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Refunding an Xbox Live Annual Renewal Fee?
craigandthem is curious about the following: "Recently, I was going over my credit card statement, and noticed a charge I didn't remember making. After investigating, I determined that it was an auto-renewal for my Xbox Live account (for an Xbox that hasn't worked in months). I called to have the fee refunded, and Microsoft refused. They informed me that since it had been longer than 60 days from when my account was renewed, I was not eligible for a refund. The problem lies in that they didn't charge my credit card until December 26, despite renewing my account on November 15. I feel that this was done to increase the odds that I'd only be aware of the charge after it was too late to have reversed. They also claim I had fair warning I was going to be charged, since they sent me an email detailing my upcoming renewal. The email was sent to an old university account, which was de-activated after I graduated, and therefore never received. Have any fellow Slashdot readers received similar treatment, and if so, were you able to recover your money? Legally, is it my obligation to keep my Xbox Live information up to date to avoid this dilemma?"
They are treading on thin ice. Take it up with your bank.
At least for things not done in person. With a credit card you can simply call your company and contest the charges. Maybe enough people doing that will send a message.
Those who don't know me, probably shouldn't trust me. Those that do know me, DEFINITELY shouldn't trust me.
Don't be surprised by anything on your credit card statement. Check them at least once a week online or by phone. Or every day if you use your card a lot.
Whenever you see something you don't recognize (or in this case, didn't expect), immediately, or the next morning, call the responsible party (Microsoft). Do what you can to resolve the issue.
If you can't resolve the issue, because of *your* screwup (which might be the case, since Microsoft made the rules pretty clear I think), then too bad.
But if you still think you have a "case", immediately *WRITE* the credit card company a concise letter describing the problem. There are usually instructions on the back of the statement.
I have found that most of these things are quickly resolved by the credit card company. The merchants do not like chargebacks or investigations from the credit card companies and will solve the problem pretty quick.
In your situation, you *may* get results if you insist, calling several times over a few days, talking to different people, and generally being firm. But if you don't, you can't really press the issue because you didn't act immediately.
This is really not an issue with Microsoft or the Xbox service. It happens with anybody that wants your money.
Be sure to read all your agreements, and if they have deadlines, put them in your calendar! (i.e., Xbox auto-renews in 30 days, 15 days, tomorrow).
Good luck!
Take your Xbox...put it on the floor next to your TV. Turn it on (may I suggest "Dead or Alive Beach Volleyball"?!?!). Take a bath.
Come back when you're all wet. Take a sheet rock saw and start sawing away at the Xbox's power cord while you're all wet.
Soon, the cord will fray, and it will electrocute you. Now you're dead! This is a good thing, because you're no longer bound by the laws of time/space.
Go back in time and develop Cinnamon Rice Krispies instead of Cocoa Krispies. Then leave a sheet rock saw under your couch so that your future self will be able to use it to kill himself, setting you free.
If you follow these easy instructions, the Xbox will be free of all demons! And it will stay crunchy in milk!
(-1, Raw and Uncut is the only way to read)
Unfortunately I'm guessing it is, though I've never looked at the XBox agreement contract in particular. It's just that ToS agreements tend to thoroughly cover all such bases. For example, when you have a Paypal account you "waive your rights to credit card consumer protection laws, and that you may not issue a chargeback for anything you purchase using your credit card and PayPal account" (or...at least according to paypalsucks.com). Though, I'll admit I tend to just press "I Agree" and not worry about it; if they actually abused such contracts consumers would revolt...right?
As a couple people have suggested, challenge the charge through your credit card company. You'll have to double-check your credit card usage agreement, but for most US cards, you have 60 days from the first bill the charge appears on to challenge something.
Once it's been challenged, it is up to the vendor (Microsoft) to verify with the credit card company that you really did authorize the charge.
In most cases, this won't happen, you'll never have to pay the bill, and it will go away.
I don't have an Xbox or a Live account, but here is what I would do.
1. Submit a Better Business complaint in from the website www.bbb.org
2. Dispute this fee with your credit card company. Explain to them everything you just told us.
3. Sit back and watch the 2 big companies battle it out.
A company simply can not charge you for services you no longer need. Just because it's their policy to charge you doens't mean that it was legal or even that it was morally right. Once you involve the BBB into something that is questionable they seem to make the company turn itself around.
I used to work for U.S. Bank (in a non-technical capacity), and there is something called a "charge-back."
A charge-back is basically where the credit card company refunds a charge to a customer by withholding (current or future) funds from a merchant. Credit card companies hold a surprisingly large amount of power over merchants, even one such as MS.
The way a charge-back works is a customer tells the credit card issuer that they are disputing a charge, gives the reason for the dispute, and states that they have tried in good faith to resolve the dispute with the merchant but have been unsuccesful.
The credit card company will review your information, and more than likely, issue a credit to your next statement.
Look for a "Fraud / Lost or Stolen Card" number on the back of your card, and give them a call. If that call center doesn't handle those issues they can direct you quickly to who can.
When you talk to the right person, be rational, be reasonable, and don't ask for Gates' head on a stick sharpened on both ends. Simply ask them to charge the X-Box subscription back to MS because you were billed for a service you never received, and MS refuses to come to an amicable resolution.
It sounds like you have a pretty solid case. Good luck!
- Neil Wehneman
My legal education, in nifty podcast format
Either way, when you entered in the access code, postal address, email address, and CC # the Live! system put up a big full screen text window on your TV that said (paraphrasing), "Your account is good for X days from today. If you don't cancel your account before then it will be automatically renewed and your CC will be charged."
They then warned you of the impending CC charge via email. That you didn't update your email address with them isn't their fault, it's yours.
Bottom line - You agreed to the Terms of Service. You agreed to allow Microsoft to charge your CC for a yearly renewal, you didn't cancel by the date specified, and you didn't provide Microsoft with current contact information.
Next time you should remember when you enter into a revolving service contract that the bill will come due at some point unless you take responsibility for cancelling the service if you no longer need or want it.
