Announcing Cooperative Linux

evilmf writes "Well... I was on my daily "relaxing" read of the LKML when I've found an interesting announce about "Cooperative Linux", in this message from Dan Aloni. It allows you to run Linux on an unmodified Win2000/XP system, just launching another app. Dan says that Cooperative Linux is 'is stable enough (on some common hardware configurations) for running a fully functional KNOPPIX/Debian system on Windows,' and provides some screenshots in the project homepage."

Comments

Cool

[slash-tard]

Now the stability, Awesome user interface of windows, and games combined with the myriad of useful GNU/Linux apps!

Re:Cool

[LittleDan]

Stability and awesome user interface in Windows? The lack of those were the main reasons I switched to Linux.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I think it's meant to be modded +5 Funny.

Re:Cool

[nial-in-a-box]

The Windows user interface may not be perfect, but I frankly think that it is in many ways better than most if not all open source GUIs. This is not saying that there never will be a better open source GUI. This is also not saying that there are many flaws in the Windows GUI. I'm just saying that Microsoft has, in fact, invested considerible time, effort, and money (more or less) in making a decent, adequately consistent user interface. I have been amazed by developments over the last few years as far as with KDE and Gnome interfaces, but they still leave much to be desired. Most of what is missing is not just in how a window border looks or how many buttons are present, but actual functionality. Perhaps the one thing Windows does much better than Linux is graphical file management. Windows/Internet Explorer provides a reasonable interface to manage files, get previews, sort, find, etc. KDE and Gnome both try to provide these same services, but they are for the most part half baked. I know that a lot of people are working hard on this stuff, and it gets better everyday, but let's not just call open source GUI better than Microsoft GUI without actually thinking about it. It's fine to be loyal to something, but don't make claims unless they can be backed.

Re:Cool

[BoldAC]

What?

The power of this is that it will allow people to try and experience linux without complicated duel-booting or format/installing.

More and more people started using linux when bootable stand-alone versions were developed. This will support this boost many times over.

Think about it. Hack kiddies hear that linux is the way to go. They install it over/within windows... and god forbid, actually realize that linux is a great tool. When I was growing up, I had to limp along with my OS-of-the-day box while my dad was protective of his little system. With this system, future linux kiddies and parents can live in harmony.

If people believe that they can do their daily activities with their linux programs, then a proportion of these will dump the windows portion to get the performance boost.

This allows users to ease into linux.

Brillant.

AC

Re:Cool

[MrBlue VT]

You can already run many, many apps that were written for linux by using Cygwin. As long as the program is userspace, it can usually just be compiled for cygwin. This has the advantage of producing a windows binary and is pretty speedy. I've got KDE and all its applications running just great in cygwin on a Windows 2000 platform. They have XFree86 that you can use, but since I already owned a copy of Exceed, I can just use that.

Re:Cool

[neko9]

and shutdown under "start" menu is logic? please... even xp is still rough around the edges. it's matter of taste. i use fluxbox. kde and gnome are too much bloated. like windows :-)

Re:Cool

[bhtooefr]

Heh, like my parents would have let me do that. There was a product called WinLinux that would install on a 9x/ME system, and let you reboot into DOS mode and start it. They wouldn't let me install it because they were afraid it would mess things up. I threatened them with a RedHat 8 CD set I had just burned... didn't work.

Re:Cool

[jhunsake]

What kind of parents did you people grow up? Did they beat you or something? I would have just done and told them after the fact. Nah, I wouldn't have told them at all.

Re:Cool

[BoldAC]

Thus the joy of this installation. You just tell them that it's a program. "Program" sounds so much nicer than "OS."

If they won't let you do that... then you have to go old school. You must convince your parents that they need a newer and better system so you can run the Maestro java simulation to enjoy and learn from the current Mars experience. Suggestions like "I wanna be an astronaut, dad!" work well.

After they buy their new screaming P4 system, you take the old system and abuse the hell out of it installing every version of linux that you can find. (Which, of course, will get you closer to working with NASA than playing with the mastro software...)

Good luck.

AC

Re:Cool

[secondsun]

Perhaps the one thing Windows does much better than Linux is graphical file management.

Someone has never tried to open an ftp (forget sftp, ip lookups of samba shares, etc) site in explorer.exe.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Your parents are morons, and you will be just like them.

Re:Cool

[Slowtreme]

What's old is new again.

Didn't they try a distro once called WINUX? Seems the site is gone, but it was a linux distro that ran on NTFS, you launched it with a windows shortcut. I remember installing it once. Anyone else remember it? You can find archived discussions about it on Google.

Re:Cool

[TheSpoom]

I am currently downloading this. The lack of documentation is a bit annoying, but hopefully it should compile well.

This is, as far as I can tell, a MUCH better idea than the MS Virtual PC image we were supposed to download from our school's server for use in our C++ course (which we are basing in Linux, we're banned from using .NET for it, which I think is pretty cool).

It'll also be my first time compiling the kernel (though a slightly older version), which should be interesting as well. I hope this project goes along well. :^)

Re:Cool

[swordboy]

Think of it this way:

Eventually, someone will come up with a kick-ass IDE for developers to write once, run anywhere. A linux application will merely need a DirectLinux layer to run under Windows. As hardware gets faster and faster, the Linux layer will become seamless. The world will be without Windows and we'll all live happily ever after.

This is huge for Linux. Now if we could get the desktop situation sorted out, we can start implmenting Linux on the desktop.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Since you don't start your computer from the "start" menu perhaps it doesn't mean what you think it means.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of parents did you people grow up?

Sounds like his parents did a better job of teaching him ethics than yours did. I hope you're not a sysadmin with real users or you've grown up since then.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Riiiight. We're talking about a fucking computer here, not fucking your sister in the ass.

Re:Cool

[nial-in-a-box]

I'm in danger of going off-topic here, but I have to say that it's better to do some basic things that most everyone needs fairly well than to do many things in a mediocre fashion. Windows graphical FTP is pretty bad, but it makes it easier for the average user who doesn't care about permissions on a download server.

Re:Cool

[ArsonPanda]

duel-booting?
So, you press the power button and whatever OSs are installed on your system fight to the death to see which one gets to boot? I like it. Does it have an interactive stat up mode too? I can see it now, on old hardware it would be a 2d mortal combat type thing, and on my new opteron server it would have DOA 3d thing going on. The only question is which charicter do you use for windows, and which for linux?

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

I fear that Linux is becoming a server/productivity suite for MS Windows ;-)

Re:Cool

[flxkid]

A linux application will merely need a DirectLinux layer to run under Windows

Why can't it be a windows application just needing a DirectWindows layer to run on Linux...

Re:Cool

[bhtooefr]

Actually, that's almost what I did, except it was a Celeron, and the old box got RedsHat, which just plain didn't work, Win2K, and a SuSE 8.2 LiveEval. It was the server for my site for several months (which reminds me, I need to figure out what I'm going to do, as this was going to be my server, but I've made it into a workstation.

BTW, they didn't even want me to install OPERA (the web browser!) on there! They forced me to use Internet Explorer! They were afraid it would mess it up. After all, it was Windows 98 SE, and every time you install something, it fucks up (especially considering it was a Who-let-one (fudge)Packered pre-install).

Re:Cool

[bhtooefr]

BTW, they got the new one because the stock HP PSU failed. I got an identical replacement used in a somewhat less dusty environment, but I could have ordered one in for $25, and they paid $500 for a rig with WinXP Home, a Celeron 2.0GHz, 256MB RAM (don't know the type), 40GB Maxtor HDD, DVD-ROM drive, and throwing over the old CD-RW and 8.4GB HDD, so I had to get a new hard drive too.

Re:Cool

[bhtooefr]

Actually, I did load a bunch of stuff on there. I think I hid it in C:\Program Files\Microsoft Games\Fs2000\Temp\ (yes, I know that's a fake directory - however, Temp is an inconspicuous(sp?) name - after all, I hide stuff on a *nix system in /home/bhtooefr/.settings (no app would put anything there, so it's free game)...

Re:Cool

[Spy Hunter]

I think the promise of this approach may strech beyond people trying out Linux to helping people install Linux alongside Windows. I can imagine a new Linux install process that doesn't require booting from a disk or CD. Instead you download a giant executable which starts a coLinux system. Once it is running it can cooperate with part of the installer still running as a Windows process to resize the main Windows partition, create a Linux partition, and install Linux there. (I think it's possible in Windows to resize an NTFS partition online, correct me if I'm wrong though...) It could also take network and other hardware settings directly from the running Windows installation. After it's done, it could simply install its own bootloader, and then reinitialize all the devices and take over the system. That would be really cool.

Re:Cool

[Afrosheen]

Judging by your mod points, there are some rich crack dealers on the street right now.

Explorer is horrible at doing what it should do (besides surfing the web which it doesn't do right either thanks to flubbed standards). It can't do tabbed browsing (konqueror), you can't split the window into multiple frames to make ftp'ing and file management easier (konqueror), if you visit a website you can't go recursively up the website's root tree (konqueror) among many other things.

I guess it's not really fair since windows is so far behind at this point. MacOS and KDE both support better features for file management and web browsing than Explorer does. Just wait until Longhorn is out I guess, by then Microsoft will have reaped the other apps' harvests and make it look new by painting it a different color.

By the way, you make alot of suppositions but have zero facts backing you up. Your opinion is pure conjecture.

Re:Cool

[Awptimus Prime]

I think he was talking about the Windows GUI, named Explorer. Not Internet Exploder. They sound the same, but do different things.

Re:Cool

[nial-in-a-box]

You're right, I don't really support what I have said here with any facts, but rather speak from my personal experience. I don't think I am unreasonable if I say that, in their current incarnation, frames and tabs in web and file browsing are not needed nor desired by the vast majority of users. Most people just want to get things done, and they want it to be simple. I don't think anyone has it right yet, and I do like what I see elsewhere. I use Macs and Linux boxes almost exclusively, but I am not yet happy with any interface I have seen. I do like using KDE, but I think that every time I open a new window, it seems like I have to spend time setting it up for the current task. And I still can't really understand the appeal of tabbed web browsing. Every major GUI in current use has some sort of active task listing that is more or less built in, so screen clutter is essentially a moot point. We have all trained ourselves that to make what we are looking at go away, we click the close box. I just love having more than one close box in a window. Oops! I just killed the email I was typing because I was done trolling Slashdot in the other tab. Sure many like it, but for as many that like it, I am willing to bet at least twice as many web users don't even know what tabbed browsing is. We simply cannot base what is good and bad design on what the minority wants. KDE and Firebird work great for advanced users who like to have things exactly set up in a certain way, but the majority, I feel, could care less. I respect your opinions, but please respect mine by not attacking my lack of facts with your own lack of facts.

Re:Cool

[Afrosheen]

I'm sorry if you took my opinion as an affront, but I felt your criticism of 'linux desktops in general' lacked even a single example. I provided a few to back up my point.

The clutter that Windows' taskbar used to have when you had more than 5 or 6 windows open has been slightly cleaned up by another copied concept: window grouping. KDE has had this for a few versions (and subversions) now.

Whether or not you can adjust to tabbed browsing (I'll admit, it took me some time) doesn't mean it's useless or targetted at advanced users. However, once I got accustomed to using tabs regularly, any Windows machine felt primitive when browsing because they're missing. If I want to google something I have to either install the google toolbar and type it in there or open a new window; either way, it's just another open app to track or group to watch when it could be just the window I'm in.

