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Game Makers Aren't Chasing Women
Thanks to Wired News for their article discussing what videogames women are playing, and whether the mainstream games industry is serving them well. According to the piece, "Observers say the industry isn't exactly rushing to make PC and console games that appeal to both men and women, let alone women alone. That's despite the massive success of games with crossover appeal, such as The Sims." However, a researcher on the subject suggests being too calculating doesn't work either: "Making games in which you get women to do 'women things' isn't a very successful strategy." So what does?
The game makers aren't chasing women. They're designing them instead.
Don't blame Durga. I voted for Centauri.
"McGroarty, these are terrible examples of girl games. You haven't a clue what women want to play."
And that's my second point: As a guy, I haven't a clue. If you want to see more girl games, get more women into making games.
My wife started playing those java games at the popcap site, and she loves them. Noticed they even started selling standalone versions of the games at compusa. Talking to a friend, and his girlfriend has been playing the games on there too.
While fun, they arnt FPS type games, more brain teasers of sorts. My wife told her friends at work, and all the women seem to like these games, they even play multiplayer version of them.
So ya, women seem to play different types of games.
I play CounterStrike, she plays Dynomite. (a bubble bobble clone) Thou we both like tetrinet, multiplayer tetris with powerups. Something about being evil with powerups makes it fun.
I don't think that the gaming industry really wants to make games for girls...yet.
"The Sims", as the article mentions, is higly popular with women -- more so than with men. But nobody in the industry really wants to quit working on Warcraft to make another game that is closer to real life.
Guys like fantasy games. Women tend to like more "realistic" games, despite the fact that really, they're fantasy as well.
There's still a huge market for fantasy games. Until developers need to market to women to survive, they probably will be very slow about it.
Most of the women I know are not interested in games period. They simply don't associate games with entertainment. If they do, they focus on puzzle type games (like Tetris) and strategy games (like Heroes of Might & Magic). After that, I think it is just marketing. If they are too lazy to think that far ahead, it is their own damn fault for missing the market.
"All I want is a warm bed and a kind word and unlimited power." - Ashleigh Brilliant
I know a few women who have played and enjoyed The Sims and SimCity on the PC. On the console side, the Final Fantasy and Diablo series...and more recently I've observed surpisingly that the Tekken series is popular with my lady friends.
My friend's 7 year old niece plays those Barbie PC games but she also plays some sports games geared for little kids (I don't recall the title).
How many female game designers are out there and what's the ratio in relation to male? The numbers are probably low. If you have have a sudden influx of female game designers, does that mean if you create more female-oriented games that they'll be played?
"...today consumers have been conditioned to think of beer when they see a bullfrog..."
So there aren't enough games with women in mind out there, but we shouldn't gear games toward women?
Besides, how do you "gear games toward women". You make a good game. Whoever likes it likes it. So are they saying that women don't like RPG, FPS, strategy or simulation games? Then what DO they like? Those are essentially all the games that exist and they seem to do okay for the rest of the world.
Women of the world, enlighten us with your bold new genre of videogames that we need to make especially for you? Seriously, I don't mean to be flip - what exactly DO you want?!?!
I just got this terrable urge to rate this insightful.
Mouse powered Chips, Open source Processors and Lego
and most of the other women I know - are simpler puzzle type games. My wife doesn't care about flashy immersive graphics or 5.1 digital surround, just something that challanges her - there's no money in these games. Most of them are already available for free at pogo.
I'm in my mid-twenties, and my girlfriend plays (some) video games, and that's fairly unusual.
My sister, who's 17, plays video games and that's true for at least half of her age group.
My 8-year-old female cousin loves video games, and doesn't have any problem with them at all. Just as video games grew into the mainstream for males, they are moving that way with females (although more slowly).
Playing video games doesn't have to be a "masculine" or "feminine" activity any more than watching a movie. There are plenty of games that can or could appeal to any gender.
That being said, I think video games lost a lot of girls when they started having more than one button. They lost even more when they went to 3D. When games got to the point that you had to read instructions or do tutorials, the gender gap emerged. The arcades also declined sharply at that point.
And Slashdotters DO? Won't pocket protectors and lack of coordination while high-fiving have to come into style before that happens? ;)
Quod scripsi, scripsi.
It's getting them to stop that's the problem.
[rimshot]
Overrated / Underrated : Moderation
Why would you want to be a woman in a game, when you can already be one in an AOL chat room?
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
For starters, how about removing all of the scantily clad, oversized breast equipped, fat lipped "hoes" from the majority of interactive entertainment.
This would effectively render games "mature" and "tasteful", (you are familiar with those words, yes?) and that would attract a wider audience of gamers right there.
As soon as you bring up "Barbie" games on the topic of "games geared towards women" you are already headed in the wrong direction. Try thinking of women as mature adults instead of a pink dress, shopping machine demographic an see what happens.