Oh my gosh! Microsoft has like 45+ billion dollars in cash, and they feel the need to resort to stealing $50 from recent college grads to pad their accounts a little more, and then say something like "No! You can't have it back! Nyah nyah nyah!"
Whenever someone charges your credit card without authorization, you have the recourse of telling your credit card company to deny the charges. They'll start an investigation in which the charger will have to prove (to some measure of proof which probably varies from cc company to cc company) that you requested the charge and that the services/goods were rendered/delivered.
The few times I've done this (with American Express) I've gotten the charges refunded with very little work on my part. YMMV, but it has a good shot of working, and it puts the onus on MS Live to get the money rather than on you.
If you're real anti-MS, you can probably call your Better Business Bureau and get them involved first, since it sounds to me like you have a pretty reasonable case against them.
I know god exists. I read it on the internet, so it must be true.
They should at least pro-rate and refund the difference between when you cancelled and the end of the next renewal period.
Since XBOX's have unique identifiers, how hard is it for them to find out in their logs, the last time you used it anyways.....
Well if you're stuck with it you might as well use it. Buy another xbox and use your subscription.
OR you could sell your subscription on ebay? At least you'd get something for it.
In linux libertas
I got burned in a similar way by Gamespot complete. I joined a year ago. I got at least once a month spams from them which I eventually just started deleting without reading. Then one month I had a weird charge on my card. If I recall correctly, it didn't even say gamespot on it and I had to call the number on the bill to figure it out (I may be misremembering that part).
Anyway apparently one of those spams they sent me was a reminder that they were going to autorenew my membership (which I had forgotten i had even had). So I called them up to complain and they were all "Did you read the terms of service?" well, yes -- A YEAR AGO. The operator game me additude. I hung up called my credit card comapany told them i didn't want to pay that charge. Blingo, charge was erased from my bill.
http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
I work for an ISP, and that's basically how we handle billing disputes. We're a bit more lenient if a customer hasn't used their account in a couple months and would like a refund on the current bill; however, companies can't call up and make sure that you would like to renew your subscription each month/year. If you didn't update your email address or phone number, and agreed to the TOS, your luck in getting a refund without being a jerk to billing is pretty much nil.
sigs are dumb.
If I have this straight, your argument is approximately as follows:
You: "Hey, I didn't use my wireless phone at all this month - why are you charging me for it?"
Phone company: "You initiated service with us, agreed to the service contract and set up auto-pay using your credit card number."
You: "But you never sent me a paper bill to my new address!"
Phone company: "Oh, so you moved without telling us? How were we supposed to send you the auto-bill receipts if you didn't tell us when you moved?"
You: "This fucking sucks! I'm going to post on Slashdot!"
Stop whining. You are responsible for your neglegence - not Microsoft. You *asked* them to charge you.
Moral of the story is: Don't buy shit you're not going to use, then act all suprised when you actually have to pay for it.
If this were a reoccurring fee with TiVo or Apple or a Linux company, I'd say that you had fair warning and it's your fault for not protecting your money. I'd say that these things happen from time to time and the best thing to do is to suck it up and learn from the experience.
But since this is Microsoft they have maliciously cheated you out of your money and you should do everything you can do to get it back. Call your credit card company and accuse them of fraud. Do it so that they don't extend their IE monopoly into the game console arena and so they'll give away all their source code under the GPL!
If this were some company that Slashdot wasn't predisposed to I'd probably have advice somewhere in the middle of those two answers.
Why can't I moderate something "Wrong" or at least "Grossly Misinformed"?
Let me get this straight, you didn't bother to check your credit card statements until months after you got them, then found that you'd been charged for a service that you had forgotten to cancel. So Microsoft's only fault is not going out of their way to let you know that your Xbox Live subscription would be renewed, the rest is your forgetfulness and/or laziness.
What you can do now: dispute the charges with your bank/CC company. Or keep calling MS and hope you get a sympathetic person on the phone.
What to do next time: Read your statements more than once a year. Make sure you cancel any renewing accounts that you aren't using (mark it in a calendar if you need to).
And yes, it is your responsibility to keep your info up to date. MS (and any other company you do business with) has no idea when you change emails, phone numbers, or addresses unless you tell them. And if you forget to tell them, it's hardly their fault that they can't remind you to cancel that account you're not using or they'll renew it.
I never have and never will.
So how many pirated copies of Windows and Office do you have, anyway?
Wow, you've never given any money to Microsoft? You're my hero! Hey, let's all worship AC because he said MS sucks!
Yeah, great. You hate MS. Unfortunately they're not at fault here, it's the idiot that gave a company (could be any company, mind you) the authority to charge his card, and then got pissed when they did just that.
...and when I've had to contact my credit card companies about mysterious charges on my bill, the first question they ask nowadays is whether it's an ISP, website or something else with automatic billing. They're certainly familiar with this phenomenon and I'm guessing they're not going to be wildly sympathetic. It can't hurt to try, but don't get your hopes up too high.
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I work for a major credit card processor, First National Merchant Solutions, but I don't usually handle chargebacks. I'm still at work though, so I asked a coworker who does.
You're probably curious about chargeback rights. This is where you talk to your bank, explain why you believe that charge wasn't fair or valid, and ask them to get your money back. I'm going to describe these chargeback rights.
"Merchant" means a business who is charging your card. "Cardholder" is you. "Issuer" is the bank that issued your card.
The merchant must have given you prior notice that they were going to bill you. I'm not familiar with the terms & conditions you agreed to, but they may have given you this notification when you signed up.
If you called and cancelled the service within a reasonable amount number of days before you were billed, and they still charged you, AND you haven't received any material goods or services from them, you can charge the sale back.
Also if you never received notification that they were going to charge your account again, you can charge the sale back.
You probably can't charge the sale back claiming that they never provided the goods or services you requested. They will probably claim that your account has been capable of logging in and accessing the service, so they will argue that meets their fulfillment obligations.
