Slashdot Mirror
India Plans Moon Mission by 2008
LPetrazickis writes "According to the Tribune, Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee has announced today that India will send a spacecraft to the moon by 2008. The Chandrayaan-I mission will showcase Indian achievements in science and technology to the world. Both European and Canadian Space Agencies have shown interest in the mission. SifyNews reports that 2008 was initially mispronounced as 1908. Today is the 56th anniversary of India's independence." Previous talk about this has come from the Indian space agency; this announcement from the Prime Minister seems to have more weight.
Considering the amount of poverty in India I think they should put less money into space research and more into feeding their people.
Perhaps their first goal should be to get a man or woman in space... when they do that I'll start listening to their outer claims.
2008 is only 4.5 years from now, so it sure sounds like a tall order.
Get a man into space, then maybe I'll pay attention.
"Entropy is the bad-guy, and he is everywhere"
Imagine your tech support calls being rerouted to the moon.
I guess this is better than spending all that energy working on better nukes.
Oh wait. Now they are building long range rocket technology... Crap maybe this isn't better than just working on nukes.
A similar argument could've been made against the USA back when the USA dit it, but I'm strongly against that view and wish not to troll about either side.
Support Israeli punk bands. Man Alive.
Oh, no! They're going to take away even more American jobs! Think of all the rocket scientists! Programmers first...now this?
Oh, wait, that's right. Engineers can't even find jobs here. Time to move to India.
I wish them the best of luck, but from what I read in the article they just recently launched their first satellite. Seems very ambitous to think in 5 years they can get a man on the moon safely from this level of technology. The chinese are still having issues and imho they're far more advanced than india in terms of a space program. All in all, we can always use more countries giving the USA the proper boot in the ass to start a mars program. Our huge claim to fame has been that we were the only nation ever to get on the moon, when a moon landing is so common that eventually you're hearing about ethiopias moon landing, it devalues the achievement. We need to get to mars, and ensure that new plateu for the rest of the world to achieve.
It is good that India and China are competing through science, and not through arms. Honestly, I don't see how this could be a bad thing for anyone. India and China will both make new scientific discoveries, and seeing them get into space may inspire the EU, the US and Russia to increase their space efforts.
I know lots of people are going to complain that India should be focusing their efforts on improving their living standards rather than going on wild adventures. But I don't think the one has to distract from the other. India actually has enough food to feed herself, its just a problem of social structure and education. And it is not as if the resources used for going into space make that great of a impact on the ability of India to educate its population. In economic terms, there isn't that great of a cost of space missions, because the resources that go into them can't really easily go anywhere else.
Please read the article. The plans call for a robotic probe to the moon.;)
Is this a sigs-optional kind of place? 'Cause I am totally down with that if you know what I mean.
Why? Because rocket programs are dual purpose. They can be used to deliver civilians and satellites into orbit, or they can be used to deliver to deliver nuclear warhead payloads.
And India is now a nuclear power.
In other words, India will end up with nuclear ICBMs.
Now, I don't have anything particular about India - I'd say this about any country. More countries having nuclear ICBM capability is simply not a recipe for world peace.
"It is our blasphemy which has made us great, and will sustain us, and which the gods secretly admire in us." - Zelazny
Great, other's have matched our achievements from 1969. Good for them. Wasting money for a manned mission to mars doesn't give us the return on investments that we really should have with government spending. I'd put that money into venture funding for new technology so that we can create jobs that support themselves in internation industry.
20,000 government workers trying to get four Americans on Mars is just a waste.
We were on the moon in the 1960s. In 2003 India should have no problem doing what we did all those years ago, their economy is plenty fast considering they have all the worlds tech jobs.
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Wouldn't it be better to have a multi-national space station or deep space exploration? If every nation spends the money just to get a ship into space, and see what we already know, then what did we get out of it? I think it would be more productive to pool the resources of many nations and build something that one nation alone could not.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
The people who live in India care.
Rosco: "If brains were gunpowder, Enos couldn't blow his nose."
Starlight glittered from the chrome horns as the pressurized bovine arced up and out of Earth's gravity well.
Captain Raj blniked away a tear as he watched the earth diminish in size from his viewing station within the left eyeball of the craft.
The udders steadily increasing delta V that eventually carried the metal cow and the Indians up and over the moon and then back to earth descending gently into a McDonalds parking lot.
If you havent noticed, the US economy is slowed down, the Japanese economy is slowed down, so the worlds biggest economies are slow as hell.
Why would you want to waste money on something like the space program for bragging rights when we can cut taxes and create jobs?
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I wish India the best of luck in reaching the moon with an unmanned vehicle in 2008. Very ambitious.
With more countries demonstrating prowess in space technology, perhaps it will finally motivate the U.S. to get off our asses, reinvigorate our space ambitions and do something more meaningful than driving a bus three times a year into low Earth orbit to a bloated and finicky station that doesn't seem to be doing much more than Skylab did 30 years ago.
I must be in a grumpy mood...
Why do you ask silly questions like this?
First culture is a factor, second race is a factor, theres lots of differences between the countries of europe and the countries of Asia.
Going to space is not profitable, and look at Africa if you want to see how well different cultures and races get along in this country, they still are having wars, and apartied(legal slavery and segregation) lasted all the way till the 1990s!
If you use Linux, please help development of Autopac
Americans never landed on the moon. Don't be silly.
They can just take one of those nuclear weapons from their ongoing cold war with Pakistan, strap it onto a chimp's back and let 'er fly!
Now, I'm not a rocket scientist, but that sounds pretty feasible.
May I nominate the SCO board of directors as potential astronauts?
