (on ALL sides, zealotted Islam included) is responsible for 99.999% of the world's strife. It's the god damn 21st century, TIME TO GROW THE FUCK UP AND DISPENSE WITH THE FAIRY TALES!
semetic peoples are the people of asia and north africa... they are broken down into specific categories (East, Chanaanitic, Aramaic, Arabian-Abyssianan, etc). in otherwords, to be anti-semetic is to hate an entire group of peoples including both the israllies, the palastinians, morrocans, the iraqis, the iranians... pretty much all of the middle east and northernmost africa, non-exclusive. fischer clearly supports the palastinians and is therefore, clearly not anti-semetic, he just is anti-israelli.
The Article talked about how it was hard for her to hold a job
And even more so it talked about how the FBI tracked their every move, often mishandling infomation because of assumptions that were not looked into further.
So I'd like to know just why I'm flamebait for a question that was quite honest, I have had my fair share of problems with child support
Is it near Philadelphia?
i find it interesting that the article chooses to talk about how he has voiced these anti-semetic and anti-american ideas, but then not go to any length to explain why. to his credit he did grow up slightly differently than most people and the pressures he endured are bound to have had some kind of negative effect. i think we should think about this before going off and blasting him.
p.s. this was done entirely without capital letters because everytime i hit shift my computer types an s. does anyone have any idea what the hell is wrong? it has become an extreme pain to punctuate and im seriously considering breaking my POS computer.
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals."
speech like mine is supressed in the us.
you mistake "supression" with the fact that no one (except the tin-foilers) listens to or agrees with you.
ECONOMICALLY? How so? We alienate the arab nations, which control half the world's oil supply, in order to support a nation that has no oil whatsoever. We support Israel so much, in fact, that fully 1/3rd of their GDP is in the form of American aid. That's right, essentially one in three Israelis is living off of American handouts. How does this provide the USA with an economic benefit?
No, there are reasons that we support Israel, but money ain't one of them. We support Israel because of the holocaust. After WWII, the Allies decided that because of the horrors the Jewish people had endured (not only at the hands of the Nazis, but throughout their history), Israel would be turned over to them. Because we made that commitment, we back them. The second reason is suicide bombing. The Israelis may commit military actions which are of dubious morality (at best), but they've never sent in suicide bombers, or taken actions with no strategic value whatsoever. The third reason is historical. The arab nations in the middle east attacked Israel repeatedly without provocation. Each defeat has made them more and more hostile. Between terrorist actions like the slaughter of the Israeli Olympic team and wars of agression from the First Arab-Israeli War onward, it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
" Before Bobby Fischer left for Russia in the summer of 1958, an agent posed as a college journalist to interview producers of the TV show I've Got a Secret. Bobby had been a guest on the show and won plane tickets to Russia. (Fischer's "secret?" He was U.S. chess champion. The panel was stumped.) "
I'm stumped too. Stumped how a gameshow in America, in 1958, could give away air tickets to Russia?! What else did you win, bug detector so you could tell when the feds were watching?
it's fucking true
The us also tried to ruin Osama Bin Laden's life, and according to Frontline on PBS tried to assasinate him twice in the 1990s but failed (I assume his Allah protected him).
Like Saddam Hussain OBL is a former US puppet who turned on his "masters".
Then Osama could not take it anymore and may have tried to participate in destroyingh the world trade centers.
Maybe Castro is less easily upset, considering the number of botched US assasination attempts he has faced. Though if OBL wanted revenge why not target the CIA HQ?
The US gove BANS chess people from playing overseas. EVEN in 2002!!!!! Its true, certain chess experts are banned from international competition if the contests are in certain countries that embarrass the US.
Does the US actually need other countries to embarrass it, all too often the US can manage without anyone elses help...
Fischer just doesn't seem to understand that his insightful opinions are drowned in his ludicrous conspiracy theories and anti-semitism.
Lemon curry???
OR this
OR this
Palestinians In Bethlehem Say Damage Shows Israelis Bent On Revenge
By DON MELVIN / Cox Washington Bureau 04-08-02
BETHLEHEM, West Bank -- When Israeli troops stormed his Lutheran church compound in Bethlehem, the Rev. Mitri Raheb, who was on an upper floor, pushed his 7-year-old daughter from his lap and ran to take a look.
"I called from the window, 'Could you stop it?'" he said. He shouted down to the soldiers that he had keys and would let them in.
His words had no effect. In the end, by his count, the soldiers last week smashed 31 doors and 57 windows. More than that, Raheb recalled, the soldiers destroyed offices, ripped wiring from refrigerators and shot holes into sinks.
That kind of wanton destruction was not meant to keep Israeli citizens safe, said Raheb, a Palestinian theologian and author. The soldiers had, he contended, a different agenda altogether.
"I see hate and revenge, and it has nothing to do with security," he said Sunday.
Bethlehem is awash in destruction. Scores of cars, bombed out and shot up, litter the streets in every direction. Pharmacies have been wrecked, shops destroyed, offices turned upside down, windows smashed, water lines cut and a farmers market blown up with a force so powerful that bricks rained down several blocks away.
Israel claims its 10-day-old offensive is intended to break up the militant networks responsible for killings Israelis.
Residents of Bethlehem say that such indiscriminate devastation proves that the Israeli goal was not only safety, but retaliation -- not security, but revenge.
"We've never seen anything like that, not even in 1967," said Fouad, 54, who lived through the 1967 war. "This time it was horrible." He would not give his last name.
Israeli officials have a vastly different view. The takeover of Palestinian cities and towns in the West Bank came after a string of suicide bombings killed dozens of Israelis as they went about their daily routines -- and in the single worst attack that killed 26, as they celebrated the Passover ritual. Palestinian militants deliberately murdered civilians in pursuit of political ends, and Israeli officials said something had to be done to stop the carnage.
The Israeli campaign began March 29. The bombings, which had reached a crescendo of one a day, have stopped for the moment. There have been none since last Monday.
In Bethlehem, a standoff between Israeli forces and gunmen holed up in the Church of the Nativity continued for a sixth day. Through the night, Israeli soldiers using loudspeakers demanded that the gunmen surrender, the Associated Press reported, but they remained inside the church which marks the traditional birthplace of Jesus.
Journalists trying to reach the area on Sunday were turned back by Israeli soldiers.
Palestinians in Bethlehem contend that, despite Israel's claim to be rooting out militants, innocent people are being punished in a campaign of indiscriminate detentions and what amounts to a spree of vandalism, humiliation and group punishment.
Raheb, the pastor, said that when the church compound was stormed last Thursday, he was held for two hours and forced to endure racist abuse.
"Dirty Arabs, we are going to show you," one soldier snarled at him, he said.
He said another soldier asked him, "Why do you speak in Arabic? This is the most ugly language in the world."
Maher Abu Aker, a 24-year-old man who works in his father's repair shop, was detained Saturday at his home in the nearby village of Beit Jalla. He said Israeli soldiers tried to force him and about 35 other detainees to chant in unison profane things about Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat.
Aker said he was held for 24 hours. He was blindfolded and handcuffed the entire time, he said. The 35 detainees were forced to sleep on the cold cement floor of a room about 20 feet long and 20 feet wide, he said. An Israeli guard gave them blankets for warmth -- and then doused the blankets with water, making them unusable, he said.
On Sunday evening, several hours after his release, his wrists still bore the marks of the plastic manacles. He said he doesn't know where he will sleep. He called his home to check on his family, and a soldier answered.
"I was really humiliated," Aker said. "It wouldn't have felt as bad if I was a fighter." But his release proves, Aker said, that he was not.
Other Palestinians say they are suffering because they cannot leave their homes. Fouad, who lives in Beit Jalla, came to check on his 75-year-old mother last Monday and has been trapped in her house ever since.
Fouad said his mother, Souhaila Abu Hamame, has high blood pressure, breathing difficulties and fluid in the lungs, and she needs medicine. He has called the Red Crescent and the Red Cross repeatedly.
"They all said, 'We can't get there. It's a closed zone," he said.
Still, neither he nor his mother has set foot out of her apartment. The streets of Bethlehem are entirely empty, except for Israeli soldiers patrolling with automatic weapons and tanks.
Fouad and his mother have no electricity or running water. They are down to their last 10 eggs.
That's 10 days of food, Fouad's mother joked. "Every day, we split an egg."
There was no joking at the farmer's market a few blocks away. George Shahin, a machinist, said Israeli soldiers filled a number of cars with explosives on Saturday and detonated them simultaneously. Their blackened frames lie twisted in the remnants of the market. A fire generated by the explosion still smoldered a day later.
"They don't care what they destroy," Shahin said. "They destroy everything they see, everything that is Palestinian."
Raheb was born in Bethlehem, a town in which his family has lived for at least 1,000 years, and here the reverend will stay. Despite what he says was the humiliation, racism and vandalism he endured, he wants reconciliation.
