Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Fights to Weaken Washington Anti-Spam Law
An anonymous reader writes "According to the Seattle Times, Microsoft (probably their MSN arm) is pushing for a change in at least Washington's anti-spam law. Some analysts claim that the changes contain holes that will allow Microsoft to be exempt from the law." Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
No, it's not. Laws that apply to everyone but you are very handy.
Do as I say, not as I do.
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
That's not odd at all. That's just how microsoft works. They want to protect their monopoly, and perhaps extend it to new products (Microsoft Brand Penis enlargers anyone?).
Microsoft has never played by the rules before, I don't know why anyone would think they'd start doing it now. . .
See, Microsoft is trying to create a monopoly on spam for itself. No one can spam but them if it works out :-)
Sig- http://www.dreamhost.com/rewards.cgi?ayefly
I don't think it's odd that microsoft is fighting spam, and at the same time sending it... come on... think about it...
:P
1. We advertise MSN/Hotmail as anti-spam...
2. We spam the living snot out of every other ISP on the planet
3. We put neat little check boxes on our web based email pages that say "ULTIMATE ANTI_SPAM FILTER" and the like
4. Everyone switches to MSN/Hotmail
5. Profit.
So you see Microsoft has it all planned out...
QED...
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
Who do they think they are? Congressmen?! No loophole for you!
Does Microsoft send out a lot of spam? I haven't gotten much MS spam, and you'd think that having an insurmountable monopoly would preclude the necessity for spamming. I mean, where can they go from the top? That's right, down. And that's where angering their customers with spam could take them.
Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
laws that just apply to me. Such as the proposed Travis-Goodspeed-is-excempt-from-the-DMCA-and-EULA s Act of 2003.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Does MS activly court spammers? Does MS actually SELL it's OWN SUBSCRIBER LISTS to spammers? This doesn't make any sense to me, unless MS will soon start spamming everyone on the planet to buy XP, Office 2k3, and all 12 million unsold copies of MS Bob. On the plus side, that would make MS more hated by the general public ;)
Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
What does this mean? Well, hotmail will still be a cesspool of forged/autogen'd spams (as will AOL, etc), since the ISPs cannot be held liable. What interests me is that the other ISPs weren't mentioned.
Ultimately, there is the annoying problem of your service provider issuing you spam and selling your personal information... but that seems like another can of worms.
Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
Just like Microsoft to do this. On one hand, they want to fight spam. On the other hand, if they aren't successful fighting it (or at least somewhat effective), then they don't want to be responsible for the consequences.
Just like anyone who charges $$$ for software, but ducks responsibility when it has flaws, risks, and other defects. This activity only helps their cause by letting them cover their asses if they can't do it.
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
Odd? Hardly. Microsoft feels it is above the standard of most Good Corporate Citizens because they have a monopoly. Remember when MS' updater said no info would be sent back to MS? Well just have a look at what XP is sending back to MS for an example of their power-crazed mindset.
Trolling is a art,
microsoft as usual, move along move along.
time to set up a msft.slashdot.org so the shit gets filtered away from the front page.
some interesting spam with full screen ads for XP home edition and numerous 'informational' mailings from Microsoft concerning various products.
None of which I have asked for.
The XP ones were interesting because they did not appear to come from Microsoft and they had no call to action such as an 800 number or website.
Maybe these are related?
Wierd.
Blogging because I can...
But it would also carve out a broad exemption in the law for mail sent by companies the recipient has done business with, and completely exempt Internet service providers -- including Microsoft. Yeah, that's not a hole. How hard would it be for a spammer to start a side business of being an isp to get around this? And since Microsoft only "done business" with practically everyone who's ever bought or used a computer (I'm sure someone out there is weaning their kids on *nix, but the rest of us...), that means free spam all day every day from our "partner".
What's the point of an anti-spam law when it's utterly unenforceable anyway?
Having it lock up on me might not be so bad, but the BSOD scares the living shit out of me...
Why the heck are so many groups trying so hard to preserve a form of advertising that no one pays attention to?
I swear, if the Internet didn't boom so quickly, banner ads might still have been looked upon as a viable outlet for advertising. I mean really, what makes banner ads so much worse than radio ads? I ignore radio and TV ads just as easily by changing the channel. The only advertising worth a damn was the small posters on the railroad. I'll be damnned if each and every one of those ads weren't burned into my memory from staring at them during my hour commute each way, 5 days a week.
I'm not sure how the Hotmail and MSN arms of MS are organized but I'd say they are different arms that aren't communicating with each other, one pro spam the other anti spam.
afai remember Hotmail is based out of CA, and I'm not sure where MSN is.
"Not knowing when the dawn will come, I open every door." - Emily Dickinson
MS sells hotmail info to marketers. That means MS profits by selling my email address to spammers. If spammers are constrained, so is a prime MS revenue channel.
How is that kind of obvious scheme odd, except in that it is allowed to exist in the first place...
Remember, investing in MS is risking having your own money used against you in the marketplace.
If Microsoft is allowed to rail-road this legislation through, what does that mean for the the integrity of consumer rights? A company that was sued by the government should not have a hold over it.
Just because someone has done business with a company doesn't mean that they want gobs of mail that they didn't ask for. Transactions don't entitle a company to move into a person's life.
Brought to you by the Artificial Idea Factory.
sex
Very popular slashdot journal for adul
Commercial speech is not protected by the First Amendment. Thus, we need not think spam laws are bad, ever.
Now, say it to the reps in Washington State before they let Microsoft out of the cage to devour all of us.
Anyone got the emails for these people?
In space, no one can hear you moo.
