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Mozilla's Joy Of Naming
An anonymous reader writes "Thought the Firebird naming conflict was over? Think again! (If you thought, "What naming conflict?", go to the back of the class and read Slashdot's, previous coverage.) MozillaZine has got an exclusive interview with Christopher Blizzard, mozilla.org staff member, Red Hat employee and author of the Mozilla branding strategy. It's one the first official statements from mozilla.org (Mitchell Baker published a letter that she sent to the Firebird database project admins a few days ago). As well as the interview, MozillaZine also takes a look at some of the more recent media coverage of the conflict, which is overwealmingly biased in favour of the Firebird database project (who still haven't adequately explained how it was different when they picked the same name as the older Firebird BBS). Compare and contrast with MozillaZine's interview of Ann Harrison of the Firebird database project."
Argh! There are so many links in that submission that my head is about to explo
"Sweet! FREE PUBLICITY!"
:)
I mean, not as popular as mysql, not as advanced as postgresql... they didn't have a whole lot going for them before this came up.
This really seems like slashback fodder, not something worth a new article. (The other slashback fodder I've seen around the net are statements that the iLoo was not a hoax but an actual MS project which had already been canned.)
Such a conflict is bad for the image of the open source community. Sadly, it has reached the stage where no one can back down because of bruised egos...And hence it'll be settled (if ever) after a lot of shenanigans.
Ok, I'm still proposing "Bob" for the name. And no, I'm not named Bob!
They should call it YellowDello
best web host ever
I'm sure it is greatly interesting to those involved, but to me this is rapidly approaching tabloid material...
Nothing's going to change. Nobody's going to back down. Further, it doesn't really matter.
You are a shining example of the great Amerikan society.
by ALEX BISHOP | Christopher Blizzard has been working with Mozilla since the source code was released. In this interview, the author of the Mozilla branding guidelines gives an insight into mozilla.org's position on the Firebird naming conflict.
How involved were you in the decision to rename Phoenix to Firebird?
I was involved as much as the rest of staff@mozilla.org was. That is, Asa gathered most of the suggestions for names. If you have a large list, you have to whittle it down to a few reasonable candidates and then get those cleared by trademark lawyers. That's what happened in this case. Asa came back to staff with a list of suggestions and we chose the one that made sense and cleared the legal hurdles. Firebird was the name we chose.
A recent CNET News.com article states that mozilla.org is backing down from using the Firebird name. How much truth is there in this claim?
We're still going to use the project name Mozilla Firebird, so the News.com article is false. I think that's pretty clear from our branding document. Just to be clear, Mozilla Firebird is going to be the name of the pre-releases that we're going of the-browser-formerly-known-as-Phoenix before it becomes our primary platform for delivery of the Mozilla platform. Once it's our mainline build it's going to be Mozilla Browser.
That being said, as long as the project exists the Firebird name will be in use, just like SeaMonkey is still in use. Note, though, that most people don't call our current browser SeaMonkey so you probably won't see it in wide use once that transition takes place.
To what extent was the branding strategy influenced by the complaints of the Firebird database community?
It wasn't, really. The branding strategy has been in the works since late last year, well before Phoenix was even on our radar. The only part of that document that was really affected by Firebird database folks was the careful use of "Mozilla Firebird" instead of just "Firebird" and the clear distinction of a "project" vs a "product". We've been talking about using "Mozilla Browser" or something similar for quite a while now.
Do you think that mozilla.org should have contacted the Firebird database project before announcing the new name?
Hindsight being 20/20, sure.
To be honest, though, I don't think that anyone on staff thought that they would care. There isn't room for confusion (I mean, who is going to confuse a database and a browser? I think my mom can tell the difference), there isn't any infringing use, and the name is in wide use outside of both of our projects, including previous use in the software realm. We're simply using a name that's been used over and over again in the past. We've been called all sorts of nasty names over the past few months, being accused of all kinds of malice and ill intent. I can assure you this is not the case. The reality is that if we're guilty of anything it's being a bit apathetic.
According to some reports, in the days immediately after the new name was announced, mozilla.org either ignored emails sent by Firebird database community or responded unhelpfully. Some have even suggested that this left the database project's leaders with little choice but to organise the mass emailing campaign. How did mozilla.org respond to these early messages and could a better reaction have avoided the large-scale protests?
If I remember correctly, they went from zero to mail bombing in less than 60 seconds. I don't remember there being very many, if any, cordial messages at the beginning and those were quickly lost in the cacophony of form letters and unreasonable demands. It's interesting to point out that our biggest problem at the beginning was telling who was in charge over there. We certainly couldn't tell from the incoming email.
I would also flip that question on its head. Would mozilla.org have responded better if they hadn't engaged in a mail bombin
In a shocking turn of events, Blizzard Entertainment, maker of popular game franchises Warcraft, Starcraft and Diablo, is charging Christoper Blizzard with trademark and DMCA violations. "Mr. Blizzard and his family were not authorized to use that last name" said a Blizzard executive who wished to remain anonymous. "We're suggesting he change his name to Christopher Snow, or Christopher Storm, something that won't confuse people."
Is anyone else reminded of the radical group from "A life of brian", or is it just me?
They should name these browsers after progressive rock songs. That'd give them a lot of geek cred (in my mind anyway). Come on, what could be cooler than using a browser called "Echoes"?
