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Swarthmore Students Keep Diebold Memos Online
An anonymous reader submits "Two student groups based out of Swarthmore College in Pennsylvania announced today that they are rejecting Diebold Elections Systems' cease-and-desist orders and are initiating an electronic civil disobedience campaign that will ensure permanent public access to the controversial leaked memos. You can read the memos, search the memos, or download the memos."
Or host them in another country, and you'll always have access to them.
I bet Diebold just posted it too slashdot too destroy it (servers dead with one post)...
damn there creative
Permanent public access? Linking from slashdot may be less than beneficial in the short term...
Wow 0.19 of 11 MB downloaded, average is 0.0k per second. This will take a while. Does anyone have a mirror up yet?
C:\>
You can have a real effect on what is going to happen. Please take a few minutes to help us out with this action.
Here's how to help:
1) The students engaging in this civil disobedience are meeting with the Dean of their college Wednesday, October 22nd at 4pm. We need you to email *nice* and *supportive* emails to rgross1 (at) swarthmore.edu and cc them to info (at) why-war.com *before* October 22nd at 4pm EST. Please help Dean Bob Gross understand the importance of this issue!
2) Download the entire memo archive:
http://why-war.com/memos/s/lists.tgz
3) Join the disobedience by hosting the memos and posting the URL in this thread
SCDC: http://scdc.emegaweb.net/
Why War?: http://www.why-war.com/
Pleas join an existing, legitimate effort at http://verifiedvoting.org -
This site, rather than continually despairing at the fact that there are problems with electronic voting, has concrete steps that average citizens can take to make change.
need to put them in a magazine or some kind of printed material so that it can not be taken offline , but remain in the public eye.
-seriv
I'd like to mirror the memos if someone has them up, the main server can't be reached by me.
Lets get a fundraising campaign for these guys going if they do indeed go through with it, they'll need it!
I would expect such blatant racism on Fark, but on Slashdot? Mods please ban this asshole.
Yeah, apparently all you can do is /. the articles.
Have you tried Linux yet?
This was posted more than an hour ago in the previous discussion. see Here
They should have set up a bittorent for this one.
Why not put the documents on a P2P file sharing network, to provide access even if the "source" gets shut down? Oh yeah, I forgot, because only criminals and kids with lack of morals use P2P file sharing.
Would make it harder for Diebold to fight back...
None of the stuff is DMCA material why do ISPs keep caving? Have they no balls? I hope this school shows more composure when running up against the greedhead laywers for Diebold who know they are full of crap.
As you can see I don't care about my karma.
Also, it could possibly be discriminating if you shutdown stuff like indymedia and let people like Rush Limbaugh and that general who equated Islam with Satan spout their gibberish. Maybe if both sides are free to spout their gibberish, they will cancel each other out?
I'd have to agree with you. The concept of indymedia seemed like a good idea, but in practice it ends up being the Weekly World News and the Aryan Brotherhood Newsletter (or whatever it's called) combined.
-- Will program for bandwidth
Seriously, print up pamphlets and distribute them, citing the e-mails and memos, with a "dumbed down" non technical explaination of just what the problems are with Diebold machines. You don't need to spend hundreds of dollars on copies, just print out 10-50 pamphlets.
Then hand them out to anyone and everyone you see on the street. If you can manage to do it outside of polling locations, all the better.
There's only about 5 million people online, and talking about it amongst ourselves is not going to make any difference, especially since the mainstream news has been ignoring the issue. We are, in essense, the minority. The majority are those who need to be informed. The guys without computers, the guys without internet service.
And maybe, just MAYBE, the more people in the general public that are made aware, then perhaps enough people will start asking questions that NOBODY can ignore the issue any further.
Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
Friday, 12 September 2003 (PDT)
.mdb file with MS-Access, and alter its contents. That includes the audit log. This isn't anything new. In VTS, you can open the database with progress and do the same. The same would go for anyone else's system using whatever database they are using. Hard drives are read-write entities. You can change their contents.
.mdb file. Even technical wizards at Metamor (or Ciber, or whatever) can figure that one out.
.mdb file to prevent Metamor from opening it with Access. I've threatened to put a password on the .mdb before when dealers/customers/support have done stupid things with the GEMS database structure using Access. Being able to end-run the database has admittedly got people out of a bind though. Jane (I thin
By Bev Harris - blackboxvoting.org
http://www.blackboxvoting.com
If certification isn't being done properly, the whole house of cards falls. Below are actual copies of internal Diebold memos which show that uncertified software is being used in elections, and that Diebold programmers intentionally end-run the system.
Quick backgrounder first, scroll down to see the memos.
BACKGROUND
Our voting system, which is part of the public commons has recently been privatized. When this happened, the counting of the votes, which must be a public process, subjected to the scrutiny of many eyes of plain old citizens, became a secret.
The computerized systems that register voters, will soon sign voters into the polling place using a digital smart card, record the vote we cast, and tally it are now so secret they are not allowed to be examined by any citizens group, or even by academics like the computer scientists at major universities.
The corporate justification for this secrecy is that these systems adhere to a list of "standards" put out by the Federal Election Commission, and that an "ITA" (Independent Testing Authority) carefully examines the voting system, which is then provided to states for their own certification.
As it turns out, the states typically do not examine the computer code at all, relying instead on a "Logic and Accuracy" test which will not catch fraud and has frequently missed software programming errors that cause the machines to miscount.
A Diebold message board has been used since 1999 to help technicians in the field interact with programmers to solve problems. The contents of this message board were quietly sent to reporters and activists around the world, most likely by a Diebold employee. In a letter to WiredNews, Diebold has acknowledged that these memos are from its own staff message boards.
Without further commentary, judge for yourself whether Diebold has been following certification requirements:
From Nel Finberg, Technical Writer, Diebold Election Systems
(Note: Metamor/Ciber is the ITA assigned to certify the software)
alteration of Audit Log in Access
To: "support"
Subject: alteration of Audit Log in Access
From: "Nel Finberg"
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:31:30 -0700
Importance: Normal
Jennifer Price at Metamor (about to be Ciber) has indicated that she can access the GEMS Access database and alter the Audit log without entering a password. What is the position of our development staff on this issue? Can we justify this? Or should this be anathema?
Nel
Reply from Ken Clark, principal engineer for Diebold Election Systems
RE: alteration of Audit Log in Access
To:
Subject: RE: alteration of Audit Log in Access
From: "Ken Clark"
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:55:02 -0700
Importance: Normal
In-reply-to:
Its a tough question, and it has a lot to do with perception. Of course everyone knows perception is reality.
Right now you can open GEMS'
Now, where the perception comes in is that its right now very *easy* to change the contents. Double click the
It is possible to put a secret password on the
If you think an auditable paper record is important, contact your representatives and voice your support for the Voter Confidence and Increased Accessibility Act of 2003.
