Slashdot Mirror
Windows Refund Day II
pbody writes "Sorry if this is rehashing an old topic, but I was looking for advice on how
to try to get a refund for the copy of XP that is coming with the laptop I
just bought when I came across this on LinuxJournal
about windowsrefund.net. They are
organizing "Windows Refund Day II" on January 23, 2003 -- which coincides
with the LinuxWorld Expo in NYC. Knowing how the first refund day turned
out, how many out there are going to the Expo and are thinking about
participating? For that matter, has anybody had any luck at all getting a refund from a vendor lately?"
What about a BeOS refund?
What was your username again? -BOFH
But the other way around - I need to get a refund for Windows ME and get my copy of XP from Sony - you would have thought they'd make it easy for you to give them money, but no. You have to fill out a form on the web, print it out, mail it to France, ring up a wek later to check status, confirm the order by email and *then* send your payment. Do they *want* to lose customers?
sig:- (wit >= sarcasm)
... not me but another guy posted this in ch.comp.os.linux. It's in german, but in short: he got a Dell Notebook finally without the OS (2k or XP) and he paid 7% less than with OS. Not bad.
I tried getting a refund from a VPR Matrix (best buy brand) machine, no luck. a friend of mine tried hp, with similar luck.
/is/ in the EULA... they do realize that, right?
any laywers feel like taking on MSFT? this
sulli
RTFJ.
Sorry if this is rehashing an old topic, but I was looking for advice on how to try to get a refund for the copy of XP that is coming with the laptop.
Sell it on E-bay to someone who wants it.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
I really don't get the people that are in a huff over this. You've seen from past examples that Microsoft and the OEMS aren't going to honor that EULA, and frankly, more power too them. Its just going to tick people off so much that they either build their own (which is the real solution to this problem) or go with a reseller that wil provide whatever OS you feel like running (there are plenty out there).
We all know that MS are trying to move towards a licensing model where you pay every 3years/1 year/1 month/every day to use the software. This is interesting when you think about software as a service.
So the software is FREE, but the service is paid for. Thus the service enables the "free" software to be used and you have paid for a period of n to use that software. This could make getting a refund harder as the service is provided by Microsoft and not the OEM, also as its paid up front from the OEM to Microsoft it blurs how refunds can be obtained. Its like car insurance, you have it, you pay for it up front, the fact that you don't have a car crash doesn't mean that you can say it wasn't used and ask for a refund.
IANAL (Thank god) but a licensing change could make refunds even harder to get hold of.
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
Now go spend your time protesting something that is really taxing, the US Government. Sheesh!
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
I'm still waiting for my DOS refund from 10 years ago. They said they would send me the money, never got though.
"Due to the nature of software piracy, we can not offer refunds or exchanges on open, or OEM software"
0110100100100000011000010110110100100000011000100
I can phone up tomorow, cancel it and get a pro-rata refund.
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
If a manufacturer won't let me buy a computer without a MS OS pre-installed, I just don't buy the computer from them. I know this can't be avoided sometimes, but I think it's better for this community to support manufacturers that are not so intimately in bed with MS.
For laptops, I would try PCTorque.com. (I have no association with the website, other than being a satisfied repeat customer.)
And, to remain on-topic, from everything I've ever experienced or read about MS and their aggressive licensing policies/ideology, I think that it will take an outcry from corporations before MS even begins to contemplate giving refunds on unused merchandise. You've already had the opportunity to see the registration key, and that's very important to them.
I ran into an annoying problem similar, myself. I purchased a Compaq laptop last year, and they wouldn't let my buy it without an OS. So, I took the lowest priced option, XP Home, but never used it, just got the machine, installed linux and was happy. Last week, I ended up needing XP, but I didn't want to wipe my linux partition. The default recovery disks repartition AND reformat the drive rather than just being a copy of XP home + additional installers. So, since I had a valid activation key and license with the machine, I figured I could just install from a different XP home disk. No dice, apparently OEMs are given activation keys that only work for their installs. Both Compaq AND Microsoft said that if I wanted the partitioning and removal of the OEM stuff, I'd have to buy another copy. How irritating, since I HAVE a valid license. Ended up having to use the recovery disk after backing up my linux partition, and then uninstall AOL, COMPUSERVE, etc. etc. Big pain in the arse.
Today only, there is a double your money back satisfaction guarantee for linux. If not fully satisfied, you can take advantage of this one time offer.
a manufacturer that pre-installs windows on their machines is not the devil for it. like it or not, most people use windows, and its good business practice to be able to pre-install it and probably cut the end user a little bit off the price of paying for the os retail.
not everyone likes linux and mac. not everyone can build machines. most people dont like the attitude on this web site, cuz its so intolerant. its time to quit bitching and understand that the world does not need to "be freed from microsoft."
by the way, before you get a chance to reply with all sorts of snide remarks, i built my two machines and i run linux (gentoo) and windows xp. peace.
I don't wan't to sound un/.y, but is it really fair to expect a refund for the OS when you buy a computer package? When you buy a computer from some manufacturer you don't come back with just your graphic card and demand a refund because you don't like it. Or when you buy a car, you don't return the rearbumper just because you don't like the brand of it (no auto makers don't make every part themself.) You can't demand a refund for the nVidia GPU on the Gainward card because you want an ATI chip on it. It's a package deal. You bough a package, knowing what's in it and if you're going to get a refund you'll need to return the whole package, except if it's broken. If you don't like the parts in a package you've baught you replace them yourself. You knew exactly what you were getting.
Look a monkey!
You got lucky. Unfortunately, it is still rather more difficult to find a retailer that builds his own laptops than it is for desktops. Here in Luxembourg, there is one such a retailer, but unfortunately, their laptops are so much overpriced that even without Windows they are 200 more expensive than the competition with windows... Unfortunately, this situation puts us Linux users into an interesting dilemna: pay more (and do not support Billyboy), or pay less (with the knowledge that some part of the small price went into Billy's pockets).
Say no to software patents.
The problem that I see for you is that you accepted the purchase of XP when you purchased the laptop. You knew what you were getting, and you elected to pay for it. If you felt that the configuration did not match your needs, then why did you make the purchase? Would you buy a set of screwdrivers and then try to return the sizes you don't need? Do not burden the vendor with your own decision to purchase something that did not match your needs. They delivered exactly what they said they would.
There are vendors that will sell a laptop with Linux installed. There are major vendors that will sell you a laptop without an OS. You have to call them and specifically request it - you won't find it on their website.
To the slashdotters who are saying 'Just build your own, or go to reseller X instead', the poster is talking about a laptop. Building a laptop yourself is an excersize in futility, and once you have your eye on a certain laptop, say a Sony Viao or IBM Thinkpad, that's what you want. One shouldn't have to go with some lame brick laptop just because it came without an OS. So getting the laptop you want, without the MS tax is something that can't be solved with the 'Build it yourself or shop elsewhere' attitude. Microsoft should be help accountable for what is in their (possibly) binding EULA. MS is treating their EULA like the Bible, sticking to the parts that benefit them and ignoring the rest. That's complete nonsense and they should be held accountable!
