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U.S. Imposes Big Tariffs On Korean Chipmakers
dipfan writes "This is serious - the U.S. government has decided to levy steep import tariffs on South Korean computer chips (and Vietnamese catfish). The result is a 44 percent tariff on DRAM semiconductors made by Hynix. The case was brought by Micron Technology on the grounds that the South Koreans were receiving unfair subsidies. Hynix says the tariff is 'outrageous', and the South Koreans plan to appeal to the World Trade Organisation."
Micron's lobbying wouldn't have anything to do with Micron posting a loss last quarter, would it? Nah. Of course not.
ft
eetuk
ZDNET
e-insite
Bush should be trying to stimulate the tech economy. Instead, he's killing the US$ to historic lows, and now this? Pretty weak!
Demand free trade to 3rd world countries, close the internal market. Nothing to see here.
If the U.S. is going to get itself involved in the WTO, it should learn to play by it's own rules. Free trade? Or free trade only when it's good for us?
Sombody took a cue from the dorks trying to destroy the Canadian lumber industry, I see.
Korea, welcome to the club.
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"nosce te ipsum"
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-:
MakeTradeFair.com
Just another example of the hypocritical U.S Government. They constantly scream they are all for free trade yet when things arn't going their way, they the scales in their favour. Hopefully this won't spark a trade war........
as per US tariff trade law. Just the same way that US steel and lumber tariffs to US steel companies and US lumber companies respectively. Basically this means that the comsumer pays for the inefficiency of these firms, and those same inefficient firms get rewarded for their lack of productivity. Wacky system. Let he with the most lobbying money win.
I see that the U.S. government is continuing it's slide into the corporate welfare government. Corporations don't need welfare and protection. If they can't compete, get the fuck out or find a new business plan.
Maybe that means that Micron needs put a plant in Korea or something. I don't know. But as a consumer I want the lower prices, it makes me want to go and buy more memory. I don't see my government acting in my favor here.
sri
This gives Micron carte blanche to raise their prices by 44%, which while it may save a few jobs in Idaho, will ultimately cost even more jobs at US companies that buy memory (think the likes of Dell and so forth).
Tariffs BAD! Free trade GOOD!
These are the wonders that show how god damn corrupt we really are. Anyone with the slightest understanding of economics understands the problem: yeah, all you people loose ... but Micron gains, so they lobby. It's a shame that in 2003 we still fight wars and impose tariffs. No hope left...
What? I am missing some hot chicks because I use Mozilla? WTF is happening? How about posting a image url? :Ãz
US government imposes tariffs due to foreign subsidised business selling into the US market.
Pot calls kettle black.
The US government is the worst offender on Earth with subsidising industries to kill foreign competition.
Is the free market being peddled by the US so hard to implement on their own shores? Do they hate others using their own tactics against them?
This tariff has been in the air for Hynix for a few months now. They're getting it easier than originally proposed: the tariff was originally 57%. Also, the US is not the only one sticking it to the Koreans: the European Commission smacked them with a 37% duty too.
In Soviet Russia, Jesus asks: "What Would You Do?"
Why? So they can be fried instead of eaten raw?
"And this is my boy, Sherman. Speak, Sherman." "Hello." "Good boy."
Just like we tax polluting fuels to encourage alternatives, this would have a very positive effect on "alternative" operating systems.
I don't suppose too much of the US computer industry will be happy about this, seeing as it is bound to drive up prices when the sector is on the edge...
Exactly the same thing happened with Canadian softwood lumber even though we have a supposed free trade agreement. It'll go to the WTO, the S. Koreans will win but that'll take years. In that time, their industry is crippled.
Although this will result in somewhat higher prices in the short term it should result in the long term viability of the market. Hynix has been illegally propped up by their government many times and their ability to sell products below cost just weakens the entire sector. Add to that the fact that the union blackmailed the company into not accepting a takeover bid from a company that might have actually turned em around and I doubt that the WTO will do much to the Americans.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
Welcome to the invisible corruption. The consumer now supports micron to be inefficient, and looses out big time. If Korea was subsidizing their DRAM makers, we should be happy: That would mean their tax payers are paying for us to have cheap memory. However, since Micron gains with the tariffs, the gains are concentrated to one company and they lobby (probably pay) government officials for the tariffs. Such a shame, because it happens much more than we know about; this is on slashdot because it is about DRAM. If only everyone could see ...
Unless you intend travelling overseas in the near future (and that puts you in a minority of Americans) you should be putting your (American-made) party hats on and celebrating this end to an imbalanced economy.
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from a rigged demo
--Andy Finkel (J. Klass?)
of the 190 billion in subsidies the American Government will be passing out to farmers over the next ten years.
Boffoonery - downloadable Comedy Benefit for Bletchley Park
Korea makes a huge amount of different kind of embedded electronics. For example, they export a huge number of the ATMs in use in the United States. If I remember correctly (and I may not) Chung Ho electronics makes a big perecentage of them. Glory brand ATMs are also manufactured in Korea, IIRC.