As far as I can tell, it's only sleezy Diebold who is telling people not to post the memos. Unless these kids are standing up against a court order to take down the information, they are hardly participating in civil disobedience just because they are pointing out serious flaws in Diebold's buggy system and not listening to Diebold when they say to stop, flaws that Diebold would apparently like to hide.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
"Here's how to help:"
Step one: Apply fire extinguisher to burning server.
Step two: Clean up resulting mess.
Step three: Put together a new server, and never publish it's IP address to Slashdot again.
Does anyone else see a new hall of fame story in the making, "Diebold orders /. to remove posts"? Sure is fun to watch however (even when slashdot caves in to the $cientoligi$t$).
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Ho, ho, ha ha, "Slashdot effect". This joke is more worn out than hot grits. Say something useful, says something funny but quit posting "Slashdot effect" trolls.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
Freenet.
Exactly why it exists.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
This is the kind of information that can be easily postedon USENET. This would provide worldwide public access distribution for the content, except at ISPs that choose to censor the data of course.
Just another example of how America's colleges promote liberalism
Okay. That's a good thing.
and anti-americanism
How is it anti-American to expose flaws in voting machines which could threaten the very heart of our society; the fair democratic election of our leaders?
and promote the acceptance of lawbreaking
We should accept lawbreaking when the laws being broken. Did you ever learn about the Boston Tea Party? Ever hear of Rosa Parks refusing to give up her seat on a bus? Civil disobedience has a long, proud history in America.
If you like conservatism and patriotism, and you dislike civil disobedience, then move to Communist China. They are very conservative, very patriotic, and don't tolerate civil disobedience. Your kind of people...
The aptly-named "liberal arts college" should be banned if you ask me.
No one did, but you'd have really appreciated Mao's Cultural Revolution where intellectuals were rounded up and sent to brutal labor camps.
WARNING-Goatse man link!!
Woo hoo! 3hrs 4mins remaining at 33 bytes/sec.
Reminds me of downloading warez from crappy sites on my 28.8 modem. Those were the days.
Comming right up sir! You are just our kind of consumer. Double plus good for you, don't listen to anyone but solid dependable whores we pay. It's not like you need an impartial third party telling you what they think happed. Let the good folks of GE, MSNBC, Disney, and MacDonalds feed you just what does them the best good.
Whatever you do, don't read the internal memos from DiBold's techs. Those people are no longer associated with DiBold for their lack of proper corporate protocal. They should have used Microsoft's famous disapearing ink email, instead of bathering all over the internet. Go back to sleep while they chose your next mayor, govenor, president, forgein policy and conservation laws designed to maximize my^H^H your wealth. Good night, sweet prince!
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
The problem with bittorrent is that Diebold can read the torrent file and send cease and desist orders to every host at once. With the current scheme, Diebold can only issue one cease and desist order at a time because only one host is visible at a time. This forces Diebold to do a lot more work and greatly increases the longevity of the effort.
I have never regretted my speech,
but I have frequently regretted my failure to speak.
This is often suggested, but which one?
Which network(s) do Slashdotters favor?
What file names?
It's not enough to just drop them out in P2P land. Give people a place to look.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Is this the same Indymedia which consists of "stories" posted by raving lunatics that try to pass their most rabid conspiracy theories as legitimate news items?
Sounds kind of like Slashdot.
If that's independent news media, give me my biased greedy coporate controlled news anyday.
1) The open newswire you blast is handled differently on different IMCs. Some sites have an iron-fisted editorial policy, while others are practically free-for-alls. Since the newswire clerks tend to be activists familiar with being ignored and shouted down, the topic of censorship and editorial control is always sensitive. I've argued for a looser editorial policy in some cases, and I've argued for a harder line on crap in others. Read the mailing lists sometime--a lot of people who spend time working on an IMC or two share similar concerns about the unsourced, unsubstantiated crap that some people post as news. Unfortunately, it's hard to argue that such stuff should be immediately hidden when corporate and state media sources post similarly unsourced or half-cocked news with a hardline editorial policy.
2) One person's wacko conspiracy theory is another person's reality. Mind you, this does not excuse some of the greater excesses of the tinfoil hat crowd (the whole "plane didn't hit the Pentagon" crap is so blatantly factless I have to wonder if it's someone's idea of a joke, or a lame COINTELPRO plant, for one example). However, the term "conspiracy theory" seems to be aimed at practically any argument that challenges conventional wisdom, instead of being reserved for the truly raving shit. I actually feel better letting those we view as nutters present their case, so it can be judged on the merits (or lack thereof), instead of having someone else decide for me before the info/crap can even reach my eyes.
3) Some reactionaries like to refer to Indymedia as "Nazimedia" because some of the morons from the neo-Nazi crowd think they've found a place where they can post freely and get away with it. Going back to my first point, many (ok, practically all) IMCs have editorial policies that explicitly ban racism, sexism, or other forms of hatred based upon intrinsic, immutable characteristics. We hate the Nazi fuckers just as much as you do--even more, perhaps. The Jewish-world-conspiracy morons get the same reaction from real progressive and radical activists that I imagine many of you would have upon reading the crap, and if it can't be hidden due to an extremely loose editorial policy, the imbeciles can at least get slapped down in comments.
Finally...
4) The open newswires found on most sites are a fluke of history. The original newswire, on the Seattle IMC, dates from the 1999 "Battle of Seattle". It was intended solely as an experiment in relatively unfiltered, frontline reporting from any observer who could get to a computer. It's rather amazing that many IMCs haven't cracked down and just rid themselves of the often-criticized and -abused open wires, but perhaps it speaks to the committment of most volunteers to ideals of freedom of information and debate.
"You are your own journalist."--English tagline of Indymedia Israel.
Someday, you're going to die. Get over it.
Alternet had a story about independent media centers just a few weeks ago. As the autor puts it, Indymedia journalists generally believe everyone is biased, hiding it, and that we might as well just be as opinionated in written form as we would be among friends. It goes into the history of the "democratic" (I think "open" is a much better word) system, their decentralized nature, and the tough decisions they've had to make.
... it all comes down to the readers checking their facts, with any source.
Indymedia: Between Passion and Pragmatism by Gal Beckerman, Columbia Journalism Review, September 17, 2003.
I don't think it was in this article, but the comment is easily made that two biased viewpoints next to each other don't make up a fair, objective statement. If you assume, however, that everyone is out to convince you of something at least partially untrue, then this is as good as it gets (sadly.)
I fail to understand, however, why sites like this are mostly liberal-oriented. Is it a culture thing, or a reputation thing? Would unlike-minded individuals just never be caught posting here? Is it a bit like pro-microsoft articles and slashdot?
Independent media is a tool, not a solution. If everyone were to use the tool, it might actually be more useful. It would also have so much "information" flowing through it that we would be unlikely to pick out the good parts. Any selection or editorial process is likely to be biased
Your mileage will most likely vary quite thoroughly.
