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Washington State Restricts Anti-Cop Videogames
Thanks to an anonymous reader for pointing to this CNN report mentioning that Washington state is the first in the US to regulate the sale of videogames to minors. The bill, passed Monday, "..forbids selling minors any video or computer game depicting violence against law enforcement officials.". Interestingly, the law (as mentioned at Slashdot a while back) seems to ignore the fairly well-respected voluntary ESRB ratings for games, with the article suggesting that Enter The Matrix might be banned for purchase by those under 17, due to the player battling cops, despite EtM only being rated 'Teen' by the ESRB.
If you games where kids can play outlaws, then only outlaw kids will play games where they can play outlaws.
What I find so annoying, about this is not that its another "we know what's best for you" kind of law, but that its one based on the assumption that the lives of normal citizens are less valuable than that of the policefolk. Apparently, if you were just mowing down innocent bystanders the game would be fine for minors that would otherwise be damaged by simulated combat with the police.
Thankfully I live in Washington state and can sign the petition for the repeal of this stupidity.
If they made it against the law to sell a game that depicted shooting white people, but it was OK to sell the game where people are shooting African-Americans, I think it would be slightly more obvious who they thought the second class citizens were, but it is no less offensive.
I may not agree with violent games in general but what happend to free speach? Gun ownership is not banned. How can you ban something very similar? Surly someone will take this to court and it will be struck down.
Mr. Pink: You kill anybody?
Mr. White: A few cops.
Mr. Pink: No real people?
Mr. White: Just cops.
If kids can't play these games they'll have more free time on their hands. What if they use this free time to learn? What will prevent them from taking all our jobs!?!
In this post-video game world, the kids have already won.
... is the first game I can remember playing in ages that gives you no penalty for blowing away (or chokeholding, as I prefer) civilians (as in, in the mailrooms).
Having said that, I just want to make clear I ONLY started chokeholding the civilians because I was afraid they'd turn into Agents if I left them behind me (now I realise your first introduction to an Agent is made blatantly obvious... I'll be toning down the more anti-social behaviour in my ETM playing now...).
I'm glad that they make the distininction that it is alright to kill people, as long as they aren't cops.
-saiha
At least, legally in many respects. They aren't offered the same legal protections as adults. If this law doesn't infringe on adults buying the game, it's very likely to stand.
But I guess we gotta start somewhere, and apparently they think video games is a good place to start
-Look lively. LOOK LIVELY!!! --Mr. Shmallow
I was under the impression that "restricted" things were often only "restricted" to certain classes of individuals. Thanks for clearing that up for me, I'll go call the police now because my movie theater is allowing those over 18 to see the "restricted" movie The Matrix: Reloaded.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Urm, this would effectively restrict the sale of Return to Castle Wolfenstien. After all, the SS are law enforcement officials too...
Lest we all forget about the movie industry, which has successfully managed to implement a ratings system that many people can agree on and has become common practice, while at the same time there is absolutely no legal involvement in the process. If a 6 year old sees Terminator 3 then no law was broken.
It's a good thing that the movie industry has such a powerful lobby to protect themselves against retarted legislation like this. The video game companies need a similar legislative body.
I don't like the direction some of the video games are going these days, but this is a bad precedence. When selling games is strictly forbidden for attribute 'A', pretty soon games will be forbidden for attributes 'B' through 'Z' (religion, race, nationality, etc.). Congress should support and enforce the ESRB rating system (more funding, etc) instead of taking direct action themselves - the ESRB is more properly equipped to research ratings and make intelligent, UNBIASED decisions.
The following is an excerpt from a post I made to a mailing list, where this very subject came up for discussion:
Schwab
Editor, A1-AAA AmeriCaptions
It could be argued in many video games, the enemy is "enforcing" some law for a corrupt or evil government or organization... whether it be the Hammer Brothers in Super Mario Brothers, the Imperial Stormtroopers in Star Wars, to the Republican Guard in a hypothetical Gulf War shoot-em-up. Absurd -- where do you draw the line?
-- Samir Gupta, Ph. D. Head, New Technology Research Group, Nintendo Co. Ltd., Kyoto, Japan.
So, you can let the kid watch cop-killer movies and read cop-killer books, but he can't play cop-killer video games. Not fair to the cop-killer videogame makers is it?
/sarcasm.
So, what about playing 'cops and robbers' is that restricted too? Can the kid playing the robber shoot at the cop, or does he just have to lay down and get frisked and cuffed?
Being only 16, if this actually affects any games I wish to puchase you can sure as hell bet I'll be getting them off kazaa. And It'll be a lot easier than the classic five finger discount ;).
Without music, life would be a mistake. --- Nietzsche
"Protecting" minors _IS_ a violation of free-speech. Some people are fool enough to think that as long as the law doesnt apply to all age-groups, it doesnt count as going against free speech. Remember that your speech is not free unless you can choose who you are speaking to!
"You can say that, as long as certain people aren't listening." Is NOT good enough.
If you're a parent, don't depend on the law to do your job for you! "I can't watch my kid every second of the day" is no excuse, because raising a child is about what you kid does when you aren't watching.
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
Laws of this kind that have started showing up since 9-11 make me sick. You want to make a law preventing children from buying violent contnet, fine. I don't agree with it. It is just another case of the government making up my parenting decisions for me. But WHY is the law only restricted to violence against law enforcement officials? So assuming that one buys into the idea that videogmaes make people do violent acts, it is ok for a minor to buy a gmes that is, for example, Teacher Killer 2K4, but not Cop Killer 2004 Season? What logic is that?
In my opinion, it makes just as much sence as making a law that applies to videogmaes but not movies, books music or any other form of popular entertainment...
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
I bet they don't ban games depicting ethnic cleansing like on I'm a racist's homepage. (Does everyone here know that jerk?)
I mean we are all doing it right ?, even the goverment think its a good idea
Also, who will be fining retail employees $500 for selling games like this to minors? It's not serious enough to put a cop in every corner of compUSA.
How will this law affect online buying of games though? If it makes it more difficult for people in other states, game companies might have better grounds for a lawsuit (business negatively impacted).
So a game is made that has guns So you ban a game that has guns Games are made with Knifes and stabbing weapons. So kinfes etc are ban'd So you make a game with baseball bats then baseball is ban'd. I think there should be a law passed to ban stupid ppl from passing laws. And remeber boys and girls, guns don't kill ppl, *I* kill ppl
Restricting sale of product ____ frequently amuses me. The assumption it seems, in this situation, is that the sole (or maybe "main" would be a better choice in wording) understanding is interactive content depicting violence against law enforcement persons is only acquired by purchase. I'm too lazy to look, atm, however I'm certian mods exist to accomplish just this. I think it highlights public perception reflected by the state legislative branch quite nicely. "Software is a thing which is purchased" - but I skip that road.
One other thought which crossed my mind is just how heavily this will be interprated. Hypothetically a game is released which includes a police officer NPC who is not harmed in the course of regular gampeplay; but of course I can "/spawn NPC_Police_Officer" and shoot him. Does this meet the requirment for restricted sale?
Bored with karma, be a fan/freak
Well, I guess killing the Redcoats in the Revolutionary War is out of the question, being that the British were the "legitimate authority" back in 1776.
I'm feeling disapointed that when I hear about the law singling out violence against a group, I feel like it values one person's life over another one; as if the life of a cop is more valuable than that of a citizen. It's kind of like the hate crime thing.
I see this as a good step for video games, it shows that the legislators are starting to treat video games as a legitimate form of entertainement such as movies.
Since video games core audience are males aged 18-34, there is a market for 'mature' content and should not be held up to different standards than other forms of entertainment (movies, TV, etc..). It will allow for developers to put whatever content they wish into their product providing they are willing to accept the rating it will be given.
Mind you, if I were still a minor I'd be super pissed :)
In australia where I live, there are seperate laws for assault, and assaulting a police officer, the latter having heavier sentences.
You know why they have these laws right? It's simply the ruling class protecting themselves.
If they ever get away with this, Grand Theft Auto will be considered a felony.
- Sherman
Washington State has already made their choice, now they just have to understand it.
The whole place seems to be going to hell in a handbasket! I mean, NEV's being legalized for road use, Segways being stolen, videogames having limitations put on them...I think something serious is going on. Somehow, all of them must be connected.
I'm sure the truth will uncover itself eventually...