You *will* be screwed by this ruling, regardless of where you live. Prices for various electronics will be going up.
The next Slashdot story will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush and slashdot the links early!
Samsung,
Samsung,
sell me some dram please.
I use Samsung,
and I pay just the price that I please.
There are no lousy tariffs,
to mess with me or the Sheriff.
So up the price,
for Hynix rice,
and I'll go on my way like the brezzeeeeee!
Micron is NOT inefficient, in fact they are one of the more healthy memory makers, it's just that they can't compete with a government propped business that dumps chips below production costs. The EU is not very happy about Hynix either so it's not just the American's protecting a weak company.
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
but isn't this essentially what caused the Boston Tea Party. I know that the markets have to be regulated to some extent, but the government should not be allowed to grant a monopoly or break up a monopoly (unless it was formed illegally) that was built from the ground. And that is basically what they are doing, even if it doesn't seem like it now but it is a real possibility in the future.
Why is everyone siding with the subsidized competition? If the Korean government is giving money to Hynix, then they are clearly not playing by the rules of free trade--so why should Micron? Until the Koreans get in line and stop giving taxpayer dollars to their own corporations so they can dump products here*, there is no reason for the US to let them get away with it. The US is only counteracting Korea's unfair practices until it stops this action. I applaud this move. It will force the Korean government to get in line with the global free market, at which point, the tariff will be dropped, and the market will be free to correct itself.
* just like Japan did with automakers back in the 1980s, look what happened when they finally gave in to free trade--their market had to correct itself
From Cringely's "Accidental Empires":
In 1975, Japan's Ministry for International Trade and Industry had organized JApan's leading chip makers into two groups-- NEC-Toshiba and Fujitsu-Hitachi-Mitsubishi-- to challenge the United States for the 64K DRAM business. They won. By 1985, these two groups has 90 percent of the U.S. market for DRAMs. American companies like Intel, which had started out in the DRAM business, quit making the chips because they weren't profitable, cutting world DRAM production capacity as they retired. To make matters worse, the United States Department of Commerce accused the Asian DRAM makers of dumping-- selling their memory chips in America at less than it cost to produce them. The Japanese companies cut a deal with the United States government that restricted their DRAM distribution in America-- at a time when we had no other reliable DRAM sources. Big mistake. Memory supplies dropped just as memory demand rose [OS/2 had created a need for RAM] , and the classic supply-demand effect was an increase in DRAM prices, which more than doubled in a few months. Toshiba, which was nearly the only company making 1 megabit DRAM chips for a while, earned more than $1 billion in profits on its DRAM business in 1989, in large part because of the United States government.
Actually it is an example of pig headedness. If the US market breeds unfair competition, then it should rethink its business model instead of imposing large and/or illegal tarrifs.
Did you know that the US thinks the Canadian Wheat Board subsidized farmers off the books, to sink American farmers, and so Canadian farmers are being unfairly abused by the American market.
Or how about the illegal [as the WTO ruled] tarrif on Softwood lumber?
Or how about the Mad Cow related Canadian beef ban, when the cow has ties to Montana, USA?
Double standard? You bet.
Why slashdot? Why not?
Hynix announces high volume trade agreement with major EU computer retail chains. Maybe. If the US doesn't want cheap good stuff, other countries will be happy to take it.
This sort of carry-on is why many countries no longer give a toss about "free trade" agreements with the US - they're not worth the paper they're written on if the gubment feels so inclined.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Which begs the question, if I go to Canada and buy said electronics, what do I have to do to bring them back to the US (legally)?
Ok I see a lot of people seeing this as a very bad thing, but I'm not so sure. The fact is the Korean government broke some international buisness laws and without that, Hynix would already be out of buisness.
Hopefully this trend will continue so places where they pay their workers $5 a day or give huge illegal donations to a dying company will end so not all our American tech companies don't leave the US. I have seen a disturbing trend in companies leaving the US to take advantage of other countrys less strick workers benifits and rights.
Although I might just be totally biased as I used to live in Boise and have many friends who work at Micron, although Samsung is more than enough competition left for Micron in the dram industry.
The WTO is always rules against protectionist tarrifs and environmental laws. I dont' have the exact statistics with me, but in an INSANELY high number of cases, the WTO has ruled in favor of the country issuing the complaint. Off the top of my head, i'd say its around 90%, but I'm sure someone out there can find the exact number.
I can't see any reason why this would be different. It seems highly likely that the WTO will rule in favor of Korea blocking this particular tariff.
I'm torn on this. I despise the WTO and how they have the power to to step in and tell our democratically elected government what to do, but this might be the one time I'll be glad for their interfering. I gots to have my computer parts on the cheap. . .
As a Candaian living by our forest industry region this sounds exactly like the crap the americans gave us on our softwood.