It is quite interesting to see so many people to believe in what the article says. There is no way Microsoft will want the law to exempt only them. This is stupid itself, and actually when you read and understand what's really going on you see that it is not the case. Stupid Microsoft bashing is so boring, and I guess that's probably one of the reasons why Slashdot is not so popular anymore. What is interesting here is that why there are still people who knows how to use internet, but still can't make any judgement on these issues. It is clearly a lie. I mean I can't imagine a more clear lie than this. The Slashdot guy is lying. That's as simple as that.
...but I'm not going to subscribe. Why don't you just tell us so we don't have to pay them to tell us? Surely you know that the results are only available to subscribers, right?
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
-Must not be an avid reader of Slashdot
Microsoft is .. trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users
Mod parent +5 funny.
The sponsor of this bill deserves the same treatment unleashed on the spammer who is receiving his own snail mail spam because slashdot readers did what was necessary to send a message. Just my opinion of course.
So, what was it again? Posting of the spammer's home address, telephone number and other info so the bots pick it up? In my opinion, I think it should have been taken farther. Add the office assistants. Add the other family members. They need to receive all the junk as well. Then maybe they won't prostitute themselves to the 900 lb gorilla.
This shouldn't be a one time thing. Other sponsors and votes will be needed to pass this bill. Whatever bill it is, it won't be the same as what was proposed. They will "make changes" to make it "acceptable". But anyone supporting or voting for this bill deserves being identified by the spambots. Slashdot readers need to have long memories on this particular bill. It needs to be demonstrated to any future legislator who is thinking of prostituting themselves to the spammers or to the Direct Marketing Association on the Do Not Call FCC federal list that they will get all the junk if they force us to get all the junk.
Any country who harbors terrorists is a terrorist. Wasn't that the saying?
Again, of course, just an opinion. We are still allowed to have opinions, aren't we?
DR GODWIN ADAMS.
NIGERIA NATIONAL PETROLEUM CORPORATION (NNPC)
20B IKOYI CRESCENT, LAGOS NIGERIA.
E-mail godwinadams@hotmail.com
TEL-FAX- 234 -01- 7744315
RE:URGENT & CONFIDNTIAL BUSINESS PROPOSAL...
Error encountered in IAWebSig.clsSig.Create: Last Procedure: sPrc_Ins_tblSig
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
Microsoft doesn't want fully effective anti-spam laws. If they successfully sue spammers attacking them, and make hotmail fairly spam free, with a law where only Microsoft big enough to do something about it, then they have a monopoly on anti-spam email.
"Probably the toughest time in anyone's life is when you have to murder a loved one because they're the devil." -Philips
My guess is that they don't even know that they are fighting aginst themselves. That would be typicial of a large organization.
Ted
Fantasy remains a human right; we make in our measure and in our derivative mode... -- JRR Tolkien
Anyone ever noticed that Microsoft is the exact opposite of big and hard?
I could be totally mistaken, but I think bcentral is one of their major spamming arms. As I understand it (not totally sure), you can't unsubscribe from their master list, only from the individual vendors they send spam for.
Correct me if I'm wrong. I tried to find the truth but got lost in the process.
digital penis == my erections are controlled by firmware
Looks like you don't have anything to worry about. You're using Compaq Digital Penis 5.0g!
There's spam on MSN/Hotmail ? Just what are you talking about? I'll show you, just lemme open my old account... ...omg
is the reduction from $500 to $10. For $500, it's actually worth it to try to track the spammers down and sue his ass. But no one is going to go through that much trouble for just $10, unless their time is completely worthless.
Not to mention the whole "previous business relationship" is total BS. Companies swap email address lists and call each other 'partners'. It's a bunch of crap. I think they ought to rase the fee to $5000. Make it worth someone's time to sue.
autopr0n is like, down and stuff.
Known MS Slogan: "What you want to do today"
Real MS Slogan: "Do as I say, not as I do"
When criminal pays police to look the other way while they commit a crime. Only here, the criminal is Microsoft and their pricey lawyers who are oogling the boys in Washington. This IS news, something new because I don't want this country to be like half the others that allow corrupt governors, policemen, ETC.
I suggest you read Slashdot
Makes perfect sense to me. Just about everyone I know uses a Hotmail aaddress as a spam magnet. If there is a genuine effort to outlaw spam, especially at the federal level, Hotmail could lose a bunch of business.
And I agree with everyone else - Hotmail's spam filters really suck! I created a bunch of custom filters using the obvious words (penis, porn, sexy, tits, etc.) and lost about half the spam. Throw in other words like "free" and put them in a pre-sort file and you can lose another dozen.
I do NOT want a mis'feature' that ends up sticking my shlong to the top of a tube or something
Banaaaana!
from Bill Gates as the Borg, to Bill Gates as Judge Dredd...
"I don't break the law... I am the law!!"
Erm... on second thought, scratch that... might be too close to the truth to be funny.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
It's interesting that the representative from Kirkland is the sponsor. The leading spammer here is costco.com (based in Kirkland, WA)
Here's my take:
The "done business" change is iffy. The justification is probably that it allows a company who sold a defective product to contact their customers with information on a security patch, or whatever. I can see how Microsoft would feel that such communications would be absolutely necessary for their business.
However, it also allows every FlyByNight company I ever ordered RAM from to send me spam without repercussions.
I don't like the broad opening, but I think some exemption should be allowed for messages that concern failings in a product that I've already purchased.
The ISP change is less iffy. I don't get much spam directly from ISPs. All it needs is a clause that specifies that the ISP can only send messages that directly concern the details of their customer's current account. So, sending a warning about a violation of the terms of use should be fine. Advertisements about additional services such as domain name registration should contain the ADV: tag.
So, that's my opinion. The changes Microsoft is lobbying for are bad, but they could be motivated by reasonable goals. I hope Washington State lawmakers can find a way to address the goals without providing such gaping holes in the spam laws.
I used to be a narrator for bad mimes. (wright)
that's the sound of the other shoe dropping.
microsoft wanted to stop *illegal* spam, because it interfered with their *legal* spam.