Recently, I bought her a dancepad because she doesn't much like game controllers. I can understand her point, I find them fiddly myself. She seems to like it and that makes me wonder whether the IO devices used by games are female-optimised. What is best for each s3x?
The dancepad may save me from having to assign her homework of one hour per day but really don't want to create that kind of resentment.
OK, you ready? really? you sure? OK, here goes...
(ahem)
Well, the developers of Duke Numem Forever are chasing women -- I can't imagine what else could have distracted them *this* long.
[applause sign]
Thank you, thank you... you've been a wonderful crowd... I'll be here all week....
"Lawyers are for sucks."
- Doug McKenzie
OK, not really, but we've had essentially this same story linked here repeatedly before. Check back in 10 years and it'll still be, "Game companies don't make games that appeal to women, the industry is stagnant, a handful of broadly popular games have been made so why aren't there more of them?" and Brenda Laurel yapping about how she's so much smarter than everyone else, despite her complete failure to actually sell games herself.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
It's like the myth that says women only want romance and girls only play with dolls.
The facts are really simple: women share most of the same neurology and physiology as men. They can enjoy games - voluntary challenges full of interesting choices - just as men can. However, they also hate the same things - they hate feeling like a failure, feeling stupid or embarrassed.
Most games today are designed for male neurology and skill level; that is, high degree of spatial and hand-to-eye coordination, navigational skills, and logical puzzles. The core gameplay is right, but the reward/punishment mechanisms are not accounting for the gender difference.
If you look at Bejeweled, it's easy to see why the logical yet forgiving gameplay appeals equally to both genders. It's built around reward, not punishment. Even if you didn't know what to do at all, you get rewards just by clicking around on the screen. You will never be embarrassed or humiliated by the game regardless of what degree of skills you have. And on the second go, you will probably better your score.
Another great example is the city building series by Sierra, which allows you to choose between the path of the warrior or the path of the builder. Almost always, you can pay off your enemies by running a successful economy instead of fighting the war.
This pattern of non-punitive, positively rewarding gameplay is core to almost all titles that have enjoyed high degree of success with women.
Making games for women is not rocket science. :-)
Jouni
Jouni Mannonen | Game Designer, Consultant
Women seem to enjoy relationship building activities. My spouse and about 500 books in the local Chapters seem to point to this. So, I can see "Sims" as being popular, and maybe some RPG -- as long as there is relational /point/ to the RPG.
/don't get the point/. "Grand Theft Auto" seems to deliberately go "anti-relationship". James Bond game that my nephews have kept insisting that I come out shooting -- or I die.
/could/ enjoy an immersive simulation. But I don't get a world where I have to pump my testosterone to 11 before even beginning. Give me another choice (negotiate, be subversive, etc.) to allow me to continue.
I don't like most of the games out there, because I
And this is not amusing to me. I enjoy a story arc, I
So the audience is overcharged young men with something to prove. I find it a laugh, because getting very VERY good at video games is not going to impress the girls. Which was the point of the testosterone boost in the first place. Irony.
Ratboy.
Just another "Cubible(sic) Joe" 2 17 3061
I imagine game makers and the average slashdotter are in the same boat when it comes to chasing women. After the initial court order, one just can not risk the prison sentence..
Another observation is that a lot of the women I know, including my wife, really enjoy two player fighters. My wife loves Soul Calibur and is chomping at the bit to play the new one at home (gotta go with the GC version - Link is gonna rock!). She also really enjoys the Street Fighter-derived games (not so much SNK's fighters). DOA is one of the few that I've found that my wife and her friends aren't all that interested in (no, I don't think it's the "bump-mapping"). Perhaps there is something about the competition in those games that the manufacturers need to explore.
I honestly believe that many women are interested in gaming, but there are both social barriers and gender barriers that block them for some reason or another. There's definitely money to be made there...good luck to whomever decides to attack it.
Oh, wait, since this is /.: one thing i know, MS sure as hell won't figure it out. But they may buy the folks that do. ;)
You are addressing women as though you believe they will be reading this.
All this concern about a lack of female-friendly games is really a non-issue. If there is money to be made on it, eventually someone will do it.
Furthermore, it's more likely easier said than done. War games, for instance, are much easier to conceptualize than a game like The Sims. (This is why I still admire Will Wright, despite EA's expansion-pack-a-thon.)
Sure, you can say "make a game about dating and finding the right guy". But, well, how? Where is the game? What exactly do you control? How should the AI engine work? Et cetera, et cetera. (And yes, I know dating games are big in Japan, but they're largely unrealistic and are mostly composed of multiple-choice quizzes.)
