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The Economist on Open Source in Government

locarecords.com writes "The Economist has an excellent article about Microsoft attempting to undermine the Open Source and Free Software movements. Particularly interesting are the issues relating to proprietary software and government and how other countries are mandating free software in government software projects."

331 comments

  1. Economy 101: by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Make sure your market is not undermined by the competition, free or otherwise.

    1. Re:Economy 101: by Frymaster · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Make sure your market is not undermined by the competition, free or otherwise.

      well put. i am tired of hearing that capitalism is based on competition and risk. it isn't. capitalism is based on mitigating risk as much as possible and eliminating the competition if feasible. all capitalist systems tend towards monopolism naturally.

    2. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's Economics 101. Not Economy.

    3. Re:Economy 101: by Hatta · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes all. Money makes money faster than hard work or good ideas.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Economy 101: by smittyoneeach · · Score: 1

      At a higher level of abstraction, capitalism is darwinian.
      The zero-sum games balance out in the long run.
      While the trend of world governments away from MS is alarming, particularly if there is a lot of MSFT in your portfolio, it really is a cause of rejoicing for the rest of us.
      The death of the 800 pound gorilla will foment a golden age of IT employment. Somebody has to figure out what to do with the bazillion different configurations that are going to come out of all this.
      Massive Shift! Multi-lateralism Superior! Monopoly Sucks!

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
    5. Re:Economy 101: by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 1
      At a higher level of abstraction, capitalism is darwinian.
      ...
      Massive Shift! Multi-lateralism Superior! Monopoly Sucks!
      Eventually, capitalism will be Microsoft's demise. Darwinism quickly drives non-diversified ecologies into the ground...
    6. Re:Economy 101: by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 4, Informative

      Lots of people rag on "captialism" without realizing that what they are complaining about is the shortfallings of our own systems from being capitalistic. Government intervention is necessary to remove corruptions like monopolization from the system. And "we, the people" are needed to remove corruption from the government.

    7. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A perfect example of mondialist junk. Business just IS, it is God-given. Goverments perform some service for business. And "we, the people" are basically not necessary, other than to control the government. Capitalist/liberal globalist CRAP!

    8. Re:Economy 101: by gmhowell · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Here I am, feeding the troll... Err... Leftwing whiner

      We are not supposed to base analyses of communism on failed models such as the Soviet model. Why then do you think it is any better to base an attack on a semi-failed model of US capitalism? Over the past 200 years, there have been many well-regarded economic analyses that show that only a few markets lead to a single player. Even in those cases, it is unlikely to last except when there is government support. If there is government support (and the US gov't buying tons of, say, MS operating systems IS support) you aren't talking about capitalism. You are talking of a failed attempt at capitalism.

      --
      Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
    9. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all capitalist systems tend towards monopolism naturally.

      Your conclusion is only true if some barrier prevents competition. In some cases it does, and in many cases it does not.

    10. Re:Economy 101: by yourmom16 · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Government rarely removes monopolies. Look at the Microsoft Antitrust case. Government creates monopolies in many cases, however. Those monopolies not created by either government, FUD or vaporware, such as DeBeers, can only be eliminated through technological innovation. DeBeers' control of most of the worlds diamond mines won't keep them a monopoly much longer, now that synthetic diamonds are becoming feasible. The monopolies created by FUD, such as MS, are undermined when a much better competitor becomes well known enough, such as linux. Those created by government, such as the RIAA and the MPAA, can be eliminated by breaking the law(The company with patents on Motion Pictures around the turn of the century no longer exists, and the who moved to hollywood to escape the patents).

      --
      "We have got to make Stan understand the importance of voting, because he'll definitely vote for our guy." - South Park
    11. Re:Economy 101: by jmorris42 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Spoken like an ignorant leftie that has never studied economics. Monopolies are not a result of capitalism and leading capitalist thinkers have understood their danger for at a century or two. Monopolies are almost always the result of intervention in the free marketplace by the State. However many respectable (Capitalist, as opposed to Marxist) economists will grudgingly admit to the State having both the power and the responsibility to break up Monopolies when they appear.

      Personally I'm more Libertarian than that. I hold that the only power the State should have over monopolies is to correct it's mistake that lead to it. For example in Microsoft's case the government should adopt a pure POSIX requirement in government purchasing. That and an open document interchange format would level the playing field without undue meddling in the marketplace. All the state would be doing is ceasing to assist the monopolist by using it's influence over it's subjects[1] to enforce the monopoly.

      [1] Free people are citizens, unfree ones are subjects. We stopped being a Republic over a century ago.

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    12. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Uh, it was government intervention that caused microsoft in the first place, when the government decided, against the advice of many lawyers and computer scientists of the time, to grant copyrights (a form of government-enforced monopoly) to software producers in 1976.

      That's right kids, Microsoft's monopoly is, and has always been, propped up by corrupt government.

    13. Re:Economy 101: by nnnneedles · · Score: 3, Insightful
      "Everything is the states fault".

      Spoken like a true ignorant rightie.

      Blaming the MS monopoly or other monopolies for that matter (in Sweden there is a sugar monopoly) on the state, is so dumb my eyes hurt.

      --
      Will code a sig generator for food
    14. Re:Economy 101: by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. Though, I can't help wondering how things would have panned out had the US government decided to make computer software explicitly non-copyrightable.

      Yet, even if you imagine a world without Microsoft {or at least with Microsoft being very different} and without SCO trying to claim ownership of other people's code, GNU/Linux as we know it today would not exist. Both projects were independent attempts on a genuinely free operating system {GNU was supposed to have its own kernel, called The Hurd; Linux was originally going to be called Freax and was just meant to be a replacement for the Minix kernel, for experimental / educational use.}

      Does anyone know if there is / was any country in the world where software is / was non-copyrightable and where there are / were some reasonable number of computer hobbyists? If so, what happened? The whole home computer "scene" of the late 70s/early 80s seemed to me to be very much a USA thing, though this no doubt was due in part to the Mainstream Media.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    15. Re:Economy 101: by torpor · · Score: 1

      Capitalism is based on scarcity, manufactured and otherwise. Making something seem 'risky' is a good way to make it scarce, and thus sell whatever supply you have of it for a lot of money.

      This system was brought to you by the same people who gave you the 'war is the only way' doctrine, the 'social systems are all flawed' righteousness of right-wing religion, and the cookie jar.

      --
      ; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
    16. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hmmm... Free Market Monopolies (as opposed to legal Monopolies where the state simply takes the entire field to himself) are not almost always the result of state intervention.
      Free Market Monopolies can result from privatisation of previous state monopolies, but they, too are a result of the internal dynamics of a free market, especially a far from equillibrum market with very rapid development and few established structures, like the software market was and still is.

      The state now has first the task to serve the citizens. We find that letting the market organize itself is often an excellent way to do that.
      Thus often what is good for the market is good for the people.
      But that is only often and not always. In case of monopolies this breaks down. And in many many other cases as well.
      The principle guideline of state action is to benefit the people. The state represents the people and their interessts.

      Now for your abusive usage of the term freedom. Sure it's nice to be free from goverment intervention. And to be free from healthcare if you can't afford it, and to be free from any social net if the market doesn't like your skills.
      And does the market make you free to do the job you are best at? That suits you? Does the free market make you free as an individual to become a good human being by whatever meassure you wish to apply?
      Or does the free market just make you a good subject to it's own self regulatory forces which produce an ideal balanced state.... ideal and bvalanced by it's internal unhuman (literaly) logic?

      Your conception of freedom is skewed and naive. Taking bread from the guys in the palace and giving it to the guy who starves on the street, doesn't decrease any relevant freedom of the former and frees the later of hunger.

      Freedom is a balance. There are many systems and forces limiting our development as free humans. a to strong state does, and a too strong market does as well.
      Bith the state and the market are essentially inhuman as they are essentially automated procedures. They are the inhuman structures of our society, and those need to be kept at bay, used against each other to maximize our human freedom.

      True Freedom then is the absence of both, a free market and a state.
      And that is of course communism as Marx originaly formulated it.
      What travesty to try to achieve this utopia by increasing the state, through planned economy!

    17. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Greetings fellow communist!

    18. Re:Economy 101: by bjhonermann · · Score: 1

      "For example in Microsoft's case the government should adopt a pure POSIX requirement in government purchasing."

      The problem with this idea is that the judicial branch in the U.S. has no power over the purchasing practices of the other branches of government. That is a legislative matter that no judges would be willing to cross and, even if they did, would be easily overturned as unconstitutional.

    19. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite

      -John Kenneth Galbraith

    20. Re:Economy 101: by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      > Spoken like a true ignorant rightie.

      You kids and your one dimensional political ideas. Of course it isn't ALL your fault, you are a product of public education. I'm a libertarian, which is about as far from a rightwinger as it is from socialism.

      And yes I do blame the meddling of the State in the Free Market for monopolies. Let us examine your example of a sugar monopoly in Sweden. I live in Louisiana and know all about government intervention in the sugar business. We take money at gunpoint from our citizens and use it to subsidize our local sugar farmers and enforce import quotas so that we can all pay more for sugar... somehow this is explained as 'good for us.' Damned if I can see how though. Force South American sugar farmers out of business, encourage them to turn back to the real cash crop of the region (cocoa leaves) so we can spend even more money burning them out in the name of fighting the 'Drug War'. And of course we pay out the butt for a product that should by all rights be cheap and plentiful.

      If there is a sugar monopoly in Sweden it must be government imposed, otherwise the Swedes would simply import as much sugar as they pleased from those same South America sugar farmers at market prices. This would cause any local cartel to quickly lose any monopolistic pricing power. There would also be little barrier to entry for an aspiring sugar farmer unless the power of the State forbids it. (We have plenty of examples of that sort of crap here in the 'land of the free'.)

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    21. Re:Economy 101: by jmorris42 · · Score: 1

      It is clear you don't have a clue what the word "Freedom" actually means, and neither did the Jr. Socialists who modded you up. But on the off chance that less committed leftists are also still reading.....

      > Free Market Monopolies can result from privatisation of previous
      > state monopolies,

      And this isn't caused by the State? Privatizing a socialist economy (or segment thereof) is difficult. It can be easily botched if attempted by officials who lack any understanding of how a Free Market actually operates. For a current example examine the bungling of the California electrical grid's transition from state owned monopoly to planned economy tarted up for public consumption as a free market.

      An example of a more successful transition was the AT&T breakup. It allowed unlimited participation by competitors for the long distance business and allowed a large degree of real freedom from day one. The result was a couple of years of confusion followed by the current situation where flat rate long distance is now offered as an option to most Americans. Even the local loop monopoly is rapidly eroding under pressure from wireless, the CLECs and even cable and power companies in some areas.

      > Now for your abusive usage of the term freedom. Sure it's nice to be
      > free from goverment intervention. And to be free from healthcare if
      > you can't afford it, and to be free from any social net if the market
      > doesn't like your skills.

      It would be a wonderful world indeed! For we would be FREE! Freedom is just that, free. Free to succeed or fail. Free to crawl into a gutter with a bottle of Mad Dog or shake the foundations of the world with your drive and determination and then to reap the rewards thereof. You can't be truly free if the State claims the right to make decisions for you.

      You want healthcare, buy insurance or pay as you go. Can't afford the gold plated policy, buy the HMO; it is still far better care than 90% of the world's population gets. And if we removed the government from healthcare it would be a damned lot more affordable anyway.

      As for getting a job, that is your own responsibility, not mine. Choose poorly and you might end up flipping burgers while you acquire different skills, but why is that my responsibility?

      But in the end I object to the unwritten assumption behind that bilge you just spouted. It assumes that the average American is a selfish, uncaring bastard and that therefore enlightened folk like yourselves must assume the mantle of wise and benevolent protector and pass down commandments from on high, for our own good. That you claim the right to determine what is best for us, to the right of first claim on the produce of our labors and to redistribute that income according to your own more enlightened notions. That without your guidance we would be but brute savages, living in a dystopic hell. I have news for you, man was a lot kinder to his fellow man before the welfare state. Poverty rates were as low or lower, families were intact and charitable giving was a lot more common before the kind and loving State started raking off far more than the 10% that God (read as the Church) thought was the most He could get away with.

      > Your conception of freedom is skewed and naive. Taking bread from
      > the guys in the palace and giving it to the guy who starves on the
      > street, doesn't decrease any relevant freedom of the former and
      > frees the later of hunger.

      We don't have guys in a palace here. So I must assume you are referring to the 'evil rich'. Yes, taking their bread against their will is the most wicked thing a State can ever do. It means the plebs have decided to vote themselves bread and circuses and the elected officials have forsaken their oaths of office. One of the cornerstones of Freedom in the western tradition is the Right to Property. You can't revoke that Right for some without it ceasing to be a Right for all, instead becoming a privledge,

      --
      Democrat delenda est
    22. Re:Economy 101: by 4of12 · · Score: 1

      Government intervention is necessary to remove corruptions like monopolization from the system.

      Exactly.

      Broad competition under capitalism works quite well.

      It's when someone starts to "win" too much and uses their weight to unfairly crush competitors that otherwise could contribute more to society's overall well-being.

      We've never had true free enterprise and people wouldn't like it if we did - we'd end up with a pyramid in which the self-interest of "one" would be met by system supported by "all but one".

      Empirically, regulated capitalism has worked pretty well compared with alternatives.

      But there are still challenges, not just with monopolies in specific market sectors, and with government corruption, but also with regard to information and the media.

      Most of "we, the people" live in a haze, acting on emotion and instinct, because it is beneficial to some interests that we do.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    23. Re:Economy 101: by 4of12 · · Score: 1

      Monopolies are almost always the result of intervention in the free marketplace by the State.

      What kind of interventions by the State led to Standard Oil and U.S. Steel?

      It seems to me that any logical businessman would seek monopoly and its benefits if he were in a completely laissez-faire situation. The State needn't lift a finger.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
    24. Re:Economy 101: by ChaosDiscord · · Score: 1
      Blaming the MS monopoly or other monopolies for that matter (in Sweden there is a sugar monopoly) on the state, is so dumb my eyes hurt.

      Actually, I can see a valid point to the argument.

      I've never seen a modern monopoly that didn't arise from government intervention.

      Take Microsoft. Without the government granted monopoly to exclusively distribute copies of works they've created, their monopoly would evaporate overnight. Of course, removing that monpoly would be eliminating copyright, which people might object to.

      Both extreme ends of the spectrum (pure capitalism, and pure government run ecomonies) "work" for suitable definitions of work. But for real people neither extreme is really a good idea.

    25. Re:Economy 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      *Sigh*
      I don't know where your anger comes from. Nowhere did I speak of "selfish Americans" or the "evil rich" or some such nonsense.

      "It is clear you don't have a clue what the word "Freedom" actually means"

      *g* This is honestly quite amusing. (Actually it's rather LoL).

      As for your freedom, I don't want it. I have other conceptions of freedom, as do many others. That what you call and claim it's absolute, your own naive unrealistic abstract conception of "freedom", is nothing I care about. It's not a human freedom to me.
      An empty concept for an empty live.

      I care much more for the freedoms that Camus, Nietzsche and Dennett constructed. Beautifull fruitfull freedoms. Empowering and enriching. Each vastly different, Dennett building from science, Nietzsche against science, Camus outside of science. Not the same freedoms, but here, and there's an irony in that, you are free to chose which concept you prefer to award with such a high and impressive word as: freedom.

  2. Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Flamebait
    That said, open-source is no panacea, and there are many areas where proprietary products are still far superior.

    I wish the zealots would at least concede that much before blasting the horrible , horrible, evil, closed, proprietary software.

    1. Re: Notice this Zealots by Black+Parrot · · Score: 5, Funny


      > > That said, open-source is no panacea, and there are many areas where proprietary products are still far superior.

      > I wish the zealots would at least concede that much before blasting the horrible , horrible, evil, closed, proprietary software.

      OK, consider it conceded. Now can we please get on with the blasting?

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    2. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The usual excuse given is that the software is "good enough" (with a few exceptions, like Apache, OpenSSH, and the like). Of course, most is shite produced by 14 year olds who may suddenly stop supporting their project.

      Take OpenOffice.Org for instance. It's not nearly as good as MS office, by miles. It doesn't even come close to WordPerfect office, which is affordable. "Sure, it can't print, but who needs anything but text printing in courier 8 point font, right??"

    3. Re:Notice this Zealots by aussersterne · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there are many areas where proprietary products are still far superior

      Yes, but considering the progress of OSS over the last decade, given time and continued success this will soon no longer be the case. It is only a matter of time before OSS dominates in 90% of market niches.

      That's what Microsoft is afraid of: the democratization of computing. Everyone must have access to the law; that is what the corrupt fear. In the same way, everyone must have access to software and information; that is what the software companies and IP cartels fear.

      --
      STOP . AMERICA . NOW
    4. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but considering the progress of OSS over the last decade

      Consider the progress of Microsoft over the last decade! Ten years ago Windows 95 didn't exist.

    5. Re:Notice this Zealots by Tim+Doran · · Score: 3, Insightful

      hmm... I question your 90% number. Proprietary software tends to drive focus where the money is. OSS tends to drive focus where the work is interesting.

      So while OSS continues to make great inroads in the OS space, for example (lots of interesting work there), it's hard to picture a loose collection of programmers building a serious contender to SAP or PeopleSoft's product set. They're not interesting enough projects to inspire passion in peoples' free time, at least not the the necessary degree. And there's a LOT of money/effort spent on this dull sort of software.

      And I don't necessarily think that's important. Consider that ESR is driven by ideology: the chief benefits of computing should be available to everyone, regardless of thier ability to pay. That means operating systems and desktop applications, the web browser in particular. It means a great web server, a selection of good-to-great databases etc, all via OSS. It means everything important to the operation of the internet, which must never be owned by a corporation.

      There will be plenty of niches still best filled by proprietary applications, and I think that's okay.

      Random musings of the very tired...

    6. Re:Notice this Zealots by Gonoff · · Score: 1

      And in 10 years most people will have forgotten it ever did.

      --
      I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    7. Re:Notice this Zealots by Black+Parrot · · Score: 2, Insightful


      > Lets not forget the biggest problem with open source software. It directly relates to the high unemployment rate currently being experienced in the tech sector. Programmers by the millions are unemployed because communists are undermining the great American capitalist economy by GIVING their software away. How do you expect to get work as a programmer when some guy next door is giving away the software for free? It's outright piracy and should be banned in the United States.

      The problem with your fantasy is that if not for FOSS the world market would have almost completely converged on Microsoft products by now, and there wouldn't be any programming jobs anyway unless you happened to land a job with Microsoft.

      And it's not like they'd need a lot of programmers once the competition was completely crushed, either.

      [Actually there will always be a need for people to program up special-purpose systems that can't be bought off the shelf or downloaded for the net, and those jobs will be there whether FOSS is available for free or not.]

      --
      Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
    8. Re:Notice this Zealots by ekuns · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I wish the zealots would at least concede that much before blasting the horrible , horrible, evil, closed, proprietary software.

      Um, are you missing the definition of the word "zealot"? By definition, zealots on either side of the issue will concede nothing! To misquite The Princess Bride, "I don't think that word means what you think it means."

      Sadly, I think it's human nature to look for a panacea. We never learn. There IS no panacea. (And all absolute statements are wrong.) I tend to advise people to be pragmatic in their zealotry. It's a good think I like to hear myself talk, because zealots don't like listen....

      Eddie the Penguin (as I'm known at work)

    9. Re:Notice this Zealots by ekuns · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Programmers by the millions are unemployed because communists are undermining the great American capitalist economy by GIVING their software away. How do you expect to get work as a programmer when some guy next door is giving away the software for free? It's outright piracy and should be banned in the United States.

      Wow. So it's Open Source that's causing the extinction of the Great American Programmer? Working at a company which is oursourcing coding to another country on the different side of a large ocean, I don't know that Open Source even registers on the radar as to why people are out of work. Please.

      And communist? You completely miss the whole business model of open source. And you seem to be under the impression that open source is something recent, when in fact it is as old as programming, the only difference is that now non-programmers are talking about it. Not to mention that name calling is the last argument of those who have no real argument.

      Besides, this "Great American Capitalist economy" is being weakened by a government that not only encourages wage deflation in the tech sector, but is actively participating is the process.

