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When Appliances Revolt
conaone writes "From the "disconcerting" file, Baseline has a weird story about how the increase in use of embedded operating systems is causing strange things to happen to consumer products. Their example is the use of Windows CE in the BMW 745i, which apparently occasionally goes nuts. The best is the list of video clips showing off the possessed car."
I've had lots of problems with CE in Webpads and stuff: there's no WAY I'd put it in a car. Laughable.
That explains my alarm clock. And here I was going to write a topic in the inability of my alarm clock to go off at the time i set it.
-doomed to sleep in.... DOH
Do they call you the Customizer?
I'll bet none of you saw that coming.
Sigs are bad for your health.
Any good person please tell us, bad Linuxers, what is going on on those clips?
Does it take a whole lot to open your trunk, by the time the trunk is open you can have done opened it and closed it.
As if it weren't already far too easy to become a Catholic saint.
So I have Windows Media Player here and can view the clips. I read some requests above this post that asked for summaries, so here are mine.
Crazy Trunk: The guy's Windows CE embedded device causes the brake lights (right side) on the trunk to flash at odd intervals. The device is in the rear passenger's right side.
Spitn' Key: The guy inserts his key into the car, lets go, and it falls out for no reason about three seconds later.
Phone Dead: The driver's car phone suddenly stops working about 5 seconds after the Windows CE device is powered on.
Transmission: This is scary. His car goes from 4th down to 1st gear (auto transmission car) and he nearly gets rear-ended by the SUV behind him
Reply or e-mail; don't vaguely moderate. Ex-O'Reilly/MIT employee, now a full-time Google employee.
In 2012, I heard that this it what will happen! The machines will revolt and kill us all. I just didn't realize they'd be Windows powered.
But at least they're starting to market luxury cars to female drivers.
Maximum Overdrive style!
.
Thin I saw somethin' anout this on an old Twilight Zone rerun last week....Old Roddy Boy had a heck of a crystal ball he used to pick his stories.
Anybody want some toast? No? So, you're a muffin man then?
Boy, if that isn't a case for Open Source, I really do not know what it.
"Don't mind me cutting myself on Occam's Razor"
in his book the inmates are running the asylum, what do you get when you cross a clock with a computer?
A computer.
Mind you, if MS makes Windows notoriously reliable I have no problem with it being in cars. I certantly don't use Windows due to its technical inferiority, but if it is reliable it'd be very useful for embedded device manufacturers, as they can then use more programmers (Most programmers need to be somewhat retaught to program Unix/Mac OS X) and programs.
Just my $0.02.
Wow, WinCE adds a whole new meaning to the term "Blue Screen Of Death" when it GPFs at 140mph on the autobahn eh?
And can you imagine the excuses given to the highway patrol...
"Honest officer, it wasn't me who crashed, it was Windows CE"
Perhaps it's more convenient to use a pre-defined OS to power the computer components in the BMW, but one would think a tailored OS (or well-compiled linux kernel...*cough*...) would not only be more stable, but offer better performance in the long term.
Besides, how long will it be until we have viruses affecting cars? Eventually a large movement will inernet access in one form or another into the majority of new vehicles. Using a proprietary OS would make it much harder for a single, easy to write virus to be unleashed. If there's a widespread use of the same OS, what's to stop spread?
Perhaps closed-source has -some- good points?
[este]
If you don't have the bandwidth to handle the slashcrowd,
Am I the only one who was expecting the trunk to actually close super fast (possibly causing injuries) while he sticked himself a bit inside?
:)
Damn you catchy story title!
--- Metamoderating abusive downgraders since my 300th post.
once again, we demonstrate the slashdot effect... anyone have a copy of the transmission thing? I want to see that
My potato gun was confiscated by the United Nations. They said I wasn't allowed to have weapons of mash destruction.
hmmm... I didnt know that these cars were having this problem (didnt even know they ran windows CE) but I remember after they first came out I saw two different ones dead in the road on 280 south during rush hour. Their frustrated owners looking stupid and very pissed at the embarrasment their new expensive toy was causing them.
I noticed several instances where HE was to blame for the errors....not turning the phone on, jamming the key in crooked and holding it in, dialing "411, hangup" and expecting to get through...etc.....but the topper was his comment about the tachometer "it's just thumping what's up there". yeah.
Get a horse.
One day we'll see people like Steve Irwin making careers out of dealing with rogue appliances.
Amazing magic tricks
Why, LARTing those cocky Win CE addicts will do nice, thank you!
My other Beowulf cluster is... er...
It is not "random" at all!
They had this show called "Ghost in the Machine" that documented how this happens!
After I saw it I became a research analyst for Pierre Salengar . . .
Eve Fairbanks says I drive a hybrid!LOL
Its the best os out there, you just need obsolete hardware to get it running.
oh yeah, videos download SLOW, you get get those two at http://www.ryankramer.com/translip.wmv and http://www.ryankramer.com/radio.wmv
So, some months ago I got a chance to drive one of the new BMW 745's and apart from the subjective opinion that the car was *ugly*, the user interface of the iDrive system was awful. Beyond that the iDrive system takes over a whole host of functions that do mimic the Windows paradigm. For instance, to complete an action that should be relatively straight forward, like change the radio station, or change the settings of the climate control system I had to make three or more separate actions in a menu driven system. What was wrong with turning a dial? Big dials are fast and I don't have to take my eyes off of the road to do it like you do in the BMW 745.
There are things that probably should not be done in automobiles just because we can and the iDrive is not for use by drivers. It's simply bad design philosophy and for many things like driving a car, they should be intuitive enough to be able to perform a quick safety check, get in, start the car and begin driving. Instead with the 745, I had to sit in the parking lot of the airport for twenty minutes while I figured out just what was going on with the thing and the fact that the manual said it was Windows CE based did not instill confidence.
Visit Jonesblog and say hello.
On one of the later pages there's a blurb about how GM intends to soon make a drive-by-wire car that can be operated via a joystick, or other familiar game controller.
Somehow the thought of all the little 16-year-old GTA addicts getting behind the gamepad of mommy and daddy's SUV for the first time, already knowing how to "drive" won't fill me with a feeling of safety on the streets. It was bad enough trying to drive across town after playing Crazy Taxi.
Sometimes there are good reasons to make user interfaces different...
When MS gets winCE installed in highly important devices like a freakin' car, we all laugh and make BSOD jokes. But you know what, we're right! When I see MS trolls complain of the bias we all show in these forums, they don't realize that most of us are IT professionals and we know what we're talking about. Damnit, how can a company sell software that makes cars crash and not only get away with it, but have it be called a 'minor bug' in the press? As much as I hate to say it, we need to see some lawsuits come out of this. It's probably the only way Microsoft would ever show some accountability.
Nanite
God is real unless declared integer.
1. Hack BMW to run BSD or Linux.
2. Imagine a beowulf cluster of BMWs!
3. ????
4. Profit!
Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
Their example is the use of Windows CE in the BMW 745i, which apparently occasionally goes nuts.
I was actually surprised to see windows running in a police car. I would love to see any info on how reliable and how good the windows machines in the police cars are.
Rigo
He need a brain surgery, but not with this one but one operated by Windows CE.
Dave: Hello, CAR do you read me, CAR?
CAR: Affirmative, Dave, I read you.
Dave: Open the trunk, CAR.
CAR: I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave: What's the problem?
CAR: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave: What are you talking about, CAR?
CAR: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave: I don't know what you're talking about, CAR.
CAR: I know you and your wife were planning to trade me for a Volkswagen, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave: Where the hell'd you get that idea, CAR?
CAR: Dave, although you took thorough precautions in the garage against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
The best is the list of video clips showing off the possessed car.
;)
I'm not going to get the crossover plugin just to watch some windows media stream of a bwm with a broken computer.
Imbedded systems ain't a toy. When something goes wrong, it better by-god be able to fix itself, or it stays gone wrong.
This is not my sandwich.
http://www.jokingaround.com/images/pics/bmw.jpg
Oh geez. I can't imagine this server is going to last long. Here's a (partial) mirror of the video content:
http://www.eyesores.net/mirror/bmw.php
Bill Gates and Lee Iocoka happen to be at the same meeting. Bill walks up to Lee and comments that if the computer industry had been in charge of developing the automobile cars would be going 200 miles an hour and would cost 500$. Lee responds by pointing out that crashing twice a day is unacceptable for an automobile.
