Slashdot Mirror
OpenBSD 3.3 Released
An anonymous reader writes "OpenBSD 3.3 was released today, with many new features, including integration of the ProPolice stack protection technology, W^X ('write xor X') on sparc, alpha and hppa, privilege separated XFree86 and an incredible number of enhancements and stability improvements to the packet filter, pf, including address pools for reverse NAT/load balancing, ALTQ integration for network conditioning, and anchors/tables/spamd for spam tar-pitting. Information on the release can be found here and download sites are listed here. (Also, here's a handy way to speed up your DSL connection - prioritizing empty TCP ACKs and ToS low-delay traffic with OpenBSD 3.3's pf.)"
Does anybody know if NetBSD has been ported to this yet?
Lets not forget about the OpenBSD Song
-dk
When did /. stories start getting FIVE icons??
Morphing Software
I'm continually impressed by the amount of improvements in each new release of OpenBSD, the frequency of the releases (6 months), and the sheer amount of value that each new release brings.
If anyone hasn't tried OpenBSD yet, give it a shot - you're certain to appreciate the quality that goes into it.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Why should someone who's using linux be interested in OpenBSD?
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
...from someone *besides* Apple, OpenBSD is the bank they should look at!
Aside from maybe the esoteric trusted OSes (i.e. Trusted Solaris), is there really another "mainstream" OS people can just rely on for security?
Hell, Bill G oughtta just start waving $$$ in front of Theo and company until they all say "OK, that will do" and join MS to show them Redmond boys the Right Way (TM) to lock down an OS*!!!
* of course the Office team would no doubt open right back up any holes the new security-conscious OS team closed down...
Also, here's a handy way to speed up your DSL connection - prioritizing empty TCP ACKs and ToS low-delay traffic with OpenBSD 3.3's pf.) ... and prioritize empty ACKs on their server's connection.
Why use a "Unix-type" OS when you can get the real thing? Plus it's legal, not like the OS that belongs to SCO. Only criminals support Linux.
I'm not done d/l'ing it yet! And it was slow *before* it got /.'ed!
Mix the failings of Usenet with the shortcomings of the World Wide Web and the result is slashdot.
A linux user might want to look at OpenBSD if they were 0wn3d and all their porn was deleted because of it.
I've been using Freebsd on my servers as of fairly recently and so far I love it. As a result, my intrest in BSD in general has grown. I was looking just today at OpenBSD and NetBSD features. OpenBSD looks fantasic and I was about to give it a whirl when I realized they don't support SMP. Now this wouldn't be an overly huge issue if it were primarily a desktop OS. I applaude all the work that has obviously gone into this project. But I will be overjoyed the day I see SMP added to the new feature list. This is NOT a troll. I think the way it stands is extremely impressive. I just want to express my sincere desire to see SMP support. =)
This is great news, or would be, if OpenBSD would actually work with our hardware. We use KVM switchs that have a mouse and keyboard plugged into a USB hub. OpenBSD just doesn't have good enough USB support to even install with a keyboard through a hub. And no, changing 'usb legacy support' in the bios does not help the problem. It is a pity. Linux kernel has the same issue, however all recent versions of Windows work fine with it.
A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
Wow, I'm impressed with this release. I think we can now say for sure that this OS is better than FreeBSD and definatly better than Linux and Win2k/XP. Good work OpenBSD developers.
Just to clarify that, W^X is not "write xor X", but "write xor execute". It's a new policy that OpenBSD uses to specify whether memory is writable or executable, but not both.
This helps prevent buffer overflows on the architectures that support it (sparc, sparc64, alpha, hppa) in that any memory that can be written to cannot be executable, and vice versa - so even if a buffer overflow succeeds in overwriting memory, that memory cannot be executed (or, the memory cannot be overwritten in the first place if it is executable).
Also note that W^X is also available on x86 in -current.
This thing that speeds up the connection (and prioritizing empty TCP ACKs
and ToS low-delay traffic)... Does that exist as a patch for linux also?
I think some ppl would be interested.
I have no pants and I must scream
the packet filter, pf, including address pools for reverse NAT/load balancing, ALTQ integration for network conditioning, and anchors/tables/spamd for spam tar-pitting.
Oh WOW!
My prayers for the packet filter, pf, including address pools for reverse NAT/load balancing, ALTQ integration for network conditioning, and anchors/tables/spamd for spam tar-pitting have been answered!
