Answers On LUGs, Life, and Linux in Iraq

Adam Davidson is an American reporter who has been in Baghdad for many months, and in his 'spare time' helped start Iraq's first LUG. We sent him your questions last week, and he's replied in great detail, not only about the LUG itself but also with a rare 'geek's eye view' of daily life in Baghdad, and comments about how the Iraqi IT infrastructure (and laws controlling it) are being (re)built.

1) Computer density in Iraq - by MajorDick

What is the density per capita of PC type computers in Iraq ? I mean how many people even own computers ? What is the average computer available for use in Iraq ?

Adam:

It's impossible to get accurate statistics for pretty much anything in Iraq. But I've found that most middle-class families do have a computer. Middle-class in Iraq means the senior bread-winner makes anywhere from $100 to $600 per month. Many businesses have computers. And there are Internet cafes that have sprung up all over the country and are wildly popular. So, most people who want to are able to use a computer as often as they'd like. The computers available are surprisingly up-to-date. Sana'a Street, the main computer shopping area, has dozens and dozens of computer shops where you'll find almost everything you'd need: late-model P4 or AMD CPUs. Decent motherboards, even raid, good hard-drives, some decent soundcards, etc. Good printers from HP, etc. There are a lot of low-end brands as well as the well-known ones. You can get most of the gadgets you'd like: USB memory keys, digital cameras, portable harddrives, flat screens, whatever. And anything you want that's not in stock can be shipped in from Dubai in a week or so. The prices are far cheaper than in any other Arab country I've been to.

Most Iraqis have their desktop or tower computers assembled locally, from imported parts, of course. But you can buy full HP systems and a few other brands. It's also easy to buy pretty current laptops. A basic system--AMD, 256MB RAM, 40gig HD, is around $400. I just bought a fully loaded system for less than $1500.

I go to Sana'a street pretty often and it is always completely packed with people buying computer systems and parts. There is so much pent-up demand for so many things. Under the previous regime, import tariffs were so high that everything cost twice what it would elsewhere. Now, it's so cheap. And while many Iraqis are miserably poor, many others are benefiting from the current situation and are buying not only computers but their first washing machines, satellite TV systems, microwave ovens, and on and on.

2) Encryption - by onyxruby

For years strict encryption rules were an issue for Iraq. Has the US now stopped it's encryption restrictions for Iraq or do you simply get your crypto from elsewhere?

Adam:

I don't know too much about this. I'd check out Don Marti's coverage of the issue at LinuxJournal. But there is no regulation of software in Iraq now. There are tons of shops that burn you anything you want for about a buck a CD. I downloaded US-crypto here, because I'm a US citizen working for a US-based radio show and I figure I'm entitled. But I don't think Iraqis would even know what restrictions exist or have any idea how to follow them. That being said, security and crypto issues are not big concerns here. Most Iraqis just don't know much about them, since they're less than a year into using the internet freely. Under Saddam, of course, there was massive government restriction on what could be accessed and what crypto could be used.

3) What will the Iraqi government use? - by rueger

I'm presuming that any government computer infrastructure has been destroyed, and that they will be more or less starting from scratch.

Am I correct in assuming that Microsoft is in there big time locking down contracts to rebuild government computing sytems?

Adam:

In the massive looting after the war, pretty much the entire computer infrastructure of the government was stolen. I'm friends with the head of IT for the Ministry of Trade (one of the biggest users of computers in Iraq) and he told me that he had recently purchased 30,000 desktop workstations. Every single one was looted. So, yes, they're starting from scratch. My friend, the MoT IT guy, says he wants to deploy Linux. From what he knows, he thinks it's a much better fit for Iraq. It's cheap, adaptable, has good Arabic support. But he just doesn't know enough about Linux, since it was all but unknown in Iraq during Saddam's regime. I find that is typical--when I explain Linux to just about any Iraqi, they get it quickly and want it. Any company or ministry that had a server most likely used Unix and now wants to switch to Linux. And there is great interest in desktop Linux.

I know the guy who is Microsoft's sole agent in Iraq. He's actually a nice guy, lives down the block from me. He's having a very hard time. They are not as powerful here as you'd expect. First of all, since all software--including M$--costs a buck a CD, it's pretty much impossible to convince anyone that they should pay thousands of dollars for systems. Also, there is a general suspicion of large foreign corporations coming in and gobbling up Iraqi assets. So, people in the know are more excited about Linux. That being said, few Iraqis even know that there are operating systems other than M$. I've found exactly one Iraqi who has heard of Apple, and maybe a few dozen who've heard of Linux. So, just letting people know there is an alternative is a big issue.

The US occupational government, the Coalition Provisional Authority, uses M$ desktops and servers, as does the US-appointed Interim Governing Council. Most ministries are now using DOS systems. But the ministries are largely able to purchase things like hardware and software completely independently of the US. The Iraqi government has a budget this year of something around $12 billion and they choose how it's spent. The US government has made the decision not to alter the ministries too much. It's too much work in the short time before the handover of power to a sovereign government at the end of June. And the CPA is so overworked and out-of-touch with day-to-day issues at the ministries that I don't think they could force a M$ deployment even if they wanted to.

I do assume, though, that without any counter-pressure, the new Iraqi government will use M$ by default.

4) Can we help you in some way? - by herrvinny

Can we help you in some way? Old computers, networking equipment, webspace, etc?

Adam:

The Iraqi LUG has received several generous offers of support. I'd say that old computer equipment is not helpful, because so much new stuff is available so cheaply. They also don't need any more distributions. several people have sent distros, and I've become a one-man distro download center, since I have pretty fast DSL (believe it or not) and have been downloading the major distros and giving them to the iLug.

What the iLug needs most is:
1. Money.
2. Information.
3. Technical help.

The amazing iLug has some ambitious and exciting plans. They are planning to open a Linux Users Center in May. A generous ex-pat Iraqi living in London will donate space and some money to set up a place that can have a dozen or more Linux machines. It will be in a prominent location and will offer free or very cheap internet access, to lure people in. There will be trainings, tech support, meetings, to build up the base of knowledgeable Linux users. The space is centrally located and will, I'm certain, be extremely popular. Before the center is opened, the iLug is distributing one-page fact sheets in Arabic along with a CD of MandrakeMove to introduce Iraqis to Linux. They're handing these out on college campuses and on Sana'a street. I'm also hoping the iLug gets enough money so that its two directors, Ashraf Tariq and Hasanen Nawfal, can go on staff. These two guys are so impressive, so smart, ambitious, eager. But, like all Iraqis, they need to make a living. So, if there could be, say $500 a month for each of them, they could devote themselves full-time to Linux advocacy. That would be so wonderful. In their off hours--handing out distros and evangelizing--they've brought the membership of the iLug up from two to 70 in a couple months; it would be thrilling to see what they could do if they worked at it full time. The iLug also wants to create packages of information, along with copies of distributions, to hand out to IT decision makers at the ministries and private companies. So, a few bucks can go along way towards creating a well-informed, vigorous, and free computer environment in Iraq.

To donate, just go to the paypal link on the www.linux-iraq.org site.

Information is also very important. Don Marti, of LinuxJournal, has very generously arranged to have a lot of books sent over to Iraq. But many more are needed. They still don't have any kind of basic intro to Linux. They want to create a strong library for the iLug members and for the soon-to-be created Linux Center.

Technical help is also important. Having people the iLug can turn to for help would be wonderful. Since pretty much every Linux user is a newbie, it's not that easy to find someone who can troubleshoot. Also, as you can see, their website is pretty primitive. It would be great to have someone offer to design and build and host a more exciting one.

5) Domestic vs. Foreign Talent - by Evil Schmoo

Is the recent growth in your user group due to an influx of homegrown Iraqi talent, or are there more foreign users (ie, contractors) coming incountry?

Adam:

The iLug is almost exclusively home-grown talent. These are Iraqis who have never been outside of Iraq. It started with Hasanen Nawfal, this amazing computer programmer who somehow found out about Linux during Saddam's regime and got a copy of Red Hat (he now prefers Mandrake). This alone shows how curious and capable he is. It was all but impossible to surf the web freely or download much of anything on the crappy pre-war connections. He got his friend Ashraf involved after the war, and together they've been teaching others--mostly college and graduate students--about Linux. I haven't met any returning Iraqi exiles who know Linux or have gotten involved. The foreign contractors are locked away in secure bases and don't interact with the Iraqi population.

Iraq has very well-educated computer science population. Technocrats at the ministries and university professors and students. There are tons of people who know C++ and other languages. But they've been hampered by the lack of new information during sanctions and by the fact that Iraq had no software industry. There are plenty of people who designed computer control systems for power plants or databases and maintained servers. They're smart and experienced, but they have 13 years or so of catching up to do.

6) Legislative issues - by temojen

Given Iraq's clean-slate status:

How can the international community promote the freedom to use information technology for fair and lawful purposes (ie no DRM, free use of strong cryptography)?

Adam:

I think this is a major issue. It won't be answerable until there is a new Iraqi government (currently scheduled for June 30th at a former rogue state near you) and we are able to assess who is in charge, who is writing the laws, and how much influence the US will have in the process. My guess is the US will have a lot of influence and that copyright protection and it's scary cousins will have a major push. But, judging by the messy process of government-creation (see: salon.com article [Editor's note: Subscription or annoying ad required to view complete story]) it is possible the US will have to negotiate away some controls. I actually have no idea how to influence this process. The people who are currently rewriting Iraqi laws are US folks, many military lawyers who have never dealt with commercial or IP laws before, and they're so locked away in hidden offices in the CPA palace (formerly Saddam's Presidential Palace) that I don't know who they are or who is talking to them. I would say in reality that these issues are far down the list of US concerns right now. But with a new government and this huge market open for the first time, it's hard to imagine the US happily allowing the completely free system in place (there were no copyright protections for foreign companies under Saddam) to stand. I guess the usual: write your congressmen or something.

I think the best thing that can be done here is to inform the future Iraqi government about the dangers of certain kinds of laws. It would be difficult to find Iraqi decision-makers who completely (or at all) support the US presence here. The vast majority are extremely wary of the corporate colonialization of Iraq. So, I think this could be a real fight and there are no clear winners yet.

7) Infrastructure - by Golias

If one believes western media, Iraq is a nation under constant siege, in which the plumbing and electricity is absent for large swathes of the nation, and order is just barely maintained by the massive presense of unwelcome US troops. Also, many in the west believed that Iraq under Saddam was a very backwards and un-developed place (apart from military development), and one was not likely to find many computers at all, let alone connected ones.

So, as somebody who's actually there and actually knows what life is like for a techno-geek in today's Iraq, perhaps you could give us a detailed account about current network infrastructure, how easy or difficult it is to buy computer parts, how much Iraqi people (and Iraqi computer geeks in particular) use Internet technologies to connect to one another (e-mail, blogs, instant messaging, the web, etc.), what cultural attitudes in Iraq concerning the Internet, the global community, and the West, etc.

Most people in the United States (which is where most of the readers of /. come from) know very little about day-to-day life in Iraq. A detailed account would probably be very educational and broadening.

Adam:

Since I have to spend a lot of time convincing my mom that I'm actually a lot safer than she thinks, I know that the US impression of Iraq is way off. The truth is life here is quite normal. The streets are crowded (way too crowded, traffic is a nightmare), shops are filled with new consumer goods. Restaurants are thriving. Schools are open. People go to work, school, hang out with friends. You see the occasional American humvee or tank roll down the street, but other than that, it's hard to tell you're in a country under occupation and a guerilla war. Much of Baghdad seems like a normal, if poor, third world capital. Not too different from what I've seen in Latin America, say. There are wealthy areas, poor areas, kids playing, all that. A few months ago, I would hear a few explosions every night and a lot of gunfire. It became so common that we'd just ignore it. But these days, those things are so rare that we actually pay attention when they happen.

Middle class folks (who would be desperately poor by US standards), have decent homes, cars, most likely a computer. The middle-class and wealthy areas (like Jadiriya, Karada, Arasat, and Mansour) of Baghdad are extremely lively. Poorer people are pretty badly off. Unemployment is huge and underemployment is horrible. In the Thaura or Seven Palaces neighborhoods, people are lucky to make a buck a day and wouldn't be able to live without the monthly government food ration. They are unlikely to eat much meat--since that's not included in the ration. And they are certainly incapable of buying a computer or even affording the dollar-an-hour internet cafe fees.

There is a lot of fear in Iraq, but much more of bandits than of terrorists. Nighttime Iraq is pretty quiet. Only a few neighborhoods stay open after dark and the highways are all but empty. There is a lot of crime, car-jacking, murder, rape. The nights are bad and most ex-pats, like me, stay in the house. Wealthier Iraqis and ex-pats have armed guards 24-hours and never travel alone. Almost all Iraqis have a Kalachnikov rifle in the house to ward off burglars.

I can say that I've been in Iraq for most of the time since the war and I have never once felt afraid. I'm always cautious, probably a lot more tense than I am back home in New York, but I've never had any reason to fear for my life or safety.

The infrastructure stuff is a major hassle. Power is out as often as it's on. We, like many wealthy Iraqis, have a big generator, so we're able to stay on. But most middle class people can't. There is phone service in about half of Baghdad. The government ISP, Uruklink, is still operating and if you have a phone line you can get on line (assuming you have power). Uruklink does offer DSL service to a few neigborhoods. I have a 256K line that goes down a few hours a week and a few days a month. Yesterday we were down for most of the day because some guerillas cut the fiber-optic line. Most businesses and internet cafes opt for satellite internet connections. These vary in prices, but most likely cost a grand or so a month and are also not terribly reliable, unless you buy a very expensive system. Most Internet cafes have terribly slow connections and are down for hours a week for one reason or another.

But when they're up, the Internet cafes are packed. Pretty much every Iraqi I meet has an email address, even if they don't have a computer, usually through Hotmail or Yahoo. Iraqis love chat rooms and on-line dating services and porn, like everyone else. Male/female relations are so restrictive in Iraqi society. It's pretty much impossible for most single guys to spend any time alone with a woman who is not a relative. So, I think the titillation of the 'net is all too exciting. There is also a huge explosion in networked gaming. Those places are always packed with people playing games with folks from around the world. Some Iraqis even ignore the porn and actually try to figure out what the 'net is all about or learn about advances in their profession or hobby or whatever. I've found that middle-aged and older people are more likely to find the web strange and troubling and less likely to use it. Even more than in other countries, Iraq will soon have a massive generational digital-divide.

