GM's OnStar System Hacked

Makarand writes "According to this Mercury News article users of GM's OnStar system are finding that they can modify their OnStar unit to make it work with commercially available mapping software after disconnecting it from the OnStar network. Websites and message boards are rife with step-by-step instructions to personalize OnStar's navigational and communications components. When a driver requests directions from OnStar his GPS data is routed over an analog cellular network to OnStar computers and the directions are read back to the driver on the same network. The price for this service is around $400 each year. Those who tap into their OnStar systems pay no such fees."

Comments

Cool and all, but

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with a hand-held GPS unit and a map?

Or just a map?

Re:Cool and all, but

[andy1307]

Or a Cell phone equipped with a GPS receiver?

Re:Cool and all, but

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

What's wrong with a hand-held GPS unit and a map?

The answer is contained in your question : "hand-held" and "map".

And some people wonder why there are so many road accidents ...

Re:Cool and all, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Err , given that you have to phone up onstar to find your location , hence use a phone anyway , what
exactly is the issue here?

You've never seen an onStar-equipped car have you?

Re:Cool and all, but

[AKnightCowboy]

Err , given that you have to phone up onstar to find your location , hence use a phone anyway , what exactly is the issue here? YOu stop the car to read your had held GPS and pay nothing , or you stop the car to phone onstar and pay $$$$$$.

Have you ever used Onstar before? At least with my Grand Prix you just push the blue button, it cuts out the radio and you have hands-free communication with the person. It's kind of neat, but I've never used it so I didn't renew it when my free 1 year was up. The only advantage I saw was that if you're in an accident and the airbags deploy they'll call you to make sure emergency services gets to you. I didn't think it was worth $17 for this safety package though since I have a cell phone already. I never used it for directions since I'm a man... we never ask for directions!!! Now, if I could use my otherwise useless onstar system built into my car with a laptop then I find it interesting.

Re:Cool and all, but

[diverman]

Hmmm... Once I have the destination plugged in (which I do before I get in the car), my hand-held (which isn't in my hand at the time), tells me when to turn and gives me warnings as I approach an intersection or offramp.

Many hand-held GPS mapping systems I've used have the ability to tell you direction.

I'm not knocking OnStar, but portable devices can accomplish many of the same features for a flat cost, not a subscription fee.

-Alex

Re:Cool and all, but

[mcpkaaos]

Road-safety tips from the only Dukes of Hazzard character who spent more time crashing into swamps, buildings, trees, Enus (teehee) than on the road? What's next, Microsoft researching solutions to spam? Pshaw.

Re:Cool and all, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Have you ever installed a decent CD player in an Onstar equiped vehicle, it cost another $150.00 for the cables.
The only thing I need from Onstar is get my car unlocked from a distance without calling a locksmith, $50.00 every five to ten years and if it's stolen to give the police the ability to shut it down, cost zero.
For that I need to pay them $400.00 a year, fuck them.
The only people signing up are idiots with money to blow.

Re:Cool and all, but

[Anonymous Coward]

I got lost once, called the customer on the phone and said, "Where are you?" He replied, "Look in your rear view mirror". Sure enough, I did, and there was his place of business, right behind me!

Re:Cool and all, but

[spectre_240sx]

Onstar is about much more than just GPS though. The ability to talk to a live operator (here come the matrix jokes) within seconds of hitting the button is certainly nice. They monitor airbags and dispatch emergency vehicles in the case of an accident and will even make reservations at restaurants for you if you want. Personally I believe the service is well worth what they charge, but if all you need is GPS, then a hendheld unit makes perfect sense.

Re:Cool and all, but

[rtoomey]

Actually, I've found that a hand-held unit can be used quite safely. I have a Garmin V hand-held GPS. I mounted it with velcro on top of my Chevy Suburban's steering column, just in front of the speedometer. The Garmin's small size allows it to be placed in this location (in a Suburban, at least) without obscuring my view of the speedometer (with the exception of the odometer and any speed less than 15mph or greater than 90mph). I can see the Garmin right through the steering wheel (just like my speedometer), and it will not interfere with the airbag deployment. The LCD has a nice backlight (two brightness levels) that is harmonious with the gauge illumination provided with the GM instrument cluster. Power can be supplied by a DC adapter that plugs into one of the three auxiliary "cigarette lighter style" power sources provided on the dash. I've considered a laptop-based GPS, but I think the Garmin (or any dash-mounted GPS located within easy view of the driver) is much safer to use in a vehicle. I have only one complaint about the Garmin GPS V: its 20Mb of map memory. That's about enough memory to load a MapBase that will cover, say, eastern Massachusetts and southeast Maine & NH. If you want to switch the MapBase to another region, you have to select THAT 20mb worth of data in the MapSource application that comes with the Garmin, and then download it from your PC to the GPS via a slow (115,000bps) serial connection. Takes about 40 minutes for 18mb.

Re:Cool and all, but

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, when the airbags deploy. :-) Strangely enough, this idea was the extension of one I had when I was about 10 years old (to put sensors into cars that would detect collisions and call the authorities in the event of a crash). Since my dad works for GM, this actually made it into onstar. Funny that when I tell my friends one of the major aspects of OnStar was MY invention, they never believe me.

Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

When your arm gets cut off in your next auto accident, who will call for the ambulance?!

Re:Yes, but...

[Rahga]

Fortunately, if you can't reach the OnStar button once your arm's been sliced off, they will call you if a collision has been detected.

Re:Yes, but...

[vasqzr]

Not if you've hacked your car and it's not connected to OnStar anymore....

Re:Yes, but...

[tacocat]

Actually, the unit will still call OnStar because of the Airbag.

I didn't see anything that says the unit is incapable of calling OnStar even after the hacks are in place.

Re:Yes, but...

[Rahga]

You must be the only Counter-Strike player left that doesn't use aimbots.

Re:Yes, but...

[epyx]

Slightly off topic..
I am a paramedic in Ohio, and the OnStar system called our dispatchers stating there was an accident with ejection, giving us the freeway the guy was on and what exit he was at. I guarantee this guy didn't hit his OnStar button, as he was shot twice and ejected, then subsequently turned into about 6 pieces of hamburger meat as he hit the exit sign.

Apparantly, OnStar calls the police and EMS to an accident when your airbag goes off, and they have a sensor to detect when you're sitting in the driver's seat. Airbag went off, senors in the seat said 'hey wait, no driver no more' and called the correct ambulance company to respond. Kind of neat when you think about it.

Re:Yes, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

hear

fuckin

hear

Re:Yes, but...

[pinqkandi]

Yes, that's correct. The on airbag deployment, OnStar attempts to talk to the driver to make sure it wasn't a false alarm, or that no one was hurt and no ambulance is needed. If no response is given, or the driver says there are injured occupants, an ambulance is called.

It's really neat. I have it on two Impala's. One has OnStar Safe & Sound activated, and the other does not. The one that doesn't is getting hacked :-)

Re:Yes, but...

[Phurd Phlegm]

Slightly off topic.. I am a paramedic in Ohio, and the OnStar system called our dispatchers stating there was an accident with ejection, giving us the freeway the guy was on and what exit he was at. I guarantee this guy didn't hit his OnStar button, as he was shot twice and ejected, then subsequently turned into about 6 pieces of hamburger meat as he hit the exit sign.

Apparantly, OnStar calls the police and EMS to an accident when your airbag goes off, and they have a sensor to detect when you're sitting in the driver's seat. Airbag went off, senors in the seat said 'hey wait, no driver no more' and called the correct ambulance company to respond. Kind of neat when you think about it.

So that $400 per year really paid off for him, eh? His "six lumps of hamburger" didn't have to wait for someone to just stumble across him.

Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[csnydermvpsoft]

All they're doing is modifying the GPS unit to work with a regular computer, while at the same time making the rest of the system (including emergency functions) inoperable. Why not just pay $50 for a basic GPS receiver?

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

All they're doing is modifying the GPS unit to work with a regular computer, while at the same time making the rest of the system (including emergency functions) inoperable. Why not just pay $50 for a basic GPS receiver?

It seems to me that having wardriving componentry integrated into the car is stylish amd more discreet, so it does have value.

I guess the next step will be to add a 802.11b interface to the engine computer and port Linux to it.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[niko9]

They are also voiding the warranty on the whole car as per GM. Doesn't sound like it's worth it, especially if you shelled out extra for an extended warranty.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Tim Doran]

This could be FUD on the part of GM. I remember a few years ago, Mazda Canada tried to claim that your warrently would be void if your car was serviced by anyone other than a Mazda dealer. Needless to say, they lost the court challenge.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Ioldanach]

This could be FUD on the part of GM. I remember a few years ago, Mazda Canada tried to claim that your warrently would be void if your car was serviced by anyone other than a Mazda dealer. Needless to say, they lost the court challenge.

This isn't service, this is a modification to the vehicle. Given the tie-ins the vehicles computer systems have to each other, I'd expect the manufacturer could successfully argue to a judge that hacking into one of the systems is sufficently capable of causing harm to the rest of the vehicles systems that they're justified in voiding the warrantee.

Even being a computer guy, and confident that if I wanted to I could probably execute the instructions without harm to the vehicle, I'd tend to agree. The vehicle might suffer no harm, but now the authorized service centers don't know what's going on inside, so they can't guarantee everything will work as designed.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[bconway]

This is incorrect. See the Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Otto]

This is definitely FUD on the part of GM. The Magnusson-Moss Act of 1975 specifically addresses this. Mainly, while modifying your OnStar system may void the warrenty on the OnStar box, they need to be able to *prove* that your modification was the actual cause of whatever is wrong with the car before they can claim that it's not covered under the warrenty.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[kfg]

I can see the future of hot rodding now:

"Yeah, I've made some really neat modifications to my Corvette. You should see how fast it compiles a kernel."

KFG

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[d3faultus3r]

How about a Linux firewall within the firewall of the car. Oh the layers of sweet delicious open source irony.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[pigscanfly.ca]

I'd like to see that :-)
Heres what I see as the "road map":
Of course revision one wouldnt support braeking , but who needs breaking ?
Just drive real slow :-)
Version two will support intermitent breaking (it always locks) but thats ok .
And eventualy version three will be fully functional
Version 4 will break everything , but there will be a cool splash screen. ....

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[ReTay]

As has been discussed here before they can't void your warranty because of that. Mabey your warranty on the onstar system but not the entire car..

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[the_mad_poster]

You young bucks are so spoiled.

You are aware, I assume, that even if the electronic assitance to your brakes goes out you can use good old fashioned muscle to stop the car? Yes, it's very hard to stop a 2800 pound block of aluminum/steel on wheels if you're not used to it, but it can be done and it can even be done in an emergency if you use the (drum roll please) "emergency break" to assist you. Therefore, you CAN still brake even if the system doesn't support a driver for your power braking system yet.

Heh... my post sounds like a typical Linux/BSD zealot response to a feature question:

N00b: Hey, why doesn't Aut0Linux support power braking?

Zealot1: Who cares? Nobody needs that! It's for lusers!

Zealot2: j00 5Ux0R5!!!11! L1/\/Ux 15 7h3 r0x0r5!!!1!!!

N00b: Uhh... right.

I kid because I love :)

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[forkboy]

I think GM would have a hard time convincing a judge that your meddling with the car's computer network caused a leak in the coolant or made a ball joint crack. You can't really cause physical defects to a car via the computer.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[valkraider]

Some volkswagen dealers won't hook their diagnostic computers to your car if you have an aftermarket stereo for just this reason. The stereo computer is connected to the engine computer, and the diagnostic computers can check and set things in the radio system. There are conditions that can exist which cause third party radios to fry diagnostic computers.... I am sure that OnStar components could be just as integrated into the engine computer...

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[operagost]

That would be a design flaw, wouldn't it? Kind of like tying, say, your web browser to your base OS in such a way that they can't operate apart.

I don't see why the stock radio would have to be present for any technical reason. From what I know as an amateur installer, all that most third-party head units tie into are two 12V lines (one always on, one on with key) and possibly a 12V line to the power antenna. The worst case is that your radio shorts out spectacularily and blows a fuse. Oh yeah, and speakers, but last time I checked those weren't tied to the computer core either.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[SEE]

Disputing only one thing. GM is nowhere quoted as saying that this may void the warranty on your car, so it isn't "definitely FUD on the part of GM". The OnStar CTO quoted specifically says "From my own perspective -- and GM may feel differently" in the article.

Now, yes, OnStar is a subsidiary of GM and so this guy is, ultimately, working for GM. But this guy really is a fairly minor cog in the GM machine expressing a personal opinion. He quite likely knows nothing about car warranties, and is almost certainly not passing on a message from above.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Otto]

This is likely because VW's are shit. If it's that easy to fry their diagnostic equipment, then why in the hell don't they put an opto-isolator inline with the diagnostic box's connection and prevent all electrical surges from making it to the diag box? Because they are idiots, that's why.

The radio and OnStar and such is tied together in GM vehicles too, using what is known as a class 2 network. Basically, there's a single wire running to every module in the car, including the radio and the OnStar box (and even the CD Changer if you have a factory one). They all communicate with each other using the J1850 VPW protocol. Yes, I suppose that if you ran some large amount of voltage on that wire, you could conceivably fry the modules, but then the car wouldn't work anymore in a fairly obvious way and so you really wouldn't have a hard time figuring out the problem. Certainly the computer wouldn't figure it out by hooking it up, since there's nothing for it to talk to in the car anymore.

Anyway, this guys mod is pretty basic and doesn't involve tinkering with the "brain" of the OnStar box in any way. All he did was to solder a serial connection onto the GPS board and then disconnect that board from the OnStar system. The GPS doesn't talk to the rest of the car directly, it goes through the brain unit. So nothing this guy does to the GPS can really affect the rest of the vehicle. It's not connected to the rest of the vehicle after he's done with it. Except insofar as it's drawing power from the vehicle.

As always, if you don't know what you're doing, you shouldn't mess with your car's electronics. But if you're inclined to tinker with your car, and you are capable of understanding electronics, it's not really difficult to figure out how this stuff works. This isn't brain surgery here, anyone with rudimentary electronics skills can work it out and get stuff to work correctly. If it was all that complicated, mechanics wouldn't be able to do it (no insult to mechanics intended, they simply have more of a mechanical viewpoint instead of an electronic viewpoint in very general terms).

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[texaport]

A better hack would be to combine HFD (hand-free driving) with OnStar and The Clapper

--
I have 12 server room Clappers(TM) for sale.
Used just once, prior to my own redeployment.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Lumpy]

that is utter bullcrap and you know it.

you cannot void a warrenty on anything but single components in a car and only AFTER proving that the modification caused the failure.

otherwise adding a trailer-hitch, changing your car stereo, adding the 7 foot tall wing, the 8 inch diameter tailpipe and other poser-wannabe parts would be voiding warrenties...

or how about something important.. like adding a performance chip or upgrading the breaking system on your car...

GM doesnt void the car's warrenty on a Corvette when the owner has racing breaks installed.

so quit spreading lies.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[slowbad]

A better hack would be to combine HFD (hand-free driving) with OnStar and The Clapper

Maybe you meant "hands-free driving" ?
Clapping is not untrivial with just one hand...

--
It's time to protest MUA (made up acronyms).
Everyone knows farmers use 'HFD' for Herefords.
There are going to be some mad cows if this continues.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[fastgood]

I think GM would have a hard time convincing a judge

General Motors has good attorneys. They'd probably start off by saying they knocked off $100 from the real cost, since On-Star assists the GMAC repo guys.

--
I'm sorry, Dave.
I cannot open your door for you.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[way2trivial]

CANADA, MAZDA CANADA.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[wwwillem]

Anyway, this guys mod is pretty basic and doesn't involve tinkering with the "brain" of the OnStar box in any way. All he did was to solder a serial connection onto the GPS board and then disconnect that board from the OnStar system.

I couldn't figure out from his description whether he did, but it should be possible to tap onto the serial signal and still keep the OnStar connected and functioning. I don't know if that Motorola protocol is a two-directional protocol, but normally with GPS protocols (like with NMEA) the unit just sends it's data over the wires, not listening to any input.

If you take a NMEA GPS unit and you just connect the TxD (from the GPS' point of view) and the GND wires you can read the lat/long with your laptop. Because you don't send any info to the GPS, that TxD signal can go to many listeners. Been there, done that!!

So, in case of the 5V logic of the Motorola OnCore, you maybe have to add one or two diode's, but it should probably be possible to tap off the GPS signal, leaving the OnStar system functioning as it was before.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Otto]

Actually, yeah, you probably could. Reading the hack, it seems that when you switch the GPS into NMEA mode, OnStar can't talk to it anymore and the light changes from green to red. Stick it back into Motorola Binary mode and OnStar is fine with it. So assuming you could talk to it in Motorola Binary mode, no problem.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[valkraider]

The actual problem is with the "K" wire. It has to be disconnected when using aftermarket radios, but many installers don't know that. But even if your "K" wire has been disconnected, many dealers won't trust your just saying so... VW also makes an adapter you can use for aftermarket radios, which essentially just disconnects that wire... Usually though, once a dealer has verified or disconnected themselves, they will mark your records and it won't be an issue in the future.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[AoT]

If by computer you mean only the OnStar unit, then maybe. But you could seriously screw your engine by messing with the car computer.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Anonymous Coward]

"Check out my Tux racer..."