Maybe we will respect the middle east now that they have the same abilities as us, this does not mean anything, the soviets have had nuke for years and years.
I dont really care if India has nuke, and I doubt they'd put it in space unless we do it first, its insane to put it in space but I see them doing it to protect themselves from us, I mean we are willing to go to war just because we want to without going through the UN, I wouldnt blame India for being alittle bit scared of us.
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A little bit of added competition in the space arena is exactly what is needed. The more countries that put their space programs on the map, the more pressure there is for the larger space programs to stay on top of things.
I think this could be a very good thing for even more expansion in space.
And even if the pressure isn't put in other programs, it's still an increase in the space research being done.
They need to feed their people first. A trip to the moon is a huge waste of money.
For what the average Indian earns in one year, well, a moon trip could feed millions of their people for a year and well at that.
Just plain stupid. Besides, what the fsck do they need to go there for anyway??
There's NO benefit in it for them as a country or as a people.
STUPID.. Plain STUPID...
Current indian rockets (PSLV and GSLV) which place a few tons into space already give them the long range missile tech know how. Its not weaponized right now (i believe).
..... ... india has always stood for complete nuclear disarmament. The stated position is that once a NON-DESCRIMINATORY (not like npt) treaty is in place, it will give up nukes.
.. i still cant understand the logic behind the reasoning that some countries have an inherent right to keep nuclear weapons, while the rest should live without them. Why dont we all give it up???
and besides
Btw
Life is just a conviction.
I think it's a good thing that countries like India and China have their sights set at the moon.
The sooner we start mining the He3 up there, the better.
For the whole planet's sake, we've gotta start colonising the moon.
that is 96.5 million dollars (assuming 1 dollar is 40 rupees). "Titanic" - movie cost more than twice as much. Lets hope that this does better than the titanic. 1 crore = 100 lakhs. 10 lakhs = 1 million.
India's Moon probe will be equipped with a record-breaking 100 robotic arms.
Well, actually lag time to the moon wouldn't be all that bad (1.5 seconds one-way), but imagine networking Mars and Earth? If we remain Earth-centric, MarsNet would always be behind the times by between 4-20 minutes, depending on, you know, how far away the planets are. So Martians would never be able to get FP on Slashdot. How sad. Not to mention, Martians would cry over their ping times to routers on Earth.
Wasting money for a manned mission to mars doesn't give us the return on investments that we really should have with government spending.
You must not be from around here. Are you Canadian? How dare you expect a return on investment from the US government? Next thing you'll be telling me we're capitalist, and should expect a return on investment from our jobs, our homes, and our lives.
Like what I said? You might like my music
More countries having nuclear ICBM capability is simply not a recipe for world peace.
I'd much prefer if nobody had any nukes, but living in a country that has its own, I certainly can't blame another country for joining the Look Ma, I Can Blow Stuff Up club.
Besides, I'd venture to say that a belief in karma is a stronger deterrent to actually using them than a belief in MAD.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
why does it seem like every time an article like this appears there are always the 20 people who say
"US = GOOD BETTER BEAT THEM IN EVERYTHING"
Why can't we just promote that space travel is the only way off this doomed rock, and that if humanity doesn't stick together in this effort, it's doomed.
Excuse me, I don't mean to impose, but I am the ocean
to see interest back in the moon.
Having colonies on the moon has a lot of advantages, for example, launching some sort of spacecraft from the moon to another object ( say, an asteriod ) and then back, sort of like making round trips. This sort if thing would be great for mining, since having shuttles having to go back and forth through the earth's atmosphere would be expensive for mining.
Please stop this nonsense about wasting money on the space programme when there are hungry mouths to feed. The money spent just doesn't vaporize into nowhere. It is spend on equipment(to manufacture which, ppl are employed and paid),scientists(who would spend the money) all resulting in money trickling down to the lowest part of the economy. This is not abt wasting money. Its about using it to do something productive.
It isn't.
Gentlemen! You can't fight in here, this is the War Room!
I think this trip to the moon is especially significant since unlike the last time India made a very high-profile foray into space, it will be doing so on its own. In 1984, Rakesh Sharma became the first Indian to go into space. However, he was carried there by the Russians on a Soyuz T-11. This time, the vehicle will be conducted by the Indians and it won't be carried out through the generosity of Russia.
Also, technological progress is a positive disruptive influence on Indian society. This mission will add to the numerous changes that have come about in India recently, both economically and socially.
Posting messages for the betterment of humanity..
Their space agency is going to find out that all their technical experts are in the US.
Table-ized A.I.
"In other words, India will end up with nuclear ICBMs."
Of course, this isn't surprising news coming from the crackpot Prime Minister who decided he needed nuclear toys to "defend" his nation from a far less advanced/far less populous neighbor in the first place.
and the argument would be wrong.
does that sound even faintly like the united states in 1969?
source: the cia
2 1337 4 u!
the homeless Vets begging on the streets in
Boston, and the homeless American women in
the riches country on Earth should be thankfull
because... they at least have safe driking water.
For the riches country on Earth we should
not feel proud if our prostitutes can at least
drink safe water. (Not should Mr. Gates should
be proud if he is able to provide his kids
a bowl of cereal in the morning. There is no
much pride in it.)
Now we're outsourcing our fucking astronauts?
If you were me, you'd be good lookin'. - six string samurai
Iraq - no nukes - gets invaded - lots of dead people on both sides. (and counting). N Korea has nukes - no sign of it getting invaded - nobody has died.
Thas is funny. Thanks.