Or hey, at least all the news makes for an interesting read.
you can outlaw based on violence against cops ?!?! :)
I am going to sue because I am NOT a COP and now the state is advocating violence against me
Tell me....is it mold from all the rain that makes people retarded up there ? or do you guys just leave your politicians out.. How many times has your father told you to put your toys away..now see what you get...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
It isn't really that such a law is being passed. There's nothing wrong with measures against youth playing violent games, etc... the problem is in making it a strict law. It's also a little odd to aim in particular against police-shooting games as opposed to violence against humans in general. That's why we have things like ESRB ratings. Really, it would be much more intelligent to make ratings mandatory, and require (as many stores do anyhow) parental permission before buying adult-rated games. In the end though, I suppose this isn't going to stop mom or dad from picking up the latest shooter game with cops in the gunsites, under the tires, etc etc - so life will continue as normal for those whose parents buy such games.
YOU should be banned.
Just buy them online. Sure, fight it in court, buy in the meantime, just buy them online. You can get them cheaper and often faster by preordering them. Also, if they were to have a law like that, I would rather have it modified so that they required a parental signature or something. Complete bans suck.
... the cops have been kidnapped by aliens and turned into evil flesh eating zombies, and the only way to save the world is by killing them all before the eat you? Would that be OK?
If I seem short sighted, it is because I stand on the shoulders of midgets
if they were just Rubber bullets ?
:)
What if the cop is undercover and fails to ID himself in the game
Lordy this is plain silly
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
I guess that would not be the case, first of all the SS is considered evil, as they were a part of an evil regime. Secondly soldiers, which they basically are in the game, aren't really law enforcers.
;)
Anyway, I agree that if there was a game called Iraqi Virtua Citizen, where you shoot Iraqi policemen, it won't be restricted, but perhaps I am just jaded
Dre
Living in Washington State and having been through the public education system and made privy to the legislation which takes place here, this recent restriction of video games is another typical step. Washington state seems to be a test ground (along with California) for new Federal projects. If any of you readers have recently graduated highschool from anywhere in the northwest or greater western US, and you had (or if not, very soon) to complete a "Senior Project" you can thank Washington State. All bias aside, Washington is corrupt. There is no dout in my mind that the state is receiving some sort of compensation or as they call it "SPONSORSHIP" for enacting laws or legislation which has the favor of the current administration. The rest of the country can expect this to spread very soon. I was actually shocked to heat the age 17 limit, because I was aware that Washington was planning on making the limit 21. Essentially, cartoonish violence is only for those with the responsibility to make themselves drunken stupid. This is just more of the same.
... "From my cold dead hand!"
I'll accept a ban on violent video games... right after they ban child-accessible weapons and ammunition and not a moment before.
Videogames don't kill people, people wielding weapons kill people.
Who's willing to bet money that banning violent videogames may actually lead to a statistically significant RISE in actual violence?
---
(I realise this is my second original post on the topic. I work tech support and my first post was written before I had to just deal with a client. I've just had to deal with a network problem and client complaining about said problem, hence the vehemence in this post...)
blah blah blah ... all you anarchists and conspiracists are no better than the news media. Throw them a bone and they gnash at it like its actually got meat on it. So Washington State is restricting sales of certain types of video games to children (that's CHILDREN) under 18yo... big deal. Should we let children under 18 buy porn too? They'll still get it. It's only illegal to SELL it to minors, not to possess it. Relax, go smoke more dope and imagine what you could be doing if you weren't so busy contemplating how the government is to blame for all your woes and ruined lives.
"It is essential that justice be done
I live in Washington, and I have to tell you, its not because our "leaders" are clueless technologists, grr, wait, Adam Smith. Damnit, ok, well, we have a few rotten apples, but these laws didn't get passed because the state is conservative.
Its because we are really, really bored up here. I mean, no earthquakes, no tornados, mild weather... our politicians would, for all intensive purposes, be out of work if they didn't create some sort of evil to battle.
It'd really help us out if someone could unleash a plague of locusts, or somehow channel a tornado or two our way. Lets keep those politicians busy so they don't wander into unfamiliar territor (like video games) and get scared and start writing stupid laws.
More kids inside playing games ='s less kids that are on the streets, bored and looking for something to do.
If you are going to rely on what I assume are legislators making consequentialist arguments, how long will it be before these games are banned for adults, after all the reasoning would likely follow along the same lines?
What will they do about the retarded human who is over 18, but has the mental age of a 6 year old? Are we going to have to have mental competency tests to buy a video game?
Anyone else want tax money back after reading this?
The only thing I'm high on is love...Love for my Son and Daughters. Yes, a little LSD is all I need.-Marge Simpson
The Interactive Digital Software Association (the gaming industry trade group) denounced the bill, calling it unconstitutional and announced plans to a lawsuit, which it hopes will prevent the law from being enforced.
...media trade group suing...if they win public rights will be upheld...someone call Rod Serling...
What complete & total bullshit this is. My kid is going to be carded not only for smoking a cigarette, or drinkin a beer... but purchasing a video game?
Then he's gonna get smacked for smoking & drinking. But still, this is garbage.
And on top of that there should made some funds for real fun games:
-Fluffy beast game, where you get point for hugging the most fluffy beast you can find, bonus points for a tickling hug! Of course this game isn't about getting the highest score which might be the root of jealousy... no in the end everyone wins!
-Pillow fight games, you can knocked out, but you can sleep it off, signs of damage are shown by feathers who stick to the limbs you actually hit!
So much game ideas, now I must be off to find a publisher!
Dre
*Sigh* as someone who has engaged in the law enforcement profession in the past, I find this offensive.
The reason there are tougher legal sanctions on people who assault/kill a law enforcement officer is because those persons are felt to be a greater threat to society.
Just as a person who coldly plans the death of another (ie. malice aforethought) is guilty of first degree murder and garners a stiffer sentence than a second-degree murderer, so a person who is willing to assault/kill a police officer is considered a great danger to society. The greater the threat to society, the harsher the sentence. It has nothing to do with cops being first or second class citizens.
Cops come third all the time... their lives rank just above that of a bad guy's, and below everyone else. The order goes like this... victims (or hostages), then bystanders, then cops, and finally, perpetrators.
That's not to say I agree with this law; I don't. I disagree with this law from a civil liberties standpoint. This is a parenting issue... If a parent wants their child to listen to Ice-T and play cop-killer video games all day long, then fine. But I expect them to STFU and hang their head in shame if some police officer has to kill their gang-banger-wannabe kid in self-defense some day, simply because he's conditioned himself to the idea that it's OK to kill a cop.
Actions. Consequences. Bad parenting has its own rewards... and punishments. While I wouldn't wish it on anyone, can you conceive a worse punishment than outliving your own children and knowing it was because of your own parental neglect? Talk about crushing guilt... As a parent, I can't imagine much worse.
Even if a man chops off your hand with a sword, you still have two nice, sharp bones to stick in his eyes.
And now Ice 'cop killer' T has been playing cops on TV for years.
Physics is like sex: sure, it may give some practical results, but that's not why we do it.
After all, most of the CT skins are police. If memory serves, one or two of them even say "POLICE" in big letters.
Do they seriously believe that banning depictions of violence against law enforcement will actually change anything? Perhaps we should ban books about people who shoot up schools - don't want to provide blueprints for future terrorists! While we're at it, we need to "sanitize" every reference to school shootings in the past twenty years, to make sure that there isn't any way for Johnny, the overprotected kiddie, to get the idea in his head that he could go shoot up his teachers (and never mind that we have thrown away any means to tell him it's bad when he DOES think it up). In twenty years, all this terrorism / Columbine stuff is going to be a forgotten memory, and we can all be happy and dance in a circle with Barney the purple dinosaur and...
Rats. Seems I can only stand so much sarcasm in one post. *runs to bathroom to puke*
A witty [sig] proves nothing. --Voltaire
I know I'm marking myself to be modded down into the lowest pits of Slashdot hell for doing this and will incur the wrath of hordes of indignant high school age geeks on this forum, but I can't say in all honesty that I'm against this. I've watched in the last few years as games have gotten far more realistic (shockingly so, in many cases) and borderline subversive. There have been reasonable complaints about this stuff and I've watched as those making a profit from it all have, for the most part, sat firmly on their thumb and blithely ignored the issue. With all that profit comes responsibility. If you disagree, clamp down on your next complaint about Microsoft, okay?
I'm not immediately in favor of legislating this kind of thing, but the video game industry, on the whole, has been pretty unresponsive to this issue. What have they done to prevent legislators from moving in this direction? Precious friggin' little, from what I can see. While you're busy complaining to your representative, fire off a letter of complaint to your favorite video game publisher too. They bear just as much blame.
Do I think people should have the right to play these games? Yes. Do I think keeping this stuff out of the hands of kids is an attack on free speech? No. I value free speech too much to allow some attorney for the video game industry to play emotional semantic games with that term. And that includes the term "censorship" too. It's not censorship, if it can be sold. It's not anti-free speech either.