Microsoft applies for spam patent.
Love Music? Got a Band? Are you a Label? http://garageradio.com
1) Establish business relationship with all customers.
2) Spam all customers.
3) ???
4) Profit!
paintball
"The check's in the mail"
-Bill
I'd rather be a conservative nutjob than a liberal with no nuts and no job.
Moderators: Don't agree? pray tell why.
Getting a spam law written that will past first ammendment scruitiny is not that easy.
Commercial speach is not free speach. They can claim what they like, but the spammers are trying to sell you a something be it a site, a product, etc.
remove cmdrtaco@slashdot.org
Microsoft has never played by the rules before, I don't know why anyone would think they'd start doing it now. . .
One thing I'll say for M$: they've never spammed me.
If you have done any "business" with them they can spam legaly and will spam the hell out of you just because the law will let them get away with it.
Just like how if you did any business with say amazon they feel that it is ok to bombard you with messages related to things other then you order. At least with amazon you can usally shut it up, but I MS and others would want this.
Wouldn't be surprised if MS wants to start sending "Buy this new Microsft Product," "Here is our news letter," "Here is our daily reminder of why you need RMS (the scheme formaly known as DRM)," etc and get any of their 2nd and 3rd party friends exempt.
You can't say this isn't in character.
Anyway, if Microsoft wasn't there, who would we hate?
This space intentionally left blank.
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
--Storm
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
Right. About as odd as a football player who is simultaneously trying to stop the other team from scoring a touchdown, and to make sure that his team can score a touchdown without penalties.
Who modded this interesting? This is a shill to sell the information that is so tantalizingly described in the first three pages of the linked website. Then they tell you you've got to pay (and the pay page is in German!). Other than that, there's no content besides that satisfying MS dyspepsia that is so well received here. Go ahead and read the parent post again. See? Nothing there!
This (parent) post is SPAM and nothing more! I hope I get to meta-mod this! Moderators... please read the articles, read the posts, and READ THE LINKS! (well, unless the link is to that horrid goatsx site!)
Everything I've ever learned the hard way was based on a statistically invalid sample.
Or maybe just horribly bad reporting (but probably not). The Library of Congress website has no record of either Senator Finbeiner (not to mention the fact that "Kirkland" is not a state) or of Bill 5734. I could also find no record of the author, Paul Queary, at the Associated Press site.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
44
I wonder how their ISP exemption is worded. If I, as Joe Spammer, buy at T1 from a provider (say UUNet), and spam off it 24/7, but I also have one hosting customer on the line, then I am an ISP. Am I at this point exempt by their law?
Little mis-wordings leave big loopholes. Most of the spammers that I've talked to buy fairly big lines (T3's, 100Mb/s dedicated, etc, etc), and usually have at least one box hosted with them for whatever reason. Not by design, usually as favors to friends, but they're still providing an Internet Service (ISP = Internet Service Provider).
The company I work for, we buy huge amounts of bandwidth, and for the most part host ourselves.. Does that qualify us to send spam? We don't, and know our customers don't like it, and our provider wouldn't allow it (I've talked to our providers abuse guy several times on other issues, but I already know he's hard against), so we never will, but by that new law we should use our new-found ability.
I wonder if the market for toner cartridges and hair growth formula are really that good.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
Okay...Microsoft does a lot of business with a lot of people in a lot of ways and it would be very easy for them to get sued over something they may have accidentally signed up for, etc...
:)
For this I could see the "prior relationship" reasoning - much like the current telemarketting stuff.
However, the ISP part doesn't make much sense, unless they wanna be able to send tons of junk mail to their MSN subscribers about other MS junk.
Either way - a) how hard would it be for a spammer to forge a database showing how recipient a had clicked on a web site and signed up b) act as an ISP (yeah...we have 2 subscribers, but we're an ISP) and spam away.
Then again, I'm one of those old folk who remember the Internet before business took hold
I love how that article you linked to says that Microsoft uses SSL to transfer the small amount of info back to Microsoft. It's thought of as a bad thing, I suppose.
I would be more worried if they weren't using encryption.
"It's only wrong/illegal if someone else does it."
I've encountered the same situation with Earthlink. Because I use a DDNS service (whyi.org), because they cannot do a reverse lookup (the reverse zone belongs to my ISP), they bounce my messages as spam. At the same time, I was getting voluminous amounts of spam from their users.
However, trying to steer the lawmaking apparatus, no doubt with bribe^H^H^H^H charitable donations to our elected officials is very very low...
--Storm
completely spam the living bejesus out of people to get rid of their surplus of Windows ME OS
Has anyone else noticed that the Junk Mail filter for Hotmail actually filters out spam mail from hotmail staff accounts (increase your box size to 10 MB!!!!), sounds like a penis enlarging ad to me!
As with other replies to this post: this post appears to be set up to make money on the backs of zealotrous (sp?) MS haters.
To make the matter simple: Yes, the Windows Update component needs to get data about your Windows installation in order to generate a list of installable components that you do not already have. This information is not sent to Microsoft proper; it never meets the scrutiny of their eyes.
The article linked in the parent builds up angst by going through painstaking detail how they analyzed what MS is "hiding" from you, but in the end asks you to pay for the answer. Save your money, folks.
Thinking about it.... Why would Microsoft be so concerned about sending spam mail when most of their advertisement links are pre-installed in the software...
Let me play paranoid for a few moments (ok I've witnessed the industry too long, I am more at the professional level) and think about the desire to remotely disable software (or other nasty mail based instructions), would that not also be considered "Unsolicited Email"
Hmmm...
"Enjoy what you're doing! If it becomes drudgery, you're doing it wrong!" - Jim Butterfield
I've been spammed many times from MSN, and from other spammers hiding out in the Redmond Empire's IP range. I've had their entire set of IP ranges in our mail server's 'Deny' list for nearly two years. No regrets whatsoever.
