Dell Offers FreeDOS With New PCs

Zed writes "Showing a distancing of itself from Microsoft, Dell now offers businesses a chance to purchase computers without a Windows operating system. The N-Series computers start at $319 from Dell's website and ship with a FreeDOS CD in the box."

Comments

Is this new?

[bsharitt]

I may be wrong, but didn't they start this a long time ago?

Re:Is this new?

[SubTexel]

Nope, you are right. They have been doing this for quite some time, they also offer Linux as an alternative as well.

Re:Is this new?

[frdmfghtr]

Yep, back in 2002...

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=1534

Re:Is this new?

[jlevitsk]

I thought so too. I just bought one of these. Came in 5 days from when I ordered it too. Very spiffy and then I threw Debian on it.

Re:Is this new?

[Chuck Bucket]

I just found out about this a few weeks ago, it changed my plans of rebuilding my current box; for 319$ (or a little more) I can have a ~2.6Gig box with those nice/quiet Dell cases. The fact that I don't have to buy MS on it turned me around, it'll be our new main workstation running Gentoo Linux.

Next I'll think about replacing my server! At ~300$ I can't afford not to upgrade!

CB

Re:Is this new?

[JPriest]

And were are not without /. saying Dell is trying to "distancing of itself from Microsoft". Myabe Dell is only one small step away from throwing down the windows flag and offering only Linux as an option? No, I don't think that is it. I think someone is just spouting off at the mouth. Zealots are blinded by the way they want things to be, not the way things are.

Re:Is this new?

[falsified]

Everyone says that Dell uses shitty hardware, but I haven't noticed this at all. I dropped an old, metal answering machine (as in from the 80s) from about eight feet right on the mousepad and after I ran chkdsk or some similar program, the Inspiron (and hard drive, save a bit of free space) worked just fine, including the mousepad. I run Win2k on this computer, and I've had to restart this thing maybe four times in the past year, mainly due to a problem that the NVidia card has when I try to play some DOS games, which is to be halfway-expected since I'm running a post-DOS version of Windows. (The fact that I have an always-on notebook says something about heat management as well, I suppose; also, I haven't checked for an updated NVidia driver since I bought this computer, so the "shitty hardware" assertion is inaccurate here.) They also have prices on laptops that, last time I checked, aren't matched as far as major brands go. Every week or so, on their online store, they throw in a bunch of freebies and rebates as well.

Maybe I've just gotten lucky, and maybe their desktops aren't as hardy as their laptops.

Re:Is this new?

[flyfishin]

Not according to the FreeDos site.

"Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only."

Re:Is this new?

[ScrewMaster]

No, I'm afraid that the original poster was the intelligent one. Obviously, "as far as you know" extends only to the limits of your olfactory appendage. My company used to use custom-built rack-mount equipment for the industrial data acquisition systems we develop, but now we've begun buying off-the-shelf HP/Compaqs, Dells, and others. And while the quality is better than the old Packard Bells, they do use thoroughly oddball, non-standard, user-lock-in components. That's the name of the game. Where you're getting these "integration is standard" systems from I don't know, but it sure has hell ain't Dell.

Furthermore, if you're depending upon Dell's warranty to save your ass when your motherboard blows its zap, I feel sorry for you. You're far better off (if you have the technical skill) to buy some high-quality, truly off-the-shelf components and put together a real PC that you can maintain yourself.

Re:Is this new?

[AstroDrabb]

While I cannot stand MS, I'd have to agree here. Dell is so far up Billy boys butt, it isn't even funny. I think Dell just offers a few poorly packaged PC's without MS software in the same manner that a teen would rebell against his/her parents.

I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products. We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.

Re:Is this new?

[Xabraxas]

From the FreeDOS website:

Chuck found that US customers can purchase Dell systems with FreeDOS: Perhaps this is old news but browsing on Dell's Small Business site, I noticed that they are now offering select systems bundled with FreeDOS. From the web site: The n series features select popular models from the DimensionTM , OptiPlexTM and Dell PrecisionTM desktop lines sold without a Microsoft(R) operating system. Offered for IT professionals who want control over operating system development and installation, n series desktops are available with a copy of the FreeDOSTM open-source operating system included in the box, ready to install. Update: (16 Jan 2004) This may look like a repeat, but it's not. Before, FreeDOS on Dell wasn't available to US customers - it was Canadian customers only.

Re:Is this new?

[AstroDrabb]

I don't know if Dell does it for thier home PC's, howver the do use some non-standard crap on thier workstations. I have 3 Dell Optiplex PC's and 1 Precision in my office. The power supply went on one of the Optiplexes and I wanted to get it back up fast. I ran down to CompUSA to expense a power supply and brought the old one. I could not find any power supply to fit. It had to be ordered from Dell. Also, the Precision I have uses some crappy duagher board which again, prevents me from using most standard cases if I wanted to put it in some other non-Dell box. Don't get me started on the insane price Dell charges for memory.

Where I work we have a corporate support contract on the Dell desktops so we have to go through Dell to get our memory. I wanted to add an extra 512 MB of RDRAM and Dell wanted over $500 for it! You can get it on the net for half that price. The same thing for DDR. Go to Dell's site and customize a PC and add about 256MB of memory to one. They will charge you over $100 when you can get in on the net for $40 or so.

Also, pray that as a home user you never need to call Dell's tech support. Your getting routed over to India and if you don't speak Hindi, your in for a rough time.

Re:Is this new?

[unitron]

Perhaps if you (and whoever gave you that "informative" mod point) would google for "dell non-standard atx" you'd realise that the proprietary problem is far from gone.

Re:Is this new?

[Sivar]

"Dell clones" do not exist because Dell does not make their own laptops. All PC vendors except IBM resell laptops made by Clevo, Arima, or some other Taiwanese ODM.