"Without reconciliation, you will have what you are having now -- destruction," he said. "Unless we give justice to the Palestinians there will be no peace. And that cannot happen without reconciliation."
But if Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon really wanted security rather than revenge, Raheb believes he has failed in his aim.
"If he detained 50 suicide bombers," Raheb said, "he created 2,000."
April 5 2002
The Palestinian bell ringer for Bethlehem's Church of the Nativity was killed today on his way to the sacred site.
To Samir Ibrahim Salman, the traditional birthplace of Jesus was almost a second home. He was baptised at the basilica marking the site.
He served as caretaker at the church for more years than his friends could recall. He rang its bell daily, announcing worship services, weddings or funerals to the residents of this Palestinian town.
Salman, 45, died trying to get to his beloved Church of the Nativity early today, fatally shot while trying to cross the 90 metres from his house to the sanctuary.
The church, one of Christianity's holiest shrines, has been the scene of a standoff since Tuesday between Israeli troops and more than 200 armed Palestinians who an Israeli Defence Forces spokesman said, "are holding priests and nuns as hostages inside."
Hearing no gunfire, Salman had apparently decided the siege was over this morning, and hurried outside in hopes of catching the end of a regularly scheduled 6 a.m. service, said Pastor Johnny Shahwan, an acquaintance who lives in the neighbouring town of Beit Jala.
Salman was struck by multiple bullets in the chest and died instantly, said doctors at a Beit Jala hospital where he was taken.
Whether it was Israeli or Palestinian gunfire that claimed his life is uncertain, although hospital workers insisted it was the former.
Salman's remains lay wrapped in plastic next to that of four other Palestinians killed since the Israelis entered Bethlehem.
The morgue's refrigerator had no room left, doctors explained, so they placed the bodies in an empty hospital room, where two small fans straining on the highest setting circulated the air.
There would be no burials, at least for now, said hospital administrator Dr. Peter Qumri, a Bethlehem resident. Save for yesterday afternoon, the Israelis hadn't allowed ambulances to pick up the wounded, let alone allow people to bury their dead, he said.
A uniformed spokesman for the Israeli Defence Forces, who asked not to be named, said the IDF was "not at all" interested in preventing ambulances from retrieving wounded Palestinians.
"But we unfortunately have been victims of Red Crescent ambulances being used for terrorist and attempted terrorist attacks," he said. "That puts us in the position of having to check them," which means they arrive more slowly at their destinations.
The IDF spokesman said he had no information on Salman's case. He said, "We completely respect the sanctity of this church," he said.
Um, I thought the US was kind of upset with Osama because he had already tried to blow up the WTC once.
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
The FBI did have a legitimate national security interest in the Fischers. His mother lived and attended medical school in the Soviet Union. The KGB and GRU recruited agents from foreign students attending schools in the Soviet Union. His father fought against the fascists in the Spanish Civil War. That in itself isn't a problem, but it puts him in a group that was heavily infiltrated and influenced by the Communist Party and Soviet intelligence operations. The FBI didn't have the right to harass the Fischers, but I think they had a legitimate national security interest in investigating their activities to see if they were involved in espionage or other crimes. The CPUSA (Communist Party USA) was heavily involved in Soviet espionage operations.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I guess that's like losing a chess championship, and then yelling "Best two out of three! Best two out of three!".
The leadership of the U.S. has changed 8 times since 1970, when Nixon was in office.
If, in fact, this is his motivation, he's fighting against an administration that's been out of power for a quarter of a century, and whose leadership, even if he could legitimately blame them, is already dead.
Perhaps his time would be better spent elsewhere?
-- Terry
I agree... the label of anti-semite is overused, even when conceivably on-topic (as in confusing anti-Zionism or anti-Jewish-Supremicism with anti-semitism.) As used here it is at best a lame troll.
At worst it is an example of hate.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
the first WTC bombing was a diff group of religious zealots, not osama
"Maybe Castro is less easily upset"
Maybe not, I was told by a member of the CIA that Kennedy was killed in reaction to attempts on Castro's life.
Downloading While Chinese.
While I think the WTC attacks were totally fucked up, and that the people who did it are assholes, and should be killed; Its not as if they weren't provoked. Palestine and Israel have been fighting with each other for a long long time. We support Israel. Israel was created in 1948. We, the USA, and other allied powers / league of nations, put the israelis there, in palestine! Check up on some WW1, WW2 history. This and our continued support for israel is the reason for the WTC attacks, and for the turmoil in the middle east as I understand it. How long was palestine there before we decided to just make part of the country israel? Long long long before the USA was ever created. The first arab-israeli war was in 1948. 1948 they have been fighting for half a century. For some reason no one seems to have a perspective of the ammount of chaos and killing we helped to bring about in their part of the world. Israel and Palestine do the same shit to each other. But we label attacks by Palestine terrorism. BS. Both countries engage in it, we just support one of them.
Now, as for him hating the USA? How about this line of the story: He resurfaced in 1992 to beat Spassky again, in Yugoslavia. That got Fischer indicted: The Justice Department alleged he had violated U.N. sanctions imposed on Yugoslavia. If Fischer reenters the United States, prosecutors say, he faces arrest. Add that up with our FBI thinking his mother was a soviet spy, and I'd say they just wanted to fuck with the guy. We all think we're free until we do something the government doesn't want us to do. If I were him, I'd be pissed at the USA also. The USA is a great place to live, the best in the world. And I love the USA. But that doesn't mean we're always right, or that someone doesn't have a legit reason to hate our country/government. Unfortunately/sadly, in this democracy for the people by the people, the people aren't always the ones who are to blame for the wrong doings, but are usually the ones who pay the price. Its to bad we can't all just get along.
It's always nice to read an exciting stroy about a soviet spy! I guess we should get one of those 'learn to spell, 3yrs+' for both Cris and cmdr taco =).
a stupid theory. I'm curious to heard a valid argument.
After WWII, the Allies decided that because of the horrors the Jewish people had endured (not only at the hands of the Nazis, but throughout their history), Israel would be turned over to them.
Er...not exactly....
i think you'll find that jewish "terrorists" (Stern Gang et al) had to go around and murder a lot of off duty British Soldiers first....
Now I'm *sure* that the Americans could not possibly support this "terrorism".....
It takes too long to qualify your attacks when you have to accurately represent things. Understanding a complex world is hard. It is much easier to make ridiculous generalizations that support your preconceptions. You burn too many cycles trying to see what is really there, so prejudice serves as a sort of blurring filter on reality. You don't see the details, just the colours.
Hence, bigots are just being more efficient with their brains. Not more effective, mind. Just quicker to come to conclusions, and then stop thinking. Leaves more time to watch TV.
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
More GRRRR!
DROS - Open-Source Robot Software
Note for example that he is still being hounded for the sin of visiting Yugoslavia!
Bobby Fischer is a jerk and always was one, and his remark is typical. But I can see why he hates the American government.
As to "anti-semitic", its a word people like to throw around a lot. In this case it says more about the accuser than the accused. Even Arabs are often referred to as "anti-semitic"! I guess that's why they become suicide bombers... they hate themselves.
I bragged about my Karma at a job interview but I didn't get the job.
Except J Edger Hoover. They thought HE was straight...
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Oh bullshit. ... it was because God chose THIS land for them, and for some completely fucked up reason, this is good enough justification for the rest of the Western world. Fuck!.
The Jews want more and more and more of Palestine to be 'cleansed' of anything Palestinian so they can establish 'settlements' and claim more for themselves. The Palestinians are willing to settle for 15% of what used to be Palestine, but the incursions continue. Palestinians are denied the ability to travel freely in their own (the 15% bit) land. They are assaulted daily by the Jewish army (who use American weapons). The Jews do not want peace. Not the ones in control of the place anyway.
As for Ariel Sharon, he is one of the worst of them. I wouldn't trust that idiot as far as I could kick him. He fully backs the continual incursions. He gives direct orders to attack Palestinian schools, hospitals and cultural centres in the name of killing all the terrorists (sounds like a certain Bush).
And who the fuck gave the Jews the right to say whether Palestine can become a separate state or not? The Palestinians were there FIRST. It was they Jews / Americans who invaded. Why didn't America invite all Jews into their own borders? No, wait
I don't know about the most wanted list, but go check out our list of Terrorist Cells. A good portion of them are only on there because they are anti israel. You weren't around in the 1900's and neither was I. So you might be surprised to find out that we(with the league of nations) created israel for the jewish people around the 1920's. I think this is a moral argument, we assisted in transplanting these people into another country( palestine), and now they are at war over the land. Its pretty twisted... Israel and Palestine have been fighing for a long time, their first war was in 1948, about 50 years ago. And I'd say that we don't turn a blind eye to the atrocities against palestine, we just don't label it terrorism. Our support for israel is a very large part of the reason for the WTC + other attacks.
