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Bobby Fischer FBI Files Released Under FOIA
An anonymous reader writes: "Philidelphia Inquirer has a stroy detailing the results of a FOIA request for chess great Bobby Fischer." Turns out they thought the anti-semitic chess grandmaster(and his mother) was a soviet spy.
What's a "stroy"?
-D
I hope they don't release my FBI file about me watching TV and on the computer all day.
Free Instant Site Inclusion
Have they finally confirmed that he's playing on the internet? :)
I wonder how hard it was for her to draw child support because she was a thought of soviet supporter?
I think Laurence Fishburn needs to pull the non-existant spoon out of the ass of the FBI
Just in case anyone was wondering whether the FBI were getting this guy all wrong here's Bobby Fischer's radio call-in on 9/11 applauding the terrorists [mp3] [Newspaper report on Bobby Fischer's 9/11 radio call].
--Giving to trolls for the benefit of us all
> that chinese dude
Who? Are you talking about Wen-ho Li? The guy from LANL? That guy was railroaded by the Justice and Energy depts. They basically ruined the guy because he [allegedly] mishandled information on obselete data that although officially classified, was known by everyone anyway. And the guy was in prison for a year before his case was dropped. That's right. The charges were dismissed. So obviously he's a pretty big spy if his case is thrown out. Or you could be talking about someone else... at least I hope so...
Andy
Yes, you caught us. America is a military dictatorship. You found us out. Our military state is run by those pesky Jews, who go around making up things like the Holocaust, and running Hollywood, and exterminating the Palestinians, and running the FBI and the CIA and all the black ops agencies I can't tell you about because the Zionist Conspiracy told me not to.
You and the nutty, paranoid anti-semites like yourself should grow up and grow a sack. Jews are people like any other people, some are violent and hawkish, some are pacifist doves, some are in between. Many are selfish, many are selfless. Some are brilliant, some are morons, most are just somewhat above average (typical for those from a culture that values learning and intellectual accomplishment).
Why do Jews have a lot of influence in America? Because Jews work hard and achieve success in academia, business and other areas at a higher rate than the rest of the population. Some other ethnic groups have achieved similar sorts of success in America. Do Jews control the US? Give me a break. That's as likely as your implicit claim that all those Palestinians are entirely innocent and are just getting slaughtered like hogs. Granted, lots of innocent blood has been shed on both sides (no, telling me that 4 times as many Palestinians have died doesn't make a fuck bit of a difference to me as in no way makes for a moral argument) in Israel and the occupied territories, but implying that somebody is turning a blind eye to some mysterious atrocities is ridiculous.
they didn't let that "chinese dude" go. they jailed him the harassed him because fucktards like you thought that just because he is of Chinese heritage he must be spying for the Chinease.
Also, the judge in the case, as well as then president clinton, apologised for his treatment.
No kidding.
As an American citizen I am totally disgusted with our double-standards regarding the Jews / Arabs. The Jews' 'mission from God' to reclaim the land of their legends no matter what the cost to the people who actually live there now must be ended in the name of humanity, but I doubt that America will make a move to right the wrongs unless they come under intense terrorist attack - which unfortunately is quite likely so we will see.
You would be surprised at how many Americans are willing to sweep the issue under the carpet because the current situation works out well for the US economically.
what does him being anti-semetic have to do with anything?
I mean if he hated asians, they wouldn't write him as an "ANTI-ASIAN chess grandmaster"
How come when someone is an anti-semite it has to be painted all over them throughout the article.
GoatPigSheep, the 3 most important food groups
How did that dude get so fucked up.
For someone who is capable of such incredible reasoning you would think he would turn out much different than a southern white trash redneck.
I'm not totally informed on all of the details but when I hear him say "dirty jew" and other nasty things about the Israelis I just wanna slap him and say "WTF happened to you?!?!"
under the "Quickies" topic?
I miss quickies!
Wen Ho Lee was not a spy. He was railroaded for political reasons, and released with a presidential apology, after those reasons were no longer important.
I find that it's frquently the case that naturalized citizens are more profoundly loyal to their country than those born to citizenship.
If you are going to post something stupid, at least do us the courtesy of making it appear factual.
-- Terry
"Bobby Fischer got underneath it like no one before and found at its center, art. I spent my life trying to play like him. Most of these guys have. But we're like forgers. We're competent fakes. His successor wasn't here tonight. He wasn't here. He is asleep in his room in your house. Your son creates like Fischer. He sees like him, inside."
And in the words of Homeless Fishburne, "COME ON GRANDMASTER.. All right, CHECK to his majesty, no, no, no, no, check yourself before you wreck yourself, you can't have it, HELLO! That's right, run, run, somebody call the police, this man is loitering!"
Since when has hate ever been "right"? When has hate ever solved anything?
That was the most pathetic rationalization I have ever heard promoting hate.
Fischer's anti-semitism and his apparent approval of the attack on the World Trade Center might make him an asshole, but it doesn't make him a terrorist, and it certainly doesn't retroactively make him a Soviet spy in the 1970's or vindicate any of the FBI's suspicions.
As explained in the article, the FBI had a long-running investigation of Fischer and his mother back in the 70's and earlier. It's just another illustration that the US govt has been spying on its own citizens for decades, long before there was any sort of terrorist rationalization.
I concur. They are making it seem like a crime to hold a certain attitude towards a certain population, the jewish people.
... even if unsubstantiated. With freedom of speech, people will be able to distinguish truth from falsity. When restrictions are placed and a portion of the population is given special untouchable-from-criticism status, the people are not given this opportunity to guage truth from falsehood and suspicion and corruption of truth will brew even more so.
Case in point. John McCain has more than once voiced his anti-Vietnamese attitude. You don't see the press calling him the Anti-Vietnamese Senater.
Of course if Joe Smoe says anything negative about jewish people, IMMEDIATELY everyone (like a reflex action) labels him an antismetic and it's like he is a pedophile and they discount everything that he says, even the truthful elements.
I find this behavior troubling because: 1. it creates restriction on freedom of speech and thought for the general population. 2. It creates white/non-jewish backlash against minority groups.
Both of these troubling, growing situations can be prevented by BEING FAIR and not trying to make the jewish population untouchable from public comments, even if the comments happen to be negative
Of course, I'm sure I will be labeled anti-semetic after this post by the ignorant and by pro-censors. But, please think about it. I'm advocating freedom of speech, an essential pillar of our democratic society that is being chiseled away at for the past decade or so.
"long before there was any sort of terrorist rationalization. "
Actually terrorism has been around in the mainstream American sense, since the 1950's, which is why Kennedy formed the U.S. Navy SEAL's in 1962. Their aim was specifically targeted at terrorism, Yasser Arafat in particular.