> the most xenophobic, racist, and elitist society in history
Natch. that honour goes to their fellow Aryans, the mid-40s National Socialists (whose symbol incidentally was a bad copy of the Hindu swastika), who were xenophobic, racist and elitist, and claimed the lives of 6 million Jews to prove it.
Go somewhere random
Well as to budgetary numbers sound not that unlike those of the US, today. Whatever happened to the fiscally conservative Republican party?
http://yetanotherpoliticalrant.blogspot.com
US makes technology advancements = benefit of humanity
Other country does the same = War/Terrorism
Quite simple actually!
At this point in time, I'd have to agree with you, but with the advances in material science and aeronautics not to mention software that will happen in the next ten years, 2020 might be a good time for a first Mars mission.
Mars needs to be our medium term planning. How else will we propogate our species further and increase our species' survival expectancy?
http://yetanotherpoliticalrant.blogspot.com
It's true.
I would just like to say, that given the chance, I would have put a bullet in that bastard's face.
Moon cheese.
The damage this far less advanced/far less populous neighbor is causing India is far more that what could fit in your little pea brain. Sorry for being a troll, but I can't stand such uninformed statements (and of course I am from India).
Great now we can outsource to the moon for even less :)
Rus
Cheap UK and US VPS
and whether this a good thing or not.
You can't throw money at poverty and expect the problem to go away. The urban renewal projects in the inner cities of America proved that. The underlying reasons for poverty must be addressed.
Yes, a moon mission won't do a damn thing for poverty directly but it will move a nation forward technologically so that people that were once making carpets or driving taxis can now make rockets and drive spaceships. A poor nation technologically will result in a poor populace. Call centres and computer software engineering have pushed India incrementally ahead already, to deny those moves forward to "solve" the poverty issue is to simply perpetuate their impoverishment.
With the moves forward in technology and the education that surrounds such improvements you have a population that will not accept low paying jobs when they have skills far beyond them. In a few decades you have economic growth that will eventually push low paying jobs to other areas of the world; eventually and hopefully you end up with a world where Nike or Rebook can't make their shit anywhere for less than a reasonable wage.
That's my theory, but the hell do I know.
If you are an Indian, I am sure you are not living here.
There are always some very negative comments when stories like these appear. China and India are both very large countries and after a sort of sleep of almost a century they are stirring up. These kind of space programs are inevitable, there will come from the sheer momentum of what is happening in these countries today. I grew up in India and now I spend a lot of time in China. So I would like to say some thing from this perspective, Some years ago, I used to teach some classes at CDAC (center for development of advanced computing) at Bangalore, India. At that time they were working on building a supercomputer. There were a lot of critics who said that the money could be spent on the upliftment of the poor. Today CDAC exports this computer. And think of the knowledge and expertise and the project management skills that came of this project. Similarly, the moon project is a "killer demo app" for the Indian space and allied industry. The knowledge and the expertise would raise other high tech industry and help them in selling their services. Also, unknown to many India has a good space science research program. Outside Pune there is the Giant Meter wave Radio Telescope (http://www.ncra.tifr.res.in/) and in Ladhak they have the Himalayan Chandra Telescope, the highest observatory in the world. There are institutions that are active in fundamental particle research (TIFR http://www.tifr.res.in/). So there is more to India's space program then just brag. The politicians need the "brag" but ISRO (Indian Space Research Organisation) has been always very humble and always pre-announces all its launches and gives detailed information on failed launches too . Compare this to the Chinese agency which only announces the launch after it has been successful. In India there is a deep interest in space sciences in general. I remember as a school kid, us being taken to planetariums. Translated Russian space books were very popular- I remember one book - The sun's wind written by Alexei Leonov (the first man to space walk). Our HSC (A level) English text had some science fiction too. There were and still are active astronomy clubs and societies. In the 80s, when we had only one TV channel, Carl Sagan's Cosmos was one of the few foreign programs that was aired along with regular re-runs of the original Star Trek and Fireball XL-5 (anyone remembers this.. it was a puppet animation). So what I am saying is - yes there is poverty and lot of other things that need fixing, but these things just don't get fixed by putting money. What the current Indian leaders are hoping to do is to create programs that inspire people (or as the current Indian president likes to say "Ignite Minds". The president APJ Abdul Kalam is a Space Scientist BTW). These kinds of ventures encourage a farm worker to put his kids in school because he sees where the country is heading and where his kids have a better future.
Why do you have to measure everything in terms of $s?
Why does everyone automatically assume that this was a mistake?!
.The stated aim of the mission is to
The Indian government want to show off the advances they have made in time travel!
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
Scientifically, there's no reason you can't do this. The trick is to go at night.
The obvious drawback is they'll have to use the battery-powered kind of flashlight.
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.
I agree, more nukes is bad. ICBMs trigger the work more closer to Death. Let's see how we fare.
-------- Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate -- the bombs always hit the ground.
He is much better than a crackpot President who thinks all moslems are terrorists and bites the hand that feeds him.
-------- Cluster bombing from B-52s is very, very accurate -- the bombs always hit the ground.
America didnt and STILL DOESNT have a public health system
America still practices the barbaric practice of execution by electric chair (Don't even get me started on guantanamo bay)
America's gun crime is the highest per capita of any in the world
America's welfare program is hardly fair
Every country larage and small has it's problems, and I wish for one minute that American's would stop pretending they lived in a perfect country, stop dashing off to solve (*cough* create) problems in other countries and take a good long hard look at their own country.
If you would look at the percentages, you would see a different picture.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Maybe cutting out excess breding would certainly have helped it acheive its goal faster.Certainly at this rate .. nyet
Prejudice is a troll, but you were modded up, so too bad you didn't take time to RTFArticles.
