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Has the Quality of Consumer Electronics Declined?
NewtonsLaw asks: "With Christmas coming up I dare say that lots of people are going to spend big bucks on consumer electronics in the next few weeks. This column asks an interesting question -- are consumer electronics manufacturers sacrificing quality and reliability for an endless list of features? If you're like me, you've probably got a TV, VCR or other appliance you bought over 5 years ago which is still going strong -- but much of the stuff you've bought in the past 2-3 years is already giving trouble. What's more, it seems to be the big-name manufacturers such as Sony who are most affected by this decline in standards. I'd love to hear the experiences of other Slashdot readers in an effort to get as many data-points as possible. Are you better off buying a $49 DVD player on the expectation that it will only last a year or so -- or do lay out two or three times that amount something made by a big-name manufacturer in the (possibly vain) hope it will provide superior performance and last longer?"
In America at least, I think the struggling economy is mostly to blame. Manufacturers are just trying to cut costs to bring their profit margins up, and one of the easiest ways of cutting costs is cutting quality.
This seems to be a disturbing and all to common trend, but hopefully they (manufacturers) will get bit in the ass by customer support and replacement costs, causing them to rethink their strategy!
I find that most often I end up learning from necessity, rather than for enjoyment.
The quality has declined across the board, but high quality parts are still available. As demand from retailers like M$, Wal-Mart, Best Buy and others increases for discounted electronics, the supply likewise increases.
However, as more and more people become "Tech Savvy" there are more manufacturers willing to produce the high quality, awesome electronics that modern geeks will shell out the cash to buy.
So has overall quality declined, maybe...but the good stuff is still there to be had. Just don't go cheap on everything you buy.
For some reason most of my home electronic equipment comes from Sony. I have a stereo, a surround receiver and stuff like that. And, oh yeah, a Sony Ericsson phone. They've never caused me any problems ever. Just plain works. Not the best gear out there, but good value for money. Perhaps other brands are worse, I don't know.
Ciryon
I would say that overall, Sony equipment is made to last. It's not the most feature-rich for the dollar, but it tends to work for a long time. I had a Sony boombox during the entire 80s. Never missed a note. Their car audio is ugly and underpowered, but also works forever. Samsung is on the opposite end of the spectrum. Sure I can play Nuon games on my DVD player, but what good is that if it freezes right before the $$$-shot in my favorite pr0n?
If you fall off a building, go real limp, because maybe you'll look like a dummy and people will be like hey, free dummy
Example two Useless, gimmicky 'features' that are software defined. Not very durable. No clicky feel, due to cheapness of rubber dome caps. Will most likely last until you spill Coke all over it.
As an avionics technician I can attest that consumer electronics is not the only field suffering. I work for a company that prides itself on quality, and most of the new units see my bench
less than a year after manufacture, however there is a slow flow of instruments built 10 years ago that are just now seeing the shop for the first time. Kind of a horrifying thought for you while riding on that airplane
Actually, I'm a big fan of 20 year old hardware, where it can be used. I find solid state electronics from the 1970's to be absoutely reliable. But I tend to agree, consumer level electronics, by and large, are garbage unless you're willing to shop somewhere other than Circuit Shitty or Worst Buy.
As far as computer components go, they've been garbage for years. Everything past the old IBM XT's have been plastic disposable junk, btu for good reason. Most people upgrade so quickly, there's no reason to make good, lasting components. As far as computer stuff, I buy the cheapest I can find, and just throw it out every so often.
I have found again and again that you get what you pay for...both in terms of functionality and life-expectancy.
Feed the Fury
---- El diablo esta en mis pantalones! Mire, mire!
We, as consumers, by buying the cheapest, lowest-quality stuff out there, are responsible for this. The old adage is true: You get what you pay for. As more and more companies keep cutting costs to satisfy out demands for cheap products by using low-cost parts and low-cost labor(China), this is just going to get worse and worse.
I swear the quality of these has declined over the past 10 years. There used to be a time when I could reliably transfer a file between machines on these. Now I open a new packet and 4/10 won't work.
--
0x00
I wonder what role, if any, those play into this? Would manufacturers, as a whole, be more inclined to produce lower quality goods with the justification that consumer protection plans are out there? Or would retailers balk at this... or push up the price on those... or use quality as a major selling point for these plans?
I think though, in almost all goods, there is the perception that older is more reliable. This isn't anything new, but is it really becoming true right now?
Long, long ago, there used to be umbrella repair shops. Eventually umbrellas became so cheap that you just throw them away when they break (which happens pretty fast) and just buy new ones.
It's much the same with consumer electronics. For example, VCR/TV repair places in my town are either struggling or have already gone out of business. Things are so cheap these days that you might as well buy a new one when the old one breaks.
So, basically quality has indeed gone down, but prices have dropped accordingly.
We live in a disposable society. Disposable cell phones seem like a huge waste to me, but they're cheap.
Hrm... seems like /. answered its own question.
Quality of new items seems to be lower than it used to be. I own tons of consumer electronics devices, way more than the average person, I'm sure. The things I buy now don't last as long. I've been through 3 dvd players in 4 years, and they were all over $150. Yet I have a set of speakers that are 12 years old (!) and still work perfectly.
There's also no point in fixing any of these items, everything is soldered onto one PCB board. If one trace comes loose... Time for a new unit.
Check out a Technics turntable...
Technics SL-1200 MK2
You'll find a pair of these in pretty much any club in the entire world. The design hasn't changed at all in over 20 years. It's a beautiful piece to behold, it's built like a tank. It weighs 26 pounds. And every single component, motors, tonearm, etc -- can all be replaced. These things are built to last.
This is how things used to be built. I can't think of anything new that I own that has the build quality of my turntables. And that's sad.
We've turned into a disposable society.
The endless lightbulb - the myth of the bulb that would never go out and stay strong forever.
Can this be done? I do not know, but I do know that nobody would make them because of being predisposed to a declining market.
The same is about electronics.
What we see depends on mainly what we look for. -- John Lubbock Now search for that bug slave!
The "good" stuff is still good. We just got more "cheap" stuff that does the basic stuff only the "good" stuff used to do.
The best example is the stand-alone $49 DVD player. To somebody that is not a total video freak, the $49 does the same job as a $200 unit. My first DVD player cost me $300, a Toshiba that worked for over 2 yrs without any problem. My second DVD player was for my PC and cost me $80. My third one was a stand alone that came as part of a Teac receiver combo and cost $150 with 5.1 speakers plus FM radio (no, they don't sound like Bose, but dammit, that's $150 for a 5.1 home theater). I bought another combo like that one for $130. My wife buys $49 DVD players for my little kid so if they break out of warranty we are out of just $50 (a cheap VCR costs more).
Each and every DVD player I have bought looks exactly the same on my piece of crap TV. Every one. The original Toshiba was the only one with a decent remote, that is the only thing I have to say on its defense. Each of the $49 DVD players we have bought can read VCD and MP3 CDRs and CDRWs. The last one she got is smaller than our digital cable box, and weights maybe 1/3rd of what my xbox does.
Notice I said this only applies if you are not a video freak. To us normal Joes, a DVD plays the same regardless, and the only thing you can do to make it better is to get a better TV.
There are many more examples like this, but to me the most obvious is the cheapo DVD players.
Pedro
----
The Insomniac Coder
Alot of the electronics in a $75 DVD player is just as reliable as the components found in a $250, shiny silver deal with a great big animated LCD on it and a million buttons. The same goes for most electronics, be it the controller for a laser printer or some random PCB in a VCR.
I refuse to buy most big brand names now. I've been burnt by just about everyone, mostly recently Microsoft and my xbox that died 3 weeks after the warranty was up.
My dad has a Mitsubishi 36 inch TV that he bought close to 14 years ago. It still works like a champ, no problems at all. I've got a 3 year old 36 inch Sony that I'm already seeing problems with.
I can't say exactly why this is happening, but I can venture some guesses. The quick buck is killing our economy. Everyone wants that easy money. No one takes pride in their products and builds them to last.
I recently looked at the feature lists of some home stereo equipment and was shocked. Most of the stuff on your average home stereo will never be used but you can't find simpler equipment. Additionally we are still using some pretty ugly wiring schemes for home audio. The back of my home theatre setup is insane! I have wires everywhere and while I'm usually good at labeling them, it's still a nightmare to work with.
No one is making these things better. They are making them cheaper and more complex. This goes against what people actually want. Features are nice, yes, but not at the expense of quality and ease of use.
A lotta times, you can find out who actually does manufacturing-- and this means you can get the same product under a different name at less cost. I dig sony, but they mass produce a lot of electronics, and a lot of the time you're just buying the name... They outsource manufacturing for business reasons. I think this is especially true in say, computer monitors- a lot of manufacturing is done by manufacturers, and the same hardware gets released under a whole host of names. Sometimes the packaging is different tho- so if you're buying the sony for the sleek look, this might not work out. When I go to buy something like a DVD player or TV or monitor, I find out who manufactures the one I want if if there are any hardware clones out there... or I take my EE degree and build my own ;-)
I'm not really sure how to answer that question. What I've seen lately is bolder, riskier products coming out.
You all remember that voice activated R2D2 toy that Slashdot reported a month or two ago? I bought one of those. I have to say, I'm rather impressed with what it can do. It's voice recognition is pretty good, and it's a fun little toy to play with. Is it going to survive a drop off the bed? Probably not. I'm not terribly concerned with that, though. Thing is, I like when products are released that do stranger and stranger things. It seems to me that if they were to ruggedize Mr. D2, it'd cost me some of the things I really like about it.
Sometimes you get what you pay for, but consider that we live in a digital world. You'd be hard pressed to buy a gadget that doesn't have a microchip in it. As long as that keeps happening, products will advance every year to the point that you develop interest in replacing it. I am wiling to bet that in a year or two, they'll release a new R2D2 toy with a USB 2.0 port and flash memory. Chances are good that I'd buy one too because it's a significant upgrade over the original which has no upgradability options.
These products don't need to survive very long because the companies pushing them are going to find new ingenius ways for you to buy the latest one. And you wanna know what? That's good for the economy. Nobody's interested in building a fridge that'll last 25 years anymore. Your business dries up real fast.
I think quality has declined, and it's not just electronics. My mom has a fourty-year-old Frigidaire refrigerator in the garage that still works fine, but she's had to replace two newer units that were purchased more recently. The most recently-replaced one failed after only 6 years of service.
Last January I purchased a Mitsubishi Platinum HDTV unit from a big-name electronics store. Just a few weeks ago (less than 11 months after purchase) the TV went out. Ugh, what a bummer!
The television repair person came out to diagnose the problem but couldn't figure it out - of course. So he took the guts out of the TV for diagnosing back at the shop. On his way out he mentioned that Mitisubishi has been having problems recently with the reliablilty of their picutre tubes so he thought that may be the problem. (hint #1 that these can be unreliable)
Come to find out that it was not the picture tube but the power supply of all things - my goodness, how hard is it to put a good quality power supply into a piece of electronic equipment that cost over $3k. (hint #2 that these can be unreliable)
Well at least I will be getting my TV put back together tomorrow and all it really cost me was time away from the big screen and my Tivo - which isn't really a bad thing. Luckily the extended service warranty paid off for once, didn't pay a cent.
Just as an aside I don't usually buy those extended warranties but it was less than %10 of the cost of the item and I don't consider this type of item a throw-away item - the author of the article considers his DVD player tossable after a year - this TV is a little different I think.
Just my $.02 - I had heard that Mitsubishi was pretty good in the realiability department on their TVs but personal experience has proven otherwise for me. We'll see how long until the next issue arises - hopefully long into the future.
Are you bovilexic? Moo!
"... i know a genuine panaphonic when i see it! ..."
Are you better off buying a $49 DVD player on the expectation that it will only last a year or so?
I wouldn't knock the cheap equitpment. Personally, I think that $69 is a really good deal for
this, especially when combined with this feature.
Lets see a $500 dollar Sony player do that!
Do you have Linux and a DotPal? Click here now!
Basically the premise is larger coporations eating smaller corporations, drive for profit leading to lack of quality standards and appreciation, more features to keep selling (who can survive if your product is only bought every 10-20 years)... There's more, but that's what the book is for, including giving a possible explanation as to why this came about in the first place, and why we let it continue to get worse.
FYI: Marvin Harris is not only probably one of the most influential Anthropologists of our time, but also writes many books (including this one) in a very easy to follow and understandable way.
Sony used to have a very good mid-range VCR line. For $300-$400 we got a solid workhorse of a VCR, lots of features, plenty of displays, excellent remote, fast rewrind, good video quality, all that other fun stuff. It lasted for 5-6 years of solid, heavy use. That was in the early 90s. We'd have bought another when it died if they still made them.
Now, Sony has two types of VCR. $1000 video toasters with more features than God that no one has any use for, and $50-$100 "um, it plays tapes?" models that break after a year.
What's a mindless, stupid consumer-drone to do? Well, we stopped buying Sony VCRs.
It's not feature glut that is driving the fall in quality. It's knowledge that return buyers are an important market. A $300 VCR that lasts 5 years averages out to $60/year for 5 years. A $100 VCR that last 1 year averages out to $100/year, or $500 over the course of 5 years. That's almost a 50% increase in profits for Sony (or RCA, or Phillips, or whoever, they all do it) over the course of five years, because the consumer is, on average, too stupid to figure out that he's being fleeced.
Executives pocket the difference, and you get a new model of VCR/DVD player/stereo/TV/CLIE handheld every year, feeding your gadget lust. Somehow I don't see that as an even trade, but that's just me.
--GrouchoMarx
Card-carrying member of the EFF, FSF, and ACLU. Are you?
Oh yes, how they have declined. Or at least I think so... they suck now and for some reason I assume that wasn't always the case.