That said, it is entirely possible that the company you pointed to uses the same ODM as Dell, in which case it may indeed be easy to get more or less the same laptop for a lower price.

Interested parties may also look at www.powernotebooks.com and www.pctorque.com. These guys sell Eurocom and Sager (=Clevo) laptops at lower prices than many. It is a good way to get the same laptop, POSSIBLY MINUS SUPPORT, for a lower price.

Re:Is this new?

[Sivar]

What brand of motherboard do they put in these things?
Usually Intel (modified to use the proprietary Dell power supply)

What's the wattage of the Power Supply?
The wattage of the Dell power supplies is generally sufficient to run the Dell just fine plus a few hard drives and other upgrades. The problem is that they use proprietary power supplies. There is NO TECHNICAL REASON to do this other than to lock customers in. If you charge enough for a replacement unit, customers will probably just buy a new PC instead.
The power supplies are like ATX, and at least a few years ago used an ATX-look alike connector. They may have changed this, because plugging a standard ATX PS into Dell motherboards would let the smoke out of the PS, possibly the Dell itself.
Fun.

What kind of RAM is used? DDR Dual Channel? What brand is the RAM?
Dell usually uses major brand RAM--whatever they can get cheapest in bulk. Not an issue. The RAM generally uses conservative timings, but then, timings really don't matter for most applications beyond 1-5% performance.

What brand is the hard-drive? What is the rotational speed of the hdd? How much cache does the hdd have?
Dell often uses Seagate or, IIRC, Maxtor. Not an issue, really.

Sounds like a decent deal as long as they are using decent hardware.
Decent Dells (i.e. not the super cheap systems with integrated video, etc.) use pretty good hardware. The problem is that the pretty good hardware is also pretty proprietary. Some parts are interchangeable, particularly with their overpriced gaming systems, but you buy Dell for the support (on paper at least) and because they are cheap. If you are a business, you buy them because they are a major OEM and give great support if you are a big buyer. And because they are cheap.

Dells are not meant for geeks that can build their own system from parts. They are meant for the other 95% of people that want a little black box that just works, and if it doesn't, has a toll-free number to call for help.

Re:Is this new?

[Schmucky The Cat]

Where I work we have a corporate support contract on the Dell desktops so we have to go through Dell to get our memory. I wanted to add an extra 512 MB of RDRAM and Dell wanted over $500 for it!

If you can't use the old RAM simultaneously then just stick it in a drawer or velcro it to the interior of the case. When the machine needs servicing, put the old RAM in.

Compaq pulls that same deal. We put 1GB chips in a bunch of servers that were ordered with 128MB. Compaq didn't want to service the machines but the old RAM was in a desk drawer. Put it back and let the whiny Compaq guy work on dog slow 128MB machines.

Re:Is this new?

[scott_davey]

We just got in some multi-million dollar SANS from HP and they threw in a bunch of dual Xeon 3.2 GHz w/HT, 2GB, 136GB U320 Raid 5 Linux servers. HP has Open Source drivers for the Gig cards and even drivers/software for thier HP Lights Out management app for the Linux servers. With Dell you don't get any of that.

Actually, last year we bought a bunch of Dell PowerEdge 2650s with RedHat 9 (and then had to purchase RHEL only six months later because of that end of life bullshit...but that's another story).

Anyway, Dell has a really good installer that asks a couple of questions, then installs RedHat with all the right options for the hardware, including Dell's drivers for their gigabit ethernet card and RAID 5 config. It even included a custom hardware PNP lookup file with identifiers for all the components in the server that aren't in the standard distro.

Dell also have their management interface for linux, which does everything the windows version does.

I was quite impressed with Dell (Not so much with RedHat over that end of life thing)

Re:Is this new?

[gilesjuk]

But I bet Dell still pays Microsoft a fee when they sell a FreeDOS PC.

Re:Is this new?

[rhadamanthus]

"I personally think that only HP, IBM and Sun are any of the big boys PC makers that offer real non-MS products."

Out of curiosity, when you purchased these servers, was a windows CD included? Numerous times I have bought a "linux" server from HP or Dell, only to find out I payed for a Windows OS anyway, it just was not installed...

YMMV, of course

--rhad

Hmm

[pyite]

Because 8 bits are better than none?

Re:Hmm

[runderwo]

DOS, and the 8086, are fully 16-bit in design and operation. The only thing 8-bit about them is the 8088's peripheral bus. The decision to use the 8088 rather than the 8086 in the IBM PC was made in order to cut costs for peripheral manufacturers.

I for one

[iswm]

Am glad someone made the move.

FreeDOS

[vwjeff]

OK, what can I do with it??

Re:FreeDOS

[NanoGator]

"OK, what can I do with it??"

You can operate your disc system. Duh.

Re:FreeDOS

[Howard Roark]

You install Linux on it.

If you read the fine print carefully, you will discover that the N series systems actually ship with no operating system installed. They include a FreeDOS media kit in the box. This way you don't have to pay any Microsoft tax on the machine. I suppose you could use the FreeDOS to test the machine before you installed the Linux distro of your choice,

Re:FreeDOS

[foonf]

What will actually happen is the vast majority of buyers will install pirated copies of Windows. In fact, Dell probably assumes that will happen, because there aren't that many people who want to run Linux on cheap desktops, who would actually buy prebuilt machines, but there are many more who would love to save money on software they can easily download or "borrow" for free.

Re:FreeDOS

[LinuxHam]

How about putting the OS you purchased a license to use on your old boxen, that's not currently being used?

Those licenses are not transferable. You can't even blow away a PC and reload it with another copy of the OS you bought with it.