Then there is the issue of public placement of violent video games. I called Regal Cinemas to complain once about some of the games they had on plain view in their lobby and the response was the typical, greedy corporate garbage I should have expected. To sum up, I was told that the games make good money and that my complaint was basically irrelevant. That is the kind of attitude that leads to stupid laws like this.
And before anyone think they need to take the predictable path of attacking me personally, bear in mind that I play many games myself that would be considered shockingly violent, but I do that in the privacy of my own home. I'm a big fan of video games. But I'm not a mindless consumer who isn't annoyed by bad behavior on the part of the companies I patronize. What bothers me is the apparent lack of concern for what kind of games are put out as demos in places like Toys R Us and on full public display in various places. If any of you don't see the problem with having games like House of the Dead on display in places like theaters and malls then you need to re-think your position a bit. It's not unreasonable to expect those things to be placed in appropriate areas.
I'd rather the video game industry had taken this up themselves and done something reaonable and responsible and respectable, but as they have consistently failed to acknowledge the issue, I guess it has to become a law. It's sad and could have been avoided.
--Rick "If it isn't broken, take it apart and find out why."
Cop #1: It's working, sir.
Cop #2: What's that?
Cop #1: Here, listen.
[Cop #2 takes off the headphones and allows Cop #2 to overhear the bad guys conversing somewhere else. The scene fades to the bad guys headquarters.]
Bad Guy #1: What do you mean we have to turn ourselves in?
Bad Guy #2: Well, we just don't have the budget to keep on with our life of crime. We used to train our people with those games that let us practice shooting cops. But now we can't buy them any more and we could never afford to develop our own.
Bad Guy #1: Can't we just buy games that let us shoot at people besides cops and practice with that?
Bad Guy #2: People besides cops? You mean like us? You want us to practice shooting bad guys like ourselves?
Bad Guy #1: What are you, some kind of politician? Where's your imagination. Just pretend it's a cop.
[Bad Guy #2 just gives him a blank stare.]
Bad Guy #1: You're right. It's hopeless. If you losers are all I have to help me commit crimes, I might as well just turn myself in. Now where's the phone book? I have to look up the number for 911 so I can turn myself in.
[Fade back to Cops Headquarters, where the police who now have nothing more to do are on the phone to their congressional representatives, thanking them for the new tough laws that make crime-fighting so much easier.]
Kent M Pitman
Philosopher, Technologist, Writer
I know this probably will not get modded up, but The movie Rating system is in many countries Law.. Canada and many States in the USA have this as law. I know I will not be the first to post this, but its the same laws for the most part that stop a 12 year old kid from going and renting a X rated movie. I've even heard of a theater getting in big trouble over not IDing minor's who were not accompied by an adult. The MPAA's rating does system have leagal teeth, if it didn't it would be as usless as the established ESRB at stopping kids from getting material they should not have.. I've long said the same laws that govern Movies should be implemnted on Video games. but as soon as you mention putting law to regulate what type of games kids can and cant have you get all sorts of people who really don't know exatly what they are talking about saying its a bad thing..
what is with "violence against law enforcement officials" of iraque or iran? are they also protected by this law?
See, well meaning but clueless lawmakers believe that you can pass a law covering every possible circumstance. You can't. Laws are supposed to do two things: 1. Prevent anarchy. 2. Set basic guidelines for life. Yes, there has to be a few rules (laws) when people live together in a community. NO, the law book should NOT be thousands and thousands of pages long! The problem is, that is exactly what has happened. There's dozens of new laws passed every day....which is more then the sum total of laws (commandments) GOD gave us (10).
...it looks like we'll have to start writing these games ourselves and releasing them under and open-source licence.
Let's see the bastards ban that.
-- Even if a god did exist, why the fsck should I worship it?
Damn shame that promising game about kids killing cops for sport has been banned now, I was looking forward to that.
:)
Still, at least that neato looking game about cops killing kids for sport is still gonna be out in time for xmas.
Joy
Not to mention any Robin Hood game.
Robin Hood was directly in conflict with the law enforcement, not soldiers.
Just in time for Postal 2, the sequal to the worst thing in America*.
* According to Honorable Senator Liebermann of Connecticut
I thought it was a basic tenant in society that something that poses an immediate danger to the society be banned. There are limits to free speech and artistic expression, and once they start to violate the rights of others (or pose some potential harm) then those liberties are rightfully restricted.
Killing a cop is symbolic to making a statement against the authority that protects the welfare of the United States. Except for crazy anarchists, everyone would agree that cops are the ones that keep society from unhinging. True, they also hand out speeding tickets and can be general assholes, but without them, what would happen?
Now I am in general for the protection of civil liberties. However, the statement against authority is Un-American. I agree with this legislation, but unfortunately, it does not go far enough. Content such as that should be banned, including the retroactive games.
not quite.. I believe he is talking about this little charm in ice-t's past...
I'm a little tea pot.
Well gee, what can I say? These people smokin crack or are they just plain dumb?
Videogames don't make you violent, or any more so than you'd be towards another soccer team if you lost a game of soccer. Videogames make you smart; your ability to systemize and think go through the roof. Just play a game of hitman 2; think you'll get far in that game without cognative thinking?
But seriously, a game is a work of art, banning art is, as we know it a bad and stupid thing unless that art is hurting someone without permission. Games like GTA don't hurt anyone, they just depict that, and lemmme tell you, I'd rather take out my anger towards society in Postal 2 than in real life.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
Magazines with game demos or places that rent computer time? Anyway, the real point, someone please make a Half-Life mod or level called Cop Killa. You could either play Ice-T or a 10 year old and your primary weapon would be a sawed-off shotgun. In the end you could kill Governor Deadbolt. It doesn't have to be a good mod or level, just enough to gather press attention(which isn't much). It has to be free and available for download.
You know, I work for [ MPAA | RIAA | spamming operation | other unpopular industry ] and I'm worried about people becoming violent towards me and my coworkers. Perhaps we should lobby congress to prohibit any video game depicting violence towards people in my industry?
Now, once we do this, we can branch to other forms of media.
Then, we can outlaw the depiction of non-violent resistance.
This is really horrid. If I were American, I'd start writing little free cop-shooting games (browser, windows, whatever) and keep distributing them as a token of protest until the law is repealed. There's nothing there about free cop-shooting games, right?
I have nothing against law enforcement officers. I respect every individual equally, and none more than equally.
I am utterly disgusted when I see reports on the news title "Cop Killer" or hear reporters and law enforcement officials remarking "you just can't kill a cop and get away with it".
There is perhaps nothing more offensive to the dignity of a free man or woman than this.
The suggestion that the life of a cop is somehow more important than the life of a businessman, a vagrant, or myself, is utterly repulsive and an affront to all that I believe in.
It makes me cry.
The day you believe that the life of any one individual is more instrinsically valuable than the life of another is the day that you surrender your dignity and your soul.
America's army.. Loyal. Proud. Brave. Shooting Arabs.
Stop the brainwash
One wonders how this kind of law gets justified... there is countless research that proves that the violence police applies in it's daily routine is directly proportional to the amount of times they get shot at. For more then once I've almost been tempted to defend myself when a law-enforcement officer 'attacked' me for no good reason other then having long hair.
In the Uk they've understood this, bobbies have nightsticks and they never get shot, plus people co-operate with a polite officer much more easily then with one who forces them in a defensive posture.
Violence only leads to more violence, bigger violence leads to even more bigger violence.
Instead of banning a videogame lets ban the guns, for all those who are confused about the difference between real life and fiction. If there are no guns people can't accidentally kill their 6 year old neighbour.
NO! You are fundamentally wrong.
The punishment required by justice is equal, always equal, and equal in all instances, to the injustice of the crime.
To punish an offender more than is required by the injustice he has done, even a day longer, is to commit an abhorrent act of moral sin.
To punish an injustice more than is required by justice, or less than is by justice to be expected by the offender, is to commit an abhorrent act of moral sin.
Injustice is solely and entirely the measure of the crime apart from its consequences, probable, posssible, or actual.
You see, do you see where your line of reasoning LEADS US?
If the punishment due is not solely and entirely a function of the injustice of the crime, then we may just as well imprison indivudals based upon what they might POSSIBLY do.
Do you realize that considered as a matter of probable consequences, an African American teenage male is a significantly greater threat than a white teenage male, or a female of either race?
Do you realize how absurd it is that this should be the basis for our ethical reasoning?
God help you.
(reparented)
NO! You are fundamentally wrong.
The punishment required by justice is equal, always equal, and equal in all instances, to the injustice of the crime.
