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GNOME/KDE Integration Gets A Few Boosts
Balinares writes "Great bunch of news on the Linux desktop unification front. After the unification of GTK and Qt themes that Slashdot already reported on, it is OpenOffice's turn to get the unified look treatment (screenshot 1, screenshot 2, screenshot 3).
In related news, the recently released QtGTK library allows to merge the Qt event loop with that of GTK. In other words, this means you can now easily use KDE's DCOP, IOslaves, and, last but not least, file dialogs, from inside your GTK apps. (Screenshot of this feature used in XMMS2: 1 2). It comes with a tutorial that explains the basics.
Finally, the new fuse_kio tool now makes it possible to use KDE's IOslaves directly at the filesystem level, from any Linux app. 2004 is really beginning well for all those of us who use Linux as their primary desktop!"
I can't wait for this to happen, I'm tired of there being so many desktops in linux. You can argue all you want about "it offers better choices for people." But the truth is, people don't want to choose, they want you to choose for them. Once they learn your system, then they can go in and tweak it for themselves.....I've always seen this as a drawback for Desktop Linux, some programs work in one window maker, others work in another. It's too hard for the average user.
What effect will the QT/GTK event loop intergration tech have on licensing? In other words, does your app have to be GPL to use this tech?
This is not wanted, because XMMS has always been the bastion of UI consistency. Also, while I am telling the truth, Mozilla makes any desktop look professional with its native menus and widgets. While I am still telling the truth, I am not always looking for functional replacements for Mozilla and XMMS that don't scream UGLY and awkward every time you see them.
~Darl
So what are we going to call this, KNOME? Or maybe GDE...
One of the screenshots look like a print dialog box. I wonder what the state of that is. Or is this a moot point, when cups has it all solved?
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
This is exactly what should be happening I think. We've seen some pretty good strides as far as interopability goes between KDE and GNOME. This brings us the unified desktop without having to sacrifice either one of these projects. It's good that KDE and GNOME can both go their own directions while still increasing interoperability.
This should satisfy the people who just want a consistent look on the desktop and then people who want choice.
It's really great seeing all these strides being made in making open source projects play well together. Now all I'd like see is some really user friendly clustering software for linux and I'd be a happy camper. Apple did it with xgrid why can't we do something similar on linux?
It's projects like these that show how much more productive Open Source is.
Proprietary companies may try to run other company's formats, but probably wouldn't be willing to say "oh here's how we do it, let's make it easier for people and merge the two for greater compatibility." Open Source companies can't (and I'd like to think wouldn't if they could) restrict compatibility for their own benefit.
For example: Microsoft comes out with special new features like "plug n' play" or some new way to install programs "faster" and "more easily," but RedHat releases an open source program, RPM, and allows anyone who will to use it.
Hooray for Open Source!
Esoteric reference.
OO.org has apparently been translated to Bork!
Great job to all those who worked on the integration! I have been worried that Gnome might overtake KDE as the popular desktop and KDE might then be subject to a smaller niche for the desktop. I'm glad that all the work that the KDE teams have done will continue to be used alongside Gnome.
http://github.com/gbook/nidb
That KDE people are creating technologies to be able to make Gnome apps compatible with them is a sign of Gnome's success. The same thing do BSD/SCO/etc when they trie to run Linux apps and the same thing did IBM when trying to run Windows apps in OS/2. Is the reaction of a platform to the growth and success of the competition.
Besides..
Someday one of Gnome and KDE will be obsolete. The remaining licence issues around Qt makes Gnome the obvious winner, as one cannot create commercial apps for Qt without paying fees.
Merging event loops so GTK and KDE components can interoperate is great. Now the wide variety of commercial applications for Linux et al can play nice with KDE!.
Oh, wait... doesn't KDE require a license for commercial applications... oh, never mind...they can't play nice together.
That's not xmms in the screenshot, it's beep, an XMMS fork ported to GTK2 and Pango/Freetype font rendering.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
Things should get even more interesting in the Free software arena with this news. Let's revisit this in July and see where we've gotten to.
Everyone click this link.
d a v e
"Hmmm...upgrades."
For you KDE users who aren't on Konqueror 24/7: don't forget to say thank-you.
UI consistency? Now, we have 4 prospreous OOo GUI for 2004: a Ximian Desktop theme, a Plastik theme, a Staroffice original theme, and a new 2.0 theme from the same group. GUIs unite!
