Take Two/Rockstar Reveals Plans, Designer Sues Over GTA

Thanks to Yahoo for reprinting the latest financial results of videogame publisher Take Two/Rockstar, including much information on new titles and plans. The company has announced Red Dead Revolver, "a stylish, western themed, gun-fighting extravaganza" for PS2/Xbox which was originally created for Capcom before developers Angel Studios became Rockstar San Diego and the project was handed over. Also noted is the "expected March release of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City... in Japan", after the licensed-to-Capcom GTA 3 "has sold approximately 300,000 copies... making it one of the most successful debuts of a Western video game in Japan." The company also announced the return of the Army Men franchise on their budget Global Star label, following the dissolution of creator 3DO earlier this year. However, there are also a few issues, as the SEC are unhappy with previous financial dealings, and "plan to recommend civil action against the company for alleged accounting violations", and elsewhere, a Scottish game designer has filed a suit claiming he, uncredited, inspired the design of the Grand Theft Auto series.

Comments

so..

[The Other White Boy]

..the guy invented the concept of warring street gangs? i guess then its only fair that the filmmakers from The Warriors sue him for prior art. =)

Re:so..

[daddy norcal]

so that means rockstar is ripping off two of his ideas?

Just what the gaming community needs...

[-kertrats-]

More Army Men games. Perfect.

Re:Just what the gaming community needs...

[Kyouryuu]

Ah the Army Man "franchise"... if you want to call it that. It's not like it's worth anything. In the dozen or more titles they've produced, there wasn't a single good one. The series has an awful reputation and why anyone would want to revisit it just demonstrates the rather sorry creative state of video games today.

Carmack suing all FPS developers...

[Numeric]

Carmack said: "All your FPS Belong to Me"

Re:Carmack suing all FPS developers...

[Matrix272]

Carmack said: "All your FPS Belong to Me"

Oh for Christ's sake, if you're going to make a joke, get the punchline right. It's "All your FPS are belong to me".

Re:Carmack suing all FPS developers...

[ameoba]

Umm... GTA is a THIRD PERSON game; nowhere in the article was a FPS even mentioned.

Re:Carmack suing all FPS developers...

[scot4875]

Thank you, captain obvious.

The original post was sarcasm, to be both funny and to make a point.

--Jeremy

Re:Carmack suing all FPS developers...

[Anonymous Coward]

failed and failed.

Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Gizzmonic]

Even if Rockstar doesn't want to bother with the costs associated with porting and publishing, why don't they sell the code to someone else? It would make money among those of us who don't want to fork out several hundred dollars in the form of a new console, new controllers, memory cards, etc just to play GTA.

Forget that "it's not financially viable" bullshit. GTA would make money. Tony Hawk made money on the Dreamcast and even the N64 (where Tony Hawk 2 was released just months before the Gamecube).

The problem is, Rockstar is just too fucking greedy. They take bribes out the ass from Sony to keep GTA PS2-only, while taking bribes from Microsoft to port the game over to Xbox. Way to go, Rockstar...you found a clause in your contract that lets you screw everybody. And take all their money.

Wait, all of a sudden, I don't want GTA anymore at all. Fuck those asstards for taking an old idea and humping it dry, then demanding bribes just to put it on their platform. They think they're hot shit now? Shit, there's plenty of imitators out there- I'll just buy True Crime or Simpsons Hit & Run for Gamecube and get the same experience. But first, I'm gonna get really drunk and pee all over the GTA Vice City logo at EBGames. Fuck you Rockstar, I hope Santa shits in your stocking!

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the problem is that the GameCube disks just don't hold enough information. Each one holds about 1.5 gigs, right? But if GTA III and/or Vice City are larger than 1.5 gigs, the game will have to be spread over multiple disks. Sure, it's possible to separate each island/area to a single disk, but there is one problem. The problem is that there are graphics and sounds that have to be used in all islands/areas, this means that all disks must contain a copy of all those radio stations and all the graphics.

We all remember those Final Fantasy and other multi-CD games for the PlayStation, right? The world map (and other multimedia) in the FF games had to be on each of the disks, consuming space on the CD. This eats up space that can be used for more game information (story, text, missions, etc).

This is probably the only real failing of the GameCube. Very large games will have to span multiple disks and that could be difficult for a developer to manage.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[darkmayo]

Come on Gizzmonic, tell us how you really feel.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[RaboKrabekian]

Rockstar is in business to make a profit. If they can make more money via contracts with Microsoft and Sony to *not* publish on the Gamecube then they can otherwise, then that's what they'll do. I'm sorry you feel left out, but as you pointed out, there are at least a few options for GC owners to get a GTA-like experience.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[musikit]

although i agree with you.