To punish an offender more than is required by the injustice he has done, even a day longer, is to commit an abhorrent act of moral sin.
To punish an injustice more than is required by justice, or less than is by justice to be expected by the offender, is to commit an abhorrent act of moral sin.
Injustice is solely and entirely the measure of the crime apart from its consequences, probable, posssible, or actual.
You see, do you see where your line of reasoning LEADS US?
If the punishment due is not solely and entirely a function of the injustice of the crime, then we may just as well imprison indivudals based upon what they might POSSIBLY do.
Do you realize that considered as a matter of probable consequences, an African American teenage male is a significantly greater threat than a white teenage male, or a female of either race?
Do you realize how absurd it is that this should be the basis for our ethical reasoning?
God help you.
to keep it in fantasy land.. which is the video game.. any sensible person would know that violence is wrong.
You seem to have contently forgotten the ESRB that is already in place to deal with this.
...but the video game industry, on the whole, has been pretty unresponsive to this issue.
So I'm not sure what you mean by such phrases as:
I'd rather the video game industry had taken this up themselves and done something reasonable and responsible and respectable, but as they have consistently failed to acknowledge the issue...
I'm sure the industry tries to do as much as they can to try and make their products marketable to as large a segment of the population as possible but when a game gets stamped with the Mature rating, I would say that pretty much sends a clear signal to the publisher that the content in that game is for an adult audience.
And just to show you that I think they are doing a pretty fair job without the need for the government to come in and start some sort of slippery slope here:
Grand Theft Auto 3 -- Mature (17+)
Grand Theft Auto Vice City -- Mature (17+)
Age of Empires -- Teen
Neverwinter Nights -- Teen
Quake III Arena -- Mature (17+)
SimCity 4 -- Everyone
Freelancer -- Teen
Postal 2 -- Mature (17+)
Lilo and Stitch Pinball -- Everyone
I've played all of those games at one point or another and think that the rateings are pretty fair. Oh, and by the way. I'm a 30 something year old college grad who has been playing video games since the original Pong. Not all of us are "indignant high school age geeks."
Really, I know what I'm doing...Ohhhh, look at the shiny buttons!
Guns.. cool, no problem. computer games with guns in it, ban it !
If they ban violent computer games who can we blame next time someone goes postal ?!.
...but the more the country regulates what I'm supposed to and not supposed to do, the more I want to do what I'm not supposed to.
In this case, I'd love to shoot some cops. And politicians. And lawyers. And RIAA henchmen. And Microsoft execs.
I love GTA and others similar but I don't go out and kill cops. I have been palying violent games since i was 5 years old. SO have all my mates but we are all pacifists. People have been killing people since the beginning of time. The problem now is that it doesn't affect most people in western societies so when it does they try and blame something.
Ask some one in an African country in civil war if video games cause violence.
-- Karma Karma Karma Karma, Karma Chameleon - Boy George
Frank sinatra, one of the greatest ganster singers of all time.
What's jack upto, and is Mackie still out of town?
thank God the internet isn't a human right.
Next time I play Vice City I'll try my best not to go after the cops.I'll just bash in the heads of the old people and run the rest down.But if the cops should shoot at me,I'll have to protect myself. I don't think they're real cops anyway.I think they're just YMCA guys in costume Pretending to be cops!
... because it encourages children to take pills !
And suddenly pirate versions of GTA 3 become very popular in Washington.......
"Much work is lost, for the lack of a little more." -Edward H. Harriman
INTRO to Cop Killer.
This next record is dedicated to some personal friends of mine, the LAPD.
For every cop that has ever taken advantage of somebody, beat 'em down or
hurt 'em, because they got long hair, listen to the wrong kinda music,
wrong color, whatever they thought was the reason to do it. For every one
of those fuckin' police, I'd like to take a pig out here in this parkin'
lot and shoot 'em in their mothafuckin' face.
- Body Count (w/Ice-T) - "Out In The Parking Lot" - Cop Killer
Of course the miltia wasn't going to be composed of pre-17 year old boys either, but still singling out cop-killing instead of pregnant-mother-killing makes me nervous.
Wherever you go, there you are!
in the matrix that is. those are evil computer generated agents!
the state of washington should be grateful to millions of kids across the country who are willing to fight for humanity!!
Washington might as well admit it.
They are jusr scared after the anti-globalization riot in 1999 otherwise known as "The Battle in Seattle".
Sorry but video games are not the root of the problem there.
Hey so are they going to ban video games that show cops doing violence to other people? Or is that kind of thing ok?
because it's anti-environment!
Most kids under 17 go with their parents anyway, and the parents are the ones paying for it. They still get the goods anyway. What about the people that live on the boarder, they can just cross it and buy the game and come back.
There are a couple of inaccuracies in this article:
1) The law almost exclusively uses the voluntary rating system, though the violence against police officers and explicit sex are the exceptions
2) Washington isn't the first state to enact this legislation, Missouri, then Illinois, have both enacted such legislation--only to have them effectively anulled by the states' Supreme Courts.
I just wonder why everyone feels like they need the government to parent their children. If your kids are playing these games, then stop them, talk to them, play with and make sure they understand that they are just games, etc. If your kids are playing at a friend's house, this law won't do a thing. Since that friend's parents clearly are involved (implicitly or actively), make sure you know who your child's friend's parents are. Make sure they know and respect your parenting. As I said before, the state getting involved does nothing to prevent the problems with your own children. You are always going to have to be a parent if you want to have control in your children's lives.
If you don't like public games, then accompany your children there or build up enough respect and responsibility so that they don't play them when you're not around. If you don't do that, then they'll go and smoke weed and drink, and have unprotected sex, and whatever else is scaring parents these days. Seriously, what is the attraction with the government making a law to cover parents who don't want to do what's necessary to control their kids? It has been shown over and over to not be effective anyway!??! As an example, did you drink before you were 21? What about use drugs? Smoke cigarettes? What about your friends? You know there was a law against that right? Wait, are you saying that the law didn't stop you/them?!!?!?
'the Internet is right.'
In "Medal of Honor: Allied Assault" you have to kill Waffen SS members who, as an army of occupation, were law enforcement officials. I wonder if kids can buy it?
How about Caesar III where the Emperor sends his praetorians after you if you don't pay your tribute fast enough and you have to send your legions to fight them? They're law enforcement officials. Can kids buy Caesar III now? Maybe that doesn't count since it's your army fighting them, not your own character.
How about the Star Wars games? You have to kill stormtroopers who, after all, are only enforcing the wise and just edicts of the emperor. I guess kids shouldn't want to be Jedis anymore.
All's true that is mistrusted
...of legislators taking responsibility out of the parents' hands.
There ought to be punishment for parents whose kids break laws. That should encourage parents to raise their kids to respect rules.
Most of the "punks" I met in high school had parents who didn't care what they did. In fact, a few of them would have their parents bail them out at school whenever they could.
What's this Submit thingy do?
wow, what a great idea. this will definately put an end to the violence in our society.
Gyrate Dot Org - "Where high-tech meets low-life"
No, the problem is new laws are required to plug the loopholes discovered by those who want to do something not covered by the then current laws. Take the DMCA for instance. This was clearly not a pro-active law. Congress didn't justwake upone morning and say, "hey, copyright could use a little dusting off and be brought up to speed in the digial age." The DMCA is a reactive law brought about because a bunch of pimply faced geeks decided they would flaunt current copyright laws and distribute intellectual property illegally on the internet in a quantity never before possible. The DMCA tried to be as broad as possible to keep loopholes from existing because Congress has learned over time that laws need to be as broad as possible so they don't have to keep coming back to address the same issues again and again.
News laws are also passed to cover advances in technology. Sealbelt and helmet laws are examples of this as are new banking and financial laws covering the ways money can or cannot be distributed electronically. For instance, banks still can't print ther own money even if digital money is more efficient.
Great way to encourage piracy, tell the kids under 17 they can't buy their favorite games, the largest portion of the pirating world are 12-19 years old.
I'm not condonning this, but this is a hard fact, you won't fix the problem by making laws, this is the parents job anyway.
Like I said earlier, prevent a 16 years kid who is in love with Grand Theft Auto (If you haven't been a witness to this you don't get out much!) from buying the next version of the game, and the amount of burnt copies will spread worse than SARS in Asia.
Posting useless rant since 2003.
...next on the agenda is to restrict video games that promote violence toward astronauts (Grand Theft Starship 1 and 2 ) and food service workers. After that is a campaign to restrict video games that promote violence toward alien invaders.
Just log the data, and send it on. Locate them and nail them. "Sorry Mam, your son fits the profile."