Re:FreeDOS

[C10H14N2]

The Microsoft tax appears to be $109. The cheapest stripped down Dimension 2400 I could build was $428. The Windows version upgrade license is $99. Personally, if I WANTED Windows pre-installed, I'd prefer to be charged $200 for a full copy non-vendor-locked copy, thankyouverymuch.

FreeDOS?

[placeclicker]

What kind of home user uses a command line only OS?

Re:FreeDOS?

[TheRealMindChild]

The idea is that it is "Free", and probably doesn't violate some obscure Agreement Microsoft made Dell agree to, to not sell Linux or such, to be able to sell Windows at all.

Re:FreeDOS?

[arrow]

What kind of home user uses a command line only OS?

Now THAT is a stupid question to ask on slashdot.

Re:FreeDOS?

[Via_Patrino]

Another probably answer of why they don't, sell with Linux but with FreeDOS is that they need to offer little support or none at all.
If you sell a computer with a software you need to support both, and supporting FreeDOS is much easier than Linux

Re:FreeDOS?

[larry bagina]

why would you dual boot into FreeDOS? There are a handful of DOS emulators/vms than run FreeDOS from within linux.

Re:FreeDOS?

[Jacob0531]

Or, more precisely, it's free and doesn't violate the agreement Dell made (and all other MS OEM's) to not ship a PC without an operating system. Microsoft made this agreement under the assumption that if a PC was shipped without an OEM OS the user would install a pirated, or non-licensed, version of Windows on it.

IMO, This is great

[HappyCitizen]

Its good to see at least one PC Retailer distancing itself from Microsoft. I thought that I read somewhere that Microsoft will not allow you to distrubute windows if you distrubute another non-microsoft OS as an option. Maybe it was just Linux. That connects with my second question:
Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux?
If its because of some MS rules, then I understand. If not, they should include more options.

Eather way, they are allowing an OSS OS to be bundled. GOOD LUCK TO DELL!

Re:IMO, This is great

[piznut]

Supposedly, you can get linux pre-installed. My assumption is that it will cost extra since it is Redhat Enterprise WS.

Their website seems pretty light on the details about linux but this page tells you what systems it is available for. Then again, anyone who actually wants linux on a desktop machine probably knows how to obtain and install their favorite distro anyway.

Re:IMO, This is great

[afidel]

Because FreeDos requires zero setup, configuration, or implied promise of driver support. It would be very unlikely that someone could come up with a support call resulting from shipping with FreeDos but very likely that one might result with the inclusion of a Linux distro. There isn't any margin in a $300 PC for support.

Re:IMO, This is great

[queen of everything]

Wal-Mart has had a cheap workstation for sometime that you can purchase without an OS, or get it with Lindows (I think). They aren't available in stores, only on their website, but its good that there are options out there.

It'd make a great little server to play with

Re:IMO, This is great

[kindofblue]

The real reason, as quoted from a CNet article on Aug 13, 2002:

The new desktops appear to be a slick interpretation of Microsoft's new licensing terms and a way to navigate customer demand for PCs without an OS installed. The Microsoft licensing terms, which were put in place on Aug. 1, specify that PC makers must ship PCs with an operating system. The new policy exists to prevent piracy and to better track OS shipments.

Re:IMO, This is great

[Pharmboy]

Someone give him a point for the good, relevent article. One quote did bother me tho...

N-series PCs will cost the same as PCs that ship with Windows, a Dell representative said.

Which means they are technically charging you MORE for the computer, since they do not incur the cost of the Microsoft license. Or you can look at is as: "We charge you the same for FreeDOS as we do for Windows", which is kinda expensive for FreeDOS (I have installed it, its a mediocre DOS 3.3 clone by their own admission).

This does mean bigger profits for Dell, but it doesn't represent a better value for customers.

Re:IMO, This is great

[DeBaas]

Its good to see at least one PC Retailer distancing itself from Microsoft.

I'm not sure this qualifies as distancing itself. However, another big PC retailer (at least here in the Netherlands) that does this is NEC. We order PC there without Windows quite often, and they are delivered with freedos. Probably for the same reason.

Inquiring minds want to know

[The-Bus]

Do they at least still ship with the spyware? If there aren't 78 desktop shortcuts pre-installed, it's not a Dell!

Re:Inquiring minds want to know

[Sabalon]

$399, after a $100 mail in rebate. Give me a fuckin break. I am so damn sick of seeing "after a mail-in rebate" everywhere. It's at the point where I choose not to do business with companies that pull that BS.

This is news?

[Orien]

I know this isn't exactly new info, but if you look at freedos.org you will see that they have a news post about it. It has been available for a while now, but only in Canada. The news is that it is for US also now.

FreeDos is a cool project. You should check it out if you haven't yet.

A wake up call for Microsoft?

[bc90021]

Since Dell has half the market cap of IBM. which makes it a sizable company in its own right, Microsoft (granted, which still has a larger market cap than both combined) should realise that two of the biggest computer makers are trying to distance themselves. If they weren't already afraid of the free movement (whether it be Linux or FreeDOS!) they should be paying a lot more attention very soon!

justice dept.

[millette]

I wonder if it has anything with this January 16th document...

Re:justice dept.

[This is outrageous!]

Right... and this would be the relevant section (emphasis mine):

"Regarding the complaints concerning the difficulty of end users to purchase desktop computers without Microsoft Windows pre-installed, this complaint appears related to Marketing Development Program funds that Microsoft provides to OEMs. Under the MDP Microsoft provides financial incentives per units distributed to OEMs that meet specific milestone criteria established by Microsoft ( e.g., logo design, advertising copy). However, these MDP funds are reduced by $1 per unit if any desktop computer is sold by the OEM without a license to an operating system (Windows or otherwise). According to Microsoft, this provision is directed towards software piracy concerns. As structured, the MDP does not appear on its face to violate the explicit terms of the Final Judgment with respect to the pre-installation of operating systems."