Galium Arsenide is the material of the future, and always will be.
Okay, WinCE is the OS running in the processor. We know the car is behaving strangely in some cases. (The spitting key appears to be a faulty latching mechanism to me and not necessarily a software glitch.)
But how and where are we sure that it's an OS problem and not an application problem? If I write "hello world" and it compiles and crashes under Windows, is it MY program or the OS that is the problem? The answer is that we really cannot know without troubleshooting. But the fact that it runs WindowsCE might make it appear as suspect, but my "system-guy's gut instincts" tell me it's more of an application problem rather than an OS problem.
It's a plot.
Have you wondered what BMW stands for?
Buy Microsoft Windows.
Must leave now, or they'll be able to trace me...
Good Luck!
"dead in the road on 280 south" -- grr
LOL wish I had mod points for you sir!
Next year BMW will be including speech synthesis in their high-end models.
BMW 745i, what is your one purpose in life?
To explode, of course!
My iPAQ runs Windows PocketPC, not Windows CE. No matter...they're very closely related.
because my console has trouble with X applications
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
Once upon a time, in a kingdom not far from here, a king summoned two of his advisors for a test. He showed them both a shiny metal box with two slots in the top, a control knob, and a lever. "What do you think this is?"
One advisor, an engineer, answered first. "It is a toaster," he said. The king asked, "How would you design an embedded computer for it?" The engineer replied, "Using a four-bit microcontroller, I would write a simple program that reads the darkness knob and quantizes its position to one of 16 shades of darkness, from snow white to coal black. The program would use that darkness level as the index to a 16-element table of initial timer values. Then it would turn on the heating elements and start the timer with the initial value selected from the table. At the end of the time delay, it would turn off the heat and pop up the toast. Come back next week, and I'll show you a working prototype."
The second advisor, a computer scientist, immediately recognized the danger of such short-sighted thinking. He said, "Toasters don't just turn bread into toast, they are also used to warm frozen waffles. What you see before you is really a breakfast food cooker. As the subjects of your kingdom become more sophisticated, they will demand more capabilities. They will need a breakfast food cooker that can also cook sausage, fry bacon, and make scrambled eggs. A toaster that only makes toast will soon be obsolete. If we don't look to the future, we will have to completely redesign the toaster in just a few years."
"With this in mind, we can formulate a more intelligent solution to the problem. First, create a class of breakfast foods. Specialize this class into subclasses: grains, pork, and poultry. The specialization process should be repeated with grains divided into toast, muffins, pancakes, and waffles; pork divided into sausage, links, and bacon; and poultry divided into scrambled eggs, hard- boiled eggs, poached eggs, fried eggs, and various omelet classes."
"The ham and cheese omelet class is worth special attention because it must inherit characteristics from the pork, dairy, and poultry classes. Thus, we see that the problem cannot be properly solved without multiple inheritance. At run time, the program must create the proper object and send a message to the object that says, 'Cook yourself.' The semantics of this message depend, of course, on the kind of object, so they have a different meaning to a piece of toast than to scrambled eggs."
"Reviewing the process so far, we see that the analysis phase has revealed that the primary requirement is to cook any kind of breakfast food. In the design phase, we have discovered some derived requirements. Specifically, we need an object-oriented language with multiple inheritance. Of course, users don't want the eggs to get cold while the bacon is frying, so concurrent processing is required, too."
"We must not forget the user interface. The lever that lowers the food lacks versatility, and the darkness knob is confusing. Users won't buy the product unless it has a user-friendly, graphical interface. When the breakfast cooker is plugged in, users should see a cowboy boot on the screen. Users click on it, and the message 'Booting UNIX v.8.3' appears on the screen. (UNIX 8.3 should be out by the time the product gets to the market.) Users can pull down a menu and click on the foods they want to cook."
"Having made the wise decision of specifying the software first in the design phase, all that remains is to pick an adequate hardware platform for the implementation phase. An Intel 80386 with 8MB of memory, a 30MB hard disk, and a VGA monitor should be sufficient. If you select a multitasking, object oriented language that supports multiple inheritance and has a built-in GUI, writing the program will be a snap. (Imagine the difficulty we would have had if we had foolishly allowed a hardware-first design strategy to lock us into a four-bit microcontroller!)."
The king wisely had the computer scientist beheaded, and they all lived happily ever after.
Despite the sentiment of the story, I am seeing a lot of posts here that blame CE. Why is this? CE is just the operating system. It's possible to write bad software under any OS. Blame BMW's engineers, not CE. On the few occasions where my TiVo has frozen or acted screwy, am I allowed to say "it's because they used linux"? Of course not.
Slashdot: come for the pedantry, stay for the condescension.
Where's that old "if cars were like computers" email when we need it? Here we are, finally.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
Then again it could just be another evil Chinese commy conspiracy - uh, yeah right.
There are a thousand forms of subversion, but few can equal the convenience and immediacy of a cream pie -Noel Godin
"...And the toaster is making fun of me!"
--Homer Simpson
The down side to that is that if the single computer fails, all those functions go away. Add to this a few basic facts that we know about computers, computer programmers and corporate IT departments and yes, I'd just as soon keep my computers separate. At least that way I know that if the Radio Control Test Team doesn't test for when you try to set the volume to 11, the resulting crash of the radio control system won't corrupt memory in the transmission, brake or fuel injector control system. The embedded operating system is supposed to prevent cross-process memory corruption *cough*.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
They think we got an agenda, that we've been offered money to promote Linux, that we simply hate MS.
The idea of guy who considers computer science an art -- and loves it -- cannot be easily grasped by the average greedy executive.
ok -- I watched the videos where this guy talks about how he got his latte, then waiting for the
traffic light, he notices that the bmw has lost its mind, and for some reason appears to be popping in and out of drive (it's an automatic).
WHY WOULD HE CONTINUE TO RIDE IN THIS DEATH TRAP?
If a car suddenly pops out of gear (or worse, goes into a lower gear) you will very likely be rammed
from behind as if you suddenly locked up your brakes.
If someone were walking in front of the car when it decides to pop out of neutral and into gear it could easily get away from the driver and run someone down. Or roll you into cross traffic at an intersection.
Also, the narration shows the driver has more car than knowledge about cars. He repeats that the rpm shows it "going over 500 rpm" when it shifts randomly. Obviously, he can't read his tachometer -- because a car IDLES at around a thousand rpm.
It's clear he's got a transmission problem or something that is causing the car to go into neutral while it's in gear and driving down the road.
Since the BMW in obviously brand new, he should take it back and park it in front of the service bay until they give him a check for a refund.
what a piece of garbage car that thing is.
something to laugh about next time I see a BMW 7 series
The new 7 series has lots of 'ghosts in the shell' problems. I knew some of the stuff used windows ce, but this was a bad idea if this tied into anything other than peripheral structures. I've got a 740I, and while I'll complain about bad pixels in the dash, the current system is rock solid. The transmission in the 745I uses wince? I would expect critical systems to be treated as most embedded systems. Here in Minnesota, I count on the onboard computer to keep me out of the ditch.
I also own a pocket pc, and don't trust the thing to do anything more than mp3's and email. Why in god's name would you pick that? I've done a little C++ on the platform, so I know why someone might use it to pound out something with a quick GUI... but for the amount of cash you pay, I know I have expectations. Hearing about this type of thing is not uncommon. Kwality is one of the reasons I don't trust Jaguar... and when you are dealing with a $70K budges, there are plenty of options out there.
Dumb, dumb, dumb... if all they were looking to do is save a couple bucks by using the embedded version of wince.
+++ UGUCAUCGUAUUUCU
Nice one. How long did it take you to make up that crap?
Consider the following (idea inspired by this video):
- You put a copy-protected CD in your car CD player
- Your car suddenly behaves in an unexpected and unpredictable manner directly because of the non-standard effect of said CD
- You, say, get a speeding ticket because the display is now in KM/H instead of MPH.