We have just become complacent because since the mid 80's the American media has been more focused on what happens within our borders rather than outside them. This is what 911 changed, the American medias focus, and in affect ours.
Its been going on for a long time.
1. A conventional, formulaic, and oversimplified conception, opinion, or image.
Actually, I don't think that word applies here. It's not a stereotype, because it's not an opinion or an image. It's just a statement of fact. Look at any elite university in the country and you will probably find that Jews represent a greater proportion of the student population than they do of the population at large. Does this mean that "Jews are smarter than other people" or "all Jews are smart" or some other clearly fallacious bullshit? Of course not, that's crazy, as crazy as saying "all Blacks are thieves". Do more Black people, proportionally, commit certain kinds of crimes than White people? Yes - statement of fact, you can back it up by pretty solid statistics.
Prejudice is "an adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts." according to the American Heritage dictionary. I don't believe that observing cultural behavior patterns among certain ethnic groups and their statistically verifiable results amounts to prejudice. Saying that "Jews are dirty cheats" or "Asians are passive little math nerds" or "all Blacks are thieves" are all fundamentally opinion-laden, overly broad statements that are not verifiable (the first or second) or just plain not true (the third). The only opinion-laden part of my statement was the phrase "work hard", and while there are certainly other ways to explain some of the observable consequences, many others can be explained by no other means.
If you want facts and figures and so forth, go to Google, I am sure you can find some. And of course, note that according to the definition of the word, noting positive accomplishments of certain groups is NOT prejudice, and if it consists primarily of facts rather than opinions, it is not a stereotype either.
Bobby Fischer's wild paranoid anti-semitic rants really make him come across as a total asshole.
Some time after he was locked out of the USA by the state department, he would go onto foreign radio shows and say the most outrageous things.
In his own opinion, he did more for the image of the US during the cold war than any other individual. Indeed.
And they fucked his family and him over. Instead of respect he got suspicion and hounding.
So perhaps in his own opinion, he can do more to damage the image of the USA by spouting off. Retracting and degrading everything he did for the US image.
Trying to take back what he gave them.
IIRC, Fischer was never publicly anti-Semitic (or very political at that) until some time after he retired. The FBI was tracking him for other reasons.
Pure hate spews out of this guys mouth. Listen to the audio MP3. Unreal.
One of his final gems: "The Jews made up the Holocaust". How nice, and a pure lie. What a horrible thing to say, from any angle, whatever his past was like. This guy is in the same league as the Timothy Mcveighs of the world. NUTS.
Either you mean what you say or not. This has nothing to do with PCness. This guy is insane and filled with rage. We need less of those people around.
Violent talks just lead to violent acts. USA doesn't need someone like him. They've got enough of those to deal with already
The reason people don't bitch at John McCain about hating Vietnamese is that they kept him in a prison camp for 4 years. They probably killed friends of his.
Never mind that we were over there in their country.
Still though. If anyone keeps me in a cage in the jungle for 4 years? Fuck you.
For most American's, Jews are still that weak ethnic group that we let get killed back 50 years ago. We're still saving them today (if the US cut off the aid, Israel would be gone within a decade).
If we had an Arab sentaor who'd had a Jewish bullet in his ass, I don't think we'd complain that he hated the Jews.
someone should tell the FBI that grandmaster!=godfather ;)
|/________
|\A|ALYS|
The Article talked about how it was hard for her to hold a job
And even more so it talked about how the FBI tracked their every move, often mishandling infomation because of assumptions that were not looked into further.
So I'd like to know just why I'm flamebait for a question that was quite honest, I have had my fair share of problems with child support
Is it near Philadelphia?
i find it interesting that the article chooses to talk about how he has voiced these anti-semetic and anti-american ideas, but then not go to any length to explain why. to his credit he did grow up slightly differently than most people and the pressures he endured are bound to have had some kind of negative effect. i think we should think about this before going off and blasting him.
p.s. this was done entirely without capital letters because everytime i hit shift my computer types an s. does anyone have any idea what the hell is wrong? it has become an extreme pain to punctuate and im seriously considering breaking my POS computer.
"There's no way to rule innocent men. The only power any government has is the power to crack down on criminals."
ECONOMICALLY? How so? We alienate the arab nations, which control half the world's oil supply, in order to support a nation that has no oil whatsoever. We support Israel so much, in fact, that fully 1/3rd of their GDP is in the form of American aid. That's right, essentially one in three Israelis is living off of American handouts. How does this provide the USA with an economic benefit?
No, there are reasons that we support Israel, but money ain't one of them. We support Israel because of the holocaust. After WWII, the Allies decided that because of the horrors the Jewish people had endured (not only at the hands of the Nazis, but throughout their history), Israel would be turned over to them. Because we made that commitment, we back them. The second reason is suicide bombing. The Israelis may commit military actions which are of dubious morality (at best), but they've never sent in suicide bombers, or taken actions with no strategic value whatsoever. The third reason is historical. The arab nations in the middle east attacked Israel repeatedly without provocation. Each defeat has made them more and more hostile. Between terrorist actions like the slaughter of the Israeli Olympic team and wars of agression from the First Arab-Israeli War onward, it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel.
"The question of whether a computer can think is no more interesting than that of whether a submarine can swim" -EWD
" Before Bobby Fischer left for Russia in the summer of 1958, an agent posed as a college journalist to interview producers of the TV show I've Got a Secret. Bobby had been a guest on the show and won plane tickets to Russia. (Fischer's "secret?" He was U.S. chess champion. The panel was stumped.) "
I'm stumped too. Stumped how a gameshow in America, in 1958, could give away air tickets to Russia?! What else did you win, bug detector so you could tell when the feds were watching?
The us also tried to ruin Osama Bin Laden's life, and according to Frontline on PBS tried to assasinate him twice in the 1990s but failed (I assume his Allah protected him).
Like Saddam Hussain OBL is a former US puppet who turned on his "masters".
Then Osama could not take it anymore and may have tried to participate in destroyingh the world trade centers.
Maybe Castro is less easily upset, considering the number of botched US assasination attempts he has faced. Though if OBL wanted revenge why not target the CIA HQ?
The US gove BANS chess people from playing overseas. EVEN in 2002!!!!! Its true, certain chess experts are banned from international competition if the contests are in certain countries that embarrass the US.
Does the US actually need other countries to embarrass it, all too often the US can manage without anyone elses help...
Fischer just doesn't seem to understand that his insightful opinions are drowned in his ludicrous conspiracy theories and anti-semitism.
