Slashdot Mirror
Online Auction Industry In A State Of Limbo
theodp writes "It seems the online auction industry is in a state of limbo after last week's ruling that eBay violated patents belonging to MercExchange. MercExchange said it will file an injunction against eBay to keep them from using the technology, eBay said it will file motions to overturn the verdict, and MercExchange is ultimately looking to sell its entire portfolio of auction-related patents. Names being bandied about as possible acquirers include Amazon, Yahoo and eBay itself. Whoever holds the patents may require other sites to pay them licensing royalties."
MercExchange will use Ebay off its patents. BID AWAY. ;)
Sell those Ebay stocks...They are about to pay out millions on Billions due to another in wrong patent. It is just like one click shopping from amazon, logical idea but not really patentable IMHO.
...now available to the highest bidder.
people hate lawyers?
Do me a favor and double it!
to suffer from selfish individuals bent on thwarting innovation of technologies.
- Whoever holds the patents may require other sites to pay them licensing royalties.
Going out on a limb with that one, huh? Yeah, I can't think of many reasons for a company to buy the patent portfolio of a company whose patents on a key Internet technology were just upheld in court. Besides pulling a SCO, that is.Can we just refer to this kind of manuover as "pulling a SCO" from now on?
-- @rjamestaylor on Ello
So will they use EBay to sell their patents?
"She's a West Texas girl, just like me" - G.W Bush Iraqis
Physicsnerd
"Physics is like sex. Sure, it may have some practical results, but that's not why we do it." - Feynman
Use Buy It Now!
Hmmm.
I've never understood the relevance of such silly patent battles. If they've let ebay and all hte rest of these auction sites get away with patent infringement thus far, why are they finally deciding to "stand up and defend our IP"?
why does the porridge bird lay his eggs in the air?
How on earth could the idea of holding an auction on-line be considered non-obvious?
Next thing you know all those bloggers will have to pay royalties.
http://yetanotherpoliticalrant.blogspot.com
Ebay should just take the easy road and remove online auctions from their business model.
They could turn themselves into a a portal, or maybe maybe a search engine. Maybe they could sell groceries and have them delivered. I wonder if the CEO has heard of push technology? Push will be the wave of the future! Why surf around for content when it can be delivered via a cute little cartoon caharacter.
I doubt this whole 'auction' thing will ever catch on anyway. None is ever going to buy a piece of junk from an unknown person over this here new fangled internet.
~Z
How the heck do you patent doing something that's been done for generations just because it's on the internet. It'd be like patenting giving stock quotes over the phone. It really ticks me off to see all these companies with nothing real to offer humanity getting patents for using other peoples technology. If I were ebay, I'd try and kill this patent based on the shear obviousness of it.
Still, I can't help but wonder if the reason America is so patent crazy lately is to get a leg up on the rest of the world. I'm pretty sure large parts of Europe will be tricked/cajoled/forced into honoring this crap eventually, and I know Iraq will (whether they want to or not).
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
Yahoo, Ebay, Amazon.... Really reminds me of that Morpheus speech;
"This is a war, and we are soldiers...."
...we know you are in there somewhere SCO!
Could a patent be any more broader? Quoting the original /. posting of this article,"method..for creating a computerized market for used and collectible goods" Computerized market for used and collectable goods? Are you kidding me?!? Sounds like the makings for a monopoly to me...
How can you patent such a concept as "buy it now?" Frankly, I love it and use it all them time -- it lets me land an eBay item before someone else does, albeit for a bit more. But hey, we'll see what happens in court. I'm behind eBay all the way on this one.
P.S. I'm off to patent the use of cars on roadways, so y'all'll have to stop driving when I win! Muhahaha!
What truly is non-obvious? The fact that this can be patented is truly ridiculous. I can't see how this is a case of patents protecting the economic goals of this country. In this case the patent produces the exact opposite of its original goal, it removes competition in the sector. Yet another reason to search for alternatives to our current IP system.
Photos.
How can having a fixed price on something that also has a variable price be patentable? Even worse, how can it be held up in court?
Names being bandied about as possible acquirers include Amazon, Yahoo and eBay itself. Whoever holds the patents may require other sites to pay them licensing royalties.
You think they'll have the guts to hold an online auction for the royalties?
Take an existing event, which by itself in not patentable (ie an auction) and stick it on a have the participants interact through the internet, and all of a suddent, you have just "invented" the best thing since sliced bread (Patent Pending).
So:
1. Take existing "thing" everyone does
2. Stick it on the net, and patent it
3. Profit
Take that underpants gnomes!
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
You mean Amazon doesn't own this already?
I don't know much about Patent law, but I always heard that patents were easy to engineer around because they have to be so specific, and a relatively minor change can be used to engineer around the patent.
How does this extend to computer programming techniques? Why don't you have to provide a specific algorithm in the patent that can be engineered around?
How about patenting the concept of porting a way of auctioning things over the internet from IPV4 to IPV6?