[PowerPoint] is a tool for capitalist presentation
Europeans have had violence selectively bred out of them for centuries, through emigration, genocide and mass starvation. Violence, self defense and gun ownership are all negative traits according to the Hague based New World Order, and Europe is the beta test in reducing humans to sheeple.
The initial secular humanist cabal was satisfied using the colonies as a safety valve to eliminate violence prone individuals, figuring that the natives in the colonies (Zulus, Iroquios, Bantu, Thugges, Pollywogs and Slantees) would kill most of them, and leave the more harmless ones in Europe. Not believing in God, they didn't take God into account, who so generously provided a fecund new Jerusalem in America, where right thinking God Fearing men could subdue and populate a whole continent, Kentucky long rifle in one hand, Bible in the other.
Once the colonies were full or free, the ruling cabal had to find another way to get rid of the free thinking men who worshipped God and not man. It's not a coincidence that the most fervent Christians in the British Empire suffered a British genrerated Potato Famine in the 1870's.
Finally, the humanists attempted genocide to purge Europe of men who would defend their rights with their lives. The Jews were the first to be targetted, one only needs a cursory glance at the history of Isreal to realize what a fierce opponent to soul degrading secular humanism the Jewish race would be.
Which pretty much brings us to today. The New World Order, based in the HAgue, is slowly grinding down Europeans into sub-humans, preventing them from fully achieving their full human potential, including the ability to fight for what you believe in. Teletubbies and happy, passive, non-violent vide games are part of the insidious conspiracy. Fortunately, there are enough God Fearing, right thinking men who will fight for the right for men to worship God instead of nebulous concepts like Gaia, ecology, feminism, astronomy and humanism in America, Israel and Saudi Arabia. For those of us blessed enough to live in one of God's chosen places, all we can do is pray for the poor souls being tortured in the soul crashing socialist hellhole that is Europe, and perhaps ship them a few handguns enclosed in the cases of Budweiser that we ship overseas to sate the European hunger for fine, beechwood aged corn beer.
Nagging: Get your boyfriend/husband to the ballet
Cosmetic Commuting: Put makeup on while you drive
Divorce: You get half of everything
Cingular SUV: Talk on your cell phone while driving... Try not to take out the school children
Breaking the glass ceiling: Sleep your way to the top of a fortune 500 company
Begging for a Benz: You are a 16 year old girl and you need daddy to buy you a benz
Starve Yourself: The anorexia game
If you take this seriously, you need to chill out... I AM JOKING
Johnkoerner.com
I don't think that there's a "type" of game that appeals to women more or less than others. Different women like different games, but what makes women different to men is that men (or a large part of the male market) are prepared to invest a fair amount of time on "learning" a game before they expect to have fun. Women are not.
My girlfriend and I played though the co-op half-life addon (Decay) on the PS/2, and we both enjoyed it alot. We got to the end of Decay so I bought an XBox and slapped in Halo. We started it up in co-op but, she went into the kitchen to call her friends after 5 minutes. I've tried many other co-op games, all with the same result. But she sometimes turns on Half-life *by herself*.
What makes Half-life different is that she has seen me playing Half-life (and all the addons) on the PC for several years. She's even had a half-hearted go herself every once or twice. By osmoses she had done all the learning before we even bought a PS/2. When we finally sat down to play together, she already knew what to shoot at and which guns were good etc. so she was spared the chore of figuring it out.
Women (in the general case) seem to like games that require no learning at all. In fact, any kind of preparation seems to be a big no-no. Free web games, solitaire etc. are easy to get to and quick to learn (often the rules are learnt from a real-world version of the game). Installing, configuring etc. are all big turn off's for women, as well as purchasing a specific piece of hardware (e.g. consoles), for women I think that convenience is king.
More men play games for entertainment. ;) ).
More women chat for entertainment (btw men tend to prefer a good argument and women prefer a good chat
Sure that's a sweeping generalization and there are plenty of exceptions.
Also compare publications/magazines for women and those for men.
" Europeans have had violence selectively bred out of them for centuries, through emigration, genocide and mass starvation"
The Europeans are as violent as any. Centuries? Germany's last big orgy of violence was not THAT long ago.
In more recent history, don't forget Serbia, Georgia (oops, I get you forgot it is European), and the Irish imperialists who have wanted to take over part of the United Kingdom against the wishes of its natives (bomb bomb bomb).
They should really focus on making games that girls are *good* at. If they're good at it and enjoy it in real life, maybe they would like it in game form, too.
I'm thinking... something along the lines of PVP games like mud wrestling. With jello wrestling and creamed corn wrestling levels, too. And there could be olympic-type games like baby-tossing and endurance based oral games.
And maybe, along the lines of that old Tapper beer game, they could have a cooking and cleaning game... Maybe where the goal is to make and serve the most turkey dinners as fast as possible.
Then you could have the "artificial insemination" game... I picture it to be a bit like bubble-bobble...