Note to M1-ers: a curt but otherwise insightful message is not "Flamebait" or "Troll".
They still don't.
I need some backup. FUCK!
Post some *BSD is Dying shit up in there, pronto!
Isn't this just going to cause confusion? Many people currently refer to the browser component of the 'Mozilla Application Suite' as the 'Mozilla browser' and changing the name of Firebird to 'Mozilla Browser' will just confuse things even worse than they already are.
w eek as a separate application.
People tend to think Mozilla='Mozilla Application Suite' and they tend to think of Phoenix/Firebird/Mozilla Browser/whatever-they're-calling-themselves-this-
I'm confused just talking about it.
as
My journal has hot
God it's disgusting how far we've devolved into this stupid little legalistic society where everybody is suing everybody else for the dumbest reasons. Oh yeah, like I'm going to confuse a Web browser with some old crappy database that nobody ever uses or an ugly-looking monstrosity Pontiac targeted at middle-aged bald men who want a car that "looks fast." Hello. It's just a name. Who cares?
You know, if people would put as much effort into technological innovation and development as they do into suing each other, who knows how far along technology might be right now? We're far too infatuated with lawsuits and lawyers and multi-million dollar settlements and not focused on actually making things work. Sad, really.
I think they should just let google decide:
Searched the web for firebird +database. Results 1 - 10 of about 35,000. Search took 0.06 seconds.
Searched the web for firebird +mozilla. Results 1 - 10 of about 9,380. Search took 0.11 seconds.
The Firebird database people should rename their project Phoenix.
Since these name (Firebird, Thunderbird, etc.) are only codenames from what i understand, why not drop the codenames and use the names that the final product is going to go buy: Mozilla Browser project and Mozilla Email project. Its impossible to recomend anyone to use a great product if the name changes twice a month!
My 2 cents
"All I can tell the "lesser of two evils" folks is that if they keep voting for evil, they'll keep getting evil."-Lp.org
Nevertheless, we do intend to change the name so that the browser now known as "Mozilla Firebird Browser" becomes the "Mozilla Browser."
Just pick another name. It's not that hard. They were there first.
Besides, Firebird is a really crap name, IMHO.
-- Even if a god did exist, why the fsck should I worship it?
Name it: "*BSD-is-Dyingbird"
Yep, and now I know them, and will make sure I never, ever use or recommend their product. Same as qmail - DJB's a prick, so I won't use it, even if it's better than the competition (and Postfix is just as good).
;)
I consider it voting for politeness with my SMTP banner.
ff33ssr (i've checked google and dns no one has taken that name yet and it has the added bonus of not being pronouncable)
Just call it 'Mozilla 2.0' and call it good.
There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.
- -
Are you an SF Fan? Are you a Tru-Fan?
Seriously, it's between a DB nobody knows and a trick browser few use (yes, I am one of those few).
But does it really warrant this kind of posting?
I mean look at all of the posts this far. TWO 'BSD is Dying' posts, for crying out loud.
And, of course, this classy rant...
The opposite of progress is congress
At my college, RIT, there have been changes to the names of things in the recent past. "Physical Plant," our janitorial service, became "FMS." A bunch of apartments called "Capstones" are now called "University Commons."
You know what? Everyone calls them "Physical Plant" and "Capstone."
Everyone I know still calls it "Phoenix." I still do.
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
Why doesn't Mozilla just codename it Project Trogdor? Yeah, it's more dragon-y than phoenix-y, but it's also hella cool.
And I'm doubting that the Brothers Chaps would say no if the Mozilla people asked them nicely. More publicity both ways.
"And all was laid to burnination..."
Rich, literary goodness!
EI: Explorer of Internet.
Enig? Det alt for hot det smor!
Mozilla should just use 'Firebird Trans Am' instead.
Then we would all think of Burt Reynolds when searching our favorite web pages. And, it would go well next to my Camino.
To further confuse the issue, Firebird is a model (or line?) of communications test equipment (BER analyzers/impairment simulators, etc.)
;
Not to mention a made-to-be-wrecked car from GM.
-- You are in a maze of little, twisty passages, all different... --
You know, one hears all sorts of complaints about media bias -- too leftist, too rightist -- but I never thought I'd hear "overwealmingly [sic] biased in favor of Firebird".
At any rate, how hard is it to pick a new freaking name? Like there's a shortage of mystical animals? Start up a game of Angband and charge downwards until you hit a good-sounding creature. I'd suggest a high-elf warrior for maximimum speed of descent. Just watch out for hounds, and that annoying family of dwarves that resists everything and touches to disenchant!
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Just makes the Mozilla group look like a bunch of morons if they cant even find a name for their product. This will go down a treat with CTO's considering switching away from IE. The mozilla guys really need to start acting like grown ups here and get this sorted. Far from being a flagship open source product they are rapidly deteriorating into a farce
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Actually, I'm Canadian.
Man after bnetd you would think those Warcraft guys would be all over him.
"Let me put it to you another way - who gives a flying fuck, hockeypuck?!"
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
My general approach when looking for a name is to Google all possibilities until I find one that returns 0 hits. If it isn't in Google then it doesn't exist - so is safe to use. Until I wrote this message 'Phyerburd' would have been an example. It's also interesting in that then any time you searh for that word you can be pretty sure that most the hits in Google relate to your use of the word. An easy indicator to watch your growth by.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
... since the browser is *so* much newer (years vs weeks) and it is quickly catching up in mindshare, obviously picking the name wasn't really a big conflict.