The land of the free,and ppl who can't tell reality from fantasy.
Heard the Matrix 2 was R rated over there? With no real nudity, no gory violence, didn't really think it was a threat to gun toting teens.
You got what, two weeks left of school? Gotta be excited, high school in just 4 months!
They're not playing a game or fantasizing, they're promoting a lifestyle, and telling people what is cool. And many of these rappers do in fact try to live that lifestyle. Some are former drug dealers, game members, etc. Others still are those things...
If you think this doesn't affect kids, you're dreaming... It does, I've seen it.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
yeah yeah yeah mods, offtopic....
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Also weird is that MK3 would be restricted, while MK4 wouldn't be. Both are violent, M-rated games, but the earlier one just happened to include a cop as a playable character.
Overall, this is just crazy, arbitrary criteria for restricting a game.
Did they even THINK about what their law means? Pro-cop games would be banned too. Any game with cops as the protagonist also have to include criminals who would attempt to commit violence against the cops. So no more "Darryl Gates SWAT 3 Elite Edition" either.
That runs counter to pretty much all of the academic work done in this area. Do you actually have any evidence for this?
Stop by my site where I write about ERP systems & more
Maybe GTA4 will come out to show the player a cop getting the bad guys... and just a small mod ~200kb leaked would flip the cops and the bad guys.
Violence is there and has its effect no matter what direction its in, shoot Osama or driver over newyorkers, its the same thing, gives the same thrills and offers the same suggestions to frustrated kids.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
That must make Washington America's first police state!
In the superhero game "Freedom Force," there's a villain who clones cops and turns them into the bad guys, clone cops who'll shoot at our heroes on sight. (When you mouse over a usual officer it says "Defender of the Weak, Protector of the Innocent" or something like that, but the bad ones say "Defender of the Wicked..." -- that kind of thing.) Little did I know that "Freedom Force," whose main character, Minuteman, is honorably saving Patriot City from the forces of evil, was leading my kids astray. Pull it from the shelves, before it subverts all that is true and good! (As Minuteman himself would say, "Right makes might!")
Just goes to show how censorship in any bureaucratic form quickly becomes rigid and wrongheaded in application. There are awful games out there, and the solution most of us recognize is to, um, inform ourselves and not have our kids buy them.
If lots of people buy something that's really evil and vile, you've got bigger problems than censorship is going to solve. Passing sanctimonious laws and making it a constitutional issue to boot isn't going to get the result you wanted.
"Fundamentalism" isn't about divine morality. It's about human authority.
I think an orthodox jew would tell you that God gave out considerably more than 10 laws in the old testament. For example don't shave, or wear poly-cotton clothing. But few people observe the commandment to keep Saturday holy, so I'm not convinced people would follow even 10 rules.
How about a video game that embarrassingly shows what is wrong with the USA government?
Your score is based on the number of laws, and how unconstitutional they are that you can manage to get through congress. Various weasel techniques are at your disposal. Closed door "sessions". Campaign contributions. PATRIOT.
Those who would give up liberty in exchange for security and DRM should switch to Microsoft Palladium!
Part of the job description of police is to be in
danger, and in the line of fire. Why would a
policeman's life be any more valuable than a
normal person's?
It seems to me that if you outlaw one thing that represents, to some mythical overlord and protector of all citizens, virtual/simulated violence that will obviously begat more violence...then you should outlaw it all....At some point you have to let the people make there own decisions...instead of a bunch of high class morons just deciding that it is in the best interest of the community to ban something, maybe it should be put to a vote of the community (i mean that way you would have a better idea of what the community itself is concerned about...) Also you can't go around blaming I-Tea for causing problems with youth just as you can't blame video games for corruption...It may be a contributor to sociopathy but blaming things/people doesn't solve the problem...Neither does banning things......Marijuana is ILLEGAL does that stop people from getting their hands on it...NO...In fact it probably causes more violence/illegalities... This whole thing is just a show of how people don't really take the time to think about things.... Also i would like to note that i am for freedom of speech...i don't think things should be banned......There is no point in banning GTA or Enter the Matrix...just as there is no point in banning Harry Potter or Mein Kampf in school libraries...People should educate their children instead of locking them up...You need to make concious efforts to teach them that Killing people is wrong....
jC - sweet sweet squirrel on sheet metal
If it is unacceptable to allow minors to play any character that may harm a figure of authority, start creating games where they play figures of authority killing innocent bystanders. I think the law-enforcement in Washington would love to see themselves likened to such games.
After all, the LA Riots and Kent State massacre would make great games.
(If you didn't detect bitter sarcasm in this post, you need to read it again.)
Zech Harvey, MCSE, MCDBA, CCNA
According to All Things Considdered on NPR yesterday, the reason the bill for this law was proposed was because the "fairly well-respected ESRB rating system" meant beans when a 10 year old kid asked the nice clerk at the store to sell them the latest copy of BloodGoreShoot'EmUp 2000. According to a study they quoted on the show, 85% of kids who went into stores around the country were able to buy whatever game they asked for. We may recognize the ESRB rating system, but Joe clerk or Mike, the morgage holding store manager generally doesn't. This law puts some teeth into ESRB... I don't think its that bad at all. I'd have a problem with it if they out and out banned the sale or creation of the games, but they don't. They just control who buys 'em. I have no problem with that. David
I think that I shall meet my fate somewhere among the clouds above - W.B. Yates
First, Nintendo of America is based in Washington state. Second, most cop-killer games have exclusivity contracts on PlayStation 2. Third, Shigeru Miyamoto said the video game market needs popular, non-violent alternatives to Grand Theft Auto. Maybe, since Nintendo is completely shut out from the cop killer genre, they're trying to outlaw them?
The legislature and governor in Washington State can kiss my hairy yellow ass.
Once again the self-righteous hypocritical followers of Tipper Gore are at it. These friggin liberals talk all day long about freedom of speech when a consumer refuses to buy the Dixie Chicks' latest album (although, last time I checked, nowhere in the first amendment does it say that a consumer should be compelled to financially support those with whom he disagrees.) But they are more than willing to regulate the video game habits of their citizens. Take a guess at which of the two major parties sponsored this bill. I'll give you a hint: It wasn't the Republicans.
Twenty years ago, it was Tipper vs. Ozzy. Now its the Washington Democratic party vs. Grand Theft Auto and the Matrix.
Even more important, does anyone here really think that the supposed bastion of individual liberties, the ACLU, will take up the case against this law? Not a chance in hell.
New to Dungeons and Dragons? http://www.askthedm.com
Hell, I'd let 4 or 5 cops beat me up for a few minutes for $7 million.
There have been quite a few states that have passed the same law about Music and "cop killer" style rap and rock. ALL of them have LOST and had to be rewritten, to say that a album with a RATING (think ESRB for games) of whatever cant be sold to minors. What the law also CANT do is establish WHAT each rating means and what is needed in order to get that rating. THAT is done by an independent panel or national organization. (movies, ESRB, cable TV) What ends up happening is that the law becomes completely irrelevant as to why it was written in the 1st place, because a minority of people didn't feel that this is how it should be and / or they don't want to have to monitor the kids, let the cops and teachers do it. I say BULL!! if I feel my kid can handle a game that you might kill a cop in or fight demons, or role play as "god" then that is MY choice, not some idiot who never meet me or my child. just because they are in a spot to write a law or have friends in powerful places with a narrow-minded opinion on society.
I read all of the comments greater than or equal to +4
and nothing mentioned parents... why arnt parents reading the ESRB? why are they buying these games or allowing them into their houses? could it be that a little $60 game is cheaper than a babysitter?
why arnt stores enforcing the ESRB? movies do, most video stores do for renting, hell i was in a 7-11 and they wouldnt even let a kid (teenager?) buy a lighter, how is compUSA or EB diffrent?
but still its not the responsibility of the stores, its the parents, if my kids are viewing nazi stuff and hate literature, i dont want the goverment invovled, thats my problem, thats telling me im doing a bad job as a parent and i should do something about it.
The More Knowledge you have the Luckier you Get- J.R. Ewing
No bother, the Secrete Police for the Korporate States of Amerika will be by soon to dispose of your terrorist rhetoric.
The Matrix might be banned for purchase by those under 17, due to the player battling cops, despite EtM only being rated 'Teen' by the ESRB.
my computer's operating system was in total 'shock and horror', ( (c) d.o.d., patent pending ) at this CHILD's game. this game, who's soul purpose is the bloody murder of an operating system.
the sobs, the hurt, the distrust.
i gently said to my operating system, but isn't this how micorsoft feels about linux?