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[ColaMan]

The worst case is that your radio shorts out spectacularily and blows a fuse

Please, take care when you install radios....

The fun starts if your radio installer is looking for an earth. As an auto electrician, I've seen this all too often....

(Installer probes with test light on original stereo wiring)
"Here's a wire that's earthed, I'll use that!"

Oops. The earth was in fact a wire for the dash lights (to light the light in your factory stereo). Now you blow fuses every time you turn your park lights on, because the radio often gets an earth from the frame or the antenna as well. Or, if you're unlucky, you blow the ($100)dimmer module for your dash lights because the designers didn't think they'd *ever* get a short circuit there.

Now imagine that wire that appears to be earthed is going into your engine or body computer for some mundane function (eg. stereo's on, ok, I'll raise the antenna) and you've got expensive problems.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[SpaceLifeForm]

That gives a whole new meaning for wardriving. Imagine someone taking control remotely.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[tkrotchko]

Nice FUD, but highly unlikely, and probably illegal to void a warranty just because you modded your car.

Adding aftermarket wheels is a bigger deal than modding your OnStar, and I've never heard of GM or anybody voiding warranties over aftermarket wheels.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[DavittJPotter]

No? Hack the engine control computer, change your rev limiter 1,500 rpm higher, and then set your automatic transmission's shift points to 250 rpm before the rev limiter. Don't allow upshifts until 4,500 rpm even under non-WTO. Don't 'blur' downshifts.

Before too long, you'll have blown up either your motor, tranny, or CV joints. Conversely, set shift points way low, and the motor will lug constantly, never building proper oil pressure and working too hard in the RPM range.

Now, mucking with On-Star probably won't wreck things, but don't be too sure. GM can do remote diagnostics on your engine control computer via On-Star.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[freeslacker]

what is non-WTO? this is the only part I didn't understand

Did you mean non-WOT as in non-Wide Open Throttle?

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[JakiChan]

There is a good explination of the "Aftermarket Radio Problem" here and it even tells you how to test for it (I think your average dealer would have a voltmeter) and how to repair it if necessary.

I think rather than it being a technological issue it's more of an example of how the manufacturers will do whatever they can to try and generate more income for their mechanics and dealerships, and also how a distreputable dealer will use any excuse to avoid honoring a warranty. On the one hand they go out of their way to make it hard for anyone but the dealer to work on it, and then the dealers are assholes. That's why finding a clued mechanic is always a good idea.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Otto]

There is a good explination of the "Aftermarket Radio Problem" here...

I think rather than it being a technological issue...

While you have a point about dealers and manufacturers being weasels, it's still a pretty big design glitch. Most auto manufacturers, when they change the wiring schema in any way, generally use an entirely different type of connector or harness to avoid that sort of problem. I can't think of a case in which the radio changed significantly between model years and the wiring connector didn't change dramatically. Not in domestics, anyway.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[cwerdna]

Yeah, from a practical side, if all you want is NMEA output for random mapping software, a minimal handheld GPS receiver will do (usually about $100, haven't seen them for $50).

But yeah, this is kind of a neat hack to repurpose some hardware that's floating around in so many cars.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[Trailer Trash]

You can't really cause physical defects to a car via the computer.

Maybe not the ones you mentioned, but you can definitely ruin a car by screwing with the computer. "mod chips" have been available for years for many cars which boost performance, often at the expense of longevity.

Re:Not quite as spectacular as advertised

[n7ytd]

Especially if you plan on reselling that car some day.

Consider the cost

[dacarr]

People will pay about US$30-35 to have this and get directions based on numerous things, or they can hack it and find a way to collect the data locally. Most people who hack this aren't going to be the type to need somebody's help for $30/mo though, and many people who can't hack this but can read maps might just have it done.

So in the end, you'll be left with people who have an Onstar box and will rather pay the $30/mo as well as their cellphone bills, blissfully unaware that they can make 911 calls for free on disconnected cellphones.

Re:Consider the cost

[gibbonboy]

And uninitialized cellphones calling 911 provide a false sense of security, since most people cannot even remember the last exit they passed, or identify a road name or major landmark. Even some prepaid cellphones now include GPS chips to help identify the location of the caller in an emergency. Tin-foil-hat paranoia aside, that is a good thing.

Re:Consider the cost

[wwwillem]

Posted by "dacarr": I ignore AC's. Use your real name.

Mmmmm, ever heard about a guy or girl with the name "Dacarr"? :-)

Re:Consider the cost

[dacarr]

...says "wwwillem". =^_^=

Re:Consider the cost

[athakur999]

A cell phone can't automatically call emergency services in the event of an accident where you're unable to make the call yourself. For some people, it's worth the $30 for the peace of mind.

Re:Consider the cost

[wwwillem]

Ahhh, but I didn't say that posters should use "real names" :-).

Re:Consider the cost

[dacarr]

Don't confuse me with the facts! =^^=

DMCA in 5..4..3...

[CarrionBird]

How long will it take for GM to claim that the Onstar devices are licensed, not sold? Either way, a big part of onstar is the live operator service for emergencies, how do you replace that?

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[Anonymous Coward]

by a cell phone of course

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[Anonymous Coward]

Either way, a big part of onstar is the live operator service for emergencies, how do you replace that?

Outsource the call center to India.

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[I Like Swords!!!]

Use some kind of artificial intelligence! Something like HAL or Elisa...

Wait... Can you imagine the conversation?

You: I need help.
Elisa: Why do you want help?
You: I had an accident.
Elisa: Can you elaborate on that?
You: My car crashed.
Elisa: Why do you say your car crashed?
You: Because, some asshole ran me off the road!
Elisa: Do any other reasons not come to mind?
You: No dammit!
Elisa: You are being a bit negative.
You: Negative? I NEED SOME HELP!
Elisa: Why do you want some help?
You: I TOLD YOU ALREADY!
Elisa: Do you wish to told me?
You: DAMN YOU! JUST GET ME SOME HELP!
Elisa: Oh, i just get you some help.
You: YES! YOU DO THAT!
Elisa: You are sure?
You: YES YOU MORON!
Elisa: You are sure?
You: FOR THE LAST TIME, YES!
Elisa: You are sure?
You: JUST GET ME SOME HELP NOW!!!
Elisa: Can you elaborate on that?
You: *die from your blood curdling*


Ok.... maybe that's not such a good idea after all.

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[SEE]

Why should GM care?

I mean, this amounts to, "If you have a passenger and a laptop in your car, you can replace a tiny subset of the OnStar service by either buying a GPS reciever, or spending time and effort to render your OnStar device otherwise uselss and voiding your waranty."

I'm sure GM is terrified.

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[NightSpots]

Unless you're unconscious, or dying, or dead.

OnStar is notified automatically if airbags deploy. If you have a head-on, and you're sticking through the windshield, you may not be ABLE to use your cell phone.

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[MegaHamsterX]

Um, a cellphone works well, even one of those old analog ones will get you to an operator.

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[WeirdKid]

Insightful? This has been discussed many times before. The OnStar device is part of the vehicle -- which you most definitely own. Mucking around with the OnStar hardware will nullify any obligation OnStar has to provide service to you. If you don't purchase the service, then it's no loss to you or OnStar.

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[mabhatter654]

Actualy many new cars are leased nowdays, so "modding" your OnStar is almost certianly against the terms of any lease you signed...unless it can be quickly undone. If you own it outright...i.e. no outside financing at all, they you're probably scott free because car electronics have long been treated "sanely!"

Re:DMCA in 5..4..3...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why should GM care? [if you disconnect the OnStar GPS device]

GM doesn't care. It's the Department of Homeland Security that cares.

Being paranoid doesn't mean that one has no real enemies.

I *like* OnStar

[valkraider]

I don't want OnStar for directions to restaurants or gas stations.

I like On-Star for being able to have police/rescue know exactly where I am if/when my Airbag deploys. I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer, and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed. I like OnStar for being able to unlock my car when I lock my keys in the car (with an infant in the carseat). I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

That's worth the OnStar subscription... The other stuff is just gravy, which we never really used - so we cancelled....

Re:I *like* OnStar

[jpmkm]

Exactly what the commercials tell you and nothing else. They like your kind.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

I can't believe people fall for this crap. Do you really think thieves are that stupid to not disable the system? In my car, the GPS/OnStar box is in the trunk, attached to one of the sides with a bunch of wires coming out of it. Doesn't take a rocket scientist to rip them out completely.

If you're paying for OnStar then you're on of the following
1) Rich and don't really care about throwing away $400/year on something you'll use once/year.
2) Need it for work
3) Stupid

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Dr Tall]

You don't mind the fact that for them to be spying on you when you have your accident, they have to be spying on you at all other times as well?

Re:I *like* OnStar

[override11]

you could condense that into 1 sentence and just say "I like On-Star when I am dumb".

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

>>> ...I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

There's a good point. Car thieves will now be able to download instructions on disabling OnStar thus improving their chances of escape. Or maybe those same thieves discovered themselves how to hack OnStar and in a wild fit of Christmas-inspired good will decided share the info with the world.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

you're a fucking retard.
I'm sure pulling out all the wires would make it run just fine.

Shut up, you're fat.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[TopShelf]

Since people specifically look for OnStar as a feature when they're buying a car, I'd hardly call that "spying." The sad thing about most people who post knee-jerk screeds about spying fears is that they don't realize something very important...

Nobody really gives a shit what they're doing.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[KrispyKringle]

To be fair (I do agree that OnStar is way overpriced and limited in use), he's got a point about some of the features. I've never locked my keys in my car, but the rest aren't really his fault.

Cars get stolen, and OnStar seems like a nice replacement for LoJack. Cars break down, and it's nice to be able to diagnose the problem (though certainly it'd be better to just have the screen in the car display the output itself, so I can call a tow truck myself on my cell phone). And especially the accident alert thing seems useful; if I get in an accident on some country road (and I admit, I have been involved in accidents; it's less a case of stupidity then hitting black ice or driving in dangerous conditions) it'd be really, really nice to have help on the way, even if I am incapacitated. Think about it a bit first, will you, before you reply?

Re:I *like* OnStar

[zakezuke]

I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer, and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed

Diffrent people have diffrent skill levels when it comes to automobiles. I for example have a 1998 sentra, so nothing like onstar, but I do have a CHECK ENGINE light as well. Diffrence is, I know where my access port is, and it blinks the engine code. I'd suspect that's all ONSTAR does for ya, rather then running remote diagnostics, they run local diagnostics and read to you what your engine is telling you.

I like OnStar for being able to unlock my car when I lock my keys in the car

Ok, that is a cool feature. That is actually more spiffy then calling a locksmith. From what I read, the mod is only for reading GPS info to a 3rd party device. I don't know if that would affect the other onstar fuctions. I don't feel that ONSTAR is offering you anything special there... as in you could easily invest in a old pager and attach the vibrate motor to a relay which would open the doors upon calling it's number. I'm sure you could get into the more advanced logic, requiring a specific code.

I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

Righto... that too is a cool feature! In theory this can be done with any old cell phone wired into your automobile, in theory that is. Getting the police to track down your stolen cellphone is a difficult enough task in it self. I've not actually been able to do this, dispite the fact that they have access to the technology... and the authorization from the owner. When i've talked to cops about it, they've said "we can't do it" or "we don't know how". If the phone were to call 911 if stolen... and relay an automated message "help me, i'm a car, this isn't my driver", this might work.

I should actually research the issue and see the difficulty level in the following

#1: Added cost of an additional mobile phone
#2: Small system who's job it is reading GPS info, sending that info via an easily readable text message or other remote computer readable format.
#3: Relay that info to a site where a human can make the valued judgement of transmiting that info to police or whowever.

That's worth the OnStar subscription...

Hey.... that's cool and fine. ONSTAR(tm) offers a valuable marketable service that is perfectly spiffy. I would never knock anyone who wanted that form of service. I will agree with the hackers that it's cool to beable to mod your ONSTAR(tm) box to read the GPS info to a 3rd party device.

What would be cooler IMHO would be a slightly more subscription free solution, where by you give your car a phone, and have the logic to beable to be flaged as being "stolen" and relay it's location to someone.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course you like OnStar. Let's face it, OnStar has been developed for people who have a hard time thinking for themselves. No, I'm not insulting you. In fact, I think you are the kind of customer OnStar marketeers have been dreaming about. After all, the number of gullible people is rather limited. Good for you!

Re:I *like* OnStar

[bear_phillips]

Do you really think thieves are that stupid to not disable the system?

Yes. They are that stupid.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

Unfortunatelly for you, I'm neither fat nor a retard. But please continue to support your OnStar overlords with at least $400/year for giving you a truly believable sense of false security.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[MAPA3M]

I like On-Star for being able to have police/rescue know exactly where I am if/when my Airbag deploys.

GPS:
Please make a left turn.
...
Why did you not make a left turn?
...
Please make a left turn here or I will deploy the airbag repeatedly until a left turn is made

Re:I *like* OnStar

[valkraider]

They don't have to be spying on you at all times. When the airbag deploys for any reason, the cellular system (if still working of course) calls out. There is no real time monitoring (by OnStar. The CIA has their own plans... ;) )

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry to disappoint you but the whole story looks like a commercial. The car was probably not truly stolen. Someone was probably just joy-riding.

And this just cracks me up:
Hess' OnStar does a lot more than track the car, Shapiro said. Using satellites, OnStar can unlock the doors and activate the car's horn.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[alienw]

You sure about that? Court to FBI: No spying on in-car computers. So they are trying to use those capabilities.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

I have OnStar in my vehicle, and while I've never had to use the remote diagnostics feature, it gripes my ass to think that instead of telling me what the problem is when my check engine light comes on, I have to call OnStar and let them tell me. I'd rather my in car display tell me what's wrong.

Seems like just another excuse to push the OnStar service to me.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[elmegil]

I'm sorry GPS, but I can't do that.br.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Ryan Amos]

...or you can just pay the $30 a month and be done with it. Which is what you're gonna have to do if you wire a cell phone and pager up to the thing anyway. Yes, disconnected cell phones can make 911 calls, but hacking the car to tell the phone it's been stolen/in a wreck/etc. will almost certainly void the warranty on any electrical components and probably need to interfere with the diagnostic computers (which, on new American cars have very much closed and proprietary interfaces. Japanese cars tend to be more user-friendly.) No need to reinvent the wheel if it costs as much and isn't as good.

In the end, if you can afford a new car with OnStar, you can probably afford $400 a year for the service. If you have a good job, $400 a year really isn't THAT much if you use the service. Like anything, it all comes down to if you feel the $30/mo is worth the service they provide. If not, don't pay it.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[cHiphead]

I'm more likely to get OnStar now just to let a friend borrow the car and call OnStar and have them lock the doors and turn on teh alarm remotely.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[bconway]

Insurance companies give a shit what they're doing. They'll fight tooth and nail to not have to pay out anything, if they can. This, similar to the data recorders in most of today's ECUs, is very helpful to them.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure there tubby, grab another coke and recompile your kernel.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Smidge204]

I believe it.

Let's face it, most theives (like the kind that steal cars and rob candy stores) are not exactly the sharpest hammer in the drawer. I bet they wouldn't be able to tell if a car had OnStar without either previous experience ("Last time I stole one of those I got nailed") or a good looking-over (Which would kinda draw attention to themselves) - so you can bet they won't know where to start trying to disable it.

Of course, it won't stop the "professional" car theives who know what the hell they're doing in the first place, but that's not the issue for most customers.
=Smidge=

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

If we give up our freedoms a little at a time, eventually we'll have NO freedom!!!

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer, and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed.

You could preform those operations yourself if the car manufactorers weren't trying to lock out everyone but those paying hefty fees to them from diagnosing your engine management system. You can preform these diagnostics if you're willing to shell out for some semi-expensive hardware from people who have reverse engineered their interface. (It's getting cheaper all the time)

I like OnStar for being able to unlock my car when I lock my keys in the car (with an infant in the carseat).

Breaking the window would get that infant out faster, and AAA can preform the same service for a lot less when time is not such an issue.

I like On-Star for being able to have police/rescue know exactly where I am if/when my Airbag deploys. I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

Yep, and so they can track your vehicle whatever other times they choose. Any competent theif would immediatly disable OnStar, it shouldn't be hard nor take long since it's standardized. A custom installed theft tracking system would be less expensive. Don't forget theft recovery systems, like those that deactivate the engine when it reaches idle after having received a command to do so via a pager signal.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Tim C]

Well, if that'sall you're worried about, then what's the problem? As long as you're driving within the law the insurance company can't have any cause for complaint.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, that is a cool feature. That is actually more spiffy then calling a locksmith. From what I read, the mod is only for reading GPS info to a 3rd party device. I don't know if that would affect the other onstar fuctions. I don't feel that ONSTAR is offering you anything special there... as in you could easily invest in a old pager and attach the vibrate motor to a relay which would open the doors upon calling it's number. I'm sure you could get into the more advanced logic, requiring a specific code.