I used to sell computers at Future Shop (a shitty Canadian retailer ala Best Buy in the US) and we would get shipments where head office would tell us to expect 1 in 10 to 1 in 6 be be defective right out of the box. At least twice, we got shipments where every other machine was defective. I started tracking returns and warrantee issues that would come back to the store and I would honestly estimate that some manufacturers (who rhyme with Bompaq and Baych-pee and eBachines) would hit over 25% defective units in the first year on some models.
Manufactures need to cut costs everywhere they can and quality just doesn't seem to matter. When I would get a serious geek (who was some how clueless enough to be in a Future Shop) I would quietly refer them to a local clone dealer with a rep for quality work and using good components
Samsung. I've never had bad luck with ANYTHING made under the Samsung name, from hard drives to TVs.
here come the hordes to say I'm just lucky....
Unquestionably, everything is crap. My VCR took a dump recently...it was a semi-pro machine and was bought by a major cartoon studio in 1993. My husband and I wound up with it in 1996 or so. It had served us well up until a few weeks ago, when it ate a tape, belched, and wouldn't play anything anymore.
Trouble is, you can't really replace something like that anymore. Most VCRs are made in China, Malaysia, Indonesia or Korea, and are trash quality. I didn't have the heart to buy a piece of crap VCR and possibly risk the demise of more irreplaceable tapes.
I'm waiting for reasonable DVD recorders. Then I will get on the stick and dub all my tapes to DVD-R. (or +R if that shakes out as being the winner) Right now they are way too expensive.
BTW you can't guarantee getting something good if you buy Sony. Sony gets things made for them in China like everyone else does. And worst of all: they belong to the RIAA and MPAA.
I still can control quality on my computers by home-building, but I wonder how long that will last. Everything else...you roll the dice, you take the chance.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
I bought a 27" Sony WEGA in Sep. 2001, and it had to have the tube replaced in Feb. 2002. Luckily I caved and bought the service plan from the retailer, otherwise I would have been stuck with the bill. I have two friends that have had problems with their WEGA TVs.
Stay away!
I find it also really interesting that we are willing to exchange a good warranty for quality. Who the hell cares if it sucks, will they replace it if it breaks?
Yes? Great, send me two...cheap!
Look at the back of most current 25" TVs. Today you are lucky to see even an audio out on them. Of course, they are a fraction of the price at introduction.
Ultimately, the mfg has to optimize (reduce) everything to keep in the market place. That includes the features, mfg fall-out and even quality.
If you want quality, don't expect to get it at bargin basement prices. And don't expect to see a selection of quality at Wackmart. They care about price, not quality.
Planned Obsolesce.. that pretty much sums up the general decline in ALL products, not just consumer electronics.
They have realized that if people are happy with what they have, they are less inclined to buy the same product every year *just* beacuse its new and shiny..
---- Booth was a patriot ----
See, this is that missing step...
1. Have idea
2. ???
3. PROFIT
Manufacturing costs of making "disposable" stuff decrease faster then prices. This is where profit comes from.
"Disposable" makes great sense for sustainable business models. If you could go out and buy the last $WIDGET you'll ever own (cheaply), the $WIDGET manufacturer would soon run out of customers, no? This way, you need a new $WIDGET every few months.
1. Whatever, it doesn't really matter
2. Planned Obsolescence
3. Profit
The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
What you do today will cost you a day of your life
I came to this conclusion when in my parent's cottage house I discovered that all the switches that never needed fixing/replacing were Siemens-made during the 1930's. I noticed that the quality of electrical products has been steadily declining since then. Note, for another example, that today you just can't find lighbulb sockets made of ceramics, only plastic.
I also noticed a visible decline in the quality of fans. Nowadays, you can't trust a fan to last longer than 2 years, while almost all the fans in the power supplies in the IBM AT computers I used to service, were all working 3 years ago, after 7 or 8 years of horrible conditions (lots of dust, movings, etc.).
It's the little things like these that convinced me to try to keep some of my older HI-FI equipment, like my old Philips CD player, or my (relatively) very old Philips DVD player DVD730 - the first DVD player Philips made. All my older equiplemnt still works perfectly, except for scratches and some unsupported formats (like MP3 or VCD 2.0), but I can put up with those.
Sigged!
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Granted it isn't really a 'consumer item', but it is a great example of how something with simple construction (all analog circuits!), can have almost too many features and capabillities, and can probably fall down a flight of stairs and live to create the soundtrack for TRON.
It will be making an appearance on eBay, BTW.
It might just be me, but it seems the author feels that all products generate similar performance. I find this to be completely ignorant. If you can't see the difference in quality between a Sony Trinitron and an RCA television, you don't have the right to discuss the topic.
I buy higher quality products (at a higher price) because they will out perform the cheap stuff, and additionally last longer. In the long run I find myself spending less money replacing old busted cheap products because my stuff is still kicking. I even have a six year old CD changer that's humming along like it was fresh out of the box.
No sig for you. YOU GET NO SIG!
Consumer electronics are what they've always been: for consumers. Reliability has always been the domain of professional products. There was never a time when Sony walkmans lasted more than a few months but no-one expected that reliability from a consumer product in the first place back in 1992. Consumer electronics are degraded in quality to reach the price point that consumers can attain. Recently, there has been such a demand for consumer electronics that people have begun to notice all the quality traits that differentiate consumer electronics from professional electronics. The price to get professional quality isn't 2 - 3 times but 10 times. If you want a reliable DVD player, consider a professional $1000 DVD player.
Yakovism 101
yeah, here let me critique you there. We are commenting on how Con Elec stuff fails on you, right?
In Soviet Russia "noun2" "verb" "noun1"
So, try this you fail on consumer electronics!
Cheap, often-replaced units wouldn't be quite so bad if you could at least be able to count on the same models being available for a few years. As it stands now, the market moves so quickly that the model you bought last year is almost certainly discontinued - so not only do you have to have to spend money buying a replacement, you have to spend precious time how the new one works and what its features are.
This isn't to say innovation is bad, but it would be a lot nicer if it were possible to get replacements that were more direct drop-ins.
I work for a large chemical company that's been in business for a very long time. Although there were always competitors with lower prices, we survived and did quite well by offering higher quality products. Many customers would stop buying from us because someone offered them a lower price, but they always returned to us a few months later because of low quality and/or poor performance.
But now that's changing. More and more customers are buying based on price alone and are willing to accept lower quality products -- in many cases because they've reduced the quality of their own products.
Lower quality products for the same price = higher profits = bigger raises for top executives.
Check out
epinions. They review a sony video recorder and come up with this list:
Brands are listed starting from the most reliable (best) to least reliable (worst):
1. Panasonic - produced by Matsushita Electric
2. Quasar - also produced by Matsushita Electric
3. Samsung
4. Sanyo
5. Toshiba
6. Sharp
7. ProScan
8. GE
9. Hitachi
10. Philips
11. RCA
12. JVC
13. Symphonic
14. Emerson
15. SONY - isn't it too low for a "leader"?
16. Optimus (Radio Shack)
17. Mitsubishi
18. Zenith
19. Series LXI (Sears)
20. Fisher
IANAL, but imagine a beowulf cluster of in Soviet Russia all your belong are base to us welcoming the new SCO overlords.
I bought a TV at Wal-Mart (hey, I know.. but at the time, there wasn't an electronics store for 100 miles in any direction).. It was a 27" RCA TV with Guide+ GOLD blah blah.. I paid ~$325US (kinda pricy for a 27" TV).. In the 2 years since I made that purchase, I've had to return the TV 3 times (that's right, I'm on my 4th TV in 2 years), and I don't think it's Wal-Mart's fault.
Now, I'm on Wal-Mart's "You've returned too many higher priced items in X months, so we think you're stealing them" list, and I cannot return the TV even though this one just recently broke too. I've finally decided to quit beating the dead horse and just buy one from Best Buy and the ~$50USD 4 year service agreement..
I've joined a few TV repair forums since this started happening, and I've seen a lot of the exact same TV break multiple times.. When shopping for my new TV on best buy's site, I saw the model of mine that was constantly breaking.. They are now selling it for $229USD and not offering any sort of service agreement on it..
Of course products aren't built to last. I assume an MTBF of 2 years on all consumer products, and budget for replacement, because repair will be impossible or uneconomic. Yes, they're disposable. There is no money in making things that last.
If things last too long the manufacturers will come up with some new "standard" that renders the present installed base obsolete, thus forcing people to spend money. I have heard suggestions that this was part of the push for both CD audio and DVD video.
I have been pleasantly surprised, but only a few times. One particularly good result was a cheap piece of crap VCR from Zellers that I finally retired, still going strong, when it proved to have 4 Y2K bugs.
...laura, wondering how they would handle VCRs with Y2K bugs in Soviet Russia
Oh, and one last thing:
We are talking more now (thanks to the Internet).
If a company produces 50,000 items and 100 fail, that's not bad. But if all of those 100 come onto slashdot to bitch (pretend it was sold at ThinkGeek) then the perception of lower quality will be stronger among their target audience because of the ability for a few people to communicate directly with a larger number of others.
Just a thought.
Robots are everywhere, and they eat old people's medicine for fuel.
Remington Arms has been around sometime. I own a Remington 11-87 Special Purpose Shotgun. I call it a working gun. It's routinely my duck-hunting gun, so naturally, it's been covered in salt-spray, mud, dirt, I've used the butt to pound in stakes, it's been thrown around, dropped, and never, ever misses.
The problem with all this technology today is there is no tradition. No one in today's market place is proud to have started from a little shop in the East End of London where we "took pride in making the finest quality harddrives, by hand, with pride." I look into the slashdot headers and see the old atari-style joystick, even that thing the plastic inserts that held up the stick and pushed the contacts routinely failed under heavy gameplay. I would order 6 at a time, we used to go threw those things like butter.
Has quality improved? I'm not sure if it's up or down, but I do know that every gadget I buy now seems to have a certain decaying-before-my-very-eyes feel about it as soon as I open it.
By the way, Nike PSAPlay, 6 months, 3 days, could be a record.
"This isn't a study in computer science, its a study in human behavior"
Back in the late 80's, I bought an inexpensive (corded) phone at Radio Shack. I was going to gut it to make my own lineman's handset. I pried the thing open with a pair of pliers and discovered, much to my surprise, a sizeable peice of metal attached to the inside of this phone. The was put in there to add weight to this peice of crap. Apparently, people would never buy the phone if it felt like the cheap peice of 3"x2" circuit board that really was!
It seems that this is quite common. Open up most any cheap handheld electronic gadget and you're likely to find a weight inside.
The reason why expectations are up: the internet. People know what to expect based on what they read on dv.com about professional products or what their google searches turn up in Sony's professional division without looking at the price. They expect the same thing out of Best Buy, and they wind up dissapointed.
For what it's worth:
In the past 5 years i've bought 4 portable CD players, 2 of which were Sony branded. The first one failed within the first few months. I promptly returned it, went to a different store and got another sony brand, damn thing died in 7 months, Being extra careful to handle it like it was made of glass.
So 2 sony portables down the drain, then I found a lesser known brand by the name of Lenoxx Sound--a total change of pace. These babies are pretty tough to break. Granted, the included headphones turned to shit after a few months (i've noticed this on Lenoxx Sound CD Portables, no biggie though)But the actual players themselves are fantastic. Can't say how much i dropped and banged it up. Eventualy I got a newer one with more anti-skip. However both Lenoxx Sound cd players still work flawlessly today.
I've been finding out that alot of name brand items just go to shit a lot lately, so i've been putting my trust in lesser brands of similar/exact features. I had a Dell 19inch go out on me after 2 years, yet this old (1994 VGA) KLH 15in monitor is like a workhorse, which i use as a second display.
Don't get me started on IBM's older products, their simply rocks when it comes to longativity. I have a pretty damn old Mono VGA PS2 montior that is brighter then my Gateway 19inch, and that thing has to be at least 11 years old. My IBM 760E laptop has been dropped about 3 times already, from about 31/2-4 feet. Cracked the case, the memory cover slid off with the ram flying out of the socket, and the SOB STILL WORKED. Did a thorough scan of the hdd, no errors. LCD was fine. I nearly crapped my pants.
All of this is purely antidotal, but take it for what it's worth.
Case in point, it is getting harder and harder to associate brands with quality products now-a-days. Your best bet is to research the product in question by checking verious web-boards with consumer feedback. Often times enough, you can gauge the quality of a product by doing so. www.pricegrabber.com has a pretty decent feedback system which usally gives buyers (like me)the heads-up of faulty or crappy quality products. Also check out www.consumerreports.com, which sometimes offers good reviews on verious things not just PCs.
In the past, i wasn't very careful with my warrenty cards and the like, but now i'm holding on to my reciepts and mailin' out those cards religously, and i suggest anyone to do the same.
Good luck!
A Penny for my thoughts? Here's my two cents. I got ripped off!
has the quality of high end consumer electronics declined?
cheap crap has always been available within a few months or at most a year of the wide availability of any new technology (the first year CD players costed an arm and a leg, but they probably are still working fine now, my first generation cheap CD player stopped reading CDs within a year and a half) but I find that some years back, if you bought the top of the line (or close to) model of a decent brand, odds were it would go strong for years and years and years.
Lately it seems, like others have said, that the discriminator between high and low price of a specific product is not reliability anymore, but just features, and the reliability is the same (usually not that great) all across the board.
Things are starting to get to the point that buying an extended 3 yrs 'no questions asked' replacement warranty is not the waste of money that it was some years ago.
In my personal experience good products are still obtainable, but getting fewer and fewer, off the top of my head: high-end HP printers (4xxx series), denon CD players, toshiba DVD players, toyota cars, bosh/whirlpool appliances, philips razors, you get the idea.
I really couldn't pick a TV, though, as I keep hearing horror stories about pretty much every projection TV out there, and direct view plasma HDTVs are way out of the reach of us common mortals pricewise...
-- the cake is a lie
Another day closer to redwood heaven
The plural of 'anecdote is not:
'data'
In 1988 (or so), I bought a Hewlett-Packard LaserJet 2P. I sold it seven years later, still functioning perfectly.