--- I do not moderate.
time spent bitching, in either or any camp, is time not spent coding, fixing bugs, writing documentation, or otherwise helping the success of the projects in specific or the community as a whole. everybody loses when you bitch, so grow the fuck up and get to work if you care about things outside of your own ego.
That is all, you may now return to your regularly scheduled flamewar.
Fuckhead
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Ann Harrison explicitly say she was trying to milk this opportunity for free publicity?
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
Seeing that the Chimera project (Mozilla/Cocoa for OSX) had to change it's name to "Camino"; I would hazzard a guess that the Mozilla team is targeting gas-guzzling sports cars for new monikers, rather than fowl. Maybe they should name the next version of Mozilla Corvette?
The wheel is turning, but the hamster is dead.
Hahahahaha. That hit my G-spot. Thanks!
I'll just grep my old post and add in Firebird with Phoenix.
Please, everyone keep in mind that the naming situation wouldn't have been nearly as bad if the Phoenix and FirebirdSQL people hadn't made such a big deal in the first place.
The big, bloated, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink Mozilla that you download from mozilla.org is called Seamonkey.
However, nobody ever refers to it as Seamonkey - it's just Mozilla. Phoenix/Firebird was just being referred to directly as Phoenix/Firebird until Seamonkey could be retired and the rest of the developers could move over to the new codebase (which is due to happen in the next ). At that point it would've been "Mozilla Browser" and "Mozilla Mail & News" again (as far as we end-users are concerned).
If Phoenix and FirebirdSQL hadn't flipped out and had just waited a few months the "Phoenix/Firebird Browser" would probably have been forgotten.
Not only is DJB a prick, but his code is crazy. Check it out some time. It's dizzying.
they stopped refereing to their browser as "Firebird (TM)" and now call it exclusively "Mozilla Firebird Browser" ... if there is anyone left who is confused by that they really have bigger problems to worry about than this pathetic little dispute.
mozilla have made great efforts at meeting the SQL people in the middle... i'm just not seeing the SQL people recipricating.
tasty electronic music vittles
_________________ /
/ Mozilla's shit! \
\ Use Konqueror!
-----------------
\ ^__^
\ (oo)\_______
(__)\ )\/\
||----w |
|| ||
I'm correcting you... you are wrong.
When the Firebird database chose the name for its project, the people from the similarly named Firebird BBS did not complain or object.
When the Firebird browser project took its name, people from the Firebird database project did complain. Argue the case either way, but that is the difference. It's not rocket science.
Some people have accused mozilla.org of having an arrogant and dismissive attitude towards the Firebird database community. What is your response to these allegations?
That it's an excellent example of argumentum ad hominem.
Err ... That isn't the same thing as denying that you've been arrogant and dismissive, Mr. Blizzard. Only that, if you have, it's not relevant to the argument. So ... is that it? You've been arrogant and dismissive but so what, that's not the point? Your answer seems to have confirmed that allegation, if not only by its logical content, then also by its curt nature.
If this kind of spamming represents the *BSD community then I for one will watch it die with a smile on my face.
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
firebird/thunderbird is going to REPLACE the current suite.
phoenix/firebird/whatever = "the web broswer" ....
/ignore.
email client = "the email client"
and so on
It will solve all the problems and then they need to take the attitude of telling everyone else to bugger off and be rude about it.
There's one thing about being a nice guy... but when things get plain silly, you need to flip the other person/group the bird and put them on
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
This got modded up Insightful! All you mods who marked it Overrated suck and are smoking teh cheap $2 cr4ck. WHy? I'll tell j00 why. PINK FLOYD R00LZ, that's WHY!
Count the number of users of each product and let that decide:
Mozilla Firebird: 3,000,000
Firebird SQL: 3
Hmm, 1,000,000 to 1 user ratio.
there needs to be clear distinctions in bugzilla between the current mozilla browser and the future Mozilla Browser... hence the name Firebird (equevielent to Seamonkey now)
tasty electronic music vittles
NOBODY would use that for a project name...
Wait, I'm going to use it ;)
"I can't give you a brain, so I'll give you a diploma" - The Great Oz (blatently stolen sig)
How old is Christopher Blizzard?
" I would also flip that question on its head. Would mozilla.org have responded better if they hadn't engaged in a mail bombing campaign? I know we would have. But what's done is done."
So, we blame the other guy. If they had acted nicer we wouldn't have been such wankers ourselves. Nice justification.
No wonder Apple went with khtml. I can imagine what it was like dealing with your team.
i love how they keep trying to claim some moral ground when all they've done is bitch and whine their way into the limelight... thank god we can use the "Whine Free" MySql or Postgresql :)
Okay, Firebird is such a generic name. When are people going to just get with some common sense and realize that with a limited number of words in any language, some stuff is going to get reused. Especially things that are common, like Fire and Bird. When are people just going to get over it and realize that trademarks can be as bad as patents and copyright?
that's the mozilla people though. everyone already knows who mozilla.org is....
firebird database? now that's a different story.
*** For a better tommorow, change your life today ***
Argh! There are so many links in that submission that my head is about to explo
... Take a look at the articles - More links! They're trying to reverse-slashdot the people who actually read the articles!
