Microsoft Talks Handhelds, Xbox Linux

Thanks to an anonymous reader for pointing to a Canada.com interview with Xbox head honcho Robbie Bach, which shoots him some wide-ranging and perceptive questions about Microsoft's console strategy. Interesting answers include whether Microsoft wants to get into the handheld console market ("It's like starting a new business...we will focus on making the current Xbox successful."), and their views of Linux for Xbox ("..the numbers are not really that big. It's not a commercial as much as it is an intellectual property issue and we always pursue those.")

Comments

xbox piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

when people are buying a $180 system to run games on and instead mod it and install whatever. your loosing money on all of them, so you're loosing.

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

P.S. If I'm pirating games... guess what, I wouldn't have bought them from you in the first place... so you know what you lost when I pirated the game??? absolutely nothing, you realized the entire potential profit on games from a person who would pirate material for illegitimate reasons (note I think there are plenty of legit reasons) $0.00 + $100profit for the gaming console. Hey... guess what, you lost nothing and made $100... doesn't that mean you came out ahead????

Re:xbox piracy

[Oriumpor]

The XBOX is the cheapest MP3 network appliance I have. However, the Hard-drive leaves much to be desired. The fact that I can use it as a digital to my stereo from it is a + as well. Then again, my apex 3 disc can run 3 mp3 cds in a loop/random... so really, it just sits there and makes a lot of noise with the stupid fan, and crashes incessantly on my neighbor's games. (and halo, which came free)... that's what you get for buying refurb.

Re:xbox piracy

[Anonymous Coward]

when I buy a $180 system that cost $100 to make, you just made $100 regardless of what I do with it afterward

Good to see math alive and well on slashdot.

Re:xbox piracy

[Tazzy531]

I love how piraters justify their actions.

First of all you have some pretty fuzzy math there:
>>when I buy a $180 system that cost $100 to make, you just made $100 regardless of what I do with it afterward

180-100=80 not 100.

Anyways, back to my point. I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but all recent reports have shown that MS, Sony, Nintendo are selling their gaming hardware at a loss. This has been the way that the industry has worked over the years: sell the systems cheaply, make it up by collecting the royalty and licensing fees.

Secondly, your naive statement on piracy:

P.S. If I'm pirating games... guess what, I wouldn't have bought them from you in the first place... so you know what you lost when I pirated the game??? absolutely nothing, you realized the entire potential profit on games from a person who would pirate material for illegitimate reasons (note I think there are plenty of legit reasons) $0.00 + $100profit for the gaming console. Hey... guess what, you lost nothing and made $100... doesn't that mean you came out ahead????

You fail to recognize the sunk cost of R&D in creating the X-box. All this has to come from somewhere. The measily amount of money made from selling the hardware will not come close to making up the 100s of millions of dollars spent on developing the system.

Anyways, my point is not that you should not be modding or pirating, but rather, don't delude yourself into thinking that it is not an illegal activity. Or justify it with that you would not have bought the pirated game in the first place.

I mean, I have pirated my share of games, and modded some consoles, but I don't delude myself into thinking what I'm doing is right. Piracy is piracy is piracy.

Re:xbox piracy

[inc0gnito]

Interesting math not-withstanding, as I understand it, every X-Box that microsoft sells, they sell at a loss. The idea is to get you to buy the console and then spend money on games which are much cheaper to manufacture.

So, by buying an X-box and not purchasing any games, you are hurting Microsoft's bottom line.

Re:xbox piracy

[Mac Degger]

But it's not about piracy...iot's about playing imports.

Why should I be limited to the shit that comes out in europe? Same for dvd's...can you explain regoin coding as anything else than a mechanism to control the market? And can you find a law that says I am not allowed to bypass someone who wants to limit my acces to commercially sold information that I legally pay for? No, you can't.

You can find a law which makes it illegal for me to bypass protection schemes...but if those schemes are illegal in the first place (ie anti-compettitive and anti-trust), then my rights supercede the ones which prevent me from doing what I have every right to do.

Re:xbox piracy

[program21]

Actually, region coding (in movies and games) was the big topic of the DMCA hearing I was a part of (May 2). Basically, the movie industry admitted that it was nothing more than a way of allowing "price discrimination" (exact words) based on where someone lives; when questioned about why they felt region coding was necessary as opposed to just not marketing a game in area, they didn't have a response.

I imagine the situation to be the same with the games industry, and by not allowing playing of imported games, they get more control over how much people have to pay to be able to play a game in a certain area.

Re:xbox piracy

[Lochin Rabbar]

Are you serious?

You fail to recognize the sunk cost of R&D in creating the X-box. All this has to come from somewhere. The measily amount of money made from selling the hardware will not come close to making up the 100s of millions of dollars spent on developing the system.

The X-box is just a low spec PC in an ugly box with an assortment of hardware and software dongles. It's not exactly ground breaking technology. 100's of millions of dollars in R&D, paid for by flying pigs no doubt.

Re:xbox piracy

[EvilSporkMan]

Actually, 100 - 180 = -80, an 80 dollar loss for Microsoft, assuming those numbers are correct.

Re:xbox piracy

[zackbar]

I'm trying to understand everyone's math here. I couldn't find any reference to $180 or $100 in the article, and the replies seem to lack any kind of source material.

But I *really* don't understand your 100 - 180. This suggests that the purchse price is $100, and the cost to mfr is $180. As I am pretty sure this isn't the case anywhere, I'm totally lost on this. Everywhere I've seen, the price is in the $199 range. In Europe, it's around 165 pounds or so. I don't believe it's $100 even in Japan.

Perhaps everyone is using a different monetary system? What gives?

Re:xbox piracy

[EvilSporkMan]

Ok, a point for you, it's closer to $300 - $180 ^_^;

Re:xbox piracy

[Swiss_Cheeseman]

It was microsofts choice to do this, and unfortunately, it seems to be the most popular option in the console world. Many companies are trying to make this illegal by implementing stupid laws. Since when do companies make laws? I always thought that they should just follow them.

Re:xbox piracy

[korielgraculus]

AFAIK, the xbox doesn't force region protection on games, but it does allow games producers to implement it if they wish.

Is it a way to manipulate the market? Absolutely! But, are you still morally allowed to bypass protection when you have agreed to a license agreement that says it is only for use in one country? Or is it OK to "lie" when agreeing to the license just in order to let you bypass it later, just because you REALLY, REALLY want to watch/play that foreign version of the latest Matrix?

Until those protection schemes are defined LEGALLY as being anti-competitive and anti-trust then they aren't, so you have no "right" to break the protection.

I don't necessarily agree with DRM systems, I also don't agree with piracy or region encoding, but I have to live in a world where I deal with the actual reality, not just the one that I would like it to be!

Re:xbox piracy

[-brazil-]

I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from, but all recent reports have shown that MS, Sony, Nintendo are selling their gaming hardware at a loss. This has been the way that the industry has worked over the years: sell the systems cheaply, make it up by collecting the royalty and licensing fees.

And why are they doing this? In order to fool the consumer about the overall price of the hobby. They choose to do it this way, nothing forces them to. Obviously they see a benefit in it. But they don't have a right to that benefit, or a right that there can't be disadvantages to this strategy.

Piracy is one thing, modding quite another. Anyone who wants to tell me how I'm "allowed" to use something I paid for can go fuck themselves.

Re:xbox piracy

[Mac Degger]

I don't have an xbox, so I don't really know, but does the xbox have a eula that flashes up on boot up? Don't you just buy the thing in the store, plug it in and play? Do you actually have to sign your john hancock somewhere when you buy one, or when you buy an xbox game?

Re:xbox piracy

[Vorlonesque]

Well, the thing is that with the EULA you don't have to sign anything...hell anymore if you just SEE it you're bound to it unless you burn the XBox and commit ritual suicide. I'm not a huge fan of EULAs, I think they are bullshit, but the courts have upheld them so they are law even if it is complete bullshit. The reason they've been upheld is that they are a necessary evil...they're legal for practical reasons rather than legal ones (and ofcourse if the practical reasons ever go in YOUR favor (as a consumer) its questionable whether the courts will uphold whatever you want). I'm ranting, sorry.

Re:xbox piracy

[drinkypoo]

That's a load of crap, when I buy a $180 system that cost $100 to make, you just made $100 regardless of what I do with it afterward.

Math is not your strong point, is it?

Let's say it costs Microsoft $100 to make the Xbox. Fair enough. Now they have to put it in a box and ship it to the store. They have to attempt to recoup the cost of R&D. The store marks it up so that they can make a profit; Before the store does so, so does the distributor.

In other words, Microsoft might only pay $100 to make an Xbox, but if they only get $80 for it from the distributor, they aren't making money. Economics 1, son.

Re:xbox piracy

[xarak]

In many countries (most of Europe) it is illegal to sell at a loss. If M$ decide to juggle the internal accounts to put hardware development costs on their games, then that is their commercial strategy, and nothing stipulates you must buy more games. If I decided to mod _MY_ hardware to play Linux on it, that's my decision, and MS can only remove my guarantee for it, not stop me using _MY_ hardware.

Pirating games is, I conceed, a different story.

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

Correction, Microsoft doesn't ship to stores... if they do they are cutting out the distributor and making more profit... otherwise they ship to a distributor. End of cycle for microsoft, they have made whatever profit they are going to on the xbox... where it goes and what is done with it from here on in is none of their concern (except for warranty issues). Microsoft is not a company that lets anything go without a profit... rest assured they are making money on the system. $20 an Xbox adds up real quick and I suspect they are making more than that.

Now, if they want to make yet more with games and licensing of development equiptment and such, then they do so. Whether or not I mod my X-Box is a non-issue in terms of whether or not I buy games as it is with MOST people who do so. The only way modding affects my purchase decision is if microsoft specifically incorporates mechanisms to prevent me from doing this... in which case I will bypass said mechanisms or if unable to do so, simply won't buy their game.

Which is better? I buy or don't buy based on whether or not I like the product. Or I simply don't buy because they stick their noses into what I do with my own machine?

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

If manufacturing, distribution, etc were free then microsoft's cost on the X-Box would be ZERO not $100 "you stupid moron".

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

Sounds like a poor business plan. They might sell more games if they didn't check chipping... This is their problem not mine. I sure as hell don't care to see legislation that is designed to protect their bottom line.

As for interesting math... in the $100 I felt it was self explanitory that I was taking R&D, Manufacturing, shipping, etc and dividing among a guestimate of the total number of xboxes microsoft will ever sell. Yes there is markup by the store and distributor true. But my point holds if they are making $1/each rather than $80... if they are stupid enough to sell at a loss that is their poor business plan and not the problem of end users.

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

The only "pirating" I've done of anything was for educational purposes or testing purposes. I have no intention of buying a ms license everytime I built a machine to bench some new hardware or test a new version of windows to see if it's just as useless as the last. This is illegal, does illegal equal wrong? No. It means you will be fined and/or jailed. But illegal and immoral or "wrong" have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

As for modding... it's association to pirating is equivelent to a pen's association with writing smut stories. I hardly think one should consider banning pens as a solution if wanting to rid the world of smut stories. Smut stories are written in other ways (as pirating is done in other ways) and pens can be used to write other things or do other things besides writing (as mod chips can be used for other purposes) for instance one could use a pen to stab Bill Gates in the eye... this would be a more constructive use.

Re:xbox piracy

[ratboy666]

Wha's "sunk cost" Isn't it just sunk, like GONE.

And *I* don't give a shit if the console is being sold at a loss. That is NOT my problem. Personally, I wouldn't sell 'em at a loss, but hey, who's to say?

And, do you know what else? I don't play video games. Really. I just like shooting holes in them "XBoxes". That cause I hate the commercial. I thought I was doing Microsoft a FAVOUR by buying the damn things. And shooting them.

Now you tell me its going to hurt Microsoft? Gee, i hope not... BAM! Now THAT'S entertainment.

You gone and done used fancy words "my point is not that you should not by modding or pirating.." My head effing hurts! Is your point that I SHOULD be shootin' them basted things or SAVIN' 'em instead "...don't delude yourself into thinking that it is not an illegal acitivity" That's 4 (FOUR) negatives in one sentence. I SHOULD be moddin' and I SHOULD be deludin' myself that it IS ILLEGAL Or maybe not... FUCK.

Ratboy

Re:xbox piracy

[drinkypoo]

Microsoft is not a company that lets anything go without a profit... rest assured they are making money on the system. $20 an Xbox adds up real quick and I suspect they are making more than that.

Ahh, naivete is so refreshing. Time and time again they have come out and said they are losing money on each Xbox sold, but they are taking a ten to twenty year view. In fact, from the article:

During the quarter ended Dec. 31, Microsoft's home and entertainment division, which includes the Xbox business, generated a loss of US$348-million on revenue of US$1.28-billion.

Do yourself a favor and read the (fine) article before commenting so you don't look like such a schmuck - This also does US a favor since we don't have to be exposed to your rampant ignorance. Also from the article:

Q. How long will Microsoft support a platform that seems destined to be in the red for the next few years? After all, you have invested US $3.5 billion on the Xbox and are still losing money on the sale of each unit.
A. We are being smart about bringing the cost of producing the Xbox console down. We can decide to not make it a long investment business and price it to get a better return, but this is a 10, 15 and 20 year investment.

I seem to recall that you have to buy about five Xbox games before Microsoft breaks even. A certain amount of that is made up in sales to rental places because kids rent the most video games, and kids generally mistreat rotational optical media (not that adults don't...) So while less games are sold, they get to sell several of the same thing to one place, and that place will keep buying more copies of the most popular games as the originals wear out.

Which is better? I buy or don't buy based on whether or not I like the product. Or I simply don't buy because they stick their noses into what I do with my own machine?

I bought an Xbox not for the modding potential but because of the things Microsoft actually meant it to do. The modding potential is just icing. This is the first console really worth making into a PC, though the dreamcast is close. The PS2 ain't there at all because of the pain in the ass factor and the cost. It's $180 for a PS2, plus $200 or whatever for the Linux kit, the Xbox made into a PC costs at least $100 less, and uses an x86 processor, which is arguably more convenient in today's world.

Re:xbox piracy

[Mac Degger]

I know that....the thing is that according to some rulings they are binding, and acoording to others they aren't.

But my question is this: does the xbox even have an eula?

Re:xbox piracy

[Rick the Red]

Except you're pulling that $100 out of your ass. It costs Microsoft more than $200 to make the Xbox - they're losing money on each console sale, not making the "$100" you claim (BTW, $180-$100=$80, not $100).

The point here is that Microsoft expect (hope) to make enough on the games to offset the loss on the console, and if you're modding the box to run Linux then you're not going to play games on it.

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

And their poor business plan is my problem how?

Re:xbox piracy

[Rick the Red]

It's not your problem. However, earlier you said, "Now if I mod it, I'm no more or less likely to spend money on games and services your [sic] selling." That's simply not true, if you're modding it to run Linux then you're not going to use it to play Xbox games, which is where they make their money on Xbox. So it's good business sense for them to try and prevent Linux ports to the Xbox. You're trying to claim otherwise, but you're wrong.

Perhaps you meant that there's no other reason for you to buy an Xbox than to mod it to run Linux (i.e., the likelyhood of you spending money on Microsoft's games and services is zero either way). If so, then you make my case. Claiming that it's not your problem if they lose money by selling you an Xbox is beside the point; you wouldn't have bought it if it were un-moddable, right? Or are you in the habit of spending $180 just to make Microsoft lose $100? If so, then please buy all the Xboxes you can afford and give them to someone who can use them (like a local teen center or Goodwill or something).

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

Last I checked modding an xbox to run linux doesn't render it useless for playing xbox games. Whether or not I mod the system so that I can open up features and flexibility in my xbox has nothing to do with whether or not I intend to buy xbox games as well.

Perhaps I'm mistaken, I don't own an Xbox, I've boycotted the company that produces it. But a gaming console's primary purpose is games and I can't see buying one without the intent to play games on it. I have modded consoles to run linux before and it never involved turning off the ability to play games, just added the ability run linux.... unless modding an xbox to run linux renders ALL regular games unplayable I fail to see where you draw your assumption that the ability to run linux automatically excludes the possiblity of purchasing and playing games... Actually I don't see where adding the ability to run linux impacts whether or not I have a desire to fully utilize my system and play games at all...

Re:xbox piracy

[Rick the Red]

Well, to me the only reason to run Linux on any game console is to get cheap hardware for a Linux PC, and once it's running Linux it's your Linux PC and that's what you use it for. What's the point of running Linux on an Xbox otherwise? Somehow I doubt this is a realistic scenario:

"Hey, you want to play Halo?"

"Nah, let's boot Linux instead and edit some shell scripts."

Re:xbox piracy

[shaitand]

Actually bang for buck that's a pretty sad way to get a linux pc. The only reason I've done it is to add extra features to the console (not necessarily the xbox) such as the abilility to play mame roms, mp3's, video's. This did mean I had more games and features on my console... it didn't mean I didn't play games for the console as well.

Now I have used a squid proxy on a console before, basically it worked with a pc kids used to browse the web, content filtering to make mom and dad happy and all the kids had to do was put in the "internet" game to browse the web. The rest of the time they could use it to play regular games.

These aren't things that are going to stop someone from purchasing games... but they might stop them from purchasing games that specifically look for the modifications that allow these things to happen. Maybe everyone doesn't look for practical applications like my second example, but I guarantee you there are no shortage of people who use linux on consoles for the first.

Anyway, this thread has gone much farther than I expected and it is time for it's life to end. No trolling or battles really intended, we disagree, lets leave it at that.