MercExchange, which said it will file an injunction against eBay to keep them from using the fixed price technology MercExchange had patented in 1995.
Does this mean MercExchange patented By It Now?
If I'm reading this properly, then it just seems that Merc wants to:
1. Obtain all legal rights to online auctioning methods
2. Sell to large Fortune 500 company
3. Profit.
Which makes sense to me. It may be a slimy tactic, but that's business.
Vonal Declosion
Oh, and I also worry about stuff like this being enforced in the US. (I'm a US'ian) If we are more strict with our IP laws than other countries, then our companies' ability to compete on the international market could be hampered.
You aren't allowed to patent a business process (i.e. "the assembly line") and I don't understand why this should be any different when the internet, computers or software are concerned. Some software patents like compression algorithms and such are somewhat arguable but patents like "online auctioning" are just stupid...
...that's what you get for ignoring your jury duty summons.
Lame US patent law.
Why do the courts allow this to happen? It just creates an opportunity for a monopoly! Didn't they see that one coming, or what?
My plan for retirement:
1. Come up with a plan or method that sounds crazy, impractical, or stupid to everyone, and copyright it.
2. Wait 5 or 10 years for someone else to find a way to make millions off it.
3. Sue for copyright infringement.
4. etc...
-Look lively. LOOK LIVELY!!! --Mr. Shmallow
In a way this is good. All respect for patent-law will be anihilated if anything like this goes trough with tthe blessing of law.
This is just a first step towards worldwide anarchy and freedom! (At least I hope so :)
Not Buzzword 2.0 compliant. Please speak english.
This might be an important case, if ebay decides to try and challenge the legitimacy of the patents. If they win, it could set a good precident. If they lose, it'll be a disaster. I hope thats what ebay does, allowing MercExchange to make money off these absurd patents will only encourage others. Oops, it appears that I have a patent for electronicly displaying letters and numbers...
It cannot be more clear we need to organize a revolution against those stupid patents.
Mail your politicians and say its bad for bus.
No you're not - you suck. You're four off the pace.
If these patents continue to hold up, then either EBay will buy them for some stupendous price, or somebody else will buy them and charge EBay studpendous fees. Either way, EBay will continue to do business much as before -- the profits will just get divided slightly different. Big deal!
How can this be off-topic? Look at the first line of the post, for goodness' sake!
Now we know why Meta-moderation was introduced. I mean, really...
an, not a
Online auctions were being performed years before this patent or eBay. For example, a man I used to work with was holding live online auctions for trading cards using the chat boards on CompuServe and other online services. He went so far as to set up a toll-free voice mail (we worked for a communications company) that updated the results of the bidding in near real-time. It was kind of funny to watch him work at it - One hand typing feverishly on the keyboard and the other hnd dialing that voice-mail while he was rambling off the updates every couple of minutes. He invested $60K in this business using his credit cards and was out of business a year later - a Dot-Com failure before the Dot-com bubble. But I'm rambling, maybe I should call him up and ask if he would like to jump this "Prior Art"/"IP" bandwagon.
Your system if fully and utterly screwed...proof offered (again) above. Canada, Australia and New Zealand will begin accepting immigration applications shortly.
eBay was founded in September 1995. Patent was filed in November 1995. Was eBay doing something other than auctions?
when i say it removes the competition I mean that it removes the competition that drives innovation. In this case the market found itself comfortably without patents. When patents are introduced, the auction system will lose stability, the lines will be redrawn needlessly, creating economic turmoil within the industry (probably to someone's benefit).
Photos.
I've missed Old Ike!
This has nothing to do with auctions on the internet or the end of all auctions. It has to do with specific combination of FIXED PRICE SELLING and an INTEGRATED PAYMENT PROCESSOR.
So, IMHO, ebay just needs to remove the fixed price items and it's business as usuall.
"This is just a first step towards worldwide anarchy and freedom! (At least I hope so :) "
Are you aware that those two are responsable for a great deal of bloodshed? Why would anyone "hope" to send a son or daughter into that, however necessary it may be?
1. Take existing "thing" everyone does
2. Attach a steam engine, and patent it
3. Profit
Unfortunately, that's how the system has always worked.
"Can we just refer to this kind of manuover as "pulling a SCO" from now on?"
As long as you're willing to pay SCO everytime you say it.
Others have done it.. why not just move out of the US into a more friendly government where the internet is and there is no patent system..
business remains the same money flows in and this jerkoff gets nothing... i mean if this is gonna end up costing them hundreds of millions.. why not?
These laws need to be changed and delt with and I hope ebay wins in the surpreme court if they can make it there... maybe this could be the downfall of the rest of the dumbass patents? (not likely but wishful thinking... sad watching the US turn greater into opression)
To SCO (too skoe), v.t. (1) To attempt to collect royalties or fees for services or the use of properties to which the perpetrator has no rights, or to which the alleged rights are highly dubious. (2) To bully by means of expensive trial lawyers. Also, pulling a SCO (colloquial).