Deer Revenge where you kill stupid rednecks
One is a game that simulates a sport and the other is a silly premise.
Both are just games that are not real, but whatever game you prefer is a matter of taste.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
25 year old convicted level 3 sex offender (highest likelihood to reoffend) walks away from State Run mental hospital... For his 9th time!
Local Police and residents are outraged, and the state's reply is "we're a hospital, not a prison".
Glad to see the priorities are straight by protecting youngersters from evil video games, while letting psycho child mollesters "walk away" from treatment.
We must be close to an election again.
Develop a game that has players taking the role of George Washington throwing off the redcoats.
Then, make a big stink about how you can't sell it in Washington, as this law would prevent it, as the redcoats were, at the time, in a legal position of authority and what not.
Sit back and watch the fireworks.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
This is certainly not the first law regarding these kinds of regulations.
/.'ers.
Because I'm lazy I won't look it up (*ducks*), but I did have a friend of mine who owned a video store for a few years. This was around 1998-2001. During this time there were (and still are) Tennessee laws in place that made it a crime to rent R rated films or M rated video games to minors.
The first violation is a fine, the second is a very large fine, the third is jail time.
Please forgive me on the lack of details, but screaming from the rafters about the terribleness of this law just points out the ignorance in my fellow
There are many, many laws like this in many states (not just Tennessee) regarding video game/movie rentals with similar restrictions. Now the same applies to sales.
If I were a betting man, I'd say the same law I outlined here also includes any retail outlet. It just simply hasn't found a case to highlight it.
And you know what laws make? Criminals.
They're trying to build a prison, another prison system! For you and me.. *grin*
If they are distributing intellectual property illegally then they must already be breaking some law. Right?
Laws were made generic enough to protect us even from a digital age. However Americans were not made smart enough to understand this.
I think the reason we need more laws is because when we prosecute someone we want to be able to provide a stack of laws they broke so the sentence can be as harsh as we would like it to be, in case we need to make another example out of someone. We're so good at that.
Suppose the cops are evil and mutated?
Will Duke
1) call the ACLU and report an abuse of power, or
2) unload both barrels into their porcine bottoms?
I can see it now, in 3D Realms vs. the State of Washington, the argument over whether a half-man/half pig is nonetheless still a cop.
Meanwhile shooting a stripper with a shotgun will still result in an explosion of gore and money.
We need a little less pandering to law enforcement and a few more strippers.
-dameron
Hell yeah! I'd buy that game. :)
fire.
But everyone already knows the life of a citizen is more valuable than the life of a terrorist.
There is a very fine line between being a patriot and a nazi, huh?
In fact I would go so far as to say Americans think the life of an innocent American is worth at least twice the value of some innocent person in Afghanistan or Iraq. Judging them by their recent actions.
Hey, at least we're getting better. A decade ago we'd kill half a million of you without blinking an eye.
Finally someone making sense. I would vote to implement something like this nationwide.
Today it seems like the only way parents can protect their children is to keep them locked in the house without t.v. or a computer. Laws like this are needed to help parents.
The most dramatic presentation were the 10 commandments in Exodus. Though they were given twice because Moses destroyed the first set. And then given again in Deutoronomy (in a slightly different hebraic and I assume, english, text).
You will find that the 10 are not as cut and dry as those that support posting the 10 commandments in school believe they are. How many people who want the 10 Commandments posted really support Exodus 20:8-11 :
20:8
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
20:9
Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
20:10
But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
20:11
For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
That's part of the 10 Commandments. I don't see many bible thumpers giving their pets the day off.
Quoth the article:
What constitutes minor for the purposes of this law? Under 18? Under 21?
Does video or computer game mean videos (e.g., VHS tapes and DVDs) as well as computer games? Or are they trying to cover class of video games that don't use computers? How about pinball?
Can kids rent the games?
Gimmie a break. I just love how people are breaking laws with video games, forbiding children to buy them even though the ESRB rating is a SUGGESTION. When a 16 year old can't buy Half-Life without a parent present, then we have some problems in intrepretation of ratings. Congress, Buissnesses (sp?), and adults in general seem to thing that we underage of america are stupid, impressionable clay that can be molded by anyone with an idea. But we are not the fools you think us, and how dare you forget these same feelings of resentment at being looked down on when you were this age! We realize that games, movies, and music are mearly things to enjoy, not instructions of demise, and if you think that we can be changed by any moving picture, interactive animation, or samples of audio, then you have forgot your own origins.
The 60's-comic-book-style videogame has some evil cloned cops that you have to fight.
The Press Release:/ gameviolen cefp.asp
n /index.asp# contact
http://hdc.leg.wa.gov/members/dickerson
Contact info for Mary Lou Dickerson (bill sponsor):
http://hdc.leg.wa.gov/members/dickerso
Excellent post! I happen to live in a "not so great" neighborhood with relatively high crime. I'm also surrounded by small municipalities that each have their own little police departments. I really want to believe that most of the officers working for them think they're accomplishing something worthwhile, trying to improve the area, etc. In reality though, it seems like they're mostly pawns in a power struggle. The municipalities would all like to expand and take over one or more of the surrounding ones, or snatch up the "unincorporated" area (that I happen to live in), to increase their tax base. The police become a critical cog in that machine because #1, they bring in the revenue the municipalities need to survive by way of tickets/citations, and #2, they aid in propaganda. (EG. Hey Mrs. Jones, we sure are glad we were able to catch that guy who stole your purse a couple weeks ago! Be sure you vote for the annexation when it comes up next month, so we can be sure to get the funding we need to keep up that level of service to you and your neighbors!)
It really doesn't help them earn any respect when they're quite visibly serving as little more than tax collectors in uniform. My friend's truck got broken into, right in front of our house, just recently - and the only reason the police even got interested in seriously investigating was the fact that the crook stole his cellphone and made a number of calls on it to his friends! My friend downloaded the detailed phone call log from the web site and gave it to the police, making it a breeze to look into it. Meanwhile, my wife got pulled over for "flicking her high-beams at an officer" (the guy was parked crooked, half way out in the road, late at night, in the rain - and she wanted to make sure she wasn't going to hit him!). I got ticketed for "parking on an unpaved surface" because 2 wheels of my truck were barely on the edge of my front lawn! I also got ticketed for a rolling stop at a stop sign at the end of my street, and fined over $200 in court costs alone. I just don't feel like the priorities are in the right place here!
The sad thing is I'm 18. I'm legit to buy it.
But then again, I did notice one of the cops had a RIAA sticker...
Maybe it's time to buy a copy of The 3D Game Creator and whip out a quick Quake-style game which eschews violence against law enforcement officials but gives the player plenty of opportunity to shoot up the Washington state legislature.
Of course, this is just a cynical move on my part, as an Oregonian, to tie up the legislature of our chief economic competitor with pointless bills while our legislature concentrates on stimulating the local economy. BWAHAHAHAHA!
Oh wait, our legislature is hog-tied by anti-tax fanatics while the roads and schools crumble. But that's off-topic and not even very funny, so I'll let the matter drop.
Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
Just buy them online.
Wouldn't it be easier for them to restrict this sort of thing online?
As in based on the age data your credit card has on file for you?
"There are people who do not love their fellow human being, and I _hate_ people like that!" - Tom Lehrer
I can't believe this! This is an outrage! I would have thought the hippie's from Oregon would of started this first.
"Don't worry, they're only Indians" -General Custer
This is not about God. Keep your religious views out of the discussion if you don't mind.
What about the Twisted Metal series, most of which have a police car? What about fighting games, many of which have a character that is a cop? What about a game that allows you to do anything and everything to anyone, but has some consequences like Morrowind for example? What about games that let you play a police officer, but allow you to commit suicide? Should game developers be forced to remove any possibility of harm to police officers?
Christ, how many times will governments ( state or federal) need to learn that you cant legislate morality? All this law will do is force people to buy games from other states. Anytime one state passes an inane law to prohibit something, the surrounding states become suppliers. If it wont work with curtailing gun proliferation, how do they think it will work with computer games?
I give up! Lets just pass a million laws outlawing anything that will hurt someone. We can try to isolate people so that they are never exposed to violence, pain, sickness, injury, bad thoughts, in-approriate thoughts, dirty thoughts;
outlaw any activity that can possibly injure someone. Lets make our lives so bland, comfortable, and boring. If we pass the right laws, heck, we can get everyone to think the same way; to think the same thoughts. I'm sure the government would welcome that.
Me? Give me chaos any day!
Since nethack has Keystone Kops, I guess that rules out playing nethack in the state of Washington. Not a minute too soon either, whenever I see those K letters Ice-T's Cop Killer starts going through my head.