Re:xbox piracy

[princeofweasels]

And eventually these business will make laws that make slashdot illegal... or at least discussing modded chips on slashdot illegal.

Microsoft XBox Handheld

[questamor]

I can see the XBox handheld now

One foot by 3 inches thick and about 6 inches deep. Somewhere around the size of a PS2 :P

Re:Microsoft XBox Handheld

[Faust7]

One foot by 3 inches thick and about 6 inches deep.

*opens mouth*

*closes mouth*

Re:Microsoft XBox Handheld

[Obiwan Kenobi]

Just imagine:

Little Billy plays with his X-Box handheld, his arms rippled with muscles from holding the 20 pound monster for weeks. He holds it like a dinner tray, hitting the massive buttons with his fist.

His mother enters the room. "Look Billy, I got you a puppy!"

Billy's eyes light up, and forgets his grip on the handheld. It goes hurling toward the carpet. The puppy runs toward it excitingly, hoping to impress his new owner.

"Nooooo!" Goes the mother's scream.

As the handheld falls on the dog, it crushes the skull instantly (the blood splattering on the wall in a vicious arc), the small "yelp" almost non-existent. The head is taken cleanly off, and the body stands still for a moment before dropping to the floor. The screams only grow louder...

;-)

interesting

[shmuc]

Could this be another wave attempt at handheld consoles? Sony is in the process of making a handheld to go along with their top selling gaming console. Meanwhile, Nintendo, who still owns the handheld gaming console market, is standing strong with the GameBoy series (GameCube isn't holding up as well compared to it's little brother). Let's see how the two (MS and Sony) do against Nintendo in this category. If history holds up, Nintendo better start cranking with ideas.

Re:interesting

[arakon]

Nintendo's sales have picked up dramatically in the last 6 months, and you should really look at which systems the top 20 titles belong to and how many units were sold. Nintendo is doing fine and dandy. Xbox is sucking it up the worst of the bunch right now. Please check your numbers before posting fud. ::No invite for flames; I've got all 3 systems I just don't like seeing raw hype and biased opinions posted as fact.

1 Legend of Zelda: Wind Waker Nintendo GC 826,352
2 Pokemon Ruby Nintendo GBA 652,595
3 Pokemon Sapphire Nintendo GBA 585,098
4 Tenchu 3: Wrath of Heaven Activision PS2 164,282
5 The Getaway SCEA PS2 139,796
6 Def Jam Vendetta Electronic Arts PS2 135,162

http://www.the-magicbox.com/

from the looks of those numbers of units sold Nintendo has no problems with ideas or selling games.

Re:interesting

[Vaystrem]

I think you should perhaps look once again at the article. It clearly states that Microsoft will not be entering the handheld market as there is (paraphrased) "no link between success in the handheld market and success in the console market".

Nintendo's current dominance of the handheld market is considerable but that has not translated to dominance within the console market despite their recent attempts at games which allow the interaction of the GBA with the Gamecube.

Microsoft is making the right decision to continue their focus upon the console market. A split in the resources of the company could result in either the X-Box both "hypothetical handheld X" failing.

Once Microsoft has achieved a level of brand name familiarity and strength in the console market for a few years (and most likely atleast another console iteration) then at that point -- once entrenched and as a recognizable and respected console developer they could successfully launch a handheld device, Not before.

Re:interesting

[DoomPlague]

You can't really go by "history" because each generation and market seems to be different than another. It's true that Sony overtook Nintendo in the home console market but that had less to do with Sony being a big company than Nintendo's foul up with the N64.

The GBA has a large 30 million unit lead, backwards compatability, and a name that works well in that market. Sony's PSP is the biggest threat yet but I find it too ambitious, much like previous handhelds that got crushed by the Gameboy. One reason the Gameboy line has been so successful is because they have been small, affordable, durable, and they don't eat batteries.

Cheat?!?

[georgn]

Q. Folks have even built a Linux-Xbox computer. How can you control this?

A. Electronic hobbyists will do what they want to do...the numbers are not really that big. It's not a commercial as much as it is an intellectual property issue and we always pursue those. If someone finds a way to cheat, we close it down and do an update so people can't anymore.

I'd be very curious to know how running Linux on an Xbox is cheating.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Anonymous Coward]

Simply put, if you're running Linux on a machine that MS sells with their own OS, you're cheating them out of market share. The Hardware may be sold, but having their own system booted on a machine provides the mindshare that's more important long term.

Microsoft have budgeted that a certain amount of XBoxes will be sold. Removing them from their intended purpose in the eyes of MS puts that planning out. Although like they said, the numbers are not that big.

MS having that level of control over hardware they've already sold however, is something I don't agree for.

Re:Cheat?!?

[NanoGator]

"I'd be very curious to know how running Linux on an Xbox is cheating."

Did you read his previous answer?

"
Q. You now have PC, Internet and cell phone connectivity with the Xbox, plus Karaoke. How are you addressing security issues now that the Xbox is stepping out of the safe living room?

A. We are designing everything we are doing to provide security as a service for both player and game publisher. For example, we can sense and disable an Xbox modified with third party "modchips" and not allow it to play online."

It's not the answer you guys want to hear, but he's got a point. What's to stop people from cheating on-line if the XBOX can read games with modified binaries? When you pay extra per month for XBOX-Live service, you don't want to deal with cheaters.

Re:Cheat?!?

[FauxPasIII]

>> What's to stop people from cheating on-line if
>> the XBOX can read games with modified binaries?

What's to stop people from remote rooting boxes if their PCs can run modified ssh binaries? Robust servers.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Malcontent]

" Simply put, if you're running Linux on a machine that MS sells with their own OS, you're cheating them out of market share. "

Aren't you also cheating them out of market share if you choose to buy a PS/2 or heaven forbid not buying a game console at all?

When are people going to end up in jail for not buying MS products?

Re:Cheat?!?

[Arker]

The Hardware may be sold, but having their own system booted on a machine provides the mindshare that's more important long term.

I'm sure it is important to them, but that doesn't give them a right to coerce it. Once you own the hardware, you have the right to do whatever you want with it.

Re:Cheat?!?

[cruppel]

I don't think he means cheat as in alter gameplay so much as altering the X-Box as a product itself.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Arker]

Sure he has a point. And they're within their rights to try to detect modified XBox consoles and prevent them from playing on their service.

But the point doesn't go any further, however much they would like it to. It certainly doesn't give them any right to interfere with me using an Xbox for a routher, for instance. Speaking of which, can anyone point me to a good how-to on converting an Xbox into a decent *nix router?

Re:Cheat?!?

[Mac Degger]

See, the mayor flaw here is that you equate moid-chips with modified binaries. Which is just so much bollocks. A mod chip might allow you to play imports, and even warez'd games...but it a) doesn't neccessarily allow modified binaries and b)when certain mod-chips do, it's dead easy to do a quick binary check to see if the binaries have been modded.

Anyway, it really brwaks down like this. I buy a car, and can buy any carburetor I want and install it. Not only that, but I can legally get many third party books on how to modify my car.
The fact that xbox is a computer does not make one whit of a difference...no matter whatr MS say, or what they put in their eula (which, iirc, isn't there for an xbox).

So any limitation MS tries to pull flies right in the face of hundreds of years of precedent concerning motoring vehicles, shaving devices and even computers (remember the clone wars [as in pc clones...])!

Truly, even if the law says differently, I could not care less...the law of the land applies here and any other law is bought.

Re:Cheat?!?

[NanoGator]

"Speaking of which, can anyone point me to a good how-to on converting an Xbox into a decent *nix router? "

Why bother? For $120 you can buy a 54-megabit wireless router. $50 gets you an ethernet router. Besides overpaying and flipping Microsoft, you also have to exploit/mod it and get ahold of a Linux distro for it.

Re:Cheat?!?

[los furtive]

What's to stop people from cheating on-line if the XBOX can read games with modified binaries?

I thought that argument was put to rest when those gameshark cartridges came out for the NES. Maybe I'm thinking about the wrong thing, but I could have sworn lawsuites were filed and gameshark won in the long run.

Re:Cheat?!?

[NanoGator]

"Anyway, it really brwaks down like this. I buy a car, and can buy any carburetor I want and install it. Not only that, but I can legally get many third party books on how to modify my car."

I'm not advocating Microsoft's stand here. I think it's stupid. (In other words, I agree with you.) I'm not very supportive of attempts to hack it, though, because I don't think the little guy will win. Thanks to the DMCA, MS has the power to fight it by claiming IP damage. Worse, there's little to no reason (yet) to mod the XBOX. Everybody wants to put Linux on it. Why? To poke around with it and say "tee hee, I flipped off MS."? Where's the apps that justify the time into mucking with it?

I believe that along with the DMCA and the Court's views on this type of thing thus far spell almost certain doom for any legal battle that arises from it. Call me skeptical, but I would rather see the effort put into hacking the PS2 or GameCube and it's unique hardware.

Man I hope I made my point fairly clear. Every time I mention my view on this everybody argues with me, usually out of misunderstanding.

"Truly, even if the law says differently, I could not care less...the law of the land applies here and any other law is bought. "

Yes. That's why it's important to win battles, not just fight them. What happens if it turns into a legal hassle and MS wins? MS would have weaker ground to stand on if somebody made a heck of an APP that really worked best on the XBOX. Admittedly, I don't know what that app is. I'm sure there's a good reason somewhere to do something besides play games on the XBOX. My advice, though, would be to take advantage of it's 3D card and NTSC connector...

Re:Cheat?!?

[fiddlesticks]

> I'd be very curious to know how running Linux on an Xbox is cheating.

it's not, and he knows that. It's just part of the redmond strategy plan to go after people that mess about with 'their' stuff, so that when, some day, some unlucky hacker breaches some law about modding/messing about/ having UNAUTHORISED FUN WITH A MICROSOFT PRODUCT in any of the territories that xbox is sold in, as well as the copyright/ 'IP issues' that they'll bring to bear in court, MS will also be able to tell the judge that 'they weren't playing fair, they weren't playing the game (halo...um..any others?) like a gentleman, they were trying to cheat'

if said judge is resident in a former colony of the united kingdom (CA, US, AU, HK, IN, all the biggies!), cheating at a game will be the worst thing the judge can possibly imagine, and the nut that wants to run blackbox on his xbox'll get sent down for a long time.

Re:Cheat?!?

[rmohr02]

I do understand his point. We have the right to mod our Xboxes, and they have the right to keep us from playing on their servers because of what we did. However, I'm not a big fan of Xbox live anyway.

Re:Cheat?!?

[NanoGator]

"I thought that argument was put to rest when those gameshark cartridges came out for the NES. Maybe I'm thinking about the wrong thing, but I could have sworn lawsuites were filed and gameshark won in the long run. "

If memory serves, Nintendo tried to claim that that Game Genie caused damage to people's games. There was a breath of truth to it, enter the wrong code and you could erase save games. You could also make the game unstable (only when the Genie was hooked up...) thus making the game seem defective. Yes, Nintendo lost. Nintendo's stance on that was pretty shitty. I wish I could tell you what their real concern was, but unless a bunch of people called with tech support issues, I have trouble imagining it. (Was it possible it could have been used to play unauthorized games?)

Here's a question for you: Would the Game Genie case hold up today in light of the DMCA? If you're looking for the difference between then and now, that'd be the first direction I'd point you.

Re:Cheat?!?

[NanoGator]

" We have the right to mod our Xboxes, and they have the right to keep us from playing on their servers because of what we did."

Heh. That kind of reminds me of Slashdot's favorite game company who's name rhymes with Wizard.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Arker]

I've got a hardware router, but I'm not happy with it. Limited programmability, and seems to have a problem dealing with thousands of simultaneous low-bandwidth connections as well. An Xbox or even an old 486 with a custom kernel and firewall would probably be more satisfactory - but it's hard to find an old 486 for the same price as an Xbox.

Plus making MS eat a little loss would feel good too.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Plus making MS eat a little loss would feel good too. "

So you're willing to spend money to make MS lose money? Can't say I'm impressed. Personally I'd donate to the EFF.

Re:Cheat?!?

[realdpk]

Does running Linux on an Xbox render the Xbox completely unable to play Xbox games ever again? That'd be quite a mod.

Re:Cheat?!?

[los furtive]

Game Genie, that was it, thank you.

Your description of Nintendo's argument against Game Genie is very similar to MS's argument against mod-chips (stability, unauthorized games). You are right though, DMCA does change anything, even though only real diff between Game Genie and a mod chip (from a user point of view) is that you don't need to open up your NES to install the Game Genie.

Still, it could be used as an example of how this stuff has been around for a while, heck, same thing existed for the Commodore 64...anybody remember the SnapShot or SuperSnapShot cartridge? I think I'm showing my age :-)

Re:Cheat?!?

[Osty]

Anyway, it really brwaks down like this. I buy a car, and can buy any carburetor I want and install it. Not only that, but I can legally get many third party books on how to modify my car.
The fact that xbox is a computer does not make one whit of a difference...no matter whatr MS say, or what they put in their eula (which, iirc, isn't there for an xbox).

So any limitation MS tries to pull flies right in the face of hundreds of years of precedent concerning motoring vehicles, shaving devices and even computers (remember the clone wars [as in pc clones...])!

There's nothing Microsoft can do to stop you from modifying your XBox, exactly in the same way that Chevrolet or Ford can't stop you from modifying your car. What Microsoft/Ford/Chevy can do is refuse you services if you've modified your property. That means if you replace your fuel injectors with a high performance carbeurator, or foul your MAF sensor because you replaced your air filter with an overly-oiled replacement, or put a a mod chip in your XBox, you can be refused warranty service or XBox Live service. Sucks, but that's the price you pay. You can certainly live without those services, but it's a decision you have to make: is modifying your property worth losing access to those services? In some cases, it is (building a car up for racing, you're certainly going to void any warranty -- you're probably also going to make the car uninsurable, and you're going to have to handle any issues on your own). In other cases, it's not. Make your own decision.

Re:Cheat?!?

[mvdw]

Where's the apps that justify the time into mucking with it?

Apps are here

I can't think of a cheaper way to get a device that will play DivX/mov/whatever movies on my TV in the living room, with network connectivity, all in a case that looks like it belongs in the living room.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"I can't think of a cheaper way to get a device that will play DivX/mov/whatever movies on my TV in the living room..."

It's a pity that the creation of DivX movies is legally questionable, specifically in the sense of ripping DVDs to attain them. The only reason I bring that up is that court case involving the company wanting to make DVD backup software. It's not looking good for that company. It's stupid, really. Jack Valenti thinks that making a backup of a DVD is the same as having a company replace your lawn mower if you run over it.

Re:Cheat?!?

[mrseigen]

Don't forget that Nintendo went after one of the video rental places (Blockbuster?) for renting out games; their argument was that the rental of video games would eat into the market. Nintendo was smacked down by the law, and thus we can rent video games. In those days, Nintendo was pretty vicious legally.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Arker]

Really? That would be wonderful.

You probably didn't realise that I happen to live in Sweden, and the shipping might be more than the purchase price. Not all of us live in San Jose you know. ;)

If I watched the classifieds closely for a few months I could probably find such a deal, but I can walk down to the store and get the xbox, a more powerful machine with ethernet and USB already installed, without the wait.

Re:Cheat?!?

[mvdw]

I agree. IMO software companies (especially) can't give you a licence to use their software and then charge you exhorbitant amounts for replacement media if yours is ruined. They can have it one way, but not both.

Same goes for music CDs, or DVDs. Either I own the whole lot, and I can make backups to play through my computer, or whatever, or the media company can replace the broken CDs I have at nominal cost.

Is it illegal to download MP3s of music that you already own? It shouldn't be, but it probably is. If it is illegal, then I should be able to get some of my old, worn-out original CDs replaced by the music company at nominal cost (like, say, $1 each or less). But I probably can't.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Is it illegal to download MP3s of music that you already own? It shouldn't be, but it probably is. If it is illegal, then I should be able to get some of my old, worn-out original CDs replaced by the music company at nominal cost (like, say, $1 each or less). But I probably can't."

From what I understand (corrections invited) downloading the music isn't the illegal part (assuming you have the CD), but the providing of that file to download is the nasty issue.

I agree, with the cheap replacement bit. The RIAA can't seem to make up it's mind if you're buying plastic or licensing IP. Double Dipping?

Re:Cheat?!?

[miu]

I'd be very curious to know how running Linux on an Xbox is cheating.

The statement "If someone finds a way to cheat, we close it down and do an update so people can't anymore." could be meant in two different ways.

In the first sense, it could refer simply to online games. People could cheat to win a game. Going further than that people could cheat by knocking someone else off-line, steal an account, increase their own standing in a league, use the service without paying, and so on.

In the second sense it could refer to the econmics of the XBox in the context of game theory. MS tries to price the XBox in such a way that it is affordable, with the assumption that each unit sold will lead to other purchases, build brand loyalty among consumers, and so on. Cheating here is invalidating the "rules" that MS set up for price and use. MS also tries to release information to developers to increase the attractiveness of the system to licensees. Cheating in this sense might cause MS to be more restrictive in releasing information to developers.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Zork the Almighty]

Too bad you don't live in Vancouver, I've got 486's coming out my asshole over here. They all have 8MB of ram, with 1MB simms dammit. I'm going to get linux on one, but what else do you do ? Maybe I'll submit this to ask slashdot.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Cruciform]

If you want to race that car you have to fit within the guidelines for that circuit. They don't call it Stock for nothing.

If you want to play on Live, then you play with Stock. If you wanna bugger around with your XBox and mod it, more power to you... but your car analogy doesn't fly.

Re:Cheat?!?