SCO-ed (skoad, skode), (1) past tense and past participle of To SCO (q.v.). (2) adj. Result of the action of a SCO-ing.
Now they have one more reason to fail, but it has nothing to do with market forces, freedom or the American Way. You telling me I can't do something obvious because you did it first is bogus. I might like to run a trading site for the fun of it, that's they way ebay started. If it makes lots of money, like ebay did, goodie for me. If not, no big deal. Me paying you money for nothing is not something I care to do. Screw off.
DMCA, Hollings, Palladium. What might have sounded like paranoia is now common sense.
should band together and but the parents. It would be worth it just to annoy the crap out of of Jeff Bezios by telling him we are aware how fond he is of patents and he is infringing on ours so stump up.
As a thought though if say I were to acquire the patents myself are they any sort of controls over what I charge or if I was feeling vindictive can I make a reasonable fee for one company but for another make it so expensive they either have to close up shop or find another way of doing business ?
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
Has stopped being a useable defense a long time ago, in this day and age it really is wrapped in with prior art ... anything for which no clearly documented prior art can be found is considered to be defacto non obvious.
Whoever holds the patents may require other sites to pay them licensing royalties
Or they could be sane and let the world continue as it has been, succesfully.
Pay close attention to this (block)quote:
That's right... According to the story, the only thing eBay can't do, is the "Buy it now" thing. Auctions go on as usual.
The second article says the same thing, approximately:
Last time I used eBay, there was no "integrated payment processor", and "fixed-price selling" was a new feature... In other words, they were doing well before those features, so I imagine they could do without them if things don't go their way.
I hate patents, but I hate sensationalist
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
This is why people hate the US Patent and Trademark Office.
...and sue the shit out of AOL, MSN, Yahoo, any and all operators of IRC servers, VoIP systems, and the like.
The sad things is; if tommorow I saw a headline that someone did just that, I wouldn't be suprised in the least.
CAn'T CompreHend SARcaSm?
Umm, hate to tell you, but genuinely selfish people are rational enough to know that being broke in a sane society is far safer, and far better for the self, than being filthy rich in a society of legalized theft.
Okay, I lied when I said I hated to tell you.
Would the owner of the patent on serving information accross the internet please stand up. I think these auction guys owe you some money.
I'm thinking more along the lines of businesses moving out as opposed to citizens. How about ebay moves its entire operations to Canada, or maybe Aus? We have decent webserver pricing, there's already ebay.ca, etc. Swap the domain name to a Canadian nameserver.
Such an incredibly stupid patent would have less chance of surviving Canadian court... not sure about Aus... but it seems that America is slowly poisoning its own economy. I mean, X years from now America will be so bogged down by bad patents and innovation-stifling technology/laws that it will be far behind the rest of the world in a technological sense.
Rather then use "buy it now" technology, perhaps e-bay would move tward "end it now" technology, where users who are trully interested in an item can select to buy it, rather then the seller selling it. This way it should resolve the trivial issues of the IP of "buy it now".
Now if that sounds fucking stupid, it's no more stupid then someone claiming they hold the IP to "buy it now".
Near as I'm aware... OBO [or best offer] technology has been in use for as long as I can remember, employed by a vast amount of private citizens when selling things via news paper classifieds.
For those "unfamilar" with OBO technology... basicly a person is selling goods or services and lists an ideal price under the terms that you can buy it for that price, otherwise the selling will accept the highest offer they recieve. What we forget is offers can be higher or lower then the asking price.
For example, I was selling a 486 overdrive some years back. I put it up for sale for like $50 OBO, and I got offers higher then what I posted it for. Basicly I explained to all involved that my best offer was like $75 but a higher offer would be accepted and sold. Needless to say this pissed people off, dispite the fact I was trying to conduct the transation in a fair and honest fasion, and taking the "best" offer.
I would have taken $50 for it, but someone was willing to pay me more money in order to assure that they got it, as well as some assurance that it worked.
Now... I am not the inventor of OBO technology, in fact i'm not sure who is, I would *THINK* it's in the public domain, the fact that it's in common use.
There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
Ebay should retaliate by patenting "Online Auctions using a computer and software"...
Then whoever buys the other patents will be forced to cross-license!
Isn't it wonderful to see such innovation and progress being so thoughtfully encouraged by our beloved government? (May they never be overthrown!)
Makes me feel all warm and tingly inside.
Maybe that was offtopic, since mathematicians have a strange notion of "obvious". Thing is, you can't just say something is "obvious" because it's something we take for granted now. Nowadays, anybody who's studied elementary math takes as "obvious" that there's no largest possible integer. Perhaps if Cantor's proof to the contrary had been a little harder to understand...
The fact is, it's easy to say "Oh, anybody could have thought of that" after somebody has actually thought of it. But you don't actually know that. To have an intelligent opinion on the originality of an invention, you have to stop and compare it with other inventions, ones that got accepted as truely original. And ones that haven't.