I never realized how bad net porn was till I broke my arm
While I am an avid free-trade advocate, I must back the US position on this one. Hynix has been bailed out a number of times by Seoul, and they've recieved enormous tax breaks.
The 44% tarriff is excessive, but that's the whole point: it's a slap in the face to wake the Koreans up. Eventually, this will get watered down in the WTO, but not until the same WTO pushes Seoul to tone down it's own corporate capitalism efforts.
I see all the standard anti-US rhetoric is in full swing already, so I won't broach that one....
davejenkins.com |
I think it's great that the U.S. finally gave Hynix the boot. The S. Korean government has been keeping them alive and competing with our companies, even though Hynix has failed to produce a profit and would basically go in the red if it weren't for all the government money keeping it alive.
Companies like that deserve to die - if you're not producing a profit, and you're causing U.S. companies to lose money, why should the U.S. continue to allow you to do business with us? It's our semiconductor industry vs. the entire south korean government - that's bad for the people who work at micron and other semiconductor companies. Think about the people trying to make a living here, for pete's sake.
It's hard enough dealing with domestic competitors, let alone an entire foreign government. 100% tariff would do just fine too.
This tariff is a tax on the American consumer. The federal government has just raised the cost of a product by 44%. There is no rational economic justification for this tax. If the South Korean government wants to spend money to subsidize a company that is the problem of the South Korean tax payer, not the U.S. federal government. The government is interfering in the market in order to subsidize a politically well connected company. They are no better than the South Korean government. The best the U.S. federal government can do, would be to remove its military from South Korea and force the South Korean government to bear the expense of maintaining a military to defend itself from North Korea. In that scenario the South Korean government would have to decide if they should be spending their money subsidizing companies or training an adequate military.
Stuart Eichert
- "In 2000, Korea was the United Statesâ(TM) sixth largest export market. In 2000, two-way merchandise trade between the United States and Korea reached record levels, totaling $68.2 billion, compared with $54.3 billion for 1999."
- 8% tariff on US automobile imports into Korea
- 317% import tariff on US potato products
From the ZDNet article, "Semiconductors are South Korea's biggest export and generated $16.6 bn in overseas sales in 2002. DRAM exports represent 35 percent of total semiconductor exports."
From a CIA report, South Korea's total exports for 2002 was $159.2 billion.
This implies that ~10% of the Korean economy is in semiconductor sales alone. Recall that recently South Korea is warming up to North Korea, and if we add that Pres. Bush has already put North Korea on notice regarding their weapon exports, we should not be surpised that the government would penalize the friend of your enemy.
My personal beliefs are that that tariffs are bad on both imports and exports, but after reading the report on how much Korea taxes US exports, I don't pity them.
Interestingly enough, "In spring 2000, Korea was elevated to the Special 301 "priority watch list" as a result of continuing concerns regarding inadequate IPR enforcement, lack of protection for clinical drug test data, lack of full retroactive protection for pre-existing copyrighted works and pharmaceutical patents, problematic amendments to Koreaâ(TM)s Copyright Act and Computer Program Protection Act, lack of coordination between Korean health and IPR authorities on drug product approvals for marketing, and continued counterfeiting of consumer products."
Steel tarriffs. US steel manufacturers weren't competitive, and it was much cheaper to import steel from elsewhere (eg, Russia) than to buy it from US makers.
The Dubya solution to this problem? Slap heavy tarriffs on imported steel.
So much for fair trade, a free market and a unhindered economy.
It's not like that's the only example either. US lumber mills are less productive and more expensive than their Canadian counterparts, who've spent considerable millions becoming more efficient and cost effective.
The reward for this Canadian efficiency? Tarriffs on soft-wood lumber.
So much for NAFTA.
Opinion on Dubya is heavily polarised (you either love him or hate him and I'm not going to get into that debate here) but even his staunchest supporters would have a hard time arguing that he's an advocate of free trade.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
But, as I've said, it's no news. Recently, U.S. Gov. has put huge barriers against steel from others, more competitive countries (Brazil, E.U., etc.).
U.S. preaches capitalism to the world, and, by the way, I have nothing against that. But, when others show themselves better than U.S. in some tiny economic niche, all the courageous, competitive dogma goes away and "protective tarrifs" come in place.
Wasn't big american companies also subsidized? Airlines, Aerospace companies, etc...? What is so different with South Koreans?
What's good for the steel manufacturers (high tarriffs on foreign steel imports) isn't good for steel consumers.
Why should construction companies, etc have to pay an artificially inflated price for a vital commodity? Why should a shipyard on either coast have to support a steel mill in the Midwest?
What you forget is that by making the US steel manufacturers more competitive, you're making US steel consumers less competitive. Overnight, these steel tarriffs have made it harder for US shipbuilders to compete in the global market. The same is true of other industries too.
So, in essence, Dubya is robbing Peter to pay Paul in the hope that he can secure Paul's vote in the future and that Peter won't notice.