[ncc74656]

it's hard to find an old 486

Check here...$15 for a barebones Socket 5 system, $4 for 64 megs of RAM, $1 for a 100-MHz Pentium. You can probably do better locally with prices for el-cheapo Realtek-based NICs (I bought some Intel 10/100 NICs from them a while back for $2 each, but they're not up on their website...they have 3Com 3C905s listed at $20 each). For a firewall, you don't really need a hard drive...but you probably have one gathering dust that you could put in there if you want. I'm fairly sure that's a good bit less than whatever an Xbox costs.

Re:Cheat?!?

[1g$man]

That's a totally different issue. It doesn't matter how robust the game server is, the client can still cheat in a game unless there is protection on the client side.

Unless you do all the rendering and input processing on the server. Yeah, that'll fly.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Minna Kirai]

The client can still cheat in a game unless there is protection on the client side, on the server side, and on the whole data path in between.

For example, AimBot proxies have been written that sit between a game client and server, and modify the trajectory of a player's shots to be 100% accurate.

More simply, and with no risk of automated detection, a program could sniff the game packets to draw a birds-eye-view on the player's PC monitor.

(Oh, and the joysticks must be protected too. Can't allow macro sequences or autofire...)

Re:Cheat?!?

[Minna Kirai]

From what I understand (corrections invited) downloading the music isn't the illegal part (assuming you have the CD)

Well, in the US, that is technically illegal. Only the copyright holder can authorize someone to duplicate his content. The fact that you've purchased one copy on CD doesn't permit you to make more.

Many people claim that fair use entitles you to make a backup copy of a CD, and prehaps the downloaded materials could be considered such a copy (although MP3 files are lossy-compressed, and would be a poor way to recreate the original CD).

The government's description of fair use, however, mentions nothing about backup copies, although both backups and time/format shifting have seemed acceptable recently.

Re:Cheat?!?

[class_A]

Yes, if your modchip runs the Linux Cromwell BIOS, as this will not boot Xbox games.

I presume the IP issues that Microsoft are referring to are modchip BIOS's containing modified Microsoft code so that they can boot copied Xbox games alongside unsigned code.

Re:Cheat?!?

[eatdave13]

That's not what he's saying. He's answering a question that was only tangentially related to the one he was asked, in order to avoid saying, "There's nothing we can do about it at, and even if we could, we don't care unless it gets to big." He's right, the Linux Xboxers don't matter as far as the company's concerned, and won't unless they start pirating lots of software (from Microsoft, not other people) or cheating at games, so it doesn't make business sense to pursue them now. But he changed the subject because people automatically would view his answer in a negative light if he answered in a completely negative manner, and he's a politician. You just took him too literally

Re:Cheat?!?

[eatdave13]

but it's hard to find an old 486 for the same price as an Xbox.

You're right about that. I'd be hard pressed to find one for more than $30.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Tony-A]

I'm curious where Nintendo would be today if they had won. How many current owners would not be owners if it hadn't been available as a cheap rental?

Re:Cheat?!?

[p0rnking]

But when you're selling something at a loss, and hoping to make $$$ off of the software, then it becomes an issue. Right now, there may not be many XBoxes with linux on it, but, (just for example) what if 50% of all Xboxes sold ended up having Linux installed? No (M$/gaming) software would be sold.
If you didn't realize by now, M$ does things for $$$, same goes for most people who run a business. If they don't sell games, they don't make $$$ (and yes, I am well aware that Gates has $40 Billion in the bank).
Just look at Sony, for the longest time they were against having Linux installed on their PSs, or look at the modified AIDO (or whatever it's called), and all the B.S. that happened when people started hacking those up, and providing the codes to get around their encryption.

Re:Cheat?!?

[PurpleRabbit]

486's coming out of my asshole

Definitely not anally retentive.

Re:Cheat?!?

[irc.goatse.cx troll]

That's not how Aimbot Proxies work. The proxies just trick quake into thinking you're in spectator mode, which keeps the 'camera' aimed at the targets head. Much easier than remembering position of all clients and forging mouse movement. (Note: the word 'proxies' in here is very important, there are other ways of aimbotting, and no one uses a proxy to do it anymore.) /useless nitpicking from an ancient gamer

Re:Cheat?!?

[Corporal Dan]

Take a look at the Galoob vs. Nintendo case. Nintendo's argument was that the Game Genie takes Nintendo's copyrighted games and modifies them to create a derivative work. Since creating derivative works is the sole right of the copyright owner, Nintendo claimed that the Game Genie violated its copyrights on its games.

The court ruled against Nintendo because a derivative work must include the original work in some "concrete or permanent form." Since the Game Genie simply modifies the bits sent between the Nintendo and the game cartridge, a derivative work (a modified game) was not stored in tangible form anywhere.

To make this complicated logic clearer, the same court in a different case (regarding selling levels for Duke Nukem 3D) compared the fictional example of a "Pink Screener" to the Game Genie. That is, a device that is a piece of pink cellophane designed to be placed over a TV screen. This device does not create a "derivative work" because, although it changes the colors of the original game, the new, tinted game is not placed into a "concrete or permanent form."

Re:Cheat?!?

[Minna Kirai]

That would be a clever trick, but it's not how they all work. I'm using as my reference the Stanford Stoogebot. The source code is unpublished, so I can't be quite sure what it does, but the authors state it keeps track of all nearby targets and computes visibilty (ray-intersection to the BSP) for all of them, before deciding which to shoot.

And it definitely forges mouse movement, as described in the section on decoupling movement and orientation. (Its not a "forgery" in the sense that it expects to fool people, though. The pseudo-mouse is updated perfectly, without introducing any of the incremental delay that might confuse a bot-detector on the server)

Re:Cheat?!?

[jez9999]

Why do you need to buy an Xbox? Why not just go and make a computer from the cheapest *new* parts available today? You could probably still buy a 500mhz machine for $200.

Re:Cheat?!?

[kableh]

An old PowerMac 7200 cost me 20 bucks, and is doing a fine job of playing router/firewall/DNS/mail server for me and my roomies. It's PCI too, so I just threw a couple of 3Com 10/100 NICs in there and use the onboard (mace) ethernet for my WAN link.

Frankly I think the "two sides" on this issue should just agree to disagree, and shut up. The only truth I've seen come out of this is that we're all criminals, and that's fine with me, I've been a criminal in more ways than one for a long time.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Ensign Nemo]

You seem to be under the false impression that when you buy something you don't control it. In the US there is something called the first sale doctrine which states that when you buy something, you can do whatever you want with it regardless of what the manufacturer wants. If I buy an X-box and run linux on it rather than buying X-box games, MS isn't making any money off of me. Too bad for them but I never signed anything saying I was gonna buy any games for it. It's a risk, but that's part of the game.

Re:Cheat?!?

[drinkypoo]

No, no one can. The Xbox has only one ethernet interface. In order to get more, you must use USB. USB 1.0 or 1.1 or whatever the Xbox uses is craptacular.

Just go get yourself a pentium-class PC and stick two ethernet cards in it. It will be cheaper and better. You don't need the processing power of an Xbox, though my linux router is an athlon 700 because I wanted to run gentoo, and if you're compiling everything on the system, you want some power. Still, I paid $55 for my motherboard and CPU, and slapped a spare 128MB PC100 stick I had lying around onto it. I even had a busted out case and hard disk to install...

Re:Cheat?!?

[SN74S181]

but it's hard to find an old 486 for the same price as an Xbox.

You're right. An old 486 can be had for five or ten dollars, and Xboxes are much higher.

What the hell is your point?

Re:Cheat?!?

[drinkypoo]

Those little routers are terrible. You can't even DCC send through them. Linux lets you do things like write firewall rules based on the content of packets, which the turnkey routers will probably never do.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Tekzel]

Within certain government set safety limits, you can do whatever you want with it. Like someone stated earlier the problem is when you use a hacked version of the Microsoft BIOS on it, that does violate retarded IP laws.

My big problem with this whole discussion is some people seem to be laboring under the misguided conception that just because Microsoft chooses to participate in a market that regularly sells something for less than it costs to make it, on the HOPE that they will make it up on add-ons (software), they have some kind of divine guarantee that those that buy it will actually buy enough games to make it profitable. This is complete and utter garbage. Its pulling the arm on the slot machine. Rolling the dice. They are gambling people. I sob for Microsoft and their R&D investment, I assure you. Let me wipe away a tear here. If I buy an X-Box, which I wont, I will do whatever I want with it. Microsoft can go get humped.

Re:Cheat?!?

[cap'n foolsy]

given their track record... isn't MS just "leasing" this stuff to us, not actually *selling* it? ;)

Re:Cheat?!?

[rtechie]

You probably didn't realise that I happen to live in Sweden, and the shipping might be more than the purchase price. Not all of us live in San Jose you know. ;)

If I watched the classifieds closely for a few months I could probably find such a deal, but I can walk down to the store and get the xbox, a more powerful machine with ethernet and USB already installed, without the wait.

I was in Copenhagen last year and there were a number of small computer stores selling cheap "bare-bones" PCs for about 2000 kroner. I don't imagine the situation is a LOT different in Sweden, but even if it is, Copenhagen is a quick train ride from anywhere in Sweden.

As others have said, I don't think you're really looking very hard.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Arker]

No.

I'm sure they would rather be doing that, but it's still a hardware sale.

Re:Cheat?!?

[Arker]

I could spend around $20 on transport and a day going to Stockholm and searching and probably find a similar deal, yes, but again you're missing the point. A deal like that is still going to need extras before it's sufficient, and cost a little extra for transport and a lot extra in terms of time spent finding it. Time is money, and the xbox I can get in 20 minutes with no fuss, with all the necessary equipment built-in.

Re:Cheat?!?

[rtechie]

I could spend around $20 on transport and a day going to Stockholm and searching and probably find a similar deal, yes, but again you're missing the point. A deal like that is still going to need extras before it's sufficient, and cost a little extra for transport and a lot extra in terms of time spent finding it. Time is money, and the xbox I can get in 20 minutes with no fuss, with all the necessary equipment built-in.

I still think you're better off taking the train to Stockholm and buying a bare-bones PC. I also find it difficult to believe that there aren't discount shops or flea markets where you can get an old PC for $150 USD or less. Especially for a nation as tech-friendly as Sweden.

The fact is that an XBox is expensive enough that it isn't worth buying unless you're going to leverage the most expensive parts of the architecture: the 3D graphics engine, TV out, and 5.1 Dolby sound. A router doesn't need any of that crap. You can use a 486, or virtually anything for a router. I've used an I-Opener, a little hardware router, and old 486, a Dreamcast, etc. and they were all cheaper than an XBox.

You're also forgetting the time that you're going to have to spend modding (read: soldering bits off) the XBox, and the $30 USD you'll have to spend on a USB Ethernet adapter, and whatever a mod chip costs (assuming you need one), probably another $50 USD. With an XBox going for $180 USD wer're talking about $260 USD, not including the cost of tools, etc. that you would need, and the possible shipping costs on the modchip. Is it STILL that much cheaper?

Re:Cheat?!?

[Arker]

I'm not sure if it would be cheaper or not in the end. I am sure that a $150 pc would need adds before being usable though. Memory and NICs at the very least. Guesstimating it it seemed like the xbox would come to about the same price. Remember it's hard to find memory for old pcs these days, and the shops charge more for a dusty old simm than a brand new stick on account of that, at least around here. I hadn't thought about the mod chip, however. Thanks for your input. I'll keep it in mind.

Re:Cheat?!?

[rmohr02]

I believe we should have the right to play on other servers if we do not want to play on the server offered by MS or Blizzard.

"We always pursue those."

[BitwizeGHC]

"Vinnie! Guido! Go 'pursue' the X-Box Linux intellectual property issue. To a satisfactory conclusion."

Goons: "Daaaah, right away, boss! Heehee heheh!"

Re:"We always pursue those."

[Obiwan Kenobi]

Also Known As:

GTA: Redmond

Example Mission:

Drive Bill over to the X-Box Linux Headquarters and wait for him to finish his "business". Then pay off the cops that come by with the trunkful of cash and dump the bodies of the X-Box Linux developers in the lake, after dropping Bill off at headquarters, of course.

MS handheld consoles?

[knightinshiningarmor]

Why would I want a portable blue screen? I get enough of that at home. :)

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[NanoGator]

"Why would I want a portable blue screen? I get enough of that at home. :) "

Ugh. BSOD jokes are so 1998. It's about as funny as somebody saying "Who'd want a Linux portable gaming machine? It'd be a pain in the ass to type 'jump -high' on that little thumbboard."

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[zetokore]

Is there something in slashcode that automatically mods up a post containing the words "blues screen" or do people still think this is funny?

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[Fjord]

You say this like XP doesn't have a BSOD. But I've had it happen to me (repeatedly). It doesn't look like the old BSOD (a darker blue and smaller left-aligned text), but it's still blue and it still occurs when the system dies.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[DavidBrown]

Why would I want a portable blue screen? I get enough of that at home. :)

As amusing as this is, your message just struck me that since I installed XP, I haven't seen the Blue Screen Of Death, except maybe once, and that's over the course of a couple of years with my computers at home and another 16 at the office.

Except for my crash-happy HP notebook. Right now, I'm still blaming HP for that.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[arose]

Uninformed Windows users find it stupid. They think Windows XP is the epitome of Windows stability, like 95/98/ME never existed.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[NanoGator]

"That is wrong, as well as the statement claiming that NT/2K/XP is free of BSODs."

What you're saying is completely wrong. I never made a statement that NT/2K/or XP is BSOD free. What I was saying was that they were DRASTICALLY more stable than 95/98/ME. If you're going to argue with me, at least make an attempt to understand what I was saying.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"It doesn't look like the old BSOD (a darker blue and smaller left-aligned text), but it's still blue and it still occurs when the system dies."

I think his point is that the system dying bit doesn't happen very often. I've had my laptop since early December, I still haven't seen a blue-screen on it. Not bad seeing as how I play games on it.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[Rob Simpson]

I've gotten plenty of individual apps crashing, but the only blue screen I've seen with XP was "unmountable boot volume" after fiddling with some registry settings. Setting LargeSystemCache to =1 is a bad idea. Fortunately, I was able to burn everything on \mnt\nt to a bunch of cds under Linux. (Weirdly, the installer for Windows couldn't make any sense out of its own partition and had to reformat it.)

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[the gnat]

My boss has a top-of-the-line Dell workstation running XP, and it craps out all the time - we've had to do hard reboots in the past. There really isn't anything nonstandard about it, though he's installed so much software on it that god knows what instabilities have been introduced. At any rate, we haven't been very impressed. Meanwhile, my mom's laptop needs a complete reinstall, because it has gradually become slower and slower. XP certainly doesn't seem immune to the problems with decay that have plagued past versions of Windows.

Even 2000 didn't have that many bluescreens, and XP does seem better in this regard. However, I remember the first time I saw Sony's 16" Vaio was walking past a storefront in NYC. I looked in, and saw the Vaio sitting there bluescreened. Nice advertising, guys.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[Bert64]

It`s also disabled by default since win2k, the system will instantly reboot instead of displaying the blue screen.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[Idimmu Xul]

Remind them that you still can't undelete a file in Linux.

You can undelete with Ext2 but not with Ext3. Something to do with Ext3 actually deleting the node, and Ext2 just deleting the reference to the node.

Unfortunatly, I found this out the hardway the other day.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[SiChemist]

It`s also disabled by default since win2k, the system will instantly reboot instead of displaying the blue screen.

And what a brilliant idea that was. I had to work on a Win2k machine that would spontaneously reboot on bootup instead of displaying a nice (ok ugly) error message. It took forever to figure out what went wrong with that thing!

Why would they do that anyway? To hide the infamous blue screen they got so much grief over?

Lastly, I find it amusing that some people praise Win 2K/XP for its stability over previous versions of windows. Give me a break! Compared to Windows ME, Lizzie Borden would seem a paragon of stability.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[ExCEPTION]

The name of the new handheld console
Microsoft Blue Baby

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[mcc]

It's about as funny as somebody saying "Who'd want a Linux portable gaming machine? It'd be a pain in the ass to type 'jump -high' on that little thumbboard."

Actually.. that's pretty funny.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[Anonvmous Coward]

"Actually.. that's pretty funny."

Ha! Yeah that was pretty funny. Too bad NG got modded as flamebait for making a rather astute observation. Humor's in the eye of the beholder. If Linux zealots can't take the heat, maybe they should put down their stale BSOD jokes. (Or just go pick on Mac users, they like it.)

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[NanoGator]

"Lastly, I find it amusing that some people praise Win 2K/XP for its stability over previous versions of windows. Give me a break! Compared to Windows ME, Lizzie Borden would seem a paragon of stability. "

Well, to be fair, I have reason to praise Win2k. I've had 3 Win2k machines over the years I've used to do 3D rendering. I have not lost a project or a rendering to Windows instability. The only blue screens I've had happened when I first built my latest machine. For some reason, dual athlon + Sound Blaster Audigy + Winamp = crash. Stopped using Winamp, now it's working great. It's always up when I come in on Monday, even after a 'during the weekend' render.

The short story is that I've been able to rely on it on various machines (I use it at home too, mainly for gaming.) without BSODs or instabilities. I do have to reboot once every couple of weeks, though I think that's more of a result of having Outlook open for too long. It likes to take out explorer.

Perfect? Nope. But my opinion's based on beating up my machine pretty hard. Most of my company was running Win2k and my coworkers weren't having problems either. (I'm the Win2k guru there so I'm the one who gets to fix problems with those machines.)