Can somebody tell me how to type special characters in Linux with KDE or GNOME for chracters like ` ,AE, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, ' and many others? I know there is KCharSelect in KDE, but in windows, you just have to hold the `ALT' key down as you hit numeric keys say from 131 and so on to get many many of these characters...any suggestions?
Cb..
In related news, the recently released QtGTK library allows to merge the Qt event loop with that of GTK. In other words, this means you can now easily use KDE's DCOP, IOslaves, and, last but not least, file dialogs, from inside your GTK apps.
Won't this create some undesired mess? I'd rather like to have at least some visual diversity between them. After all, concurrent development inspires progress.
How the hell do they hope to sell any of this stuff if it's all encrypted in some Baltic lingo?!? ;)
I thought we can't use such intrusive naming anymore??
That is cool, but it looks like there is a bug in the software from the screenshots (1, 2, 3). It would appear the bug turns the text in the application windows into some foreign language.
Great ideas often receive violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstein
That document is "Introduction to IP Version 6" by Joseph Davies. You can download it here: http://www.microsoft.com/windows2000/techinfo/howi tworks/communications/nameadrmgmt/introipv6.asp
Cats and dogs are best friends.
Oil and water have mixed.
Java has become fast.
from Qt.
that now companys who don't want to fork over a licence fee to trolltech can build apps that integrate with KDE using gtk and no one would have to know or care? Or is there some kind of GPL conflict that I'm not seeing?
Why is it so hot? Where am I going? What am I doing in this handbasket?
You aren't actually developing anything with Qt, you're simply using GTK. With Qt you need to pay a per developer license to make a commercial application. Guess what? $(whatever) x 0 = 0.
I'm dying to have my gnome/kde apps respond to WM_PAINT. Really. I want them to paint and paint and paint, all day long, then I will WM_DESTROY them!!!
The commercial licensing issue is with Qt, not GTK+. Now you can simply develop a GTK app without worrying about either KDE or GNOME, and because you aren't actually developing ANYTHING with Qt, you don't have to pay anything for writing a KDE app in pure GTK, as I understand it.
Why Gnome/KDE insist in non-fs integrated virtual filesystems? Although their solution is platform independent, it is too 'opaque'. LUFS and similar stuff is the win :-b
The same OO.o integration work has been done with GTK+.
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
GTK apps using KDE file dialogs
GTK apps using the QT event loop and DCOP, etc.
All Linux apps able to use KIO Slaves
How come no KDE apps want to use the GLib event loop or the GTK file dialogs or Gnome VFS I wonder? (*wink wink*)
Just thought to mention a relevant tidbit: Gnome-VFS filesystems can also be mounted, but via the lufs userspace filesystem project.
So you're saying that it's a sign of Windows's success because people want to run Windows programs in Linux using some sort of emulation program.
So now it will look like the Windows XP Olive Green theme twice as fast?
The faster these two can work together the better off the community will be. Each one will have more software to choose from, and choice is good
The screenshot is of Beep Media Player. Beep is a GTK2 port of xmms and is not xmms2. Xmms2 is being developed seperatly with gtk2 support and also is said to have support for winamp 3 skins and is a completly new piece of software.
Does that mean one can finally create KDE applications without being forced to GPL them because of QT?
Yep, KDE uses complete Gnome applications where KDE apps suck, Evolution, Gimp... (*wink wink*)
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I'd be quite interested in using the GDK event loop for Krita because I could then with no hassle lift the bit of code that enables the Gimp to draw nice lines from the Gimp and import it in Krita. Now I will have to invent something similar myself :-).
While I appreciate the humor, all this has a reasonable explanation. This integration work in question is being done by KDE people, as part of a recent initiative to do something about KDE's reputation for only doing their own stuff, seemingly "starting over" (their own office suite, their own browser etc) where GNOME is adapting to existing technology. Basically, KDE is starting to show that it, too, can adapt existing technology.
This work is NOT being done by people who simply want more integration, but by people who want a more consistent KDE desktop. If the GNOME people want to integrate KDE apps so that they'll feel more like GNOME apps, they're free to do so.
"Oppression and harassment is a small price to pay to live in the land of the free." -- Montgomery Burns.
He wasn't trolling, he was asking a simple question.
Then perhaps he wasn't Trolling but rather Redundanting, given others' persistent Qt license queries in other threads.
Native-ish Gnome support for KATE!!!
I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
hmmmm, a consistent GTK app with a useless fileselector or an 'inconsistent' one with the KDE one? hard choice, isn't it? ;)
Still, I wish there would be drop-in fileselector replacements available for Gnome/KDE: both of their fileselectors could be so much more useful, heck, even my old Atari ST had replaceable ones (and some of them were awesome, they were basically mini-filemanagers).