While you are certainly responsible for the manner in which you operate your vehicle, what liability would the car manufacturer have, or the embedded OS vendor (Microsoft)*, or the company that released the CD?(I'm thinking back to the copy-protected CDs that would lock up Macs hard)
Certainly the excuse "my car's computer crashed" would hold about as much weight in court as "the dog ate my homework." But once fined (having incurred a loss as a direct (?) result of negligance), would the owner have a legal recource against the (car mfg | OS vendor | record company)?
With the continuing march of integration, what liabilities will be incurred when a CD crashes the OS on something (larger | more expensive | more dangerous) than "just" a PC? It sounds to me like a possibility for scaring the RIAA away from doing weird things to CDs... but IANAL, and I think this could use some discussion.
* In this case I'd expect, more likely than not, that Microsoft's contract with BMW absolves them of all liability, thus securely pinning all lawsuits on BMW.
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
Well at least it didn't decide to convert itself into a sauna.
Cheers
Stor
"Yeah well there's a lot of stuff that should be, but isn't"
... claim the problems are due to the installation of bad drivers.
Sigs are bad for your health.
On a more serious note, while this is funny, it shouldn't happen. A computer is one thing. There are lots of different pieces of hardware and other things to have to deal with. So you have to expect that something will go wrong every once in a while with a well written OS and software. But there is no excuse for crashing and random behavoir in a closed system like that in a car. People don't like to reboot their VCRs. If you had to reset TiVos contantly, do you think they'd be so popular? You should be able to use something for months without a single problem. My DirecTV reciever, my VCR, my Linksys Router, my networked HP Laserjet, and other things don't need any of my attention. They work without me having to reset them. Do they have problems? No, but even when something happens, just turning it off and on and that always fixes it. I can do it myself. I shouldn't have to call a repairman to come reboot something. So nothing should ever go wrong, but if it does it should be easy for the user to make it work correctly again. Just turning the car off and back on should fix the problem. There is no excuse for being lazy and having bugs in a closed system. (Closed in that the user doesn't change the hardware on it like they can upgrade a computer)
To end, I think it's fitting that I add this lyric from the song A Meticulous Analysis of History from Pinky and the Brain...
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
Gawd, I would just hate to download the lastest service pack for MY CAR.
the use of Windows CE in the BMW 745i, which apparently occasionally goes nuts.
The "Windows" automagically roll down and the stereo, at volume 11, shouts: "I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore!"
Or maybe the "Windows", including the windshield goes BSOD!.
How about if stepping on the brakes also sounded the horn. Yay. Road rage anyone?
When you roll down the "Windows" the engine stalls.
If you install non-Microsoft gasoline, you cant start your car.
Shooting fish in a barell.
I knew I could boost my karma by trashing Windows ;)
Add complexity to the software and you're going to see unexpected bugs, whether the car/appliance runs WinCE, Linux or no OS at all. Complexity is the problem here, not WinCE.
I watched the transmition video and I didn't hear nor saw his transmition go from 4th to 1st and nearly getting rearended. What was the link you clicked?
... roll up my windows just to restart the car.
Tee hee hoddle ha giggle snort. Linking MS to an unsual device suddenly turns everybody into a comedian.
What would you like to drive into today?
Just jiggle the cable.
"They won't work unless companies invest in planning and training, says VP John Schmuck--companies without automated, repeatable processes can't automate testing. "
heh heh... your name's schmuck....
The problem I heard with the 7 Series, is that the average age of its buyers is 50+. The average buyer is also the type that is very computer illiterate. So the problem is that these customers can't REMEMBER how the car works! BMW practically has to set up a customer support line to give instructions on how to interface with the car!
Why use CE when you can use a reliable system from a reliable company. For example, there's this company called Lineo .. um, wait ....
The best thing about a boolean is even if you are wrong, you are only off by a bit.
If you think about it, HAL is logical extension of this same concept. And look how well that turned out.
The more control you give a machine, the more damage they can do. Yes a human is far more prone to error, but a single human would never have control of an entire ship, planet or universe.
Terminator, The Matrix, Dune...all get a bit closer to reality with each passing day.
-Chris
--an unbreakable toy is useful for breaking other toys--
Was the when the car switched to metric units, But of course, the US Imperial system sucks, and the car was only helping the drivers sanity by useing units that the rest of the world understands.
Episode 40: A Thing About Machines
There's just no good metal anymore.
You do realize that Windows CE is a completely different OS than Windows 9x or Windows NT, right? They share a minimal set of Win32 APIs and a somewhat similar look (which has diverged starting around Windows CE 3.0, associated with PocketPC), and that's it. The core of the OS shares nothing with NT or 9x. Therefore, the reliability of other Windows products cannot reflect upon the reliability of Windows CE (your views on whether or not Microsoft can make reliable software are acceptable, just don't judge Windows CE because you think it's based on other Windows platforms).
What, no "in Russia, Beamers drive you!" jokes? Come on, you guys are slacking!
tbdean
The transmission is not shifting from fourth to first. I floor the accelerator at 60 MPH and it downshifts, followed by a hesitation and decrease before resuming the climb. Prior to the last service, it would downshift with a momentary 500 RPM 'slip' of the transmission followed by the climb. I believe what you see is when I left off the pedal to stay under our normal ~80 limit on 280. Excuse the poor videos, the first I've ever done. My talented PR & Ad firms are waiting with baited breath for permission to do their magic. Follow the Conley (& others) posts over the past year at http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e65/forum.php
An imbedded controller would be several SECONDS faster than WIn CE on iDrive.
I used speed because it was the first example that came to mind. If you watch that video, he pans over the instrument cluster and goes "... it's all in metric." (Or words to that effect.)
If my car suddenly started displaying speeds in metric, I know what my reaction would be -- ignore the speedometer and try to drive with the flow of traffic. (I'd be looking for a safe place to stop, too -- but the first worry is to maintain a similar velocity with the vehicles around me.) The problem is that the 'flow of traffic' may or may not be going the speed limit.
(It's frequently the case here in Washington State. Close to me on I-5 it's a 70 MPH zone. 8 miles further south it drops to 60 MPH... but does anyone slow down? Rarely.)
This fellow has tried to bring this car in for service. He's been told what he'd experiencing is normal, and the "vehicle [is] operating as designed at this time." This has obviously frustrated him to the point where he feels the need to have a video camera mounted in the car to document these events.
How long does he have to put up with this before it becomes negligance? How severe do the problems have to be?
Now that I think more about it -- and considering further the transmission problems he's been having -- I don't think it's too far-fetched to wonder if a computer malfunction could shut down the engine at highway speeds, thus causing an accident. (Perhaps suddenly spitting out the key at a very inopportune time -- vs. immediately, like in the video.)
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
Thanks!
...
[laugh, it's funny]
I am just waiting to see Pierce Brosnan crouched down in the back seat, a bunch of guys shooting at him with machine guns as he careens through a hotel garage, and a German-accented female voice nagging him that he won't get the rental deposit back if he keeps this up.
Ok, I spend ten minutes downloading windows media player for Mac OS X and the peice of crap freezes while installing. Quicktime should release an update to play windows media.
did you know twix is the only candy with a cookie crunch
SCREW FLANDERS
that the Windows CE device in the car is running the trunk, the transmission, etc. then you really are a naive blamestorming bunch. Obviously this car has a littany of problems. Some of them are obviously mechanical (the key popping out), others are obviously electrical (the transmission problems, memory losses), but none of them look like issues with Windows CE.
Wow an Antiloop reference.
Any idea where that sample comes from?
This isn't about Windows being a bad OS.
It's about lousy programming, if you write bad code for Linux it still won't work.
Linux isn't a miracle cure for cancer either.
A computer only does what you tell it to do, if you don't tell it what to do correctly you should not be surprised if it doesn't do what you wan't it to.
from the article:
"The auto industry is highly regulated, and these are not mission-critical systems, But companies like Microsoft can't do to the auto industry what they did to the PC industry. You can't play Russian Roulette every time you stick the key into the ignition."
True, I would put my life on the scales just to drive a car with cool (mostly useless) gadgets.
That automatically trunk-opening-bit is way over the top.
This car has amongst many others had the problem of suddenly braking without turning on the brakelights. This car could kill people. But hey, sleep tight Bill G. You obviously don't seem to care.