Element Computer

[Deraj DeZine]

They're not exactly Dell (referring to the size, not the quality), but Element Computer has a strict no-Microsoft policy to avoid paying expensive licensing fees to Microsoft. All the computers they sell run Lycoris Desktop/LX (a Linux distribution). They've got some pretty nice computers for the price... now if only I wasn't so cheap...

What is the point?

[ryanmoffett]

While it's nice to see that there is an option, this seems like an empty gesture. Not to knock the FreeDOS project, kudos to you, there are SO many better offerings out there that could be packaged. What are businesses or home users going to do with FreeDOS? If anything this comes across like a message that says, "Here's your other choice, it's not really an option at all, is it?"

Re:What is the point?

[hazzey]

I read about something like this a while back. It seemed that Microsoft's arguments were mostly about having NO operating system on a computer(and therefore a pirated version of windows being installed). So what Dell is doing is just putting the lowest form of an operating system on it to get around that argument. That is a good idea because I'm sure that not everyone would want what Dell put on (RedHat/Suse/...)

Wee!

[NanoGator]

A small handful of people rejoice!!!

Re:So...

[bsharitt]

I think they are trying to avoid parts of their OEM agreement with Microsoft that bars them from shipping PCs without and OS, and FreeDOS is more neutral than picking a linux distro to ship with it.

Why not Linux

[Morosoph]

Why FreeDos Opposed to Linux?

Simple. Every linux distibution is readily available, and attracts zealots. Why offend them thorugh favouritism?

Re:Why not Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the answer may be even simpler than that.

In one word, "Support"

It's a lot easier (i.e. cheaper) to support FreeDOS than linux. You are still free to wipe the drive and install your OS of choice. ...I'm pretty sure that's what they expect you to do anyway. ...but this way, Dell doesn't get stuck supporting anything more complicated than FreeDOS on it's low end PC's.

More precisely

[ScottSpeaks!]

Here's a better link, from the FreeDOS.org site.

According to their news entries, this is new for US customers, but it's been available to Canadians for a while.

Re:So...

[FreakWent]

to run freesco from the HDD you need a booting fat32, free dos is nice and easy...

This doesn't explain why you'd buy it with a brand new Dell though.

When Dell stops this, and...

[Anonymous Coward]

When Dell stops this bullshit, and offers a windows delete credit across their entire product line (without invalidating warranties), then you will finally know that you aren't paying a full microsoft tax when you order a computer with Linux or some other operating system.

Uh

[SinaSa]

When I first read this article, I thought to myself "What use is FreeDOS to a current business user? Is this a flashback to 10 years ago, when DOS was still useful?"

Then it occured to me that obviously Dell is still just as scared of Microsoft as it was two years ago when they attempted to ship Linux. Microsoft doesn't care if Dell ships with an OS that isn't a threat really. They just don't want Linux in the mainstream.

Shame on you Dell!

Re:Yes but...

[amokk]

Well, you can always buy this PC for dirt cheap and then install a unlicensed version of Windows on it...

Re:Yes but...

[InodoroPereyra]

Yes but what can you honestly do with FreeDOS?

Not much, but it doesn't really matter. Dell is sending a message to Redmond, wait a couple weeks until they get a new deal with M$ ... everyone is doing this very same little trick these days, and I guess freedos is easier to support than linux for Dell while the negotiations take place ...

Required to have an OS

[ayeco]

They are required to provide an OS with the computer systems they sell. This is an OS, and saves the end user a buck or two. This is great.

Are they doing this for the pirateers out there?

[hoasis69]

Could be a brilliant Dell ploy to sell more systems to pirateers of Windows OS's since they'll save a bit with a free OS.

Re:Yes but...

[retro128]

I think the idea is so you don't have to pay the "Microsoft Tax". They're not putting Linux on because they're not prepared to support it.

So you can put on whatever OS you want and Dell doesn't owe you software support. Obviously, this deal is designed to appeal to geeks who want cheap systems.

FreeDOS.

[Oliver Defacszio]

FreeDOS! Great! Now I can run Telix 3.15 on my new 7 Flabblehertz PC!

Back in the real world, FreeDOS is about as useful as a deep-freeze in the Arctic circle. Are people supposed to learn to install an OS on new computers? What is this, 1987?

Re:Linux

[soft_guy]

I think he means "as opposed to FreeDOS which no one's heard of".

Maybe they figured that Linux folks could install Linux themselves and this way they aren't putting themselves at risk in case SCO wins their lawsuit. (Which is a very small risk, but maybe Dell doesn't see it that way.)

Plus, Microsoft *really* hates Linux. I still have some friends who work there ( I used to work there at one time), and they all say that the culture within the company is just an absolute hatred for Linux.

Avoids double dipping

[etymxris]

I believe the point has been mentioned before in similar threads, but it bears repeating here.

Many businesses already have licenses for all the software that they run--either a seat for every user or a site-wide license. For such businesses, a PC that comes with Windows is just wasted money. It would make sense to try to wrestle a discount from Microsoft when such a situation occurs, but monopolies are not often sympathetic to such things.

Re:Avoids double dipping

[captain_craptacular]

Actually most MS site liscences state that you MUST buy a copy of windows with each new PC. The Windows site liscence just covers upgrades...

off topic, but the 2 minute rule sucks.

Re:Avoids double dipping

[etymxris]

The Windows site license just covers upgrades...

No problem, these customers will just be upgrading from DOS :)

Off topic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Burning old women is never off topic. It's a necessary part of God's plan. Circle of life and stuff.

Re:Yes but...

[Orien]

That is a question that a lot of people are going to ask. The answer is, if you are asking that question then it is obviously not for you, but belive it or not there is acually a lot of uses for it, it's just a niche market that isn't going to be for the masses. It definatly is a great project though.