No one did, but you'd have really appreciated Mao's Cultural Revolution where intellectuals were rounded up and sent to brutal labor camps.
Mao: Let's see if you can think naughty thoughts... WHILE YOU'RE FROZEN IN CARBONITE!!! Mwa ha ha ha hah asdflh *cough rasp choke
To follow knowledge like a sinking star, / Beyond the utmost bound of human thought. ("Ulysses", Tennyson)
mitch
being a patriot is equated to being a nazi.
I've voted green in the last election, and will in the next, but I love my country and I'm sure the grand parent poster does too. Does that make us 'nazis' in your eyes, junior?
I have a limited amount of time, and I do read a lot of news. There are just some sites where the BS is too high to waste my time with.
Newsmax used to be such site, but many of the Indymedia servers have won the prize of just not worth paying attention to.
If you have all day to read everything, feel free.
- sigs are for wimps.
From the link...
War? believes that what we are doing is legal; though we see it as an issue of electronic civil disobedience we believe it is Diebold which is abusing copyright law in an attempt to shut down free speech and the democratic process.
Okay, now it's either legal OR it's civil disobedience (i.e., intentionally breaking a law, and accepting an unjust punishment, to draw attention to an issue). As someone who supports this effort -- someone who's done a little political action and gets steaming mad at scatterbrained hippies who drag down liberal progressive movements -- I'd prefer that they straighten out the claims of their action.
I think it would be preferable to claim that Diebold's cease-and-desist order is illegal and unenforceable. Then, keeping the memos online is even better than civil disobedience (noble in its own right), it's actually civil obedience for a just cause.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
I am older than the average /. reader/poster. In my very youthful years I protested against the war in Vietnam. I participated in a march to my state's captital to protest cuts in funding for my university. I've sent a few letters to the editors of the Washington Post; one abridged version got published. Hey, the World Series is taking place; I've sent a letter to the NL baseball commissioner about something that Marge Schott did. I've been on the National Board of a civil rights organization.
I have never done civil disobidience. I can't read the details of what they are doing because of their servers are going poof. Additionally, I have not been active in these types of activity with regard to computer/technical related issues. Many of you do a much better job than I could ever do.
I'm rambling on right now so what is my point? Get involved in social issues (and protests when needed), in a manner that you are comfortable with.
While I'm more liberal and libertarian than the norm, my advice also applies to those that are more conservative than me.
If you don't like the newswires (and they can be pretty noisy) each local site has edited features, which should make note of the better articles in the newswire. Of course, it's all entirely volunteer, so results may vary.
Latin American Indymedia sites have been very active, while mainstream media ignores events there almost entirely. Bolivia and Argentina have been very active covering recent events.
It's not like this is going to favor Republicans just because the guy running Diebold is a Republican - with security this bad it's open season for everyone. I think the more worrying thing would be if these machines weren't hackable but were iron-clad, then the only backdoors would belong to the guys who wrote the code; instead, the backdoors are wide open to any idiot who wishes to wander in.
If these machines really are hackable then they'll be hacked, and going by the intelligence of your average script kiddie they'll be hacked to such a ridiculous degree that the results will clearly be fake and the judiciary will declare all of these elections invalid. I mean, really, when Kevin Mitnick is mysteriously elected governor of Minnesota in a write-in vote and NORML supporters sweep the legislative elections in nine states, somebody's going to start asking questions...
IIRC the $cientology stuff was just modded down and not deleted... therefore it can be found by those looking... same should be done with the diebold memos... just make it easy to fin the posts but keep them modded low to have an added benefit of saving bandwith for the server and visitors not intending to get said documents
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
all of them. its the only way to be sure.
I'm not joking by the way.
My days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle...
Before we condemn these students about a civil disobedience stance against electronic voting, keep in mind these folks are at a Quaker-based college and are acting in those traditions. A few of the posts modded up have been somewhat critical of the motives and methods.
l y- 02-18-2002.shtml
The Society of Friends -- Quakers -- have a long history of questioning that which is conventionally accepted. Thus, they were among the first to question slavery:
http://www.gospelcom.net/chi/DAILYF/2002/02/dai
Quaker-based organizations -- The American Friends Service Committee and British Friends Service Council -- won the 1947 Nobel Peace Prize for their material aid efforts in postwar Europe, particularly in Germany which was then an international paraih:
http://www.afsc.org/about/nobel.htm
And they were in Cambodia when nobody else would go.
Pick a topic -- civil rights, underground railroad, women's rights, GLBT, tolerance of different religions among them -- and Quakers have been quietly (and sometimes not so quietly) questioning convention and willing to stand by their decisions, even when confronted with prison and punishment.
Check http://www.quaker.org if you want to read about how these people have stood in the face of convention and often ended up ahead of their times. Hint: William Penn Hat Trial.
And no, they DO NOT dress like the 17th century guy on the oats box. That's more of an Amish style.
From Nel Finberg, Technical Writer, Diebold Election Systems
(Note: Metamor/Ciber is the ITA assigned to certify the software)
alteration of Audit Log in Access
To: support
Subject: alteration of Audit Log in Access
From: Nel Finberg
Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2001 23:31:30 -0700
Importance: Normal
Jennifer Price at Metamor (about to be Ciber) has indicated that she can access the GEMS Access database and alter the Audit log without entering a password. What is the position of our development staff on this issue? Can we justify this? Or should this be anathema?
Nel
Reply from Ken Clark, principal engineer for Diebold Election Systems
RE: alteration of Audit Log in Access
To:
Subject: RE: alteration of Audit Log in Access
From: Ken Clark
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 09:55:02 -0700
Importance: Normal
In-reply-to:
Its a tough question, and it has a lot to do with perception. Of course everyone knows perception is reality. .mdb file with MS-Access, and alter its contents.
That includes the audit log. This isn't anything new. In VTS, you can open the
database with progress and do the same. The same would go for anyone else's
system using whatever database they are using. Hard drives are read-write entities.
You can change their contents.
Right now you can open GEMS'
Now, where the perception comes in is that its right now very *easy* to change the contents. Double click the .mdb file. Even technical wizards at Metamor
(or Ciber, or whatever) can figure that one out.
It is possible to put a secret password on the .mdb file to prevent Metamor
from opening it with Access. I've threatened to put a password on the .mdb before
when dealers/customers/support have done stupid things with the GEMS database
structure using Access. Being able to end-run the database has admittedly got
people out of a bind though. Jane (I think it was Jane) did some fancy footwork
on the .mdb file in Gaston recently. I know our dealers do it. King County is
famous for it. That's why we've never put a password on the file before.
Note however that even if we put a password on the file, it doesn't really prove much. Someone has to know the password, else how would GEMS open it. So this technically brings us back to square one: the audit log is modifiable by that person at least (read, me). Back to perception though, if you don't bring this up you might skate through Metamor.