In short, Iraqis have access to everything, but it can be a huge pain. Of the iLug founders, Hasanen has a phone line and internet connection, Ashraf doesn't. Because of work and other pressures, Ashraf is able to access his email or read web-based Linux stuff only once or twice a week. Hasanen can do it every day. Not because Hasanen is richer or anything, he's just lucky enough to live in a neigborhood with a phone line. No average Iraqi has a fast-enough connection to download a distribution or even a large program. My DSL line costs a base of more than $200 a month (a fortune for most Iraqis) for a 128k connection and more than $600 a month since I boost the speed to 256k.

8) State Of Intellectual Capital - by RenegadeTempest

After living under totalitarian rule, what is the state of the country's computing talent? What disciplines have the strongest computing talent?

Adam:

Networking is probably most advanced. It's easy to find Iraqis who can build and maintain a complex network. There are plenty of people who know the basics of desktop computing. And more than a handful of decent programmers. But the coders don't have much experience, since they were limited to small custom projects. Also, the knowledge isn't too broad. Tons of people know C++, even more know visual basic, but few know any other languages.

9) IT jobs in Iraq - by Koyaanisqatsi

Out of curiosity, might as well ask someone who's in the field and there: what are the typical IT positions in Iraq? What skills are most sought after?

Adam:

Same as above. Networking is the main job here. there are lots and lots of new networks going up--all the ministries and private companies. There are a lot of computer salespeople with their own small shops. Unlike at say, CompUSA, the guy selling you your laser printer probably has a PhD in computer science. With all the money that's about to spent in Iraq (tens of billions this year), I'm sure there will be a lot more demand for network building and maintenance. It'll be a while before there's much of a home-grown programming industry, although there is and will be lots of demand for database and website creation. I can't imagine there will be anyone actually making computer parts any time soon.

10) Intellectual Property legislation - by Elektroschock

I read in other news that Iraq as under US occupation will get a copyright legislation written by a RIAA official. But nobody talks about software patents in Iraq. Will the United States pressure for a US style patent legislation in Iraq? I heard that patents are incompatible with islamic law. Some Muslims in my neighborhood were much in favour of free software because of religious reasons. Do the Iraqis LUG guys also believe that the GPL unlike proprietary software is according to Shariah law?

Adam:

There is certainly no problem between GPL and Shariah law. Ashraf, the co-founder of iLug, is from a very distinguished Shiite Muslim family. He's a sayed, a direct-descendant of the prophet Mohammed, and takes his religion very seriously. Actually, contrary to what I'd heard before the war and despite decades of secular dictatorial socialism, Iraq is an extremely religious place. Most people don't drink, no Muslim eats pork. As I wrote earlier, I think that it's way too early to tell what Iraqi property rights and patent laws will look like. I think it is best to assume the worst, but to support the iLug, which is the only group I know of in Iraq who advocates for free software. Things are so up in the air right now, all of this is so new (no Iraqi has had to think about intellectual property issues for one minute of their lives), that the decision-makers will be extremely sensitive to influence. It is an open book, but it will be closed soon, within months. Now is the time to support the iLug so they can be powerful advocates for good Iraqi laws.

Ashraf and Hasanen and I believe that good, open laws that avoid the hazards of absurd patents and DMCA style restriction would not only be good for Iraqi Linux geeks, but would be good for the country. This place is so poor, so behind recent advances in technology, but has such a base of strong, eager, excited computing talent. Only with the free and open ability to innovate and collaborate will Iraqi computer professionals and advocates be able to help make this place prosperous.

So, once again, go to www.linux-iraq.org and click on that Paypal button.

Comments

Crazy

[kahless720]

And i thought that nothing good would come from the war in iraq

Re:Crazy

[Random BedHead Ed]

I also disagreed with the war ... but while I disagreed, I always knew that there were huge benefits for Iraqis if the war went well. While I don't like the preemptive strategy, and think the assertions of nuclear capabilities and al Quaeda ties were way off target, Iraq could end up doing quite well sans-Saddam.

I found the tone of this interview really fascinating. It's good to hear from someone on the inside, not just about Linux and technology issues, but about the general mood and state of society there. It's especially interesting to hear that as long as the sun is out, this guy's not afraid to be outdoors. That contradicts a lot of what you might think about Iraq these days.

Re:Crazy

[stephenisu]

While I hate the devistating effects of war on people, in the end, many times it for the better. (note: I am not in favor of violence)

Seeing as we have already done the dirty deed, lets get to cleaning the mess up.

I propose that the slashdot, and free software community in general start lobbying IBM and the likes to fund a "grassroots" widespread Linux deploymeent effort in Iraq.

This would lead to software being a service industry providing many jobs, instead of a more commodity based system of importing Microsoft products.

This will put more money in the pockets of civilians than the big buisnesses over seas.

Re:Crazy

[dr_canak]

Say what you will about MTV as a media outlet, but they occasionally do nice bit of programming on the documentary side. Recently, they sent one of their reporters (Gideon Yago)to Baghdad to talk about post-war Iraq with teens and young adults.

http://www.mtv.com/onair/diary/

Like this interview, one of the fascinating things was to see the day-to-day activities being carried out by the populace. Yes there was gunfire as they walked, but there were also huge traffic jams (as the article points out), tons of shopping, kids playing soccer, internet cafes, etc....

There was also some nice interview footage of this reporter with Iraq young adults, young american soldiers, and military officials in charge.

Anyway, a good program, and very much not what I expected with regard to the state of post-war baghdad. From what we hear in the news, it's armageddon on the streets, but as these interviews show, there is far more to the story.

jeff

Re:Crazy

[david.gilbert]

I also enjoyed reading the interview. Any chance we could have the same questions answered by Ashraf Tariq and Hasanen Nawfal? I'd like to hear what they have to say too.

Re:Crazy

[Stephen Samuel]

From what we hear in the news, it's armageddon on the streets, but as these interviews show, there is far more to the story.

The big news media is about delivering eyes to advertisers, not news to the people. Peace On Earth and Goodwill to All Men does not get viewers. As such it does not get reported.

I've been on the inside of enough news stories to be clear that what's reported in the news is unlikely to be whe whole story, and not unlikely to be quite inaccurate.

Establishing the market

[ackthpt]

I know the guy who is Microsoft's sole agent in Iraq. He's actually a nice guy, lives down the block from me. He's having a very hard time. They are not as powerful here as you'd expect. First of all, since all software--including M$--costs a buck a CD, it's pretty much impossible to convince anyone that they should pay thousands of dollars for systems. Also, there is a general suspicion of large foreign corporations coming in and gobbling up Iraqi assets. So, people in the know are more excited about Linux. That being said, few Iraqis even know that there are operating systems other than M$. I've found exactly one Iraqi who has heard of Apple, and maybe a few dozen who've heard of Linux. So, just letting people know there is an alternative is a big issue.

Microsoft could take a page from Apple, here. Give away -- yes, give away software and training. Once Iraqis are dependent upon it then the can turn the screws.

How do Linux advocates combat this? Well, Linux and lots of the software that runs on it is also free, so training more critical. Got nothing to do over the summer and don't mind risking your life to put your money where your mouth is? Go to Iraq and teach people how to implement and use Linux.

I'm curious how long before this Microsoft guy figures the game out.

Re:Establishing the market

[God Takeru]

That's one way to guarantee your job security in a shaky market-- be the guy who volunteers to go to Iraq! Hell, most of the US soldiers I know aren't exactly volunteering for that position.

Of course, make sure you don't teach the Iraqis -too- well, or they might start outsourcing jobs there, too ;)

Re:Establishing the market

[back_pages]

Same thought occurred to me. Anybody who has paid attention to my other posts knows that I'm a bitter grad student in CS who despises the American job market. If there was just a tiny bit of organization over there saying, "Pay for your plane ticket, we've got a room you can stay in, we'll feed you, you just volunteer to work 50 hours a week promoting linux," I would be there by the second week of May (when this semester is over.)

I'm not making any significant money here in the states and I'd leap at the opportunity to participate in such a project. What I can't handle is the uncertainty of arriving somewhere and not having a clue where to begin. I'll volunteer, but I'm not a leader on day 1.

Re:Establishing the market

[corbettw]

Why not check out the Peace Corps? Maybe they can foot the bill for you.

Re:Establishing the market

[back_pages]

Not a bad idea - I had been seriously considered the US Armed Forces as a career move since you have to resurrect the dead in IBM Assembly to get a job here in the states, but have some reservations about that plan. The Peace Corps was suggested to me long ago but I had completely forgotten about it. Thanks.

Re:Establishing the market

[zellyn]

Why not?

Perhaps you know for sure that you wouldn't make a good leader, but perhaps you just need to think about things differently. Read some history and take note of the ages of famous generals and leaders when they first started to lead. It's surprising...

As for chaos and no structure... the nature of non-western countries is often uncertainty and lack of clarity, especially right after a war. I lived in Sarajevo, Bosnia, for 11 months in 98-99 (quite a while after the war) - you just have to get used to it. Having grown up overseas, I actually enjoyed the slower pace. At first, knowing you might have to spend an entire morning just to pay your gas or telephone bill is frustrating, but after a while you learn to just accept it, stop and have coffee on the way back, bump into a couple of friends downtown, etc. Dealing with any sort of bureaucratic agency (visas, passports, vehicle registration, etc.) is a real pain - you get a different answer every time you ask the same question. The trick is to keep asking until you get the answers you want!

If you're serious about going over there, perhaps you should look for agencies who might be willing to send you over there - I'm sure the ILUG guy would be able to give you some pointers. Just beware that many humanitarian organizations have a feeling of being there "on a mission", so if you don't like working all the time you might have to be very firm.

Re:Establishing the market

[hal9000]

Unfortunately (but understandably), the Peace Corps doesn't have a program set up in Iraq.

This is where they work

Re:Establishing the market

[back_pages]

Well, I'm just saying that I won't be a leader on day 1, not that I couldn't eventually be a leader. I'm just making the observation that I don't speak Arabic, though I'm well read on Islam I don't know the local culture, I wouldn't know where to begin, and I don't have the financial resources to kick around until I size up the situation.

I think that I am going to have a conversation with my girlfriend this afternoon about organizations like the Peace Corp (though not necessarily that exact org) where an educated yet unemployed American can see the world, do some good work, and gain employable experience. I've done extensive volunteer work in the past and am well aware of the "on a mission" philosophy. Thanks for the response though.

Re:Establishing the market

[the_mad_poster]

... I wouldn't know where to begin, and I don't have the financial resources to kick around until I size up the situation.

How do you think true leaders get motivated to action in the first place, hmmm?

Re:Establishing the market

[antiMStroll]

Microsoft could take a page from Apple, here.

Didn't Microsoft invent this tactic?

Re:Establishing the market

[Anonymous Coward]

So you want Sadam to be the Micrsoft agent?

Re:Establishing the market

[cymen]

I think what you really want is the Geek Corps: http://www.geekcorps.org/

It's been on /. before and maybe Wired.

Re:Establishing the market

[pavon]

I was thinking of checking out the peace corps, but now for some reason I think the navy might be the better way to go.

Re:Establishing the market

[XO]

lol, re: ressurrect the dead in IBM assembly. I would've shot Mt. Dew out my nose, if I had had a Mt. Dew nearby, when I read that one.

I hear that most programmers never really commanded 6 digit salaries here in the U.S... And I made high 5-digits last year, working in Retail. Hmm..

Re:Establishing the market

[XO]

I think drug peddlers actually invented this tactic. The first couple hits are free, you know. And Dave's not here, man.

Re:Establishing the market

[ahdeoz]

I may be a latent leader (I'm not the previous poster) but I know for sure I wouldn't make a good beaurocratic queue victim. It doesn't have anything to do with a "slower pace of life" or "non-western culture." In fact, death by red tape was invented here.

He should set up a vast file sharing system

[Anonymous Coward]

I doubt the RIAA is willing to go into Iraq and attempt to stop people. I saw on MTV that they sell pirated CD's and movies on the street in plain view.

Re:He should set up a vast file sharing system

[kahless720]

would the riaa have juristicion over iraq?

Re:He should set up a vast file sharing system

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, it's presently occupied by the US, so, sure. RIAA is always willing to expand the law to its fullest.

Re:He should set up a vast file sharing system

[telstar]

"I saw on MTV that they sell pirated CD's and movies on the street in plain view."

• You don't have to cross the ocean to see that ... just swing by Canal Street in NYC.

Re:He should set up a vast file sharing system

[thinkpol]

Pirated CDs and movies on the street? Gee, I'm pretty sure they do that in NYC.

Re:He should set up a vast file sharing system

[iSwitched]

With one exception, the pirates in NYC aren't openly armed with automatic weapons.

Personally, I would LOVE to see the RIAA go to Iraq and try and stop those guys ;-)

Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[strictnein]

Are their prices listed on pricewatch?

In all seriousness though, it's nice to have a little bit different viewpoint of life in Baghdad. I really thought that everyone must be staying home all day long, afraid to leave their homes, given the way the US media reports the conditions there.

Re:Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[American AC in Paris]

In all seriousness though, it's nice to have a little bit different viewpoint of life in Baghdad. I really thought that everyone must be staying home all day long, afraid to leave their homes, given the way the US media reports the conditions there.

...Iraq may not be the a smouldering pit of of doom and gloom, but it sure as heck ain't a fun place to be, either. Below is an excerpt from Baghdad Burning, an Iraqi blog:

Sometimes, sleep just seems like a waste of time and electricity. For example, the day before yesterday, our area had no electricity almost the whole day. Friday is our 'laundry day' so it was doubly frustrating. We stood around looking at the pile of clothes that needed washing. My mother deliberated washing them by hand but I convinced her it would be a bad idea- the water was cold, the weather was miserable and the clothes wouldn't even feel clean. We waited all day for the electricity and once or twice, it flashed on for all of 20 minutes. Finally, at 12 p.m., my mother stated, "Tomorrow, if there's no electricity, we'll wash them by hand. That's that."

...it's dated January 26, 2004.

This individual has both a computer -and- an internet connection, yet their daily life is still at the mercy of the highly unreliable power grid. It may not be hell on earth, but it's a far cry from anything even remotely pleasant...

Re:Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[ackthpt]

Are their prices listed on pricewatch?

In all seriousness though, it's nice to have a little bit different viewpoint of life in Baghdad. I really thought that everyone must be staying home all day long, afraid to leave their homes, given the way the US media reports the conditions there.