I'm not just blindly praising 2k here, I've got many of hour supporting my appreciation of it.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[Stonent1]

If they make a portable, it'll probably be in the 300-400mhz range or so (xscale maybe?) running modified CE no doubt. At that point it will be way beyond the 100$ price point of the game boy series. As it was said in a previous article. Microsoft prefers to "eat their own dog food" So it will be running CE. It'll need a lot more ram than the GBA probably 16MB preferably 32MB if they want any room for a game. Now comes the problem of distributing the games. In order to do things the MS way, it'll need to be copy protected and they'll need a way to save game progress. Now they need a new interface for this game than what is anything standard to keep people from trying to hack their way into the game media. It sounds like a real hassle at this point. I'd bet an MD cart would make a decent game format but it would be far from ideal for MS to license the MD technology from Sony. Anyway those were just some of my observations.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[yuri benjamin]

Remind them that you still can't undelete a file in Linux.
Are we talking GUI or CLI? gnome and kde both have trashcans.
When I drop into a CLI and type rm -rf ~/.mozilla/yuri/2qfwauei/Cache I want it to stay deleted. Better still I use shred, which overwrites 35 times before deleting.

If I want to maybe delete something but not sure if I might want it back, I drag it to the trashcan. I never drag to the trashcan.

I have had interesting looks through the recycle bins on friends' windows boxen. Explorer cache pr0n, hmmm.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[ncc74656]

Except for my crash-happy HP notebook. Right now, I'm still blaming HP for that.

Mine works just fine...but then the first thing I did was nuke the hard drive and do a clean install of Win2K and my apps to get rid of whatever crap HP preloaded on it. Running with the vendor-preloaded software is asking for trouble.

(Years ago, someone had me look at his brand-new Compaq notebook because even though it had a relatively fast (for the time) processor, it was still dog-slow. After tracking down all the necessary drivers, I nuked it and did a clean Win98 install. That got it running like it should...the difference was like night and day.)

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[eatdave13]

If you can't undelete a file in Linux... you're not very good at Linux.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[drinkypoo]

As amusing as this is, your message just struck me that since I installed XP, I haven't seen the Blue Screen Of Death, except maybe once, and that's over the course of a couple of years with my computers at home and another 16 at the office.

That's because XP is so fast that the BSOD loads and is terminated in less time than it takes to refresh the screen.

I haven't seen the BSOD either but my XP box has rebooted itself three or four times without displaying any debug information whatsoever, which is considerably more annoying. While most of the information on the BSOD is useless even to a programmer, sometimes it would give you enough information to find out what component(s) was/were involved in the crash.

Re:MS handheld consoles?

[SN74S181]

Actually, to be pedantic about it, the Blue Screen of Death only occured on Windows NT. What a lot of less savvy people refer to as a 'BSOD' on Windows 9x machines is a blue-background error message unrelated to the real BSOD. The BSOD is a blue-background 'crash' screen which featured error messages and a binary dump of some memory for debug purposes. I on occasion was able to use the info on a BSOD (on NT 4.0) to figure out what caused the crash and correct it.

Many of the people who drop comments about a BSOD never ran NT and really have no clue what they're talking about.

intellectual property issue.....

[PS-SCUD]

and we always pursue those.

Yes, far be it from you to let a great injustice, like someone using their Xbox how they see fit, from going unpunished.

Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[theodp]

In one breath, "For example, we can sense and disable an Xbox modified with third party "modchips" and not allow it to play online." In the next, "Telling us what we can or can't create, we think is unconstitutional."

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[wfrp01]

Wow, that's beautiful.

As a citizen of the United States of America, we can expect to have certain rights. As employees/customers of an American corporation, we can expect diddley. And according to Microsoft, that's just the way it should be. The guy at least deserves credit for being forthright about where things stand.

It's not just Microsoft, though. We live in a democracy. We have a free market. Nonetheless, corporations whose modus operandi resembles that of a feudal fiefdom by and large dominate our working lives. And when we leave work, we owe them our allegiance as 'customers'.

But who cares? We all have bread on the table. A glass of wine. A Tivo. A comfortable chair.

Society today is as hierarchical, class-based, and inequitable as ever. Perhaps more so. The only reason people aren't storming the castles with pitchforks is that they're too busy watching TV. That's the scary part. Seems to me that things are just getting worse and worse, but nobody cares. Why should they?

The reason why, of course, is that they deserve better. And if wealth was distributed more equitably, they would have better. But people are just too damn content to agitate for change.

So Bill Gates will continue to bitch-slap mod-chippers, all the while crying about his constitutional 'right' to do what he wants. Asshole.

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[Teflik]

You don't have to buy an X-Box. You don't have to have the latest cellphone. You don't have to watch TV.

And no, these aren't fundamental necesseties in life.

As long as I can buy commoditiy hardware, put it together and install Linux (or *BSD or whatever) on it, I'm not worried. (I am worried that that may change...)

It's unfortunate that there are so many chumps out there who so willingly take it in that ass from big corporations. But none of us are required to.

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[aliens]

Why do they deserve better? They're not clamoring, they're not fighting, or at least the masses aren't.

It's easy to forgot very recently our ancestors had conditions that pale compared to us. At least here in the USA things are pretty peachy compared to feudal times. The beds most sleep on and the "bare minimums"(TV, reading, Music) at times exceed what the richest had back several hundred years ago.

Imagine telling your great great great grandfather you sleep on a matress with bedspring, have access to limitless books, and music can be heard anytime anywhere.

Can things get better? Yes, not everyone in the world lives like people here in the US, but most people don't care or think about it.

I'm glad there are those here that do, it will be us who will work to set things right. But I do not foresee having any help from others.

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh give me a fucking break. That's like going off on some "unconstitutional" rant on id Software for checksumming their Quake 3 map files.

Of course you can modchip your X-Box, put Linux on it, smash it with a sledgehammer painted red with a chrome finish, whatever the hell you want -- you own it.

You can't expect to get access to someone else's service after you've violated the entry point. It's not your service, it's theirs, and they can lock you out whenever they want to, for whatever reason they want to. Get over it.

Go rant about something that matters, like the Patriot Act.

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[eatdave13]

Things are getting worse and worse? You fucking moron. When's the last time you couldn't find potable water, died of starvation or malaria or punemonia at 20, had your children taken as slaves, been forced to fight in a colloseum, been where to live, or had your wife raped by your senator and there was nothing you could do about it? Jesus Christ you selfish beatnick retard, please just remove yourself from our society if you think we've treated you so unfairly, you're allowed to do that here.

The people that REALLY have it bad, who are told to burn their farms, who are moved out of their homes because it's somebody else's country now, who's families were murdered by their governments, those people ARE storming the castles with pitforks, or they will soon. You think those Eastern continents are so violent for no reason? They really have it bad, you're just some whiney little fuck that's pissed because it's someone else in charge instead of you. Go die.

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[wfrp01]

I should have been more articulate. Our standard of living is not getting worse and worse. That's not what I said. Class disparity, the degree of control people have over their own lives, the rich running things, the rest of us tagging along - that's what's getting worse. And the problem is people like you, who believe that as long as nobody is shooting at you it's all well and good to stick your thumb up your ass and watch your Tivo. The problem is people like you, who are unable to imagine anything could be better.

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[CommieLib]

Hang on a second...let's get real.

Society today is as hierarchical, class-based, and inequitable as ever. Perhaps more so. The only reason people aren't storming the castles with pitchforks is that they're too busy watching TV. That's the scary part. Seems to me that things are just getting worse and worse, but nobody cares. Why should they?

Let's consider for a second that we're talking about a fricking video game console. If you really believe that because Microsoft has some influence over whether you can run Linux or install modchips on an XBox, Society today is as hierarchical, class-based, and inequitable as ever, perhaps more so, you're just fricking nuts. At least, you lack some real historical perspective. I think our generation (in the West) lacks real repression so we tend to blow trivial crap like this up to galactic proportions.

Oh and by the way, wealth is not "distributed", it is created. The sum of wealth today is more than 100 years ago. It had to come from somewhere, no matter how you cut up the pie.

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[drinkypoo]

You, my friend, are not my friend. Because you are an idiot. Microsoft isn't telling you what you can or can not create by any means. They are telling you that as per the TOS of Xbox live which you agree to when you sign up, you may not use a non-spec Xbox with Xbox Live. They don't tell you what you can or can not create. Well, I take that back, I'm sure the EULA says you can't modify the hardware, but they don't say that in their speeches.

What they do say is, because a modified Xbox could be used to cheat (it is not hard to imagine how) they don't allow you to connect to Xbox Live with a modified Xbox. I find this to be completely reasonable. If you don't, you clearly do not have an understanding of the technical issues involved. While it's true that there are ways to cheat which do not involve modifying the Xbox so that you can run modified code on it (aimbots, radar) it certainly would make it a lot easier. Microsoft knows how easy it is to add cheat code to PC games, and the Xbox is after all just a small legacy-free PC.

Hence you are a FUD-spreading troll. You are engaging in the fashionable activity of talking shit about Microsoft for things which are completely reasonable. Next you'll be telling us how using hacked Xbox BIOS instead of Cromwell Linux Xbox BIOS is our god-given right. The law disagrees. I mean, I'll do it anyway when I get me a hacked Xbox, I don't want to do it to my new one which has a warranty :)

Re:Your Rights Vs. Microsoft's

[zero_offset]

Assuming you're American like me, we live in a republic, not a democracy.

Re:Not to be a whiny bitch

[Ezdaloth]

Till now canada.com works well. Oh, maybe it's because the story just online for a minute or so.

Xbox handheld?

[jolyonr]

Well, if Microsoft did an Xbox handheld, you'd need a damn strong right hand to hold it. Still, I guess if the market is adolescent makes, requiring a strong right hand isn't a problem.

Related: XBOX-2 info

[Frederique Coq-Bloqu]

Apparently the highly anticipated XBOX-2 will not carry an nVidia graphics chipset. I must inject my opinion that, the way the GeForce 5 cards exist in their bulky and unoptimised state (can you say leafblower?) make me glad that Microsoft may be going with ATI or having a custom chip made for it. I know I could definitely do without heatsink-enabled RAM.

X-box = computer

[jr87]

Xbox=computer Handheld = PDA just something to think about

Handheld Possibilities

[agg123456789]

With the emergence of smaller form factor PCs like the oqo it really does not seem SO far fetched that MS might introduce a handheld gaming system.

However, it seems that absolutly everyone is entering the market including Nokia and sony.

Does MS really want to fight it out with sony on the handheld platform, when they have been utterly beaten on the console one?

Regardless, since it would probably be based on x86 hardware, it might make an excelent portable linux system ;)!

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[ceejayoz]

they have been utterly beaten on the console [platform]

I'm curious as to how you consider going from 0% market share to 20% market share, beating out the formerly #2 player (Nintendo) to be "utterly beaten" in the console market?

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

And to add... look how long Ninendo was kicking sony's ass before that turned around.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Malcontent]

Because 20% doesn't count for shit in that industry. Nobody wants to write games for 20% of the market just like hardawre manufacturers don't want to drive drivers for linux.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Imperial Tacohead]

Market share only counts for so much. I'm sure Nintendo is perfectly happy to be beaten, given that they're actually making money, whereas Microsoft has been bleeding money and still, despite superior hardware, can't seem to get an upper hand on Sony.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[ceejayoz]

Nintendo's gotten along just fine selling to small portion of the market. Apple's another fine example of a niche market.

Not only that, but 20% is a pretty good amount for a new product introduced in competition with a very popular system with a large install base. Xbox has exceeded MS's hopes for the first iteration of the system.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[NortWind]

I'm curious as to how you consider going from 0% market share to 20% market share, beating out the formerly #2 player (Nintendo) to be "utterly beaten" in the console market?

Compare either Nintendo's or Sony's profits to MS's loss of $300M (claimed by MS in the article for division) or loss of $1B (as claimed in PC World article). The other two companies made more than infinitely more than MS. That's a pretty good beat down.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[ceejayoz]

I'm sure Nintendo is perfectly happy to be beaten, given that they're actually making money, whereas Microsoft has been bleeding money and still, despite superior hardware, can't seem to get an upper hand on Sony.

MS fully expected to lose money on the Xbox to get a foothold - when Gates approved the Xbox, he was told that MS might lose up to $3.3 billion in the first couple years. Given that they make $10 billion profit a year and have $40 billion cash on hand, they can easily absorb the losses.

Costs are coming down - the average loss on an Xbox console is somewhere between $50 and $100, way down from the $150 loss on launch. Xbox has the highest number of games purchased per console out of the three consoles.

Basically, Xbox is doing better than MS expected. It's not going away anytime soon.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[ceejayoz]

If MS had expected to make a profit on the Xbox, then yes, it could be considered a disaster. MS expected to lose billions - that's the only way for them to muscle in on an established market.

Same thing Amazon.com does - lose a lot of money establishing a store, then use the eventual profits for that store to branch out into new products. No one's calling Amazon.com "utterly beaten" despite their cash losses (well, except for those who predicted Amazon's demise in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and will continue to do so).

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[gergi]

Um... only in the US is the XBox #2 in sales. Worldwide, #2 in sales is Nintendo.

That being said, I'm completely amazed at what people will pay and tolerate to be able to play uh, hmm... *goes to go look up a name of a game for the XBox*... Halo.

One thing I will say about the XBox. It's amazing what pumping an endless amount of money into something can do to grab marketshare.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Imperial Tacohead]

My point was that Nintendo is playing a different game from Microsoft; the only sense in which MS is "beating" Nintendo is market share. The XBox may be around for a while, but Nintendo will still exist when all that's left on this Earth are cockroaches.

By the way, where do your get the idea that the XBox is doing better than MS expected? Were MS's expectations really that low? It seems that it's doing just about as badly as everyone else expected (perhaps a little bit better) but still getting drubbed by Sony, which still sells (last I heard) three times as many PS2s as MS sells XBoxes. I think MS had higher expectations than that. It wasn't too long ago that Sony itself broke into the market when it had two well-established players and cornered the sucker.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Anonymous Coward]

If MS had expected to make a profit on the Xbox, then yes, it could be considered a
disaster. MS expected to lose billions - that's the only way for them to muscle in on an established market.

well of course they would say that. they wouldnt be saying the same if the xbox overtook the ps2.no, they would be boasting about how they EXPECTED it to win. Since that didn't happen their PR waffle now is just microsofts way of saving face. The Xbox unperformed spectacularly, so much so that their estimates for the number sold in its first year of launching in the US DID NOT REMOTELY MEET EXPECTATIONS. In Australasia, microsoft set aside 30,000 to go between Australia and NZ, guess how many sold in the first 3 months of launch? less than 1500. sales only picked up when microsfot HALVED the price of the console. For the ones stupid enough to have got it at launch, micosoft gave them free games but hey there were only a few people they needed to give it to. In japan it is bombing really badly. For months after lunaching there, sonys older console the psone was sellng quicker than xboxs. Things have picked up a little but overall its sales are extremely low compared to the NGC and PS2.

the xbox is a disaster
1. the controller is huge and unergonomical.despite what they say about doing all that research.
2. Their attempt to make a platform which would only run licensed code was quickly broken. back to the drawing board for them and their DRM
3. they have lost billions and will continue to do so
4. the heart of the xboxs power, the gpu is made by nvidia (along with the motherboard, spu, nic) and they have already announced they wont be working with microsofts xbox2
5. sales are NOT meeting expectations

good luck to microsoft the only way they are going to make a significant impact on the industry is if they pull some illegal practices which wouldnt be new to them.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[dirk]

By the way, where do your get the idea that the XBox is doing better than MS expected? Were MS's expectations really that low? It seems that it's doing just about as badly as everyone else expected (perhaps a little bit better) but still getting drubbed by Sony, which still sells (last I heard) three times as many PS2s as MS sells XBoxes. I think MS had higher expectations than that. It wasn't too long ago that Sony itself broke into the market when it had two well-established players and cornered the sucker.

MS figured to lose lots of money on the X-Box. They were entering a new market with zero following for themselves. They were a year behind the PS2, which already had a huge number of games out. But they had to release something to keep Sony from taking over the market completely. They new they would lose with the X-Box, simply because the PS2 started out so far ahead. But what they did was get their name out, and start to develop a following. People now know the X-Box, and have seen what it can do (which is pretty impressive). When they release the X-Box2, it will be around the same time Sony releases the PS3 (or maybe even before). This will let them battle it out on more even footing, and that is when the real battle will be. If they hadn't of released the X-Box, Sony would have completely dominated the markket and it would have been damn near impossible to release a system.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Imperial Tacohead]

It seems to me that if Microsoft releases the XBox2 at the same time as the PS3, it will be competing on less even footing than it currently is. Microsoft's big advantage is technology right now; how well will it fare when it's competing against an equally capable system? Sure, now MS has brand recognition, but as Sega will tell you, that and a quarter is enough to get you a gumball.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Malcontent]

" Nintendo's gotten along just fine selling to small portion of the market. Apple's another fine example of a niche market."

You said it. Xbox is a niche market in game consoles.

" Xbox has exceeded MS's hopes for the first iteration of the system."

First of all you have no way of knowing what their expectations are. I doubt very much that the biggest, richest most powerful computing company headed by the worlds richect man, with 40 billion dollars in the bank and a worlwide monopoly in the desktop market set 20% as their market penetration goal.

By MS standards they failed miserably in this field. I don't think there is one person inside MS saying that 20% "exceeded our expectations".

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[ceejayoz]

First of all you have no way of knowing what their expectations are.

Other than them stating their expectations in articles linked to by Slashdot?