There is a lot of old DOS software that is still in use by people with old hardware that don't want to upgrade. Such as small businesses that can't afford consultants that still use the same Point of Sale equipment they bought 10 years ago. They can't afford an IT guy, let alone one that can set up a Linux system for them, and a new system would cost way too much. If their computer dies and they don't have the DOS disk anymore they can use FreeDos to install on another computer, or buy a Dell preloaded with it.

Another example are non-profit organizations such as churches, that also don't have money to spend on technology consultants and still try to use the software they already have. In fact I just spent Saturday morning at my church working on a DOS machine. They have a geneology library that is open to the community to come and do family history with, and they use old DOS software for it. Someone donated a 486 to them and I set it up so they could use their existing software. That one already had DOS, but if they get a computer in without an OS, or if I have to replace a harddrive, FreeDos will be the first thing I try.

Also on the freedos site they mention that freedos is used a lot by hardware manufactuers who need to make a bootable floppy do things like flash rom for bios updates and such.

Because they're really shipping it with no OS.

[AzrealAO]

It's intended for Businesses who have a volume licence agreement for x number of Windows Installs. This let's them buy new workstations without having to pay for a Windows Licence they already have.

AMD Next?

[Party_Pack]

Wow Dell trying to relax their ties with Microsoft, who knows we may see a Dell system with AMD hardware one day ;-)

What's it gonna take to get a Knoppix CD included?

[Dr_Marvin_Monroe]

I mean the choice is simple... This one CD has almost everything an average $400.00 computer purchaser would want. The 1 disk distro. has it all ready in "start from scratch" wrapper.

Nothing for grandma to get messed up with either. Tech support is dead simple.."hello, Mrs. Smigh? Does the computer boot from the CD?...you're OK"

This wouldn't even require formatting the drive....

FreeDOS is a cop-out...... If it's a "cost" issue on Dell's part...I could burn CD's at my house! I'm in for a stack a week.

Let's put together a special Dell CD distro. and ask Dell to distribute it with their OS-less systems. It could show real "good faith" towards a heartless company. It could also suck them into the SCO fun!

pool on when Darl McBride claims FreeDOS IP...

[vnv]

I would expect Darl will be on the scene shortly, perhaps within a week, claiming that FreeDOS is also owned by SCO.

I will enter my official guess as February 2, "Groundhog Day". If Darl appears and claims more IP, then six more weeks of IP winter will be upon us.

Re:Yes but...

[way2trivial]

perhaps not 'easier to support'
but litigation proof, should the FUD of SCO prevail

if I buy the system with a linux cd in the box and wind up owing licensing fees to SCO, I can complain to dell..

if I buy the box with freedos, and load linux, then dell has 'clean hands'

Not even close

[Anonymous Coward]

Try Walmart getting into the picture.

The blood is about to flow and Dell knows it. They are going to be slashing to the bone to prevent losing what could turn out to be major market share on the low end in the long run.

Eliminating the microsoft tax is one way of slashing, especially since it isn't a trivial tax. Better to test Microsoft now so they can prepare for the oncoming war, than to wait and lose market share.

Microsoft may dominate the market currently, but Dell sees the writing on the wall. It will only take one large distributor who doesn't have to pay the Microsoft tax to have a huge price advantage, and who will turn the market upside down.

This is simply Dell battening down the hatches before the storm.

Price difference

[ScottSpeaks!]

Dell's offering a $200 rebate on the comes-with-Windows model at the moment, but if you set that aside, roughtly equivalent sample configurations are priced as follows:

• Dell Dimension 2400N: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, FreeDOS: $369
• Dell Dimension 2400: 2.4GHz Celeron, 256MB RAM, 80GB HD, CD-ROM, no monitor, Windows XP: $599

The arithmetic is left as an exercise for the reader.

Re:Price difference

[DietFluffy]

Why should that $200 rebate be set aside in your comparison? Anyone who frequents the bargains websites knows that Dell always has these types of promotions for their windows boxes.

If you take into consideration the rebate, and the fact that dell charges tax on the 2400N (because it can only be purchased at dell business versus dell home for the 2400), you are actually paying the exact same price for the 2 configurations.

Don't be mistaken, you are still paying the Microsoft tax.

Re:Price difference

[claygate]

He knows that. That is why if you subtract $200 rebate from $599 you get $399. With the 2400N costing $369 and the Microsoft Dell costing $399, the Microsoft tax is $399 - $369 = $30. This is how I read it.

Re:It feels wrong.

[pla]

Its like having mcDonalds downgrade their free toy from a fun windup to to just a damn doll that doesn't do shit.

I prefer to think of it as getting a happymeal toy that lets you record your own messages, rather than just repeating "Can we go to McDonalds", "I love Ronald", and "Big Macs don't make you fat", over and over and over.


Realistically, you can do two things with one of these (and no, I don't include "install FreeDOS" as a viable option)... You can install Linux on it, or you can install the version of Windows you bought for your old machine (which, assuming you remove it from your old machine, you won't violate any likely-to-stand-in-court aspects of the Windows EULA).

Re:FreeWindows?

[bhtooefr]

ReactOS (formerly FreeWin95, a project to create a Windows 95 clone) is a project to create a Windows 2000 clone. It's at version 0.2 (just a couple of days ago, and I thought they hadn't made it to 0.1.6 yet). It'll have Wine in there to actually get decent Win32 support. BTW, the rosapps all run great on Win2K/XP, but they sucked ass on 0.1.1 when I tried it, which is good, seeing that they're coding against Win2K, and not ROS.

If there's no MS tax, why so pricey?