I always find women playing those games from addtictinggames.com, and what this says to me is, they like a quick, fun, possibly addicting game every now and then.
Gentlemen, I believe these women need to play Wario Ware.
Just accept the fact that the large majority of women don't like playing role-playing games, real-time strategy games or the like. Once you have been married as long as I have you start to pick up on things that the female gender does like. They love puzzle and adventure games. They love social interaction. They want games that they can quickly learn the rules (under five minutes) and stop when they want. Women tend to get frustrated more easily than their male counterparts when the game scales to quickly in difficulty. Women tend to go for realistic displays of real-life rather than the male-accepted fantasy/reality bending versions.
Face it. Women and men are just different. Having your game being played by equal numbers of both genders is the exception (a blessed one at that) and not the rule. Games that pull this off have a lot of elements I listed above as part of the game; but it doesn't work in every case. Rather than design a game that tries to please everyone, just target one audience and make the best darn game you can.
Once the cross-stiching and quilt-making industries make concerted efforts to lure males to pick up their hobby, maybe you can change my mind.
From my experience most women hate pc's because their boyfriends, husbands, and such spend more time with the pc than with them. I've had a couple girlfriends that dispise my pc's and one girlfriends said she was jealous of my pc.
I don't think a woman gets the same use out of a pc like a guy does. Most women don't grow up playing video games like guys do so what's going to change that later in life? There are more women playing these days but the majority of what I've seen don't have a choice because they can't get a boyfriend or are some what anti-social. I'm not stereo-typing here. It's just my experience which I'm sure is different than others.
You aren't free to do anything, until you've lost everything.
During this period, the Muslim empires, Aztecs, and Russians were at least as bloodthirsty as the UKers.
Oops. almost forgot Spain......
I think its a bit of a misconception that girls are somehow not interested in games. I think the 'core games, maybe, but as long as games are not designed purely for guys....
I'm going off the fact that my girlfriend and her 60+ yr. old mother like a bunch of my games. She loves the Zelda's and Soul Calibur (we're both just *waiting* for that August release date on SCII) and both she and I are having fun trying to get the high score on Ikaruga. This isn't counting countless hours of Gran Turismo and a bunch of other games on her PS2. Her mother, who's definitely in no way a techie, hanging around in Phenedra Drifts in Metroid Prime on the GameCube my g/f bought her and seems to be enjoying it.
But, my girlfriend definitely isn't interested in playing my copy of GTA3 or Splinter Cell, both of which seem to be deliberately tilted to guys.
I guess the point is, I think people who say "Why aren't we making games for girls?" are missing the point. Girls, at least the ones I know, aren't necessarily into pink bows and puppy dogs or Mary Kate and Ashley Play Dress Up. Just solid gameplay that isn't accompanied by ridiculous polygonal breasts.
At least for my wife..
Sure, she plays the ones they mention..The Sims, Roller Coaster Tycoon, (She likes anything sandboxy and expandable really). As well, we both like the Pop-cap style of small games, (who doesn't)
However the tastes go beyond that..
Everything from Baldur's Gate:Dark Alliance and Legend of Mana to Final Fantasy IX and Might and Magic VI and VII. (She is obessed with those games. One challenge she made is to beat a temple full of Lich's at as low of a level as possible. Her lowest is 6!)
Doom and Blood (Her personal fav) to Jedi Knight II. Diablo II for a while as well.
Burnout, Sonic Advendture II Battle.
All of the Mario games for the most part. Perfect Dark/007. Even Ikaragua for crying out loud.
Among many others. (The one thing we agree with is a dislike for the "classics". Outside Bubble Bobble, there is not many old games we really enjoy)
What is the point?
Women gamers are no different than men gamers. Each have their own tastes, likes and dislikes. Trying to lump them in a completely seperate catagory..to be honest is sexist and counter-productive. Make good games and women will play them, if they want to.
Is "Mary Kate and Ashley" two girls, or three girls? Wait, do not answer that: it is more than I want to know. Sometimes, ignorance is the better state.
I know plenty of girls who play distinctively non-girl games. I also think for any adult females there are plenty of options. There are completely non-gender specific genres such as puzzle games. Also lets look at all the girls staring in typical guy games, for the females who feel they aren't represented. Lara Croft of course, Joanna Dark or whatever her name is, The resident evil (which is survival horror, not something you'd think of as girl oriented) almost always has a female character. Many games have female characters because males like to play female characters, I can only imagine some females want to play male characters once in a while. The point is every genre has girls in it, and you would be hard placed to create female specific games that aren't for young girls like 12 and younger. Who keeps assuming the kind of girls who would play games in the first place need something different?
