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Jet-powered Nausicaa Glider Project
SuperElectric writes "As reported on slashdot.jp, Opensky is a project led by media artist Kazuhiko Hachiya to implement a working, jet-powered version of Moewe, the vehicle (pic) that the heroine rides on in "Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind". They've successfully test-flown (.mov, 8.6MB) a 1/2 scale model, and are moving into phase 2, which includes interviewing for test pilots (women only!). Can anybody knowledgeable in experimental aeronautics speculate on how doable this is? While it's not designed for general production (riders must be less than 50 kg/120 lbs), this would certainly beat Segway any day!"
And Nausicaa wears no underwear. Not that I was looking or anything...
Don't pay any attention to the stacks of Sailor Moon and tentacle porn DVDs under my bed!
I have been pwned because my
Cool when can I have one , and does it play mp3's ?
i have no sig
I'd bet the plane turns out the same way: extra crispy :)
got sig?
Well, off to join my buddy Wile E. Coyote, walking off cliffs and holding up little signs and waving bye-bye before I fall and that sort of thing.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
So Ya, Post a 8.6MB Movie file on the front page of /. and see what happens...
GOOD JOB!!
Totoro died, I have no reason to live anymore.
WTF.. how long has this been around?
If I could lose 10 lbs. do you think they'd let a guy be a test pilot? 6'2" 130 lbs... Anyway, regardless of how "doable" this is, doesn't it seem like a potentially dangerous means of transportation. I mean, I could understand people who already hang glide wanting one, but would you really feel safe flying this around a busy city? Granted, even if you don't feel safe, you'd look bad ass.
Why? Those people who can use this gilder are either: naturally small and/or fairly in shape. The Segway, however, has no such restrictions, and allows anyone to go fast without effort.
In shorter: wider (figuratively) audience == good.
EVERYDAY IS CATURDAY
This is taking "cosplay" to a whole new level. Now with real working props!
"Backups are for wimps. Real men upload their data to an FTP site and have everyone else mirror it." -- Linus Torvalds
Yes, but now to the real question: can they make the Batplane?
In the movie, she's able to carry it with one hand.
Is that possible with the model too, what kinds of materials did they use?
Will they start breeding octopi with a predilection for rape?
which includes interviewing for test pilots (women only!)
Actually, I remember the FAQ saying that women are preferable, weight and all :) Though I'm not that proficient in Japanese, and babelfish spits out mostly nonsense, so might have missed something. Don't forget, Nausicaa wasn't the only one able to fly such a glider well...
P.S. Please stop with those underwear jokes! See the movie(and watch what people are wearing), RTFF at nausicaa.net and keep in mind the messed up colours, too.(OT: read the manga tooThis will be needed soon:
Google Cache
Surf responsibly. Don't slashdot.
.
The simple fact that they've flown a 1/2 scale model indicates they have the aerodynamic controlls down well enough to get it into the air. From just looking at the model, it seems like it would be inherently unstable and require some respectably fast computer mediation of the controls.
Would _I_ fly it? (assuming I was the size of an "Anime babe") I would have to say "Maybe." If it had a recovery chute, it would probably be safe enough - and a real hoot to fly.
Though laying on TOP of a running jet engine doesn't seem like fun. Worse than piloting an old style racing sidehack...
Never attribute to malice what can as easily be the result of incompetence...
They've successfully test-flown a 1/2 scale model, and are moving into phase 2, which includes interviewing for test pilots (women only!). Can anybody speculate on how doable this is?
Well, all they really need to do now is find a midget to fly the thing and its done!
You can't take the sky from me...
We're stabbing Picard in the heart, again?
Right...
These already exist. They're called jet airplanes. That's what you get when you take a glider and put an engine on it.
Glider => not powered.
You could also start with a small trainer type jet and remove the canopy I suppose...
(riders must be less than 50 kg/120 lbs) Sooo, this excludes like 95% of all americans.....
I'm curious about the degree of comfort when landing this thing. The undercarriage looks awfully small and your feet would most probably hit the ground before you go down to a decent speed. I'd hate to have to jump off in mid-air and perform a bad-ass roll everytime I have to go somewhere! (While also destroying my mean of transportation in a spectacular crash.) (These people might have played BF1942 before and realized that's how everyone land in that game, so it must be the best way to do it...)
This just in:
Scientists at an unknown and undisclosed location are researching into how to create giant bugs that clean up pollution. Plans have been made for a test run of these bugs in New Jersey. Details at 10!
A lot of technology stems from ideas and designs in science-fiction. Always has always will probably. Submarine, Fax machine, just about everything on my desk.
So, like, yeah. It is only a cartoon, but then some guy went out and built technology from that cartoon, so now it's sitting right there on a football feild. Neat.
Disclaimers: 1] I've never seen the cartoon in question, and I'm not going to rush out to grab a copy... for reasons that are my own, and Maddox's. 2] I like anime, just not every single damn thing penned. Flying schoolgirls? Creepy. I'll stick with the giant robots kthx.