I agree that having multiple tabs open then closing the whole window sucks when you forgot what you were doing in another tab. It needs an option that warns you that you have other tabs open (like Konsole does if you open multiple konsole sessions in a single window) when you try to close it. With that, tabs would be perfect and dummy-proof. Maybe it's an option that I haven't seen yet, if so the default needs to be set to whatever it's not set to now. :)

Anyway this has got me thinking about usability and how it can be improved. I guess it's a process that needs user feedback that may indeed be lacking in the linux community. Nobody ever mentions things unless they're broken, right?

Re:Cool

[the_womble]

Funny,

I find that Konqueror is one of the things I really miss when i move from my Linux machine at home to the Windows one at work.

Not only do I find Konqueror easeir to use, my completely non-techy wife does as well.

Finally what do you find half backed in Konqueror. Of your list previews and sort work faultlessly and, in the case of previews, for a wider variety of file types than on windows. I find split windows makes file management a lot easier other than that funtionality is similar.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

It can't do tabbed browsing

Install one of the many tabbed browser shells: Avant Browser, MyIE2, Crazy Browser. Now really, tabbed browsing is not exclusive with Mozilla anymore.

you can't split the window into multiple frames to make ftp'ing and file management easier

Wrong, right-click the taskbar, choose Tile Windows Vertically

if you visit a website you can't go recursively up the website's root tree

Install the Google toolbar; there's an Up button on it. Before you say that the toolbar is not a standard part of explorer, I would counter that most Windows users already have it. Thus, it's now a core part of Explorer's functionality.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

WINE attempts to do that.

Re:Cool

[julesh]

I can imagine a new Linux install process that doesn't require booting from a disk or CD. Instead you download a giant executable which starts a coLinux system

Unfortunately, it seems to require you to install drivers at the Windows end, so you still can't do it without a reboot.

I think it's possible in Windows to resize an NTFS partition online, correct me if I'm wrong though...

I'm not certain, but there are some operations that windows cannot perform on a mounted partition, and I suspect resizing is one of them. I know FAT->NTFS conversion is, if you want to do that to your system partition it has to reboot (or at least it did in NT4, which was the last time I did that operation...).

Re:Cool

[mcrbids]

Perhaps the one thing Windows does much better than Linux is graphical file management. Windows/Internet Explorer provides a reasonable interface to manage files, get previews, sort, find, etc. KDE and Gnome both try to provide these same services, but they are for the most part half baked

Excuse me?

Have you used a recent KDE desktop lately?

Sorry, but your assertion that it's "half baked" really leaves some room for laughter.

HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW!

Now, that's done, I feel much better. I absolutely *LOVE* KDE 3.x on RH 9. It's clean, efficient, powerful, and flexible.

One of the things KDE does so very right is multiple desktops. As a consultant, it's routine for me to work with several contracts simultaneously. Single-desktop systems like Windows become worthless in 2 hours of answering the phone and answering questions.

The overlapping windows, various browser and text windows all combine to create a hellacious mess in just a few hours.

It's very important for me to always leave the impression with each client that I'm there for THEM.

With KDE, I can define a desktop for each client, and then keep all processes and activity for that client on the appropriate desktop. I usually have 4 desktops, but right now I'm running 6. (busy!)

Somebody calls, I'm 2 or 3 keystrokes away from a busy computer with all relevant data onscreen. (Ctl-Tab and I'm there, buddy!)

I've been told more than once by clients that, while they know I work with and for other people, they never know that I'm not working 24x7 for THEM. That's a big win for me, and it's a big win in part because of KDE.

Don't you even begin to mention "half-baked". Maybe if your idea of "hard work" is beating Minesweeper in "expert" mode, Linux desktops are half-baked.

Perhaps my mome said it best: "You know what you like, and you like whatever you know..."

I sit down in front of a Windows box and immediately feel constrained. So much I just cannot do...

Re:Cool

[Spy Hunter]

In Windows XP at least, not all drivers require a reboot when installed. This page lists various circumstances and whether or not they require a reboot. I'm pretty sure starting Linux could be done without a reboot, even if it required installing some sort of driver. That page also mentions that "extending" an NTFS partition can be done without a reboot, but it doesn't mention shrinking. More investigation would be needed to find out.

Re:Cool

[chthon]

One thing I like to do is turn of standard Windows filesharing and running Samba under Linux, to get rid of the max. 14 shares we have here on our workstations.

Re:Cool

[iamwahoo2]

Still using kde 2.X? Konqueror destroys Explorer both as an internet browser and as a file manager (can be split into unlimited panes, with multiple tabs as well. Add in the navigation panel and terminal emulator and you have one powerfule file manager).

Re:Cool

[JCholewa]

> I find that Konqueror is one of the things I
> really miss when i move from my Linux machine at
> home to the Windows one at work.

I personally got latched into using the command line (it's odd... most people start from the command line and move to the gui; I went the opposite way). But there are a lot of problems with explorer.exe, particularly in its file selector widget (the "open file" dialog box), which seems to totally forget that Windows is multithreaded whenever I click on the "Location" drop-down (the box freezes for as much as ten to fifteen seconds, searching for available drives, even wasting time scanning the floppy, which only really exists for flashing ROMs and running memtest).

That said, Konqueror has one really, really annoying bug that's lasted at least several months: In the file management mode, when files are listed in Detailed view, standard mouse settings are ignored. I can't double-click on folders and files. I can either single-click to open them, or (in the other mode) I can double-click to select them, but I have to hit to open them. Totally annoying. :/

--
-JC
coder
http://www.jc-news.com/parse.cgi?coding/main

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Obvious!

Tux (bsDemon, etc)
vs
The Borg (Or ballmer, he's scarier, actually)

Re:Cool

[GAlain]

It needs an option that warns you that you have other tabs open when you try to close it.

Konqueror has it. At least in version 3.1.5 I am using. Maybe the "Don't show this dialog again" checkbox was checked once. Go browse the preferences, It may be possible to reactivate it.

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

Explorer is much better than most people give it credit for. Can you access virtually every feature of [MacOS|KDE|Gnome] without ever touching a mouse?

Re:Cool

[Anonymous Coward]

"Duel-booting" sounds like a good term for what the Windows installer does to your Linux bootloader.

Re:Cool

[nial-in-a-box]

Thanks for providing such a good response to my reply. I was doing the same things I was trying to fault you for. Thanks for being cool about that.

Re:Cool

[AnyNoMouse]

I agree that having multiple tabs open then closing the whole window sucks when you forgot what you were doing in another tab. It needs an option that warns you that you have other tabs open (like Konsole does if you open multiple konsole sessions in a single window) when you try to close it. With that, tabs would be perfect and dummy-proof. Maybe it's an option that I haven't seen yet, if so the default needs to be set to whatever it's not set to now. :)

I haven't used Konquerer so perhaps it does this as well, but Opera will save all of your tabs when you close out the main window. When you open Opera back up, all of your tabs are back in place. It's a great feature.

Re:Cool

[LittleDan]

Why wouldn't you want to use a mouse? That's what a GUI is for.

Re:Cool

[Peaker]

They are one, technically. Except for the GUI "mode" in which they are initiated.

Type a webaddress in an explorer window and see what happens.

Re:Cool

[Awptimus Prime]

Directory of C:\WINNT

06/19/2003 11:05a 243,472 explorer.exe
1 File(s) 243,472 bytes

Directory of C:\PROGRA~1\Internet Explorer

08/29/2002 06:14a 91,136 IEXPLORE.EXE
1 File(s) 91,136 bytes

Funny, they appear to be separate executables.

Embrace and extend

[t0qer]

I always thought that linux assimilating windows was better than windows assimilating linux.

Re:Embrace and extend

[kv9]

funny as it may be try to think of it not as assimilation but an easy way for windows lovers [who dont have a second box] to play w/ windows and linux both at once. i know old hardware is cheap and everyone could afford it but its still easier to play w/ everything on a single machine [for some people]. long story short its a very nifty thing. wizardry some might say. im lookin forward to some kinda wine that will work the same way.

Re:Embrace and extend

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. This is like Linux being reduced to a windows application. But it's probably for the best. The majority of desktop users use windows, and currently they can protect themselves by using alternative applications for email (eg. Eudora), web browsing (eg. Firebird), and web processing (eg. OpenOffice.org). Now they can protect themselves further by using Linux. Perhaps some will eventually convert if they get to the point where they're doing everything in Linux.

Re:Embrace and extend

[jeremytribby]

But now it replaces the old addage, "ah yes, but does it run linux?"

Re:Embrace and extend

[NickFortune]

It's a dangerous tech to rely upon though. MS remains a hostile platform. No one outside of microsoft is supposed to write software in the world according to willy, and lots of free apps for windows will cut into MS profits.

Anyone think redmond will allow this to gain a significant user base? Or will they do an XBox and nobble it with a bug fix, where the bug is defined as "runs linux"

I know which way I'm betting...

Re:Embrace and extend

[FlipmodePlaya]

Won't things like Win for Lin or a virtual machine fulfil that Wine thing you're looking for?

Re:Embrace and extend

[DustMagnet]

Assimilation is like mergers. Who is doing and to whom it's being done isn't really that clear. As long as GPL code is spreading, I'm happy.

Re:Embrace and extend

[bonch]

Doubtful. Microsoft's own Virtual PC 6 even runs Linux, FreeBSD, and others quite happily.

Re:Embrace and extend

[NickFortune]

Virtual PC is a recent purchase by MS, isn't it?

I'm not convinced that they intend to keep that as a viable product. "Embrace and exterminate" seems to be the usual methodology.

I'd expect the MS campaign to go:

1. "Hey, you can run linux on windows - no need to migrate"
2. "Linux - just another 3rd party windows app"
3. Quietly cripple virtual PC et al
4. "I remember Linux - all these 3rd party apps are hopelessly buggy - stick with microsoft, m'boy!
5. "Virual PC? What's that then?"

Not that I'm paranoid or anything...

This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 happen

[pardasaniman]

Way back when I wanted to try linux. (now 2-3 years ago) I searched far and away to find this ability, because my dad would have gone bonkers should I have installed/booted another OS.

I get the question quite alot. "Can linux run in Windows"... To which I must roll my eyes and explain that it's another OS.

This is going to be very helpful in convincing people to run linux.

I can just picture myself booting knoppix to make my (Anti-PowerPoint) presentations at school.

Gr8 Stuff!

Windows users can now use more free apps!

[spun]

That's a good thing, IMHO. Too often, I have needed some tool or other while working on Windows machines, and there are no free alternatives. If Windows users can use really free software, they may be less inclined to download horrific ad-ware and spy-ware, too. I wonder how easy it is to share data between Windows and Linux apps? Guess I'll go RTFA now...

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[The One KEA]

You could almost get away with this using VMware, but now with this Cooperative Linux project, it doesn't matter anymore!

If this gets the attention that I think it deserves, this could literally shake apart the entire foundation of the folks who continue to decry Linux. Now a savvy admin who wants to use the Linux versions of Windows crapware can do so, without reinstalling the OS and incurring the wrath of the Microsofties. He gets the best of both worlds: high-quality free software running on top of the "sanctioned" OS. The only drawback to this thing, IMO, is that it may stifle the efforts of people who are trying to port some of the more sophisticated Linux apps to Windows, and may simply give up when they hear that because of this, no porting is required. But I doubt that will be a major issue.

Here's to hoping this project goes somewhere!

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[selderrr]

people who are trying to port some of the more sophisticated Linux apps to Windows, and may simply give up when they hear that because of this, no porting is required

Look at it the other way : if great linux apps are not ported to windows, but instead are delivered with an easy install of colinux+a small distro (the keyword here will be easy !) then more people will learn to know linux. And one day perhaps install it as 2nd OS on their machine, from which the step to primary OS is a small one !

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[slugo3]

I think the easiest setup would be if you could emulate linux apps in a window without having to boot up the whole disto. either way I think it will be more of a good thing for OSS than Linux because most users will think of linux as just a program that allows them to run OSS software.