If the gimp had a nice fileselector (with one-button-shortcuts to my pic directories, for example) how much nicer it would be!
-- the cake is a lie
because gnomes haven't developed them yet. As always, they will brush each and every one of the projects off as a "quick and dirty hack" and useless. 6 months later, they'll catch on that it's a good idea and make it the "correct" way (in C) and then will talk about how primitive KDE's innovations are compared to theirs.
//standsolid//
hooray for KDE hooray!
WTPOUAWYHTTOTWPA
What's the point of using acronyms when you have to type out the whole phrase anyways?
flamebait?
C'mon KDE Zealots, quit trying to supress free speach. You people are out of line. The points
he raises are fair game and on target.
Look, they have MS Word running natively on Linux. It even has the "Fail" option in the menu! ;)
Fail > Now
Fail > When file not saved
etc.
Timothy, you should wipe clean ur geeky glasses and see it wasn't xmms2 you had on your screenshot ... it is beep-media-player (bmp -> http://beepmp.sourceforge.net).
If u wanna lie to general public next time. Make sure you dont provide the evidence which people can see you were lying...
Except that there is no need to buy a license for using Gtk and the GNOME libraries.
Save money and don't develop for Qt/KDE =)
True story.
Yes, I'm sure that standards will speed up development.
I mean, just look at all the applications that are springing up around the Atom and FOAF frameworks... oh wait, people are just whining about the standards and no one is developing applications...
True story.
Well, on _MY_ linux keyboard (which is set to Brazilian Portuguese, pt_BR):
/. translates those special keys I mentioned to the dull "1/2", but you get the idea, I hope).
1/2, 3/4 and 1/4 are typed by holding Alt Gr+Shift and 2, 3 and 4 keys, respectively. Try that in your keyboard...
I can't type the AE ligature, maybe you need a Swedish keyboard layout or something.
Please note that most word processor software have an "insert special character" function.
(Well,
So at what point would a troll be considered funny? I thought this post was pretty hi-larious...
True story.
on my keyboard, it is alt-4 1/4, alt-5 1/2 and alt-6 3/4. ae is done with alt A.
The right alt key is needed, which is labelled alt-gr on some keyboards. The keyboard must be configured to use an 'international' layout, I think it is called "us_intl" or something like that.
Call it a troll if you must but the way trolltech is handling their user licensing is clearly a setup for a "SCO-like" legal fiasco at some point in the future.
And the way all the TrollTech apologists keep claiming "TrollTech has the right to..." (blah,blah,blah)...yes, they have these "rights", but let's not forget the central issue--their shit is running on truly free software, unambiguously free software, whether for commerical, public or private use. TrollTech is the one playing games, playing fast and loose with everyone else's work. It's not the other way around.
Then there's always the usual posts about $1550 per developer, per year of support, per platform...is such a great deal for such a product! Sorry, I've used it, and it's not really that earth shattering, and those prices are a great deal for...TrollTech, and TrollTech alone.
Sure it's easy to get copies of everything you need on Linux. Now try and do it on windows--it's all screwy, you need Windows development software, you need to get a license from TrollTech, etc.--same for the other platforms...OSX,Solaris,IRIX...this is "free, GPL software"? What a pathetic claim.
Cheap for commercial use? $1550 per year, per developer, per platform, is cheap? And if they're developing under windows Visual Studio is recommended, as well? Doesn't sound so cheap.
Great toolkit? The integration between Qt and KDE is actually kind of weak. Try importing private includes and libraries...it's actually possible to create aliased objects and completely confuse the debugger. Qt and Kde projects overlap on a lot of functionality, duplicated objects...it's a mess. What exactly should we use? Now, under Linux, we mix in GTK...that really simplifies things. Under windows, there is probably a horrendous mix of functionality as well. Some toolkit.
The spread of the Qt libs, the continued mixing of this ambiguously licensed product with truly free software, is going to come back and haunt Linux developers at some point in the future. TrollTech is just sitting back and biding their time, claiming it's cheap for commercial use (not really) claiming it's free for GPL use (not really) claiming it's a great toolkit (not really).
Once all this crap is mixed in with truly free code, and entrenched in several major US corporations, you can just about guarantee the ghost or Daryl McBride with be sending out letters from the TrollTech legal department, all the same pumping and dumping, all the same FUD, etc.