God is real unless declared integer.
Don't you have to have the original disc/disk packaging sealed for this to work?
The wording is such that if you don't agree with the licensing agreement, you can return the package unopenned for a refund. If you open it, you can't return it. I presume that if it's windows 3.1 or DOS, the package would have been openned. At the very least in the case of DOS, since they always factory installed that.
As for getting the refund, I'd never even tried getting it from MS, but many smaller mom&pop shops will cross off the Windows line on the invoice and give you a discount if you don't want windows. The discount isn't quite as high as you might think though -- They only offered $30 (Canadian) off if I didn't want winXP. Considering that the shop across the street was (illegally, I guess) selling OEM winXP for $110(Canadian) I had expected more.
IMO, it's not really worth the bother if it's only going to be $30.
I bought my VW Golf two years ago, and i'm very pleased with it, except for that crappy in-dash radio they MADE me buy. I could not buy the vehicle without buying the radio. Maybe we can organize a Factory Radio Refund Day?
Likewise, my townhome came with really terrible, contractor grade windows. I hate them. I was not allowed to buy the townhome without these windows. Maybe I can get my money back for them as well?
Finally all the Macs in my organization run one flavor of Mac OS or another. I could not buy these things without Mac OS. Maybe I can convince Steve Jobs to give me $100 for each copy of Mac OS I don't use?
Face it, bundling is prevalent every where you look. Just because it's "software" doesn't mean you can "un-bundle" one particular aspect of a product you don't like.
-ted
Give me a second while I get my "World's Smallest Violin" out...
I purchased a laptop from Fujitsu. Naturally it came with Windows XP, so I requested a refund. After nearly 2 weeks of back and forth emails of me requesting a refund, and pointing them to various websites about the issue, and my claims against the EULA to use windows I got nowhere.
Their argument was i agreed to THEIR EULA which states i can't get a refund, when i purchased it. Either they were ignorant or refused to give a refund under any circumstance. I would have contacted a lawyer but it just isn't worth my time.
- tristan
you can't get a refund on what you haven't paid for ;-)
[MS] If you sell just our OS you can have them at $20.00 each.
[Dell] Ok.
[Techie] Dell, will you give me a refund for this unused OS at full market value?
[Dell] No.
[Techie] MS, will you give me a refund for this unused OS at full market value?
[MS] Uh, no.
[Techie] I can't figure out why these guys won't budge...
And most vendors around here charge a 15% restocking fee for notebooks, so you can see how far you would get.
As has been suggested before, if you do not want a given item (Windows or whatever), then either look for a system that does not include it, build your own, or have someone build one to your specs. This will enable you to get exactly what you want and no more at a price you are willing to pay, and it will also provide an incentive for the manufacturers to provide systems that meet your desire so that they can get your business.
I consider the refund day concept to be little more than a minor publicity prank and of little practical value. What might make it beneficial would be for a group of users to purchase a product, refuse to accept the EULA, and then demand refunds per the instructions included in the EULA (supposedly this has happened with the people that would be participating in the refund day). Microsoft would probably point the users to the vendor, and the vendors would probably stand on their return policies. An ambitious and capable law firm might be able to make a case out of this, but the outcome would probably be along the lines of prohibiting vendors from charging restocking fees on items where the customer refuses to accept the EULA unless it was presented prior to purchase. The law firm wouyld also rack up fees to be paid by someone, probably the vendors. This would not amount to a significant change.
If you REALLY want to make a change in the marketplace, don't give your money to companies that you do not agree with or whose policies you dislike. If enough people do this it will force changes in the market. And if not enough people do this to make a difference, then you need to accept that you hold a minority viewpoint and are a niche customer.
IANAL, and you should pay for legal advice rather than believe anything you read here.
Bother, said Pooh, as he called in an air strike.
My friend ended up buying a Gateway PC and I told him to go back to "Gateway Country" to get his refund because he wanted to install Windows 2000 Pro-Not ME. The schmuck's at the GW store were clueless and refused to honor the EULA. A quick trip to the Washington State Attorney Generals Online Consumer Complaint Form and Corporate Gateway was calling him! They ended up (in an effort to keep a Gateway customer happy) paying him the price he paid for Winodws 2000 and the amount that I charged him to install it on his machine. The check he received from GW was around $500 US! If they had simply honored the EULA, GW would only have been out about $90? $120 tops. AND he got to keep all the software CD's that came with the PC. I don't think they ever really understood that he was entitled to the refund under the EULA.
Veritas patesco per quaestio questio. Truth is revealed through questions.
So M$ is effectively breaching contract on the EULA, right? Any way one could mount an argument that this releases you from the terms of the EULA? 'Coz that would be nice....
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
I agree, you can choose what you purchase.
When I bought my car, I didn't care about some "features", in fact I would prefer not to have them, but it is a package deal, that's what I chose.
I generally buy a preassembled computer because it is cheaper then buying all the components separately. Even though I end up with some things I don't care about.
You could build your own laptop, it would just be much more expensive then just buying one with "extra" features.
The difference is that a graphics card doesn't come with an EULA that says you can return it for a refund if you don't agree to the ludacrisp (heh) terms.
What many people assume is that you want to install Linux on a laptop. What if I own a copy of Win2k, and don't want XP? I should be able to return XP and install my own copy of Win2k. It isn't all about Linux.
And part of what ticks people off is that they PAY for an OS that they are being forced to purchase. Microsoft has made sure that OEMs include a MS OS in the price by charging them whether they sell you one or not. Sure, you can say "then don't buy from them" but as long as the EULA exists and it says you can return it, people should do it. Not only that, you don't even get a full copy of the OS to do with as you please. If they gave you a full version, instead of those insane recovery disks, you could at least sell it or give it away.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
you can't get a refund on what you haven't paid for ;-)
Pff! You live in the United States, where lawsuits rule.
You have the opportunity to sue Red Hat for failed promisses and have them reimburse you for your download time PLUS lost productivity.
It'll happen. Just wait.
Sure you can build your own, or you could contract IBM/Sony to build it to your specifications.
This special order would probaly end up costing you MUCH more then just paying for the extra crap you don't want, but that is your choice.
Free market, buy what you want. You are not being forced to buy windows, you're just not willing to seek out alternatives.
If you really want to protest, buy stock (become a part owner of the company), and complain about these practices at the next shareholders meeting.
Try this link for some nice laptops that you can buy without an OS. They even has a Linux forum. Nice people, nice laptops!