      But that's OK. You can blame open source if you just want to be angry and have something to rant about that doesn't require much thought or investigation.

    10. Re:Notice this Zealots by malfunct · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Last I checked there were plenty of people working on completely closed proprietary software projects that are not owned by Microsoft. Microsoft really doesn't complete in THAT many markets, only the ones where you need billions of copies of the software. There are lots of less common pieces of software that MS has no interest in.

      --

      "You can now flame me, I am full of love,"

    11. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wish the zealots would at least concede that much before blasting the horrible , horrible, evil, closed, proprietary software.

      Note the use of the word "zealots", like the definition of the word is "*NIX luser". Brainwashed, Microsoft 'tard.

    12. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ahhh, 'zealots'. Nothing like a little bigotry to give Slash that Usenet feel.

    13. Re:Notice this Zealots by whereiswaldo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      hmm... I question your 90% number. Proprietary software tends to drive focus where the money is. OSS tends to drive focus where the work is interesting.

      Who says development of free software has to be free? Money can potentially be made developing open source software, as long as the source code is then distributed under open source license terms.

      Say a government which has mandated OSS needs a certain application written for which there is not existing project. They pay someone to write it, and release it to the open source community. Or, ventures between governments could split the cost and share the results.

    14. Re:Notice this Zealots by gl4ss · · Score: 1

      ms is intrested in controlling those companies too, through having them developing the software they do for companies on a microsoft platform(software that's built on order, like most software is created, for various companies internal functions), so they end up getting money from both them and their customers. and in case they come up with something good enough they can just buy it then away from them, or copy it, and effectively use their own marketing engine to push their own solution, even if inferior, as the preferred one until the company who originally came up with the innovation is out of business or assimilated.

      that is, microsoft doesn't need to even compete in areas it can take over quite quickly because it can blackmail and bribe with it's other products(which works when companies are short sighted for anything, "gee, we got this very good deal to stay on ms boat, they gave us the program we needed for free!"->"oh we have to update all these and these machines to windows2003 to keep using that program").

      --
      world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
    15. Re:Notice this Zealots by Hatta · · Score: 1

      That said, open-source is no panacea, and there are many areas where proprietary products are still far superior.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    16. Re:Notice this Zealots by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Dude, YHBT. It's called "parody".

    17. Re:Notice this Zealots by ddimas · · Score: 1
      That said, open-source is no panacea, and there are many areas where proprietary products are still far superior.

      I wish the zealots would at least concede that much before blasting the horrible , horrible, evil, closed, proprietary software.

      Ok, I'll conceed that when you conceed that in mision critical and archival applications closed-source is far inferior.

    18. Re:Notice this Zealots by screenrc · · Score: 1
      It means nothing when you say that *some*
      propriatory software are superior. Of course,
      and *some* Free Software are also superior.


      The real question is how many, and by how much.


      I can also claim that some Chinese are taller
      than Americans, but again, this means nothing.
      The real question is how many, or what is the
      distribution graph.


      Assuming, of course, you can define "superior".
      That is another subject.

    19. Re:Notice this Zealots by Mooncaller · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Well your comment is silly because the comment you base it on is wrong.

      there are many areas

      There are a few areas were there exists a propiatary solution that is superior to any OSS solution.

      where proprietary products are still far superior

      Name any closed source package that is far superior to all OSS equvilents. Can't, do it. Why? 'cause there are none.

    20. Re: Notice this Zealots by Dannon · · Score: 1

      Sadly, it costs a lot of money to exercise free speech in America.

      Not that I make a habit of replying to sigs, but yours prompted me to think for a moment....

      Speaking is free. It's actively expanding your potential audience that consumes resources.

      --
      Good judgment comes from experience.
      Experience comes from bad judgment.
    21. Re:Notice this Zealots by KermitJunior · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, You make the statement:

      And all absolute statements are wrong.

      So is your statement incorrect? For it to be correct, it would have to be absolute, which is the very idea you refute.

      I think instead, it may be that the absolute exists, but we have a hard time agreeing on our choice to believe it or not.

      --
      There is a Universal Life Value Check it
    22. Re:Notice this Zealots by nsahoo · · Score: 0

      Proprietary software tends to drive focus where the money is. OSS tends to drive focus where the work is interesting.

      Software which are making money might be interesting at least for some developers to clone.

      --


      When a post becomes too insightful, it often becomes funny.
    23. Re:Notice this Zealots by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

      it's hard to picture a loose collection of programmers building a serious contender to SAP or PeopleSoft's product set.

      GNUE will be a serious contender in about 2-3 years. At that point, SAP, Oracle, MS, and PeopleSoft/JDEdwards will be charging large prices for their stuff (like they are not already). GNUE will have enough time behind it to get all the core pieces in place and dissatisfied customers from the above will start backing it like Linux is today.

      OSS is a very serious contender in nearly all aspect. Most of it is simply in the process of being developed.

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    24. Re:Notice this Zealots by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
      I think you misunderstood what is being said. It's not saying that closed source is better than open source as a model, just that a lot of the software is not sufficiently developed.

      Take MySQL. It's currently behind Oracle/SQL because it doesn't have a whole bunch of features of those databases. Primarily: Stored Procedures. When it gets that (which is not far away), a whole chunk of users (who do not currently) will look at MySQL.

    25. Re:Notice this Zealots by dwgranth · · Score: 1

      So while OSS continues to make great inroads in the OS space, for example (lots of interesting work there), it's hard to picture a loose collection of programmers building a serious contender to SAP or PeopleSoft's product set.

      Actually GNUe is meant to do just that... now I dont know how you can compare it to SAP.. but I guess we'll see... checkem out at Their website

    26. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Consider that ESR is driven by ideology: the chief benefits of computing should be available to everyone, regardless of thier ability to pay.
      Just to clarify... no, he isn't. ESR supports open source because it's a nice way to make software. That OSS is available to everyone for free is just a side effect of the chosen development method.
    27. Re:Notice this Zealots by ekuns · · Score: 1

      Hmmm, You make the statement:
      And all absolute statements are wrong.
      So is your statement incorrect? For it to be correct, it would have to be absolute, which is the very idea you refute.
      I think instead, it may be that the absolute exists, but we have a hard time agreeing on our choice to believe it or not.

      Well, I was, in a silly way, saying that we need to be cautious about ANY absolute statement. I enjoy apparent contradictions. Life generally has fewer absolutes than people believe. It's easier to believe an absolute simply because it's less complicated. But the real world is complicated. Real moral situations are complicated. Those who paint the world with absolutist ideas -- that is, zealots -- are (generally speaking) wrong. It doesn't matter what side of the issue, any issue, they are on.

      To summarize that whole paragraph (and more that I could say on the subject of zealotry) I used the silly route and the Western equivalent of a koan. Sort of. I ignore most posts that boil complicated situations down to simple slogans. When I don't, I use humor, knowing that I can't really expect zealots to listen or to be open to changing their mind. On anything.

      For the record, I acknowledge the existence of Pro-Linux zealots and Pro-Windows zealots and Anti-Linux zealots and Anti-Windows zealots, with some overlap between some of the groups.

      To keep this more directly on topic, governments have to balance the need to keep public information available with the need for public information to be widely accessible (useful data formats that people have affordable and fair access to) with budget considerations with, well, many other things. The best decision is one that takes all of that into account. A zealot's decision takes only a subset of factors into account.

      If I were in a government making decisions about data formats, I would only allow consideration of data formats that were publically and fully documented, thus assuring future availibility of the documents. This isn't a proprietary/open source argument. There are proprietary data formats that are fully documented. If no such formats are available then you have to make more difficult decisions. But this is only one factor among the many to be considered when one decides which software to use.

    28. Re: Notice this Zealots by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Speaking is free. It's actively expanding your potential audience that consumes resources.

      Wasn't free when Opera made that comment about cattle-ranching and beef.

      Wasn't free when that other guy (Sorry, don't remember his name) got locked in jail for saying the 7 words that you can't say on TV, on TV.

      Free speach in this country is a sham, always has been, always will be. Yeah, I know, the country is free enough for me to say that.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    29. Re:Notice this Zealots by mcrbids · · Score: 1
      hmm... I question your 90% number. Proprietary software tends to drive focus where the money is. OSS tends to drive focus where the work is interesting.

      ... And often an OSS solution simply isn't feasible. For example, why is there no Turbo Tax replacement? Nor will there be for some time... the reason is that the software is really a means of delivering the intelligence and knowledge of the accountants and lawyers that decide how the software should work. It's really software as a means of delivering a service, rather than a product in its own right.

      I'm part of a company much like this - Charterworks which automates much of the process of tracking and meeting CA educational standards.

      While I'd love to take all the credit for writing the software, the software is just the vehicle used to deliver a massive amount of information carefully entered and maintained by qualified educational professionals about the state educational standards. (of which there are thousands)

      This is a situation and product inherently incompatible with OSS - which is why I've used OSS in the construction of the software, but we certainly won't be giving away the educational standards information!

      --
      I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
    30. Re:Notice this Zealots by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Name any closed source package that is far superior to all OSS equvilents. Can't, do it. Why? 'cause there are none.

      Goldmine. I hate to have to say this about Goldmine, since it's a big piece of shit, but I've looked long and hard for an OSS solution that even comes close, and haven't found one.

      Dreamweaver, arguably. In my experience, Dreamweaver is the best at what it does, and it's a big piece of shit. Just like Goldmine. Heh.

      That said, I'm as much an OSS zealot as the next guy, and I would LOVE to see something come out that kicks the ass out of Goldmine. I've found alternatives to Dreamweaver that suit me fine, but I'm still looking for something to kick Goldmine into next year.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    31. Re:Notice this Zealots by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Take MySQL. It's currently behind Oracle/SQL because it doesn't have a whole bunch of features of those databases. Primarily: Stored Procedures. When it gets that (which is not far away), a whole chunk of users (who do not currently) will look at MySQL.

      Why aren't they looking at PostgreSQL, then? PostgreSQL has beaten Oracle in a few performance tests and regularly kicks MySQL's ass. Hell, Sourceforge runs on PostgreSQL. I realize that Oracle has a few hits over PostgreSQL, but PostgreSQL supports stored procedures. Furthermore, you can even store PHP scripts in PostgreSQL (and any arbitrary scripting language, if you really want).

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    32. Re:Notice this Zealots by bbtom · · Score: 1

      Dreamweaver can be replaced with a copy of the XHTML standards and a copy of emacs or $editor of your choice.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    33. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Consider that ESR is driven by ideology: the chief benefits of computing should be available to everyone, regardless of thier ability to pay.

      Oh? I always thought that ESR was driven by his ego. But maybe I'm wrong or you are talking about a different ESR here.
    34. Re:Notice this Zealots by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Dreamweaver can be replaced with a copy of the XHTML standards and a copy of emacs or $editor of your choice.

      Ever actually used Dreamweaver? I said it was the best at what it does, I didn't say there weren't other options. There isn't any that I've used that makes code as standard as Dreamweaver's (not that it's perfect or anything, but Dreamweaver's HTML is better than Mozilla's) and provides such an easy visual interface. Furthermore, Dreamweaver provides superior website management features that "emacs" or "$editor of your choice" probably don't have. Dreamweaver also provides a point-and-click interface to javascript programming. It could almost be called a RAD tool for javascript if it weren't for the fact that it doesn't make javascript that works in all browsers. :) But the javascript it makes is pretty good, all things considering, and usually only requires a little bit of tweaking.

      I've noticed that people who say that Dreamweaver can be easily replaced have never used it that much. It's not the easiest interface to learn, but it's a great interface after you learn it, and it really does simplify many aspects of web page creation.

      On the other hand, it really sucks because it's very unreliable. Crashes about once every 10 minutes. I usually save a lot anyway (have to save every time you ftp your page to the remote host) so I don't lose any data. Besides that, I've switched to "$editor of my choice" anyway. Got used to not having Dreamweaver on my Mandrake system. :) SO I healed that addiction.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    35. Re:Notice this Zealots by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

      > > That said, open-source is no panacea, and there are many areas where proprietary products are still far superior.

      True, but consider this: Programming is becomming easier and easier. Now I'm not going to suggest your mom is going to write the next killer office suit, but I could put together an mp3 player with off the shelf components and libraries, even though I haven't the foggiest idea how mp3 compression works.

      Point is: 1) yes open source is lagging and 2) yes, it's lagging because it's hard to get people to write the boring parts. But eventually the experts (of which I'm not) can write the fun parts while people like me can do the grunt work of piecing it all together :). It's like putting a distro together but on a different scale.

      --
      Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
    36. Re:Notice this Zealots by pirhana · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You dont understand the basic idea behind these goverments shift. They are going after Free/Open source softwares not just because they find it as the "best tool for the job". Instead many of them being democratic governments are going after TRANSEPRANCY and ACCOUNTABILITY. Proprietery software are not transperant inherently. Nobody knows what is there inside (may be spyware , backdoors... anything could be there). Any government which belives its actions should be transperant to the public can't use proprietory software for that reason alone. And this is the main reason why "zealots" demand for mandatory free software usage in government.

    37. Re:Notice this Zealots by bbtom · · Score: 1

      Yes, used it for about 4 years doing corporate stuff (a few intranets and websites). I used it a fair bit helping a mate out with an ASP+Access powered Ultradev project (a nightmare). I also used it on my website - and it was a right royal pain in the ass.

      Then I got my act together and downloaded an open source blogging / content management system and I just customise it for my purposes.

      I've still got version 4 kicking about on my Mac, but I find it more convenient just to open BBEdit or an editor (I use pico and emacs in equal amounts depending on the task) and brew up either some HTML or PHP.

      --
      catch (HumourFailureException e) { e.user.send("You, sir, are a humourless idiot."); }
    38. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In many respects, that depends on perspective and experience.

      One of the canonical examples is Microsoft Office software, which is good at what it does.

      Many years ago, I thought something similar was what I needed, but with experience and learning to create and use more powerful tools, I realize that things like a WYSIWYG word processor are clunky and inconvenient as concepts, and I'm much better off using entirely different types of tools.

      Proprietary software is probably good at giving inexperience people what they think they need, but as for providing powerful tools for someone who is more demanding...

    39. Re:Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed the products are superior. They have benefitted from a large investment of time and money.

      But here comes the blasting.

      In my experience, proprietary software is about limiting the user. Even if it is not on purpose, the effect is the same. What if it does this but not that? I wait for the next version, or never. What if the vendor disappears? I have lost my investment. What if I have a bunch of data created by this software? It is usually locked in.

      Free software is much better in these regards. I mean free, open, not free costs nothing.

      Derek

    40. Re:Notice this Zealots by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
      I'm designing a product related to Amazon Web Services, and intend it to be a serious piece of work that people can embed into web sites.

      It's also going to be Open Source. And my reasons are more than political.

      Firstly, I can get it used by many thousands of people straight off. Bug notifications and fixes will come in. Secondly, plenty of people will use it. Thirdly, whilst people CAN view and change the code, a lot of people would rather people with experience did it. Fourthly, people often want support in case something goes wrong with the software.

    41. Re:Notice this Zealots by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
      I don't personally have a problem with Closed source software, it's closed standards I really object to.

      I recently had to do a little job to move some text in an Adobe Postscript file sent by a client. Unfortunately, they hadn't made it very nice (think it was generated by a package), and it took some time to work out, but I worked out an algorithm and got it to work.

      Could I do that with a Word Document? Well, I could as long as I had Office running on the server, which IIRC isn't allowed.

    42. Re:Notice this Zealots by snolan · · Score: 1
      So while OSS continues to make great inroads in the OS space, for example (lots of interesting work there), it's hard to picture a loose collection of programmers building a serious contender to SAP or PeopleSoft's product set. They're not interesting enough projects to inspire passion in peoples' free time, at least not the the necessary degree. And there's a LOT of money/effort spent on this dull sort of software.

      Very good point, but there is a solution - governments (and all paying customers) should demand that they have a right to view the source for themselves - after signing non-disclosures that they will not rip it off. The obvious problem with this solution is that the greedy corporations will cry that they might get ripped off by the same people they've be ripping off for a decade... sigh.

      I really do hope that someday all publically funded agencies will learn to demand "source visible" software products, and mostly use open source except for those few areas where open source has not solved the problem adequately yet.

    43. Re:Notice this Zealots by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Don't get me started on Dreamweaver. It produces lousy code. For a start, it has "trendy" lower case tags. Caps are there for a reason - sticks out better amongst a page of mainly lower case text than when using an editor such as pico {it's much easier to correct a minor spelling mistake this way ..... just edit it right there on the server}. I don't like lower case tags for this reason. Secondly, it puts in <font> tags all over the place, often with nothing between them, rather than creating a proper style sheet. Thirdly, its indentation is trendy but again it makes for unnecessary bandwidth consumption, and it makes it awkward to link in PHP code. I guess some of that is due to my personal stubbornness over my personal indenting style, but that's the way I like it ..... I like my <? hard up against the margin, and it really spoils the look when a bit of PHP has to go inside a table cell.

      Dreamweaver is like an accessory that fits onto a guitar and allows you to fret and strum the strings using piano-style keys. It makes an attempt to put a particular kind of user interface on a task which is basically incompatible with that user interface. In the end, the functionality {and especially behind the scenes where only a few people will ever see it - who's ever going to complain about empty tag pairs, unless they either read HTML or are on a slow line, but they are still a problem - put enough feathers in a sack and eventually it will weigh a ton} is being dictated by the UI.

      IMHO there is too much emphasis on having a point-and-click, "you don't need to worry about what goes on under the bonnet" interface. It's a cop-out for people who are afraid to learn and want to be proud of their ignorance. Writing text in English with a fountain pen is difficult and non-intuitive. But people manage to learn to do it and don't think twice about it. I think it is doing people a disservice to say that they could never learn a bit more about the internals of HTML. {Of course, learn HTML and you might not need Dreamweaver. Cultivating ignorance certainly benefits Macromedia here.} That's why I am sure that any open source replacement for Dreamweaver would be open to exactly the same criticisms. If any kind of programming was really that easy then why do they need a human to do it? Give me gFTP and kate .....

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    44. Re:Notice this Zealots by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      MySQL is meant to be a subset of the full SQL system, and it is optimised for speed and reliability. You send it a query and it chucks out answers, and it chucks 'em out bloody fast. Whatever it doesn't do, you probably won't miss but you can emulate it anyway through external scripting.

      For example, MySQL's wildcards are dire, just _ to match /./ and % to match /.*/. Since the usual way to access MySQL is via a Perl / PHP / Python script, it's reasonable to suppose the scripting language will have proper regular expression handling abilities. Depending on the overbreadth of your MySQL query compared to the query you would have really liked to have done, you might want to select just the primary key and the field to be matched against your complex wildcard, build up an array of usable keys and proceed from there selecting one record at a time, or select * and only display matches. Therein lies the tradeoff - rather than have MySQL implement full regexp matching and potentially slow down access when not actually using it, you're expected to use a bit of discretion for yourself.

      If you want the full works with SQL, try PostgreSQL. It has loads of stuff you'll probably never use ..... but MySQL is fine if all you want to do is SELECT `name`,`address`,`phone` FROM `people` WHERE `sex`="F" && `skint`="N" LIMIT 1 and so forth.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    45. Re: Notice this Zealots by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A simple test to determine the limits of free speech in the USA:

      Stand on the lawn outside the White House and shout, "I have a gun and I mean to kill the President".

      Explain to anyone who responds to this that you were just exercising your right to free speech.

    46. Re:Notice this Zealots by timrichardson · · Score: 1

      No. Although we do not fully understand it yet, open source probably will do better in mass infrastructure applications rather than niches. Linux is interesting as an enterprise OS because of the enormous work contributed to it by enterprises that do not see much competitive advantage in proprietary operating systems. It is like the lighting industry sharing investments in glass furnaces; there is really not much added value in the glass part of a light bulb.
      I think the conclusion is that open source software is by nature not likely to be very innovative, at least not where innovation requires investment and delivers competitive advantage to the investor. Why would an owner of capital outsource competitive advantage? That is not rational.

      However, as the Economist article points out, it is precisely the important role that IT infrastructure plays that governments and societies should demand an open alternative, just like most of our roads are publically owned.