Some alarm systems already do exactly that (though they require that you page with a security code and command giving you security approx equivalent to login over telnet)

Re:I *like* OnStar

[macdaddy]

I read your comment and I wanted to point out that LoJack's only work in certain areas. I read the list once. It covered cities like Dallas and Chicago and other really large cities. It didn't cover ANY of Kansas or most other states. If OnStar really covers those states then this would be an awesome replacement for the LoJack. It's worth pointing out that any half-assed organized punk will disable a LoJack or OnStar box shortly after jacking the ride. I would like to see OnStar sell me a small box I can discretely hide somewhere on my car that is only used for tracking my car when I ask them to. That would be sweet. Then I could pick where I want to hide it rather than GM installing it at the factory. Nice.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[ZPO]

You can do most or all of this with APRS (Automatic Position Reporting System) via ham radio. I had it in my CUCV M-1009 (A military Chevy Blazer with a diesel engine and tough enough to go anywhere) while I was living in Colorado. During my daily commute the other hams could see where I was and my wife could too. During snow storms if I stopped in one place for more than 5 minutes someone would call me on the repeater we used to make sure I was OK.

There have been at least two cases where embedded APRS units were used to recover stolen cars. In California a man was able to give police (once he convinced them he wasn't crazy) the exact track and location of his car. It was recovered with minimal damage while the suspects were still driving it. In Canada the signal was lost as the vehicle drove into a large industrial warehouse. The RCMP went to the location and found a large chop shop with 100+ vehicle in various stages of disassembly.

It was great fun and I'll be installing it in my Bronco and the wife's Mustang over the holidays.

The TNC (terminal node controller), a Kantronics KPC-3+, I usually use has externally controllable outputs (password protected) that you could use to unlock your doors and/or shut off the fuel pump. I don't plan to tie into the fuel pump, but door unlocking would be very nice. Its a simple password system, but you just change it after you use it each time. How often do you lock your keys in the car?

With some creative hacking of Asterisk you could probably get the system to at least read you back the closest cross street of your vehicle's current position. The Bronco will be getting a Toughbook CF-27 to do such things.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

You'll like it really well one day when you start recieving speeding tickets in the mail, which is end the end what all this mapping / tracking stuff is boiling down too.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[zakezuke]

...or you can just pay the $30 a month and be done with it. Which is what you're gonna have to do if you wire a cell phone and pager up to the thing anyway

Well, onstar at $30 a month is spiffy. Such a system that would use a 3rd party cell phone might cost $20 a month minium (american centric) unless

#1: If you pigtail a 2nd phone on your service
#2: Pay as you go plan
#3: disconnected mobile phone, connect to service if and when your car is stolen
#4: 2way pagers are cheeper still
#5: disconnected mobiles can call 911, (airbag, phone 911, automated message)

Yes, disconnected cell phones can make 911 calls, but hacking the car to tell the phone it's been stolen/in a wreck/etc.

Dear car... You have been stolen. Please tell me your location so I may find you. I would call this C54WAR protocal {car 54 where are you}

No better nor worse then ONSTAR.

will almost certainly void the warranty on any electrical components and probably need to interfere with the diagnostic computers

Hooking up a relay to your door locks... I'd agree this is possible to void the warrenty. But hooking up a mobile phone to your car... I doubt it. 3rd party stereos typicaly don't void the warrenty, even truck mount CD players.

In the end, if you can afford a new car with OnStar, you can probably afford $400 a year for the service

It's not a question of whether you can afford it or not. The world is filled with many goods and services costing about $20-$30 bucks. If you can afford a new car, i'm sure this can fit into your budget, it's more of a question whether or not you want to pay a recouring monthly fee, or invest it in something that has no recouring cost. $400 a year over a period of 5 years = $2000.

So... you can either go onstar, or save your pennies and have a nice down payment on a replacement car... a downpayment that represents 5%-10% of it's value. It's not a question of afford, it should be a valued choice what to do with your funds. I'm not saying ONSTAR is foolish... it's a cool service. But there are good reasons why the cheep bastard might go with something with a lesser cost.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[transient]

I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

This is an incredibly useful feature. My aunt had her car stolen at gunpoint a couple months ago. The police used OnStar to track down the car and bust a ring of serial car thieves that had been working in the Twin Cities for some time.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[the_mad_poster]

...and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed.

Uh... dude.. the check engine light is color-coded. If it's yellow or orange (color is depending on make/model - they're the same meaning), the car is telling you that there's a problem, but it's not a serious one (yet). You can continue driving, but you should go to a service center asap to be on the safe side. In fact, if there's no other signs of a problem like loss of power, rough idle, etc... you don't even really need to hurry to the service center. If I get a check engine that's orange, I usually just keep driving it for awhile to see if it goes off on its own. If not, I go get a diagnostic at the local garage for $20.

If it's RED, the car is effectively telling you:

JESUS F'ING CHRIST I'M DYING HERE STOP THE GODDAMN CAR PULL OFF THE ROAD IMMEDIATELY HOLY SHIT SOMETHING IS INCREDIBLY SERIOUSLY FUCKING WRONG!

The only other level is if it turns red and starts BLINKING. Then you're seriously fucked because that usually means a pretty serious misfire and you're on the verge of blowing your cats, manifold or something else to pieces.

Honest to god... if you don't know how your check engine light works, you need to spend a little more time with TFM. I hardly expect people to know the details of it, but you really ought to at least know how the guages and lights on your dashboard work.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[jafac]

TFM says:
When the check-engine light goes on, go drop off your car at the dealer and pay $200 so they can plug their proprietary computer in and proceed to charge you $800 to put in new spark plugs.

Not very helpful or informative. The Check-Engine light was a MAJOR step backwards, as far as making an automobile a useful and reliable device to own.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[jridley]

I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer, and can tell me how serious the problem is and can call me a tow truck if needed.

Uh huh. So, the computer in EVERY car has a ton of diagnostic info in it, but the manufacturers have done work to keep you from getting that information out of the computer that you bought. Then you pay them a subscription fee to let them read the info out of the computer that you bought and speak it to you. Great.

It would cost the companies approximately ZERO DOLLARS AND ZERO CENTS to put in a mode to flash out trouble codes on a dash light. The trouble codes are all 4 digit codes. My 89 ford could do this; drop a paper clip across two wires under the hood, power up, the check engine light flashes the error codes. But nobody does this anymore.

They don't want you diagnosing the trouble, they want you to go to the dealer, or at least, to a mechanic that they hope bought a scanner that included some kickback to the manufacturer.

Admittedly, modern cars have a TON of info stored in their computers, and it wouldn't make sense to try to blink all that out on a light, but the major trouble codes could easily be done.

You can just go to the auto parts store and borrow their scanner; the local stores have loaner units. But it's irritating that they don't just give you the codes in the first place.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[WeirdKid]

Wrong. Completely wrong. The airbag notification is an outbound (from the vehicle) call. OnStar does not track your vehicle unless you ask -- and that's only if your car is stolen. Keeping a live connection with the car is incredibly expensive. I mean, think about it, it's a cellular call on a private network. Then, if you really knew anything at all about how OnStar works you'd know that the maximum data transfer rates and storage capacities make even periodic upload of historical positions virtually impossible and prohibitively expensive. That's about all I can say, so just get over your paranoid selves already!

Re:I *like* OnStar

[WeirdKid]

That's not what the article says. This article describes the FBI's desire to monitor the phone conversations, which they could probably do with any other mobile communication device (the cellphone you have pinned between your ear and shoulder while driving).

Re:I *like* OnStar

[the_mad_poster]

What are you talking about? You're complaining (and rightly so) about the OBD-II system, not the check engine light. The check engine light on OBD-I systems was great. You simply had to plug ten cent wires into the appropriate port under your steering column to get blinking check engine codes from a car with OBD-I. The only trick was buying a $14 book that had the trouble codes for your model.

The OBD-II system has nothing to do with the check engine light and everything to do with the computer. In fact, the whole thing is proprietary now right down to the Windows OS on the testing device.

And for those who don't know - OBD-II is a partially government influenced "improvement" to the trouble code system in cars. If you go to pep boys, for example, and pay them $70 for an "engine diagnostic", they stick a plug in the port under or beside your steering column and it tells them some codes. The cross-reference the codes to a list they have and know what's wrong. The entire process takes about 15 minutes (yes, Pep Boys is, in my experience, nothing but a con job). In OBD-I systems, you could get engine trouble codes (the check engine light comes on when the computer sets a "trouble code" when one of the sensors says something is Not Right) by plugging standard wires into the port. The engine light would blink a certain number of times like morse code, and you could cross-reference that to a little booklet such as a Haynes manual. This system worked just fine. OBD-II was introduced for the sole purpose of making it nearly impossible to work on your own car (the testers cost several thousand dollars and you need a new one every couple of years) and to try and push out little local shops so everyone had to go to overpriced dealerships.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[operagost]

What are you talking about? Maybe you have a car that does this, but I've never seen one like that before. On every GM, Ford, and Honda I've seen, you have a light that turns on when an error condition is detected. That's it- no colors, no flashing. It only flashes if you put it into diagnostic mode (which isn't always possible without special equipment or software).

You sound as if you know some things, but you should probably tone down on the arrogance until you learn a little more about vehicles other than your own.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[nolife]

"check engine" light comes on.
The causes for a CEL and codes are directly related to the emmision control systems. Yes, those monitored systems may cause problems for drivability but that system monitors a very small % of what could go wrong with a car that you do not have a special light for. A "Service Engine Soon" light (SEL) on some GM vehicles is different. It accounts for more parameters but still not something that an operator is going to fix over the phone

ONSTAR:
"Yes sir, your SEL is on and returns a code of P1481 which is in reference to the cooling fan actual speed being different than the desired speed requested by the PCM. This could be the result of the hall effect sensor misreading the speed or a fan clutch assembly problem."

I guess that is better then not knowing what is wrong but I doubt that information will actually help someone. Damn, back in the day, we just glanced at the temperature gauge every so often..

OnStar for being able to unlock my car when I lock my keys in the car

Electrical tape, a spare key, and a good spot under the car. Use your imagination. I'll take my chances that someone will not stumble upon it while "browsing" under my car. Not as slick as as calling someone on your cell phone and getting them to unlock it for you but probably takes less time and it's free.

Don't get me wrong, Onstar does offer useful features but IMHO, the recurring price is extreme considering what you can already do yourself for free a little preperation ahead of time.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[treat]

I like On-Star for being able to have police/rescue know exactly where I am if/when my Airbag deploys.

Until you're driving drunk and kill someone and had a chance to escape the scene except for the fact that your car called the cops.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

You own a sharp hammer? Wouldn't that be called an axe?

Re:I *like* OnStar

[jasonbw]

The first (and last) time my dad took his car in for a simple check engine light warning, they replaced the computer that turns on the check engine light, because it was giving too many false positives. It was about 10 years ago, and the part ran about $250. needless to say, he had them put the old part back in.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[alecto]

This is assuming the recorder is infallible, and the accident reconstructionist interpreting the data from it is scrupulously honest (even though being paid by the insurance company) and technically competent.

The accident reconstruction industry is a very secretive bunch, and they are no doubt salivating at the possibility of creating new "value added" services using the proprietary interfaces into OBD, air bag, and other data logging systems on newer vehicles.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[1ione1]

An unlikely, but very cool way for OnStar to catch a hit-and-run felon. You might not like it (though you might someday appreciate having been stopped before you kill again), but millions of others would cheer anything that helped land your sorry DUI a** in jail!

Re:I *like* OnStar

[KrispyKringle]

Good point. Of course, with all the stories about E911 enabled cell phones, tracking isn't restricted to your car anymore (I'm about to get a new cell phone, and it's going to have GPS onboard, and there's not really a lot I can do about it).

But of course you could get a prepaid phone for a few bucks and hook it up to your car's electrical system and hide it somewhere. Bit of a DIY job, but someone could sell kits. Then you sign it up for a tracking service and you got it when you need it.

Then again, the cost is pretty high (though certainly competitive with OnStar) for such low overhead. I wonder how cheaply you could make dedicated devices for this.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[drinkypoo]

The existence of the check engine light does not mean anything negative. There are cars out there - mostly sports cars - which have the majority of the informative gauges in addition to the idiot light. The check engine light is primarily there for emissions control purposes, though; If anything on your car is out of spec, it turns on the light, and the smog guys (In California and a few other states) just fail you.

The check engine light lets you know when there is an error. Some cars can be convinced to provide you debugging information without a checker box. Removing two bolts and turning around my ECU (located behind the passenger side kick panel) allows me to get at the idle adjustment screw, which is actually a potentiometer also used to set the ECU one of five modes. Setting it to the proper mode makes it flash red and green LEDs on the unit for the tens and ones, and I can look the resulting code up in my Factory Service Manual (which ran me $65 and tells you basically everything you need to know to maintain your car) and figure out which sensor is having problems. Then I can test the sensor using the steps listed in the FSM and determine if it is the engine or the sensor itself which is out of specification.

Everything else that the ECU tracks is stuff you couldn't find out before the days of electronic engine management and/or fuel injection anyway so not being able to get out the extended OBD-II parameters is not a step backwards, it's just not a step forwards. I seem to recall that automakers are now required to publish their codes and can only charge a nominal fee for them, I assume they still charge too much but they are available. However, the vast majority of people don't need this information because they wouldn't know what to do with it if they had it.

Also, before complete engine management became the norm, and the check engine light was not a feature required on all automobiles, they were already replacing gauges with idiot lights, most commonly engine temperature, oil pressure, and charging system voltage. Furthermore, those idiot lights have generally persisted, even though the "check engine" light is standard. So I would say that we have lost nothing but our control over the smog process with the existence of the check engine light. Here in California, it must turn on briefly at startup (this is for testing o the lamp) and then stay off during the emissions test. If it does not, even if you pass by the numbers, you fail the smog check. So in that sense it's a step backwards for those of us with damaged or out-of-spec cars, but it's not hurting anyone.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[spacecowboy420]

After all, the number of gullible people is rather limited.

All you need is an idiot with disposable income, plenty of those around.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[LiquidCoooled]

Couldnt you just hardwire a cellphone direct into the battery hidden somewhere in the car?

Most tel companies now offer location services, so it would be simple to leave it on for this purpose.

The phones themselves are certainly cheap enough, and wiring it direct will mean its always topped up.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[zakezuke]

Uh... dude.. the check engine light is color-coded. If it's yellow or orange

None too helpful for the color blind

If it's RED

It's possible I wouldn't notice, unless I spent some time ahead of time and established what their yellow, orange, or red is, assuming there was enough contrast between the three levels. I remember that the Amiga had dual color LEDs if i'm remembering correctly. I remember this not because I actually could see the contrast between the two colors, but because I noticed the three wires, and had someone else tell me they were diffrent colors.

red and starts BLINKING

Now that's what i'm talking about. Personaly I would prefer it if they followed the same sorta convention for street signs. Green triangle, yellow diamond, red octagon. In my case, I can't see the contrast. As it is an idiot light, and everyone else is an idiot, most people understand red octagon. (Actually I can't remember if the stopsign is an octagon, i'll count the sides the next time I stop).

Honest to god... if you don't know how your check engine light works, you need to spend a little more time with TFM

Thanks for pointing this out. I was unaware of the color contrasting check engine light. I'll have to read up on that tonight... and see if I can possibly modify it to a more me friendly system if there isn't enough contrast. It's not so much that I never read my car manual, I only read the segments regarding the hidden blinking light rather then anything regarding the check engine light. In otherwords, I assumed they were just idiot lights and didn't tell you anything useful.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[thynk]

OBD-II codes can be pulled from a palm OS device with an adapter that costs around $100 (less if you shop on Ebay). Or, you can go down to your local AutoZone (IIRC, might be another parts shop) and ask them to pull the codes for you. No charge.

Did a bit of research on this when my own check engine light came on. Course, a week later it turned off and things have been running fine since then, so I've not made a priority to have the codes pulled.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[marvinglenn]

I like OnStar for being able to track, and stop my car if it is stolen.

Since the system is installed in a uniform and consistant manner, it won't be long until car criminals know how to quickly disable it. For a theft system to be robust, there needs to be many variations in how and where it's installed. Otherwise, snip-snip, the usual wires are cut, or the antenna is covered.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[shepd]

I was wondering, have you had any experience with third party OBD-II interface ICs, such as the one sold by these guys?

Seems there's some free software for them, too.

Just wondering, since I was thinking about giving it a shot. Might be fun to see just what I can find out about my car. :-)

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Professor Bluebird]

Yup. The "check engine" is now primarily for emmisions checking. For example, on my mom's new car, it comes on whenever the gas cap is removed, even during normal fueling.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[valkraider]

Actually the article he linked to talked about the FBI using OnStar to listen to conversations inside the car - VIA the cellular phone system.