Does this move strike you as pointless? What's wrong with having applications built with different toolkits? After all, on Windows there are some applications built with VB, others built with Delphi, and so on.
The fact is, it _is_ a pointless move from a Linux user's point of view. But to Trolltech, it has a point...
This is simply a continuation of Trolltech's plan to have everything tied back to Qt, such that Qt becomes an indespensible and integral part of the Linux desltop.
Then, since Qt is GPL'd, rather than LGPL'd, all commercial developers for the Linux desktop will be forced to use Trolltech's proprietary license for Qt.
Thus, Trolltech would gain a Microsoft-like lock-in on all commercial development for Linux.
And it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Microsoft is pulling the strings.
The truth is that Qt is _not_ an indespensible and integral part of the Linux. For example, there is not a single Qt-based application on my Linux desktop, yet I have every application I need -- I can do more on my Linux desktop than I ever used to be able to do with Windows.
Hopefully people will just start using a real GNOME application like Rhythmbox instead. I've found it to be quite handy as long as you tagged your music properly when you ripped it from your legally-acquired CDs. Correct tagging does not seem to be a common practice on file sharing networks (or so I've heard).
True story.
Yes, and have you noticed that it is the KDE developers who keep trying to make this "integration" happen?
It's just a Trolltech lock-in sceme.
The idea is to make all GTK/Linux applications dependent on Qt.
I don't know why that was modded funny, he's right. I believe the name has already been changed in KDE CVS to IOIndenturedServants, IOBlackmailees or something like that.
True story.
GIMP isn't really a GNOME-app AFAIK. Yes, it uses GTK+, no that does not make it in to a GNOME-app. And there are LOTS and LOTS of kick-ass KDE-apps (for example Konqueror, Kmail, Kdevelop, Quanta, K3B etc. etc.), so your claim that "GNOME-apps rule, KDE-apps suck!" is just plain ignorant.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Oops, I guess some of the moderators use KDE. I guess I'll just have to let the text do a little deconstruction on itself to show how KDE is, in fact, superior.
True story.
Actually, about a year ago there was a project that used gnome-vfs to do the same thing as fuse did. Except no-one really cared about it.
Sven, one of the lead GIMP developers has stated in no uncertain terms that the GIMP is not a Gnome application and that it has nothing to do with Gnome.
Let's hope this ioslave stuff is GPL-free, else it would be useless.
So if nobody cared enough to integrate the KDE dialogs into GTK, doesn't that indicate that the people using GTK/Gnome apps are happy with the way things are (ie... they have a consistant desktop already perhaps?) more than anything else?
imagine a beowulf cluster of these!!!
if you can read this, good, because i sure cant
Most likely. Several GTK apps (Gimp, Evolution, Inkspace, notably) are better than their KDE counterparts. On the other hand, it also indicates another thing. If GTK+/GNOME apps are better, why do KDE users persist in using KDE? It's not like there is any real barrier to them switching (they run on the same platform, and are free). It most likely indicates that KDE users do not like GNOME as a platform, its lack of advanced technology, and its ultra-simplistic mindset.
A deep unwavering belief is a sure sign you're missing something...
I really don't think it's good to have both systems around for several reasons.
1. They don't use the same Human Interface Guidelines. That's FAR FAR more important that looks.
2. Excessive waste of HD space.
3. On a personal level. I like gnome, I don't want my apps behave or look like KDE. If I did I'd be using KDE. Also programming GNOME is easier with all the language bindings.
Just like Amiga, circa 1993! Yay!
This is NOT sarcasm, it just annoys me how long it's taken the "mainstream" (linux) to catch up...
Common guys...
Qt is _not_ GPL:d. You do _not_ have to GPL your app if you make it a KDE/Qt app.
Qt is double licensed, you choose the GPL _or_ the QPL. This means you can license your app as GPL, BSD, Artistic license etc.
Check the Trolltech homepage.
And this piece of news does not change _any_ licensing issues with GTK+ apps.
as part of a recent initiative to do something about KDE's reputation for only doing their own stuff, seemingly "starting over" (their own office suite, their own browser etc)
KOffice and Konqueror were started long before OpenOffice and Mozilla became open source.
-- Repeat with me: "There is no right to profits".
So, why are more apps written using GTK/Gnome? I don't know. FWIW I feel the KDE framework is better too, but ultimately they are both pretty good. In particular GTK stands on its own more than Qt does on the Linux desktop - for apps that wish to remain desktop neutral it seems a more natural choice (and to be honest GTK vs Qt is a pretty even match, you can argue about the corner cases all day but I'd say they're just as good as each other).