-- The unsig...
Nausicaa? Is that like the hip name for vomit now-a-days?
Sound the Alarm! We have an geek imposter in our midst!
That looks like pure madness. I can't decide if this is a form of balancing out the the historical discrimination agaist woman as pilots, or some sort of misogyny; Either its, "Here miss, you get to ride the most bad-ass ride ever" or its, "So you want to be a pilot do you? Well have a ride on this, baby... and have a nice flight!".
Anime is one thing, but bringing this idea to life as a jet powered aircraft which could potentially take the life of the person piloting it in some, not too pleasant ways is yet another.
GJC
Gregory Casamento
## Chief Maintainer for GNUstep
Can anybody knowledgeable in experimental aeronautics speculate on how doable this is?
IANAAE (I am not an aeronautical engineer), but I am willing to speculate that it is not doable with legos. Not even with Mindstorms.
...deathtrap?
Last time I checked, at the best of times, jet engines ain't quite.
It looks more like a cross between Nausicaa's glider and an early MiG jet fighter. The only thing that makes it Mehve-like is the "superstructure" and the intake port, but the wings are all wrong.
Don't mind me, I'm just being pedantic. =)
(And yes, "authenticity" is being sacrificed for functionality. I get it. Really.)
I'm only wearing black until they come out with something darker.
Studio Ghibli sues Open Sky for violation in Intelectual Propriety.
Seriusly, have it been done before? i mean, a project meant only for a movie/animation become real?
Watching the video, I was about to comment that shouldn't they consider including a dummy pilot in their half-sized flight model?
Then I saw the end of the film.
THAT THING'S FREAKING HUGE!
Seriously, there *is* a dummy pilot on their test model, but she's about the size of a 12-inch Star Wars doll. What's that going to put the full-sized mehve at, like a thirty-foot wingspan?!
It's waycool work and all, I don't deny that, but Nausicaa's mehve was a personal aircraft she could drag about tossed over her shoulder, and it was mostly steered by shifting her body weight, non unlike a hangglider. The big difference was that its jet propulsion gave it enough speed that it didn't need to be so large as a hangglider in order to generate sufficient lift.
That's what made it so amazing, and that's what made too fantastic to replicate in real life. These designers' trick? Make the thing so UNGODLY HUGE that the pilot has a minimal impact upon its aerodynamics and center of gravity.
So, waycool that they built it and all, but not nearly as cool as the tiny personal aircraft in the original manga.
I half expected the dog in the video to jump up and grab it like a big frisbee.
Baka Inu!
WFM.
I use a unicode font, which can actually display japanese characters, including hirigana, katakana and kanji.
.
Ask me about repetitive DNA
this is so cool. i didn't realize there were jet engines availible that were so small. but it would look as if the saftey to this might be a hard liability.
i would like to see a biger version that i cold play with. maybe even adapt a jet engine to a glider or something. it is nice to see people are still doing things just to see if it can be done.
I hope the guy who invented this glider doesn't use performance-enhancers, go insane, and start blowing up New York while wearing a Green Goblin costume.
I am officially gone from
I've been wondering how big a wingspan would be required to support a person while flying wing-in-ground effect, gliding downhill.
Or something like that.
A kind of very low altitude glider but I'm thinking it would only need a short wingspan?
No engine.
(The thing in the article seems to be described variously as a glider and as having a jet engine. Am I missing something here?)
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
No, no, it's just that the characters that they intended to use look Wingding-y.
It's fucking crazy man. How do they read?
Until Slashdot fixes the funny modifier, use insightful or interesting. The poster knows your intentions.
It doesn't look much worse than riding a fast motorcycle. Maybe they'd need to add a small windshield for the pilot if the nose didn't separate enough of the airstream, and flying inverted might be hard work, but that's all part of the fun.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
Can anyone say faceplant!!!
How to get yours:
1. Go to slashdot.jp.
2. On the right side there is the login form. There are two links at the bottom of it. The first is for a new user. Click on it.
3. You will get a form with two inputs. In the first put your desired username. In the second put a working email address. Click on the submit button.
4. You will recieve an email with two web addresses. Follow the first one. It is supposed to take you to change password, but it took me to the regular home page.
5. On the left of the home page you'll see your nickname. Click on it.
6. The last link on the bar across the top of the user page is change password. Click on it.
7. There are two input boxes. Enter your new password in both of them. Click the button. You're done - your very own slashdot(.jp) 5 digit user ID!
Lets see, that's no more Dr. Pepper, no more Coffee, no more pizza, no more beer[!!!!!!!!!!!!!]...
My God, this is the spawn of Satan!!!!!!!!!
It must burn!!!!!
I fly RC aircraft and don't see anything remarkable about this? It's a flying wing. Whoopee. I got one sitting in my office.
And why the weight restriction - just get a bigger engine? Duh.
I had a go of the first prototype, but it made me nauseous
score: -1 pun
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
Wow! Finally have a real reason to loose weight. Look out Atkins fans I'm winging your way.