1. final fantasy is a PS title
2. GTA Vice City fits in under 2 PC CD ROMs AFAIK given most CD are 700 or 1.4 GB 1.5GB CD that gamecube has
3. games are getting close enough to need multiple DVDs!!! FUCK! Final Fantasy XI on PS2 comes pre-installed on the HD why?
a. people don't want to install games.
b. it's too big. it took 5 PC CD ROMs and 2.5 hrs of updates on cable/dsl

so yes multiple disks are "difficult" for developers to handle but they've done it before.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Mike Hawk]

Just for the record, min spec (according to ebgames.com) for GTA:VC PC is 915MB of hard disc space +635MB additional if your video card does not support DirectX texture compression. It should be obvious that the Gamecube would not support DirectX anything. This is already above the magic 1.5GB limit strictly for storage. It can be assumed that at the min spec some info streams off the disc even on PC. Has anyone done a full install of VC that can give a precise amount? It would be (presumably) extremely difficult to do GTA as a multidisc since (presumably) the map streams from the disc. There would be a point in the city where crossing the street meant switching discs. Ugh.

Its also probable there are techinical difficulties beyond pure storage. It is quite common for developers to have difficulty porting to Nintendo consoles due to their (and Sony's) significantly proprietary hardware. PS2 to XBOX is less of a problem because no "optimizing" needs to take place just to make it run.

Of course, truth be told, its still all just about cash. As in: Sony paid a bucketload to have GTA be exclusive. Rockstar eventually saw they could make more than a bucketload porting it to XBOX and got out of that deal. They obviously don't feel a Gamecube port would be profitable for whatever reason at this time.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[PainKilleR-CE]

1. final fantasy is a PS title

Which he said, though I think you might be thinking of FF1 being on a single CD with FF2. He was most likely referring to FFVII, VIII, and IX, which are multi-CD titles on the PS1 and still took up enough space to be multi-disc titles on the GameCube, if it weren't for the amount of duplication between discs.

2. GTA Vice City fits in under 2 PC CD ROMs AFAIK given most CD are 700 or 1.4 GB 1.5GB CD that gamecube has

Most CDs are 650MB, but that's beside the point. You also have to remember that you're installing that on your hard drive with the PC (at least I would hope so), so it's compressed data that is extracted to your drive. How big is your Vice City directory? Also, since it is installed to the drive, they don't need to repeat any of the data on both discs, as they would have to with a console title.

3. games are getting close enough to need multiple DVDs!!! FUCK! Final Fantasy XI on PS2 comes pre-installed on the HD why?

Close, yes, but they're not there, yet. Plus, you have the differences in DVD formats and the seeming reluctance to do double-sided discs (which would still have most of the problems of multi-disc releases).

a. people don't want to install games.
b. it's too big. it took 5 PC CD ROMs and 2.5 hrs of updates on cable/dsl

Even with 700MB CDs completely filled with data, that's still 3.5GB, which leaves plenty of space on a DVD-ROM. Still, without compression, it does get tight on a single layer, single sided DVD. Not to mention the fact that you'll need the hard drive anyway to play the game, and that console players wouldn't want to spend the time to install (as you said in a) a 3.5GB game to the hard drive as well as downloading whatever updates are available the first time they connect (which, given that the drive won't be out for a few months, could be quite a bit).

so yes multiple disks are "difficult" for developers to handle but they've done it before.

It's not even really difficult, it's just wasteful in terms of having to repeat content across discs when you're dealing with consoles. Some developers still use CDs for PS2 games, it all just depends on how much space they need. Obviously, for most of them, it's cheaper to use DVDs once they get past 650MB, but they'll still use CDs for single-disc titles if they can (though they probably wouldn't do additional work to make the game fit on a CD if it's close to the barrier). I'm about 90% sure that there are maybe 1 or 2 games out there that use multiple discs on the Cube, but I don't know what they are and don't own them (anyone else know?).

Of course, I have games on my PC that span multiple discs and take up 2-4GB of hard drive space, and they're not exactly new games. At the same time, PC developers seem quite reluctant to move to DVD-ROM format, as they seem to believe that the same gamers that spend $400 on video cards won't spend $40 on a DVD-ROM drive.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

I played FF1 on NES. Was it released for PS too?

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Matrix272]

At the same time, PC developers seem quite reluctant to move to DVD-ROM format, as they seem to believe that the same gamers that spend $400 on video cards won't spend $40 on a DVD-ROM drive.

I always thought that was a bit strange also. Most games come on 1-2 CD's, with a few coming in at 3. Very few have 4 or more (a couple notable examples would be Myst III: Exile, and Buldar's Gate). I believe Buldar's Gate had a separate version available for DVD, but I'm not sure about Myst III. My only assumption is that either they're concerned about too few consumers having DVD drives, or the cost to create DVD disks is higher than I would expect.