    47. Re:Notice this Zealots by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1
      Just something i must must must point out.

      Don't get me started on Dreamweaver. It produces lousy code. For a start, it has "trendy" lower case tags. Caps are there for a reason

      Capitals are not there for a reason, and they go against the xhtml1.0 standard. Use uppercase tags and you are breaking the standards that so many people on slashdot want you to adhere to.

    48. Re:Notice this Zealots by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Yeah, someone must be feeling reeeeeeally pleased with themself, having saved so many bytes of code in every browser by eliminating the "unnecessary" characters " & 0x5F" from at least two places in their source code, thereby reducing the world's Software Bloat by a measurable amount.

      If someone genuinely believes that <li>, <lI>, <Li>, and <LI> really need to be interpreted differently, they're an asswipe.

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    49. Re:Notice this Zealots by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1

      All I'm saying is that it's not where Oracle is yet, but based on what the MySQL website says, things like Stored Procedures are planned.

    50. Re:Notice this Zealots by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      Um, I wasn't slagging MySQL off ..... IMHO there's nothing wrong with omitting features dependent on probability of usefulness. But if implementing some feature you're not going to use very often would slow down all the features you do use often, then you have to question whether it might not be better to omit that feature - then your next criterion for decision-making would be whether or not that feature can be lived without. If all you want a car for is picking up a bit of shopping, you would be better off with a Fiesta or a Corsa than a Ferrari or a Rolls-Royce. But that same little runabout might not be the best choice for winning megametre endurance races .....

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    51. Re:Notice this Zealots by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
      That's true, and for many apps, MySQL does the job excellently.

      I don't think I'd run a major online financial system with it, but for a lot of database applications, it is more than good enough for the job.

    52. Re:Notice this Zealots by FroMan · · Score: 1

      Actually, the reason you can point to more cases where OSS software is good is because that is the software you use. You know what, it is commodity software.

      Word processors, operating systems, web browsers, even web servers and databases, and the like are commodity. You would be hard pressed to find a useful machine without atleast one or two of the above on someone's desk.

      However, the software that I get paid to develop at my current and previous jobs is not commodity software. At my last job we developed software for specialized integrated test systems (fancy name for testing stuff while trying to break them). There are very few companies in the market for what we did, and as such to stay ahead of the competition we kept our systems closed. If we were to do the development in an OSS fashion our competition would easily be able to copy our work and put us out of business.

      Same with where I am working now. Our field is relatively small in the banking industry. It is software that a very few home users or other types of businesses would need, but the ones that need it need it desperately. So again, OSS would not fill this niche as there is simpley not a large enough community to sustain it.

      Another field that OSS does not compete well in is games. Game engines may work as OSS, as there are a number of games that use OSS engines. However, the specialization and content of games does not lend itself well to the OSS. For roleplaying games you do not want to create content to scratch your itch of wanting to play an RPG, since you know the whole storyline in advance. 3d shooters may work, but content oriented games will probably fail in the OSS market.

      --
      Norris/Palin 2012
      Fact: We deserve leaders who can kick your ass and field dress your carcass.
  3. Interesting by Bame+Flait · · Score: 5, Informative

    Looks like the Department of Defense has actuallygiven the nodto open source - or at least recognized its existence.

  4. Think about the probelms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Some foreign national cyber-terrorist could include malicious code in our govermental code. Think of the security implications. Plus, we'd be indirectly supporting the effort of another, possibly communist country. The majority of Microsoft's money comes from the US government, their biggest client. To paraphrase Harry S. Truman, "What's good for Microsoft is good for the United States."

    1. Re:Think about the probelms by Agent+Deepshit · · Score: 5, Funny

      Darrell McBride, we know thats you...Quit it.

    2. Re:Think about the probelms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope this was a tongue in cheek comment!

    3. Re:Think about the probelms by EzInKy · · Score: 1

      Some foreign national cyber-terrorist could include malicious code in our govermental code.

      Seems to me the government would be much more likely to spot the malicious code if the source was open.

      --
      Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.
    4. Re:Think about the probelms by WindBourne · · Score: 1

      Knowing that I will get modded as a troll, it still needs to be said.
      With MS's high regard for general security, it is rather obvious as to how they are taking to road to internal security. They are like any other company and are hiring the best coder and not worrying so much about doing a top secret clearence check (at about 80K / US person and greater than 100K if foreign).
      That means that anbody who wishes to introduce back doors can do so, if clever about it and working in a team. Unfortuntly,because it is closed source, we can not check for trojans or any other malisous code. MS has already shipped severl times infected programs to OEMS. The OEMS blamed MS and MS blamed the OEM; what else is new?

      --
      I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    5. Re:Think about the probelms by DataCannibal · · Score: 1

      I think you missed "islamic" out of your selection of labels. I know it's really quite relaxing to switch your brain off sometimes, this is Slashdot after all, but it's not Sunday yet.

      --
      No but, yeah but, no but...
  5. Open the document formats by Lips · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't mind if govt uses open source or not. The best product for the situation should be used. What I do want do see is "open" document formats to allow them to switch software providers easily.

    1. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? Such capabilities already exist (i.e., plain text, HTML, and PDF). The usual example is Word's DOC. So what if it's closed? It's a trade secret. If you want to exchange a document with someone else, then save it in an alternate format (I'm looking at Word's file->save box now, and it let's me choose from 22 file formats, none of which include PDF, either.)

    2. Re:Open the document formats by trompete · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's all good for us as end-users and customers, but an open documents format would be suicide for company like Microsoft.
      I'm glad that Opera, Mozilla...etc,etc,etc and Apache server kept Microsoft from controlling the HTML standards completely!!

    3. Re:Open the document formats by krymsin01 · · Score: 1

      I don't really think an open document standard would be that bad for Microsoft. They survived the days when everyone used plain ascii text files. They are surviving OpenOffice and all other opensource programs that have reverse engineered their formats.

      --
      stuff
    4. Re:Open the document formats by trompete · · Score: 1

      Yes, they are reverse engineering the formats, but they are never 100% accurate. I use special formatting on my resume (doc format) that never displays correctly on StarOffice and OpenOffice. If the format were published, it would be perfected of course, but why would Microsoft want it to work on other software suites?

    5. Re:Open the document formats by NineNine · · Score: 1

      I'm glad that Opera, Mozilla...etc,etc,etc and Apache server kept Microsoft from controlling the HTML standards completely!!

      Apache, maybe (although I have no idea what Apache has to do with HTML), but Opera and Mozilla? Are you fucking kidding? With something along the lines of 3% usage, how can you say they've had *anything* to do with influencing standards? That's insane.

    6. Re:Open the document formats by trompete · · Score: 1

      Apache runs 2/3 of the HTTP servers on the internet. Check out their site or look at netcraft to see the facts. Microsoft is the minority when it comes to web servers; therefore, open standards can still exist.
      As far as the other browsers being such a small part of the market, their share will only grow as more people use Linux and OS X. Microsoft can make IE as proprietary as they want, but it won't matter at all if Apache is delivering the content.

    7. Re:Open the document formats by koa · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Actually, they did try to mung up the HTML standard. But not very sucessfully. Ever see "This page best viewed with MS IE v4.5 or better" ??

      They incorporated all sorts of browser specific code that only works on IE in the hopes that they could curtail the HTML standard into their own bastardised version of it.

      Thanks to Mozilla, Opera, Konqueror we didnt completely go down that road.

      --
      ....move along....nothing to see here....
    8. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well it would actually make sence for microsoft to concede into a let's all get along attitude in order to avoid the contractors and such needing to convert to another type of software to do business with an agency that has taken an alternative route.

      this would allow those that don't do opensource (or whatever) to ramina at the call of microsoft.

      i can see some government agency using linux and open office and haveing every agency it interacts with convert from microsoft office just to get things redily compatible. without a smooth interaction of siletypes and stuff this could get verry expensive for microsoft and cascade into even bigger problems for them.

    9. Re:Open the document formats by FireBreathingDog · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think what the guy was saying re: although I have no idea what Apache has to do with HTML was that Apache, as an HTTP server, has nothing to do with HTML, the document format, in the same way that Apache has nothing to do with the GIF format, the JPEG format, or any other MIME type (nothing to do other than serve it up, that is).

    10. Re:Open the document formats by ekuns · · Score: 3, Insightful

      an open documents format would be suicide for company like Microsoft.

      In the short term, Microsoft generates lock-in and better profits with their proprietary file formats. In the long run, they are their worst enemy. Notice that PDF, as a format, is 100% backward compatible in that you can load EVERY PDF document ever made with current generation PDF viewers. With Word, there are a significant number of documents from old versions of the software that will not load in current versions.

      Companies and governments are starting to notice the cost of having to convert every single document to a newer format every couple years. Or the alternative cost of losing history and having old documents become unreadable. Where I work we've begun to have problems with all kinds of proprietary file formats (for making ASICs for example) where the company has gone out of business. I don't have confidence in code escrow schemes as a proprietary alternative.

      The issue of file formats is a real one.

    11. Re:Open the document formats by Teflik · · Score: 1

      Is this why, when editing a document in 'vi' versus 'notepad', I get all those CR/LF inconsistancies? Because Microsoft plays fair with such simple open standards as ASCII text?

    12. Re:Open the document formats by stwrtpj · · Score: 4, Insightful
      What I do want do see is "open" document formats to allow them to switch software providers easily.

      In another post, I stated that I did not want to see a mandate of open source software, but a mandate that I could live with and see the benefits of would be exactly this, a mandate that document standards (and, I would add, communications standards) be open.

      Unlike the mandate of open source, a mandate of open standards would not be open to the risk of a legally enforced monopoly. Quite the contrary, it would make it much more difficult for a monopoly to be established. Anyone could implement the standard, whether proprietary or open source. Then the consumer could be left with a clear choice. With no vendor lock-in, the playing field would be truly level.

      --
      Karma: Frotzed (mostly due to the Frobozz Magic Karma Company)
    13. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      open it in wordpad, then.

    14. Re:Open the document formats by krymsin01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Personaly, I think that eventualy the demands of interconnectivity between diverse networks will force it to happen. I think what we are about to see in the next ten years is a fracturing of the software world, but the data fromats are going to become increasingly homogenized to the make up for the difference in software preference.

      Just speculation, though.

      --
      stuff
    15. Re:Open the document formats by soloport · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apache runs 2/3 of the HTTP servers on the internet.

      No, Apache is not content-centric. In simple terms, it's a "file fetcher". It speaks HTTP. Apache delivers what ever "content" it is requested to [GET | POST | PUT] -- if it deems it a legitimate request.

      What has helped keep the Internet out of monopolistic harm's way has been the influence of multiple, larger forces: AOL/Time/Warner, educational institutions, govenment organizations, standards groups, etc.

      Microsoft may be the largest software entity in terms of revenue, but it is not the largest entity in terms of influence.

      Thank the gods for that!

    16. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For a 4-digit user ID, you're a fucking idiot.

      DOS/Windows = CR+LF
      UNIX = LF
      Mac = CR

    17. Re:Open the document formats by Red+Avenger · · Score: 1

      Are you nuts? Netscape invented the special tags to do stuff! If you had ever developed web pages you would understand just how dumb you just sounded. I can't believe you got modded as insightful. See the DOM as an example of taking what MS made and not going down the Netscape lane to lunacy. Peace, RedAvenger

    18. Re:Open the document formats by koa · · Score: 2

      I really don't see your point of view on this one. I'm not necisarily disagreeing with you though. I'd just like you to clarify your point.

      See the DOM as an example of taking what MS made and not going down the Netscape lane to lunacy

      This sentence doesnt make a whole lot of sense...

      Could you please define "going down the Netscape lane to lunacy" please?

      --
      ....move along....nothing to see here....
    19. Re:Open the document formats by alex_ant · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      ..types the filthy bearded unix slob who's home on a saturday night because he can't figure out why women always reject him when he tries to ask them out in grammatically correct perl

    20. Re:Open the document formats by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      Microsoft may be the largest software entity in terms of revenue, but it is not the largest entity in terms of influence.

      IBM's revenue for the third quarter of 2003 was $19.8-billion. Microsoft's annual revenue is around $25-billion, so it's definitely not the market player with the largest revenue. However, I think it does have a larger amount of profits than IBM does. Use your own judgement on whether consumers are being shafted by Microsoft.

    21. Re:Open the document formats by screenrc · · Score: 1

      We have been through this before. "The best
      tool for the job" is usually not what is desirable.
      Do you always buy the Ferari when you need a
      car, do you buy what makes sense? Free Software
      can make lots of sense if you don't want to
      become a bitch to your suplier, and Free Software
      can make sense if it means spending less money.
      The "best tool for the job" is usually never
      makes sense.

    22. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's all good for us as end-users and customers, but an open documents format would be suicide for company like Microsoft

      So what's the down side?

    23. Re:Open the document formats by yuri+benjamin · · Score: 1

      I don't mind if govt uses open source or not. The best product for the situation should be used. What I do want do see is "open" document formats to allow them to switch software providers easily.

      Open document formats and open communication protocols.
      Basically, I want to see my govt use standards that will allow me to interact with their systems using the platform of my choice.

      Having already built my own PCs at home and going for the cheaper OS alternative, I'd have to fork out for a full version of Microsoft Windows(tm) and a full version of Microsoft Office(tm) if the govt decided to go that way.
      And since I live in NZ, that would be money going overseas.

      I'm glad that govts are realising this.

      --
      You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
    24. Re:Open the document formats by soloport · · Score: 1

      IBM is largely seen as a hardware house; Microsoft a softie (i.e. thus the reference to "software entity").

    25. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's all good for us as end-users and customers, but an open documents format would be suicide for company like Microsoft.

      No, then they'd just have to compete on price, features, and support like everyone else. Admittedly it may be difficult for them, but it shouldn't be suicide.

    26. Re:Open the document formats by leviramsey · · Score: 1

      Do you remember the late 90's?

      Netscape started the trend of making extensions to HTML which only their browser supported. It was those very extensions that led to 90% marketshare.

      Microsoft was, as far as web standards are concerned, the white knight. They were the ones who submitted CSS to the W3C (and had the first semi-working implementations circa IE3). They were the ones who were pushing open web standards.

      Only when IE began really eating Netscape's share (which didn't occur until long after IE4 was bundled with Win98, btw) did Netscape realize that adhering to standards was a good thing.

    27. Re:Open the document formats by Tony-A · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Where I work we've begun to have problems with all kinds of proprietary file formats (for making ASICs for example) where the company has gone out of business. I don't have confidence in code escrow schemes as a proprietary alternative.

      The only way to avoid that mess is real live competition. Code escrow is essentially dead competition with a bunch of buts and maybes thrown in.

      Note that PDF is not just Adobe. There's also ghostscript and maybe others. This makes PDF a safe format to store stuff in so that you can recover it at some much later point in time. It will be better and easier to recover if Adobe is still around, but regardless of Adobe's survival and anything that Adobe does or does not do, those documents will still be readable 10, 20, 50 years from now.

      AutoDesk is much the same in that ALL of any .dwg (very proprietary format) can be exported to .dxf (very open format). (The .dxf format has been open longer than most /.ers have been alive;) Some CAD programs used to use .dxf for a file format. Those drawings would be readable by any current AutoCAD.

    28. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      CR/LF predates UNIX line endings and is actually technically correct when you think about how a teletype works.

      Also, CR/LF was an IBM standard, not a microsoft one. When Microsoft wrote software for Unix systems, it used LF.

    29. Re:Open the document formats by s.fontinalis · · Score: 1

      Could you please define "going down the Netscape lane to lunacy" please?

      They invented the goddamn blink tag! That thing drove us ALL to madness!

    30. Re:Open the document formats by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Yes, they are reverse engineering the formats, but they are never 100% accurate. I use special formatting on my resume (doc format) that never displays correctly on StarOffice and OpenOffice. If the format were published, it would be perfected of course, but why would Microsoft want it to work on other software suites?

      I hate to defend Microsoft, but they used to publish the doc format.

      Upon looking further, though, I wound up looking at this page, and learned that they stopped publishing most of their office formats in 1999, so recent information is unavailable. The page also provides instructions for if you want the information. I think they're scared of giving it to Sun or somebody who might sneak it into OpenOffice.org. Heh.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    31. Re:Open the document formats by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Netscape started the trend of making extensions to HTML which only their browser supported. It was those very extensions that led to 90% marketshare.

      Microsoft was, as far as web standards are concerned, the white knight. They were the ones who submitted CSS to the W3C (and had the first semi-working implementations circa IE3). They were the ones who were pushing open web standards.

      Only when IE began really eating Netscape's share (which didn't occur until long after IE4 was bundled with Win98, btw) did Netscape realize that adhering to standards was a good thing.

      Who created the font tag? Who created the marquee tag? Who created the blink tag? Who created iframes? Neither one of those companies were "playing nice". Microsoft's answer to Javascript was VBScript in the browser, but they had to use Netscapes DOM. There's a reason the early DOM used a top-level object called "Navigator". Point is, they were both constantly implementing standards differently on purpose to force web developers to choose one browser over another to support. Talk about freedom. Heh. Then, after web developers made their choice, MS had to bundle IE with their OS, and give it away for free. It was the smoothest case of rape that ever happened.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    32. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But .dxfs don't do 3D, and thus are near-useless for modern CAD. The 3D part of DWG isn't even "owned" by autocad, either - it's actually "ACIS", weakly encrypted.

      The CAD industry is really fucked up at the moment. AutoDesk and Microsoft are VERY similar companies. Neither innovate, both half-implement features so that phb's can tick the relevant boxes, without actually checking if the features work, both price-gouge, both use data lock-in.

    33. Re:Open the document formats by 47PHA60 · · Score: 1

      So, when the software provider stops the government's license because of some spat or other, you can freely open the document that tells you how to run the proprietary voting machine software?

      The argument for "open docuements" is a different problem from free software in government:

      1 - Documents should be open in a universal format because the information in them belongs to the people and must be accessible. (If you believe in democracy, than this must be true even if the government does not believe it.)

      2 - Software should be licensed to be freely used and modified so that the government, which belongs to the people, cannot be held up in its business by a foreign, domestic, or multinational corporation with its own agenda. If the free software is not "the best product" for the work, it must be made to perform as needed. The government must not be made to beg Sun or Microsoft for help in making their software work. They should hire their own people to study the problem and make the software work. This is the same way, in the corporate world, that nearly all programming is done, despite what proprietary software vendors would tell us.

      The US was started with one idea that government should, in most cases, have fewer rights than its citizens; this includes the 'right' to use unfree software that could put citizens' information access at risk, as well as the running of important government systems, like voting, the census, and security. Corporations, which are persons only in a legal sense, should have fewer rights than real people, who we believe have natural rights.

    34. Re:Open the document formats by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Add also:
      Amiga = LF
      BBC = LF + CR {that way around}

    35. Re:Open the document formats by Ashetos · · Score: 1

      I fully concur.

      One more item of note is that Microsoft and Autodesk are actually competitiors at this pont. With the purchase of Visio, Microsoft also aquired IntelliCAD, an "AutoCAD" clone.

    36. Re:Open the document formats by Haeleth · · Score: 1

      > Basically, I want to see my govt use standards that will allow me to interact with their systems using the platform of my choice.

      Then surely we do want them to run Windows - it makes it MUCH easier to interact with their systems, as SoBig and Blaster demonstrated!

    37. Re:Open the document formats by kkirk007 · · Score: 1
      It's a little ironic that the Economist article this piece links to...crashes my Opera browser.

      After doing a little trial-and-error, it seems there's something wrong with the javascript on the page. Disabling js makes the page load okay.

      But, it probably works in IE, so why would anyone care if it works in Mozilla/Opera/Konqueror, right?

      sigh.

  6. Mainstream Gets It by hbo · · Score: 5, Insightful

    To have this analysis show up in The Economist rather than Slashdot or LWN, etc, is a bad omen for Microsoft.

    It's just as easy to lie as to tell the truth. What's hard is keeping the lie standing long enough to fool your target. The truth takes less energy to maintain.