That Slashdot.jp site is cool.. all of the articles are ?????????????
I didn't know suicide was still a popular thing to do in Japan. The aircraft in the photo looks spectacularly unstable.
Based on the sound from the video, this craft is clearly using a Class-I jet engine. These were phased out of use by all but older military craft (which were grandfathered in) due to excessive noise.
I have something in common with Stephen Hawking...
"Can anybody knowledgeable in experimental aeronautics speculate on how doable this is?"
IANAAE (I-am-not-an-aeronatical-engineer, yes folks, a new acronym is born) but I think this thing is pretty dang doable.
Which illustrates the point...why would you consult slashdot for aeronautical advice?
"There is no spoon." - The Matrix
Carefully!
Didn't someone already fly over the english channel with a backpack that had wings?? Would seem easyer to just take that and adapt an engine...
The darkness... controls the music. The music... controls the soul.
Ah crap, you've perked my interest! Off I go to the vid store...
-- The unsig...
Is this the only time we can slashdot Slashdot?!
How about if the other Slashdot slashdot this slashdot?!
Let the slashdotting slashdot slashdotters slashdot slashdot!
That flying wing sure isn't going to. Just the pendulum instability from the offset between CG and CL (that's center of gravity and center of lift for you 'dotters who never study anything but web engines and FPS technique) is going to drive you bats, and each change in thrust or drag is going to result in pitch moments. If designed badly, these can be fatal; if you have any doubts about this, you should look into the history of "interesting" airplanes like the original Mignet HM-14 Flying Flea.
There is a very real possibility of any such craft having serious PIOs (pilot-induced oscillations). Have them in a situation where you have no time to recover, and you can lose the airframe along with the crew.
While I am a firm believer in the value of Darwin Awards, I thnk that such a machine should not be flown with a human aboard. No matter how utterly fucking kewl all those anime fans would think it was, their refusal to recognize the distinction between cartoon physics and reality is not worth someone else's life, or undamaged brain, or functional spinal cord. It's appropriate that such a machine fly with only a dummy aboard; if it cracks up, you've got a hilarious photo-op rather than a tragedy.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
I saw one of these, I think they call them hand gliders, Honastly, what a stupid invention, some people have too much time and money for their level of sense.
VENI, VIDI, VICI, DIXI
100 lbs too heavy for the flying wing...
Not that I would really want to trust my life to something like this, though the video is definitely impressive (though loud - so I guess I would be trusting both life and hearing).
But I remember back in college, thinking that it would almost be feasible, and certainly as doable, to build a Zentradi battlepod, or even an Empire AT-AT. Maybe you couldn't get to work as fast, but it certainly would solve the problem of gridlock.
Dr. Wu
"I Know This SuperHighway"
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
While I'm not an engineer, I do have a bit of exposure to experimental aircraft, mostly in the form of power gliders, it is a pretty well known fact that a good portion of those that design new airfoils begin with model aircraft. Since I can't download the movie any longer, I would imagine that you would have severe issues with drag, heat, and simply trying to stay attached to the thing. Feasible? Yes. Practical? no. Fun? Hell yes!
Happy are times
when posts are not strange funny!
Score, it becomes two!
I am so moving to slashdot.jp ;)
No way! What you need is a flying surf board. Let's see you build one of those.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
News for Otaku, Stuff that matters
I flew hang gliders for years. This thing looks like a death trap. The center of mass is on top of the wing. It should be hanging underneath like a hang glider. Just look at bag fags (I mean parapente pilots) to see the extreme case of a wing stabilized by the mass hanging underneath. So to turn it, you oooch over a little bit to lean it, oooch too far and over she goes. Front, back left or right, it doesn't matter. Maybe it flies well upside down though. Guess they'll find out. Hope they have enough altitude when they do though. How do you land it? You can't flare it like a hang glider.
Sheesh.
I haven't seen anyone discuss the obvious possibility of this being a hoax (of course, I do browse at +4...). It looks way more like a model airplane that someone modified to look like it ran off a jet engine. The video looks a lot more like a normal prop plane with jet-engine sound effects pasted over it (okay, they made an effort to match doppler effect to the video). The plane's aerodynamic behavior clearly indicates low-speed propeller-powered flight, not jet powered flight.
Austin Meyer's X-plane is the perfect application to model this and try it. A number of companies use this software to model future crafts in order to fine tune them. Test pilots have also been known to use the software to brush up on the craft before construction is complete..
If you check out the main page, you'll see some pictures of a CarterCopter craft that was built/tested in X-plane and then put into production. Pretty neat stuff.
Anyhow, the Opensky people need only to model the craft in X-plane to get a feel for how feasible it is in real life.
Dude, this is Slashdot, nobody cares if it plays MP3s or not, they care whether or not it plays their Ogg Vorbis and FLAC files. If it doesn't support those two audio formats then it could fly faster-than-light and it still wouldn't be good enough for some of the people here.