Not phone calls made using the system.

But ALSO the article says that the act of doing so BREAKS the emergency functionality of the system - because the system is normally NOT connected all the time. The OnStar system needs the line open to CALL OUT in the event of an emergency, and the FBI using that line perpetually would break that ability to call out...

So to make a long story short, YES - I Am sure that the car and OnStar does not "listen" to where I am and what I am doing at all times. And if they *did* they would hear a lot of "Rolly Polly Ollie" and "Dora The Explorer" and "Stanly" from my kids DVDs. Maybe that will help them catch terrorists...

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Dun Malg]

If it's yellow or orange (color is depending on make/model - they're the same meaning), the car is telling you that there's a problem, but it's not a serious one (yet).

Mine comes on to tell me my oxygen sensor hiccupped, but then stays on till I get it checked. Stupid Isuzu junk...

The only other level is if it turns red and starts BLINKING. Then you're seriously fucked because that usually means a pretty serious misfire and you're on the verge of blowing your cats, manifold or something else to pieces.

Heh. That's like the TEMP idiot light on my '82 Oldsmobile. It should have been labelled "thar she blows!" instead. It would generally come on when the engine was already overheated.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[MichaelJ]

I should actually research the issue and see the difficulty level in the following

You could hack that all together on your own, but whatever you come up with will not get you the 20%-30% discount on your comprehensive auto insurance that the real On*Star gets you as a recognized auto tracking and retrieval service. That alone breaks even with the cost of the basic subscription for me.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why you turn your car off before fueling.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yeah, the blue onstar button is disguised quite effectively from the criminal mind.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Nightpaw]

You just argue for the hell of it, eh?

Re:I *like* OnStar

[RobYoung]

When I was shopping around for an older Cadillac STS (never got one) I recall reading that if the check engine light came on, you could push a certain combination of buttons on the dash and the trouble code and description would then display on a text readout on the dash.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[the_mad_poster]

Mmm... depending on what you have you might want to check out getting a full-on sport/speed chip from DiabloSport or Hypertech for that. They generally have software that can be purchased that lets you go whole hog on everything from ratios in the transmission (for autos) to fuel/air to spark plug timings.

You also ought to go get a Haynes manual. They're about fifteen bucks and give you pretty much every detail you could possibly ever want. They tear the car down and rebuild it and then right the book based on that. Pretty neat stuff if you've got the tools.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[the_mad_poster]

The TEMP light won't come on until you're (almost) in trouble. That's why I'll never buy another car that doesn't have AT LEAST oil pressure and temperature guages in addition to RPM (my g-ma has a Corsica with no RPM guage and it drives me nuts). Unfortunately, that generally relegates me to sports cars/coupes which sort of limits my options since I've not got much cash.

You can run a car that's overheating for a few minutes before it really starts to hurt too much as long as you're not moving. If you're moving, you can't run it much at all. My old Probe overheated on a couple of occasions. It finally bit the big one when I couldn't get out of traffic on a hot summer day. It kept slowly climbing, and by the time I got to a place I could pull off, it was redline on the temperature and about to shut down. It damaged the head unit and one of the valves burned up leaving no compression in one cylinder which worked the other three pretty hard. I sold it to a guy that bought a hundred dollar head unit and it ran a while longer, but eventually that blew too and the block finally cracked when it overheated after losing the thermostat.

If you don't mind hassling with the computer reset (generally, let it run a minute or two, put it in gear and take it easy a little, then move out to the highway and cruise briefly and it should get everything set back up properly), you can clear an engine code yourself by simply disconnecting the battery for a few minutes. It's sort of like the mobo - if your mobo gets confused, you can pull the battery, ditto on the car. Of course, if your O2 sensor is regularly "hiccuping" maybe it needs cleaned, or even replaced? Actually, if it's an older car, go get a Haynes manual for it and you can probably figure out yourself. Cars from about '95 back generally seem to be the kind you can still work on at least somewhat. Of course, the only Isuzu I've ever seen gutted was an Impulse and that thing was a horrible pain the arse to work on. Turbo and all, electronic gizmos out the wazoo, engine crammed into the apartment. Fast as hell when it started running again.. but a serious pain in the butt.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Trashman]

I for example have a 1998 sentra, so nothing like onstar, but I do have a CHECK ENGINE light as well. Diffrence is, I know where my access port is, and it blinks the engine code.

(OT) Assuming you can find the acess port , how do you detimine what the code is/means? The owner's manual for my car, (a 98 Mazda 626) doesn't tell you squat except that "you should take it to a service center as soon as possble." I'm interested in learning about diagnostics to know what's wrong with my car.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[the_mad_poster]

I was actually notified by another poster that, perhaps, not all GM/Dodge/Fords follow this convention anymore. I've owned / seen this in three Fords from 94 up - a 94 Thunderbird LX V8, a 98 Taurus V6, and my 01 Mustang GT. I also had a 96 Grand Am that did that and my gf's mother has a 96 Trans Am that I saw both orange and red in (red because we blew gasoline mist down the air intake to see if the exhaust was blocked... it did not like that at all).

As for the blinking red - I've only ever seen that in Honda, so it may not carry elsewhere. As always, YMMV.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[drinkypoo]

Most systems depend on a certain amount of pressure in the fuel tank these days, and are not intended to be run without the gas cap in place. In addition, running the car while pumping fuel can result in serious backsplash because it's trying to pressurize the system. In other words, do as the signs at the gas station say, and shut off your engine before fueling.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[bhtooefr]

What about being in a wreck? I don't think that'll work very well, the C54WAY protocol. You wouldn't be calling it, you'd be calling from it. And, as some people have already said, if your head goes through the window, you're probably not in a state to be calling 911.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[macdaddy]

That's a good idea. I wonder how well that would you. You know, any electrical engineer with a good understanding of radio could easily build a device to jam cellular communication. This could be put into a device as small as a TI-96 or smaller and could provide enough interference to jam signals within the car itself. I wonder if this is a trick of the trade for professional car thiefs. Hmmm... I can think of two enginerds with just such skills now. After I finish my EE I hope to have such 'skills' too. :-)

Re:I *like* OnStar

[macdaddy]

That's true. I wonder though if there is any trouble getting a locate for your phone when it's in another provider's coverage area. For example Sprint PCS only covers a small area in Kansas, mainly Wichita, Topeka, and KC although they are adding towers up and down the turnpike. Alltel doesn't technically cover Wichita or Topeka due to Cingular's monopoly. I wonder if things like that prevent such locates. It's a damned good idea though.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[raverbuzzy]

I bet they wouldn't be able to tell if a car had OnStar without either previous experience

So the big blue onstar button on the dash wouldn't give it away. ;)

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Smidge204]

Correct. There's no such thing as a sharp hammer persay.

Now substitute "hammer" with "person" and "drawer" with "world", mix in a healthy dose of sarcasm, and consider the above statement again. :P
=Smidge=

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Smidge204]

It seems obvious to anyone who has half a brain. You know, te kinds of people who have enough sense not to try and steal a car in the first place?

Then again, I know people who are fairly intelligent that simply don't know the kinds of things I take for granted. "Smart" is very relative - but I bet you'ld find more people who could stare right at the button and not even see it than people who could tell you what it's for.
=Smidge=

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

There's no such thing as a sharp hammer persay.

There's no such thing as "persay", per se, but that didn't stop you, did it?

Re:I *like* OnStar

[madcow_ucsb]

If it's a newer car that speaks OBD-II, the port will always be under the dash on the driver side. Some codes are generic, some are specific to a particular car. To figure out what they mean, you'll need to get yourself a service manual for your car (or a generic OBD code book). Check any auto parts store and you'll find the books, as well as the box you plug in to get the codes.

Older cars will typically let you flash a light or something to get the codes, but now you need a special box to do it. I looked into desigining my own, but found virtually no information on the J1850 PWM spec (used by Ford). Tons of info on the VPW modulation though. Oh well....

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Smidge204]

Nope!

=Smidge=

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Cajun Hell]

I like On-Star for when my "check engine" light comes on, I press the button, they run a remote diagnostic on my engine's computer

At $400 per year, it only takes a couple of months before you can afford to go to your local auto parts store, and buy your own OBD II reader gizmo that will interface to your car's engine computer, and display the info for you.

Hmm.. that reminds me of what needs to go into the next "car computer" project. Instead of just playing music, it should also display/log diag codes.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[Anonymous Coward]

Since I live in the UK, we have a simgle provider for wherever we are on the mainland, but I can see similar problems if I were to venture into mainland Europe.

Over here, it is starting to be marketed for monitoring/identifying the location of your children or spouse - and IMO the service providers would look pretty dumb if they lose you once you enter a new area.

On the flip side, it might be this exact reason why it ISNT yet an option.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[LiquidCoooled]

damn anonymous tick :@

Re:I *like* OnStar

[zakezuke]

You just argue for the hell of it, eh?

When we're talking color codes for something important, oh yea it irks me... colors and shapes.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[pinqkandi]

Yea? it's possible to do it differently than OnStar... but I think it gets to the point where the convenience of OnStar is worth it.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[zakezuke]

(OT) I can't remember exactly where I got access to the blink codes for my car. I'm sure the link trail started from www.sentra.net for my car. Basicly any website dealing with your car would either have that info posted, or people who know a link to where it is posted.

http://www.troublecodes.net/mazda/ no. I'm too lazy to look for you but it looks promising. They list the codes, but also say you need a part to read the numbers, where as my nissan has a blinking light.

This is usually what autoshops automaticly charge a nominal fee for, though i'm sure they have more universial connections then a specalized two digit readout.

The owner's manual for my car, (a 98 Mazda 626) doesn't tell you squat except that "you should take it to a service center as soon as possble."

Yea, that was annoying... I haven't had the engine light activate in my vehicel, so i've not actually gone through the steps. I just know where the switch is to cause the light to blink in a code.

I still have to check my manual to see if it uses multi-colored lights for the check engine light.

Re:I *like* OnStar

[strider_starslayer]

yes, and no.

While it might become easy enough for a thief to start learning how to circumvent the onstar's location based system, most would just as soon pass that vehicle by and find another one.

For instance more cars without anti-theft systems are stolen compared to those that have it, most likely not because the thief dosen't know how to circumvent the system, but because that means more time the theif is going to have to spend in public looking for that system and disabling it. Sometimes deterance is all you need.

Also, the onstar people could move the wiring around a bit on each vehicle to make it nonstandard.

Call me silly...

[zakezuke]

I'm not about to dismiss the geek value of this, far from it. Never the less... It seems to me based on what I read all you are doing is modifying the onstar usin so your 3rd party device can get the GPS information, rather then it sent to ONSTAR(tm). Such a mod requires you to have a vehicel with the onstar device, and some basic soldering skill.

Now... assuming you don't actually own a vehicel with the ONSTAR(tm) system onboard... is there something special about it's gps reciever that would make it worthy to find one at a junk yard and purchace one? Rather then buying your own GPS reciever, laptop, and load in the approperate maping software for your enjoyment and pleasure?

Re:Call me silly...

[Nogami_Saeko]

Well, I suppose the hack is handy for those who don't want to purchase a GPS unit, but personally, I'd just buy an RS-232-only GPS receiver (can be around the size of a quarter) and hook it up rather than hacking my system apart and voiding the warantee.

N.

Re:Call me silly...

[Dun Malg]

ONSTAR(tm) system onboard... is there something special about it's gps reciever that would make it worthy to find one at a junk yard and purchace one?

Not really. The Motorola Oncore GPS unit has slightly more informative proprietary software to talk to than your average NMEA serial GPS unit, but it's no better than a decent stand alone Garmin GPS unit.

possible new slashdot trolling technique?

[Savatte]

hacking somone's onstar and sending them to the physical location of the goatse.cx server.

Re:possible new slashdot trolling technique?

[roman_mir]

Even better is applying a /. effect to a city block :) say for blocking police and fire routes? :)

The 1337 kidz call it

[NoData]

0wn3dStar

Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ...

[leoaugust]

When I went in the Site counter was

0000032

Wonder what it will be soon as /.'s go there ...

But more importantly is this a big trend, (only 32 visitors yet?) or are /.'s going to make it a big trend ...

Re:Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ...

[Anonymous Coward]

0001218

Re:Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ...

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

When I went in the Site counter was

0000032


Remember, it's a site dedicated to cars. They just rolled back the counter before selling the page to Slashdot, that's all.

Re:Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ...

[Anonymous Coward]

When I first saw the counter it read: 0000072.

Then I saw your post, (yeah, I did RTFA first, and yes, I am new here) and rechecked the counter again...

It appears that the counter has been remotely disabled by OnSlash.

Re:Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Counter now at 1584

Re:Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ...

[Anonymous Coward]

When I saw it was 2023

Re:Slashdot Effect Counter As we speak ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Actaully, check the counter again... I saw it up in the 1400's, now it's low 800's rolling up again.

Onstar DELETED! Where is THE CHEAT?

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe they can call the new system "Homestar." I'd suggest "Strongbad" but that would probably not be very popular.

Re:Onstar DELETED! Where is THE CHEAT?

[Anonymous Coward]

only score 1 funny? mod parent up! who doesn't read strongbad's emails every week? :)

FBI

[Leroy_Brown242]

First the FBI, now this! You can't buy this sort of publicity!

Re:FBI

[t0ny]

The service that article discussed was NOT OnStar.

Re:FBI

[paganizer]

I was going to point out how full of it you were, when I discovered you were apparently right.
Supposedly it "Tele Aid", primarily used in Mercedes.
Since this probably wasn't around before the .com crash, most /. readers shouldn't be concerned.

Re:FBI

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, you can't sell this sort of publicity.

"Ok, first we'll profile you on 'America's Most Wanted' followed by and in-depth interview on 60 Minutes involving your unique accounting practices. After that, I want you to drive really quickly, swerving back and forth and ignoring traffic signals so we can get the lead story on 'America's Most Dangerous Car Chases' and perhaps a brief mention from Mother's Against Drunk Driving. Make sure it's a Pinto with Firestone tires, because we also have a chance to be the cover story on Consumer Reports."

Re:FBI

[t0ny]

LOL, I only remembered that fact because I was going to make a clever joke saying "OnSpy". Apparently I was beaten to the punch by thirty other people, so I was forced to say something interesting and/or informative. Oh well.

Easy Choice?

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Let's see... Void the warranty on not just my OnStar but also possibly my new Tahoe, or... Spend $150 bucks and by a GPS... Hard decision, I admit!

What next

[Anonymous Coward]

Case mods for cars?

DMCA anyone?

[Rosco P. Coltrane]

The price for this service is around $400 each year. Those who tap into their OnStar systems pay no such fees./I.

$400 per year for onStar suddenly seems very cheap : that's the price of a hour with the lawyer who will defend you against GM during your brutal encounter with the DMCA ...

Re:DMCA anyone?

[Anonymous Coward]

Hacking in to the hardware can not be protected by DMCA, because there are no copyrightable obstacles in the way.

"Rom hack" chips are DMCA prosecutable because they involve circumventing copyright obstacles. GPS data is not copyrightable, therefore hacking the hardware to interface with other hardware can not be illegal. You *own* the hardware outright, and can do absolutely anything you wish to do with it so long as you do not break other laws (interfering with the OnStar *network*, interfering with other drivers' OnStar systems...). Neither of those problems should be possible with the basic hack of the OnStar system. After all, you're just hooking into the basic GPS core system, which is a standard Motorola GPS system that you can buy on Ebay.

JD kc0lpv

Violation of OnStar license agreement...

[Anonymous Coward]

...will result in discharge of airbag.

It's not just directions...

[thparker]

I'm all for hacking OnStar to see what happens. But to tout this as a brilliant move because it saves you a few hundred bucks a year is ridiculous.

For $420 a year, you're also getting a call to emergency vehicles instantly when your air bag deploys, a Lojack-like tracking system, remote door unlocking when you lock your keys in the car, and more. That seems like a pretty good deal.

It seems to me that if you've bought OnStar with your car, it's not for driving directions. Or at least, not just for driving directions.

Re:It's not just directions...

[AGTiny]

I think the real problem will be when someone hacks the remote unlocking feature, and can walk through any parking lot unlocking people's doors!

Re:It's not just directions...