Aside from that, the gamers that spend $400 on a video card absolutely have DVD drives... probably DVD+/-RW drives at this point. However, that's only a relatively small niche market. If they're going to market a game, they want to reach the largest possible user base, and when the PC is concerned, that must be the CD drive... at least for another couple years. Eventually there will be an obvious shift away from the CD format. It'll probably happen as soon as Dell decides that the CD is obsolete, and DVD is the future. On the other hand, maybe they're waiting for the next big innovation in portable storage.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[random256]

Have you even stopped for a second to consider it may have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Rockstar? That maybe it was Nintendo refusing to port the title over? Or have we forgotten that Nintendo generally likes to keep family friendly games on their console, and not ones that are generally controversial and sponsor random violence?

And no, there's no basis for fact in anything I just said. I'm just reading in between the lines here.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[edwdig]

Nintendo doesn't have anything to do with porting the game. You pay Nintendo money to make your discs, and they make them for you.

In case you haven't noticed, Resident Evil is exclusive to the Cube. Nintendo bought Silicon Knights upon seeing Eternal Darkness, and then made it a Cube exclusive. True Crime is out on the Cube.

Nintendo got over the "family friendly games only" phase after the original Mortal Kombat bombed for the SNES. Just because Nintendo doesn't create games with random violence doesn't mean they don't let other people.

It's all Rockstar's decision.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[JFMulder]

Then why didn't it come over the the Xbox earlier? GTA3 and Vice City surely are aimed at the Xbox demographics.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[random256]

I didn't bother refuting the Xbox part. That part is public knowledge. Sony paid to keep it exclusive. As far as my nintendo comments go, refer to the part where I said the word controversial. GTA is definately that. Name the last title you saw nintendo publish that had that particular word associated with it. And Nintendo very much does get a say in what gets published for their system. They still keep a far tighter reign over what comes out than any of the other console manufacturers. And go ahead, mention Conker's Bad Fur day. I'll also point out, despite good sales, Rare no longer develops for them. As far as the random violence goes, you cited Resident Evil, which, last time I checked, has you killing zombies, not living random people. Yes, it's a horror game, but no, it's not about random violence. And the other even mildly violent games they've put out usually involve anthropomorphic cartoony animals.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[oskillator]

Just for the record, min spec (according to ebgames.com) for GTA:VC PC is 915MB of hard disc space +635MB additional if your video card does not support DirectX texture compression. It should be obvious that the Gamecube would not support DirectX anything.

Everything else aside, DirectX texture compression isn't the only kind of texture compression. The Gamecube supports S3TC, specifically.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Babbster]

2. GTA Vice City fits in under 2 PC CD ROMs AFAIK given most CD are 700 or 1.4 GB 1.5GB CD that gamecube has

One last thing that nobody has mentioned yet: Because games get installed on the PC hard drive, the information on PC game CDs can be heavily compressed. While there are forms of compression that can be done on consoles, game developers can't use as much because the decompression can cause extended load times (which tend to frustrate people as it is) and eat up clock cycles if decompressing on the fly (a real pain when doing more and more complex games).

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[PainKilleR-CE]

I always thought that was a bit strange also. Most games come on 1-2 CD's, with a few coming in at 3. Very few have 4 or more (a couple notable examples would be Myst III: Exile, and Buldar's Gate). I believe Buldar's Gate had a separate version available for DVD, but I'm not sure about Myst III. My only assumption is that either they're concerned about too few consumers having DVD drives, or the cost to create DVD disks is higher than I would expect.

Most of the titles using the engine from Baldur's Gate came in at 3-5 CDs. The first Baldur's Gate was the only one released on DVD afaik, and I had to look for quite a while to get it on DVD, too. Riven (Myst 2) came on DVD with one of my DVD-ROM drives. For a very short time, Fry's had a section of DVD-ROM based games, and it had a good number of titles (though small compared to even the Mac games section), but eventually publishers stopped even trying. Then again, I've heard that a couple of games coming down the pipe will be DVD, including HL2.

Aside from that, the gamers that spend $400 on a video card absolutely have DVD drives... probably DVD+/-RW drives at this point. However, that's only a relatively small niche market. If they're going to market a game, they want to reach the largest possible user base, and when the PC is concerned, that must be the CD drive... at least for another couple years. Eventually there will be an obvious shift away from the CD format. It'll probably happen as soon as Dell decides that the CD is obsolete, and DVD is the future. On the other hand, maybe they're waiting for the next big innovation in portable storage.

The funny part is that all of Dell's computers except for the absolute lowest-priced advertised PCs come with DVD-ROM drives. I think the real problem is that most of the publishers have taken DVD-ROM as a dual-format push, releasing on both CD-ROM and DVD-ROM, with the DVDs usually getting smaller numbers printed. This leads to it costing more to publish on DVD, even though the added cost is really only because it's a limited run in addition to the CD run. If a good title is released on DVD only, it would show them where the numbers really are, and push adoption for those few people that are lagging behind (when I mention DVD-ROM to people that don't have them in their computers, they ask why they would want to watch movies on their computers, it'd be nice if there was actual content for them to see). Something else that people still don't seem to understand is that DVD-ROM drives are perfectly capable of reading CD-ROM discs.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[PainKilleR-CE]

I played FF1 on NES. Was it released for PS too?