Doubtfully they're exporting, yet, as most of this stuff is coming from Taiwan, through Dubai. If you wanted to actually order from some shop on Sana'a Street you'd probably pay a ton in postage, get nailed with import duties, and it may never arrive.

Even needing to go so far as printing handbills advitising prices for local consumption is probably overkill. I would love to see some digital photos *hint* *hint* of this street and some shops.

As far as the media goes, Mr. Bremmer needs to get some people on the ground from CBS, NBC, ABC, CNN, etc and show the people back home how it's going. Though it might be counter-productive as media may still be a terror magnet.

Re:Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[duffbeer703]

I had similar experiences in Latin America and even New York.

Fact is, in most of the world, electricity isn't reliable. I'm actually shocked that in a place as chaotic as Iraq that there is a regular, if not unreliable power grid.

Maintaining a robust power grid is a non-trivial thing, even in a modern country. In a place like Iraq, after 15 years of blockade and a war & occupation, it seems like things are going quite well.

Re:Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[American AC in Paris]

I had similar experiences in Latin America and even New York.

Fact is, in most of the world, electricity isn't reliable. I'm actually shocked that in a place as chaotic as Iraq that there is a regular, if not unreliable power grid.

Yes, a reliable power grid is one helluva beast to keep running, and I'm quite aware that the powers-that-be have been working heavy-duty overtime to fix it. I'm not suggesting that the grid should be a reliably back up and running by now; I'll be surprised if the job is 'done' before the end of summer. Rather I'm simply stating that it is still a big problem, despite the continuing efforts to fix it.

There's a difference between spotty power in Iraq and spotty power in Latin America, though. Before the war, the power grid was fairly decent in Baghdad; washing machines, TVs, and other appliances were standard household fixtures in many areas. Since the invasion, there is a large chunk of the population that has had their lifestyle radically altered by the sudden degradation of the electrical infrastructure.

When you've gone all your life with spotty power, it's no big deal to you. When you're used to having electricity most of the time, a year's worth of extended power outages makes a big impact in how you lead your life...

Re:Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[MonkeyDluffy]

A neighbor's son went to India for med school. His living conditions were somewhat similar.

-MDL

Re:Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[Rayonic]

Baghdad Burning? You might want to open your horizons a little, and check out an Iraqi blogger that isn't quite so pessimistic. Any other would fit the bill.

I mean, she wasn't even happy when Saddam got caught. Yeesh!

Re:Cheap Computer hardware in Iraq?

[ahdeoz]

That's the way it was under Saddam. You're just getting old news. They haven't been back since to check to see if it's changed.

Iraqi Linux Users Group

[somethinghollow]

He called the Iraqi Linux Users Group "iLug." Don't tell Apple.

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[happyfrogcow]

Yeah, I quit reading the article right there.

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[BeemanH2O]

I'm surprised appled looked over the fact that the name of the country itself.

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[strictnein]

iRaq?

That sounds much to close to the Cobalt RaQ.

Sounds like a lawsuit.

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[Misch]

Oooh baby, that countrys got a nice Raq.

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[FrostedWheat]

iLug you, uLug me ..... aaarh!

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[log0n]

Iraqi Linux Users Group :>

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[happyfrogcow]

thankyou, master of the obvious... I'm well aware of the origins of the term.

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[flamingnight]

Reminds me of an old comment somewhere back when Apple introduced the XServe RAID. Something like, "Why didn't they call it iRaq?" with a response of "Yeah! They could have added an 802.11g interface and called it an AirRAID".

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[drinkypoo]

It makes it sound like they're using antiquated "portable" computers (luggables) like the Kaypro 2/4, an old Compaq, the PS/2 model 70, and what was that commodore luggable called? That thing was extra neato. Personally I'd have gone for ILUG, since it's an acronym, and not just a catchy name; Not to mention, I would never decapitalize the character for the country in question.

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[Hiro Antagonist]

He called the Iraqi Linux Users Group "iLug." Don't tell Apple.

Why would they sue him over his use of the name of their first portable computer in 1985?

Re:Iraqi Linux Users Group

[zfalcon]

what was that commodore luggable called?

Commodore SX-64.

what about the iraqis?

[Anonymous Coward]

(wont somebody please think of the iraqis?)

Censorship?

[aynrandfan]

I am wondering how controlled their access is to the web after Saddam's fall.

What sort of censorship still goes on there, if any?

Re:Censorship?

[WildBeast]

I don't think they had time yet to put any internet law. It's not as if that's the priority.

Re:Censorship?

[Stonent1]

I am wondering how controlled their access is to the web after Saddam's fall.

I suspect some people are seeing what a caucasian female looks like naked for the very first time.

Re:Censorship?

[lecca]

If you read his answers, its pretty clear they have free access to the internet right now.

Re:Censorship?

[Anonymous Coward]

And thus every male in Iraq will come to the conclusion that naked caucasian females all look like jenna jameson. I dont know if this is a good thing or a bad thing...

Re:Censorship?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you aware that most iraqi's are also "caucasian". I'm sure they'd be more interested in mongloid women, since that's something that's lacking, and even negroid (very few mixes).

M$

[Stingr]

"That being said, few Iraqis even know that there are operating systems other than M$."

Maybe they're not as far behind the times as we thought. I mean if the users I speak to are any indication, then about two thirds of the American public think that their operating system is Office 98.

Re:M$

[strictnein]

then about two thirds of the American public think that their operating system is Office 98

2/3 of the US uses Macs?

Try Office 97 or 2000.

Re:M$

[NickFitz]

Try Office 97 or 2000.

On second thoughts, don't :-)

Re:M$

[Acidic_Diarrhea]

I believe he was making a joke where your average computer user has Office 97 or 2000 and some version of Windows 98, which then leads them to confuse the two and claim that their operating system is Office 98. Get it?

It's fun to make jokes sometimes.

Re:M$

[Anonymous Coward]

Looks like they removed a bunch of files where they were making claims that Saddam was behind 9/11. One could be lead to suspect that now that Bush got his war his doesn't need that lie anymore, and wants to erase all history of it since it undermines his authority.

Re:M$

[sckeener]

My favorite is when a user tells me they are running windows 2000....when I get the pc, it is of course windows me.

Re:M$

[secolactico]

Actually, you'd be surprised. I know at leat one guy that had Office 97 running on Windows 98 who used to say that his OS was Office 98.

Of course, two thirds of America can't be that stupid, but still...

Re:M$

[strictnein]

ahh... a multilayered joke
It is all so clear now.

Re:M$

[Anonymous Coward]

Let me guess- when you try to explain their foolish mistake to them (of course this explanation would be punctuated by a nasal chuckle that makes your whole midsection jiggle), they just give you a blank stare and walk away?

Re:M$

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course, two thirds of America can't be that stupid, but still...

look ma, self control!

Re:M$

[denks]

Unfortunately hes right. Working in internet support has taught me that there are large numbers of "Windows 97" or "Office 98" machines out there.

Re:Who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Give them Windows and they will be future terrorists, give them Linux, and they will free the world.

Asinine...

[nphinit]

It's questions like these that make me ashamed to be a "geek".

So, you are living in a war-torn country struggling to piece together a primitive demacracy of sorts--tell me, how much are the inkjet cartridges there? Do you, as a techno-geek, get picked on like you do back here?

By the way, he isn't an "expat" just because he's an American reporter in Bagdad.

Re:Asinine...

[Anonymous Coward]

What? Where did that question come from? Certainly not the interview I just read.

Re:Asinine...

[nphinit]

No, see, I was mocking the questions that were asked.

Donation of old books?

[bc90021]

The article mentions that the iLug needs books... however, it does not mention where we can send them (or even if we can!). I have a ton of old Linux books that I would happily send (at my expense, though probably only one or two a month), but how do we go about doing that?

Re:Donation of old books?

[cnkeller]

I have a ton of old Linux books that I would happily send

I applaud your sentiment, but I have to think of what the poster mentioned in his repsonse about old hardware. Let's face it, linux is a moving target. If the books are old to you, they're old to someone else as well. I realize that it's not exactly true, /bin/ls will always be /bin/ls, but hopefully you get my meaning. It souned they like were fairly current on being able to grab ISO's, etc. I would think the you'd be better off just donating your money and perhaps some of your time. Then again, if you were really intersted in helping and could spare $50, I'm sure they'd appreciate some new tech books as well...

Re:Donation of old books?

[XO]

Well, I'm sure that something along the lines of "Learn to use Linux in 24 hours" would be quite handy, as long as the people have English skill commonly. (which I obviously don't from the construction of that sentence.. hopefully you get it) Now, "advanced C programming for the Linux 2.0 kernel" (i don't think that's a real title, i just pulled that one outta my arse.. but "Learn to use Linux in 24 hours" is something that's been collecting dust for a good many years on my bookshelf) would be patently useless.

Re:Donation of old books?

[hawkeyeMI]

While I get your point, certainly most linux/unix books still hold a lot of validity. Certainly some things are different, but once you learn bash and man and some basic unix concepts you can get the rest of the info from the OS... I buy outdated books all the time from the local bookstore because they're cheap, and really, how much does most of that stuff change from year to year?

Re:Donation of old books?

[dbIII]

Let's face it, linux is a moving target. If the books are old to you

It all depends on the book. A Redhat5 specific book may have little use now, but the book on shell scripting I picked up at a remainder table in '96 is still solid gold. Those old editions of the TCP/IP books and most general unix texts of the last decade are still going to be full of examples which all work. New editions of books like that simply just have lots of extra stuff in them. All those textbooks that are now worthless for coursework due to a new editions having new set problems are still useful to people that are not getting their assignments marked by the guys that set the texts. With *nix the priciples behind what you do are more useful than knowing which menu to click on. If an old book only has examples in ksh, then you can use ksh on linux.

With a lot of software on *nix you have included documentation on what has changed over quite a while. It wouldn't be that hard to use a ten year old book on bind to set up DNS. Even something like samba, which has changed a lot over the last ten years, retains the same basic syntax in it's configuration files. Even something like fsck is pretty much the same over a wide range of *nix systems. Looking around me I can see a few books more than five years old that are useful to me now. You don't throw out the old crab book when you get the new one, and sometimes you just pick up which one is closest.

Spending hours reading slashdot at work - but it's Sunday, and fsck can take a long time on a dodgy disk array. It would just piss them off if I sent this server to Iraq.

State of network infrastructure?

[fnord123]

I wonder what the country-wide network infrastructure is like? Having guerillas cut the fiber line (as mentioned in the article) in Baghdad doesn't sound promising.

Given that many middle class families have generators but land lines are flaky (and DSL coverage sounds pretty low), maybe the iLUG should look into setting up an 802.11b community network?

Pringles cans can be used for directional attenae, generator power to support the nodes, Linux is a good OS to build it on, seems like it would be a nice fit to me!

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[droid_rage]

What would this community network connect to? DSL lines cost a fortune for relatively low bandwidth, and are only available in limited areas.

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[Kenja]

"Pringles cans can be used for directional attenae, generator power to support the nodes, Linux is a good OS to build it on, seems like it would be a nice fit to me!"

Right now I think most families over there would rather have the Pringles then the can.

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[Anonymous Coward]

Thats a pretty big misconception perpetuated by the us media to make it seem like we need to be over there

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[fnord123]

The community network connects to each other in a mesh, with those few people who have the DSL lines serving as the uplink to the Internet - or perhaps even the ISP might consider offering wireless Internet access.

There is a university project on the east coast of the USA (can't remember which U :( )that has used omnidirectional antennae + 802.11b nics to create a mesh that works precisely in this fashion, forwarding packets across each node until they hit a node connected to the Internet.

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[droid_rage]

I'm well aware of how it could work. The iLUG crew is poor, there is only one ISP, and bandwidth is expensive. Now, once again, why is this a good idea at this time?

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[fnord123]

Step 1: Adam Davidston (sp), who has DSL gets a 802.11b ap. Maybe sent to him by a generous slashdotter.

Step 2: Ashraf Tariq and Hasanen Nawfal get 802.11 NICs and external antennae components, perhaps via the same method.

Step 3: All three buy Pringles cans and enjoy tasty chips while browsing consume.net website and other community wireless websites.

Step 4: Using pringles+components+NICs+Linux, beginning of a community wireless network is setup.

Step 5: Repeat the above, using bandwidth controls built into freely available software, various routing schemes such as AODV, and more pringles cans, until lots of the iLUG people are sharing the few DSL connections.

The above is pretty obvious, perhaps you are just nitpicking because you think being a cynic makes you look more informed or something.

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[plugger]

From the article:

Poorer people are pretty badly off. Unemployment is huge and underemployment is horrible. In the Thaura or Seven Palaces neighborhoods, people are lucky to make a buck a day and wouldn't be able to live without the monthly government food ration.

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[dethlejd]

This, in a nutshell, is why corporate IT people go berserk when Linux is mentioned as a replacement for their tried-and-true, I-bought-it-for-real-money operating systems.

You cannot seriously suggest that you build a NATIONAL INFRASTRUCTURE based on power generators, HACKED PRINGLES CANS and Linux.

Don't get me wrong; I think Linux is the perfect solution, but if people keep suggesting that the ideal way to implement a Linux solution ANYWHERE, is the same way they did it at home, we will remain the subject of scorn and derision.

Face it, they have to spend money, and spend a LOT of it.

Now, think of it this way.

Allow the power infrastructure to become normalized. In the places that do not have power, build POP-in-a-boxes. (Hey wait, it's sunny there in the Sunni Triangle, right? Perfect place for Solar Cells) Install quality routers and airheads (Linux makes for a great uber-geek techno-elite router; L****** and C**** make great, cheapass router/APs; you decide). Put them in a nice, weatherproof, locking and alarmed boxes. Do accurate radio surveys; place commercial hi-gain antennas in strategic locations. Build a couple of world class data centers for hubs and upstream links.

There's where you put your Linux boxen. Acres and acres of Apache, SENDMAIL, FTP. Stack upon stack of 1U Redhat servers. Every Iraqi gets 5MB of storage and 10 email addresses.

It's F-ing IOL, without the dumbass discs.

But it's real, redundant, survivable, and most of all MANAGEABLE.

Remeber, you can have it fast, you can have it cheap, and you can have it accurate, but you only get to pick TWO of those.

- Jim

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[Richthofen80]

yeah, and where are we going to find a nation full of geek slobs to consume that many pringles? oh wait... Slashdot community to the rescue!