It's also on CNN
...was coordinated and funded by Al-Quada
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q =Stern+Gang
"The second reason is suicide bombing. The Israelis may commit military actions which are of dubious morality (at best), but they've never sent in suicide bombers, or taken actions with no strategic value whatsoever."
Isreal doesn't use suicide bombers. Why send suicide bombers when you can send armed helicopters? On the other hand, if you lack the helicopters and pretty much any other means of modern warfare, suicide bombers are cheap and reliable means of getting at your targets. There is nothing inherantly evil about suicide bombers.
It's probably the bad choice of targets of these suicide bombers, that you want to point out as one of the reasons for supporting Israel. Well, both sides are guilty there: when Israel sends its helicopters against a town that supposedly harbors terrorists, and fires missiles into their homes, innocent civilians die. These aren't precision military bombings as some would suggest. The town is chosen for harboring terrorists but the people wounded and killed in these raids are not picked off carefully. In my opinion that is just as bad as a suicide bombing.
". Between terrorist actions like the slaughter of the Israeli Olympic team and wars of agression from the First Arab-Israeli War onward, it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel."
I'd rather say that it makes it easy to dislike the Arab states and the Palestines; it hasn't changed my dislike for certain Israeli practices. Israel (their current government and a large part of their people) has the same problem that the Palestine terrorists have: they are fanatics; i.e. they are bent on achieving their goals by whatever means necessary.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
He agreed to the formation of a palestinian state? oh how nice of him, since the USA created that israeli state for him after WWII out of palestine. Both sides are wrong. Palestine( BC ) was around long before Israel(1920's or 1948, i'm not sure). Take a minute and try to figure out why that state next to them is at war with them. Throughout this thread, anything that says something negative about israel is labeled a troll or antisemetic. Maybe you've been brainwashed. Issues like these can't be discussed after reading an article. You need some info on the history. They are both terrorists, we just support one of them because we put them there after wwII.
Flag me as a troll, but I have the feeling that a lot of anger from 95% of the world towawrd USA is just because the good old USA are putting their "paw" in various country where they are not welcome or called for, but qwhere they have economics or political interrest.
Quote "Check your history, America isn't the worlds police. We don't go around saving everyone, it's their job to save themselves. We don't have to "give a shit", but if you would like us too then I suggest you give us a reason to "give a shit" by not strapping bombs to your chest and going kamakazi through grocery stores and bus stations."
Maybe you should give a shit by either dropping support for dictatorial or opressing regime, and TOTALLY retract from world interraction or TOTALLY use your power to correct all stuff with a bit of ethics. No an half way thru.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Wake up... if the Israelis were "aggressors" they could have killed every single non-jewish person in the Middle East. They have not. While guess what... the Palestinians are trying their darndest to kill every jew.
One country has tanks and f16s... the other does not. If Israel was an aggressor they could have finished it by now.
Its because they are forced to fight a defensive war that they can't win.
Not such a difficult concept is it?
Hmm, I know you're thinking if you somehow insult Bush, you'll get modded up. Nice one, AC.
I'd like to point out to you that the Jews had the land before the Palestinians did. The Romans came in and kicked them out in the diaspora. So I'd say the Jews were there first. Go read up on your history before posting liberal slandering bullshit.
And there is no cleansing going on. If there's cleansing, why is Israel full of Arabs who don't have a problem with the Israeli government? Doesn't make sense to me.
Almost!
Let's not forget the fact the jewish population in the US has a lot of political pull, as well as money. It would not be a politically viable to piss off this collection group; it could mean that you lose a lot of support.
I think you're leaving out a few major reasons why we support Israel:
1. The Religious Right.
2. Jewish pro-Israel PACs.
These two groups are a major reason why it is political suicide for a politician to take any position that could not be characterized as staunchly pro-Israel.
It is more a strategic rather than an economic benefit. Having a well armed and dependent ally in the middle east is useful to America.
> We support Israel because of the holocaust.
Partially true, but why not support Armenia too, Rawanda or whatever.
> The arab nations in the middle east attacked Israel repeatedly without provocation.... it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel.
Well, it is if you have a one sided viewpoint. Read Chomsky, I'm not saying he's right, but there are other sides to it http://www.zmag.org
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Okay, let's get some facts correct, first.
As you've said, you don't know when Israel was formed, as a nation. That was 1948, by the UN, not the 1920s.
You obviously don't know anything about Palestine, either. The Jews ruled that land before the Romans came in and expelled them. This is known as the diaspora. Israel was around long before Palestine, if you know anything about history. So if we go by who was there first, then it belongs to the Jews.
Conquering land is usually a legitimate claim to controlling it. We'd say the Romans had the right to control the land after expelling the Jews, and then the Palestinians had legitimate right to control the land. After Israel was formed in 1948, the surrounding nations attacked them in a series of wars. Each time, Israel fought off the incursions and took more land. They legitimately conquered it. It is their land.
So whether we go by who had it first or by a right to control the land after conquering it, the Jews and the nation of Israel have a legitimate claim to it.
Israel has been in the process of giving back land. The Sinai Peninsula was taken after one of the wars, but it was given back to Egypt. Israel is in the process of giving back more land, too.
I'd point out that the only reason this discussion is going on is because of a pro-Palestinian post farther up in this thread that right now is at +3, Insightful. So not everything has been modded down as a troll. That's just incorrect.
Go back under your bridge, troll.
Maybe not, I was told by a member of the CIA that Kennedy was killed in reaction to attempts on Castro's life.
This must rank amongst the daftest of the JFK theories. If any small nation had managed to kill a superpower leader don't you think they would have claimed responsibility and used David vs Goliath symbolism?
Yes, except that it isn't David vs. Goliath. Remember, in that story the little guy hit the big guy and killed him. In this it's more like the little guy poked out the big guy's eye, and should the big guy find out which little guy it was, he would've stomped him into eensy little bits.
Do you think Russia was so interested in supporting all communist countries they would've stood up for Cuba and faced the M.A.D. that would have resulted?
To be nuked into oblivion?
amen
http://home.att.ne.jp/moon/fischer/
To my dismay, I had only then learned that he had evolved into some "sweaty-toothed madman." What's interesting, however, is *how* he got that way. Well, first off, it seems clear that he suffers from some psychological problems (possibly schizophrenia), but his anti-semite beginnings seem to originate from Fischer being cheated out of his personal possessions. Apparently, according to the fax letters that can be found on his website above, he used a (jewish-owned) storage company to hold most of his US possessions when he left the country. His things were stored for many years until he finally asked for the lot to be shipped to him in Japan. When his items arrived, it seemed to him that half his stuff was missing. He told the company (politely) to please fax over documentation of his storage accounts there. The problem in this situation seemed to be that he had two accounts and one of them was changed to a different company with a different numbering scheme. Possibly that one got misplaced in the shuffle or was sold at auction without Fischer's knowledge. The faxes got more and more heated, but Fischer always maintained an air of civility. Finally the storage company just stopped writing to him. After reading the fax correspondence between Fischer and the storage company, it seems that Fischer had a legitimate beef with the company, but I imagine that since he was in Japan, he couldn't really do anything about it.
It doesn't end there, though. Apparently his sister died a while back and had some sort of trust fund put together. Fischer seemed to be owed about $300,000. However, the (again, apparently jewish) lawyers of his sister's estate pointed out (when it was time to collect) that a recent tax amendment forced them to hold on to the money until all but one member of the trust was left alive. It was only to be given out in cases of emergency. Once again, he feels violated, but this time his correspondence is less polite. His last fax ended with,
"You are a fuckin' Jew thief, Levinsky. Drop dead."
Now, I'm not sure if these two events were the reasons he decided that anti-semitism was the way to go, but they certainly don't help.
I'd also like to point out that even if the above stories are true, I believe it would only be an explanation rather than an excuse. I'm not condoning his actions and I certainly don't share his views - so please no flames.
We alienate the arab nations, which control half the world's oil supply, in order to support a nation that has no oil whatsoever.
So, I guess when Bush takes over Iraq (at the risk of millions of young men and women), he doesn't really want a country which has the second largest crude oil reserves in the world. If sympathy was the sole motive, then we would have been there for the Cambodians and Armenians.
but they've never sent in suicide bombers, or taken actions with no strategic value whatsoever
Uh, they don't need to. We give them all the weapons that they would ever want.
And don't tell me that Ariel Sharon in september 2000 was not not a suicide bomber. What he did was outrageous provocation. He was considered, and rightfully so (he was for a while even sued in Belgium, a country with a 'universal competence law' voted to try criminals against humanity outside of belgian territory), as a war criminal. I was going to make a nazi analogon, but you will invoke Godwin on me so I will do the same with one of your more personal friends. Suppose Ossama bin Laden were to make a pilgrimage to his now holy place, Ground Zero, NY, USA, accompanied with 1700 of his thugs with AK47s for protection of his peaceful pilgrimage. Assume further that the mayor of NY were to have no problems with the event, because 911 made him look good (Yeah, I know he resigned). Would you call the widows and orphans that violently protest terrorists ? This was a coup by the right wing to sink the negotiations (Yeah I know they didn't go too well) and gain control.