I'll refer you to my company's "Chargeback Case Studies" section of its web site. http://www.foomp.com -- click on "REFERENCE DESK" at the top center, then click "Fraud & Loss" at the fourth link down in the body of the page. This section of the site describes the common chargeback reasons, and gives a case study for each chargeback type. This list doesn't include all of the rare chargeback types out there, but it's most of the common ones.
Keep in mind you can't argue a chargeback case like a lawyer. You can't say you called him to cancel...and you already returned the merchandise...and you never received the merchandise...and you've never heard of this merchant before now. You must pick one reason and go with it. If you pick a weak chargeback reason and the chargeback is reversed, you may not get another chance to file another chargeback with a different reason. (You will probably be allowed to rebut the merchant's allegations, making this a 'second chargeback'.)
If you feel you're entitled to a chargeback (because you read about a chargeback case study very similar to your situation) but your bank insists you cannot charge the sale back, the bank may be in violation of Visa/Mastercard regulations. If you feel they are, complain to Visa or Mastercard. You could find out the bank was right all along -- or the bank could find out you were right. If the bank was in error, they could be fined by Visa/Mastercard or (in VERY extreme cases) have their rights to issue those cards revoked.
The opinions expressed above are mine, and not necessarily those of my employer. We are an "acquirer" -- we provide services to merchants, so we're used to helping businesses who are on the defending side of chargeback disputes. Acquirers don't usually go around giving customers advice anyway.
--Michael Spencer
Actually this just happened to me.
I noticed in December a charge on my CC from Microsoft Online Services. I was quite surprised as, like you, i had not used X-Box live for several months (read 8), and had expected to be involved in any sort of re-bill process (ie a message on the X-Box). The whole Live! sign up process was very difficult, with a whole heck of a lot of questions, and I was under the impression that they took down my CC only to confirm i was age for some of the content. I found it ludicris that I needed to give my CC# to the company whose service I had already paid for at the store...
I caught it quicker than you did, and called them in December and spoke to someone there (3 forwards and 20 minutes on hold later) who eventually relented and offered a refund. I waited over a month and saw nothing on my CC. So I called back on the 3rd, spoke to someone else who said that they had cancelled the service, I had a credit on my account, but they wern't actually planning on sending that refund to my card. After more haggling, more hold time etc, they agreed to refund my card.
All in all X-Box Live! was a difficult, expensive service to sign up for with unclear purchasing terms. I'm not happy with it, but I should have my money back soon....
paul reinheimer
Complain. Complain to your CC company. Complain Microsoft. Complain to press. Call them criminals. Maintain that you haven't used their service in over 6 months. Tell them everything you told us.
That's a load of horse sh*t.
It's like how the gyms that require you to notify them in writing by snail mail to cancel your account. There's a reason why people have been taking them to court and winning, it's underhanded.
Unfortunately, it's not so easy to do something about. If you used a credit card (as opposed to a debit card), it should be relatively easy to get the charge cancelled, like mentioned in an earlier post. If not, stop by at your local court house and pick up a small claims form. Specify the amount as $70 (Xbox fee) + ~$100 (your time and effort coming to court), and most likely they'll refund it before the court date comes, or they won't even show up, which means you win by default. (It's not worth their money to fight it.)
Use the court system to your advantage, for once, and put them in the same positiion that they put small companies, i.e. the settlement is worth less than their legal fees... Total cost to you? Somewhere between $2 and $15
First off, call your credit card company/bank RIGHT NOW and dispute the charges. You'll probably be fine.
Legally speaking, he short answer is this: if you clicked "I agree" to anything, you're technically bound by it, so long as it is legally enforceable in your state. If the agreement said they were going to charge you, it's not their responsibility to track you down and remind you of it; you've already agreed once. If however, they sent you an e-mail saying that they were going to charge you for it after you agreed to something else that was free, that's technically credit card fraud.
That said, the slightly longer answer is good news: So long as you catch a given charge early enough, most disputes will probably be in your favor. This will, of course, depend on your bank. But I've rarely had problems, and I've never had to pay an unauthorized charge in the end.
The exact policy will vary from bank to bank and credit card to credit card. The general rule is that you can file a dispute with them for any charge within sixty days of the charge; NOT sixty days from the product and/or service. This includes electronic funds transfers and other debits, and electronically processed checks, check-by-phone, etc. if it's a bank... though not for checks with your signature on them. Some financial institutions will allow longer time-frames for some or all types of charges. Some make distinctions between blatant fraud, and "normal" situations like these, where a vendor charges for a product or service that does not live up to what was promised.
Microsoft's policies may very well be that they won't process a refund after sixty days. However, it's not like they can prove you've actually used it, since your X-box has been out of commission since before that time. This will only matter later, if they dispute your dispute. Odds are, they won't, since they won't have a signature on file... unless you were foolish enough to mail something into them. ;-) As far as your bank/credit card company is concerned, you've got until February 26th (i.e. 60 days after the CHARGE) or later, depending on their policies. Check it out. Remember, it's the SIGNATURE that matters most, and you can sometimes get out of it even then. You just have to demonstrate that you received less than you were promised for the charge, something that isn't that difficult in the litigious society that we live in.
File the dispute, and you should be fine. From a social engineering perspective, I have found it useful to detail this process to the customer service rep you're speaking with, explaining that you will simply file a dispute with your bank and you'll get your money back anyway, in addition to causing their credit-card processor to charge them extra fees for the chargeback. Show them that it would just be less trouble for everyone involved if they will simply issue a refund. If you are clearly knowledgeable and they also understand the situation, they often back down... because they know that it's true and will only cost them more. But be nice about it. If you are to firm, you'll just piss them off and they make you go through it anyway, just to make your life harder. Because they also know that it's not costing THEM more; just the company.
Here's your opportunity to gouge the company everyone's always complaining about, on their own ground: legally. ;-)
That's not really fair. If you read the article carefully, they "renewed" his account on November 15th, but didn't actually apply the charge to his credit card until December 26th. Given that could have been the first day of his billing cycle, the company may not have mailed out his statement until January 26th, which he may have just gotten this week. At the beginning of the article he says "recently" as in maybe he stewed over this for a week or two and decided to post on /.