/etc/tcp.smtp file, and recompile it.
For those who want to do similarly, and who run their own mail servers, let me save you a little research.
If you run qmail or a similar package with rblsmtpd, make the following entry in the
207.46.:allow,RBLSMTPD="Microsoft: Access denied." (Or whatever text you want in there).
There are other domains. You may want to add:
207.68.128-207.:allow,RBLSMTPD=(Text as above).
65.52-55.:
213.199.144-159.:
For those using postfix, simply add these to your client_check and sender_check lists, and recompile with postmap.
microsoft.com 554 Go away, Bill. (or whatever you want to say).
msft.net 554 (whatever you want to say)
msn.com (if desired)
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Wonder if Overture needs the cookie for this to actually have effect. I don't wanna risk it.
This (brief) code is hereby released, without copyright, under the GNU General Public License version 2.
Sigh. Probably true. But give a spammer or telemarketer or other sleazeball a tiny crack and they'll stretch it to allow everything.
For instance, the "Do Not Call" list, according to this would have exemptions for a number of groups. And there seems to be a blanket exemption for charities. Just this hole raises lots of potential - the telemarketers will pay the charity some amount per call to call on their behalf -- and then toss in their sales pitch.
Just Say EGBG!
You bring up the very good point that our system is flawed in that businesses, rather than people control the government.
It is also important to remember that the opposite extremes (socialism and communism) suck in that the community exploits the individual. Corporations, despite their wanton disregard for human rights are still bound by the laws of profit. We need to start taking advantage of this.
For example, start a petition for network admins that would allow Office attachements if, and only if, the spec was publicly released. If enough of us, the ones that control mail servers, do this it could force M$ into releasing the spec to save Office's viability.
Winshit boycotts would not work. We are not the sort of people who buy winshit, we are either boycotting it for ethical reasons of using a warez copy.
The Warez industry has been decimated by the OSS movement. Who would want to hurt a good ol' honest business like that!?
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
Microsoft thinking they have one set of rules and everyone else has another... and how is this strange? It's not right, but it IS TYPICAL.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= - The Celtic - =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Looked at one way, Microsoft is only trying to limit their legal liability for something that they are too lazy, too uninterested, or too incompetent to stop on their own.
It's a matter of control without responsibility. The measures that the article mentions are as draconian as spam is loathsome. The measure provides a penalty of a thousand dollars per message sent and it is bound to bankrupt anyone caught doing it; essentially providing the equivalent of a class-suit in a can.
This is a very effective measure against spam as written, but even a penalty as severe as the one mentioned would be only an inconvenience to Microsoft which would be made to pay for their taste for expansion with real risks under a law that provided effective penalties against spam.
Once more, the topic is control without responsibility and there is nothing surprising about Microsoft, a company that writes Petri dishes into its software and doesn't take them out after years of exploits, wanting special exemptions for the next time they are fooled, hacked, or get a wild-hair that makes them do what back-alley creeps resort to.
To mail me, remove the 'mailno' from my email addy.
"Yeah. It smells, too..."
and you'd all best crimestop now!
Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties.
Microsoft does an ok job at Hotmail, but there is one thing that it misses - itself.
My mail is set to exclusive on Hotmail, meaning if you are not on my safe list, your mail gets dumped into my Junk Mail folder. Seven day old messages get erased from Junk Mail permanently. This applies to all emailers, except Microsoft, whose 75KB Hotmail ads trying to promote paying for more services show up in my Inbox, not Junk Mail. I have to manually delete these.
Two things I want changed at Hotmail:
1. Microsoft better learn how to filter itself. Properly.
2. Junk Mail should not contribute to my space usage on Hotmail. If I get a lot of spam, Hotmail sends me a message saying to erase it, flooding it further. God forbid I fet another ad. When you have 2MB of space, and Junk Mail counts towards it, 50KB hurts. It wouldn't hurt to make the initial page after logging in say in big red letters "Erase some mail, dammit!"
Quantum Skyline
The fact-free marketing bilge on microsoft's website about why we should all be happy to have a palladium chip on our motherboards mentioned in passing that Palladium would stop spam. (Sorry can't find the link right now, it may have been updated.)
I'v been wondering how they plan to do that for a while. As discussed in other slashdot storys, the only real way to stop spam is to change the SMTP protocol so it is now longer possible to put anything you like as the email address in the From: field of an email. Only MS has the leaverage
needed to force everyone to change.
Perhaps I'm paranoid, but it seems to me that it would be entierly in character for MS to invent an antispam system, which will of course be created in a way that benifits MS, probably by being windows centric, then try their hardest to derail any alternatives, including trying to block antispam laws.
You forgot the most important step in any high-tech venture:
5. ??????
6. Profit!
Engineering and the Ultimate
I'm pretty sure it pertains to current "do not call" laws against telemarketers. You might be able to stop strangers from calling you, but you don't have the right to make your credit card company, current telephone or cell phone provider, or other service provider, from interupting your dinner with offers.
I have blog like everyone else
..And how they don't allow you to filter keywords, only IP addresses. I assume MS is attempting this in order to avoid mass IP block blacklisting. You get nasty complaints when a large percentage of your user base finds its outgoing e-mail getting sucked into a black hole. But then, this reveals how Swiss Cheesy MS knows MSN/Hotmail is, doesn't it?
Ever notice how a powerpoint presentation is often larger than an mpeg of ittself? Thankfully, most mailservers take care of humongous attachements on their own.
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
From the article: "But it would also ... completely exempt Internet service providers..."
Here's how spammers can make this law completely useless.
All they have to do is get a computer and connect it to the Internet via some sort of broad-band cable Internet. Then the spammer could attach a modem to the computer, let 1 person connect to the Internet via that modem, and suddenly the spammer is an Internet service provider. Hellooooo, exemptions.