This is a moonshot that costs about one-ninth to one-sixth of a shuttle launch. The European and Canadian Space Agencies are interested. India has traditionally received technological support from the Russian programme, but it's cheaper to use indigenous launch vehicles, no matter how threatened USA feels by large markets (even if the population is poor) being independent. And this is an exploration mission as a prelude to commercial missions. So why would India spend money on this and what does the market have to do with it?
Because India's space programme launches communications satellites which, like TCP/IP over railway communications lines, bring literacy to remote villages. Yes the schools in the villages need satellite dishes and the railroad stations need network stations, but the government provides them!
Because India's space programme launches weather satellites which, along with the communications satellites, help farmers in isolated regions to increase their yields.
Because with Japan and China shooting for the moon while NASA stagnates, India wants to position itself now as a contender for lunar mining and lunar transit station operations for deep space missions, services for which other countries (like ESA and CSA) and private companies worldwide will pay . And that money can be used to feed people!
Imagine that, creating high tech jobs to help farmers grow more food and to sell services to the global market and use the money to educate and feed more people.
With Congress cutting NASA's budget, how much of the savings are used to help feed poverty stricken Americans?
Then, why don't we have (toll) highways owned and maintained by PRIVATE ENTREPRISE???? ...
That's what I thought.
I don't think that's very funny. More frightening. Only silly eurotrash like yourself, would find something like this funny.
How small a thought it takes to fill a whole life
Just maybe the Indian space program will encourage and inspire young people there to take up careers in science and engineering. Read 'the October sky' sometimes. In the long term, engineers, economists, and teachers will put more food on the nation's table than social workers handing out food stamps. Inspiration, determination and a little pride in one's own country can accomplish much...
If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
Typical illeterate and pretentious American comment: one, they plan to send a probe, not astronauts (you didn't read the article), and two, you suppose that because they're indians, they'll fail. Time to upgrade you power grid, while Indians go on the moon, son.
For all those who have been whining about the state of India's finances and poverty levels, let me add that the PM in his Independence Day speech (think State of the Union) is also building highways, creating jobs in rural areas, not to mention modernizing our ports and major airports.
May I also add that India's external finances are in great shape ( a $6.5tn deficit comes to mind, cough cough ) and we are at present reorganizing our expensive debt.
We are sitting on so much cash, (and soon, low interest debt) that for the first time, India has become a lender nation.
Inflation is static at just under 2%, the Indian rupee has been holding its ground against all international currencies. Duties are being lowered, tariffs and trade barriers are being slashed, capital and bond markets are flourishing -- why the hell can't we have a moon mission?
Agreed, poverty and health problems cannot be disregarded, but to say this money would be better spent anywhere else is just stupidity -- India has long prided herself on her space programme -- we have great comm satellites and have been launching them since the early '70s, and a moon probe is a logical next step.
Finally, the moon probe is just one proposal among many, and slashdot readers, or at least those posting derogatory comments, need to keep a sense of proportion.
shooting is not too good for my enemies
Was enough. Think of your fingers' health.
No, wait. Let me rephrase that...
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
outsource the development to india....
oh wait.
Where does india go to oursource stuff?
Someday, I'll have a real sig.
Where did you get these numbers? I don't know what the Indian poverty line is but I can't believe that America has 50 million homeless people. I also thought there were more then 200 million people living in America. And I presume the 10/100 infant mortality is a typing error, but 10/1000 is still quite high for a developed country. In Holland only 5.2 children per 1000 die in their first year.
-- Cheers!
I was just making a joke about their tech support being busy.. sheesh.
Many read the article and like me made the mistake of assuming it would be a manned flight.
I just didn't think another probe would make news... we are already sick of hearing about Mars explorers, and now we are suppossed to be excited about another moon probe?
The unofficial
Mabey this will give NASA som clout to go to Congress with an aggressive plan to conquer the Red Planet before the 2nd tier space nations go where USA has gone before.
This will also be interresting in terms of the tech spinoffs. Remember, the tech had to be INVENTED for the 1969 moon flight. What is possible with todays tech and how will this expand our understanding of the application of todays 'best tech'?
I am the Barber of Seville.
The cultural momentum is there even if the availability of resources isn't apparent.
"It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
The solution, for both the USA and India, is a cheaper space program. Use X-Prize type prizes to enable entreprenuers to evolve cheap re-usable spacecraft. NASA and government organisations are no good at this - their infrastructure is too expensive for the commercialisation of space.. $600 million per shuttle launch?? come on guys..
And maybe instead of spending billions on invading foreign countries USA should pay better Sergeants who have to depend on Food #stamps to make ends meet.
Wanted : A Signature.
When you give free food to a hungry unemployed poor person, they're still unemployed, poor, and will get hungry again.
You don't reduce poverty by giving food to poor people. You reduce poverty by creating more jobs for more people. Building technology is a good way to do that.
Your's is a common, well-meaning notion driven by compassion. But it's wrong. Yes, feed the hungry, but if you stop there and don't create an economy that enables them to support themselves, all you've done is to create a permanent dependent underclass.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
I don't know if this jab at the current state of the US is meant to be sarcastic, but here are some more realistic figures for those who are curious.
(from the CIA World Factbook and other sources as listed)
1. 3% of the US population is illiterate
2. 12.7% of the US is under the US poverty line, defined as an individual earning less than USD 8,860 a year. The Indian poverty line, by comparison, is defined by the world bank to be earning less than USD 365 a year (from Poverty USA and India Watch).