I doubt very much that the biggest, richest most powerful computing company headed by the worlds richect man, with 40 billion dollars in the bank and a worlwide monopoly in the desktop market set 20% as their market penetration goal.

For a first entry into the market, that's a fairly ambitious goal against two very well entrenched competitors. Microsoft may be vicious in the business world, but that by no means makes them idiots - MS knows that they're not going to beat PS2 with the Xbox - it's PS3 vs. Xbox2 where the real battle will be fought.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Malcontent]

"Other than them stating their expectations in articles linked to by Slashdot?"

Sources please. Any quote by a MS executive after the release of Xbox does not count.

"For a first entry into the market, that's a fairly ambitious goal against two very well entrenched competitors."

It would be if it was any other company in the world. MS is not any other company. Their cash reserves are more then most companies revenues.

"Microsoft may be vicious in the business world, but that by no means makes them idiots"

Microsoft is not only vicious but also immoral and unethical. MS employees are not bound by the same ethical and moral standards you and I are. This is one of the side effects of hiring people who think "outside the box". Those people don't have the same concept of good and evil as you and me. Of course they are not stupid. They are very smart people.

Smart and evil people don't ever think of setting goals for themselves that entail 20% of the market.

BTW the Xbox is not designed to beat PS/2. It's designed to lock the consumer into other MS products and to force people to buy MS only games, MS only movies, MS only music etc. MS can not do this without a 90+ percent market share in Xbox. An Xbox which fails to get a monopoly is failure for MS. Without that monopoly they will not be able to force people to buy MS media.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Babbster]

You're making the assumption that Sony will have the best technology they can put into a box when the PS3 hits. The fact is that there were features the PS2 should have had - most notably, hardware anti-aliasing - that it didn't. Furthermore, with the architecture that MS is working with they can leave, for example, a decision about CPU speed until the "last minute" (the last minute meaning six months before launch). Since Sony goes with their own propietary hardware, the chances of them even coming within 20% of the Xbox2 in terms of raw speed are slim to none.

All that being said, the winner of the next generation - if they all get out within a month of each other - will be the one who has the games people want to play. Sony should have a built-in advantage because of the sheer volume of developers making Playstation games but they proved with their PS2 launch that they have no qualms about releasing a console with a piss-poor launch lineup. Frankly, Microsoft and Nintendo didn't do much better.

If they're smart, all three companies will already be courting developers (or using in-house people) to work on launch titles for their next generation. Considering the lead time required to develop a top-shelf video game, waiting could end up badly hurting the first-year sales in the next generation.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[euxneks]

is entering the market including Nokia and sony.

Sony's handheld is called the PSP.

Official Announcement here

Just thought people would like toknow

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[BlameFate]

But all the projections for Xbox pre-launch were based on te original PlayStation business model. Come in hard, fast and agressive and corner the sucker.

I unfortunately can;t find any quotes at the moment, but it was a big part of the pre-launch hype. And it just hasn;t happened.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Morgahastu]

Microsoft never expected to make a profit off the first generation of their console.

They are willing to sell it below cost in order to get a strangle hold on the market in the future.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[NortWind]

Microsoft never expected to make a profit off the first generation of their console.

That's true. However, just because you expect to get a beat down doesn't make it any less of a beat down when you get it. I'm sure that if they succeed in killing off all the other console makers that their profitability in this market will improve considerably. :-)

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[drinkypoo]

You don't have to write games for Xbox. You can target games at x86/Win32/DirectX and make them run on Xbox or PC as necessary. Making them run on the Xbox requires only some tuning, and you only have to tune it once since all Xboxes are the same, except for hacked ones, which can't play on Live. Since over 100 Live-enabled games are supposed to come out over the next year, I think it's safe to say that Live is the bread and butter...

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[drinkypoo]

They have money to burn. If their only intent at this time is to gain market share (20% is pretty healthy for such a short period of time) and to damage the bottom line of other companies (which they have done, however slightly) then it was a complete success.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[tshak]

MS is not any other company. Their cash reserves are more then most companies revenues.


So Sony, a multibillion dollar corporation who used it's cash to push Sega out of the industry, and who squashed Nintendo's marketshare, can't compete with MS?

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[drinkypoo]

Smart and evil people don't ever think of setting goals for themselves that entail 20% of the market.

I don't know if you noticed this, but 20% lies in between 0% and 100%. As such you can consider it an interim step between nothingness (Where M$ was in the gaming market only recently) and total world domination.

Thank you, please drive through.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[fredrik70]

Xbox has the highest number of games purchased per console out of the three consoles.

any sources for this?
Capcom's sales of GC games exceeded their expectations, but xbox's sales disapointed: source here

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Obiwan Kenobi]

Nintendo is making most of its money on its Gameboy business. Which is why Sony is getting into that market, and soon Microsoft.

Of course, they "only" made over 570 million this past fiscal year, and that was looked up as a disappointment.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[ceejayoz]

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-945834.html

Xbox game sales have been unusually strong, however, with Microsoft tallying more than 20 million Xbox titles sold worldwide, an average of almost five games per console. Typical "attach rates" in the game industry are about three games per console in a system's first year.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Malcontent]

"So Sony, a multibillion dollar corporation who used it's cash to push Sega out of the industry, and who squashed Nintendo's marketshare, can't compete with MS?"

That's right. Sony does not have a monopoly in anything, Sony does not have 40 billion in cash, sony does not own the president.

In fact sony is on the ropes financially now. Maybe it's temporary I don't know but the strain of competing with MS is already cracking sony apart.

MS is able to kill any company on the planet anytime they want. Bill Gates is the most powerful human being on the plant.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[fredrik70]

Could be because XBox (at least in the UK) comes with 3 titles when you buy it. Oh well, stand corrected. Regarding actual amount of games sold, I found this article, Not a very bright one regarding GC (funny though, they don't even mention XBox in the article ;-), but they do mention the number 46 million sold games (link

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[tshak]

fyi: I absoultely love your sig.

MS is able to kill any company on the planet anytime they want. Bill Gates is the most powerful human being on the plant.


Right, so we should just fine them $30B so that it's more "fair". First off, MS can't just "dump" money into the XBox. This will piss off shareholders because it's their money that's being dumped, and MS is liable. Second, Sony has quite a bit of cash, and is not on any financial ropes right now. Sure, they're barely profiting $1B a year, which isn't great considering the size of their company. But they have a lot of pull from a lot of different industries. And sure, they don't have a monopoly on anything, but so what? MS's monopolies have little relevance for the console industry. Also, a lot of people on /. seem to think that having a monopoly means that you're effectively put in a coma as a company. True, there are special restrictions for having a monopoly, but not many. It is perfectly legal (and ethical IMHO) for MS to pursue the console industry. If MS started to package the XBox with Windows, effectively "forcing" people to buy an XBox, than you'd have a point. But that's not hapening.

MS is able to kill any company on the planet anytime they want.

If this was true, Apple, IBM, Sony, and a slew of other companies would not be in existance. The fact of the matter is, IBM alone is a much large company than Microsoft, and $40B in cash couldn't even start to buy that company.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Malcontent]

Right, so we should just fine them $30B so that it's more "fair""

It would be a more just punishment then they got. If you don't want to fine them then break them apart so that it's impossible for them to subsidize non monoploy products with monopoly profits.

"First off, MS can't just "dump" money into the XBox. This will piss off shareholders because it's their money that's being dumped, and MS is liable. "

This is patently false. A handful of people control the majority of MS stock. These people all follow Bill Gates like some sort of a messianic figure. None one of the major MS stock holders would for one instant question Bill Gates when it comes to MS strategy.

"Sony has quite a bit of cash, and is not on any financial ropes right now. Sure, they're barely profiting $1B a year, which isn't great considering the size of their company."

Bingo. Sony makes 1 billion per year, Ms has 40 billion in cash. Does that seem like a fair fight? I don't think so.

"And sure, they don't have a monopoly on anything, but so what? MS's monopolies have little relevance for the console industry."
It has all the relevance in the world. MS can subsidize money losing products with their monopoly profits.

"It is perfectly legal (and ethical IMHO) for MS to pursue the console industry."

It's illegal do practice "dumping" especially for a monopoly. In this case MS gets away with it because they own the president and the attorney general.

"If this was true, Apple, IBM, Sony, and a slew of other companies would not be in existance."

MS prevented apple from going under by "investing" in them when they desparately needed money. MS did this because they needed a a "competitor" to point to during the trial. Sony will survive but not in any field in which it's competing with MS.

"The fact of the matter is, IBM alone is a much large company than Microsoft, and $40B in cash couldn't even start to buy that company."

IBM survived by getting out of any industry in which MS has a monoply. They shifted their business so that they were not competing with MS.

It's impossible to compete with a monopoly especially MS.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[tshak]

[$30B fine] would be a more just punishment then they got.

So the moral of the story is, don't become too successful in the US. Remember that the courts could never prove that MS got all of that money or their monopoly illegally, rather, simply that they were trying to hang on to that monopoly using questionable tactics (the stupid IE fiasco not being one of them). Personally, if MS did not stop it's strong-armed OEM practice, I would have started really pusing for some legal rememdy. But again those practices helped keep their monopoly in place, but did not help earn their monopoly.

Bingo. Sony makes 1 billion per year, Ms has 40 billion in cash. Does that seem like a fair fight? I don't think so.


Apply the same analogy to Nintendo and Sony. Sony flooded the market place with tons of marketing and pushed Nintendo out of it's Final Fantasy licensing by give Square a better "deal". Sony's equity is 3 times that of nintendo's, and Microsoft's equity is a little less than 3 times that of Sony's, so the comparison is perfect. Business isn't communism - everybody doesn't get an equal lump sum to start a venture.

Sony has its hands in almost everything electronic, and because of that it was able to not only out-invest Nintendo, but also manufacture and design the electronics for a lot cheaper.

And stop comparing MS's cash reserves. As much as it is (and it is a LOT!), MS's business is different than a corp. like Sony's. Sony OWNES a lot (to the tune of $80B worth of assets). Many companies only keep about 10% cash (sony has about 7.5B). In Sony's case, they own manufacturing plants, huge product lines, and the like. MS, on the other hand, is a software company that doesn't need all of that infrustructure, and their accountants decided to keep more cash than usual. Microsoft's total assets are about $75B - $5B less than Sony (MS is still worth ~2.8x more in Equity because they have less debt).

It's illegal do practice "dumping" especially for a monopoly.

There's nothing "especially" about it. Regardless of whethor or not you're a monopoly, it's illegal. What MS is doing, however, is not product dumping. Having a loss-leader (like every other console on the market) is legit business. Futhermore, MS has the highest attach rate (accesseries and games sold, etc.) with the XBox, so it makes more money per console sold than Nintendo or Sony. The only reason MS has not profited on the XBox, is because it can't touch the volume of Sony because of Sony's incredible market presence, and because the R&D of a "first of kind" product for a company is huge, and will take until the second generation (at least, which is usual) to realize an ROI.

IBM survived by getting out of any industry in which MS has a monoply.

The only area they pulled out of was the desktop OS, in which IBM was competing BEFORE MS had a Monopoly. And no matter how many stories you hear about MS "screwing over IBM", the bottom line is, many people (myself included) lost HD's to OS/2 Warp. So, let's be thankful that today we have OS X and Linux as great and good alternatives respectively. Apple, that small company that MS "saved", is competing just fine. And speaking of IBM, it has been consitantly out-profiting MS to the tune of $1-$2B or more per QUARTER. Food for thought.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Malcontent]

"So the moral of the story is, don't become too successful in the US."

Uh Oh I am talking to moron. Ok I'll try and keep this simple so that even you can understand it.

1) It's possible to make money without being evil.
2) It's not illegal to be successful.
3) It's not illegal to have a monopoly.
4) It is illegal to have a monopoly and abuse that monopoly.
5) convicted criminals should be punished and the punishment should not be "here make more money".

I hope that was simple enough for you to understand.

"Apply the same analogy to Nintendo and Sony. Sony flooded the market place with tons of marketing and pushed Nintendo out of it's Final Fantasy licensing by give Square a better "deal". Sony's equity is 3 times that of nintendo's, and Microsoft's equity is a little less than 3 times that of Sony's, so the comparison is perfect. Business isn't communism - everybody doesn't get an equal lump sum to start a venture"

Once again you exhibit (you might have to look that word up) a profound lack of understanding. Sony does not have a monopoly so therefore it was legal for them to do that. It's not illegal to compete, it's not illegal to play hardball, it's not illegal to use your resources except when you are a monopoly.

"Having a loss-leader (like every other console on the market) is legit business. "

Apparently you also don't know the difference between a loss leader and dumping but to be honest I just don't feel like explaining to you. Suffice it to say MS loses money on MOST of their products. That's a luxury monopolies have that other companies don't. Because of the price gauging on their monopoly products they can subsidize money losing products.

"many people (myself included) lost HD's to OS/2 Warp. "

Boo fucking Hoo. How many hard drives were lost to windows since 3.1? What the fuck does that have anything to do with anything. MS screwed IBM on OS/2 and everybody knows this. They are a bunch of sleazeball scum. IBM was but one company to get stabbed in the back by Bill Gates. The man has no morals.

"Apple, that small company that MS "saved", is competing just fine. "

Like you said a niche market.

"And speaking of IBM, it has been consitantly out-profiting MS to the tune of $1-$2B or more per QUARTER. Food for thought."

Only by getting out of markets where MS is (like I said). It's impossible to compete against a monopoly and IBM knows this.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[tshak]

Your insulting of my intelligence has shown that this is a complete waste of time. Guess what, you are a criminal when you speed - you shouldn't be allowed to make money either. I thought your sig made you out be an insightful person, but now I see you're simply a fundamentalist: you don't respect the complexity of the MS issue, the level of subjectivity involved, and you're quick to judge. Reread your sig in a way that truely understands the radical nature of Christ - when understood correctly it's quite profound.

Re:Handheld Possibilities

[Malcontent]

" Your insulting of my intelligence has shown that this is a complete waste of time"

It was entirely called for. You exhibit (did you look that word up?) profound ignorance about the MS case.

"Guess what, you are a criminal when you speed - you shouldn't be allowed to make money either."

The punishment should fit the crime. When I speed I get a ticket, I don't get the death penalty and the cops don't give me money. MS did not get punished at all. It was as if MS got caught speeding and the govt bought them a porche.

"but now I see you're simply a fundamentalist: you don't respect the complexity of the MS issue"

You don't even understand the issue. You keep mixing crimes and punishments and making money vs abusing a monopoly.

Pr0n from MS?

[teslatug]

I don't know if N.U.D.E. will be available outside Japan, off the top of my head. A lot of the new content you will see is more interactive, social community...people want a competitive but fun social experience and we are experimenting with a lot of new concepts like project N.U.D.E.

I just hope they don't borrow from Clippy's personality...although, in this case, hmmm...

I see you're trying to beat off. Would you like a hand with that?

Microsoft Wants Patent For Denying Online Services

[theodp]

Here's Microsoft's patent application that covers disallowing participation in online services.

Xbox as a pure console

[Ezdaloth]

Why is it, that people always post big stories about the XboX ? I don't see nearly as much stories about the PS/2. I guess as soon as it is from microsoft, it's bad ... GET A LIFE ! Microsoft is just some big company. All big companies do bad things. That you are stupid enough to buy their stuff, that is your fault. They also do good things. Maybe it's not 'cool' to say good things about them. Eike Dehling (be nice to my desktop machine, i sleep next to it)

Re:Xbox as a pure console

[dr.newton]

Maybe you've forgotten that the Xbox can be made to run (almost) standard linux distros. For me, that set it apart from the other consoles more than being from microsoft. Anyway, if they're selling at a loss, I don't mind buying. :)

Re:Xbox as a pure console

[djNocturne]

> Why is it, that people always post big stories about the XboX ?

We enjoy reading various Xbox insiders talk about overtaking PS2 for the very same reason that we enjoying reading posts with extraneous commas and random capitalization: It's comedy gold.

> I don't see nearly as much stories about the PS/2

I almost bit on that one. I was about to waste precious time laying down an array of PlayStation-related story links, such as the recent announcement of a Sony handheld, several scattered tech notes on the architectural changes planned for the PS3, and the numerous obligatory PS2 hacks and mods.

> I guess as soon as it is from microsoft, it's bad ...

Of course not. I, for one, always assume that anything from M$ is remarkably stable and well-designed, and that their behavior in any given market keeps the associated industry vibrant and consumer-friendly.

There's not enough room in my head to store useless information, so I never bother with silly things like "historical perspective." That's why I
buy all of my Iomega gear at Best Buy, which I then promptly install on my SCO box; because, hey, every company deserves an amnesiac consumer base, right?

> GET A LIFE ! Microsoft is just some big company. All big companies do bad things.

I also find that moral equivocacy further simplifies my life. The world is so much easier to comment on when there are no degrees to consider. I like to paint everything with a giant, monochrome brush.

> That you are stupid enough to buy their stuff, that is your fault.

Finally, an assessment I can't argue with. The only thing I'm curious about, though, is this: I shouldn't be stupid enough to buy their products, but since all corporations are equally bad, what *should* I buy? You've obviously never been stupid enough to buy one of those "imperialist" consoles. But then, I guess it would be hard to play one without an imperialist television.

> They also do good things.

Quick, name one. I know: They ushered in the age of the GUI ... oh wait, they actually stole that idea. But they've written at least a few pretty decent products over the years, like SQL Server ... oh wait, they bought that.

I guess you're just referring to their superlative business ethics in general. Personally, I've always found the ISV and VAR criticisms of M$ as "inflexible" to be totally off-base. Their moral flexibility, alone, is without peer.