Free Publicity, and everyone looks stupid.
Please, someone correct me if I am wrong.
First Mozilla.org changed the name from Phoenix to Firebird because Phoenix BIOS was annoyed (afraid someone could mistakenly buy a web browser instead of a BIOS chip).
Now, they realized that the name was already in use by another open source project but they have no intention to get back.
Is this correct ?
MOD THE CHILD UP!
For the rubber-monster challenged, here's a picure for your reference and edification.
"Stop whining!" - Arnold, as Mr. Kimble
So let me get this straight: It is okay for the FirebirdSQL team to pick the same name as was chosen by the Firebird BBS developers, but it is 'unprofessional' and 'sploiled' of the Mozilla project to choose the name Firebird because the Firebird SQL project had choosen it first? Gotta love that logic...
http://www.archive.org/details/ThePowerOfNightmares
-Are you the Judean People's Front?
...We're the People's Front of Judea!
-FUCK OFF!
Seriously though...who cares? No one will ever know the different except Slashdot readers and open source activists. No one else will ever hear of these "codenames." They will still call Phoenix/Firebird/Whateverthefuck - Mozilla.
http://www.annapmicro.com/firebird_pci.html
they want thier name back! Seriously, this is lame. There are many bobs and teds and jesuss and mohamads and we manage to know which one we're talking about. why the fighting in corporate land?
because I have been enjoined by this Holy Office to abandon the false opinion which maintains that the Sun is the centre
Dear Namer,
f ide
Here are my suggestions to replace "Firebird":
Trojan
Sheik
LifeStyles
Durex
Kameleon
Con
Contempo
Kimono
Reality
Magnum
Stay protected,
Rupert
It's now a hate crime to badmouth Mozilla!
Soon I am going to register on Sourforge, Savannah and other project hosting sites several new projects:
- Mozilla Web server based on fork of newcoming Zope-3;
- Mozilla Linux distro based on mix of Gentoo and ArchLinux;
- Mozilla language, Haskell in a syntax of Lisp's S-exps;
- and finally - Mozilla database based on fork of Firebird Database, just for fun
:)
I am very comfortable that using such good and self-expressive name as Mozilla I can quickly gather very good developers and rapidly develop the code that will take over the worldAs for Mozilla Browser, well, we may develop such on new Mozilla language, specially to browse Mozilla database. That's what are browsers for anyway, right?
Less is more !
Troll? An honest question. Does anyone outside of the affected parties actually care?
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
I have lost a lot of respect for the Mozilla leadership because of this dispute. The database folks had the name first, and it's not as if picking another name will cause "branding" issues... 99% of users don't call it "Mozilla Firebird" and so nobody will care if another name is picked. It's not like Mozilla.org invested in a million-dollar ad campaign with the name Firebird.
The mature thing to do would be for the Mozilla folks to back off, and pick another name. The legalities of it are largely irrelevant - this kind of dispute is bad for the community, and it reflects very poorly on all involved with the Mozilla side of things. These guys are making some abusive corporations look nice and friendly right now, and it disgusts me.
"Wow, you're like some kind of superhero able to ward off happiness and success at every turn."
-- Ryan Stiles
Change the name of pheonix from firebird to:
earthbird,
lightningbird,
rainbird,
windbird,
or my personal nickname for pheonix:
zinjanthropus... (nut cracker man)... right...
My inner self is ineffable, so don't eff with me.
Everybody knows that browsers are named after cars.
Explorer = Ford Explorer
Navigator = Lincoln Navigator
Safari = GMC Safari
Or maybe it's the other way around.
ThunderCougarFalconBird
I can see the Firebird people getting upset about Mozilla's hijacking of the name, but FirebirdSQL is just taking the piss.
Or did you make that name up?
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Firebird is well known, I don't know what you're talking about. Just because you don't know about it does not mean everyone in the wordl doesn't. I take it you never heard of InterBase either. If you did then you'd know about Freebird. No shush.
Is nobody moderating this thread? Ha! That means the trolls have taken over! ENJOY TROLLING WEDNESDAY, FAGOTS!
I'm the pride of the peaches.
Don't mod me down! I didn't even use my karma bonus for this one! =p
GeekNights!
Late Night Radio for Geeks!
"Nomad". You know, a wanderer. No, wait that's taken.
"FetchIt". As in go get it. Damn that's taken too.
"Carnivore". That's never had any bad press. And the icon looks like something out of Jurassic Park anyway.
"Charlie". Everybody knows a guy named Charlie, and they're usually good guys. Oh, wait, that damn conflict a few decades ago. Forget it.
yeah, it's publicity. in fact, ann -did- say it was publicity: because they figured this had happened by accident, because, as you pointed out, they're not popular ... and no-one would be careful not to name their project 'firebird'.
... i'd like to see your qualification of that. i've come across talks by (of all people) microsoft, where interbase/firebird (same thing, except firebird is open-source, free, and not stinky) is listed right along with oracle, db2, sybase, etc. (and you won't find any mention of mysql or postgresql there.)
... fifteen years? a little more? it's quite full-featured, growing constantly, and currently undergoing a C to C++ conversion so adding features will be even faster in the near future.
... but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.) so instead, from now on, with the slashdot crowd, firebird will be known as "that evil database project that tried to keep mozilla from using its name!" ...