Don't you tell me that the guy who killed Rabin in 1995 was not a suicide bomber
Don't you dare saying me that the assassin that machine gunned the unarmed people in 199x in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron was not a suicide bomber.
The differences between these suicide bombers and Palestinian suicide bombers are that Israelis suicide bombers don't die because they are stronger, partly because of your American money.
That's my favorite Fischer quote. There was a long newspaper article about his sad wanderings after his glory faded and his mind wandered, that told how some wacko cult tried to recruit him, offering to introduce him to women. What kind of girl did he want? He replied with the quote above.
...bet you ain't go one of these here Paradigms nailed to your den wall though.
One of the fun things in grad school is that tv, if and when you watch, is in a room full of smart, noisy people heckling the screen. Kind of like those Mystery Science Theater movies.
The Fischer-Spassky chess matches were a zoo, with half of us shouting moves at the screen, and the other half groaning, hissing, etc. In the din, over a period of days, I noticed one guy, relatively quiet--but when he did say something, his guesses were usually right. I thought, "There is a smart and interesting guy."
Anyway, 30 years and two great nerdy kids later, I still think he's a super smart interesting guy, also gorgeous, and I remain grateful to Bobby Fischer for his role in this.
And it is easy to make generalizations if one is unknowledgeable about the history of Palestine. I think you should read this in order to understand the roots of the present Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Keep this in mind: In the beginning of the 20th century only one person in 10 living in Palestine is a Jew. Now it is exactly reversed.
Put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians: you have no american supplied F-16s, no Merkava tanks, no way of waging a Geneva Convention type war. How are you going to fight for your beliefs, your people and your history? Is it a wonder that the only way a desperate people can fight is through suicide bombings?
Please do not immediately label me an anti-semitic. I do not hate Jews, but I do deplore how the Israeli (and specially the Sharon) government's treatment of the Palestinian problem seems to mirror the way Hitler treated the Jewish problem. One has only to read Israeli newspapers to realize that many Israelis themselves are aware of these and actually criticize their own government.
I know many Jews here will agree with me. The problem with Israel is that it is not a nation of Israelis but a Jewish state. For as long as the Israeli government refuses to make itself into a truly representative, truly non-discriminatory nation it will continue to hold the entire world hostage to its ailment.
I'm going to stay out of the politics and take this time to discuss another aspect of Bobby Fisher's many methods of winning...
I read Bobby Fisher's book on chess as well as the NY Times account of his famous match against Spassky. He was brilliant. And devious. He totally psyched out Boris Spassky. According to my recollection, Spassky had the first move. But Fisher didn't show up right away. So Spassky made his move and then had to wait. And wait. And wait... A full half-hour later Fisher shows up and makes his move. The psychological impact of showing up half-hour late was worth losing the time on the clock.
In his rematch, he did something very similar. He argued and argued the terms of the rematch. He fought and fought and fought to get TV coverage and media and the location and and and... He got everything he requested...then when time began for the match to happen, the set up which was to his exacting demands was the very thing he complained about. The TV camera was killing his concentration. Move it back. No move it farther. No, out of the room altogether. Put it in the next room filming through the glass in the door!
Caveat, this is from my recollection of the events I read about, so I may have a detail or two off, but it's correct in the general outline...
Look down the list: Bobby Fisher, Bertoldt Brecht, the American Friends' Service Committee. They're all leftists. Are you people seriously trying to claim that it is not the role of the FBI to keep tabs on people who are fundamentally at war with the United States? Hello?! These files are relics of a nearly-forgotten time when the FBI defended this nation. The FBI you see through these files is not the degenerate radical group now laboring to abolish the sacred liberties for the sake of which our nation was founded.
Can any rational person doubt that the American Friends Service Committee is a radical leftist organization? The so-called "Society of Friends" (better known as the Quakers) have managed to disinform the American public to the point where most of us get them mixed up with the Amish (to whom they bear no resemblance, believe me), but that's just clever propaganda. Look at their web site. Follow the link above and see for yourself. They describe themselves as "committed to social justice". I think we all know enough about left-wing cant to recognize that as a committment to paternalistic big-government interventionism, a managed economy, affirmative action, gun-control, and all the other crap the left wants to chain us with. Not only that, but it looks like they're in pretty good with Iraq, huh? They're in pretty good with the UN, too.
The AFSC has been involved in more left-wing causes in the last century than any other known group, including the infamous Students for a Democratic Society -- another deviously misnamed radical left-wing cabal.
The Quakers pose as Christians, but they're not. They're a cult. They reject the Biblically-based doctrine of salvation by faith alone. I'm sorry, but if you reject a basic tenet of the Christian religion, you're not a Christian. I don't care if you accept the divinity of Christ and all that: It's all or nothing. Now, I'm not a Christian myself and I really don't care if they worship John Belushi, it's all the same to me -- but they are lying when they claim to be Christian, and lying is a problem for me. What are they trying to hide? It's clear enough from their web site.
As for the others, Brecht was a well-known, life-long German Socialist and a professional propagandist through the medium of his plays. He's a favorite of left-wing academics to this day, for that reason alone. His work is utterly worthless except as left-wing propaganda. None of his plays were produced in his lifetime, and none have been produced since except in left-wing drama departments of Eastern colleges. When he was alive, he languished in utter (and well-deserved) obscurity.
William Faulkner was a leftist as well. Throughout his whole life he was involved in liberal and "progressive" causes such as integrationism and Federal intervention in the domestic affairs of the States.
All of these people posed (and the AFSC still poses) a clear threat to the welfare of this nation. Had the FBI neglected to maintain files on them, that agency would have been sorely remiss.
None of this, of course, has any bearing on the rogue agency which the FBI has since become. Nowadays they have entirely given up their legal and moral obligation to monitor (and occasionally neutralize) threats to this nation. Instead, they spend their time harrassing and killing innocent, law-abiding citizens at Ruby Ridge and elsewhere. The FBI of today is not the FBI which kept a close eye on Bertolt Brecht. The FBI of today is itself a danger to this nation.
Times have changed.
I was going to make a nazi analogon, but you will invoke Godwin on me so I will do the same with one of your more personal friends. Suppose Ossama bin Laden...
Bahahaha! Thank you for making my morning!
"I am not going to let you invoke Godwin on me by bring up an over-used, emotionally provocative subject like Nazi's, so instead I'm going to bring up Bin Laden instead!"
The differences between these suicide bombers and Palestinian suicide bombers are that Israelis suicide bombers don't die because they are stronger, partly because of your American money.
The difference between Israeli soldiers and palastinian suicide bombers is that Palastinian (and many other Islamic radical militant) fighters are told by their leaders that by blowing themselves up in public, they will be sent directly to heaven where they will be given a harem of a thousand (or is it ten-thousand) virgins.
The vast majority of the Israeli military is made up by secular citizens (mostly Jews, some Arabs and Christians). In fact, most Israeli citizens are secular.
Further, decisions about giving strategic portions of land (the West Bank) to a militaristic group who is funded mostly by surrounding neighbours who have active delarations of war against them can make perfect sense without delving into religion and claims that 'God gave us this land'.
I can't claim to agree with the way the Israeli government has handled new settlements in disputed territories, but somehow claiming that being part of a settlement makes you a fair military target is outrageous. And suggesting that there is somehow a circumstance when walking into a public shopping area with no military presense in sight and blowing up yourself and a few dozen bystanders can somehow be justified?
Have I been trolled?
The leadership of the U.S. has changed 8 times since 1970, when Nixon was in office.
If, in fact, this is his motivation, he's fighting against an administration that's been out of power for a quarter of a century, and whose leadership, even if he could legitimately blame them, is already dead.
You honestly believe that the current administration is totally distinct to those of the past? Christ on a bike, Daddy Bush was head of the CIA, Cheney was Ford's assistant and Chief of Staff. Your current administration is chock-a-block with the same crooks and cronies as Bush Sr's 10 years ago, which was stuffed with Regan-era and earlier muppets. And now, to top it off, here comes Poindexter eager to set up his new Stasi. It's unbelievable.
... that they just gave this file to someone?
Yes, I fully support FOIA. But if the FBI had a file on ME, I'm not sure I would feel comfortable with them just handing it over to anyone because someone asked nicely through the mail.
For the Dem pols, supporting Israel produces money and votes from the strong Jewish blocs, esp in New York City and Hollywood. For many of those groups, Israel can never be too strong and secure... and can do no wrong.