[thedbp]

Plutonium 1000
- Harddrive Upgrade to 60GB
- Internal Optical Combo CDRW/DVD
- Memory 512MB
- Model 17" LCD
- Processor Upg. to 2.66 Ghz P4m
- Software ProductivityPak,GamePak,SolitaireAce
- Wireless None
$1,938

iMac 17"
512MB DDR333 - 2 DIMMs
80GB Ultra ATA drive
Keyboard/Mac OS X - U.S. English
17-inch flat panel LCD
1.25GHz PowerPC G4
4x SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW)
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra
Apple Keyboard
Apple Mouse
Apple Pro Speakers
$1,899.00

iMac is cheaper, has a dedicated graphics card, a professionally supported UNIX OS, a better processor for any sort of media, better built-in software, a 4x DVD-R, and 20GB more HD space, not to mention the better design and compatibility with all sorts of other devices. Plus options for internal bluetooth, etc.

And people say Macs are expensive?

Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey?

[bach37]

And people say Macs are expensive?

Ah duh that would be a yes. You can make an AMD XP XXXX+ system for under $400 easy. Add a LCD if you wish and also DVD-R's are at $100, so you could have a kick ass computer for well under $1000, and half the price of that iMac. Sorry dude.

Scott

Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey?

[kamapuaa]

Wow, at those prices it's surprising that Element Computers (manufacturer of the ubiquitous Plutonium 1000 computer) can maintain their dominant position in the computer market.

Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey?

[jez9999]

Oh yeah, I guess you could run windows on your AMD XP XXXX+ and use Windows Movie Maker...not!

No, maybe not. Ya see, Windows Movie Maker is the 'Notepad' of movie editing on Windows.

But you could use Magix video deLuxe PLUS, Magix Movie Edit Pro 2004, Sony Screenblast Movie Studio, Ulead Videostudio, Pinnacle Studio, Roxio VideoWave Movie Creator ...

Re:If there's no MS tax, why so pricey?

[Moraelin]

Actually, no. I haven't stolen a single piece of software on my computer, and it's still cheaper than those macs.

Plus, there's something about being able to upgrade that PC as needed, instead of being locked into Apple's (or Dell's) lame "throw away the whole computer and buy a new one" scheme.

E.g., do I need new hard drives? Not really.

Do I need to buy a new OS _minor_ version every year, like you Mac fans seem happy to? Hell, no. This here Windows 2000 (full version, and yes, paid for) still runs everything perfectly. Maybe because unlike Apple, Microsoft can stick to an API, instead of blundering through "oh, this year we're using a completely different kernel" experiments.

Do I need a new LCD monitor with each PC, like you iMac lemmings get? Nope.

So putting that all together, it's cost me about 1000$ to swap a new mobo, an A64 3200+ and a Radeon 9800 XT into the existing computer. Even if I'm to add the price of the already bought 16ms LCD monitor (which is light-years ahead of the lame cheap-ass panel in the iMac), I still end up under 1500$.

And unlike the Mac, I can actually run games on this machine.

So what do we have? In one corner, the fastest (non-overclocked) gaming PC money can buy. In the other corner a lame iMac which is useless for anything except web browsing. No, thanks. I'll stick to my PC, and save a bunch of money in the process.

Haven't had a dead CPU _ever_, and surprisingly enough the memory was true to the specs printed on it. (E.g., surprisingly enough, if you were a cheapskate and bought CL3 RAM, don't expect it to run at CL2.) Also surprisingly enough, the machine booted on the first try. Go figure.

So, please... just because you're the non-technical kind who's terminally affraid to install a CPU, doesn't mean everyone else is in the same bracket. You stick to your Macs, I'll stick to my PC.

Re:Linux

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, Microsoft *really* hates Linux. I still have some friends who work there ( I used to work there at one time), and they all say that the culture within the company is just an absolute hatred for Linux.

So you're saying that the Linux community copies not only all the major productivity programs and the look and feel of MS OSes, but the corporate culture of hating the opposition as well?

Huh. ;)

I bet a large number of buyers will run MS on them

[MadAnthony02]

My guess is that a decent number of these will be bought by companies, schools, or other organizations that already have some sort of Microsoft site license. They will still pay microsoft, but won't have to pay for a machine with an OS, then pay more to install something over it.

The college I work at has an MS site license through a college consortium. We would buy PC's with one version of Windows then overwrite them with images of another, usually because we weren't ready to deploy whatever the latest and greatest OS yet. I'm sure a lot of businesses have site licenses for NT or 2k and aren't ready yet to deploy XP, and don't want to have to pay for XP licenses when XP would be wiped off 5 minutes after opening the box.

Re:Now how about...

[blixel]

...laptops?

Yeah that's what I'd like to see. I e-mailed Dell two months ago about getting a laptop without Windows XP on it and this is what they said: (in short they said tough luck)



> Problem Description:
>
------
I tried to purchase the Inspiron 5100 Notebook online but I noticed when I selected the option to customize that I was not able to remove Windows XP from the selection. As a long time "alternative operating system user", I have no desire to pay for an Operating System that I have no intention on using.
-------

Dear Sir,

Thank you for choosing Dell Online Customer Care.

I apologize for any inconvenience this matter may have caused.

Unfortunately, we are unable to assist you with your request.

Online Sales Center at 1-800-915-3355 ext 62032 or via e-mail
at:

DHS_On-Line_Order@Dell.com

System Specs

[ShipIt]

The specs on the $319 Dell:

- Dell Dimension 2400N
- Intel(R) Celeron(R) Processor at 2.4GHz with 400MHz front side bus
- 128MB Shared DDR SDRAM at 333MHz
- FreeDOS(TM) included in the box, ready to install
- Dell(TM) Quietkey(R) Keyboard
- Dell(R) 2-Button Scroll Mouse
- 40GB ATA/100 Value Hard Drive
- No Floppy Drive Included
- No monitor
- Integrated Intel(R) 3D Extreme Graphics
- Integrated Audio
- No Speakers
- Integrated 10/100 Ethernet
- No Modem
- 1 Year Limited Warranty plus 1 Year On-site Service

Beef up the memory a little and you got yourself a nice home file server or project box.