Lemon curry???
Um, I thought the US was kind of upset with Osama because he had already tried to blow up the WTC once.
TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
The FBI did have a legitimate national security interest in the Fischers. His mother lived and attended medical school in the Soviet Union. The KGB and GRU recruited agents from foreign students attending schools in the Soviet Union. His father fought against the fascists in the Spanish Civil War. That in itself isn't a problem, but it puts him in a group that was heavily infiltrated and influenced by the Communist Party and Soviet intelligence operations. The FBI didn't have the right to harass the Fischers, but I think they had a legitimate national security interest in investigating their activities to see if they were involved in espionage or other crimes. The CPUSA (Communist Party USA) was heavily involved in Soviet espionage operations.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
I guess that's like losing a chess championship, and then yelling "Best two out of three! Best two out of three!".
The leadership of the U.S. has changed 8 times since 1970, when Nixon was in office.
If, in fact, this is his motivation, he's fighting against an administration that's been out of power for a quarter of a century, and whose leadership, even if he could legitimately blame them, is already dead.
Perhaps his time would be better spent elsewhere?
-- Terry
I agree... the label of anti-semite is overused, even when conceivably on-topic (as in confusing anti-Zionism or anti-Jewish-Supremicism with anti-semitism.) As used here it is at best a lame troll.
At worst it is an example of hate.
Is this truly the only Earth I can live on?
"Maybe Castro is less easily upset"
Maybe not, I was told by a member of the CIA that Kennedy was killed in reaction to attempts on Castro's life.
Downloading While Chinese.
While I think the WTC attacks were totally fucked up, and that the people who did it are assholes, and should be killed; Its not as if they weren't provoked. Palestine and Israel have been fighting with each other for a long long time. We support Israel. Israel was created in 1948. We, the USA, and other allied powers / league of nations, put the israelis there, in palestine! Check up on some WW1, WW2 history. This and our continued support for israel is the reason for the WTC attacks, and for the turmoil in the middle east as I understand it. How long was palestine there before we decided to just make part of the country israel? Long long long before the USA was ever created. The first arab-israeli war was in 1948. 1948 they have been fighting for half a century. For some reason no one seems to have a perspective of the ammount of chaos and killing we helped to bring about in their part of the world. Israel and Palestine do the same shit to each other. But we label attacks by Palestine terrorism. BS. Both countries engage in it, we just support one of them.
Now, as for him hating the USA? How about this line of the story: He resurfaced in 1992 to beat Spassky again, in Yugoslavia. That got Fischer indicted: The Justice Department alleged he had violated U.N. sanctions imposed on Yugoslavia. If Fischer reenters the United States, prosecutors say, he faces arrest. Add that up with our FBI thinking his mother was a soviet spy, and I'd say they just wanted to fuck with the guy. We all think we're free until we do something the government doesn't want us to do. If I were him, I'd be pissed at the USA also. The USA is a great place to live, the best in the world. And I love the USA. But that doesn't mean we're always right, or that someone doesn't have a legit reason to hate our country/government. Unfortunately/sadly, in this democracy for the people by the people, the people aren't always the ones who are to blame for the wrong doings, but are usually the ones who pay the price. Its to bad we can't all just get along.
It's always nice to read an exciting stroy about a soviet spy! I guess we should get one of those 'learn to spell, 3yrs+' for both Cris and cmdr taco =).
a stupid theory. I'm curious to heard a valid argument.
It takes too long to qualify your attacks when you have to accurately represent things. Understanding a complex world is hard. It is much easier to make ridiculous generalizations that support your preconceptions. You burn too many cycles trying to see what is really there, so prejudice serves as a sort of blurring filter on reality. You don't see the details, just the colours.
Hence, bigots are just being more efficient with their brains. Not more effective, mind. Just quicker to come to conclusions, and then stop thinking. Leaves more time to watch TV.
I've got a bad attitude and karma to burn. Go ahead. Mod me down.
More GRRRR!
DROS - Open-Source Robot Software
Note for example that he is still being hounded for the sin of visiting Yugoslavia!
Bobby Fischer is a jerk and always was one, and his remark is typical. But I can see why he hates the American government.
As to "anti-semitic", its a word people like to throw around a lot. In this case it says more about the accuser than the accused. Even Arabs are often referred to as "anti-semitic"! I guess that's why they become suicide bombers... they hate themselves.
I bragged about my Karma at a job interview but I didn't get the job.
Except J Edger Hoover. They thought HE was straight...
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Oh bullshit. ... it was because God chose THIS land for them, and for some completely fucked up reason, this is good enough justification for the rest of the Western world. Fuck!.
The Jews want more and more and more of Palestine to be 'cleansed' of anything Palestinian so they can establish 'settlements' and claim more for themselves. The Palestinians are willing to settle for 15% of what used to be Palestine, but the incursions continue. Palestinians are denied the ability to travel freely in their own (the 15% bit) land. They are assaulted daily by the Jewish army (who use American weapons). The Jews do not want peace. Not the ones in control of the place anyway.
As for Ariel Sharon, he is one of the worst of them. I wouldn't trust that idiot as far as I could kick him. He fully backs the continual incursions. He gives direct orders to attack Palestinian schools, hospitals and cultural centres in the name of killing all the terrorists (sounds like a certain Bush).
And who the fuck gave the Jews the right to say whether Palestine can become a separate state or not? The Palestinians were there FIRST. It was they Jews / Americans who invaded. Why didn't America invite all Jews into their own borders? No, wait
I don't know about the most wanted list, but go check out our list of Terrorist Cells. A good portion of them are only on there because they are anti israel. You weren't around in the 1900's and neither was I. So you might be surprised to find out that we(with the league of nations) created israel for the jewish people around the 1920's. I think this is a moral argument, we assisted in transplanting these people into another country( palestine), and now they are at war over the land. Its pretty twisted... Israel and Palestine have been fighing for a long time, their first war was in 1948, about 50 years ago. And I'd say that we don't turn a blind eye to the atrocities against palestine, we just don't label it terrorism. Our support for israel is a very large part of the reason for the WTC + other attacks.
Cry to someone that actually gives a damn.
I give a damn.
...was coordinated and funded by Al-Quada
"The second reason is suicide bombing. The Israelis may commit military actions which are of dubious morality (at best), but they've never sent in suicide bombers, or taken actions with no strategic value whatsoever."
Isreal doesn't use suicide bombers. Why send suicide bombers when you can send armed helicopters? On the other hand, if you lack the helicopters and pretty much any other means of modern warfare, suicide bombers are cheap and reliable means of getting at your targets. There is nothing inherantly evil about suicide bombers.