Whenever I read the KDE API docs I can't help thinking what a shame it is - if the original developers had cared more about licensing we'd probably only have one desktop, and everybody would use these great frameworks. There'd be no problems with desktop neutrality, no need to slowly reinvent everything in order to make it desktop neutral and so on.
A lesson learned hard, and one I hope future developers will respect..... those who don't take community concerns over platforms seriously can seriously damage things.
> 2004 is really beginning well for all those of
> us who use Linux as their primary desktop!"
Yes. Because GNOME and KDE only run on Linux, don't they?
Please, a little credit to the folk who right proper, portable code, and to those who port it.
Great! Now both can look equally ugly. Why doesent people use Xlib? Much better than those bloated and ugly betmoth toolkits.
GAAH! MY PRINTER IS ON FIRE!!! PUT IT OUT! PUT IT OUT!
from your kick-ass apps: i admit k3b is kick-ass except interface, which could use a little more polish
kdevelop i don't use so it wouldn't be fair of me to judge, but others just aren't so kick-ass as you would wish, just mostly unprofessional
GNOME-apps rule, KDE-apps suck!
nope, i never claimed that. scribus is a qt app and it rocks. dcgui-qt is still the best dc client. k3b is still the best app for linux burning, except that I find my self using burn:// in nautilus more and more, it just works (at least for files, for audio I'm still waiting for coaster architect)
problem with kde is that still aims to geeks, meaning zillion buttons with preferences bloated with tabs having option to configure anything but still do very little. kwrite is a nice sample of that. simple editor, which looks confusing. and never mind how geekish i am, i'm finding my self more and more in time shortage, so i just wan't clean interface from start. i won't say that kde couldn't be cleaned up with setting preferences, IT CAN BE (AND EVEN VERY NICE), but i just don't wanna bother, DE either works from start or not. second thing is that i find my self setting up more and more linux desktops, while in gnome everything is set up for every average joe, kde shows too much. so, did i said that kde is pain in the ass: YES.
try comparing similiar products
kmail - evolution
kwrite - abiword
kspread - gnumeric
konqueror - epiphany
kcontrol - gnome control center
karbon14 - inkscape
kde menu layout - gnome menu layout
i would say kdevelop - anjuta but as i said i don't use kdevelop so it wouldn't be right
in every case gnome or gtk software was more polished in interface, more directed to its usage and simpler to use
gimp is gtk+ yes, but still gtk+ is heart of gnome
difference is just the engine dependancy just as qt is for kde
Signature Pro version 1.13.2-3 release 83.5 beta3try7 after-breakfast edition
I think that all the Translate-o-matics should be merged. But KDE isn't hated enough to have one, so behold the Gnome-translate-o-matic 2004!
:Gnome has a new web browser
Gnome is a rival to KDE, the popular collection
of programs for Linux and freinds. Unfortunatley, ever since Gnome 2.4 (and the BETA 2.5) was released, I have found more and more Zealots who MUST advocate it at every possible moment. Here are some of their most common claims and what they REALLY MEAN.
Claim : Unlike KDE, Gnome is free
Translation : GPL is freerer than LGPL. LGPL allows corporations like Novell
and Sun to have propeitry forks and lock away their changes from the user. Now
that Novell has taken over Ximian you can expect Gnome to get put under
corpirate lock. With KDE you have the choice, you either PAY UP or pay with
your source code. Most companies agree, the majority of commerical software for Linux is written in Motif and Qt, and NOT GTK. Apart from Ximian's desktop, there is no major product using GTK.
Claim : Nautilus is much better than konqueror.
Wrong, if your using nautilus for anything more than a simple finder clone you
can forget it. No split screen, no ioslaves (gnome-vfs can't compare, sorry) and forget about being able to
have a decent file dialog, not to forget that it is as unstable as hell and is
STILL slow on >3 Ghz machines. The latest version decided to copy Windows 95, complete with a my computer icon on the desktop.
Claim : Gnome is easier to use than KDE
Yep, nothing like using gconf-editor to edit all except the most trivial of
settings. Want tear off menus? Want a useable file dialog? You won't find it
here. Gnome was a lot more usable back in the 1.4 series, before sun came along with their usabillity "study".
Claim : Gnome has eye candy
Yes, my pirated Win32 fonts with the patent infringing font renderer. Bit
stream vera sans looks like Tahoma put through a shreadder! Of course I still
reboot into windows to print using "Comic Sans MS. Gnome themes don't even let you change the colour scheme. Looking at sites like art.gnome.org you will see that the majority of themes are the same one in different colours!