Why not Knoppix?

[poopie]

If companies want to ship a computer with a free OS, I believe tossing a knoppix cd in the box would be a good move...

Re:Why not Knoppix?

[Pharmboy]

I was thinking the exact same thing. I have been getting distro happy the last few months, trying several, and I have personally burned and given out several Knoppix CDs, including mailing them to relatives. Its the best for trying Linux, without having to install anything. I have used it a more than a few times to recover data, check disks, copy data, etc. from win9x disks. Wanting to find out how to modify and reburn it, to run it more in 'expert' mode rather than desktop mode, but loving the completeness of it.

I just downloaded featherlinux (70mb i think) to test it. Its supposed to be the best lightweight utility bootable CD version.

BIOS FLASHING!

[solios]

For all you froods who are all OMFGWTF WHAT IS THE POINT?!!!!!!!!!!!!!1, well... that's it.

Motherboard BIOS. Updates? DOS floppy or DOS onboard generally required. Not always, especially these days, but geeze. FreeDOS, I assume, will work just as well as DOS for this purpose.

I'm a Mac user and I know this! What's your excuse? ;-D

This benefits students

[sh0gun]

With Dell doing this they are really benefiting students that attend schools that have a deal with Microsoft. At my school all students can get Windows XP Pro for free from all of the computer labs on campus. Now if a student buys a Dell computer they can get one without Windows since they can get a copy of Windows free from school. We also have staff that will assist a student in installing Windows XP for free.

Seems like anything to save a couple bucks will be good for some students.

Re:You guys that question the OS keep forgetting

[taped2thedesk]

these guys probably allready own a crapload of licenses

Yeah, I'd bet that a lot of companies want to purchase all of their licenses through their MS licensing program - I believe my company specifically requires that new computers not ship with Office so that they can use a site-license which "simplifies license management and reduces TCO" or something like that. If they site-license Windows, they buy a (cheap?) license and get upgrades for the life of the license (I think... I stopped keeping up with the MS licenses a while ago)

The only reason FreeDOS is on there is because they can't ship hardware without an OS.

Re:Good Fucking Lord

[Saeed al-Sahaf]

I say boxii and viren, dammit.

Yes, but are you FREE enough to say with your NAME? *NOT* as an AC?

Re:Now how about...

[cixelsyd]

Same message here, totally bullshit canned reply. I tried calling them at that number, and hung up after about an hour... Best idea: just return the operating system =P

Re:Are they doing this for the pirateers... NO...

[AtariDatacenter]

Read their own words. "Ideal for companies with proprietary software images"

Remember the *double Microsoft Tax*? A large company pays to purchase a system (which has Windows), then they pay again for their special corporate image of windows? If they buy a system like this one, then they've got a single Microsoft tax. It makes sense.

And it makes sense for people who run alternative OSs, of want more of a kiosk, or perhaps have a MAME box they want to get going. For $320 with free shipping, that's one hell of a MAME box.

BTW: I found the URL given in the story a bad choice. I found this one instead.

NOT TRUE - License ARE transferable

[Wil63]

It all depends on the particular license vendor. In the case of Microsoft you can even sell the software on eBay, as long as you provide all the accompanying documentation and original discs etc. Microsoft only prevents this on versions specifically marked "Non-transferrable". check your EULA.

Not True. I work there

[Anonymous Coward]

most customers who buy n-series are buying because they are some kind of retail chain, like hollywood video for example, that uses a text based dos terminal or some such interface that is not windows. They usually buy these boxes by the hundreds, and getting them w/o an OS has nothing to do with Dell distancing itself from microsoft. the only reason freedos is there is so they comply with their agreement with microsoft not to ship a system without an OS. it doesn't have to ship with a microsoft OS, just some OS. posting AC because I work at dell

2400 with XP is MUCH cheaper than FreeDOS Box

[barcelona_stony]

Dells pricing makes little sense. Yes, if you configure the N-Series at its base price, it is $319, vs the $400 (Post Rebate) price of this weeks Small Business 2400 sale.

But, the SB 2400 comes with:
Pentium 2.4 vs Celeron 2.4
Good Keyboard vs crappy keyboard
Optical Mouse vs regular roller ball mouse
80 GB 7200 Hard Drive vs 40 GB 5400 HD
Floppy vs no Floppy
Speakers vs no Speakers
Modem vs no Modem

AND a copy of XP Home you can sell on Ebay.

So even if i'm installing Linux, why would I get the N-Series? Between the Pentium, Optical Mouse, Larger/Faster Hard Drive, (I won't use the rest but others will), I'd rather pay 400 for the better box.

If you price the N-Series with identical specs to this weeks 2400 Deal, the N-Series is 479 with the Celeron (no Pentium upgrade available).

Sometimes, Dell makes no sense.

Using FreeDOS to bootstrap a real OS

[DrHyde]

I recently used FreeDOS as a stepping stone to installing Linux. I have a Toshiba Libretto 50CT, and those little bastards have no built in floppy or CD. They *do* have PCMCIA floppy or CD, which are bootable, but only the BIOS recognises them so once the kernel has loaded and run - poof! the device disappears so you can't insert the second disk or load files off the CD or anything else useful.

But because FreeDOS, like MSDOS, uses the BIOS, it *can* read files off floppies, so I created a zip file of a minimal Debian installer plus pkunzip, loadlin and a kernel, used split(1) to break it into floppy-sized chunks, and copied it across like that. Ahhhh, swapping disks 20-odd times! That brings back memories!