    --

    "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

    1. Re:Mainstream Gets It by NineNine · · Score: 1

      The article says essentially, "Microsoft has competition". It doesn't imply, nor do I believe, that they're in any trouble whatsoever. They're just not able to stomp all over the competition so freely anymore (although, they do still stomp the shit out of Linux in 99% of their markets, I'm sure).

    2. Re:Mainstream Gets It by hbo · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Well, the idea that OSS can compete with Microsoft is relatively new in the mainstream. But what I was referring to was the analysis of why a government entity might consider OSS to be superior to proprietary. Those are ideas that have some weight attached to them. specifically:
      • Massive peer review makes OSS more secure than comparable closed source products
      • Proprietary document formats raise issues when government information is stored using them.
      • When a government IT infrastructure is completely dependent on a (possibly foreign) corporation whose (proper) concern is shareholder value, it raises questions about the ability of the government to persue (properly) different goals using that infrastructure.



      • I've seen these issues well reported in the nerd community, but this is the first time I've read it in The Economist. Their circulation, shall we say, differs substantially from the user list at Slashdot. I think the ideas carry even more weight with decision makers in government and elsewhere when a mainstream publication like the Economist publishes them. And that, I think, is bad news for Microsoft.
      --

      "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

    3. Re:Mainstream Gets It by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      analysis of why a government entity might consider OSS to be superior to proprietary

      Disclaimer: These opinions are my own. In particular, they do not represent the opinions of anyone in the Open Source Community.

      Massive peer review makes OSS more secure than comparable closed source products
      Quite possibly true but irrelevant. Things like Code Red, Slammer, MSBlaster will not spread extensively and will be extinguished because there's a diverse horde of people with the ability to work out what it takes to stop and extinguish it. If you remove the top two-thirds of the talent, what's left will still manage to somehow extinguish it.

      Proprietary document formats raise issues when government information is stored using them
      For FUD value, add DRM and EOL issues.

      completely dependent on
      Even if you could get the answers, you still need to know the questions.
      IMNSHO, FUD originated not from IBM itself, but from IBM's customers, specifically IT managers promoted from keypunch supervisor, secretly deathly afraid of technology, and deathly afraid of IBM turning against them and they are so without resources that they would be incapable of even being aware of it. There are far too many ways to fulfill the letter of any contract and still totally sabatoge the other party.

    4. Re:Mainstream Gets It by hbo · · Score: 1

      Massive peer review makes OSS more secure than comparable closed source products
      Quite possibly true but irrelevant. Things like Code Red, Slammer, MSBlaster will not spread extensively and will be extinguished because there's a diverse horde of people with the ability to work out what it takes to stop and extinguish it. If you remove the top two-thirds of the talent, what's left will still manage to somehow extinguish it.


      Well, I'm not as optimistic about that as you seem to be.

      But, that "diverse hoard" is exactly where OSS has a potential advantage. I say "potential" because lots of people actually have to look at the source
      with an eye toward fixing security problems for the advatage to become actual. Not all OSS code gets that kind of scrutiny.

      Microsoft's isn't the only platform vulnerable to the menagerie of security bugs. Stack busting was first studied extensively on a Unix platform, for example. And Microsoft's position as the 90% leader on the desktop does indeed mean more effort is expended trying to crack their systems than others. But, on balance, their architectures have been terrible from a security perspective. They may be getting better, but they still lack that peer review advantage. So, I don't think this issue is "irrelevant."

      Regarding IBM, I understand that the term "FUD" was invented to describe their marketing practises. (Making IBM's use of the term in their counter suit against SCO pretty ironic.) But what has that to do with Microsoft's use of the practise today? Are you implying that customers today can't tell FUD from truth? I partly agree, but mostly disagree with that. First, information technology plays a much larger role today in enterprises than it did in the day that IBM was the unquestioned IT leader. IT pervades organizations from corporations to governments and beyond. That doesn't guarantee a more sophisticated consumer, but it does mean that there are more eyeballs on IT, and at a higher level. Second, despite Microsoft's monoploy position, they are not the unquestioned leader IBM was. There is a lot more noise made from a broader range of critics about Microsoft's practices than there ever was objecting to IBM's behavior. This means that the "truth" tends has a better chance of getting out. (I put "truth" in quotes to acknowledge that it can be a slippery concept in the best of circumstances. Nevertheless, I think it's relevant.)

      --

      "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

    5. Re:Mainstream Gets It by Shalda · · Score: 1

      Well, you're close. First, there's nothing to prevent Microsoft, or any other large software house, from doing internal peer review. In fact, given the number of bugs that have been patched since Microsoft started doing their security reviews, I'd say it might be working. Furthermore, most OSS projects have no organization to their peer review so that's not a very good argument. Proprietary documents are indeed a tricky question. Open document standards would be a good thing, except that open standards tend to evolve at a snails pace. I'd be satisfied with a requirement that all document formats used must be fully documented. Expect that bill to get killed in committee. Lastly, any IT infrastructure should arise from critical thinking and decision making. Ask what are the benifits and liabilities of product X.

      But here's where I think the kicker is at: making a law mandating or prohibiting OSS is dumb. That decision should rest with the IT pros who are in charge of a given project. They're the only ones properly qualified to make that decision.

    6. Re:Mainstream Gets It by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm not as optimistic about that as you seem to be.

      That's coming from a casual observer of Code Red, Slammer, MSBlaster, the reactions and responses, and speculating on what is actually required to contain them. Microsoft's responses seem to be predicated on always having finally eliminated all bugs and security holes. Microsoft itself is targeted, they send out letters to all known addresses. Took three days before a search for Code Red would turn up anything on microsoft.com. From Melissa on, there has been rapid response from /. by Unix/Linux/BSD people on how to stop/curtail/trip-up/etc the Microsoft problems.
      I had an IIS server up, unpatched, no firewalling. It did not get Code Red. No Gateway. It was not going to be talking to anything not on the LAN.
      Except for the newer laptops, we do not run anti-virus software, and its the newer laptops with the anti-virus software that get the viruses.
      The critical difference is that Linux and friends pervasively consider that the more the users are aware of, the better. Anything attempting to hide something is immediately suspect. So if there is anything funny going on, the odds are much higher that somebody will notice something. This occurs with many more people and a much lower required skill level. (And it's a complete myth that Linux requires greater skills. It tends to promote them, but the required skills to actually do anything with Linux are much less that those required to do anything with Microsoft Windows. Microsoft Windows is however easier to set up with something that looks like a system if you have no skills.)

      FUD and truth are not necessarily disjoint.
      Can Microsoft control its worms?
      Look at the progression starting with Melissa. Do you really think that even closing all the holes they know about and getting everybody to patch everything will stop it?

      Repeat:
      Disclaimer: These opinions are my own. In particular, they do not represent the opinions of anyone in the Open Source Community.

      My own concers with security have more to do with such as a shipping clerk entering the magic incantation and hosing the databases than anything the "black hats" might do. Ever wonder how the black hats found and exploited the holes? Source is pretty well necessary to fix the problems. Source is not much of an asset and can be a liability in terms of finding the problems. The source tends to show the programmers intent. The machine language shows what the program does, exactly. Just having seen the source can be enough that you cannot see what the program is actually doing. The mind sees what you expect to see.

    7. Re:Mainstream Gets It by hbo · · Score: 1

      First, there's nothing to prevent Microsoft, or any other large software house, from doing internal peer review.

      The phrase was "massive peer review." Neither Microsoft, nor any other government or corporation can match the scale at which the Free and Open Source communities can carry out such reviews.

      Furthermore, most OSS projects have no organization to their peer review

      That sounds like Darl McBride telling the community that they "need to get a business model" because he can't see a model he understands. There are formal review processes, OpenBSD's is a prominent and successful one, but the real power is engaged when the larger community pounds on a piece of software through use. Bugs get found and fixed quickly through an informal process that doesn't look anything like a formal code review, but produces better results. Even OpenBSD benefits from this informal process on top of their more formal process. The results aren't perfect, but they aren't to be sneered at either.

      Open document standards would be a good thing, except that open standards tend to evolve at a snails pace.

      Except, that's not the problem. The problem is Microsoft uses their document formats to try to lock in their customers. This is precisely the issue that concerns many governments, to judge by what I've read on the topic.

      .. making a law mandating or prohibiting OSS is dumb.

      What governments want to do, they will do. Generally they do things with laws. One could argue the politics of that for years, with no progress made in changing minds, or affecting events. Anyhow the referenced article was not concerned with mandates, but with the calculation governments will make when deciding between OSS and Microsoft. I think the former has a lot to offer this sector above and beyond what might appeal to any organization.

      --

      "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

    8. Re:Mainstream Gets It by hbo · · Score: 1

      To their credit, Microsoft has started getting out in front of many of the problems caused by their buggy software. But, as I commented last year, they are a victim of all the stupid, short sighted decisons favoring marketing glitz over technology that they have made over the years. That installed base is a millstone around their neck.

      I don't think they feel that each new bug is the last one. Gone are the days when Microsoft could ignore security issues without a direct negative impact on their bottom line.

      FUD and truth are not necessarily disjoint.

      Good point.

      Can Microsoft control its worms?

      That's an open question. They are certainly trying. So is everyone else, of course. It's an arms race. Everyone is vulnerable.

      Your comments regarding the real security threat coming from insiders is correct, of course. However, nobody blames the platform or database vendor when that happens. Viruses and other malware coming from the Internet are highly visible. And as they increase in sophistication and destructive potential, they may actually start to tip the well known inside/outside security balance a little. Looking at external threats in isolation for a moment, the balance between malware authors and those who would protect systems is uncomfortably tilted in favor of the black hats by virtue of the "weakest link" principle. Everyone suffers from this, not just Microsoft. Responses to this imbalance include Microsoft's new strategy of focussing a large part of their considerable resources on the problem, and the Open Source community's massive peer review process. As I say, the jury is still out on which will prove the better approach over the long haul. I strongly believe that the latter is better, and so it has proved throughout the era when Microsoft was clueless about security. Now that they are fully enaged, we might be better able to judge which approach is better. Or we might never learn this, if both styles sink under the weight of proliferating malware.

      --

      "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

    9. Re:Mainstream Gets It by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      they are a victim of all the stupid, short sighted decisons favoring marketing glitz over technology that they have made over the years. That installed base is a millstone around their neck.
      Bingo! It's all those little things that affect the user's expectations and decisions about what to do. Everything tells the user (s)he is supposed to click or they might miss out on something. It's stuff like hiding file extensions. I have yet to see any signs of Microsoft changing its tune. Regardless of what Microsoft patches, there will always be one more.

      Methinks Microsoft will have enormous problems changing what it has to to get on top of the worms.
      Imagine. You install OpenBSD and are greeted with something like:
      Welcome to OpenBSD 3.4, the most secure OpenBSD ever.
      Sit back and relax in your new-found security.

      I have run OpenBSD on a few boxes where Linux didn't like a particular SCSI controller or network card or some such, but I'd say I'm about strictly noobie level on it. If I saw anything like the above rather than the stock email and man afterboot, I'd get very paranoid very fast. Nothing's completely secure, but there's a vast range of insecurity. Linux has holes. They're being fixed. If anything starts to do any real damage it will get fixed in a hurry.

    10. Re:Mainstream Gets It by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Quite possibly true but irrelevant. Things like Code Red, Slammer, MSBlaster will not spread extensively and will be extinguished because there's a diverse horde of people with the ability to work out what it takes to stop and extinguish it. If you remove the top two-thirds of the talent, what's left will still manage to somehow extinguish it

      This stuff will exist for Linux, when Linux has 90% of the market share. All other arguments about it aside, the only way to prevent viruses and worms and crap from hurting large groups of people is to have a diverse group of binary-incompatible platforms. For example, if Linux on x86 had 20%, Linux on PPC had 10%, FreeBSD on x86 had 10%, FreeBSD on PPC had 10%, Mac OS X had 10%....on and on and on. POint is, the x86 Linux machines wouldn't be able to spread a virus to the PPC Linux machines, and so on and so forth. Make the crackers have to support a variety of platforms in they really want to exploit it.

      In the meantime, keep the protocols and file formats and so forth open, using POSIX systems and standard UNIX interfaces, and open interfaces, we can have developers develop for ALL of these platforms very easily. (I realize that the tools application developers have are the same tools that virus developers have, but making a GUI that compiles on 5 platforms is different than making a virus that exploits 5 platforms simultaneously)

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    11. Re:Mainstream Gets It by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      But here's where I think the kicker is at: making a law mandating or prohibiting OSS is dumb. That decision should rest with the IT pros who are in charge of a given project. They're the only ones properly qualified to make that decision.

      Do you really want to leave it up to a paid IT professional on how to make public government information available to the public? Do you really want the hired help to have that sort of control over our freedom?

      It's a big deal when Microsoft, Oracle, and all the other guys hold your government's data hostage.

      If the lawmakers make laws requiring OSS because it's technically superior to proprietary software, then I agree with you, they're out of their league.

      On the other hand, I want my elected officials to mandate OSS software because it provides free and open access to the government's information. Yes, they can lock-down their top-secret stuff, but when it all comes down to it, the government's got no business putting public information under the control of a corporation who's only responsible to its shareholders. The Economist was right on with this, and it's sure in the fuck not the first time I've seen this argument made.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    12. Re:Mainstream Gets It by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      but the real power is engaged when the larger community pounds on a piece of software through use.

      Microsoft even backs up this claim. I read an article awhile back about how they've been finding all kinds of bugs they never even suspected since they implemented bug reporting on Windows XP. Of course, MS won't admit that free software has been like this for awhile, simply due to the participation of the community....

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
    13. Re:Mainstream Gets It by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm not as optimistic about that as you seem to be.

      Take a look at the current whatever on the latest OpenSSH. Now, if it really is a hole, does it stand a chance of accomplishing anything?

      Nice and orderly? No.
      Does the bug have a chance? No.

    14. Re:Mainstream Gets It by hbo · · Score: 1

      It stood a chance from day 0 on my OpenBSD firewall. I restricted ssh this morning after I (belatedly) heard about it.

      And that bug will gain traction on systems that don't get patched. Unfortunately, Windows admins aren't the only ones with unpatched systems. 8(

      --

      "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

  7. Re:How to be an American by CrazyGringo · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Oooh. You hurt me. You are just as intolerant as the KKK, asshole.

  8. So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft is business; businesses must always compete hardball for government contracts, in any sector, be it software, hardware, equipment, construction. It's no surprise that it's offering special deals to preserve it's market share, that's what you'd expect any business to do.

    There are many businesses behind the open source movement: Red Hat, IBM, Sun. Don't doubt that they aren't competing just as hard for the same contracts. And open source has a big advantage over Microsoft - the number of vocal advocates that are willing to promote it without payment. In fact, you'll find many of them here on Slashdot.

    1. Re:So what? by westlake · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And open source has a big advantage over Microsoft - the number of vocal advocates that are willing to promote it without payment. In fact, you'll find many of them here on Slashdot

      Something of a mixed blessing, I think.

    2. Re:So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      1. Sure, deep discounts are part of business. So is your last customer feeling screwed over for not getting one when they see what MS is willing to do for foreign business. Both perfectly normal, reasonable reactions, only one damaging to MS.

      2. Which government agencies look to Slashdot postings for tech advice? I want to make sure nothing important in my life rides on their service.

    3. Re:So what? by GQuon · · Score: 1
      It's no surprise that it's offering special deals to preserve it's market share, that's what you'd expect any business to do.

      It's actually a mild shock to me. Remembering Microsoft's past actions, I would have expected them to at least put the discounts directly into the politicians' secret bank accounts.

      Note to self: If buying a Microsoft product:
      1. Announce that you are going open source.
      2. Get discount offer from Microsoft.
      3. Cheap software!
      4. Microsoft profits?
      --
      Irene KHAAAAAAN!
    4. Re:So what? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft is business; businesses must always compete hardball for government contracts, in any sector, be it software, hardware, equipment, construction.

      Yeah, but how many businesses call their competitors blantant "communists" (from the economist article)

    5. Re:So what? by screenrc · · Score: 1
      Sorry, I Microsoft has more users willing
      to promote Microsoft than Free Software has
      users willing to promote Free Software.

    6. Re:So what? by fucksl4shd0t · · Score: 1

      Sorry, I Microsoft has more users willing to promote Microsoft than Free Software has users willing to promote Free Software.

      The difference between the two groups is the the Free SOftware group is growing while the Microsoft group is shrinking.

      --
      Like what I said? You might like my music
  9. "America" is $$$ and Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    America, real America is a place of freedom, of dreams and hopes, of caring for each other, of support for the less fortunate. We encompass all cultures of the world, and thus have so much to offer.

    Why do we let money and power rule us? Time to get back to the roots of our identity, pluralism and compassion.

    1. Re:"America" is $$$ and Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Time to get back to the roots of our identity, pluralism and compassion.

      americans, ignore my previous comment - mod parent up!

    2. Re:"America" is $$$ and Power by SignificantBit · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      " America, real America is a place of freedom, of dreams and hopes, of caring for each other, of support for the less fortunate" tell that to the 1k+ people -yes they are PEOPLE- on Guantanamo who hasn't be charge of anything and are inprision without rights whatsoever.

    3. Re:"America" is $$$ and Power by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      whoever said americans are naive?

      lol

  10. Business and Economics of Linux and Open Source by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Users love software that they don't have to pay for. But, some software professionals have to make a living creating and maintaining that software. Many companies today grapple with the question, "how to make money with Linux and Open Source?" Some software business leaders are worried about whether Linux and Open Source are impacting business viability of operating systems/environment business. Enterprise business and IT managers are quite happy to see the trend towards software they don't have to pay for. But, most often they do not understand what the implications are and what the fine prints way. Martin Fink has done an excellent job of compiling all the fundamental and essential information on the business aspects of Linux and Open Source software. He clarifies and removes many myths people carry in their minds. Probably this is a "one of its kind" book that brings together the various angles such as the overview of terms, understanding legal lingo, business model aspects, talent management aspects and so on. The book covers the essential technical aspects lucidly and adequately. If you are looking for a deep technical source for Linux and Open Source architectures, there are enough pointers in the book; but, this book is not meant for that purpose. I recommend this book for software engineers who have to understand the business aspects and Enterprise IT/Business Managers who are deploying/planning Linux and Open Source components in their business. The timing of the book is perfect. This book is a good candidate for bringing out update versions as the domain expands and matures. I don't know whether Martin Fink plans to upgrade the book year after year.

    Quoted from Amazon

  11. Economics 101: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Never compete with a free product to begin with.

  12. Re:Bye Bye Birdie by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    never had a single problem in openoffice either in linux or windows. Runs flawlessly all the time and is WAY more intuitive to me than MS Office.

    Panels are just useless, time to get rid of em anyway. So..dump your panel (ie. icewm) and enjoy openoffice

    =)

  13. Damn, it feels good to be a gangster by MoralHazard · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm torn on whether to be surprised by this--the Economist has run stories before (there was one last issue on the SCO deal) that seem to be subtly, quietly favoring GNU/Linux.

    The part of me that says "I told you so" has been informed by recent experiences with managment/executives in our small business. They LOVE the fact that we run Linux on everything (well, there's a couple of BSD and Windows machines where we need them) and they never hesitate to brag about it to clients. They love feeling ahead of the curve.

    The surprised part of me read the article in the WSJ last month (on the SCO thing) that warned the "Linux crunchies" to be wary of SCO's ability to win scummy IP lawsuits. The article betrayed a complete lack of understanding of what the "Open-Source community" is (to the extent that it's anything at all). And the same execs that love having Slackware stickers on everything need to be reminded during every internal licensing audit that GNU/Linux IS free as in beer, too.

    They love it, but they don't get it. Makes me a little worried, sometimes, where they'll want to take it.

    1. Re:Damn, it feels good to be a gangster by EinarH · · Score: 1
      They love it, but they don't get it. Makes me a little worried, sometimes, where they'll want to take it.
      I have experienced the same things. Management initially did'nt belive in Linux, we (as in consulting) convinced them into testing it for some tasks like web servers, DNS, firewall, proxy.
      Management love it because, quote: "Linux rocks". Its free (as in management-no-pay-free) and stable.
      But some of them never got the concept behind Linux. GNU? Open source/free software? Freedom to change the code? Propretary? Lock-in? Security through open code?