> Maybe it's not 'cool' to say good things about them

It's not. Still, the question is largely an academic one. We would need a good thing to report in order to put the matter to practical test, and there's very little risk of that happening.

- nocturne

Unconstitutional........

[PS-SCUD]

From the article: Telling us what we can or can't create, we think is unconstitutional.

But of course if MS tells YOU what you can or cannot create, that's perfectly OK.

Re:Unconstitutional........

[antiMStroll]

Fleshing that out a bit:

But of course if MS buys the legislation and maintains the monopoly that empowers them to tell YOU what you can or cannot create, that's perfectly Constitutional.

Re:XBOX IP

[Sygnus]

Running Linux on XBOX violates Microsoft's IP rights and they should prosecute everyone who attempts it.

Removing Windows XP from a newly-bought PC and installing your OS of choice as an alternative can be argued to do the same. Should Microsoft prosecute everyone who uses GNU/Linux or *BSD on their property?

Once a person purchases hardware [such as the X-Box], that hardware becomes his property, and he can do with it as he pleases - calling modding it "piracy" is no more than an egregious violation of consumer rights.

Piracy?

[Arker]

This isn't piracy, in any sense. Of course it doesn't involve boarding ships at sea and stealing cargo/kidnapping passengers, which is actual piracy. But it's not copyright infringement, which sometimes gets called piracy, either.

There's no "intellectual property" issue here at all, however much MS wishes they could find one. This is hardware. You buy it, it's yours. Period.

Of course we can all understand that they'd prefer to have people only buying their loss-leaders in order to run the games that they make heaps on. And most people do. But those who don't are perfectly within their rights. If MS really doesn't like it, they can start pricing the boxes more reasonably. It's their choice. But of course they want to have their cake and eat it too, and the sad thing is they have enough money to buy politicians with that they may yet get it.

Re:Piracy?

[Mac Degger]

Oh, so true...wish I had modpoints.

Thing is, how is it IP infringement if I buy a real game (albeit from japan) and play it on my own machine!?

The machine is mine (not a knock off, the real deal), the game is mine (not warez'd, just imported from japan)...why can I be prosecuted?

Re:Piracy?

[Anonymous DWord]

The machine is mine (not a knock off, the real deal), the game is mine (not warez'd, just imported from japan)...why can I be prosecuted?

Because they have more money than you do.

Re:Piracy?

[EnglishTim]

The reason some mod chips are illegal is that they effectively replace the Xbox BIOS with one of their own. The thing is, the BIOS is some of these chips is actually a hacked version of the Microsoft Xbox BIOS, or at least contains some original XBox BIOS code. That's why Microsoft was able to sue the owner of isonews for selling mod chips, - he was selling Microsoft coprighted code in the modchips, not because mod chips are inherently illegal.

Microsoft would probably have some power against some mod chips under the DMCA, as many of them allow you to copy XBox games to the hardrive and copy them over the network to a PC, where they can then be shared with other people. They also allow people to ftp game images to the Xbox hard drive and play them from there. Since these actions circumvent the XBox disc copy protection, mod chips which allow this are probably on shaky ground.

Ive noticed that some modchips don't come with any BIOS preinstalled at all now, so that you have to download the BIOS from the internet before you can use it, presumably to get around just this kind of legal restriction.

Re:Piracy?

[Arker]

As long as you're using a BIOS like Cromwell the issue of their IP in XBox bios is nill.

The notion that this otherwise perfectly legal act is illegal under the DMCA because it makes it possible to then go and 'circumvent' some games looks to me to be on very shaky grounds in context of the US legal tradition - not that I'm a lawyer or that I'd have the money to fight such a fight against a corporation with virtually endless resources, of course. But I wouldn't take that threat too seriously, because I think MS knows how shaky a test-case that would make, and they have a LOT to lose if a test-case goes against them. I expect them to make noise, but when it comes to taking action - they'll be looking for someone actually 'circumventing' games on a massive scale, I think, not someone using their precious little box as a dedicated linux box.

The DMCA is unspeakably evil, god just thinking about this is making me sick.

Re:A perspective from a competitor...

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone who is reading this thread keep in mind that Samir Gupta is a troll (check his history). He's made up just about every story in the book when it comes to where he's worked and what he knows.

Speaking of which, Mr. Gupta (doubt that's even your real name), care to let me know how a big, blue box that can't play DVD's represents "sentiments of small size?"

Re:XBOX IP

[Arker]

Running Linux on XBOX violates Microsoft's IP rights and they should prosecute everyone who attempts it.

How?

Re:A perspective from a competitor...

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to say this, but the only reason people usually buy ninteno is because of mario and zelda. You know, the characters that have been around since the NES. Unfortunately, all that you can find on the Game Cube are mario and zelda. Characters that have been around since the NES.

Re:XBOX IP

[NanoGator]

"How?"

Blame the DMCA.

Oh yes... Halo

[Trogre]

Q. Do you ever get impatient with Bungie, the developers of Halo 2, the sequel to your flagship title Halo?
A. Software development is part science and part art. I have a lot of faith in those guys to execute and produce on time, just like they did for Halo for the Xbox launch.

Because Bungie can always be relied on for release dates. I'm still waiting for my Q1 2001 Halo PC release.

How quickly we forget.

Re:Oh yes... Halo

[superultra]

Actually, it's not really Bungie anymore. If memory serves, it's Gearbox. Bungie probably has absolutely nothing to do with it. There was an interview just before E3 with gearbox and, of course, the big question was, "Why so long?" Generally they said, without saying it, that the code was an absolute mess and that it was the most challenging thing they'd ever done as a company. No big surprise I guess, since it was PC/Mac, converted to Xbox, and done so on a very tight schedule. So...sorry to burst your "Bungie secretly delaying this to run my fun" theory, but Halo PC has just been delayed for regular old, "It's hard to do" reasons.

Re:Oh yes... Halo

[Trogre]

Erm, the point is that the game Halo was very nearly ready for PC release just before Bungie was bought out by Microsoft.

The reason it was so difficult to port to XBox within the tight schedule was because they had to seriously dumb the game down to fit into a limited 64MB/PIII-700 configuration. This means at the simplest level at least seriously reducing the resolution of most textures, among other things.

Check out some screenshots of the initial PC release, and then go play it on the XBox, you'll see what I mean.

Now they are doing a PC port from the XBox port so that it doesn't make the crappy XBox version look bad. Releasing the original version would not be "hard to do", but prohibited by Microsoft marketing.

Re:Oh yes... Halo

[superultra]

Sheesh. I know this is slashdot, but really. Enough with the anti-MS attitude.

If you have it hanging around, go read - I think it's last month's - Computer Gamer. The head of gearbox talks about how difficult it is to actually *dumb* down the Xbox version for the PC, since the GPU in the Xbox is highly specialized. Gearbox's difficulty in bringing it to PC was that it was so quickly and highly specialized to the Xbox nvidia GPU that they're having a difficult time being able to do the same graphic effects without the Xbox graphics chip.

Moreover, for greater proof that Halo was actually most certainly not close to being completed when Bungie was bought out, look no further out the repetitive game design only midway through the game. I think "very nearly ready" is somewhat of an exaggeration. Halo has three or four extremely well designed plainly completed levels (Silent Cartographer and the jungle/appearnce of the flood come immediately to mind), and then the rest are either rehash (like the last three levels) or along the lines of the cut and paste Library-esque level.

So, in summary
a. I think you're being overly paranoid. I don't think there's an "original version" of Halo for MS is hiding within Bill's secrets valuts for the PC that's "nearly completed" If you can provide some links that prove otherwise, cough up.

and...

b. Saying the Xbox is a dumbed down PC is so 2001. Yes, it's a Celeron. Yes, there's only 64mb. But the GPU's specialized pixel shaders, running the CPU at RISC0, and the basic technical merit of having a set system standard provides advantages that a general PC just can't match.

And, quite frankly, I did look at some screenshots, and the xbox version looks as good, and in most cases better, than the PC screenshots. Sorry -shrug-. That obviously doesn't prove that the PC version wouldn't have looked as good, but it does disprove your indirect assertion that the PC screenshots look better than the Xbox version.
Reference:
http://www.psx2central.com/p ics/previews/halo1.jpg

http://www.psx2central.com/pics/previews/halo2.j pg

http://www.psx2central.com/pics/previews/halo3.j pg

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/halo/screenind ex .html?page=3

And this is why I will always follow Nintendo.

[Viewsonic]

The games. The games. THE GAMES! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

And it really could go beyond Linux!

[Corvaith]

I mean, what if I want to buy an Xbox to turn it into a paperweight?

Or an aquarium?

Or hell, maybe I'll hollow the thing out and wear it as a hat.

I bought it, paid through the nose for it, and if I want to ignore all their games and use the case as a home for fish, well, that's my business.

Now, I can understand them blocking modded Xboxes from the online stuff, because people *could* use modifications of some sort to cheat in online games. But that's not an IP problem; when they offer a service like that, they can deny it whenever the want. If they start going after people legally for modchips, though, that's a different story.

Calm Down

[thecoder42]

I can see that you are angry, but swearing only hurts your argument. I don't take you as seriously because it seems that you are just venting.

Just because you don't like Nintendo products doesn't mean that you should yell and curse at the people that do happen to like their products. I for one like their products because they have brands that I enjoy that can't be found anywhere else. You like Microsoft because they have brands that you enjoy. Leave it at that.

You don't need to threaten people because your views are different than theirs.

Re:Calm Down

[drwav]

I can see that you are angry, but swearing only hurts your argument. I don't take you as seriously because it seems that you are just venting.

I have no defense against that, but it got your attention so I guess it worked as intended.

Just because you don't like Nintendo products doesn't mean that you should yell and curse at the people that do happen to like their products.

1. OK, I guess it might have been pretty easy to get the implication that I hate Nintendo products. However, that is not the case, I hate the people who are Nintendo fanboys.

2. I wasn't yelling: THIS IS YELLING!

You like Microsoft because they have brands that you enjoy.

I am quite indiferent towards the X-Box, but I still hate people that spread X-Box hating crap that probably isn't even true.

You don't need to threaten people because your views are different than theirs.

I didn't threaten anyone, just expressing some anger. Now if I had said "I will maim all Nintendo fanboys" that would be a threat. Maybe I subtly threateaned them with just my general anger, if that is the case, I apologize and you can rest assured that I will not harm you.

Re:Microsoft Wants Patent For Denying Online Servi

[wfrp01]

You've got to be shitting me. But you're not. They are essentially attempting to patent host-based authentication 'for a gaming console'. Oh, for a 'gaming console' - that's unique. And this should be considered innovative? Goddamn I hate this company.

Jealousy, of COURSE... that MUST be it!

[drwav]

Why is it that whenever anyone goes on a rant bashing something the other party retorts by saying that they are just jealous? It is FUCKING CLICHE, and in this case not true since I really don't even care about game consoles. However, I do care about people who act like they are fucking superior because they own a Gamecube instead of an X-Box like it's some kind of fucking measurement of intelligence or class or some shit like that.

Disclaimer: I do not own a GameCube or an X-Box. But once upon a time I used to own a Super Nintendo and I thought it was a great *fun* system. I also thought Eternal Darkness was really fun for the GC.

Stupid question

[JohnFluxx]

> Q. How important is the Japanese market to you?

This question bugged me. Imagine you were answering, and had no idea what was happening, what would you say?

A. Not very. We find the japanese insignificant.
A. Very - the very existance of the xbox'es fate, lies in their hands!
A. We want to be successful in Japan because it's a gaming market and an important territory where we have a lot of third party game publishers.

bah

Re:XBOX IP

[bobertlo]

im not saying i agree but just pointing out that generally the argument is that you got a modded version of the bios to put on the mod chip not that you take the origional software off the Xbox.

(please dont take away karma for pointing out the truth)

Re:XBOX IP

[Kadin2048]

I don't really see how they would have any grounds for prosecution here. I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think they can in any way dictate how you use the hardware that you buy from them. The hardware is just plastic--you bought it, it's yours. Play games on it, use it as a space heater, toilet seat, piece of modern art, whatever. Same with the media and boxes that the games come on.

Where they could begin to get at you is if you ran Linux on an XBox, and then connected up to their online gaming system. If the system was designed to reject anything that wasn't running the MS XBox OS, and you spoofed it into thinking that your XBox-Linux was in fact the original OS, then you could be in trouble (because the TOS for the online service would undoubtedly prohibit you from connecting with a less-than-virgin box).

But if all you were doing was just running Linux on your XBox, just for the pure hell of it and because you can, without connecting up to their servers, I think you're probably safe. At least, I don't see how this would possibly infringe on their IP. Seems to me like they're just trying to discourage people...toss around the threat of an IP lawsuit and watch any large-scale effort to distribute an alternate XBox OS disappear.

cheating and linux

[nuintari]

Q. Folks have even built a Linux-Xbox computer. How can you control this?
A. Electronic hobbyists will do what they want to do...the numbers are not really that big. It's not a commercial as much as it is an intellectual property issue and we always pursue those. If someone finds a way to cheat, we close it down and do an update so people can't anymore.

First off, he is being vague, intentionally no doubt, so no one really knows what he means by "we always pursue those".

Secondly, how is this question dealing with cheaters? I modded my xbox to run Linux on it, not cheap, I have no interest in the xbox live service, its just one more way to connect me to people, and I hate people. Are you comming to get me because I like to tinker?

I don't even play pirate games on my modded xbox, not for lack of options I might add, I could have every game I wanted. But there is still only one game worth playing on my Halo Machi..... I mean xbox.

Uhhh...

[still_sick]

Maybe you've forgotten that the Xbox can be made to run (almost) standard linux distros. For me, that set it apart from the other consoles more than being from microsoft.

PS2 runs linux right out of the box - Sony itself sells the kits. No futzing with mod-chips.

Re:Uhhh...

[jmorris42]

Ya, whatever.

The XBox is a mutant PC. This means it can actually run programs.

The PS2 is a game console. Sony doesn't actually give you access to much of the hardware (like the DVD drive) and the box is very underpowered as a computer. Those slow little MIPS chips can't do MPEG2 decoding without hardware assist, which Sony won't reveal the secrets of and you can forget reasonable resolution MPEG4/DIVX decoding. And 32MB of memory is very lite. As a media box, Xbox is the only game in town.

Of course getting GL on either box running isn't very likely in the near future.

Re:XBOX IP

[thynk]

Running Linux on XBOX violates Microsoft's IP rights and they should prosecute everyone who attempts it.

I think the idea here is that once you own something, it's yours. You can use it for it's intended purpose (playing games), use it as a book end, if you can find a way to have sex with it, by all means - do so. Take it apart, mod the hell out of it, no problem.

However, there is a grey area here. The mod chips might be an IP voilation. This is what old MS wants to crack down on, not the person who wants to put linux on their machine.

As long as we're feeding the AC trolls, might as well throw in that I really kinda like my X-Box, but I do wish it had more games for kids. Last summer, we were in best buy looking for some stuff and I let the play with the game cube. Took each of them (ages 5-9) about 10 seconds to start playing the game. I've never seen something like that on Xbox. Course... I remember when it was cool to have 2 "Fire" buttons on a joystick.

Re:-1 Troll, +1 Fuck You

[Anonymous Coward]

Go to gamers.com and check the user reviews for any Gamecube game. You'll find an equal number of idiotic Xbox zealots. Shall I make idiotic generalizations like you just did?

To continue the car metaphor

[Chuck Chunder]

You can modify you car if you like but if you want to enter that car in a competition it will have to meet the technical requirements of that competition.

Just as most competitions severely limit what modification can be done to cars in order to keep the racing "fair" it is perfectly reasonable for MS to limit modifications made to the XBox if you want to use it with their XBox live service.

Re:To continue the car metaphor

[JJahn]

Certainly they are well within their rights to limit you from Xbox live if you mod your Xbox, but doing that is defintely not the same as claiming IP damage and prosecuting modders.

You lost your job?

[shepd]

I thought you worked as Head of New Technology Research for Nintendo.

Did you all of a sudden get fired or something? I mean your .sig did change from:

Dr. SAMIR GUPTA, Ph. D
Head, Nintendo New Technology Research Department
Kyoto, Japan

To just "Samir Gupta, PhD".

Enquiring minds want to know!

Thanks!

--
Bill Gates

Re:Xbox Live players are Thankfull

[jeffkjo1]

Lets change a few words in there:
...
Let me let you this: Black people will disagree, but White people recognize the value of what we have. We're part of something we love and we want to keep it that way.
...
If they're buying the games, the system, paying for the service, and they aren't cheating, why do you care how they get online?

Re:A perspective from a competitor...

[AvantLegion]

Whereas, with Nintendo, we have designed the GameCube from the ground up to reflect Japanese aesthetic sentiments of small size, symmetry, and fitting into the big picture without standing out, a fundamental tenet of Zen Buddhist philosophy -- not to mention the practical advantages when considering the size of the typical Japanese home.

And when these same people add the network adapter and a hard drive to their PS2, and it becomes very close to the size of the Xbox... they're going to throw it away?

Re: Xbox as a router

[znark]

can anyone point me to a good how-to on converting an Xbox into a decent *nix router

Just get an Xbox Linux distribution of your choice from the Xbox Linux website and use the standard Linux tools.

Unless you want to route using a single network adapter only (the built-in 10/100 Mbps Ethernet port) you will need to get one or more additional USB ethernet adapters.

Note that the Xbox USB connectors adhere to the USB v1.1 standard - in other words, their throughput is limited to 12 Mbps. The built-in Ethernet port can naturally go faster.