In 1994 (or so), I bought a HP LaserJet 5P. It still works perfectly.
If you want to buy something that just works and just keeps working, I'd still trust Hewlett-Packard. Frankly, it's the only brand I associate with that kind of longevity. Not even IBM reaches that far on my confidence scale.
The PC industry mentality of cheap replaceable stuff has rubbed off on the electronics business. Long ago computer companies used to make heavy duty, durable cases, power supplies, fans that lasted 10 years, and keyboards you could use as a sledgehammer (and not break).
Ahhh, those were the days. I've still got some IBM keyboards and AT power supplies (with big honking red switch on side) well over 10 years old that still work.
PC manufacturers realized that no one was keeping these products for 10 years, so why go to the extra expense of building it for that long a life? Average consumers and businesses usually keep computers 3-5 years...so why make it last longer?
Electronics companies realized this about 3-5 years ago. I used to work for a national electronics chain, and a small specialty high-end shop. Both types of stores had declining prices and declining quality. The feature-itis of the past few years only made things worse.
I have a Sony ES home CD player that I bought 10 years ago (Burr-Brown converters...etc) and it still works...it's built like a tank. But it sits in its box....why? Because I replaced it with a $199.99 pioneer DVD player that plays DVDs, MP3s, VCDs, CDs...etc...and it sounds great! Will it last 10 years? No way, but who cares...for $200 i'll buy the latest thing when this one tanks.
-ted
point to anything manufactured that has increased in quality in the last 10 years beyond american cars, and that is only because there was no way for the US car manufacturers to actually get any worse.
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
Executive Summary: I don't buy Sony anymore.
For a while Sony was my first choice. I bought a Sony SDR 2010 receiver in 1990, that lasted close to ten years. Two channel stereo, 165 watts per channel, digital inputs, Dolby surround. In the end the unit started acting erratically, sound levels varying randomly, the display exhibiting interesting if unintelligible optical effects. (Since replaced by a Denon 3801). I was very pleased with this unit and thus with Sony.
I then bought a Sony TC-WR565 cassette deck, which still provides good, if infrequent, service.
I also have a Sony answering machine which works fine.
But ...
I have a Sony CDP-C265 five disk CD player. It is the third unit because I had to return the first two. Both DOA. Even the third unit didn't always recognize all five CDs in the tray. And the shuffle feature would only work with four CDs, ignoring the fifth after playing one song. After a few years the audio out started to go with one or both channels dropping out. (Since replaced with a formerly beige now black PowerMac G3 as a dedicated MP3 player.)
Next I bought a Sony DVP-S550D DVD player. I wasn't sure about going with Sony, but the unit was getting very good reviews. This too had to be returned twice because of audio problems. Once for DVD playback and once for CD playback. My original unit was replaced with a refurbished one when the orginal was lost by either Sony or FedEx. Since getting the second unit I've had no problems.
I have a Sony cordless phone. After about a year the buttons started failing intermittently.
I'm on my second Sony portable CD player. The first just stopped recognizing CDs. (Since replaced by an iPod.)
I also have a pair of Sony noice cancelling head phones, purchased because they were $100+ cheaper than the overpriced Bose set. Most of the time they work fine but on some flights there is a continuous clicking that renders them unusable.
The only Sony product I've purchased in the past three years was an open box STR-DE525 receiver for less than $50. So they may have gotten their quality control problems fixed. But I doubt it.
Steve M
for those who can't type, i've done it for you
I bet you can even find some token ring stuff!
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I've got a couple of these....and even a few without the number pad on the side (great for slide out 19" rack trays). I found a guy at a computer show that was selling them for $5.00 ea!
-ted
I'd not honor your warranty either. Who says you didn't steal the box with warranty card inside?
Why not engineer your stuff to last only 5 years or less. Number one, it costs less than to engineer it to last for more time, two is it will increase the overall amount of units bought (ie buying three $50 DVD player that lasts 3-5 years vs one $150 DVD player that lasts 10 years). And if units moved is your metric, then you do better to make the units with a shorter life. As long as its not obscenely short (ie less that two years), consumers arent going to care after about three years is something craps out on them (assuming it didnt cost a lot of money).
To me it comes down to this, Americans have an average of $5000+ in debt. They are willing to buy buy buy and deal with the consequences later. In this case, the consequences are the unit having a shorter lifespan for being so cheap.
The Doormat
If you're not outraged, then you're not paying attention.
The Almighty Buck. That's what cheapened construction in computers & consumer electronics is all about.
20 January 2017: the End of an Error.
Don't forget that modern America is a throw away economy.
/.ers who also value quality over newness.
By that I mean consumers value newness over excellence. People would rather buy item "X" every year, or every 2 years for some new whiz-bang feature - and then throw it away. People dont want something that lasts for ever.
If a company designs product "X" so well that it will last for 50 years, it will be sold or thrown out after just a few years - even if it working flawlessly! People just like new stuff - too much.
When I say "people", I'm refering to the general populous. I'm sure there are other
As an example, I have a 1984 Audi 4000 quattro. Even by today's standards it is an advanced car. It has all wheel drive, 4 wheel disc brakes, and 4 wheel independant suspension. Most new cars don't have a suspension and drivetrain this advanced. Anyways, this car has 238k miles on it - and it runs perfectly: doesn't burn or leak a drop of oil, starts on the first try, revvs silky smooth. The point is, people don't look at this car and realize that is an amazing feat of quality engineering. They just see a yucky old car. They think to themselves, "Why the hell would anyone want to drive such an old car???"
Newness over excellence. It's sad but true.
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
Just take this simple rule heavier is better. It has never failed me.
Hmmm... as a formerly active pilot, you now have me trying to guess your brand... :) Does it begin with a "C"? An "N"?
There are a number of avionics companies, two or three of them major leaders. And I did get the impression that quality was declining, although gadgets and prices were going up just fine. For the uninitiated here, these avionics boxes are big bucks (thousands) and aggravating as heck to fix. Plus in-flight failure is annoying, or worse. (Real pilots don't admit that a defective little gadget like an instrument would slow them down. More seriously, there is a certain amount of redundancy so that a point failure, compared to the failure of an engine, is rarely that big a deal. Nor is a failure welcome.)
Word to mother on that one! I just tossed half of a new box because I don't tolerate bad sectors. Most folks just use their floppy when the format shows bad sectors, I toss it and find a new one because I think my data is important. I used to use the same disks for months on end in high school, in smoky rooms and dragging my backpack to parties all the time, now I sit here nice and gentle and floppies are failing left and right. Who decided to open the doors in the cleanroom at KAO?
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
"Interestingly enough, consumer interest has risen dramatically in doorstops and metal litterboxes" States marketing VP Sloane, "and we intend to deliver!"
Keep your packets off my GNU/Girlfriend!
My Apex DVD/CDR/CDRW/MP3 player has yet to skip, yet to run into anything it wont play. $59
Buddy's Sony? Won't play CDRs, CDRWs, MP3s and skips like a school girl. $279
27" Sanyo tv was bought in 1996 to watch the Olympics in Atlanta. Still clear as the day I bought it.
----- LoboSoft specializes in Digital Language Lab
This sort of problem has been around for quite some time. Originally, solid state electronics were designed to last for anywhere up to a decade with minimal maintenance. Old timers here (eg; anyone 30 and older) can remember buying replacement vacuum tubes for old clunker TVs that, despite being older than they were, were still going strong. Similarly, older VCRs have a surprisingly long lifespan, where a bit of belt reconditioning, the occasional head cleaning, and minute bias adjustments were all that was needed to keep them operational. In fact, you can often get an old VHS toploader to run good as new with that small amount of maintenance.
However, the industries that build these devices have learned that making a device durable and expensive is not only counterproductive, but unprofitable. Why sell a TV that lasts 20 years, and sell it for $300, when you can make a TV that lasts 5 years, sell it for $200 a pop, and make $800 from consumers who consider it a bargain? Same goes for VCRs, which aren't made for durability anymore, in fact, being priced very close to walkmans and portable CD players, they're more geared towards disposability.
Unfortunately though, there's the electronic waste issue again, which I brought up regarding HDTV. Where will all the waste go? Once again, probably to 3rd world countries that consider a fast buck more important than turning it's towns into toxic waste dumps.
We seriously need to review this process, and find ways of cheaply and safely disposing of these materials, or instead, go for equipment that's rated for a lengthy operational period, putting the concept of responsible consumerism to practical use.
From personal experience, the most durable goods I've owned have been made by Sony, Hitachi, Pioneer, JVC and Toshiba. What's needed is a long term write up on equipment, rated by durability. Perhaps when some of these companies find themselves on the list for most durable (or subsequently, those least durable), then they'll focus on either building hardware that lasts longer, or improving their manufacturing techniques to improve on their records.
Unfortunately, Consumer Reports only does this with cars, while electronics recieve a meager 6 month long term rating.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Some savvy consumers come to this conclusion. Why pay more than an absolute minimum for products in a category which are obsolete or half-price in a year's time?
It's the old adage: value given for value received. What value is a high end, 1993 cd player? or that souped up 486?
Samsung has, until the last few years, been a company that competed on price alone. They made use of super-cheap local labor and parts to undercut the competition. However, with the standard of living improving in Korea, they have made a major shift recently into building quality goods. They understand that as it gets more expensive to pay their workers, they will not be able to undercut China, and are taking the initiative now to compete on quality with the likes of Sony (who seems to be cutting costs and quality for a change for their own reasons).
There was a large article about this in a recent Newsweek (i think-- i read a lot), but I can't seem to find a web link to it to show you.
We'll see if their efforts hold. But hey-- my VCR isn't broken yet, and my microwave is alive and kicking.
I think so, I haven't turned it on in over 10 years.
Seriously though, I bought a Sony CD-RW drive and it crapped out within about 6 months of very light use. I replaced it with an HP. It sounds like a Buick on rims when it spins up, but it's still working.
I've been using cellphones since 1995, when they became popular with the GSM system. Since then I've had 5 cellphones, and the drop in quality is astounding. To illustrate this I'll tell the history of the phones.
The first "luggable" cellphones were sturdy bastards, made in steel and hard-ass PVC. My father has an old NMT450 phone, still going strong after almost twenty (!) years. It is big as a suitcase, but it works.
Ericsson "HotLine" was one of the first phones to really fit in your hand (Not like the Motorola "Dog bone". It too could go through hell, but not quite as though as the previous luggable phones. Fair enough, it was after all, made totally of plastic.
Then I bought my first phone, a Nokia 2110i. Huge by todays standards, sexy in 1995. The 2110 had a aluminium frame and plastic casing, and it was rather though. The plastics was durable but the design flaws started to appear as the phones became smaller. Two BIG flaws on the phone; tiny and flimsy antennae, always breaking off and huge display, cracking in two if you sat on the phone. I counted 5 friends with 2110, 4 had to get new displays and all had to get new antennaes.
Then I got a Bosch phone. This was my first 'cheap' phone. It was a nightmare to use, complex system, bad design, cheap keypad and bad display. Really a bad phone. But great value for the money.
Then I got the Nokia 3210, the first phone where you could switch the cover. Now what is the use of that. If that's not a kiddie-robbing marketing scheme, I don't know what is. The covers soon became wiggly, scratched and collected dust inside the phone. The keypad was nice to use, but the paint on the keys soon wore out. The software had to be upgraded, because of constant OS crashes. One day, I was tossing the phone on to the bed, but it hit the wall before the sheets. Display cracked, new phone.
Since I didn't have money for a new phone, I borrowed one from a friend. The Nokia 6110. It had huge memory, and a nice design. Nice menues and bad, bad keypad. The battery also fit badly and the battery poles rubbed on the contacts making the current less than optimal. Also, the display started dimming. This is an inherited design flaw, because the LCD is slightly movable. The rubs on the less-than-durable contacts on the PCB, wearing them out. I was amazed to see that the copper on the PCB was actually gone, therefore, zero contact.
My next phone was a Nokia 6210. Now this is a nice phone! To look at. I actually like the size, it fits in my hand. But why is the battery wiggly? Just like the 6110. And what the hell is wrong with the software? My 6210 crashed, crashed, froze, and crashed hundreds of times. It got better after a software upgrade, but it still crashed sometimes. It was stolen, and calls were place to Somalia for 10USD before I managed to block it. And, yeah, WAP sucks all ass.
Now I have a Sony Ericsson T68i. I'm greatly disappointed in theis phone. The case is the most flimsy I have ever seen. I'm afraid it will break at any time! The battery time is much less than the 6210. The OS is S-L-O-O-O-O-W. I was told that it has less software errors than Nokia, but after using it for two weeks, I doubt it. And it is the unuseful things that does this. It has been on the marked for half a year and there are four upgrades to the software. That's almost as much as Windows!
I want a phone that NEVER crashes. My 2110 went for two years without crashing. With a HUGE memory for SMS and phone numbers. I love games, on the PS2, not the phone. I dispise the bastard protocol WAP and GPRS makes me laugh.
Why can't I have a phone that works, not a wannabe PDA??
These products don't need to survive very long because the companies pushing them are going to find new ingenius ways for you to buy the latest one. And you wanna know what? That's good for the economy. Nobody's interested in building a fridge that'll last 25 years anymore. Your business dries up real fast.
Bad for the economy, good for society - what would youp be building if you weren't building all those 10 year fridges?
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
BTW, Golfs are built in Germany and sold in the US for about $2000 less than a Jetta built in Mexico, but are the same car (except the trunk)... tell me which one you would buy...
...we are from the government - we are here to help...
Really. When Best Buy and Circuit City have nothing but cheap shit on the shelves in the consumer entertainment department it's because that's exactly what people are willing to pay for. There used to be a middle range of devices, usually retailing just a little above the cheap stuff.
:)
These mid range units could generally be relied upon to perform well, have extra useful features, and lasted longer. As an example I had a Sony Hi8 camcorder from circa 1990 - a fabulous machine : Great optics, great mechanics, great sound, manual controls for everything, audio overdub functions, nice damped zoom control, it had the works. (It got stolen after 4 years, but by then it still worked as new.)