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[Jeremi]

This is great for Linux people who are stuck at companies where everybody is required to run Windows on their PC... they can just boot Windows, double click the "Cooperative Linux" icon, maximize the Linux window, and forget about Microsoft for the rest of the day :^)

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[Foolhardy]

I don't want to install kernel-mode software just to run some app that should run entirely in user mode.
CoLinux requires a kernel mode component.
If you distribute the app with CoLinux as a requirement, the end user will have to install a driver.

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[julesh]

There's not a lot of information in it, but the way I see it, you could write a special device driver in the linux kernel that interacts with your own mods in the windows driver to do whatever the hell you like with the windows API. You could, for instance, implement a device that sends & receives windows messages... then you could do DDE with a Windows app.

Although, to be honest, I reckon it'd be easier just to use the networking code...

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[Krunch]

Until Windows crashes...

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[HawkPilot]

This is great for Linux people who are stuck at companies where everybody is required to run Windows on their PC... they can just boot Windows, double click the "Cooperative Linux" icon, maximize the Linux window, and forget about Microsoft for the rest of the day :^)

I work at one of these companies; however, I am not trusted with administrative access. Therefore I can't even install a printer, much less software." (WIN2K w/ AD) No thanks, I'll just stick with CYGWin. No admin access is required to install or run it.

That's the great thing about WIN2K (in)security, as long as I don't need to write to the registry or write to the WINDOWS or Programs Files directories, I can run any old code and open up any network port for connections. Cygwin works great in these situations. It even works on a USB Memory stick. Since Cooperative Linux works at the device driver level as opposed to the userland dll level, I don't think it will work for me.

Cooperative Linux sounds like a great idea though. Although, I would prefer more stable and free ways for windows apps to run under linux.

Re:Windows users can now use more free apps!

[simonjester2424]

If setup propery (which I'm betting this version of linux would almost have to be) Linux can use Fat32 and other windows disk formats, so yes you'd be able to share data between Windows and Linux, as long as the file formats were compatible. Just try opening an Office doc. with vi for example (not gonna happen Poncho).

Rootless?

[Alex Reynolds]

Can this run rootless X11 Linux apps, like Apple's X11?

-Alex

Re:Rootless?

[stevenrieder]

You probably can use a normal Windows X-server for that, X is network transparent. So yes, it's probably possible.

Re:Rootless?

[Ianoo]

If you notice, the X Server in use is actually Cygwin/XFree86 rather than something built in to this system. The actual system runs in console mode only, and thanks to the flexibility of X, allows apps run in the console to connect back to any X server running on the machine.

The point is, if you can find a rootless X server for MS Windows, you can do so. The only one I'm aware of is eXceed (although I don't keep up with them because I have no need for them). It's commercial, but is usually cheaper or free through a university or college.

Re:Rootless?

[richard_za]

If you have a look at the roadmap you will see that are planning to implement a frame-buffer device to replace the need to use Cygwin/XFree86. I wish them good luck.

Re:Rootless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Isn't Cygwin/XFree86 itself a rootless X server?

Re:Rootless?

[dolmen.fr]

Cygwin/XFree86 can be run rootless, and even using Windows as a WM for better integration.

From the Cygwin bash prompt, launch:
XWin -multiwindow &

There is a startxwin.bat that does that and that is bundled with Cygwin/XFree86.

Re:Rootless?

[dossen]

Another one is X-Win32 from StarNet. Works pretty well, and runs root-less (I think it can also run 'in a window').

Re:Rootless?

[owlstead]

Confirmed, finally I can run Xeyes on my Windows computer. Xroaches will be more difficult though :)

I have a client (Win2k) server (RH linux 9) configuration installed. I currently run X windows from my cygwin configuration and gnome-session from my linux host atop of that. Looks great and runs fine over a 100 mbit connection. I'll try the K-desktop later on.

The biggest problem under cygwin is that applications don't respond well to control characters. Otherwise most applications are running fine. It takes some getting used to the different file name conventions and line feed characters though. So this linux under Win2k/XP is very welcome.

Re:Rootless?

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, as others have pointed out already, Cygwin's X server provides multiwindow and rootless modes of operation as well as the "big root window" format seen in those screenshots.

Secondly, it's called Cygwin/X (not Cygwin/XFree86).

Re:Rootless?

[Ianoo]

Thanks for the info. Feel free to mod my grandparent down.

Re:Rootless?

[jhunsake]

Yeah, this is informative, as in misinformative.

Re:Rootless?

[tankrshr77]

The newest version of cygwin/x11 http://www.cygwin.com/xfree/ can run in both rootless mode and multiwindow mode. The above comments are outdated. (I'm running kde programs from kde-cygwin right now)

Re:Rootless?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's been there for a loooong time. It did not just appear in the newest version.

Re:Rootless?

[demon]

Yes, and it also has terrible color-endianness problems. I tried using it with Mac-on-Linux from a PowerMac 7500 running Debian, and it butchered the colors, whether using PseudoColor or TrueColor. I'd go for XFree86's port to Windows - it actually works right, and yes Virginia, it does rootless too. (See some other comments.)

Re:Rootless?

[fockewulf]

XManager is another rootless X server which is cheaper. You can also download a trial version which works with all the functionality of the actual apart from the nag screen after 30 days.

Re:Rootless?

[chthon]

In cygwin 'xinit -- -rootless' !

Re:Rootless?

[orthogonal]

From the Cygwin bash prompt, launch:
XWin -multiwindow &

Ok, when I do this, the X Server starts up, and the comtrol for it shows up in my MS Windows tray.

But when I try to start any x apps from the bash promy, like xeyes, I get this

$ xclock &
[2] 1024

Administrator Mon Feb 02 09:57:49 /home/Administrator/birdsongs
$ Error: Can't open display:

[2]+ Exit 1 xclock

How do i run X apps with the rootless X server?

Thanks!

Re:Rootless?

[dolmen.fr]

Your problem is not related to XFree or to the rootless mode but would be the same with any X server.

When you start an X server, only the local (started from the same machine) client applications are allowed to display on the X server. If you want to display applications running on another machine, you must explicitly autorise this.
From the cygwin bash prompt :
export DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:0.0
xhost + remote-host1 remote-host2 remote-host3...

I made a small batch file that I use to start XFree in rootless mode :

@echo off
path .;%CYGWIN_ROOT%\bin;%CYGWIN_ROOT%\usr\X11R6\bin;%P ATH%
start XWin -multiwindow
set DISPLAY=127.0.0.1:0.0
xhost + host1 host2 > NUL

Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

It will probably look better than native Linux because of the better fonts in Windows.

Re:Hmmm

[standsolid]

this is rated intersting?

stop being ignorant!

I would argue to say that fonts on MY linux box look a hell of a lot better than a windows box. they are ALL antialiased. it's pretty.

why is it always A.C.s I get into arguments with.

Re:Hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right: all Linux fonts are antialiased. Therein lies the problem. The small point fonts look blurry and illegible. IMO, Windows does it right. For example, Arial is smoothed from points 0-6, hinted from points 7-13, and hinted and smoothed 14+. This method gives readability across the entire spectrum. Since Linux depends on the ancient X server, it probably will never have this capability.

Re:Hmmm

[standsolid]

ok, you are really pissing me off.

I personally LIKE all my fonts anti-aliased, but I can sympathize with those who don't. there are even options for you too. You can tell X's font server only to use the smoothing on certain font size ranges. My fonts are not blurry, they are completely smooth. Hell, it's even easy to set using KDE's control center

And what is this "ancient X Server" you speak of? My XFree86 X11 implementation is still be actively developed, and there are several other implementations arising from those unhappy with it's state.
GNU/Linux does not DEPEND on it at all. Unlike YOUR Operating system of choice, I could work 100% independent of my GUI, and still be just as productive. Not only that, but as I mentioned earlier, There are people unhappy with it's state and building a new system. Let's say I don't like how Windows' GUI system works. I really want a network transparent GUI. Great! I'll replace This grpahical subsystem with an X11 implementation.... oh that's right. I FUCKING CAN'T!

Linux is a FANTASTIC desktop environment. Now, I'd admit it's not near ready for the everyday-n00b usage (i.e. you) -- but I have no life and had plenty of time to learn it.

Get off your soapbox until you can collect enough facts to form up an argument.

Slow day?

[ZiZ]

Slow day, eh?

Hardly. This is a very interesting and useful project, with rather deeper implications for virtual server operation. Rather than requiring a pile of specialized code to emulate a machine, you just give the other OS a little private corner of its own, allowing the host OS to give it resources whenever they're avaliable (and how nice it is about giving those resources is easy to manage). Presto, huge performance increase.

It'd be a slow day if we saw, say, another article about SCO, an article about Microsoft 'blocking spam', some nostalgic whining about lack of innovation in games, a few drab articles about nothing in particular...

Kind of like yesterday.

Re:Slow day?

[smittyoneeach]

What is this accomplishing that cygwin did not?

By constantly switching the machine's state between the host OS state and and the coLinux kernel state, coLinux is given full control of the physical machine's MMU (i.e, paging and protection) in its own specially allocated address space, and is able to act just like a native kernel, achieving almost the same performance and functionality that can be expected from a regular Linux which could have ran on the same machine standalone.

Since coLinux uses the same binary format for user-space executables as native Linux, coLinux can load and run an existing unmodified Linux distribution concurrently with the host OS.

Right on. Now, what about the hard drive? How are we mounting a non-Redmond volume? Can my hip-pocket 2.6.x kernel dip into that NTFS volume safely?
From the "roadmap" page:

Add interoperability features for coLinux and the host OS, especially Windows.

Hmmm. Cygwin lives, apparently. ;)

Re:Slow day?

[johnnyb]

This is better because it can run Linux apps directly, rather than having to port them to Cygwin. This will also help me in my new book, because I'm teaching Linux assembly language.

nifty

[mix_master_mike]

It looks nice, i'll be giving it a try. There are alot of instances in which you may need linux quick. cygwin rival?

great for n00bs !

[selderrr]

for linux noobs like me, this is greeat news ! this will allow me to run a distro at work where xp boot is obliged. i hope they come up with an installation tutorial & extensive documentation soon (no docs for now on th website)

Windows Services for Unix...

[SwansonMarpalum]

...just got a whole lot less useful. ;)

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Homology]

...just got a whole lot less useful. ;) SFY 3.5 is a deficient product, and probably made so. It won't uninstall cleanly (leaving files only deletable by SYSTEM, making it a pain to remove them), and the shells (ksh and chs) misses tab-completion in emacs mode. I use Cygwin mostly for it's shell and utilities, and SFU is no replacement for this.

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you've never used a real Unix like BSD or Solaris, and are spoiled on BASH. That is how the shells are supposed to work, dope.

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Homology]

Obviously you've never used a real Unix like BSD or Solaris, and are spoiled on BASH. That is how the shells are supposed to work, dope. Pray tell me, why does the OpenBSD ksh have tab-completion while SFU does not?

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go download bash here http://www.interopsystems.com/tools/warehouse.htm

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Anonymous Coward]

Go download bash here http://www.interopsystems.com/tools/warehouse.htm

What a bore you are. Don't you have any imagination?

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Anonymous Coward]

Because that's not how the Original Korn Shell works! You hit ESC twice to complete the path. Tab-completion was added to other KSH 93's by some GNU-lovin' hippies.

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Homology]

Many things are not as they were originally some ancient time ago. The OpenBSD ksh does not by default use ESC twice for path completion, and only an ignorant will claim that OpenBSD are GNU-lovin' hippies.

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[ameoba]

Personally I think the big win with SFU is NFS/NIS integration for Windows.