FF1 and FF2 (Japanese FF2, not the FF2 that was released on SNES, which is part of another PS FF package, either Chronicles or Anthology) were released earlier this year on the PS as FF Origins.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[PainKilleR-CE]

It would be (presumably) extremely difficult to do GTA as a multidisc since (presumably) the map streams from the disc. There would be a point in the city where crossing the street meant switching discs. Ugh.

More than likely they could cut between discs when moving from city to city, just as GTA:VC and GTA3 on the PS2 gives you loading screens between cities (and between missions). If you line up your content so that a disc switch happens in the same place as a major loading point on the PS2, it's not as big of a problem as it might seem.

That being said, the compressed textures and so forth on the PC/XBox version are higher quality than those on the PS2 version, leading to larger storage requirements, which may or may not be needed if they were to do a Cube port (then again, if they didn't do a port of higher quality than the PS2 version, people would complain).

Personally, I'm still trying to justify buying the XBox double pack when I already have the PS2 games, and it's just not getting through the logic gates in my head. Considering the PS2 double pack is $10 cheaper, I doubt I'll get much for trade-in.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Good Lord, you're fucking stupid. I feel like I'm talking to an animated piece of feces, but here goes.

Name the last title you saw nintendo publish that had that particular word associated with it.

Haha, you know you're gonna get blasted for bringing up the kiddy bullshit because it's so wrong. So you resort to an even more specious "controversial" label. How many video games are controversial, anyway?

Nintendo ALLOWED several companies to publish "controversial" games on the 'cube. Remember BMX XXX? Neither does anyone else, but it was controversial (and censored on the PS2, don't forget). True Crime is another GTA type game, Hitman 2 is on the 'Cube (without the Mosque level, but that was axed on all console versions at the request of the publisher, NOT Nintendo).

The fact is that Nintendo isn't stopping anyone from developing on the Cube due to blood, guts, sex, blasphemy, or whatever you might define as "controversial". Publishers have to make that choice now-and they generally don't like bringing out "controversial" games on any system-let alone one that has the reputation as a "kiddy" platform and dead last in the console race.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[edwdig]

Compressing the data on the disc would make console games load faster. It takes very little time to decompress data compared to the time it takes to read it off a disc.

Also, standard practice on the Cube (at least among decent developers) is to simultaneously load data while playing cutscenes. Take Eternal Darkness - no noticable load time other than when you first start playing. Turn the volume down during a cutscene, and you'll hear the laser moving back and forth rapidly between two sections of the disc.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're more than welcome to develop games yourself, and then distribute them to every platform in existence.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Rayonic]

Wait, all of a sudden, I don't want GTA anymore at all.

My god, you don't have any of the GTA games yet? Where do you live, the moon?

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Yaztromo]

Gamecube disks hold only roughly 1.5GB of data. Here is what a quick scan of the GTA3 and GTA:VC DVDs for the PS2 claim under some disc scanning:

• GTA3: 4 640 997 376 bytes
• GTA:VC: 4 667 004 928 bytes

I think you have your reason right there as to why there isn't a GameCube version of either title.

If you want to blame someone for this, blame Nintendo -- in an era when their competitors were releasing consoles that could handle ~8GB discs, they came out and released a console that can only handle ~1.5GB per disc. To me, that just seems extremely short-sighted.

Yaz.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, GTA3 for xbox is less than 1gig (I believe it was around 750meg) and Vice City was around 1.5meg.
So the GTA series could have been done technically on GameCube.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Matrix272]

Something else that people still don't seem to understand is that DVD-ROM drives are perfectly capable of reading CD-ROM discs.

AND, DVD-RW (or DVD+RW) drives are perfectly capable of writing CD-R's and CD-RW's. I can't even count the number of times people have asked me that...

I agree with everything you said. I didn't realize all the new Dell's come with DVD drives... are they standard?

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[ameoba]

Umm... at least for GTA3, the game takes up 450MB on my HDD, and has a play CD that's around 600MB. If anything, the GC version would be smaller, since textures & movies don't need the same resolution they do on the PC.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[unclethursday]

It should be obvious that the Gamecube would not support DirectX anything.

And the PS2 does? I somehow doubt the PS2's OS and Graphics Sythesizer are DirectX compliant.

Besides, the GC utilizes mostly OpenGL, which is a hell of a lot less bloated than DirectX. Most DirectX comands and code are 3x the size of the same OpenGL code.

PS2 to XBOX is less of a problem because no "optimizing" needs to take place just to make it run.