M.D. Inc.
school girl bitching each others and compete for some football jock, hormonal bonus reach lv 10 (puberty), fake boobs artifact... whatever
. html">Olsen twins</a>?
and what about all games based on <a href="http://pocket.ign.com/articles/355/355557p1
or why not game based on soap or girly sitcom
next on slashdot:
"Gilmore's Girl, just gone gold, reviewed by AnonymousChick"
Not sure if that qualifies but the virtual world "There" is entirely tailored to attract women.
A few things they do off the top of my head:
- no killing, no blood. ever.
- lots of overly cute things (pets, environment)
- shopping. lots of shopping.
- lots of pretty clothes.
- very easy to find people to chat with
It's clearly not as "goal-driven" as most traditional games, and that might also be part of its women appeal.
I think we're spending too much time talking about what games girls like rather than addressing the issue of whether or not girls do play games in general.
My wife had never played a single computer game before we were married. She showed no desire after we were married until she saw me playing several games. Then she started playing games like Zeus or Majesty (puzzle/strategy games). She liked boggle and bejeweled as well.
Then... she saw me play some real games. She's not great, really, but has learned to love to play UT, Q3, Tony Hawk, Aggressive Inline, Mario, Twisted Metal:Black, GTA3, SSX, etc. She wasn't brought up having the expectation that she would like games so she didn't... and then, only liked girl-type games at first.
I notice the same thing with my daughters. I play games... their mom plays games... naturally, they want to play games. They love mario cart, mario party, a whole slew of barbie crud, SSX, and Tony Hawk PS3 (we turn off some songs though). Other than the barbie games... these are typically boy-liked games as well.
Sure, girls will be attracted to games with more puzzle or realistic situations as people have pointed out already in this thread... but more time should be spent by developers trying to turn girls on to gaming... not creating games they think girls will like.
Certainly every man at his best state is but vapor
I want my daughter to play more because I wish to encourage neural development (although it may be a bit late) and help her to be less technophobic. I've been programming computers since 1968 and since I saw the first interactive systems in 1973, I've known that games are among the most important executables on the system.
For example one of the debatable reasons (among many) that video games tend to be designed for boys is that its easier to design a game that boys like than games that appeal to girls. That is, some of the games that girls would like to play are hard to build; it's easier to make a spaceship shoot at the invading alien hoard than it is to make Barbie navigate cliques in high-school.
Also, there are games emerging that currently appeal to many women and indicate a trend in technology and online entertainment. Check out:
http://secondlife.com -- creative playground
http://there.com -- 3D chat with dune-buggies
Religion is poison to rationality, and we lose sight of that at our own peril. -- Lurker2288
Given that most game makers are male, geeks, and therefore probably can't get dates more than twice a year, could we think of a demographic that is less likely to have insight into what women want to do in their spare time? Go figure.
Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
My fiance is addicted to GTA: VC, far moreso than I. I have a close female friend who is similarly addicted to the Sims and routinely likes to show off at DDR type games. My little sister loves Sim City and Civilisation II. So, women do play games, it's just catering to their tastes that is the issue. Is it not that the media that would introduce them to games and help them make informed choices is male orientated and dominated?
about this subject.
Singularity: a belief in the "God" idea with the "demiurge" relation inverted.
Given my lack of insight into the general opinion of women on just about anything, I want to avoid making statements about what I think most girls want to see in video games. I'll just speak from what I have seen in my own experience. When I was younger the girls I grew up around seemed to like playing games like Super Mario Brothers, and some of the earlier Nintendo titles, though they still didn't like to play them as much as most of the guys I knew. As video games progressed, I think somewhere around the time of the Genesis, Playstation, and the Nintendo 64 I noticed a sharp decline in interest among the girls I knew. Now, however, I'm beginning to see even more interest among the girls I know than ever before. Just last weekend I played a 8 person round of Halo, and two of the players were female. I also know a few girls who seem to enjoy Diablo 2 very much. So although I think the popularity of video games among females in the past has been rather low, I would dare say that the popularity among women is growing everyday. I agree with some of the previous postings also in that, if we want to see more female game players, we need to see more female game designers.
A few things I'd be curious to know is how a girl's attitude towards video games is affected based on how her boyfriend (past or present) treats his video game playing compared to how he treats her. I think it's fairly obvious that different (possibly on a more personal level) things discourage a girl from playing video games than those that would discourage a guy from playing it. Again, I don't want to get too far into making broad statements like that.
Anyway, I think the question itself is very interesting and would love to see some female slashers post their opinions.
Bite the hand.
Well, other than the obvious - that women aren't particularly attracted to games geared specifically at men, especially when those games trivialize/sexualize women - there isn't much to go on here. The old gender debates have shown that men don't know what women want, *women* don't know what other women want, and individual women don't know what they individually want.