I don't have an opinion on the patentability of online auctions. To have an educated opinion on this issue, I'd have to compare it with other similar ideas that other people have tried to patent. Of course, this is a free country, and you're entitled to have an opinion about anything you choose, whether you know what you're talking about or not. But until you take the trouble to have an educated opinion, you're the one who should screw off.
Why does everyone say that everything is "the best thing since sliced bread" ? Store-bought, sliced bread is minging - I for one wonder how they manage to get away with calling it bread.
.....
It really is time for a radical re-think of the patent system. The original purpose was to enable someone with a new idea but not much money to get a bit of short-term protection against people with plenty of money but no ideas of their own. Not what we are seeing today
Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
I was going to ask if the legal use of the word "obvious" is different than the common-sense one, but google quickly answered my question.
I won't try to summarize the document, as I'm sure I'd butcher the meaning, but short answer: Yes, patent law use of the word "obvious" is somewhat contrary to common sense. In retrospect, I guess this should have been obvious to me. *rimshot*
It is frightening to think that something that any group of 5th graders might come up with in a brainstorming session could qualify as non-obvious, but it sounds like this could be the case.
Then again... EBay prices are inflated because of all those compulsive bidders. Which EBay encourages with "auction notifications" and other stuff that's really redundant in the proxy auctions they conduct. In other words, it's very much like gambling -- people throw away absurd amounts of money for a puny reward that's randomly delievered. So maybe we can cite Las Vegas as "prior art"!
..Patent "(i)Making inane comments having not RTFA" and "(ii)Repeating the same old jokes" and "(iii)Crazed Linux advocacy/kneejerk MS-bashing" or we've all had it!
(Won't mind if you don't bother with the one for "posting duplicate articles" though).Plays violent online games as: Nerfherder76
The patent document uses the word said so many times to make even the mother of all trolls blush. It's so muddled that I suspect the lamest of all lameness filters on /. could catch it.
When will we start rejecting technical documents that would keep even the best lawyers up into the wee hours?
Why not hire communication capable technical writers as patent examiners instead of the morons that fill those spots?
The message on the other side of this sig is false.
I'll do you one better and actually patent it. You already have copyright ownership of almost anything you create, some restrictions aply.
Why not just move the company/servers to somewhere outside the U.S. where there aren`t silly software patent laws ?
Canada is American , american is for those living on the american continent not just in the US ...
Tell the guy putting a gun to your head and FORCING you to come here an write insanity to ...
...
make you look bad that he is relieved of duty
go see a Beautiful Mind you might have the hero problem
It's otherwise known as "Mass Bandwagon Stupidity". Even in the geek crowd it's filled disproportionally with idiots who just jump at a headline and assume everything.
/. with these unproductive posts.
These people would be better off as luddites idolizing Britney Spears with their waking hours instead of posting on the internet, polluting
This has been going on since the eighties. Maybe not on the Internet, but definitely within private networks of cooperating organisations.
See my journal, I write things there
I imagine it would be quite lucrative to license this business method to companies such as MercExchange.
Yes, you'd be 100% correct, if we lived in a world where everyone played the bidding game by a purely logical strategy, and knew everyone else would as well.
But people don't. Last minute bids take on an importance that they shouldn't have, because not everyone on ebay bids their maximum amount right away.
If I place a 50 dollar bid on an item that someone else has previously placed a bid on, for 34 dollars, the new price will be 35 dollars, with me as the winner. In theory, if 34 dollars was in fact the theoretical maximum that the other guy had been willing to pay, it would end there.
But this guy thinks to himself, and decides that hey... he really wants this gold plated ant farm, and it's worth 48 dollars to him. So he bids 48 dollars. And suddenly, I'm still winning the bid, but it's at 49 dollars.
"Hmm..." he thinks to himself, "I know what I'll do. I'll bid on this item at the last second, and I'll bid... oh... 75 dollars. Now, I know that this item isn't worth 75 dollars, but there's no way this other guy already bid higher than that. So I'll be winning, at whatever the old bid was, plus a buck! Perfect!"
So he does this, and he wins the auction at 51 dollars. Of course, he wound up spending 17 dollars more than he planned to, but the thing is, he won the auction. I lost it. And if I would have been willing to bid higher, on second thought, I won't get the chance to.
If, on the other hand, I had waited until the last second, and he had thought he was safe and secure at 34 dollars, I could have come in and stolen the bid at 35.
The thing to realize is that last minute bids matter, not because it pays to bid later in the bidding, but because it pays to bid last. If we all had infinitely fast reaction time and internet connections, that would not be the case, and we'd all (theoretically) be back to the position by which the person who's willing to bid the most will always win.
And thats that.
Genuinely rational people know that legalized theft is better for the self than defacto slavery to "owners" who don't contribute to production.
Your troll sux0rs. YHL. HAND.
Quit your whining about software patents. Just because you're not smart enough to come up with anything novel yourself, don't denigrate the people who come up with the ideas. I've got 11 patent apps currently in for software stuff that I *worked* to think of and while you're busy trying to figure out the flavor of the latest booger you managed to pick I'll be able to look at those lovely patents on my wall and know I earned them. Quit crying on Slashdot and do something useful. Advance the art yourself instead of complaining about the people who earned the right to charge license fees by being more clever than you.