"Accept that some days you are the pigeon, and some days you are the statue." - David Brent, Wernham Hogg
Hello! Isn't there an American engineer here who has a visa? Because I'm going to lose my job tomorrow, I quickly need a new job, but with a three-person team.
I'm only a second-semester Japanese student, so don't take that as an accurate translation.
(1) Females are strongly preferred.
(2) Weight limits of 35kg (77lbs) and 50kg (100lbs)
(3) Age limits of 20 and 35
(4) Two pictures: one which shows the face and another which shows the whole body.
Sounds more like an audition for a movie or something...
...as opposed to propeller-powered gliders, I guess. Sounds like something military intelligence cooked up....
I feel very sorry for this guy...
FYI: Patrick Stewart will be doing one of the voice of Yupa in the upcoming US release of Nausicaa.
From the German for "Seagull".
The opening sequence in Nasuicaa where she glides over the desert is really fantastic if you're into flying although you know in the back of your mind something like this would never be stable.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
There is nothing that says that this thing cannot fly ever. Sure, there are many calculations to perform, but the design isn't inherently unusable.
First of all, the main thing to notice is the lack of a tail. The main difficulty with the lack of a tail is that you need to balance both Cm (moment coefficient) and AOA (angle of attack) with the trailing edge of the same airfoil, namely the wings. While possible, it's not an easy thing to do. Essentially, for the vehicle to be stable, it needs to have a positive pitching moment at zero AOA (Cmo) and a negative derivative of the pitching moment with respect to AOA (Cmalpha). With a flying wing, the positive Cmo is not difficult to achieve, it's the negative Cmalpha that's difficult. Think of it this way, if the plane is disturbed such that the nose goes up (ie: updraft), the plane needs to have the nose tend down. Tails are really good for this, but without a tail, it's pretty difficult.
The simplest solution is to push back the aerodynamic center (AC) of the wing. Since most wing profiles have an AC at about 1/4 chord (25% from leading edge) for subsonic applications, a profile not used commonly must be used. Once again, this can be done... it's just not very common.
The winglets are a nice touch... helps decrease downwash and therefore overall lift. That, and I think winglets are sexy.
Yes, I'm an aeronautical geek. Deal.
IWARS.
People, in general, disappoint me. Politicians even more so.
It's possible to build very stable aircraft, but they have high drag, because the stabilizing aerodynamic forces are fighting each other. Engine power can overcome this, which is what they're doing. This isn't a glider.
If this thing is ever flown successfully by a human, it's going to be an experienced test pilot who flies the thing. Someone who's flown very unstable aircraft. It's not going to be steered by leaning; it will need a full set of control surfaces. And they'll have to figure out some way to attach the pilot to the craft.
My interpretation was that this guy is an American engineer who is desperate enougth to search for a job in Japan and looking for somebody who can inform him as to how easy it is to get a visa in this country, but who knows... I just wish him good luck.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
That's unbelievable! Is that the real audio? A JET ENGINE??
I'm almost more inclined to believe it's all a CG put-on.
"A great democracy must be progressive or it will soon cease to be a great democracy." --Theodore Roosevelt
That was falling with style.
Seriously, the wings gave him some forward momentum but he was dropping like a rock with wings all the way.
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Assuming that the person on top of the craft would truly be the pilot and that the mass of the pilot is not insignificant to the overall mass of the plane - any control system used would have the very fun task of having to differentiate between forces exerted by the pilot's hands/body to remain balanced on the craft and the forceful inputs (ie lean left to turn left) required to control the direction of the craft.
Imagine holding on for dear life, getting a hand cramp, leaning over to distribute your weight to your other hand and the aircraft making an unintentional hairpin-turn/dive. WEEEEEE!!!!
That's the mental picture I get of the whole thing.
So what do you say about the stability of the original design
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
Here
If you don't want to repeat the past, stop living in it.
How do you read English words? They're fucking crazy! There are billions of permutations of those weird scriggly things you call letters! And English pronunciation is so irregular, you need to memorize a specific pronunciation for most of those permutations!
Japanese is not THAT difficult... Japan's literacy rate (in Japanese) is much higher than America's literacy rate in English.
Japanese has three writing systems-hiragana and katakana, which are phonetic alphabets just like the Roman alphabet we use (think of it like capital and lower case letters, some characters are similar and some are very different between the two). But unlike English and the Roman alphabet, each Japanese phonetic character has only one, very regular pronunciation.
Then there are kanji, or chinese characters, in which each glyph represents an idea or part of a meaning (but sometimes a character is only used for its sound, not its original meaning). The characters can be broken down into simpler parts called radicals, each of which contributes to either the meaning or the pronunciation of the character. There are thousands of characters, but most are comprised of only a hundred or so radicals.
when will the 200% scale model be out for us fatsos? Can you imagine me on this thing with my beer gut?
These things are being pursued more and more vigorously these days. *No* silly, not the Nausicaan aliens from the planet Nausicaa from Star Trek, they are too ugly...