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Spoing]

1. Obviously you've never used a real Unix like BSD or Solaris, and are spoiled on BASH. That is how the shells are supposed to work, dope.

*BLINK* So, Bash can be compared to BSD and Solaris? Will the wonders ever stop!?!?!?!

Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[rale, the]

http://www.interix.com/ has free addon packages for SFY, including bash (with working tab completion), gnu tar (for those addicted to 'tar zxvf', and a bunch of other stuff. They're rather easy to install, a couple of commands, all documented on the site. Cygwin is nice, don't get me wrong, but SFY's integration with windows seems tighter overall, with less of cygwin's issues. SFY also includes a very nice nfs driver that lets you mount nfs shares in windows just like samba ones.

Nice, but not ideal

[Anonymous Coward]

Ideally, people would be running Windows on top of Linux. Otherwise, eventually we will have Linux... requires Windows Longhorn or higher on newer computers.

Unfourtuantely

[Hal The Computer]

Well this is definitely Really Neat, after reading their homepage, I see that In its current condition, it allows us to run the KNOPPIX Japanese Edition on Windows. Unfourtunately as far as I can tell, that's all it can run without modification.
Also, coLinux currently lacks documentation.
If you don't speak Japenese, you might have some difficulties using this software to it's fullest.

Re:Unfourtuantely

[richard_za]

Well it is early days, and the success of projects such as these depends on community participation. For example it probably needs some volunteers for the documentation.

Re:Unfourtuantely

[Anonymous Coward]

we've got plenty of fansubs groups.. this should be easy :)

Re:Unfourtuantely

[fygment]

From the site:

"Since coLinux uses the same binary format for user-space executables as native Linux, coLinux can load and run an existing unmodified Linux distribution concurrently with the host OS."

Re:Unfourtuantely

[netsharc]

Knoppix was born in Germany, I find it funny that the Japanese KDE has a German error message "df: >>/mnt/cdrom<<: Datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden." .. I wonder how the Japanese (the non-German speaking ones, so no one can call me ignorant ;) would enjoy that.

Re:Unfourtuantely

[jaxdahl]

Looking at the sourceforge site, someone says he's successfully installed an almost-unmodified Debian distro with this thing. here

Re:Screenshots Only Mirror

[Anonymous Coward]

Hmmm, interesting screenshot. By the looks of it, it still needs some work.

Re:already been done before.

[stevenrieder]

Cygwin can't directly run linux apps. Sure, you can port apps to cygwin, but it's not the same.

Loser Only Comment would be more accurate

[TheScienceKid]

It's a troll link to tubgirl. Don't waste your time.

Lets go forwards, not backwards; Upwards not forwards; and always twirling, twirling towards mod points. In other words, vote this troll out of office with your modpoints. It's the right thing to do.... don't let Kodos win.

Re:already been done before.

[Interruach]

It's different to cygwin because it can potentially support any distro. So you could run mandrake on windows, or debian, etc etc etc.

What I want to know is, will it let me do 'dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/disk.img' on windows (which cygwin doesn't allow)
Windows 2000's horribly broken floppy support is *really* annoying.

UMDOS

[/dev/trash]

Granted I haven't read the article, but how is this different from doing an UMSDOS Install?

Re:UMDOS

[The One KEA]

Because the kernel has been ported directly onto the Windows API, this means that the kernel looks like a Windows program, yet is actually an encapsulated Linux system. This means that you can use whatever filesystem you wish. How they intend to solve the issue of getting data in and out of the encapsulated OS, I don't know - they aren't very clear on the website.

Re:UMDOS

[dolmen.fr]

Network is probably the solution as they are already displaying X11 applications on a Cygwin/XFree86 Windows host.

Re:UMDOS

[Anonymous Coward]

Very different. This runs the Linux kernel under Windows -- kind of like user mode linux.

UMSDOS ran Linux normally, but used a funny dos-based filesystem, and sometimes used an odd boot loader called "loadlin.exe".

Re:UMDOS

[iantri]

A UMSDOS system can not run simultaneously with Windows; you must reboot into Linux.

This runs simultaneously.

HEY EINSTEIN

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a utility called--GASP-- dd that does this.

I M SO SMRT I CN'T USE GOOGLE!!11!

Re:HEY EINSTEIN

[Anonymous Coward]

einstein`omg lol m=e^2*c! omfg rotfl! :DDDDD

Re:HEY EINSTEIN

[Interruach]

Thankyou for your reply.
I didn't know of this, but it may come in useful.

unfortunately it doesn't look like it will solve the 'windows won't read my floppy disk' problem that most of our users come to us with all-too frequently, I quote from their site:

You can write to any file or block device which windows will allow you to write to. You can use \\.\ notation for win32 exported devices or \\?\ and the windows native device name.

Will give it a try anyway. If it doesn't work, can still go to the old solution (stick it in a linux box that can magically read any disk)

Interesting to watch this

[richard_za]

When I wan't to use *nix tools under Windows I've always trusted Cygwin, but I can see how this project can provide a good alternative to Cygwin XFree86 as suggested in the roadmap. This could also provide an excellent solution for developers to test interoperability between Internet Explorer and Linux webservers - especially if they are limited to one computer. It could also be used to educate people on using Linux, it is a perfect match with Knoppix in this respect.

Wine developers could use this compare apps running natively and those running under wine side-by-side.

Re:Interesting to watch this

[Ianoo]

Cygwin can't run a lot of Linux apps directly. Most of the time they need porting, because libraries are not the same. Both try to be POSIX complaint, but both aren't, so the work is usually fairly minimal, but it's still work to be done. CoLinux allows it to all happen transparently with no source code changes. As such, it's much more useful.

Windows Services for UNIX also suffers from the same problem, it also tries to be POSIX complaint, but its POSIX defficiencies match neither Linux nor Cygwin.

Re:Interesting to watch this

[richard_za]

I guess that's why Microsoft has made Windows Services for UNIX available for free download. I'd be interested (from the perspective of the development projects I am involved in) to benchmark Cygwin Postgresql against a native Linux Postgresql running under Co-Linux.

Re:Interesting to watch this

[Homology]

Windows Services for UNIX also suffers from the same problem, it also tries to be POSIX complaint, but its POSIX defficiencies match neither Linux nor Cygwin.

Erhm, is SFU more or less POSIX compliant than Linux? You make it sound as a POSIX defficiency is a good thing ;-)

Re:Interesting to watch this

[caseih]

To run coLinux right now, you still need the Cygwin XFree86 server. All coLinux can do is essentially a text-mode virtual console. This is okay, since running the X server as a native windows app is potentially faster. I frequently use Xnest in Linux as the display for my VMWare machines because it's so much faster. So there's no real need or hurry to get virtual graphics card support for coLinux, in my opinion.

Re:Interesting to watch this

[netsharc]

Talking about Cygwin, I remember trying to copy a file from Windows to a Linux computer via the network. It was pretty big, and I didn't want to waste time using SSH's encryption. I tried netcat (they have a Windows version), which worked quite neatly, but it was damn slow.

I had a Linux system (not the target system), where I could smbmount the Windows share, read the file from the SMB share, and netcat it out to the target computer. Fascinatingly, transferring it this way was a lot faster.

The point? Windows is lame, and emulated Unix in Windows would be a lot slower..

Stability?

[greyguppy]

I saw this on LKML about an hour ago, and it interested me then.

What I am wondering about is quite how stable it is possible to get something like this.
We all know how Windows assumes it is the only OS installed, when dealing with things like disk partitions, MBR's etc. How does the Windows NT kernel like sharing Ring 0 with Linux?

Overall this is an excellent innovation for Linux to move forward. I suppose you could chart the increase of Linux "market share" as follows.

1.) Linus and his friends
2.) Early Distributions
3.) Redhat makes inroads
4.) Live CD's (Knoppix et al)
5.) CoLinux

You have gone from experimental boxes only, to dual booting to Live CD's to try Linux out (very slow...)

If this can come close to Linux alone in speed, then this is a major step forward.
No more lengthy installs with dual booting etc.

If a linux fan wants to show a Windows user what its all about then they can hopefully download one EXE and go.

Pity I haven't got a windows partition so I can test it.

Re:Stability?

[The One KEA]

According to the website, they've written special core drivers for the host OS which modify the way the host OS receives notifications from the hardware - to make the long story short, it allows both OSes to coexist peacefully and run at a decent speed as well.

Re:Stability?

[Ianoo]

I haven't looked at the implementation, but I suspect Linux is running more as a Ring 3 (much like User Mode Linux runs under traditional "kernel mode" Linux) with appropriate layers to forward interupts and virtualise devices.

Re:Stability?

[owlstead]

We all know how Windows assumes it is the only OS installed, when dealing with things like disk partitions, MBR's etc. How does the Windows NT kernel like sharing Ring 0 with Linux?

That should be no problem. Vmware already locks partitions or even serial and USB devices for it's own use. Obviously you cannot share these partitions or devides with both operating systems, but one at a time is no problem at all.

You have gone from experimental boxes only, to dual booting to Live CD's to try Linux out (very slow...)

I don't know about really slow. CDROM are definately not _that_ slow anymore. My Dell laptop has no problem at all running knoppix, including sound, firewire, networking, usb support. As long as you have enough memory (256 at least, 512 mb runs great) it is not slow after startup either. And compared with a complete installation of linux it takes a lot less time. Upgrading is easy too :)

If a linux fan wants to show a Windows user what its all about then they can hopefully download one EXE and go.

That I must agree with. It would take a bit of pain out of that process. And they can still keep their freakin' MSN messenger running in the background.

Re:Stability?

[asuffield]

If this can come close to Linux alone in speed, then this is a major step forward.

It probably can't. Windows itself has massive, wide-reaching performance issues, especially with IO. It is very unlikely that you can use a device in both without taking a massive performance hit from the terrible IO scheduling and support in Windows (presently it appears to support no device sharing at all, which is pretty useless).

Re:Stability?

[Anonymous Coward]

"As long as you have enough memory (256 at least, 512 mb runs great)"

I'm posting from Knoppix on a box with only 64megs. its slow but usable.

Great about 2 weeks 2 late

[MajorDick]

I spent about 20 hours trying to get my NTFS partition on my new toshiba laptop (Has XP) in some kind of order to run NTFSresize, but I couldnt I finally bailed and got my hands on a copy of Partition Magic to resize it. I looked around for things to do this, I cant rember the names now, but there used to be a version that would do this years ago. I finally repartitioned and installed Fedora.
I wish I would have come accross this aboput 2 damm weeks ago.

Re:Great about 2 weeks 2 late

[cowbutt]

I have it on good authority that BootIT NG works for resizing NTFS partitions non-destructively.

--

Re:already been done before.

[grimiore1]

cygwin runs apps....this project proposes to run the linux kernel and the windows kernel on the same hardware at the same time...which means that you can run native x86 apps, without recompiling or porting a ton of apps.

I'm sorry . . .

[vsprintf]

but there is just something fundamentally wrong with running Linux under Windows. Yes, I saw the line about ring 0, but it's still like the chickens coexisting with the fox. No thanks.

Re:I'm sorry . . .

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, you know the next step is for the foxes to eat the chicken. Best to keep Windows away from those voracious linux distributions...

Re:I'm sorry . . .

[bersl2]

Um... I think it's the other way around.

sweet

[sPaKr]

Great All the bugs of windows, and the Linux User Interface. jebus sometimes we should not ask 'can I' but rather 'should I'.

Re:sweet

[Haeleth]

All the bugs of windows, and the Linux User Interface.

Or you could look at it the other way - all the power of the Linux command-line, and Windows games without rebooting.

(Yeah, Cygwin gives you a lot of that. But this is still cool.)

Note also that they're porting this to OSes other than Windows...

Let's get this over with...