Proof? The PS2 uses prorietary graphics programs and OpenGL, not DirectX (which they would have to license from Microsoft to run, and I doubt MS would be licesnsig this to Sony). The only reason your statement is half true is because nVidia kept OpenGL drivers on the Xbox GPU, because nVidia is a supporter of both OpenGL and DirectX... but Microsoft does not make the OpenGL code easily accessible with SDKs. They want the games to run DirectX, you know, because the Xbox was originally called the DirectXbox...

Of course, truth be told, its still all just about cash.

Most intelligent thing I think you've ever said.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[_Sexy_Pants_]

Eternal Darkness, Conker, Resident Evil (still violent, check the rating it's M). Nintendo immediately tried to shake the family image when the gamecube came out. Take a look at the commercials and advertisements: While they aren't violent like the stupid N-Gage commercials, they aren't trying to be happy either (either wierd of "hip" if you ask me) Nintendo, as the smallest member of this system war, probably realizes that they're fighting an uphill battle. On top of that, GTA does extremely well on other systems, while Nintendo's other reputation that they're trying to shake is lack of third party support. Check it out, GTA would help that out nicely. I agree with the parent comment before, though he started to get a little huffy

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Dead last in the console race" ....?

When did the converstation shift towards talking about the Xbox? :)

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Right on Rayonic! Didn't that moron get the memo that we're all supposed to like the same games?

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Mike Hawk]

Very true. However, to answer my own question, the recommended spec for the PC version is 1.55GB storage +635 blah blah. So either way, no love. Then there is always the small development hitch of moving to the S3TC. Maybe easy, maybe not.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Mike Hawk]

Isn't having to swap at all an unacceptable compromise? I mean, if the game was bigger than oh say 8GB I guess swapping would be ok, but lets not make it alright when the game is less than 2GB.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Fryed]

The reason these disks seem so full is because of a little trick used to make games load faster. While the angular speed of the disk is the same no matter where you read it, it's the linear speed that's important. And the further out from the center you are, the faster the linear speed is. So, basically, the further out on the disc you are, the faster it loads.

So what they do is, they usually include a big, empty dummy file which they will put at the beginning of the disc. This pushes all of the important information into the faster-loading regions of the disc. Of course, this also means that a simple scan of the size of the disc will return a size close to the maximum size of the media.

Now, I don't claim to be an expert on GTA specifically, so I still can't answer about whether or not the game could fit on a 1.5 gb Gamecube disc.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Yaztromo]

I can buy that, although I can't find such a file on the GTA:VC disc.

However, the audio alone takes up roughly 2.4GB of space on the PS2 disc. This could, admittedly, probably be compressed to save space, however it still appears to me that when you include the cutscenes, models, and other media data for the game, it still takes far more than 1.5GB of space on the PS2 disc.

I would say that the GameCube disc size is at the very least a big disincentive to porting a game like GTA:VC to the GameCube.

Yaz.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Yaztromo]

Actually, GTA3 for xbox is less than 1gig (I believe it was around 750meg) and Vice City was around 1.5meg. So the GTA series could have been done technically on GameCube.

The two things don't necessarily follow. I don't have access to the XBox disc in order to verify what you're saying, but assuming it's correct, it doesn't necessarily mean that the game would fit onto a GameCube disc.

The reasons for this are potentially many, including the size of the GameCube compiled code and included libraries that need to be put onto the disc, and the possibility that the developer may not be able to take advantage of the same level of media data compression on the GameCube as on the XBox (while still maintaining the desired framerate and responsiveness).

I'm not saying that what you're claiming is completely false -- it may very well be that they could find a way to put GTA3 onto a GameCube disc -- simply that you can't really determine that just from looking at the Xbox filesizes (assuming, again, that your memory is correct).

Yaz.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[scot4875]

I think that the only disincentive to porting the game to the 'Cube that's worth worrying about is the exclusivity deals that Rockstar signed, that Sony and Microsoft paid for.

Anything else is just mindless rationalization.

--Jeremy

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[DeadScreenSky]

Though the disc size limitation mentioned by other people is a good reason, how about also the fact that various Nintendo representatives keep bad-mouthing the GTA series? Silicon Knights do it all of the time in online interviews, Miyamoto has done it several times (including at big conferences), etc. Why would Rockstar help out a company that keeps trying to publicly cut it down?

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[DeadScreenSky]

AFAIK, S3TC is basically the standard texture compression on PC, too. All current 3D cards support it, and a couple years ago it was a 'bullet-point feature'. I know several PC games outright use the compression method, but I couldn't name them with 100% confidence right now, other than the original UT including a whole extra CD of S3TC textures that look rather nice.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[daddy norcal]

Even if Rockstar doesn't want to bother with the costs associated with porting and publishing, why don't they sell the code to someone else? It would make money among those of us who don't want to fork out several hundred dollars in the form of a new console, new controllers, memory cards, etc just to play GTA.