Thanks OpenBSD! Thanks for the World!!
Who are y oo ?
While I certainly can't say that "this is ALWAYS the best way to run things", I find it helpful to do split up tasks according to what I view as the respective strengths of each OS.
Firewall, Mail, and DNS I handle with OpenBSD (running Postfix and DJB's tinyDNS), and my actual website gets run on FreeBSD 5.0 in order to take advantage of SMP - a very, very stripped down FreeBSD, I might add. Looking at my loads, I'm considering setting up a secondary OpenBSD machine strictly for the apache processes, and leaving the FreeBSD machine as an ultra-stripped down DB box.
For the small business network this seems like a fairly optimal way to handle it.
When OpenBSD gets SMP (if ever), they'll effectively run my network - although a software monoculture has as many weaknesses as it does strengths (plus side: everybody uses Mozilla mail instead of OE, minus side: the first OpenBSD root exploit and you've lost the entire network).
--Ryv
Ahh, now I remember what I pay the school that monthly fee for. ~300 KB/s download for the whole thing.
I find it odd that they don't provide instructions on the site anywhere easy to find on providing mirrors. I'd like to, but fucked if I can find where.
Did anyone else find that the mirrors aren't complete yet?
-- Bill "Houdini" Weiss
...but to stay on topic, it sounds good, I will wait a week before even attempting to download it and throw it on a spare partition on my server. Quick question, is this ProPolice by Hiroaki Etoh which is integrated into OpenBSD's 'system compiler' the same as the stack protector patch for GCC developed by Hiroaki Etoh at IBM, as previously mentioned on /. concerning the new Trusted Debian 1.0 release, just without the fancy 'ProPolice' name?
MS Windows NT family (ie. NT, 2000, XP, 2003) has a MUCH better security model than any UNIX I've seen, OpenBSD in particular.
If you ask Theo, he'd probably tell you that that is a big reason why Windows is less secure. The added features make for a more complex implementation with more code. That makes mistakes more likely and audits harder.
Windows really is better technology than UNIX in most ways. The problem is in the details. Microsoft is fixing them, but compared to most UNIX products the implementation sucks.
The ProPolice (PP) stack protection is enabled by default in this release of OpenBSD. One has to wonder about the overhead PP's stack protection adds. According to this, there is some overhead, depending on the local character array usage of an application. (8% at max in a very simple program). So be warned that this protection does come at a cost.
Maybe someone can explain this to me. As I probably misunderstand it, darwin is based on BSD. so presumbaly any imrpovements in openBSD are easy to migrate to Darwin and OS X?
when can I expect I get my security enhancements in OS X?
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
Regarding various troll-slams on OpenBSD... I dunno, I'm using OpenBSD and it's great. Nowhere to go but up, as far as I'm concerned. FreeBSD and NetBSD don't have much of a value proposition in my book compared to mainstream Linux distros, but if you want a secure webserver (or network appliance) without having to patch the thing all the damn time, OpenBSD seems a heck of a lot better than any Linux variant.
That said, I'm not dogmatic about this; it's just the conclusion I've come to based on the evidence I've seen so far.
--LP
If I remember correctly, benzedrine.cx is hosted on a 512K/128K ADSL line.
/.ing.
That type of connection cannot take the
Privacy? Not in this lifetime.
With the new normal FAQ upgrades also comes the new PF FAQ:
http://openbsd.org/faq/pf/index.html
spamd, a spam deferral daemon, can be used to tie up resources on a spammer's machine. spamd uses the new pf(4) table facility to redirect connections from a blacklist such as SPEWS or DIPS.
-- Probably questionable legality and ethics on that one, being a real tool in the battle against what some call 'free speech'.
try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
I was quietly downloading the packages, and then you had to send the /. hoards after it. Now their bandwidth is shot to hell. I mean, I'm all for sharing, but I wanna get my copy before I start sharing... ;-)
ehintz
google mirror if you want to read the article on ALTQ and ACK prioritization.
Privacy? Not in this lifetime.
Which is producing the most secure server OS out of the box (of course, the fact that it's very very minimal out of the box helps).
social sciences can never use experience to verify their statemen
*BSD is dying to announce that it has once again improved that which was already considered perfect.
Way to go!