Sure it cost a bit more than the discount units available at the time, but in use you could certainly feel where those extra dollars went. It was also a lot cheaper than the high end pro video gear. All in all it was a nice compromise.
Nowadays the mid range is mostly gone - how could it be any different? The consumers buy the cheapest shit they can find, with everything automatic. You can't find camcorders with manual controls unless you go to the 'prosumer level' which is a relatively new high-strata tier with prices ranging close to that of pro gear. (Sony VX2000, Canon GL-1, XL-1, etc.)
It's my impression that the mid range market shrank in America as quality-oblivious people decided the budget units performed 'well enough', and simply picked which-ever nice-looking unit had the lowest price tag with a comparable feature set. The incentive to improve quality became less significant than the incentive to reduce price.
A circuit board in a black box is not just a circuit board in a black box, but who's to know if the thing works okay for a couple of months before it starts to die little by little?
There have been digital radio tuners for almost twenty years. Why do you think they still sell clock radios and boomboxes with mechanical turn-knob tuners?
The Japanese in particular, but also Europeans have been more quality conscious than Americans, and the mid-range segment still exists there. For example, the Europeans have for many years had an affordable mid-range 16:9 widescreen TV option with digital framedobler and picture stabilization, which is available to Americans only if they go all the way and buy the high-priced High Def sets.
For twenty years(!) Europeans have had digital ceefax teletype color text overlays on their TVs which lets users lookup program listings, news and weather information and much more from their remote controls. It's virtually indispensable even if it's low tech and looks like early 80s console game graphics, but Americans have never had anything as functional or useful of the kind until the advent of the digital cable box, Tivo, etc.
Europeans have NICAM digital near-CD-quality stereo audio to go with the PAL (*) TV picture, which by the way has higher resolution and much better colors than the Japanese/American NTSC format. Most American mom&pop&joe sixpack consumers get their stereo audio in crap quality from an analog audio carrier in the NTSC format. The new digital cable boxes improve the situation; but many many households still use 1980s or even 1970s technology, upon which they base their quality and performance expectations.
European electronics consumers have preferred direct two-way audio/video cables (SCART) to connect their VCRs and TVs in order to obtain the better picture afforded by not having the picture components squished together and lose quality by being re-modulated and de-modulated for the aerial connection: In the six years I stayed in the U.S., in the many different homes I visited, I saw most American home consumers connect their VCRs and even DVD players to the TV through aerial jacks.
Where I lived (Fairfax, VA) I had a nice home entertainment system setup. 120 channels of crap on TV to choose from, but the cable system employed analog UHF multiplexing technology from the 1970s (two stiff coaxials snaking from the wall to a decoder box with, I shit you not, fake wooden sides!) - The picture always had ghosts and noise and looked awful. The colors were washed out and the effective horizontal picture resolution was maybe 200 pixels. One day the picture looked so bad that I called in a cable guy to fix it. He probably thought I was some kind of euronazi crank because he said it looked just like everyone else's signal and nobody's complaining. With performance expectations as low as these, it's no wonder American consumer electronics are all basically worth exactly what you pay for.
Americans: If you want good stuff, smuggle some stuff home from Japan. Suffer the premium rates. They use mostly the same standards as you do, but their shit is -much- better, has more features, lasts longer.
Also, come visit Europe sometime, check out the cool shit we got you ain't got: 100hz TV picture steady as a rock, broadcast TV over aerial looking close to DVD quality; RDS car radios which continously retunes your receiver to the closest carrier broadcasting the program you're listening to, and your CD player pausing automatically for urgent traffic announcements; Ubiquitous, standardized GSM cellphones with SMS and always-on GPRS data services...
(*) By the way, pay no attention to the French with regards to home electronics. They're weird and speak French and use SECAM which sucks.
I have a Sansui VCR that is 8 years old but still works like new. My wife has a 2 year old Magnavox VCR that just broke so I threw it away. The point is yes, it's true, they don't make 'em like they used to.
I have a Panasonic VCR from 1987 (normal -sized front-loader, but this was still way back when you had to manually tune in each preset channel) that still worked fine until a couple years ago. I had it in my office at work, and I think it ate a power surge one weekend when some strong thunderstorms rolled through. I can't bring myself to throw it out-- one of these days I may crack it open and see if there's anything I can do to bring it back from the dead.
I just sold my very first component CD player, also a 1987 Panasonic model, on eBay. It still works great.
I've got a Zenith 19" color TV from 1983 that is still going strong, as well.
Conversely, my 1995 Sony component MiniDisc player that I also just sold on eBay had to go out for repair when it was barely more than a year old. My Sony shelf system from 1994 had to be fixed once as well, and so did two of a Sony cordless phone/answering machine combo that I had that dated back to 1992. I've got a 1994 25" RCA TV in my bedroom that is starting to fail.
By my experience, one could draw the conclusion that 80's = good, 90's = crap.
~Philly
Which decks? The things are too durable. I have FINALLY gotten the ok to remove the last 3/4" machines - the damn things won't die, and the @#$# sales staff don't want to lose them, "just in case" they can sell some spot with half-assed old 3/4" quality.
.02
I've seen old BVW-10s are still running strong, and those are ancient. Aside from upper drums, and the odd scanner, I haven't seen problems with any of sony's commercial (professional) equipment. I work on some old sony cameras, which get so hot inside you can get blisters if you aren't careful - still going 20+ years later.
Haven't worked on any digi-beta yet, so don't know about the long term quality there.
Personally, I have NEVER regretted purchasing a Sony product, either consumer or professional.
just my
The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers. Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2, Act 4, Scene 2
My portable CD player was bought over 10 years ago (in Japan). It failed soon afterward. A non-geek would have had to throw it out, but I opened it up and found the problem was trivial (faulty diode in the power circuit, no idea why) and it has worked fine ever since.
... until I found out about SCMS and that the players don't allow access to the raw bits on disc. I bought my DVD player with full knowledge about region-coding and macrovision - but then I had
Our 10-year-old TV screen now shows colour distortion, but the rest works fine. Our 10-year-old VCR has had to be repaired (dead heads) and I have had to crack it open several times for minor repairs also. It is showing wear in its moving parts.
The reason I don't replace them, or otherwise buy much in the way of consumer electronics these days, is the DRM problem. It's necessary to investigate each product carefully before purchasing, because the manufacturers don't exactly do out of their way to put "this is crippled crap" on the brochure. I was considering buying an MD player
them disabled in the shop before taking delivery. In Australia it is now ILLEGAL for a shop to disable Macrovision (so it looks like I bought my DVD player at the right time!!)
The other reason I don't buy much consumer electronics is that the stuff is not well integrated yet. Behind the stereo looks like a
rat's nest, so my first requirement is something to improve the cabling. Maybe a bus architecture?!? The gear doesn't "talk" to each other - when I turn on the TV, the stereo should turn on too, and set its input to TV. My VCR has a clock which loses its setting every time we have a power outage, plus I have to manually reset it twice a year for Daylight Saving. Why can't it self-synchronise on a timestamp from the TV signal, for example?
I don't want to buy another lemon like the Sony combined TV/VCR we got a few years ago. Not only does it have mono sound only (my fault for not checking enough) but its internal clock loses time on power loss (as above) and it cannot be reset while there are recordings programmed! That's one stupid device.
As for computer equipment (which to me is quite a separate thing from consumer electronics) I have found the quality is steadily improving over time. When I buy a card these days generally it comes with adequate documentation, not like a few years ago. These days, motherboards usually fit into cases (I've bought some where I had to start doing metalwork on the case just to get the mobo in). Various cards are usually compatible with each other nowadays (not like the SCSI card I had which couldn't be used with the ethernet card). Sure, hard disk warranties have gone down, and maybe they are more prone to failure than before - but they have always been prone to failure, and it has always been important to keep regular backups. Paradoxically, a dead CPU or mobo doesn't matter much because your important data is on the disc, yet the CPU is ultimately more reliable due to no moving parts.
So in general I don't think quality has gone down, or not much. My expectations have gone up a lot. I feel that manufacturers aren't paying attention to integrating products, at least in Australia. In Japan you can buy watches which self-synchronise off a low frequency AM radio signal.
I've been looking, for several years, for a digital clock radio which has a _digital_ tuning mechanism, as opposed to the ones which tune a capacitor and use string to pull an indicator across a frequency indicator. I can't understand why such a simple requirement is completely ignored by the manufacturers. It must be cheaper to produce a digital tuner than one containing strings and pulleys, at least. Actually I found one about 18 months ago but the price was well out of my range, and I was in a specialty store for "geek toys" at the time; I have never seen one in any of the usual department stores where the bulk of the population buy their electronics.
You know what those three words are?
.. You expected quality? Cost to manufacture? $.93 Cost to consumer in US? $100 Yeah, I know why there are there too. Cost more to ship the damn thing than it cost to make.
...That can be misleading. If the components inside are made in Indonesia, or China... Odds are they will fail quickly.
...
...And thank you General Electric. I'm sure I'll hear from their lawyers soon.
Made In China
Made In Indonesia
Made In Malaysia
Look...I have a Samsung wireless phone. The first three units I got all semi-worked but had some defect. Made In Indonesia is stamped on the back. What should be there? Made In Indonesia By Children As Young As 5 Years Old Living 30 To A Room Smaller Than My Bedroom Making A Combined Daily Salary Less Than The Cost Of A Combo Meal.
Your (insert item here) is a piece of crap? Look at the POM. If it's junk, odds are it comes from one of the three above. But in the age of global parts
This is what you get when you mix poor wages, illiteracy, bad working conditions, and sweat shops.
Welcome to the global marketplace. Corporations will chase cheap labor to make cheap products while exporting the jobs of those who used to make them somewhere else. It's a nice race to the bottom. Forget quality. Forget quality of life. Japan is just doing the same thing we did. Chase cheaper labor and export jobs to where they can get it. Their economy is in the crapper now? Gee, I wonder why!
You see it very dramatically in the guitar market. As soon as a country acquires the skill to finally make a decent product, they move the operation to where people will work for a dollar less. They haven't even hit the bottom of the pool yet. There are still places with cheaper labor, less environmental laws, and lower education
Enter corporate solution
Make you buy it twice.
How we going to pay for that new plant? Got to drive demand somehow. Making it fail is a good way to do that.
This isn't to say that corporations don't love to sell you the same stuff twice. General Electric (one of the most crooked US companies in history) does it all the time with light bulbs. Goddess help those who fly on planes with their engines. They can't even make a good cordless phone or a toaster that wont burn your house down. Of course, even avionics parts are being made in China now. Fasteners that fail and kill several hundred people. Yep. Made in China. Thanks for dying on United.
Just start that mantra...
Business knows best.
Free markets.
Deregulation.
Business knows best.
Free markets.
Deregulation.
Of course, even General Electric isn't as bad as Hewlett Packard. When HP switched from being technology focused to being "consumer focused" that's when we got things like print heads and ink carts that are programmed to fail at a certain date. Still half full of ink? No matter.
Still plenty of geeks here who work with embedded applications. Go look into it. Call it what you will..I call it corporate crime.
It wouldn't suprise me at all to see automobile manufactures start to incorporate this into their cars computers. Encyrpted of course --.
Business Knows Best.
Free Markets.
Deregulation.
Freedom is merely privilege extended unless enjoyed by one and all.
Planned obsolescence nearly destroyed the big 3 automakers in the 70s. Now the computer and home electronics industries are manufacturing garbage, so we will have to replace it frequently. I am a computer repair technician, and people ask me what brand of PC is good. I have to tell them that they all suck, unless you are willing to spend what Alienware charges. The most disturbing thing is that all this garbage is non-biodegradable, contains toxic chemicals and is bound for landfills.
The Uncoveror: It's the real news.
Notice that floppy disk quality/reliability began to sink about the same time the FDD-less iMac came out?
Hmmm... =)
About two years ago I purchased a Sony DirecTiVo and VCR. I bought a Sony VCR so I could archive TiVo stuff to tape using the o-so-sexy Sony-to-Sony interface.
The first VCR didn't at all work out of the box. I brought it to Sony service (about a half-hour drive away). They mailed me a new one, but I had to wait two weeks for it to get there. When the replacement arrived, I discovered that the front panel buttons worked sometimes, so I would have to do everything with the remote (good thing I had a spare left over from the original VCR). I decided it was too much time and trouble to send it back, just to get the same model again, so I've been making do.
The TiVo shit the bed after the first month with a contant reboot problem, and I took a little trip over to Sony service. It took a couple weeks for them to replace the hard drive. It was still under warranty when the fan started to make bad noises. Rather than give up the TiVo for another two weeks, I removed the "DO NOT OPEN THIS BOX" sticker with a razor blade and replaced the fan myself.
After all that, I've never been able to get the magical Sony TiVo-to-VCR auto-record feature to work. The phone tech suggested that I bring both items to Sony service. Fuck that noise.
I'll never buy Sony again.
This 'last just past the warrenty period' & 'cheaper to replace than repair' mentality is really pissing me off.
Mind you I understand it.
A genuinlly reliable electronic product will last for yonks, which means less market opportunities later
My first thought on seeing this article was "Hey, somebody's slashdotted the Aardvark!"
/., the Aardvark is one of my visit-every-day sites. Of course, non-New Zealanders will find the site less interesting.)
Then I looked again at who submitted it - the Aardvark slashdotted the Aardvark!
Are you stress testing your web server, Bruce?
(Along with a few comic strips and
Quattuor res in hoc mundo sanctae sunt: libri, liberi, libertas et liberalitas.
Sony's strategy is to build stylish electronics with lots of great features and sell it for a great price. In order to make this happen their quality is horrible, and their customer service is even worse. If you've ever tried to get a Sony product repaired you know what I'm talking about. I had a Vaio laptop and the 'L' key broke off. I called Sony, and despite the fact that I had registered the laptop and it was 6 months old, they were going to charge me $150 to repair it unless I had the original receipt (the fact that I bought it direct from Sony didn't make a difference)!!! And if they did repair it, I would have to back up my hard drive because they would have to format it! How bad can you get?