There might be some clever crypto techniques to make it even harder to change the log (for me, they guy with the password that is). We're talking big changes here though, and at the moment largely theoretical ones. I'd doubt that any of our competitors are that clever.
By the way, all of this is why Texas gets its sh*t in a knot over the log printer. Log printers are not read-write, so you don't have the problem. Of course if I were Texas I would be more worried about modifications to our electronic ballots than to our electron logs, but that is another story I guess.
Bottom line on Metamor is to find out what it is going to take to make them happy. You can try the old standard of the NT password gains access to the operating system, and that after that point all bets are off. You have to trust the person with the NT password at least. This is all about Florida, and we have had VTS certified in Florida under the status quo for nearly ten years.
I sense a loosing battle here though. The changes to put a password on the .mdb file are not trivial and probably not even backward compatible, but we'll
do it if that is what it is going to take.
Ken
Reply by Nel Finberg
RE: alteration of Audit Log in Access
To:
Next time you vote and found out you need to vote on Diebold machine, just tell them you don't trust the machine and refuse vote. Or if possible, request a paper ballot.
In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
This ought to be posted into FreeNet, where it cannot be killed. And putting up a BitTorrent of the files isn't a bad idea, either.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
why do they make it sound like a republican plot? if you are a democrat out there, how many of you have assurances from your representatives that they will oppose diebold and any non-open source government initiative?
SCO: 800-726-8649
Verisign: 800-361-8319, 888-642-9675
Diebold: 800-433-VOTE (8683)
Its like every article on there uses the word "jingoistic", just to give the impression that "its not propaganda because THOSE PEOPLE are propaganda"... as if Geraldo is some kind of conspiritor in the enslavement of the world to capitalism.
SCO: 800-726-8649
Verisign: 800-361-8319, 888-642-9675
Diebold: 800-433-VOTE (8683)
Me neither. But it sounds like the students freely admit to breaking the law -- which they are or not, I don't know -- and are doing it in order to keep this information public, because they believe that risking legal action in this situation is worth the public good. Seems to me that qualifies as civil disobedience, whether or not they ever end up in a courtroom.
If you like conservatism and patriotism, and you dislike civil disobedience, then move to Communist China. They are very conservative, very patriotic, and don't tolerate civil disobedience. Your kind of people...
Kiss my patriotic ass. This stupid ultra-liberal backlash against patriotism is pissing me off. Patriotism != blindly following Dubya and his henchmen. Patriotism, as I see it, has always meant a love for the United States and the ideals set forth by the founding fathers, two of these ideals being the Constitutional rights to freedom of press and freedom of speech. By that view of patriotism, what these students are doing is clearly patriotic. No American in their right mind would argue that having our elections run by a bunch of incompetent buffoons who try to cover their massive flaws with lawsuits is a good thing.
From http://www.indymedia.nl/nl/2003/10/14569.shtml: http://www.emptylogic.com/suprnova/torrents/451/li sts.tgz.torrent
Enjoy!
Withdrawal before climax is very ineffective and those who try this are usually called "parents."
here is a direct link to the archive, please download and mirrore mos/list s.tgz
http://www.sccs.swarthmore.edu/org/scdc/m
micah
Thankfully, the EFF is more enlightened than you are.
Bill Clinton was not impeached because he received a blowjob. Bill Clinton was impeached because he lied under oath and obstructed a federal investigation.
Wh47 d1d j00 541, 31337 15n't t3h r0xor5 ne m0r3???
Read my rant here.
http://saveie6.com/
Courtesy of the Seattle Indymedia site.r nalmemos.pdf . html
http://d176.whartonab.swarthmore.edu/
http://d176.whartonab.swarthmore.edu/diebold_inte
http://noisebox.cypherpunks.to/~visible/vote/vote
http://www.scifience.net/
http://emdx.org/r.php?U=BBV
http://opium.mine.nu/bbv/
http://centipede.provocation.net/diebold/
http://localh.kicks-ass.org/bbv/
http://d125.wortha.swarthmore.edu/
Source thread on Indymedia if you are interested.
These are my two best servers. Though I must admit, they have never had a severe bandwidth test. I guess its about time.
Please provide other mirrors if you can.
Here you go:
mirror1.coolmacguy.com/lists.gtar
mirror2.coolmacguy.com/lists.gtar
-You may license this sig for only $6.99.
Umm I think you will find that China is extremely conservative. Just because they adhere to a psuedo communist doctorine does not make them free-loving hippies.
I am a leftie, I believe in the community and a social design that does not leave those less fortunate behind. However I do not at any stage condone any acts of bastardry, whether committed by the far left or the far right.
Extremism in any flavour is a blight.
they've been doing most of the grunt work on this issue. Bev Harris deserves alot of credit. They have a really easy way to donate on their front page. 2 paypal buttons, 1 is a one time payment, the other is a $1.99 supscription. 2 bucks a month is cheap if you consider what these people are trying to do. So please help them out.
I used to worry about all the lame-brained, right-wing-liberal, hippie-conservative, crazy assed shit that I've said over the years, and whether having my various posts where I've been all over the political spectrum, all over the spectrum of sanity and insanity, and everywhere from reasonable and educational to bloodthirsty pirate and troll.... I've worried that this legacy would take some explaining, maybe someday, if I were being recruited by the NSA or something, or any other job interview.
But I WOULD NOT trade for anyone named on any of these Diebold memos.
If these discussions are really true, if they are really from developers and QA people, they had better count their lucky stars if the interviewer at their next job isn't political.
You could probably get away with a batch file that prints "system test passed" for all I know.
--Ken Clark
I may have said some crazy-assed crap in my time, but that's because I tend to be a clown. But I don't think I'd want to go on record with something like this. I actually might be more inclined to blow the whistle on this operation. Which is obviously what someone did do.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
Yes, this is TEMPORARY.
I put it in bzip2 format, which reduced it to 7.4mb from 11mb+ in gzip.
Here it is
It's on limited bandwidth, so please post a mirror with more resources.
I await the day when freenet becomes popular enough to work at a speed considered 'useable' to the average internet Joe. Insertions of information such as the diebold memo's can be completely anonymous, makeing sure there's no one to target with a law suit. The more people who use freenet 24/7 the better it gets. I'm sure theres plenty of slashdot'ers with unlimited and fast connections (unlike those stuck here in australia, where freenet eats into my quota like a fat man eat pancakes). Do the world a favour. Run freenet.
Actually, they don't. They just censor news according to a different bias.
Indymedia isn't independent, they just have different biases than some other sources. It's not better than major sources, just written from a different viewpoint.
If it ain't broke, you need more software.
Makes more sense to fold to the CO$.
Diebold may sue, but the CO$ kill.
I agree that the "we sued slashdot" hall of fame would be an interesting concept.
YAW.
Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
Indeed! I can add that to the list that the dishonest conservatives ignore when trying to falsely associate all liberals and progressives with dictators mass murderers.