There is no prior art for holding auctions in Antartica what so ever, so clearly this must be a better mouse trap!
"Auctions on the Internet" is NOT an invention. It doesn't matter whether it is obvious, or whether anybody had already thought of it, because it is simply taking an existing system and doing it somewhere else. It is absolutely no different then patenting auctions in Idaho, North Greensville, or Antartica should it happen that there haven't been any auctions in those places before.
Note that the reason that auctions in Antartica is not an invention is not because it is useless - if half the world was to have to move Antartica tomorrow because of global warming, then it doesn't make my patent the slightest bit more justified. With or without patents, the first person after the Antartica immigration who thought "how can I sell all this junk" is going to invent the Antartica Auction - they do not deserve a prize for it.
While I'm at it, I'm going to patent wheels on Venus, shoes on Mars, CD players on the moon, grocery stores on Titan, mineral water on Europa, springs anywhere in the vicinity of the asteroid belt, and any application of Newton's laws of gravity outside the solar system. Where would the world be without geniuses like me?
These people would be better off as luddites idolizing Britney Spears with their waking hours instead of posting on the internet, polluting /. with these unproductive posts.
/.
Yes sir, you are so productive your self. If you are going to be critical of someone not reading the article, it helps to read it your self. It has everything to do with online auctions, and "MercExchange looking to sell it's auction-related patents". If you think the parent is stupid, by all means disagree, or even agree. I'd much rather see a post I consider to be stupid then a silly flame which implys idolizing Britney Spears is some how more worth while when reading
... placed with no intention of carrying out the grounds of the patent or are they actually using this technology they're noe trying to protect?
A blog I run for the wealth
Remember when Ebay got those retarded patents on showing thumbnails of items for auction? I think their whole schtick was that they had items from more than one database being presented in a single webpage or something. :P Well, this is karma.
I don't want to see anyone win here. I want to see the award reduced massively, and I want to see the person who filed the lawsuit vilified by everyone. I want the injunction to be granted and I want them to fight it out as long as possible while their online auctions taken down. I don't wany Ebay to sell out to another company. I want Ebay to enforce its online auction patents against everyone else doing online auctions and I want all online auction sites taken down.
I want this to be a big fucking huge giant mess that pisses every Internet user in the entire country off and has them asking: Why can't I sell my <worthless crap> anymore? How dare the government tell me I can't do this? You mean a bunch of *lawyers* can just take away the Internet?
It's wishful thinking, but I hope that Ebay goes all the way with this and tries to drag everyone down with them.
Best. Comment. Ever. Enjoy!
Realy this has got to stop. If I write it with a keyboard, it falls under Copyright. If I make a with a Physical thing, I can patent it.
What is so bad about this Philosphy?
Come the revolution, the Bourgeois, Capitalistic, "A PARKING STICKER HOLDERS", will be first against the wall!
Client : So, should we sue him, send a letter or what?
Lawyer : Nah, that's just being too litigious, lets wait a few weeks and see what happens.
Client: Hmm, okay.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I call him Line-uss
I'll call it Line-uhks
I'm for sure as hell not going to stand in a room and call it
Linnuks
I'm glad FreeBSD has no such problems, no wait, what about GNU/FreeBSD doh!
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
not "we are waiting for our patent"
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
I've had nothing but great success on ebay.co.uk
I spend about $5000 per year via ebay and I'm nothing but happy about it
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
MikeFM,
If that's prior art, let ebay know.
that pretty much kills the patent.
-john
Slashdot: you'll not find a more wretched collection of villainy and disreputable types...
In latest news, MercExchange began sending letters to hundreds of individual users warning them they could be liable for their use of infringing IP. Oops that's DirecTV^H^H^H^H^H^H^H SCO.
That was in 1992. It was all electronic. I don't have any real records of such things. It's not like I kept printouts or anything like that. It seems a lifetime ago when nobody else knew what the Internet was and you were the area alpha geek just for having a BBS.
What kind of records are needed for this kind of thing? Somewhere I might have some old checks I was sent or something like that. I might have a backup on a floppy somewhere if they haven't all gone bad.
At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
It's sad to see the US tech industry get choked to death like this. Pretty soon the legal issues involved in starting a company will be beyond most people.
I guess that soon most firms will have to 'do a KaZaA' and run through a web of intermediaries. On the up-side the Canary Islands sound like a lovely place to live :-)
Scarily my 3rd year uni project will probably also violate these kinds of patents.
"I like people. They're like little Happy Meals with legs" - Spike
Amazon lives and then dies by patents..
CEO's face on being fired for stupidity of Patents priceless!
Don't Tread on OpenSource
Looking at the verdict, independent claims 8, 15, and 26 were found infringed. Here are those claims:
Am I the only person who thinks this is a bad thing? I'm new to this 'ebay' thing, but I find it extremely convenient when I can simply 'Buy it now' istead of waiting a week for the auction to end and possibly being outbid.