Claim : Gnome is not ugly like KDE
I am too stupid to realise that the look of KDE can be changed by going to the Appearence and themes section in KDE, not to mention that KDE has more themes wrote for it. Popular themes such as Keramik, Liquid, dotNET, Plastik and Alloy were wrote for KDE first, but somebody wrote a crappy port of it on art.gnome.org, so Gnome must be good.
Claim
Yawb! Along with Galeon, mozilla, thunderbird, konqueror, atlantis, lynx,
netscape and w3m. Yes I need another browser! Not to mention that its got a
religiously offensive name and it dosen't allow bookmark folders. It also
crashes like a crazy! Apple chose khtml for a REASON! its stable and light! Epiphany is also a faliure, it has gone through 6 major bug fixes and none of the major distrobutions use it because they stick with decent browsers.
Claim : Gnome is more popular than KDE
Despite the fact that the only mainstream Gnome based distro has been EOL'd,
and all the newbie distros such as Mangadrake, Lindoze, $u$E, Lycoris,
Xandroze, Gentoo use kde default, bruce perens decided to make a gnome based distro and everybody hated it because KDE wasn't in it.
Klaim : You KDE guys must be sick of the K
Our G's and monkeys are SO MUCH better, gedit, glib, gconf, bobono, ghex,
gless, same-gnome, gstreamer.
Claim : Gnome has multimedia framework
Its a kludge of esd combined with broken xine libraries. No wonder it crashes
all the time and dosen't work on 95% of video files. But we have Rhythmbox, a cheesy Itune clone using it, so it rules!
Zealot : My Gnome work station.....
My 2Ghz G5 box my mum bought for me from PC w
It can be, if you know how to find it. Most higher-class sharing systems (suprnova/bittorrent, directconnect, soulseek, etc.) have files that are almost exclusively well-tagged. Even with lower-class systems like KaZaA, you just have to search for the album you want in the "album" field, and the only results that will show are the well-tagged ones (or so I've heard).
It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
He's attempting to be even-handed, but, instead, is just stupid. Granted -- I'm not taking the time to actually read his unbalanced whine, but right off the bat, I see one out-and-out lie: "Apart from Ximian's desktop, there is no major product using GTK."
Ummm... would the GIMP count as a major product? How 'bout GNUCash?
Let's face it: this guy's a bozo. And, yeah, a coward -- which is the reason he sits there, makes all these amazing, bizarre claims, with nothing to back them up, and posts as an AC. Granted: I think Miguel's ego could drop a notch or two, and I definitely think the KDE developer community is more interested in harmony than... well, Miguel is. [Most of the GTK/Gnome developers are pretty reasonable folk, from what I've seen.]
Do I like GTK/Gnome more? Slightly -- or, perhaps I should say that I don't like being tied to a WM, and I like a panel, and Gnome's does a fine job. Does either "Suck"? Ummm... no. Stupid people who write stupid, long-winded rants "suck." People who attempt, instead, to inform, in an objective, open manner, OTOH, can actually help the OSS community AS A WHOLE, instead of picking sides, and sniping at those who disagree. Frankly, I'm -glad- there are two main competing libraries/environments: competition is good. Just look at Windows if you don't believe me. If either were the clear winner, stagnation would be the result. As it is, the developers are kept on their toes, and -- welcome to OSS -- can freely pilfer ideas from each other without fear of (say) patent reprisals.
Well, 'nuff for now: I'd hate to become as long-winded as the schmuck I'm criticizing...
------
Does anyone know if a closed-software maker is violating the GPL if it has originally linked to an LGPL library (legal), which has an independently created GPL analogue?
If not, then isn't it a matter of a LD_PRELOAD to transfer all or many GTK calls into QT calls, where the preloaded library is fully GPL, and gtk+ software was originally linked to the LGPL original gtk?
Everyone knows the best acronym would be GNUDE.
Considering how many tens of thousands of people are using Sawfish and Gnome
You and your friends != tens of thousands of people.
I really don't understand this 'licensing issue' thing. I could say the same about GTK, where they are using the 'Lesser' GPL: if only the GTK people had taken an interest in the licenses, perhaps we wouldn't be in the mess we are in today.
In my world GPL protects free IP better than LGPL, and proprietary better protects proprietary IP than LGPL. Can you, or any other of your mindset, please explain why LGPL is a better freesoftware license than GPL, and why LGPL is better for proprietary vendors than a 'proprietary' license?