3. Infant mortality in the US is not 10/1000. It is 6.75/1000. That is not the lowest in the world, but the figure ranks among most developed nations. Cholesterol-related teenager deaths? While the USA is getting too fat, causing a rise in diabetes in young people, I have not heard of a rise of teenage heart attacks or teenage heart disease fatalities, so I think your theory is way off. The obesity problem bodes poorly for lifespan and healthcare costs, but not so much for teenage mortality.
4. I won't dispute this last point much. The deficit now is ridiculous, and it was equally ridiculous when we went to the moon ourselves. Such spending is certainly not sustainable over the long haul. However, comparing deficit-per-capita means nothing without considering the deficit as percent of money brought in. A 30 billion deficit on 50 billion collected, as in India (if the previous posts were correct), is 60%, compared to $600 billion on 2 trillion, which is around 30%.
However, budget deficits aside, I think the point most people have is that India has many more places it should be spending its money other than space and nuclear weapons. Beside the high poverty in India, the caste system still rears its ugly head in the rural areas, which hampers development.
The Economist recently did a feature comparing China and India, basically showing how much farther China is ahead of its neighbor.
--Scott
Bear in mind that the goal isn't the only thing achieved. Along the way, new technologies are developed that can be applied to more down to earth (literally) problems.
Also, consider the fact that if our ancestors weren't so interested in taking the time and resources to explore the world, some countries wouldn't exist as we know them today.
Wonder if Pakistan is going to announce a space programme any time soon? They seem to be rivals in just about everything else...
India will be facing some tough challenges this century. Research has shown that water supplies in the soil will get exhausted and massive amounts of people will suffer and probably die because of this. Admittedly, they'll be proud of having sent a probe to the moon and possessing nuclear weapons. But I really don't see this moon project as a scientific or technological achievement, it's just an extension of their military.
SifyNews reports that 2008 was initially mispronounced as 1908.
;-)
I guess they haven't installed their Y2k patches yet.
Basil
1908 was the year of the mysterious Tunguska impact
flossie
Write now. Defend liberty
We would like to eventually put a man on the moon... and then see the effects of doing yoga in 1/6 of earth's gravity. Then compare it to the 0g Yoga when we had an Indian in the space.
Yes, what is the US doing about inner city decay, farm foreclosures, AIDS, west nile virus, blackouts?
Oh yes, they invaded Iraq.
Wrong priority?
Such arguments can be made for anything and everything. For example : The united states spent blah blah blah billions on a space program while 40 million people go without health insurance and so on. Retrograde anti-scientific morons in every era always argue against science and lose
Besides George Bush???
The republicans are not fiscally conservative. They are politically Conservative. Their fiscal policy depends more on who is looking for handouts -- Little people get nothing, Big companies get lots. Under a solidly Republican party, the US has given lots of money to bug business (mostly via reduced taxes) and then gone to war for big business (thus increasing expenditures and giving even more money to big business).
THe biggest difference between corporate welfare and regular welfare is how much money goes to each recipient, and what they do with it.
Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
The facts in this book are almost always skewed one way or another no matter how objective it is.
they have much better uses for the money
Like what? A massive government spending program that will generate high-paying engineering jobs? Oh wait...
0 1 - just my two bits
I think India would be better off leaving these tax dollars in the hands of the Indian entrepreneurs, who seem to be doing a MUCH BETTER JOB now in terms of developing the economy THAN THE GOVERNMENT DID before economic reform of the early 1990's.
It isn't clear that going to the moon is a money-making venture. Better to let some neo-John-Carmack down there to start a sub-orbital space tourist business and make some money.
Socialism is its own reward, I hope India learned that from 1960-1990. Because it is time for more pro-capitalist economic reforms in India, not time for more central government socialist spending.
The space race was a cleverly designed PR piece that told the rest of the world that we could put a very large missile wherever we wanted it, whether in space, or on the moon, or in Moscow in a half-hour. Let there be no bones about it. If you saw what we spent on NASA vs. balistic missile testing, your jaw would drop.
By the way, the USSR was doing, and trying to do, the exact same thing we were.
Spare me the anti-US rhetoric about my country always being a bunch of bullies and the rest of the world a bunch of well-meaning space teletubbies. It is just plain ignorant of history... both of my nation and the history of man's aggression in general. "Big dog" politics has been happening since before humans could write. Mankind has always had useless demonization of the other tribe, which you are now guily of as the next guy. Way to not overcome it. You should put your ignorance in check, as well as your limited, uneducated world view and personal politics.
All the blessings in the world to you now that you are out from under Soviet rule.
Many of us in America hoped for that day. Many of us knew how good our lives were and wished happiness to the rest of the world. I am happy you are free.
May you enjoy and love the life of your choosing that many of us in America do not appreciate as much as you do.
I'm far more afraid of the USA having ICBMs than India.
If people are stupid enough to blow each other up then we deserve to die. The fear of war should never be used to prevent the advancement of science and our dreams.
I know this isn't related to the topic at hand, but:
Some of you are saying India should spend its money on helping reduce poverty, others are saying this space program will do this indirectly.
The reality is, US has a land area of just over 9 million sq km. India has a land area of just over 3 million sq km.
Considering the fact that US has more resourceful land, and has a population less than 1/3 of India, isn't the main problem population?
India celebrated when they reached 1 billion. I think the real celebration should be when they go back under 1 billion (if that ever happens).
But yes I do think this space program definitely has a better affect on the national economy than just giving food/money away.
Marge, get me your address book, 4 beers, and my conversation hat.
Now we can pay India $2 billion to do a space mission instead of spending $10 billion to do it with NASA! American astronauts better start finding another career real quick!