Conveniently enough, there will also be an "unofficial patch" released by some "enthusiasts" that restores the game to its original state.
Call (206) 338-5780 COLLECT for information about a genuine BA, BS, MA, MS, MBA, or Ph.D.
RE 2 and 3 had law enforcement officials.
If you count security guards, RE 0, RE 1, and RE:CV are also going to be restricted.
Secret of Mana? Yeah, you fight law enforcement officials.
It goes on and on.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
It's a suggestion. Ratings are suggestions designed to educate people about game (and movie) contents.
;)
Why should this be enforced? If Matrix Reloaded is 14-A because of the action sequences and such, it means that they think the earliest age you can understand and handle that is 14. That's not always true both ways. It's still a personal decision: the parent should be watching what the child does.
If the parent gives the child 70$ and says to go get a game, and the kid gets Vice City, whose fault is it? The parent or the store? I think the parent. When you put that much buying power into the hands of someone, you are making the assumption they'll buy what you think is fine. I'd consider suggesting gift certificates if you want to give buying power that's restricted to your children.
If a kid walks up to me and has 70$ and wants Vice City, I'll buy it for them. If their parents cared, either that kid wouldn't have that money, or the parent would be there to see that they bought something age appropriate (which might even be Vice City, if their parents are liberal minded).
Plus, if you cut off the children, the only people buying Vice City would be the people who are mentally immature
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
military burn outs; if you served in the army, then many states allow you to avoid the already minimal community college educational requirements. A GED + 10 years in a military base is not preparation for a "peace" officer.
Low IQ males, who are of a "good guy"/"bad guy" mindset. The police in my experience do not understand they are supposed to be peace officers instead of law enforcement officers (this role is reserved for judges and juries.)
To add to this, our legislators are forcing a series of low level "wars": against poor neighborhoords, against drugs, against the homeless, and against activists. (In Colorado, the police department was found to keep a "watch" list of liberals, civil rights advocates, and environmentalists)
As a result, many of us frequently see poor or marginal people beaten up, harassed, abused, and arrested. The same police officer will offer an "Can I help you sir" to a white guy in a suit and briefcase.
Real reform will only come when the police start treating the white middle class the same way they treat the groups they are at war with.
When in doubt, have a man come through a door with a gun in his hand.
If I mod you down, could you chuck the controllers too?
Thanks.
If you cant play the matrix because you fight cops (who aren't really cops, just constructs in the matrix) does that mean you cant fight any "police force" of any kind?
Can I not play wolfenstein because of all those german "police" I kill?
What about Super Mario 1, don't I go into King Koopa's castle and kill just about everyone, including those keeping the (his) peace?
Or is it only for those who represent U.S. police forces?
This is the same David Brame who also is accused of raping a woman in 1988. Of course nothing happened to David Brame. And the Pierce County sheriff's department did nothing about Crystal Brame's complaints because her husband was the chief of police.
Perhaps we can make the object of the game to shoot Tacoma cops, who are corrupt and Pierce County Sheriff's deputies, who are stupid and corrupt. Oh, and you could add Pat Frantz to the list. He's the head of the police union in Tacoma who has been threatening journalists and blaming the media for David Brame's actions.
Yeah, I think that having a game where you waste these useless and corrupt cocksuckers would be a good thing, I think that having kids play this game would be even better.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
If we can ban games for the anti law enforcement content, can we ban games with content of overzealous law enforcement knuckleheads who take the law into their own hands? After all, I would like to reduce the number of people in society who when asked about their career aspirations pretty much said "I want to be a cop so I can shoot people". (like many football players at my highschool) Thankyou Govn. Gary Locke!
I know I'm chimming in a touch late, let me share my thoughts on this issue.
I've always supported media labeling. Wether it be violent, sexual, house politics... I don't have any moral issues with assigning a label to the content.
This serves two purposes,
#1 some people don't like to watch sex, violance, rape. For example, I don't watch cops, I don't enjoy police violence being glorified on telivision.
#2 parents can use their own judgement as to what they find objectionable, and actually play an active role in a child's upbringing, which is pretty much their job, not the state.
For example: "We don't want you to watch cops, we don't feel the glorification of police violence is acceptable".
The BBC did have some issues with Doctor Who from what I remember, basicly it was still handled by the child department and percieved as being a kids show even as late as the 1980s / 1990's. Police objected to the use of aliens masking them selves as police in order to carry out their evil plot basicly saying something to the effect of, "You can tell you kids there is no such things as monsters, you can't tell them there is no such things as police".
But as far as the Mr. Gary Locke signing this bill... I disagree strongly. Any one who remembers being a kid and playing cops and robbers should agree... it's fun. That's all I percieve Grand Theft Auto being, good clean fun where you play the role of a crimanal. When you flip off the switch, you're back to your regular life.
For the time being... I guess video game makers if they are to hit the kids audence in washington, I guess they'll have to replace Police with RIAA and MPAA officals, who are not actually law enforcement.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
that I have to stop using my net in Animal Crossing to hit the Police Officer from behind?
> --- All Of The Above --- >
is going to be a cop.
...
That way noone can shoot at me, but I can shoot at them.
And since I live in Washington State, if I do get shot, I'll have the game producers arrested
> --- All Of The Above --- >
Not really. A "hate crime" is really just a new category of intentions for the same actions that society thinks should be punished differently. For example, it's very different to kill your wife immediately after finding her in bed with another man, than to kill your wife two weeks later, after purchasing a $5M life insurance for her. The value of your wife's life has not changed over those two weeks, but the mitigating circumstances to the killing have.
In E-rated driving games with police like Need for Speed or Midtown Madness, it is acceptable to run the police off the road or destroy their cars. Would such a game be restricted to minors? Hell, in Roller Coaster Tycoon, you can drown the security guards in water-- should that be banned, too?
The Science article seems to be good science, but it clearly indicates in its abstract that it does not determine or attempt to determine the direction of the association between violent behavior and violent media. All it proves is that violent people like violent media. It does reference some articles that attempt to show causation, but with results all over the board.
This time with feeling: "Correlation != Causation"
But thanks for the link, good article and starting place for discussion.
-Ryan C.
-Ryan C.
HB 1009, if anyone's interested.
Players: Law Enforcement Officials.
Goals:
Rating: Teen.
If you can't find a game with these criteria on store shelves, you are BLIND! Worst, i don't think these will get the ban.
Makes me wonder WTH are those people smoking. ( must be a lot more potent than what i use )
laws (commandments) GOD gave us (10)
Yep, just like Jupiter/Zeus gave laws to the Romans/Greeks.
-
- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
Well, that's just plain false. In the second example, the value of my wife's life has gone up by $5M!
Why the hell didn't I think of this when I posted last night?
b le_ than_dead_Officials)
This law will be the PERFECT opportunity... to adopt Open Source programming of more platform independent or cross-ported games!
Regulate sales all you like, sparky. How do you regulate downloading and voluntary donations? Hey, Washington? Hey, bigfella?
Regulate THIS! (#include your_own_mental_image.h)
(#include all_previous_comments_re_dead_people_more_accepta
"Computer games don't affect kids; I mean if Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic music." -- Kristian Wilson, Nintendo, Inc, 1989
I made a PHP/MySQL library that prevents SQL injection & makes coding easier!
krispykringle -- Apologies, but this really is getting more involved than I have time to pursue right now, so I hope you don't mind if I call this my last contribution to this thread :)
... the nuke-in-a-briefcase does give me the willies. Depending on who you believe or refuse to, there may be one or more of these in cities around the U.S.; reasonable sources suggest that the Soviet Embassy had one. (Or maybe this is now to the level of proven or disproven fact, I am not sure.)
In more direct regard to guns, though, we clearly acknowledge limits. You would be in the great minority (not that that discredits your beliefs, to be sure) if you truly believed that "anything [one] can bear is fair.""
Well, that's why I used the past tense
"Does this apply to everyone? Are licensing schemes to make sure owners have proper training illegal?"
That's a good question. The Constitution specifies the right to "keep and bear" arms, does not address matters of acquisition directly. Certain types of legislation could obviously subvert the intent of such a statement of rights (banning ammunition, or outlawing guns with a capactity for >0 rounds of ammunition, mandating a 131-year waiting period etc), but I am not certain whether a mandatory training or competency test would do the same. I've considered this only a little bit in my life, but I don't see it as clearly unconstutional (or immoral, fattening etc) to require a basic competency test. (General welfare might cover this, though I think the general welfare is basically best served by leaving people the hell alone.) Driving licenses don't bother me so much, since they apply to public spaces; I think a decent analog in the gun world are the courses required, I believe in every state which allows concealed handgun carry, before people can carry. I think it's important that any such requirements be reasonable and liberal -- the law should defer to the gun owner and the public, rather than force the owner to defer to the state.