I went down to the local CompUSA and popped the L key off on of their display computers. About 1/4 of the keys were missing from that computer, I guess it was a common problem.
I had 5 other Sony products break within 2 months of this. I no longer buy Sony.
There are some very high quality consumer electronics out there though. If you've ever looked at high-end audio components (stuff that you can't buy at the local circuit city), you know what I mean. You certainly have to pay for it though.
While the cheaper IBM laptops may have the same computing spec for less money, there are real differnces from the more expensive ones. The most glaring difference is the lid is plastic with a cheap hinge instead of metal with a solid hinge. The lid on an R-Series becomes floppy and is prone to cracking. OTOH, my 3 year old T-Series is still as solid as new, despite being pounded on 12 hours a day. Second, and this is the biggest difference, is that the cheaper ones come with a 1 year warranty vs. 3 years. So if you really depend on your computer, the more expensive one is probably a better buy. Basically, what you're paying for is that IBM will "keep you in computer" for 3 years instead of one.
Do what my friend and I did about 7 years ago. Buy a conair flip fone. It's just a tad bit bigger than a cell phone. My friend(quite a whiz with the soldering iron) and I had ours totally tricked out. In/out audio jacks, a mute switch, a polarity tester, an "off the hook" LED, a "someone picked up an extension" LED + muter(with override switch). I went a bit further and made a cable that included a standard RJ-11 plug, that light-blue plug linemans use, and standard alligator clips.
Oh those were the days.
Planned Obsolescence. It's just a corperate plan to make shitty products, sell them at high prices, and then in a couple years, people have to come back and buy it again because the original broke!
Take audio electronics for instance... I have an awesome radio and tape system made by Technics from a long time ago. Sure, it's big and heavy, but it's made with real nice polished metal that has stood the test of time. It gets the best radio reception out of ANYTHING in my house... better than my car's too. The knobs are big and turn nice (with nice heavy momentum too so it feels like you're actually doing something), the LED's are bright and everything is perfect on it...
Sitting in my basement is a 2Disc CD system with 2 tape decks and a low-lit display. I feel like if i put a glass of water on top of the thing the plastic will give away and ruin it... The nobs are weightless and rough, the reception is like I'm in a cement tomb 500ft in the ground, and the CD/Tape players barely work... They spent so much time designing the thing with beveled edges and color contrasts everywhere that I can't even find any button to press to turn the damn thing on. I could barely see where to eject the CD... or even where the tray was because of the stupid "techno" and "futuristic" bull shit design they have...
Yes, consumer electronics has gone down over the years... mainly the fault of stupid consumers, but also the fault of the greedy corperate SOBs that are runnin the company and make the decisions to sell the crap...
Don't give me a hunk of cheap plastic crap that looks like a 3D ink blob test, just give me a simple, nice looking, reliable product and I'll be a loyal customer for the rest of my life...
I have not bought Bose so I am not speaking from first hand experience, just based on lots of research and reading. Just substitute any other manufacturer's name that you don't like if you like Bose.
Bose spends a great deal on their marketing and a lot of people believe that the quality is excellent. So they'll pay for the name and think they've got a great package. As long as it sounds close to what they thought it would, their happy. So another satisified customer.
Same goes for any major manufacturer. You set a pain threshold for how much someone is willing to pay based on features and brand name. Companies know they can sell based on their names to the majority of people. Flood the market with all sorts of different features just to have some differences, and you give consumers a wide range to stick with. Find a big box company like Best Buy to display as much of your line as possible, and you've got a good chance for a sale.
How much time does it take for you to do research so that you get the most for your buck? At what cost point is your minimum research. This boils down to cost benefit analysis. Who's willing to do that? If $50 for a specific item seems a lot of money to spend, you'll do some research before spending it. If $your pain threshold is much higher, then you won't do the research. If it breaks no big deal.
Anywho...
pain threshold = $0.02
Cost of opinion
I'm all for buying quality electronics, avoiding the cheap stuff altogether. Given recent market trends, long term use in consumer electronics is unfortunately probably a non-issue for most manufacturers as standards continuosly change. The CD player I bought five years ago will probably be out of date in 15 years. A newer, and supposedly better format will be out by then. I've invested a lot in CD's and I'll probably buy a really good quality player before the newer standards come out. Come to think of it, I probably sound like my parents holding onto the record players, 8-tracks... Of course w/ a new standard the cost of the older music will be inflated artificially.
I think I just split the adage! It can only be a matter of time before modern science has developed... the adage bomb!
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
It's been ten years since we (pretty much at random) bought an RCA 19" TV. My husband has finally decided he needs a TV that's larger than a monitor, and I thought I'd surprise him by buying a 27" or larger for Christmas.
Egad.
As near as I can figure, everybody seems to agree that Orion is get-what-you-pay-for (though the Orion I looked at in the store looked much nicer than the RCAs and Sanyos next to them, which is annoying), but otherwise as near as I can tell the rest are interchangeable, and I should just buy whatever has the right connectors.
This does not seem right to me, but darned if I can find any information that's more, well, informational.
Slashdot's token middle-aged housewife
As mentioned on ./
a month or so ago, poorly manufactured capactors seem to the the primary cause of modern failures. There have also been several other articles regarding this problem on several techie sites ie. NASA Tech Briefs.
Working for a tv station, we have seen this on damn near every DVCPro component we purchased 3 or 4 years ago.
Every machine has had hundreds of these small caps replaced, but the manufacturer will not admit the caps have an unusually high failure rate.
These same caps were/are also used in hundreds of consumer products, although I have heard the "bad batch" of these caps have since passed.....we'll see.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
And you're still buying the things? That explains why they keep makng them to fail after a little while. If you keep getting more of them, then they know that the scam is working. Personally, I figure you're better off to buy a $500 PC and play it into the ground for the next couple of years.
At least, then, you're not rewarding Sony for making defective equipment.
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
That's why I have built my last two computers. I pick the parts I want and install them myself. The only reason I "replaced" the first one is that it is a 200 MHz Pentium and will not run some of the Apps (games) that I want to run. It now lives on a former fishtank stand networked to the new computer. It may not be fast by today's standards, but it still runs fine. My Father-in-law has had several Compaqs in the mean time before deciding to get a homebuilt unit.
Beware of Sleestak
Unfortunately, in the late 90s Sony started to get hammered in their traditionally highly profitable consumer electronics divisions. I think at its worst they only had one profitable division: the Playstation guys.
So what did Sony do? They changed their strategy, and in almost all product lines cut prices, costs and quality to bring back the consumers. It apparently has worked, Sony's making money pretty much across the board, but the quality you get from them now is no different from any other manafacturer, i.e., 'good enough'.
What does this prove? Not that corporations are greedy and trying to rip consumers off, but people simply don't value high-quality consumer electronics anymore. Cheap credit and cheaper manafacturing costs across the board have brought the price of consumer electronics down into the 'impulse purchase' area, and in this price range people want cheap devices that work for a few years, and then get discarded when the latest and greatest comes out.
For those of us that like quality, it's too bad. Sony still has a few good product lines, but they tend to be the very-high end products, where buyers are still thinking long-term.
A month or so ago my video started chewing up tapes. Time for a new one I thought, nothing too fancy, I have a DVD player for movies so for time-shifting TV all I wanted was something simple, 2 heads, easy to program.
Oh, and I wanted something black. I have a black TV, a black DVD player and black speakers. It would be nice if the video would at least vaguely fit in with the rest of my equipment.
But no one makes a black VCR, it's unbelievable, every single one is silver. All they need to do is offer the same VCR in two different coloured cases, there can't be much added expense there. I checked online and visited over 10 physical stores. Most of the staff at the stores said it was far from the first time they'd heard someone asking them if they had any black VCRs
In the end I got a "last years model" Sony which wasn't black, but was at least a dark grey matt.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
To address just one point of the article: extended warranties....
Have any of you ever actually tried to USE one of these warranties? I'm not talking about the "no questions asked replacement unit" ones, which are usually quite expensive and often unavailable, but the repair warranties.
The are most often serviced (the warranty) by GE or some other large unit, which may or may not depot repair you stuff. The may send it to a local shop. Either way, you bring it back to you reatiler and it disappear for some time between two weeks and god only knows how long. There is an obvious and fundamental disconnect in information....you call the reatiler and ask for a staus, and they have no idea. They have to make a couple phone calls, which in turn kick of a few more sometimes. A day or so later you get blown off again.
Then the device comes back and it's either not fixed or something else is wrong with it. And you go through the whole thing again.
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
I re-read Brave New World the other day, and I have to say this topic reminds me of the hypnopaedia-induced principal central to their society that encourages people to throw away, rather than repair consumer goods, and the good are made to last a suitably short time. In that, it was (I assume) used as a control mechanism, to keep people enslaved to the machine, working hard to buy the latest. Sometimes I think a similar thing is happening here, but I think it is more a case of companies looking out for their bottom line, and moving off-shore to sweat shops.
Incidentally, I have a very nice (but not terribly expensive) 1993 NAD CD player and 1970's solid-state NAD amp, and they are excellently made, they haven't failed me once. The amp is build like a brick shithouse, wood and metal faceplate.. Contrast that with my experiences with modern TVs and VCRs crapping out on a regular basis, and I think I can agree that the quality has declined. Mind you, NAD are a higher-quality brand than Sony or LG etc.
My parents have a television that is a couple years older than I am - placing it at least 21 years old. It is the only television they have ever owned. While it's not high tech, and they don't watch much TV, it has gotten (on average, I'd say) at least 3 hours of use a day, conservatively.
On the newer side of things, I've seen televisions, monitors, LCDs, and projection units fail within a year quite a few times in the last 5 years. I'm sure everyone has. I know of people that have 3 or 4 in their house, and one tends to die on them every year.
I still have a Nintendo Gameboy (what might be deemed the Classic now) that runs fine - even after being flung at the wall uncountable times in rage, and even being run over once by a truck by accident once. It's had fluids (not just water) spilled in it, and has been used in nearly every environment. (I'm also led to believe that my situation here isn't exactly rare.)
I've heard several friends' children complain about their GBAs not working, or actually seeing the result of one flying down a staircase onto a hardwood floor myself. (I find it plauseable that someone could take a GBC and use it as a hammer to destroy GBA units to dust.)
To say nothing of the plethora of old PC systems (as old as 10 years) still running strong, whereas there are many, many new systems that have a major problem within a year (mainly memory or hard drive problems, it seems). Or the items that just happen to fail just shortly after going out of warranty.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
If you climb into an airplane and the pilot says "Sure hope we don't lose this baby (*pats futuruistic Garmin all-in-one unit*)." then get out of the plane as fast as you can. If the airplane and/or pilot can't handle the loss of any one piece of avionics then you need to fly with someone else. Naturally losing avionics during an IFR approach to minimums would suck, but the plan is it would be very rare to lose all of the criticals at once.
But there are better, more convenient options that are becoming close to universal.
For small (ie floppy disk sized) bits of information e-mail is usually sufficient and easiest, you typically don't have to carry anything around to use email to store/transfer files.
For bigger things CD-R or CD-RW are usually quite convenient and accessible these days.
For their own use I guess a lot of people might have more proprietary technologies at their disposal. I use Memory Sticks for moving things up to 128meg back and forwards from work.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
All in all I'd say predictability of quality has disappeared. It used to be that you bought certain brands for the quality, now you have no idea from model to model whether it's going to perform very well or for very long.
Buy a top-end Sony monitor (G520), XBR TV, DVD player, etc. from their ES line, and you get decent quality and reliability. Why? Because those units require and receive a bit of testing and tweaking before shipping.
Buy their "consumer" level products, and you get untested slide-line manufactured junk, the same as everyone else in the cheap-as-possible-with-lots-of-buttons market.
I and my sisters gave the folks a 20" Sony TV for their anniversary over ten years ago, and it works fine. My 32" Trinitron (8 years old) still works fine. My first DVD player was a Sony, which lasted through almost six years of heavy use, and AFAIK is still working for the guy who bought it from me (I replaced it with a new Sony in the same price range that does SACD and progressive scan, which is working fine, but only six months old.) My ES20 CD player is still solid after six years, but no longer gets used because the DACs aren't upgradeable. An ancient Sony 17se still functions, though it can no longer do more than 72Hz without generating a squeal (it used to do 75-85.)
On the flip side, I've had to replace my portable Sony CD player about once a year. Failed motors. Failed CD clamps. Failed audio jack. Failed buttons/wiring. Yet the only moving these units have done is from desk drawer to desk top and back each day at work.
I never have and never would buy one of Sony's amps, because they have no current. Watts don't drive good sound, clean current does. A 75 watt high current amplifier from the audiophile manufacturers runs rings around a "250 watt" Sony.
The bigger problem I've had is companies like JVC, Viewsonic, and HP, who don't have the high build quality lines. They use the same parts throughout their manufacturing line, and it shows. I killed two HP DVD burners with less than 1500 hours of burning each. My JVC VCR has been flaky since day one, despite being their "top of the line" model. A 19" Viewsonic monitor died in less than two years, despite being their "professional" series.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Holy good Christ. Good thing I don't have to see your face as you tell me that I have to spend over $500 to get a good VCR. Or an $11000 television set.
Lemme check:
$80 RCA VCR, bought in like 1995 - still working.
$290 27" RCA TV bought in 1997 - still working.
$300 Kenwood "theater-in-a-box" system bought in 2000 - still working.
Jordan, I appreciate your salesmanship and your dedication to Tweeter, but some of your comments are flat-out wrong and why people dislike salesmen. You may be able to swing a $500 VCR with some of your custom home clients, but 99% of people cannot tell the difference between a tape recorded on a 2-head or 4-head or 6-head VCR. Hell, most people can't tell the difference when you're playing back from a mono or stereo VCR.