Yay for free trade!
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
You don't see the FDA slamming down on southern producers who label Bullfish as Catsish, why would we unfairly require the vietnamese to make a distinction between their not-quite catfish and our not-quite catfish?
if you're not producing a profit, and you're causing U.S. companies to lose money, why should the U.S. continue to allow you to do business with us?
Hmmm. Let's outlaw the U.S. Post Office then. Seriously, does this bit of extremism apply to U.S. companies that aren't turning a profit, and competing with other U.S. companies? Or just foreign companies?
For that matter, what makes a U.S. company a U.S. company? Most of the big corps are technically out of The Bahamas or similar countries who've found a nice little niche by shielding companies from the tax men of the countries in which they do business.
I'm no economist, but I think it's pretty obvious that whatever governmental assistance Seoul provides Hynix is pretty much being met tit-for-tat, and then some, with this tarriff. Not surprising that Washington would choose this tactic, though, since they've already imposed tarriffs on Canadian lumber and European steel. While these tarriffs certainly protect American jobs, a cynical view is that the imposition of these tarriffs is not so much about protecting our economy, it's more about protecting electoral votes in Pennsylvania. Though that argument doesn't make a lot of sense when applied to Washington timber. It does make sense in Micron's home state(s) of Idaho (and Virgina, after acquisition of Toshiba's facilities there).
Political cynicism aside, one thing I did learn (Bueller? Bueller?) is that the Hawley-Smoot Tarriff Act was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back and led to the Great Depression. Is saving the White House worth a repeat of that?
Finally, you end with the statement "It's hard enough dealing with domestic competitors..." Which domestic competitors are you talking about? Who else makes DRAM in the USA? I was under the impression that Micron was it.
To sum up: I guess we should go ahead and slap a huge tarriff on Airbus as well! Because surely the American consumer will benefit when Boeing, protected by exorbitant tarriffs, can charge the airlines whatever they please for a new 737.
Man. Are you lost.
The US is one of the world's largest manufacturers and exporters. Why do you think most large US companies have sales offices all over the world. Think IBM, Microsoft, Oracle. Equipment manufacturers like Caterpillar. Telecom like ATT. All these firms bring in a large amount of money from foreign countries.
Get this straight. The problem is not that small countries rely on the US for handouts. The problem is unfair trade policies that actualy hinder these countries ability to compete.
Policies like demanding they open their markets while protecting yours.
Based on upvotes, Ageism is the only "-ism" Slashdotters care about and think isn't SJW
The South Koreans plan to appeal to the World Trade Organisation.
... so?! Last time I checked, America, for better or worse, does whatever the hell it damn well pleases. We didn't need NATO's permission to go bomb the crap out of Iraq, and we sure as hell don't need the WTO's permission to levy tariffs on U.S. imports!!!
Ummm
Cyde Weys Musings - Scrutinizing the inscrutable
I see so many people here falling into the contra-positive of the broken window fallacy it is scaring me.
There is a shop with a store front window. A vandal comes by and throws a rock right through the window. At first the store owner is disstressed about this. However, he then realizes even though he has to pay for a new window and installer. The window guy will in turn hire a plumber, who will buy a sandwich, the chef will buy a microwave, the consumer electronics guy will buy something from his shop. It will be great for everyone. Accordingly, he decides we need more vandals to make the world a better place. You heard a lot of this weak argument during 9/11. Although, 9/11 is more complex since it involved huge sums of insurance money, reinsurers, etc.
What is wrong with this argument? Well, the answer is simple the store owner would have spent his money on something else beside the window. While the window guy is certainly happy, the refridgerator guy is now seriously bumming that he didn't get a sale. Or let's say he bought the window instead of shoes, the shoe guy would be bumming.
Now I have seen several people arguing the South Korean government subsidizing memory is bad for the United States. This the broken window fallacy in REVERSE. When someone gives you something it is a net positive. It's better than if you had made it yourself. You now have money you can spend on other things. While it might be hard for micron its GOOD for computer users. They will have more money to spend on new nVidia GeForce 5800FX Ultra Deluxe Turbo Gold Millenium Edition cards or whatever.
Remember, other peoples governments giving us money (even in the form of memory) is a good thing for our economy. Don't be led into this fallacy that its more important to keep our money "internal." The greedy strategy tends yield an amazingly near optimal solution. Government intervention will always lead something ineffecient taking place.
Yes, there is the case where there could be a strategic move to lower prices to force out a competitor and in the long term raise prices. However, this market has way too many firms for any one firm to gain that kind of control.
I would much rather have more money rather than letting the U.S. government and Micron have it. As a side note, luckily they didn't implement quotas which would have just given Hynix the ability to sell at a higher price...
That's pretty funny.
Baseline magazine profiled US Steel a few months ago. Thanks to robotics and other automation, it takes 2 workers to produce a quanity of steel that 35 Koreans produce. They also make the steel for at 1/5 of the cost of the Koreans.