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[droid_rage]

You forgot about the omnidirectional antennae, since using pringles cans doesn't work very well for omnidirectional antennae which you would want to use for a community network.
Yes, this is all technically fairly easy to do, but you are still completely missing my point. I will say it one last time:
This is currently a bad idea because 256k is incredibly expensive and isn't enough bandwidth for a community network. Besides, the Government ISP would probably have a serious problem with you competing with them with their own bandwidth and shut you down in a hurry. Sattelite solutions are bad because you could support both the LUG founders on what it would cost a month, plus the latency on a satellite solution added to the latency of an AP to AP community lillypad like what you're describing would be horrendous.
I'm not being a cynic, I'm being a realist. There are a lot of better things you could do with the money at this time. Later on, it could be a good idea, but not now. No need to be a dick about it.

Re:State of network infrastructure?

[Anonymous Coward]

sssh. reality has no place in this discussion.

Iraq was a perfect gem of wealth and justice before the evil foreign invaders raped the land and oppressed the people.

Uruklink?

[TomatoMan]

Uruklink does offer DSL service to a few neigborhoods. I have a 256K line that goes down a few hours a week and a few days a month

Does this mean you have an Uruk-Hai-speed connection?

Sorry, truly sorry. Don't know what came over me. Move along.

Re:Uruklink?

[kalidasa]

Just in case you didn't know, Uruk was a major city in ancient Mesopotamia - it was continuously inhabited (i.e., at least a small village) from about 4000 BC to AD 500 or so. That might well be where Tolkien got his name for the orcs.

Re:Uruklink?

[daeley]

You forgot the obligatory Tolkien Ring joke!

You really must keep an *eye* on these things.

I'm sorry, too. Whatever you had is apparently catching.

Re:Uruklink?

[Hiro Antagonist]

Uruklink does offer DSL service to a few neigborhoods. I have a 256K line that goes down a few hours a week and a few days a month

Does this mean you have an Uruk-Hai-speed connection?

I don't know about that, but they sound more reliable than Comcast.

Re:Uruklink?

[UserGoogol]

No, Orc is an old word that's been in English for a while. Uruk is his attempt at giving "Orc" a proper elvish etymology.

Re:Uruklink?

[Anonymous Coward]

Wasn't Uruk a city in the Dark Sun novels?

Linux not in Iraq

[Anonymous Coward]

I can tell you about Linux not in Iraq and how Microsoft sucks. I was in Mosul for 6 months attached to the 101st. AO Glory had a mini-mall where they brought in locals to provide various foods and services for us. The Haji internet cost $2/hr but service was terrible. Mostly it was due to their running a Microsoft WinProxy. The haji didn't know about Linux and we couldn't communicate well enough for me to get him to set it up. So we put up with him having to restart the MS server every couple of hours for the two dozen computers proxied through it.

Coming home next month... whee!

Re:Linux not in Iraq

[Anonymous Coward]

Are you aware that the term "haji" as used by US Soldiers in Iraq is as derogatory as "gook" was on Viets?

Re:Linux not in Iraq

[Anonymous Coward]

Why mod this fucking racist cunt? He went to fight a war for American corporations and kill 15,000 innocent lives. Why do we have to listen to these cunts when they come home, and why do we have to put up with them on a civilized site. Why do we need to hear these new racist words they have made. Why is this modded to +5?

Murderers.

M$? M$? M$?

[ektor]

This Penny Arcade strip is very apropos.

Re:M$? M$? M$?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tycho and Gabe are tools. Next!

I'm going to make a fortune...

[Anonymous Coward]

...selling kaffiyehs with "Star Trek" logos on them.

Unfortunatly, Iraqi homes don't have basements. Where are the Unix geeks going to LIVE?!

(and I realise that "kaffiyeh" is probably the wrong word, but I thought it sounded better than "them robes those guys wear")

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember, Muslims always lie. So the following question will suffice:

"What colour is the sky?"

Activate Tinfoil Hat!

[American AC in Paris]

What the iLug needs most is:
1. Money.
2. Information.
3. Technical help.

Free software, hackers, and Iraq, all wrapped up into the same organization? Danger! Danger! Potential terrorist organization detected!

Seems only a few weeks ago we would have run the risk of getting our asses detained for violationg the Patriot Act. Now that this part of the Patriot Act has been ruled unconstitutional, though, we're safe to help these guys out.

<voiceover style="announcer:campy-1950's-sci-fi;"> or are we? </voiceover>

Re:Activate Tinfoil Hat!

[MullerMn]

What the iLug needs most is:
1. Money.
2. Information.
3. Technical help.

I think I've decoded the secret plea for help in their message! Dispatch the special agents from Massachusetts immediately!

Re:Activate Tinfoil Hat!

[Whyrph]

What the iLug needs most is:
1. Money
2. Information
3. Technical Help.

5. Profit?

Immaturity of Interviewee

[TrollBridge]

"That being said, few Iraqis even know that there are operating systems other than M$."

Am I the only one here who thinks the not-so-clever-anymore substitution of "S" for "$" is the kind of thing one would expect from a know-it-all teenager, and not someone with relatively strong associations with the rebuilding of a nation's IT infrastructure?

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

whats wrong with M$?

it implies that microsoft is in it just for the money. is that untrue?

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Stiletto]

...as opposed to the immaturity of a guy calling himself "TrollBridge" and expecting to be taken seriously on slashdot? :-)

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[RobotRunAmok]

Am I the only one here who thinks the not-so-clever-anymore substitution of "S" for "$" is the kind of thing one would expect from a know-it-all teenager, and not someone with relatively strong associations with the rebuilding of a nation's IT infrastructure?

No, you're not alone. Based upon what I know and have seen of the "new Western pioneers" in Iraq I had a certain picture of the interviewee in my mind, and then when I read the "M$" quote I immediately shaved off about 20 years from my mental profile.

Does Adam's mom know he's out of the country?

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

Shut up! This is slashdot! You're supposed to conform to the M$-typing Linux geek stereotype like everyone else does. Conform or be laughed off the site.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

Its kind of like when somebody is talking politics and they drop in something like... "George Bush, who stole the presidency in 2000"

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

"...when I read the "M$" quote I immediately shaved off about 20 years from my mental profile."

My sentiment exactly! It was kinda hard to take him seriously after that, as interesting a subject as this is.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[drinkypoo]

When I was 15 I called Microsoft Micro$oft. This was a sort of followup to calling Compuserve Compu$erve, which is a long and time-honored tradition. Why is Micro$oft/M$ any different? The only difference here is that Compuserve was an expensive service, and Microsoft mostly has the $ in their name because of their domination over the software market. However, I wouldn't say their software is inexpensive either, especially given the enormous hassle of owning it - hassle = time = money.

I am now 26. I still call Microsoft M$. I just don't do it as much around this joint because people piss, moan, and whine every time you do it. I also like to call them MICROS~1, which I think is far cleverer, because it illustrates the problem inherent in overzealous backwards compatibility, and in a lack of planning at the outset of a task.

With those things said; Calling Microsoft M$ is a sort of textual sneer at it. I can't think of anything Microsoft deserves more than our derision for everything they do except marketing, and the skill that goes into their anticompetitive practices, which they have gotten away with far longer than anyone wanted to believe they could. As such, I find the use of M$ for MS completely defensible. It might be considered somewhat immature, but so is any snide substitution, yet they are strung all through mainstream media like rivets on airplanes. They hold the whole thing together and function as a sort of punctuation.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[davew2040]

You guys are a couple of jerks.

I just think this needs to be said.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

Very insightful indeed. What company isn't in the business to primarily make money? Puhhhhlease!

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[djeaux]

I am 50, and I call it Micro$oft for much the same reason that the characters in Harry Potter books refer to "you know who".

Another reason I use the abbreviation M$ is to keep it from being confused with multiple sclerosis (MS). Of course, both M$ and MS are terrible diseases, but past that, MS (the real disease) is no joke.

To the point: If you want to bash Adam for something, find something substantive instead of looking for "immaturity" in the abbreviations he uses. I personally think what he's doing in Iraq is far from being immature. He's trying to be part of a solution and not part of a problem.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[TrollBridge]

"I am 50, and I call it Micro$oft for much the same reason that the characters in Harry Potter books refer to 'you know who'."

So you model your intellectual communication style after ficticious 13-year-olds? I think you've made my point for me.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Keith McClary]

Am I the only one here who thinks the not-so-clever-anymore substitution of "S" for "$" is the kind of thing one would expect from a know-it-all teenager, and not someone with relatively strong associations with the rebuilding of a nation's IT infrastructure?


It does avoid any possible confusion with:

a chronic progressive nervous disorder involving loss of myelin sheath around certain nerve fibers

a state in the Deep South on the gulf of Mexico; one of the Confederate States during the American Civil War

a master's degree in science

A microsecond: One millionth of a second.

An abbreviation for milli-seconds (1/1000th of a second - usually not capitalized)

A magntiude determined at teleseismic distances using the logarithm of the amplitude of 20-second period surface waves generate>

Multiplex Section

the abbreviation for Mint State, it's used with a numerical figure to grade unworn coins

Mobile Station

The mobile terminal (that is, the mobile phone) used by the subscriber to access the cellular network.

Abr. Motor ship. A designation for many cruise liners.

(Memory Stick) Sony's memory solution. This is a memory only card that is the size of a stick of gum.

The two-character ISO 3166 country code for MONTSERRAT.

Manuscript or typescript is the original work set down on paper using, pen, typewriter or printer.

Main Structure

The temperature at which transformation of austenite to martensite starts during cooling.

Mass Spectrometry (laboratory analysis technique)

Military Science

Title for women who specifically request to be so identified.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

Or he could have just said "Microsoft" to avoid ambiguity.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Listen Up]

No, I did not think this at all. In the efforts to achieve proper reception a writer will generally adjust his writing style to match the interests of his audience. I am certainly not in my teens nor early twenties, but I do find it entertaining to write M$, depending on my audience and personal affiliation with them.

He also mentioned in his write-up about the growing and soon to be exploding cultural gap between young, technically competent future in Iraq and the older, technically competent/incompetent. The software industry problems of today are because of the men and women in their 40's and 50's and older who applied an old business model to a new market with currently disasterous results (look at our current economic problems). I would say that starting a fresh technical revolution/culture in Iraq with the young Iraqi people who have the opporunity to use the mistakes of the past as lessons for the future is absolutely fantastic. Even if the use of the word Microsoft is referred to as M$ during technical or otherwise untechnical writing.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you think about those that model their countries after a 13-year-intellectualy-old president?

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

Holy WAY off-fucking-topic, Batman!

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

The troll part of your name is appropriate.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

yes

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[Anonymous Coward]

"...when I read the "M$" quote I immediately shaved off about 20 years from my mental profile."

I figured the author was just using two keystokes in place of many keystokes.

Since when is using common everyday well understood short hand cause to think bad thoughts about the author? Every :) is from an 8 year old, right? Think again, Dr. of Hasty Generalizations.

Then again I DO NOT know the person's age.

Re:Immaturity of Interviewee

[alexpage]

Maybe he's just saying that trolls are beneath him?

s/w costs $1 and no software industry?

[Mozz Alimoz]

These two quotes from Adam Davidson struck me:

First of all, since all software--including M$--costs a buck a CD, it's pretty much impossible to convince anyone that they should pay thousands of dollars for systems.

And later in question 5

Iraq has very well-educated computer science population. Technocrats at the ministries and university professors and students. There are tons of people who know C++ and other languages. But they've been hampered by the lack of new information during sanctions and by the fact that Iraq had no software industry. There are plenty of people who designed computer control systems for power plants or databases and maintained servers. They're smart and experienced, but they have 13 years or so of catching up to do.

It's a bit hard to establish a software industry when you don't pay the programmers. But I guess now they're hoping to sell the software to nations that do respect intellectual property? BTW, I'm not accusing individual Iraqis of doing anything that I wouldn't do in their situation. This is just an observation.

Re:s/w costs $1 and no software industry?

[Anonymous Coward]

"It's a bit hard to establish a software industry when you don't pay the programmers."

Software programmers and engineers and designers are employed in a SERVICE capacity or to write NOT TO BE DISTRIBUTED code (one time use ; one location use ; research use ; etc) five times as often as they are employed to write something that will be distributed and copywrite/patent/if to charge /what to charge/etc becomes an issue.

This is a WELL DOCUMENTED MISCONCEPTION.

Google and learn.

No patents and no copywrite does not mean no programmers and no music.

It just WOULD mean ALL profesional programmers are service oriented (and all profesional musicians are live performers).

Wireless

[sleepingsquirrel]

Now we need to do a follow-up question and answer session. Here's my question: Since hardware is apparently cheap and the wired infrastructure is so bad, are Iraqi's using 802.11 for their networking? Seems like VoIP over wireless might also be a popular option.

Really

[savagedome]

Some Iraqis even ignore the porn and actually try to figure out what the 'net is all about

Oh you ignoramus!

Re:Who cares

[Anonymous Coward]

Give them Windows and they will be instantly productive. Give them Linux and they'll deal with endless kernel panics, library dependency issues, recompiling to change a single option, end of support after 2 years(e.g. Red Hat), and a lack of games.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[LWATCDR]

"sounds like the American liberation has been extrmrly sucessful..despite the lie you get from Kerry, Dean and the Liberal Democrats. "

Okay lets get this straight this is their opinon! In case you did not know it but the news really is entertainment. People watch shows about people getting killed and explosions. Pictures of Solders building shools are boring.
As far as Kerry and Dean. Just like Bush they get there informaiton from somewhere. I have to give them the benifit of the doubt and say that they believe what they say. I do not agree with them but isn't it good that we can hear both sides?

"Slashdot and its clueless followers sure look stupid now don't they"

Ummm. Slashdot is a comunity of many people with different opinons. The only thing that the people on slashdot agree on is computers are cool.

Free MP3's

[Anonymous Coward]

great interview, i just can't get over how we finally have a chance to hear from someone 'one the ground' in Iraq and one of the /. communities biggest issues is if you can legally obtain mp3's and other media and circumvent local (american) copyright laws .....

I speak arabic, I have a passport and over 10 years expirence. Where where the questions about what companies where hiring that didn't require a clearence of some sort? How is the money for ex-pat professionals there, etc ... but no, we HAVE to know if we can 'pirate' are damn MP3's God forbid we give an Iraqi music groups rights to the distrubution of their music. Chances are the iraqi isn't a some superstar with millions of dollars and being able to control his distrubution would actually make a diffrence in his life ...

if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[ackthpt]

Of course, make sure you don't teach the Iraqis -too- well, or they might start outsourcing jobs there, too ;)

I see the wink emoticon, but have you considered the alternative? A brain-drain for Iraq? If you read the article you'd see that Iraq has a lot of pretty intelligent C++ and vb programmers, plus lots of Unix experience. Consider that these very people may elect to leave Iraq for India, or other parts, to make more money than they can in Iraq. A brain-drain would be disasterous for Iraq, to say nothing of what it would mean for iLug.