Time to get with the program champ! There are 3 other systems on which you can play the GTA series. Chances are if the computer your posting on was built within the last two or three years even it can run it.

And have you ever noticed how small you gamecube discs are? They hold roughly 1.5gb, the current GTA is upwards of 4gigs, you want a 3+ disc game? The production and logistics incvolved at this point get more expensive.

Nintendo employees have repeatedly been quoted in the media as to saying that their system was geared towards younger gamers and did not support violent games. They have singled out GTA before as a game they felt did not fit their image. Not the way you get someones business.

And you expect Rockstar to 'sell' the game code to their franchise to some third rate publisher and developer? Are you fucking mental?!

The problem is, Rockstar is just too fucking greedy. They take bribes out the ass from Sony to keep GTA PS2-only, while taking bribes from Microsoft to port the game over to Xbox. Way to go, Rockstar...you found a clause in your contract that lets you screw everybody. And take all their money.

At first you condemn them for not porting their games to the 'cube, then you call them 'too fucking greedy' for brining it to more than one console. You hypocrite! Exclusivity rights are a major part of every big franchise, but its obvious from your whole post you dont know much about the games industry.

So go ahead and play your imitator games, at least we will have one less idiot who will be blaming GTA when they are arrested while commiting a felony.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[bugbread]

Sony initially had an exclusivity deal with Rockstar that they wouldn't publish on other platforms until, I believe, 2004, but Rockstar got that abridged, hence the early XBox release.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Ed_Moyse]

Er no. Not really. If the game is going to be technically difficult to convert (like for example, if they have to think carefully about what can be removed or compressed to make it fit) then Rockstar might want to look very carefully about whether it's worth their while.

IIRC the exclusivity deals had time limits ... so that is unlikely to be the only reason, and suggesting that the GC's smaller disc might be a factor is certainly not "mindless rationalization" as you (rudely) put it.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[unclethursday]

Why would Rockstar help out a company that keeps trying to publicly cut it down?

Yeah, they'd never release a GTA game to any Nintendo platform... er wait, it's coming to the GBA.

It seems more likely that Take Two/Rockstar are figuring that the GC is the 'kiddy' console, and thus wouldn't see very healthy sales on it. Which may or may not be correct in the sale part, since games like Eternal Darkness sold horridly, even though they were critically acclaimed.

The Resident Evil remake and 0 sold over a million units each on the GC, though.

But, we also have to remember that this is the same company that said Max Payne simply couldn't be done on the GC; yet it, and Max Payne 2, can be somehow magically done on the technically (read: specs) inferiror PS2. Oh, and Max Payne is coming to the GBA as well...

It seems just as likely, if not moreso, that Rockstar wants to continue to portray the GC in the 'kiddy' image by not bringing out the high sellers on the other consoles. Yet they know they can potentially make a profit on the GBA, so they'll go there, even though it is far less powerful than the GC or even the N64.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[vrai]

OK - GTA3 and GTA:VC started out as Sony exclusive titles. This made Rockstar lots of money, and because Rockstar are a business they took it. Being paid only to release games for the most popular console (by a huge margin) is a good deal.

Later on GTA3 and GTA:VC were ported to the PC. This took a lot of work but was worthwhile because the PC is a huge market.

The XBox is 733Mhz PC in a black and green box. Thus porting the game to this platform required relatively little extra work over the PC version. Also the XBox tends to sell to older gamers, who are more likely to want to buy (and be legally allowed to buy) adult titles such as GTA.

The GC architecture is completely different to either the PS2 or the XBox/PC. Whilst it sells in similar numbers to the XBox it is aimed at a younger audience. Older gamers who have GCs usually have at least one of PC/XBox/PS2 as well. Thus it does not make business sense to spend money porting a game (and it would be a big port) to a platform that is unlikely to generate the same level of sales as the currently supported ones.

Just do what most gamers I know did, and buy a PS2 and an XBox as well. That way you get the best of all worlds.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[PainKilleR-CE]

I didn't realize all the new Dell's come with DVD drives... are they standard?


They are, as I said, except on the lowest-priced PCs. Even then, it costs about $30 to upgrade to a 16x DVD-ROM drive from the 48X CD-ROM drive (and they're putting CD-RW drives in there for the second drive for XMas).

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[PainKilleR-CE]

Isn't having to swap at all an unacceptable compromise?

Unacceptable? On consoles? Not really. I still have plenty of games that I have to swap discs on because they're over 650MB.

On the other hand, if this were a PC we were talking about, I'd agree, because the PC has a hard drive and, if I choose the largest installation option, I shouldn't have to swap discs while I'm playing.

I mean, if the game was bigger than oh say 8GB I guess swapping would be ok, but lets not make it alright when the game is less than 2GB.