Saying your OS is the best because more people use it is like saying MacDonalds make the best food
That was all the fun of DOS assembler programming...
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
u said windows supports it, this isnt windows its linux :)
can someone plz set up bittorrents for these, or something... i've been waiting since last month to set an obsd box up.. because i wanted this release =)
And, no, I should not have used the goddamn Preview mode first.
Also, good luck getting a JDK/JRE to run here. HAHAHAHAHAHA. Fuckers.
I must have good karma.Kan jeg få en pils, vær så snill?
Google cache can be found here.
a zu 4C:www.benzedrine.cx/ackpri.html+&hl=en&ie=UTF -8
.. sorry for the plan old text.
http://www.google.com.au/search?q=cache:4jbVxQi
PS
HTML is my not so good
it's available on BudgetLinuxCDS.com for only $3
I've been waiting for this release for a number of months now and want to express my gratitude to the OpenBSD folks. Of course, that means buying a few more of their CDs. Heh, heh... Shameless support for my favorite OS. What's in their best interest is in the best interest of my computing environment, right? Good!
Now where is that post I wrote a few days ago about building a new distro called AbiertoBSD out of used car parts?
Hm.. you flame BSD and you flame Linux. Does that mean you hate them both and prefer Win/Mac/Sun? Or does that double-sided hatred actually mean you love them both. When in doubt, mod flamebait!
Damn, that business with the prioritizing ACKs sounds fantastic! I have the same setup as in their example (ADSL 512Kb down/128Kb up) and always have to put upload limits on filesharing programs so they only upload at maybe 11KB or 12KB per second, 'cos if I let them hit their full 16-ish KB/sec, the downloads choke and die.
I might have to salvage some crappy old box from work and see if I can't set it up as an OpenBSD gateway..
Just doing an update now on my test box. Once again a secure OS become even more secure. Also as mentioned in other articles OpenBSD could be argued to have the most complete Linux base with version 8. I believe FreeBSD is on 7.1 :). Who said BSD by dying?
rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
Are there any real programs that ever modify their own code, or compilers that output code that does so? OpenBSD seems to be assuming not, and I'd guess they've done their research, but it seems that whenever you forbid something that used to be legal you're inevitably going to break something that used to work.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Classic VM (build 1.3.1_02-b02, green threads, nojit)
Good luck getting performance on that vm...
For the ones not willing to change their OS only for the trafic shaper DSL trick, here's the link for linux: (including many other very interesting things...) Linux advanced routing and traffic control
enjoy it!
Q.
..secure as Windows. Thats what I want to know.
http://saveie6.com/
Plus it mentions RH 6.2, I doubt anyone is running a website on that anymore (shudder).
HAH! I know of *many* sites that use a RH 6.2 boxes for serving, and even some that use RH 5.x distros as well. Just because RH no longer rolls their own fixes doesn't mean that the distros have dried up. Many sysadmins would rather manually update the software on their servers than go thru the trouble of migrating to yet another distro.
There are also those that use a heavily locked down ancient distro for serving. Apache is kept current and everything else is closed. This is even easier to do in an environment where each task has its own server. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
I'll tell you what, there is no way in hell that I would ever use RH 8 or 9 for a server. Even a bare bones install has way too much BS. For my needs, Debian does my Linux needs quite well. As do IRIX and Solaris. RH is great for the desktop, but nutty crazy for server use.
Oh it isn't that bad. Pull the network plug and clean up the mess. Preserve the corrupted files for later and restore from your backup. (you DO have a backup, right?) and then use the RPM database to verify all of your binaries to make sure you weren't owned when you made the backup. Verifying the critical files against the installation media will ensure against a trojaned rpm/database.
Then once you are clean again, examine the saved files and try to figure out how they got in. Learn from your mistake and carry on.
Happened to me a couple of times, usually when I make a mistake in configuration or don't keep up with the errata. Yes I'd like to connect electrodes to the script kiddies testicles, but it really isn't something to get bent overly out of shape over either.
Democrat delenda est
Sun didnt commercialize FreeBSD. Solaris 1.x (SnuOS 4) shared no code wiht FreeBSD.
Ballmer is a fat stupid prick, and while its not ahrd to think of many reasons why linux sucks shit and why FreeBSD rules, Ballmer knows jack shit.
Also, FreeBSD is light years ahead of OpenShitBSD.