Re:if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[God Takeru]

To be honest, I don't think that's too likely. For one, India is already overrun with people who have skills in areas like C++ and Visual Basic (see the cover article in this month's issue of Wired if you don't believe me)-- and according to the above interview, these are the only prevalent languages among Iraqi programmers.

If you've been following the issues going on with Indian tech jobs taken from American IT workers, you'd see that both the Indian firms hiring these folks and the government of India are trying to keep these Americans from coming over to India and reclaiming positions. If they're keeping out the people who used to have these jobs, what's the likelihood they're going to accept in a bunch of Iraqis to do it?

The balance of disaster for the US IT industry (which makes up a large part of the now failing American economy) vs. disaster for the new Iraqi nation may be a delicate one in the future, it's true, but I don't expect a mass exodus from Iraq by the intellectual population if they don't get a bunch of outsourcing contracts.

Re:if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[ackthpt]

Don't just think of the USA (though there's a strong predisposition to that topic.) Other gulf states, Europe, South Africa, South America, Canada and China are logical desitinations beside the USA. If they could live well and scrape together enough to send home a few hundred bucks home each month you bet they'll take it.

Back in the late 70's there were a lot of middle eastern students in US schools. When the iranian revolution happened quite a few went home, but many stayed. I know a few who have prospered very well, where they wouldn't have done well or died fighting Iraq if they went home.

The same sort of thing coule be happening again, though pressured by need rather than social upheaval.

Re:if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[ichimunki]

If you've been following the issues going on with Indian tech jobs taken from American IT workers, you'd see that both the Indian firms hiring these folks and the government of India are trying to keep these Americans from coming over to India and reclaiming positions.

First of all, I think it's odd that you say "taken" and "reclaim" as if jobs were some sort of property and there were some sort of natural right to have a job. But that's just nitpicking on my part.

More importantly, what's all this about India keeping out Americans? You got even a single link to support this? And besides, are the Indians working below minimum wage or something? If there are Americans willing to lower their rate and live less lavish lifestyles just to be able to continue a programming career, why couldn't they do it here in the U.S.?

Obviously one can't take minimum wage jobs in San Francisco and expect to be able to afford to rent even a bunk at the homeless shelter... but if the company is willing to export work all the way to India, why wouldn't they be willing to outsource it to Iowa or North Dakota or any number of other god-forsaken states in the Union? Take a page from the credit card companies who often have operations in South Dakota where the costs are relatively low and the tax and regulatory laws are favorable.

Re:if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[God Takeru]

If I'm fired and you're hired to do my position, you've taken what was once my job. If I get this job back from you, I've reclaimed it. How would you prefer me to word it? That you happen to gain a job and I happen to lose one? I'm not implying that I own the position, or anything of the sort, but people don't say "I'm going to a job today," they say "I'm going to my job today." Don't assume I'm saying that jobs are owned by a single individual, that is not my intention.

It would seem the one thing you don't understand is the difference between cost of living in the US and cost of living in India. $5,000 a year goes a lot farther in Mumbai and Bangalore than it does in somewhere like Des Moine. You can't afford to live in America for what the tech companies are paying the Indian programmers. The Indians are working FAR below the American poverty line (last I checked, about $9,000 a year)-- but not below their own.

You're right, I had just heard a lot about Americans being rejected in their attempts to move to India to claim lost jobs, and at the moment am not going to go on a linksearch to prove it, so consider that point nullified.

I hope you understand the rest of my statements better with this clarification.

Re:if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[ichimunki]

I hope you understand the rest of my statements better with this clarification.

I do. I was mostly hoping you had some good information about the Indian government preventing U.S. citizens from immigrating. I should have focused on that, sorry.

Re:if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[ahdeoz]

The Indian workers may only be taking home $9000, but the American companies outsourcing are paying $40,000+ on average from what I've heard. Now, a $40,000 salary employee costs them around $60,000 in the US, so it's still a bargain. I'd move to South Dakota if I could keep $40,000. It's much preferable to a dump like Seattle. The only thing I'd miss here is snowboarding, but that isn't so great in the rain either.

Re:if jobs then stay else brain-drain

[God Takeru]

Wired Magazine quotes a Senior Indian programmer as making $11,000. I don't know where you're getting that information, or where that number comes from, but I -do- know nobody has come to these workers and said "Hey, would you be willing to cut down to $40,000 and move to the Dakotas to keep your job?" They're just being outright fired. And I also know that you can't make a living in most parts of the US on $11,000, and shouldn't have to with a college degree (American workers would in fact be better off leaving IT and taking other jobs-- or moving to India with their cost of living-- than trying to work for the amount tech companies are paying Indian workers while living here).

Political Tin Ear

[bstadil]

they're so locked away in hidden offices in the CPA palace (formerly Saddam's Presidential Palace)

Does this come across as a smart PR move? I am sure the office space is really nice and all, but political tone deaf.

I thought Chalabi was a pretty smart fellow (Dishonest but smart) he snookered the Bush administration to go to war.

Where do you think the Info spouted by Rumsfeld " We know precisely where the WMD's are hidden" came from?

Re:Political Tin Ear

[dbIII]

Where do you think the Info spouted by Rumsfeld " We know precisely where the WMD's are hidden" came from?

I think it came from an old wrestler who's career was on the skids before 11 September who needed to be seen as a man of action to retain his position. If pressed he'll probably just repeat some strange stuff about "unknown unknowns". Why be suprised when an old Nixon man tells a few lies?

No Ninnle Questions!

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't answer my question about the prevalence of Ninnle Linux! I'm pissed!

No. No.

[The Ape With No Name]

Seriously, a lot of users think that there was a Windows 97 release or a Windows Express or some other conflation of many different distribution names. If you ever have to ask someone, while doing tech support, what OS they use, you will get wild variations. It can be really fscking hard to keep it straight.

M$

[dave420-2]

The instant someone starts slinging round terms like "micro$oft" just highlights their lack of objectivity. I agree with the sentiment, but it's so childish!

How to send books

[ajd]

You can send books a few ways. It's best just to email me at adavidson@marketplace.org and I'll send you the address. Please let me know what books you'd like to send.

Re:How to send books

[_xeno_]

marketplace.org, eh?

That answers my question, "What radio show?"

I suppose I can also point people over here to some coverage about the rebuilding of Iraq, although I can't find any newer pieces. Not that I really went looking.

According to Netcraft, marketplace.org is running on Linux, too. Nifty. PHP and Apache - all open source. Although the streaming audio uses RealPlayer.

And, no, I don't really have anything useful to add to the discussion of iLug.

Re:How to send books

[identity0]

I assume english is all right, then? What other languages are common there?

btw, there are a lot of documentation online, I will post links to Arabic ones if I find them.

consume.net

[david.given]

...sounds perfect for them.

They've got the skills, they've got cheap consumer hardware, they've got bugger all infrastructure. Like a lot of developing countries, if you want decent wide-area networking it could well be easier to skip the copper stage completely and move on to radio.

(consume.net, if you don't know, is a project to create ad-hoc WANs using 802.11 hardware on cheap PCs. Each node acts as a router for all the other nodes; packets get passed from one node to the next, with automatic route discovery and all that. It's very cool.)

What's more, given the state of their government and regulatory authorities, it'd probably be quite easy to grandfather in some nice high signal strength limits. At the moment, noone cares how strong your transmitter is. But it'll be regulated eventually, and once there's a decent amount of infrastructure running at 5W a node, it'll be politically infeasible to order it all to be torn down.

Re:consume.net

[Paladine97]

Sounds interesting, but what good would it do with an unstable power source?

It sounds to me like power drops pretty randomly in a large majority of areas. How well could consume.net handle the mass changes to the node infrastructure?

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[back_pages]

Like you've uncovered some conspiracy?

Hell man, ask me what Shanghai is like. I was there. I saw the sights. I was an American in China and I can tell you exactly what it was like for me. That doesn't even imply that I'm truly representing the situation in Shanghai.

Ask me what Pittsburgh is like. I'll tell you my story, but it probably won't mesh with that from a life-long resident of Pittsburgh. Uh oh, my role as a neocon secret operative has been revealed!

WTF??!!

[arvindn]

Founder of LUG calls MS Agent a nice guy!!

What's the world coming to??!!

Its a joke, relax :-)

Re:WTF??!!

[Bigby]

It's like at christmas:

"This gift is nice." means this gift isn't really that good.

Re:We apologize for being wrong about Bush and Ira

[esaloch]

I, for one, appreciate at least one other slashdot reader not just assuming that the US did the right thing. Being able to use Linux does not justify war. Just like lieing about WMDs didn't really justify it.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

When you actually _ASK_ someone who is IN Iraq right now, you get a different picture of what it's like than the picture Bush News wants you to have.

You mean all that footage of Iraqi citizens frolicking in meadows of daisies, bathing in champaign, and wheelbarrowing their cash around the block is fake? You mean Iraq is not the hottest vacation spot in the world right now? CNN and Fox News have been lying to us?!

For shit's sake, leave your off-topic, heavily-biased political agenda out of the picture and try to participate in this discussion like an adult.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Stiletto]

I wouldn't say I uncovered anything. Just comparing the difference between what this guy (who we assume actually is in Iraq, and has no financial incentive to lie) describes, and what our state-run propaganda distribution networks describe.

Impressive

[gosand]

Nice turnaround time, especially considering where he's located. One week to receive and answer the questions is pretty nice. I wonder if we'll ever get to see the answers to the Bruce Perens interview from July 28?

Re:Impressive

[Politburo]

I don't understand how his location affects the turnaround time. He has internet access, and questions were emailed to him.

Re:Impressive

[gosand]

I just meant that he is located in Iraq, where he might have more important things to do than answer interview questions. Although he has access, he also said the power is off at least once a week. Certainly not ideal conditions. 1 week turnaround vs 6 months (and counting). What is that, about 25x faster? I just have a feeling that we are never going to get the answers to the Bruce Perens interview, and I have emailed a couple of times asking what happened to it. Heck, the questions would have changed by now. I am sure the questions regarding SCO would be different now.

Yes, we are truly sorry!

[bad enema]

Sorry for not realizing the massive benefits that potential Linux using Iraqis would have out of this war! All that resistance in Iraq - those must all be Windows users!

Access to Guns

[aynrandfan]

Almost all Iraqis have a Kalachnikov rifle in the house to ward off burglars.

Gee, all I have is my Maglite and a few bottles of Bawls . . :*(

Re:Access to Guns

[Apostata]

They only have Kalachnikov's because they don't have housecats, known to be notorious for tripping intruders in the dark (with little peripheral casualties, save for vases and drapes).

You are wrong

[The Ape With No Name]

People actually beleive that there are non-existent releases of Microsoft OSes. That in and of it self is funny. Interesting how we liberals can sort these things out, huh?

Re:You are wrong

[Acidic_Diarrhea]

What am I wrong about exactly?

Re:You are wrong

[Anonymous Coward]

What am I wrong about exactly?

Explosive Diarrhea!

Re:We apologize for being wrong about Bush and Ira

[Anonymous Coward]

As a Christian I have to say that I take offense to the notion that Christians should use windows. Other than that you're comment was insightful.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Martin Blank]

You also get a different picture than what Dean News wants you to have.

As with all things political, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[ivan256]

Funny, what he described would seem to me to be a more favorable description in the eyes of the current administration than the horror prortrayed through major media outlets. Are you saying there's a massive Bush administration/CNN conspiracy to make Bush look bad?

Re:satisfied now you Liberal bastards?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am against "the war", and very happy that Iraqis have better lives now. I am not at all against helping Iraqis. I am against telling the people of this country that they are in danger from Saddam's weapons of mass destruction and all of that other nonsense Bush spouted. It is like when the creepy politicians make a bill with all sorts of good things for children (for example) in it, and add one small section to the bill that increases polution / decreases rights etc. Then they say "support this bill or you hate children!". Morons who have been brainwashed will say "I like children, and this bill too!". Lesser morons will say "I hate this bill, and children too!". Intelligent people will just say "I like children, but what the hell is with that extension to the bill that has nothing to do with children?".

Similarly, idiotic right wingers will say the war is completely good, idiotic left wingers will say it is a complete failure, and smart people will criticize the bad (lies about WMD etc), but be happy about the good.

I am glad Iraqis are living better now, and am still waiting for Bush to apologize for lying to me.

Thank you.

[Jonathan Hamilton]

I just wanted to say thanks for going over there.
Unlike some ppl on slashdot.org I am forever indebited to you for your sacrafice to your country.
While your were under mortar attack, and risking your life for your country I was going to college.
Thanks again!

Re:Thank you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Word.

I second that motion.

Re:Thank you.

[dreamchaser]

My brother is with the 101st and just got home last week. He was able to get access via an Internet Cafe near the oil refinery he was stationed at, especially after he rebuilt their LAN for them (free access for him from then on!)

Thank you, thank you all for what you have done and what you'll be asked to do in the future. As a couple of others have said, not all of slashdot is left leaning.

Re:Thank you.

[sparrow_hawk]

Just because we're left-leaning (and objected to the war) doesn't mean we don't appreciate what the soldiers are doing and don't want to support the Iraqis in rebuilding their country.

I'll join the parent in saying, "Bravo!" -- I just wish there was something I could do besides giving money. (Joining the Marines doesn't count; I have issues with authority... :) Too bad the Peace Corps isn't in the area. Somehow I doubt the iLUG people want a random American showing up unannounced and asking if he can crash on their couch.

Re:Thank you.

[Anonymous Coward]

You should be ashamed to thank this racist cunt. I hope you ment it in sarcasm.

BTW, how did moderators let the grandfather comment go by with the subtile but racist references trolled in?

How would you like me to call people who don't look like me, nigger, gook and haji?

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

"When you actually _ASK_ someone who is IN Iraq right now, you get a different picture of what it's like than the picture Bush News wants you to have."

Um...actually, my guess is that the Bush Administration doesn't like most of the current Iraq coverage. Every time I turn on the TV, our media is focused on bombs and casualties...and that is ALL you hear about. These are pictures of Iraq that the Bush Administration does NOT want us to have...yet, they still exist.