      Even when we tried to educate them about the not so clearly seen benefits with free software they could not see it. So when we said that Linux prob. would not work for all their applications(some old power management systems) they did not understand why. So when we told them that we could not replace their huge DB2 (yet) they did not understand why. So when they had to pay for Linux-support they did not understand why("I though Linux was free".

      I think these things wil happen in a lot of companies when there are a significant distance between reality and expectations. Now that various business, executive and CIO magazines are hyping Linux they are all over it, but many of them will never understand why it's happening. I also fear that Linux might not be able to live up to some of the expectations some exec. will get from all the buzz.

      --

      Melius mori in libertate quam vivere in servitute.

    2. Re:Damn, it feels good to be a gangster by jpetts · · Score: 1

      I'm torn on whether to be surprised by this--the Economist has run stories before (there was one last issue on the SCO deal) that seem to be subtly, quietly favoring GNU/Linux.

      Where The Economist, Forbes, Newsweek, etc., score over lots of other publications is that they are mainstream enough (i.e. far enough removed from Geekdom) for them to be able to be truly neutral. It doesn't matter a wet slap what ANY computer mag says: all of them have a bias either for or against OSS, and people know it and it shows. The Economist, et. al. can genuinely be more objective than every single computer trade rag.

      --
      Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
    3. Re:Damn, it feels good to be a gangster by leviramsey · · Score: 1

      Another advantage that Forbes and The Economist have for us is their readership. Go into a CEO's office, or the home of a guy who sits on the board of a number of corporations and so forth, and you'll likely see a Forbes lying around (maybe even being read). They read about how $COMPANY deployed Linux for $TASKS and saved megabucks, and then they call up the CIO and say, "What is this Linux thing I'm reading about? Can it help us save money?"

      IT drones read computer magazines and Slashdot. Powerful people read Forbes.

  14. Closed format by timelady · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It was interesting that the various governments are interested in alternatives, in large part, because of the storage of information in proprietory format. This would only be enhanced by the latest proposed MSOffice document format being incompatible with even previous versions. But the best bit, imho is that the article metnions three groups/professions to benefit most from the move to Open Source: " large consultancy firms and systems integrators, such as IBM, which will be called in to devise and install alternative products; firms such as Red Hat or SuSE, which sell Linux-based products and services; and numerous small, local technology firms that can tailor open-source products for governmental users.numerous small, local technology firms that can tailor open-source products for governmental users". Hmm, don't critics of Open Source always say no way to make money from such a 'socialist/communist/root of all evil/hippy' model? And gee, helping small businesses, especially IT based ones, expand, profit, and employ more people, is HIGH on all government wish lists. Great to see an intelligent analysis in a respected magazine, too.

    --
    Nothing - well thats something.
    1. Re:Closed format by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...numerous small, local technology firms that can tailor open-source products for governmental users

      This is an important issue, from a political standpoint. Instead of the government sending their money to Microsoft, which would just be a net loss, they can spend it in the local economy and provide jobs and incomes to local workers. This not only helps politicians stay in office, but can also help create local software industries and development in undeveloped countries. A feedback loop is the result, where the development is spent locally, which helps generate skills, which allows more development to happen locally, which generates more skills, and so on.

    2. Re:Closed format by soloport · · Score: 1

      And gee, helping small businesses, especially IT based ones, expand, profit, and employ more people, is HIGH on all government wish lists.

      Not those governments funded by big business.

  15. Microsoft still doesn't get it by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Microsoft doesn't get it. They can put as much money as they want into their internal "slush" fund in order to match Linux on price. They can fund as many studies as they want that "find" Windows is cheaper. It won't matter. Choosing FOSS is not just about money. In fact, it's mostly NOT about money. It's about a principle: freedom.

    Governments want the freedom to set their own technology course, not be dependent upon a proprietary software company that is beholden first of all to its shareholders. Governments want the security of knowing precisely what their machines are running on, by checking the code themselves. Governments want the abililty to set their own upgrade schedule, not wait until a company tells them the new version is ready. Governments want the ability to squash bugs immediately, not just when a company decides that bug is worth fixing instead of just adding new features.

    Microsoft is so focused on winning the bottom line that they don't seem to have caught on to the biggest appeal of FOSS: Not free as in cost, but free as in speech. It's a principle that individuals find appealing, and now governments are finding that this freedom works for them as well. So no matter what Microsoft does, they can never compete on those terms. It's a principle now. Game over.

    1. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by NineNine · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      No, YOU don't get it. You obviously don't run a business. Principles like "free as in freedom" don't come into play when you're talking about the bottom line. That's a very, very naive viewpoint. I don't give a flying shit about "free as in freedom" when I have bills to pay, and I doubt that most other companies, unless they're awash in profits, do either.

    2. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 5, Insightful
      " No, YOU don't get it. You obviously don't run a business. Principles like "free as in freedom" don't come into play when you're talking about the bottom line. That's a very, very naive viewpoint."

      Do tell. In fact, you have no idea what I do for a living, and your assumptions are laughable from where I am sitting. In fact, "free as in freedom" is directly applicable to the bottom line when you can control the destiny of the software your business depends on. While Microsoft tells you where you are going today, those who control their own software get to make that business decision themselves.

      And THAT is what helps you pay your bills.

    3. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Krunch · · Score: 1

      May be this is the case for business but I hope governments care more about freedom than money. I know it seems strange to think that it is possible.

      --
      No GNU has been Hurd during the making of this comment.
    4. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ninenine is a known troll

    5. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Tim+Doran · · Score: 3, Interesting

      hmm... except the bulk of this article was about OSS in government. Government faces many of the same cost control/performance issues as private enterprise, but government is NOT a business.

      Government must consider its responsibility to the people - locking its data in proprietary formats doesn't meet that responsibility. Heck, even if OSS winds up costing more than proprietary solutions, it's the right thing for government to do, since publicly-owned information will be available long after anyone can get their hands on a copy of some long-defunct proprietary software.

      The other point the article made was that this trend in government could trigger a trend in business, since there's a huge private sector that serves government.

    6. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by MoralHazard · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Whoa, pally--for some of "us" (as in, people who read slashdot), it's NOT about a principle. At all. It's totally, entirely, wholly about money. And is that bad?

      We use GNU/Linux at work because it works really well for the small-to-medium environment we have. There are a gazillion more choices with Linux than with MS, and it's rare (in my experience, anyway) to find any specific apps at this level where OS can't do it better or equally well.

      Open source software (in our environment, for the tasks we have, and as we use it) installs fast, it's user friendly once you get to know it, and there's no license management, vendor contracts, or other ancillary bullshit to make headaches. It's just so simple, so easy, and it works so well.

      That's about the money, BTW, because time is money. GNU/Linux is a cheaper, better alternative to MS, and that's why we use it.

    7. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by FunWithHeadlines · · Score: 3, Insightful
      That's fine, it can be about the money for some people. All I'm saying is that there are some institutions that now turn away from closed-source out of principle. That's not you? Fine. But it is for some, and Microsoft will never be able to defeat that.

    8. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by The+Analog+Kid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Principles like "free as in freedom" don't come into play when you're talking about the bottom line. It does when your the client and you like the principal.

    9. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by bgarrett · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You obviously don't run a business where your software depended on a specific environment, which the vendor (Microsoft) has made obsolete, or has "patched" into utter brokenness. Freedom is important when you need a stable base for applications, because freedom comes with the ability to accept upgrades, or to stay where you are because what you have is what works best for you.

      This can even happen in the Linux world (with a lot of people complaining about RH's updates policy, when they're happily running RH7.3 machines).

      --
      Nothing worth doing is worth doing today.
    10. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by hbo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think underestimating Microsoft is advisable. I think they do get the true nauture of OSS and the threat it poses to their businesses. They are trying to answer as many of those threats as they can. Linux threatens Microsoft on many fronts. One is price, and not just on the initial purchase. So they have a fund that can be used to ensure they lose no deals to Linux based on price. But as the Economist points out, Munich took Microsoft's "cheaper than Linux" offer and told them to keep it. There are other areas where they are having a hard time responding to the Linux threat. They can't match the massive peer review advantage of OSS without becoming a completely different company. But they can partially answer the advantage of open source code. Thus, their "shared source" program was born. Along with this goes FUD claiming that the peer review advantage of OSS is actually a weakness because bad guys can look at the source too. This probably plays well for them, but since it isn't true, it will only be useful for a while. Similarly, Microsoft spreads FUD about intellectual property in Linux. And in the same way, once the SCO suit is dealt with, they won't be able to use that angle either.

      So judging by their responses, I'd say Microsoft "gets it" completely. They are perhaps the most clever, and ruthless, practicioners of marketing the world has ever seen. Underestimate them at your peril!

      --

      "Even if you are on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there" - Will Rogers

    11. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You obviously don't run a business.

      And from the sounds of it, neither do you - at least not a successful one.

      Principles like "free as in freedom" don't come into play when you're talking about the bottom line.

      They should. Really.

      That's a very, very naive viewpoint.

      Yours, or his? Your viewpoint is so totally closed-minded it's unbelievable.

      I don't give a flying shit about "free as in freedom" when I have bills to pay

      You should. If your business uses computers, then you should care very much about "free as in freedom" - because it directly affects your bottom line.

      The company I work for is (like many others right now) having a hard time making ends meet - and my department (the only one that uses Free software) is the only one turning a profit.. in fact, we are the only reason the company is still in business. I attribute this directly to Free software.

      If someone in my department needs a feature or bug fixed for an app on his/her desktop, we are free to add that - we don't have to send a feature request to another company, wait a year or so for them to implement it (and hope that it gets done the way we want), and then have the "pleasure" of re-buying that software.

      If a customer says "boy, I wish your product would do X", we're not saddled with contacting some mysterious upstream vendor, and begging politely for them to implement it, so that we can start rolling it out, and (finally) charge the customer. Instead, we say "we'll get right on that", write the necessary code, and start billing.

      I doubt that most other companies, unless they're awash in profits, do either.

      This is the most telling.. Perhaps you hadn't noticed, but such companies are awash in profits because they care about Freedom (at least their own.)

      Think about it: MS, the biggest company that comes to mind when you say "awash in profits", is profitable precisely because they have freedom over their own code. And because they religiously deny that freedom to others, those others are typically not as profitable.

      If you really are a businessperson, you should open your eyes, and take a long, hard, look at what you're doing - because your view of Free software is probably part of why you're not as successful as you could be.

    12. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by swillden · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No, YOU don't get it. You obviously don't run a business. Principles like "free as in freedom" don't come into play when you're talking about the bottom line.

      You're offtopic. We're talking about government, not business, and government does have priorities beyond the "bottom line" (which governments don't even *have*, since the phrase refers to net earnings, and governments aren't profit-generating entities).

      Continuing your off-topic direction, I also disagree that businesses find no value in avoiding lock-in, and the freedom to find a new "vendor" at any moment is a direct effect of the "free as in freedom" principle, even if CIOs won't typically recognize the connection. Some other salutary effects of freedom on the bottom line are freedom from BSA audits, elimination of the overhead of managing licenses and the ability to get critical defects corrected on your schedule, not the supplier's.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    13. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by swillden · · Score: 1

      Microsoft is so focused on winning the bottom line that they don't seem to have caught on to the biggest appeal of FOSS: Not free as in cost, but free as in speech.

      Nahh, they get it. They're smart people, and it's pretty obvious. But they really have no response to it, so they're doing what they can. They're trying not to lose on price, they're FUDding in several directions (security, IP [e.g. SCO], economic impact, TCO, etc.), and they're doing their shared source thing. None of that addresses this key point, but it's not like they're just going to throw their hands in the air and concede defeat before the market is ripped forcibly from their clenched teeth. They'll keep at it, and they'll keep looking for new angles.

      If they could just find a way to rehabilitate their image, they might even succeed but, at this point, no one trusts MS farther than they could throw a 10-foot stack of EULAs, and that's really going to hurt them as it becomes more obvious that there really *is* an alternative.

      --
      Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
    14. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by the+gnat · · Score: 1

      Principles like "free as in freedom" don't come into play when you're talking about the bottom line.

      They do when the proprietary alternative forces you into a licensing plan and is structured around planned obsolescence. Additionally, a Microsoft installation almost by definition forces adoption of Microsoft products by peripherals, e.g. the poor suckers like me who have to read the Word documents that they receive. Given that Microsoft forces homogeneity, "freedom" may be very valuable indeed.

      Perhaps these companies are thinking about three years down the line when they're facing cutbacks and that licensing agreement and the server migration to the latest Windows doesn't look so hot anymore.

    15. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Felinoid · · Score: 1

      You obviously don't run a business. Principles like "free as in freedom" don't come into play when you're talking about the bottom line.

      I do run a business and in fact "free as in freedom" has a direct impact on the bottom line.

      It's not some far off utopian consept and it's not the price tag on the software.
      It's the preformence of the software today tomarow and into the far flung future.

      Fact is you can never be sure ANY program will have the features you want or need tomarow.
      You can only find the software that dose the job the best today.

      Every pacage uses a unique file format. This isn't an option as features expand byond the existing standards.
      Those formats in closed source are also closed. The documentation of those formats are unreliable at best.
      Those formats in open source are open. There is no better documentation of a file format than the source code used to load and save that file. Porting it over to annother pacage shouldn't be a problem thow even if it is you know exactly how it's done so you can make a compatable process.

      As your business expands so dose your needs. There is no way you can know what those needs will be before they arrive. If the software your using dosen't fill those needs then it's time to make a change.

      With open source you could add the feature yourself.
      Or you can find a pacage that already supports the features you want and need.

      With closed source you can... scale back so you don't need that feature anymore.
      Or shut down while everything is painstakingly copied by hand from one pacage to annother.

      Or pay the company large sums of money to add the feature.

      Or find a way around the need.

      Or pay a document conversion company to handle the transision for you.

      Or download an open source conversion program and pray...

      Being that I'm not christian that last one isn't an option....

      Any time you give up freedom the price you pay for your business is the ability to do new and diffrent things.

      And if your smart you'll be going in directions NOBODY has gone before. When that happends you'll open up new possabilitys and whole new software requirements.
      Your only option then is to add the features you need or write a whole new program.

      If your using closed source however you cann't do eather.
      If your using open source you can...

      If you write a whole new program it's totally up to you if it's open or close.
      If your not in the software business your probably better off going open source and get the free advertsing that comes with it.

      If you are in the software business then write your own code from the start and none of this will ever be an issue.

      --
      I don't actually exist.
    16. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by sniggly · · Score: 3, Interesting
      "controlling destiny" doesn't generally come into play. Things like initial cost, maintenance, training, support, downtime, possible upgrades, etc are things that I consider when I buy software.

      That's exactly what controlling destiny means. It's not just an obi wan kenobi thing you know... And you might not be a programmer but getting source code and being able to tweak it should be HIGH on your list if you're in any tech business.

      I'm glad the founding fathers thought a little different. Or did they have excess disposable income that they created such convenient constitutional freedoms?

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
    17. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by sniggly · · Score: 1
      We run a couple of rh 6.2 machines still. We can get the 2.2 kernel updates, apache updates, glibc updates... We don't depend on redhat for that. For what we do with it 6.2 is swee-et.

      make
      make install
      and we're updated. In linux you don't depend on a vendor, you depend on the community to fix stuff. They've never failed us.

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
    18. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Tony-A · · Score: 1

      So judging by their responses, I'd say Microsoft "gets it" completely.
      Methinks you're right. Microsoft is trying to keep milking a dead cow as long as possible. I'd more than halfway expect Microsoft to turn rather nasty as the cow starts decomposing.

      Munich took Microsoft's "cheaper than Linux" offer and told them to keep it.
      Methinks they studied it enough to know that Linux was the better deal, regardless of whatever price Microsoft could come up with. Why do you think they set up that fund? The only surprise maybe is the switch now rather than wait a couple of years.

    19. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by rmohr02 · · Score: 1

      Yes, MS knows about the true nature of FOSS, but they're trying to keep that true nature under wraps.

    20. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by zsau · · Score: 1

      I converted to Linux for personal use because I couldn't afford a licence for Windows. I now can't go back to Windows because I need the freedom of having the source to apps I want to change available. That's also why I prefer Gentoo et FreeBSD to Debian et Red Hat.

      --
      Look out!
    21. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by MoralHazard · · Score: 1

      Actually, I don't think that MS will ever be able to defeat OSS in general, and GNU/Linux in particular, specifically on the money issue. And on this point, I think that you and I are probably saying the same thing, but we're interpreting it through differing experiences.

      Linux is cheaper, somewhat, because it's free. But as many have observed, this has little to do with how valuable it is in the shop. One Windows 2K Pro license costs ~$275, and a Server license is ~$700. My co-workers and I bill out at $250-350 per hour, so the license is a tiny portion of the overall cost on any project taking more than a day per machine.

      The real costs associated with Windows are how much longer it takes to get work done, and how much more you can do with Linux (and the right OSS packages). With a tweaked disk image, I can have a brand new {djbdns|dhcpd|ntp|samba|afs|apache|ftp} server up and running, configured for the job, and tested in less than two hours. And that's if I'm not hurrying.

      Example: I was at a client site last week, and we needed to drop a sniffer on a policy offender--but the offender was a server-room guy, and would notice a wacky service, an active span port, or anything like that. So we put a physical tap inside his wall plate and ran a cable to an empty office, and threw up a brand-new slackware installation. It took 15 minutes to get the box running, and 30 minutes to get the tap in place. Try THAT shit with Windows, right? Even with winpcap and windump, building the box from scratch is a long chore.

      That's what makes OSS cheaper, and that has nothing to do with the coding quality. The wonderful things we generically associate with mature OSS projects (flexible, fast, secure, reliable, simple) are direct results of the philosophies at work in the movement. Many of the tools that allow non-OSS software to gain customers (FUD, advertising, slimy salescreatures, and lobbyists) are not present for OSS software, or are at least reduced. The fact that Linus's bottom line has nothing to do with how many new Linux servers go online today means that there's no incentive to behave like MS, using business technique to substitute for actual code quality. OSS is better because it HAS to be better, just to overcome the commercial advantage of having Sales and Marketing departments.

      That is a philosophical phenomenon, but it translates directly into a cheaper, better solution for me. And you're right, MS will never, ever win on the philosophy.

    22. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Creepy+Crawler · · Score: 1

      Peopel wuld probably belive you if you speled corectlly.

      --
    23. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by screenrc · · Score: 1

      Why should Microsoft "get it"? They are doing
      fine as it is. Granted, eventually Free Software
      will win, but Microsoft can still continue to
      rape everyone until some time in the future
      when the crime will no longer be viable. Until
      then, the rape must go on.

    24. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by screenrc · · Score: 1
      Don't listen to others on Slashdot might say,
      but Free-of-Charge is indeed a big part of
      freedom. But choosing a product just because
      it is free-of-charge might not be as desirable
      as the one at is free-as-freedom, it (usually) depends
      whether you are an individual user or
      a business user.


      As an aside, would you use GNU/Linux if
      you got a free cd from SCO? No, I will
      wiser to *purchace* Free Software
      for other vendors.

    25. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by screenrc · · Score: 1
      Hmm, Microsoft can instantly gain the advantages
      of peer review by using BSD licensed software.


      As for peer review security, what Miscrosoft
      says is funny. since they themselves are using
      Free Software security products like kerberos,
      and most of BSD's networking stack.

    26. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by MoralHazard · · Score: 1

      It does depend on who you are--it's the whole "time is money" point, again. If your time is worth $500+ an hour (a lawyer, for instance), you'd be less likely to fuck around with an OS installation at all. If you need a highly customized, tweaked-out configuration (with a hardware driver you wrote yourself), you're probably going to have to go with OSS--even if you ARE a $500/hour dude.

      As to the SCO cd question, I wouldn't take a CD from SCO... or Mandrake, or Redhat, or SUSE. I roll my own. Heavily modified Slackware or Crux (god damn, I love Crux), with custom patched and compiled kernels. We take our linux very, VERY seriously where I come from.