I picked up one of the 12 month packs back when they were first released in Canada, after getting it home I spent about 25 minutes getting it set up (running a cable - 1 minute, entering informtation - 24minutes). I have a longish last name (10 letters), and kept messing up something in my address (also long) so I had to re-enter all the information from scratch.
I only remember a welcome screen after that, and options for MotoGP and Whacked!.
When I later spoke to people at X-Box Technical Support (i had to get mine repaired) they explained to me that they took my CC# down during the set up process to ensure I would have a method to continue the service in the future. I very much felt that I would be involved in any sort of re-billing option.
paul reinheimer
Use a single use credit card number, such as Private Payments from American Express. That, or buy a Webcertificate for exactly the amount of the first year's subscription. I've found these useful for buying services that I only want once, but either won't sell the service or charge an outrageous fee for not using recurring billing.
One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
This is the perfect situation for one time use numbers (the one I personally use is MBNA ShopSafe). If it is a $19.99 annual fee (I have no idea what it is, I use PS2 and PC games), then you create a credit card with a spending limit of $20 (and 11 month expiration). They cannot charge you more than that. Then, one of two things happens. (1) After 11 of the 12 months they call you with a friendly reminder that your card expires soon - so you either cancel then or go and increase spending limit and expiration of fake credit card. (2) After 12 months, they try to charge to a now expired card, fail, and either contact you or your service is just shut off. If you wanted the service back, call them up and give them a new card number. :)
- RR
I should put something clever here. Maybe someday.
I kind of agree, this kind of business practice doesn't really sound all that different from most other re-curring credit card charges.
When I change ISP, I have to give them 3 months prior notice (because I pay quarterly), it seems to be the same deal.
Sucks I know, but I don't think there's really a legal response.
Microsoft doesn't require a notice in writing delivered by snail mail for a cancellation, though. It's not underhanded; it's what he agreed to. I agree that it's shitty, but he needs to learn to read agreements that he makes himself subject to. Those were the terms, he said "yes", and now he's upset that he's being held to them.
Every once in a while I like to masturbate a new word into my vocabulary, even if I don't know what it means.
Go write one of those tech magazines that deal with readers problems. Its amazing how quickly companies will roll over when they get an inquiry from a magazine asking them why they're screwing around with other people's time/money/hardware/etc. I Can't name the magazine I'm thinking of, but that might be a quick fix for your problems.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
Try Microsoft again, call them and also write them a letter. When you call them, don't be abusive, but be a pain in the ass and don't get off the phone until you get the refund or talk to the Supervisor, then HIS manager. The supervisor may say that the manager isn't working right now, then just keep the supervisor busy as long as you can. Ask them to provide a list of every time you've accessed the service. Ask them to provide you with the agreement to have the recurring charges take place. Ask them to send you the document you signed to authorize this. Ask them to send you any proof they actually sent the notification email as you have never received it. Automatically recurring fees every year without giving you the option to opt-out are ridiculous. It's just too easy to forget to cancel... I think companies count on that, I wonder how many recurring payments are people that just forgot to cancel...
I work for a cell phone company and we had quite a problem with credit card fraud. We would have hundreds of fraudulent refills over the automated phone system each month. We would get a notice from VISA with information on the dispute, and they'd take $15 from our account. We then had two weeks to send VISA a document the cardholder signed authorizing the charges. Since they refilled over the phone, we didn't have one of course. Since we couldn't provide one, they'd take the money out of our account to give back to the cardholder along with another $15 fee.
If Microsoft won't give you you're money back, call your credit card company and dispute the charge. What I would do is say that I never authorized the charge and never received any service (you didn't if you haven't played on X-BOX live again), ask them to prove that you did. If Microsoft doesn't have a signed piece of paper they can send in, they won't win. Don't mention that you signed up for the service that renews each year, concentrate on the single charge that is in dispute.
Any frustration and/or anger he is feeling now should be directed at himself for failing to fully understand his responsibilities when he entered into a business contract with Microsoft.
There is need to involve the court system in this. It would be just another useless lawsuit tying up an already overstressed and abused court system.
Gettng a chargeback from the CC company for this would be at best underhanded and at worst immoral or fraudulent. He was not charged for something he didn't approve. He was charged for something he forgot about. Chargebacks are not a refund for stupidity. The more people abuse chargebacks the less chance the CC companies will grant them to people with valid complaints. Besides, like another poster said, the second he calls the CC company he will be asked, "Was this for a subscription service you agreed to?" The CC companies are already sick to death of people buying a month's pr0n subscription online and then calling 30 days later trying to get their money back for those "obviously fraudulent" charges that appeared on their bills.
The only respectable thing for the original poster to do is to admit to himself he forgot to cancel the account, pay the $50 and learn a lesson from this.
nt
pooptruck
I have a friend who's an xbox freak. He cancelled his subscription due to some very long term traveling overseas.
He battled with M$ support nearly an entire month before they would stop charging him. No, he never got a refund.
When I read this post it reminds me of the same type of BS. Since I am a PS2 owner, I have no idea how all these xbox-live subscription really goes.
You Have Up To 3 Years To Initiate A Chargeback With Your Credit Card Company. 90% Of The Time The Consumer Will Win, Especially Since There Is No Signature, If They Have No Signature From You, They Have No Case.
Yes; but one wonders why he bothered posting in the first place.
You really screwed the pooch with this one. First of all, your argument hinges upon microsoft not being aware that you had disconnected/changed your email address. They clearly took steps to inform you of the upcoming charges, which were ineffective partially because of your neglect. So therefore, your argument is invalid. My Xbox Live account just came up for renewal myself, but unlike you i planned in advance. By giving M$ a credit card number that i generated online with my banks propriatary software (MBNA Shopsafe). When the renewal charge tried to go through, it was unsuccessfull. I then recieved a nice letter in the mail from M$ alerting me to this. If you had only done something similar, or even more simply...alerted microsoft of your change in email address, you would have been better off. Your only chance is to call your bank and dispute the charges.