Don't take this the wrong way (take it like a joke):

When you actually _ASK_ someone who watches Bush News or any other news network about the current situation in Iraq, you'll get a description that is much worse than what iLUG has described it as.

How many did posting AC on slashdot get you?

[pr0ntab]

n/t

Re:How many did posting AC on slashdot get you?

[Anonymous Coward]

Three. However, one of them was black with acne, and one had a very smelly fadge. The other one was beautiful in every way though, and made my lips glisten with bloody spit.

snide

[Anonymous Coward]

Snide little editors remark from /. seeing the constant stream of nytimes links. Salon is left-wing... so what, ignore those articles, but you have to give it to them - they have some of the best in-depth journalism available on the internet.

I think ONCE we can have a salon.com article rather than a nytimes article. And as both require reg (at least salon gives you a no-reg option) you shouldn't make comment on it like it's something out of the ordinary when so much nytimes (about every 4th article has one) stuff goes up.

Here's an ask slashdot:

Does slashdot have a special relationship to the nytimes? yes, I mean monetary.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[Anonymous Coward]

"Slashdot is a comunity of many people with different opinons."

It is? That's odd, because whenever anyone says anything that is favorable of Microsoft, that person gets called a FUD spreading troll, regardless of what Microsoft has done.

The Slashdot line of thinking is typically, "Hey, here's a chance to bash Microsoft! Say some bad things about them, nod your head and move along." And despite geek culture being the one of the most independent thinking cultures in the world, you are not allowed to disagree with the old Slashdot pro-Linux line in this community.

Donation

[ckathens]

You've got Cash! Most worthwhile donation i've given in a long time.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Moridineas]

What state-run propaganda distribution network?

Also, since the vision of Iraq presented in this article is MUCH better than the one seen in the news, what does that mean?

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[daviddennis]

Actually, it sounds like it's an enormous improvement over Iraq before the war. Plenty of goods in the stores, throngs of people searching for opportunity and finding it, computers and Internet access readily available. And, of course, nobody's going to shoot you for not having your picture of Saddam up.

Sure, people are skeptical about the Americans, and life isn't perfect, but it's paradise compared to life under Saddam.

Conservative columnist Mark Steyn visited and found one telling detail: The UN's gigantic refugee camps aren't being used. Nobody's fleeing the country. People may not love America, but they see potential in the society America has freed.

I think we did a great thing.

To tell the truth, I'd love to visit and see what it's really like over there. Unfortunately, neither Travelocity nor Orbitz advertise flights. I guess we'll know things are truly normal when they do.

D

The Farewell dossier

[Anonymous Coward]

There are plenty of people who designed computer control systems for power plants or databases and maintained servers. They're smart and experienced, but they have 13 years or so of catching up to do.

Perhaps they can get training from the same people who built the control system for the Russian pipline...

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[Perl-Pusher]

Exactly! Democrats convienently forget the following:

We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program. - President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998.

[T]he risk that the leaders of [Iraq] will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security risk we face. - Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Feb. 18, 1998.

[We] urge you ... to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs. - Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Tom Daschle, Carl Levin, John Kerry and others, Oct. 9, 1998.

We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction. - Sen. Ted Kennedy, fall, 2002.

We know [Saddam] has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country. - Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002.

We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has ... a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction. - Sen. Bob Graham (chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee), Dec. 8, 2002.

Because it's an election year we are just supposed to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain". Funny how the news media never brings up any of these quotes! People also forget that we bombed Southern Iraq anytime Clinton felt pressure over the Lewinski scandal. My sincere hope is that we can one day finally end the continous deployment to Saudi Arabia and Kuwait we've had since the first gulf war.

BOFH excuse of the day:

[infolib]

...some guerillas cut the fiber-optic line...

Re:BOFH excuse of the day:

[scrotch]

Bolt cutters make good firewalls and block most computer viruses.

MOD UP

[Anonymous Coward]

good point

Soon, my pretty, soon...

[ackthpt]

If you read his answers, its pretty clear they have free access to the internet right now.

Indeed. And they're a very religious country -- which means "if I'm doing it, it's OK, if someone else is doing it, it's bad and there oughta be a law against it." Have no fear, they'll probably get around to a massively restrictive system once the mullahs gain political power and control. They could probably learn from Iran and China, how to limit access and spy on people.

Online gaming

[Anonymous Coward]

There is also a huge explosion in networked gaming. Those places are always packed with people playing games with folks from around the world

America's Army is quite the rage

Outsourcing

[Druss.the.legend]

Iraq has very well-educated computer science population. Technocrats at the ministries and university professors and students. There are tons of people who know C++ and other languages.

How long before we start outsourcing to Iraq

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't wait until there is an Iraq Fund closed-end mutual fund.

Simple, Bush Co censorship

[Anonymous Coward]

If ya'r na wit us, ya'r agan us!

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[orionware]

The interesting thing about liberals, progressives, socialists et al is how quickly they will shout down opponents while accusing their opponents of this same tactic. Dean shouting down a senior citizen weeks back is a classic example.

Opposing viewpoints are welcome as long as they are in line with their own.

If you have a chance to actually talk to folks who were in Iraq before and after the liberation, you'll find that life is better for the most part. Trading a flakey electrical grid for being safe from midnight abductions, rapes and torture is an easy trade to make.

And for Christ's sake. They have PORN now...

Re:We apologize for being wrong about Bush and Ira

[The Ape With No Name]

I think our new Linux Thought Leader meant something more like Christian AND Windows Users, not Christian therefore Windows users.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[back_pages]

I don't know, man. Nothing exists in a vacuum. Everything has a context. This guy is probably optimistic about everything he describes. His car could be stolen and he might say, "Well, I guess I get to shop for a new car now!"

Even taking HIS comments in context, he says that everything is pretty safe and back to normal, yet everyone has an automatic weapon in his or her home, white folk don't go outside at night, and bandits are rampant.

I'm not even sure there is a distinct difference between what this reporter says and what America's admittedly heavily filtered mass media says. It's hard to report that US soldiers were blown up and put a cheerful spin on it, but it's not hard to talk about the recovery of a demolished economy and make it sound like peaches and cream.

We need a new rating for this...

[halivar]

I now see the need for a (-1, Corny) rating. If this poster were sitting in my living room, I would throw a cheetoh at him for his corniness.

Re:We need a new rating for this...

[Whyrph]

I now see the need for a (-1, Corny) rating.


Shouldn't that be (+1, Corny)?

Re:satisfied now you Liberal bastards?

[Anonymous Coward]

Most Iraqis are somewhat better off under the current system than the previous one. However, what if the US had intervened back when Sadaam was gassing the unarmed children that passed for the Iranian Army? Of course, we did intervene... on Sadaam's side. We sold him the materials for his chemical and biological weapons, provided intelligence on Iranian troop movements, and attacked Iranian maritime targets for him. What if we intervened when he was gassing Kurds after the Iran-Iraq War? Again, we did. We sold him helicopters and arial spraying equipment. How about after the Gulf War, when his army brutalized rebellious Shia areas and expelled thousands of "Marsh Arabs" from their homes? You guessed it, we sided with Sadaam. American troops barred Shiite guerrillas from captured Iraqi armories, denying them the weapons they needed to protect themselves from Sadaam's helicopters, which we allowed to fly in airspace we controlled.

The retroactive case that this was a humanitarian intervention is ridiculous. The US had ample opportunity to intervene when Saddaam was actually committing crimes against humanity. Instead, our government sided with him at every turn. Simultaneously we brutalized the Iraqi people with sanctions and periodic bombings. As a humanitarian interventions go, this one would define "a day late and a dollar short."

Re:satisfied now you Liberal bastards?

[Anonymous Coward]

and am still waiting for Bush to apologize for lying to me.

Don't forget Clinton was also claiming WMD, too.

In defense of violence

[Loundry]

I am not in favor of violence

We must act as free and peaceful people, never choosing to improve our lot in life among other free and peaceful people by using force or fraud.

However, if another individual chooses to draw first blood against me or my loved ones, then woe to that predator! Those who choose to live like animals deserve to die like animals.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not something the US did, it's what the lifting of sanctions did.

UN sanctions could have been lifted in '98 had it not been for the US veto.

The US are not the good guys, they are the baddies.

This is what we've been telling you

[Syberghost]

Since I have to spend a lot of time convincing my mom that I'm actually a lot safer than she thinks, I know that the US impression of Iraq is way off. The truth is life here is quite normal. The streets are crowded (way too crowded, traffic is a nightmare), shops are filled with new consumer goods. Restaurants are thriving. Schools are open. People go to work, school, hang out with friends.

Ok, folks, read it; and keep it in mind when you hear a political candidate, of either party, tell you that Iraqis aren't better off.

Re:This is what we've been telling you

[djeaux]

Ok, folks, read it; and keep it in mind when you hear a political candidate, of either party, tell you that Iraqis aren't better off

Nice try, but no cigar. Adam didn't say the Iraqis were better or worse off than they were. He said that life there is "quite normal."

And "normal" is a relative term.

Re:This is what we've been telling you

[hherb]

"Ok, folks, read it; and keep it in mind when you hear a political candidate, of either party, tell you that Iraqis aren't better off."

Oh yes? Then read this: two decades ago I spent time in Iraq. It was always a relief crossing the borders into that country because it felt so "Western": unveiled women to which you could actually talk on the streets, no curfews, intellectual discussion.

Then, some insane "world leader" decided to use far away Iraq as it's warhound against the building up fundamentalism in neighbouring Iran. This insane leader gave Iraq money to buy weapons and sent military people to train them. We all know what came out of this. Both Iraq and Iran being bombed into stone age, countless civilians dead or starving, and fundamentalists getting the boost of their lifes.

Now another insane leader of the same country invaded Iraq, destroyed virtually all infrastructure, and possibly killed more civilians than the dictator Iraq was suffering from during his whole regency. All this just so that they can pilfer Iraq's oil and boost their own rotten economy (of which only the trade deficit can impress nowadays) with lucrative rebuilding contracts

Wow, improvement. I am impressed.

Re:This is what we've been telling you

[Anonymous Coward]

Iraq was a world leader in education. Now the schools there are just "open."

Re:This is what we've been telling you

[Anonymous Coward]

Adam discussed at length how things are in fact better, particularly with respect to technology access. Adam also discussed how thing aren't as bad as the 'media' is portraying it. But that's okay - you're just one more example of how people only want to see things which don't contradict their preset viewpoints.

Re:This is what we've been telling you

[clawsoon]

They're better off now, after the crippling sanctions have been lifted?

Huh.

Shocking.

Andrew Klaassen

Re:This is what we've been telling you

[djeaux]

Excellent point, A.C. And I'll stand chastised.

Show me somebody who doesn't only want to see things which don't contradict their preset viewpoints & I'll show you somebody that is an outlier on every study of human nature I've ever read. You encounter this concept everywhere from T.S. Kuhn to Stephen Covey.

Re:This is what we've been telling you

[Syberghost]

Then, some insane "world leader" decided to use far away Iraq as it's warhound against the building up fundamentalism in neighbouring Iran. This insane leader gave Iraq money to buy weapons and sent military people to train them.

As a result, Iran's plans to kill us got dashed. Or had you forgotten they declared war against the US?

BTW, "it's" is "it is". Possessive is "its".

On manual vs. machine washing

[swillden]

My mother deliberated washing them by hand but I convinced her it would be a bad idea- the water was cold, the weather was miserable and the clothes wouldn't even feel clean.

This is off-topic and irrelevant to the point, but still I think people might be interested in knowing that you actually don't need a washing machine to get your clothes clean. In fact, you can get your clothes far cleaner when hand-washing them than any machine can, and you can even do it with cold water.

I washed my clothes by hand every week for two years when I lived in southern Mexico, and I quickly discovered that clothes can be gotten *very* clean that way, even in cold water (we never used hot water -- most of the ten or so apartments I lived in didn't have any way to heat water at all). Growing up in the U.S., with machine-washed clothing, I always thought that it was just inevitable that white clothes gradually become slightly gray over time, but with good hand washing technique (not hard to learn) I found I could make my white shirts stay perfectly snow-white forever. The biggest problem I found with hand-washing was that it tended to wear the clothing out more quickly, because it got cleaned more vigorously. Over time the material would get perceptibly thinner.

For years after returning home from Mexico I'd occasionally get irritated with my dingy clothes and resort to washing them by hand to get them clean. I even bought a very expensive washing machine, hoping that it would do a better job -- it did, but not much better. Now, of course, I've fully assimilated back into the consumerist American culture, so when my clothes get dingy I donate them to Goodwill and buy new ones.

One thing I never did like was line-dried clothes -- machine tumble drying with fabric softeners makes the fabric soft, whereas drying them on the line makes them stiff. That's a matter of personal taste, though. My wife actually installed a clothesline in our back yard last year and uses it in preference to her fancy computerized dryer because she likes the "crisp feel and summery scent" (her words) of line-dried clothes, especially bedsheets. I don't like my sheets to crackle, but sometimes you have to compromise and, well, of all the times in the day that your wife can be mildly annoyed with you, bedtime is a particularly bad one...

Re:On manual vs. machine washing

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought you MORMONS couldnt use modern appliances. Be careful, or you are gonna get shunned by your stake president!

Re:And your point is exactly what?

[Anonymous Coward]

The utility infrastructure is the sole responsibility of the Iraqi's.

Yeah, if they want power so badly, why did they destroy their power grid in the first place!?! Oh wait... that wasn't them, it was us. Bombing and unilateral holds (as a member of the Security Council the US had the power to hold any "oil for food" import contract we say fit) on power and water treatment facility parts are the reason Iraq has poor power and water. And remember, Baghdad has the best power situation in the country. Most people outside the capital are screwed.

hire those guys.

[torpor]

someone with a budget for another person in their department, no matter what it is, just hire those two guys and put them to work getting linux working properly in iraq.

this could be "linux revolution 2.0", wherein starting from actual scratch gives both sides a fair start...

God Bless President Bush

[b17bmbr]

The truth is life here is quite normal. The streets are crowded (way too crowded, traffic is a nightmare), shops are filled with new consumer goods. Restaurants are thriving. Schools are open. People go to work, school, hang out with friends. You see the occasional American humvee or tank roll down the street, but other than that, it's hard to tell you're in a country under occupation and a guerilla war. Much of Baghdad seems like a normal, if poor, third world capital. Not too different from what I've seen in Latin America, say. There are wealthy areas, poor areas, kids playing, all that. A few months ago, I would hear a few explosions every night and a lot of gunfire. It became so common that we'd just ignore it. But these days, those things are so rare that we actually pay attention when they happen.

and maybe now, the millions that lived under the boot of repression will live free, and the hundreds of thousands killed by a genoidal man, their families can see a bright future. maybe in afew years, iraq can become the mesopotamia of old, a thriving, propsperous center of trade, culture, and science. a model to the arab world. so for those of you opposed to the war, it's time to MOVE ON.