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There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
1) If a space program in India allows them to develop hydroponic technology, that would allow more people to be fed and employ thousands of people to make the piping necessary for hydroponic farming (Ever been to Disneyworld? If you've had a salad there, you've eaten hydroponically-grown food)
2) Space programs spend money. That will help alleviate the poverty problem as more people are employed, increase government revenue as other countries expand existing demand or create new contracts to launch their own satellites into orbit, and save some Indian children through advances in medicine and material science (new insights into pharmacology, physiology, and pathophysiology [bad effects on the body caused by space travel share characteristics with other diseases] just to name a few)
3) Spending money on space programs increases our abilities to counter threats from space when they arise. Stray asteroids could wipe out the entire planet, not just the poor of Calcutta. The problem with the poverty-stricken masses in the 3rd world in largely caused by feeding them enough to allow them to have multiple children who end up starving during the next generation. We tried feeding the 2 billion poor of the world after World War II as part of our desire to make allies during the Cold War, now we have 4 billion poor in the same areas who we are being asked to feed instead. Let the Third World take care of itself for a generation so it can establish equilibrium then let us teach them how to take care of themselves instead of just giving them handouts. Having spent time volunteering in one of our nation's busiest public hospitals, I also recommend you take time to fix domestic problems before focusing on international ones. If India chooses space over social programs, that is their business.
As long as there is a Second Amendment, there will always be a First Amendment.
What are you talking about. To me it makes perfect business sense as well. There are no doubt political adavantages to it. But would you rather have this or "gharibi hatao" (remove poverty) slogan others have been using for quite some time. Imagine the technogolies that will come out of this venture. Look at open source developement. So many new tools come out while developing something else. Imagine the satellite launch market. I would rather plant one seed I have and stay hungry for some time until I have tree which will provide continous supply. If I eat it today, tomorrow I will have to go begging again(World Bank, IMF, etc..).
Even the longest journey is started by taking one step at time. How do you think we will finally match the stage US is in, if we don't travel the entire road. Do you think there are shortcuts? Please do tell us. We would definetely would like to skip 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s and jump straight to 21st century!!!!
The nuclear powered craft will be called "Shiva".
Anyone afraid yet?
------ The best brain training is now totally free : )
The modern nation of India isn't that old, in all fairness. It was a British possession for centuries, and before that it was never united. In this period they haven't actually invaded anybody, but they've had countless skirmishes with Pakistan, border disputes with China, and have spent a good portion of the last half century oppressing both people in the Kashmir region and Sikhs throughout the country.
Sure space missions use money, but most important for India and China is they use up the resource of smart people. I don't know about China, but I know India has plenty of smart, well educated people who have nothing to do with their skills. Take a few of those people and have them work on space, and they suddenly have a job. And since each person working now has money, the effect snowballs meaning many more people work to do the jobs that the sapce people don't have time to do now that they have a good job... Good for the ecconomy so long as dept doesn't get out of control.
Note that I'm not convinced that the above argument is a good idea, but it is very common, and has some points in its favor.
of their master plan to populate the moon...
excellent, now they can breed more and steal more IT jobs...
_________ Help me get a PSP!
That's 5 years to develop your craft, train your crew and stop thinking your Jimmy Neutron.
I, for one, welcome our new moon-faring Indian overlords!
http://www.club977.com/ - The 80's Channel!
Your source for commercial free 80's music!
Tell me how NASA or moon-landing contributed to the bottom-line of the USA. People need to look at the history to do things differently.
Government and the elite needs to think about coming up with innovative ways along the lines of what H-P is doing with its iCommunity project in the Indian village called Kuppam.
Adopting my best Indian accent...
"We do not do these things because they are easy. No, no, no, no. That would be very very bad. No, indeed. We do them precisely because they are very very hard."
-- thinkyhead software and media
Ugh. After seeing this movie, I see grandiose Indian projects like this in a different light. http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0326/hoberman.p hp
Why bother pursuing a space program when you have a country to care for? Such inappropriately lofty goals; it seems unethical to dump millions of dollars into ceramic tile R&D when your country (1,000,000,000+) largely lives below the poverty line?
What people do for the sake of rabid nationalism is frightening.
And you've resorted to name calling. Boogerhead.
"I'll never feel corrupt, racist, and demented again."
Shouldn't this be based on your actions, and not on your citizenship? What does your place of residence have to do with this? Oh wait, you're an apologist, sorry I almost missed that. So does that make me a corrupt, racist, demented person too? Holy crap! I never knew! I owe you big.
One dollar can buy about 6 pounds of healthy high quality food (vegetables, fruits, low cholesterol beef), and a good DVD player costs about a hundred bucks. Health care is also cheaper compared to the individual earning.
That's one of the reasons the math related to economy is a little bit complex...
What is the "return on investment" of roads, highways and interstates???
The Anonymous Coward is right. :)
The Eisenhower Interstate system was built by one of the former generals of the US Army, a man who served during WWII and saw the military advantage of the European highways built by, uhhh, Hitler.
Then, why don't we have (toll) highways owned and maintained by PRIVATE ENTREPRISE???? ...
I-35 through Kansas is a toll road. Toll roads abound in other parts of the country.
I would describe your post as nationalistic. :) Question your government, for they are only your government by your consent. They should be accountable for their actions. This accountability cannot be achieved by bandwagon nationalism, but only through thoughtful questioning by the citizens that support them.
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Thought you meant USians until I read the rest of the paragraph. What makes you think one of the races in India is xenophobic, racist and elitist? And which one of the Indian races do you think that is?