What about 4GB? Or, to make the number more accurate, 4.7GB? At that point you'll probably be swapping discs on some DVD-based consoles, depending on whether or not the console reads double-layered game discs.

While the Cube's discs aren't big enough for most of the FF games produced for the PS1 and PS2 to fit on a single disc, they have been an acceptable size for the majority of the content currently available on their platform.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[iainl]

'Forget that "it's not financially viable" bullshit.'

No bullshit here. The significant technical questions of getting GTA3 onto the Cube almost certainly outweigh the benefits they could get. Cube owners without either of the other current consoles are not a big market (as dire sales of multiplatform GC titles demonstrate on a regular basis), and Cube-only owners who want to play GTA3 are probably even smaller.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[SuiteSisterMary]

I believe that S3TC is what Microsoft licensed into DXTC.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nintendo employees have repeatedly been quoted in the media as to saying that their system was geared towards younger gamers and did not support violent games.

I call bullshit. I've never head anyone from Nintendo saying something like this about the Cube. In fact, they've said exactly the opposite and have worked hard to bring mature games to the cube, publishing Eternal Darkness, Metroid Prime, Geist and working to get the Biohazard series to be cube-exclusive.

LKM

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[Mike Hawk]

Wow, so I guess its a question of lowered expectations. Got it now.

Re:Why does the Cube get screwed?

[PainKilleR-CE]

Yes, it is lowered expectations, because the system has a 1.5 GB disc, you shouldn't expect it to mystically hold more data. If it's a PC, you have a hard drive, and though game developers seem to think it's perfectly all right to swap discs after you've installed most of the data to your drive, I do not (hence I've used no-CD cracks on any game I expect to play in single player only that I have purchased for my PC). If it's a PS2, I don't expect a disc to hold more than a single-layered DVD, and if it's an XBox, I don't expect a disc to hold more than a double-layered DVD. Furthermore, even though the XBox has a hard drive, I don't expect to have to install a game before I play it.

Has anyone heard of or seen 'Crime Inc'?

[@madeus]

Has anyone hear of or seen Crime Inc, the game this guy developed?

(or was it just some personal project that was never released publically?)

Re:Has anyone heard of or seen 'Crime Inc'?

[ggambett]

You should RTFA (yeah, I know - I'm new to Slashdot, am I?). The guy showed his work in a job interview for a company that later become Rockstar.

However, I agree with you in a sense... the game wasn't known to the general public. Besides, I thought game "concepts" or "gameplay" or whatever couldn't be patented. As many other posters said, should we expect all FPS makers being sued by John Carmack? It doesn't make any sense.

Re:Has anyone heard of or seen 'Crime Inc'?

[Alkaiser]

It's not that they copied his game. He's saying they took idea from the work he submitted to them as part of the interview, and kept...then used the ideas in that game to make GTA. Of course, why he'd wait 6 years after the launch of GTA to bring this up is anyone's guess.

Re:Has anyone heard of or seen 'Crime Inc'?

[@madeus]

I did read the article, and by which I mean actually read it, not skimmed it and inferred meaning into it. :P

That he showed it in a interview as 'an example of his practical ability' has no bearing on whether or not it was actually released (where possible, I show released and public examples of my software when in interviews).

The article simply says this about it:

His game, Crime Inc, which was developed between 1991 and 1993, involved gangs taking part in street crime.

It does not actually indicate if the game was released to the public. I'd like to know if it was, and if anyone has played it/seen it/knows of screen shots/reviews of it.

It remains to be seen whether is case has merit (like most readers I strongly suspect it does not) but it is a legitimate type of claim - I don't think it's like Carmack claming he had rights over all FPS's (which I think he very possibly could in the US, if he had a patent and pending no prior art). It's much more like Carmack claming rights over a 'game set in the future in which a space marine is sent to Mars and faces single handed armed combat with a large number of zombies and demons' (and the credibility of that claim would depend on exactly what ideas have been 'ripped off'). It's my understanding that the content of the game is the issue of debate (though I'd love to see more of Crime Inc, to know if their are other obvious similarities).

Somewhat iterestingly, I used to work in the building opposite DMA design in Dundee (and look out the window at them, less than 100 yards away), when I worked for SOL/Scottish Telecom. Dundee is a city with two Universities, and an economoy of low wages, mostly in the retail sector (due to complete collapse of industry in the area 1900's). As a result of being a small city, a good distance from any other similar sized cities, and having two Universities (yet with a low wage economy) it has no shortage of skilled workes who can be employed for far below market rates, and in the case of students and given the prestige of DMA, you only need to pay them very little indeed (you basically just need to feed them pizza).