Re:God Bless President Bush

[thelinuxjunkie]

Fabulous!
This is what I was thinking the whole time.
So many people are upset with what we are doing, but every time I read an insiders account, I am reminded why I support the war and thank President Bush for protecting us, helping out the Iraqi citizens, and pushing for freedom in the face of liberalism.

Re:God Bless President Bush

[dijjnn]

you are a moron to equate oposition of the war to a disbelief in the improved quality of life for the iraqi people. we opposed the war because we didn't believe that there were weapons of mass destruction. We opposed the war because, like it or not, we live in a world that has become an international community; the US cannot just sachey into another country with a declaration of war in our left, a big middle finger to the UN in our right, and an eye on the corporate dollar if we expect to truly do the world good.

in short, you are a moron, and as such you should not post on slashdot. or reproduce.

Re:God Bless President Bush

[b17bmbr]

i did not suggest that people opposed to the war were opposed to iraqi betterment. it's just that it wasn't gonna happen unless someone, er um, we, did something about it. international community? the very same that let a 100, 200, + hundred thousand kosavars be murdered, that watches as a million congonese are slaughtered, that does nothing while the growing trade in children and women continue. please. finger at the UN? well, when would it enforce its resolutions? i could go on. but, try this:

foreach(@_){$_~=s/hatred/{reason,logic}/g;}

Re:God Bless President Bush

[b17bmbr]

thanks.

Re:God Bless President Bush

[dijjnn]

So, then, we were in Iraq because of the human rights violations?

Silly me, i thought we were there to find weapons of mass destruction. That's what we were told, i believe. If that's why we were there, why didn't we let the weapons inspectors continue with their jobs? I would think that, being weapons inspectors, they would have found weapons if they were there... what's that you say, they didn't find any? Well, there weren't any there, were there.

Face facts, we were there for oil & revenge.

Maybe, just maybe if our politicians started relating the real motivations instead of those statistically shown to generate the most support, then we could rely on those politicians to make decisions about deploying troops for reasons other than national defense or defense of our allies. until that day, i for one will hope that the US will show more concern for the governments of other nations. How can we trust that the decisions of our elected officials are ethical (dare i suggest that they should also be moral) when they lie to us?

Also, perl will never solve the worlds problems; try python.

Re:God Bless President Bush

[Anonymous Coward]

well, let's see, you're not getting oil, and you're not getting revenge. Mabey, just mabey, your nation claimed chems because people like you talk about genocide but do nothing about it.

Re:God Bless President Bush

[clawsoon]

maybe in afew years, iraq can become the mesopotamia of old, a thriving, propsperous center of trade, culture, and science. a model to the arab world.

Funny; that's how my Palestinian friend described Iraq before the sanctions were imposed.

However, now that the war is accomplished, I do hope that the best intentions of the invaders become reality. Peace, democracy, prosperity. I have my doubts, though; occupation is expensive, and it seems just as likely that Americans will tire of it, Iraqis will chafe under it, and when the Americans leave Iraqi society will fragment into warring factions and everything will go to hell.

Here's to hoping that won't happen.

Andrew Klaassen

Re:God Bless President Bush

[b17bmbr]

every intel agency this side of mars said iraq had wmd's. france, russia, britain, israel, us, everyone. as it turns out, with recently released docs, it seems the only ones who WEREN'T in iraq for oil were bush/cheney. the french, russians, et al., were all bought and paid for with iraqi oil. but, hey, their opposition was on principal, right? which means only one thing, not he never had them, but where did they go? my guess, syria. he kept the prgorams, dumped the evidence. as for python, you are right. i recently started with python, after yeares with perl. python is the shiznit. it is an awesome language. hopefully it can get a JIT compiler to rival java's, then jacva will be toast.

Sneakernet??

[jkitchel]

What about burning a bunch of CDs full of the latest linux info? It wouldn't take much to put the linux.org and several other sites onto CD then ship 100 CDs over there. Since they don't have reliable or cheap connections, it would almost be like donating $100 dollars to the LUG (minus the $25-30 bucks to buy and send them). They could give them away for free or charge $.50. Either way, everyone would benefit.

iLie

[Anonymous Coward]

Iraq Linux Infrastructure Endevour

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[scrotch]

Trading a flakey electrical grid for being safe from midnight abductions, rapes and torture is an easy trade to make

If you read this interview, you'll find that the streets are empty at night because of fear of "crime, car-jacking, murder, rape". So perhaps the trade isn't complete quite yet...

I believe it will get better. It is obviously transitional now. I believe it Will be better than it was under Saddam. But it ain't easy yet.

We should all look carefully to get a sense of where this guy is coming from. We can do it with easy to understand numbers. He says in one spot that $200/mo. is a fortune to most Iraqis. In another he says that $500 a month would let a guy work full time for Linux advocacy. In another spot, he says he pays more than $600 a month for his DSL line - upgraded from the $200+ base price.

So the perspective we have is that of a man who can spend two Iraqi fortunes for his internet connection...
I'm not going to say he should be doing something else with the money. I'm not going to suggest that I spend my money in a 'better' way. I will say that we should all pay attention to this. We should all take in to account who's speaking and what their experience might be before we decide to base our estimation of an entire country on their perspective.

Re:And your point is exactly what?

[Keith McClary]

The utility infrastructure is the sole responsibility of the Iraqi's. They want us out of their country so damn bad, so be it, let them fall back into the backward third world like the others who despise us. As for me, I do wash whenever I want, and leave my TV on when I am away. Last night I ordered pizza and threw half away.

If you're in the US, the energy you're happily wasting most likely comes from backward third world places like Saudi, Venezuela or Canada. World oil production is in decline so you will soon need to dip into Iraq's 35% of world oil reserves to maintain your profligate lifestyle.

So what is YOUR point, exactly?

I would go.

[torpor]

As a geek with a passion for history, I'd be very happy to add Iraq to the roster of places to have worked.

Remember, a Free Iraq is a Rich Iraq, and to me that means "new tech market in interesting areas".

I donated... Did you

[wheeda]

Only $5, but that infinitely more than usual. Please donate...

Re:I donated... Did you

[vik]

Yup. A little money goes a long way to promote Linux there.

Vik :v)

Re:I donated... Did you

[grautgrams]

I donated $5 too, and a lot of people should be able to afford that.

Great interview

[gray_eminence]

I just wanted to say that this interview is one of the most interesting I've read in a while.

I'm going to make a donation right now of whatever I can... I hope others will too - even a small amount.

Re:Why bother?

[Anonymous Coward]

You're a right fucking dick, you know.

No meat? Oh no!

[Anonymous Coward]

They are unlikely to eat much meat--since that's not included in the ration.

Oh, horror of horrors! They are unlikely to eat much meat!

It's a lot easier to eat a nutritious diet on the cheap when you don't eat meat. If eating meat was a goal, they'd probably be malnourished.

Computers per capita

[Anonymous Coward]

>It's impossible to get accurate statistics for pretty much anything in Iraq. But I've found that
>most middle-class families do have a computer.

Does the reporter describe the general situation in the country, or only in Baghdad?

Re:Uruklink? [COMPLETELY OFFTOPIC]

[wtrmute]

Actually, Tolkien got that name by applying standard phonetic changes to a completely made-up 'primitive' root orok (search for 'orch' in this page). He came up with 'orch' in Sindarin and 'urco' in Quenya; in the Black Speech the orks used, it became 'uruk'.

In a completely unrelated note, the Mesopotamian city of Uruk is also known as Erech in the bible.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[QuickSilver_999]

yet everyone has an automatic weapon in his or her home...

There's a problem here? :) If it weren't for stupid rules here in the US, I think a LOT of people would have automatic weapons in their homes. But really, we should send them some shotguns instead. They work better in an urban setting, and don't tend to cause as much damage, since the pellets are usually stopped by decent wall construction.

white folk don't go outside at night...

Yeah, I guess it's better here in the US where in quite a few neighborhoods, white, black, yellow, green, and purple folk don't go outside at night. My neighborhood isn't bad, but I'll bet there are neighborhoods in Bagdad that aren't bad at night either.

bandits are rampant...

Now here we ARE better off... Most of our bandits strike on April 15th, so at least we're prepared and know when they'll hit. :)

It's hard to report that US soldiers were blown up and put a cheerful spin on it,

I'll agree with you there, but by the same token, we could be looking at historic settings, like Vietnam. Everyone wants to compare this to Vietnam. Now, I wasn't around back then (sorry, I was a little too young, just missed being born for it), but how many times in Vietnam did we report every death by chopper crash or plane crash or vehicle crash? Maybe the local news would have something if a local kid got killed in it, but it wouldn't make the major papers or networks except as part of a statistic. I'm not in any way denigrating the sacrifices made by anyone in the armed forces. Death comes one per customer and is pretty damn important to the person he visits. Statistically however, this is not the huge bloodbath that American news tends to make it out to be. I'll bet more Americans were killed in my home state of Pennsylvania today, either through violence, or just through their own actions (driving on icy roads like a maniac perhaps), than have been killed in Iraq in the last week.

but it's not hard to talk about the recovery of a demolished economy and make it sound like peaches and cream.

I don't know about that. It seems like whichever political party is out of power can manage to make an economic recovery sound like the last dying gasps of civilization. Both sides do it in America by using the "Figures never lie, but liars often figure" rule. And, the majority of reports I've been seeing on the network news tend to be the "Iraq is worse off since America went in." type of report, rather than talking about the bustling streets of Bagdad.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[daviddennis]

Do you really like the notion of a country where you can be tortured and killed if you as much as look at Uday Hussein cross-eyed, or have a prettier girlfriend than he?

D

Re:And your point is exactly what?

[Gibberlins]

No, if you are in the US, your electricty most likely comes from coal(mined in the US). I live in Wyoming, and have worked in a coal mine. Anyway, over half of the electricity in the US comes from coal(about 56%). Here is a link from the wyoming mining association with some facts about coal. The info might be a little old, but coal production is on the rise(thanks Bush). In fact, quite a few of the mines set new production records for 2003.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[Anonymous Coward]

The only thing that the people on slashdot agree on is computers are cool.

Actually, I personally hate computers...

Re:satisfied now you Liberal bastards?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you have any books you would like to recommend on the subject? I am looking for something covering the creation of Iraq by the Brittish early last century up to semi-recent times (90's) and then a second one to pick up from the 90's to something pretty recent. This stuff is all a huge mess in my mind and I need to sort it out.

I'm sure you meant...

[IANAAC]

... most likely comes from backward third world places like Saudi and Venezuela, or perhaps Canada. I don't think I've ever heard of Canada being referred to as third world (other than in jokes).

You mean moderators?

[bircho]

"he's -1 subversive. arrest him."

OT: Mexico

[MochaMan]

Totally offtopic now... but where did you live in southern Mexico? I was living in Merida for a year and would move back any day if I could find a decent stable development job... last time I did contract work and taught English to get my FM-3.

Re:OT: Mexico

[swillden]

Totally offtopic now... but where did you live in southern Mexico?

Various places in the state of Veracruz. In order: Santiago Tuxtla (fantastically beautiful little town with lots of history), Tres Valles, Boca del Rio (a suburb of Veracruz), Veracruz, Orizaba and Minatitlan.

I was living in Merida for a year and would move back any day if I could find a decent stable development job

I'm actually just about to start a two-month contract working in Mexico City. I'm hoping to take at least one weekend and hop over to Veracruz to visit old friends and to see a couple of places that I never made it to. Not looking forward to being away from my family so much, but on the whole I'm pretty stoked about it.

I wouldn't mind living there, either, but my wife disagrees and, frankly, there's a lot of advantages to living near family. We might try to go live there for a year or so when my kids are just a little older.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

While you are there try a walk by Sadr city, alone, and let them know you are American, just to let them show their thanks.

Send cash!

[joeface]

Money is what they need most. I just used PayPal to send twenty bucks. Just send some cash. Every penny helps, and these folks need new gear more than I do.

great

[flamelord]

how do i join to help defeat the microsoft juggernaut.

One guess on what you were doing

[Yeechang Lee]

"Two years" in "southern Mexico"? "White clothes"? You've got to be an RM. (I served in Nevada myself, so it was machine washing all the way.)

Re:One guess on what you were doing

[swillden]

:-)

Got it in one... Not too hard, and even easier if you look at my slashdot user page.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[ElGanzoLoco]

Take a flight to Kuwait, and then travel there by land. (supposedly there are buses).

Travelling by land is the best way to know if the situation is "normal" or if it's still a mess.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[iamcadaver]

Ummm. Slashdot is a comunity of many people with different opinons. The only thing that the people on slashdot agree on is computers are cool.

Ummm. Many of us have been around computers long enough to hate them, but this just soundly proves your point. b)

BTW: this is one of the better /. interviews ever.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Stiletto]

Looks like quite a few have pointed out that this reporter's description of Iraq is much nicer than the one put out by the major networks. Of course it is! Bush, Inc. would like you to believe that Iraq is hanging from a thread, with the good strong USA as it's only hope against a collapse into barbarism. More and more independent reports show that Iraq is badly war-torn, but functional and quite capable of returning to self-governance. Definitely NOT a picture our military contracters want you to see.

I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in Iraq

[rbird76]

just not the reasons given for their presence.

Saddam gone is probably a good outcome for Iraq and the world so long as a more stable and democratic government replaces him. Perhaps he prevented something worse from happening, although considering what Saddam and his government became, that is hard to imagine. Saddam's loss is likely to be his people's gain.

Part of my objection to the war is and was tied to my political feelings without rational justification. Part of them, however, is that the reasons given either applied better to other countries (support for terrorism, despotic ruler = Sudan, previous residence of OBL, or NK) or were patently false (or a small amount of evidence was greatly overstated - WMD claims). This is compounded by GWB's previous opinion on WJC's "nation building" - after previous administrations, it would be nice to hope that one's words mean something.

This is somewhat OT - just that I think most of the left-leaning people here appreciate the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan and what they are trying to do. The soldiers go because it's a job they can do and because they believe the job to be right (else they wouldn't have chosen to join the military). Our job as a nation is to make sure that what we send them to do is right or as close as we can figure out.