So why has US Steel been near bankruptcy for years? Pension & Healthcare costs (many government mandated), which consume nearly 80% of revenues.
If you want the trappings of a civilized society, (things like disability insurance, healthcare, pensions) there is a cost associated with that.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Homer: Lisa, a guy who's got lots of ivory is less likely to hurt Stampy than a guy whose ivory supplies are low.
-- Simpsons [1F15] "Bart Gets an Elephant"
Carthago delenda est!
Micron will gain market share in the US, but it will lose market share in the rest of the world as the Korean firm moves all their output to other places. As Micron loses world share they have to dump all their production in the US, depressing prices. Net effect on prices in the US? Nil. Net effect on prices in the rest of the world? Nil.
And don't forget that pre-built computers can still get in the US with Korean DRAM with no tariff. This only applies to DRAM not in a computer already.
I sure hope the memory served if it was $100/MB.
Not that I support the tariff, but it seems like slashdotters don't know the whole story, so let me explain.
Hynix, for the last few years, has been losing a LOT of money, mostly due to the commoditization of DRAM and general Asian economic malaise. A couple years ago, Micron offered to buy Hynix. Hynix refused and instead kept taking out loans and otherwise attempted to stay afloat. (Hynix was bailed out a couple times after the first proposal. Some of these loans were from government owned banks; also, apparently, Hynix received some direct subsidies from the Korean government.)
Last year, though, Hynix's bad fortune came to a head, and the company was on the verge of collapse. Micron again offered to buy Hynix, and after extensive negotiations, it seemed like the merger would go through. But for some inexplicable reason, at the last minute Hynix refused the offer, claiming it wasn't high enough. (I say inexplicable because there were no other buyers or potential buyers and Hynix was ridiculously deeply indebted -- in this situation (i.e., close to bankruptcy with a viable way out), refusing to merge was almost probably (at least in America) not in the best interests of its shareholders.) Some creditors tried to band together and force Hynix to sell itself (after the two bailouts, creditors were the biggest shareholders) but that didn't pan out.
As Hynix's debt grew and grew and its financial state deteriorated (even after two huge bailouts) everyone knew that Hynix needed to get acquired -- even the government encouraged it. However, Korean politicians, civic groups and industry leaders outwardly opposed Hynix's acquisition by a foreign company; they wanted to figure out a way to keep Hynix Korean. From what I remember, a few months ago Hynix went through a restructuring/recapitalization and got some debt relief, but its financial prospects haven't improved.
Hynix's survival is very, very strange given its circumstances, except when you realize that its survival is only due to tremendous political pressure to keep the company alive for a Korean acquirer. Otherwise, I think that financial analysts have uniformly agreed that Hynix needs to get acquired by somebody.
For better or for worse, Micron had a strong argument. Hynix should probably not be independent right now, and is only so because of the direct (and indirect) help of the Korean government. Also, the overall effect has been really bad: Hynix's non-creditor shareholders have been screwed repeatedly in the bailouts (convertible debt is great for creditors, horrible for current shareholders); Korean government-owned banks have arguably wasted insane amounts of money by riskily throwing it Hynix; and now, prices for DRAM will artificially go up because of the tariffs.
This has to be the work of the RIAA! (I tried to think of a way to blame it on SCOX, I got nothing. :^)
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
Interesting, once "national" interests come into play then free trade goes out the window...
Is that how I should view things? Because if that is what you are saying it is extremely two faced! Other countries are saying the same thing btw. However to the American politicians they are viewed as "isolationist", etc..
You know that is what trade is about. Specializing in specific tasks that the other one cannot do as efficiently. But I suppose it only applies until "national interests" come into play...
This is the problem of the current administration. They are two faced and see things using only one perspective. It is going to get them burned...
"You can't make a race horse of a pig"
"No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
Has reported a loss in the last 22 of 25 quarters.
Is being investigated by DOJ for price fixing.
Tried to force smaller manufacturers out of business with predatory pricing, which is part of the reason for huge losses and cheap DRAM.
Never intended to buy Hynix and unlikely to have capital to do so anyway. Just wanted to look at the books which has lead to the current tariffs being imposed against Hynix.
Drat -- someone caught onto our scheme! I regret that our business arrangment has come to an end, because I was looking for more of your money to subsidize my continuing purchases of Korean memory products.
We both know that long-term, your largesse has one obvious effect, long-term: namely, that your money creates some great bargains for purchasers of specially-supported companies' products.
It was fun while it lasted, though. If you care to subsidize any other products, I hope you will especially consider paying for part of my next LCD panel; they're still more expensive than I would like, and it would be nice if you could chip in a few bucks.