I have heard many times from quite a few people that this is exactly what they did - employ interns as 'cheap/free labour'. This was not entirely a bad deal fo those employed, and they did so willingly, but if they are willing to take such gross advantage of students (who don't really know their own market worth, not only because they arnt in the market place, but because Dundee is not quite in touch with 'rest of the word') then it may set you thinking maybe they are willing to rip off someone interviewies idea.

Re:Has anyone heard of or seen 'Crime Inc'?

[biscuit67]

I think you're reading *WAY* more in to this than required. I worked at DMA and they were never very tight on keeping track of resume's received and demo disks. In the early years, there was talk of a game that goes along the lines of somehow hurting sheep. This was a David 'Oz' Osbourne idea. This is what, I understand, eventually morphed in to GTA.

If only he got a software patent...

[qbproger]

this would be an open and shut case, and no one would ever be able to make a video game about crime. But who needs choice?

Release Schedule

[asdren]

you left out some main titles:

Manhunt on PC and Xbox next year, along with a new Grand Theft Auto game. The GBA will also get a GTA game. A release date for Duke Nukem Forever (late 2004, early 2005) was mentioned during the investors conference call but of course officially it will still come out "when it's done".

more people to sue

[obsid1an]

This guy might want to be careful. The Haitians and the relatives of anyone who has been killed by some kid with a gun might sue him too.

In related news...

[Toddarooski]

His game, Crime Inc, which was developed between 1991 and 1993, involved gangs taking part in street crime.

In related news, EA/Bullfrog has sued Mr Gallagher, of Queen Margaret Drive, Glasgow. Bullfrog claims the plot, look, structure and style of his game Crime, Inc. closely resembles that of Syndicate, a game they shipped in November of 1993.

Unnecessarily harsh

[cgenman]

Right, but nobody at the company remembers him or has any record of him, so that can't be taken as evidence. Google searches yield nothing, and Moby has never heard of him. For a computer consultant, he keeps a very low profile.

While game concepts can't be patented, games can be copyrighted. Think "K.C. Munchkin." Overly derivitave games can and will be shot down in court. But does Gallager have a case? Grand Theft Auto, a sprite-based top-down shooter, looked like most of the other games out there at the time. The artistic style was nice, but it was a straight rip of any number of 16 bit racing games. The "plot" was a laughable joke, mostly "answer phone, assassinate somebody, answer phone, steal a car." Games about crime had been done before, though none made the same cultural splash. Really, the thing that would make or break this case is if the unique mechanic of car jacking was in Gallager's game... but as nobody seems to have seen it, we simply won't know until it goes before a judge.

Re:Fp indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Good job, kudos.

Well done, sir.

Take 2 is a billion dollar company now...

[cdneng2]

It's interesting to note that Take Two has net sales over the BILLION dollar mark.

Re:Take 2 is a billion dollar company now...

[JFMulder]

Yeah, but it depends on your definition of billion dollar company. These are just sales, after everyone takes their own cut and the employees are paid, there's *only* a few hundred millions left.

Amazing that a game about killing innocent people by driving over them and killing other gangsters could make so much money.

He might have a case, but...

[inkless1]

...even if it was legit, it seems like it would pertain to GTA and GTA2, Rockstar could easily claim (I'd think) that the 3D makeover divorces it from any code this guy handed his interviewer. And GTA3's success was certainly not built on top of those two games, which were moderate sellers at best.

does anyone know

[Anonymous Coward]

what the development status of the next GTA game is?

YOU FAIL IT

[Anonymous Coward]

"His game, Crime Inc, which was developed between 1991 and 1993, involved gangs taking part in street crime."

Bullfrog loses.

One lawsuit tends to follow another

[MMaestro]

"a Scottish game designer has filed a suit claiming he, uncredited, inspired the design of the Grand Theft Auto series."

And I'm sure this has absolutely no relationship with Sega sueing Fox regarding the Simpson's Hit and Run game.

Rockstar = Who to sue in the game industry for easy publicity

Re:One lawsuit tends to follow another

[Gumbuoy]

My nit to pick.

Its over Simpsons Road Rage, a complete different game to Hit And Run.

Found the answser

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll answer my own question AC to not karma whore. The PC recommended spec is 1.55GB + the optional 635. That is larger than the 1.5GB disc, and likely some info is still streamed from the CD.

A full install in probably larger than this even.

Original GTA demo

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a link to some of the original isometric rendering code used for a GTA like demo. Way to go Mike! Get your suit on, you're going to court! http://www.mikedailly.com/programming.htm

uhh

[Scudsucker]

They hold roughly 1.5gb, the current GTA is upwards of 4gigs, you want a 3+ disc game?

I don't know about GTA3, but GTA:VC for the PC comes on just two discs...well under 1.5GB.

Re:uhh

[daddy norcal]

The only reason it fits onto two cds is the game is then uncompressed onto a pc hard drive. With a drive-less console it doesnt work that way.

Re:uhh

[Scudsucker]

They could use transparent decompression a la Knoppix.