For Republicans, the equation is different. They get little support from Jewish groups, but they do from Defense contractors... and much of the U.S. aid to Israel is used to buy military hardware from those same contractors. Dollars to Israel end up in their pockets, so they lobby for more aid.
So that's who benefits economically from supporting Israel.
Actually, a very good argument can be made that the Israeli government is a sort of suicide bomber. It does consistently take actions that increase the chances of its own people dying, for political reasons.
It is. And I think most americans misunderstand the situation so far as what palestinians target as well. Because Israel is a state that practices compulsory military service, when they target busses or nightclubs they are targetting military targets in a sense; the busses are primarily transportation for military personnel, and of course the nightclub patrons are in large majority military personnel, because they are of the age where that is compulsory. The argument is a double edged sword - the palestinians inflict civilian casualties - but the Israeli government uses those civilians as human shields, making it nearly impossible to attack military targets without inflicting civilian casualties. Both the US and Israel routinely inflict casualties on civilians and excuse it as 'collateral damage' - whatever validity that argument has (I am extremely skeptical of it) it has for the palestinians just as much as for others.
Disagreeing with the Israeli government is not anti-semitism, although there are all too many who will cheapen that word by slurring with it as if that were so. The Israeli government, and its overzealous defenders, in fact, are manufacturing anti-semitism with such misuse.
As a footnote to those readers who now think I'm anti-semitic, note that both of my links are to articles written by Jews whose forthright dedication to truth and justice I hold up as shining examples to be emulated by all people. The Jewish people are not identical to the Israeli government, either individually or collectively, and it's quite possible to criticise one without any prejudice towards the other. Take a minute, read the links, and think instead of reacting for once, please.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
A word means whatever general usage says it means. It's generally understood that the expression "ant-semitic" means "One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews." The etymology of the word may imply something else, but that's irrelevant.
--Larry
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence
slander is an awesome art form of the godless. and just why is an article about a chess player with unsubstantiated points of view (he is anti-something) and that he is a spy? What is the point? Aren't there just too many people who say that someone is anti-whatever? (whatever- fill in the blank). The person who put this story here is the real anti-whatever, because they present the whatevers as being people who are so petty as to call other people against them in an unsubstantiated way in a forum where it just doesn't matter. For too long too many selfish and greedy people of all kinds have used their own identity as a prop. They want all for themselves and they call anyone who they don't like an anti-whateverIAM. It is tiring and very immature. GROW UP. If Mr. Fisher is a hater of men, then he will face his Karma and have to deal with all of the bad consequences. You, poster of this unsubstantiated Slander should look at your self. What reason do you have to perpetuate the LIE that everyone who doesn't agree with you is against everyone of your ethnicity? Once again: look to yourself. Who are you against? Are you 'anti-whatever-you-are-not'. In that case you hate the whole world including most people in your own ethnicity, because they are mostly open-minded and truth loving, unlike you, poster of slander.
I think not. There is a HUGE difference between a witch-hunt and finding spies. Spies exist, and they are dangerous. The russians themselves said that Mccarthy was a bit overzealous, but not wrong. Spies need to be watched, that's the FBI's Job. You say that we railroad people, but it only seems that way because this is the only country that is free enough to allow these people to operate in the first place.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
I want to date you . . .
...didn't they think everyone was a Soviet spy back then?
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
Please note, I am not advocating either side. I am merely pointing out some additional facts and correcting some statements made.
How long was palestine there before we decided to just make part of the country israel?
Well, actually, at the time of the creation of Israel, that entire area was under British control. There was not a separate palestinian state.
The Israelis and the Palestinians have been fighting for almost 2000 years. The might have been using different labels (Hebrew, Jew, Arab, various tribal names), but they have been fighting amongst themselves (and over Jerusalem) for almost 2000 years. It is naive to state that the creation of the Israli state is the cause of the fighting.
Israel and Palestine do the same shit to each other. But we label attacks by Palestine terrorism. BS. Both countries engage in it, we just support one of them.
I agree. Neither side is in the right here. Both sides do despicable things. One could argue that Israel has used the holocaust and other anti-Jewish actions to gain sympathy in order that they not get punished as severely for their actions. I don't know if that last statement is accurate, but it is a possibility.
If I were him, I'd be pissed at the USA also.
I don't think that is the case. He broke the law by violating the sanctions (I am judging the sanctions btw), and so he must face the consequences. The FBI investigation seems to be excessive and unjustified, but I don't know much other than what was in the article.
I think his hate for the US mostly stems from his inflated view of himself. In his phone call to the radio station after 9/11 he states that he gave the US our recognition for intellectualism. Judging from what he said during the phone call, he feels like he has been screwed by the US because he wasn't glorified and made rich as a result of his World Champion status. There is more evidence for this in the comments made about what he would do if he won a world championship (last quote in the comment). I don't think he got what he wanted, and as a result, he feels bitter again the US because he thinks we owe him something.
neurostarThe attacks were based upon the fact that the US as a military base in the country that is considered most sacred. For a small number of radicals, a non-muslim nation (the US or any orther western country) having a military base there, is a problem to them (even though the reigning Saudia government has asked the US to be on their land). This was the reason why Sept 11 occured, the Palestine and Israeli conflict was never really even mentioned by AlQueda. When AlQueda realized that the US actually capable of taking out large chunks of their system, did they put support behind Palestine to bring in other Muslims that were not as offended by having a western military base in Saudi Arabia.
ha?
while i agree with you in the point that israelis don't commit suicide bombing (at least, not one that i recall)
saying that the USA doesn't influence arab countries is bullshit, look at:
1)Saudi Arab relations with the US
2)how the US financed Iraq in the Iran x Iraq war
3)how US rushed to "defend" Kwait, and is still there
besides that, saying that US helps Israel just because of a WWII allied decision?
US supports them because many jews live in the US and "demmand" that (no problem with these, since everybody has the right to ask the government to hear their positions) and also because it's a good investment (think high-tech here)
also, claimming that Israel never attacked others without provocation? man, you need some history lessons, check for conflicts with Lebanon, Egypt and Syria
disclaimer: i am in no way supporting terrorist attacks, nor the invasion of Kwait by Iraq
-- SouNerd.com
The only opinion-laden part of my statement was the phrase "work hard", and while there are certainly other ways to explain some of the observable consequences, many others can be explained by no other means.
Huh ? Your original post claims that what you identify as disproportionate success of Jews in business/academia/government is PRECISELY BECAUSE they "work hard". But this is - as you admit - an opinion, based on no fact that you or anyone else could produce, and is in its essence NO DIFFERENT than the proposition that Jews are successful because, say, "Jews control the media". (Note that I am not offering an opinions as to whether this latter proposition is true or not).
YOU believe that Jews are succesful because they work hard. Others believe that Jews have disproportionate control of the media and are using this to control perceptions of Jews. What makes one more plausible than the other ?
Once again, The Atlantic has a very good piece about this. In the 12/2002 issue, which arrived last Friday, there's a long piece detailing just how whacked-out Bobby Fischer is; look for it here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/12/
After reading it, I can see why the FBI kept an eye on him, just on general principles: he seems crzy as a bedbug. In addition to this, there's a fact that the article points out: "...[in 1992 Fisher played] Spassky again, in Yugoslavia. That got Fischer indicted: The Justice Department alleged he had violated U.N. sanctions imposed on Yugoslavia. If Fischer reenters the United States, prosecutors say, he faces arrest."
Bobby Fisher is one of the two greatest chess players who ever lived. The other one is also American, a bloke called Paul Morphy, who once had a couple of years on his hands, on account of Louisina not letting you practice Law till you are 21 (he went to Europe and pounded the shit out of the best they had. Then he came home and retired. Oh Cassia, why did you arrange things that he never played Lasker ?).
... intersting. Set the pieces up, and it's white to move, and lose in none.
l ia n
There are a bunch of Fischer stories. Some of them are even true.
There is the story about how he was playing in the leadup games to the World Championship, and he belted the Soviet grandmaster Taimanov six zip. Grandmasters dont lose six out of six with no draws, and to make sure that all the members of the Soviet Chess Federation understood this, Taimanov lost his job, the keys to his car, the keys to his flat and so on.
In the next round, Bobby then took on the Dane, Bent Larsen, who lost 6-0.
After the ex-World Champion Petrosian ("the Tiger") took half a point off Bobby in his first six matches, the Soviet Chess Federation gave Taimanov back his keys, his job and so on.
Fischer finally played Spassky in the World Championship in '72. Point for a win, half a point for a draw, first to twelve wins, and if it's 12-12, Spassky holds the belt.
Bobby blew the first game with a mistake that Fischer watchers called his worst move since age 12.
Game 2 was
You manage it by starting a major blue with the organisers, who reply "Mr Fisher is expected at the hall at 10AM. The clocks will start at that time". An hour and a half later, Bobby's clock runs out, and Boris Spassky leaves the hall.