Thanks in advance,
timothy
p.s. In regards to our prior correspondence: maybe I wasn't clear. No, I actually don't care to artificially prop up any domestic businesses to achieve some sort of artificial parity in price or export numbers. I'll consider it, but it seems pretty irrational, except on the part of the subsidized business.
jrnl: http://tinyurl.com/c2l8yr / foes: http://tinyurl.com/ckjno5
Well no you are right, all the jobs should be kept here.
I'm bitching at the President because hes the leader of the free world and hes not doing shit. Hes not doing anything at all to improve this economy, he has done absolutely NOTHING thats why I bitch.
Until he produces results, I'm going to be pissed, oh and wheres Bin Laden, wheres Saddam? Wheres the weapons of mass destruction? Why arent our borders secure?
Oh and Bush is currently being investigated, for all we know the whole Iraq war could have been one big hoax.
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Sorry did you say *little* more cost? Try $50 Billion/year for us and $150 Billion a year for the third world. link. Steel tariffs alone are essentially paying US steel workers each something like $80,000 in inefficient prices. Yet they don't really make that much, even though we pay it. Poverty is not a measure of how much you make, but of how much you can buy. Tariffs *invariably* make consumers poorer.
Boom Shanka
That's exactly what the US said about softwood lumber. Despite the fact they've said it three times before and have been proven wrong each time,and despite preliminary rulings coming down suggesting they'll be proven wrong yet again.
It's also exactly what the US said with respect to Canada's grain industry, despite the nine previous times they've said so, and being proven wrong each and every time.
So you'll excuse me if I don't believe the US BS.
That Jesus Christ guy is getting some terrible lag... it took him 3 days to respawn! -NJ CoolBreeze
I live in Boise, ID, headquarters of Micron Technology. Micron is the the largest private employer in Boise (and Idaho, for that matter), so criticizing the company is often risky business considering all the company loyals in town, as well as the clout they hold on local leaders. There has been almost no direct negative press about MU in the local newpapers or media.
In January, Micron CEO Steve Appleton held a press conference and announced a "product misstep" was to blame for several quarters of steep losses. This "misstep" is Micron's leapfrog to DDR400, which essentially left them out of the hot market for all of 2002. This press conference was covered lightly, and the media certainly didn't dwell on it this revelation.
By March, nearly everybody had forgotten about Appleton's admission of "misstep"ing the company into perpetual quarterly losses, and decided to go on the spin campaign. Another press conference was called to announce the company's losses were the fault of subsidized Korean chip maker Hynix. This time, every media outlet in driving distance was notified. U.S. Senator Mike Crapo was on hand to lend his support for the home-town corporation and blast the Korean government for propping up Hynix and running Micron into the ground. This story ran for several days in the local media.
Appleton masterfully deflected earnings shortcomings from himself to the Koreans, and at the same time positioned Micron to be the beneficiary of "emergency" protection from the the US International Trade Commision, the body who deals with trade complaints from US companies. Interestingly, according to US trade law, it is not necessary for the ITC to have conclusive evidence of dumping/subsidies/etc to grant short-term protective tariffs. They need only have proof that there may be "unfair" trade practices taking place. In addition, the ITC may levy countervailing duties against foreign offenders if a company is harned, or may be harmed, by fair and legal trade .
As with most protection, the consumer ends up footing the bill. The greatly inceased duty on Korean chips will drive up the price in the DRAM market and force US consumers to pay artifically high prices. Meanwhile, Micron recovers and Appleton saves face. These duties are NOT about Korean subsidies, they are about Micron trade protection wrapped in an All-American, patriotic, apple-pie-loving shell.
Just remember who's paying for the "product misstep": YOU!!!
If the South Koreans think no competitor will rise up after they stop dumping, then they're delusional. If on the other hand, the South Koreans believe they can subsidize my US lifestyle forever, then I wish them all the best.
Long live South Korea !
Sincerely,
Selfish And Proud of It
And, one more question... how did Sadam get that nerve gas in the first place?
A) after a bad fart, he had an ingenious idea
B) stole it from someone
C) those freedom hating French gave it to him
D) his pal George Sr. was quite happy to sell it to him, and probably his taliban friends too
enter sig here
One only need look to a current news article to see why:
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= cnet).
Micron Sees Improved PC Demand, Even Though Dell Doesn't(http://biz.yahoo.com/tsp/030611/10093006_
Hmmm...which of the two companies mentioned has a better track record at the PC industry? Does Micron even make PCs anymore?
This Hynix dumping thing is really just a lame attempt to cover up some very stupid decisions on part of Micron.
When the Hynix acquisition didn't pan out, what did Micron do? Go and buy Toshiba's DRAM operation instead.
All this in 2001, during a time of falling prices (http://news.com.com/2100-1001-271208.html?legacy
Now they're saddled with overcapacity and lost something like $900million on sales of almost $2billion. Nobody to blame but themselves.
If you google around a bit, you'll find that chemical weapons are pretty hard to destroy and require very large incinerators that would easily be spotted by satelliete.
This is totally and utterly wrong. Don't believe everything you read on the internet, son...