Go with PS2

[borgheron]

At least Sony supports Linux and supports, for the most part, the right of its customers to tinker.

What else should we expect from MS except for Fear & Control and all of those things we hate, but when has it been any different?

Thanks, GJC

Re:Go with PS2

[Osty]

At least Sony supports Linux and supports, for the most part, the right of its customers to tinker.

Sony supports Linux because they can make money off of it. When you have to pay another $200-$300 on top of the $200 (well, $180 now) price of a PS2, almost all of it pure profit, it just makes sense. However, Sony certainly doesn't support modchips. IIRC, it wasn't just Microsoft that went after Lik Sang for selling mod chips -- Nintendo and Sony also had a hand in that. What company would willingly support any market that at its core is all about stealing games? (blah blah just want to play imports blah blah bullshit.)

What else should we expect from MS except for Fear & Control and all of those things we hate, but when has it been any different?

When it comes to online gaming (which is the only area where Microsoft can really control what you do with your XBox), I'll happily take Microsoft's approach over Sony's. Add a mod chip, and you're banned from Live. No questions, you're gone. On the flip side, one of the major PS2 online titles, SOCOM, suffers horribly from cheaters. Yes, you can cheat in XBox Live games too, but you're limited to only in-game bugs. Those can be patched (see Unreal Championship's recent patch to fix a number of exploits with weapons and maps).

"laying the groundwork for total market dominance"

[Monster Zero]

BBC News Article is quite illuminating, talks about how they made the Xbox too expensive to begin with, and how outside of Halo they dont really have any "must-have" titles. Also mentions some about Microsoft's purchase of Rare, and how that will play into their strategy:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3051331.stm

The last sentence is the article is a whopper:

"The software giant is slowly laying the groundwork for total market dominance in the coming years.

Re:"laying the groundwork for total market dominan

[Jack Comics]

Concerning Halo being XBox's only "must-have" title, that's not true. Toe Jam & Earl III: Mission to Earth is also a XBox "must-have" title.

Expanding the console market...

[Blondie-Wan]

Pulling back from M$ and the X-Box for a moment to look at the broader gaming world...

From the article (emphasis in bold added):

Q. Who else do you want to sell the Xbox to?
A. What we haven't done as successfully is reach out into the broader market place. We just announced the Xbox Music Mixer with interesting non-gaming features, something that a variety of different audiences, like women, might want to engage in. Or getting text messages on your cell phone on your virtual league?s standings.

Q. What fires Bill up about the Xbox?
A. He looks at the whole concept and says how do we bring console gaming into the mass market. How do you enable the 90 per cent of women who don't play games, want to play? How do you make it easy enough in our generation can pick up a game console and have a great entertaining experience?
Q. Do you play?
A. Mostly with my 12 year old son.

I find it interesting that even someone in the industry, who obviously has an interest in drawing women to the hobby, himself admits he mostly plays with his 12-year-old son. I wonder if he's tried "selling" the women in his own personal life on it? Does his wife play? His mom? His sisters, or women friends?? (Granted, as he's in the industry, it's likely a lot of his friends, including women, are also in the industry, but aside from that...)

I frequently see articles on modern gaming demographics that say more women are playing video games than is generally thought, though the numbers seem to vary. Is this really the case? If so, why are so many of the games obviously targetted toward 12-year-old boys (or older males, who arguably have largely the same interests)?

Re:Expanding the console market...

[Dark Paladin]

Just as a thought, he may be talking specifically about the Xbox itself.

If you look at the Xbox, it's main hits have been:

a) Halo
b) Sports games
c) Racing games

Contrast this with the Playstation 2, which also has plenty of sports games (even though they don't look as good as on the Xbox), but also has a wealth of other games, especially in the RPG arena.

Most of the geek girls I know love RPG's. A good many of them also like good action games (Devil May Cry, etc), of which on the Xbox a "good" action game (except for Halo, Splinter Cell, and a haldful of others) is scarce.

If the Xbox wants to draw in more women, it has to do more than "sports and guns". It needs games that are also a story, other puzzle kinds of games that are fun and interesting.

Oh, and please don't think I'm saying that "women only like RPG's, Dance Dance Revolution, and the like". But their advertising for the Xbox (Dead or Alive Volleyball, anyone?) has certainly been male oriented. ("Wow! Look at the crap you can blow up in this game!")

Re:Expanding the console market...

[korielgraculus]

He may just not have a daughter! (or even be married)

Re:Expanding the console market...

[Observador]

Don't confuse play with pay... my wife will play just about any videogame (Zelda, SoulCalibur, GTA, Command & Conquer) if it is indeed FUN...

But, to date she has never bought a game for herself; sure she has bought lots for me that she does play... but never one for herself...

That said I know teenaged girls who do buy games but not on the amount I see teenage boys do... one other thing, I never see women checking the videogame aisles at Blockbuster or Video Ave...

The point is if they don't buy/pay/spend then they don't matter as much to the industry...

Re:Stop this nonsense!

[razmaspaz]

Even if the moderators didn't get it I thought it was funny!

Re:Microsoft Wants Patent For Denying Online Servi

[Salubri]

After doing a bit of reading, I'd have to say that I think you're right, but only to a point... observe

"[0008] The public key architecture involves writing a private key and a digital certificate into each game console during manufacturing. The certificate contains the public key corresponding to the private key. The certificate is part of a certificate chain that includes a certification authority certificate associated with a certification authority at each manufacturing site and a root certificate from which the certification authority certificate is derived. Whenever a game console goes online for registration, a certificate chain verification process along with proof of knowledge of the private key stored on the game console are used to authenticate the console as genuine."

Many games do this for piracy prevention already, granted. But from everything I'm reading in the patent sofar, it sounds as if Microsoft is patenting a system similar to a CD key schema that would allow for microsoft's online service to check for mod chips or memory hacks. Now, to me, this seems like a good way for the console to be constructed with failsafes against cheating in online games, which is a direction the console gaming market is going.

This IS a useful thing. How many online gaming communities are plagued with cheating? There are numerous games my friends and I stopped playing online because of the aimbots and other cheats that were clogging the servers.

What it looks like Microsoft is proposing is patenting a schema to have the console checked for modifications so that they can prevent "cheaters" (as the Microsoft employee put it during the interview) from going online and ruining every honest player's gaming fun.

Knock it if you will. Call it stiffling innovation if you will. All it appears to me is that Microsoft found a way to build encryption and authentication into their consoles for the purposes of denying people who are potentially hacking their hardware or memory to cheat the system from doing so on thier X-box live or next-gen live system.

A short lecture on IP, Copyright etc

[bagofbeans]

If you buy something - anything without a signed contract (or DMCA) deeming otherwise - you can disassemble, modify, reverse engineer and so on.

What you normally can't do is make COMMERCIAL USE of any IP you have uncovered. Same goes for patents. Anyone can make personal use of a patent. So, publishing info (free, like on a web page) on how to modify a something is fine. Selling a mod chip is commercial use, and can be attacked.

The bring-to-reality example I like is cars. Think about what info and 3rd party commercial exploitation exists for modifying cars and their components. The car manufacturers don't file suits to prevent it.

Re:The thing I hate microsoft for most of all...

[Blondie-Wan]

Yeah, it's late (and that is indeed because M$ bought Bungie, largely so Halo would be the killer app for X-Box), but the PC and Mac versions are still being done. The PC one is being ported by Gearbox, and the Mac version by Westlake.

Of course, now that it'll be an M$ product, I won't be able to buy it in good conscience anyway...

Re:Unless..

[Lord Bitman]

Of course if you're an american, where god damnit you SHOULD be in debt.

Yea.

[Inoshiro]

Especially if they load that 8db HD with warez.

Seriously, people who do break the law deserve no sympathy. If you've ever worked in a video game store, you'll be familiar with people who come in and try to seem cool by saying that they download all their games. They're just assholes living off the hard work of real people who give a crap about life.

Excuse me?

[Inoshiro]

How is he an asshole by saying, "If you are on our Xbox Live! service, we reserve the right to boot you if you have a modchip or other cheat device (such as Action Replay hacked saves) turned on for your Xbox Live! games."

I love that they ban cheaters and people who are just assholes. Why do you think I stopped playing PC games? People'd always accuse me of cheating if I was winning.

Whinning that he has rights but won't let you mod chip Xboxs that are on Live! is like Bill Gates whinning that he can't just come into your house and pee on your floor. It's your private property to use as you please, just like the entire Live! network is MS property to do with as they fucking well please.

Re:Excuse me?

[wfrp01]

I love that they ban cheaters and people who are just assholes.

But they don't stop there. The larger issue is that after you have paid them money for a box, they want to control how you use it. They can't abide the fact that people run Linux on an Xbox, for example. You say the network belongs to MS. How do you feel about the box itself? The one that you paid for.

Re:Excuse me?

[netdudeuk]

That's exactly what it's about. There are already examples of online games that have been hacked recently with players having their characters that have been developed over a long time wiped out by cheats. That's no kind of entertainment for these paying customers.

Look at the eagerly awaited Star Wars Galaxies. How many people would be rushing to sign up if they thought that other people were going to spoil all of the fun ? These systems have an obligation to make sure that they are secure and safe from cheats.

It could also stifle this market and prevent other new systems from being developed.

Sort of right, maybe

[Hamster Lover]

If you consider the fact that most (all?) of the Xbox mod chips incorporate a modified BIOS, then, yes, I think intellectual property rights are violated.

If someone reverse engineered the Xbox BIOS and then wrote their own compatible version, I would not consider that a violation of intellectual property since that very thing jumpstarted the PC clone phenomenon at the beginning of the 1980's and grew into the PC market we have today. Microsoft profited substantially from clone PCs and it would be a bit of the pot calling the kettle black if Microsoft bellowed about someone profiting if the situation was reversed. Yes, I know Microsoft themselves did not produce the clone PC BIOS, but they did produce MS-DOS for clone PCs and made, in part, the entire clone PC market viable.

Right, because people with modded boxes never

[Inoshiro]

-- dupe items in PSO or have hacked save states.

-- modify the downloaded content in Mech Assault so their mechs have mega more armour.

-- ever would they put warez all over that 8gb drive with an interactive menu to pick games.

No one would ever do that!

Re:"laying the groundwork for total market dominan

[figleaf]

Whacked! & Gotham car racing Are must have games too.

Did anyone else read...

[Serzen]

...page ii where it says "Note And changes or modifications made on the system not expressly approved by the manufacturer could (emphasis mine) void the user's authority to operate the equipment."? And then page 18, Limited Warranty, section G, paragraph one: "The software (again, emphasis mine) included in the Xbox Product is licensed to you, not sold."

Now, it is my opinion that MS is kindly letting you know that you can do whatever you want to the hardware, and as long as you don't try to use your modified hardware to interface with unmoddified hardware, they won't bother you. If you alter the software, though, and attempt to use the altered Box on Live or some other connected service, MS is kindly letting you know that they reserve the right to come to your house and take your Xbox away.

Not that I think it's right, but what I think doesn't count for much in Redmond.

Re:Did anyone else read...

[drinkypoo]

Now, it is my opinion that MS is kindly letting you know that you can do whatever you want to the hardware, and as long as you don't try to use your modified hardware to interface with unmoddified hardware, they won't bother you.

No, it's that they can't bother you. You really did buy the hardware, the law currently doesn't allow them to tell you not to modify the hardware. The law arguably allows them to tell you that you cannot modify the software, though the interpretations of that still vary.

Mechassault

[rpillala]

There's Mechassault for the PC? Or is it in development? I hadn't heard anything about this.

I wonder if he's just blowing smoke on the "synergy between PC and console gaming divisions" answer.

Ravi

IBM antitrust?

[raistphrk]

If my memory serves me correctly, wouldn't tying the software and hardware together create an antitrust issue? Game consoles have always been treated differently than computers, but Microsoft seems to make it fuzzy as to whether xbox is a computer or a console. If its a console, Microsoft would, at least in theory, be able to tie hardware and software together, wrapped neatly in some DMCA TPM. However, if xbox is a computer, then you should be able to load any damn OS that pleases you. Of course, xbox live is a different story. If you subscribe to the network, you have to follow the terms of service.

Re:IBM antitrust?

[Anonymous Coward]

"wouldn't tying the software and hardware together create an antitrust issue?"

No. Apple.

Rules the OS, rules the hardware.

As for the X-Box, it's a console. Just having a x86 compatible chip in it doesn't make it a computer. What constitutes a computer is a device that comes with no OS installed and it conditioned so that one can be installed (i.e. it has a BIOS). X-box has a factory-installed OS, so it's a device rather than a PC, just like my 68000-based washing machine isn't an Atari ST.

Region coding for licensed content

[yerricde]

Often, the publisher of a game does not own the copyright in all the works from which the game is derived. Examples include any movie franchise game, any music game, etc. The licensor for those may be different in different territories. Region coding lets Konami release Dance Dance Revolution in Japan while it wrangles with firms that control the U.S. monopolies on the included songs. In fact, some copyright owners refuse to license their recordings for the USA version, which is why the USA version of DDR lacks the song selection of the Japanese version.

What the hell?

[SifuDave54]

"Q. You now have PC, Internet and cell phone connectivity with the Xbox, plus Karaoke. How are you addressing security issues now that the Xbox is stepping out of the safe living room? A. We are designing everything we are doing to provide security as a service for both player and game publisher. For example, we can sense and disable an Xbox modified with third party "modchips" and not allow it to play online." I see that somewhat as bullshite. Yeah, bullshite. If you want, Microsoft, go ahead and take over people's livingrooms, and eventually permutate it into a full PC - but don't be assess and apply your DRM thinking to the hardware you sell. That's just asinine. "Don't forget, you don't own your hardware." Yeah, I haven't.

Re:What the hell?

[Winterblink]

They produced the hardware, with their DRM, running on their service. They can do with it whatever they like, and there's nobody holding a gun to your head to buy into it.

So the FCC won't let me be or let me be me

[yerricde]

"Note And changes or modifications made on the system not expressly approved by the manufacturer could (emphasis mine) void the user's authority to operate the equipment."

Such language is commonplace in documentation for electronic devices because they have to meet government radio frequency emissions standards. In practice, the FCC or CRTC will care only if some device causes an actual interference problem.

"The software included in the Xbox Product is licensed to you, not sold."

Was this Xbox BIOS EULA presented to me before the sale of the Xbox hardware? If not, then it may not be enforceable under contract law in most U.S. states, and it is a sale of a copy under 17 USC 117 and foreign counterparts.

Granted: As long as you don't try to connect a modded Xbox console to Xbox Live service, you'll be OK.

Re:A perspective from a competitor...

[yerricde]

care to let me know how a big, blue box that can't play DVD's

The Xbox comes in blue? I thought the Xbox couldn't play DVD Video titles without the DVD Video decoder software cartridge that plugs into the controller port.

represents "sentiments of small size?"

A GameCube with included Game Boy Player, which can play a few hundred GameCube games and thousands of Game Boy games (judging from goodgbx and goodgba database sizes), costs $150. An Apex DVD player costs $60. Total: $210. An Xbox console, which can play only a few hundred Xbox games, costs $180. The DVD decoder costs $30. Total: $210. Neither is more expensive, but the Xbox is likely to be heavier than the GCN and Apex put together, and you can't play games on a separate TV when a family member is playing Meg Ryan movies on the Xbox for 12 hours straight. You don't even need a questionably legal and hard-to-install modchip to run your own code on a GCN with Game Boy Player; all you need is the MBV2 cable.

Re:Microsoft Wants Patent For Denying Online Servi

[wfrp01]

Do you really think this passes the Patent Office's uniquiness criteria? PKI is not new. They appear to be applying PKI principles to authenticate the console. Why does applying PKI to a specific problem make this worthy of a patent? Why not patent "using PKI to authenticate a dog collar"?

As you say, I'm sure Microsoft (and others) would find such an application of PKI useful. But usefulness does not make an idea patent worthy. What are they doing that is truly innovative?

GCN titles don't suck

[yerricde]

Unfortunately, all that you can find on the Game Cube are mario and zelda.

No. Titles in the Mario and Zelda series are not the only Nintendo-exclusive titles that run on GCN. Look at Star Wars: Rogue Squadron 2 and 3, Star Fox Adventures, Animal Crossing, Metroid Prime (and II and Fusion for Game Boy Player), Pikmin 1 and 2 and Resident Evil 0 and 4. But even if you're tired of the Zelda series, what again makes you think Link's fighting games (Super Smash Bros. Melee and Link vs. Soul Calibur 2) are any worse than the fighting games on Xbox?

Characters that have been around since the NES.

There are Disney-licensed games for the Xbox starring characters that have been around since before the electronic computer was invented. In fact, those characters have been around since the dawn of the perpetual copyright era.

Replacement Linux BIOS for Xbox

[yerricde]

The Xbox-Linux download page has a "Cromwell BIOS" containing no proprietary code. Mod your Xbox console with Cromwell BIOS and boot Ed's Debian GNU/Linux port, and your Xbox is no longer running code copyrighted by Microsoft.

how illinformed...

[shione]

You don't own a ps2 do you?
All of the ps2's sold now, and all those sold in north america have a special compartment to accomodate a hard drive and network card (which attaches to the back of the said hard drive). Fitting those two things does not increase the size of the console. The only ps2 which doesnt have the compartment is the launch model sold in japan. For that one you have to get the external hard drive specially designed for it. Either way you look at it, a ps2 takes up less room than a xbox.

Re:Stop this nonsense!

[Call Me Black Cloud]

You've got a user number (or whatever they're called) of
Mods, delete his account so he comes back with a 6 digit id...