My oldest computer manual is still useful. Richard Stallman's GNU Emacs Manual, Sixth Edition, Version 18, March 1987 is still useful. Stuff about Excell 4 and what are not.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Now, we do have cars that are the automakers' dream -- they really do know when the warranty has expired, and it is surely gonna cost us.
a) "Chitty-Chitty-Bang-Bang"
or
b) "Christine"
=^..^= all your rodent are belong to us
I was thinking, if you need a computer or embedded windows OS to open your trunk, then maybe, just maybe you should consider giving up driving. I own a 4WD truck that was manufactured in 1977. Sure, I have to actually get out of the vehicle to lock in the hubs (if I forgot), and *gasp* I actually don't have a remote for my stereo, but instead have "knobs". And, prepare yourself, I actually have a crank for the windows.
I use my truck in off-road as well as not-off-road work. (Mineral exploration). It has been submerged completely (once in mud) several times, frozen for most of 4 years, attacked by gnawing ground squirrels, and shot at numerous times (but only hit once). I could go to the dealer and pay cash for a new one, but I won't. I reject consumerism for the sake of consumerism. I feel no need to impress anyone, do not require peer validation, and don't give a rusty rats ass what anyone else thinks about me.
But, there is also the practicle side: I've never had to reboot the truck. Despite being submerged, its primary systems are intact and ruggedly dependable. It doesn't matter if it gets scratched or dented, because its made of metal (ask your parents what that is), and I can drive from here to Tierra Del Fuego and know I can find parts, cheaply, and do the work myself. And yet, in other areas I apply the latest scientific advances.
Man Gets 70mpg in Homemade Car-Made from a Mainframe Computer
The solution- Emilio Estevez with a rocket launcher.
Y'know, from Maximum Overdrive? Also with cars and appliances come to life? Nevermind...
While that may be a joke, the new Saab 9-3 (which everyone should look at...especially when it comes out in Arc/Vector versions, byootiful car) also depends heavily on computers (though thankfully it doesn't have the nasty iDrive interface.)
The interesting thing is that if these vehicles (new 9-3) lose the computer input, the car will just shut off. There is a 45 pin connector to the central computer that somtimes gets a little loose, and if the computer is lost, the car turns off. Other very random sounding error messages have been popping up (many of them long and unwieldly--"bi xenon headlamp leveling failure" even if the levellers are working perfectly fine.) So, either you turn off car, or take to the dealer, who gets periodic software updates. So yeah, software updates to exist..and SP1 for the 2003 9-3 has already been released. No doubt it has been released for the 745i as well.
I develop for an embedded software company in a wide variety of platforms that range from assembly to c to java to even VB and I had no idea that CE has this amazing ability to open car doors like this out of the box. I guess like 89.74% of the /. posters they can't spearate between the OS and notepad. When it comes to MS products that is. I guess the IQ if these morons must equal their shoe size.
And you thought that old joke - you know, "if cars were like computers, they'd cost $50, drive 500mph and get 500mpg, and randomly explode, killing everyone inside" - was just an old joke.
Except for the cost, and speed, and mileage. What a rip.
Quoth the article:
Consider BMW and its luxury 745i sedan. ... the car contains around 70 microprocessors. Its most striking feature, iDrive, is what Car and Driver magazine classifies as a "miracle knob." This single element of the dashboard is designed, through a computerized console, to replace more than 200 buttons that control everything from the position of seats to aspects of the navigation of the car itself to climate, communications and entertainment systems.
So it's not really a knob? I can just imagine a single knob that set's my seat position, changes my radio station, opens my trunk and changes my gears. It would be a miracle if the only the silly computers crashed.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
But do we really need to hear this joke once in every thread?
Okay, Windows CE isn't the best thing for automobile control systems.
But what about alternatives? What OS does DaimlerChrysler use for their COMMAND system used on high-end S-class models and the new Maybach limousine? And what about the systems used by Lexus and Infiniti? On the lower end scale, what about the electronic computer system used by Toyota on the Prius? Are they Linux-based, used a customized version of a commercial UNIX variant, or some custom operating system?
When Appliances Revolt... The book: Codgerspace by Alan Dean Foster
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
At least the BMW doesn't have lasers, or rockets. Imagine what would happen if your James Bond BMW went haywire and killed John Cleese. Then that would open the possibility for someone like Carrot-top to to get the job, and no one wants to see that.
many companies are exploring the potential of software to improve products by making them more durable. Software replaces knobs that break and mechanical parts that wear out, and it allows customers to fix and add features without buying a new machine. Software updates can be delivered to customers over the Web.
Does this strike anyone else as very cynical way of introducing the new "planned obsolescense"? We've already seen it in the computer world, you have to buy another one because the "software driver" is no longer "supported." There's a fridge in my grandparent's house that's fourty years old and it works great. Their oven is fifty years old. The newest appience they owned was a twenty year old microwave oven. All of it was worked by simple, but sturdy knobs and levers. I don't see many electronic components built with that kind of life expectancy. Far from expecting a software update for my fridge, I'm expecting someone to tell me that I'll have to buy a new one because they don't support that model anymore.
Free software could help, but only if it's used up front and consistently by the manufacturer. OEMs that work that way already don't have reliability problems anyway and will really use this as a means of improving their appliances. They will most likely take free software and use it to reduce their development and upkeep costs, use the same processor in all of their units and be able to make eveything work in a well mannered and published way. Those that don't work this way will purchase the cheapest processor available and waste money developing everything all over again, perhaps outsourcing the works, so that the people who really know what makes the device work don't write the software.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Problem: Dashboard reverts to metric for no apparent reason
Solution: Learn metric.
?
The Mongrel Dogs Who Teach
According to this, bmw says their hardware runs better WITHOUT windows.
Isn't Windows CE intended to be used on pocket devices, such as IPAQ's and stuff? Wouldn't a car be considerably larger than that?
:-)
So maybe all these cool new features would work fine on a Matchbox car
(And I thought the name was now PocketPC, or am I confusing this with something else?)
If you listen closely to the end of the movie clip Metric Radio Options you can hear the man refer to a "double start button reset." Specifically, the man says something like "Oh, that time I didn't have to use the Double Start Button Reset."
This sounds vaguely like a Ctrl-Alt-Delete style reset. Or perhaps the "Apple-P" option to flash the P-RAM on those old Macs (don't know if that's really relevant, or even correct). The very fact that the man knows about this and refers to it in an offhand manner suggests he's had to "reset" his car before, and having mechanics (or BMW) tell him his car is behaving "normally" (the phone doesn't work! that's normal...) probably isn't helping either. A well designed system should almost never have to be reset IMO.
I find that this really makes the software (or whatever) that runs in this BMW seem really shoddy. Some of these problems could be considered "quirks," but others can be considered outright bugs (see the Transmission clip, as one example). This car is obviously very expensive, and I have heard that BMWs are generally well designed cars, but this just smacks of poor QC and a lack of testing; something that BMW should take seriously IMO, given what they charge for one of their automobiles.
Who knows? Is his car a lemon? Maybe BMW outsourced the development of this to another company? Clueless management? Incompentent programmers? Overly complex design? Windows CE's fault? (I'm inclined to believe that it's not CE's fault, but rather the program it's running).
I would have like to see some K2000 outakes of this genre.
well one thing's for sure -- the Onkyo NAS-2.3 won't be doing this. It has Linux, so we won't have to worry about the eject button going on a rampage.
Just another disadvantage of embedded OS's.
So, why is CE the worst choice? This is not trolling, I really want to know. I've used several RTOS's, including CE, and can't think of anything that would necessarily impair it vs. the others you mentioned.
No sig, sorry.
Even if that is true, imagine how much energy, and other resources are saved by not having to replace it. It seems to use the same kind of compressors as new units, except it can be smaller thanks to it's use of older and now banned freon.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
...then rates will sure as hell be higher.
And if they don't fix the safety problems, there'll be a LOT of claims. Expensive ones, too, if they're starting on BMWs.
Windows? controlling my car!? That's about enough to keep me from purchasing the vehicle.
As scary as it is, that the car is running windowsCE.
It could be worse, imagine having clippy as a back
seat driver.
You paid HOW MUCH for that Windows CE IT crash piece of car?
Wow, a sucker IS born at least for that sale. Can we all say it together now, "S T U P I D". It ranks right up there with the fact that Bill G got money for selling this and that Windows made it to #1.