    27. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1
      " Whoa, pally--for some of "us" (as in, people who read slashdot), it's NOT about a principle. At all. It's totally, entirely, wholly about money. And is that bad?"
      As far as your choice of operating system, not at all. But please do us all a favor and don't stretch this principle any further. :)
      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    28. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by sbranden · · Score: 1

      For a nice little look at how the FUD is being used, check out this interview with the Middle East regional director. To me he outlines how MS is going to use the recent SCO FUD.

    29. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Spoing · · Score: 1
      Whoa, pally--for some of "us" (as in, people who read slashdot), it's NOT about a principle. At all. It's totally, entirely, wholly about money. And is that bad? ... That's about the money, BTW, because time is money. GNU/Linux is a cheaper, better alternative to MS, and that's why we use it.

      Agreed. The no-licence cost factor is a big deal. It is the nose of the camel.

      That I've been able to set up 2 demo web applications quickly including custimzation Bugzilla and Twiki) has made an impact. The expectation was that in licencing alone each would cost thousands to tens of thousands.

      Along the way, pointing out that Ant/Tomcat/Apache and a host of other core tools already at this company are open source as well only increases the profile of open source itself. The philosophy and the core practical benifits of standards and open source are critially important -- though the money is the sugar in the message.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    30. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by yuri+benjamin · · Score: 1

      We're talking about government, not business, and government does have priorities beyond the "bottom line" (which governments don't even *have*, since the phrase refers to net earnings, and governments aren't profit-generating entities).

      Govts may have other priorities, but they'd better make being cost-effective one of them! especially if I have to pay taxes.
      The less tax-payer money is spent on software licensing, the more can be spent on other worthwhile things like schools and hospitals.

      So bottom-line should matter to govts.
      Of course, the free as in liberty (as opposed to free as in gratis) is also important.

      --
      You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
    31. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Permission+Denied · · Score: 2, Insightful
      All I'm saying is that there are some institutions that now turn away from closed-source out of principle.

      This is fine - private institutions can do whatever they want.

      However, governments cannot do whatever they want. They're spending our money.

      Let's say the state needs some program to perform a specific function. Say, they need a complex statistical analysis program to compile something out of census data. Let's say they have two choices: they can write their own program (and then open up the source for it) or they can buy a proprietary system. Say the proprietary system costs $10000 for this one-time calculation. Say developping an equivalent program requires $1000000 (and, to belay further arguments, we'll say the system they develop will only be useful for them and only this one time with their particular census data in that particular year).

      Now, which is more important? The "freedom" from opening the source for their own program, or $990000? You might say the "freedom" is more important, but it's not - part of that $990000 comes out of my salary and I do not approve of this quixotic endeavor; I question the usefulness of making such a specialized (eg, useless) program "free" (whatever is meant by that word).

      Now, I agree that in general goverments are the ideal place to replace proprietary software with open systems. But this is because most open systems cost less in the long run and I demand that my money is spent efficiently (the census data example was specifically concocted as a example of where proprietary software is less costly). If everyone (or a majority) agreed with the FSF's idea of "freedom" then governments would be obliged to migrate from proprietary systems. In certain situations, this is already the case: most people, if properly informed, would demand that all the source for any electronic voting system must be publically available with no restrictions. However, as long as the majority of people disagree with the FSF and believe that proprietary software can be legitimate, goverments are under no such ethical or political obligation and the only factor determining their choice in software should be cost.

    32. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Azghoul · · Score: 1

      Damn, I was wondering what your business was that you were billing at 250 - 300 / hr, but then I read the rest of your post. Sounds pretty damn cool to me. :)

    33. Re:Microsoft still doesn't get it by Via_Patrino · · Score: 1

      Here in Brazil, one of the major reasons the government is trying to push OSS is to support and develop (evolve) the softwares locally, generating jobs here (less unemployement) and sending less profits abroad (less deficit).

  16. Bass-ackwards thinking by Xenothaulus · · Score: 4, Insightful
    "Jason Matusow, Microsoft's shared-source manager, says that developing software requires leadership and an understanding of customer needs--both areas where proprietary-software companies excel."

    An understanding of customer needs.

    Exactly why governments are gravitating towards open-source, according to the article. They can tailour the code to suit their needs, instead of expressing thier needs to a company and then waiting for the product.

    1. Re:Bass-ackwards thinking by JamesTRexx · · Score: 1

      and then waiting for the product

      Not to mention getting features they don't want or need in the meantime, right Clippy? *pats Clippy on his head*

      --
      home
  17. Re:Think about the problems by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 2, Funny
    Some foreign national cyber-terrorist could include malicious code in our govermental code.
    Don't forget to think of the children, too!!!
  18. Phew by tarquin_fim_bim · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Politicians in India have called on its vast army of programmers to develop open-source products for the same reasons."

    All you MS developers are safe now. There'll be no outsourcing there any more.

  19. This article isn't really insightful, more... by pr0ntab · · Score: 5, Insightful

    of a head's up to anyone who hasn't read the headlines on Slashdot, CNet, or google for the last 18 months or so.

    I think what's more telling is that it is sitting there in the Economist. Now you just have to wait for it to show up in Business Week as an editorial piece, and then It Must Be True, at least to managerial types of various calibers.

    The Economist has this characterization of being for people who have their finger on the pulse of things; who are levelheaded and are already in the know, so it may sort of be preaching to the choir. It's pretty spin free, so that awkward quote from the Microsoft rep "being customer-focused" sort of stands out, and I think that was intentional.

    Microsoft doesn't customer-focus unless you're entering a partnership agreement with them. Otherwise your wants and needs are averaged out across the board and shipped in a Service Pack. Meanwhile the article puts that quote agaisnt the backdrop of how open-source is being chosen precisely because it's easy to tailor for what you need.

    And you don't have to be a slashdotter to appreciate that irony. It's all right there.

    --
    Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
  20. Re:How to be an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    it's asswipe, your a commie.

  21. Who cares... you'll only end up helping open soure by snooo53 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I mean really. Every time a large corporation tries to do something like this, it eventually backfires on them. Look at everything the RIAA has tried the past few years... and P2P has become even more universal in the computer world because of the publicity. They've only managed to undermine themselves by doing things to make people hate them.

    The same will be true of Microsoft... the more they attack open source software, they will undermine their own monopoly. This could end up causing a huge draw towards open source. Just like the RIAA they could have chose to embrace new technology (and ways of thinking), Microsoft could have embraced open source. Given grants to developers and kept their own business alive by forever by making good interfaces to those programs (after all, it's what they're good at). But instead, like the RIAA, they chose to go on the offensive and in the end it will kill their business if they don't change.

    So I say, bring it on Microsoft! You're only ensuring that in the future, with those tactics, Open Source will dominate the computer world, just like P2P is beginning to dominate the music distribution world.

    --
    The sending of this message pretty much inconveniences everyone involved.
  22. Re:Liars!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Ah, I see you followed rule 3. Good job, asswipe.

  23. Rubbish by Gonoff · · Score: 3, Informative

    It uses every font installed on my computer - whether I boot Linux or Windows. It does them in every size and the printed output looks the same as any other word processor.

    Yes, there are deficiencies. It doesn't have a database or email/calendar programme. I'm not sure what I would use for the former but I know they are debating it in their mailing lists. For email/calendar there is Mozilla. That's not perfect either, but it's the only browser I use.

    I recently gave a copy to a nurse at work who wanted MS office but was not going to pay that sort of price. I installed OOO on her laptop and she took it home. The only verbal assistance I gave was a reminder to save things to .DOC .XLS or whatever format when bringing files to work, or emailing them to people.

    I asked how it was going after a couple of weeks. The reply was "it just works".

    --
    I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
    1. Re:Rubbish by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's simply not as polished a product. Here's one quick example that drives me absolutely batty.

      Open a blank spreadsheet in OpenOffice. Type "Column 1", hit tab. Type "Column 2", hit tab. Type "Column 3". Hit Enter. The cursor drops down one row (C3). Do the same thing in Excel. When you hit Enter, the cursor drops down one row AND moves left to the first column where you started typing (in this case, C1). If you're entering rows of data, a VERY common operation, it's perfect. With OO, you have to reach over and use the arrow keys to get back to the first row.

      Now, admittedly this isn't THAT big a deal. But it's annoying. And there are a whole host of little things like this that I could add. Together, they add up.

    2. Re:Rubbish by yuri+benjamin · · Score: 1

      It's simply not as polished a product.

      Conceded.
      The example you gave would drive me batty too.
      But considering I spent NZ$0.00 on it, I can live with the minor irritations.
      As for the troll earlier in this thread that claimed it only prints Courier 8 - ROTFLMAO!
      With OOo & CUPS I regularly create PDFs that make colleagues go "wow!"
      I got the job I have now as a result of a PDF resume emailed to a recruiting firm. The newspaper advert asked for a word doc, but the pdf opened fine on the recruiter's PC apparently, coz I got an interview and she had a print-out of my CV with her at the interview.

      My wife uses OOo on her Mdk 9.1 laptop - she's not a techie - and I have set the "save-as" defaults to .doc & .xls for her.

      No problem. I expect the bavarian civil servants at Munich city hall will have no problems either.

      BTW - it prints fine with CUPS. All out of the box with an Mdk 9.1 standard default install - no tweaking or configuring required.
      Every font. Every size. Inserted graphics objects too.

      --
      You make the mistake of thinking you can educate the fundamental stupidity out of people. You can't.
    3. Re:Rubbish by whereiswaldo · · Score: 1

      The most annoying thing about switching software - this is not OSS specific - is that it breaks in places you are accustomed to having in working order. On the other hand, it works in places your old software didn't. That's just the way it goes.

      If you want to be proactive, file a bug. It's easy. Maybe someone will look at it and fix it. Or maybe you could pay someone to fix it. Hmm, I'm betting you could lump your annoyances together and pay someone $500 to fix them all, instead of paying $500 for each copy of MSOffice and more for future upgrades.

      An example I can provide that just happened today - I switched to from Win2k to Red Hat 9 on one of my boxes and instead of only being able to burn at 12x reliably, I can burn at 24x and still have 100% buffer continuously full (eg. I can probably go even higher!). That's going to save me a lot of time.

    4. Re:Rubbish by heironymouscoward · · Score: 1

      It's simply not as polished a product.
      In many ways it is far more polished. You may get used to an overburdened UI, but it's a tenet of design that the best UI features are the ones you don't see and don't have to work through. OOo wins this game hands-down, with a slim and yet totally complete UI. MSOffice simply adds on layer upon layer of grunk, without fixing basic issues like outline numbering which (after about 10 years of updates) still have the same bugs in.

      I've used MSOffice since MSWord 5.0 in DOS, and when I switched to OOo a year or two ago, all I could feel was gentle relief as things started to work as I expected, and documents behaved "normally".

      Since then, OOo is simply getting better each time. With the "Export to PDF" function, I create beautiful PDFs (and everything that we send to clients and suppliers is via PDF) with one button, and avoid yet one more nasty layer of Acrobat software (which I happily and gratefully uninstalled).

      To say that OOo is, like many OSS products, unpolished and unrefined is simply false. OSS is in general significantly more polished than commercial software in ways that matter, and significantly less burdened by checklist features that no-one uses.

      This is so obvious that I wonder how you can even repeat the troll.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature
  24. MS in Denial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    One of the items that often gets ignored in Microsoft's thinking is this: They were a small company with many competitors and Operating Systems were many and varied and had their niche; MS has changed the world by the proliferation of its operating system(s) and made it part of the INFRASTRUCTURE on which society relies. Once you control the infrastructure, you can't behave like MS currently is behaving - or the people and Governments will look for alternatives.

    They changed the world, but unfortunately, they can't change themselves and herein lies the biggest of their problems.

    The last statement in the article "But the signs are that many of them have already made up their minds." is very telling. Once you have known MS's past behavior, you know why they made up their minds.

    1. Re:MS in Denial by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [Off topic comment on moderation: The article was posted by me at +1, went down to 0 and back to +4, it is an interesting study for the moderators and people doing research into ./ moderation. Someone is doing such research, right? :) ].

      -srr

  25. Redundant? No one actually reads the article... by base2op · · Score: 1
    City officials said the decision was a matter of principle: the municipality wanted to control its technological destiny. It did not wish to place the functioning of government in the hands of a commercial vendor with proprietary standards which is accountable to shareholders rather than to citizens.


    Bitchslapped by Muenchen!
  26. Better link to the article by vinsci · · Score: 1
    Governments like open-source software, but Microsoft does not - printer friendly

    The original link in the /. story goes to a page with some ad(s), however, the ads never materialize from the 3rd party server, which blocks the story from being shown at all! Control that ad server and censor what The Economist publishes on the web ;-). Smart people use CSS instead, not HTML tables.

    --

    Trusted Computing FAQ | Free Dawit Isaak!
    1. Re:Better link to the article by Red+Avenger · · Score: 1

      Not when you have Netscape 4.x users...

  27. That's the type of article you get... by ispel · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    when you don't have Microsoft ads plastered all over your page (like some people).

    On the topic of MS ads on Slashdot: /. is a whore.

    1. Re:That's the type of article you get... by sniggly · · Score: 2, Interesting

      MS happens to be one of the largest advertizers on the economist.

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
    2. Re:That's the type of article you get... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      " MS happens to be one of the largest advertizers on the economist."

      Is that out of the goodness of MS heart, or is it because The Economist is one of the de facto financial authorities in Europe and the rest of the world; and thus, a MUST PLACE to advertise?

      Just wondering...

    3. Re:That's the type of article you get... by sniggly · · Score: 1

      Sure it is, I just happened to respond to the parent post which insinuated that if MS doesn't advertise on a site it would have objective information. I'm an avid reader of the economist and they're not like that.

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
  28. Re:How to be an American by dogen · · Score: 0, Troll

    i guess your a islam... so its obvious what this so-called criticism is worth...

  29. Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    "Obviously" he doesn't run a business... maybe. But you "obviously" don't run a government. I work for one. It's non-profit. So much for your "bottom line" theory.

    Microsoft, and you, shall both adapt. Or become extinct. Just like Munich, we are going to pay more money to have interoperability. Because it's cheaper and has better ROI in the long run.

  30. No, YOU don't get it by JimmytheGeek · · Score: 1

    For organizations of any significant capitalization, IT is a strategic asset. Having control over that asset is pretty much the only sound strategy. Being told where you want to go today is not a good thing. Being locked into a predatory vendor is not a good thing. Especially when they can change the licensing at a whim to keep it just under the pain threshold to dump them.

    1. Re:No, YOU don't get it by ddimas · · Score: 1
      Yassou patriotis!

      I have been told over and over for years at many companies that single sourcing your suppliers is a good thing. I am presently unemployed because my employers went broke...

  31. The Unnoticed Contradiction? by sean23007 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Microsoft and its allies have sought to discredit open-source software, likening its challenge of proprietary ownership to communism and suggesting that its openness makes it insecure and therefore vulnerable to terrorism.

    More strikingly, Microsoft has been imitating the ways of the open-source "community". Last year, the firm launched a "shared source" initiative that allows certain approved governments and large corporate clients to gain access to most of the Windows software code, though not to modify it. This is intended, in part, to assuage the fears of foreign governments that Windows might contain secret security backdoors.

    So, they're saying that the openness of the code makes it less secure and vulnerable to terrorism, while at the same time opening their source to prove that it isn't secure... If they willingly admit that open code can be verified as more secure, how can they accuse Open Source software as being inherently less secure because it is open? And how come nobody calls them on that?

    --

    Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
    1. Re:The Unnoticed Contradiction? by tarquin_fim_bim · · Score: 1

      No, the fact that you can alter it to suit your own needs does. Nice troll you got me.

    2. Re:The Unnoticed Contradiction? by sean23007 · · Score: 1

      Please explain to us which part of my post was a troll, as opposed to the final 28% of yours. That would be greatly appreciated.

      --

      Lack of eloquence does not denote lack of intelligence, though they often coincide.
    3. Re:The Unnoticed Contradiction? by Hatta · · Score: 1

      Who's supposed to "call them on that"? The Economist is simply reporting microsofts opinion. To argue against it would be unbecoming an (ostensibly) unbiased news source.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:The Unnoticed Contradiction? by brian+woolstrum · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It isn't the only thing that nobody calls them on (at least not publicly)

      How about what can they do to prove the code their showing is really the source to what they are shipping?

      For being vulnerable to terrorism, (through virtual channels) how many spies work inside of Microsoft? There doesn't seem to be any agency of any government on the planet that can keep out foreign spies, why would anybody think that there aren't any inside of Microsoft.

      Another potential vulnerability, what is Microsoft's build process? How many locations can build Windows and the various update patches? For all we know, maybe it only gets built in Redmond. If that is the case, what would have happened if instead of taking out the WTC, they took out MS Headquarters and with it the ability to create windows patches. Here is another sticky little scenario: right before unleashing a few nasty worms and viruses, knock out power to the nortwestern portion of the US for a week or so.

    5. Re:The Unnoticed Contradiction? by BillsPetMonkey · · Score: 1

      I think this is the fundamental argument of proprietary vs. open software. The contradiction (and therefore hypocrisy) is apparent, but only when you look for it.

      --
      "It's not your information. It's information about you" - John Ford, Vice President, Equifax
    6. Re:The Unnoticed Contradiction? by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1
      Hmm, I'm not sure that unbiasedness and noticing logical contradictions should exclude each other. Noticing logical fallacies do not need arguing against, just noticing them should be enough.

      If they were to say 'See, microsoft is lying', that would be biased, however noticing that 'These two positions of microsoft seem to contradict each other' only shows that the reporter can actually think logically. That this is missed in the article does indeed show that thinking logically is rare in itself in journalism.

      And no, using logic is not expressing an opinion. In fact, you can patent this nowadays.

  32. While this, here in Brazil... by dark-br · · Score: 3, Informative

    The Brazilian government plans to migrate from
    Windows to Linux 80% of all computers in state institutions and state-owned
    businesses, informed the daily newspaper "Valor". This will be a gradual
    migration, that will begin with a pilot project in one ministry and which will
    be completed over a period of three years, according to official sources cited
    by the financial daily.

    The goal of the migration is to save money by finding alternatives to
    expensive proprietary licenses. Highlighting the gradual phase-in approach
    that the Brazilian government has adopted, Sergio Amadeu de Silveira, the
    president of the National Institute of Information Technology, stated that "We
    are not just going to do a hasty migration". He proceeded to say that "our
    main concern is the security and the trust of our citizens. The biggest
    resistance to any change comes from the existing cultural inertia".

    The government, De Silveira explained, created two weeks ago the "Chamber for
    the Implementation of Software Libre" to pave the way for the upcoming
    migration.

    A small part of the 2,095 million reals (about USD $700 million) that the
    Brazilian government budgeted for information technology spending goes to
    Microsoft, owner of the Windows OS. The government's decision to adopt Linux,
    according to De Silveira, will boost the popularity of the operating system
    among businesses and consumers. Moreover, it will foster the production of
    local software and "democratize access to knowledge", said De Silveira.

    1. Re:While this, here in Brazil... by Daengbo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Similarly, The ICT Ministry of Thailand has recently commited to 50% use of Linux in gov't within 3 years. They also have a low cost computer program, which comes preloaded with Linux.

  33. It wasn't Truman by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 4, Funny

    "What is good for the country is good for General Motors, and what's good for General Motors is good for the country." -- Former GM President Charles Erwin Wilson, 1952.

    Wilson later became Eisenhower's Secretary of Defense (1953-57). Sometimes a good quotation gets in the way of good history.

    1. Re:It wasn't Truman by Anonymous+Struct · · Score: 2, Funny

      And don't forget, everybody has a share :)

    2. Re:It wasn't Truman by Jodka · · Score: 1

      In fact the actual quote is:

      "...for years I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa."

      This brief history of Wilson's role as Secretary of Defense sets the record straight:

      Wilson's nomination sparked a major controversy during his confirmation hearings before the Senate Armed Services Committee... During the hearings, when asked if as secretary of defense he could make a decision adverse to the interests of General Motors, Wilson answered affirmatively but added that he could not conceive of such a situation "because for years I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa." Later this statement was often garbled when quoted, suggesting that Wilson had said simply, "What's good for General Motors is good for the country."
      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    3. Re:It wasn't Truman by Jeremy+Erwin · · Score: 1

      Ah yes, thank you.
      The quotation does take on a somewhat different meaning,when placed into the context of someone, at his confirmation hearings, trying to defend his largish financial interests in General Motors. At the time, this statement created somewhat of a uproar, as GM was a large defense contractor.