I mean the rights to the name 'Nausicaa'. I wouldn't mind betting its copyright or trademark or some such rubbish.
From Star Trek Locations guide;
Nausicaa
(Nausicaan homeworld)
ENT "Fortunate Son"
In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
1. Its no longer a glider when its self-propelled
2. WTF.. do they expect you to HANG on or something? Otherwise whats the point, it wouldn't be like a hang glider AT ALL. It'd be a mini jet plane that you were strapped onto that would be immensely huge and it would suck to ride it.
3. ARRR the noooissseee!
4. The Japanese obviously have way too much money and time on their hands...
Um ... no
YOU FAIL IT
Yay! Another fancy way for rich people to die. Are there still any Kennedys left to die? And Ted doesn't count because he obviously exceeds the glider's weight limit.
The original sentence is neither gramatically correct nor his word choice appropriate, though. He still needs a lot of work to improve his Japanese.
Me so horny. Me love you loooooong time. Sucky sucky, 5 dolla!
that jus don't make any sense.
A. that "link:" search term you use is meaningless.
B. the search results include interlinking between the same domain name.
C. you're post is 100% unrelated to its parent.
D. but that doesn't matter anyway: your argument makes no sense what so ever.
A hangglider and paraglider have the bulk of the weight below the wing. This thing will have the pilot (i.e. most of the weight) above the wing.
You will have to pull some pretty hefty aerodynamic tricks to get the thing to be stable. Higher aspect ratio, wings tilted upwards and back. Things like that. Look at the cartoon picture and the movie to see that these guys implemented those tricks!
I expect this thing to be flying at speeds comparable to a hangglider: 30-60 km/h. (20-40 mph). Way slower than a motorcycle on the freeway.
About bugs in eyes: I fly paragliders (i.e. a bit slower), and never had a bug in my face. But I wear corrective glasses.
About arm strength: To be able to fly safely, the thing needs to be stable. So you should be able to fly hands-off. But ask any paraglider or hangglider pilot how he/she feels after a 3 hour flight. (Exhausted, but not reserved for olympic-sporter-level people). Distance records are set in 8 to 10 hour flights!
The same can be said for shoes or disabled's vehicles.
that more people could be able to ride it makes it much less cool.
Besides: this is a frigging small jet powered plane. How can you compare that to a overhyped disabled's scooter for the fat & lazy?
This space is intentionally staring blankly at you
With all due respect, you're wrong.
For your rapid downloading pleasure: http://extropy.demon.co.uk/moewe1_2test02.mov.torr ent
My first torrent. I hope this works.
Second, I'd like everybodies suggestions for other cool devices from anime you'd like to see created in real life.
Here's a couple I'd like.
An e-frame from Exosquad.
Obligatory Veritech Fighter.
A new keyboard setup, with hand enhancement like in Ghost in the Shell.
Kaneda's bike.
Make people fear you even if you're old with the Roujin Z setup.
A pokeball, so I can finally do something about that annoying dog next door.
Appleseed had the right idea.
You know you want capsules like in DBZ.
Um....I guess I want a Chii Persocon too.....
I'm done.
Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
color me unimpressed...
:-)
i've been flying Zagi flying wings for about 2 years now..
bfd.
this thing doesn't even look as big or as fast as the new dual engine Zagi XT, which basically is just a $250 70 mph crash just waiting to happen.
holy shit - those videos are crazy.. you have better be someplace where augering in at 90 mph is not a big deal... and you better have reaction times like a rattlesnake on a triple espresso.
guns kill people like spoons make Rosie O'Donnell fat.
Can you please tell me why we still see +5 soviet russia and "/.ers dont have girlfriends" comments in every story? Maybe the lameness filter should feature heuristics to find cliches and not allow posting unless you have original content.
http://www.boxtorrents.com/download.php/10076/Naus icaa%20of%20the%20Valley%20of%20the%20Wind.avi.tor rent.
Enjoy.
Read up on the Wright brothers some time. They were losing pilots (and planes) at an alarming rate.
A large number of the losses were caused by pilots (barnstormers) trying to show off. The Wrights and others were constantly trying to figure out how to prevent this before bad press killed aviation.
Now we have enough experience in aerodynamics and control theory to say something *is* dangerous, and you get in a huff about some guy's "attitude" for pointing out the dangers.
Dreams and experimentation belong in the lab, not in PR stunts. Tools can be dangerous. Sometimes reality hurts.
Please send them C.O.D. to the White House.
Do you also sell pizza?
-FL
Slashdot.jp begins at "Wind River System get BSDi" article.
It's 2001-April-5th...alomost three years ago.
Oliver M Boltzer (a.k.a "Pseudo German")is the founder of Slashdot.jp.
Other important date for Slashdot.jp; Beta Release date is 2001/05/05.
Official Release date is 2001/05/28
Slashdot.jp seems , compared to Slashdot.org, less technological and non-political.This article is genuine tech story...thanks to "anime" element,it manages to interests japanese "geeks".
You may not find slashdot.jp enjoyable if you like slashdot.org.