Hopefully they will come up with a solution to this that will bypass this utterly retarded ruling...
I'm the guy with the unpopular opinion
I think you got it closer to reality. We lost control ages ago with the conflict of interest in congress where lawyers pass laws that enhance their profession, combined with the now contrived "two party" system where two private organizations have hijacked the entire government. Very few judges are not members of one of those two gangs who "share the wealth" on monopoilising government, through coercion and fraud amonth other methods. I mean, c'mon, they decide to only have their candidates in the "national debates", excluding even the candidates of very large third nationally recognized parties.
It's a junta all the way to the top. Once you realise that, all the rest of the discrepancies make sense. It doesn't make them right, it just makes sense then.
The second part is the destruction of jury nullification system, which was designed as one of the more key components in the checks and balances system, that "laws" themselves may be judged by the people. Too many cases out there where people even attempting this were actually threatened by "judges" or actually arrested on contempt charges. At a minimum, any truly informed potential juror will be excluded if either of the lawyers involved detects a hint of decent IQ or knowledge of the system. That is criminal in my book.
The system is broken, it's too far gone to fix without removing 90% (WAG obviously) of the employees involved. They will never give up their extremely lucrative cash and power cow voluntarily. And the obvious bribery that goes on with campaign contributions and lobbying is so blatant as to be laughable.
Short of armed anti-junta counter-coup which has occurred revolution, the best idea is mass shunning, al la the ghandi method. For real, I am completely serious about this. Just like what is about to occur in zimbabwe, a complete shunning and ignoring of the established junta, top to bottom and sideways. If everyone just one day sat down and stopped supporting them,stopped following their dictates and edicts, that's what would do it. Make everyone beforced to make a personal decision, you support the junta, or you do not,this perpetual hanging in the middle hoping it will be fixed or that the next computer controlled election will result in a fix is delusional and I'll go so far as to say cowardly at this point.
How long has this patent craze been going on? I've never seen a history of patent cases, and me only being 21, I certainly didn't hear about them. When did people start patenting obvious stuff and winning? Anyone know? What was the first landmark case?
I don't know the whole story about this lawsuit but at first glance, it seems that we won't be able to do much in a few years from now. Imagine that "The Bay" would have patented the process of selling goods in a store. So any store that are now in place would have to pay them a fee to have the right to open a store. That's basically what we're seeing here: if this kind of patent and lawsuit continue, we won't be able to publish a website in the future. We won't have the right to put a "Buy" button on the page and we won't be able to create search engine. Soon, we won't be able to do "bold italized text" as somebody will have a patent on putting these two tags together... I saw a comment about the US getting swamped with patents and I think they'll have to do some house cleaning soon if they want to be able to evolve and invent new products/solutions. I don't want either of the two companies to win and get the full right to Auction online. I want everybody to be able to create a new Auction online site if they feel they can offer something better. That's how society evolve. If you can't create anymore based on what exist, you'll have to reinvent the wheel all the time because you can't afford to pay all the rights for everything you're using in your new invention. That would be really sad... Etienne
One patent to rule them all, one patent to find them.
One patent to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
The idea of selling items for highest bidder and normal price, is nothng new, and has been arround for longer then this stupidity.
Free speech is getting expensive...
No, I think you are wrong. It is the lawyers. I am not talking about anyone in particular you know, or any one person, but the profession of lawyers. They created the environment where it is OK to file stupid lawsuits. What do they care, as long as they get paid.
Who do you think makes the laws? Lawyers. You can argue that they are drafted and passed by Congress or the Senate or the friggin PTA, but lawyers create and revise the laws. Everything has to be in correct legal terms. Everyone who has power has "legal council" who can manipulate the system. When you think of "scumbag" lawyers, it isn't just the ambulance chaser, it is also the divorce attorney who is trying to get his client all the money he can, or the defense attorney who gets his client off on a technicality when he was guilty. They manipulate the legal system to suit their own needs. All of them.
Our legal profession is a joke, and even if you aren't one of the bad guys, you have to play the bad guys' game. Now you might think that it is our legal system that is messed up, and you would be right, but who do you think created it? Lawyers created the legal system. Judges. They have created a nation of people whose first response to a problem is "sue them". They have created an environment where they are, consciously or not, creating job security. I am amazed at the people who scoff at the hot coffee lawsuit at McDonald's, yet their first thought when they are wronged is to sue someone. Some telemarketer called me in the middle of the night - I'll take them to court! Lawyers have dug themselves into the skin of our society, and have played a large part in ruining it. They have created an atmosphere of fear, where nobody will admit they are wrong - ever! If someone admits to being wrong, they are ripe for a lawsuit. Malpractice insurance is so high that some doctors can't stay in business. A doctor makes a mistake, and immediately runs to his legal council about what to do. Legal council will try to handle the issue within the legal system, which basically means trying to get the doctor absolved of any wrongdoing. The patient gets frustrated at playing the legal game, and decides to sue! It is insane.