When you buy your laptop, you don't accept the EULA at that time, you must accept it later. If you fail to accept the terms of the EULA, you cannot use the product. MicroS**T must refund the money since if you do NOT accept the EULA, you must be given the option of returning the software, or you'll have to return the WHOLE computer to the store...and computer stores don't go for the software they install forcing customers to return the computer. Therefore, they must give the option of NOT accepting the EULA and returning the software (OS) , if you cannot get a refund, Send a letter to microsoft, saying that you do NOT accept the EULA and that they have 30 days to get you your money back, or you'll take their lack of response as permission to use the software without the conditions of the EULA.
err... how *did* the first refund day turn out?
You're right - the OEMs are just making money, not playing ideology.
However, as I recall, years ago, you could get an OS-less PC from Dell. This was before M$ started strongarming companies, saying "put windows on everything you sell, or NOTHING." Obviously, from then on, OEMs sold windows on everything (this much is documented in the antitrust case).
Point is, are the OEMs basically refusing to sell OS-less PC's because it's convenient, or through fear? I know Dell will for some business clients, because usually they have a win site-license (could be mistaken about the details). However, they won't do it for just anyone.
I know it's hard to custom-make computers when you sell a jillion of them, but Dell does *some* tailoring of computers - it seems like formatting the HDD's of those pre-installed computers would not be that difficult to integrate into their business model. That's why I think there's still some fear of M$ involved.
-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat
Well, the Mac is slightly different, because Apple clearly states that all Macs come with a FREE copy of the MacOS on the machine. New machines always come with the OS for free. You only get charged if you upgrade it. It's the same for Solaris boxes. You buy the hardware and Sun throws in Solaris. Upgrading to a new version of Solaris file.
What's different with PCs is that hardware makers don't make the OS, they BUY it from another company (Microsoft). Because of that, they pass on the cost to you and you should be able to get a refund.
As a anti-Microsoft PR show-off, this refund thing is fine, for the little good these things produce. However, I can't agree with people holding that there is a legal basis for it. The OS is just a piece of a system: manifacturers are free to choose which pieces their system is made of. We customers make are pro/cons and cost/benefit analysis and then decide if to buy the system or go elsewhere.
Requiring a refund for the OS is for me on the par with requiring a refund for the hard-disk.
Ciao
----
FB
Excellent ResellerRating:e ller_info.pl?sell er_id=1980
c es sor=pentium&display_size=15
http://www.resellerratings.com/s
Great price, Great product (similar to Alienware), no OS pre-installed.
http://www.powernotebooks.com/products.php3?pro
No I don't work there, just a well educated consumer (cheapskate).
This isn't going to go very far in court... It's going to go something like this:
Judge: "So Mr. Linux user, you bought a laptop that you knew comes with WindowsXP even through you didn't want it?"
Linux guy: "Yes"
Judge: "Can you buy a laptop that doesn't come with Windows? In fact, can't you buy a laptop that has Linux preinstalled?"
Linux guy: "Yes"
Judge: "So despite having a choice, and not being forced to pick the Windows laptop, you bought it anyway and think you're entitled to a refund?"
Linux guy "YESS!!!"
Judge: "Bailiff, please escort these Birkenstock-wearing geeks out of my courtroom"
Anyone tried buying a Powerbook or iMac without MacOS installed on it? I have. Tried to pick up an iMac at my local Apple Store. The sales person was reasonably helpful, going to the trouble of calling the head office to find out if such a thing was possible. This broke down when the best answer he could give me was 'We can't do it because we wouldn't know how much of a discount to give'; 'Surely you just deduct the number on that OSX box over there' I said. 'The retail and bundled versions are slightly different, and the pricing would be also, but we don't know what the bundled version costs' he replied. I shook my head and left the shop.
That's just semantics. Every component of a product costs the seller something, whether they made it in house or nto is irrelevant. When you buy an HP computer, you buy the whole package from HP. Period. That's it. You don't buy the individual pieces. Besides, do you honestly think that Mac physically manufactures every component? You think that they have a hard drive fabrication plant somewhere with a big Apple logo on the front? No way. You buy a Mac and try getting a refund on the hard drive and you'll be laughed right out of the store.
I think the cost of educating their employees for this one thing is more than the loss of the few customers by their employees not knowing. 50% loss of the 0.01% of their customers that would ask for this is nothing to them.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
What do you get if you're successful: the price that the OEM pays? I'd be interested to know how much this actually is and how much it varies between OEMs. How do you know how much to ask for in the first place?
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
The problem was that the default install had a bug in it that would crash the computer on shutdown or sleep. (Pretty annoying) Many other people have this computer where I live (a company 'bonus' of sorts), and as I occationally go out and 'fix' these things, I saw *alot* of them with no patch installed (clueless users with no internet access).
Since the patch was marginal at best, the eventual solution was to install windows 98 from a regular install disk. Since they have already paid for Windows (that doesn't work), can I give them a 'copy' under fair use rights? Would it be easier to get a refund for a windows 'install' that doesn't work?
Later, I'll tell you the story of the family that had *140 separate instances* of trojans running at the same time...
in case you haven't noticed its kinda hard to buy an x86 laptop without windows. and have fun building your own.
----
All of whose base are belong to the what-now?
Actually the MAIN difference is that you can rip out and sell the graphics card if you don't want it (considering it's not on-board of course:), while Microsoft is trying to restrict the re-selling of its packaged goods. IMO EULAs are not worth the bits they are written on. Once you purchase something, it is yours to do with as you please with a few exceptions. It doesn't really matter what MS tells you you can or you can't do. You've already paid for the damn thing. (Even if it was included) If Microsoft doesn't like that, fine. They can stop packing in their OS with computers.
Before you go and ship your copy of XP back to anybody for a refund, be sure the company that it to you will support your system if you have any problems. I have a laptop from one of the largest computer vendors in the world, and it came pre-installed with XP. It turned out that it had a hardware problem, it has some bad memory. I used some dianostic tools and indeed confirmed that it was a hardware problem. When I tried to call them up to get this fixed it did not go well.
Basically what it boiled down to is that they refused to provide any service under my warranty unless I ran the operating system that came with the laptop. I asked the guy, "is my warranty effectively invalid if I run Linux?". He said that, unfortunately, that was, in essence, the case.
So, just a word to the wise that if you don't install XP on your system, you may in fact be making your warranty irrelevent even for hardware specific problems.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
I've always had IBM (IBM as in I've Built Mine) machines, so I never had a windows to refund.
if I ever buy a notebook, I'll try to:
1- buy with linux pre-installed
2- buy one with _NO_ OS whatsoever.
if that's not possible, I'll use brasilian law, that forbides forced bundles such as this, and make them sell the machine without an OS.
Now, the big question.
i installed linux in a compaq iPaq. anyone succeeded in geting a refund for winCE ?
What ? Me, worry ?
If a car component failed as often as Windows has done over the years, then I shouldn't be forced to take it. Especially if the added cost can be 10-15% of the price of the system.
You want me to buy the package? No problem, just let me take the idiots who misengineered the thing to court in the same way that people have done over faulty automobile components.