A Yugoslav organiser once said "Bobby is easy to deal with. You ask him what he wants, write it down on a long list, and give it to him. Any time he comes up with something new, you point to the list, and say it isnt on it".
A English financier then drops a cold quarter-million on the table, and says "As there is no longer a question of money, Mr Fischer must be scared of losing to Mr Spassky".
Bobby, down 2-0 with first to 12, then cleans Boris Spassky's clock, to win the World Championship in a canter.
The Seventies goes on, and Bobby goes nuts, argues with the world chess body and loses his title. He makes certain rash statements, among those being that he would take on any woman in the world with the odds of a knight.
Come the nineties, he comes out of retirement for some friendly games with Boris Spassky (that get him into trouble with the IRS and various other TLAs, as Yugoslavia is under UN sanction at the time).
Judit Polgar, who is a chick who knows how to shove pieces around a board, then says "I've talked to my people, and we've got our million dollars".
Bobby then stays quiet.
Ian_Whitchurch@postmaster.co.uk.actually.austra
Look at any elite university in the country and you will probably find that Jews represent a greater proportion of the student population than they do of the population at large. Does this mean that "Jews are smarter than other people" or "all Jews are smart" or some other clearly fallacious bullshit? Of course not, that's crazy, as crazy as saying "all Blacks are thieves".
Maybe this is because Jews generally have more money than the average population while african americans tend to be poorer? "Elite" colleges are all about how much cash you have. Helps if you're not black too. Get charged and convicted of felony theft is all about how little money you have for a lawyer, oh ya, helps if you're black too.
nd of course, note that according to the definition of the word, noting positive accomplishments of certain groups is NOT prejudice, and if it consists primarily of facts rather than opinions, it is not a stereotype either.
So if i decide I'm only going to hire white people because they have so many great and well documented accomplishments then I am not prejudice?
You my friend are the worse kind of racist.
At least with the KKK and the zionists you know they are violent haters, but you don't even admit your racism to yourself.
Since you say if it is based on facts not opinions then it is true. So you can't deny then that most Israel men are trained killers who have participated in the occupation and suppression of the palestinian territories?
Poor brainwashed imp.
Of course support for Israel is about oil.
America didn't even support Israel until the 70s when the OPEC oil crisis loomed.
Israel has the second or third most powerful military in the world.
This means should any crazy shit go down in the middle east, like the arabs kicked out the exploitation aristocries created by the western powers Israels huge army will be waiting to roll and conquer the territory again.
The europeans where the ones who supported creating ISrael for the sake of the jews. That's why England gave them a chunk of it's stolen land to use for a "homeland".
After the occupation of the territories and massive human rights violations and murder of palestinians the europeans stopped supporting Israel.
After showing how capable they where of capturing arab land the americas however eagerly started to support them.
It's always about the oil, don't be naive.
mpe is, like the majority of people that post to this site, an arrogant fool...
;o
we're all gonna die soon...so have a good time while ya can....
Wen Ho Lee is far from an innocent party. He gave to his kids passwords to laboratory computer systems, downloaded classified material to an unsecure computer, copied the classified material to tapes and took the tapes from the lab supposedly to his home where he says he destroyed and disposed of them. He was less than truthful during the investigation. I think the gov't botched the investigation by making him out to be a spy but I don't feel he was treated too harshly. He was given a clearance, he knew the rules and he chose to disregard them. His claim that everyone does what he did is just not true.
Newton was a classic Victorian prude and mysogynist-- and probably a closet homosexual. He was quite proud of his 'virginity' and proclaimed upon his death bed that no woman had soiled him. (I need to look up the exact quote.)
After his landmark physics theories, Newton spent an unreasonable amount of time trying to use numerology to calculate the end of the world based on passages in the Bible. Despite his intelligence, he had many unreasonable fears hatreds.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
It's true that a great many chess grandmasters are not what you would call well adjusted, but it's interesting to note that the top players of the other contender for the world's top strategy game, Go, are generally psychologically healthy. The amount of study required is comparable. Maybe it's something about the game...
You're pretty obviously prejudiced. An unbiased thinking does not just look at crime statistics or graduation statistics and take them as established facts, all the while failing to consider alternative explanations for social injustices and inequalities. In particular, the idea of "institutional racism" does not inform your thinking. I see no evidence that you are prepared to have a serious discussion of the issues you've raised.
Fischer is the greatest chess player who ever lived, and several pegs above the likes of Kramnick and Kasparov. The idea that he's a Russian spy is absurd. Fischer hates the Russians. He accused them of conspiring to keep the chess champion a Russian. He said the games between Kramnick and Kasparov were pre-determined. He is certainly not a Russian spy.
The other ridiculous thing that the US gov't has done to Fischer is threatned to arrest him should he ever return to the US, because he played a chess tournament in a nation which was under "sanctions" by the US. Fischer tore up a letter from the US gov't demanding that he not play in that nation. He has the right to play chess where-ever the fuck he wants to. He shouldn't face punishment for carrying out his livelihood in a nation the US "doesn't approve of". He could play fucking Chess in Iraq and make millions for the Iraq government. That's his fucking right.
Yes, Fischer has some obnoxious views, and has said some cruel and hateful things about the Jews, and has said some outrageous things about 9/11. Again, that's his right. He has the right to say whatever the fuck he wants to. Quite frankly, I can understand him for hating the US. He is the only US citizen who has brought honor to the US in the chess arena -- the only American who's ever been anything in chess. And not only was/is he good, he was/is the best. The US government repaid him by threatening to arrest him because he played Chess in a "sanctioned nation". That doesn't mean its right to say that the 9,000 people who died at 9/11 deserved it, but he still has the right to say that.
As for his hatred of the Jews, though I'm not saying its good, he still has the right to hold whatever opinions he wants. Though it would make more sense if he hated Christians, as he was scammed by the "Worldwide Church of God". But from his perspective, he's been wronged by Jews. He's particularly enraged about all of the profiteering that has been going on around his name, while he hasn't received a dime. Movies like "Searching for Bobby Fischer" and biographies of him were made, yet he's received no compensation. In short, other people are making billions of dollars off of his name, and he attributes this mainly to the Jews. That doesn't justify hating all Jews, but its still his right to do so.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
If someone would send the Palestinians some tanks and helicopters or other politically correct weapons, I am sure they would gladly use those instead of suicide bombers.
There's also a big profile on Fischer in December's Atlantic Monthly:m
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/12/chun.ht
/.................../ \\
There is nothing inherantly evil about suicide bombers.
Some people believe that suicide is evil, and even more people believe that killing is evil. I have great compassion for people, even when they do stupid things like become suicide bombers--but please do not suggest that this is somehow a-okay or not a problem in the eyes of the Divine.
Non-Linux Penguins ?
You leave out the most important difference between Israel and the other Arab countries. It has nothing at all to do with religion. It has to do with democracy.
Israel is the ONLY country in the Mid-East where Muslim Arabs can CHOOSE their own representatives in an ELECTION (with the recent addition of Qatar).
That's right, Muslims can vote in Israel if they are citizens (there are 980,000 of them). There are Muslim members of the Knesset (do a google search for Ahmed Tibi, Abdel Wahab Darawshe, Hashem Mahmeed, Taleb a-Sana'a, or Abd el-Malek Dahamsha). They are virtually the only elected Muslims in the Middle East.
Egypt: Military dictatorship
Syria: Military dictatorship
"Palestine": Military dictatorship
Iraq: Military dictatorship
Libya: Military dictatorship
Jordan: Kingdom
Qatar: Emirate (with some representation)
Saudi Arabia: Kingdom
Iran: Theocratic dictatorship
United Arab Emirates: Emirate
Kuwait: Emirate
Sudan: Military dictatorship/state of war
Lebanon: Anarchy?
Some more undemocratic countries:
Mauritania
Morocco
Algeria
Tunisia
Somalia
Bahrain
Oman
Yemen
Djibouti
Israel: DEMOCRACY
People who think Israel doesn't have the right to exist is basically an anti-semite. If you know th e history of Israel's creation, then it pretty much makes no sense to critize it.
There is an earlier story about the suspicion that Regina Fischer was a Soviet spy. The title is Was Fischer's Mother a Communist Spy (pdf file) written by someone who knew Joan Fischer (Bobby's sister).
Ben Kingsley is an actor who says lines written by other people. In the case of Searching for Bobby Fischer, the book was written by Fred Waitzkin and the screenplay by Steven Zallion.
Attributing movie dialogue to the actors who say them is like giving Ellen Feiss credit for writing OS X. Please give credit where it's due.
Stalin was deeply involved in the Spanish Civil War. He provided the Republicans with substantial quantities of arms, military advisors and "volunteers". He also exported his paranoia and the purges to Spain. The PCE (Communist Party of Spain) often seemed more interested in fighting its perceived enemies in the Republicans than it did in fighting the Nationalists.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
...and there were people in Palestine before the Jews were there. Read the Old Testament of the bible for tons of stories about how the Jews killed tribe after tribe, nation after nation. The bible says that they are god's people, and that is why god leads them to victories over so many nations.