"Once upon a time men were lions and machines were mice, but since it was so long ago, now its twice upon a time."
That should answer all your questions.
This guy didn't update his email (they aren't responsible for that) and forgot about the contract he mutual agreed with (they have no obligation to assist him in remembering the details). The only thing you could slightly say MS needs to defend is the time period for charging his account but that's hardly the burden of proof that makes or breaks this case.
To use Xbox Live, you must give them a credit card number.
Good thing it isn't stealing if the person agreed to give you the money and gave you the info you needed to obtain it. Next thing we know, you'll say a personal check is an invalid form of payment...
I have Gamespot Complete. I've had it since it was created.
Near the end of my yearly membership they emailed me multiple times saying I had to physically renew it, even having to reenter the credit card, address, and other personal information.
A legally binding contract is a legally binding contract when you sign it, even if you're a whiney bitch.
Plus, they do mention that all TOS for Xbox Live! are on Xbox.com right in plain sight! Plus, they even give you a nice login message whenever they change it.
--
Internet Explorer (n): Another bug -- that is, a feature that can't be turned off -- in Windows.
Now, where's the Goatse.cx site when you need it...
Money for nothing, pix for free
If the "agreement" was illegal (eg, Microsoft wasn't allowed to automatically renew without at least a confirmation phone call or postal letter) then it doesn't matter if he agreed to automatic renewal. You can't be held to an illegal term in a contract.
PS: I'm not saying that the renewal does need confirmation by post or phone, I'm just offering that as an example. My point is that the contract cannot describe illegal actions, else it is not legally binding.
I ordered a book (via Amazon.com) from an
:-(
Amazon affiliate merchant; Amazon debitted
my credit card.
Merchant eMailed me to say they don't
have what they showed they had, in the
same (new) conditions shown.
They cancelled the order & told Amazon.
Amazon creditted my account with LESS
than they had debitted, possibly due
to a change in exchange rates.
I said, fine (about the book's con-
dition), send one with a bent cover.
Affiliate merchant says, fine, deal
with us (directly) & we can send it
by additional shipping means.
I do that (& pay using PayPal),
since I don't know these people
from Moses.
Today, I see 2 different amounts
(debit greater than credit, by
Amazon) on my credit card state-
ment (on-line).
We need a single currency for
Internet transactions -or-
a better way to refund $'s,
in such situations.
i cancelled the card i used to sign up with in november. last month i remembered that i had to resubscribe, and bought a renewal at bestbuy. when i went to the xbox dashboard i saw that i had till nov 2004 remaining. never got a bill, returned the renewal.
Didn't take too long for the microsoft bashing to appear, get over it you wanker. Another one of these twits who hasn't a clue what he's talking about. Tit.
I had a similar problem. I wasn't able to find any settings to stop the xbox live auto-renewal but realized my credit card would expire before then. I did still receive a letter saying I owed $50 in renewal charges.
The letter asked that I fix the problem with my credit card or:
1. call an 800 number
* turns out to be an MSN support number.
2. or go to www.xbox.com/support
* redirects to a page with a list of games.
I was considering trying xbox live again some day, but after waiting on hold and trying the website and transferring and waiting on hold again and listening to their elevator music breakup over my cellphone continuously, it's enough to never want to touch it again.
You never bought a computer?
In the US, charges to your credit card are protected up to 90 days from the date of the charge. If you didn't use the service and did not request renewal, you can dispute the charge with your bank all the way up to that 90th day.
+ ~$100 (your time and effort coming to court)
Do you not watch The People's Court? The judge will toss that part of your suit in the round file. Well... possibly depending on your locality, anyway.
Well, the fact that you know how long your original subscription was for, and that you were warned about the autorenewal and the refund policy, will probably screw you over. But the part about being re-notified via e-mail is bogus, because e-mail has no verifiable paper trail (snail mail postmark will probably get you/them through small claims court, though).
Just shut up. The contract doesn't require you to give them the OK; if he didn't want to pay, how should have read the TOS carefully, known they would auto-renewed, and canceled his account after his Xbox broke.
I worked in a credit card company for about 3 years. Tell them you've explained the situation to the merchant and they won't fix it, and that you want to dispute it. That should be about all it takes.
I can't help it - I'm a 19D.
These types of contracts piss me off to no end. The last time I had one was with Cellular One about 8 years ago. I called up to cancel my cell phone because I had switched to GTE Wireless and they informed me that there would be a $150 termination fee because I was in another 1 year contract. I told them mine had expired last month, but they had conveniently auto-renewed it for another year because I didn't inform them in writing 60 days ahead of time that my intent was to cancel. What bullshit. I refuse to do any business with a company anymore that doesn't fall into a month-to-month payment situation after your contract time period expires. I've never found another lame ass company that does this.. I guess until Microsoft now. Just another reason that I avoid XBoxes like the plague and stick with the PC (free multiplayer gaming).
That's not really fair. If you read the article carefully, they "renewed" his account on November 15th, but didn't actually apply the charge to his credit card until December 26th
Absolutely right. It seems that there *is* a grace period after automatic renewal during which a customer can cancel. Microsoft is claiming the renewal happened in November, the original poster claims it happened in December. Since he didn't get *charged* until December, I'd say he's got a case that December was the renewal date, and should be able to get it reversed.
Either way, I'd definitely get the credit card company involved.
Also, if his email account was in fact disabled, then Microsoft will have gotten a bounce indicating that. Certainly, we'd expect that they ignored it, but if Microsoft is asserting that e-mail is a legal, reliable way to inform people of these renewals, then I'd say the bounce is a legal, reliable way to prove that he didn't get the message, therefore he wasn't informed. Hell, it's not like they couldn't get his home address from the credit card company...
His complaint is that he forgot about the renewal and because of the way they billed him (a month after the renewal) that he had no time to cancel the payment.
Well he can forget complaining about the renewal. The drivel about the x-box not working is meaningless. They are not charging him for a game console. They are charging him for a subscription to network services. Wether or not he uses them is irrelavant.