# Sorry,my English ability is very poor...
here
Someone build a fun new plane they have succesfully tested. Not some toy model but fully functional jet plane that can take of and land and is easily controlled by remote.
And what is the reaction? Oh it will never fly, it did fly. It is to unstable to control, they did control it and without a crash. Now most /. stories have a lot of uninformed opinions but usually there are at least a couple of people who happen to know what they are talking about. Where are the pilots today?
The thing does fly, wether it is safe with a human on top remains to be seen. But the aircraft without the pilot is not that different from a simple flying wing design. Flying wings are hardly new.
What is different is the placement of the payload. In the movie she lies down flat on top of it and stands on it. Most flying wing designs put the payload inside the wing.
First of laying on top of it. While this would be the most logical thing to do (look at a commercial airliner and replace the tube of the fuselage with a human body same idea) and not disrupt the aircrafts stability you would be just a passenger since there are no traditional controls (some way to move the ailerons) and you would be unable to affect the aircraft much with a shifting in weight (yes hanggliders can but the pilot is farther away from the wing making a small movement have a bigger effect). Depending on the size of the final aircraft you would also have to be carfull not to let the feet dangle in front of the exhaust. A running jet engine is not something you want to be close too. (carrier crew member around?).
Standing on top of it would create a huge amount of drag but would be doable. It is hardly a new stunt to stand on the wings of an aircraft. Don't forget that even the scale model is hardly small. The final aircraft would be pretty normal in wingspan to existing single seaters. As for controlling the aircraft in this way. Unless the aircraft is naturally very close to stable but not to stable I think it would be hard. Airliners are designed to be stable and the aircraft needs constant pressure to change its flightpath from straight and level. An F16 is extremely unstable and can only be flown by a computer. The pilot only telling the computer what the desired attitude is.
Both are not exactly designs you would want to control by shifting weights around. All but hanggliders control flight by altering the shape of the wing (correct me if I am wrong). This might be the hardest thing to do. BUT NOT IMPOSSIBLE. If the aircraft can be made stable enough of its own then a mere shifting of weight should affects its flightpath. Only direct control you can't do without is a throttle.
Moving between lying down and standing up would also significantly alter the profile of the aircraft. Unless the final aircraft is so big that the change in drag is meaningless.
I am not a flight engineer but I do have an avid intrest in flight and am the kinda idiot that devours books and docu's on flight pioneers. I think the makers of this plane know a lot more about flight then me and the people that have reacted so far.
Cool stuff.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
You try to sound like you know what you are talking about, but you obviously don't. Flying wings can be every bit as stable as a conventional aircraft.
BTW: CL stands for Coeficient of Lift, what you meant was CP, Center of Pressure.
And WTF is pendulum instability? I've never heard the term by anyone in the aviation industry.
And yes I DO design aircraft for a living.
Seriously, I have designed and modeled several personal sized jet powered aircraft in X-Plane and they fly great! Given that there are now off-the-shelf model turbines up to 150 lb of thrust it is entirely feasable.
I've looked at the video, and the thing seemed pretty stable in the air. What might really influence the well flying of the thing is whether or not they pay attention to the variation of the Reynolds factor. If they size the model in a way that the Re of their wing grows along with it, then no big problem. But if the Re grows less than the size and scale, that's where you might run into trouble. I did a stduy of airfoils last year as an independent study in high school, and ended up with quite a bunch of stuff. Anyways, I'd say give it a go! You can always add a parachute to the pilot for the first couple of flights, and see how it will react in any given position... Good luck
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
People like that get to break the rules, walk on water, etc.
Could the thing fly? Would it have been stable?
Maybe not for you or me, but Nausicaa was part magical. Anyway, this project is a fan-driven thing. People make cool-looking light sabers which don't work very well either. People griping about the petty details might, I think, be missing the point somewhat.
-FL
It seems to be an awefully
complicated way
for the engineers
to get a date.
"You have liberated me from thought."
I am NOT an aeronautical engineer, but several members of my family ARE. They ALL agree that this is feasible from a technical and practical standpoint, but ONLY with a fully trained and competant pilot. i.e. someone who is well versed in both the fields of aerodynamics, and is fell informed, prefferably first hand, of the idiosyncrasies of the airframe. The main problem I can see with this from a marketing point of view is the actual advantage of this over a private jet. It would probably use les fuel, and be priced lower, but would also have a reduced range, and would be uncomfortable in adverse weather conditions. That said, I would buy one if I had the money! (which is what it all boils down to isn't it?)
The design in the movie is wonderfully rounded and sculptured, it's not just a standard swept flying wing with lots of dihedral.
.5 * .0023 * Cl * A * V^2 where .0023 is the density of air, Cl is the coefficient of lift (1 would be an absolute maximum for a flying wing) A is the area of the wing in square feet, and V is the velocity in feet per second. If you do the math, if you want to take off and land at less than 50 mph, (and she does) then the wing has to be at least 30 ft long.