Those same bugs could still happen on a single-CPU system. Remember this isn't Win 3.1, this is a multitasking OS, threads can be interupted on any instruction.
The execution of instructions from Thread A and Thread B can be interleaved an any random order whether there 1-100 CPUs. The bugs are a little more likely in the SMP case, but I can't imagine a user mode bug that can happen in the SMP case, but not the single.
The latter. I just wanted to get in on the argument that people always bring up in BSD articles.
I didn't need that karma anyway.
[insert witty quote here]
Superbad's just a site I thought was sort of a creative 'web as art form' project. My site's yet another typical game review site with yet another 'dark, angsty, hateful of most games and their developers so we say 'fuck' and 'cunt' a lot' propped-up teeny-bopper edginess to it. It sucks pretty hard but we seem to get a lot of traffic *shrug* - overall I think it's better for the Internet if people go to superbad.
Just bought the CD... $40... not bad for 5 separate compiles on one cd... I'm going to take an old iMac DV (incapable of quartz extreme) and lock it down!
||| I still can't believe Parkay's not butter.
Just don't install the stuff you don't want I have a redhat that is term all no X11 desktop system that is 8 it just servers files to my other systems.
This is good news for the OpenBSD community indeed, but rather than downloading, you might consider buying the CD set from a retailer near you to fund further development. Given the recent funding issues, now couldn't be a better time to support this superb open source project.
Like tinyurl, but one letter less! http://qurl.co.uk/
Support the OpenBSD developers by getting a 3.3 CD $40 or for Europe EUR 45
There is a new Tshirt: 3.3 Tshirt $20 or for Europe EUR 20
The new 3.3 poster is very nice too, get it for $10 US or EUR 14 in Europe
If you prefer OpenSSH, have a look at this new Tshirt OpenSSH 2 $20 or for Europe EUR 20
thank you.
Wouldn't suprize me if the slashdotting has no impact at all on their downloads.
oh right: complain about lack of SMP. I prefer to have the basics covered--like security. After getting my redhat system taken over I like the fact that it's so much easier to secure an openBSD. The question is not for openBSD--why don't you have this feature, but the question is for the other OS--why are you *still* not secure! Why do I still get email because a virus has attacked your system, etc.
Had some problems with development tools on OpenBSD because of the ancient bintils.
Good thing this guy is anonymous, otherwise, who knows what funding of that guy would be revoked.
Canadians. They always get themselves kicked in the butt --and they never learn.
No. I am not assuming that the poster is Canadian. I am talking about the OpenBSD guy who shot himself in the foot, just like others, also from Canada who spouted nonsense about the US.
As someone who is currently ditching redhat for openbsd, I don't care for rc.conf at all.
However, I am certainly looking forward to not upgrading my kernel/glibc every three months. My complaints are mostly cosmetic.
Since you have never studied operating systems, you will probably not understand this. Still, I will give you what you ask for. The NT Security FAQ contains large amounts of information on the Windows security model.
As for the effectiveness of the security model, look at the number of Windows exploits that were along the lines of, "To get this task done I had to give him that level of access, which he used to screw up all sorts of things." I assure you it is less prevalent than on UNIX systems, precisely because of the better security model in Windows.
Of course, you won't find that on bugtraq. They don't report problems with the security model unless they are due to clear bugs in the security protocols. So you can't make the comparison without research, which obviously isn't your strong point.
As far as root exploits go, a well secured Windows system doesn't even have a root user or equivalent. Can you understand that, smug in your little UNIX world? So in that sense Windows can be made to have no potential root exploits. Not that it matters if you have a bug that allows you to gain arbitrary priveliges.
I guess my real point is that you shouldn't spout off ignorant drivel when you don't know what you're talking about. You should keep quiet, or learn about the subject. I suppose that is too much to ask, though.
Its intended target is secure network services, not as a workstation.
Trying to shoehorn it into that mode would defeat the whole idea of it being secure, as 'un-ceritifed' apps would break that faster then you can blink....
If you want a BSD desktop, go FBSD.. and keep OBSD on your server/firewall/etc where it belongs.....
---- Booth was a patriot ----
The following is a blatant troll ;-)
What do you mean, documentation? With Red Hat, I don't need to read any documentation to set up and run most of the system. And that is the way it should be.
actually it's openssh - and that's a whole 'nother ball of goo ..
.. probably why the stuffed shirts in Washington took them at first.