So the only question remains is if it is okay for MS to bill him so late that he has no time to complain. Then again considering the date, feb. And when it took place. Dec. I think he is out of luck. Had he responded immidiatly to his credit card company he would have had a case since he could have contested the charge under the CC rules. Now no luck. Though. Move faster next time. And never ever do an automatic renewal for stuff that you know is not going to be used for years and years.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
However, I do want to say that considering this is a service, it would be nice if Microsoft would, at a minimum, check utilisation of their Live! system before issuing a subscription update. I mean, this is only courtesy.
Secondly, I am pretty damned sure that the email is not the only contact detail that Microsoft has on Live! users. A phone call, a little letter, even a message coming up on your XBox when you boot it (ok, not valid in this case, but then can be checked against to see if users have received it, it is online for god's sake) to let the user know. Just a single email is not sufficient for the service industry.
Karem
When all is said and done, nothing changes...
Your inability to view or receive email (e.g., due to your email filter settings) does not extend or relieve you of your obligation to pay any amounts owing to Microsoft.
Looks like your screwed. Sorry.
This kind of thing is being discussed on Ed Fosters Gripe Line.
So far the best solution is to get a credit card that offers one of thoses programs that generates a unique number(most major cards offer this) for each transaction. This way you can enter the number and then come the next charge it is an invalid number, and chances are the company will contact you.
Do they really have any legal authority to enforce anything?
I believe that the most they can do is withdraw a company's membership and have the situation recorded in its records.
Not exactly the strongest thing.
The surprise isn't how often we make bad choices; the surprise is how seldom they defeat us.
The whole concept of an "auto-renewing" system even being considered acceptable just really burns me up. There's no good reason for companies not being forced to re-request a payment once a year. Let the burden be on the company to ensure that the consumer still wants the product, rather than on the consumer to ensure that he doesn't get shafted.
This is why I wish everyone would use smartcards. While theoretically you could build an auto-payment authorization system with one, it isn't just a matter of "company A has your CC# and can charge you whatever they want to charge."
May we never see th
Besides tearing it up for being too stupid to use one, dispute the charge with your bank. Microsoft's attitude is EXACTLY why there are consumer protection measures on cards. Oh, and never use a debit card. There's basically no protection on those.
I have worked for a few sleazy firms that would do underhanded things like this to earn the quick buck with no thought on the long term effects or repeat business.
Essentially churn and burn.
Its interesting to see that a company as big as Microsoft that is losing money on MSN and Xbox Live resorting to these techniques, you figure they could at least be more creative on figuring out how to earn their dollars.
Very odd that I see this story! Originally, I was a beta tester for Xbox Live. My official subscription started in November of 2002. It was a year subscription for $50 - that was the deal given out then. Pay $50 for the starter kit and get a year with it. Around November of 2003, I noticed a $5.95 charge on my debt card. Oh, it was Microsoft.. it's November.. must be for Xbox Live... no problem (I OCCASIONALLY still used it). I was sort of miffed it auto billed, but hey.. whatever. $5.95, welcome to Corporate America. Then, my credit card expired (end of November) and I got a new one. Then a few weeks back, my buddy wanted to play PGR2 online. I noticed my XBox Live account wasn't active. I hadn't used it in a while (since November!). So I use the Xbox Live dashboard and update my credit card information. I don't choose a new subscription or anything like that. I updated my info, it took me back to the main XBox Live menu, then we loaded up PGR2. So what happend? Microsoft automatically billed me for a YEAR after I updated my card! They actually pro-rated it, taking into consideration the one month I had already paid them back in November (how thoughtful of them!), so I basically had a $50+ charge on my debt card. I wasn't cool with that, at all, especially since NO WHERE did it say when I was updating my info, that it was GOING TO BILL ME FOR A YEAR OF SERVICE, PLUS the fact that MS had already started to 'renew' my service back in Nov. for the $5.95 monthly charge - what I WANTED to pay for my subscription. So I called Microsoft early last week. Got bounced around three times. Finally spoke with a guy who told me if I go into the dashboard and change the subscription type to monthly, it will automatically refund my card and prorate it. I was very skeptical (should have known better), but I agree'd to try it and call back in a few days if it didn't work (my bank provides near real-time online banking so I can track things very closely). Needless to say, three days later, still nothing had changed. So I called MS back. Only got bounced around twice this time. The guy on the phone PROMISED that I would get a call from a Supervisor within the next "couple days" and we would "fix" this issue. I just wanted my subscription set up as monthly and a refund on their yearly charge. So it's been a WEEK now, and guess what? No call back. I gave them my cell # too, which I ALWAYS have with me so I know I didn't miss their call. I am getting ready to call them back today... and probably cancel my XBL account all together. I've been very nice this entire time. If they don't refund my card, I will go straight to my bank and dispute it.
Cleary you have no concept or experience of working with drywall.
For starters, I don't think I'd ever cut sheetrock with a sawzall. what a mess. If sheetrock is cut, they use a rotary saw, a common brand being rotozip.
Sheetrock can be scored with a knife and then snapped, but good luck actually cutting through it with a knife.
I would agree except the guy had 60 days to dispute the charges with Microsoft and did not know about them until over a month after he was charged. Yes, he was notified by email, but email is not a reliable delivery system for billing. Messages can too easily get lost amidst spam and changing email addresses.
In that sense, getting the renewal message by email is as bad as canceling gym membership by snail mail, as the previous poster mentioned. It sounds like the guy made a good effort to dispute the charges with Microsoft within 60 days and that Microsoft is being at best underhanded and at worst immoral or fraudulent.
"By giving us your credit card number right now, you agree that we can charge you, once per year, until we hear otherwise. If you don't agree, don't give us your fucking credit card number."
This ain't illegal. This is common practice.
Vintage computer games and RPG books available. Email me if you're interested.
Thanks for that utterly pointless post which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. ::sigh::
have a nice day.
The underhanded thing is charging him past the possible refund date. I don't understand why you people are defending this. Even if you reviewed your CC statement every day and called the minute the charge was posted, you'd still be too late. They guy was careless maybe, but stupid is just being rude. How often does the average slashdotter check their statements?