With a bit of hacking, a spammer can even make a dialup Internet account behave this way. If the spammer's PC acts as a store-and-forward e-mailing service, then the spammer can claim an exemption.
Wait a minute, that's what spammers DO. Right, that means we're all SCREWED.
This ISP exemption will therefore make the law completely useless if the spammer has a smart lawyer.
These changes must be stopped. NOW.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. - Edmund Burke
OK what do you call CNET, it is one of the largest bulk senders, all its newsletters are 100% opt in
What do you call Code Amber which distributes Amber alert warnings to opted in subscribers?
What do you call Amex, Ebay, and the hundreds of companies that use the web to do legitimate business with their customers?
I want my bills sent by email rather than snail mail. I want to be able to send and receive richly formatted HTML emails rather than teletype pieces of crud in monospace fonts.
I think that the blanket statements such as 'no bulk senders are legitimate' illustrate the real problem here, too many people have simplistic solutions that will eliminate spam for their proposers and people just like them but require everyone to adopt their limited uses
If I had moderation points, you would be flamebait right now.
I really do believe the world at large (minus 1) does understand the difference between opt-in mailings and UCE (unsolicited commercial e-mail) spam.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
It seems to be a common belief that it is okay to send anything you want to anyone you have a prior business relationship with. Fuck that. If I buy stuff off someone, it does not mean that I want them to pester the hell out of me so I can buy more stuff.
I didn't know one existed, an neither do the spammers, it would seem.
It passed the Senate but never passed the House of Representatives... It's cited by spammers in order to trick you that the spam is legitimate and that you can't do anything about it. See link here.
sounds like microsoft is forseeing a large market in selling advertising to their customers.
here's the senario:
spammer wants to send mail to all hotmail or msn (or both) users. spammer gives microsoft money, and then is able to send them "legal" spam. the spam doesn't stop, microsoft just gets richer in the process, and probably pays off a few politicians.
vote the bastards out.
Why read the article when I can just make up a snap judgement?
It's the wrong number that's all.
0 12 102.htm
http://www.src.wa.gov/news/pr/2002/finkbeinerpr
Also this is washington state too remember. I guess you run outa names down there.
It is odd that you focused on the encrypted part. I guess that part about "sending data back to Microsoft" just flew right over your head, huh?
You apparently cannot read, I said that there were legitimate classes of bulk email sender. I did not say there were legitimate classes of bulk unsolicited email senders.
The term bulk email sender is a term of art in the world of anti-spam measures. It is used by Microsoft, AOL, CNET and others to refer to themselves.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
When I had a hotmail account, yes I was young and foolish, 90% of the spam originated from msn, microsoft and hotmail. It would seem to me if they stopped spamming everyone that would take care of their spamming problem on the hotmail servers.
"Odd that Microsoft is simultaneously trying to stop spam sent to Hotmail users, and to make sure that it can send unsolicited commercial email without penalties" That's called capitalism: unscrupulous self-interest. Right, if all goes according to theory, this should be helping everyone in the long run, right? *cough* Those conservative theorists had their head in the clouds and overlooked the fact that unmitigated self-interest leads to market superfluities, like money wasted on advertizing. (By wasted I mean it does nothing but drain resources and produces nothing except to brainwash consumers into purchasing inferior product A instead of inferior product B.)
Repeal the DMCA!
Well, this one's simple.
1. My current telephone provider calls me, trying to sell something.
2. I tell them that if they ever call me again without a GOOD reason, I switch to a DIFFERENT phone provider.
3. They haven't called me since.
-Amalcon
looks like a classic case of they wanna have their cake and eat it too.
goddamed FANBOY spam?!?
Seriously, I can understand spamming for some (low) profit, but spamming without direct benefit?
It's almost better if they are behind it somehow.
Blogging because I can...
Even though technically, I did sign up on their list way back when
:P
Congrats. They can spam you at will because they
have your permission to do so until the end of
time unless you notify them otherwise which it
doesn't seem you have done.
this might end up being catagorized as SPAM, and as such
In what alternate reality? You gave them permission.
See point above.
Microsoft may end up with one hell of a penalty... I'm of the opinion, that they are simply trying to cover their asses, since it's rather easy to claim what they sent is spam from one of the "I hate Microsoft" zealots, and real difficult for Microsoft to provide hard evidence that says, "Here, you opted in to be on your mailing list back in 1998"... See the potential problem to be screwed over by ANTI-MICROSOFT activists?
Ok, I see you trying very hard here to say
something negative about the honest hardworking
people that generally just don't like the way
Microsoft does business, but it just doesn't fly.
You can't connect a pointless "whatif" that has
no merit to "anti-microsoft zealots" without being
a zealot yourself. Nice try though.
It's not a plot to give Microsoft control over bulk unsolicited email distribution, it's just some lawyers and accountants going... HOLY CRAP! We need damage control, and we need it NOW!
Actually, it does appear to be a shifty play to give
microsoft control over bulk email distribution.
At least, the state of washington seems to think
it's a little fishy and it is kinda up to them
so I'm more inclined to believe the state and
lawmakers that made the bill over an increasingly
greedy and untrustworthy corporation that has
been declared a monopoly in the highest court in
the land, and one of it's misguided fans. No
disrespect intended.
The most important thing any republican needs to know.
They don't mean no harm guy. And I'm married to morgan fairchild. Yeah yeah. That's tha ticket!
But what if Microsoft controled all spam and I couldn't get it on my Linux machine?