DVD players are another area that people are easily duped. Yeah, I'll grant you that a $49 DVD player is shit. But seriously, spend more than $500 for a single-tray DVD player and you got taken. "24 bit Burr/Brown D/A converters, multipath signals, isolated power supplies, etc." You've made the pitches, I've heard the pitches. Now put the two DVD players side by side on a 36" TV - the average size, I would assume for most people - and again, 95% or more *cannot tell the difference*.
Same with audio. Stevie Ray Vaughn's excellent "Texas Flood". Play it on CD, then on SACD for people. No difference for most people unless you lead them into it. "Now listen to this!" They don't want to appear stupid, so they'll say "YEAH! That sounds awesome!"
Don't get me wrong. A pair of Klipsch RF7's is lightyears above any piece of shit Bose, and I'll sing the praises of Yamaha receivers all day - but there's a point where you're just reaching.
"If there's hope, it lies in the proles..."
A $150 DVD player is near bottom of the line, so when it breaks you should not be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised if at least one of those was also a multi-disk unit with even more points of failure.
You're right about turntables, and it also applies to (seperate component) cassette decks from most manufacturers. They have solid designs that work, have all the features needed, and haven't been changed with in several years, except the faceplate labels and sometimes the button layout or display color.
Other stuff like CD or DVD players are constantly having their designs tweaked each model year, and it seems that each time you're really taking a gamble as to whether it's really any better than last year's model (quality wise), or just retooled for cheaper manufacturing.
I do not fail; I succeed at finding out what does not work.
Do you remember these? They are the red circular toys that have a ring of animals or whatever around the front with an arrow that points to one of the sounds. When you pull the lever you get the sound of the animal (or whatever) the arrow is pointing to. They had little phonographs inside so they didn't require batteries and you could do slow down or speed up the recorded sound.
Well I wsa shopping for my young daughter the other day and was saddened to find that the phonograph had been replaced with a chip and the sounds were distorted to sound somewhat like the original. They still have levers but they serve no purpose other than spinning the arrow around and pressing the button inside that plays the sound.
Anyway, the point is that if you didn't press the handle down all the way, the internal button wouldn't get despressed and no sound would come out. I let my two year old daughter try it out and she couldn't get it to make a sound, only to spin.
Anyway, I know this is slightly offtopic, but it's related to the parent post.
-
Here's what I like to do (well, often like to do) ... purchase the oldest possible unit that will get the job done and contains the necessary features (by saying necessary, I really mean it!). By buying older pieces of equipment, you not only save money (well, unless you buy severely antique equipment!), but you can rest assured that since it has been around X years, it will probably survive quite a few more. A fine example of this is my amplifier purchase decision. I bought an Onkyo Integrated Amplifier from the 70s. It is tiny (unlike the massive beasts that litter the shelves today), sounds spectacular (I am a music student here in NYC, and my ears are as sensitive as can be), and cost me $47 shipped. I figured that since it has worked for the past 30 years, it will last me the next few years (until I move into a larger space and need a more powerful amplifier). The unit exterior is metal including the faceplate (read=quality, not cheap plastic), and has only the things I need (power switch, a few inputs, headphone output, volume control). I have no need here for surround sound (that may change, and thus a new amplifier may become necessary unfortunately), so purchasing a huge new receiver with radio (all of the stations I need are available online) and Dolby Digital is completely unnecessary. When I consider purchasing a new product, I really take the time to decide if the features that product offers are really necessary (wouldn't everyone?), and if I can get all of the features I really need in a proven piece of equipment, then I will purchase the older model. I have done this with timepieces and telephones as well (my pocketwatch is a hundred years old, and my phone is 60 years old, and both work beautifully and flawlessly). I certainly do not use my little plan on everything. For example, I do not feel the urge to daintily transport a portable phonograph with me on the DC-3 airplane. I went ahead and purchased an iPod as soon as they came out (due to their size, speed, and storage capacity), because of simple practicality. Regarding computers, I like purchasing technology that is not absolutely cutting-edge, but just shy of cutting-edge. I'm into post-modern design, so I choose to purchase mainly new decor/furniture/etc. > Overall, it is this blend of old and new that I have found a nice balance of quality, cost, and features.
but it still functions perfectly. The outer case is scratched to buggery and a lot of the silver paint has gone. Countless times I've dropped it and had it go in five different directions at once (face plate, buttons, battery cover, battery, core) but it remains problem free.
I think in part it's because it is so small. Under the covers the internals are in such a tight little package there just isn't enough room for them to wiggle about. Also that internal package is held together by screws, rather than being held together by the plastic casing as appeared to be the case in earlier phones I've had.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
BTW you can't guarantee getting something good if you buy Sony.
To say the very least.
Sony equipment I've bought that crapped out on me: 5.25" floppy disk with no hub reinforcing ring (circa 1985), a Walkman that had a constant skip on the second half of every CD, headphones that leaned to the right, a 20-inch monitor (TV, not computer) that went green after only one year of use, EverQuest, and an Aibo site that would open fine in Opera if you saved it to disk first but was programmed to redirect you to a "MS or Netscape only" page otherwise.
Sony equipment that didn't crap out on me: none.
You heard me right: every last product I *ever* bought from Sony has crapped out on me.
Ellen
mods metamodded as "Unfair"
As an avionics technician I can attest that consumer electronics is not the only field suffering.
I agree. People here wonder why I rant about my great old cars, but it's the same thing with them. Sure, the assembly quality of a Honda Accord is better than my 1970 Dodge Dart, but the Dart is overbuilt and survives the abuse of daily life far better.
Consumer electronics are the same. Back when manufacturing quality of components was poorer, the standard resistor tolerance was +/-20%! If you were designing a circuit which called for a 1k resistor, you'd have to budget on getting anything from 800 ohms to 1.2k hitting the assembly line. As a result, you specified a better rated transistor or other part. It cost a little bit more, but the net effect was that it lasted better. 5V on the supply to the logic? Okay, we'll use 6.3V electrolytic capacitors to bypass the RF! Not to mention the plastic crap everywhere...
Compare a modern VCR with a 20-year-old top-loading VHS boat anchor. Mechanically, they have to do exactly the same things to the tape. And yet the old VCR was built with steel or cast components, plastic only where it was essential. Idler pucks were sintered bronze and rubber and could be changed in minutes by a competent technician. Now, idlers are little plastic gears on plastic bearings which get loose quickly. Improved sophistication of the electronics have added features but the mechanisms are utter garbage.
Yes, I would pay more for a VCR that would last longer. Yes, I would pay extra for a motherboard that I knew had 25V capacitors on the 5V rails, or where I knew that ICs weren't pushed to their rated maximums everywhere.
I collect 1950s TV sets. Funny thing about them: steel or copper chassis, and 1/2 watt resistors everywhere, even where I calculate 1/8 watt loads. Capacitors were even more fragile then than they are now, so 450V-rated capacitors being used to filter 170V rectified AC line were commonplace. Stuff was built to last. Interestingly, only one of my antique sets came to me frankly broken; the rest needed adjustments or replacements of old (not failed) components. (I don't think I'll count 50 years of ingress of ambient humidity into a paper capacitor as a design flaw.)
I blame CAD software and automated finite element analysis for starting a trend.
If you build 500,000 units (a fairly small production run) and can cut 1 lb off the weight of a vehicle by using thinner sheetmetal in the floor, you've just saved 500,000lbs of raw steel. That's a few bucks... about $30,000, depending on the alloy and stamping considerations. The owner is not going to go out and measure the thickness of the steel of the car's floor.
To protect it from rust, you use today's improved paints to protect the floor. Of course, the underside of the car gets scratched by stones, and rust sets in. Because of the thinner steel, the floor rusts through faster. Most people scrap the car at this point; a premature end. Fine, the dry-cleaning hooks might be beautifully placed, but it's all the same to the car crusher.
To allow engineers to be able to say, "22 gauge steel will do" when instinct calls for 20-gauge, CAD and finite element analysis provide a rigorous mathematical proof that corners can be cut.
Sliderules calculated to three or four significant figures. As you went from step to step in a design calculation, you'd round things up or down automatically, and the compounded error would be far greater than it is now. But through intelligent rounding (ie. "The driver weighs 184.34lbs - call it 185 lbs..."), the error always worked out on the favor of design strength. Now, you park 12 significant digits in a variable on your calculator as you work the problem.
Note that the final design is more accurate, but the rounded-up design from a sliderule is superior in real-world survivability. Unfortunately, as margins get smaller and smaller, manufacturers are forced to adopt this tactic to save raw material.
In 1970, GM tested the first prototype of the Chevrolet Vega, which was GM's first CAD-designed car. It suffered a structural failure after only 8 miles on the test track. They had to add over 8 pounds of steel structure to reinforce the car. (Read John DeLorean's "On A Clear Day, You Can See General Motors".)
Honda cars are built out of such thin sheetmetal that I can - and have - dented them with my thumb. They derive their strength from the shape of the material, not from the material itself - it's just a four-wheeled soft drink can. This cuts cost and raises gas mileage at the expense of long-term durability. If the passenger places his or her foot hard enough on the floor, relatively modern (~1996) Accords flex enough that the brake lights go on. I wouldn't want to know where a Honda would bend if I went to Home Depot and used the trunk to bring home a couple of bags of topsoil for my flower garden.
It's easy to tell if three fat people have ever gone over a bump in the back seat of a 1981-1989 Dodge Aries or Plymouth Reliant four-door. (During the life of a car, if you think about all the weird people you've had in the car, and all the conditions you can expect.) The design budget is typically 200lb per passenger, which means that the expected rear seat load is about 600 lbs. Let's say three people at 250lbs, the load on the car's structure is 150lbs more than rated. That's effectively another person in the back seat. Go over a bump the wrong way, and bingo! You've got those trademark little cracks on the roof, right where they meet the rear pillar.
Computers in design have allowed us great things - faster design cycles, greater sophistication. But they've also taught manufacturers how to cut corners.
Fire and Meat. Yummy.
That is quality It surely is, and by the way, if it works, it's a collectible item of high value!
If you are toying with the idea of using it still, know that the lifespan of lightbulbs is very strongly determined by the voltage at which they operate. I'm not sure about the fiugres anymore (was long ago when I did my EE studies), but it's something like 100 times longer if the lightbulb operates at 20% under the nominal voltage. Ant the other thing is the switching: you better not switch it on and off too often, or do it through a low-resistant NTC element, which will basically slow down the slope of the current, effectively protecting the bulb from surges. The NTC component, as you probably know, will decrease resistance with the increase of temperature. Connected in series with the bulb if will have a hgher resistance when you turn the switch on, while gradually becoming less resistive as time passes, because it heats up.
Just some tips so you can hold on to that gem you got.
Sigged!
Hey, its not a typo its conserving letters :)
Grumble... Note to self: must proof read. must proof read.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Its not that it 'breaks down' so to speak, but 'wears out'..
Same idea but different perception by the consumer.
#1 is counter productive #2 gets return business.Even if they are the same in reality due to planning on the companies part... its all about perception.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
because i've been burnt once too often.
There is very little new technology yet Sony and others must bring out radical "innovations" every 6 months. Of course, it's all marketing drival.
Fortunately, every 6 months the warehouses have to be cleared for the next batch of tat. So you can buy last years kit at a fraction of the orginal cost if you visit the right shops or web sites.
My father bought a Pioneer A/V receiver system with dual tape deck, reverberator, amp, and a pair of Bose 901 speakers. Original cost was something like $2000, back in 1982 (!!)... It's still running beautifully today, and I just hooked up the new big-screen TV to it, and it works just as well as it did 20 years ago. It amazes me that technology from 1982 is still compatible with the technology of today.
"If at first you don't succeed, lower your standards."
heh, install Yellow Dog Linux
I'll bet a lot of people here have grandparents who still have a refrigerator or freezer from the 50's. How many of us have a refrigerator that's still running after even 15 years? My parents still have their original washer and dryer, and I'm 33. *My* dryer's making really bad sounds after just 8 years. My point is that electronics are just following the same path as appliances.
And don't buy warranties. It would seem that it's much more likely that the company supposedly backing the product - appliance or electronics - will go out of business just before you need to avail yourself of that warranty. You want quality? You need to pay for it up front.
Acts 17:28, "For in Him we live, and move, and have our being."
What? Struggling Economy??? Nooooo, those would only be problems with things in the last 1-2 years. If anything, I'd have expected BETTER products 3 years ago, since we were still in too-much-cashflow dotbomb land. I know most of that money went to buying rounds at the bar, plane tickets, new cars for various CEO's and such... but surely at least a little bit might have made it into the quality control budget (being that there was so much extra cash)?
I still have a 15 year old Mitsubishi hi-fi stereo vcr. The tuner is finally about shot, and the heads need realigning, so about 3 years ago I bought a new vcr for 1/3 the price ($179 vs. $379) thinking since they're so prevalent these days if I bought one of the slightly better models (average price was $129 then) it should be fairly decent right? Nope... piece of shite. Weighs about 3 ounces so I had to put something behind it so pushing a tape in didn't move the vcr back. Tuner works well, tracking system is marginal, and feature-set? My 15-year-old vcr had actual front-panal controls... yes... you could work the thing without the remote!
So yes, I think quality has gone right out the window, and because of the Economic downturn, it will probably get worse before it gets better.
Back in the 1960s ot 70s, Chrysler began designing a new engine, the Slant 6 - Originally, the engine was designed to be made of aluminum for weight reasons.
At some point, management decided that aluminum was too expensive, and moved to cast iron for the engine. But they used the aluminum-based design unmodified. Now, while aluminum is much lighter than iron, it's not nearly as strong, and as a result the Slant 6 was one of the most reliable engines ever made, because all of its parts were designed around a weaker material than what was used. Yes, fuel economy suffered, but reliability was amazing.