The truism buried in here about what women want in a game is "I don't know, but I know it when I see it". In other words, the solution to this imagined game-targeting problem is the hard answer that marketing types don't like: ignore gender focusing entirely and just focus on making good games. From the article, it seems only minimal attention to gender is needed - make a good game, and make plenty of avatars available for both genders, and the rest takes care of itself.
I guess the usual corporate types in charge of big budget games don't like this answer, because it forces them to go back to the basic question of "what makes a good game?", and that's a really hard question with no easy answers. The answers to that don't fit as bullet-points in a presentation or items on a checklist for success. There's no solid formula here, it's still very much a "1) work on game 2) ??? 3) Profit!" thing as far as they're concerned. It's less risky for them to fall back on just targeting men, so that's what they've done for the past few years, and games that women love too have been happy accidents. Hence, now that they want to make more money by duplicating those successes, they're asking all these questions about "how do we target women?" - IMHO, not the right approach at all.
I'm amazed that in all these posts, all of the "what girls play" descriptions have been written by their husbands or boyfriends. So... here is what a real girl gamer (age 24) plays, in her own words!
I prefer games that are open-ended, and allow me to explore worlds and develop/create things. I love RPGs and MMORPGs. I like games with a dark or gothic edge - like Anarchy Online, or Primal (PS2). Occasionally, I like to play games that are short and arcade-like (PopCap games, racing games). I also like first-person shooters; I play Unreal Tournament a lot, especially when I'm feeling stressed. For some reason, I always loved the Area-51 arcade game with the gun controllers you'd use to shoot the zombies and aliens. As a little girl, I grew up playing Sierra's Quest games, Lemmings, Test Drive, Super Mario Brothers, and Zelda. I own a PS2, a mod-chipped PS1, a much-loved SNES, an old-style gameboy, dance pads for ddr, and a well-equipped PC. I'm the only girl I know who has more games and game systems than her boyfriend.
I believe that games that would appeal the most to girls are RPG style games that allow us to explore or create worlds, and to develop our characters. This would include things like "the Sims", as well as MMORPGS like SWG (which I love for it's avatar-design system - it rocks!). Games with an aspect of cuteness - like the ability to get cute fuzzy pets that eat people in MMORPGs or RPGs like Secret of Mana - are a plus for us girls! Pretty graphics are also a plus -- I love the butterflies and flowers and beautiful landscapes of AC2 and SWG.
Game Makers Aren't Chasing Women
...and in other news, game *players* aren't chasing women either... unless beach volleyball counts... mmm...
ID-10-T is a way of life
-ash
"Mass genocide is the most exhausting activity one can engage in, next to soccer."
All right.
Crap like this really pisses me off.
Begin rant.
Your first mistake is labeling games for girls as "pink" games. What the hell is that? Is Barbie all anyone can think of for girls? By making a label such as that you are limiting what gaming can be for any sex. Just like not all video games are for little boys, not all video games should be for little girls. Idiots here on Slashdot are making references to playing with dolls and things along that nature. What about grown up WOMEN? After dealing with people like some of the malefolk here on Slashdot some of us would like to kick some ass. The most useful posts here were from the married guys. Make a good game and we play it. If there is a difference between male and female gamers it is the female lack of tolerance for crap. And there is a lot of it.
Make a good game and we will play it.
End rant.
-- No Comment
I've read a lot of papers on women and gaming. Whenever I see something about women and gaming, I read it, whether it's about game design, psychology, or socialization. I'm also a woman.
My overall conclusion I've come to is that women like games that are good. The best way to design a game for women is to try and design a game that is good.
Not an incredibly precise conclusion, yes, but still a useful one. When you try and design a game for a market, you tend to exclude other markets. If you try to design a game for women you'll most likely exclude men, and there's no guarantee women will even like your game. Not a great formula.
On the other hand if you try and design a game that offers high quality interesting game play, chances are both male and female gamers will find it enjoyable.
This isn't to say that there aren't good games out there which none the less tend to appeal less to women. Most of these games I would say turned out that way, because they were designed for men. If you are constantly imagining as you make your game, a target audience of boys aged 16-26, there is a higher chance your finished product will not be as interesting to women.
So, the corollary to how to design a good game for women, is to not try and design a good game for men.
Simple, yet shockingly effective, and removes much of the need for debate over what women like.
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I support spreading santorum
In SOVIET RUSSIA Women chase Game Makers!
I assert that my comment is only my opinion, not that of any employer, past, present or future.
That game developers are mostly clueless about women. This is probably because they are primarily guys, and most them there don't get too much contact with women. Yeah, they may date, and even some are married, but they still have not had the time to actually make some observations of the nature of the woman.
The stereotypes are bullshit, for the most part. Women are going to think that games like "Barbie style magnet" and "Dofoo's tea party" are going to be degrading. Women aren't all about pink.