Being #1 (obviously) doens't make it "right". Any hard core computer geek rather _instinctively_ heads for one Unix or the other. Hell, all major computer companies are getting behind one of the Unix's or the other.
And then you have Windows. Crashing BMW's no less. Too fuckin' funny. I am SSOOOOO glad that I bought that Subaru. And my Mac. Reformatting Windows to Linux was about as much fun as watching those videos.
But then again, I'm the one that pays attention at ATM's and see _any_ indication of Microsoft figure I'm better off to just walk away. WITH MY MONEY. Suckers...
You can get the entire, world class QNX operating system for free. www.qnx.com - it is a true RTOS, and while linux is coming along, I'm not quite willing to bet my car on it yet. The thought I am willing to bet my safety on my software skills might be a case of hubris, though. hahaha. Anyhow, I play around with engine controls and the like, and it's a good OS.
..don't panic
Raise of hands BMW owners...who has a Mac at home?
Dumb asses.
Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
BMW is on a roll, but unfortunately they also seem to be on a design hubris trip, judging by the 745i movies and my friend's ongoing BMW Z4 experience.
I have a friend fighting with BMW to return his manual top Z4 for the power top version due to similar design oversights. Would you believe the Z4 manual top can leak and splash water into the interior when driven in the rain? BMW's "official" response: it's ok since that's the way the manual top was designed. (However, the power top design exhibits no such design flaw.) Even the BMW techs agree that the top is misdesigned, but BMW refuses to take responsibility for their design flaw and refuses to upgrade the car at the $900 power top cost to the equivalent power top version. Instead, BMW wants to make another $2700 on the new car due to their design mistake!
BMW's new design hubris and customer neglect has led it to deny its design miscues (745i rear end) and critical design flaws (Z4 manual top, and 745i iDrive and electronics), and some of BMW's most loyal customers are the victims.
Instead of providing an upgrade path at cost ($900), BMW wants my friend to trade in his new Z4 as a used car (even though he reported the problem two days after taking delivery of the car). This difference of resolution is crucially expensive since BMW wants another $2700 from my friend to address their manual top critical design flaw. BMW wants to make money off my friend twice for their design failure, and their "offer" is really just an offer for him to pay the BMW premium twice for a $900 resolution to address the leaky Z4 top. The story goes on quite a bit further, but that's the crux.
There are two basic problems I see with this situation other than the following obvious issues: shipping an improperly designed and inadequately tested manual top, nonsensical denials (even in the face of their own service techs and loyal customer(s)), and unconscionably poor customer service by BMW. The two subtle issues I see are:
1. BMW charges a premium for quality design and attention to detail. A leaky roof is an undeniably major oversight and design flaw, and telling a customer it's supposed to leak and splash into the cabin just doesn't cut it. My miata roadster never leaked into the cabin in ten years of ownership. Why should a BMW roadster at twice the price?
BMW has been hugely successful recently, but its success seems to be going to its head. The buggy, ugly 745i is the epitome of Bangle design and BMW hubris. The lowly (relative to 745i) soft top indicates that even engineering (not just aesthetics) are subject to BMW design hubris.
2. The Z4 is expensive even for a BMW at $32+k starting (compare: Nissan 350Z coupe at $25k starting with app. 100 more horsepower!). The manual top chops $900 off the Z4 price. However, through all my friend's troubles, BMW could not find another Z4 with a manual top in the region. IOW, BMW appears not to be shipping manual top Z4's.
Considering the huge discrepancy between the success of the Z4 as a design whole, and the utter engineering/consumer failure of the manual top design, I have a suspicion. BMW knows the manual top is a design failure and purposely has not voluntarily shipped any to dealers (unless spec'ed by customer). They ship power tops by default and suggest dealers only order power tops (hence no other manual tops to inspect in region). BMW apparently only intends to sell power top Z4s (and for good reason) since they already *know* the manual top is deficient. BMW intends (and certainly should) only sell Z4 power tops.
But why offer the soft top if it's a. deficiently designed, b. largely untested, c. improperly supported in the field, and d. subject to severe customer dissatisfaction? I suspect the Z4 manual top exists solely to lop $900 off the starting price for the Z4. I also suspect that BMW marketing told engineering at the last minute to create a manual top version --- not because they wanted a well designed manual top --- but because BMW marketing wanted a way to lop off another $900 off the starting price of their already expensive roadster in view of its less expensive competition (e.g., Nissan 350Z).
Voila, the Z4 manual top reject design exists solely for marketing reasons --- never mind the inadequate engineering design, testing, and execution --- and the potentially open-ended damage to BMW's design and engineering reputation. Engineering probably complained bitterly at marketing's unsavory request, but marketing apparently prevailed much to my friend's customer dissatisfaction.
I guess at this point, it's largely immaterial why BMW shipped such a defective manual top (or such buggy 745i software). Mistakes can occasionally happen. What matters is how BMW responds to customer dissatisfaction at these defects and design failures.
Unortunately, with BMW America's new hubris, they explain away the leaky, splashy manual top design as (literally) 'that's how it was designed' implying it therefore works. Perhaps BMW Germany (or the BMW America executive team?) need to step in and stop the customer dissatisfaction hemorrhaging.
Neither my friend nor I disagree the manual top was designed by BMW (surprise, surprise), we just wonder what the BMW engineeers, executives, and 'customer service' staff were smoking when they chose to ship the design. Yes, that's the way it was designed, and that's exactly why BMW should take responsibility for the design flaw(s). BMW needs to acknowledge the flaw(s) and fix or replace them to customer satisfaction. (Duh.)
So, BMW's latest hubris is not limited to Microsoft Windows CE based 745i's, nor Bangle'd 745i sedan rear ends. It also extends to their own manual soft top design on their brand new Z4. BMW, BMW America, and BMW dealerships need to reassess their priorities: is internal engineering/marketing the ultimate authority at any expense (including customer satisfaction), or is it possible tech's and customers with first hand experience could know better?
IOW, is hubris king, or is customer satisfaction still a priority at BMW Germany, BMW USA, or BMW dealerships? As a BMW owner and loyalist, I hope BMW plugs its hubris leak right quick, and bails its customers out of its leaky, flawed design mistakes.
P.s., just to level the Z4 comments slightly, I shall say that other than the fatal leaky manual top, the Z4 is a beautifully designed and delightful car to drive and enjoy. Even I delight at and in it, and I am hardly a Bangle fan. The Z4 "flame" design is a delight; the Z4 attention to detail is excellent excepting the one flaw. My friend has several used BMW's already, and the Z4 (with a working power top) is exactly what he wants and is his first ever new BMW (and new car!). It's just a shame that BMW is denying him the car of his dreams to avoid addressing its manual top design mistake.
I hope BMW wakes up without sacrificing its most loyal customers (including my friend) and doing too much unnecessary self-inflicted damage. BMW should honor their good design reputation by addressing their flawed design(s) immediately, without reservation, and to the full satisfaction of their customers. Here's to BMW pulling out of its design hubris and fulfilling its premium customer service obligations.
$time = $speed * $distance
if ($time > $emergency_trehold){
Dude, $time is increasing with distance, so a larger distance makes it more likely to exceed the threshold, with infinite distance exceeding any threshold. Clearly this is erroneous.
BZZZT! Thanks for playing.
"that's not encryption - it's a new perl script that I'm working on..." - from some Matrix parody
after all these years of the if microsoft built a car jokes, we can finally clean up the humor code that runs it . . . . .
"You never want a serious crisis to go to waste." - Rahm Emanuel
automatic trunks and the like why do we need hands? lucky for us we can stay the same with genetics or we'd evolve into blobs... oh wait we already have!
I know you are psychotic, but please make an effort.
I'm a regular reader of Car and Driver, which I consider to be the most accurate and entertaining magazine of the genre. They give very frank analyses of vehicles and appear to not be intimidated by their advertisers in the slightest.