[jaymzter]

Yeah, but does it run on Windows?

Finally, installing Linux takes only one click!

In the future, please refer to it as GNU/Windows...

Re:Let's get this over with...

[Anonymous Coward]

Cygwin is GNU/Windows. This would be GNU/Linux/Windows.

Windows users, repeat after me:

[spun]

Crapware is the issue here. You do not need help setting your system clock. Bonzai (sp?) Buddy is not your friend. Real is not a good streaming media player. If you need help filling in web forms, use a browser that can do it for you! You do not need to sell your soul to some marketing devil in order to download music. $40 is not a bargain on CD burning software, nor is it a bargain on a good text editor. There are in fact decent mail-readers that won't bork your system and aren't spyware (cough *eudora* cough). I could go on, but you get the picture.

Users of Windows, you have nothing to lose but your chains!

Re:Windows users, repeat after me:

[julesh]

There are in fact decent mail-readers that won't bork your system and aren't spyware (cough *eudora* cough).

Err... last time I used Eudora (and I'll admit this was a fair few years ago) it used to automatically extract all attachments it received into a single directory on your hard disk, leaving it susceptible to a fair number of serious security vulnerabilities, like the one where you send a specific DLL and a Word document to somebody, and when they open the Word document, Word runs the code in the DLL...

I think mozilla is probably one of the safe choices for Windoze mail reading software at the moment, as long as you stay up-to-date.

Re:Windows users, repeat after me:

[Grotus]

The implication I got from his post was that Eudora fell into the crapware category, more specifically the spyware category.

I used Eudora for a long time, until I finally got sick of something (I forget what) and switched to Mozilla (now thunderbird).

Re:Windows users, repeat after me:

[spun]

Yeah, I was implying that Eudora was crapware AND spyware. It's a shame too, as I remember back in my early Macintosh days it was a decent program.

Ive been thinking about this lately

[TheRealMindChild]

And I don't see why something like this couldn't be done more often, even as a test platform. All that needs to happen is the core of the kernel be an interface to the underlying OS's kernel (or possibly a vitrual machine. Think Java or .NET), and a little bit of magic to get the OTHER OS's binary's to link into the layered kernel properly, and you've got something invaluable in so many respects.

I am glad to see it not only implemented, but doing rather well. While it may not have a million and one reasons right now, a promising factor is accurate development/debugging on one platform for another... much like the QNX/Windows dev package, only not as horribly complex.

MOD PARENT UP.

[The One KEA]

You are absolutely correct, of course - if CoLinux is eventually surrounded with a distro dedicated to this sort of thing, it may actually help in legitimzing OSS/Free software in the eyes of the skeptics.

inter-OS communications

[Anonymous Coward]

When you send data to 127.0.0.1, which OS picks it up? This boggles my mind.

Re:inter-OS communications

[Jediman1138]

It'd be the host OS, which in this case is Windows. I don't see any other way for it do that without routing it to both.

Re:inter-OS communications

[DashEvil]

Since the kernel has been turned into a Windows app I'm assuming that when a Linux program asks for a port, it asks the Linux kernel and then that asks Windows.

As far as 127.0.0.1, not that it really matters, but since there is specialized code in the kernel for this... Linux will get the Linux program 127.0.0.1 calls, and Windows will get the Windows program 127.0.0.1 calls.

Re:inter-OS communications

[Lord of Ironhand]

As you can see on this screenshot it uses a virtual networking device, just like VMWare and User Mode Linux do. From the network POV, the guest and host OS are two different systems. The OS that recieves data you send to 127.0.0.1 is the same you sent it from.

Re:inter-OS communications

[Krynus]

Depends on the OS you do it from. You can logically think of this technology as 2 computers from a network perspective.

Re:inter-OS communications

[Anonymous Coward]

Bzzzt. Wrong answer.

Re:already been done before.

[Ianoo]

Cygwin can't run a lot of Linux apps directly. Most of the time they need porting, because libraries are not the same. Both try to be POSIX complaint, but both aren't, so the work is usually fairly minimal, but it's still work to be done. CoLinux allows it to all happen transparently with no source code changes. As such, it's much more useful.

Windows Services for UNIX also suffers from the same problem, it also tries to be POSIX complaint, but its POSIX defficiencies match neither Linux nor Cygwin.

BORG Linux? ...

[fygment]

... Windows will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

Re:This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 hap

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sure after all that condescending eye rolling, people are so wowed your extreme nerdiness that they switch to Linux immediately. Or not.

OEM

[Ugmo]

If this ever becomes stable and useful, OEM's who now have contracts with MS that requires them to pay so much per box to MS whether or not Windows is installed can now start providing Windows + a Linux distribution of choice, at the factory as an option.

The can advertise their box as coming with hundreds of free software programs by throwing in a knoppix cd.
Best of both worlds for the OEMs

Re:OEM

[Molt]

Umm.. no, I think this would be a bad thing from the perspective of MS, and hence through market manipulation the OEM suppliers.

If this happened then people may consider Linux to actually be a viable alternative to the Windows preinstalled on this machines. Personally I don't think Linux is getting there quite yet, for home use games and such are just too influential for Linux to stand a chance (And yes, I've played Nethack.. almost finished it.. nowhere near KotOR).

Businesses in themselves won't be swayed until they can run Linux and interoperate with others, via virious MS Word readers, PDF viewers and so forth.

I actually think Linux is getting there, but then I realise someone has to write something to replace legacy pap like Lotus Notes (Which I am forced to use, alas) and I despaire.. can anyone ever write anything so cohesive yet annoying without being paid for their pain?

Re:Screenshots Only Mirror

[Anonymous Coward]

Truly an American icon.

Re:already been done before.

[Soruk]

What I want to know is, will it let me do 'dd if=/dev/fd0 of=/disk.img' on windows (which cygwin doesn't allow)

It did last time I tried it! I believe it needs a pretty recent cygwin1.dll, though.

Binaries

[amembleton]

Unfortunatelly there are no binaries up on their SourceForge page yet, although they do have the source up.

This does look very intresting and will save me rebooting to switch between Linux and Windows apps.

Re:U R SO AWESOME

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, my teachers aren't pleased to have me install software. Plus, winblows doesn't come with my fonts/settings. What can be easier than autorun starting linux when u pop in a cd.

Too bad...

[juhaz]

Too bad that it's not the other way away.

Running Windows on top of Linux without VMWare etc. would be damn nice at times, but guess windoze is too inflexible for that to ever happen.

Re:Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Nah, the problem is that Linux, being a toy OS, doesn't have the power to run another OS within it.

You can run Linux on top of Windows (note spelling, it makes you look retarded to say "windoze") because Windows, being a product of open market forces (which are more powerful than Open Source forces), can just do... well, almost anything.

Be sure and let us know when Linux can do half of what Windows does.

Re:Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Is that the best you can do?

I mean, trolling is stupid in itself, but being a lousy troll like yourself ... I'd just hang myself.

Re:Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh dear. That really is a very bad troll.

Keep trying.

Re:Too bad...

[Anonymous Coward]

Decent Slashdot trolls everywhere are cringing and shaking their heads in disapproval.

Re:Too bad...

[standsolid]

A really good troll makes every word in his sentence a link so that his point seems valid.

You don't even have to visit the sites, just google something like "linux vs windows", grab relevent links and include then in your post. No one will read them anyways, and believe you because you provided plenty of background Info and reputable sources (computing.net included!). They will have to believe your Pro-Windows rant.

Linux isn't a Toy OS. it's used by google. Who provided you this Informative post :)

Never mind.

[bersl2]

Um... I think I should just go sit down now.

Very promising

[UfoZ]

This is certainly a great idea, I never would've considered running 2 OSes in such a perverse way :)

Looks like they currently support GUI only using a separate X server running on the host, like the one Cygwin has, but an alternative is on their development roadmap.

• Frame buffer device. Let the native XFree86 server be used instead of using a "remote" X server provided by the host OS such as the Cygwin XFree86 server under Windows.

I'd be interested in some speed and stability benchmarks, and whether it can do a bit more advanced stuff such as 3D acceleration (for now, probably not)

wow

[tetrahedrassface]

This is one nice thing they have going. If its developed correctly it could really turn a lot of people on to Linux. I am all for that!~

Predictions, anyone?

[Alioth]

We've had Slashdot stories about how many operating systems someone has got on one machine (by multi-booting).

We probably need a sweepstake for predicting when Slashdot will have the story on how many operating systems have been run virtually on one machine.

Linux running vmWare'd Windows which in turn is running a Debian distro under coLinux, which in turn is running Fedora as a user-mode Linux instance, in turn running FreeBSD as a Xen virtual machine instance... oh, the horrors :-)

Re:This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 hap

[wik]

Or perhaps, they believe they are saving the world:

http://www.ubergeek.tv/switchlinux/

Requires flash, but it's worth it.

Yin-Monopoly?

[Mmm coffee]

Am I the only one a bit freaked out by seeing the Windows logo in the yin/yang icon?

Good idea, this distro. I was thinking about this just a few hours ago (no joke) that someone should make a distro that installs on a Windows system. That is, everything is kept in a Windows directory (c:\linux\) and thus you can dual boot a GNU/Linux system without having to mess with your system. The only thing that would be touched would be your bootloader. Would help a lot of people dip their toes into GNU/Linux that normally wouldn't do so due to having to backup everything, repartition, etc.

This comes pretty damn close to that idea.

Re:Yin-Monopoly?

[ScottSpeaks!]

Am I the only one a bit freaked out by seeing the Windows logo in the yin/yang icon?

I'm sure Microsoft's legal department will be. CoLinux is going to have to change that MS-Windows(R) icon to a more generic 4-color window icon.

Re:Yin-Monopoly?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's called UMSDOS and has existed for years and years. See the ZipSlack Slackware spinoff, for example, or DragonLinux.

Re:Yin-Monopoly?

[XO]

In days before currenty 2.5/2.6 kernel versions, there was a filesystem called UMSDOS, that allowed you to run from within a DOS file system, entirely. My router does that (it's running 2.0.35 still), and it works fine. Except that when it powerfails, it has to run SCANDISK completely before booting, which sometimes runs into something where it wants a keypress, and there's no keyboard or monitor to do so.. which takes the network down until the roommates acll me and say "come home please help"

Serious Doubts...

[lkaos]

Why this does seem quite cool I want to offer a warning before you go and install this on your non-backed up mission critical server.

Many projects have attempted to achieve this goal. It's taken quite a bit of time so far. This project has taken a short cut though by simply letting the Windows kernel and Linux kernel run side-by-side in kernel mode. Traditional approaches don't allow this.

That's because if anything goes wrong in the Windows kernel, you risk trashing your Linux kernel the same applies for the Linux kernel trashing the Windows kernel.

Before you go and so Linux never crashes or Windows never crashes, what you're relying on is that this particular project has enough of an understanding of both kernels that they can cover every circumstance where there would be a negative interaction.

I'm not saying this can't work, I'm just saying I'd be very careful about running it on anything I cared about.

Re:Serious Doubts...

[Bender_]

Well, both Linux and Windows have come a long way. I think it is pretty safe to assume that neither the WinXP nor Linux Kernal will crash. My concerns are rather regarding coLinux which still seems to be in alpha stage..

Re:Serious Doubts...

[caluml]

before you go and install this on your non-backed up mission critical server.

Phew - that was close. Thanks man - I could have had a catastrophe on my hands tomorrow.

Re:Serious Doubts...

[lkaos]

And this is the key. I actually trust both Windows and Linux reasonably well. I don't necessarily not trust coLinux either. But this is definitely a very dangerous piece of software so I'd give it a little bit of time to ensure that it is indeed safe.

And now the most important question...