Same goes for their transmissions - Older Chrysler transmissions (And even recent 3-speed automatics, which have a heritage dating back to the old Torqueflites) were heavy, inefficient, but practically bulletproof. Their 4-speed electronically controlled automatic should theoretically be more reliable - Modern design, electronic monitoring and control, etc. Unfortunately, because it's lighter and more complex, the A604 is nicknamed the sick-oh-four. Actually, the sick-oh-four is probably a good example of your comment in action.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Okay, I'll show my ignorance, probably. Or maybe make a good point. Who knows, this can go either way!
Isn't that the only thing you can possibly base an economy on? Or, rather, economic growth on? Added value into natural resources? Be it growing food from the earth, or mining iron out of it to make a car, that's where an economy grows, not relentlessly passing those goods around.
Or, in this case, taking some oil and sand, turning it into plastic, glass, and electronics, and selling it as a DVD player... In my opinion, that's why a service economy is the death warrant that America has been pushing upon itself for ages - you rely on other people to make your economic growth for you, and then take the weath they create, and give it to you for services... While being industrial has other problems - think polution - at least you're *making* something.
Keep in mind I've never had an economics course. Ever. Be gentle! =p
you forgot the 10 seconds each FBI warnings in english, spanish, serbo-croatian and 20 other languages that you can't skip...
I thought Packard Smell went out of business because their machines sucked so badly?
As to quality/reliability - Compaq has always been one of the worst. Was second worst in the Packard Smell days (with Packard Smell being the worst), worst now if PS is gone - I haven't seen them in ages.
Hmm... Packard Bell's site shows them as a division of NEC now. Interestingly enough, they do not appear to have any US presence, www.packardbell.com has no choice for North America. Probably because their name is so badly tarnished.
H-P before the Compaq merger was interesting - They had some excellent machines. But their "consumer-level" machines were Compaq-grade crap. Now after the merger... ugh.
eMachines used to actually be pretty good - I reccommended an eMachines box to a friend back in the PIII-500 days and it's still running wonderfully. Dunno about now.
If you want pre-built, go with the more well-known manufacturers. Dell and Gateway come to mind first. Dunno if Quantex is still in business - They were less-known, but had good prices on great systems. Alienware is excellent quality, but not worth the exorbitant price.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Without starting a war here, the high end includes Sennheisers and Grados. The Sennheiser 600s are fantastic, but they will set you back about $300.
insert a buffer battery on the power supply of your car stereo deck...
you are probably victim of the macrovision shit...
If you're in the US or any other country that does CDMA, you should try getting a Kyocera. I know many people with Kyos and they're not only cheap phones but reliable. My old 2035a lasted through 2-3 years of rough use without a single problem. Only reason I replaced it was because I wanted a 6035 (Integrated PalmOS PDA and phone) - The 6035 also has a reputation for being very rugged. People have dropped them down stairs onto concrete witho no problems whatsoever. Except for StarTACs, I've heard good things about Motorola phones also. Their low end v120c is basic, all plastic, but it's tough plastic and the phone is pretty sturdy.
If you're stuck in Europe with GSM - Well, sorry, can't help you.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Yeah, I know. "Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics." But there are, believe it or not, good studies out there among the bad. Just once, for pure novelty's sake, I wish /.'ers would try looking at/pointing to one instead of the hacknied "I'm pulling this stat out of my ass. Or the mouth of my sister's friend's brother's cousin who once worked for X company."
The quality of consumer electronics may or may not have declined. Bob may have bought a TV in '93 that didn't last as long as the one his family had in '75. Joe loves his snazzy new radio that's much better than the piece of junk on the market in the 80's. How do we know who's right? How about numbers like average defective returns? How about the average rate consumers replace their items? I'm sure there has to be some kind of reliable government/industry data out there. How about checking Consumer Reports?
Perhaps the quality of consumer electronics has gone down. But prima facie it sounds like "why, when I was a boy..." Certainly the quality of American cars these days is much better than in the 70's. The quality of medical care is better too. Long distance service is the best it's ever been since the invention of that machine. The point is, economics is all about constraints & competition. If a manufacturer can improve his profit margin by using poorer quality components, he will. If he has to improve the quality of his components to improve his profit margin, he will. It all depends.
Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
you have forgotten one thing in your calculation. The cost of getting rid of more equipment (when it's dead) in the case of product B, which is about the same for each instance as product A.
Say, for example, recycling product A or B costs about 10, then product A is cheaper for society.
OK, this is somewhat obtuse, but try to follow.
Investors in public corporations can make money two ways: dividend payments, and stock price inflation. At this point, outside sectors with special tax privileges, just about no corporations are paying dividends. Why? Double taxation, and higher rates. For a given chunk of profit, the corporations pay their taxes on the profit, then the dividend is payed to the investor, who has to pay taxes again on the same money, at his income tax rate. When a stock price goes up, the company does not pay taxes on it, and the investor can use the increase to sell the stock, with profits taxed at the lower capital gains rates. So it makes very little sense to pay dividends given our tax structure.
"So, what does this have to do with consumer electronics quality?" you're asking. In order to make the stock price go up, a company has to show earnings growth quarter-to-quarter. It makes sense to slash costs across the board, especially quality, throw in a bunch of half-implemented features, and market the thing to death because it will increase demand, increase orders, thus revenue. Increased revenue is what makes the stock go up. If they sell 10 CD players this quarter, but have to take 6 back next quarter, it's OK because the corporate model is to think quarter-on-quarter. Plus, with a high failure rate, they're guaranteed future revenues for out-of-warranty failures (new purchases), even if it's divided among the big manufacturers.
If we were to eliminate double-taxation of dividends, dividends would be the preferred form of investment, because as long as the company is profitable, it's a safer investment than stock market gains (see 2001,2002). Then, the companies could stop worrying about quarterly revenues and start worrying about real profitability, which comes from satisfied customers, reputation, and repeat purchases.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I think that every industry goes through this cycle of low quality at some point. In the 60's and 70's it was the automobile industry. The "big three" American automobile manufacturers decided during that period that what American consumers wanted was a cheap car that they could drive for a couple of years and then replace. So, they made crap and sold it cheap. I know what I'm talking about on this one. My father collects old cars, and I myself own a 1966 Ford Mustang. It's my baby, and I wouldn't sell it for anything, but I can also recognize that it's a piece of junk. I usually end up doing major repair work on it at least once a year in order to keep it on the road (and it only has 60,000 miles on it).
This isn't a permanent spiral away from quality, though. Eventually, technology will reach an equilibrium point where people start to want to buy quality products that will last again. It won't be today's major manufacturers that will offer that quality, though. It will be new upstarts who see a need and fill it, discovering (much to the surprise and chagrin of today's major manufacturers) that people really do like quality. In the automobile industry, it was the Japanese who came in and started selling an affordable quality car that lasted, and almost put the American auto manufacturers out of business in the 80's (one or more of the probably would have if the government hadn't saved them). So, although current quality probably is headed downward in consumer electronics, that doesn't mean that we're stuck with junk forever and ever. Just think what's going to happen when we rebuild the economies of Afghanistan and Iraq after the war, and they realize that they can start competing with us in the consumer electronics market.
"If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."
When I buy groceries, I look for the cheapest brand. I buy the biggest size of the cheapest brand, so as to achieve the lowest possible unit cost. Most of the time, this works great. There isn't much you can do to screw up a jar of peanut butter without triggering FDA intervention and a very expensive recall. If it tastes lousy, I'll buy a different brand next time. Those who make lousy peanut butter are quickly squeezed off the store shelves because people stop buying.
When people apply the same evaluation to consumer electronics, they encourage manufacturers to cut corners. Make no mistake about it, the manufacturers do this because consumers want the end result -- a cheap product with lots of features. The problem that when people buy a piece of junk the ability to buy something better next time is not going to be anytime soon.
I own an $89 VCR. Since all the brands are crap these days, my selection criteria was entirely based on price. In ancient times, I owned a $600 top-loader that weighed about 40 lbs. By the time the heads wore out on that beast, it was uneconomical to fix because the new "junk" VCRs were available for less than the cost of repair. In fact, there wasn't much you could fix on the old VCR without spending $89. If the new one breaks, it's disposable. My $600 boat anchor from 1982 would cost maybe $1500 or so in 2002 dollars, and I don't see anyone willing to pay $1500 for a no-frills, non cable-ready VCR.
If consumers really wanted reliability, the VCR market would have evolved toward enormous cast iron VCRs, with whopper power supplies, titanium heads that spin with a washing machine motor, connected with stainless steel gears, all at a Pentagon price. You would buy it once, take a few years to pay for it, and ultimately pass it down to future generations as a family heirloom.
The consumer electronics industry is unique in that even poorly made products will usually become obsolete before they die. The never-ending parade of new features and reduced cost means we tolerate all kinds of shortcuts because we'll get tired of that PDA in a year or two, and the replacement will cost less than the current model (maybe even less than repairing the current model). Compare this to the power tool market, where professionals cheerfully pay a premium for brands that last. Even non-professionals want the "good" brands.
Unfortunately, the free market has not been kind to the electronics manufacturers who used to make things that last. We [consumers] have mostly ourselves to blame.
LRC, the best-read libertarian site on the web
I beg to differ. Sometimes, you pay disproportionally more since the manufacturer has decided that by making a great market reputation for exclusiveness, they can skimp on quality. Look at Bang & Olufssen. Great looking product, possibly good lifetime (don't know), but the performance you are getting for your money is terrible.
The fundamental problem is actually that it is unprofitable to create high-quality products. That way, you would only sell new hardware when a new standard arises. By creating a lower quality product, they've ensured that some consumers are on their fifth cd player since they bought their first one in the late 80s.
Really. In statistics class, there was a lot of focus on tuning quality so that the products would be _just_ reliable enough. Being pseudo-buddhist, I prefer to think that things come back at you.
Stop the brainwash
I've been in and out of most of the electronic gadgets in my house since I was a kid. Without a doubt quality has declined and friendliness to repair attempts is deplorable. Try opening your average portable electronic device. If you somehow got it apart without snapping at least one cheap plastic clip/post, try getting it back together with the same goal in mind. It's virtually impossible these days, as things are made to be assembled quickly and thrown away when they break.
About a year ago I got a new hobby: Metalworking. Before you groan and mod me as OT, let me explain. One of the greatest things about this hobby is the equipment. Whether it's a lathe, mill, shaper, etc., it's designed to be tinkered with. Nothing is destroyed when you disassemble the thing, and it goes together without having little springy bits flying off like shrapnel when they break. There are many mods available for them and you can be confident that the thing will work once you get it back together unless you grossly butcher the job. And the best part is that you get this kind quality with cheaper Chinese-made equipment.
I'm not sure why it's different for this equipment, although I'm guessing it might have something to do with the relative popularity of the hobby vs. the number of people who purchase consumer electronics every day.
Yes, you have it exactly right, as near as I can figure. Unfortunately, there's a problem. Economic "growth" based on exploiting natural and human resources is necessrily finite -- there's only a finite amount of natural and human resources to go around.
We as a species are already getting into trouble because of the (unintentional) consequenses of unfettered growth, such as increasing water scarcity, desertification, and pollution. These suggest there ought to be another way of looking at an economy (maybe redefine it as a "monetary ecology"?)...
After all, in most cases, you don't call unrestricted growth "good," you call it "cancer."
I'm not a geek, I'm just a clever script.
The Head Room website www.headphone.com. They have realy detailed descriptions and an excelent variety to choose from to match your needs.
Most PCBs, especially large-volume consumer grade devices, use only surface-mount components (SMC). These things cannot be replaced by a human being. They are soldered through a vapor deposition process. Just the heat of an approaching soldering iron melts the solder film and the passives pop out of the board. Litteraly.
When a prototype has to be reworked, it takes extraordinary time and precaution to replace, say, ASIC # 5 with netlist v 19.6 because v 19.7 fixes a bug. The rework equipment alone costs a fortune. No way this can be done by regular repair shops. So the boards are always replaced, never repaired, when they fail. So much for the repair market.
Wave-soldered PCBs don't fare better. This type of soldering requires post-assembly cleaning to remove the corrosive resin that deposit around the solder pads. You use a warm solvent bath to do that. But in recent years (since the late 90s), new regulations have banned these solvents because of ozone holes or something. It means that you now have to use extremely aggressive, toxic, inflammable benzine-based solvent instead. And not in an open tank anymore, or you'd kill everyone in the building. Way too dangerous.
So in these production lines, PCB are not cleaned anymore. The resin remains on the pad and slowly corrodes the copper of the PCB. Sooner or later, within a few years (especially in humid climates), a connection will fail, and your whole assembly, if not the whole unit, will go to the trash dump.
So these well-meaning environmentalists that wanted to save the world ended up accelerating the production of trash! Sad, huh?
--
Mad science! Robots! Underwear! Cute girls! Full comic online! http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/
Apparently, people would never buy the phone if it felt like the cheap peice of 3"x2" circuit board that really was!
Anyone else wish electronics were much heavier?
My 10 month old Sony VCR (that I got as a gift) is so light, every time I pop in a tape, it gets pushed a little further back into the console. Every couple of weeks I have to pull the VCR back to the front of the shelf.
My 14 year old Sharp VCR doesn't have that problem, it weighs at least four times as much and stays put. I would stack the heavy one on top of the light one, but it's practically twice the size. I'd epoxy the Sony to the shelf, but figure it's going to die soon anyway.
Corded phones- I still like corded phones, but they're so light nowadays when you walk away from the desk, you pull the base with you. The old bases were heavy enough that didn't happen, but now you pretty much have to screw the thing to a wall or your desk.
TVs- ok, it's nice that TVs are much lighter, easier to move, especially when you have kids who end up losing stuff behind the tv console.
-- If god wanted me to have a sig, he'd have given me a sense of humor.
Having worked for a semiconductor company that supplies chips for consumer electronics, I have a little insight.
First, consumer electronics makers are cheap. They will do ANYTHING to save a buck on the bill of materials. If this means skimping on a power supply, or ommitting some protection circuits, they will do it. Their goals are 1) regulatory compliance (UL in the US) and 2) low RMA's.