When I did my military service we were trained in destroying chemical weapons.
They are pretty reactive (otherwise they would be lousy weapons), and can easily be neutralized by ordinary household cleaning products, or gasoline (Iraq certainly had no shortage of that one...).
I have personally tried this with both sarin (a nerve-agent) and mustard-gas, and were told it would work on other substances, like Fosgen or VX too.
Most chemical weapons also decay with time (very reactive, remember) and thus proving that Iraq had working nerv-agents a decade ago doesn't prove they had it now since their proven 1993 weapons would be unsable by now.
Chemical weapons are horrible, but you don't have to believe all the FUD and propaganda surrounding them.
"First lesson," Jon said. "Stick them with the pointy end."
Like there is anything steel-specific in this...
All industries face that kind of price competition when they cease to innovate significantly. Decades ago, cloths, steel, shipyards, cars etc... became commodities and their production was gradually transferred to emerging countries. This is a Good Thing (TM) as it both lowers the price of standard products in developped countries while stifling growth and wealth in emerging countries.
The only solution for western producers is to continually innovate to support a superior price. Nowadays, nobody still produces cloth in developped countries except for high quality, high tech speciality stuff. The western car industry suffered tremendously in the 70's when the technology became mundane enough for Korea to mass-produce cars cheaply. The western industry reacted by a massive rightsizing, innovation (ABS, air-bags...), superior development process, better design and good marketing.
The steel industry is no different. The world's largest steel producer is Arcelor, an French-Belgian conglomerate. They have outsourced standard production to emerging countries and have developped high value added products (flat steels) that justify a double or triple price. And believe me, with all their taxes and social contributions, labor costs in France or Belgium are not cheaper than in the US.
Cost dumping will always exist. It drives costs down, stimulates innovation and allows third world development if managed correctly. Tariffs are a short-sighted answer. They delay the inevitable while artificially maintaining high prices and inefficient businesses.
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
--that's where produced wealth comes from "resources". You can either grow them, or mine them, then you make things out of the other two products, and that's about it. That is really it, there's no other way to create wealth. Try to pick out any product that isn't based eventually down the line to something that isn't mined or grown. Even computer data-written software, programs- all dependent on mined products then turned into manufactured goods.
There's no way around it, any successful nation will manufacture and have agriculture as a business, once it stops those two things it's economy starts to slide downhill. They can exist for awhile trading around other nations manufactured and grown and mined products, but eventually those people will cut you-the middleman-out. They won't need you. And once you don't have any of your own products, then even your fiat money ceases to be valuable, exactly what is happening to the US dollar. The US dollar is known in slang terms under two versions, the world reserve currency and also the petro dollar. It became the reserve currency because of being the petrodollar currency(simplistic, obviously more factors involved, ww2 reconstruction was a large one for example). It was the petrodollar because the cash went to oil producing nations, because that's all we offered in exchange for the oil, and the only reason they took those petro dollars in the first place is because they could turn around and purchase US manufactured or grown products, and part of those products were the oil business machinery, then weapons, which every goombah in the middle east loves. Now that that is no longer necessary, because we short sightedly exported our manufacturing, there is less and less need to even use US dollars. They can continue to devalue the dollar, but it's a vicious circle, because as fast as we destroying manufacturing in the US, that makes the dollar even of less worth to purchase the remaining manufactured goods. So they devalue again, we sell a few things, but then it doesn't matter, they are worth less, so they have to further devalue. On and on, rinse lather repeat.
Canada can delay it longer than the US because it has a much lower per capita ratio to your own still useable natural resources, which allows you to create wealth vertically. The smart thing to do is to keep manufacturing, to refine your grown and mined natural resources into saleable products. Just do it wisely, you'll stay one of the wealthier nations for a much longer time. If you demonize your miners, energy producers and agricultural/timber people like we have in the US, you'll suffer the same fate we are, getting raped by the internationalists, who are only one generation long thinkers and short term profiteers who don't care, they have no social niceties to them.
You have to strike a balance between the extremes, and you have to also remember the first rule of wealth production, back to my first statement, it ALWAYS starts with either grown or mined/pumped out of the ground. Anything else is not wealth production, it's wealth re-arranging, or skimming, it's a net loss compared to creation, and vertical industries work the best for wealth creation-if you want any sort of technological based existence. In Canada in particular you are fabulously well off to keep doing that for hundreds of years, don't blow it is my best recommendation. The US is counting on just being big enough to keep intimidating other nations to do our wealth creation for us, so we can just skim, middleman, trade for stuff. The world doesn't need to do that anymore, there is little of anything the US produces that isn't cheaper anyplace else (some exceptions still but the trend is dropping), so the need to use petrodollars is dropping fast as well. They have obviously shifted to a looter/threat based economy now, basically what imperial rome had to do once they had foreigners doing all the work for them, they had nothing more to offer than taking by force. People here are dancing around it, but strip away wealth creation, lose
Why isn't the US government doing anything about all the cheap labour being dumped onto the market by the mid/far east?