... work on firebird now. you can thank ann and jim for the work that brought you a fully-capable database without the bloat of oracle.)
however, as to the postgresql part
interbase has been around for, what
if it hadn't been for this stink over naming, firebird would have stood a good chance of publicizing their milestone releases (1.5 and 2.0) through slashdot. in fact, there might have been a lot more people picking it up and saying "hey, cool!"
maybe interbase stands a chance (not really -- all the original coders who made interbase possible
and yes, i -am- proud to use firebird in a production environment. it's fast, it's solid, and it does everything (almost -- i've got a few feature requests in) i want it to do. check it out! (and call it whatever you like!)
Wait, you're telling me there's also something called "FirebirdSQL" now? As well as the database package Firebird and Mozilla's unfortunately named Firebird?
As far as I can tell from the (extremely convoluted) info in the links, the "Firebird Database Project" and "FirebirdSQL" are the same thing.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
... and this is even a better way to reach their goal. To quote Mitchell Baker:
Mozilla 2.0, completely new and improved - not what you once knew as Mozilla 1.4 or whatever.
zWhat would an EWOULDBLOCK block, if an EWOULDBLOCK could block would? -- me
Then why don't they call it Conflagrationbird
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
I think we all agree the name has to reflect the nature of the code being "resurrected" from the ashes of the old project. So, here's some of my suggestions:
Jesus
Lazarus
Jean Grey
Saddam Hussein (how many times has this guy come back from the dead now?)
Dick Clark
To most people, "Mozilla" is just the open-source version of Netscape's browser. When Phoenix is released in a non-alpha version, it'll be the browser, so it'll be "Mozilla." The fact that the internal framework has changed doesn't really matter.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
OK Basilisk (also known as the Jesus Christ lizard because of it's ability to run on water) is taken -- but how about Cursoris? Eudibamus cursoris was possibly the first creature to walk on two legs (and the fastest in it's class because of it).
OS Software is like love: The best way to make it grow is to give it away.
You know, I hate to be the one to point this out, but "Firebird" is a damn stupid name for either a browser or a database, especially considering the implication that both products rose from the ashes of other products that were abandoned by their original developers when they ceased to be competitive.
As a database name, it's especially stupid. What's the phoenix symbolism here? "Hey, try our database! All your data will crash and burn periodically, but you'll be able to recover it." C'mon, even freaking IBM can come up with better marketing themes. At least when you hear the name of their product, DB2, you know it's a database.
The same argument could be applied to the browser, though. Or indeed to most browsers. If you're not already aware of the product, what do names like Firebird, Mozilla, and Opera mean to you? Nothing. Look at MS product names: Internet Explorer, Word, Publisher, Flight Simulator. Bigod, the product name tells you what the product is. (Of course, on the other hand, you have Excel, Access, and Bob.)
Instead of squabbling over an uninformative name that has an uninspiring thudding cadence and making the Open Source world look like a bunch of petty jerks, how about the Firebird people and the other Firebird people go back to their corners and choose new names as if their choice of names actually matters.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
since that is the plan
There's a perfectly good precedent for settling this sort of dispute.
Remember when Carl Sagan complained about the Apple project codenamed "Sagan"?
Why not change the codename to Butthead DB?
I've said this before...
W3C cames up with XForms - The Next Generation of Web Forms in 2002, but XForms - a GUI toolkit for X has existed for a long time (initially here).
Okay.
I still don't understand this.
Why is this such a big deal? There can't be a browser and a database with the same name?
Is this some sort of intellectual property argument? Doesn't this sort of go against the "spirit" of the OS community?
With all of these name conflict why don't they go with maybe the same meaning of Firebird and Phoenix but maybe in another language, where they can be more creative and have a lesser chance of coming up with name conflicts?
Maybe go with Quenya (Middle-Earth Language, from Lord of the Rings/Tolkien)
Pardon my poor quenya but i pulled the following together from word stems of bird and fire from this English-Quenya dictionary (RTF file)
Naraiwe in quenya which if i got it correctly is firebird/phoenix. It has the meaning, certainly sounds cool and i doubt there some other project out there using this name.
Ok so searching google shows up some guy with naraiwe as his nickname, well he's not a project!!
My point stands :)
.... ... }
int main (void) {
There's no rule that says you have to add features with every release.
But there is a rule that a major version number change means a major backend API change. See Asa's comment.
-Malloc
___________________ I want to be free()!
Perhaps you missed every single news report that mentioned they're calling it Mozilla BROWSER (instead of Mozilla Firebird, like they were going to)? Go away, come back when you can spell.
Perhaps it's time to head over to ipetitions.com and collect signatures of like-minded people. (I'll sign it in a heartbeat.)
Been mildly amused with this name thing, but it's sort of hard to run a major change past the suits when you can't even describe it without jumping through hoops. "Hey Mr. Boss! Check this out, a new browser, it's called mozillafirebirdseamonkey! But wait, there's more! It's got email too!, and it's named... aww rats, I forget, let me check on slashdot, get right back to ya".
Mozilla browser, number/version was good enough, the rest is eye and ear candy for no useful purpose. Sometimes it's better to just withdraw, regroup, accept perhaps that was a name forking that wasn't even remotely necessary in the first place. It's a total waste of time. Mozilla browser and mozilla email is "good enough", not confusing, no copyright hassles, etc. People who use it can differentiate 1.4a, 1.4b, etc, it's just really not that hard to do, some string of names in front of it though beyond "mozilla" is creating problems where none existed. It was a mistake, best idea is just stop doing that.