The argument that it is the Jewish homeland is a fascist argument. The rule of thumb is that there was always some race their before yours.
> How do you explain the large 'donations' to EACH political party in the run-up to each US election?
Proof, you goddamn puppet.
> And why does America sell so many 'weapons of mass destruction' to Israel
Do you even know what the fuck a WMD is, jackass? Or don't they teach that at your Chomsky circle jerks? You fucking fucktard. Guess what, if the balloon goes up in the middle east, the arab nations are going to find out exactly what a WMD is when their major cities are turned into radioactive slag.
> and not to the Palestinians - the ones who are protecting their land from the invading Jews
Ahh hear we go, the evil jews again, would you at least pretend and call them Israelies (here is a clue tick-turd, not all Israelies are Jews). We don't have to give them weapons, that's is what hate-mongering islamic charities and the Saudia Arabian government is for. They provide ample funds to the palestinians so that they can blow up a pool hall filled with teenagers and markets full of old women.
>the invasion of Palestine and the crushing of anyone who opposes them, America is right behind them because if they were not, the next election campaign budget would be severly in the red.
Umm no, the American government has on multiple occasions publicly rebuked the Israeli government for its handling of the current crisis. That being said, guess what Israel is its own country, it can do whatever the hell it wants too. It is a tribute to their commitment to the friendship between our two countries that they listen to us at all. Name one other country that has the kind of influence we do? Even with that, Israel is its own country and will do what ever it feels is neccessary to secure its existence.
> the same way they are turning a blind eye to the Nike (and other) sweat-shops around the world
Aren't these "sweat-shops" in countries? Don't these countries have governments? Hey ass-face if a country is unwilling to protect its own people from expoitation by the evil white man it isn't the problem of the US government.
> Next time you hear of a terrorist attack, stop and ask yourself "Why?"
Tell that to the Aficans killed at the embassy bombings, the Indonesians and Australians (I know those evil 'roos are out to destroy the world) at Bali, the non-Americans killed at the WTC (more non-Americans died, then Americans). Here is a fucking answer and a wake up call: because clueless children living in white bread suburbia who are angry about their own priviledge, such as your self, make excuses for mindless hate.
Do I fully support Israel? Their right to exist yes. However, I do not support their use of either extra-judicial assassinations or the high explosives they use to carry them out. However, until the Palestinian people condem in a loud, united, and unequivical voice, the homicide bombers who claim to act on their behalf and reject the blood money from the Arab world and declare that Israel has a right to exist, I have little sympathy for them.
Think the palestinians have it bad now? With the change of government it is going to be whole lot worse. They have no one but themselves to blame.
Kill Whitey!!! Kill the Jooooooossss!!! Not just a slogan, a way of life on slashdot.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
In the Southeast U.S., I speak to a lot of Christians who support Israel because they believe:
These beliefs have had dramatic long-term effects on US foreign policy, and they probably play a continuing role in how the U.S. sees Israel.
Personally, I would like to understand these things better; I've concluded that a lot of the stuff I was raised to believe is somewhat careless myth, but I don't want to err on the "America is totally evil" side either. Objectivitity is hard to come by... history seems to be a mix of motives and economics of varying degrees of integrity and naievety.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
You guys can't even spell Philadelphia. Christ, what a bunch of dolts you are.
No more so or less so than any other human being. We all see things through the lens of our culture and upbringing. However, I consider myself first and foremost a scientist and logical thinker. I make mistakes, and I am always interested in having my mistakes pointed out to me by those who refrain from ad hominem attacks and blatant racism.
n unbiased thinking does not just look at crime statistics or graduation statistics and take them as established facts, all the while failing to consider alternative explanations for social injustices and inequalities.
Huh? You did not read my post properly, or perhaps I wasn't clear enough about my meaning. The point is that the facts are not under dispute. The explanation IS open to dispute. In fact, I agree with you here that the crime statistics and graduation statistics I referenced ARE due to social circumstances. I don't know about focusing on "injustices and inequalities" since that seems like a rather negative and narrow framework to view it in, but I certainly never argued that any of these differences were due to anything other than social circumstance. In the case of Jewish culture, a value and ethic is placed on academic performance and achievement. This is a qualitative observation I have made, based on my own life history, in which I have lived in many communities, some which were dominated by a variety of minorities (mostly black, in Lauderdale Lakes, FL), some of which were mostly white, and some of which (in New York City) were largely Jewish.
In particular, the idea of "institutional racism" does not inform your thinking. I see no evidence that you are prepared to have a serious discussion of the issues you've raised.
I am aware of the concept of "institutional racism". I agree that it can explain some of the problems certain minority groups have. It can certainly not explain some of the successes certain minority groups have had. Internal cultural differences can explain both, but certainly some of those cultural differences have been created by years and centuries of "institutional racism". In the case of Jews, I think the cultural differences have been created by social forces on Ashkenazi Jews in Europe over the centuries that favored the cultivation of intellectual skills - there have been several studies that have used this explanation to explain observed IQ differences. Not to say that this is "the truth", but it is a possible explanation. Likewise, cultural evolution of American Black culture has certainly resulted from insitutional racism over the years, though I think more of the problems African Americans have today are due to these entrenched cultural differences than due to _current_ institutional racism, that likely plays a part too.
In the future, you should consider taking a less hostile position with somebody who fundamentally agrees with your point of view. And don't post AC. It undermines your credibility.
Just a clarification: it ain't Fischer's FILE that's been released. It's his dear ol' Mommy's.
Under existing FOIA regulations you can't get the file on a living individual unless they personally sign a consent form. The article specifically mentions it being his MOTHER'S. Cuz she dead, baby.
Maybe this is because Jews generally have more money than the average population while african americans tend to be poorer? "Elite" colleges are all about how much cash you have. Helps if you're not black too. Get charged and convicted of felony theft is all about how little money you have for a lawyer, oh ya, helps if you're black too.
Okay, how did Jews get all that money then? When most Jews immigrated to this country they were poor, just like the Irish and the Italians. Actually, all of these groups have been quite successful economically in this country.
I cannot deny that economic success increases the odds of academic success by providing time to spend in academic pursuits. However, before the Jewish community in the US was well off at all, academics were still heavily emphasized. Some of the great Jewish academics of this century came out of CCNY in New York, and were from poor or middle class families in Brooklyn and Queens. I don't have statistics to back this up, but simple qualitative observation rejects your assertion that academic success is tied only to economic status.
Furthermore, I would encourage you to look at the inside of an elite college sometime. There are certainly people there because they have money, but they are usually the minority (maybe 15-20% of the school's population). At Harvard, where I went, over 60% of the undergraduate students received financial aid.
So if i decide I'm only going to hire white people because they have so many great and well documented accomplishments then I am not prejudice?
No, if you judge an individual based on statistical trends among groups without any particular analysis of causation you are an idiot. It is not prejudiced to note that white people have had many great accomplishments. Of course, much of that (in the US) has to do with the fact that over the years this has been a white culture, a country founded by white people, with institutions and organizations founded by white people. The implicit assumption you would be making in refusing to hire non-whites is that non-whites must not be as competent for a job regardless of individual merit, or that they all have non-desireable characteristics based on ethnicity. Those are prejudiced assumptions, very different from factual observations.
Since you say if it is based on facts not opinions then it is true. So you can't deny then that most Israel men are trained killers who have participated in the occupation and suppression of the palestinian territories?
I agree that many Israeli men have been trained by the military. That military training is not that different from the military training every male receives in any country with mandatory military service. If that makes them "trained killers" then so is anybody who has done military service. Most who served in the Israeli military never fired a gun during their service, and certainly most have not killed any Palestinians.
I never said I agreed with the occupation of Palestinian territories nor with the "settlements" or the religious zealots who live in them (who, noteably, make up less than 1% of the population of Israel). I support a peaceful two state solution in Israel and the Palestinian territories, as do the majority of American Jews.
It doesn't say that Fischer or his mother were spies. It says that Fischer's mother was suspected of spying, ergo Fischer must be...Q.E.D. Or so the drones that worked for the FBI thought.
Israel defines: "'Jew' means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
:-)
In that case, it would require an unbroken chain of atheist descendants (i.e. not members of another religion) from a Jewish mother n generations up the line (where n is only limited by how old you believe the human race to be and practical breeding concerns).
Anyway, this is kind of missing the point. What the original poster said implied that most people in the world could be classified as `Jewish'; what you said implies that they can't.
OTOH, it all depends how that definition is parsed anyway. I think it might mean the same as the original poster said, but that's unlikely, and I have work to do.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
So your claim is that Al Quaeda waited for a Republican Administration, before they decided that they didn't like the U.S., right?