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
Bill number 6568 isn't in the database, either. And the two Senators for Washington State are Maria Cantwell and Patty Murray (according to the Senate's site.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
Ah. The reason he's not in the Senate database is because he's a Rep, despite both articles cited so far (go media accuracy! :). And according to his own website, he's not currently sponsoring this bill. Search the LOC site for "spam", the only bill that comes up is House Resolution 122, whose purpose is "To amend section 227 of the Communications Act of 1934 to prohibit the use of the text, graphic, or image messaging systems of wireless telephone systems to transmit unsolicited commercial messages." It's a dupe.
My sister opened a computer store in Hawaii. She sells C shells by the seashore.
Either the US or China should declare war on the other, already. I'm sick of this crap.
It used to be that countries would declare war on each other because of petty rivalries between dukes and princes. Now, it sometimes takes an act of god to get them to go at it. How stupid is that?!?!
We're spending billions of dollars (a big chunk of our GDP) on national defense. And we never even use it! We shuffle our troops from base to base, sure, and we log our mileage and tally our days in service and hang our medals. But do we ever do anything productive? Do we ever kill anyone? Of course not.
Is it because we can't anymore? Bullshit. It's because we're afraid to. It's because we've let ourselves get castrated by the liberal media and their doomsday predictions about what might happen if one nation accidentally steps on the toes of the other.
Are we the world's largest superpower or what?!?! Is Bush to big a chump or is he just a pansy?!?!
If we don't start declaring open war on countries that disrespect our sovereignty, then foreign countries will think they can get away with pissing us off. Can you imagine FDR or Eisenhower letting the Chinese hold our American soldiers hostage like this? We haven't seen crap like this since Jimmy Carter, and let me tell you, those were some pretty sad days.
We must settle for no less than outright war. They think they have the upper hand now, but wait until we give it to them old-fashioned American style. They probably don't even have all those nukes they keep whispering about. Have we ever seen them detonate one? Well have we? NO! They don't exist.
Once open war is declared, our economy will boom. It'll be the answer to our recent economic downturn. Look at how WW2 pulled us out of the Depression. And look at how much more expensive modern equipment is. More expenses mean more contribution to our economy and our GDP. That means more funding for the military. It's a positive feedback loop.
And when we're done with China, we should go back to the USSR and show those guys what we're made of. We never bombed them for the U2 incident all those years ago, so it's time we showed them what for. That's what distinguishes the men from the Canadians.
..software.
Since they are coming out with this new CRM software, if it has the ability to do email 'Customer Relationship Management' (read: spam), they may be trying to get a break to keep their customers from being flagged as spammers by sending out unwanted email updates.
...every time I see how many slashdot users are humor-impaired.
A prophet is also, in common parliance, someone who foretells the future.
What he's saying is, if you say anything bad about government, you will eventually be proven right.
I would add, myself, that, like all other human endeavors, if you say something bad about government, you will eventually be proven right *AND* wrong... probably repeatedly.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Microsoft does, in fact, sell email addresses. I have firm firsthand evidence of this.
They do NOT automatically sell email any address created on MSN. They DO sell addresses, probably at irregular intervals, of people who have somehow gotten onto their mailing lists. They MAY filter out all of the MSN email addresses before they sell those lists; I wouldn't know, since I've never had a MSN account.
But I have one account (msspam@mymachine.com) that I only gave to Microsoft, when I needed to give them an email address to sign up for something. This address now gets some very odd spam, albiet very rarely, as well as a MS mailing list that, with my browser, there appears to be no way to unsubscribe from.
I suppose it is possible that someone managed to compromise the mailing list by hacking into Microsoft, or perhaps by somehow interposing themselves between me and Microsoft and sniffing the email address as I sent it to them. I deem this less likely than MS selling it to someone, who sold it to someone, who... well... you get the idea.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Check out http://www.bcentral.com/products/lb/
Here is what it states
Microsoft bCentral
E-mail Marketing with List Builder
Attract and retain customers with professional-looking e-mail announcements and newsletters. This is a very cost-effective way to reach customers, with the added benefit that you can target different customer segments with personalized messages. With Microsoft bCentral List Builder, you can: Use personalization features to address your subscribers by name, or to customize your messages based on their profile and demographics. Track the number of mails that are opened and the links your subscribers follow. Enable customers to opt in or out of a subscription.
Looks like a commercial junk mailer to me.....
...I'd mod his sig as '+11: funniest damn thing I've ever seen'.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Scott Hazlegrove is the Microsoft lobbyist they are talking about.
Here is Scott Hazlegrove, "environmental policy director with the Association of Washington Business" arguing against stepped penalties for river poluters, instead he wants a nice flat fee (which would favour the bigger poluters over the little ones).
http://www.crcwater.org/fish/npfish35.html
Here he is as a Surefoot customer:
"I am writing to express my thanks and appreciation for the first decently fitting ski boots I have ever worn.", "I wouldn't think of buying a pair of boots anywhere else."http://www.surefoot.com/surefoot_-_customer_letter s.html
Here he is at his lobbying firm (this page has disappeared from the site, but google still has it):
The google cache link
From the article:
"We probably aren't going to want to take any steps back," Finkbeiner said.
Uuuuuhuu, Very reassuring. It's not a statement, just a display of who can dictate your government. And a hope that they want the right thing for us....
http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/
The bill in question has been referred to the Senate Technology & Communications Committee. The sponsors of the bill happen to be all of the members of the committee, which sounds to me as if the Chairman (Sen. Esser, whose district includes Redmond), has smiled on it rather heavily. It has not had a hearing yet, nor is it scheduled for a hearing the next time the committee meets (27 February). There are just a few weeks left for bills to have hearings in the committees, so it's possible that the purpose of the bill has been served just by submitting it, and there is no further interest in actually passing the bill.
OTOH, it just may not have come up for the hearing yet for other reasons, and it's not safe to assume that it's dead at this point in time when the entire committee sponsored it. So, for those who might be interested in knowing what to do, here are some ideas:
When contacting Senators, please have something short and intelligent to say. If you are going to testify at the hearing, that goes double. MS lobbyists are going to be slick, and if the opponents of the bill look like a bunch of hicks or idiots, the contrast is going to be noticeable. There are more good ideas on how to testify on the legislature's website.