Correct, he agreed to the TOS. Corrent, he is in the wrong but that charging proceedure, designed to screw over people who 'forgot' to cancel immediately out of another months service, is underhanded. Not illegal... no legal recourse possible... just plain mean.
On another note, have any of you people read what you agreed to in your XBox/PS2/Windows/Garage Door Opener EULA? The EULAs/TOS themselves are underhanded... not illegal (err, maybe) but mean. This is just a guy who got slightly screwed by a rude company and is trying to get his money back.
LilMikey.com... I'll stop doing it when you sto
There are directions on how to cancel your account on the live website. Simply calling the number would have taken care of it. It's not like you didn't know you signed up for it in the first place... Cancel Instructions Online
There's nothing you can do other than just learn your lesson about "online" payments. You gave your credit card number to a company who will automatically charge you annually. Unfortunately, it's mostly up to you to remember that, not the company who's services you were buying. I played Dark Age of Camelot during the free month trial and forgot ever even putting in my credit card information. A year later I finally realize that I'm still being charged a monthly fee for something I didn't even have installed on my computer for a year. I fought with them and all I got was the final month taken off my bill. If you really want a hard lesson in this (and hopefully other people will back me on this), but subscribe to a porn site. It will only take one time for you to sign up for a $4 trial, forget to cancel and get charged 50 bucks out of nowhere. Yeah, automatic charges can be and seem shady at times, but the moral of the story is it in the end, it really is all up to the user to be responsible for keeping up with the scedules.
I almost had this happen to me with Register.com. I got an e-mail from them stating that my old domain was about to be reregistered for me, and billed to my credit card. This is a domain name that hasn't been used in over a year. When I got the e-mail, I was notified that I had "three days to log in to their site and turn off automatic renewal." Fortunately I caught it in time, but it sounds like the same type of deal to me.
Apparently once you buy something on a credit card you now have to "opt out" from future purchases? I can't wait until a car dealer shows up at my house with a new car because I didn't opt out of buying a new one each year when I bought my last one.
I haven't used Xbox Live since I was a Beta Tester. Apparently I was auto renewed last year and didn't notice it. They ticked my credit card again this year and fortunately I noticed it, called them and they took it off within a week (not last year's though). I don't think there is much you can do other than hounding them a bit more.
Contract, schmontract. You're buying a service. If you haven't used the service for months and they automatically charge you a renewal, it's reasonable that they should refund you if you protest the charges. Of course they don't want to. But they're taking money from you for a service you're not receiving.
If all of these pages of legalese companies threw at their customers were binding, then you'd just see more and more abuses, and before long you'd need to take along your attorney to buy a pack of gum.
As a counter-post, my XBOX Live service was due to be up at the end of Feb. I received my email warning last week. That's pretty early. I have a feeling the story poster might be fibbing and we have a whole thread who bought into it. Again. It contained instructions for how to cancel, how to renew, how to change my billing, all of it. Right there. Why did I get this email? Thats a complex question...
#1 We don't get spam at here at work. We just don't.
#2 The only commercial emails I get are ones that I want and specifically sign up to receive.
#3 Because of #1 and #2 when I want notices like this I send them my real email address that is open all day.
This is called being a smart consumer. I know businesses want my money. I decide if I want to enter into a transaction with them. I make sure I fully understand what I sign up for before I go in. So far Live has been sweet so I renewed. (Im #3 in Rampage and #7 in Paperboy on Live right now too, didnt want to lose that either).
Basically, I'm having trouble feeling the pity here. Did you not even read the message when you signed up that you would be automatically renewed if you didn't cancel? What about the part that let you choose the future billing method? Those were two seperate chances to get it into your head what was about to happen.
You know what? F it, here is the text of the email they send...
Immediate action required! Please read this entire notice carefully.
Dear Customer,
Your subscription to XBOX Live is scheduled to be automatically renewed to Xbox Live Service (12 mths, US) on Monday, March 01, 2004. Here is a description of the service:
We're glad that you've chosen to challenge your friends in the ultimate high-speed gaming arena, with access to downloads, tournaments, and exclusive features like your unique Gamertag and Friends List across every game. Your Starter Kit pre-paid yearly subscription to Xbox Live(TM) covers 12 months of Xbox Live(TM) service. Unless you cancel your subscription before the end of the 12 months, your subscription will automatically renew to a yearly subscription, and you will be billed $49.99 per year plus applicable taxes until you cancel it. If you need to cancel your subscription for any reason, please see www.xbox.com/live/accounts.
Please take this opportunity to confirm that your account and payment information is up to date. To view and update your account and payment information or to contact Microsoft Customer Support, go to https://billing.microsoft.com. If you are an XboxTM Live subscriber please go to the Xbox Dashboard, select Xbox Live, Account Management, and update your billing information.
If you wish to cancel this renewal, you must do so before the renewal date shown above. To cancel, go to https://billing.microsoft.com, click Get help with billing, and then click Cancellation Information.
Thank you for using Microsoft Online Services!
Microsoft Customer Support
Ouch, that sure is confusing. How is anyone to know what to do? Note the 49.99 per year rate is the billing plan I have set on the XBOX. If I wasn't sure how much longer I wanted the service I could have set it per month also. Those evil bastards. As for the 45 days, if they charged me on 3/1 as they say, it would show up on my March bill which would arrive about 4/5. So thats a little over 30 days but not quite 45. Nothing to see here folks, lets close this story and move along.
If you start up your Xbox, go into Xbox Live and then Account Management, you can select the option to OFF for auto-renewal.
I did that and my account wasnt renewed when my yearly subscription was over. Maybe you should have checked the options before bitching about it on Slashdot? The ignorance of you people...
I recently refunded my Annual renewal. And I was reading on the XBox support page, their calculation for determining your refund level. You can refund any remaining portion of your Annual subscription. At any time. It's simply a prorated refund. The easiest thing to do is call 1-800-4MY-XBOX (North America) and get them to process the remainder back to your card.