I have a friend who is in law school, and he basically hates humanity right now. I would have classified him as morally questionable before he started this degree, but he is even put off by the legal profession. He told me he hates it. But that is where the money is at, which is pretty much the other half of the problem in this country. Combine greed and our legal system, and you have one fine clusterfuck of a society.
Hey, smartass, so what is the solution? I have no idea. We are in a bad situation, where the laws are simply growing and growing, and the attitude is getting worse and worse. I don't know how it can get better. Thank you, legal system, and all your lawyer henchmen, for making our society what it is today. I won't deny that there are some good lawyers out there, but they shouldn't even be necessary. The fact that you have to classify them as good or bad should tell you something. We have accepted the facts that our society has become a legal game. It is sad.
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
Correct Evil...the case revolves around the "buy it now" option. But that option is a significant revenue source for eBay. It's not something they want to eliminate lightly or pay licensing fees for.
where did my head get that rubbish from
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
From what I can see, the Patent Office isn't enforcing the non-obvious to a person skilled in the (relevant) art part of the patent criteria in a way that normal people would expect.
Apparently, obviousness in patents is based mostly on previous publications not actual obviousness, and the Patent Office has bizarrely decided that non-computer based business methods don't count as prior art for computer based business methods.
My humble suggestion is that the patent office should change their criteria for obviousness so that real world (non-computer based) business processes count as prior art for computer based business processes that do the same thing.
Hell, the Patent Office should change the criteria so if a bunch of college seniors respond with "no duh" to a patent application, it's classified as an obvious idea ;)
Ben in DC
"It's the mark of an educated mind to be moved by statistics" Oscar Wilde
Buy it now for a fixed price is just normal retail structuring. Bidding in various auction formats is just that, bidding. The combination of them isn't unique either, as other businesses have also been doing this for ages. Example, acme widgets has a normal business model, they sell their widgets. One day they decide, after the release of "new and improved" widgets, that they won't be selling their older ones in stock normally, they just want to dump them, so they have an out at the back docks lot-auction. The same docks and the same company are shipping the absolutely fixed price new widgets while the old ones get hauled off from a winning bid of less than a dollar on the old fixed dollar price,whatever that was an to whomever won. There's prior art all over, this entire case and a lot of other of these patent cases are examples of artificially constructed and X-treme governmental and lawyering busy-work, mostly to justify their existence as profitable institutions, mandated by law,and by "force". It's quite beyond ridiculous it appears,it got there a long time ago, and shows no evidence of getting any better in the future.
There's plenty of prior art out there on Usenet. Selling something for $X.XX Or Best Offer is equivalent to the eBay buy it now feature.
pretty funny! How about "where the bidder accesses the internet via a dialup modem whereby the data is sent over wires constructed of a copper alloy with a covering of plastic". Then add another patent "over a radio signal as the initial contact". Then they can patent how it is routed. Then approach it from the other guys side of the transaction, and the various combinations, each all unique in some small way. Then add in "using color representatiuons on a screen as opposed to only shades of gray". Then the variations of how much depth the colors have. Then the combination of words and pictures. Then the combinations of words, pictures, and sound. Then the possible combinations of monetary exchange units involved. Then the differences with various layers of "security". Then the differences with timezones. Then the ability to have it in different languages. Then,then,then...
MY GOD I HATE THAT COMPANY!
Maybe this is what the whole internet patent issue needs namely several hundred thousand pissed off Ebay sellers, you think that Slashdotters are vocal you should see these guys.
"It's so convenient to have a system where everyone is a criminal" - A. Hitler
They rely on the misleading alarmist headlines concocted by "Slashdot Inquirer" editorial department.
They do this because "Slashdot readers want to know".
Patents are aimed at stimulating inovation (*I agree that is very debatable, but that's the theory*). In return for publicly disclosing how the invention works, the inventor gets a 20 year monopoly on that implementation. And since there is no compulsory licensing, there may be no competition. After the patent is up anybody can implement and sell the exact same thing without having to pay any royalties. While a patent is in effect, a competitor is free to create an improved process and patent that.
That's the theory, but we all know the competitor would land in IP lawsuit hell and spend hundreds of thousands of dollars defending themselves.
And yes the good ol' "it works just like the real world, but on the internet" is a bogus patent (IMO).
Post anonymously - For when your opinion embarrasses even you!
Somewhat offtopic, but I've got a question about how eBay handles charging the seller. Is the percentage of the sale charged to the seller's credit card, or how is it done?
How does eBay make it economical to have millions of micro credit-card charges? I was always under the impression that credit card collection agencies charged a comission for each transaction conducted with a credit card. Is this how it works, or am I confused?
Thanks.
"And in related news, Christie's will now be filing suite against all other auction houses in the United States requiring them to pay a fee for holding auctions."
There are many things that people have posted and the arguments, briefs and explanations of the issues quite complex.