What is happening now reminds me of someone driving, seeing the gas gauge almost on empty, so then driving real fast to find the gas station before they run out. It's silly. Enough with name wars and confusion, just drop them all except for "mozilla" and be done with it.
That's my completely irrelevant opinion as just a browser user.
Just make them flip a coin. The winner keeps firebird. The loser gets called thundercougerfalconbird.
I'm trying to teach myself to set people on fire with my mind... Is it hot in here?
We'll still like it even if it's called Mini-Moz.
Just don't call it Usher.
That can't be prog rock...the longest song on that album is barely four minutes long!s dfjsdf123489uiopsdkp\fj90adj9jy890sASDSDJIOJIOASDI O JJ dfssdfaklsdfal poo qwerrty lets type some fake words at random to bypass the lameass filter. malda is a tard malda is gh3y
Note: this line of text has only been added because the retarded lameass filter thought it looked like ASCII art. Great going, Malda, you fucking nullo feggit. Blah blah blah. sdafjkdjsfjkadskjsdfjasdfsdfsdhjasjlakssdfsdhsdfk
There seems to be a consensus the browser should be called "Phoenix". Rather than spell it out alphabetically why not use the L33T spelling such as:
Ph03NiXX
I think this is distinguishing enough that no confusion should occur.
Feenix?
= No fee, plus phonetically flipping the bird.
pure AI will always Sublime
...why not use something else like, 'GreggaryPeccary' or 'HotRats' or 'Matrix' or 'Neo' or 'Morpheus' or 'Gollum' or 'Internet Exploder' or 'Internet Exploiter' ...
What's really weird in all of this is, FirebirdSQL isn't calling Mozilla on the carpet over a registered trademark. They have never tried to register their trademark, they simply "own" (no, sorry, to properly quote them, it's "OWN") the name because they have been using it. This is entirely possible; IANAL. However, the rub is, if they had not previously noted that it was a trademark, and hadn't registered it, how on earth was anyone to know that it *was* a trademark before using the name?
When I'm at home, and don't have WebSense telling me that the Wayback Machine falls under the forbidden category of "proxy evasion," I'll see what firebirdsql.org has previously said about their "trademark." If they never called it a trademark until AOL/Time Warner did, I cry foul. If they did, though, then a Google search should have told the AOL lawyers this was a bad idea.
Don't you wish your girlfriend was a geek like me?
oh wait, i suppose Al Gore would file suit that they stole the name of his invention. oh well.
"You want a toe? I can get you a toe by three o'clock... with nail polish."
"interbase has been around for, what ... fifteen years?"
So? DOS has been around even longer but you don't see Microsoft objecting people to use it as an acronym for 'Denial of Service' attacks?
Furthermore, just because you use to use Firebird you seemed to believe it has a chance. I too am in the datawarehousing team here and I don't think anyone here knows of FireBird SQL. (FYI, we use Oracle, MS SQL Server, and MySQL.)
Condensed version of events:
I think the Church of the Subgenius might have an issue with that. Would naming a mere browser "Bob" be some sort of blasphemy?
philcrissman.com.
People could better spend their time thinking about features, coding etc.. than worrying about a name. It's not like the average "Gold CD" Windows user know what it is anyway.
(Gold CD meaning a install that has never been patched, bug fixed etc..)
I think this should be a lesson for those releasing projects in the future. It used to be that a search for "Phoenix" on Google would turn up the Phoenix webpage as its first match. "Firebird" matches all sorts of stuff, but (last I checked), none of them were the web browser. Over time, this will hopefully change, but the point is that name changes after a project gets popular are a bad thing.
Obviously there wasn't much choice when PhoenixBIOS's lawyers got involved, but I really wish people could see that not everything in the world needs a unique name. When someone introduces themselves as Matt, I don't get confused and refuse to talk to them because of a name conflict. (Since it's also my name.) Similarly, if asked to trim the bushes, I don't show up at the White House with hedge trimmers.
Similarly, if someone asks "What browser do you use?", and I reply "Phoenix," they're not going to get confused and think I'm talking about my BIOS. (Nor will they think I've captured a bird and am using it.)
Again, I realize that the developers in this case really had no choice, but I think it's pretty sad when lawyers decide the people don't know the difference between a bird, a web browser, and a database.
________________________________________________
suwain_2
Duh, make that the PNH Toolbar.
:)
It still kicks ass though, esp. the layout tools tab, I particularly love the "disable styles" option, and the ability to quickly outline block elements (very useful when coding CSS)
This whole nightmare could have been avoided if at least one of two groups of nominally intelligent people--the database group and the browser group--had the small amount of creativity necessary to think of a name that is not utterly juvenile. "Firebird" sounds like a Transformer or a He-Man villain. This is a joke, right?
I would like to ask my fellow Mozilla Project members, what the hell are we fighting this battle for? Let them have that dippy name. Plenty of good names were suggested to replace Phoenix. How about picking one?
Finally, a note to Mozilla's legal counsel. Please do some good research and give some good advice next time, so sh&7storms like this can be avoided.
I have long wondered why they don't give Phoenix/Firebird a name befitting it's position.