All who support the caste system, which is widespread, socially-endorsed racism. What makes me think that? Careful study.... :)
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Natch. that honour goes to their fellow Aryans, the mid-40s National Socialists (whose symbol incidentally was a bad copy of the Hindu swastika), who were xenophobic, racist and elitist, and claimed the lives of 6 million Jews to prove it.
Ok, I'm genuinely curious here. The Aryans, as an ancient civilization, grew up in what is now known as Iran (note the similarities in spelling) and were originally known as Persia. Of course, nobody actually called them Persians, they were the Aryan Kingdoms and non-Aryan lands. They are also credited as being the civilization that introduced the concept of conquering the world, which is quite differet than just quibbling and fighting pitched battles and so forth, which was quite common. So how did this ancient civilization located in what is now Iran become Germany? Aren't the Germans descended from white european tribes that were painting themselves blue when the Aryan race originally struck out to conquer the world? (An action which predates Rome, of course, and Greece, by quite some time. The Persians would be put in check by Alexander the Great, who also rose up to conquer the world, and may have likely developed the idea independently of the Persians)
Besides all that, there is more than pure irony in the fact that Hitler copied a Hindu symbol and adopted it as the symbol of the super-race. Birds of a feather, and so forth. THe difference being that India never industrialized on their own, and to my knowledge has never been a world power (even in anciet times), while Germany has done both of these. Give India a chance, and we'll see who is really untouchable and who is not.
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I'm killing time right now, so I'm going to be long winded ;)
:-D) at the time of the Industrial Revolution, and industrialization in India was discouraged when it was economically beneficial to Britain. Example: Cloth mills were not allowed in India for a very long time because the East India company's monopoly on importing cloth from England's famous Lancashire mills would be busted. (In fact, Gandhi later used the spinning wheel as a form of civil disobedience for just this reason -- he would rather make his rough homespun cloth himself than wear high-priced imported cloth)
;), and (b) because India is very energy-poor country and simply cannot afford to buy the energy (i.e., oil/gas) it would take to have high levels of industrialization and (c) the large population makes labor cheap, so there's little incentive to build labor-saving devices.
:)
> The Aryans, as an ancient civilization, grew up in what is now known as Iran
Persians do call their earliest civilization "Aryan", but so do parts of Germany and India. As far as I am concerned, "Aryan" is a term a lot of people are quick to claim, but have little to back it up. Here's what I understand from the mythology (you really can't call it history):
There was once a group of very early men (~4000 BC) who emerged out of Central Asia (and possibly Persia) and, in a Dune-like Scattering, went forth to South Asia towards the East and parts of Europe towards the West. Alternatively, they originated in Europe and spread Eastward. These people effectively were the stock from which all other Aryan nations originated.
There was never a "Aryan" civilization in the sense of a Greek, Roman , Chinese or Indus Valley civilization, i.e., pre/historic ruins and so forth. The only (scant) evidence is linguistic roots: words like "apel" (apple) and "mater" (mother) repeat time and again in several languages in the Indo-European family, suggesting a shared past.
> India never industrialized on their own
India was under British rule (the East India Company: case study of what happens when a giant multinational corporation owns a country
After Independence, India _did_ industrialize. Not to the same extent as Europe/America, chiefly because (a) unfortunately because of a socialist/Gandhian hangover, India's early leaders somehow equated industry with evil (not unlike some slashdotters of today
> and to my knowledge has never been a world power (even in anciet times)
India, like Europe, was a collection of States. Before the British conquest, there were only 2 or 3 instances when one Indian ruler held territory equivalent to even ~80% of what India is today. The idea of "one India" is, ironically, an English one.
That said, like China for much of its history, kings of these Indian states had a rather inward-looking outlook (Something about Eastern philosophy?). It (generally) projected no naval power, sent out no missionaries nor missions of conquest (apart from some early forays into SE Asia, which is why the world largest Hindu temple is in Cambodia, not India).
> untouchable
Btw, untouchability is illegal under the Indian consitution. India has plenty of problem, yes, but untouchability in everyday life isn't one of them.
Even caste, that bugbear of Indian civilization is becoming less of problem (although it hasn't vanished) as folk become more educated and urbanized. It's often said that the degree to which caste is a problem in a given Indian region is inversely proportional to the spread of MTV, HBO and Pepsi there
Go somewhere random
Because India's space programme launches communications satellites which, like TCP/IP over railway communications lines, bring literacy to remote villages. Yes the schools in the villages need satellite dishes and the railroad stations need network stations, but the government provides them!
Why the Indian government failed not provide standard telephony to those areas many decades before will then remain a complete mistery.
I mean, why would they use the latest tech gear now, and not have done it before ?
There's a problem here...
And I seriously doubt that it is cheaper to use satellites than a standard telephony wire system. If wire is cheaper for us in USA and EU then it's not going to be different for India.
Moreover, it's also dubious that bringing "knowledge" to uneducated masses without bringing material stuff that they can work on with such knowledge will help them raise their standard of living close to those living in big cities.
Even people in big cities are really poor in India, so it's not like their problem is technology.
Funny how this myth about technology being the solution to all problems - especially poverty, seems to spread so easily.
The solution to poverty is not to send pigs in space or invest in high tech R&D, it is to give money to the poor ones.
IE *share*.
You can brainstorm the problem for centuries, you won't find another solution. As long as there are inequalities, no tech will help poors to become riches or at least less-poors.
Economics is a zero sum game, what the riches have, the poors have not. No amount of tech toys is going to change that.
(though I'd love it to be true)
You insult me by putting words in my mouth and by associating my comments with your unreasoning meanderings.