[Anonymous Coward]

All that and the ability to be tracked like an animal by anyone with a badge and to enjoy the security of having a built in microphone that can be turned on remotely at the whim of a PATRIOT act empowered police state. Such a deal.

~~~

Re:It's not just directions...

[valkraider]

Here's a hint... They can do all that anyway, even without OnStar.. Look at OnStar as simply saving public tax dollars. ;)

Re:It's not just directions...

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh :). I know "they" can bug us anyway, but I'm sure not going to directly pay for the equipment to do it.

OnStar's REAL purpose...

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

A previous post reminds people that even with a deactivated cell phone, you can call 911 for free. But what if you are unable to do so? Every year there are stories about someone who went off some dark country road and was found a week later. OnStar has the advantage of notifying the 911 folks WITH your location, even if you are unable to. But still, for me, this would only be worth it if I did a lot of driving on dark country roads.

Re:OnStar's REAL purpose...

[Viol8]

Onstar isn't magic, it won't always work. I'm not sure if it uses a cell network or satellite to dial home but if its the former then it'll have the
same issue as any cellphone in remote locations and it its the latter then any large object can block the satellite uplink. This would be a big problem
in mountainous areas where any geostationary satellite could be blocked behind a 10,000 ft peak (GPS doesn't have this issue since it has many non geo satellites).

Re:OnStar's REAL purpose...

[greechneb]

I think you missed his point (which wasn't entirely clear) - People can (and do) often get lost during blizzards, or even at night, and not know where they are. Onstar is able to tell emergency personnel exactly where the person is, even when the person doesn't know.

Re:OnStar's REAL purpose...

[LostCluster]

OnStar uses the ANALOG cell-phone networks... which also means that as providers phase out analog service OnStar's going to have more and more dark spots.

Re:OnStar's REAL purpose...

[Androgynous Coward]

Yes, but the example where a person goes off a rural road and dies because no one noticed is the exception and not the rule.

Hell, why not just carry around a GPS-enabled dead-man switch where if you do not "check in" periodically it dispatches paramedics to your location? Now you're protected when falling down in the tub as well as in your car.

Re:OnStar's REAL purpose...

[Anonymous Coward]

You obviously do not live in a rural area. This happens alot. Of course...on the other hand...not alot of people in rural areas are bound to have OnStar anyway or want/have to money to pay the fee.

Re:OnStar's REAL purpose...

[metalix]

Isn't the crash detection free? It automatically notifies OnStar if your air bags go off. Even if it isn't, they should have you to be able to sign up for a $200 (or whatever) if that did happen, but not have to subscribe to OnStar.

How about unlocking doors?

[Big Ryan]

Has anyone seen the OnStar commercial where the OnStar rep opens the vehicle doors remotely?

How long do you think it would take to come up with a crack that allows third parties to do the same? It would make stealing cars so much easier...

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[KUHurdler]

Yes, because making a hack to open a car with information you can't get (until your inside it) is so much easier than just breaking the window and opening the door.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[BoneFlower]

People crack computer systems all the time with information(passwords) that they aren't supposed to be able to get without being on the inside. It is probably just a matter of time before someone figures out how to do that with OnStar. Be it social engineering the needed info out of someone, or finding a security flaw in the OnStar hardware/software setup, it will happen someday.

And while it might be more difficult than smashing in the window, it leaves the car in perfect condition. That gives more options for using the car or reselling it.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[twiddlingbits]

You can unlock the doors, but without the special chip embedded in the car key the motor won't start, and the transmisson is locked. Assuming you can hack the ignition to bypass the key, the transmission still won't go in gear so you are stuck. So, until someone comes up with a way to fake the code in the key and communicate that to the system, the doors unlocking isn't a big dealfor theft except for ripping off your stuff.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[KUHurdler]

Keep it Simple Stupid.

It would take a week (at most) to learn how to use a slim jim on the models of cars you are looking for. It took a locksmith about 30 seconds to open up my car door and that was with him being careful not to scratch it.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[BoneFlower]

Good point. We had to have someone do that when I locked the keys in the car(engine running too!) after my failed driving test.

An OnStar crack still has a couple advantages though. You can sit on a bench with a laptop, eating lunch, and open your target car without anyone knowning you are doing anything. Starting it might be a problem still, but you will be in the car without doing anything to tip off witnesses. You stick a slim jim in a car door, someone walking by at the wrong time can instantly know you are trying to break in. Not so with an OnStar crack.

Also, cracking OnStar would free you from the quirks of different models of car locks. Not all are in exactly the same place or work exactly the same, so the slim jim technique could hang you up a few extra seconds if it throws you something you don't expect.

Knowing how to use a slim jim will still be a valuable skill for a professional car thief, but being able to crack OnStar will also be valuable.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[Anonymous Coward]

i bet you didn't know they only use about 32 different keys with those "chipped key" systems. hehehe. they could use 2^64-1 or something like that combinations, but it makes it harder for locksmiths! 32 keys! you could find a matching key in about 5 minutes!

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[Anonymous Coward]

why bother waiting? stick a module on someone's car that cycles through combinations, until it hits the right one and detects that the doors open. (vibration / change in battery current / something like that) just check the code a second time and if it works again, you've ruled out the owner themselves using the car. such a device could sit under the car cracking it in months or years going undetected. once it finds the right combination, have it contact you with the current GPS coordinates of the car on your free prepaid phone. LOL. use the method one of the other slashdotters said about there only being about 32 different chipped keys. WOW. weird part is this would work so effectively, and could be done to many cars at once. LOL. (educational purposes only. disclaimer.)

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[commodoresloat]

I once used my own car key to open someone else's car, sat in the driver's seat, and started the car before I realized I wasn't in my own car but in another car of the same make and model. That was creepy.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[leek]

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/dec03/191454.as p

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting anonymously, since I work in a design capacity at a company that manufactures driver controls.

You can unlock the doors, but without the special chip embedded in the car key the motor won't start, and the transmisson is locked. Assuming you can hack the ignition to bypass the key, the transmission still won't go in gear so you are stuck.

Don't count on that. On every AT vehicle I'm aware of, the function of locking the transmission in park is perfomed by the shift control. Many vehicles have some type of mechanical over-ride that allows the transmission to be shifted out of park in the event of a dead battery or other electrical failure.

Even without the mechianical over-ride, a motivated thief could simply destroy the locking mechanism within the shift control.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[Zebbers]

wow i feel glad to drive a real car without all the computerized points of failure

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[jemfinch]

Becuase golly gee whiz, they sure can't break the window or anything...

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I'm sure that wouldn't attract any attention. You sir, are a genius. I hope you start doing some programming on the Linux kernel as well.

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[Anonymous Coward]

Even if you find a method of unlocking the doors remotely, the OnStar system is still present, and as soon as the car is reported stolen, the vehicle can be located. (Yes, eventually theives will learn where the physical tracking device is located in the car, but removing it is not trivial and would result in damage to the car).

Re:How about unlocking doors?

[metalix]

actually it's less than that for the older GM cars with a chipped key. I think there's less than 10. (I used to sell them)

I have to point out...

[HotNeedleOfInquiry]

What kind of self-respecting hacker would own a late-model GM vehicle with Onstar anyway? Most of the serious bit-pushers that I know are driving 12 year old Subarus, Volkswagon Rabbits and clapped-out Honda motorcycles.

Re:I have to point out...

[Anonymous Coward]

I just bought a new VW Passat with OnStar (for when my wife drives it).

Re:I have to point out...

[Desert Raven]

What kind of self-respecting hacker would own a late-model GM vehicle with Onstar anyway? Most of the serious bit-pushers that I know are driving 12 year old Subarus, Volkswagon Rabbits and clapped-out Honda motorcycles.

Apparently, a successful one. You may want to re-think your role-models.

My latest vehicle has OnStar. The first year is included in the vehicle price. I did some serious looking at whether I will renew or not, and came to the conclusion that I would renew at the base level (no direction service, etc). The stolen vehicle locator knocks a bit off my insurance, which defrays a bit of the cost. As for the rest, I consider it additional insurance. I hope I never really need it, but being able to get help at the push of a button, or automatically when the airbag deploys is a little piece of mind when you do a fair amount of cross-country driving.

I was intriqgued to see that someone hacked the OnStar, but frankly, I wasn't all that impressed with the technique. I would have been much more impressed if they had mapped the pinouts, and used a "dongle"-type connector to pull the data without modifying the original unit, and without disturbing the existing functionality. That would have impressed me.

Re:I have to point out...

[bob65]

Apparently, a [financially] successful one.

Re:I have to point out...

[benzapp]

The same ones who have to work for a living and see their jobs being sent offshore.

The importation of foreign vehicles was simply the beginning of internationalist economic policies. Manufacturing of virtually everything has been destroyed in the US. You self respecting hackers had it easy when the the internationalists were not going after YOUR job. Now they are.

Might want to make a rule of focusing your economic activity on your own country, while you still have one.

Re:I have to point out...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because it's so much better to buy a Canadian or Mexican made GM product rather than my Kentucky-made Toyota (80% domestic parts content.)

If the domestic automakers had focused as much on build quality twenty years ago as they are now, instead of complaining to politicians that the Japanese were stealing the market, this would not be a problem. Expecting sympathy from a discriminating consumer is not a long-term solution.

This is foolish.

[TheSHAD0W]

I'd have to opine that this is an extremely foolish thing to do, tear apart one's OnStar module simply to access its GPS unit. A PC-interfaceable GPS costs well under $100, and doing these modifications to your OnStar system may void your vehicle's warranty or reduce its resale value enormously.

Just disconnect the power on the damned thing and get a separate GPS for your onboard PC.

Re:This is foolish.

[Anonymous Coward]

Visit your local automobile recycling center.
AKA Junkyard and buy a onstar system should be about $20-30. And you will be able to work on it in the comfort of your workshop!.

Most junkyards sell the electronic components of cars _very_ inexpensively. The exception is the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) what most people call the computer. (it does have a microprocessor after all and it is usually a custom bit slice job)

Could GM Encrypt OutBound Signal?

[reallocate]

I know nothing about GPS and OnStar, but why couldn't GM encypt the signal going out, preventing use of any other systems?

Frankly, I could buy a lot of maps for $400, but I would think about paying that for the emergency services.

Re:Could GM Encrypt OutBound Signal?

[Anonymous Coward]

They do - This hack involves physical hacking - it isn't always very easy to stop that

Re:Could GM Encrypt OutBound Signal?

[ivan256]

My guess is that GM won't bother because nobody is going to perform this "hack".

Why?

Because the GPS module in the unit, or one very similar, can be had on ebay for $20. It's worth spending the $20 to not lower the resale value of your car.

Re:Could GM Encrypt OutBound Signal?

[reallocate]

Good point: "Buy My Cadillac! By the way, I broke OnStar..."

Re:Could GM Encrypt OutBound Signal?

[Otto]

FYI, if you are capable of performing this particular hack, it's a matter of about 10 seconds to restore it to functionality with OnStar.

The hack itself involves the following steps:
1) Solder a serial cable onto the GPS unit.
2) Hookup a laptop
3) Send a command that sticks the GPS unit into a different mode (NMEA) which is standard and works with all the mapping software you could want.

Getting it back to working with OnStar involves:
1) Sending a command to it to stick it back into Motorola binary mode
2) Unplug the laptop

You can leave the serial interface there. It doesn't mess with anything. And OnStar will work just fine once the GPS box is back in the mode that OnStar expects it to be in.

So your resale value isn't really an issue here. Admittedly, you can ruin the thing if you screw up the soldering, but the soldering part on this one isn't particularly difficult to do.

As long as OnStar is not used to...

[Anonymous Coward]

...enforce speed limits, I'm fine with it.

Imagine getting a ticket in the mail describing your exact location and the speed you were going.

Re:As long as OnStar is not used to...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, no kidding. I should be able to break the law and get away with it. Fucktard.

Re:As long as OnStar is not used to...

[Anonymous Coward]

I may be a fucktard but you, sir, are a moron if you'd endorse this level of government control.

Re:As long as OnStar is not used to...

[Anonymous Coward]

Kind citizen, please turn yourself into the police. We saw you went 1pmh over the speed limit and rolled through the stop sign at 1 inch per second, not a complete stop.

Thank you citizen and do not sneeze, that is littering.

Re:As long as OnStar is not used to...

[Chop]

And how do the sea shells work?

I tell ya, it's the Joker!

[jejones]

After all, from the commercials we know that Batman uses OnStar...

Re:I tell ya, it's the Joker!

[vjmurphy]

Here's the first time Batman is using it:

Batman: OnStar, I locked the keys in the Batmobile.
OnStar: Okay, let me see, looks like you are at Stately Wayne Manor... wait, your secret identity is Bruce Wayne!
Batman: Dammit.

What would be interesting...

[Xibby]

Is if GM took a hint and provited a way to access the GPS without hacking the OnStar system. IR, Bluetooth, or even a cabled interface.

I see the main appeal of using the GPS unit built into the vehicle instead of buying a hand held GPS as it's one less device that needs it's battieres charged. It's likely that the people doing this already have their laptop plugged into the car's cigarette lighter/power outlet and their vehicle only offers one outlet.

It's also one less device that needs to be hidden away or carried with you when you leave the car.

Re:What would be interesting...

[Ian.Waring]

You don't need to hide anything if all that's visible is one button - like the one i've got in my car (which is also the best selling device by a long way in the UK - it's integrated with the road traffic network sensor cameras here and routes you around any major traffic jams that occur in real time).

Just talks you to your destination (UK equivalent of zip code, nearest ATM, nearest gas station, any business in Yellow Pages, etc). Around $800 for the installed unit, $200/year for all the navigation services (which includes the cost of all phone calls made by the unit), $120/year for optional speed camera warnings, and $170/year for optional stolen vehicle tracking.

See Smartnav Flash Demo. A lot of different auto manufacturers this side of the pond fit these as dealer fit options.

Then tell me this...

[HotNeedleOfInquiry]

Was it an extra-cost option when you bought the car, in addition to the monthly fee?

Re:Then tell me this...

[caino59]

Typically (I know in the case of GM vehicles...that the service is included for the first year.
Of course you are kind of covering the cost with paying for the car....

Oh, come on...

[SamMichaels]

Most of the comments here are ripping this poor guy apart for wanting to do this. Give me a break. He's just telling you how you can do it...I seriously doubt any geek is going to get OnStar SOLELY to have a GPS.

This is like saying to the person who broadcasts AM radio from his monitor that a cheap $10 AM transmiter kit from Radio Shack is cheaper than a $100 monitor and that his idea is dumb.

Re:Oh, come on...

[ticklemeozmo]

Absolutely correct!

I believe (and mark this as flamebait as you may), but many /.ers may have forgotten that hacking isn't always about stronger, better, smarter or faster; occasionally it may just be about tinkering or finding out how it works.

Now that we have reached that first step (disconnect and reconnect), we can now move on to trying to see if both work at the same time (maybe he did, I didn't RTFA)!

Not every hack is useful, but every hack is informative in some way to at least some person.

You put the wrong person in charge

[Hal The Computer]

That's just because you but the wrong computer in charge. See, if you had put *ME* in charge, you woudn't have to worry about all those pesky misunderstandings. A HAL 9000 system is quite capable of understanding why you are dying.

I just might decide not to help you. ;-)

This was in the NYTimes

[jesup]

This story was in the NYTimes Dec 18th: NYTimes article - costs money to read now in their Circuits section.

Seems like a lot of work

[John Murray]

Getting a standalone gps unit would see to be simpler, I guess if your good a soldering it might be worth it.

Also am I the only one that finds onstar scary? I mean here's a device where some company can dial in to my car, listen in on the cabin, get my location, or talk to various devices on the car's data network. How do I know who onstar will sell out to? Say the government wants to know where I am, wants to monitor what I'm talking about in my car or if I modified my car in any way. While I don't know if any of these things are possible in the current OnStar system, the basic hardware would seem to support these features. Also not mention onstar uses the notoriously insecure AMPS cell phone system, which seems a little scary considering the amount of access given the onstar unit.

It better be a dark CITY road.

[MDMurphy]

OnStar doesn't make a big deal of it, but while they emphasis the satellite aspect, the communications is pure cellular. If there's no cell coverage, you're SOL as far as OnStar is concerned.
Granted, they use the older analog AMPS network which has better coverage than the newer PCS ones, but it still has limits on where it works.

So if you're lost, OnStar will help if you can call them. If there's no cell coverage, you'd be better off if that GPS wasn't a black box in the trunk but had some sort of display and map database.