It's probably the bad choice of targets of these suicide bombers, that you want to point out as one of the reasons for supporting Israel. Well, both sides are guilty there: when Israel sends its helicopters against a town that supposedly harbors terrorists, and fires missiles into their homes, innocent civilians die. These aren't precision military bombings as some would suggest. The town is chosen for harboring terrorists but the people wounded and killed in these raids are not picked off carefully. In my opinion that is just as bad as a suicide bombing.
". Between terrorist actions like the slaughter of the Israeli Olympic team and wars of agression from the First Arab-Israeli War onward, it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel."
I'd rather say that it makes it easy to dislike the Arab states and the Palestines; it hasn't changed my dislike for certain Israeli practices. Israel (their current government and a large part of their people) has the same problem that the Palestine terrorists have: they are fanatics; i.e. they are bent on achieving their goals by whatever means necessary.
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
He agreed to the formation of a palestinian state? oh how nice of him, since the USA created that israeli state for him after WWII out of palestine. Both sides are wrong. Palestine( BC ) was around long before Israel(1920's or 1948, i'm not sure). Take a minute and try to figure out why that state next to them is at war with them. Throughout this thread, anything that says something negative about israel is labeled a troll or antisemetic. Maybe you've been brainwashed. Issues like these can't be discussed after reading an article. You need some info on the history. They are both terrorists, we just support one of them because we put them there after wwII.
Flag me as a troll, but I have the feeling that a lot of anger from 95% of the world towawrd USA is just because the good old USA are putting their "paw" in various country where they are not welcome or called for, but qwhere they have economics or political interrest.
Quote "Check your history, America isn't the worlds police. We don't go around saving everyone, it's their job to save themselves. We don't have to "give a shit", but if you would like us too then I suggest you give us a reason to "give a shit" by not strapping bombs to your chest and going kamakazi through grocery stores and bus stations."
Maybe you should give a shit by either dropping support for dictatorial or opressing regime, and TOTALLY retract from world interraction or TOTALLY use your power to correct all stuff with a bit of ethics. No an half way thru.
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
Almost!
Let's not forget the fact the jewish population in the US has a lot of political pull, as well as money. It would not be a politically viable to piss off this collection group; it could mean that you lose a lot of support.
It is more a strategic rather than an economic benefit. Having a well armed and dependent ally in the middle east is useful to America.
> We support Israel because of the holocaust.
Partially true, but why not support Armenia too, Rawanda or whatever.
> The arab nations in the middle east attacked Israel repeatedly without provocation.... it's easy to be sympathetic to Israel.
Well, it is if you have a one sided viewpoint. Read Chomsky, I'm not saying he's right, but there are other sides to it http://www.zmag.org
http://rareformnewmedia.com/
Maybe not, I was told by a member of the CIA that Kennedy was killed in reaction to attempts on Castro's life.
This must rank amongst the daftest of the JFK theories. If any small nation had managed to kill a superpower leader don't you think they would have claimed responsibility and used David vs Goliath symbolism?
And don't tell me that Ariel Sharon in september 2000 was not not a suicide bomber. What he did was outrageous provocation. He was considered, and rightfully so (he was for a while even sued in Belgium, a country with a 'universal competence law' voted to try criminals against humanity outside of belgian territory), as a war criminal. I was going to make a nazi analogon, but you will invoke Godwin on me so I will do the same with one of your more personal friends. Suppose Ossama bin Laden were to make a pilgrimage to his now holy place, Ground Zero, NY, USA, accompanied with 1700 of his thugs with AK47s for protection of his peaceful pilgrimage. Assume further that the mayor of NY were to have no problems with the event, because 911 made him look good (Yeah, I know he resigned). Would you call the widows and orphans that violently protest terrorists ? This was a coup by the right wing to sink the negotiations (Yeah I know they didn't go too well) and gain control.
Don't you tell me that the guy who killed Rabin in 1995 was not a suicide bomber
Don't you dare saying me that the assassin that machine gunned the unarmed people in 199x in the Tomb of the Patriarchs in Hebron was not a suicide bomber.
The differences between these suicide bombers and Palestinian suicide bombers are that Israelis suicide bombers don't die because they are stronger, partly because of your American money.
One of the fun things in grad school is that tv, if and when you watch, is in a room full of smart, noisy people heckling the screen. Kind of like those Mystery Science Theater movies.
The Fischer-Spassky chess matches were a zoo, with half of us shouting moves at the screen, and the other half groaning, hissing, etc. In the din, over a period of days, I noticed one guy, relatively quiet--but when he did say something, his guesses were usually right. I thought, "There is a smart and interesting guy."
Anyway, 30 years and two great nerdy kids later, I still think he's a super smart interesting guy, also gorgeous, and I remain grateful to Bobby Fischer for his role in this.
And it is easy to make generalizations if one is unknowledgeable about the history of Palestine. I think you should read this in order to understand the roots of the present Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Keep this in mind: In the beginning of the 20th century only one person in 10 living in Palestine is a Jew. Now it is exactly reversed.
Put yourself in the shoes of the Palestinians: you have no american supplied F-16s, no Merkava tanks, no way of waging a Geneva Convention type war. How are you going to fight for your beliefs, your people and your history? Is it a wonder that the only way a desperate people can fight is through suicide bombings?
Please do not immediately label me an anti-semitic. I do not hate Jews, but I do deplore how the Israeli (and specially the Sharon) government's treatment of the Palestinian problem seems to mirror the way Hitler treated the Jewish problem. One has only to read Israeli newspapers to realize that many Israelis themselves are aware of these and actually criticize their own government.
I know many Jews here will agree with me. The problem with Israel is that it is not a nation of Israelis but a Jewish state. For as long as the Israeli government refuses to make itself into a truly representative, truly non-discriminatory nation it will continue to hold the entire world hostage to its ailment.
I'm going to stay out of the politics and take this time to discuss another aspect of Bobby Fisher's many methods of winning...
I read Bobby Fisher's book on chess as well as the NY Times account of his famous match against Spassky. He was brilliant. And devious. He totally psyched out Boris Spassky. According to my recollection, Spassky had the first move. But Fisher didn't show up right away. So Spassky made his move and then had to wait. And wait. And wait... A full half-hour later Fisher shows up and makes his move. The psychological impact of showing up half-hour late was worth losing the time on the clock.
In his rematch, he did something very similar. He argued and argued the terms of the rematch. He fought and fought and fought to get TV coverage and media and the location and and and... He got everything he requested...then when time began for the match to happen, the set up which was to his exacting demands was the very thing he complained about. The TV camera was killing his concentration. Move it back. No move it farther. No, out of the room altogether. Put it in the next room filming through the glass in the door!