Isn't that far more damaging to the economy?
The US is certainly very good at hypocrisy, I suppose that comes with diversity and arrogance ;)
Here is an excerpt :-
THE founding myth of the dominant nations is that they achieved their industrial and technological superiority through free trade. Nations that are poor today are told that if they want to follow our path to riches they must open their economies to foreign competition. They are being conned. Almost every rich nation has industrialised with the help of one of two mechanisms now prohibited by the rules of global trade. The first is "infant industry protection": defending new industries from foreign competition until they are big enough to compete on equal terms. The second is the theft of intellectual property. History suggests that technological development may be impossible without one or both.
It seems the US and Britain were quite ruthless in their "infant industry protection".
Shame the article is locked up in the closed New Scientist archive. Great resource, well worth the subscription cost.
Think about it. He said for years that there were no more WMD in Iraq. He also had 4 years to put them anywhere he wanted to. Anyway, since he did not use them in the war, even though he was backed into a corner, everyone's automatically going to think he didn't have them available.
He's counting on wearing down America like Vietnam. He's put a bounty of $350-$1500 for each American soldier killed by a loyalist. So just about everyday since the "official" end of hostilities, at least 1 American soldier has been killed by sniper, RPG, or ambush.
When the Americans leave, he can come back in from Syria or Jordan and set up shop again. He's counting on Americans to get tired of soldiers getting picked off, one at a time, every day. He's playing off the media, the EU, and skeptics of Bush to get his power back. Saddam is not an idiot. He's survived a lot longer than he should have, and there's good reasons for that.
Prof. David D. Friedman explains at some length in Chapter 19: The Political Marketplace of his book Price Theory: An Intermediate Text the harm that is done by tariffs. The problem is that the benefit is very concentrated, while the cost is spread throughout the rest of the economy. In this case, it is even tougher because Micron is making the argument that their request is in response to subsidies favoring their competitor. I'm sure that most Slashdot readers can follow Friedman's math if they have the patience for it. But for those who can't or don't, he makes his argument in words as well as equations.
While this tariff would benefit Micron, it would cost lots of other companies money. What I would prefer to see is for the US to push the threat of a tariff. Let South Korea take their case to the WTO. Send in a team of vicious attack lawyers who will readily agree that both the tariff and the South Korean subsidy are wrong. Let's see Micron and Hynix compete head-to-head without tariffs or subsidies.
Their subsidy is at least as harmful to their economy as a tariff would be to ours. Simply put, we have the option of avoiding the tariff by not buying the goods. The citizens of South Korea pay for the subsidy regardless of their own individual choices, and at least in the short run, regardless of whether the chips even get sold.
The net will not be what we demand, but what we make it. Build it well.
The way the United States have become in love with protectionlism is going to ruin them in the long run.
Cheap computer parts are more then just lining the pockets of outside producers, it also drives economic growth, education and research.
And it's not just computers that helps economies. Steel and lumber imports don't make it worse for the US as a whole. Sure some people lose their jobs but then again job security is so hard to find today. Why should University grads have to expect to work under contracts because of out sourcing to india when a bunch of lumber jacks can lobby for government protection of their industry?
In a way if you think about it protectionlism contributes to the inability of (because it's slashdot) tech workers to compete with cheap off shore out sourceing. Protectionlism contributes to a higher living cost as inefficent domestic industries drives prices up. Higher prices for goods means higher living cost. Which means workers requires higher wages.
Of course the whole situation is much more complicated then that. And job losted aren't good because real people are behind those jobs. But you know politicians always have a way of hiding the truth don't they? During electections they'll say how their government created so many jobs last year while when the other party was in power they lost so many jobs. I am pretty sure i never heard any of them been asked by a reporter where those jobs are and how much they paid.
Ah welll democratic leaders aren't really chosen just for their abilities. I tend to think of it as a oversized version of school yard politics. You just know the players even then then the people in the school yard that's all.
You're argument might hold up if we were comparing finding 15,000 gallons of Anthrax with finding 15,000 gallons of Saddam.
Actually, I wouldn't be suprised if wherever Saddam is hiding right now occupies at least 15,000 gallons worth of physical space. So his argument is pretty valid. I honestly believe that Iraq did have WMD. Why? We helped Saddam get them. You know, back in the days when he got they key to Detroit(I think).
Regardless of your stance on the war, it's silly to pretend that Iraq never had any WMD. They've used chemical weapons before, that's an undisputable fact.
I don't agree with the way the Bush administartion has handled things, but I don't really care if we find WMD. Do we really have to find a nuke for people to concede that he was actively trying to build them? Only then should we act, once he has nuclear capability? Or should we wait until he actually uses one? Or should we wait until he takes over a few neigboring countries?
Saddam being in power was bad. Do we really need to find WMD to prove that?
Life is too short to proofread.