the world deserves the truth about 9-11

[MeShowBoy]

Black eyed peas song, "where is the love" says the truth is swept under rug

For a version of the truth, please listen to alanis morrisette's album, "under rug swept", as this was a tribute to the spoiler.

Big hunk of metal

[KUHurdler]

So, I'm looking at the pictures of the onstar unit, and the most surprising part (to me) was how big those units are. And they're all metal. How much do they weigh? If that thing is over 10 lbs I am removing it from my car.

Re:Big hunk of metal

[Anonymous Coward]

If a lousy 10 pounds of additional weight bothers you, then you better get used to driving on fumes:

a gallon of gasoline weighs a whopping 6.5 pounds!!!

You're going to want to stop filling-up the tank and start driving from one station to the next, only getting a gallon or so at each! Sure, it's a royal PAIN, but just imagine how much gas you'll be saving by not unnecessarily hauling all that gasoline around -- I mean, you're going to be passing a hundred gas stations a week, why give all that gasoline a chauffeur-driven tour of all the places it COULD have been bought from?!?!?!

Re:Big hunk of metal

[SirDaShadow]

If that thing is over 10 lbs I am removing it from my car.

Eh, so much for the "big muscle" American cars, eh? What's the matter, did your Ford Focus (google ford focus fire, and you will see, for some reason the link is not showing up) got on fire or something? I sound like a troll, but posts like this make me wonder if Americans don't want to acknowledge the inferiority of QA/Manfucaturing in american cars vs the rest of the world.

Re:Big hunk of metal

[KUHurdler]

While I realize you are just trolling. My opinion still remains that the Onstar in my car is big and bulky.

Since it is disabled in my own car anyway, if it is just sitting there consuming my gas mileage (I realize it is a very small percentage of my car's total weight) it should be removed.

Unlike the OnStar in my car, the gasoline serves a purpose. If I were extremely anal and hand an unlimited amount of time on my hands, your comment would make sense. However, since I am a lazy american, I wait until my tank is running on fumes before I refill it. I hate stopping at the gas station, and if my car had a 100 gallon tank, I would still fill it up all the way, and use it until it was empty.

Re:Big hunk of metal

[KUHurdler]

Actually, I have had a 2001 Chevy Impala for about a month now. Its been very nice so far. I would probably be more likely to consider a Japan/Germany/whatever car if they made one for someone 6'6" like myself.

I couldn't fit ONE of my legs in a ford focus

Re:Big hunk of metal

[Desert Raven]

Two types of folks who get concerned about weight.

Street-rodders. Accelleration is about power/weight ratio. The *easiest* bit to manage is the weight, since modern engines will only take so much modding. It also helps in cornering, etc. These folks will get crazy about removing every last ounce of unecessary weight.

Tow/Haulers. Granted, none of us would care too much about ten pounds, but vehicle weight, axle weight and tongue/bed weight are always a significant consideration.

Oh, and BTW, the Ford Focus wouldn't have OnStar, since it's not a GM product.

Re:Big hunk of metal

[ianjk]

I sound like a troll, but posts like this make me wonder if Americans don't want to acknowledge the inferiority of QA/Manfucaturing in american cars vs the rest of the world.


I take it that you have never owned a Hyundai ;) ...fond memories of shifter falling through the floor on the freeway (c-clamped back in place till she was put to rest, transmission locking up in cold weather, having to push-start it on cold days (-10F.), blowing a hole through the quarter pannel with the high pressure sprayer...

Germany + Japan != rest of the world.

Re:Big hunk of metal

[aflat362]

When did he say he drove an american car?

Given, I drive a Toyota and my next car will likely be a Honda. But not all American cars are shit. Most Pontiacs are built well, the Ford trucks and Chevy cars are typically pretty good. If I were to get a truck it would be a Ford F-150. What about higher end American cars like the Corvette?

And there's a lot of non-american cars that are shit. what about Hundai? or Kia? or Geo - shit shit shit. Actually, I'm not sure where Kia or Geo are made, could be America - who cares, they're shit.

All I'm sayin is you shouldn't be so fucking narrow minded about that kind of shit. Genralizations like that are usually wrong and just piss people off. Which is why god invented the Flaimbait modifier. And also which is why I'm sure I offended at least one Hundai, Kia or Geo owner.

Re:Big hunk of metal

[SirDaShadow]

I used to have a 98 Corolla, had zero problems until I sold it to my friend (he busted the shock absorber, but given the way HE drives, it doesn't surprise me!)

Pontiac? Hmm...how many Grand Ams have you seen on the side of the road?

Hyundai, Kia and GEO (i think) are korean. Usually their standards are subpar. And if you offend their owners, so be it. You are telling how it is just as I do!

Hell, I am a driving a 93 Saturn and other than a leaking transmission, it runs great.

I'm not narrow minded. I'm just tired of people saying that American cars are the greatest things on the planet, when it's more of the exception rather than the rule.

Whew! For a minute there, I got this image of...

[Anonymous Coward]

...all the cars in the mall parking lot suddenly unlocking at the same time.

...a stolen car, reported to OnStar, reporting itself "HERE", and the "culprit" apprehended in his own home is... THE MAYOR?!?!

...traffic jams forming around Redmond on Bill Gates' birthday because everyone's requested directions instead route them to his house.

Then I realized it was the good form of the word "hack"; the one intended to free us from the shackles of corporate subscriptiondom and allow us to simply, once-and-for-all, just BUY a stupid service and just use the blasted thing instead of having to keep paying our dues in licensing hell .

Who pays the cell service?

[ad0gg]

So onstar works via cell phone, if I don't pay the $400 a year, i'd assume they disconnect the number, so how would this hack work? Or am I missing somthing here?

No, I'm New Here

[New Here]

No, I'm New Here

Way to go...

[Anonymous Coward]

.. You just slashdotted the site counter.

Two ways of looking at it...

[Phoenix]

Two ways of looking at it.

Either:
$400/year for EMS contacting, vehicle location, vehicle unlocking, directions, mapping, list of local services. This is far more than what the crippled Onstar would be able to do and in my opinion well worth the investment

Or:
Delorme Mapping software - $40
Delorme Earthmate GPS - $90
Laptop Computer - $1100

This is capable of:
Mapping, GPS Location, local service look-up (gas stations, hotels, businesses, eateries, etc.) play DVD's, play MP3's, let your driving companion play Q3A. Again well worth the investment.

However since many of us geeks out there already have laptops and since it would seem that you need on to do the OnStar hacks, the $130 for a Delorme GPS rig seems to be the cheaper and FAR simpler solution.

But that's just my humble opinion

Re:Two ways of looking at it...

[Anonymous Coward]

And if your car runs off the road and hits a tree I'm sure your laptop will "sense" it and magically send help :)

Re:Two ways of looking at it...

[Phoenix]

"And if your car runs off the road and hits a tree I'm sure your laptop will "sense" it and magically send help :)"

If that is a feature that you want then paying the $400/year isn't a bad way to go. However it strikes me as pointless to hack an OnStar module voiding all sorts of warranties and crippling most of it's functions just to hook it up to a laptop.

My point is if you're going to bring a laptop to the game, just hook the darn thing up to a $90 GPS and get some sort of mapping program.

Besides, I'm sure that there is someone out there who can figure out how to make a laptop dial out on a cell modem and say Accident at Lat. x, Long. Y, please send help

Re:Two ways of looking at it...

[MemoryAid]

Most laptops have more experience crashing than do most cars.

THE PROPER TERM IS CRACKED U NOOBS!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not HACKER the proper term is CRACKER thank you very much you silly noobs.

Yes, but...

[cHiphead]

... once you've lost your mouse arm, no more counter strike pwnage, whats the point in living anyway?

Violation of the GMCA

[Anonymous Coward]

NT

Re:Violation of the GMCA

[fadeaway]

Thanks, Dad..

Please Mod parent up.

[Lord Kano]

I'm outta mod points...

I've seen and comtemplated this...

[Otto]

This isn't all that new. All that it is really doing is building a serial interface onto the GPS part of the OnStar module and letting you access the data directly. Why bother?

1) The data is there already. It's cool to have access to it.

2) Many people, myself included, find OnStar somewhat useless, and don't pay for a subscription after the first free year. So it's nice to get some use out of that hardware that was already in the purchased vehicle anyway.

3) Using the built in GPS unit means no visible GPS antenna or hardware or what have you.

4) Because you can.

There's other parts of the OnStar hardware that are kinda cool too. The thing is basically a brain unit hooked to an analog cell phone and a GPS receiver. There's a built in microphone (in my case in the rear view mirror) and a connection to the car stereo system (both for audio and data, data being to display information on the radio display). Mainly I've been trying to hack the thing to let me use my own cell phone with the unit and thus make hands free calls, using the brain unit for the voice dialing functionality and so forth. Thus letting me make calls on my own phone without pahying the buck a minute charged by OnStar for their phone service.

Hey, the box in the car is *mine*. I paid for it, and I can do as I please with it.

Yes, you are

[Anonymous Coward]

The cell phone is used only for carrying voice data (when you talk to the OnStar operator). The GPS unit used for navigation is a totally separate piece of equipment.

Re:Yes, you are

[Anonymous Coward]

Alrighty, then, howsabout a little computer voice (or Majel Barett's voice or, better yet, the *original* Enterprise computer voice, just for us old Trekkies...) that calls 911 for free on the disconnected cell phone line and announces "the air bag on Joe User's Blue 1997 Cadillac just deployed at GPS coordinates [blah][blah][blah]"? It makes the entire system stand-alone, while still preserving the "Help, I've fallen and I can't get up!" feature that makes it so useful.

Re:Yes, you are

[Cheerio Boy]

The original Enterprise computer _was_ Majel Barett.

OBD codes generally need human interpretation...

[FatSean]

Likely, the system extracts the error codes and sends them to an operator who takes their presence in context with what the car was doing when the lite came on. Unless you are familiar with modern engine control systems, you're gonna need someone to tell you if it's bad or really bad.

Damn old news

[Anonymous Coward]

How come slashdot post old news like this one ?

I saw that page at least a year ago...

Bag

Onstar for what?

[baomike]

I could never figure out what to use something like
this for. If I am 30 miles west of Rome Oregon and
I don't have a pretty good idea of where I am , I have problems that Onstar is not going to solve.
I couldn't call anyone any way.Some of the area doesn't even have landline phones.
I have a 2meter rig in the car but out there I am
not sure even that would contact anyone.

YANAL

[fmaxwell]

You are not a lawyer:

I'd have to opine that this is an extremely foolish thing to do, tear apart one's OnStar module simply to access its GPS unit. A PC-interfaceable GPS costs well under $100, and doing these modifications to your OnStar system may void your vehicle's warranty or reduce its resale value enormously.

Would you stop with these idiotic proclamations about how it could "void your vehicle's warranty? You can't void an entire vehicle's warranty by modifying the OnStar unit. You may void the warranty on the OnStar unit, but U.S. federal law requires that a modification be the cause of the failure before a warranty claim can be denied. That's why car dealers can't get our of repairing your failed transmission by claiming that your warranty is void because you installed an aftermarket stereo.

Read the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act and learn something.

RTFA, troll...

[Anonymous Coward]

This isn't about cracking at all (though the subject here on Slashdot makes it sound that way). This actually is about hacking. You know, messing around with some hardware and software and making it do things it wasn't originally intended to do.

Batteries.

[Moderation abuser]

Just get a map and look at the road signs. It's only a problem for women.

What is behind OnStar?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here's a little info on the hardware and infrastructure behind OnStar

What is telematics? (Motorola.com)

Except that it's brilliant and useful

[bobs2pacsvegaswirled]

Having an integrated GPS unit in your car (not sliding around on or velcroed to the dash) with an integrated external antenna is really valuable. It would cost at least $250 to install an equivalent system and even then it would not look as nice. The speculation about voiding the entire auto warranty is FUD. You can remove your entire stereo system and destroy it without jeopardizing the warranty on the rest of the car. However this is only half of the hack. Someone needs to learn how to unlock the cellular phone so that people can independently buy service. Then you could dial in to your car to track it, unlock it -- all the same things as onstar.

MOD PARENT DOWN

[Anonymous Coward]

The parent post is not insightful or informative. It is complete bullcrap. A car manufacturer cannot refuse to provide warranty service just because you screwed with the OnStar unit. The only way that they could refuse to honor your warranty would be if your mod broke something. You can change the color of your car, replace the stereo, put in different seats, add a tachometer, put a wing on the back, put bumper stickers on it, or mod your OnStar unit and they still have to honor the warranty if the axle breaks six months after you get it.

The point?

[lisany]

If you can afford a car with OnStar in it you can afford to pay the monthly fee.

Re:The point?

[briansz]

If you can afford a car with OnStar in it you can afford to pay the monthly fee. You mean like one of the Saturns that has it? This stuff is for insecure suburbanites who lack any hint of resourcefulness, or simply for the gadget-crazed. Personally, I've got legs, tools, and ingenuity. I can break into my own Ram pickup in less than 60 seconds with a tree branch. Fees? Hand-Holding? No thanks.

But that's the pont.

[mindstrm]

If something went wrong with the electrical system, and they could reasonably show that your modifications to onstar could have caused it, fine, fair enough..

But "voids the warrantee" means that, if you modify the onstar system, and then a week later the rear axle falls off and the right front door hinges sieze up, they can say "sorry, you modified your onstar system, it's your problem".

The act in question means they can't just invalidate teh entire warrantee on the vehicle just because of one unrelated part.

An actual transcript

[swillden]

I ran "doctor" in Emacs. I think it's actually funnier

----

I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time you are finished talking, type RET twice.

I need help.

Why do you say you need help?

I had an accident.

Is it because of your plans that you say you had an accident?

My car crashed.

Maybe your life have something to do with this.

My car crashed!

What makes you believe your car crashed?

Because I'm upside down and bleeding!

Is it because you are upside down and bleeding that you came to me?

Yes! I need some help!

Earlier you said you are upside down and bleeding?

Yes! Help me!

Is it because of the people you hang around with that you are going
through all this?

No, I already told you that I'm hurt because my car CRASHED!

Does it bother you that your car crashed?

It hurts! I need help!

Is it because of problems at school that you say you need help?

DAMN YOU! JUST GET ME SOME HELP!

You mentioned that you are upside down and bleeding?

HELP ME YOU MORON!

How do you reconcile any hobbies you have?

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

Can you elaborate on that?

Re:An actual transcript

[Anonymous Coward]

You mentioned that you are upside down and bleeding?

HELP ME YOU MORON!

How do you reconcile any hobbies you have?

AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!

Can you elaborate on that?

Arthur: What?
Brother Maynard : The Castle of AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
Sir Bedemere: What, he's dead?
Brother Maynard: He must've died while carving it.
Arthur: Oh, come on!
Brother Maynard: Well that's what it says.
Arthur: Look, if he was dying he wouldn't bother to carve "AAAAAGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!" He'd just say it.
Brother Maynard: Well that's what's carved in the rock.
Sir Lancelot: Perhaps he was dictating.
Arthur: Oh, shut up.

Uhm...

[rs79]

> I for example have a 1998 sentra

BZZZZZZT... next.

Re:Uhm...

[zakezuke]

> I for example have a 1998 sentra

>> BZZZZZZT... next.

The Sentra isn't a geekable enough car for ya? Lol... and I thought it was the fasion for geeks to own cars worth less then their computers. I freely admit i'm a cheep bastard, and typicaly speaking I would vote for a Toyota (Corola / Camry) or Suburu (WRX). I selected the sentra for one reason... it uses a timing chain rather then a belt. In other words, Toyota or Honda's have this magical recouring charge every 50,000 miles or so. The Sentra does not.. to me means one less thing to fuck with during it's life.

Can we spoof OnStar?

[GuyMannDude]

Actually, i was hoping one of these websites would tell me how to spoof the OnStar system of all the hot chicks so that when they try to go to some hot dance club all dolled up they'd end up at my apartment instead.

"Hey, babes! You look like you're ready to part-ay! C'mon in! I've got rum-n-cokes, well actually they're rum and Diet Caffeine Free Dr. Pepper, some Blatz on tap and some CDs of ABBA going already! Now, who wants to do the Macarena with me?"

GMD

Old Diesel Mercedes

[rs79]

Forget those toy cars. If I get into an accident the other guy is goona die, not me.

Besdies, everyone knows chicks love diesels

Finally its been halfway done!

[billsf]

AFAIK this is used nowhere in Europe and therefore the very long wait and very crude hack. My first encounter with this was when I visited my parents in California a few years ago. It was an obvious hack object to me.

You have a GPS system and a (crude) mobile phone. Both of these can be used seperately. If you are overly honest, register the phone to yourself! (I doubt "OnStar" is going to notice a few local calls however.)

To go into how I'd "skin the cat" would be offtopic, but you want to acheive these objectives:

1) Safety
2) GPS service
3) Privacy
4) A free mobile phone

Very quickly, the system should be 'intact' at most times. Incoming calls (that are not for the user) should be blocked in the name of privacy in normal situations. It should then be trivial to get both your GPS coordinates and have use of the phone.

Only by 'doing something' can abuses be avoided. It certainly could be used by police to monitor your position and average speed! It is however important to allow emergency help know your exact position. Only by taking control of what you own can you accomplish this.

The hack presented is about as low class as it can get. If this system were in Europe, you would have seen it done right before the the first units were deployed for production use!

Be your own Onstar

[Baron_Yam]

Until I read "bobs2pacsvegaswirled"'s post, I was only thinking of the GPS and basic cell phone access - but hacking the unit so you could dial in from your cell phone, press '7' and open the locks would be nifty. Even better would be pressing '9' to disable the car if it's stolen.

Really, at that point where you could do that, you're paying Onstar to be a surrogate cell phone, right? Suddenly, their annual fee looks ridiculous.