[the cobaltsixty]

Torrents anyone?

Re:And now the most important question...

[Anonymous Coward]

yes AARR ARR KILL KILL DEATH please.. MURDER DEATH KILL *SCREAM* *LICK*

Oh, you said Torrents and not torrets..

Porting to other platforms like OS X and solaris

[caseih]

According to the web site, the architecture of the software that makes this all possible is very portable and could be ported to Solaris, for example , allowing the running of Linux/Sparc on top of it, at full speed. I would love to see this ported to OS X. I love my powerbook and I like OS X, but running linux at the same time would be a huge benefit for me. I'll be following this project closely.

Emulation and virtualization are the coolest technologies I've ever seen.

clustering

[battjt]

Clusting with something like MOSIX just got easier.
Joe

Kinda cool, but...

[frink_exp]

do you think this might convince the not-so informed that linux is just an application that runs on MS Windows?

Re:Kinda cool, but...

[Anonymous Coward]

Heavens, no!

Nearly everyone knows that Windows is an operating system, and Linux is a toy.

Don't you worry your pretty little head about that.

Re:Kinda cool, but...

[The One KEA]

If they haven't realized that from all of the Linux publicity lately that it's an OS, then they probably won't be able to be reasoned with one way or another.

LKML? Bad name...

[imsabbel]

Lets call it beer, as in opposite of wine :)

Re:LKML? Bad name...

[lkaos]

LKML == Linux Kernel Mailing List

This project is called Co-operative Linux or CoLinux for short.

Re:LKML? Bad name...

[Anonymous Coward]

beer, as in opposite of wine :)

Wouldn't the opposite of wine be vinegar? Or possibly water?

Re:LKML? Bad name...

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a little known fact that the opposite of wine is actually the Goodyear blimp.

Will this replace cygwin?

[Apreche]

Will I be able to use this as a replacement for cygwin? I'm a dual boot kind of guy. Will I be able to somehow use this to mount linux filesystems (reiserfs, xfs, ext3/2) in windows? Or is it just like dual booting without the rebooting?

Just a question ?

[Ploum]

Does it runs wine ?

Because some people want wine, so I wonder if it possible to run wine under colinux.

And, wait, what about colinux under wine ? ...

hmm...

[neko9]

interesting. in this screenshot kde clock shows 12:16 but clock in windows systray 12:18...

Re:hmm...

[The One KEA]

So? It's just basic clock drift. Why is this an issue?

Re:hmm...

[neko9]

it's strange because my linux box is running 7 minutes ahead of my windows box. and every day gets faster and faster :-)

Re:hmm...

[Anonymous Coward]

They're on the same machine! Did you read the article? Or the description, even?

Installing ?

[z0ink]

There isn't very much documentation, anybody figure out how to get this all running under XP ?

Does this mean

[StringBlade]

...now we need to change the Linux penguin category icon to a Borg penguin like the Borg Gates one?

Cygwin/XFree86 can run rootless

[EnglishTim]

I have it running rootless all the time on my home machine. It works very well. As far as I remember, it's just a case of running it with the -multiwindow flag.

Wrong way around

[Simon Lyngshede]

Now this is just stupid, why would I run Linux on Windows. What we need it coWindows. In my world that makes a lot more sense... Well actually no, I have no real use for Windows.

I guess you could use this for testing something or trying out Linux, but I don't really see the application for coLinux. I would never recommend people who wish to try out Linux to run it like this, nor do I recommend using vmware. If you want to try Linux, do it right, remove the Windows safty blanket, it is the only thing that will teach you to use Linux.

Different?

[bluewee]

How is this different than Cygwin?

Re:Different?

[strags]

My understanding (and I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm mistaken!) is that cygwin provides a set of Win32 libraries that provide reimplementations of Linux functions that are necessary for a Linux app to run. Essentially, Cygwin is a platform that your app can be ported to (generally by simply recompiling), that happens to run under Windows.

What we're talking about with coLinux is the ability to run native Linux binaries as is with no need for recompilation.

Re:Different?

[owlstead]

Cygwin is just Posix libraries for Windows really, with some added tools and a familiar unix folder structure underneath.

What you do not have in cygwin but (very probably) will have in coLinux:

• full linux file system (/dev and /proc are missing for instance)
• running of linux applications and libraries without porting
• true linux process management, every process it launches is a Windows process (which wreaks havoc on control characters like [ctrl]-[z])

Furthermore, this would be great for running linux on non compliant hardware. If you can run linux using Windows sound and video drivers, you can be sure that the linux demo at your friends house on his just new computer will run smoothly. Without you having to compile the latest video drivers for over an hour.

Still, I would not expect network support etc. right at the first go. VMware isn't an expensive commercial application just for nothing. They will get into some difficult problems I guess.

Re:Different?

[Jon Abbott]

cygwin provides a set of Win32 libraries that provide reimplementations of Linux functions that are necessary for a Linux app to run.

Yes, that is correct. You can think of Cygwin as being like Wine, but exactly the reverse (i.e. a UNIX-like layer running on Windows, as opposed to a Windows-like layer running on UNIX)...

Re:This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 hap

[Anonymous Coward]

I can just picture myself booting knoppix to make my (Anti-PowerPoint) presentations at school.

I also can picture the beatings.

Exactly the inverse of Win4Lin, if....

[Anonymous Coward]

If there is a company like NeTraverse that makes this thing as usable as Win4Lin, it's gonna be a killer app.

BeOS

[paradesign]

Isnt this kind of like what the BeOS did back in the day with its personal distro? Im thinking R4 and 5.

ive always wished i could run linux like this, it made trying the BeOS that much easier, and now it runs as the only os on my P1 ThinkPad.

Re:BeOS

[Jeremi]

Isnt this kind of like what the BeOS did back in the day with its personal distro? Im thinking R4 and 5.

Kind of, but it's different too. What BeOS did was overwrite the running Windows OS image, so that after you double clicked the "Launch BeOS" icon, you had a machine that was running BeOS but not running Windows anymore. When you launch Co-operative Linux, on the other hand, you end up with a machine where both Linux and Windows are running, concurrently.

(FWIW, the BeOS overwrite-the-host-OS trick only work under Windows 9x, because NT-based flavors of Windows have memory protection that presents that sort of aggressive behaviour ;^))

But which OS sees traffic?

[placeclicker]

Is it possible to route network traffic to Linux instead of windows? Or even route it to Linux BEFORE windows?

This will last about 15 minutes...

[Anonymous Coward]

just until Microsoft's programmers add code to W2K to ensure that any such Linux kernel is corrupted.

BTW what happens if W2K crashes? How is recovery?

anyone with compiled binary?

[gl4ss]

*Release Name: 0.5.1-2.4.24

Notes:
This is a very preliminary source-only release.

It is mostly for peer review, but with some effort it can be compiled and run.

Please note that Cooperative Linux is not yet stable on some processors and hardware configurations.*

Coop Linux?

[Lost Dragon]

So where's deathmatch linux?

Maybe I'm missing the point

[Alcemenes]

I don't mean to sound like a troll but I just don't see the point behind this. Perhaps this will make Linux more accessible to the average Windows user but I think it will only cement further the idea that Linux is simply another Windows application (I have been asked this before.) I think using projects such as Knoppix is a better way to introduce people to Linux. If this works, great but at this stage I just don't see the point.

imagine beowulf of those!

[porky_pig_jr]

sorry, couldn't resist :-)

Try to imagine beowulf of linuxes inside the single instance of Windows. (I can't)

Re:Porting to other platforms like OS X and solari

[Isbiten]

What is it that you need have Linux for that you can't already compile yourself?

For XP/2000 only

[Artifakt]

It's a bit disappointing that this won't run on older Windows boxen. After all, one Linux advantage is how some distros will keep older systems useful for years to come, and free users from the continueous upgrade model beloved by MS of late. This runs the risk of becoming Linux yoked to that model, unless its creators specifically preserve Win 2000 compatability, and given how disappointing 2000 was, what are the chances of that? 2 versions down the road, this will probably only run with Longhorn.

Re:For XP/2000 only

[Bender_]

it does probably only work on NT based systems. 95/98/ME are DOS based - I doubt the kernel will ever allow any elegant implementation of colinux.

I also do not understand your disappointment of 2000? IMO its the best windows version out there - really stable and still quite lean.

Re:For XP/2000 only

[Artifakt]

I wasn't thinking of my personal dissappointment with 2000, rather that of the customers in general. 2000 has had poor sales. Possibly people using 98/98 SE often make the false assumption that it is in series with theirs and don't see why they should trade up after just 2 years or something like that, but for whatever reason, it's just not much of the market (last I looked). So, this program is mostly useful for running Linux on an XP system. I don't see much difference between "XP or nothing", and "XP or a infrequently encountered variant". If this Linuxoid had run on NT 4.0 through XP, I would have probably seen that as a whole lot different from "Just on XP", but this looks like only a little different instead of a lot. Maybe colinux does run on older NT versions, but the website says 2000 or XP.

wisdom of MST3k

[sunrein]

One of my favorite MST3k quotes is: "Don't show a good movie in your bad movie." so... "Don't run a good operating system in your bad one."

Re:already been done before.

[codealot]

I'll bite... how is SFU deficient compared to Cygwin?

Even solaris....

[Zugot]

comes with bash now. tcsh was great, but bash is nicer IMHO.

I don't get it

[caluml]

It looks just the same as Cygwin. What is/are the differences?

Re:I don't get it

[makapuf]

I think the difference is the Kernel : cygwin uses the win32 kernel to run cygwin programs as win32 applications (which they are), as colinux runs a linux kernel as a win32 application, whic in turn runs applications.

Finally.. a way to run Linux

[jvagner]

on my ACPI-non-compliant notebook.

It's not that great.

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't want to start a holy war here, but what is the deal with you Cooperative Linux fanatics? I've been sitting here at my freelance gig in front of a Cooperative Linux box (a Pentium III/800 with 256 MB of RAM) for about 20 minutes now while it attempts to copy a 17 Meg file from one folder on the hard drive to another folder. 20 minutes. At home, on my Pentium Pro 200 running NT 4, which by all standards should be a lot slower than this computer, the same operation would take about 2 minutes. If that. In addition, during this file transfer, Netscape will not work. And everything else has ground to a halt. Even KDE is straining to keep up as I type this. I won't bore you with the laundry list of other problems that I've encountered while working on various Cooperative Linux boxes, but suffice it to say there have been many, not the least of which is I've never seen a Cooperative Linux box that has run faster than its Windows counterpart, despite the Cooperative Linux box's faster kernel architecture. My 486/66 with 8 megs of ram runs faster than this 800 mhz machine at times. From a productivity standpoint, I don't get how people can claim that Cooperative Linux is a superior solution. Cooperative Linux addicts, flame me if you'd like, but I'd rather hear some intelligent reasons why anyone would choose to use Cooperative Linux over other faster, cheaper, more stable systems.

Re:already been done before.

[placeclicker]

It's closer to VMware then it is to cygwin.

Re:Porting to other platforms like OS X and solari

[Anonymous Coward]

You're... you're already running... OS X is...

Dammit, you already have a flavor of UNIX! What do you need Linux for?

Re:This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 hap

[danalien]

I have to agree it's great stuff.

Even, as a hardcore linux user as myself; but I didn't start as one, no sir ye'; *got 10+ years of M$ experiance under my belt*; moving to linux was just the next logical step in my quest for more knowledge; switching for someone like me was 'a day in the park' and within days I'd assimilated & familiarized myself to operate it as I have done with M$ ....

Why I think this is a great thing/idea; is that I'm rather aware others haven't got neither the interest(s), willingness, or nor the brains; to take such large steps as to switch OS, and/or dualboot.... And nor have they deep pockets, no switch to eg. Apple & Co, no.