Supporting evidence? Documentation? You clearly haven't read the actual proposed amendments, or you would have made some reference to them.
... with businesses' desire to tap the Internet as an advertising medium.' Not 'with ISPs' desire not to be left holding the bag'.
You assume (as many Slashdotters do) that the person who wrote the original article, as well as the people he interviewed, must all be dumber than you, and that nobody else thought of this interpretation, instead of having thought of it and discarded it.
In the absence of any documentation other than the article, you take the parts of the article that conform to your worldview and paint a picture with them. You assume that anything in the article that doesn't conform to your worldview can be safely discounted... in effect, that you are so much smarter than the people interviewed and the writer that you don't need to check their sources... you just somehow know the truth.
This is commonly known as hubris. (Or, well, it would be, if people had bigger vocabularies these days.)
Even MS, in the article, states that the bill is 'aimed at balancing the interests of consumers
Plus they want damages capped at $25k per day, which MS could pay out of petty cash, as could any other huge business, but which basically knocks small business out of the illegal spam game.
Hubris. Look it up.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
It's fine, trying to be reasonable. I like that. So here's me trying to reciprocate.
:-)
You've misread the article.
The original Washington state anti-spam legislation was passed years ago. It has nothing what-so-ever to do with putting 'ADV:' into the header of advertisments. It says 'you can't spam in Washington state', to put it simply.
The article claims that the new legislation does three things:
1) Requires all unsolicited commercial e-mail to include "ADV:" as the first four letters of the Subject. Of course, this is on TOP of the fact that it is illegal, so it does seem a little silly.
2) Carves out a broad exemption, not only to the new 'ADV:' part of the bill but to the original UCE law currently in effect, for businesses that have 'done business with' the person they're sending email to in the past.
3) COMPLETELY exempts all ISPs, not only from the new 'ADV:' part of the bill but to the original UCE law currently in effect.
4) Lowers damages to a point where large companies such as MS would not be at all bothered by them, and caps them at $25k per day: peanuts to Microsoft, but a lot for a small business or lone spammer. This are not only damages for breaking the 'ADV:' part of the bill, but for the original UCE law currently in effect.
So MS is lobbying to eliminate an older law which prohibits it from spamming. It has taken three separate approaches, any one of which will allow it to spam with impunity if it goes through.
Incidentally, if you read the old law, commercial email is email that is designed to solicit users to buy or sell a product or service. Under this law, there is no way that any notification of a security patch could, by any stretch of the imagination, be called UCE under the bill. Nor could any information sent by an ISP about a violation of the terms of use.
So, you stated your opinion. My opinion is that you should do a little research, and perhaps even reread the article, before stating your opinion. Not doing so simply spreads ignorance further. And insulting those people who have read the article more carefully than you have makes you look like the one who needs a banana.
There... I was civil. I was nice. I didn't say where he should put the banana.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
It led me to a nice text page with their physical contact information.
would anybody in the Guilford, CT (203 area code) local calling area be willing to call them ( 1-203-467-5378 ) and express my distaste? It'll just take you a moment of your time (kinda like their spam).
(The page that describes their spam tools and points to the page above is here, if you're interested)
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
State of Washington, senate bill 5734.
http://www.leg.wa.gov/sl/5734-s_sl.pdf
But it looks a little different from the way they described it...
> AN ACT Relating to agricultural fairs; amending RCW 15.76.140; and declaring an emergency.
So... unsolicited agricultural fairs... Microsoft wanting desparately to run their own agricultural fair... hmm.
It appears that the state of Washington REUSES BILL NUMBERS. After less than TWO YEARS.
I am in awe. That's the stupidest thing I've heard this evening, INCLUDING every slashdot comment I read.
-fred
Sign #11 of Slashdot overdose: You see the phrase 'moderate Republican' and you wonder if that would be a +1 or a -1.
Dunno where this quote came from, but whoever made it is a bit out of touch. The "warez industry" is flourishing - it's never been easier to acquire pirated software.
what somoene did something that microsoft doesnt like big supprise. now my take on this is that it will ruin microsofts plan to charge senders for e-mail see the penny black project. http://research.microsoft.com/research/sv/PennyBla ck/
basicly what this says is that ms wants to charge people for e-mail. with that project allready going this means microsoft is invested and this bill will kill it for the most part. because their big target for it is spam.
Please forgive my ignorance if I am so.
/.), but wouldn't that be the best way to solve this problem without getting government involved.
But I believe the answer to fighting spam is in petitioning ISPs, mail server developers, standards organizations, network admins, etc. to come up with and implement identity verification and forged mail header detection into their products so that spammers cannot hide behind fake information.
It appauls me that I can so easily fake information in mail headers that SHOULD NOT be fakeable.
Yes it would suck and be a pain in the ass to transition (as many have mentioned here on
What do we need to do to get this started, and if it already is, where can I go to sign up?
Holy damn people are stupid. How do people fall for this shit?
As a recipient of MS spam, I can tell you that the spam they have sent definitely hasn't worked on me. Have I become a .NET developer as a result of their many spams? No, the down-your-throat spam is only another sign that they don't make any win-win deals. I have avoided .NET like the plague that it is.
The spam might work on some people, but once they've had any dealing with MS tactics, they will begin to understand how they've only succeeded in dumbing down their truly valuable skills, and to lock their company in over the MS barrel.
Microsoft in the past was very resonsive toward UCE sent by MSN and Hotmail accounts, and even if the spam wasn't sent by the actual MSN^Hotmail user but mearly for the benefit of one, the accounts were suspended very quickly.