..
.. nobody can be totally objective
I've always found the puffy blowfish to be an oddly appropriate mascot for OpenBS - bloated, prickly whiners full of nothing really substantial inside but hot air
"no remote security hole in the default install"? spin, spin, spin
DARPA cut their funding for the Canadian "hackathon hotel"? get over it - the US Government invested in an effective think-tank and didn't like some of how they chose to think
Nope, it's correct. He still does not know that he's gay, that's why I said "don't" instead of "didn't".
Disclaimer: I'm not associated with either the PaX or OpenBSD team in any way, and speak for neither organisation.
It's possible to play various tricks as a TCP receiver to get a server to send you data as fast as you want. Instead of just prioritizing ACKs, if you split ACKs, send duplicate ACKs, or send ACKs for data you haven't gotten yet, the server will think the connection is great and increase the send window. The details are here.
If you're installing from CD, OpenBSD 3.3 did not contain sendmail 8.12.9. Correct me if I'm wrong but this was fixed in 3.3-current but didn't make it onto the CDs (?). Older sendmail-based servers should use patches 014, 027. See: www.sendmail.org/patchps.html
http://tinyurl.com/4ny52
+5 informative? Slahbotting groupthink. I would like all the "moderaters" to try and verify gomer pile's claim here. That JVM is anything but productoin quality. Yes the slashboting public just takes his java -version as gospel.
This may have been a response to the troll, but this guy is far more misleading than the troll was. Anyone who works with Java knows that this JVM he simply versions is unuseable in production.
+5, "You said what the groupthinking Slashbots wanted to hear"
FreeBSD is at 5.0, and Suse Linux is up to 8.2. Why is OpenBSD so far behind everyone else? I'm going to go with Windows, they're way out in front of everyone with their version 2003.
"Sun didnt commercialize FreeBSD"
= 5854446
I already answered this above. Look here...
http://bsd.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=62658&cid
Imagine a Beowolf Cluster of THESE!!!
Yes it is the same ProPolice. Since OpenBSD integrated it into their system, many problems and bugs have been worked out (until OpenBSD glommered onto it, it hadn't been widely used). So with a little luck, it should now slip fairly smoothly into the trusted Debian distro. There is a performance penalty (I believe I've read 10% for OpenBSD), but such is life....
The next major OS release from Sun was to be SunOS 5. Then they got a little marketing-happy and decided to rename their OS Solaris. They said SunOS 4.n == Solaris 1.n, and the new! improved! OS would be Solaris 2.n, and SunOS 5.n == Solaris 2.n. Running uname -a on my Solaris 2.8 box,
SunOS rhonadler 5.8 Generic_108528-08 sun4u sparc SUNW,UltraAX-i2
(And then the Solaris 2.8 == Solaris 8 madness.)
So SunOS is Real Unix (TM) -- whatever that counts for these days. SunOS 4.x is the "Real" BSD, a direct descendant of the Berkeley CSRG's "4.n BSD" on the VAX-11, and has no connection to any of the free BSDs.
So yes, Ballmer doesn't know shit about Unix, but we already knew that.
Unlimited growth == Cancer.
i think theo is a cuntcaskety mediocritomaton.
Well, having access to both SunOS 4.1.4, I have the CD right here and a Sun 4C (SUNW,Sun 4/75, CY7C601 @ 40 MHz, L64814 FPU) machine with it on there, and I have used FreeBSD extensively since 2.2.x. They are "of the same heritage" but vastly different.
:o]
Also, Please not that Since Solaris 1.x, Sun has done everything in its power undermine BSD in favor of System V. While Sun did commercial BSD in way, I would strongly point out that the Sun kernel is far more capable in terms of scalability and probably shares nothing with FreeBSD, and that that Solaris is very very much its own development target. About all you can say is that FreeBSD and SunOS 4.1.4/Solaris 1.x are coherent in some ways.
You never thought I would have a Sun 4/75 and SunOS 4.1.4 right at my fingertips, did you ?