SBC St. Louis

[Anonymous Coward]

The VP of sales for the St. Louis region South Western Bell told me that she was running Windows 97. Actually, she was very adament about my software being able to run on Windows 97.

"It has to work on Windows 97"
"I'm sorry, it won't work on Windows 97"
"WHAT? You said it would run on Windows!"
"Yes, it will...but there isn't a Windows 97"
"Then HOW IS IT ON MY COMPUTER???"

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[sheilagh]

Isn't he a reporter? I suspect his DSL is subsidized by the company he works for.

Don't send money!

[Anonymous Coward]

I've often heard that these oil countries have some of the highest per capita earnings in the world.

Why should anyone send them money? Shouldn't Iraqis be fighting to insure they control how the oil money is spent and distributed, rather than looking for handouts for PCs?

Or are they so cowed by radical religion and the Saddam era that the idea of requiring fairness from their government and industries is (psychologically speaking) beyond their grasp?

Handouts are not the answer. Demanding a government that is of the people and for the people is the proper way to promote Linux, and the proper way to create a civil society.

The United States once had such a government; make it happen in Iraq and hold onto it for as long as you can--as the United States has proven, freedom and liberty are sweet but fleeting; as your government ages, the moneyed elite will eventually crush or erode your freedoms.

Take this opportunity while you can (no surrender, no retreat) separate religion and state, demand that a sizable portion of the oil income is distributed to all the people, limit the tenure and power of your leaders, deal with the endless stream of corruption harshly as it is uncovered, make it clear that armed foreigners entering your nation illegally will be tortured, shot dead and tried (in that order).

Then you can proudly state that you have earned your freedom, then you can enjoy it while it lasts. All power corrupts, and eventually the corrupt will chip away at your freedoms until the next cycle of things.

It is the way of the world.

In the meantime

[Anonymous Coward]

Set up a p2p client and download the hundreds of technical manuals found online; printing them won't cost much.
If you feel uncomfortable with the idea of showing for a moment the middle finger to the copyright holders even for the purpose of helping the Iraqi people, take a look at www.oscarindia.com They sell new books at extremely low prices.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[Anonymous Coward]

I agree. Computers are cool.

Mollie's Job

[crucini]

Mollie's Job, by Bill Adler, documents the loss of one American manufacturing job and its migration to Mexico. An interesting read.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[ivan256]

Why would he want that? Seems to me he wants us to believe that things went well and we're practically ready to get out of there. He wants us to believe we were bringers of good. At least that's what you'd think he wants based on his actions.

Re:satisfied now you Liberal bastards?

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember who supported Saddam in the 80's.

Re:Surprise, Surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

Try the same in a slummy part of LA. Make sure they know you're a white richboy.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[EugeneK]

Republicans convienently forget the following:

I don't give a fuck what Clinton or Albright think or thought!

AND I'm against the war and the occupation!

What a fucking combination huh?

Iraq's first Lock Up Garage?

[mex666]

Help, my brain has been corrupted with real estate acronyms!

Re:I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in I

[Anonymous Coward]

as somebody who gets sick of the childish arguments about stuff people know nothing about on here, i appreciate you supplying a level-headed opinion without a hot-headed provocation (even though i may disagree with you fundamentally).

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[afinnie]

Hey, I don't even like computers. They give me repetitive strain injuries, bad posture, and headaches. And on top of all that they make me lazy (aka I read slashdot rather than getting work done). I think computers are terrible... but I'm an addict, which is why I'm here.

I don't think he knew.

[gd2shoe]

I think if President Bush is halfway intellegent, and if he thought there was a sizeable chance that they would find nothing, he would have realized the election fix that he's in right now. He either honestly thought there were WMD, thought there probably were, or planned to plant them there (which would likely have really blown up in his face). If it was a bald face lie, he should have waited a little longer.

Even Kay said that the intellegence community owed President Bush an appology.


My two cents.

Re:I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in I

[pavon]

It's nice to hear an honest, levelheaded opinion on slashdot. It's funny - I felt almost the exactly the same way before the war and came to the opposite conclusion. I knew (and so did all of the conservatives I talked to) that what the President was saying was mostly political spin. We weren't going to war to liberate the people of Iraq, or because the WMD were a real threat, or because there were substantial links with terrorism. But at the same time the "blood for oil" motivations that the liberals were claiming seemed just as unlikely to me. So from my point of view all I saw was both sides yelling mindless reterict(sp?) and neither side actually give any meaningfull argument for or against the war.

In the end I decided that I really thought that this would be a good thing for both the people of Iraq and stability of the middle east, because it was truely in the best interests of the US to rebuild the country into a real democracy. And I couldn't think of any good reason not to go to war, except for the principle of the matter. So I chose not to oppose the war.

As the war got closer my conclusion became more polarized and irrational. Probably mostly because I live near a liberal arts college and work on a military base and was constantly harrassed by idiots whose entire political ideology consists of the phrase "f**k the man", and who look down on anyone who doesn't think like them as a stupid sheep who believe everything that the Man says. It would have been really nice to find someone who was actually willing to talk about the war.

Re:satisfied now you Liberal bastards?

[Rayonic]

Read this article about the intelligence failure surrounding WMD in Iraq.

Also, remember that there is an independant investigation going into this very issue in the U.S..

Iraq was a world leader in education

[Anonymous Coward]

...in the early 1980's. Saddam killed Universities when the war to conquer it's neighbor Iran became unpopular. He cracked down on academia after the 91 Gulf War. Iraq hasn't been a world leader in education since then.

I Bet 20 Years Ago You Were Sane

[Anonymous Coward]

Then, some insane "world leader" decided to use far away Iraq as it's warhound against the building up fundamentalism in neighbouring Iran. This insane leader gave Iraq money to buy weapons and sent military people to train them.

Saddam Hussein wanted to take over Iran in order to control the Persian Gulf. This is the same reason he took over Kuwait and tried to push into Saudi Arabia. That wasn't even 16 years ago. 20 years ago Saddam was right in the middle of his war with Iran. Your skewed 'recollection' doesn't jive with reality.

Now another insane leader of the same country invaded Iraq, destroyed virtually all infrastructure, and possibly killed more civilians than the dictator Iraq was suffering from during his whole regency.

If the most wackjob leftist site only claims 10,000 (although they can only confirm 1,500). We know that this many children died in a month under Saddam Hussein who diverted all resources to his military-industrial complex when he could have - should have - fed his people. UN missions have uncovered mass graves worth hundreds of thousands of people - kurds and shias. 50,000 kurds died in one day alone with Saddams henchmen used deadly poison gasses on Halabja. Again, the plain facts contradict your blithe lies.

All this just so that they can pilfer Iraq's oil and boost their own rotten economy (of which only the trade deficit can impress nowadays) with lucrative rebuilding contracts.

And oh the oil - which we are paying the market equivalent of $65 a barrel for - the classic retreate of mind-numbed leftists like yourself. Of course, there are the lucrative building contracts, which are barely even profitable for the companies doing the rebuilding - most of which are subcontracted out to regional providers who aren't US companies. Get real man - you're pathetic.

Re:I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in I

[spun]

I am more than left leaning, I'm a liberal nut, and I support our troops. They aren't to blame for what our country has done. It isn't their job to ask questions, but to risk their lives in our defense wherever our leaders tell them to.

I also think that eventually, Iraq will be better off without Saddam. But none of this changes the fact that the only real justification given for this war was our own immanent danger. This reason has since been shown to be totally false, and their needs to be an accounting for that.

Re:I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in I

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anyone actually listen to David Kay? He said that prewar Iraq was more of a threat than we thought. Sure, no fresh WMD, granted. But if you study the history of Saddam, you'll quickly see that he wasn't about to just up & comply AFTER the inspectors left in the late 90s. He had months to move/hide the WMD (Syria?). It shouldn't surprise anyone that they didn't find any.

If you were (& some of you may be) a pot dealer & I was the local Sheriff, & I announced to you & everyone else that in 6 months I was going to raid your house, how much pot do you think I'd find when I got there?

And thanks to the fellow from the 101st. Welcome home.

Linux

[Shane Warne]

After all they have been thru, why must we inflict further punishment on them by using Linux?

Re:Careful, bud...

[Anonymous Coward]

so for those of you opposed to the war, it's time to MOVE ON.

Excuse me, people are being killed in Iraq

[beforewisdom]

People are being killed in Iraq.

Children, Americans.

People are living without the basic necessities, dieing of malnutrition, starvation, exposure, disease,terroritsts.

Isn't anyone bothered with postings about linux usage in Iraq in light of all of these things?

Here is a list of soilders ( already out of date ) that were killed in Iraq. These soilders were people who could have been in your LUG and now who never will be:

http://www.thousandreasons.org/wardead.html

Re:Excuse me, people are being killed in Iraq

[Anonymous Coward]

People get killed in Israel, and we talk about Linux there.

People get killed in Munich, and we talk about Linux there.

People get killed in Austin, Texas, and we talk about Linux there.

Slashdot is a TECH forum. If it were Amnesty International, we would NOT be talking Linux.

Re:Excuse me, people are being killed in Iraq

[dbIII]

People are being killed in Iraq....Isn't anyone bothered with postings about linux usage in Iraq in light of all of these things?

It's potential infrastucture, you can run a transport scheduling system on linux to get food to people, or keep medical records on a linux system. Things like electricity and telephones save lives, and computer operating systems can too. Life in wartime goes on.

Re:Excuse me, people are being killed in Iraq

[DankNinja]

Let's Slashdot is 'news for nerds'. Linux in Iraq seems to qualify a litte bit more than anti-war propaganda.

OS version

[Anonymous Coward]

Are they using XP or are they going to use that new version I thought I had heard of called Longhorn?

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[Anonymous Coward]

Ummm. Slashdot is a comunity of many people with different opinons. The only thing that the people on slashdot agree on is computers are cool.

Now that I can agree on, however if you look around, posts that praise bush either get no score or a negative score way more often than not, because the selection of moderators on slashdot is very far towards the left. If you want a specific example, then notice that this post has a high troll modifier without even trolling...why do you suppose that is?

As president Eisenhower once said: if you are too far to the left or too far to the right, then you are in the gutter.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[LWATCDR]

I do not disagree that many people Bash Bush. But if I do the same and don't try to see the middle ground than I am no better than they are. The US is becomeing too polarized and if the vast majority in the middle do not speak out and try to bring it back to the middle I fear for my country. The fact that Dean is loosing to Kerry does bring some hope to me. I am not all that fond of Kerry but he is more towards the center than Dean is.

Re:satisfied now you Liberal bastards?

[Anonymous Coward]

I am against telling the people of this country that they are in danger from Saddam's weapons of mass destruction and all of that other nonsense Bush spouted.

You are right. Saddam did not gass the Kurds. He didn't murder and attempt genocide on his own citizens.

What a closed-minded idiot you turned out to be. You mother must be embarassed of you!

Why is the web page in English?

[Walles]

The LUG's web page is in English. Why not in the language spoken by most Iraqis?

Re:I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in I

[Anonymous Coward]

You need to learn the difference between the words "defence" and "attack".

Haji = Nigger?

[fantomas]

Umm, isn't "haji" a really rude thing to call someone?

This Army guy seems to think so.

Can anybody tell me the etymology of the word?

Maybe if it's a rude word, and US soldiers are using it casually, that's why they are getting a lot of tension?

Re:Haji = Nigger?

[musicmaker]

I thought Haji was a prefix used to denote that someone had completed the Haj, one of the five pillars of Islam.

no, I didn't hear most of Kay

[rbird76]

It's possible that Iraq moved their WMDs - the fact that we haven't found them (or haven't said so) is no guarantee that they did not have them. We did go to war, however, on the pretext that they positively possessed them (with many statements affirming that position). While Iraq could have dumped them, it is also possible that they didn't possess them when we claim they did - thus it is up to those who claimed otherwise to indicate why they believed Iraq had WMDs.

Ultimately, I believe that Pres. Bush intended to go to Iraq at some point - whether his administration actively deceived people about going to Iraq or merely allowed their desires to supercede a rational view of their intelligence, the reasoning was a mistake. Perhaps not the war (history will tell that), but the reasoning. Ultimately, we are (a variant of) a democracy, and the people are supposed to have a role in the decision to go to war; when that decision is made on the basis of bad (or no) evidence and manipulated by the desires of the people they elected, people have reason to be unhappy with their government.

Re:And your point is exactly what?

[ahdeoz]

And the rest of it comes from Hydro or Gas. All locally grown. The power generated from oil is a significant fourth place finisher, but in America we get most of our oil either at home or from Mexico.

Re:I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in I

[ahdeoz]

You might want to look up a little remembered international court proceeding that took place in Nuremburg. It is a soldier's job to question the orders given to him.

Re:I appreciate the sacrifice of the soldiers in I

[spun]

Does Godwin's Law apply here? Ah, well, I take your point. I should have said, "In the normal course of duty." I don't condone excess violence, I don't think this was a just war, but I DON'T BLAME THE TROOPS. They weren't gassing innocent civilians, m'kay? On the other hand, the senior management at Halliburton, for instance, should face trial. And Bush should face impeachment. I mean, if Clinton was almost impeached for lying about a blowjob, Bush should face the music too. And how about a real investigation into our 'intelligence failures?' I'm still not convinced there was no political pressure involved, after all, Saddam tried to kill Bush's daddy, and there's all that oil over there. Funny thing, conservatives said, "A war for oil? Don't be preposterous!" and what do you know? Halliburton gets caught overcharging the Iraqis for oil.

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[FurryFeet]

The only thing that the people on slashdot agree on is computers are cool.

You just ticked off a whole lot of overclockers...

Re:Slashdot wrong about Iraq Liberation

[dbIII]

"Slashdot and its clueless followers sure look stupid now don't they"

People told us all about disappearing Niger Uranium also look stupid. It doesn't matter who looks stupid, whatever flimsy premise for the war, and whether bandits rule the cities by night or not, it's good to see that things are getting better. At the moment they've traded one military dictatorship for another that is less likely to drag them off and kill them, but with enough effort to keep criminals or crazies from running the place things will get a lot better.

It wasn't liberation, it was occupation, no need to use marketing speak here. Occupation isn't necessarily a bad thing. Japan wasn't liberated, it was occupied, and many good things as well the bad came out of that.

I don't use a computer...

[ReyTFox]

you insensitive clod!

I use the phone lines MANUALLY.