Anyway, once all the data was on there and on a little DOS partition, I used loadlin to boot a kernel, load a root disk from a disk image, and then pointed the installer at the files I'd extracted from the recombined zip file.

A (slightly) more detailed account should show up on Linux On Laptops soon.

Re:I bet a large number of buyers will run MS on t

[inf0mike]

This will not work for Microsoft Enterprise Licence customers because the "site" licences are in fact upgrades for an OEM pre-installed version of Windows. In other words, if a business were to buy a machine with just FreeDOS on it, they would not be elligible to just install Windows.

According to Microsoft, you are not paying for Windows twice.

Dirty Play?

[maztuhblastah]

Although I respect Dell, I think that this may be a way of playing dirty. Picture this:

1)A Major computer vendor makes a contract with MS to sell the majority of their systems with Windows. The more systems they sell with Windows the cheaper the copies of Windows get for the vendor. The cheaper the copies of Windows get, the more money they make.

2)The vendor, one day, decides to try to knock it's Open-Source, non-MS loving customers off of their list of problems. They find the worst open-source distro (of anything) that they can find. Not bad enough not to boot the computer, but bad enough not to be feasible for day to day use.

3)They make a deal with MS that they will be able to sell X number of copies at FULL price in return for some sort of favor. MS oblidges and gives permission to the vendor to sell the non-MS systems.

4)The vendor ships low quality systems with a low quality open-source POS distro. Bill Gates chuckles and gets richer.

5) The customers who buy the systems buy them for the price (incredibly low without Windows.) Then they find that they have no easily workable OS. Since they are not enlightened, they only know of two OS's: Windows and Mac OS. Since Mac OS only runs on a Mac, they decide to get Windows.

6) They go back to the computer vendor complaining that they don't have Windows. The vendor says: "Oh, that's OK, I'll fix that." and sells them a copy of XP or 2k at the normal (non-OEM) price. To ensure repeat business, they give you a $15 discount because you just bought from them.

7) The end result? The customer thinks highly of the vendor (for healping him with his problem and giving him a discount.) The customer is dipleased with open-source software in general (because he is told that the "broken" distro he got is representative of the whole open-source world.) The vendor has killed three birds with one stone. The vendor has a good deal with MS, made more money from the customer, and hurt open-source.


Wow. I hope that if Dell is not already doing that, that they don't read /.

i'll bite.

[SubtleNuance]

Ok, Sivar, what is an ODM? What is this valuable distinction from OEM that us Non-MBAs are missing....?

Try comparing the iMac to _this_, then

[Moraelin]

Dimension 4600
Microsoft(R) Windows(R) XP Professional (not the default "Home Edition")
FREE TurboTax(R) Basic for Tax Year 2003
512MB Dual Channel DDR SDRAM at 333MHz (2x256M)
80GB Ultra ATA/100 Hard Drive (7200 RPM)
3.5 in Floppy Drive
Single Drive: 8x DVD+RW Drive
Combo: RecordNow! and MyDVD Deluxe (DVD+RW only)
Dell(R) Quietkey(R) Keyboard
Dell(R) 2-button scroll mouse
Productivity Pack including WordPerfect(R) and Money(R)
17 in E171FPb Flat Panel Display
128MB DDR NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Graphics Card with TV-Out and DVI
Integrated 5.1 Channel Audio
Stereo Speakers
Dell Media Experience
Dell Picture Studio, Paint Shop Pro Trial, Photo Album Starter Edition
Integrated Intel(R) PRO 10/100 Ethernet
56K PCI Data Fax Modem

The cost? $1,627

What do we have here? It's a good $272 cheaper than that Mac. Even though it has an 8x DVD burner, as opposed to the Mac's 4x. Also note that the DVD writer software and everything _is_ included in the price.

Even then, the comparison is already skewed. A more exact comparison would be a 2 GHz Celeron machine with el-cheapo SDR RAM. That's still faster than the G4, but not as overkill as the P4.

And still more useful than the Mac. On the PC you can actually play games.

Also note that it involves _no_ assembling stuff on your own.

Do I need to spell it out for you? Yes, the Macs are overpriced. Way overpriced. And for a lot of us, just plain useless either way.

Forget about Dell, buy a Sager with no OS

[clickster]

Sager laptops (which use the same components as Alienware and Voodoo laptops but in different cases) are cheaper than Dells if you're looking for a high-end laptop. Plus, you don't have to pay the Microsoft tax. Don't buy directly from Sager though. Buy from powernotebooks.com or pctorque.com. Both are cheaper than buying directly from Sager and, unlike Sager iteself, both have unbelievably good support (check resellerratings.com). That's one thing that no other PC company can match Powernotebooks and PCTorque on - service. The support people are actual laptop tech, not training room book-fed. They bend over backwards to help you and you get responses immediately. Not canned, pre-typed responses, actual e-mails/phone calls. I bought a Sager 4080. It has a 15" SXGA+ screen that has a glossy/high-contrast coating on it that makes it far clearer than a standard SXGA+ screen. It's hard to make out the individual pixels. It came with a P4 2.8 GHz processor with HT, 800 MHz FSB, 512 MB of PC3200 DDR400, 60 GB 5400 rpm hard drive, 128 MB RADEON 9600, and a built-in webcam. The whole thing only cost me a little over $1500. They also have a 5680 model that supports dual-channel DDR and has a UXGA screen and an 8890 model that supports 2 CD/DVD drives and 2 hard drives at the same time (running RAID). Or swap on of those CD/hard drives out with a 2nd battery. It also has a built-in TV tuner card. And a built-in floppy to boot. Anyway, I used to buy only Dell or Toshiba, but now I'm strictly Sager