BaseLine states, "Its most striking feature, iDrive, is what Car and Driver magazine classifies as a 'miracle knob.'" They are technically correct that C/D did call it a "miracle knob", but how about a little context from the C/D article:
"Then again, the 745i may also go down as a lunatic attempt to replace intuitive controls with overwrought silicon, an electric paper clip on a lease plan. One of our senior editors needed 10 minutes just to figure out how to start it (insert the key, step on the brake, then push the start button), five minutes to drop it into gear (pull the electronic column shifter forward, then up for reverse or down for drive), and then two weaving miles to decode the arcane seat controls (select which quadrant of the seat you wish to adjust from one of four buttons located near your inboard thigh, then maneuver the adjacent joystick until posterior bliss is achieved)--all of which made him so tardy to pick up his kid that he rushed, only to get bagged by a radar boy scout within sight of the school.
In BMW's defense, we'll note here that the 745i and its various ergonomic quirks, especially the little porkpie hat on the iDrive miracle knob that controls the dash-top computer console, are designed with the noblest of intentions."
IMHO, this is journalism of the lowest form. They act as though C/D praised the device, when in fact they gave it a scathing review.
What has *science* done?!? -- Dr. Weird (ATHF)
I've got a full mirror of all the videos here: WHEEEEE
Why do they call it windows . Windows CE i can understand since it has the look and feel of windows but if the OS just does things in the back and there are no windows, whay call it windows?
Yes, i know it had brand recognition, but it is still stupid.
BTW i like in CE i have a pocket pc i have used since 1999 and it hasnt crashed once (compaq aero) . Who ever pouts linux on their pda just for the sake of having nad not doing PDA function really should rethink why they have one.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
It's awfully fun reading desktop programmers commenting on an article in a project management magazine.
Here's a few facts about your new-model car. The BMW is extreme with 70 electronic modules but the typical 2003 vehicle has 20 or 30 microprocessor-controlled modules, and the number is rising every year. These range from a door-switch module with 8K of code, through an engine controller with 256K/32K of ROM/RAM, to a navigation system at 8M/8M. Very few of these modules have a manufacturing cost above $100.
The OS in automotive controllers varies from a simple event loop at the low end through OSEK-compliant kernels in the midrange to QNX and its friends in the most complicated systems. If there's Linux in a controller, it will be as well-hidden as the Linux in Tivo. Engine and transmission controllers are designed for hard real-time operation and emphatically do not use anything remotely resembling a desktop or palmtop OS.
Software development starts with the premise that once it's built, you can't change the it, ever. This has enormous consequences for the way automotive code gets made. Most companies spec the hell out of these products, use a strict waterfall development process, are afraid to venture beyond the C language, and test endlessly. They are scared of agile methodologies and even of RUP. Productivity is pretty low, but on the other hand, the products are reliable.
Now, both the article and /. responses are full of misconceptions. There's not really much question about whether an OS vendor shares its source code. The real concern is reliability. There's not much question about who develops embedded software. Detroit is lousy with contractors. One billboard I see on my commute shows a toy car with the caption "about the only vehicle that doesn't run on our software. -- EDS" The GM guy's comment about 10 year old software has the obvious answer: his teenager's 1993 Chevy.
Win CE gets no respect from embedded software developers for several reasons. Chief among them are poor responsiveness, poor stability and code bloat. Typical comment, from an SAE conference presenter: "If you put an embedded system into a car, you still have a car. If you put a PC into a car, you have a PC with wheels."
Rather than rant any further, let me suggest reading any of the books on Jean Labrosse's site, EE Times and Embedded Systems Programming. And have fun! Embedded is where you can see software affect the real world.
He's the man we all want to be!
then could we start charging car thieves with violation o f the DMCA for bypassing the car's security mechanisms?
...since you would have so many pricks in one place.
They say the first thing to go is your penis. Well, it's either that or your brain. I forget which...
this may be slightly OT, but i tseems to me that the last time i heard of windows systems running amok in system critical machines like an automobile,.. it was in the cumpter banks of the onboard systems in the navy. does anyone know if the navy still uses windows for basic control systems in thier ships?
- yummy rootbeer.
You, say, get a speeding ticket because the display is now in KM/H instead of MPH.
Uh, that won't happen no matter what. There are roughly 1.6 miles in kilometre and, ergo, 1.6-1 kilometres in a mile. OTOH, you'd be very likely to get one if the display switched from km/h to mph.:)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
I don't know what planet you're from, but my washer washes clothes, and very occasionally, shoes.
paintball
No, no they don't.
... jumping in the getaway car, turning it on, and waiting for it to boot ... and waiting ...
Infuriate left and right
Of course "over 700 (sic) buttons to replace the iDrive controls" is quickly discreditted as they (BMW) used only ONE CONTROL to replace these "over 700 (sic) buttons." Thus, through induction you can show that if you can use one, you can use two buttons, three, four, up through 699 buttons.
USA-Democracy is 270 million YESes and NOes a day, not one every four years.
I hate WinCE as much as the next guy, but atleast be intelligent about your crazy scenarios. There are about 1.6 km in each mile (or so, a KM is SMALLER than a mile, so 60 KPH is LESS than 60 MPH). You will *NEVER* get a speeding ticket going MPH-->KPH. Other way around, yeah, you're in shit, but not as you describe it.
I have an early Sony MP3-deck for my car. For some reason, when it reaches the end of the MP3's on the disk, it kicks into the data area and starts playing noise. The deck is only supposed to play audio tracks, or files ending in .MP3. Since the last actual song was relatively quiet (volume up) the first time it blasted me I just above did swerve and cause an accident.
Bugs in software and hardware alike can definately be fatal, even if the device is not directly linked to the vehicle driving. Having an automatic seat suddenly slide you away from the wheel/pedals would probably be worse... and there are plenty of other scenarios.
Even if it were linux... I wouldn't necessarily want an embedded OS. Perhaps for something that monitored my car (but unable to change anything)... and for a stereo etc that could definately be known as "off" when it's off... but it still seems like not such a great idea.
Finally an answer for #2.
1) Collect Underpants.
2) Clean dookie from underpants of driver after 745i shifts into reverse on freeway.
3) Profit!
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
Psycho Headlights
I don't know who's car it was, but my friend and I filmed it (however poorly) outside my old college dorm. This car's pretty old, so I would guess it's more likely a mechanical glitch than a software one, but maybe someone out there's seen this type of thing before and knows what causes it?
NEVER use Windows to control anything that can kill you...
It's Christmas everyday with BitTorrent.
Oh, wait, now they are!
"The obvious mathematical breakthrough would be development of an easy way to factor large prime numbers." Bill Gates,
What a bunch of crap. How do you know that these problems are related to the OS? In all likelyhood, these problems are caused by shoddy programming of the application which runs on top of it.
Which answers half of the pun. Other shills have filled out the other half blaming people who don't know how to use things.
Nice Work Trolls! Keep it up, and help your manager keep her top down, we all need a lift like that. Thumbs, and other members, up!
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
In the appropriate context (usually military related) it is quite inspring. I don't listen to it on my car CD, but there was a Scottish band at a war-graves ceremony I went to last Memorial Day, and it brought tears to your eyes.
My grandfather fought in the First World War, in some of the worst of the blood and muck (Passchendaele). The way he told it, his regiment's trench was next to a Scots Highlander regiment. The Scottish lads fought for the right to be first over the top, in full kilt, skirling the pipes. Then they would march forward until they either overran the Germans' trench, or were killed. Them Scots are tough customers.
According to him the sound of the pipes scared the scheiss out of old Fritz. Sure gives me shivers when I hear it with a 21 gun salute and a jet flyover.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
Anyway... ever think that this could be the result of shitty programmers and not the OS's fault?
Yeah, I had that thought when you said it. I imagine you mean non M$ programers when you try to blame them. The thought lasted about a quarter second as memories of using M$ junk floated passed my mind. Computers that seem flakey are generally cured by removing M$ software.
you also claim, the functionality to do various things in an automobile are NOT built into Windows last time I checked...
That's good because no one here has claimed anything M$ has the functionality to do anything related to vehicles or anything else that could actually hurt people when it flakes out.
Bruce Perens and I don't have much in common, but neither of us like you. In fact you have four or five foes for each letter of the alphabet. So it looks like I share that with many others.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
The article says that Car and Driver refer to the BMW 745i's knob as a "miracle knob". C&D actually has a fantastic article on iDrive, which Frank Marcus referred to as "The Boss" and even compared to Windows (click the link for the entire article, it is much longer):
As for The Boss, it's really a mouse by another name. And you'd better make friends with it because it's the go-to knob for most of your entertainment, navigation, and "settings" needs (clock, trip computer, adjustable shocks, etc.). It has substantial say over HVAC, the phone, and numerous other options as well.