Caveat, this is from my recollection of the events I read about, so I may have a detail or two off, but it's correct in the general outline...
I was going to make a nazi analogon, but you will invoke Godwin on me so I will do the same with one of your more personal friends. Suppose Ossama bin Laden...
Bahahaha! Thank you for making my morning!
"I am not going to let you invoke Godwin on me by bring up an over-used, emotionally provocative subject like Nazi's, so instead I'm going to bring up Bin Laden instead!"
The differences between these suicide bombers and Palestinian suicide bombers are that Israelis suicide bombers don't die because they are stronger, partly because of your American money.
The difference between Israeli soldiers and palastinian suicide bombers is that Palastinian (and many other Islamic radical militant) fighters are told by their leaders that by blowing themselves up in public, they will be sent directly to heaven where they will be given a harem of a thousand (or is it ten-thousand) virgins.
The vast majority of the Israeli military is made up by secular citizens (mostly Jews, some Arabs and Christians). In fact, most Israeli citizens are secular.
Further, decisions about giving strategic portions of land (the West Bank) to a militaristic group who is funded mostly by surrounding neighbours who have active delarations of war against them can make perfect sense without delving into religion and claims that 'God gave us this land'.
I can't claim to agree with the way the Israeli government has handled new settlements in disputed territories, but somehow claiming that being part of a settlement makes you a fair military target is outrageous. And suggesting that there is somehow a circumstance when walking into a public shopping area with no military presense in sight and blowing up yourself and a few dozen bystanders can somehow be justified?
Have I been trolled?
The leadership of the U.S. has changed 8 times since 1970, when Nixon was in office.
If, in fact, this is his motivation, he's fighting against an administration that's been out of power for a quarter of a century, and whose leadership, even if he could legitimately blame them, is already dead.
You honestly believe that the current administration is totally distinct to those of the past? Christ on a bike, Daddy Bush was head of the CIA, Cheney was Ford's assistant and Chief of Staff. Your current administration is chock-a-block with the same crooks and cronies as Bush Sr's 10 years ago, which was stuffed with Regan-era and earlier muppets. And now, to top it off, here comes Poindexter eager to set up his new Stasi. It's unbelievable.
... that they just gave this file to someone?
Yes, I fully support FOIA. But if the FBI had a file on ME, I'm not sure I would feel comfortable with them just handing it over to anyone because someone asked nicely through the mail.
Love and hate are not opposites. The opposite of love is indiference. To Ignore someone, and neglect them, to not show love.
vi +
Actually, a very good argument can be made that the Israeli government is a sort of suicide bomber. It does consistently take actions that increase the chances of its own people dying, for political reasons.
It is. And I think most americans misunderstand the situation so far as what palestinians target as well. Because Israel is a state that practices compulsory military service, when they target busses or nightclubs they are targetting military targets in a sense; the busses are primarily transportation for military personnel, and of course the nightclub patrons are in large majority military personnel, because they are of the age where that is compulsory. The argument is a double edged sword - the palestinians inflict civilian casualties - but the Israeli government uses those civilians as human shields, making it nearly impossible to attack military targets without inflicting civilian casualties. Both the US and Israel routinely inflict casualties on civilians and excuse it as 'collateral damage' - whatever validity that argument has (I am extremely skeptical of it) it has for the palestinians just as much as for others.
Disagreeing with the Israeli government is not anti-semitism, although there are all too many who will cheapen that word by slurring with it as if that were so. The Israeli government, and its overzealous defenders, in fact, are manufacturing anti-semitism with such misuse.
As a footnote to those readers who now think I'm anti-semitic, note that both of my links are to articles written by Jews whose forthright dedication to truth and justice I hold up as shining examples to be emulated by all people. The Jewish people are not identical to the Israeli government, either individually or collectively, and it's quite possible to criticise one without any prejudice towards the other. Take a minute, read the links, and think instead of reacting for once, please.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
A word means whatever general usage says it means. It's generally understood that the expression "ant-semitic" means "One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews." The etymology of the word may imply something else, but that's irrelevant.
--Larry
Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence
- The apostle Paul, Romans 12:9
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
I think not. There is a HUGE difference between a witch-hunt and finding spies. Spies exist, and they are dangerous. The russians themselves said that Mccarthy was a bit overzealous, but not wrong. Spies need to be watched, that's the FBI's Job. You say that we railroad people, but it only seems that way because this is the only country that is free enough to allow these people to operate in the first place.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
...didn't they think everyone was a Soviet spy back then?
we are building a religion
a limited edition
we are now accepting callers
for these pendant key chains
Please note, I am not advocating either side. I am merely pointing out some additional facts and correcting some statements made.
How long was palestine there before we decided to just make part of the country israel?
Well, actually, at the time of the creation of Israel, that entire area was under British control. There was not a separate palestinian state.
The Israelis and the Palestinians have been fighting for almost 2000 years. The might have been using different labels (Hebrew, Jew, Arab, various tribal names), but they have been fighting amongst themselves (and over Jerusalem) for almost 2000 years. It is naive to state that the creation of the Israli state is the cause of the fighting.
Israel and Palestine do the same shit to each other. But we label attacks by Palestine terrorism. BS. Both countries engage in it, we just support one of them.
I agree. Neither side is in the right here. Both sides do despicable things. One could argue that Israel has used the holocaust and other anti-Jewish actions to gain sympathy in order that they not get punished as severely for their actions. I don't know if that last statement is accurate, but it is a possibility.
If I were him, I'd be pissed at the USA also.
I don't think that is the case. He broke the law by violating the sanctions (I am judging the sanctions btw), and so he must face the consequences. The FBI investigation seems to be excessive and unjustified, but I don't know much other than what was in the article.
I think his hate for the US mostly stems from his inflated view of himself. In his phone call to the radio station after 9/11 he states that he gave the US our recognition for intellectualism. Judging from what he said during the phone call, he feels like he has been screwed by the US because he wasn't glorified and made rich as a result of his World Champion status. There is more evidence for this in the comments made about what he would do if he won a world championship (last quote in the comment). I don't think he got what he wanted, and as a result, he feels bitter again the US because he thinks we owe him something.
neurostarThe attacks were based upon the fact that the US as a military base in the country that is considered most sacred. For a small number of radicals, a non-muslim nation (the US or any orther western country) having a military base there, is a problem to them (even though the reigning Saudia government has asked the US to be on their land). This was the reason why Sept 11 occured, the Palestine and Israeli conflict was never really even mentioned by AlQueda. When AlQueda realized that the US actually capable of taking out large chunks of their system, did they put support behind Palestine to bring in other Muslims that were not as offended by having a western military base in Saudi Arabia.
ha?
while i agree with you in the point that israelis don't commit suicide bombing (at least, not one that i recall)
saying that the USA doesn't influence arab countries is bullshit, look at:
1)Saudi Arab relations with the US
2)how the US financed Iraq in the Iran x Iraq war
3)how US rushed to "defend" Kwait, and is still there
besides that, saying that US helps Israel just because of a WWII allied decision?