A friend of mine works for the outsourced company Microsoft uses for handling calls and bill related issues. I talked to her about this very issue. I was an original beta tester for Live. My issue was that I set my renewal to Annual (because it's cheaper) and although they renewed me, the next time I went into my dash board it reverted me back to Monthly billing. Now, I'm good until November 2005 but I was annoyed by the fact that the system reverted to a different renewal type and that I am responsible for switching it to annual every year. We talked also about the fact that they did not bill my credit card until December. She said that she was told internally that Microsoft had a problem with some of their servers (probably no big shock to anyone there) and that is why the billing was not done until later. You can think conspiracy all you want, but it's probably more true they had a bug in their software. The bottom line is that it is YOUR reponsibility to indicate, THROUGH YOUR XBOX that you do not want to be renewed etc. It's also your responsibility to keep your email address up to date. While I am no huge MS fan, this was ALL in the agreement you signed up for .... so really, they have done nothing wrong.
I am actually surprised they told you that you can get a refund with the whole 60 day thing ... they are actually not obligated to give you a refund at all after you are automatically renewed.
Bottom line .... read your agreements and if you don't like them, don't use the service.
My credit card company, MBNA, has a system where you can generate a temporary credit card number, and assign a limit and expiration date to it. I try and use it for any "auto-renewing" system. So if I find a service I want to use for say $20 a year, I'll generate a CC# with a $20 limit, and an expiration date of next week. Then, a year later I have to manually renew with a new valid CC#, or they don't get any more of my money. Check if your credit card company has something like this.
There are probably other steps that you can take, but start with disputing the charge through your credit card company. I have done this myself: I filled out a form explaining the situation and presenting my receipts (you don't have a physical receipt, unfortunately), and then let the credit card company take it from there. Make sure that when you dispute the charge that you do not have to pay it until the situation is resolved. If you pay up front, the chances of getting your money back are a lot less than if you just keep your money straight off. The benefit of taking this route is that the problem becomes the credit card company's to solve, not yours.
Of course, my situation was a little different: I was clearly overcharged for a bus ticket. Your situation isn't quite as clear cut, because Microsoft was authorized to keep charging your credit card, and the terms of service for XBox Live probably lay the onus on you to cancel at the right time to avoid charges. But if you can make this your credit card company's problem, so much the better for you.
Yes, it is your responsibility. Did you read the Terms and Agreements or did you just accept them without reading them? Obviously you just accepted them without reading it, because it clearly states that refunds are not offered just because you're not using your Xbox and you were not smart enough to cancel your subscription. It is also your responsibility to keep your billing and contact information current.
How the hell was this posted? Seriously.
I would venture 5: 98, ME, 2K, XP, 2K3. Plus the office versions. I applaud all pirates who refuse to give money to microsoft.
From MS' point of view you've had your "new" account for nearly 3 months now. That's 1/4 of the duration of the billing period. For all they know you've been playing the hell out of xbox live in the last 3 months.
ALthough i feel sorry for your situation, there certainly isnt a clause in their contract that says "XBox Live, buy 12 months get 3 months free".
At the end of the day you've had access to their service for 3 months, and although i'd support the refund pro-rata, you can't possibly justify being refunded for the time you've already had access (whether you used it or not is hardly their fault).
I refuse to have a sig... dammit!
Win- 3.11, 95, 98, 2k.
Office - 95, 97, 98, 2k.
Notice no XP?.... I've changed =P
Thanks for the heads up! I just called and cancelled myself. The great thing was I didn't have any money in that account so they were unsuccessful trying to take money out!
THIS ECONOMIC DOWNTURN IS GREAT!
http://cincyboys.blogspot.com/ Everything Cincinnati. Including the word 'Finnih'
Yes, and NO. I signed up for the X-BOX live beta, and they tried to do the same thing to me. After the beta period I never went on x-box live again, however I got the same e-mail from them. What is interesting abut the e-mail is that it does not give you any information on how to stop the charge. It just says we are gonna charge you have a nice day.
Fortunatly for me I lost my credit card earlier in the year and had the umber changed. Now I get a Letter in the mail from M$ saying there is a problem with my card and they give me a number to call to straighten it all out. I agree with the original poster that they are sneaky about the charges. I am sure they are hoping you forget all of it by next year so they can do it again.
I thought I would mention to all you who keep going on and on about microsoft vs linux and the many rules of credit card charge backs. The issue here is the billing company stated that there was a 60 day period to contest and get your money back but said we based that off your renewal date. Then they go on to say we just decided to bill you after that 60 days has expired. Well the thing is in the US there are laws that state when you are given a time period to opt out of a monatary contract and recieve a refund the clock starts when you are billed. The laws were passed to stop this kind of fraud. This is not a MS vs linux argument its a simple case of fraud probly caused by some phone monkeys that dont realize that their script is wrong. Just escalate along the chain of command until you get someone who realizes this is illegal or if nobody wants to think then just simply do a charge back the credit card companies handles cases like this all the time and will credit you reasonably quick.
Are credit cards available to people who haven't yet been able to find any sort of employment on whose wages they can subsist?
Over the summer I was on a business trip and I had oredred some Papa John's Pizza, for delivery. I kept my receipts and when the credit card bill came a month later ( and I was home) Papa John's had overcharged me like 3 bucks. I called it in and the next month the WHOLE charge was credited back to my account. I sent no letter or anything written. Just the call.
On a side note, I didn't want the whole charge refunded, I just wanted to be charged what I was fair.
I hope you don't enter your credit card number in those porn sites that "verify your age".
Okay, stupid question time: When you signed up for the XBox live service did they ASK you if you wanted to renew the charge? Or did the ToS say, buried so that you have to scroll down 15 pages "...Oh! And by the way, we are going to keep on charging you for our service until you tell us to stop taking your money."
Either way, it's not fraud per se (especially for the former). But in the case of the latter, it's certainly not a business practice that should be encouraged by knowledgable consumers. But there will never be enough of those lot to change the way M$ will do business. Caveat Emptor indeed!
Quod scripsi, scripsi.