The lower aspect ratio of the real plane in the movie will give it a little more pitch stability, but the lack of dihedral or any verticle surface will require sophisticated active controls to provide yaw and roll stability. If I recall the movie (and it's been >20 years since I've seen it) she isn't even lying on the wing, right? She's sort of flying above it, held up by the wind. And, sadly, the wing is just way too small to support even her light weight. Flying wings have relatively low coefficients of lift, because they are constrained to have positive moment coefficients. The lift of a wing is (approximately)
While the flying scale model is impressive, it is so unlike the glorious design in the movie that it doesn't work for me. Sorry.
I believe that it is possible to build an accurate flying version of the wing. It will unfortunately require as a prerequisite large pressurized indoor Disneylands on the Moon.
Thad
I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
I wonder, is it easier to lose weight or make modifications to the hardware, for some of us?
There is a twin jet engined (RC model plane ducted fans) used on the smallest human flown ultralight the Cri-Cri. It can fly with one engine running 100MPH with both it tops at 150MPH.
10 points for whoever replies with the movie reference.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Engineers didn't design that thing, artists did.
though I would probably settle for Wing Zero
Which when turned around is "Zero Wing". Would you settle for a Zig?
The riders must be less than 50 kg/120 lbs? Good thing Jenny Craig Delivers -- I'll get started on losing those Lbs. I am such a twerp!
His comment of 2/20 is that he's looking for investment.. 20 million yen (around $200K) for phase 2 and double that to finish the entire project (phase 3). On the top page he does note he takes full responsibility for any accidents in the project which has no relationship to the movie etc. Also mentions on hearing that when applying for a grant you need to fill out about 1 mm of documents for every hundred dollar bill, that must mean for $100K you must need 1 meter??
But I would like to know 3 things.. .. And what about clothing and curving your body to produce more lift? Any [powered?] hangliders out there? Also considering there could be some kind of pressure sensors in the handles to see what the rider is doing. Just wondering..
1. Do the aerodynamics comments consider that in the movie it is ridden with the legs in the air, something like an inverted hanglider, but I expect stabilized by the thrust?
2. What kind of thrust would be needed to enable the Moewe (meh-veh.. MEV? in Japanese) wing to take off / leap into the air as quickly as in the film?
3. What kind of engine would be the lightest, most efficient thing that could do that? Wondering what this would weigh if built of carbon fiber.
Disclaimer: I am an aersopace engineering student.
The model they are building is significantly different from the craft from the anime series. The aerodynamic center of the aircraft seems to be more or less in the same location as the center of gravity, making the plane slightly statically unstable. Static instability is not a barrier to success, though, as the first Wright Flyer, the X-29, the F-18 and a number of other aircraft have been statically unstable. In order to fly it, there will need to be constant pilot input and it will have to have some way of generating a controlled pitching moment. The original craft pictured would simply flip over, stall and crash, because the only way to change it's pitching moment would be by shifting the pilots weight around all the time, which would be very difficult in an unstable aircraft. However, the model has swept wings. By putting elevators or elevons on the tips of the wing, making an elevator deflection changes the aerodynamic center of the wing, rather than simply the lift coefficient. Thus, you have a pitch control system, by changing the moment generated about the C.G. Also, since the aerodynamic center is near the c.g., by sitting carefully, the aircraft can become statically neutral in pitch and fly with much less pilot input.
Yaw stability.... well it is a flying wing... but they have really big wing tip stabilizers on the model. It is possible to fly an aircraft without a rudder, but it's harder. If they try flying simulated aircraft without a rudder, it will approximate what they will experience in flight and adequately prepare them for the challenge.
It's kind of like an inverted hang glider, but wouldn't the pilot herself become the tail of the plane? Certainly a persons size, weight and aerodynamic would affect all those calculations your mentioning. I admit I don't know anything about the topic.
Is there anything they could do to make it fly because of a person riding it instead of in spite of it?
- Hachiya is looking for a test pilot for the first version made this past year. Applications accepted up to March 15.
- The faq has another picture including something that looks more like an ordinary glider. To answer the question "What kind of project is this?" he writes, "The final goal of the 'Open Sky Project' is to produce a 'personal jet glider' that can be ridden by a single person (a girl up to 50kg)." Phase 2 which he is working on now includes consideration of ideas like those in the photo.
- He is being assisted in phase 2 by Aircraft OLYMPOS, looks like this guy (Mr. Shibe? Yobe? The name reads like "four doors"..heh) knows his planes.. and he says he thinks it is possible.
- The part about a girl being needed is basically a matter of image.. no reason can't be a guy. The point is to have someone as light and strong as possible, so 40kg plus or minus 5 kg, say 55kg max with full equipment. There is a training program for the pilot budgeted. And since he wouldn't put anyone on it without doing it himself first, he's in training now too. Sounds more ballsy and realistic than at first, no? I think we're back to "KEWL!"