See my journal, I write things there
Now, since what you bought was actually a copyrighted item, not a licensed item (after all, were you presented with a licensing agreement at the time of sale? Didn't think so. And those EULAs don't count - they're an attempt to impose a license after after the sale) you can do whatever you want with it, except make copies in violation of the copyright.
Buy the machine with XP, install linux, and sell your copy of XP to whomever you want. They're free to register it, or not.
If you don't believe me, google the quebec consumer protection act,
On one project I was an MSDN Universal subscriber. Yep, several thousand dollars per year!!!! I still had to buy a PC with a license because MS didn't want the machines being sold on without a licence later. I therefore had to 'eat' the depreceation of the software bundle even though the components I used were all licensed under MSDN.
See my journal, I write things there
The problem is that Microsoft refuses to honor the part of their own EULA that says customers are entitled to a refund for the OS if they do not agree to the terms of the license.
-John
It would be the best purchase of a MS product I ever made.
So, you are from France. Does this mean you are the pot, or the kettle?
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
There are great laptops WITHOUT AN OS at http://www.powernotebooks.com.
On top of great hardware at a great price, you also get the best customer service I've experienced (and I've bought from Dell, Toshiba and Micron). I am not associated with them in any way other than a happy customer.
I am typing this on a new Powernotebooks laptop running Red Hat 8.0. On the day I purchased it, the same hardware at Dell was selling for $350 more AFTER applying all their xmas discounts.
Don't buy from any vendor that won't unbundle the OS from their hardware. And tell them why you are not buying from them!
Perhaps he's commenting on the fact that you can be in the zero ($0) federal tax liability bracket (incomes up to $16,000 I think), not pay ANYTHING in federal income tax, and still get the earned income tax credit! and get tax refunds when they rarely occur as well!
Ah... clever. But, being from France, he's not black, he's noir, which, you must admit, is much, much cooler.
-I like my women like I like my tea: green-
Ill give myself the -1 Redundent if you accept it too because what you have said and what I am saying have been said probably a dozen times. The difference between every other bundle we run into is that Microsoft has said "If you dont like this, thats cool. Take it back to where you bought it and they will refund you the price of the OS." If VW said, if you use this radio then you agree to have it. If you dont want it, thats cool. Bring it back to us and we will refund you.
Do you see the difference?
The ultimate network admin tool needs HELP!
Honestly, it's this type of attitude which gives M$ the teeth it needs to hang on to the consumer's wallet. "...it's only going to be $30." is a pretty lame excuse.
If I go to a nice restaurant and have a $20 dinner and pay with a $50, you better believe I'm going to be waiting for my $30 in change.
Additionally, it's not so much the money in refund which makes the difference but the statement being made about refusing to take monopolistic abuse.
--If you code for the exceptions, the rules fall into place
You should realize though that most of these companies purchase the hardware from companies like Sager (Linux forum) and Compal, and those companies also supply the big-name guys like Compaq, HP, Dell, and Toshiba. So when you find some no-name laptop, it is usually equivalent to some branded laptop that never touched the hands of HP/Compaq/Toshiba/Dell. (And figuring out exactly *which* brand-name laptop it is equivalent to can be extremely difficult) Some of the below claim to manufacture their own notebooks, but what this means is that they buy them from Saeger/Compal or someone else, and put in a hard drive/CPU/RAM, which is why you will find identical looking cases at several of these vendors.
If you find a HP/Compaq/Toshiba/Dell/IBM/Sony branded laptop that has linux preinstalled, it means that the vendor paid for windows and removed it. I do not list them below because I think this is a despicable and deceptive practice. These manufacturers do not (yet) sell no-os or linux laptops. (But please, call them and ask!! The squeaky wheel gets the grease!) Also if you order a no-OS laptop, please request linux to be installed anyway, and tell them you'll pay for it! Let them know there is demand!
-- Bob
1^2=1; (-1)^2=1; 1^2=(-1)^2; 1=-1; 1=0.
So long as M$ insists that it is "licensing" the OS and not "selling" it, then you have two separate transactions. It is eminently fair to treat the hardware purchase as the first transaction and the presentation of a EULA as an offer to enter into a second transaction. You are then free to reject the offer and obtain a refund for the amount you paid in advance.
Laws affecting technology will always be bad until enough techies become lawyers.
Windows has filed lawsuits to prevent people from transferring liscenses (albiet only corporations so far).
M$'s position is that you are leasing the software for your own use, and that, as you have no real rights to it, you have no right to transfer your usage priviledges to anyone else.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
Ever buy something sight unseen? I have - you takes your chances. I agree that when you buy a laptop from a vendor that only supports Windows, "You bought your tickets, you knew what you were getting into..."
BUT.. The real issue here is the incredible language the makes up the EULA - that's the sight unseen part. Simply getting Windows with a purchase isn't the point - it's the bullsh*t language you are forced to agree to. Or not. That's where THEIR OWN STATED REFUND POLICY comes in.
Who is agreeing to this contract? You? The OEM? Both? Since everyone knows that Microsoft will sue YOU so much as look at you, why is it wrong to hold them to their own incredible refund language? Note: it's THEIR policy we hold them to. Linux people didn't just 'make this up.'
Forget the Penguinista arguments. This isn't being unreasonable, it's called preserving your rights.
"...Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam..."
Sitting around using my Linux computer has made me fat, pale, and unpopular. Nobody told me that being a computer geek would turn me into a loser. If only the FSF hadn't started on this whole "Free Software" thing I would be painfully using my annoying Windows machine only as much as I absolutely needed to. I would spend the rest of my time outside being sociable and doing fun activities. I'm suing because nobody told me that using a computer 24/7 turns you into a loser. I had no idea. I figured it was normal. Why don't they put warning labels on these things. Next thing you know, I'll be posting sarcastic self-referential messages on slashdot whoring for some cheap karma. Then my conversion will be complete.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
I don't think you can buy a media kit from Microsoft without purchasing software licenses in the same order. At least, this is what they told us where I work. The reason, of course, would be so that people aren't installing an unlicensed $25 copy of Windows on every computer at the office. The threat of piracy is also increased due to the fact that the Keyless Media Kits are intended to be sold to companies, and DO NOT require activation so that deployment is easier.
Unauthorized feeding of Metroids is strictly prohibited.
$30 is a nice dinner somewhere with my girlfriend. $30 is the next step up for a lot of pieces of hardware, too.
Why pay for something if you're not going to use it?
But most importantly*, it's $30 that isn't going to Redmond.
* (Yes, it's more important to me to cut MSFT off from my wallet than it is to have a nice evening out with my GF. I thought it sounded strange at first, too.)
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
You could buy a laptop from somewhere else.
However if you insist on having a Sony or IBM laptop, you are restricting your choices. But you still have options, I was listing them.
You are not being forced to buy Windows. You are chosing to buy it. You could buy someone elses laptop, ask them to change it, force them to change it, or simply not buy one.