Available here. Someone please mirror this torrent, uploadit.org probably can't host it for too long.
Torrent is built with backup trackers, so if you're using TheSHAD0W's experimental client it will fall-back to the next tracker in line if one is down.
communist is as liberal as Nazi's are conservative.
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
I agree: current versions of these machines are prone to error or corruption, and shouldn't be foisted on us without considerable *SUCCESSFUL* testing by highly critical, technical people.
I am already getting a 404 error...
NY Times had more than a page in Sunday Edition about replacing aging voting machines with computerized electronic voting. In spite of an entire column on the intense lobbying the several companies are doing to gain government contracts, only one part of one sentence mentioned security as a concern at all. The old media has either been co-opted or is totally clueless... probably both.
http://achurch.org/lists.tar.bz2 (until I get slashdotted)
No news is deleted from Indymedia newswires, though posts are hidden. Different local Indymedia sites can make their own policy, within the general bounds of the Indymedia mission. All sites hide some articles, typically articles that are overtly racist, pornographic, or "spam" (junk, contentless press releases, duplicate posts, etc). Some are more agressive about this, but censorship based purely on political perspective is uncommon and frowned upon by the larger network.
http://eddie.ratm.net/johnkimble/lists/lists.tgz grab it here 100mbit.
Sounds like you two are in violent agreement.
Enable 3D printed prosthetics!
-
Kiss my patriotic ass. This stupid ultra-liberal backlash against patriotism is pissing me off. Patriotism != blindly following Dubya and his henchmen. Patriotism, as I see it, has always meant a love for the United States and the ideals set forth by the founding fathers, two of these ideals being the Constitutional rights to freedom of press and freedom of speech. By that view of patriotism, what these students are doing is clearly patriotic. No American in their right mind would argue that having our elections run by a bunch of incompetent buffoons who try to cover their massive flaws with lawsuits is a good thing.
Wow! Where to begin?Go back and read a little bit. The original poster accused people conducting civil disobedience of being unpatriotic.
The poster you replied to said that the OP was being unpatriotic, and perhaps the OP should move to China, where they dislike public discourse and prefer prison for anyone who disagrees with the official government propoganda (e.g., tiananmen square).
Now you come along. I practically need to stretch the english language to convey how completely you misinterpreted the entire conversation, so I won't try. I'm nervous that you might interpret this reply as an endorsement of dwarf tossing or something. So this is for everyone else.
He was confused, is all. Go ahead and gawk at him for a while and then continue along with your daily activities, like you would if you saw one of those little green lizards in your yard.
Darl, is that you?
WWJD? JWRTFA!
Everyone says p2p is evil, but in a case like this it can really shine. Download it, put it on your favorite P2P app properly named, and bandwidth will come. There's no stopping half a million netizens who are hosting it off of their boxen.
Candy-Coated Knowledge
Try this bittorrent mirror link; this torrent uses multiple trackers so even if the tracker is taken down it will still work, as long as there are seeds connected (or even once complete copy of the file across all the downloaders).
"A nondeterministic set of sentients devoted to order and chaos"
So the like to use big words so they can feel 'better' about themselves?
nt
I am a viral sig. Please copy me and help me spread. Thank you.
I'm an idiot. I am going to bed before I do anything else stupid.
Sorry about that.
No, that would be you, and that would be "posts".
that try to pass their most rabid conspiracy theories as legitimate news items?
Everyone is giving rabies a bad name these days. You're foaming at the mouth and I didn't say anything about it. (Oops!)
If that's independent news media, give me my biased greedy coporate controlled news anyday.
Aha! Now that you admit ownership of said media, it lends credence to your charges of bias and greed. I always knew it but it sure is sporting of you to admit it. Bring back Firefly please! If you do, I'll make you the next governor of Georgia.
WWJD? JWRTFA!
The answer to getting rid of these machines is to hack them in a massive way, putting in completely bogus candidates and making them win by a landslide. Mickey Mouse wins a state. Natalie Portman becomes a real life senator.
Do this on election day using Wireless hacks, from laptops or whatever else is needed. Make the election so completely screwed that the government is forced to drop electronic voting completely.
Why Americans can't follow the Australian way by simply marking a paper sheet with the numbers 1 thru 7 or putting a X in the candidate square you like, is beyond me. It's simple, easy to tally, and can be recounted ad nauseum if required with no allegations of vote tampering destroying the trust process of the election.
If you aren't intelligent enough to do that you shouldn't be allowed to vote.
Quizo69
Visceral Psyche Films
Only on slashdot....
Thank god.
http://www.guanotronic.com/~snook/lists.tar.bz2
http://www.guanotronic.com/~snook/lists.tgz
For those who are considering mirroring, my lawyer warns that angering large, litigious corporations is not generally a bright move, even if they don't have a leg to stand on in court.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
I believe there is an argument that it is neither. It should be seen as protected speech under the protections of the first amendment of the US Constitution.
In the US supreme court's landmark Sullivan decision, it was firmly established that speech criticizing public officials was more or less immune to ordinary charges of libel.
The court adopted Madison's view that the people are the ultimate owners of the country.
As Justice Brennan wrote in the majority opinion, Thus we consider this case against the background of a profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open, and that it may well include vehement, casutic, and sometimes unpleasantly sharp attacks on government and public officials... and as an expression of grievance and protest on one of the major public issues of our time, would seem clearly to qualify for constitutional protection."
While Dieblod is "not" a government official, its involvement in the election of public officials should be close enough to invoke the free speech protections which the US Supreme Court has provided.
The ability to critize our public officials AND THEY WAY THEY ARE ELECTED is a fundamental American right.
Use it before the traitors who stole the last US election take it away.
If we expose these flaws then no one can find these flaws "secretly" and exploit them. Finding and pointing out flaws is a good....oh, I see, you were joking. :)
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Doesn't this belong on kuro5hin? In case you didn't know, we hate all politicians here.
"If you are a dreamer, a wisher, a liar, A hope-er, a pray-er, a magic bean buyer
Violation of rule #1 of SECURITY when it comes to electronic voting systems (this is a "restricted protocol": "Our voting system, which is part of the public commons has recently been privatized. When this happened, the counting of the votes, which must be a public process, subjected to the scrutiny of many eyes of plain old citizens, became a secret." If any of you are security experts out there, you know that they simply should not rely on a secret process. The process should be PUBLIC, it should be PEER-REVIEWED and AVAILABLE for people to pick apart and strengthen. There are plenty of REAL, PUBLIC voting protocols out there Diebold. Why'd you choose to privatize? I mean, they obviously realize that is a departure from the proper methodology, and yet they STILL did it?
Why the fuck havent any of the major media outlets started talking about this? Why arent the democrats up in arms?
If this is even half true, then its HUGE. This would completely knock Watergate out of the history books. Can you imagine the outrage if this became widely known? This would deal an enormous deathblow to the christian right, the republican party and the bush family, amongst others. How many election results would have to be recalled? How many Bush family members would be thrown in jail? Would there be an impeachment?