The games that appeal to the majority of women will involve the nuturing of characters, repetitive tasks, and a strong sentimental feel. I've lived my whole life around women, and if there is one thing that I've noticed about them is that they like to care for things. They like to plant things, encourage growth in things, and basically do all of those motherly type things. Then comes the knack that women have to endure the most boring things on earth, seemingly making it look enjoyable.
Look at the jobs that women have in factories, they are going to be the kind that either involve:
- Managing a group
- Fine motor skills.
- Lots of repetitive tasks.
If you can make a game that involves all of these things, you will have made a game that women enjoy.This is why you find a huge number of women playing games like "The Sims," where all of the daily tasks become repetitive, and the player is allowed near complete control over the character. "The Sims" appeals to the core feminine side without making it distasteful or insulting. It is quite the game for the ladies.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Just stop being a pig all the time and then maybe women might not be offended by your products. For example, whenever you think that gratuitous sexuality would be a "plus" check yourself by thinking about what women might think of your advertising or product content. Example: whoever thought it would be a great idea to have realistic bouncy physics and ridiculous cleavage for the lady at the inn in Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance should have their head examined.
Mostly, they like games they can pick up and put down easily (Tetris, Solitaire, DDR), aren't ridiculously competitive, and they don't want to spend (read: "waste") time learning all the details necessary to play games like Starcraft where you need to understand the system to play effectively.
This goes a long way to explaining why your girlfriend will play DDR, but hates it when you try to teach her Warcraft III. From their perspective, DDR is a short, fun, self-contained activity, whereas Warcraft III is just a waste of time. "Why would you want to spend all that time filling up your brain with this useless stuff?"
If you keep those two things in mind, your game will appeal to a lot more women. Colouring it pink will not.
why are you having sex with kittens?
My wife is an active wargamer, but she will only occasionally dabble in RPG's and video games; she doesn't feel exactly comfortable or pleased with games that depict women as physics-defying super-bimbos whose sole role is to be sex objects who prop up the heroes by standing under each arm. (Her words, exactly, when the article was mentioned)
Frankly, game marketing is so heavily oriented towards a sex-sells angle in the market right now, both for tabletop gaming and computer gaming, that she usually tosses a title aside in disgust after just looking at the box copy. Even many of the MMORPGs out there get snorts of disgust from her, often deservedly. An example: Anyone remember the bondage-girl-elf on the cover of Everquest: Ruins of Kunark, tied up by the mean old Lizardman?
Yeah, that really convinced my wife that women weren't sex objects in EQ; currently, she has been playing Shadowbane, which has done a fairly decent job of not being too ludicrous with the female models, and has kept the tasteless art to a minimum.
Weapons of Mass Analysis
The problem isn't the lack of female developers.
Most of my female friends that like games, like the same sort of games that most guys would like, FPS, adventure, RPG, even fighting games (the only genre that seems to not be popular is sports games) Girls don't play games for a number of reasons:
1) Games are not marketed at them, this includes advertising and the whole T&A approach that some developers like Acclaim are overly fond of.
2) Gaming is far more mainstream now than it ever has been, but it is still considered more of a "kids" thing. You don't think so, you think you are what the marketing department at Sega or Sony has decided is the typical gamer but you are not. Look at some of the ads, or some of the portrayal of gamers as geeks, clearly the picture of the community has some catching up to do with the mirror.
3) Like so many other activities that are not traditionally feminine, peers and whatnot exclude women from gaming. I am not saying that the girl police patrol the streets and beat sense back into those that stray over the blue line into "boy hobbies" it does mean that growing up, girls have less exposure to gaming than boys. This in turn leads to less interest in games and less purchasing.
So in answer to your "I don't know what kinds of games girls want to play" question, the answer is, the same kind as you do.
The girls at my high school play calculator games nearly as much as the boys. This is because the calculator games are easy to get and easy to play: many of them use only the arrow keys and the 2ND button. They're simple and cute.
Now I'm not trying to say that girls are incapable of playing complex games--I know a few that play SC and WC way better than I do--but with calculator games, the attraction for girls is their user-friendly nature.
Sick of people knocking on Gentoo's greatness in completely unrelated
I don't think I'm a good example of the majority of 'girl gamers'. I love a good round of Quake3/UT2k3, I've clocked Warcraft 3 several times and do not suck on battle.net, and own all three of the major console. And I mean own, not "my fiance bought it and I just happen to play it." (Only just got around to buying Halo yesterday. My bad. It is soooooooooo good.)
But, I can say what pisses me off, as a woman, in a game.
The busty heroines I'm fine with; it's nice to see women with curves, as they usually are, than skinny rakes. It's just what they're dressed in most of the time that I really have issues with. I mean, hello, cleavage is all very well but a bare chest ain't much protection against a sword.
Not to mention sex-object women thrown in for the sake of being sex-objects. It's silly, and I don't think most men are that easily drawn. ("oooh! Boobies!")