Honestly, I think this is just dumb. I wish the judges would declare a new classisfication besides dismissed.
"Earlier today the honorable Judge Thomas has declared the case against eBay Just Dumb. MercExchange will be required to pay a Dumb fine of $1, restricted to payments of one penny per month. Judge Thomas stated that the fine is appropriate for such a case, saying that hopefully corporations that are considering such dumb lawsuites review them before committing themselves to a dumb punishment. Violations to this payment plan will result in fines of up to and including $100 million. MercExchange could not be reached for comments at the time of this writing and it is suspected they are arranging a contract with a bank to ensure their penny-a-month payment."
"Last one in is a rotten goblin!" - Kepp
The technology in question is "Fixed Price" auctions. Auctions that have "Buy it now" on them. Back in the day (pre-1994) I used to do comic auctions on the usnet and we used that trick all the time. It was known as the "Buyout". Here's a link to an auction back then that had a buyout (not mine, just the first one I found). There's plenty more:
Buyout Auction
=Shreak
"Meanwhile, ePier announced a feature late last week that allows sellers to display their phone number on auction listings."
Look for the story in 6 months: EPier sues online auction sites over patented "seller phone number listing" technology.
It's great to see such an innovative approach to litigation. I can see how these MercExchange people got their name -- they're mercenary sons of bitches, and they want to exchange intellectual property!
My only concern is that they will sell their patent portfolio to a big corporation without thinking, and won't get fair market value for their original ideas.
I suggest they put the patent portfolio up for auction on eBay! That should fetch them a good price.
ya, so I have multiple online auction patents.
this is how the big boys play today.
show me your venom.
The only way this kind of patent-abuse nonsense is ever going to stop in the short term is if enough people get PO'ed enough to put forth strong political pressure for reform. Software and business practice patents are a serious threat to innovation and the economy in general. We need the nation's tech entrepreneurs to rise up in opposition and let their voices be heard.
A funny thing about this story is that those of us who trade these stocks were *desperate* to get info on how the trial was going.. And for weeks and weeks there was none. Nothing. Nada.
Piddly lawsuits against Ebay that are inconsequential (bidder liable suits, etc) get lots of coverage. But one that can have a material impact gets covered up.. Probably because the media companies hold shares in funds which are long on Ebay stock.
Be the first kid on your street to collect them all!
Sandra Day O'Connor, I choose you! Hit them with your 14th ammendment attack.
Think of all of the merchandising fees we could make...
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
Nothing new to see here, the patent office has had its head up its own ass for some time now. I think Im going to run off and patent a method for transporting oneself by placing one foot in front of the other in repetitive succession.
TM
Support TBI Research: http://www.raisinhope.org
I have a job for you: Use your presumably-exposed head to tell me how a patent on swinging sideways has decreased anyone's freedom. Bonus points will be awarded for explaining how to make money from the idea of swinging sideways.
we are not using patents as a way to stifle creativity in this country, it is just your imagination, now please move along there is nothing to see here...
errr....umm...*whooosh* *whoosh* Is this thing on ?
this is the best news evar. seriously i'm so sick of people claiming patents on stuff they have no right to. if this put ebay out of business the only thing better would be impeaching bush.
Well why didn't the article say so in the first place? So all Ebay has to do is change the "Buy it Now" to "Buy it now for (1 * rand(10)) cent more".
Tada. No more fixed price.
Stupidity.
I registered auctionnet.com in July of 1995 a full four months before this guy applied for his patent and I had to settle for that domain name because someone else had already gotten auction.com. Just what does this judge think we were doing with the domain names like these?
You've got to be kidding me, you're actually using the lame 'politically correct' argument on the pronunciation of Linux? Give us a break!
:) It's forever Lie-nix for me. :)
/. user ID is far lower than yours, so I win by default. :)
I'll give that some want to pronounce it Linnux (I think that sounds stupid, but it's just my personal opinion) but by the same token, expect me to get offended when some punk ass gives me shit for calling it Lie-nix.
I've chosen my side on the dumb name game, but as top Linux admin in the company I work for (Big fortune 50 company even) I've been known to flaunt my 'authority' and arrogantly demand someone to leave my area, come back in, and try again when some junior techie wants my help with "Linnux". It's great BOFH-type fun. You should try it.
And my
Actually I'd bet a LOT of things 5th graders come up with are non-obvious (by any definition) and probably should be marketed and patented.
Or wait, maybe I'm thinking of 1st graders. By 5th grade they are pretty well ingrained to our capitalist-hierarchy society-school structures.
8-PP
Survival instinct in the modern world means justifying your job.
It's the corallary to "Give a boy a hammer, and everything looks like a nail."
Give a lawyer a legal system and everything looks like a lawsuit.
The best measure of success of the legal system would be to have less lawsuits, but that flies in contrast to lawyers justifying their existence.
"No matter where you go, there you are." -- Buckaroo Banzai
i here by warn all users of slash dot that i have patented /. and a five cent usd royalties is required per troll posting!!!