For these people, bringing them the 'cool & neat stuff' is the way to go. For them a 'long term transition' is absolutely the right choice & course to help them out of harms way ;-)

/* let's face it, M$ are monopolistic & rather narrow sighted (kinda like when you where a baby/child), and playing fair with others just isn't it their interests, if they can't benefit the most out of it. Beeing the 'First' is what they are & strive for, 'second or third ... etc' isn't in their reach of understanding that it's 'OK too' - if someone would ask me to describe Bill Gates & Co in short, I'd say:

"He & Co are rather the incarnation of a 'Pharaoh & +5000 b.c Egyptian dynasty era'; on the sole quest of resurrecting 'Pyramids & pyramidic thinking...' & 'Domination'. Why? Because it's the only right thing todo, and you're either with them, or against them!"

(ps. I speak only what I see) */

So someone, offering a 'middle stepstone' toward OpenNess ... is a honorable quest, *FromMyPOV*.

unlike wine

[ShadowRage]

this will encourage more cross-platform development
towards linux, and when people see the develepment tools available for linux, it could spark more of a liking towards linux, which is a very good thing, so not only does this make it easier to go into linux, it also provides a demo of a linux operating system so to speak.
this will also anger bill "it's mine! gimme!" gates.

the problem with wine is, it's getting too big, too bloated, (the source, compiled and unclean, is over a gigabyte.) and less functional, it actually seems to be stepping backwards, and encourages more windows development and a temporary fix.
hell, if wine got any bigger, it would be just like windows.

I think this is a better strategy to interest people in free software. show them a window (no pun intended) into the opensource world, and if they like what they see, then bam.
instead of throwing them headfirst into linux, them getting horribly confused and running back into windows.

Re:This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 hap

[adrianbaugh]

My dad would have done the same - so I didn't tell him. I made lilo wait for 2 seconds at bootup, no prompt - he never noticed the delay (or the small decrease in the size of his hard disk ;-)) and all I had to do was press L-Shift "linux" and I was away.
It was extremely useful later on when I had to recover some data for him...

Israeli contributions to OSS

[katz]

Interesting you mention Mosix (and by extension, Open Mosix). Yet another important Israeli contribution to world of OSS (bidi, open mosix, colinux...)! Seems like Israel becoming important in the open source world; It is already a potent force in the tech world, with heavy investments by Intel and Check Point.

On more somber note: Too many slashdot-freenode-gimpnet-kuro5hin folks use Israel-related news updates as soap boxes from which to launch their anti-Israel diatribes. Even tech writers
Perhaps if there is not already some pro-Israel article on Israeli contributions to OSS, someone out there (anyone here an IGLU member?) could help me write one?

Roey

Been Waiting So Long - Still Waiting

[gbulmash]

This has the *potential* to be a very cool project. Right now it's at 0.51 release status, source only, with no docs. Only a small percentage of users will be able to get it up and running in this form. Once it hits 1.0, or even 0.9 and is stable enough, I'll be more excited.

- Greg

Then people can ask is it a virus?

[Anonymous Coward]

No it's Linux.

hmmm

[XO]

Now, I've read almost 200 comments on this thread.. (that's all there is so far).. but has anyone actually seen this operating?

Call me skeptical, but I just don't see it working well.

I see the points (good and bad) for it all, but I just don't see it working well.

Their logo

[r_picmip 5]

Can they get in trouble for using that multi colored wavy window thing? Just curious.

Why?

[blkros]

That's my question. To me this make Linux look like just another app that you can install on windows, and have fun playing with.
I think that stuff like this actually sets Linux back, and doesn't move it ahead. Linux is an OS, not an app.
The real work to be done is to make Linux better than windows, in every way, and make it easy for people to use. Linux doesn't need more apps, it has most of the ones that normal users would need, and DTP and Graphics progs are getting to be on par with windows and mac. What Linux needs is to get a handle on the dependencies issues, that plague installs. That's the major problem I have with it, and that most people have as far as I can see. (Yes I know about apt, etc., but not all distros have it.)

Blessing or Danger?

[Masarand]

This is a neat trick, but it might be *bad* for Linux.

The downside is that Microsoft continues to own the platform and users are *less* likely to want to move from booting Windows to booting Linux (because they don't need to.)

On the other hand, MS are terrified of people running Windows inside Linux (with VMware) as this provides a natural way to migrate from Windows (being used by at least 1 Fortune 500 in a big way.)

For me the bottom line is that I admire these guys achievement, but think this is a threat to Linux and Open Source.

Strangely flat bandwidth graph (OT)

[caluml]

I just followed the links on the lkml.org homepage, and found the MRTG bandwidth stats for the machine it runs on.

That's some weirdly flat incoming bandwidth, don't you all think? What could it be? Some P2P thing?

Re:This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 hap

[starm_]

Makes me think of the SunPCI card I used to have at work. We were working on sun workstations running solaris but our computers contained SunPCI cards.
These were basicelly PCs on a card. You just had to type "sunpci" in your terminal and the SunPCI card would boot with windows and it would display in a Xwindows window. It would use a 2GB file on the sun hardrive for its hardrive.
It was uselfull for e-mail and words and stuff like that. We didn't have to clutter our desk with a PC. and it worked in hardware so in didn't use all the processing power to run 2 OSs at the same time.
I wonder if you could run these cards on Linux.

Screw Your Parents, /. Nerdies!

[Master of Transhuman]

I'm impressed by the technical achievement here (once they actually get everything working, anyway).

These guys are running a daemon in ring 0 along with Windows, and playing nice with the hardware (letting Windows handle it) and emulating a few things so they can boot a Linux distro on top of a running Windows! This is fucking amazing (to a non-OS-system-programmer like me, anyway)! I thought User Linux was a cool - if not terribly useful except for security and kernel development - hack. This beats that all to hell.

Re: "duel" booting

[skyhawker]

If you're going to pick on somebody for a spelling error, you might want to try running your own post through a spell checker before posting -- to wit: "stat" (start) and "charicter" (character). Stat might be tougher to catch, because it's a real word -- just the wrong one. I guess that's like "duel."

Friends??

[SlashDotAgent]

First thing I always do for my friends is uninstall MSN messanger immediatly! They are always greatful.

Re: "duel" booting

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't picking on anybody you twat, just thought it was an entertaining idea. So feel free to, you know, go fuck yourself.

OT: Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Chops]

SFY 3.5 is a deficient product, and probably made so.

I'll second that. I installed SFU to try it out, and found it to be so bad as to be endlessly entertaining. The high points of my interaction with it were this (the first line indicates my discovery that tab completion didn't work):

$ tar xfz ../mutt
usage: tar -{txru}[cevfbmopwBHLPX014578] [tapefile] [blocksize] file1 file2...
$ tar xfz ../mutt*
usage: tar -{txru}[cevfbmopwBHLPX014578] [tapefile] [blocksize] file1 file2...
$ zcat ../mutt* | tar x
tar: Failed open to read on /dev/rmt8: No such file or directory
zcat: ../mutt-1.4.1i.tar.gz.Z: No such file or directory
$ cd ..
$ gunzip mutt*
$ cd src
$ tar xf ../mutt*

... and the time I typed

vi `which startx`

... only to have vi attempt to open

C:\SFU\X11R6\bin\startx^M

... which, as you might guess, didn't work (it choked both on the C:\ and the ^M).

Good times, good times. Also it broke cygwin's emacs-style line editing (presumably by changing some terminal-related DLL) and WinCVS (by setting EDITOR=vi systemwide). Fortunately both of these problems went away when I uninstalled it.

Re:OT: Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Anonymous Coward]

SFU may very well suck, but if so it's not because you don't know the difference between regular tar and GNU tar. That is your fault and yours alone, kiddo.

Re:OT: Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[cscx]

GNU tar is not the same as standard UNIX tar (i.e., UNIX tar is missing the -z switch in your case) as another reader has pointed out. You should know that before complaining.

You probably want gzip -dc file.tar.gz | tar xvf - ... works like a charm *every* time.

tar zxvf will work on Linux but not on many unixes.

E.g.,

User Commands tar(1)

NAME
tar - create tape archives and add or extract files

SYNOPSIS
tar c [ bBeEfFhiklnopPqvwX@ [0-7]] [block] [tarfile]
[exclude-file] {-I include-file | -C directory | file |
file} ...

This is on Solaris 9. A very modern Unix OS. /dev/rmt* is the standard tape device. (TAR = Tape ARchive)

Re:OT: Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[Chops]

GNU tar is not the same as standard UNIX tar (i.e., UNIX tar is missing the -z switch in your case) as another reader has pointed out. You should know that before complaining.

Right, and some people find the standard Unix tools so incomplete and irritating that at least one Solaris admin I know installs GNU tools on his Solaris machines so he'll have a workable environment. This guy got his start on UNIX, and he likes GNU's tools better because they're more featureful (among other reasons). I've heard this is fairly common, and one out of two real UNIX admins I know personally does it.

I was interested in SFU specifically for its properties as a GNU/Linux-like environment; if it's lacking features I expect from that environment, I really don't care whether the explanation is "That's the historical behavior of a system you've never used" or "We felt like getting high that day, and didn't implement it."

Additionally, defaulting to /dev/rmt8 instead of stdin, on a system that doesn't have /dev/rmt8, is simply a bug IMO, regardless of the historical behavior.

This message is bitter enough to look like a flame, but really it isn't; you should imagine :-)s sprinkled liberally among it until it looks like I'm more tolerant of non-GNU cultures than I really am.

Re:OT: Re:Windows Services for Unix...

[cscx]

If you want a GNU environment I suggest you use CygWin instead then.

Re:Porting to other platforms like OS X and solari

[caseih]

Developing for multiple platforms simultaneously. (OS X, linux, and windows via wine via the qemu x86 linux emulator). I already have compilers on OS X to target linux (x86 and ppc) and windows (mingw), but for the linux targets, I would love to be able to test binaries right there as I'm working.

Besides I just like Linux better (it's more transparent; OS X may be unix, but it's almost as opaque as Windows, no pun intended).

I currently do have the entire gnome 2.4 desktop up and running (on top of my quartz desktop) and that's nice. But there are just some things having linux around for would be nice.

Karma whoring the post

[Anonymous Coward]

Posted By: da-x
Date: 2004-01-05 21:11
Summary: coLinux beta runs a full Debian system on Windows

I've successfully ran a full almost unmodified Debian system on Windows using coLinux, along with the cygwin XFree 86 server that allows me to start a Linux desktop across the virtual network interface between coLinux and Windows.

Screenshots, sources, and binaries of the first coLinux beta will soon be available on the website.

--
Not really a Karma Whore, cause I'm posting anonymously. If I'd had any Mod points I would have Mod the parent up as informative

Re:BORG Linux? ...

[Anonymous Coward]

Heh; actually, that might be a good name (maybe 'cyborg linux' to avoid trademark/copyright issues--after all, "borg" is their special, shortened, trademarked version of "cyborg" ...) and as we all know the one thing Linux lacks is a marketing department (well, I guess we have IBM now... but you know what I mean).

In the mean time, I'm trying to imagine a "penguinizer" (not unlike the inverse of that "depenguinizer" ...) that gives you more Linux in Windows, with all the goodies... and fun stuff, too. For reasons I cannot explain, I just imagined a rabid little GNU/RMS gnawing on an IE logo...

Even OO.o?

[tepples]

My Dell laptop has no problem at all running knoppix

Have you tried starting OpenOffice.org from within Knoppix?