You choose not to buy another laptop. They don't see enough demand to change it. You don't have the time/money to force them to change. and you don't want to go without.
Seems like it is your problem.
I take the value of what I want, and the cost of the product (with the crap I don't want). If the value to me exceeds the purchase price, I buy it. If the products cost exceeds my perceived value of it, I do not buy it.
You have this option too.
Then you're shopping in the wrong place. What you need to do is buy at a shop that doesn't put it on in the first place!
You're using her as bait, Master!
wow, they have common sense and a fairly reasonable drinking age up north.
i'd be curious how much business oracle, etc does with companies there. business server software is typically you buy it, you eat it. i've always wondered what happened to that software investment when a company goes out of business. are they then aloud to sell off the licenses? i don't think the vendors would go for that, and i imagine their eula's prohibit any transer. ever. under penalty of deat^^^^^becoming a dot com.
Buying a laptop (or just about anything really) without seeing, touching, holding it first is right out. Do I like the way the keyboard is setup? Does it feel like 10 year olds put it together with plastic screws? Will the display hinge break in 3 weeks? I shop around, feel things out, and then I purchase.
For me this is why the Windows refund is important. If I happen to like the Sony VAIO series (which I do, 3 lbs laptops are important to the constant traveller) I should not have to spend money on an OS I will not use just for the privilege. But for me it is more than that. I do not want a license for Windows. Why let a corporation declare me as one of their users?
Somebody earlier made a car analogy. I actually quite like it. The OS is an add-on, like leather seats or the nifty Bose sound system. On most models of car you can opt not to have them. Just like a cigarette lighter. Yes some of the high end systems "force" you to purchase the leather but in general people buying them do not mind. But there are reasonable models available otherwise. In laptops we either buy sight unseen from unknown web vendors or we go to the nice store and buy what we like.
Personally I would not mind waiting 3 weeks for a laptop if it came configured how I like so it is not the immediate nature of the store or the purchase constraining me. It is the lack of real choice.
Show me a 3 to 3.5 lb. laptop (with a battery, one of the models mentioned in the comments here did not support an internal battery) that I can buy sans OS or with some version of Linux. Then point out some vendor who carries them in real stores and not just in faceless online retailers.
For desktops I have always built my own. Even used to work at a place that built customs for people (OS was always an option). It is specifically laptops that are the annoyance because we are forced to treat them like a Lexus.
(As a side note I understand that many OEMs were charged a mere 25 US cents for Windows 95 when it came out. So yes, this is more than just money here.)
The problem is obvious - it requires the involvement of France.
Well, we've dealt with this issue in the past. If you're having trouble with France, just go through Belgium!
How naive can you be? The $400 bill was obviously only for Gateway's usage. I bet, after all was said and done, GeekZilla and his friend just split the $400, and had a good laugh at gateway's expense ;-)
Say no to software patents.
What ever happened with IBM's announcement two years ago that they were going to offer Linux pre-installed on A- and T-series Thinkpads? Surely they no longer have any financial reason not to offer Linux with the DOJ's settlement.
Erik
OS (I wish I was Windows) X
Wow, I can't believe your comment got past '0' with such obvious misinformation. If you're this ignorant, maybe you should look into the history of the two OSes and determine from that exactly who's been copying from whom. Or, and this is the more likely case, you're just a troll. If that's the case, do the rest of us a favor and just STFU.
I'd suggest you don't use Slashdot as your only news source, or you will suffer permanent brain damage.
(I'm putting QNX on it, for embedded development. QNX, incidentally, has become more friendly to Linux programmers. They now use the GNU toolchain. If you're not doing real-time work, QNX now works a lot like Linux. If you are doing real-time work, it works a lot better than Linux.)
Assuming Windows OEM costs $75, that $399 could be $324 without MS Windows. For your $399 example that is roughly 19% of the total purchase price.
Compare equivelent Walmart Microtels
With Windows
Without Windows
$100 difference which is a 33% markup.
Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
My guess is, it's the same here (Switzerland). Although the EULA contains all sort of bullshit, I don't think that they can prevent you from reselling the license. Most European countries have even stronger consumer protection.
What does prevent it however, are the fine folks @ Microsoft, who extort your OEM in adding a crippled copy of XP, which only insalls on - say - Fujitsu-Siemens computers and then it just formats away and provides you with the base install of your computer. (Moderators note, they call that recovery disk. You might as well mod Microsoft as funny.)
Of course such a crippled version is just about useless and it's resell value is probably zilch.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
If a large quanity of people stopped buy computers from companies that refuse to sell without an operating system you would of made a difference by now. Money talks!!!
There are lots of good white box or small computer companies with all classes of equipment that sell computers with no operating system. If there market share was to increase the big vendor well notice, they don't want to lose your money. But as long as you continue to buy from them and only whine about the MS tax they won't change. They will take your money and go to the bank.
As the old saying goes "Money talks and bullshit walks".
How would you prove you are a lawyer? I can say I am a lawyer and spout all kinds of info.
OK, maybe the next one for $15?
Let's look for something with a key...OEM or not. Ah, here's one for $85, including free shipping!
Hmmm. So, it's not XP Pro it's XP Home. Wait, a few blocks down here's XP Pro for $107.89!
No CD. Hmmm. OK, we'll look for a full (OEM or not) Windows XP Pro CD with a valid key. What does that go for? $135;
...for the OEM version.
A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
Lucky for you, they actually sold you the radio. That means you own the radio, and you can sell it if you don't like it.
When you buy a computer with Windows, they are only selling you a contract. If you don't sign the contract, you don't own anything. You have no rights to the software, and can't sell it to anyone else. That's why the contract explicitly states that you only need to pay for the license if you agree to its terms!
If I remember correctly, last time the Microsoft presscontact made the papers with: "We were expecting a lot of people, but nobody showed up."
So here in the Netherlands, feel free to go to MS Headquarters (I believe in Hoofddorp).
Roger.
I tried to make a stink about this in various enthusiast forums, but no one really cares (except for here, possibly).
Windows refunds will become a moot point as this trend continues. Although folks are familar with WinModems, I just got a machine from Dell that:
* Included a sound card that only ran under Windows XP. It just wouldn't run under Linux no matter what I did to the driver.
* Has a chipset that recent Linux kernels cannot understand - so no DMA for hard drives, and no USB2.0 support.
I rectified the first issue by complaining long and loud to Dell, and they finally sent me a new sound card, identical chips on board, that worked fine in all operating systems. I'm hoping that a new kernel will eventually fix the chipset issue.
The machine is a Dimension 4550, which should be about as bog standard as they get. This isn't a laptop, BTW; it is a 'normal' desktop machine, and the first that I've seen that is at least partially Linux incompatible.
At any rate, this refund issue is going to go away as the larger OEMs introduce models tied to specific versions of Windows. Time to start investigating other options.
jonathan
> Its like car insurance, you have it,
> you pay for it up front, the fact that
> you don't have a car crash doesn't
> mean that you can say it wasn't used
> and ask for a refund.