As for why I choose KDE, it is because it is, IMO, more powerful, easier to use, better integrated, more professional looking, and required no understanding of UNIX while I was still transitioning.
Overall I prefer the KDE apps, but regularly use two big Gnome apps: Gimp and sodipodi. I used to use Evolution too because it may me feel at home when I first switched from Windows, but I now far prefer KMail, and would use Kontact if I needed the groupware stuff.
I think Gnome is pretty cool, and I will definitely give it a serious try when it has matured a little more. The Gnome people always talk about it being easier to use, but that is only true in theory. It just isn't insulated well enough from UNIX yet, and requires you to know things like where your home directory is, or where devices might be found, and how you mount and unmount them, how to configure windows file sharing, etc.
That is correct, however, GTK/GNOME is catching up - but really, I don't give a f*ck. I don't use a single proprietary app these days. Proprietary vendors can choose whatever toolkit they please and that will suit me just fine.
With the exception of games of course. I've bought a bunch of native Linux games, and it's about a 25/25/50 split between GTK/KDE/Neither. As long as they don't depend on either entire DE, I'm happy.
Kontact?
KMail is a very seriousl mail client, and you provide no evidence to the contrary.
KMail is(er.. was) possibly the worst core KDE application, IMO. I have used it pleny of times, and it always does something unexpected(deleting mail, crashes, etc.). I also find the interface to be rather buggy and quirky. The last version I used was much better, and that was several months ago, so I assume it is pretty stable now.
But what I think the other guy was getting at is that it lacks the huge number of features of most "modern" email clients. Personally, I use mutt these days, with vim as my pager and editor(you just can't beat that).
Ok, real corrections...
"Phoenix and Thunderbird - GTK"
Neither are GTK+ apps
False. Both use many GTK widgets now. Look at the buttons, text entry boxes, etc. Still not GTK menus though...
However, there are a number of excellent GTK apps that use the Mozilla rendering engine - and gecko is without a doubt the absolute best rendering engine around today.
"OpenOffice.org - Now native GTK planned for next release"
No, a GUI-independent framework is planned for next release.
No, he was correct. Ximian has been working with OO.o, and they have implemented GTK for nearly the entire app(using the GUI-independent framework? I don't know... but it is there).
I really wish users of both DEs would STFU sometimes. KDE did this, GNOME did that, bleh - just STFU. Support the interoperability efforts and STFU. Assholes...
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
Stop crying and stop using KDE apps. There you are. Is baby okay now?
> I don't want my apps behave or look like KDE. If I did I'd be using KDE.
Well. It must be your lucky day! This work is *only* for KDE users who want better integrated non KDE apps. There has been a ton of recent integration announcements for KDE users, but none yet for Gnome people, so you may be safe yet.
I really don't understand that logic. In fact, for system facilities, libraries, etc, I think the LGPL makes more sense. If a programmer wants to write a proprietary GTK or QT app it should be able to access all the system level facilities that the respective GNOME and KDE environments offer. Now it shouldn't be able to pull the code of a competing free software project into it with out having to give back. In short, if you are providing an open service/API or other applications to use, I personally dont' think it's right to discriminate as to what apps can use the service. Them actually rolling your code into their package though is a different matter. Kernel = GPL libraries = LGPL apps = GPL (or proprietary if you really want to) The app writer should be able to make that choice.
----- Question authority, but not ours. Hate the man, but we're not him.
Well, you could say kdevelop - anjuta, except you would have to say kdevelop is beter ;-)
BTW: kwrite is not a word processor.
Mr Torvalds, tear down this wall!
My guess is this: gtk+ is pure C while Qt is C++. Sure, there are C bindings available for Qt, but it's Not the Same Thing. I'm not much of a language bigot: I write (poorly) in C, python, Scheme, perl, Common Lisp and shell, but something's just not right about C++.
I agree, though: it would have been nice had the KDE guys been more practical from the get-go. They've a lot of good ideas (although the pioneer the wm-and-desktop combo, which sucks bigtime IMHO). A lot of their architecture is pretty impressive, but it also just doesn't feel right from a Unix perspective, if that makes sense.
GIMP predates Gnome though; GIMP even predates Gtk+ to some degree as Gtk+ was designed out of GIMP's needs.
:-)
... FVWM (not).
Anyone else remember those days?
Ahh
Current versions of The GIMP may or may not use Gnome features at this point beyond the simple Gtk+ reliance, but I'm not sure of that.
- Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
My point is not that KDE is perfect, but rather that both have some rather large problems right now. KDE's Control Center is a mess mostly because it's so poorly organized, but I feel that Gnome's solution to this particular problem is wrong headed (removing the options from the dialogs, and hiding them in a MS Windows registry-style configuration system)
I used up all my sick days, so I'm calling in dead.
Anyone else noticed that pro-gnome posts tend to get moderated Troll but pro-kde ones always get Insightful? Pray, why does this happen?
we discovered a new way to think.
With choice comes confusion. For a Linux desktop distribution to be widely sucessful it will need to eliminate the myriad of duplications and similar applications. Go head to head with M$'s core suite of apps and tools.
Choice is fine for the geeks and techies.
Personally, I wish that there was only one outstanding GUI. Only one outstanding Office Suite etc. Then, and only then, will we start to see real widespread Linux adoption by end-users. I regret that the big Linux distros (RH and SuSe) now seem to be solely focused on corporate server market. This is where Linux is really headed and while this remains so it will be to the detriment of desktop adoption.
More realistic comparison would be Kontact - Evolution.
I guess you mean Kword - Abiword?
I prefer Konqueror. How well does Epiphany handle filemanagament? Now very well eh? That's what I thought...
I think Kcontrol is superior. It lets me tweak the desktop EXACTLY the way I want to.
Maye GNOME is more gung-ho when it comes to simplicity of use. But they do that at the expense of configurability. Sorry, but I prefer KDE's approach. And I have exactly ZERO problems with KDE and it's ease of use. Just because you can tweak it as much as you want does not mean that it's hard to use.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
Yeah, I notice the "direction". It's same it has always been, and very simple one: KDE people are simply louder.
All Linux apps able to use KIO Slaves
GNOME VFS has been usable to all Linux app trough LUFS for over YEAR, now KDE folks finally manage something similar and they start yelling about it like the world is about to end.
Of course, this was stupid then - and is still stupid with KIO, totally backwards. KIO and GNOME VFS should use the generic LUFS/FUSE, and not otherway around.
Also, this OO.o unification thing was developed by a RedHat employee for GTK, there is also a win32 version. KDE zealots obviously didn't bother to mention anything about that in the article, nah, they want it to seem like they did it and are only ones to have it.
This work has been talked about for years and years, but I think it's amusing that we're seeing all this improvement right after userlinux announced they would not be using KDE because GNOME and KDE don't integrate, and they don't like the Qt license. The KDE developers can't do anything about the license (which is GPL already, so give it a rest please people), but they can do something about the integration. And frankly, it was damn time they did something. The division between GNOME and KDE was/is the most annoying thing about the two desktops. If they can bridge that gap, it will improve the quality of linux as a desktop radically. (Yes, I am aware of freedesktop.org and that it predates userlinux, I am also aware that freedesktop.org did mostly low-level integration, unlike the very high-level integration we're seeing now.)
Developing for GTK/GNOME is only cheaper if your time is not worth anything. We're talking about a $3000 license (per developer). You'd have to be making an awfully small project not to earn that back in manhours.
The only place where a license would effectively make a Qt project too expensive would be if it was open source. But if it is open source, you don't have to buy a license. This GTK-is-free thing is a strawman to allow Qt/KDE haters to dismiss it. Show me one real business that chose GTK instead of Qt because of cost (political reasons don't count), and I'll shut up, but until then, stop spreading FUD.
It uses a lot of the same lower-level support libraries as Gnome stuff, but it really is just a particularly advanced GTK application.
Wouldn't it be better for everyone if we just sat down and decided which desktop was best, then all used it and just forgot about the other?
Honestly, why can't everyone just get along?
Ummm... would the GIMP count as a major product? How 'bout GNUCash?
It's intended as a rebuttal to the assertion that proprietary software vendors prefer GTK+ because of the license. Last time I checked, neither the GIMP nor GNUCash were proprietary.
Yeah, the OP did go slightly overboard, but it's very annoying that whenever KDE or GNOME are mentioned, the GNOME zealots harp on about irrelevant issues, aren't at all familiar with what KDE can do, or simply lie. I've noticed a distinct difference between the two camps - the KDE people usually say accurate, truthful things about both desktop environments.
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:)
78 characters
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- - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
So if something is broke because of their decisions they would vastly prefer that no such options are present.
That's why religions exists. If something is wrong there is someone else to blame.
And in that sense, yes, sometimes, people don't want to choose, they want you to choose for them.
Only when options are meaningless, like desktop themes, or colors, they want choice.
We are Turing O-Machines. The Oracle is out there.