.NET thing being sold by Microsoft itself and could report it to them as SPAM. I've only gotten 1 real SPAm from Microsoft ever
That's probably why I thought very ammusing when I got a SPAM advertising some kind of a
Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
You know that M$ is beyond good and evil. UberGates, better known as The Furher, knows best. Unfortunately, this will give Micro$lop the "right" to spam anyone on any e-mail account, but then again, the Furher knows best. Of course, you can do what I do and block ALL M$ domains at the ISP level.
I too have had a hotmail address for a number of years. I only have it for instant messaging... ...I get no spam on this address apart from the monthly MS offers.
Why have they choosen not to sell my address?
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
I think the MTA's primary concern right now is avoiding a fare hike.
I for one am willing to tolerate a little hypocrisy to keep that fare $1.50.
I don't read or respond to AC posts
I AM LURKING FOR CONFIDENTIAL AND HONEST PEOPLE FOR MAJOR BUSINESS TRANSACTION. YOU CAN EARN MILLIONS.
f mail.comi 4@rediffmail.com
CONTACT ME IN AMESTERDAM ON 0031630547730
OR AT THESE INTERNET ADDRESSES
carolmakali1@rediffmail.com
carolmakali2@redif
carolmakali3@rediffmail.com
carolmakal
carolmakali5@rediffmail.com
Fuck the US indeed, but I think you will find they are no a soverign state and are incapable of claiming sovereignity over anything.
"... I get no spam on this address apart from the monthly MS offers"
Firstly, because they drop the spam sent to hotmail addresses, and Secondly...
They CAN sell all non-hotmail addresses in their database, you know...
...spam TO hotmail costs them, but selling all non-hotmail addresses they have, both
a) won't cost 'em anything ( in hotmail maintenance/anti-spamming ), and
b) gets 'em money, and
c) puts users in our proper place ( hey, religion is religion, eh? and I'm not saying only Microsoft would microsoft a category of someones, many would microsoft a category of someones for little reason: Intuit seems to delight in microsofting us )
Also, note that MS has informed us that they do share their dossiers on us with their 'partner' corporations...
Messages to/for me ( in me journal )
I didn't spend the whatever amount of money to find out what info they are claiming is 'sent back to Microsoft.' Did you?
Probably it was your eBay password, your mother's maiden name, and your SSN.
Right?
I simply don't trust anything from Microsoft.
Reading this bit about Washington's law, then the Internet Week article "AOL, Microsoft Unleash Lawyers On Spammers" att icle .jhtml?articleID=6900409
http://www.internetweek.com/security02/showAr
makes me think Microsoft is anti-spam only when convenient (or only if they can make money from their stance?)
"The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." --Harlan Ellison
Both *my* state representatives filed this bill,
one Democrat and one Republican... and guess what? She used to work for Microsoft and he still does.
isn't it more like they fear being sued under the current law, with the amount of opt-in mailing lists they have... with that number of users, I just shudder at the number of people who would say they didn't opt in, but actually did
Of course, if they got exempt, that would give them a competitive advantage against aol and almost all other isps, beyond that provided by having such a large and visible "front door" as hotmail...
It isn't so much that the law won't apply to them. If it is weaker, then spam will still exist.
You can't sell your stupid butterfly dropping people into oblivion if there are no people standing in line.
They have a vested interest in spam existing. They are selling a service to get rid of spam. If the law gets rid of it, that is one less thing they can offer to customers.
"It will not ultimately end spam entirely," said Hazlegrove, who added the company was willing to work with the state and other interests on a new version. "No bill can do that."
"Oh, it's ok Washington, we'll help you. We know it's not easy making laws."
"Those who consume the bulk of goods are those who make them. We must never forget this secret of our prosperity."
One of MSN 8's chief selling points is precisely the fact that it blocks SPAM (or allows the user to "beef-up" their junkmail blocking profile). Take away the SPAM, and you take away the selling point. People might as well go for AOL...
I am alone, yet I also surf the universal backwash of undifferentiated Being, which is LOVE.
I propose that all spam be totally outlawed with the following exceptions:
Of course there is the problem of a legal definition of spam. Certainly everything that is bulk and unsolicited should be considered spam.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
You can't really use a service provided free by a company that wants to make money, and expect to not see a single advert. Spam happens, and it's obviously profitable because it's still happening. Advertising *pays* for Hotmail - while it's certainly not right to spam registered, paying users of their software (I've got no idea if this happens, but it wouldn't surprise me), anyone who sees the words "FREE STUFF!!! ENTER EMAIL ADDRESS" and expects not to be spammed is.. you know, a little slow in the realisation department.
I think Microsft wants to be able to send unsolicited email to its Hotmail users to make money by luring them to buy things other than just Hotmail service-- and possibly sell partners the right to also do so. BOOOHHH!!!!
It IS possible to tell Hotmail to block Microsoft.com as a doamin and it will, right now. I think they want to pull that and override it at whim.
I just got done watching the MSN commericial on how MSN blocks spam.
I woudn't trust a penis enlargement product with a manufacturer named MICRO-SOFT
I drink, therefore, I am.
-- W. C. Fields
Unions, governments, religions, and corporation have caused the most problems when they gained significant power.
Granted some have good intentions: Unions fight for member's wages as well as dues. Governments protect and create as well as embezzle and murder. Religions fight for virtues by shedding blood. Corporations make profit for their investors by sophocating competition and ripping off the consumer.
EULAs are the modern equivalents of granpa Simpson's strikebusting tactics. It all started when he was taking the bus to the movies, they were only a nickle for a three movies and a woopin, kept your mind on your business; so anyways he was on the bus with onions tied to his shoes, that was the style at the time and he was ridin the bus to shelbyville to watch the movies........
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.
An imbedded series of bitmaps of pages in XML is still valid XML.....
You can't judge a book by the way it wears its hair.