Secondly, the consumer cannot distinguish "quality." They things that the consumer can see have no real relation to the quality of the design. How would you know if they power supply is very ripply? How would you know that they left out some filter capacitors. Price or brand is no indicator, that's all driven by marketting. For the consumer to determine the quality, they would have to take apart the device and then analyze it like an engineer. Doesn't happen. Reviews don't help-- the reviewer doesn't know anything either. Think of the quality test most consumers do of a stereo: they go to the store and turn up the volume. What does that tell them?
Also, the electronics that you buy today are considerably more complicated than that of yesteryear. Consider a stereo. Twenty years ago, it was just a collection of transistors and power supplies. Now they have micro controllers, DSP, codec's, etc. There is a lot more to go wrong. Pluse a lot more corner cutting that you can do. Besides, once you throw software into the mix, you get bugs.
Lastly, buy the $49 APEX DVD player. The part that will fail is going to be the DVD mechanism. Do you think there is a big difference between the one APEX buys and the one Sony buys? They're probably both made by TEAC.
IMHO
These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
Yeah, the CMS drives sucked, but we those were shipped with the original (309?) 6MHz AT.
We got our 339s (8MHz, 101Key) in early '87, just before they dropped the product line. They had switched drive vendors by then.
Fascism starts when the efficiency of the government becomes more important than the rights of the people.
so long as people demand 'the lowest price is the law', Quality will tend in a worse direction.
john
I know this thread has died, but I have to speak up.
In college I sold bikes. Real bikes. I sold 200-2000 dollar solidly made bikes out of several stores in southern california. Countless people would go into the store, look at the cheapest bikes we had, and would leave to go to target to throw their money away on a $200 full - suspension garbage pile with the front fork on backwards, the brake levers sticking straight up, easily stripped everything, and no clause at all for maintenence. I'd say about %30 of our business was coming from people who had just thrown out a crumbled Costco / Target / KMart bike after 6 months of use. A large part of this problem is that consumers just don't have the attention span anymore. They want it, they want it now, and they don't need to know how it works. They buy from Target because it's easy, cheap, and safe... and nobody tries to explain anything to them. Who wants to know that unused cables have a breaking in period, and so to keep your bike in adjustment you have to bring it back after 3 months of use... or risk damaging it? Who cares that plastic brake handles bend instead transmitting the force of your arm? And we were in the lucky position that we could explain all of these things to the consumer, because it was all visible if you knew what was going on. The only thing you can judge DVD players on is the look of the box it comes in and the reported failure rates... the latter of which is very difficult to come by, even for employees.
Perhaps we should have mandatory lifespan markings like the FDA markings on soup? I could tell a customer (if they asked) that I have VistaLites that are over 15 years old and have been swimming, skiing, have had the case melted, and have been dropped from the third floor and still work, and that CatEyes generally crap out in a very short period of time... but wouldn't it be easier for people if that was just on the box?
If the Cue Cat was linked to epinions, it could have been a very empowering tool. In my case, many people learned their lesson. Sadly, a sucker is always born to replace them. And many people didn't, leading to the treadmil replacement cycle. I was nearly run over last year by someone on a brand new Target bike whose builder hadn't bothered to put the nuts on the front wheel.
This has got to have a cost to society.
-C
This Sig is a mnemonic device designed to allow you to recognize this author in the future.
Input signal amplitude and volume control (which is usually just an input attenuator) combine to produce an excitation signal whose amplitude, or level, determines what the output level of the amp is.
But this one goes to 11.
I think there are several reasons for lowering quality. I've been lamenting about the ever-decreasing quality in consumer goods for some time.
I think there are several reasons for the decline:
1. Products are getting more complex and competition more intense. Most consumer electronic products are very sophisticated compared to what was sold even 10 years ago. A DVD player is basically a miniature and specialized computer and it has a large software component. In my experience, most have some issues. There always seems to be some DVD that will hang a player. The increased competition forces manufacturers to get products out quickly. As soon as something new is introduced, everyone has to have it available. This leads to short cuts in testing, and they miss stuff.
2. Software quality is decreasing. This has been discussed before about PC software, but I believe it applies to embedded software as well. As everything is software controlled and there is so much more of it, there are more opportunities for bugs. I bought a top of the line Toshiba DVD player, as I wanted quality and features. I found that most DVD players were different just based on features (software features, at that, which makes it even cheaper for them with one set of hardware and multiple software downloads.) At least one DVD (Monster's Inc's bonus disc) could lock up the machine. It has usability issues, some common items like getting the time remaining takes 6 button clicks. However, it has tons of modes, options, zooms, navi-guides, virtual remote, etc. My new JVC TV, JVC VCR, new receivers, etc. all have large amounts of software behind the scenes. As an aside, I'd love it if there was a consumer electronics software standard where I could buy something, download their software and make changes and I'd be happy to customized and make it work better and share it with the world.
3. As mentioned, people look at price first. However, they aren't too smart. Some prices are increasing (e.g. grocery stores, department stores) because it's much harder to compare prices. But it's easy for electronics and other consumer goods (fans, lights, furniture, cookware, small appliances, etc.) Indeed, people by what's cheap. Everything is plastic and engineered with no room for error. Small manufacturing defects cause complete product failure. Now my new DVD play sometimes can't retract the tray in all the way on the first try. This is after less than one year. Getting it repaired, even under warranty, is such a pain. My two-year-old JVC SVHS VCR sometimes won't take a tape. They are all plastic, of course. I bought a window fan that was like 90% plastic that was dropped in the packaging, and broke due to insufficient supports on the motor. No room for error. At least one can still get high-quality furniture! Is there any furniture you get at Walmart, target or Ikea that you'd honestly want to "pass down" to your children? (As anything other than firewood?)
4. Marketing is another problem. People used to research big purchases on specifications (at least all my friends did, or they'd ask someone more knowledgeable.) People are now more apt to make an impulsive purchase. Plus, now they look at which TV is brighter, or which one "looks better" or has catching buzz phrases, "new technology", etc. In fact, read Sound and Vision magazine, most TVs come set to bright they will burn themselves out! They do this so they look better on the showroom floor. Newer isn't always better. I bought a new Seimens 2.4 GHz because it looked interesting and my brother loved them. I sent 5 back under warranty. I even got the technician to admit that 2.4 GHz technology is inferior to 900 MHz DSS as it is more susceptible to interference and can't go through objects as good (walls, trees, etc.) Of course, everyone is now convinced that the higher the MHz, the better! They even advertise longer range, but then compared to old 900 MHz analog phones. I can't even get outside my garage with my 2.4 GHz phone, but can get to my neighbors with my 900 MHz DSS. Now we have 5.8 GHz, good luck!
5. Incompatibilities are growing (many as a result of the RIAA, MPAA). So you want that new HTDV set? Well, the tuner won't work on cable. The digital out from your new cable box is incompatible with your set's input. Gee, you can't run digital audio from your DVD-Audio player to your receiver. How many multi-channel audio formats to we need? DVD-Audio, Super Audio, DTD, Dolby Digital, etc. Can't connect your DVD player to your VCR if you run out of inputs (Macrovision), can't do proper bass management for multi-channel audio, some DVD player can't play CD-Rs, some can't play DVD-RW, some can't play DVD-RAM, some play MP3, but not VBR MP3. How many of us have a computer that's only a few years old that won't even run the latest Windows?
6. Buying habits are another coupled with planned obsolescence. People like getting new stuff, so why make it last 10 years? Why get a DVD player that will last 10 years, when we'll have super DVD or HD-DVD to make it all obsolete. Why make a PC last 4 years, when it will be a doorstop in 2? Sure you could get a nice new TV today, but after everything moves to digital, you'll need a box or a new TV. It's easier to get a new TV.
So, I buy much less stuff than I used to. At least there is some measure of quality remaining in amateur radio!
I don't know, but it works for me.
Thanks for the clarification. I was trying to remember the site I read the description of the /6 history at, and I think it was either yours or somewhere linked to from yours. :)
As to 604 derivatives and ATF+3 - Even with ATF+3 (And the successor ATF+4, reccomended for all 4-speed automatics) they're not too hot. I know quite a few people who have had 604s barf on them even though they always used ATF+3. If you change the transmission fluid every 15-30k miles you should be fine and it'll last forever, but most transmissions don't need fluid changes that often. Of course, I agree on the problem of people putting in the wrong fluids - Even a small amount of Dexron or Mercon will destroy a 604 in not too long. That's why my family's Chryslers only go to a Five-Star Dodge dealer with an excellent reputation whom we trust for transmission work, or we do it ourselves. (You can't even trust all Chrysler dealers to do it right... But we have a local dealer that is *excellent*)
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
No, no, you get fucked on the shipping if you use eBay. Go to your local computer chop shop, or (better yet) a computer show---Cogan Fairs in New England, for instance---and pick them up for one or two bucks each.
Though, a buck each, including shipping, ain't bad.
--grendel drago
Laws do not persuade just because they threaten. --Seneca
Amusingly enough I think DVD players are the absolute exception to th whole debate.
There isn't a huge difference between a $100C (75us?) DVD player and a $200C DVD player. The only feature I bought SPECIFICLY in my last DVD purchase was component outputs. If it weren't for that I would not have replaced my DVD player. (The one I had worked fine, I gave it to my parents, it cost about $200C when I bought it. Worked BETTER than any of the $400+ ones I had seen and used at the same time.
BUT, as a dyed-in-the-wool CAE developer, I have to defend the honor of my humble profession. CAD/CAM/CAE offers a HUGE advantage for design engineers/analysts even if you leave out the design 'shortcuts'. Remember that NASTRAN, the grand-pappy of all FEA solvers, is a product of NASA and is still used to help analyze the designs of probably every component on the shuttle, as well as every other extreme-tolerence aerospace device manufactured in the US and the other tech-heavy countries.
Again, your point's valid, but we musn't blame the technology for what the CEOs dictate. This is no different than blaming mp3 technology for rampant copyright violations, or the Internet for rampant porn. All technology will and can be abused.
That being said, CAE is very sexy, geek-heavy technology. When we grow out of this infancy that mankind is still caught up in, someday when company heads care about products and the people that use them more than their yachts, we'll see what these products can really do for us.
And what do you mean, 'automated FEA'? They're taint much automated about it! Not many vanilla-plain CAD operaters using CAE--FEA is still an _expensive_, time-consuming endeavor, and the engineering analysts who use products the like of hypermesh and i-deas (often PhD's) are simply the bestar-teests of geekdom. ;-)
What about enjoying that snazzy 5.1 surround sound. Isn't that impossible with headphones since there are only 2 speakers?
So certain are you, hmmmm? ; )
But we only have 2 ears!
Seriously, there are products that will take 5.1 channels and encode them into 2 channels with phase variations that our brain decodes as behind, below and above us, etc, for headphone usage.
I think the unit I listened to was a Sennheiser unit, which didn't really tickle my fancy.
I would limit my home theatre enjoyment to multiple speakers merely because the movies are made with that in mind and I doubt a "5.1 encoding into 2" box would ever give as good a surround effect.
In movies I would probably put surround effect slightly ahead of the extreme quality I would want for music listening sessions.
AC-3 and DTS don't sound that great to me anyway.
War crimes, torture, lies, illegal spying... Would someone give Bush a blowjob, already, so he can be impeached?
My recollection of the Slant-6's genesis was that it derived/inspired from/by a Porsche design for a tank/armored vehicle engine. The goal was to get a very long stroke but have a low block height (undersquare bore/stroke ratio).
No, the 170 CID (2.8L) was the first Slant-6. The 198 was a bored 170, allowing owners a larger motor with more power as a low-buck alternative option to the smallblock (273 and 318CID) V8s. I don't think the Valiant was offered with a V8 at all until 1964.
The bored and stroked 225 came out later, with even more available power - but because of the long stroke, the emphasis was more on torque than horsepower.
The 170 was dropped with the advent of EGR and other parasitic energy-wasting emissions control systems. Also, cars were getting heavier because of requirements like 5 MPH crash-absorbing bumpers. With the technology of the day, in a Valiant, that meant a front bumper which was over 100lbs of chromed steel on heavy telescopic steel and rubber supports.
The 170 was discontinued in ~1970 (but it was rare even then) and the 198 was discontinued in ~1972.
I recall the aluminum version - didn't they put out a Sprint pack early on? Friend of mine had (might still have) a 65-6 Valiant convertible with a 225(might have been 200?) and a Hurst 4-spd.The Hyper Pack, it was called. Yes. There were different varieties, ranging from 3 two-barrel carburetors to one four-barrel carburetor on a very long aluminum tunnel-ram intake manifold. Personally, I've got an aftermarket Offenhauser 4-barrel intake which takes about a 600 CFM Carter AFB or AVS. I think it would also fit a ThermoQuad, but I've never found such a small TQ!
The 200 CID displacement is probably a 198 bored 0.030" over, someone changed the rings along the line. The 198 and 225 blocks can go 0.060" over and then some before you need to resleeve the block.
The 4-speed would be a Chrysler A-833 - the manual transmission designed to stand up to the awesome 426 Hemi - with a Hurst shifter to clean up the slop in the Chrysler/Hurst OEM shifter. So far as I know, all the A-833 transmissions had a Hurst OEM shifter.
Neat car, 300K plus on it's 4th top & first engine.Well, I dunno about it being *that* fast, but they were certainly respectable cars for theirs or any time. On modern tires, the Valiant also out-handles a lot of mega-buck exotic cars. Even on an economy car like the Valiant, Chrysler didn't skimp on engineering. The adjustable torsion-bar front suspension is living proof of that, and the fact that the knuckles are designed to get the centerline of the wheel as close to the centerline of the balljoints is an extremely impressive feat of design. (Compare it to the distance between the top-plates and the centerlines of the wheels on a modern MacPherson-strut vehicle. They're cheap and light, but MacPherson struts are crap.)
Fire and Meat. Yummy.