      Still, it was most definitely not Harry S. Truman

  34. Open source anti-competitive? I think not by Skapare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft thinks open source is anti-competitive? That's certainly not the case. There are multiple vendors of Linux, including big players like IBM, Novell, Redhat, SGI, Sun, and SuSE. And there are multitudes of small players. And if Linux isn't the best for you, there are other fully interoperable alternatives such as FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD that are open source, and still more like AIX and Solaris, that are proprietary. Looks like plenty of competition to me.

    The problem is Microsoft doesn't want to be in a posititon of having to choose between losing sales or losing a lock on customers. Even if Microsoft were to have been an early adopter of Linux, they would never be able to gain a total market domination in it. And they know this. Microsoft's big fear is having to scale back to what a competitive market really means.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
  35. Notice this microserfs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    That said, open-source is no panacea, and there are many areas where proprietary products are still far superior.

    Please notice the word "still"...

  36. Governments Are Wise by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    It's obviously a good thing that governments are mandating the use of OSS. Thus, OSS must be superior. Consider, for example, some technologies that the US government has mandated:

    - Ada over all other programming languages
    - ISO OSI protocols over the TCP/IP suite
    - Interlaced HDTV

    An official government stamp of approval on Linux can only be viewed as evidence that it's the best technical solution available.

    1. Re:Governments Are Wise by jc42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's obviously a good thing that governments are mandating the use of OSS.</sarcasm>

      Actually, there have been very few cases of governments mandating linux or any OSS. Rather, most of the stories have been about governments declaring that such software will be considered. This is something very different.

      And one could argue that the world is in a sad state when we need laws requiring that governments consider more than just one or two products. But fact is, we do need this, or in most cases the purchasing departments would only consider a very short list. And if you hadn't greased the right palms, your product wouldn't be considered at all, no matter how good or cheap it might be.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  37. Well this is news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Looks like the Economist gets a -1 Redundant.

    What they didnt really point out is the fact that Microsoft is the top soft money contributor for their sector. Plus countless more to state government campaigns.

    Microsoft will advance these views next week in Rome, where it is hosting the latest in a series of conferences for government leaders.

    Wait you mean that microsoft is comping politicians to a free vacation in Rome.

    1. Re:Well this is news. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      In europe for a politician to be paid by a company to visit one of its presentations in order to influence the political decision making process is seen as corrupt. People can and do loose their jobs for accepting freebies which come with strings attached.

  38. Stop the FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Generally when the government talks about open source systems, they talk about a vendor, capable of doing installation, maintenance, deployment and support of the systems. The government assigns a certain budget to such activities and generally announces a tender on who can do the job the cheapest way.

    Guess what - Microsoft is just another vendor, capable of bringing its own technologies, servers, operating systems, database systems and end-user desktops. For a price. RedHat is just another vendor, and so is Novell, Sun, and, yeah, SCO:-) In Asia and Europe there's frequently a variety of other vendors, doing localizations of Linux and offering their own products.

    If Microsoft can provide the cheapest solution, why not? The goal of the government is to save money. If RedHat/SuSe/SCO/Novell/IBM can provide a cheaper solution, then so be it, and they will probably win the tender.

    I suppose the headline RedHat tries to undermine proprietary software would just not be that sexy on Slashdot.

    1. Re:Stop the FUD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, Microsoft is just another vendor

      But In order to provide what government need, it need to be open standard, allow government to switch to other product easier later.

      If Microsoft will provide the open standard format of .doc and . ppt file. Maybe MS Office will have a chance in the future.

    2. Re:Stop the FUD by AchilleTalon · · Score: 3, Interesting
      The goal of the government is not to save money. It's to provide basic services common to all citizen, like justice administration, vote laws to regulate relations between entities, provide security, education, health care system, collect garbages, etc.

      And, BTW, doing it at the best price.

      So, there is absolutely no contradiction in the mission of a government making mandatory OSS for its administration and the price tag. Making OSS a requirement is not necessarily related to the sole price consideration. As the example of Munich is showing us.

      --
      Achille Talon
      Hop!
  39. Ahem, Microsoft is NOT Free Market !!! by argoff · · Score: 2, Informative

    Microsoft would not exist in the way that it does without a particular type of government granted monopoly called - copyright. It is not like other property rights which have natural limits in supply and demand, it is an atrificial one where Microsoft controlls all the supply. It is not true to free market philosophy any more than slavery was in the 1850's. Yeah they bought and sold those slaves like commodities, yeah the economic strength of the plantation system rested on slavery, yeah the business men who ran it were universally considered educated and ethical - and just doing normal honest business - but it was all bullshit. Slavery had to go, it had always been a burden and was always far more about controll rather than property - but as society entered the industrial age our society could no longer bear the social restrictions allowed by slavery.

    Well now we are entering into the information age, and copyrights are looking far more like an untenable and eternally unenforcable restriction every day and less like a property right every day. They are not about property, commerce, freedom, or markets - but controll, and so is Microsoft and the other's like them such as the RIAA who have held themselves accountable to the same forces.

    1. Re:Ahem, Microsoft is NOT Free Market !!! by the+gnat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Nice troll. Free markets do not imply the complete lack of government regulation; the government does not favor or promote any particular party, but certainly may set ground rules. I suspect even the most diehard economic conservatives would admit that we need institutions like the SEC to prevent fraud. Much of the modern concept of capitalism and free markets was developed in opposition to the mercantilist system, where the government dictated the terms by which the marketplace operated. A "liberal" economic system, on the other hand, does not have artificial barriers to entry. (Yes, you too may produce a copyrighted work of software, and there's no price to do so.)

      In the absence of copyrights, companies such as Microsoft would have found vastly more restrictive ways to keep their products proprietary. We would, no doubt, be using non-open PCs that required a vendor license, and would require a special personalized dongle for every single application. You'd see product activation schemes that would make Windows XP look pathetically simple. Massive organizations such as Microsoft would be able to finance such a regime, but small vendors trying to get started would not, and without copyright they would be at the mercy of bigger fish.

      In the context of government adoption, I don't see any incompatibility between free markets and official adoption of open source. The government, as a paying customer, may select whichever criteria it wants for purchasing software. A non-free market approach would be to mandate that all software imported to that country must be open-source, or that all software bought by the government must be made in that country. So Microsoft's complaints are pretty pathetic, particularly since they don't address the very serious problem of designed incompatability and non-standard formats.

      Your comparison to slavery is particularly offensive, by the way. No one is forcing you to listend to pop music or use Microsoft products, so stop whining about how The System is trying to keep you down.

    2. Re:Ahem, Microsoft is NOT Free Market !!! by argoff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The flaw with your argument is the assumption that rights, especially property rights, come about because of government, or derive from the consent of the governed. This is not true, the only thing that derives from the consent of the governed is the right to govern, otherwise the entire purpose of government is to secure rights that already exist independently of government and independently of social opinions. It is bacially a clever way of saying that what is right and wrong, good and bad, property and not property - is subjective. Sorry, rights are not voodoo.

      Your comparison to slavery is particularly offensive, by the way. No one is forcing you to listend to pop music or use Microsoft products, so stop whining about how The System is trying to keep you down.

      There seems to be this attitude that the suffering and losses of slaves was only something that happened "back then", was only meaningful "back then", and doesn't apply to us because we are too much in the "modern" age. I find it offensive that in the name of civilized society people just blow off, and treat as worthless, all that suffering like it could never have any pratical or meaningful value in the information age.

      You're right no one forces me to buy Microsoft products, but make no mistake - people are being forced and coerced by Microsoft and the RIAA. That's like saying that if you don't like slavery - don't own slaves !! It was a crock in that context back then, and it is a crock in this one now.

    3. Re:Ahem, Microsoft is NOT Free Market !!! by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

      Microsoft would not exist in the way that it does without a particular type of government granted monopoly called - copyright.

      Not quite. Although copyrights are government granted monopolies, and the antithesis of free markets, they are not the basis of Microsoft's monopoly.

      Go reread the MS EULA. Surprise! It's a EULA! It's not based on copyright law at all. Why? Because it's a EULA! It's a freaking contract! And contracts are fully acceptable in free markets. In a world without copyrights, there would still be contracts. While I think that click-through agreements are inherently bogus, that does not mean that there are other ways to ensure agreement before software use.

      So this little thing called "the user agreeing not to copy the software of their own free will" gives Microsoft a monopoly over the operating system known as Windows. But surely it didn't create it's monopoly on the desktop at large? Of course not. There's also the OEM contracts. That did a lot.

      There's also the factor known as "the defacto market standard". This is a tough one for geeks to swallow, but essentially it means that the marketplace wants a standard OS, and Windows was in the right place at the right time and at the right price to be it. It might have been Solaris or the Mac, but the price was not right. It might have been OS/2, but it didn't arrive in time and was still pricier than Windows.

      Like it or not, Windows achieved its monopoly through the free market.

      --
      Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    4. Re:Ahem, Microsoft is NOT Free Market !!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The free market contracts I know are two way binding agreements. That's why I can't send you a $100 bill in an envelope marked "by opening this you owe me $200" and legally expect to recover.

      I think that Microsoft did do a lot of good things, especially considering that they were less restrictive of their developers than anyone else at the time, and that they broke the IBM strangle hold on a GUI opperating system (IBM was trying to hold things back at the time to keep GUI's a mainframe thing). But I think if Microsoft had to bear the costs and responsibility of enforcing and creating real contracts and controlls, as compaired to the rest of society being expected to enforce it for them now, things would be a lot different. Microsoft would probably be complementing Linux, like the BSD's, rather than diametrically opposed to it as it is now. In fact, the BSD's could have had the prominence that Linux enjoys today. Who knows, we will never know.

  40. It's not a trade secret. by hackwrench · · Score: 1

    It's out in the general public. That's what gets me about calling CSS a trade secret.

  41. Proprietary is not independent (obviously). by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 0, Redundant


    A government that uses proprietary software is not an independent government.

    Who do you think was using the many, many security vulnerabilities in Microsoft software before they were made public?

  42. Re:I think Minnie Mouse is sexy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Or does that make me gay?

    Not if he's dressed like this

  43. Mixed feelings by stwrtpj · · Score: 2, Insightful

    As much as an advocate as I am for open source software, and a supporter of free software though not an outright fanatic about it, I have mixed feelings about the mandating of open source in government or any other area.

    The problem with mandates like this is that it, in a way, sanctions monopoly. Monopoly by open source/free software may not sound like such a bad thing, but I personally have a bad reaction to anything that presents a choice as my only choice.

    Example: There are forms of pornography that I find particularly repulsive (not talking obviously illegal stuff like pedophilia, but just things between consenting adults that would make my hair curl looking at it). However, that doesn't give me the right to mandate that YOU can't look at it. Moreover, if someone on high decreed "you can no longer look at this", I would fight it. Even though I have no intention of looking at this stuff, I made that choice, not someone else, and I would fight for the continued right to make that choice.

    I use open source software almost exclusively. My desktop runs Linux. My wife made the choice to try Linux and now runs it exclusively on her laptop. But that's our choice, not someone else's mandate. Yes, I would love to see the whole world go open source. But it has to happen by choice, not by mandate.

    --
    Karma: Frotzed (mostly due to the Frobozz Magic Karma Company)
    1. Re:Mixed feelings by the+gnat · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem with mandates like this is that it, in a way, sanctions monopoly.

      How? It's not like IBM or RedHat is the only company in the field. An open-source mandate of the sort being discussed only makes certain requirements of software being purchased by the government. Classified installations have their own requirements for software - is it creating a monopoly environment for the DoD to dictate that software engineering must be done in Ada, or that OSes pass security certification for specific uses? Microsoft would be free to compete in the same arena if it open-sourced Windows.

      I don't much care whether governments require open-source. Like many other people here, however, I do very strongly care about them requiring open formats so that I can use whatever software I want - but by your standards, that too would be creating monopoly conditions.

    2. Re:Mixed feelings by sniggly · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Mandating open source is like mandating tax paying people and entities to open their books so that the government can check it transparently. Even if MS has shared source how can that assuage the fears of a country like China if they can't compile that source themselves. The map is not the land, neither is the source necessarily the same source as what was compiled to create that particular application.

      I believe that it's the duty of democratic governments to mandate open source and open standards on its own hardware and in its own publications. This so that the government process can be audited by parliament instruments (meaning it's essential to the seperation of powers in the digital age) and so that all citizens and companies can interface with government without having to buy support for closed standards.

      --
      Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
    3. Re:Mixed feelings by Sigurd_Fafnersbane · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The problem with mandates like this is that it, in a way, sanctions monopoly

      As long as everybody is entitled to participate I dont see how such a mandate can be said to sanction a monopoly.

      The customer defines the rules, and in this case the rules are that the customer wants to purchase a solution where it gets full control of the application after the purchase. The government might want to be able to maintain the application indefinitely and would like to be able to award contracts for maintenance and up-grades in an open tender at a later date.

      No-one bars Microsoft, Oracle, SAP, etc. from participating. The problem for M$ and enemies (I couldn't really write M$ and friends, could I?) is that currently they do not want to participate under those terms.

      If M$ had offered Munich a solution using Gnu/BSD and OpenOffice it is not impossible that they would have won the tender. If Microsoft had offered to improve OpenOffice import/export filters as part of the deal, they might even have had a very good chance of winning since they should be able to write better filters than anybody else, having access to MOffice sourcecode.

      M$ did not want to offer such a solution though since it would further undermine its monopoly.

      When your market goes away, you as a company have to evolve in order to survive. Successfull companies are the ones that are good at adapting. 15 years ago IBM had 150000 employees who were very good at selling typewriters. In 1992, a Finnish company (Nokia) was a conglomerate with a business model of producing toilet paper, pulp and rubber boots and selling these products to the Soviet Union in exchange for iron ore, oil, berries etc. Nokia could then sell these products in the west for profit. When they closed the Soviet Union, this business model evaporated overnight. Both companies have succeded in not only surviving but also to thrive and move themselves into new fields of business.

      I wonder whether M$ will be able to reinvent itself as successfully when its market goes away.

    4. Re:Mixed feelings by rollingcalf · · Score: 1

      None of these governments are mandating what private individuals or companies must use. The government mandating what software must be used within the government is like IBM mandating what will be used within IBM. Surely the government must be able to choose what it uses within itself.

      Ok, well you might say that when the government mandates open source software within itself, businesses and individuals will be forced to use similar software to communicate data and documents with the government. True, but that would still be the case if the government used Microsoft's or any other proprietary software. Choosing open source places a smaller burden on the public when it comes to obtaining compatible software to communicate with the government.

      --
      ---------
      There is inferior bacteria on the interior of your posterior.
  44. Re:I think Minnie Mouse is sexy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No, but I think you might be quacking up!

  45. Re:How to be an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    i guess your a islam...
    Nice job following rule 3.

  46. Governments will use Linux for security reasons by big-magic · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Although governments will mention many reasons for using Linux or *BSD, I think one of the primary drivers will be security. I'm not talking about security in terms of viruses or trojans, but about national security.

    Let's face it. Most governments don't trust each other as far as they can throw the Statue of Liberty. Even allied countries spy upon each other. So, you know it must scare the hell out of most countries to get a large part of their critical computer infrastructure from a company in foreign country. Especially when they can't even see the source code. I know that if Microsoft was located in Europe that the US government would worry about this. I have no idea whether anyone has ever tampered with Windows code for spying. But you know the paranoid security agencies in most countries will worry about this. And nothing that Microsoft can say will stop them from worrying about this. Even if Microsoft gave them the source code and they built their own Windows code, the compiler could be altered to secretly add malicious code. One of the Turing award lectures (I think it was Ken Thompson) talked about such bugging of compilers.

    Of course, using a free operation system will bring other benefits. And from a public relations standpoint, those are the reasons they will admit publically. But let's face it. A lot of this comes down to national security concerns. Even if the various governments don't admit it.

    1. Re:Governments will use Linux for security reasons by Strudelkugel · · Score: 1

      A snip from a recent Wall Street Journal article Sep 10, 2003: (registration req.)

      China Attempts to Set New High-Tech Standards

      China surprised the wireless industry three years ago by declaring it would create its own technical standard for third-generation mobile phones. Then it said it was going to develop its own format for digital television. And six weeks ago, it announced it was creating a different audio and video standard for the next wave of DVD players and videogame players...

      ...however, in other areas, China is looking to set the standard even beyond its own borders by licensing its standard at a lower cost to competitors...

      <sarcasm> Of *course* they are doing this for the good of the global marketplace! Just like developing their own processor and distro of Linux!</sarcasm>

      Maybe I'm being too skeptical here, but government mandates are inherently industrial policy. Industrial policy does NOT mean "May the best product succeed." It means "The product that most benefits officials in gov *will* succeed." Just look at agricultural policy for an idea of where this could go. (Here's a nice bit of dairy case law as an example) Seems to me each government will ultimately try to make its software base *the* standard, which will likely lead to interoperabilty problems. As for security, imagine the fun governments will have with IP and DRM once they control the standards. What a great way to control the media. Then again, maybe I am being alarmist, and China really is a worker's paradise. But, seems to me that private enterprise has a much better track record of supplying what people want. OSS is fine in the hands of private enterprise. Watch out when it becomes part of industrial policy, though. Having governments drive the OSS community is not a good thing, IMHO.

      --
      Imagine how much harder physics would be if electrons had feelings! -Feynman, maybe
  47. One part I didn't understand. by eniu!uine · · Score: 3, Interesting

    According to the article, IDC said total government software expenditure worldwide was $17b, but Microsoft's share was only 2.8b. What other software are they buying?

    1. Re:One part I didn't understand. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think M$ only has domination in desktop.
      And government not only using desktop computers.

    2. Re:One part I didn't understand. by An+Onerous+Coward · · Score: 1

      Oracle takes its own big chunk as well. Just look at the whole debacle in California (the state dramatically overpaid for licenses, I think to the tune of 900 million). But I would guess that the vast majority of software expenditures are for customized software.

      --

      You want the truthiness? You can't handle the truthiness!

    3. Re:One part I didn't understand. by tuffy · · Score: 1
      What other software are they buying?

      A big chunk of that $17b is in-house stuff, surely. "Expenditure" probably applies to government paid programmers also.

      --

      Ita erat quando hic adveni.

  48. Re:Those damned commies by C10H14N2 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Plus, we'd be indirectly supporting the effort of another, possibly communist country.

    Shit, so much for using Linux. Damned scandanavian socialist pinko bastards are just taking over the world. First they gave us reliable celluar phones, then reliable OS kernels. If we don't stop them, they might bring us other scourges like affordable healthcare and pensions. They must be stopped.

    Next thing you know will be trading with China. Oh, wait... In other news, the Senate just voted to allow Americans to travel to Cuba. The red hordes are coming. Trust no one.

  49. Economy 102 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Don't break the law unless you have $ to pay off the neccesary people.

  50. Economist starts to get it by sniggly · · Score: 1
    The economist is hardly mainstream, it's certainly not a geek edition but caters for pretty much just as niche an audience. Still it's nice to see something else from them other than last months article on how the solution to viruses and worms such as blaster is to install a firewall and virus scanner. Not a word about alternatives such as macosx or linux. Not even saying run something other than IE/Outlook..

    I think of them pretty highly when they're talking about the economy and politics. In fact it's hard to find a publication that's better. But when it comes to software and the computer biz they need an education. I'm glad to see they've started to understand.

    --
    Of those to whom much is given, much is required.
  51. Re:Who cares... you'll only end up helping open so by Dunark · · Score: 1

    I mean really. Every time a large corporation tries to do something like this, it eventually backfires on them.

    I wonder if Microsoft's big "win" in the antitrust case isn't backfiring? Sure, Microsoft got off practically scott-free, but this showed the world that the U.S. government won't control it's unruly child. I think other countries now realize that they have to pay more attention to protecting their own interests because the U.S. goverment sure isn't going to.

  52. Re:Bye Bye Birdie by Hatta · · Score: 1

    Try building it yourself.

    --
    Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
  53. Re:Those damned commies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    then reliable OS kernels

    I thought OpenBSD was from Canada?