That's not a good analogy. If you have a Microsoft OS, it will crash.
With Paladium, it does not matter if you refuse to be bound by the bogus EULA - the spy is in the hardware and it won't work without it. This will be very tricky to get rid of and we are more than halfway there.
Shudder.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
As any reader of Tiger Direct knows, that's a violation of anti-trust laws. Get it in writing, they are breaking the law as much as a printer vendor invalidating a waranty for using a different ink or a vehicle maker for using a different brand of lubricant. M$ and their slaves would not break the law in writing would they?
I'm never going to buy a laptop from any company that forces me to use M$ or pay for it or in anyway have anything to do with M$. This in itself seems like a violation of anti-trust laws, and it is.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
"Today only, there is a double your money back satisfaction guarantee for linux. If not fully satisfied, you can take advantage of this one time offer."
I'm going to write me a minivan!!
(Ha! I made an obscure Dilbert reference! All the karma will be MINE!! BUAHAHA!)
That's not true, you can lug around a nice big 12 cell pack! I got my sites set on a lead acid battery instead.
But at least they "boost into Windows to make sure each components are compatible".
Nice components too! Like a winmodem. Oh dear, the "choice of opperating systems" has nothing but Windoze. I've been trolled.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
My computer came with Red Hat. Where can I send the software for a refund?
This is why it's so funny to listen to companies like Micro$hit talking about "licensing violations". Copyright violations, maybe, but only for illegal copies, not transfers of the original software.
Seriously, doesn't it make Canuckistan an interesting place to live?
[Dell] Ok.
[Techie] Well, ok, I'll buy the bundle but them I'll send the licence that I don't need.
[MS] No! You can't! It is illegal!
[Techie] How so? I can sell a DVD/book/tape/Music CD that I own.
[MS] Well, I will write down in my EULA that you can't. Take it or leave it.
[Gov] Err ... you can't do that, you know ...
[MS] Oh, bother that, okay, I'll put an opt-out clause in the EULA, too (to themselves: nobody is going to use it, anyway)
[Gov] Ok then, go ahead
[Techie] Well, then I opt-out and want a refund
[MS & Dell] What !??!
Ciao
----
FB
Judge: "So Mr. Linux user, you bought a laptop that you knew comes with WindowsXP even through you didn't want it?"
Linux guy: I did want Windows XP. However, when I opened the computer it tried to restrain my rights after the purchase, which is clearly illegal. The computer did however give me the option that I could decline the EULA and demand a full refund. However the company refused to honor their EULA, so here I am.
Judge: So you didn't do this just to piss them off?
Linux guy (trying to keep a straight face): No, your honor. *snicker*
Judge: I don't believe you for a second. But you're still entitled to that refund.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Which one? Unless you get specific, they won't change.
I still don't buy the "they cannot bundle" argument, but the EULA argument is compelling. I could find a copy of the Win95 handbook that came with my old laptop. On page 1 there is the EULA. It says:
So, they promised a refund. They should comply.
Ciao
----
FB
1.) MS Windows installed (dual boot), in which case I pay Bill Gates
2.) No MS Windows, in which case I pay Bill Gates.
The Vendor told me he was NOT able to obtain ANY laptops without MS on them, so had to pass the MS tax on to me, with the understanding that maybe somewhere somehow I might get a refund; it happened once but don't get your hopes up. So if anybody has had success with refunds from buying VAIO's please let me know. Also if there is any Refund Day protests in the Wash. DC area please let me know.
P.S. To the people in this discussion who say "vote with your dollars!": Please check here to see the winner of your proposed election.
chris{AT}dtm.ciw.edu
Going to small claims court REALLY isn't that big of a deal, you don't need a lawyer, there's no jury, just you, the company you are suing, and the judge. It costs something to file a claim, no matter where you live, but really not very much, and you can usually get the claim fee back if you win.
Just take your receipt and your laptop with no windows on it to the court, along with the EULA. You've got a good chance of winning, and merely filing the lawsuit will probably prompt the company to settle out of court. Make sure they pay your filing fee, of course.
If you have to miss a day of work to go to court, in some places you can sue for that too (assuming it's an issue where you work).
To reiterate: small claims is really no big deal, and the company probably won't let it get to that point anyway. Too bad you have to sue the vendor, and don't get to drag M$ into small claims court. That would be too cool.
WWJD? JWRTFA!
I hope so. I'll bleed Microsoft dry for the time XP SP1 munged by system.
"You're never ready, just less unprepared."
..last summer had an aquaintance of mine purchase a shrink wrapped XP box off the shelf at his local retailer. He opened the box, but hadn't installed it yet when he started actually reading about XP and decided he didn't want it. So he tries to return it, first try was a no go, they refused, as the shrinkwrap was opened. He asked me, I said go back and complain that you had no way to read the eula until you opened it, that you didn't agree with it, and never installed it, which was the plain simple truth. He goes back, argued that point at the service desk, mentioned he just might want to take it to court, gets the store manager finally, runs the same thing past him, and the upshot was he got his full money back.. I don't know if this is common or not and I know it isn't relevant to a bundled package with a new computer, but still goes to show it's possible at least.
They called me because the computer was doing strange things, like programs opening, windows moving, weird sounds and error messages. Along with all the usual crap (edutainment *ugh, 9.95 games from Walmart), they were also running MSN Messenger, AOL IM, ICQ and Kazaa in all its spyware popup glory.
I ran AdAware and sat transfixed as the *running processes* counter went up and up and UP. I just started laughing, I was so amazed. After I had printed out the list ('twas a keeper), I explained what was wrong. I let them know that their computer was '0wN3D' ;)
They started blaming each other for 'messing up the computer'. The funny thing was that Mom and Dad were just as clueless as the kids. I put a stop to the blame game, and explained what a virus, trojan, and spyware was, and how to avoid them.
I wiped the drive (no way was I going to take chances with the Most Compromised System award winner), installed win 98 (no restore disk!), installed AdAware, ZoneAlarm, and Norton Antivirus.
I explained to the most savvy of the girls how to update the sig files, set it to go automatically, and explained what was going to happen when/if any of these programs red lighted something, and how to deal with it.
I explained Kazaa, and gave some alternatives (no Lite version at that time). I then got the hell out of there, holding a 20 page list of trojans and viruses.
Later, I'll tell you about the woman who thought the Space Theme was a virus. ;)
Two points:
1) It would cost a lot more than you could hope to get back to sue them. The only possible way is a class action law suit. But...
2) The mfgr.s have agreed, whether in formal contract or not, to act as the agent for MS in coercing all computer users to pay for MS software whether the users use it or not.