Dear God. What these people consider a 'release" version should count as criminal negligence on an ordinary project. This is about an election, nothing - with the possible exception of the judicial system that may have to step in over this - is more important in our system of government.
I mean... My God ! They don't know what they're sending to the client ! "Is this a "testing" release or not? (Ashamed to ask). I think the hallucinations ought to be resurfacing with Steve already. Ken"
Where are the US Marshall's ? Ashamed to ask ? How's he gonna feel under interrogation ? Or on the witness stand. Draft 'em and send 'em to Leavenworth.
Veteran, Bermuda Triangle Expeditionary Force, 1992-1951
What's really brilliant about this, is even if they (the people behind this civil disobedience movement) totally lose, get sued/shutdown/jailed/whatever, they still win, because now, this is like the original decss source, everyone has it, it's spreading across the Internet in a multitude of countries, and the message that they are trying to spread will be spread even further and louder. So congratulations to all the martyrs involved.
Would that be the same cultural revolution where they shut down the universities and shot all the hippy-pinko professors?
This was the rallying cry of the united fronts of the 1930s trying desperately to stop the spread of Nazism and fascism in Europe. When the most immediate threat to your freedom comes from brownshirts, an alliance with the extreme left is quite prudent.
The sad fact is that Stalin's lamentable ``Social Democracy is objectively the moderate wing of Fascism'' divided the anti-fascists so much that there was nobody to stop Hitler until it was too late.
In Berlin in 1933, from any standpoint not alien to modern American norms of morality, there were no enemies to the left.
To suggest that somehow the post-Maoist state capitalism practiced in PRC now is somehow the same thing as Bolshevism, much less the same as Marxism or Catalan-style anarcho-syndicalism, is simply hallucinatory. One might assert with equal validity that Social Catholicism, white separatism, extreme laissez-faire capitalism (a.k.a. pure `liberalism' in the true sense of the word), English Conservatism, and Falangism are all the same thing. And only Stalin would say that.
In principio creauit Linus Linucem.
Whoever modded that informative obviously did not click the link. The link is NOT a mirror of the file, but a link to goatse. If you don't know who/what goatse is, then you are lucky. Don't click the link.
Here's another mirror of the Diebold memos.
You can download it here as well.
Useless opinions, worthless observations, and more!
Voltaire? Might check. Quotes are easily mis-attributed. (Yes, my site probably has a few too. I'd love to know.)
I've asked it before, but how can such a dumb guy become leader of a country... democratically??
I don't believe the majority of the people voted for him.
I want my karma, and I want it now!
As an English IT consultant (and a member of the Society of Friends) with many relatives and business contacts in the USA, I have been growing more and more concerned by the vast budgets available to American politicians for elections and the consequent possibilities for electoral fraud based on unverifiable electronic systems.
The attempt by Diebold to conceal the extent to which these concerns may be justified seems to me to be profoundly anti-democratic. It is deeply worrying that a private company should effectively have control of the outcome of the electoral process without proper oversight. Central to allaying concerns over the fairness of elections is that the process should be fully transparent. If part of that process is proprietary and cannot be independently audited, transparency is lost and the opportunity is open for fraud. As any experienced analyst knows, the use of test routines cannot be a guarantee of any kind of completeness, and only full access to the source code by qualified programmers and analysts can rule out the possibility of backdoor access, data modification or data loss.
I am delighted to see that Swarthmore students are following in the great Quaker tradition of speaking truth to power. If in some ways they may have been less than well ordered, I hope that Swarthmore will be able to help them into a right understanding. But if they have genuinely uncovered an abuse I hope it will be able to stand firmly behind them.
Yours in friendship,
They pretty much invented modern chocolate - Cadbury, Rowentree, etc. (and the welfare state but that's less important :-)
The issues of audit trail tampering really brings home the point that they should really be using military-grade systems to do this kind of stuff. We already have commercially-available systems that provide a high level of auditing and capability-separation. I worked with B2 DG/UX in the past (for medical records), though I guess that since DG was purchased for their storage products, that's probalby not an option these days. Sun Trusted Solaris, a version of Solaris that is B1 equivalent, and includes x86 support. I'm sure there are a few other products out there that could be used.
Designing an audit system that isn't modifiable, even by someone who has superuser-level privelieges, isn't rocket science. Even if you don't have robust security features in your OS, you could do remote logging to a separate machine. It seems like a decent audit trail is the least we should ask for.
-Esme
Apparently, there seems to have been a mysterious netting of -16,022 votes for Gore on a Diebold machine in the 2000 Florida election. IIRC, Bush won by a very small margin (hundreds) in Florida.
I have never been that interested about pregnant chads or various conspiracy theories relating to absentee votes, voters written off from the lists etc... Basically, those claims usually lacked consistence and these kind of dirty tricks were probably played by both sides.
Now, this kind of direct tampering with the results can be proved (or disproved) and that makes a big difference IMHO.
Maybe Gore actually won the 2000 election after all.
It would be nice to be sure of anything the way some people are of everything.
(He has a bottomless bag of "Euler's theorem (due to Bernoulli)", "the inequality named after Schwarz (and therefore not due to Schwarz)..." with which to crack up audiences.)
What did you write this for?
Jag pratar lite svenska.
What is with these misconceptions about freenet.
First of all, Freenet is making rapid progress despite the fact they have very *very* limited funding. I'm currently able to insert and receive gigabytes of stuff off freenet. Perhaps if you did as suggested and left your node on for a few days so it could intergrate into the network you'd see some speed.
Second, this child pornography thing is false. The main sites have little if any of it, see for yourself. As well, this porgraphy content could easily be displaced by projects like this Memo thing if people would just insert other content.
Third, content doesn't drop off fast. It usually takes months of non requests before it slides off. As well GNUnet, another p2p anonymous GPL project, has the ability to host specific files on your hard drive, perhaps this feature will be added to Freenet.
The coding is simple, and if you dont like Java, there is a close cousin of freenet in C,C++ type language called Entropy, as well as there is GNUnet. Why not look at the code and experiment, its all GPL.
Mirror linked here too. Ironic - and revolting - thing is that Diebold is also the company responsible for protecting the original Constitution, Declaration, and Bill of Rights.
There is a problem with freenet, a large one actually: people can run non contributing 'transient nodes'. i.e. serial leecher nodes.
Leeching, esp. on an anonymous network, where there is little if any drawback to doing so, is a big problem. If few people contribute then the network becomes slow (although the speed is faster now on Freenet I find).
One solution to serial leeching was created by another p2p project, which is GPLed, called GNUnet. They use an economic model in which people who contribute get credits they can use to request files, so leechers are out in the dark.
Even if you don't know programing, but know network topology, or even economics in GNUnet's case, then why not contribute your ideas to these projects? Freedom of speech seems like a worthy cause to donate some time to.