Firebird? What does that have to do with Mozilla?
I still think they should just change the name to "Zilla." That way, people can know that if Zilla is to lean for them, they can get Mo' Zilla.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
You write that as if there's actually a difference.
The presence of a rat is well regarded in Japan, it is the sign of a good harvest.
OH THE SHAME I fell off the wagon and use sigs again!
The fact that these two different products are software is imho not an issue.
I don't want knowledge. I want certainty. - Law, David Bowie
vlad@geekizoid.com
In all honesty, I'm quite curious why Mozilla just didn't rename Phoenix straight to Thunderbird. Since the Thunderbird mail client is now known as Minotaur, what was wrong with abandoning Thunderbird. I realize the infringement potential with the car company, but I doubt they'd squak much; as it's a browser versus a car.
"not as advanced as postgresql" hmm...
The feature sets of Firebird and Postgresql differ, they are used for different purposes.
Pretending to be Oracle, does not make you more "advanced".
http://jesus.everdense.com/
Things are FINALLY MOVING FORWARD so please, give it a rest and let them get on with it - the last thing they need is a ton of ill-informed Slashdot zealots trying to fan the flames back up and keep this unfortunate incident going.
By moving forward, do you mean "threatening with litigation?"
(6. "...Trademark ownership thus means nothing if you are not prepared to send lawyers after any violator. It provides a legal framework for resolution in the event that the owner resorts to legal action, but nothing more. In reality, it provides a mechanism to scare the violator into mending his ways; and to provide for monetary compensation for damages and costs.")
the point was that it's not a new-comer, experimental, this-is-my-phd thesis database system. it's not abandoned, and its development is still going strong.
... transaction support is practically optional (most data warehouses aren't one at the same with the online oft-updated production database.)
... there'd be no room for debate. it had to happen -now- to avoid future problems.
and yes, someone -does- know firebird. now you do.
as to datawarehousing, however, the dominant technique (star) isn't really a relational technique -- it's an optimization via older, hierarchical methods. as such, i wouldn't recommend directly using a database designed for normal relational operations -- in fact, i -would- recommend something like mysql: designed for speed over simple operations
as to the naming (you'll notice i was kind enough not to say anything about that?) you should realize that, as a trademark, the name must be defended, or it will be diluted. if 'firebird' were going to be anything more than an internal code-name for a particular version of the mozilla browser product, you'd have a serious problem coming: firebird's name would be taken over by a more popular product, such that eventually, someone would inevitably claim that the database project had stolen the browser's name. impossible, you claim? if the mozilla team is so attached to the name now, imagine how it'd be a year or two down the line when questions were asked
the firebird team is working just to have their own little corner. they're not good at advertising themselves, but the least the rest of us can do is leave them alone. you don't like it? fine, don't use it. but you don't name your projects in such a way as to make it even harder for others to gain recognition -- say, naming your popular [x] software "mysql" when at a time when it's still a fledgling project. (they, however, are really quite good at advertising.)
and 'denial of service' isn't a product name, now is it?
Great comment. Score = 4 is the reason why /. moderation sucks.
Pontiac sues the crap outta the database folks for TM violation. Im pretty DAMN sure Pontiac was building Firebirds before a lotta of the anal fucks at FirbirdSQL were even born....
My god people next thing you know Radio Shack will 'think' their losing business Auto Shac....er......Zone....
You think you can explain the difference in database and a browser to a judge!!?!?! I think not.
Just rename it to Nike. I'm sure they wouldn't mind.
Personally I think Firebird should've made efforts to legally define their trademark long ago (even though they've been trading as "Firebird" unimpinged for the past few years, which may also establish it, and also assuming that a court would see fit to grant it), then perhaps this whole incident would never have got as far as it did. But then I should've registered sex.com long ago too; hindsight is 20/20. Nevermind, I'll just forge a letter and send it to Network Solutions
Not trying to flame here, but to play the devil's advocate.... who has a BBS anymore?
I ran one myself, back in the day... A multiline Renegade system. Telnet access and an internet email account... that was hot shit back in 96. I still find that email address when I google for my name. And you know what? The BBS's heyday has past. The sun has set, etc, so forth.
And further, Firebird BBS is - as far as I can tell - is a Chinese-centered thing. Now I'm not saying Chinese people don't search on google but for the masses that are looking for a database program and come across chinese characters in a google search... they skip right over without a thought. If the firebird bbs results were in English that may be a tad different, but honestly - that's hardly on the same level as 'Zilla and this IB outfit.
Find a way to tie the Mozilla product to the database product and live happily-everafter.
Hell, it works for Microsoft.
Qvacks!
The real problem with Mozilla is that they are going from one extreme to another. The current "Mozilla" is a monolithic, complex app whose performance can be less than ideal on older systems.
Now instead of simply splitting off the mail/newgroup reader from the browser, html editing and chat apps, the Mozilla team has decided to produce a mail client and a stripped-down browser missing most of the really cool features of Mozilla.
Features that are disabled by default == features that will never be used.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Why did Mozilla need to change the codename from Seamonkey in the first place? Let's just pretend this Firebird thing never happened and go back to calling the "under development" versions Seamonkey and call the release "Mozilla Browser" or "Mozilla Navigator".