3) If you call with a tech. support problem, their answer is (no matter what the problem):
a) you must agree to whatever conditions MS chooses to impose.
b) you must wipe all of your data off of your hard disk.
c) Eventually answer: "Sorry. I can't answer that question" (Well, ok, step c isn't always followed.)
You can have a shorted power cord, and they won't talk to you before you format your hard disk. (Which you can't, of course.)
So. I won't say that the mfgr.s are the greater evil here. They are merely acting in the role of hired goons. But they started doing so willingly. And they continue doing it for their own financial gain to the net detriment of their customers.
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Damn, I need a GF who would consider a $30 dinner nice...
(Can I borrow yours?)
Seems fair.
Prices for friends:
Windows, $400 Linux: free
Prices for foes:
Windows, $50 Linux: $800
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
But you could have asked for no peas when you ordered couldn't you?
kc8apf
--good for you,congrats! I have a firm belief that commercial closed source propietary software should be like any other consumer product, ie, have a warranty with it and be treated like any other product out there. If it's defective or if you don't agree with their obscured license you can't even see until after you open it up or try to install it, it should be easy to take back. I think if software companies were held to the same standards as a durable good, that we'd see a lot less releases but of much better quality. Right now they just state "too bad this stuff may or may bnot work but we're gonna charge you hundreds of dollars anyway and if you get owned or this stuff actually don't work as advertised or winds up costing you a ton of money then tough luck and by the way we reserve the right to hack your machine whenever we feel like it". That's their EULA broken down and distilled into normal english, more or less. Heck with that noise, that's the single biggest problem software has now, IMO. It's also the main reason I switched to open software, I am geting more or less the same "caveat emptor" type experience with my choices now but at least I know people are working on it because they WANT to as opposed to people who just HAVE to and it becomes drudgery and they usually have zero control over what actually gets released. I feel sorry for the programmers stuck because of economic realities working for these big companies, because I bet a lot of times they know that "whatever" isn't finished yet and buggy, but watch it go out the door.
I've said it several times before here on slashdot,and this is just one example of many but a large and common one, for instance I would have much rather seen microsoft be a decent successful company with 20 billion in the bank instead of 40, and that other 20 billion gone into quality control and useability by choice in the matter and corporate ethics. I just don't agree with the get out of jail free card that their EULA represents being "accepted". I have heard all the arguments 'well, just don't use it" etc. I am fully aware of that, my point is, it's bad precedent. We have consumer protection regs for a reason, they have been proven to be necessary else industries gradually all go to a "screw you" mindset and monopolies. I don't see where software companies get away with it when every other industry has laws to protect the consumer. I mean, how would it be to buy cars with no warranty, or no protection? If ALL the cars came that way? Would that really be a choice then? Maybe that's not a direct analogy but close enough for my point.
I agree, sue the bastards.
Claiming that using Linux invalidates your warranty is like claiming that installing OpenOffice invalidates your warranty.
It's just software Does the packaging of the product clearly state that you may not install any software other than what is supplied? Probably not. That would be silly. Linux is just another piece of software that you chose to use instead of Windows.
Just as if I chose to use Netscape instead of Internet Explorer. They cannot void your warranty for that. It's the same thing.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
Then why does the EULA say it is an agreement between MS and the end user? It is MS, not the OEM, that is offering the contract and the refund.
Keep the OS and sell it to a friend or an acquaintance
That is a violation of the EULA. The EULA only allows to options: use it after agreeing to the terms or return it to the OEM for a refund.
Put it on Ebay if need be
And, Ebay will pull the auction down. MS alleges that you do not own the copy and Ebay will take down any auction that MS complains about.
I feel like picking a fight with everyone who thinks they are right. - Rainmakers
and $800 for his enemies.
No, for your enemies, you install winblows for free. Serves 'em right.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
Waltc: Thanks for clearly laying out the steps in the purchasing process & for the advice.
True my money goes to EL, immediately, but there is a portion of the money I spent (the MS tax) which goes to MS via the "chain of purchasing" you describe. Ie, the total cost to me would be lower if not for this tax.
I would add that perhaps the reason Sony (or other hardware vendors) equip all their products with MS is that MS has an illegal monopoly and can force Sony to do so by not selling to Sony if they don't. (I don't know for a fact that this happens with Sony but I believe similar things have happened with other vendors)
Selling my copy of the OS may be difficult, in addition to the Ebay reason mentioned above, because everybody already has the OS on their computer and there seems to be little demand for it (though I have not tried this). Also why should I only earn 50% of the cost I payed for a product, when in fact I never used nor wanted to buy the product in the first place?
So the software is FREE, but the service is paid for. Thus the service enables the "free" software to be used and you have paid for a period of n to use that software. This could make getting a refund harder as the service is provided by Microsoft and not the OEM, also as its paid up front from the OEM to Microsoft it blurs how refunds can be obtained. Its like car insurance, you have it, you pay for it up front, the fact that you don't have a car crash doesn't mean that you can say it wasn't used and ask for a refund.
;)
If the initial software cost is 0, then the problem goes away. Remember, the reason we need refunds is that the OEM _paid_ money to MS for the copy of windows that comes with the machine. If the OEM pays nothing to MS to put that software on the computer, the laptop wouldn't cost any more than it would if it came with no OS at all. Sure, imaging the drive costs money, but that cost is very small per drive next to a $200+ windows license.
From there, there are only two options that the OEM can offer the consumer: a laptop that comes with a monthly bill to use windows, or one that comes with a prepaid usage period. If no windows time comes with the laptop, then getting a "refund" is as simple as calling up MS and canceling the subscription. If it comes with, say, a one year subscription to "Windows DRM 2003", getting a refund means the consumer calling up the OEM and telling them she doesn't want to pay for the remaining windows time and would like a refund. This is pretty much the situation we're in right now, except you can turn the laptop on to make sure it works without forfeiting your option to get a refund, before you make the call.
The real problem is not getting the refund. There are two major issues here that need more attention:
-Subscription-based software licenses are totally unacceptable. Think about it -- subscription software means paying a monthly fee just so everything keeps working. This is more like a protection racket than a maintenance contract. Yes, that subscription may include updates and fixes, but if the latest version of windows comes with a serious bug that allows a web page to delete arbitrary files on a user's hard disk *cough*Windows XP*cough*, one of two things needs to happen:
A) The fix should be free to the end user, maintenance contract or not.
or
B) Consumers should be made aware that they're buying software with serious and easily exploitable security flaws.
Maybe both. Also, subscription softare (as MS defines it) tries to work in a manner contrary to information physics: it's not natural for software to stop working when the user stops paying -- a simple crack and it behaves like regular software. It may be illegal to crack windows in such a way, but it's possible to do so. What we need to be doing is making sure new business models work _with_ information physics rather than try to fight it. For instance, ransom licenses work particularly well (the ones that do not release the full version of a piece of software until a certain total has been paid by the public). It's not possible to crack and pirate software that hasn't been released, assuming the software company doesn't do something stupid like put an iso of the cd on an unpassworded ftp account and then allow that information to be leaked *cough*Windows XP*cough*.