  54. Time for a new argument! by soloport · · Score: 1

    If you use special formatting that doesn't display well in OpenOffice, chances are, it won't display well on other people's copy of MS Office -- unless they have the same OS and same Office versions and patches as you do.

    If you're using MS Office XP, imagine what the guy with Office 97 sees, or even Office 2000. Not pretty, too much of the time! Same is true going the other direction, version-wise.

    The same may become true of OpenOffice's legacy file formats, as well, some day. Who knows. The point is, that's really a piss poor argument (and is getting really old) for not converting to an open-standards-based office suite. (Although I can't really tell what your point was -- I'm just tired of hearing that same lame argument).

  55. Excellent article by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    The Economist has an excellent article about Microsoft attempting to undermine the Open Source and Free Software movements.

    And by "excellent" you mean pro-open source.

  56. Re:Those damned commies by alex_ant · · Score: 1
    Next thing you know will be trading with China. Oh, wait... In other news, the Senate just voted to allow Americans to travel to Cuba.

    As long as they aren't allowed back...

  57. Governments *should* act on principle by The+Revolutionary · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Inevitably, many are saying that while it is fine if the government uses or funds the best tool for the job, it would be wrong for the government to act on principle.

    These are principles:

    Every citizen has a right to utilize and benefit from electronic government services from the privacy of their own homes, without having to agree to an invasive and limiting EULA to acquire a "license", which can be revoked at the whim of a private corporation. The software tools which realize this right must be understandable, reliable, secure, auditable, and accessible.

    Every citizen has a legitimate expectation to access to the wealth of enabling information available electronically, for education, for health, for justice, to better themselves and help to provide a better future for their children and their children's children, in the privacy of their own homes. This access must not be only on the whim of a private corporation on the string of an invasive and limiting EULA. The software tools which realize this access must be understandable, reliable, secure, auditable, and accessible.

    The list goes on...

    We, through our government, have an obligation to, as we are able, fund the realization of these rights and legitimate expectations of our fellow citizens through the development, distribution, and deployment of Free Open Source Software.

    No longer must private entities be permitted to benefit from holding back -- monopolizing -- that right and legitimate expectation possessed by every modern person to better himself or herself, and his or her children through the increase and greater securing of knowledge, education, privacy, skill, and generally acecess to those services and goods each funds with his or her hard earned tax dollars, in this age of great information.

    There is no longer any excuse.

  58. MS's "shared source" is flawed. by mark-t · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Supposedly, one of the major reasons that Microsoft had for initiating their "shared source" system was to alleviate fears that the software may contain backdoors or some such thing.

    This reasoning is fatally flawed.

    Since the shared source system does not allow any organization which is given access to the source to see the *ENTIRE* codebase, nor does it grant priviledge to modify the codebase (which implies, in turn, that one cannot recompile it for their own system), how can any person outside MS realistically even tell that the source code that Microsoft has provided actually directly corresponds to the operating system running on that particular personal computer?

    The answer is that they can't. And frankly, if a company was going to be deceptive enough to put back doors into their software in the first place, you can bet your privates they'd be deceptive enough to lie about what their source code was.

    I'm not saying that Microsoft has actually done this, but they are pretending that this "shared source" system makes them look accountable, and it really doesn't.

    At least their reasoning for making the CE source available is more plausable.

    1. Re:MS's "shared source" is flawed. by jc42 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Furthermore, to see MS's "shared source", you have to sign a NDA. This means that if you find some serious problem, you can't warn their other marks - uh, I mean customers - about it.

      And because of this, they can fix it at their leisure. Or not. Or fix it for you, and leave it in for selected other customers.

      If you're responsible for a government agency's security, you really should be aware of this, or you're not competent for your position.

      --
      Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
    2. Re:MS's "shared source" is flawed. by boudie · · Score: 0

      As well, if one was dim enough to sign their NDA, then five years down the road wrote some program which gained popularity, they would try to say you stole it from them. I'd like to see Bill Gates go down just to see how a rat acts when he's cornered. Then after they've been consigned to the scrap heap, they get bought out by Apple ;^)

  59. HA HA NINENINE YOU GOT PWNED by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    admit it, you smelly turd. you lost the argument, and your stupidity is now exposed like goatse's protruding ass.

    hawhawhahwwhwhwhwahhwhwhhwhw

  60. Surprising technical awareness for a weekly rag by Tom+Christiansen · · Score: 1
    I'm torn on whether to be surprised by this--the Economist has run stories before (there was one last issue on the SCO deal) that seem to be subtly, quietly favoring GNU/Linux.
    Running some simple searches on their site, since the beginning of this year alone, The Economist has mentioned Linux 16 times in its stories, 84 times if you let them sift back till 1997. A search for open source also turns up some great articles.

    Here are a couple other, older Economist citations:

    • From a story called "Hackers Rule" from February 18th, 1999:
      Companies using the Internet often rely on open-source software for mission-critical tasks. Yahoo!, the worlds most popular website, uses an open-source operating system called FreeBSD, a web-server program called Apache and the programming language Perl. Without collectively written code, the Internet would disintegrate: Apache runs on 53% of all web servers, and Sendmail routes 78% of all e-mail.
    • From a story called A lingua franca for the Internet from September 20th, 2001
      These languages rose to prominence largely because they are so flexible and adaptable to the needs of the Internet. Examples include Perl, a language that can be used to communicate between a web server and its clients, and Python, a language used, among other things, for managing discussion forums on the Internet. Other examples with more awkward names include Tcl/Tk, awk and C Shell. There is even a scripting language called JavaScripta clever marketing ploy, since it is linguistically unrelated to Java.

    Those two are interesting, among other reasons, for the technical precision in percentages (I said it was precise; I didn't say it was accurate :-), the awareness of non-Linux open-source operating systems, and, well, that little jab about JavaScript's (re)naming being a "clever marketing ploy"--in other words, a deceit, by any other name.

    If you read over the various articles the searches pull up, it sure seems that the Economist is a lot more on the ball than say, Time or Newsweek.

    --tom

    (PS: You might take quick exception to their characterizations of Perl and Python, but a reread will show that those were just example application areas cited.)

    1. Re:Surprising technical awareness for a weekly rag by timrichardson · · Score: 1

      Subscribing to the Economist is one of the best things I ever did (subscriptions includes total access to the electronic archives)

  61. Developers == customers by jpetts · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Quote from the article: Jason Matusow, Microsoft's shared-source manager, says that developing software requires leadership and an understanding of customer needs?both areas where proprietary-software companies excel.

    This is one of the factors that ensure that Microsoft will ultimately lose the battle against open source: in many cases, the developer is the customer, and in every case the customer can become the developer. No proprietary-software company can win against this. Why is it that otherwise very smart people can spout nonsense like this as soon as they work for Microsoft. To a lesser extent it happens with Oracle, Sun or IBM, but it seems to me that critical faculties disappear very quickly once somebody is in the belly of the Beast of Redmond.

    --
    Call me old fashioned, but I like a dump to be as memorable as it is devastating - Bender
  62. That was a pretty honest article by HangingChad · · Score: 3, Interesting
    For the Economist that was a pretty honest article. Considering the crowd that was about as close to a rousing endorsement as you're likely to see.

    It's interesting to see the US being backed into positions by the rest of the world. Like foreign governments latching on to open source. Makes it glaringly obvious that our recalcitrance is a thinly veiled concession to corporate interests. That would make open source software doubly inviting overseas. In one move they can hit back at the US and Microsoft. Pretty tempting just for the value of the political statement, technology justifications aside.

    We really are our own worst enemy sometimes. I really hope we can heal the rift some day. We'll get a chance at a good start in Nov. '04, but it's going to be a long road.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
    1. Re:That was a pretty honest article by Pig+Bodine · · Score: 2, Informative
      For the Economist that was a pretty honest article. Considering the crowd that was about as close to a rousing endorsement as you're likely to see.

      The Economist has been guardedly positive about open source for quite a while now. They advocated the anti-trust suit against Microsoft and they were covering Linux with a positive spin even back then. And every few weeks I see a big IBM ad on the back cover with Linux in big, bold letters. I'd say they are as big a booster of open source software as you will find in the non-tech oriented press and in this they have been consistently ahead of the trend. Now it seems that they have an open source related article every week or two.

  63. M$ getting rid of Linux users by RoadkillBunny · · Score: 0

    I've been thinking. And found a way that MicroSoft can get rid of linux users. All they have to do is switch to Linux. This would kill half linux users from shock and the other half will die laughing.

    CHEERS
    --RoadkillBunny

    --
    Cheers,
    RoadkillBunny
  64. Government Mandate by wpsmoke · · Score: 1

    Governments often have to mandate. For example in both Australia and Britain (home of the British Imperial measuring system still staunchly supported by the US) laws had to be passed to enforce the introduction of the Metric System. Such enforcement is unlikely in the US where arguements citing either the value of market forces or the importance of freedom of speech can be cynically invoked. Basic software will become a commodity because Goverments will see it as being in their countries best interest. And like introducing the Metric System it will just take a little longer in the US.

  65. Re:Economy 101:Competition is a red-herring by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Capatilism is about advantage. If you are an advantage to someone, you will survive. If you compete with someone and win you still still get nothing if you have no advantage to a customer.
    Open source is an advantage to customers because its free. Its also an advantage to hardware companies who get more dosh since less is spent on software. 2 points for open source.
    On the other hand where is commercial softwares advantage?
    Competition is the red-herring and always will be and has destroyed many companies as they waiste their time with it instead of finding someone who they are an advantage too.
    Microsoft is biting many hands and soon will run out of feeding hands.
    QED

  66. Re:How to be an American by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think this guy has a very bad case of penis envy.

  67. Oracle, ERP, and... by pr0ntab · · Score: 1

    military simulation software. I don't think guys at Lawerence Livermore Labs work for free, do you?

    --
    Fuck Beta. Fuck Dice
  68. I was misled... by mantera · · Score: 1

    I saw this article over an hour ago, not through slashdot, and i thought i had a story to submit due to misreading the sentence, though i guess the sentence itself was easy to misread.

    If you click on Linux in Backgrounds it takes you to a page in the Economist's Research Tools section, there i read "In May 2003 Microsoft attacked on another front, signing a licensing agreement with SCO, which produces a proprietary brand of Unix and has launched a far-reaching copyright-infringment lawsuit against IBM."

    On my first and second, and perhaps third, reading of the sentence i somehow thought that "and" belonged to Microsoft, meaning that microsoft launched a lawsuit against IBM. And i sorta wondered why they said that until i realized the "and" actually belonged to SCO. Try it, it still feels easy to misread.

  69. Databases: established players caught from behind by snolan · · Score: 4, Interesting
    From the article:
    • Oracle, the world's second-largest software company, need not worry (yet) about governments switching to open-source alternatives to its database software.

    I disagree, at least for small databases that are OLTP in nature. Postgress and MySQL both have duplicated all the relevant featurs of Sybase/Oracle/DB2, and at a fraction of the cost in systems - let along license fees.

    I am guessing that just as Linux has eaten the low end sales of HP-UX, Solaris, Irix, classic AIX, and Digital UNIX systems - MySQL and Postgress will much on the soft underbelly of database software (OLTP servers with 4 database engines or fewer that have database footprints of less than 100GB).

    Scaleability, and a few decision support features are all that are left and this "battle" will have been won, and the only Oracle can do is a holding action much like IBM Mainframes have done against desktop computers.

  70. DOD funded DARPANET too... by kupci · · Score: 1
    Ever hear of the internet? No, it wasn't invented by Al Gore, contrary to popular belief.

    So actually, governments, like universities, can provide funding and research for new areas other profit minded, money at all costs, corporations wouldn't.

    Read the article. There are very good reasons for supporting Linux, namely open standards. It's more than whether it's the best technical solution. (Even on that point Linux is superior to Microsoft, which like SCO, is more about Marketing, Lobbying, and Legal Maneuvering than anything technical).

  71. CAPITALISM leads to IMPERIALISM due to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Capitalism leads to imperialism due to it's inner dynamic which is it's tendency toward stagnation.
    Capitalism as a World Economy

  72. You are confused. by twitter · · Score: 1
    Unlike the mandate of open source, a mandate of open standards would not be open to the risk of a legally enforced monopoly.

    Wow, that's some wrong stuff. A mandate which requires software to have it's souce code available is simply a specification. That no more leads to a monopoly than requiring nuts and bolts to conform to ASME standards. Anyone can open their source. Those that don't simply want to screw you.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  73. Microsoft's monopoly by David+Jao · · Score: 1
    Blaming the MS monopoly or other monopolies for that matter (in Sweden there is a sugar monopoly) on the state, is so dumb my eyes hurt.

    There is nothing dumb at all about claiming the state causes the MS monopoly, because it's true. If you take away state-enforced copyright laws then the Microsoft monopoly would disappear in a heartbeat.

    I am not suggesting to repeal copyright laws. I am merely pointing out that they enable the MS monopoly, and that they pretty clearly deviate from laissez faire capitalism.

    1. Re:Microsoft's monopoly by kotj.mf · · Score: 1
      I am not suggesting to repeal copyright laws. I am merely pointing out that they enable the MS monopoly, and that they pretty clearly deviate from laissez faire capitalism.

      Not to troll or anything, but how does this jibe with personal property rights? I mean, most libertarians will tell you that one of the few powers of the state should be the ability to enable the protection of property, which is what copyright laws, at least in theory, are supposed to do.

      Maybe I don't read enough Eric Raymond or something, but it seems like a fundamental contradiction to me...

      --
      hang brain.
    2. Re:Microsoft's monopoly by ccp · · Score: 1

      Maybe you don't read enough Eric Raymond, but it should be obvious to anyone that there's a fundamental difference between protection of property, which you can be for or against, but has a real meaning, and copyrights, an artificial legal fiction created by legislative fiat.

      Cheers,

  74. Re: Why I'm a Zealot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Yes, and there are (were) many very useful and, yes, superior proprietary products that are no longer available because the distributor decided to take them off the market. They have been replaced by newer "improved" versions that are not what the customer wants, or are pushed out of the market by a larger competitor (e.g. DR-DOS). Open-source products protect my investment in hardware, software and data. If the developer loses interest in it, I can support it myself, rely on other open-source folks to do it, or even pay to have somebody do it for me. For an out-of-support proprietary product, such as Office 95, I don't have the legal option to do so, nor the necessary materials (source code) that would be required. So all the data has to be converted to the "new" format (even if the auto-converter works, that's non-value-added staff time), the new software versions have to be paid for, and perfectly good hardware must be replaced to handle the load imposed by an "upgrade" that I wouldn't need but for incompatibility with those who do have newer stuff. For these same reasons, I prefer my tax money be spent on long-lived open source solutions, not a biennial tribute payments to the pirates of Redmond.

  75. Lawerence Livermore Labs? by Haeleth · · Score: 1

    I thought the US military bought all its simulation software from ID these days.

  76. US Govt prioritises US interests?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Surely not!

  77. Closed Source Security Concerns by Geekbot · · Score: 1

    Concerns that US or MS on their own could be bugging software seems fairly reasonable considering that less than a year ago China caught US bugging a plane they had just bought from Boeing. They didn't want to use the plane after that either. Can't see them wanting to use MS after that either.

  78. Unrefined by Gonoff · · Score: 1

    I think it depends on what people mean by unrefined.

    A lot of people use the word as a shorthand for "it doesn't look/handle the same as the Microsoft equivalent." Unfortunately, sometimes when people are working on improving something, that is the refinement they are doing.

    --
    I'll see your Constitution and raise you a Queen.
  79. Oh yeah, lets save money. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    now tell me whiz kid, how can you as a citizen audit a closed source program to ensure that it offers the correct results?

    Inquiring minds etc...

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
    1. Re:Oh yeah, lets save money. by Permission+Denied · · Score: 1
      now tell me whiz kid, how can you as a citizen audit a closed source program to ensure that it offers the correct results?

      That's certainly more difficult without source but not necessarily impossible.

      If you speak of "results" there would generally be some calculation to verify. It's pretty trivial to verify that a word processor offers correct results - you can measure what appears on a printed page. If there is some serious calculation, you would surmise that the basic functions of the package behave as defined and anything you add on top of it can be verified since you have source for what you write.

      Say we're talking about Matlab, Stata or Mathematica. There's a pretty good chance that matrix multiplication works correctly in Matlab, as it would otherwise be a useless product and thousands of researchers would be in serious trouble. These three products are good examples as they are extremely powerful and the open source equivalents don't yet approach them. Try explaining to the scientists at Sandia, LLNL or Argonne that they can't use Matlab because Congress decided proprietary software is unethical.

      Now if you can't trust that the basic functionality of any piece of software works as intended, you would have a hard time writing large classes of programs. For a "hello world" program in C, you'd need to completely audit GCC, libc and your kernel. If you're willing to rely on the analysis of the thousands of people who have worked with these sources, why are you not willing to rely on the analysis of tens or hundreds of people who have worked with the Solaris libc or the QNX kernel? It's only a question of numbers of eyeballs if you don't have time to validate your kernel's source.

      If you're writing something that absolutely requires complete validation at all levels, then you would indeed need source. However, these situations are rare. Say you're writing a control unit for a nuclear power plant or the next space shuttle; if you decide to use VxWorks, you'll probably get access to the source for someone under NDA (I understand this is how it usually works). Quite honestly, I'd rather that the neighborhood nuclear power plant uses VxWorks rather than Linux shoe-horned into an RTOS role.

      I'm not, and never was, denigrating open software. My point is that there are certain cases where proprietary softare makes sense. Say you want to take your organization from using traditionally-keyed doors to a card-swipe system. Are you willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars to design an electronic lock, code its firmware, and then write the accompanying card-encoding software? Probably not. (For comparison, current proprietary card-swipe systems cost less than $20000 for an unlimited software license and less than $500 per lock hardware.) Since this is a security device, anyone in their right mind would choose the commercial system that offered its firmware and accompanying software under an open license, but, I can tell you with some certainty that there is no such offering. If you believe that without exception all proprietary software is illegitimate (as the FSF does), you'll be stuck re-chambering the locks in all your buildings whenever an employee leaves, or you'll take sizable amounts of money away from some other budget to fund an engineering and software team (and you'll continue re-chambering locks in the months or years it takes to develop your "free" electronic locks). If your company chooses to do this, that's fine, but I don't agree that the Department of Agriculture or the local DMV should be spending their time (that is, my money) like this.

      Let me part with the following question: do you drive a vehicle? If yes, do you have access to the firmware source for your vehicle's fuel-injection computer? If no, why are you willing to entrust your life to proprietary software?

  80. UNIX. by jotaeleemeese · · Score: 1

    Wintel do not scale. Period.

    --
    IANAL but write like a drunk one.
  81. Liberterian blindness by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 1

    You mistake "study economics" with "studying right wing dogma". The free market can only exist when there is a strong state, and historically the marked economy developed in parallel with the centralization of power with the king, and removal of power from the church and feudal lords.

    There are two ways you can win in the marked, by making yourself better than the competition, or by making the competition worse than you. There is very little lasting profit in the first, the competion will always try to do the same to you, keeping profit margins at a minimum (and prices low, which is why a working market is such a good thing). However, if you can prevent your competition from entering the market, huge profit is possible. So this is what any executive who cares about shareholder value will attempt. Whenever you see large profits, you see a dysfunctional market.

    As any economist worth his pay will know, the main function of the state is to make sure the market is run by good competion, improving yourself, not bad competition, damaging your competion. Intelligent right-wingers, and they are not as rare as you would think, especially among economists, believe this should be the only role of the state. Protecting the market. This is why we have anti-trust laws, because sometime economic theory wins over lobbyism.

    Unfortunately, there are many other kind of right-wingers out there. One, currently in government, believe it is the job of the state to protect the rich, and help them become richer. They obviously dislike anti-trust laws. Another kind is the Libertarians, who has as an article of faith that government is the root of all evil, and derive their other values from that. They believe, contrary to economic theory, history, and common sense, that the market can exist by itself, and that all signs of dysfunction are results of government intervention.

    1. Re:Liberterian blindness by ccp · · Score: 1



      Well said!

      I'm sorry I spent my moderation points before.

      Cheers,