US supports them because many jews live in the US and "demmand" that (no problem with these, since everybody has the right to ask the government to hear their positions) and also because it's a good investment (think high-tech here)
also, claimming that Israel never attacked others without provocation? man, you need some history lessons, check for conflicts with Lebanon, Egypt and Syria
disclaimer: i am in no way supporting terrorist attacks, nor the invasion of Kwait by Iraq
-- SouNerd.com
Once again, The Atlantic has a very good piece about this. In the 12/2002 issue, which arrived last Friday, there's a long piece detailing just how whacked-out Bobby Fischer is; look for it here:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/12/
After reading it, I can see why the FBI kept an eye on him, just on general principles: he seems crzy as a bedbug. In addition to this, there's a fact that the article points out: "...[in 1992 Fisher played] Spassky again, in Yugoslavia. That got Fischer indicted: The Justice Department alleged he had violated U.N. sanctions imposed on Yugoslavia. If Fischer reenters the United States, prosecutors say, he faces arrest."
Wen Ho Lee is far from an innocent party. He gave to his kids passwords to laboratory computer systems, downloaded classified material to an unsecure computer, copied the classified material to tapes and took the tapes from the lab supposedly to his home where he says he destroyed and disposed of them. He was less than truthful during the investigation. I think the gov't botched the investigation by making him out to be a spy but I don't feel he was treated too harshly. He was given a clearance, he knew the rules and he chose to disregard them. His claim that everyone does what he did is just not true.
Allegedly? He admitted to it. The data was obsolete and well known? Do you know exactly what it was? If it was so worthless why did he bother copying it to tapes? This was a few days of work. It's not up to him to decided what is classified and what isn't.
Newton was a classic Victorian prude and mysogynist-- and probably a closet homosexual. He was quite proud of his 'virginity' and proclaimed upon his death bed that no woman had soiled him. (I need to look up the exact quote.)
After his landmark physics theories, Newton spent an unreasonable amount of time trying to use numerology to calculate the end of the world based on passages in the Bible. Despite his intelligence, he had many unreasonable fears hatreds.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Fischer is the greatest chess player who ever lived, and several pegs above the likes of Kramnick and Kasparov. The idea that he's a Russian spy is absurd. Fischer hates the Russians. He accused them of conspiring to keep the chess champion a Russian. He said the games between Kramnick and Kasparov were pre-determined. He is certainly not a Russian spy.
The other ridiculous thing that the US gov't has done to Fischer is threatned to arrest him should he ever return to the US, because he played a chess tournament in a nation which was under "sanctions" by the US. Fischer tore up a letter from the US gov't demanding that he not play in that nation. He has the right to play chess where-ever the fuck he wants to. He shouldn't face punishment for carrying out his livelihood in a nation the US "doesn't approve of". He could play fucking Chess in Iraq and make millions for the Iraq government. That's his fucking right.
Yes, Fischer has some obnoxious views, and has said some cruel and hateful things about the Jews, and has said some outrageous things about 9/11. Again, that's his right. He has the right to say whatever the fuck he wants to. Quite frankly, I can understand him for hating the US. He is the only US citizen who has brought honor to the US in the chess arena -- the only American who's ever been anything in chess. And not only was/is he good, he was/is the best. The US government repaid him by threatening to arrest him because he played Chess in a "sanctioned nation". That doesn't mean its right to say that the 9,000 people who died at 9/11 deserved it, but he still has the right to say that.
As for his hatred of the Jews, though I'm not saying its good, he still has the right to hold whatever opinions he wants. Though it would make more sense if he hated Christians, as he was scammed by the "Worldwide Church of God". But from his perspective, he's been wronged by Jews. He's particularly enraged about all of the profiteering that has been going on around his name, while he hasn't received a dime. Movies like "Searching for Bobby Fischer" and biographies of him were made, yet he's received no compensation. In short, other people are making billions of dollars off of his name, and he attributes this mainly to the Jews. That doesn't justify hating all Jews, but its still his right to do so.
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
If someone would send the Palestinians some tanks and helicopters or other politically correct weapons, I am sure they would gladly use those instead of suicide bombers.
There's also a big profile on Fischer in December's Atlantic Monthly:m
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/12/chun.ht
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Non-Linux Penguins ?
People who think Israel doesn't have the right to exist is basically an anti-semite. If you know th e history of Israel's creation, then it pretty much makes no sense to critize it.
There is an earlier story about the suspicion that Regina Fischer was a Soviet spy. The title is Was Fischer's Mother a Communist Spy (pdf file) written by someone who knew Joan Fischer (Bobby's sister).
Stalin was deeply involved in the Spanish Civil War. He provided the Republicans with substantial quantities of arms, military advisors and "volunteers". He also exported his paranoia and the purges to Spain. The PCE (Communist Party of Spain) often seemed more interested in fighting its perceived enemies in the Republicans than it did in fighting the Nationalists.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
...and there were people in Palestine before the Jews were there. Read the Old Testament of the bible for tons of stories about how the Jews killed tribe after tribe, nation after nation. The bible says that they are god's people, and that is why god leads them to victories over so many nations.
The argument that it is the Jewish homeland is a fascist argument. The rule of thumb is that there was always some race their before yours.
> How do you explain the large 'donations' to EACH political party in the run-up to each US election?
Proof, you goddamn puppet.
> And why does America sell so many 'weapons of mass destruction' to Israel
Do you even know what the fuck a WMD is, jackass? Or don't they teach that at your Chomsky circle jerks? You fucking fucktard. Guess what, if the balloon goes up in the middle east, the arab nations are going to find out exactly what a WMD is when their major cities are turned into radioactive slag.
> and not to the Palestinians - the ones who are protecting their land from the invading Jews
Ahh hear we go, the evil jews again, would you at least pretend and call them Israelies (here is a clue tick-turd, not all Israelies are Jews). We don't have to give them weapons, that's is what hate-mongering islamic charities and the Saudia Arabian government is for. They provide ample funds to the palestinians so that they can blow up a pool hall filled with teenagers and markets full of old women.
>the invasion of Palestine and the crushing of anyone who opposes them, America is right behind them because if they were not, the next election campaign budget would be severly in the red.