Re:A perspective from a competitor...

[NanoGator]

" hate to say this, but the only reason people usually buy ninteno is because of mario and zelda."

So what you're saying is that Sony is extremely vulnerable to being beaten by a newcomer?

I do own the box.

[Inoshiro]

There's nothing they can do about that. Remember when Homer broke the legs off Prof. Frink's autodialer after it tried to escape? Same deal.

The network is a commons, though. One they own, and which we pay to access. That's totally within their right to ban cheaters and chippers from. More power to them!

Re:I do own the box.

[wfrp01]

Alright, I'm the same page with you about that. It's not a network I want to use, but's that's a different story.

You know, whenever I've thought about Microsoft's Xbox strategy (which isn't a whole lot), I've always considered it a play into the low-cost commody computing business. Maybe that's wrong. It's not the box, and maybe not even really the games. Microsoft is building a network. One that they control. Something altogether opposite to the end-to-end Internet. The box is just another entry point.

IIS must br the basis for that patent

[Mongoose]

"Microsoft Wants Patent For Denying Online Services"

Man, I hope their is prior art. ;)

*off-topic* Re: Game genies

[RdsArts]

Actually, it's worse then that.

As a collector of NES carts, and a man who is FAR to familiar with the gold-plated covering on those things, I can tell you for a fact that they do scar up the carts they go on, along with a wee bit of damage to the actual system because the connector was a tad larger then most NES carts. (Some 3rd party carts had that problem too. Oh, the joy of it all)

Also, it could not play unauthorized games. All it'd do was pass a few constants into certain memory registers, and didn't have any lock-out chip of it's own. Defeating the chip with a soldering iron was easy enough though, all you'd do i-

*REMAINDER OF POST REMOVED AS A DMCA-VIOLATION*

New products interesting for women?

[woom]

From my experience, the xbox is a babemagnet. I know of several cases where the female part of the household insisted on the xbox, for the sole purpose of playing dead or alive 3...

If MS think some karaoke-wierdo stuff is what women want, they are making a huge mistake...

No problem here!!!

[Dareth]

(because the TOS for the online service would undoubtedly prohibit you from connecting with a less-than-virgin box).

In the wise words of Bill Clinton:

"I have never had sexual relations with an XBox!!!"

Re:Microsoft Wants Patent For Denying Online Servi

[Greger47]

The public key architecture involves writing a private key and a digital certificate into each game console during manufacturing.
...
Whenever a game console goes online for registration, a certificate chain verification process along with proof of knowledge of the private key stored on the game console are used to authenticate the console as genuine.

Uhh, duh! Since the private key is in there, your modded x-box can use it to sign whatever it wants... No protection here.

Long Term investment

[frankie_guasch]

For those who won't read the article, here is an
interesting question:

How long will Microsoft support a platform that seems destined to be in the red for the next few years? ... this is a 10, 15 and 20 year investment.

So MS is gonna inject cash in this project for many years. Expect a hard fight in the console market for ever.

Re:Long Term investment

[drinkypoo]

So MS is gonna inject cash in this project for many years. Expect a hard fight in the console market for ever.

Keep in mind also what this means to other markets. The Xbox 2 will likely provide PVR functions, encoding all video to WMV MPEG4 and allowing you to copy it off your PC but only play it on a DRM-enabled PC (prior to some sneaky "arr I be a pirate" transcoding.) It will be an even better DVD player I'm sure (though it's actually a fairly decent one right now) and I'm sure the next Xbox will do full-quality HD signals.

Too many consoles, little software innovation

[master_p]

...especially concerning handhelds: currently, they don't have the power to run 3d games good enough. The Gameboy Advance is full of reworkings of 16-bit SNES games. Microsoft will have to produce something really really innovative in order to get an economically justifiable market share.

Don't forget 3G handheld phones. Some of them can play games good enough, and that might be enough for the average on-the-move consumer.

Re:which is precisely why...

[Swiss_Cheeseman]

It was their decision to use this marketing strategy, they just have to cope with this.

Buying a non linux modchip is illegal

[Swiss_Cheeseman]

The linux modchips that you can currently get are 100% legal, due to the fact that they were developed without any microsoft software dev kits. Every other modchip, however, was developed with an Xbox SDK, making the software illegal. Also note that most of the software that you run along with those modchips is also developed with it, thus, illegal. Despite what you say about it being your right to import games and being able to play it on your xbox, you cant do that without a pirated chip. We can only hope that someone developed a homebrew bios that does run xbox software. This doesnt apply to ps2 or psx modchips though, they dont have any illegal code in them.

Re:Get your hands off of what's mine, YOU DIRTY AP

[eatdave13]

Thanks.

Re:The thing I hate microsoft for most of all...

[eatdave13]

Except for the fact that you have to control it with that ridiculous controller instead of a proper keyboard and mouse...

Re:Microsoft Wants Patent For Denying Online Servi

[multi io]

"[0008] The public key architecture involves writing a private key and a digital certificate into each game console during manufacturing. The certificate contains the public key corresponding to the private key. The certificate is part of a certificate chain that includes a certification authority certificate associated with a certification authority at each manufacturing site and a root certificate from which the certification authority certificate is derived. Whenever a game console goes online for registration, a certificate chain verification process along with proof of knowledge of the private key stored on the game console are used to authenticate the console as genuine."

Equivalent mechanisms can be found in GPG, S/MIME, or every other smart card-based authentification system.

Re:Stop this nonsense!

[Call Me Black Cloud]

Grrr...damn html filter. I wanted to say you have an account number of < 12000.... everything after the < disappeared...

politically free

[clenhart]

This is protective content in the US under the first amendment and it's a freedom of speech issue and we will defend both our and industry and game developers to develop the content they think is appropriate. Telling us what we can or can't create, we think is unconstitutional.

Many people do not understand the difference between free and politically free. For example, you are not free to kill someone. Developing violent content has nothing to do with political freedoms. Our forefathers were concerned with protecting policital freedoms, not profits.

Not so fast...

[thatguywhoiam]

Nintendo's sales have picked up dramatically in the last 6 months... I just don't like seeing raw hype and biased opinions posted as fact.

Neither do I. You know, we were just discussing this article just a little while ago. Nintendo may be shipping lots of units, but their second-half profits are down by a third. Which is not good at all. Remember many units does not necessarily equate to profits, they have to manage other costs as well.

I do with Nintendo luck though, generally they produce some great stuff. I think their self-proclaimed new direction in software excellence is a good step.

"Those people are not like us..."

[DesScorp]

"Microsoft is not only vicious but also immoral and unethical. MS employees are not bound by the same ethical and moral standards you and I are"

So let me get this straight. Because they work at Microsoft, the employees are inherintly evil? Greedy? Immoral? Inhuman? All of this because they work for Microsoft?

Where the hell do YOU work at?

Businesses are tough places out to make money. Microsoft employees are no different than anyone else. They've got families, go to church, pay taxes, vote, and send their kids to school just like everyone else. The notion that because they work at Microsoft, they're evil is, how shall I say it....fucking moronic.

Slashdot readers are taking the Microsoft thing too far when they start implying that "those people just aren't like US. They're different". Some of you people sound like something out of a bad Nazi movie.

Re:"Those people are not like us..."

[Malcontent]

"So let me get this straight. Because they work at Microsoft, the employees are inherintly evil? Greedy? Immoral? Inhuman? All of this because they work for Microsoft?"

Yes. This is a consequence of MS hiring practices. Did you see the thread about the book "moving mount fuji"? In that book it talks about how MS hires people who "think outside the box". What do you think that box is? You and me have innate ideas about good and evil, fair play, honersty, integrity, and the rest of our moral thinking. Ms employees think outside this box. They don't have the same concepts of fair play and morals as you and I do. People who apply to MS and are moral and "good" don't get hired because they don't (can't) break out of their morality box.

"Businesses are tough places out to make money. "

No argument there. Some business make money without without being sleazy though. I wonder how they mange it.

"Microsoft employees are no different than anyone else"

Yes they are different. That's what the whole MS screening process is all about. To seperate out the weak and the timid and the moral.

"The notion that because they work at Microsoft, they're evil is, how shall I say it....fucking moronic."

They are not evil because they work for MS, they work for MS because they are evil.

Re:The thing I hate microsoft for most of all...

[Ed_Moyse]

I think you've completely missed his point - he's not saying that Halo is bad, more that it would have been much better on a PC (As was originally intended before MS stepped in)

Re:Related: XBOX-2 info

[drinkypoo]

That page is filled with nothing but unsubstantiated rumors. Perhaps you should submit it as a story, and then it can end up on the front page.

A website that cites no sources is generally full of shit.

Nintendo MAKES MONEY off GC.. Cripes.

[Viewsonic]

It's been known since the GC came out that it can be made for around $90 a unit. That is why Nintendo still has PROFITS, while Microsoft has LOSSES. It is known that Microsoft is losing $150 per console sold. No one knows ANYTHING about the PS2.

Nintendo is already going with ATI for nextconsole

[Viewsonic]

Which will be out before the XBox, so what advantage will this have for the XBox2? If you ask me there wont be an XBox2, there is no reason to make it unless XBox1 can show profits, instead of doubling losses every quarter.

Yeah.

[Inoshiro]

Money for nothing is what services are about. Being a company that licences games is all well and good, unless no one is buying games for the system anymore. Adding the magic of Live! pixie dust makes even offline games more interesting (Burnout 2's scoreboards and Splinter Cell/TJ&E's new levels, etc). Once you play it and enjoy it, you really like it. Even if you turn off the service, you still get to play all those games in offline mode.

Microsoft DID expect to make a profit.

[Viewsonic]

If you read the numbers they expected to be shipped and the sale they expected, they were way off. XBox2 most likely wont ever happen as the entire XBox division is the single most damaging aspect to Microsoft shares. Everything else is making money while the XBox division is going belly up (Literally) .. 4 Billion in losses and counting, it's only going to get worse with another XBox. They have a huge war chest, but they wont have anything after all of this.

Re:Microsoft DID expect to make a profit.

[ceejayoz]

If you read the numbers they expected to be shipped and the sale they expected, they were way off.

False - all the interviews I've seen say that Gates was quoted a $3+ billion loss if Sony cut prices aggressively (which they have). They certainly didn't expect to make a profit right off the bat.

Everything else is making money while the XBox division is going belly up

False again. Xbox is currently the largest money loser, however there are other divisions also losing money - MSN and the mobile devices divisions, to name two.

the entire XBox division is the single most damaging aspect to Microsoft shares

Uh, nope... the most damaging thing for MS's shares is likely the poor economy and/or the poor state of the technology sector.

They have a huge war chest, but they wont have anything after all of this.

Given that MS makes 10 billion profit per year, it'd be rather hard to get rid of their cash by losing a billion per year on the Xbox.

Come on... if you're going to predict the demise of a company, at least do some fact checking first. Oh wait, this is Slashdot...

Re:Colour Scheme

[th3space]

It was probably selected by simoniker, the guy who is actually doing all of the work for the games section...he is the one watching the aforementioned pornographic material. but he probably isn't.

Linux X-box.

[cyberscan]

I'm sick and tired of all the monopolies hiding behind intellectual property laws. Patents and copyrights were originally intended for someone who has a great idea to have a chance sell their idea by making a product or work and putting it on the market. Of course, nowdays, in order to get a patent, one has to spend tens of thousands of dollars just to go through the paprework. I don't have tens of thousand of dollars to have my ideas protected. My only other choice is to go to a big company and present my idea to it. If I'm lucky, this company will use my idea and pay me a small royalty. However, in many cases, a company will say they have developed a similar idea, patent the idea themselve and rake in all the cash. Companies will use their clout to govern how people use their product. Microsoft or any other company has no right in legally stopping people from modifying X-boxes to suit their needs anymore than GM or Ford has a right to stop people from painting their cars a different color.

Misinterpretation and /. sensationalism

[ndogg]

The guy ought to be more clear about the messages he tries to get across. This is just too vague:

Electronic hobbyists will do what they want to do...the numbers are not really that big. It's not a commercial as much as it is an intellectual property issue and we always pursue those. If someone finds a way to cheat, we close it down and do an update so people can't anymore.

I don't think he's against modchips, but he doesn't want people to use modchips for purposes other than putting Linux on a box, i.e. using it to cheat on XBox Live! or pirate/copyright infringe games. He (and probably the rest of Microsoft) don't seem to care if people use a modchip to put Linux on the XBox, and there doesn't seem like there is much they would be able to do about it anyway.

Re:Stop this nonsense!

[jonbrewer]

Um... I posted to the wrong story. Mea Culpa. What's with the flames?

Re:Not jealousy, stupidity

[drwav]

You are a fucking idiot.

Re:Not jealousy, stupidity

[drwav]

Yeah, like you are any more fucking clever. You are boring and unorigional and I would like for you to stop talking. SO FUCK OFF YOU AC!

Re:-1 Troll, +1 Fuck You

[drwav]

Dude, you're an AC and a fucking stupid one at that. Use your account or shut up. Oh, and I DO read Penny Arcade AND Real-Life.

Oh well. So much for YOUR fucking idea you fucking idiot.

Re:Not jealousy, stupidity

[drwav]

Like yours are SOO much better. I don't feel like putting any actual thought into responding to a fuckhead like you. I just like to tell you to shut up you fucking prick.

Re:-1 Troll, +1 Fuck You

[drwav]

If you don't have an account then fucking make one or SHUT UP. Or is that too hard for you? You have NO EXCUSE to post AC and then whine that you don't have an account because it is FREE.

Re:Not jealousy, stupidity

[drwav]

Jesus, will you FUCKING SHUT UP ALREADY? You don't fucking know me, so SHUT UP YOU FUCKING IGNORANT PRICK!

Re:-1 Troll, +1 Fuck You

[drwav]

Yeah, you made your point. The point you made is that you CAN'T MAKE A POINT FOR SHIT. If you want to post to Slashdot, the only reason you should use an AC account is if you are talking about a company you work for and you don't want your higher-ups to know who you are. Otherwise, get an account or SHUT UP. Or better yet, annoy some other service. SO JUST FUCKING SHUT UP AND LEAVE!

You know nothing.

[drwav]

it seems I know you better than you know yourself

This is where you are wrong. It is impossible for anyone to know anyone better than they know themselves. This is due to a fundamental flaw in the way humans communicate. Verbal and written language is far too awkward to articulate everything that a person may be thinking at a given moment (this is necessary to fully understand anyone's perspective). It is also far too slow. People can think they understand, but this is ultimately self-deception.

You have a point with you figuring out that I don't subscribe to the "Christian faith" but your point is very minimal since that is only one of the nearly infinite factors that makes up my personality.

You don't know me, you never will, and I never expect you to.

People like you disgust me, thinking themselves all high and mighty just because they think they know something about someone that they do not. Such an assumption is quite arrogant. Of this I am also guilty, but I don't really care if I'm correct or not because in the end I'm just doing this because I'm bored and I like to observe people's reactions to uncommon stimuli. At least, uncommon in a civil society.

Re:You know nothing.

[drwav]

If how you see yourself is different from how everyone else sees you, who is wrong? If how you know yourself is different from how everyone else knows you, who is wrong?

The answer to this is obvious. No one can know you better than you know yourself since no one has access to your mind except you. It is true in many cases that people do not look at themselves clearly enough to completely understand themselves, but it is still only themselves that can get a clear picture if they strive for it. No one else can do that. People can claim to know someone better than they know themselves, but it is rarely true unless the subject in question is truly blind to their own condition. In my case, I am acutely aware of who I am, and I find it quite insulting and arrogant that you believe otherwise.

But you don't know me, so assuming that you are better than me is the easiest way to make you feel superior. It's only human nature.

As for everything else, I honestly don't care about your opinion anymore. I did what I did because I felt like it, I'm sick and tired of all the rules and guidelines one must follow to be respected in society. I just wanted to do whatever I felt like with complete disregard for whatever anyone else thought.

As for me being guilty of assuming I know something about others (e.g. me calling you an idiot or arrogant), I just put that in there to avoid the "Pot calling kettle black" statement that is so very annoying. I'm well aware of such a statement, but I don't care because I did not feel going into not being able to assume anything due to lack of complete data.

With this level of apathy I question as to why I am bothering to reply at all. I guess I'm just bored and need to put you into your place and have you cease your arrogance. For I despise nothing more than unjustified arrogance.

Of course then we come back to the argument that I don't know you so how can I know you are being arrogant. Well, I can't. This is the point where I stop caring completely. I've had enough, and I will not be posting any further replies since this argument is circular.

So lets just drop this whole thing and move on to bigger and better things.

Oops, you found me out!

[drwav]

No one took your post as anything other than a troll.

Not true, you will notice that 20% found it "Funny". There was even an "Insightful" mod for a while, I'm guessing that it was meta-moderated as unfair at some point. Oh well.

Or perhaps another reason for using an AC account is that I'm on company time and people in my company know my handle and I don't want them do know I'm spending company time to post?

Actually I didn't think of this possibility because I have something called a "work ethic". Typically I don't go posting to news services at the office unless I'm on my lunch break or such. I'm usually too busy with actual work to bother with such unproductive tasks. However, now I'm at home and I have some time to kill... so here I am. If this is simply not the case for you, perhaps you should re-think your choice of career.

Oh, and I'm not annoying a service. In fact, it appears I'm annoying only you.

Oops, you found me out! Although if there was anyone left reading this other than you and me, I'm sure we would both get modded down as being annoying. I just felt like releasing some anger though, thanks for your help on that one.

Anyway, have a nice evening.