That doesn't mean Solaris 1/Sun OS 4 and Open/Net/FreeBSD has the same code base. They may be coherent, but they do not have the same code base. Period. If it was that simple, why did sun have SMP support years ahead of any of the BSDs? Oh, that would mean the kernel is different. Doesn't sound like a rip off of BSD anymore does it? Also, now that you implement SMP in the kernel, you have to go make the entire c library and userland SMP sane. Oh, and you have to write you own compiler as sun did. They may have been coherent, certainly not after Solaris 2.x/sunos 5 came around, but this insinuation that they are somehow the "same" is simply not correct. You may know how to use Google but you are drawing incorrect conclusions. Cutler spearheaded VMS for DEC, then NT for MSFT, they are similar, but you can't say NT is VMS. (It would be wrong to insult VMS that way, and VMS was a production system by the late 1970's.)
i couldnt listen to that stupid, fat sweaty protege of hitler for more than 5 muinutes without wanting to kill him.
he isnt even a capitalist, the fucker is a fascist peice of human detritus.
While a blatent troll, I think the score on this
one should be upgraded on account that it's funny,
since this is Mike Smiths resignation post from
FreeBSD which some luser reposted doing s/Free/Open/g
OpenBSD being about rules and committees and milestones and deliverables? heh heh heh heh,
that's a fscking hoot. Elections? In OpenBSD?
"Democracy? Hah! We're living in a Bleeding Dictatorship!"
...is the penguin skeleton in the cover art. Subtle.
....Thanks. Might check it out. Um... who's the tool that moderates a simple question flamebait?
Because a person who is interested in Linux would also be interested in BSD... Linux/Unix - whats not to understand
W^X support, which I assume the original poster was suggesting would cause problems with dynamic recompilation, was only introduced shortly before OpenBSD 3.3.
Posting output from a 3.0 box doesn't really demonstrate much, then. Proving that Java works without W^X support in the kernel is one thing; proving that it works with it is another.
I hate you all, even more than America.
(This is of course a bug in the application, not the system, but I though I'd mention it.)
And applications are in the OpenBSD "Base Install".
Which means the base install might very likely have some bugs, which is unacceptable.
I think one of the great appeals of OpenBSD is a very strong preference for known good as the target, rather then "good enough because it is so unlikely to happen".
Or has it already?
you should put a rating on some of the things you do. i'll give you a 10 out of 10 for being a complete fuckwit.
get a life, tourette's boy.
fuck, piss, fag, fag. wohoooo!
yeah, on the other hand, you've got so much to say...
I think you're under the mistaken impression that someone, anyone, gives a damn about what you think.
YHBTYHLHAND - struck a chord with you, you are so easy to troll.
yhbtyhlhand. you are fuming. you cant control yourself, you are now using a search feature of slashdot trying to created a backlash at a superior entity. little windows kiddie wingnut trying to prance around /. like a big dog. heh. heheh. hahahahaha. bwahahaha.
you realize this is just the thing i want you doing.
i give you a 0 for anything on any scale because thats what you are, a zero and a complete fucking loser.
look at your feverish typing, your basketcase replies. you fat sweaty ass sticking to your little computer chair.
get a girlfriend or a boyfriedn, loozaaa, so you can blow your wad in reality.
corked up trollbaited freak who cant do sheeeeeit
heh, who's the one using the search feature again?
Ive just completed a 3.2 -> 3.3 upgrade from source. Things went pretty smoothly.
/path/to/program/binary | grep stack_smash
:)
To test that your stack protection has been compiled into binarys, do this:
strings
You should a line like this this ( and perhaps others ):
__stack_smash_handler
Yay for OpenBSD
Right. You are such a low end digital janitor and its now painfully obvious. any claims of technical know how are totally subjugated by your retarded behavior.
I fucking wont the argument a long time ago. YOU digressed. You can't even have a technical argument. Now you will languish in this loop where your complete immaturity is DOCUMENTED.
So, mister I pity you, a mister waiting for me to say something. I did, case closed, know nothing.
And just to know, spoogeman, when I show these threads to friends, we piss ourselves laughing.
You should get an outside opinion, because if you did, you see yourself the buffoon, the jester, and that you are being completely manipulated.
Tah tah, automaton retard know nothing lying about credentials.
look at you
.net loving super microsoft "employee" master man, oh, well, then please continue.
checking your little homepage on slashdot, ~spongman.
you see a reply, you rush to defend you holy territory.
but you see, you have been trolled. you have lost, have a nice day.
this is all a troll's plan. i win technical arguments all the time. your digression fed the trollish nature of the parent, and now this continuing loop is you being manipulated, trolled.
if you cant see that mister super hacker programmer