"As I would not be a slave, so I would not be a master. This expresses my idea of democracy." - Abraham Lincoln
You should stop trying to redefine conservatism as anything that pampered Western liberal intellectuals don't like, and vice versa. It's dishonest and despicable.
What's despicable and dishonest is your attempts to portray a society which subjugates women, resists change at all costs, and highly values conformity as anything other than conservative.
I only wish I didn't encounter ridiculous speed problems with it...
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
It's not a concept to have a "we sued slashdot" hall of fame, if you look at the hall of fame and the most visited stories you will note that numbers 1 and 8 are the Microsoft and the scientoligists requests to remove content (with 377844 and 265178 views respectively)! Just goes to show that sueing to remove content is not the best way to have the content go away!
Never underestimate the dark side of the Source
Excellent, looks like this little "democracy" is functioning just fine, cute little soilder ants
torrents buck the /. effect and actually improve the overall transfer of the files to you. (Assuming you can get the torrent
downloaded.
Sorry guys, nothing new here. People with access to the voting equipment--no matter what technology is used--have always had the ability to cheat the system. I've worked in election offices, and guess what, I could easily grab a couple bags of cards, ballots, whatever and throw them in the pile. Thousands of them. You have to actually *trust* the people working your polls! It is that simple folks. Next time you vote (you do vote right?) look around at the current technology and see how many ways it can be beat! A lot of it is easier than hotwiring a electronic machine!
If these things do get used in an election, and somone DOES hack them to demonstrate weakness, please do so in an unambiguous way.
Give a nonexistant candidate more votes than the state has citizens.
In Capitalist America, bank robs you!
Except that these are sentiments expressed at every company.
--Rob
Towards the Singularity.
I don't vote!
Currently, a leading manufacturer of electronic voting systems named Diebold Systems is attempting to squelch critics and critical discussion of their products and business methods. Some of these critics are your students, as you are probably well aware. Such Cease and Desist orders are the first step in a campaign to control those who would dissent, and to intimidate those who would research.
I believe this discussion rightly should include the publication of confidential business memoranda that have been acquired from Diebold Systems. These memoranda may show certain antipathy to the proper methodology and design for a secure voting infrastructure. It is only through such exposition that a frank discussion of security and responsibility can be pursued.
Lastly, I am very concerned at corporate influence in government function. I have long held the position that "a corporation has no vested interest in the rights of the individual." I am not anti- business or anti-profit, but companies which perform vital government functions such as producing voting equipment must be adherent to the principles of a free and informed electorate, both in products and in deeds.
I recommend you support your students, and support their cause to inform the public where possible on these issues.
Please show your students that Democracy and Research are more important than corporate greed, and that transparency is critical when building a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.
[
Here's an eDonkey and Overnet link for the .bz2 file (remove the space !):
f ec 2da1548905bc689f|/
ed2k://|file|list.tar.bz2|7762005|c53855d1c5da1
Someone is wrong on the Internet!
http://suprnova.lagalot.com/torrents/469/lists.tgz (1).torrent
:wq
What scares me most is the apparently lack of cryptographical expertise. Now I'm not a crypto expert but I have perused Bruce Schneier's secure elections chapter in Applied Cryptography, and I work orthogonoly with security systems (e.g. Kerberos) - But even considering an embedded password, or operating system security, as any form of reliable security, is just absolutely bewildering. Have these people not heard of PKI? Signatures? Blinding? This is not "theoretical" stuff at all. It is a sad day when the security of democracy is relegated to that of the "next stupidest" competitor.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Oh, OK, I misunderstood.
I still think a Hall of Infamy would be a good idea though.
YAW.
Your head of state is a corrupt weasel, I hope you're happy.
I disagree with you one one (and only one) point.
"This is about an election, nothing - with the possible exception of the judicial system that may have to step in over this - is more important in our system of government."
The last US federal election made it clear that elections don't matter much. You can lose the election and still take control of the government.
"People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
I find that the legal climate concerning publications about computer security is becoming such that research in this area is increasingly being put in jeopardy. In large part this comes about as a result ofthe DMCA, but the problems that the DMCA cause are being exacerbated by companies issuing gag orders on publications that they find embarrassing or annoying. Should this be allowed to continue, fundamental research in the area ofcomputer security may well become an underground activity - with prior restraint on publication, gag orders on publications that do make it out and severe penalties on those who support or condone such publications or even such research even at second hand.
I urge Swarthmore to contest this legal threat and to continue to support academic freedom on all levels.
I also keep a mirror of the Diebold memos.
Bill O'Rielly is a populist, not a "true" conservative. Instead of wanting small, weak Federal Government that the Founding Fathers designed, he wants a "good" Federal nanny instead of a "bad" Federal nanny.
China's not communist you dummy. It's a REPUBLIC. See, it's in its name: Republic of China. Must be true.
It's 10 PM. Do you know if you're un-American?
Reading through that exchange, Ken Clark had also better hope the interviewer at his next job doesn't place a particularly high value on English skills and the ability to construct a sentence. Mind you, I could just be miffed because he violated one of my pet peeves -- loosing when he meant to use losing.
You have aptly demonstrated you are too stupid to be reading Slashdot. Here's a hint -- you agree with the parent! You just insulted someone by affirming what that individual said.
And you got modded up for it! Looks like you're not the only person around today who's too stupid to be reading Slashdot.
Incredible, isn't it? I found myself wondering just how many rows are going to be stored in their Access system on a typical machine. Never mind about performance issues (as others have pointed out) -- what about the robust (or otherwise) nature of Access when it comes to handling large quantities of data, and the recoverability of such data in a problem scenario?
I've seen people try to write little Access databases in the past and expect them to cope with millions of rows of data (usually they're the people who think referential integrity means how accurate the encyclopaedia is). I always heartily suggest they consider keeping the Access front end, if they must, for the forms and reports and so forth, but link the tables to a real database engine. You know, one which has transaction logging and can run DBCC, for example.
However, to Slashdot's credit, this has been the only time that Slashdot has caved it. They once got some pretty stern cease & desist letters from Micro$oft about some dodgy republishing about some NDA'ed MS-Kerberos documents, and they resisted. Does this mean that David Miscarriage is more powerful than Bill Gates?
Looks like you guys need independent international observers to watch your elections and make sure they are really conducted fairly...
i e= ISO-8859-1&safe=off&edition=us&q=%22election+obser vers%22
Just like the rest of us eh?
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&
BTW great coverage on this vital issue (the foundation of your "democratic republic") by your "free", "uncensored", "independent" mainstream media. Which reports that 70% of you guys still think Saddam/Iraq has something to do with 9/11. And that the war is for a regime change (and not the WMD someone was yelling about some time back).
You guys are making it way too easy for them. WAY too easy. Can't you at least make them sweat a little? I mean you're letting them get so obvious it's not funny. It's kinda disgusting actually.