Umm no, the American government has on multiple occasions publicly rebuked the Israeli government for its handling of the current crisis. That being said, guess what Israel is its own country, it can do whatever the hell it wants too. It is a tribute to their commitment to the friendship between our two countries that they listen to us at all. Name one other country that has the kind of influence we do? Even with that, Israel is its own country and will do what ever it feels is neccessary to secure its existence.
> the same way they are turning a blind eye to the Nike (and other) sweat-shops around the world
Aren't these "sweat-shops" in countries? Don't these countries have governments? Hey ass-face if a country is unwilling to protect its own people from expoitation by the evil white man it isn't the problem of the US government.
> Next time you hear of a terrorist attack, stop and ask yourself "Why?"
Tell that to the Aficans killed at the embassy bombings, the Indonesians and Australians (I know those evil 'roos are out to destroy the world) at Bali, the non-Americans killed at the WTC (more non-Americans died, then Americans). Here is a fucking answer and a wake up call: because clueless children living in white bread suburbia who are angry about their own priviledge, such as your self, make excuses for mindless hate.
Do I fully support Israel? Their right to exist yes. However, I do not support their use of either extra-judicial assassinations or the high explosives they use to carry them out. However, until the Palestinian people condem in a loud, united, and unequivical voice, the homicide bombers who claim to act on their behalf and reject the blood money from the Arab world and declare that Israel has a right to exist, I have little sympathy for them.
Think the palestinians have it bad now? With the change of government it is going to be whole lot worse. They have no one but themselves to blame.
Kill Whitey!!! Kill the Jooooooossss!!! Not just a slogan, a way of life on slashdot.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
In the Southeast U.S., I speak to a lot of Christians who support Israel because they believe:
These beliefs have had dramatic long-term effects on US foreign policy, and they probably play a continuing role in how the U.S. sees Israel.
Personally, I would like to understand these things better; I've concluded that a lot of the stuff I was raised to believe is somewhat careless myth, but I don't want to err on the "America is totally evil" side either. Objectivitity is hard to come by... history seems to be a mix of motives and economics of varying degrees of integrity and naievety.
-1, Too Many Layers Of Abstraction
No more so or less so than any other human being. We all see things through the lens of our culture and upbringing. However, I consider myself first and foremost a scientist and logical thinker. I make mistakes, and I am always interested in having my mistakes pointed out to me by those who refrain from ad hominem attacks and blatant racism.
n unbiased thinking does not just look at crime statistics or graduation statistics and take them as established facts, all the while failing to consider alternative explanations for social injustices and inequalities.
Huh? You did not read my post properly, or perhaps I wasn't clear enough about my meaning. The point is that the facts are not under dispute. The explanation IS open to dispute. In fact, I agree with you here that the crime statistics and graduation statistics I referenced ARE due to social circumstances. I don't know about focusing on "injustices and inequalities" since that seems like a rather negative and narrow framework to view it in, but I certainly never argued that any of these differences were due to anything other than social circumstance. In the case of Jewish culture, a value and ethic is placed on academic performance and achievement. This is a qualitative observation I have made, based on my own life history, in which I have lived in many communities, some which were dominated by a variety of minorities (mostly black, in Lauderdale Lakes, FL), some of which were mostly white, and some of which (in New York City) were largely Jewish.
In particular, the idea of "institutional racism" does not inform your thinking. I see no evidence that you are prepared to have a serious discussion of the issues you've raised.
I am aware of the concept of "institutional racism". I agree that it can explain some of the problems certain minority groups have. It can certainly not explain some of the successes certain minority groups have had. Internal cultural differences can explain both, but certainly some of those cultural differences have been created by years and centuries of "institutional racism". In the case of Jews, I think the cultural differences have been created by social forces on Ashkenazi Jews in Europe over the centuries that favored the cultivation of intellectual skills - there have been several studies that have used this explanation to explain observed IQ differences. Not to say that this is "the truth", but it is a possible explanation. Likewise, cultural evolution of American Black culture has certainly resulted from insitutional racism over the years, though I think more of the problems African Americans have today are due to these entrenched cultural differences than due to _current_ institutional racism, that likely plays a part too.
In the future, you should consider taking a less hostile position with somebody who fundamentally agrees with your point of view. And don't post AC. It undermines your credibility.
Maybe this is because Jews generally have more money than the average population while african americans tend to be poorer? "Elite" colleges are all about how much cash you have. Helps if you're not black too. Get charged and convicted of felony theft is all about how little money you have for a lawyer, oh ya, helps if you're black too.
Okay, how did Jews get all that money then? When most Jews immigrated to this country they were poor, just like the Irish and the Italians. Actually, all of these groups have been quite successful economically in this country.
I cannot deny that economic success increases the odds of academic success by providing time to spend in academic pursuits. However, before the Jewish community in the US was well off at all, academics were still heavily emphasized. Some of the great Jewish academics of this century came out of CCNY in New York, and were from poor or middle class families in Brooklyn and Queens. I don't have statistics to back this up, but simple qualitative observation rejects your assertion that academic success is tied only to economic status.
Furthermore, I would encourage you to look at the inside of an elite college sometime. There are certainly people there because they have money, but they are usually the minority (maybe 15-20% of the school's population). At Harvard, where I went, over 60% of the undergraduate students received financial aid.
So if i decide I'm only going to hire white people because they have so many great and well documented accomplishments then I am not prejudice?
No, if you judge an individual based on statistical trends among groups without any particular analysis of causation you are an idiot. It is not prejudiced to note that white people have had many great accomplishments. Of course, much of that (in the US) has to do with the fact that over the years this has been a white culture, a country founded by white people, with institutions and organizations founded by white people. The implicit assumption you would be making in refusing to hire non-whites is that non-whites must not be as competent for a job regardless of individual merit, or that they all have non-desireable characteristics based on ethnicity. Those are prejudiced assumptions, very different from factual observations.
Since you say if it is based on facts not opinions then it is true. So you can't deny then that most Israel men are trained killers who have participated in the occupation and suppression of the palestinian territories?
I agree that many Israeli men have been trained by the military. That military training is not that different from the military training every male receives in any country with mandatory military service. If that makes them "trained killers" then so is anybody who has done military service. Most who served in the Israeli military never fired a gun during their service, and certainly most have not killed any Palestinians.
I never said I agreed with the occupation of Palestinian territories nor with the "settlements" or the religious zealots who live in them (who, noteably, make up less than 1% of the population of Israel). I support a peaceful two state solution in Israel and the Palestinian territories, as do the majority of American Jews.