What I've noticed in my work (I sell video games. All video games.) is that the women who are casual gamers tend to gravitate towards puzzle games, yes, but also platformers.
The thing about most platformers, Spyro, Mario, Rayman, is that they're not geared towards a gender, they're geared towards an age group.
The fact that they're largely games with a younger audience appeal means the controls are not difficult to master, there's less of the glorious gory gibbing going on, and there is nothing there to alienate anyone of a specific gender.
That's all that really needs to be done. Don't make games -for- women, (being a woman, I have no idea what a woman's game would be, but it sounds scary), just don't make them specifically for men. Probably toned down violence would appeal to a lot of women, but I happen to like the red mist. ; )
And for that matter, make high quality games! That way, anyone will like it.
(Argh! The time! Must catch bus!)
[insert witty quote here]
Am I the only one here who sees the irony inherant in a mostly male group discussing what it would take to get women interested in something? I mean, we could actually ask them, you know. Just for kicks. It works great with my wife:
Me: Hey honey, how about a game tonight?
Her: Sure! How about Rise of Nations?
See? Easy.
Behold the Power of Cheese!
Considering the way I (as a heterosexual guy) am not all that fond of games "geared towards me" (BMX XXX, anyone), do women really want a game that is "geared" towards them?
"Gearing" is just a prettier word for pandering. And most people (at least most adult people), regardless of sex, just aren't keen on being pandered to.
From the research I have done on the effects of videogames, it's all a matter of social perception. Women are just not motivated, a priori by their social environment, to play games. However, a study made to test whether or not girls are good game players proved that they are as good as boys, as long as they don't perceive the software as being a game! (see bibliography in link for more details).
The ENIAC Demo Competition
American McGees Alice?
That was good,
it seems the fan sights around,
and the message bordes seem to be
fairly well split male female..
it had its problems, but it appealed
to both sexs..
I though that Alice as a strong yet
disturbed person was verry well portrade,
and not as some week little child.
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Jouni's comment struck a very responsive chord - and I'm male. I've been put off a few games because mistakes were too fatal too quickly and I abandoned them too early in the learning process. Specific (if old) example: as a former D&D player who remembered the original Zork on ITS, I bought Return to Zork with great expectations. After dying a dozen times before even getting to the first bridge, I got ticked off and gave it away.
o n.shtml (The Games Journal article) for some comments on "competition" as opposed to "mutual aggression". Having had a little more experience, when I pick boardgames as gifts for younger relatives/friends'kids, I now choose games where the players cannot directly attack each other. They can place obstacles that make each other's lives difficult, and their positions may cause interaction in positive and/or negative ways, but they don't directly attack. I find these get played more and cause fewer arguments. Only once *all* the kids in the family are teenagers do I switch to more direct-combat games (Magic, etc.)
A similar idea has been raised in the boardgame community. Take a look at http://www.thegamesjournal.com/articles/Competiti
i went to the vans warped tour to see a couple of my favorite punk bands (tho not my sole musical taste, just a enjoyable little spur off my usual likes) and it was real work to avert the eyes from all the kiddies. there were little kids showing off stuff that little kids shouldnt even have... it was aweful. there were, of course, a few older gals there that were hot, but much to my dismay it wasnt enough to make up for all the li'l 'uns.
/end old fart rant (and im only 23...)
i sell illegal drugs
As a man with a girl friend (I know its odd for slash dot) I can say that I really hope the industry starts producing more games for women. I love to play games and I spend at least 50% of my free time doing it, but the girl friend gets pissed because she doesnt like games and feels im ignoring her. However, if she liked games it would be something we could do together. This would make my life unbelivably easier, as im sure it would most male gamers. So please please please start getting women to like games if only for my own sanity!!!!
There's a lot of talk about complexity flying around in this discussion, but I don't think that's what the girl-gamer problem is. A lot of games, especially FPS games, are genuinely difficult if you aren't used to that style of movement. A friend of mine tried to get me to play Halo recently, but there are 8 buttons, and three joysticks. I eventually got the hang of moving with that, but before I did, he had been killing me for half an hour. It wasn't much fun, and I'm not inclined to try it again. There are women (like me) who don't enjoy feeling stupid when playing games. Boys, though, grow up playing this type of game, and so they start off with some competency. Maybe women who haven't been playing games for 16+ years like games where they can be competent within a few sessions. If you look at The Sims, online games, adventure games, and others that are popular with large percentages of fem-gamers, they all have intuitive controls that can be mastered quickly. Not only do these appeal to women, but also lots of men who aree new to gaming. To get more women, don't make women's games, make games that newbies can play! Side note: Am I the only one who wants to fly into a homicidal rage every time I hear "Barbie" mentioned in connection to women gamers? And they say women aren't violent.