. They ARE aware of the Firebird database project, but collectively (between about ten to twenty of them) "can't see any naming conflict"
You make it seem like amateurs decided. What about the highly-paid Intellectual Property attorneys from AOL Time Warner? They approved it too.
s/features/bugs/
Remember, after 1.4 Firebird will be the standard 'browser' for Mozilla. The all-encompassing front-end you know and hate will fade away and separate apps for each purpose (browser, mail, chat, layout, text editing, etc.) will be standard. They'll all compile from the same place and run off a core shared set of library files, but the binaries WILL be separate. I think only the bugzilla/development community will call it 'firebird' because we'll be too busy calling it 'Mozilla.'
Right now Phoenix users say Phoenix to DIFFERENTIATE from normal XPFE Mozilla users, but after we're standardized on Firebird that will fade away. We will evolve.
"Sometimes, I think Trent just needs a cup of hot chocolate and a blankie." -Tori Amos on Nine Inch Nails
Clearly, they (Firbird database) were thinking that trademark infringement is different when it happens to English speakers than when it happens to Chinese speakers.
Not meaning to troll, but to this observer it looks like hypocrisy, if not racism.
Maybe I should claim the moazilla.org and emuzilla.org domain names. Who says all the good domains are taken?
First of all, I had never heard of the Firebird database, and I'm sure I'm not alone. Now I have, and I'm sure the publicity is working out for them.
Secondly, why don't that just change their name to MozillaSQL or something? Good for the goose, right?
I vote they change the name to "ThunderPig"
Funny how the name "Mozilla Firebird" and the excuse "it's just a code name" came only after several days of "piss off".
In a recent spate of postings on LWN, Jonathan Walters recommends Mozilla should monetarily compensate for the disturbance to FireBirdSQL. Are these guys broke or what? Get a life, Moz developers were too lazy to contact you at the start, but after you protested, they made it clear that FireBird would go away. You got what you want.
what, again?
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
but on slashdot, everyone uses a browser. and if they code ... they're quite likely to have just picked up "php and mysql" at their local bookstore, and never looked for a -real- database. (isn't it sad that, even as good as postgresql is, and -known-, people still favor mysql? geeks, of all people, should know when they see a hack-job.)
I can't imagine why no one else bothered to point this out to you -- unless it's so obvious that no one wanted to take the time. A dozen trials tell the tale: MySQL stacks up right next to Oracle in performance tests, leaving the others, including PostgreSQL, in the dust. Do a simple search on Oracle, MySQL, and performance, and read the myriad papers on the topic.
So once performance and reliability are answered, all that's left is price. Lessee, hundreds of thousands of dollars... free.... hundreds of thousands of dollars... free....
Hmmmmmm......
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
Its faster than anything out there for doing any thing it can do. So if it does everything that you do need, then why not use it?
Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
as others have pointed out -- you're right, mysql IS fast (see my other posts,) i even recommend it for datawarehousing situations, where data is denormalized, and fast queries against large amounts of simple information are a good thing.
however, it's also fast -for what it does- which is not nearly as much as other database systems. the fact that it compares to oracle while not having the features of oracle says something: oracle's still worth more, and maybe a price is justified. firebird, postgresql may have more features than mysql, but they also aren't always as fast. i've found though that they're not slow, and being able to accomplish complicated queries without resorting to some client-side method is often a -good- thing. i'd rather my server deal with it than my network.
You're pretty clearly biased against Mozilla for whatever reason. What this really comes down to is "Is anyone going to confuse a database with a web browser?" No. Of course not. The reason they couldn't keep using Phoenix is because the Bios company actually HAD a browser already, named Phoenix. Otherwise Mozilla would have been fine to use the name. There is no conflict whatsoever here, only Firebird DB trying to get some free publicity by being total jerks.
"Their weapon of choice, spam and hate mail. They should be stopped at all cost."
Well, actually Ann HArrison received death threats and IBPhoenix site was hacked. Shouldn't that be stopped first?
As far as "hate mail" is concerned I guess you are greatly mistaken, Exression od concern is not hate mail
not to mention think, neither of which can be said of you. mozilla firebird will remain the internal codename of the browser, the outside world will still see it as the mozilla browser... gosh is that hard to understand! but hey, when you sound like an idiot, might as well start tossing around childish insults to make yourself sound even more juvenile
"nfg05" writes:
Well, here are two separate codenames for you: "Mozilla Browser 1.4" and "Mozilla Browser 1.5".There, all fixed... Now, why THE HELL couldn't those Mozilla people think of that for themselves?!? It's not as if version numbers are a totally new concept in this industry, is it?
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
(And why does this stupid software insist on me saying something here, when I've already said everything I wanted to say up in the "Subject:" line?!? Malda, you're so LAAAAAME!)
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
Claiming they do is about as idiotic as if you claimed to, say, have "every right to actively claim" the trademark "Coca-Cola" for your new beer, or something. It just won't fly.
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here
But not all browsing is Web browsing -- some folks might, for instance, want to browse the data in their database. And for that they might want to use -- surprise, surprise! -- a database browser. In fact, I hear some people do that already... And guess what the database browser for the data in their Firebird database is called?
So, yes, it _I_S_ actually quite possible for a web browser with the same name to be rather confusing for users of a database that had that name first.
(And here's how you proved you were wrong: See how you yourself went from "a web browser?" to just "HAD a browser already" in the quote above.)
Christian R. Conrad
mail me at iki.fi ; same user ID as here