"What about preventing minors or mental patients or felons from owning guns? I know this will probably make you shake your head and mutter, "it's a slippery slope," but clearly once you acknowledge that some restrictions are OK, the debate becomes a bit more complex."
Well, I do acknowledge that some restrictions are OK, but I think this slippery slope is far less slippery than the point you raised earlier re: scope of arms ownership rights (the MiG). Felons who have served their full term ought IMO have the full rights of citizenship restored. It's not good to have a stratified society where people have different levels of rights. (For that matter, I'd like to see a lot of age restrictions done away with, on both ends of the age spectrum. Mandatory retirement ages disgust me.) Parolees by definition do not have all the rights of ordinary citizens, but I don't want a permanent parolee class.
"There are, of course, those who argue that in a historical context, the 2nd Amendment didn't mean what it has been said to mean, namely that the "well funded militia" means the intention was for a regulated militia, not rampant gun ownership in any home."
The Constituion specifies "well regulated" rather than "well funded;" that well regulated though is in a subordinate clause, subordinate to the "right of the people shall not be infringed" part. And, in a historical context, the founding dads expressing an opinion (looking for counterexamples) were pretty pro-gun.
See for instance this page, with gems like "Little more can reasonably be aimed at with respect to the people at large than to have them properly armed and equipped." (Alexander Hamilton, Federalist Papers #29)
(Though see also this page of bogus founders' quotes, which casts some doubt on the top quote from G. Washington listed in
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Here we are, placing restrictions on something based on what it expresses, but it's TOTALLY NOT CENSORSHIP! I mean, we're not placing restrictions on it because we don't want the message spread, it's just that we're afraid of the message and what it means when it shows how lazy and incompetant we all are as parents and school administrators! Erm.... forget that last part -- I mean, you have to remember that last school shooting that was done by a person with a stable, caring familiy and wasn't driven to suicide's grizzly alternative by incessant psychological torture by kids at school.... right?
right?
OK, well, do you remember that cop killer on the news a couple weeks ago that wasn't primarily motivated by socioeconomic facto--oh wait.
Why can't we get laws to censor ignorant rednecks who think that playing a video game will magically cause more than a statistically insignificant number of crimes(no, 3 crimes in the past decade isn't statistically significant not even if they were "really bad crimes")? Get a life and piss off. There's no legitimate reason to restrict the sales of video games to minors. If there was, there would be obvious statistical factors, rather than a bunch of chronically ignorant soccer moms and politicians who want their votes who are afraid of anything that might shake up their pathetic existance. the murder rate would have shown significant increases, especially in the ABOVE 18 demographic, seeing as a recent study showed that 99% of game buyers are in that demographic.
Jesus H. Christ, can't the lot of you just go live in the forest, get malaria from mosquitos, and pray to buhda instead of taking pennicilin instead? That way the intellitent members of the population could get back to something more intelligent than (and look for the video game reference here) looking for "The Ultimate Evil, which lies just outside of the range of our most advanced scanners".
It's been a long time.
The issue here isn't violence or sex, it's specifically about rebelling against authority. Not violence in general, not sex in general, but specifically acts of violence against authority, even though that authority happens to be enslaving all humanity and murdering thousands in order to make sure they can keep enslaving humanity.
"Don't do it, because they're the ones in power."
And dont say "The laws exist" in order to go against "The laws are unjust"
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
After all, the Terrorists's job is to kill the Counter-Terrorists, which are made up from law enforcement agencies of various sorts...
Sorry washington, your kids can't play the most popular game out there.
From Blockbuster.Com:
But... The main character is a cop himself! This is really silly. The other day I was listening to "Cop Killer" the song by Body Count (Ice-T, Hard Rock). It made me think that this and other things, althought GTA et. al. didn't come to mind, and I thought that it's just so silly and unreal that it can't be looked at seriously.
Now, lately they said that if you made a movie with fictional child pornography (ie: the character is underage, nude, but really 23) you would be convicted of the same crime. But this idea was overturned because it made something that wasn't illegal,... well illegal.
This isn't fair to the consumers simply because they have judged your intentions and thoughts before you made the purchase even. Sure, some games may require an adult or ID, I don't mind that in order to protect others rights. We can't have lawmakers stretching laws until we break.
Nobody touched a cop. If someone was influenced by the game, it wasn't the games fault. If there was something that could make you attack someone people would be doing it in masse.
Get your Unix fortune now!
The three not mentioned in the familiar 10 are the commandments "not to eat a limb torn from a live animal" (cruelty to animals), blasphemizing G-d, and the establishment of courts. Poly-cotton clothing is OK and not forbidden to a Jew, the term "shatnez", or mixed garmets, specifically as its mention in Deutoronomy puts it, applies to wool and linen mixtures only, not to all mixed-fiber clothing.
Also, most halachic decisors allow the cutting of a beard if it is done in a mechanism that uses a scizzor-like action, like some electric razors. However, even that is forbidden during part or nearly all of sefiras haomer, in accordance with various customs mourning the students of Rabbi Akiva, and the three weeks of mourning from the fast of the 17th of Tammuz to the major fast of Tisha B'Av, so many Orthodox Jews choose to trim their beards rather than deal with stubble during several weeks of the year. In Chasidic sects it is customary to either have always a beard or to even never trim the beard, for mystical reasons.
Also, observant Jews obey the Sabbath. It's indeed "restrictive". However, its the only commandment I know of that gentiles are forbidden to partake of.
For Immediate Release!
Tacoma, WA - Brainpan Software, a Washington-based maker of violent video games, announced shipment of a radical departure from it's normal fare. It's new hit RTS game "David Brame 3D" features scenes involving police officers in which the player is not permitted to shoot the police, but must instead stand passively by while the officers beat or shoot their wives in public settings, and in view of their kids. In other scenarios, the player must remain motionless while being gunned down by hundreds of Iraqi police officers (also known as Republican Guards). New InterRace3D technology permits the player to play as a member of 8 different minority groups, so the violence experienced from a passive standpoint is different each game! When playing as the Black Man, for example, the viewpoint of the bottom of the officer's boots shows much greater tread detail then what can be seen when playing as the Asian Video Camera Operator across the street.
"We are happy to shift our focus towards creating video games that do not depict any sort of violence against police officers, not just because it's a good idea, but because it's now the law!" chirped Brainpan's spokesmodel Ivana Hurle.
"I'll do anything whatsoever to look good politically, Sir, absolutely anything at all" reiterated Washington Governor Gary Locke.
Watch for David Brame 3D in your local software store!
I don't think this is WA state law, but a lot of video game stores and places like Wal-Mart and Target won't sell "Mature" games to kids under 17 anyway.
Tell you what, if you survive the impact of the Xbox, we'll talk.
You're a bloody Loony.
Food not Bombs is a nice platitude but it breaks down when you notice that the Bombees are usually well fed
My only real concern is the business about Enter the Matrix. I mean jesus the "cops" in that game are not human even, the are AI constructs and cookie cutter classes. Hell they are in fact the "bad guys" They work for the so called "law", you know the authority that thinks they know what is best for humans and builds the Matrix and tells them how to live. We should make our kids play games like that just so that they know people are always what they seem. Shit ..... wait a minute, that sounds awfully familiar to this story that I heard, I think it was about red and blues pills and a white rabit. Nahhhh, couldn't have been.
All this does is complicate things. I don't think the governments of the Left Coast care about keeping things simple, though... As for piracy, if you choose to pirate a game, it is your choice, just as if you choose to try and punch a cop, it's your choice. The reprecussions are yours to deal with, and neither law nor game can be blamed for the actions which are entirely voluntary, no wonder what BADD or other such organizations say about it (sorry for the oddball CD, can't resist a chance to rant about D&D-haters). It continually bothers me the way that antagonist groups will distort reality in any feasible way to advance their agenda upon the idiots who think that Tom Brokaw and Gretta Van Sustren are just anchormen who deliver the news. Side note, even though I'm probably getting annoyingly preachy: Be aware that bias is everywhere in politics and distorts the perceptions of everyone involved. Denying it only makes you more schitzophrenic.
Damn, all my carriage returns disappeared.
That's it, I'm writing my posts in HTML from now on.
Once such a thing is accepted, one is undefeatable. ;)
-- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
I see, in the near future, a video game where an innocent videogamer is assailed by evil law enforcement officials for playing a game they found offensive, and ends up killing them all. I also forsee strong sales in British Columbia, Idaho, and Oregon.
http://www.accountkiller.com/removal-requested