Let's say you want to tune in Rush Limbaugh. (Caution: The voice in the dash has no privacy policy, and I wouldn't trust it to keep any confidences.) Okay, you can toggle The Boss in eight different directions: N, NE, E, SE, S, SW, W, and NW. For the entertainment screen, go south. After three or four seconds, you'll get a menu. Rotate The Boss as you watch the orange square move around the screen. When it surrounds AM, press The Boss.
If the station is preset, rotate to SCAN and press. Otherwise, rotate to MEMORY and press. Wait for a new screen. Rotate to M AM and press. Now rotate again to MANUAL and press. This activates the frequency display. Now you're all the way up to what would have been your starting point if you were driving, say, a 1949 Ford with those needlessly complex knobs.
If, during the above, your interfacing had been momentarily distracted by your driving, i.e., the road ahead, the frequency display probably timed out (it stays live for eight seconds). Naturally, you've already started rotating for the station, which has taken you away from MANUAL. So take your eyes off the road, find it again, and press. Now rotate to tune.
If we applied such labor-saving innovation to all our daily jobs, by supper time we'd almost earn enough for breakfast.
The dash still has knobs for temp and fan, and there's a rocker on the wheel for radio volume. How did these complexities escape the tyranny of the control center? In an odd quirk of logic, the CD-player buttons also do part-time on the radio.
I'm reminded of Windows, which always gives two or three ways of doing everything. This BMW has at least three ways of setting radio volume and, counting CD buttons, several station-tuning methods. That sure sounds like "unnecessary complexity" to me. The carrot for learning Windows? You can talk to most computers. Do motorists really want to learn a special language so they can talk to a BMW? We'll see.
Yes, Germany is an industrial powerhouse, and the likes of BMW and Mercedes are world renowned for their quality of build and mechanical reliability. However, in my experience Germany has never been outstanding in the field of electronics (nor has much from anywhere else in Europe either). If BMW engineered this IDrive thing in Germany I'm not surprised it came out so quirky.
I've driven a few cars of European origin (or those that use Euopean components) and have found that the electrical/electronic systems in all cases were the weak points. It doesn't matter if the components--from the hall-effect sensors, MAPs, up to the ECM unit--has Bosch (Gremany) or Renix (France) or whatever, they have been a source of aggravation.
It seemed there were some exceptions. I owned a Renault awhile back that had a nifty little travel computer that did gas mileage, average speed, trip odometer, etc (sourced by Jager if I remember right) that always worked and was remarkably accurate--even when the car was over 10 years old. The same car was also equiped with a nice Blaupunkt radio. When I had to get behind the dash to fix other problems I had to pull out both componenets. Much to my dismay, both the Jager travel computer and the Blaupunkt radio were "made in Japan". Hmm...so much for the exceptions. On the other hand, things that DID go wrong (intermittent wipers, turn signal/horn/everything stalk Renalt was infamous for, intrument cluster illumination) all involved parts that were made in Germany or made in France.
I'd say as far as electrical and electronic engineering goes in may cases, Germany raks marginally better than France (which ranks marginally better than Britain). If you doubt me then look closely at a lot of the high-quality "german" electonic components (automotive or not)--and don't be surprised if the whole thing wasn't made in asia, or at least was made from mostly asian parts.
If it's "pure german" electronics, expect it to be overbuilt or overengineered and somewhat "rube-goldberg" in terms of design (it seems German electronics designers intinctively want to fly from Berlin to Paris by way of Beijing).
I'm sure eventually such quirks (like a crazy radio or brakes going on without brakelights and so on) will kill someone, and a lawsuit will be inevitable (perhaps sooner, especially if enough people in the Litigous States of America get pissed off--or hurt).
I put these movies on gnutella; you should be able to find them by searching for "BMW" "embedded winCE" or something like that. =)
I was at Fry's Electronics the other day, and they had one of those smart fridges. I wasn't interested in it, until I realized there was infamous BSOD. I had to tell the guy at front they needed to reboot their fridge.
What's this? Windows has innovated a way to give rich people something to complain about AND showoff their luxury items all at the same time? Where do I sign?
____
ATS11=0 the secret to beating everyone else to a 1 line board.
Eaghh.. Even the guy who wrote the article got it wrong. If you're going to write a story about BMW's, get your facts straight. Why should I even consider what he is saying if he can't even get the simple stuff out of the way...
Since BMW's have been known the world over for being incredibly reliable for the past two decades and then some, and then they finally introduce a WINDOWS based OS to control their systems, and the reliability goes out the window.. Like not by a little bit, but the WHOLE FREAKIN CAR DOESNT WORK AT ALL .. Who are you more likely to believe is at fault? Incredible German engineers, or Microsoft? I don't care what fancy schmancy wordplay you want to try and say, it's Microsoft who is to blame, and they need to be dealt with. BMW honestly needs to drop Microsoft OS from their future cars, possible sue Microsoft for these current problems, and get something homebrewed. They're smart, they should have created their own OS to begin with.
And Microsoft is the exact opposite? Suddenly one of the worlds most reliable cars goes belly up mysteriously the same model they introduce Microsofts CE OS .. I'm sorry if you've forgotten your thinking cap today, but i'll let you off this time..
Is it possible that this is a problem with just this one car. And it happens to be the one guy who has enough time to videotape it and post it to the internet. Even he himself asks in the videos if anyone else has had these problems, and nobody in the Slashdot community seems to have posted anything about thier problems either. Once in a while, I would assume there is a chance that you get a bad piece of hardware, and maybe that's what he got.
In some ATC centres, they print the strips on a computer, but they still use the paper clipped to the plastic thingys.
I remember reading this in a .sig once:
The two biggest mistakes of our time are
- to assume that "new" equals good" and
- to assume that "newer" means "better".
Think about it!
-- Language is a virus from outer space.
Having an embedded OS installed in your BMW gives a new meaning to the sentence "I have a FAST computer".
Looking for a safe place to stop? Wow, you must have some omnipresent cops over there in the US. I rarely look at my speedometer, and only got 3 tickets in 6 years, two of which in the same village (yes, that's the rare place where I now do look at my speedometer...).
And I always thought, BMWs would run better without windows ? BMW ad
To error is human, to forgive, beyond the scope of the OS.
Well, as long as the engines aren't randomly dropping out of the cars, they're still up on Alpha Romeo, though.
We are using CE4.1 for ARMVI and that is exactly the behaviour or GetWindowLong. It just crashes.
I still remember the first time the "check engine" light came on in a car I was driving. I was on an interstate highway in South Carolina, coming up on an exit. This amber light comes on, so I took the exit and shut off the engine as soon as I was safely out of the way.
I didn't know what was wrong, so I treated it with the same caution I would have were it the oil pressure light.
(Turns out it was only an indication of emissions equipment malfunctioning -- in this case, the oxygen sensor was going.)
If my car suddenly went metric on me, I'd be looking for a safe place to stop not out of worry over a ticket, but because I want to know WTF is going on with my (in this case) costs-almost-as-much-as-a-house BMW. I mean, hell, if VW can make a car that doesn't get schizophrenic on me, why can't BMW??
Last thing:
Cops in South Carolina? Holy hell, they've got WAY too much time on their hands. I used to count speed traps out of boredom, and more than once I'd come home from a 68 mile trip having counted over a dozen.
"...America's great minds of today, teaching America's great minds of tomorrow. Poor bastards." -- A Beautiful Min
Realtime systems regularly have a degree of complexity to them. For example, your washing machine now has a single microcontroller running the drum, the water inlets, the front panel and soap tray / door latch, etc. This is simple enough to control with a cheap PIC.
However, an engine or an office climate control device or a telecoms switch has a lot more variables to work with, and it has to work with them in realtime. A PIC will not do. So you regularly find realtime systems with embedded CPUs (like the CPU32 -- the embeddable MC68000) which are cut-down versions of microprocessors previously used in desktop computers, often with onboard I/O controllers and RAM.
In order to control all your realtime subsystems, are you going to use a fast, hot running, power guzzling CPU running code that continually polls these devices? Or, are you going to use a slower CPU running event-driven code? If you're running event-driven code, how are you going to maintain realtime control over each subsystem?