-The second thing we need to keep in mind that the hardware underlying a subscription-based version of windows may not boot anything else. No linux for you. TCPA/Palladium is bad, remember that.
They run the website condemning Linux on Linux servers.
.Net server with the Nimda virus embedded in a help file!
Microshit sent out the Korean version of it's
Yeah, Bill, real helpful of you. ROFL
Internet Explorer puts over 2 megs of information in the windows system registry!
Office puts multitudes of settings and nformation in over 25 different keys in the registry!
Reference technet articles:
Q263470 - This article tells you that to manually uninstall IE from Windows 95/98, you need to spend hours on their several page procedure, then reinstall the operating system. It also states that IE cannot be removed from Windows ME. This despite their antitrust lawsuit.
Q235888 - In this article, Microshit declares how they will not support their own recent product.
Q276304 - And I quote, "Your password must be at least 18770 characters and cannot repeat any of your previous 30689 passwords. Please type a different password. Type a password that meets these requirements in both text boxes." This is a wonderful example of the clear and precise error messages that we receive from Microshit products...NOT!
The excuse given by one of the chief officers of Microshit in court during the antitrust lawsuit as to why they shouldn't go open source was essentially that their own security was so sucky and weak that the US Gov't and military's top secret info would be at great risk!
All Microshit products are a huge, handicapping malignancy in technology today, including and especially the EULA because they don't even honor it! Kudos to all the people who can stand the POS Microshit products they pirate! Why should any consumer honor the EULA if the manufacturer won't even honor it?!?
I think you are being both harsh and unfair; you're also incorrect - they aren't even asking you to pay for Windows, they will use a license key YOU provide. They are easily in the top 1% of vendors when it comes to not supporting the MS hegemony - most simply say "it comes with Windows, buy it or f**k off."
:-)
They are company at least willing to consider way to not have you pay for Windows, but they need to make a profit too - shipping only an installed machine is wholly sensible of them, and they are quite honest and pragmatic; the last thing they need is Joe public costing them hours of support time because he can't run "make bzImage". It sounds like if they got enough Linux requests, they'd start shipping it.
A lot of small retailers used to ship bare boxes and just turn a blind eye to the fact that customers would pirate Win98 (or indeed, some would provide a "blank" CD-R with the machine).
For example, Sony, by contrast, offers a bunch of spiel attempting to fend off the EULA refund clause with their laptops, along the lines of "we wnat you to have the best possible experience using our laptop, and that will only happen if you get Windows with it". Maybe they think everyone likes blue
BTW, small OEM's are not compelled to pay per box - they pay per license.
The "pay for every box, Win or not" thing was a device MS used to push OS/2 etc. off the market; they'd offer large OEM's a deal whereby Win3.x was (e.g.) $29 a box if you paid per box, $79 if you paid per license. Well, guess what they chose....
IIUC one of the few successful parts of the toothless anti-trust suit was to rule this anti-competitive, and they can no longer make this incentive.
So, Dell doesn't have to pay for Win98 when selling you a Linux box any more, but because so few people want Linux boxes from them, they may decide on their own to only offer bundles with WinXP - IIRC Dell has stopped selling Red Hat desktops, and only offers servers with Linux. The servers are, however, a fair bit cheaper (OEM Win2k small server license is around $300)
Whether the law conisiders you are the legal owner of the copy of software is irrelevant. Ms alleges that you are not. eBay acts on that allegation and pulls the auction without notifying you. So, selling it on eBay is not an option.
I feel like picking a fight with everyone who thinks they are right. - Rainmakers
Clinton had just as many guns, and used them to bomb factories in the Sudan and tents in Afganistan, one is a leader the other was not..
But are you able to get a refund on XP in this situation?
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Art. 1726: The seller is bound to warrant the buyer that the property and its accesories are, at the time of the sale, free of latent defects which render it unfit for the use for which it was intended or which so diminish its usefulness that the buyer would not have bought it or paid so high a price if he had been aware of them.
Art. 1728: If the seller was aware or could not have been unaware of the latent defect, he is bound not only to restore the price, but to pay damages suffered by the buyer.
Art. 1730: The manufacturer, any person who distributes the property under his name or as his own, and any supplier of the property, in particular the wholesaler and the importer, are also bound to warrant the buyer in the same manner as the seller.
Pretty clear-cut here. M$ knew about bugs in its' programs, and didn't disclose them. Everyone in the supply chain is legally liable. But it also means that the liability for freely distributing open-source software is probably zero, because art. 1726 applies only to items that are sold, not given away. Now, if you charged for distributing open-source software, you're liable.
You are assuming that EULAs are binding contracts. Even the courts are divided on this issue. Just because MS says it is a license does not automactially make it one.
Again, the proper place to make the complaint is Sony, in this case--they are the ones who originally purchased the OS, and who profit from its resale to a VAR.
I would agree with your postion if it was a straightforward purchase. But, it is not. MS alleges that you did not purchase the copy of software installed on your comptuer. They are the ones that wrote the EULA which explicitly says it is an agreement between MS and the end user. They are the ones that promise the refund which is a necessary condition for the EULA to even be considered a binding contract.
If MS wants to pretend it is a contract, then they should be obligated to follow the terms that they wrote.
I feel like picking a fight with everyone who thinks they are right. - Rainmakers
My God, do want some cheese with that whine?If you are going to claim in a post that I have a low IQ at least spell check it.
If the companies involved in the deal did not offer you any possibility whatsoever to return the OS, well and dandy, but they are binding themselves to give you your money back if you don't accept their terms.
So if you buy a car and you don't like the engine that comes with it, you think you are going to get the dealer to refund you the cost of it?
Quit your bitchin' and don't buy a product that comes with Windows.
Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government.
Next time you act like a party hack try to at least know what youre talking about first..
Monopoly shmonopoly.
Buy (or build) a white box without an OS and stop your bitching.
If third world nations can do this why can't you?
-ted
>Next time you act like a party hack try to at least know what youre talking about first..
You mean, ignore little facts like some military ballots being sent after the election ended, when it became clear how close the voting in Florida would be?
Although, I know if I mailed in my ballot and it wasn't recieved until after the election, I wouldn't expect it to be counted...
You know, they say the use of profanity/namecalling indicates that one has lost the argument. Personally, I voted for candidates from both parties (and some third party candidates as well), but I call 'em as I see 'em.
Twenties Retirement
Addition: I doubt if anyone thinks that legality had anything to do with what either side was trying. Both Bush and Gore were trying to count the ballots they thought would help them and throw out the ones they thought wouldn't. Bush was just better at it.
Twenties Retirement
Again noe of the military ballots were sent after the election, they were all sent B$ election day as the postmark indicated. Its funny you say that you would not expect a ballot sent on time but recieved late would not count, but you seem to think that if you fill out a ballot incorrectly it should??