First, I don't agree that the U.S. or the EU have a "permanent dependent" underclass. To the contrary, I do believe that there is more opportunity for personal financial growth in these countries than anywhere on the planet. That is why so many people want to leave their own countries and move here.
I believe that it is natural for some people in a society to have more wealth than others. That means that the people atone end of that spectrum will be always "poorer" than people at the other end. However, that doesn't mean they will be doomed to lead lives of poverty. Wealth is relative. (Better to be officially poor in the U.S. or the EU than to be poor in sub-Saharan Africa.)
I believe we measure economic fairness in terms of access to opportunity, not by forced distribution of wealth. People want to acquire more goods and services, and by working to ensure access to opportunities to increase personal wealth, we ensure that everyone has the means to do that. Politically or socially mandated efforts to artifically distribute wealth in a "fair" way simply remove the means to acquire personal wealth, creating a failed and stagnating economy. (That's the basic lesson of the failed USSR and all of its socialist cousins.)
If you want to call that "unfair", that is your right. But, it is also my right to assert that your opinion is driven by emotion and an incorrect understanding of human nature and economic fairness.
-- Slashdot: When Public Access TV Says "No"
> I was explaining that you should not think that way.
;-).
Actually I don't, perhaps I used wrong words. I liked your way of explaining though
>America's welfare program is hardly fair > >Yes, I should pay more taxes so my hard earned >money can be given to someone who: >(a) is too lazy to find a job, or >(b) is too immature to hold a job for more than >a week, or >(c) failed to get educated becuase they were too >busy jerking off when they were being offered a >free education in our public high schools, or >(d) couldn't keep their legs closed or their >dick in their pants and now wants to blame me >for having to support a family. I'm on Welfare. (a) I'm not lazy or immature. (b) I am educated. (c) I have a hole in my spinal cord, at C7. This creates a pocket of fluid therein.... (d) *I AM* waiting on the lazy .gov idiots at social security to get around to doing their job. So far, it's taken 4 years (2 years of bureaucratic red tape between each step in the system).
Welfare provides my son and I with food, a place to live, medication ($1,500/month), and health care ($30,000/year). Without this system, my son would be an orphan. Sure, a great deal of people on welfare fit YOUR description....but not all of us.
I'm waiting for WOOT to offer an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. I need one.
Note to self: Don't use the HTML formatting.
I'm waiting for WOOT to offer an Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. I need one.
Economics is NOT a zero sum game. Wealth is created NOT distributed.
;)
Wealth is created, true, from physical resources, which as you may know are exhaustable and finite. Our means to recycle them are also limited.
Theoretical economics may not be a zero sum game, but when you add physics to this very nice (but unrealistic) model, it begins to be reality-compliant and ceases to be a useless mathematician utopia where wealth can be indefinitely multiplied.
The earth is finite, so is wealth. And even if it weren't, pollution growth being proportional to economic growth, we are going to see the limits of indefinite exponential economic growth very soon.
Does the words "global warning" mean anything to you ? A reality check may be a good thing sometime
Dude the first Indian "Cosmonaut" Rakesh Sharma was the 138th man into space- human.h tml
"http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SPACE/space
Dr. Kalpana Chawla was an Indian American , and died in the colmbia crash on feb 1st 2003.
Which *obviously* means that nuclear weapons are required, in order to threaten to decimate a population whose military India could crush if it decided to do so?
Only one of the races in India supports the caste system, and not very member of that race does. IT'S ILLEGAL. Seems like you're damning all of Indian society because of the outlawed way of thinking of one segment of it's population. It's like saying USA shouldn't have nukes because the KKK is racist. 7 of the last 11 US presidents were from the south. KKK is widespread in the south. That proves KKK controls the Bomb. Sounds silly doesn't it? But that's what you did.
A few differences. One is that I have actually spoken with more than a few immigrants from India who told me the caste system was still going. I did not know that it was illegal, now, though. However, I have not damned all of Indian society, just the people who are in power, since the racism is supported politically, even if it is illegal (much like most of the US's history of independence. Racism has been illegal, but supported by the government, even after the Civil War).
And yes, because of the prejudices in the US, I don't think the US should have nukes.
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40% illiteracy out of 1 billion people means 600 million literate people. That's equal to the total populations of the USA and EU combined. I'm sure they can spare a few thousand to work on a space program. And if they really have an annual govt revenue of $48 billion -- well, that means that on average each indian pays only $48 per year in taxes. I'm packing my bags.
But if you want to talk similarities with 1969 USA how about comparing the India-Pakistan nuclear standoff with USA-USSR. The space race was a major part of cold war rivalry (not to mention an important "peaceful" forum for developing missile technology). Maybe India sees things similarly.
The author of this post asserts his moral rights.
$1 earing per day = Rs 45. Cost of food : Rs 10 (max) Misc : Rs 20 Balance : Rs 15 This doesn't look bad at all as ~ 30% savings!! This estimate is for the lower wage earners. The problem is the US 'PRINTS' money as much as they wish to (the Fed does that, and pays the treasury 4 cents per $) - why, where - go figure? So they can give as much as they like to the wage earners $30 worth of paper per day whose value is actually 120 cents to the Fed. So a person in the US gets 20c more! It's the trust that is put into the dollar whose worth is 25 times more. that 'dollar' bubble is about to burst.
I must disagree.
When formaulating an idea what is more important; the resources, or the knowledge to put them to use? Wealth is created from knowledge, not resources. While there are certain endeavors that require resources in order to succeed the idea is what brings success and prosperity, not the resources themselves. Without the idea resources are just hunks of steel and plastic with no purpose.
Funny, that's a lot different story than I get from Sikhs that aren't posting anonymously on message boards.