It doesn't say that Fischer or his mother were spies. It says that Fischer's mother was suspected of spying, ergo Fischer must be...Q.E.D. Or so the drones that worked for the FBI thought.
Israel defines: "'Jew' means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
:-)
In that case, it would require an unbroken chain of atheist descendants (i.e. not members of another religion) from a Jewish mother n generations up the line (where n is only limited by how old you believe the human race to be and practical breeding concerns).
Anyway, this is kind of missing the point. What the original poster said implied that most people in the world could be classified as `Jewish'; what you said implies that they can't.
OTOH, it all depends how that definition is parsed anyway. I think it might mean the same as the original poster said, but that's unlikely, and I have work to do.
"Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
So your claim is that Al Quaeda waited for a Republican Administration, before they decided that they didn't like the U.S., right?
-- Terry
You are an idiot.
I worked in the same IBM facility as one of his kids; their cubicle was 20 feet away from mine. We all followed the case very closely, and we were pretty uniformly outraged; and being an engineering department, we did not simply adopt the outrage of the family blindly, we looked at the information for ourselves, rather than operating on hearsay.
Are you maybe that FBI dufus who perjured himself on the stand, and then later retracted his testimony, which anyone can see by examining the public records of the court proceedings?
If so, your behaviour really reflects poorly on your organization.
-- Terry
Obviously, CmdrTaco is the anonymous reader who wrote the "stroy" ("Philidelphia" was a nice one, too)... ;)
As a game player........ Sure the US Military is interested...
I have a feeling I agree with what you're saying, but not what you think.
The critical distinction for free speech is between speech as an extension of though vs speech as the result of thinking. You should be allowed to say "Jews suck" if that's what you think, (or you can say you hate me, all Canadians, white people, non-jews) as we should never limit your ability to think. However, speaking can also be an action, and just as we limit your ability to call people and threaten their lives, it's wrong to incite people with "Let's go kill some Jews".
The system is supposed to work because an abundance of information causes statements like "the Jews drink baby blood" to look stupid. The cheif problem arises when people confuse you stating your (if not great, at least truthful) opinion that you don't like jews with you actively hindering them.
I'll be the first to admit that even after 200 years we're still ironing out the details though.
My list of multiplayer
If nothing else, this shows that they're doing at least a little better than the Nazis. I think they were less than eager to tolerate dissent.
My list of multiplayer
Another good example of this is the korean culture.
Koreans also know how to work hard. You'll find plenty of chinese or eastern europeans and koreans that all arrived in the US at the same time. 5 years later, you'll find that many of the koreans are driving mercedes/bmw's and own their own businesses.
Its actually quite funny, but I was taking a cab ride in Ft Lee NJ, a town directly over the bridge from New York City. The cab driver, a mildy average cocky american in his 60's was telling me how the Jews really made Ft Lee their town in time past. Now, it happened to be a big Korean area.
This dumbfuck of a cab driver expected me to be angry at both cultures which had inhabited this area at one point.
Sorry, but I also happen to be a hardworking american that understands the value of good hard and intelligent work.
And aside from jews and koreans I know plenty of muslims,mexicans,canadians, english, christians, immigrants and non-immigrants who do well for themselves. Jews don't rule the country, americans do. And america was never white.
-- -- --
Help my mini cause: My journal
You honestly believe that slaves were never beaten, that they had a good life in bondage? Speak with any scholar of African-American history and they will certainly disagree with you.
Slaves WERE traded widely. Many plantations in Virginia, where cotton does not grow well, bred slaves expressly for sale to the Deep South. There are countless primary sources detailing the beating and lashing inflicted on slaves in all regions.
Any wages they received from being hired out were property of their master. Slaves, especially rural slaves, were fed poorly and "healthcare" is a joke. If they could walk they could work. Finally, if slavery was so great, WHY DID THEY RUN AWAY? Your statements are a tired old argument for slavery apologists.
Don't believe me? Read anything by Frederick Douglass, or 'African American Voices' by Stephen Mintz, a collection of primary works on slavery in America.
They are different crooks than they were 32 years ago, and they are crooks from the opposition party of the crooks who were in power 4 years ago.
If Fischer is justified in U.S.-bashing as if he were mad from syphilis contracted from a chess groupie, he ought to at least bash the right crooks.
NB: your "Bush was head of the CIA" argument is really bogus: that was George Bush Sr., not George Bush Jr.
-- Terry
Well he was killed that is for sure huh?
Sometimes when you achieve your goal it isn't wise to blab about it. It's about saving face on the one hand. Also I'm sure there wasn't concrete proof anyway.
One man acting alone could easily be called just as stupid a theory. If it wasn't the prevailing one already.
Ever wonder why we still have sanctions on Cuba for so long? We are fairly friendly with Russia and China now, and Cuba is a flea, but it's illegal for our citizens to even visit. Hrm...
Anyway it was just something I was told, makes sense to me though
The article specifically states that the FBI's conclusion was that Bobby and his mother were NOT spies. The Slashdot blurb is wrong, and possibly libelous.
Besides, incest is illegal.
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Well, give him an F+ for effort.
all these comments seem to be adding things to my argument that aren't in it, alls i was saying is that i don't think there is anything wrong with lambasting someone who says killing millions of people is a sham, regardless of what other killings, slaughterings, holocausts, slips of banana peels are wrong, right, silly, interesting blah blah blah, saying the holocaust is a sham is WRONG in my opinion. This doesn't mean i support what the israelis are doing now, in fact i think both the israelis AND palestinians who are attacking and killing one another are wasting there lives for no good cause. Now lambast me on this, because now certainly i think that in 1942 when king blah blah fought off the turkish mob that was overtaking the mahi mahi chicken sauce.....COME ON!
http://www.vanillaafro.com - take me seriously and I will shoot you
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/ 20021117/ap_on_re_us/fbi_bobby_fischer_1
It is not quite as extensive as the link posted with the thread but it gives a quick synopsis of the story. If you want more details I suggest reading the other article.
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You just used the term "ethnic cleansing" unironically. Please never do that again. To do so is to merrily incorporate into your vocabulary the claim that certain ethnicities are dirt and their members should be removed by any means necessary. The widespread adoption of this term by people who should know better is disgusting.
Ever since prehistoric times, wise men have tried to understand what, ..."
exactly, make people laugh. That's why they were called "wise men." All the
other prehistoric people were out puncturing each other with spears, and the
wise men were back in the cave saying: "How about: Would you please take my
wife? No. How about: Here is my wife, please take her right now. No How
about: Would you like to take something? My wife is available. No. How
about
-- Dave Barry, "Why Humor is Funny"
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