Of course, you could also do things (not for the tinfoil hat crowd) like have a home PC autodial the system every hour for a GPS update and alert you if the car isn't where it should be, update a secure web site so you can track your kid from the office, etc, etc, etc... maybe even hide a webcam in the dash and send a .jpg of the driver!

neato

[MoFoQ]

now link it with a small mini-ITX computer and a modified CB (modded to link with a computer, not power modified to adhere to FCC regs) so the computer will transmit a pre-recorded (in Ogg Vorbis format) in case of an accident.
Now all one has to do is link the mini-ITX computer with the car's computer and to the alarm system to fully automate it.....then make a webpage interface like Webmin so one can control their car or track it via a PDA

Re:OBD codes generally need human interpretation..

[zakezuke]

Likely, the system extracts the error codes and sends them to an operator who takes their presence in context with what the car was doing when the lite came on. Unless you are familiar with modern engine control systems, you're gonna need someone to tell you if it's bad or really bad.

The funny thing is... even if you are familar with modern engine codes... there is no way to determine whether or not if it's bad or really bad via remote. As with any sorta logic system... it can only communicate bad, or good. So it's either a sensor or a thingie. Based on my experence, the check engine light doesn't ever communicate really bad, only preventive maintance nessicary. I.e. it can report a misfire in one of your cylinders, there is no way an ONSTAR person can judge whether it's your plug, your wire, distributer, or busted rod. There is really no sensor for REALLY BAD.

Reversible mod??

[SiliconJesus101]

Looks to me like this hack/mod can be totally reversed to restore your unit to factory configuration. So, what the hell...if you sell the car, change it back, if you have to go in for warranty service, change it back.

$400 a year?

[Wire Tap]

What is this crap? It's $199 a year after the subscription (which comes with all vehicles new from the dealer) is up.

I bet there's about a million extra features that could hike it to the $400 range, but, come on, get real and stop making your own FUD.

Re:SHUT UP, FAGGOT

[Anonymous Coward]

yeah no shit.. "rosco p. coltrane".. fucking fag

This comment brought to you by Ophidian Jones, whose entire history of moderations -2 with today's gem, and +1 once, God knows why (total karma, therefore, being -1 : sink me if I'm not impressed by such greatness).

Out of the 10 comments he's made so far, here are some perls from our retarded friend. Enjoy, it's worth its weight in adolescent pimples :


Wow! Just imagine a beowulf cluster of these kids. (Score:1)
by Ophidian Jones (102796) on Tuesday November 30, @09:10PM (#1491362) .....err, wait :)

Re:#1 text (Score:1)
by Ophidian Jones (102796) on Saturday June 10, @02:14PM (#1011322)
suck my balls

Hi (Score:1)
by Ophidian Jones (102796) on Tuesday June 13, @08:11PM (#1004065)
I want a bionic wang

Re:Me in Quake? How boring... (Score:1)
by Ophidian Jones (102796) on Thursday June 15, @08:07AM (#1000017)
yeah, so in other words, youre a fag, alright thanks.

Re:SHUT UP, FAGGOT (Score:-1)
by Ophidian Jones (102796) on Friday December 26, @01:36PM (#7813593)
yeah no shit.. "rosco p. coltrane".. fucking fag

Re:Like I said, change your diapers.

[Anonymous Coward]

The last word.

We'll have FUD FUD FUD...

[Otto]

'til daddy takes the T-Bird away...

OnStar doesn't track the cars continuously. Anyone with half a brain could deduce that from the evidence.

a) It has an analog cell phone
b) All communication goes through the cell network
c) Using the cell network costs $$$

The way it works is that when you press the OnStar button, the cell phone calls home and connects you with a rep. The GPS data is transmitted at that time in case you want directions or something.

It also calls home in the event of an airbag deployment. (In the case of newer model GM cars, this connection between the car's class 2 network and the OnStar box is actually through the radio's wiring and so it may not work if you put in a third party radio without using the proper wiring harness, which bypasses the radio connection.)

While it's true that OnStar can call your box directly (such as if you want to unlock your doors or in the event that your vehicle is stolen and they want to track/disable the car), there's no real benefit for them to know your location at all times. How is them knowing where you are helping them financially to the extent that they would pay money for the call to your car to gather that data? It's not like the data can magically appear on their system without some form of transmission from your car to them. They have to contact your car and get that data, and that means the cellular networks will want cash for them to do that. So that data would have to be more valuable to them than the cost of the calls to the car.

Onstar Ruins Lives!

[Anonymous Coward]

I work in local government and this is a true story...

Our local district attorney, who happened to be up for re-election this year, was fortunate enough to be the recipient of a divorce and ruined career thanks to the Onstar system.

Seems that he decided to have a little fling with his "girl on the side"... much passion and many hours later his wife, who obviously was worried sick, decides to call up Onstar to have them track the car... Onstar finds the car, in a cornfield, and passes the info on the the Sheriff's dispatchers. Being the important person that he was, local law enforcement jumps in the game and rushes to the cornfield expecting to find him in a wreck or whatever... instead they find him getting it on with the girl.

Concerned citizens find out about the incident, sue for the 911 tapes... end of the guy's career.

Moral of this story folks - don't screw with Onstar.

Let me know when they get out the northstar data

[drinkypoo]

From what I understand, onstar is most useful when coupled with northstar; GM's latest and greatest V8 which is chock-full of sensors and supposedly will relay all kinds of information to GM, as in your number three spark plug isn't firing, or you're starting to get detonation, and your timing is being retarded however far. This data can then be sent to the appropriate service department when they schedule your service. This way they have an idea of what to look at before you even drive in. Modern ECUs look at an amazing amount of information when deciding what to do with your fuel delivery. Consider this, a modern auto with sequential electronic fuel injection monitors intake air flow, intake air temperature, O2 output, sometimes CO output, exhaust gas temperature, throttle opening position, crank angle, and they generally have a knock detection sensor. They can advance or retard ignition and fuel delivery timing. And that's just the stuff that basically every car does now; Many cars now have variable valve timing, so they can adjust valve timing, duration, and/or lift, some have multiple-stage intake runners so they can make the intake system more restrictive to enhance low-end torque, there are cars with coil on plug ignitions which means that the ignition timing is not advanced or retarded, but simply carried out by the ECU... Hell, Subarus tie the Transmission and Engine computers (which are separate) together so that the traction control system can instruct the ECU to reduce engine output during some types of slip situations.

It would be fantastic to be able to get all that information out of the car in realtime, all the time. Especially since Northstar engines are reputedly some of the most wired engines ever, and most cars with them have Onstar, it seems like something that some people might like to take advantage of. However, those motors are usually in fantastically expensive cars, so the market probably isn't very large.

Re:OBD codes generally need human interpretation..

[RoadOfTheDevil]

In addition, it helps to have someone who knows what is going on so that when the OBD lies, you know what it really is trying to tell you.

My wife's MIL (check engine light) came on. When I hit it with the code scanner, it came back as multiple misfires, and bad TPS (throttle position sensor). After checking, cleaning, and gapping the spark plugs, and checking that the voltage output of the TPS was correct (it was), I determined that the EGR (exhaust gas recirc) valve was clogged. Since the EGR connects to the engine and the throttle body, it was setting off the TPS sensor, and not its own code.

Dumb luck is how I happened to find out that a malfuctioning EGR can report as a bad TPS.

That is why you take it to a mechanic. If my mom or dad had OnStar diag the car and they told them that they had a bad TPS or EGR, they still wouldn't know if the car was ok to drive or not.

Oh, and cleaning the EGR valve also cleared the multiple misfires error as well.

Chris

Wow, Slashdot is Slow!

[ahecht]

There was a story about this in the New York Times on December 18th. Really, when Slashdot can't even beat dead tree news sources for stories like this, something is seriously wrong.

Hack already exists, called a "brick".

[Anonymous Coward]

And ironically, it works by "cracking" the clear firewall that keeps intruders out of your highway browser.

Thats because Slashdot isn't a news site.

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot does not create content, they merely report content after the fact. By default, Slashdot will always be "behind" any news source.

No, moral is, don't cheat.

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the adultery and betrayal of marital trust had a WAY bigger part in ending the marriage.

Chicks love diesels....

[HotNeedleOfInquiry]

Then how come I didn't score when I drove the Diesel Rabbit?

Re:Let me know when they get out the northstar dat

[valkraider]

We have an application and(VAG-COM) and an adapter which plugs in to our volkswagen and provides ALL SORTS of cool info - just like what you are talking about. We can use it in real-time... Neat stuff... And you can adjust settings as well (even break things - just like at the shop!)

PATRIOT Act circumvention

[Tremo]

If these OnStar hacks become popular, and if they disable the normal operation of the system, how long before Ashcroft and that Texas moron Dubya move to make these mods illegal under the Patriot act? It would prevent the FBI/CIA/NSA/DIA/IRS/Deputy Dawg from tracking your movements! Circumvention!!! Clearly only someone subversive would not want Ashcroft and his right wing gang from knowing where you are. Ashcroft has said that law abiding citizens have nothing to fear from the Patriot Act!!! And then there's all the DMCA issues that may arise!! Don't you just love our government?? God help us.

Huh?

[boobsea]

As much as I hate the Dubya/Ashcroft admnistration, what the hell does moding your OnStar system have to do with the Patriot act?

Please, no mindless political bashing.

Re:SHUT UP, FAGGOT

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh ya and Anonymous Coward is really known for his dazzling insights.

Lixor my Dixor, Ya FAGGIT.

OEM units

[hey!]

I agree. It seems like the point of this "hack" is to get access to the GPS unit. Seems like a bad idea to mess with an expensive unit and possibly void your warranty, especially when you're just getting access to a $20 OEM GPS unit.

I'd say the main thing about doing this is that they've already mounted the GPS antenna and routed the cable. This is going to be cleaner looking and probably get better signal than slapping a GPS on the dashboard. It'd be nice to make a little box that sat under your dashboard, or maybe in your glove box, that you could just plug your laptop into.

I've had a little experience with the OEM GPS units in embedded systems. They send the standard NMEA strings so any GPS program can use them. The main issue is that they output TTL level (0,5V) rather than RS-232 (-12/+12). Your laptop probably won't care but some PDAs won't be able to read the data. I'd just mount the thing on a little breadboard,wire up th e power leads, run the two I/O wires to an DB-9 shell and the antenna input to the appropriate connector. Then unplug the GPS antenna from the onstar unit and plug it the antenna jack. The advantage of this is that there are no warranty issues; just plug the antenna lead back into the onstar unit when you take it in for service and nobody's the wiser.

You can get completely assembled, self contained, true RS-232 units for about $120. For less than $200 more, you can have differential GPS with 3m accuracy.

Another option I've messed with are little bluetooth enabled GPS receivers. These would be very clean and unobtrusive on a dashboard.

Re:OEM units

[Anonymous Coward]

have you ever modded the GPS units to get rid of the 550m/s velocity limit ?
if so, how ?

Re:Let me know when they get out the northstar dat

[jfisherwa]

Beat me to the punch.

This is the software that basically forced me to permanently mount a PC in my car.

And to think I had spent so much money on my car to impress the chicks, I had to go and ruin it all by nerding it out with yet another computer. ;)

Regards,

Put on your tin-foil hats!

[joeytsai]

Those worried about big brother may want to check out this article concerning On Star. Basically, once the FBI found out they could snoop on people (OnStar apparently has a "listen" feature) they were all over it.

Not to mention the possibilities of random strangers listening in...

Re:Put on your tin-foil hats!

[Anonymous Coward]

once the FBI found out they could snoop on people (OnStar apparently has a "listen" feature) they were all over it.

Or just remove the fuse / disconnect the wire.

I have to admit, I would personaly disconnect such a device. Not like the FBI is often after me, but it does present a privacy issue. I just might happen to want to masturbate in my car, and that would be the day the spooks will be playing with their equipment.

Re:Let me know when they get out the northstar dat

[Zebbers]

ya, or they could just build tough motors..

Rolling eyes...

[Anonymous Coward]

"That's worth the OnStar subscription..."

Only if you're over 64 or missing a leg from fighting in Korea.

Other than that, a cell phone is more versatile and costs less, too.

Diet

[chamcham]

or get AAA and take out the spare tire, jack, and tire iron. Those 3 items weigh much more than 10lbs.

Leave onStar so we can avoid pulling you over and automatically deduct the speeding ticket fine from your checking account or credit card. Anyone remember Seaquest DSV?

You area silly dork

[Anonymous Coward]

" Every year there are stories about someone who went off some dark country road and was found a week later. "

Every year there are stories of flying carpets.

Every year there are stories about how Elvis is alive

Every year weird stuff happens.

You play the odds. Get a cell phone, dude.

No, you are foolish.

[Anonymous Coward]

"and doing these modifications to your OnStar system may void your vehicle's warranty"

False. It probably voids the OnStar warranty, but the person who does this isn't interested in OnStar anyway.

"or reduce its resale value enormously"

Sure. The first thing the Used Car manager ask is "does the OnStar work".

Come back to the planet earth and we'll talk.

S-T-U-P-I-D

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's worth spending the $20 to not lower the resale value of your car."

Don't be a moron. The OnStar has less effect on your car than an aftermarket radio.

That's right...did you know an aftermarket radio will lower your car's value?

On the other hand, Nobody cares about OnStar; why do you think its doing so poorly. So the used value of the car, assuming you screwed up your onstar, is affect less than $1.98 by this. And that's probably an exaggeration. It probably no effect whatsoever.

You've bought into a myth...

[Anonymous Coward]

"hack an OnStar module voiding all sorts of warranties"

The electronics world has all sorts of EULA and restrictions and DMCA junk associated with it.

Cars are much different. Please don't display your ignorance to blissfully on this topic. You are completely clueless. Cars follow a more logical set of laws. Software follows the "alice in wonderland" model that you seem more comfortable with.

You ARE stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

where do I start. My fingers are aching just getting thinking of all the typing to shoot down your proud display of ignorance.

Sigh.

First, OnStar is not safety equipment. Its communications equipment. Its no more safety equipment than a CD Radio is safety equipment. Its a marketing ploy that nobody cares about.

Second, a person skilled enough to do this hack can undo this hack in less time than it will take for me to type this response to your stupidity.

Third, OnStar has no effect on vehicle resale. Now, an aftermarket radio does, an OnStar doesn't. Why? Because its a marketing feature that only a few mush-brains think is valuable. The rest of the human race is not interested, which explains why OnStar is selling so poorly (after the "free" subscription).

Fourth, if someone was "depending" on OnStar (which sounds just moronic to say, but lets go with the stupid flow), don't you think they would have tested it when they set up the subscription? I mean, cripes, think it through.

Fifth, OnStar has no possible mechanism to deploy airbags. Stop your simpering fearmongering

In summary, let me say that you are the kind of person who...I don't even want to say it. But I hope you don't have children, and its impossible for you to consider it.

I know that God put you on this earth to make normal people look brilliant.

Re:You ARE stupid

[Anonymous Coward]

People - use cracker where you see hacker if you're so inclined.

(First, OnStar is not safety equipment. Its
communications equipment. Its no more safety
equipment than a CD Radio is safety equipment.
Its a marketing ploy that nobody cares about.)
Airbags deploy, you're out cold and you're position is pinpointed and given to emergency rescue - if possible - is "safer" than if the airbags just deploy. You lost point one - one point to me.
(Second, a person skilled enough to do this hack
can undo this hack in less time than it will take
for me to type this response to your stupidity.)
Some people think they are much more skilled than they are. Also if they screw up and I sue, I can only sue them for everything they've got - that may not be enough. This is a draw as some people can undo it but some people only think that can - the dangerous situation. A draw - .5 points each.
(Third, OnStar has no effect on vehicle resale.)
I checked, you're right, Kelly Blue Book value doesn't change if OnStar is a feature of the car or not. I think that is because what they're selling is the service and probably don't care whether the system is installed or not, just whether the client has a change to obtain the service. I guess my point is that a tampered with OnStar that prevents people from subscribing to the service is the issue. Having to pay for it to be fixed if you don't want the non-certified fix from the person you're purchasing it from is the cost there. Again a draw here - .5 points each.
(Fourth, if someone was "depending" on OnStar
(which sounds just moronic to say, but lets go
with the stupid flow), don't you think they would
have tested it when they set up the subscription?
I mean, cripes, think it through.)
I'm sure you can test some basic functions but the testing will assume a non-tampered with system. Sure the airbag-to-call-for-assistance link may still be there after tampering and pass a test but maybe the tampering has moved wires into a position of weakness that will snap on impact but looks fine to the hacker - or a new wire will fall across others and short the system on impact. Many engineers and much testing is put into figuring out where all of this should sit and what will happen in a crash - most people - even hackers - don't have the detailed knowledge to change a very complex system successfully. This point is obviously mine.
(Fifth, OnStar has no possible mechanism to
deploy airbags. Stop your simpering fearmongering)
I didn't say it did - you lost another point. I said that people that are non-technical may not believe you if you said it couldn't cause a false deployment due to your hacking as they might not believe someone willing to mess with a safety system - hindering your ability to get a good price unless you're dishonest on this point or find a techie you can explain everything to in detail. Airbags deploying when they're not supposed to is already a big problem for fire/safety personnel. They're trying to extricate someone after a crash and things like static electricity or someone trying to use the jaws of life are setting these things off - often bashing their head into the passenger's head. The last thing we need is websites telling people that think they're smart to go in and mess with these systems.