The only difference is that M$ deliberately limited the number of simultaneous queries to five. Otherwise Access does have a robust DB engine.
Debunking the "59 Deceits"
Archive Mirror (11 mB)
Not sure.
Universal copyright is one of those things that many countries have all agreed to and ratified, in principle. Copyright enforcement might be one of those things where international borders don't quite have the same meaning.
-- clvrmnky
I've just recently been informed about the work of the Swarthmore Coalition for the Digital Commons, and I have to say if the attitudes and actions of these students represent your school, then I want my children attending Swarthmore College. The dedication that these students have in finding and supporting the truth should serve as an example of how honest, studious Americans can aid their country. Your support of the SCDC shows me that you are a man of integrity and honor, and I highly respect both you and Swarthmore College for shining a light in the darkness. Thank you for remaining strong in these chaotic times.
-Brian
Sig (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
I've heard it all now. Communist China conservative? What about the Cultural Revolution? What happened to 'no enemies on the left'?
Communism is the most extreme manifestation of loony leftism. They are your ideological cousins, and it is you leftist twits who should be ashamed of your history of making excuses for their wickedness.
Actually, it's more like a circle. The extreme right and the extreme left are essentially indistinguishable. So Chinese communism and Neocon conservatism are very much alike.
Just look at the US right now.
Freedom of information act: Gone.
Right to vote for the candidate of your choice: Going fast
The only real difference is that in China, the government owns the businesses ( although they are moving away from that somewhat), so government tells business what to do.
In the US businesses own the government and tell it what to do at the expense of the rights of the citizenry.
The differences are real, but the visible affects of these differences are becoming vanishingly small.
You should stop trying to redefine conservatism as anything that pampered Western liberal intellectuals don't like, and vice versa. It's dishonest and despicable.
I define it based on the actions of those leading the movement. They spew hatred, fear, and lies. Much like
China.
That is completely honest and morally good.
Defending traitors based on a lack of understanding of the political spectrum and your surrender to the filth these traitors spew is hardly an honest or righteous action for you to take.
Don't you dare have the audacity to call yourself a decent American if you can't even be bothered to face reality.
This stupid ultra-liberal backlash against patriotism is pissing me off. Patriotism != blindly following Dubya and his henchmen.
Liberal?!? Dubya and his cronies are the ones trying to redefine patriotism to mean just that. Anybody with a scrap of patriotism in them is backlashing against those lying traitors as hard as possible.
Cripes how can people be so freaking confused about basic ideas and still able to find their way out of bed in the morning is beyond me.
and I work orthogonoly with security systems
That word you're using?
I do not think it means what you think it means.
You work at right angles to security systems?
It really never was about "the chads", except in the U.S. media. What really happened is far worse.
Check this and this and this out. And this. And why not this, as well.
-- clvrmnky
"There are a BUNCH of good software engineers mathimaticians, and programmers reading these lists."
Good engineers and scientists do not succeed in business or politics, apparently. On the other hand, the people who DO succeed in business and politics are the same people who got picked first for the dodgeball team starting in kindergarten.
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
So you admit your bias.
It's my viewpoint, not a "bias." Do you consider yourself biased or do you consider yourself conservative? Answer me!
But you must realize that a majority of americans feel differently,
Then why did Gore get about half a million more votes than Bush?
Well, there is a long, proud tradition of murder in the USA also
We, as a people, are "proud" of murder? I don't think so. We are, however, proud of those who stood up to unjust laws.
The second was a clear violation of the law, and probably set the cause of civil rights back more than anything, by associating black activists with willful violations of the law.
You need to go back to your history books (assuming that you ever opened one in the first place). Historians generally view her act of civil disobedience as pivotal in advancing the cause of civil rights for blacks.
As for banning subversive activities, there is a well-established constitutional authority to override certain privileges when the national interest is at stake; considering the tradition of treason within the liberal movement, I don't think my suggestions are at all in conflict with this principle.
That sounds just like the rationale for Tiananmen Square massacre in Beijing in June 1989. Yep, just another case of self-righteous conservatives looking out for what they viewed as the national interest.
In short, I am for the use of state power to protect freedom,
How does protecting the interests of a corrupt, unethical corporation qualify as protecting freedom? How does the state protect freedom when it uses laws to hide documents that expose corporate corruption?
and you are for the use of state power to suppress freedom.
How? Please, tell me what I asked the state to do in this matter. Or was that just another in a long series of lies?
But wait, there's more! You can get the same raving lunatics passing rabid conspiracy theories who are also biased greedy corporate lackies at Fox News! Yay Capitalism!
Freenet does have one immediate advantage (though i'm sure you hardcore geeks won't appreciate it), Windows support.
What is so patrotic about the statement "stop your whining and get behind the president already", especially in the context of voting fraud?
It's a bad sign for our country when people think that patriotism means slient obedience to the President.
Patriotism is about love, support, and defense of one's country, not of one's head of state. It does not require the love of authority figures simply because of their authority. (Love of authority for authority's sake is, however, a characteristic of fascism, which was, I imagine, the point of the earlier AC's post.)
There's a reason we pledge allegiance to the Republic, and not to the President. People used to be compelled to swear an oath of allegiance to King George, but we don't do that anymore.
We need dissent, and we need people questioning the President. When people are afraid to tell the President what he doesn't want to hear, or otherwise disagree with him, the government stops working effectively. No one is right all the time, but when people are free to disagree with and criticize our leaders, we can avoid letting the mistakes of one man become the mistakes of our entire nation. That's what democracy is all about. It may be a pain in the President's neck sometimes, but it works better than anything else out there. After all, silent obedience to their insane King George didn't serve the British very well, did it?
Should the founding fathers have been told to quit their whining and rally behind King George like good British patriots? No doubt they were told as much by the Tories. Were they unpatriotic for not obeying? No, it was their very patriotism that led them to risk and sometimes to sacrifice their lives by defying the King.
More to the point, did they risk and sacrifice so much to give us freedom and the right to vote only to let us piss it away with unauditable and easily-manipulated elections? Should we stand by and let our vote be taken from us because, as some people think, patriots don't complain?
No! Dissent is the duty of the patriot. Open and free elections form the very foundation of this country. Those who would silence this healthy dissent regarding the safety of our elections with a call to patriotism may love something, but it's not America, at least not the America for which our forefathers fought and died.
Bad idea!
Despite absolute horrid SQL generated by Access as a front end I've seen nasty effects on industry strength databases. For example ghost locks on pages, which would only go away upon a server reboot.
Generally speaking I think that all "4GL" front ends are bad news in terms of performance, but what I've seen under Access is a desaster.
ich bin der musikant
mit taschenrechner in der hand
kraftwerk
it means that enemies of microsoft are not found mysteriously dead or framed for murder.
Snowden and Manning are heroes.
http://www.plastic-idolatry.com/diebold [user: diebold, password: die]