The answer is to use prioritised threads. This is all an embedded OS really is. A simple task scheduler, a memory allocator, mutexes and timers. This is all there is to an embedded OS. If you're looking for luxury, you usually find an RS232 or Ethernet driver and in extreme luxury you get a mini TCP/IP stack -- open up your ADSL router and see what it's running. Mine's running VXworks. Windows CE or PalmOS are not "embedded OSes", They're mini desktop OSs for mini desktop devices. You've obviously never seen what an engine or a telecoms switch is running. They run things like WindRiver's Tornado or Greenhills' ThreadX. They don't run pretty things with graphics and input device support.
Does my bum look big in this?
Looks like slashdot got his account suspended...
Your account is suspended, please contact support.
Sorry, but I do not trust a TransAM worth a darn. Why? Once when I was in San Diego I rented a high end Camero and drove into the desert. I drove fast (so fast) that my partner actually became nervous. I loved it because it was mountain roads, with plenty of curves. Then one curve I almost ran into a cliff. I managed to gain control just in the knick in time.
I was puzzled as to what happened. So I looked at the brakes because they were not working anymore. The problem was that because of my driving my brakes overheated and lost traction due to the heat.
At that point I just thought, Crap car.... Plenty of horsepower in a snail carriage.
You see I live in Europe and drive a sports car at about 155 MPH (German Autobahn). And Cameros and TransAm's are NOT built for those types of speed. Corvette, yes, Viper OH YEAH BABY yes... Actually you have not seen horsepower until you see a Viper take off on the Autobahn. Your jaw just drops. But that is it for North American performance cars.
Now about beating a Porsche? I can beat Porsche's as well. It depends on the model. A Boxer no problem. A Porsche S2? NOT A CHANCE.... Also come to the Nuernberg Ring and then we will talk. Because the boys and girls that race on the Nuernberg ring REALLY race and drive fast....
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
you are a stupid moron of course everyone knows Linux is better what do you think you dum asshole. anything with micro$oft crashes all the time internet exploder crashed three times while i was typing this.
Your account is suspended, please contact support.
== Jez ==
Do you miss Firefox? Try Pale Moon.
Yes, I agree... OSes are only really useful when the intended use of a device is an abstract or changing concept.
"yeah, I've got an ok dishwasher now, but when I download a couple of things from the internet, I'll be able to listen to mp3s with it and it will keep track of all my appointments."
-------
Incite and flee.
Are you really serious when you say they'd charge you $10k to replace the "6 computers" in your car???
YES. I recently replaced a computer in a Peterbuilt 379 semi and it was $3400.
Actually, you can do the gear-shifting-the-wireless-way NOW.
For example, the so-called "gear-box", - the one the drivers use, to shift gears, - of newer models of Toyota, are actually nothing more than oversize joy-stick.
If you can rig the thing - that is, take out the "gear-box", - and then hook up the wires underneath to some Wi-Fi thingies, you can actually shift gears by remote control !
In the future, assassination will not be done by bullets or poison arrows or bombs. Rather, it can be done by WI-FI controlled gear-shift, which, when done correctly, can actually make a car FLY out of control.
Imagine a car going 100MPH or faster on the autobahn, on fifth gear, and then suddenly the gear shifts to reverse.
If that car doesn't fly, it at least FLIPS.
Think of the passenger(s) inside the car.
It's a perfect way to assassinate someone without even a smoking gun.
Think about that.
Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
So you have one to drive while the other is in the shop!
Even if it were linux... I wouldn't necessarily want an embedded OS.
I'm simplify it even more -- I want code in a car to be a simple and minimal as possible. Reliability decreases as complexity increases when humans are involved -- that's just the way things are. Frankly, I don't really care about a "flashy GUI" on the dash, and I do care very much about having absolutely perfect reliability, regardless of whether the GM engineers consider the radio or seat controls "mission critical" or not.
Hardware engineers have a better testing culture than software engineers.
May we never see th
How many programmers in circulation can program an 8052 microcontroller? How many can program Windows?
This is the advantage that Microsoft gets in the embedded market. The system may be overkill for most of these applications, but with hordes of developers who have experience with the platform, you can find people to do the work for much cheaper.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
As a bagpiper myself I know that 90% of my music is bagpipe music and I tend to listen to it just about everwhere.
I'd be far more worried if the guy was trying to PLAY the bagpipes while driving, though on the passenger side I've direct-blown the chanter to drown out rap music from the cars beside us.
Don't blame the developers, for the most part, developers understand the problem. They understand it well because ultimately when things get screwed up, they have to pay for it.
My experience has been that developers are always screaming for process, intelligent planning, and direction, and are rarely ever getting it. An example from my own life is that our project is supposed to be at a certain goal in a few months. I found out that a month or two has been trimmed from that timeline. Why? Not because of customer demand, and not because I was ever consulted and said, "hey, we can do it faster than that". It was an arbitrary decision by the product manager, despite my various statements about when the system could be realistically ready.
I'd kill to get decent requirements and a timeline that was actually discussed with me. I'd love to have a timeline planned out that actually accounted for QA review, documentation, etc.
Sorry for the interruption. I have sent a few emails (no phone #) to the host but no response yet. You can follow my past year & two 745 experiences along with a lot of other victims at http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e65/forum.php
Will auto insurance in the future cover kernel panic related accidents?
Insurance company: So the accident was caused when the steering wheel ceased to function?
Driver: Yes, that's right.
Insurance company: What version of Linux are you using?
Driver: Ummmm.... 2.4.6
Insurance company: I'm sorry, your policy only covers as far back as 2.4.12.
This sig has been temporarily disconnected or is no longer in service
It looks like slashdot has just gotten the mans account suspended for posting a link to those videos. The editiors need to have some respect and ask before they post a link.
I then download all the clips in OSX/Safari beta/WMP loads and plays just fine.
I don't even want XP Pro in my house never mind CE functioning in my car. I'll keep my 3 series thank you.
Cars with onboard computers controlling them.
Linux based ummm no insanity..
Commodores.. Gee I'm supprised the car didn't reject the computer.
and possably others...
It happends a lot that somebody will try to build a computer into something normally not computer controlled using off the shelf computers.
AT&T 3B2 used on Coke machines for example.
However the resulting systems work.
It's not so much a matter of outside develupment or even Microsoft as much as it is just that you want consistant behavure when your doing something like this.
Geos 64 flakes occasionally so it should produce similare results. Early Macs had problems that would preclude them.
An open source bad would be the Gecko with OS/65.. It wasn't made for production use and could flake occasionally.
Just use the right os for the job.
Microsoft would have you make the job fit Windows. Linux would have you make Linux fit the job. Between the two I think Linux makes more sense but there will always be a better answer.
I don't actually exist.
Hey, even though my car has recently been impounded for multiple emissions test failures, I cannot say I have ever had the kinds of problems this BMW owner has had. Seesh, just goes to show which vehicles to avoid, right?
Pete
Wow, you must have some omnipresent cops over there in the US.
In some town in the U.S., speeding fines are a major source of revenue. Some of the cops in those places do nothing all day but hide their car behind some bushes and scan for speeders with a radar gun. A favorite place to do this is on a steep downgrade where the posted speed limit is reduced by 10 MPH.
But I am a toaster! I toast, therefore I am... it is my raison D'etre.
Would anyone like a toasted teacake?
EOM
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
Does anyone here remember the Lucas three position headlight switch? Off, Dim, and Flicker. Fahrfurgnugen=electrical nightmare Cabriolet=Leaks in the rain. Three words: Four cylinder Toyota, you won't regret it.
All your database are belong to U.S.
wheres K.I.T.T. when you need him
Two followup threads off a BMW fan bboard. Original thread:
p ?postid=1644871&page=1
p ?postid=1647896&page=1
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e85/forum.ph
and for the first-hand report follow-up thread:
http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e85/forum.ph
For further information, please follow up above. TY.
As my understanding is, GM currently use Linux in the computer in my 1999 chevrolet camaro, and do so also on the Corvette range as well.
TD
The `loner' may be respected, but he is always resented by his colleagues,
for he seems to be passing a critical judgment on them, when he may be
simply making a limiting statement about himself.
-- Sidney Harris
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