So:
1 Me 1
2 Me .5 You .5
3 Me .5 You .5
4 Me 1
5 Me 1
So on 5 points I'm at 4 and you're at 1 - who is the one that should think about not having kids?
Even if I give you all of 2 and 3 you're still down by one - again - don't mess with safety equipement unless you're authorized to do so or you know you won't sell the car.

Re:Let me know when they get out the northstar dat

[drinkypoo]

Yeah, my car has a consult port and using three ICs and a few capacitors I can build a serial interface to connect it to whatever. The protocol has been reverse engineered. The only problem is that the only speed which has been tested so far is 9600 baud and it takes a good four bytes or so to send any information, plus it streams the data until you cancel it and wait for something else, I'm thinking you can only get about 50-100 status updates out per second best case, but I haven't got the chips I need yet.

No, moral is, don't get married

[Anonymous Coward]

If you don't have a wife, then you don't have a wife to get pissed off when you're cornholing in the cornfield.

Here's a mod for you...

[Dave21212]

How about an LED to indicate when the FBI is in 'listen' mode on your OnStar ? Any here old enough to remember the old 'Radio Shack' phone trace mod where you place an few items together with an LED that indicate when the trace tone is being sent over your line (usually accompanied by the 'big red button' mode for hanging up your modem real quick) ?

Ahhh, there it is, a V-Box. No plans though. Thanks Google ;)

Ahhh... the good ol days ;)

The first real insensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

"6 pieces of hamburger meat". WOW your run a real professional ship eh? Nice to hear a paramedic refer to a human as hamburger, you insensitive clod. Who are you trying to impress so much that would make you say something like that?

Re:The first real insensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, this guy's job is trying to save people, not use pretty euphemisms to shield people from the ugliness of life/death. Firefighters frequently refer to those who have died in a fire as 'crispy critters'.

The first real oversensitive clod

[Anonymous Coward]

Relax. Hamburger is perfectly descriptive, and I've heard lots of people use it in just that way. In a bad enough auto accident, past a certain point...hamburger describes things just fine.

Kind of a waste of time, don't you think?

[Weaselmancer]

From the article:

That's because Ray Kawal, a 57-year-old retired engineer, had pried the OnStar unit from behind the glove compartment and customized it to work with his laptop and commercially available mapping software. His wife read him directions right off the laptop that sat between them. The modified unit was no longer connected to the OnStar network, over which representatives could have provided the same service for a fee.

So...this guy pried open his dashboard, just to salvage a GPS unit from it? And then hook it to a laptop??

Here's what I did. I got a NMEA 2.0 compatible GPS mouse from eBay for $50. Then bought a $200 laptop, also from eBay. I can do everything that Ray can do, and I didn't have to tear the hell out of my dashboard to do it.

Guys, past a certain point "because I can" isn't an excuse. =)

Weaselmancer

Since when has being foolish stopped people?

[raehl]

Attempting to climb mount everest is foolish, yet people still try. Some people will do things just to prove that they can.

Everest climbers are foolish in the physical peril sense. Hackers are foolish in the effort not worth the reward sense.

Re:They send the standard NMEA

[Technician]

If you read the article, they state the On Star system does not use standard NMEA. It uses a Motorola system. However, using the Motorola diagnostic software, you can switch off the Motorola format and switch the unit to NMEA. This then can be used by a laptop and standard off the shelf maping software that uses NMEA. While the receiver is in NMEA mode, the On Star system does not recognise the GPS output until you switch it back to the Motrola mode.

I wonder if the hack is the same for the Toyota Prius. It's map unit is easly reached under the seat. The GPS string should be there somewhere. The receiver is really buried under the dash near the firewall. Would be handy if you want signal strength readings or to record you trip.

Deadly Modification

[Anonymous Coward]

Does this disable the airbag notification that Onstar has? Because I'd hate to die because I tried to save a few bucks in service fees.

Re:Deadly Modification

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't be so stupid. Read the article.

Cripes, I'm hoping that your steering linkage breaks when you're going 60 MPH through a dangerous section of road.

Onstar-enabled chatty cars?

[flynns]

Hey, just a thought... ...if you can twerk around with the Onstar system onboard the car, could you find a way to transmit signals to similarly-hacked Onstar autos and network your cars? I could actually flesh this out and make it seem a little more feasible, technically, but I'm sick, it's stupid o'clock in the morning, and the cough syrup is not being good to me. yeah. thing to ponder.

funny thing on Motorweek

[cwerdna]

On a funny note: Motorweek not long ago tested a new 04 Chevy Malibu. The funny thing was that there was so much body roll during the slalom that it tripped OnStar. The driver received a call from the OnStar operator in the MIDDLE of doing his slalom test! LOL!

subscription

[hakker]

There was some financial data released last year showing that some huge number, like 90% or more of people who obtained Onstar with their cars, did *not* renew after the 1 year was up. It seemed that people, especially those with cell phones, felt that the service was a beefed up cell phone and they didn't want to pay for two phones if they already had one, or just one phone for their car if they themselves didn't have a cell phone.

Take that to mean whatever you want, but I would rather use the equipment than let it sit unused just because I didn't pay for the service.

My $0.02

Re:subscription

[snolan]

I did not renew after the first year.
Hell, I wanted a refund for the wasted money (cost of the car was higher because of the OnStar crap).

My reasons:

• As a cellphone, it was insanely expensive per minute (~$1/minute if very few used, dropping gradually to $0.20 per minute the more you use) - compared to my Nextel, that 's insane.
  
• As a Navigation system, it sucked. The directions were no better than the person at the other end of the call. Sometimes excellent, sometimes miserable... all depended on who was on shift. The directions were never turn by turn, instead - the call taker would rattle off the directions they pulled off of something like MapQuest/MapBlast and feed them to you all at once while you are on the call and expect you to call back as often as you needed to to get to the destination. Compared to any onboard turn-by-turn system, this was dramatically inferior, especially on rainy nights where you are still counting on being able to read road signs (the turn by turn ones can almost direct a blind person). Even worse, the map source the OnStar call center people use was not as up to date as the 2 year old CD's in my wife's BMW! (this was a shock, in theory OnStar's maps can always be up to date because they bypass the whole distribution of media thing).
  
• I never lock myself out of the car, so did not care about that.
  
• I am concerned about privacy, and OnStar can be set to passively listen and there is no way I can tell that it is doing so.
  
• I already have lojack.
  
• The remaining reason to keep OnStar active (the hypothetical emergency services call that can happen if airbags deploy and I am out cold), just is not enough to make me subscribe to such expensive service.
  

I do wish I could drop my cell phone in a cradle and use the hands free mikes and speakers with my own cell phone.

I use Sony's discontinued StreeetMapUSA software and GPS dongle for decent directions on my laptop, though this really needs a passenger for turn-by-turn capabilities that my wife enjoys in her BMW.

But...

[dolo666]

A lot of good OnStar did that time, as the guy was mincemeat. OnStar just plays on the fear of being in an accident. While in many cases it would give you a bit of an edge to have OnStar, in most cases the traffic deaths are binary; you either live or you die. OnStar makes all their money on giving people a false sense of security. What would be a better investment, would be to give everyone on the road free driving lessons from really qualified people. Oh and idiot tests!

BS

[filtersweep]

9 out of 10 the check engine light is an EMISSIONS PROBLEM. They know the public is not THAT interested in dropping big bucks on non-vital repairs. Some cars show check engine if the gas cap is not entirely tightened. Can you imagine a CHECK EMISSIONS light??

Yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

They're called Americans.

It has nothing to do with points

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm so right that I'm laughing that you're trying to justify your moronity. You remind me of this guy at work who is just average but thinks he's bright. After you explain (patiently) to him about how stupid he's being, instead of trying to mend his ways and understand why he's dumb, he spends the rest of the day trying to prove me wrong.

Your name isn't "Rob", is it?

Re:It has nothing to do with points

[Anonymous Coward]

If points don't matter why did you spend time writing down five separate arguments? Probably in the hopes of winning someone over to your point of view by having the majority of the five arguments be correct. You failed (big time) and now would like to say that points don't matter. Taken to its logical conclusion you could make hundreds of statements about something trying to bring someone over to your point of view and not get one right but since "it has nothing to do with points" you can still claim to be correct. I'm not sure anyone cares about what you claim to be true in this kind of forum but they probably would like to know if you have some decent reasons why you'd like them to believe you. Stick with convincing arguments (like I did) instead of "I'm right because I said so" and you'll get much farther.

Re:It has nothing to do with points

[Anonymous Coward]

Still at it, eh?

Look. Just sit quietly in the corner.

Onstar isn't safety equipment.

Onstar has no effect on resale.

Further users by defintion have to test the system in order to use it, so therefore, it doesn't secretly "hurt" new users. It will just not work.

Replacment Onstar hardware can purchased cheaply ($20-25) at the junk yard if the 30 second "fix" doesn't work. But that would almost certainly be unnecessary, because you appear to be the only one in the western world convinced OnStar is important or desirable.

You're just wrong. The fact that you do research to prove you're right just makes your even wronger and more moronic. My head hurts just thinking about how dumb you are. God realizes what a mistake he make by allowing your (fortunately) rare genetic sequence to be made into a semi-intelligent protoplasmic goop. If you had a wife, my guess is she left you about 5 years ago out of utter contempt; turning lesbian just to be sure. Your children (poor goobers) are horrified at their genetic lineage.

Your name *is* Rob, isn't it?

Re:It has nothing to do with points

[politicalman]

You already lost trying to rely on the points you enumerated again above - restating doesn't help.
Wait a minute you said points don't count and you're trying to win on points again - looks like you can't even swallow your own b-llsh-t.
"you appear to be the only one in the western world convinced OnStar is important or desirable" well, from OnStar's web site...
On average, each month OnStar responds to:
700 air bag notifications
700 stolen vehicle locations
15,000 remote vehicle diagnostics
13,000 roadside assistance calls
28,000 remote door unlocks
260,000 routing calls
we can see that a lot of people are spending hundreds of dollars a year because they find the service desirable - another point lost.
"You're just wrong." - again, try putting in something to support your argument.
"The fact that you do research to prove you're right just makes your even wronger and more moronic." - yes - research is stupid why go with the facts when we can just make it up and pretend we're right?
"My head hurts" - don't overlook the possibility that it us just your hangover.
"God realizes what a mistake ..." you hear voices - okay - but don't assume they're God.
Again - all kidding aside - people should not modify safety equipment based on (potentially incorrect) information from the Internet unless they know they are going to keep their car or plan to fully disclose their hacking of the OnStar system to any future buyers. It is not a big deal - either don't crack the system or don't lie about it if you did.

Re:It has nothing to do with points

[Anonymous Coward]

Rob,

It isn't safety equipment; no more than a CB Radio is safety equipment. Nobody aside from you cares that OnStar is being modified. It doesn't affect the safety of the vehicle. The original guy who modified *clearly* doesn't care, and a 2nd owner would know it was modified when he/she tried to activate the system (you know, call OnStar and say "I want to pay you $400 to activate this useless hunk o'crap"), that it wouldn't work. He/she would know at that instant. They wouldn't wait until the system was supposed to work and say "Oh, damn, it didn't work!". Think it through. Go thorough a realistic scenario with someone not of the delta or gamma group. Seriously.

Frankly, if you're that worried about safety, don't buy a GM car in the first place.

As to "disclosing" it, most people will trade it in. Let the dealer deal with it; they're making the money, and on the offchance that someone wants to use it, they'd have to pay onstar, and during the course of the activation they would press the button, it wouldn't work, they'd go back to the dealer and say "Gee, Mr. Dealer, OnStar doesn't work". The dealer would then fix it, and everybody would be happy, especially OnStar because they just got $400 for Cell Phone service that can't be used like a Cell phone Service.

But all that's irrelevant because nobody uses or cares about OnStar, so its like saying "If a vampire comes to my house, I've got garlic and a cross". It starts from the mistaken notion there are vampires. Much like you've started from two mistaken impressions: (a) OnStar is safety equipment (b) Somebody cares about it. Both are demonstrably false.

N-O-B-O-D-Y C-A-R-E-S A-B-O-U-T O-N-S-T-A-R
and those who do buy new, and they're pathetic anyway because they went to a GM brand dealer to begin with, so maybe its better they crash and nobody knows about it.

Re:It has nothing to do with points

[Anonymous Coward]

Bags deploy and paramedics try to find me while I'm knocked out is somehow the same as a CB radio
(CB radios generally call out to truckers and don't retain messages)?
You are not awake - fix yourself and try again - it should take six months to a year but if you try really hard it may work.
Remember - reading does not imply comprehension - try to comprehend as a first step. Then move on to being reasonable (everyone in your life will like that idea). Then remove the hose connected from your ass to your head and less sh_t will get through (that is hard to do from some /.'s but try - you'll end up a better person for it).

Re:It has nothing to do with points

[Anonymous Coward]

Rob,

You're painting a fantastic set of scenarios that OnStar may help with.

IF you are in an accident
IF you are in an accident that has you seriously injured
IF you are in cell phone range (which is what OnStar is)
If you are near enough to medical help

If If If

Seems to me this is a service for bad drives who worry too much.

It certainly isn't safety equipment in the standard defintion, and altering it has no effect on the safety of the car, eithe real or perceived.

And I'm right...your wife *DID* leave you because your hideous character flaw.

Nice. But overall the service is a waste of money

No, moral is don't get married if you will cheat

[Anonymous Coward]

duh

Re:You area silly dork

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Every year people get hit by cars walking accross the street. Perhaps this will be YOUR year!

Subscriber base

[Anonymous Coward]

Interesting stats. Do you realize that most people will probably call OnStar because they have it; if we assume most people will call it once a month, many will call two.

That implies about 175,000 subscribers. Which, I guess is okay.

But more interesting is it implies the userbase is, well, I don't know how to put this kindly...clumsy?

Think about it...if there are 700 air-bags deployed, that means 700 serious accidents a month from a subscriber base of 130,000, which means somewhere close to 1% of their subscribers get into a serious accident once a month? I guess it makes sense why these people have the service; they're running things over left and right.

Run down the other numbers... .5% serious accidents .5% Stolen Cars
12% Have their cars "act up"
10% Break down utterly
20% lock their keys in their car
200% of them get lost frequently.

I'd love their mailing list; I'd' hate to be their insurance agent or tow-truck operator. These guys are amazing!

Re:Subscriber base

[politicalman]

You added the monthly call rates to imply something about the total subscribers?
Then you used those bad numbers to imply something about what happens to OnStar subscribers as a subset of the population?
I guess we should think of your initial calculations as suspect since the total number of subscribers is actually in the millions.
Many people probably just view OnStar as a safety feature and use the basic $16.95 service as a "just in case" so don't actually call the service on a regular basis.
The $34.95 premium service makes dinner reservations and gives directions - these people probably call a lot.

Re:Subscriber base

[Anonymous Coward]

Still, even if you assume there are twice as many people, it implies that people buy OnStar because they know things tend to "happen" when they drive a car.

I'll bet the Leisure World parking lot is the Mecca for this service. As to it being safety, yea, I can see it, but it seems mostly something to sell to people who find driving dangerous and scary. I guess that's a cool way to make money.

Re:You area silly dork

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it will happen, but certainly not by you; you're too stupid to drive.

Re:You area silly dork

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

Ahhhh... I see you lost your way from the FuckedCompany boards...

OT: Yuppie joke

[leonbrooks]

An American (this joke fails in Autralia, Britain and Japan unless the yuppie is also left-handed) YUP, driving home drunk, loses control and swipes a power pole, tearing his left arm off, then rolls the car and gets thrown clear (no seatbelt: top marks for brains, that man).

Tumbling to his feet, he amazes a passerby by flinching back and screaming "My BMW! My BMW!" The passerby coughs to draw attention to himself, and then asks, with a concerned expression: "You do realise that you arm's been torn off, don't you?"

The yuppie's eyes go wide, he screams "Yeeargh! My Rolex! My Rolex!" and turns to start casting about on the ground...

Amen, brother, amen!

[leonbrooks]

What would be a better investment, would be to give everyone on the road free driving lessons from really qualified people. Oh and idiot tests!

+10 Damn Straight

That and take your licence away forever on your second DUI offense.

Captain Goatse

[Anonymous Coward]

Captain Goatse is a group of his own, he will surely steal a lot of your FPs.

Just wait and see!

in japan..

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know much about OnStar, but in Japan most Taxis and newer cars come with a small flatscreen display and a service that shows your location in real-time.

You turn it turns. In pseudo-3D. In the Taxi's I've seen them do split-screen with navigation and TV or other video sources.

It's cool as hell.

Cell phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Do we know how to use the cell phone portion of on-star for hands free use? I mean use the radio sound and the built in mike to talk.

Roger