Re:This is quite possibly the greatest thing 2 hap

[LoveTheIRS]

hey don't make me feel bad, I know of at least person that switching is a lot harder, A whole new set of commands to remember with tons of switches, I remember buying Mandrake like 6.2 or something and having a really ugly UI and it only would run Quake 2 in software mode and I remember spending hours trying to figure how for it to work in mesaGL and finally reading that it was impossible,( the nv driver hadn't been around or matured or something).

4 years later the programmers have sorted out my hardware but what about new stuff. What about all those people who really can't figure out how to get all the cups servers stuff to print and can't figure stuff out a whole S load of other stuff. What about all those things that are supposed to work but don't. Sure things have been easy as pie for you but others have had to go through the agony of the drivers not working, non-stardard hardware that they didn't know about in their computers, (it was pretty obscure and they didn't think it would be a problem then it turned out to be neccessary for the whole system.) What about the disk partitioners that screw up! and you lose everything(albiet you have a backup).

Indeed I am now after finally giving a huge finger to Windows 98 I am running Linux. But I tried many times b4 I had enough experience to really be able to use it. Linux is not easy, not at all. A modern example of stuff to cry about is the fact that adobe's acrobat reader doesn't work on modern linux's and that the gpdf that gnome has doesn't print or allow editing of pdf files. I have to manually pdf2ps and then ggv if I want to be able to get to kind of print them. That is RIDICULUS! and I know some people who would switch right back out of irritation. Please enlighten me if you can if you know of a modern open source pdf program that can edit or print.

And also stop making the switch seem like a piece of cake. Because really it is not. Don't you dare insult my brainpower, unless you are noting that I am not studying for my Physics midterm tomarrow. A now adept Linux User

Robert Eckhoff

Re:Porting to other platforms like OS X and solari

[calica]

Have you tried Mac-on-Linux?

Will the slowness scare people away?

[laserone]

Is there any chance that people who try Linux for the 1st time this way will be scared off because the performance will not be as good as pure linux? I mean, if it's running on TOP of a windows OS, it sure won't be lean and fast. I think alot of people are interested in Linux because of how lean and reliable it can be. But Linux on top of Windows can't be lean, and it can't be any more reliable than the windows install underneath. (?)

A newbie who doesn't know better may say "eh, this ain't no faster" and go back to what he/she knows (windows).
???
Laserone

Why all the excitement?

[Cereal Box]

Don't most geeks have two (or more) computers? My setup is a Windows machine for the desktop and a FreeBSD machine for server duties and other things. With the price of building a computer being so low, it just kind of seems pointless to me to bother with things like dual booting or tricks like this program just so you can get Linux apps working on a Windows machine.

already been done

[attonitus]

The guy that was running dozens of operating systems on the same machine was running most of them under Virtual PC on a powerbook.

Not nested though, so there's still a mountain there to climb.

obligatory simpsons post..

[MrPotatoeHead]

this post just reminded me of that simpsons episode where they're cloning animals and homer says something like...

"now we can clone a pet with the cleanliness of a dog, and the personality of a cat"..

man homer makes me laugh.

Re:Porting to other platforms like OS X and solari

[caseih]

I have to run OS X. Linux is not well supported on the Powerbook 12". The combination of the unsupported Power Management Unit and the NVidia crappy Go5200 means that there's no sleep or any kind of power management for linux, which makes it not really useable as a laptop, sadly. Also Airport Extreme will not be supported (broadcom crap) anytime soon.

So I have to go the other way (linux on mac). OS X works very slickly in terms of the wireless and the sleep/suspend. Works so much more reliably than windows.

Comparisons: coLinux, cygwin, SFU

[Anonymous Coward]

Cygwin provides a UNIX userland, with some restrictions. It's based on newlib, derived from a BSD libc, rather than glibc like most Linux distributions. A lot of stuff that would normally be in a UNIX kernel is faked in user space. Mappings are made between UNIX and Windows, and in some cases they aren't sufficient and stuff falls apart. Performance also sucks because of this. Fork/Exec works like you would expect it to on a modern system (ie. lousy performance), and I/O takes a while to go through all the mappings. Cygwin is a UNIX-like target that you can port to, but it's relatively difficult because of the quirks. On the plus side, most of the utiliies are the familiar GNU versions, so for automation and simple tasks it feels like a Linux system, which is very convenient.

SFU (Microsoft Services For UNIX) is a first class kernel personality that takes advantage of the Windows NT microkernel architecture. Performance should be excellent. In a lot of ways it is like Mac OS X. Two notable differences: first, the microkernel is designed primarily for the Win32 personality rather than the UNIX personality. Theoretically it should be possible to design a microkernel that isn't biased to any particular personality, but in practise it hasn't happened yet. Second, all the Mac OS X userland stuff maps to the UNIX kernel personality, whereas the primary userland of a Windows system today is (almost?) always Win32, which doesn't use SFU at all. From a user point of view it comes with mostly BSD userland and utilities, which may feel strange to Linux users.

coLinux is another breed; it puts a monolithic Linux kernel inside the Windows NT kernel. From an elegance point of view, it isn't. As a systems designer, I'd be offended, because I'd think that the people writing the other OS would be incompetent and would crash my nice and stable OS. Mostly they don't touch each other (except in case of errors), but some hardware, the MMU in particular is shared. On the other hand, performance on stuff like fork/exec will be great, since it uses a highly optimized Linux kernel to do all that. I/O will be a bit slower, because it has to be virtualized through the Windows drivers. The big advantage is that this isn't merely UNIX-like, or even an alternative flavour of UNIX, this is an actual fact honest-to-goodness Linux system now. It runs plain Linux binaries, has a Linux userland, and uses all your favourite Linux utilities and programs. I wouldn't run Apache on it, or run it on my IIS server, but for a workstation or home PC I'd do it in an instant.

UMSDOS?

[conway]

Anyone remember booting linux from dos, with a UMSDOS filesystem?
True, its not quite the same (linux actually took over the machine, just the FS resided under a DOS directory) but this seems to be a similar silly trick.
UMSDOS fs was slow as hell, while this solution promises not just to be slow as hell, but also get all the .. ahem .. advantages of running as a user process under Windows..
Why would I ever want this?

Wasted breath

[Zork the Almighty]

Why this does seem quite cool I want to offer a warning before you go and install this on your non-backed up mission critical server.

Anyone who run Windows on mission critical servers will probably do it anyway.

3d hardware ?

[S3D]

What about OpenGL ? Will it run in software mode or actually use 3d hardware under CoLinux ? If it will, will it use Linux OpenGL driver or Windows OpenGL driver ?

Re:Porting to other platforms like OS X and solari

[Isbiten]

You could use Microsoft Remote Desktop Connection instead. I don't think that emulator on emulator is very fast.

See also...

[Ed Avis]

Everyone knows about Cygwin which is a POSIX layer and distribution of GNU software for Windows. You can compile and run a lot of packages, including X applications.

Line
takes this a step further by running unmodified Linux binaries on Windows, but it's not currently an active project.

ISTR that one of the 32-bit DOS extenders (EMX perhaps?) had some wacky scheme to run the same binaries on Linux, Windows and OS/2.

aMSN

[SenseiLeNoir]

Fr your friends, aMSN runs under Linux very well, and has SOME advantages over the Windows version (log in to more than one account at the same time, know who is blocking you, check to see who has you on their buddy lists, etc)

It has some disadvatages too (lack of uPNP support - makes it difficult to do file transfer/etc via NAT, no picture or custon emoticon support, no shared games)

but its enough for me.

This reminds me

[ByteSlicer]

What ever happened with Line?
It claimed to be able to do something similar (running unmodified Linux applications in Windows). I came across it a few months ago, but was dissapointed that its development apparently ceased in 2001.

Vapour Ware, HOAX, FAKE

[fygment]

Here's what you see on the download page: a gzipped tarball and no instructions. There are no binaries on the download page. Open the tarball in Windows w/zip and the readme's aren't readable. No documentation on installation, etc.

Conclusion: it's a fake.

To OSS developers: if you don't have the time to dcoument your work, then it is irrelevant to a "community". Why? Because a work of science or engineering should be able to bear the scrutiny of at least the community of your peers. Obfuscate if you will but don't whine that the value of your work isn't recognized.

Linux Constrains

[fygment]

I sit down in front of a Windows box and immediately feel constrained. So much I just cannot do...

Funny, I feel the same way in Linux. Sure, I can recompile my kernel, change my themes, and experiment with modifying app source code ... but can I upgrade software without hours of searching for missing libraries? Can I open a document written by the dominant word processor without a multitude of format errors (an important feature if you work in the real world at all)? Can I even not have to upgrade my OS every other month because that's the only way to get rid of the bugs in my current OS? The answer to all the above is NO. Sorry but Linux constrains me by forcing me to become a hacker/code-monkey.

Mod me down, but my computer is a tool not my way of life.

Re:Linux Constrains

[Anonymous Coward]

umm.. if you're not upgrading windows AT LEAST every month, then I guarantee you your desktop is a piece of crap.

As for the other questions, the answer is YES.. it's easy.

Re:Linux Constrains

[Peaker]

but can I upgrade software without hours of searching for missing libraries?
Huh?

This is so much more powerful in GNU/Linux distributions now than it is in Windows.

Debian, for instance, has apt, which is far more powerful than any Windows installation software.

Upgrade is a snap, and unlike in Windows, a central piece of software upgrades the thousands of software packages you have. You don't have to click the custom-made (closed-source inefficiently recreating the same update-code in every piece of software, that is) "Update" in each piece of software.

Chicken, egg...

[quinkin]

This is one of those fascinating conundrums of Open Source. You end up in the position of needing the docs to learn how the hell to use it so you can write docs of your own.

Sometime the code comments are enough, sometimes they aren't. Japanese might be a problem. :)

Q.

Anyone tried...

[MoThugz]

continously looping each OS within each other yet?

ie. Run coLinux inside Windows and then running bosch (or at least wine) running Windows... and repeat the process.

It'd be nice to see whether the end result is a kernel panic or a BSOD :)

this is great!

[sad_]

can't wait until people start running windows programs with wine through colinux to prevent reboots of windows after installation of programs :P

Not exactly

[Peaker]

The drivers run unmodified in the host OS.
They receive their IRQ's through interrupt forwarding, and the Linux kernel itself is modified to not access I/O directly but via host-API's.

Dangerous?

[Peaker]

Well, ofcourse since Linux runs in ring0 it can trash Windows.

If Windows trashes the system then you're screwed whether or not you run CoLinux on it.

The idea is that CoLinux does not do any I/O or have any drivers (which removes the dangerous part) nor does it touch physical memory in a way that's likely to interfere with Windows.

All physical memory is allocated from Windows via Windows' API's and only in a very extreme bug could the Linux virtual page tables be messed up so that they end up pointing at Windows pages and those pages get messed up in a bad way by yet another bug.

Most CoLinux crashes yield a double-fault which is handled by special code that can safely shut down the CoLinux virtual box which is totally harmless to the hosting Windows.

To actually crash Windows in CoLinux is very unlikely.

Hardware access via Windows

[Peaker]

CoLinux does not access hardware directly.

It uses the API's of the host OS.
It can mount its own Filesystems on block devices that are actually files on the host OS.

By writing a virtual file system driver that simply uses the host OS FS api's, you can "natively" access the Windows file system in the coLinux binaries. This means that Linux will access the NTFS data via Windows, and it can have its own ext2 block-device-over-file as well.

This is quite powerful and much nicer than cygwin which requires a lot of work per application ported.

soiling machines

[spir0]

I still don't understand how people soil their machines with Windows.

These guys should be punching people in the face and giving them a good OS

And this is supposed to be proof?

[Peaker]

Two executables can later load the same DLL's and hand control to them.

Under the hood of the COM objects, this is pretty much what happens.

Re:And this is supposed to be proof?

[Awptimus Prime]

blasphemy!