-- Terry
You are an idiot.
I worked in the same IBM facility as one of his kids; their cubicle was 20 feet away from mine. We all followed the case very closely, and we were pretty uniformly outraged; and being an engineering department, we did not simply adopt the outrage of the family blindly, we looked at the information for ourselves, rather than operating on hearsay.
Are you maybe that FBI dufus who perjured himself on the stand, and then later retracted his testimony, which anyone can see by examining the public records of the court proceedings?
If so, your behaviour really reflects poorly on your organization.
-- Terry
Go read about the PLO's "Phased Plan" and learn something new...
Please explain the 1993 WTC bombing - before Bin Dipshit had reasons for "revenge".
Obviously, CmdrTaco is the anonymous reader who wrote the "stroy" ("Philidelphia" was a nice one, too)... ;)
"well-adjusted socialite"
Heh.
But citizenship is determined by blood lineage and religion. Can that truly be described as a Democracy?
Negros in San Francisco, that's a good one.
As a game player........ Sure the US Military is interested...
Any idea brought forth in an open society is exposed to criticism. If I claim to be able to make psychic predications, it should come as no suprise that many people will seek to prove otherwise, or just outright laugh at me. If I want to make a statement that I believe blue shirts cause violence, people are going to want to see statistics and evidence, right? No rational person would believe such things without evidence. It is up to you, the reader, to study the facts and decide for yourself what is true and what is false. This is your right. You don't have to believe things that are obviously false, no matter what people in power tell you.
Fortunately we have the freedom to criticize many ideas today. Almost no idea is censored in modern western countries. The few extreme elements of society like drug-users, pedophiles, and homosexuals are each day considered more and more mainstream, and many of their ideas are becoming the "norm." But while countries work to legalize things like prostitution and drug usage, at the same time they make stricter and stricter laws against so-called "hate speech."
Why? Why is information about White Pride censored when virtually anything else is published openly? Why can any idea be exposed to criticism except when it has to do with race?
The fact is Jews, liberals, and people in power know exactly what the message of White pride means and how powerful it is. Unlike their attempts at social engineering, our message is based on fact and reason. This is what makes it dangerous to them. It doesn't matter how much propaganda about "equality," "reparations," and "diversity" they hammer us with. When people see the evidence, and evaluate the facts for themselves, they will come to the same conclusions that other informed White people have. No amount of Jewish lies will stop the truth. They know this and fear it. This is why they try to suppress us.
So what should you do about this? Open your mind, and visit White Pride web sites like the National Alliance, White Civil Rights, and Stormfront. Get a copy of David Duke's My Awakening. Read what they have to say and make your own conclusions -- does what they say agree with the evidence available? Have your own experiences verified what they are saying? No one is going to tell you what to think, because it is up to you to make your own decisions.
Try asking yourself questions like:
- Why do we send billions of dollars of "aid" and weaponry to Israel every year?
- Why do non-whites commit far more crimes than whites even after all these years of affirmative action and welfare handouts?
- Are racial quotas in the workplace fair?
- Why are we told there are no differences between blacks and whites when we can clearly see the physical differences in their bodies?
- Why is Africa still in the stone age?
- Why is illegal immigration accepted and encouraged in the USA?
- Why is news about the Israeli spy ring caught in the USA only reported in foreign newspapers?
- Why is the government afraid to report the truth about the Anthrax letters?
- Why is the government continually increasing its control over our lives?
- Why is our media so dedicated to corrupting our children's morals?
- Why does the number of people killed in the Jewish holocaust keep changing?
- Why has the Wichita massacre gone unreported?
- And so on....
The truth will not be stopped!Israel, what's Israel? Oh, you're talking about the occupied state of Palestine.
I have a feeling I agree with what you're saying, but not what you think.
The critical distinction for free speech is between speech as an extension of though vs speech as the result of thinking. You should be allowed to say "Jews suck" if that's what you think, (or you can say you hate me, all Canadians, white people, non-jews) as we should never limit your ability to think. However, speaking can also be an action, and just as we limit your ability to call people and threaten their lives, it's wrong to incite people with "Let's go kill some Jews".
The system is supposed to work because an abundance of information causes statements like "the Jews drink baby blood" to look stupid. The cheif problem arises when people confuse you stating your (if not great, at least truthful) opinion that you don't like jews with you actively hindering them.
I'll be the first to admit that even after 200 years we're still ironing out the details though.
My list of multiplayer
If nothing else, this shows that they're doing at least a little better than the Nazis. I think they were less than eager to tolerate dissent.
My list of multiplayer
Dude... almost all men who are anti-women are heterosexuals... gays love their fag-hags, dig?
Another good example of this is the korean culture.
Koreans also know how to work hard. You'll find plenty of chinese or eastern europeans and koreans that all arrived in the US at the same time. 5 years later, you'll find that many of the koreans are driving mercedes/bmw's and own their own businesses.
Its actually quite funny, but I was taking a cab ride in Ft Lee NJ, a town directly over the bridge from New York City. The cab driver, a mildy average cocky american in his 60's was telling me how the Jews really made Ft Lee their town in time past. Now, it happened to be a big Korean area.
This dumbfuck of a cab driver expected me to be angry at both cultures which had inhabited this area at one point.
Sorry, but I also happen to be a hardworking american that understands the value of good hard and intelligent work.
And aside from jews and koreans I know plenty of muslims,mexicans,canadians, english, christians, immigrants and non-immigrants who do well for themselves. Jews don't rule the country, americans do. And america was never white.
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Help my mini cause: My journal
You honestly believe that slaves were never beaten, that they had a good life in bondage? Speak with any scholar of African-American history and they will certainly disagree with you.
Slaves WERE traded widely. Many plantations in Virginia, where cotton does not grow well, bred slaves expressly for sale to the Deep South. There are countless primary sources detailing the beating and lashing inflicted on slaves in all regions.
Any wages they received from being hired out were property of their master. Slaves, especially rural slaves, were fed poorly and "healthcare" is a joke. If they could walk they could work. Finally, if slavery was so great, WHY DID THEY RUN AWAY? Your statements are a tired old argument for slavery apologists.
Don't believe me? Read anything by Frederick Douglass, or 'African American Voices' by Stephen Mintz, a collection of primary works on slavery in America.
They are different crooks than they were 32 years ago, and they are crooks from the opposition party of the crooks who were in power 4 years ago.
If Fischer is justified in U.S.-bashing as if he were mad from syphilis contracted from a chess groupie, he ought to at least bash the right crooks.
NB: your "Bush was head of the CIA" argument is really bogus: that was George Bush Sr., not George Bush Jr.
-- Terry
Well he was killed that is for sure huh?
Sometimes when you achieve your goal it isn't wise to blab about it. It's about saving face on the one hand. Also I'm sure there wasn't concrete proof anyway.
One man acting alone could easily be called just as stupid a theory. If it wasn't the prevailing one already.
Ever wonder why we still have sanctions on Cuba for so long? We are fairly friendly with Russia and China now, and Cuba is a flea, but it's illegal for our citizens to even visit. Hrm...
Anyway it was just something I was told, makes sense to me though
That's a sweet story. >^..^
The article specifically states that the FBI's conclusion was that Bobby and his mother were NOT spies. The Slashdot blurb is wrong, and possibly libelous.
Well, give him an F+ for effort.
all these comments seem to be adding things to my argument that aren't in it, alls i was saying is that i don't think there is anything wrong with lambasting someone who says killing millions of people is a sham, regardless of what other killings, slaughterings, holocausts, slips of banana peels are wrong, right, silly, interesting blah blah blah, saying the holocaust is a sham is WRONG in my opinion. This doesn't mean i support what the israelis are doing now, in fact i think both the israelis AND palestinians who are attacking and killing one another are wasting there lives for no good cause. Now lambast me on this, because now certainly i think that in 1942 when king blah blah fought off the turkish mob that was overtaking the mahi mahi chicken sauce.....COME ON!
http://www.vanillaafro.com - take me seriously and I will shoot you
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/ 20021117/ap_on_re_us/fbi_bobby_fischer_1
It is not quite as extensive as the link posted with the thread but it gives a quick synopsis of the story. If you want more details I suggest reading the other article.
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You just used the term "ethnic cleansing" unironically. Please never do that again. To do so is to merrily incorporate into your vocabulary the claim that certain ethnicities are dirt and their members should be removed by any means necessary. The widespread adoption of this term by people who should know better is disgusting.
Ever since prehistoric times, wise men have tried to understand what, ..."
exactly, make people laugh. That's why they were called "wise men." All the
other prehistoric people were out puncturing each other with spears, and the
wise men were back in the cave saying: "How about: Would you please take my
wife? No. How about: Here is my wife, please take her right now. No How
about: Would you like to take something? My wife is available. No. How
about
-- Dave Barry, "Why Humor is Funny"
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