- For phase 2 it will be called another name, not Moewe since if there did happen to be an accident Studio Ghibli (Nausicaa creators) would be inconvenienced. Also because when he looked it up it turns out that Mazda owns a trademark for a plane called Mehbeh. He wonders if they are actually thinking of building it?!?!
- Answering the question "Is this Open Source?" he says "Funny you should ask about that, the was originally developed as an Impac project but since it ended up not getting realized there I decided to do it by by myself. Even this phase I plan to make it open source to some degree, for example releasing diagrams and discussing problem points openly and so on. But as for completely open source hardware (?) I've given up on it. That is, when constructing the body someone should take responsibility for designing it, and when putting someone on it, obviously should take responsibility for that. And considering that kind of responsibility, I don't think it's possible to do that and try to get opinions about an under construction aircraft, or get advice on important parts of the project. However, I am looking for staff (link), so if anybody is interested they are welcome."
- Hey people this sounds like it is maybe real. And while he is an artist not an aeronautics engineer, he does have a good deal of clout and Nausicaa is a powerful image in Japan among the general public, in particular I think among engineers.
I'd like to mention the opinion of an older man who took me out for sushi tonight as I think it may be salient. We were talking about the way sushimaking is taught.. He said the difference between Japan and the U.S. is that Japan is a nation of craftsmen, and they don't teach just anyone what they know. In the U.S. everything is written in a manual, anyone (even someone who doesn't really *care*) can learn whatever is needed. In Japan the expert is not going to teach the young man the trade unless he has fire in his eyes.. Oh so you really *want* to know huh? And the student has to "steal" the information.
Well maybe this is a bit off and might have more to do with chefs than aircraft and open source, but I think it is safe to say at any rate whether this has anything to do with it or not, that a huge percentage of aircraft engineers in Japan have long dreamed of building something like Moewe, compared to their U.S. counterparts, and Hachiya does have a pretty strong way of grabbing people's attention with his designs. Anyway I'd like to hear if people think he is right and if open source aircraft is impossible. Seems it is possible but litigous..
By the way I just caught "BPS: Battle Programmer Shirashi" a (new?) Japanese cartoon. Whit
Actually, that was intentional: the aliens were named after the anime. There are other anime references in ST:TNG, such as to Dirty Pair.
I am a pilot. In a plane with a cockpit, it is important to have a known senter of balance. The plane performs quite differently with the COB rearward. A pilot for this device would be vulnerable to increaded stall and a number of other issues if they are only using their body weight to control the craft. Yes, a hang glider uses weight to move, but it has the advantage of moving at a slow speed. This craft, with a jet, will probably move in the 100mph range. A slight shift will create large changes in attitude that could be lethal. Another issue is the flying wing itself. There is a reason Northrop abandoned flying wings till they had the computer controls to compensate for human flying inadequacies. That's why it took so long to build the B-2. I believe this will be a very unstable craft, and I certainly wouldn't want to be the first to fly it. I also have a nagging feeling that the artists building it will likely look for a woman who has the "look" of their heroine more than the most qualified woman.
Add to that the fact that there will be few safety devices or protection for a pilot in the open airstream, and I would say the chance of crashing this on it's maiden flight is about 50/50.
"Curiosity killed the cat, but for a while I was a suspect."- Steven Wright
Nothing against any of the previous comments on flight stability. They all seem valid and important.
However, it's evident that this airframe actually flies under remote control! We have existential proof of stable takeoff, flight maneuvers, and landing. Granted, there may be huge holes in the stability space, but come on you guys, this is fun project. It delivers.
There are lots of people who've died by stalling an aircraft at low altitude, such as on approach to landing. If you've got enough altitude this is no problem, but down low you may run into the ground before you can get the airplane back under control. This is one reason why you do not do steep turns in the landing pattern.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
The plane itself is sweet, and with modern control systems would fly fine...with no rider. With the speed that this thing should operate at, the drag on a human, even a prone human and *especially* a moving human, would destabilize the craft. The moment that the human's extra drag creates may be too much to compensate for, no matter what is done aerodynamically or with the control system.
I may be proved wrong, but that's how I see it.
-working on PhD in Aerodynamics
I am *not* flying on a wikiplane.
- The faq has another picture including something that looks more like an ordinary glider. To answer the question "What kind of project is this?" he writes, "The final goal of the 'Open Sky Project' is to produce a 'personal jet glider' that can be ridden by a single person (a girl up to 50kg)." Phase 2 which he is working on now includes consideration of ideas like those in the photo.
They decided simply making a 1/1 version of Moewe1/2 was dangerous so M-01, the craft in phase 2, is completely redesigned.
- He is being assisted in phase 2 by Aircraft OLYMPOS, looks like this guy (Mr. Shibe? Yobe? The name reads like "four doors"..heh) knows his planes.. and he says he thinks it is possible.
That's "Mr. Shinohe" just like Hachinohe, Aomori.
Just the pendulum instability from the offset between CG and CL is going to drive you bats
But hey, if you just flip that damned thing upside down you almost have a semi-decent hangglider! You'd be flying it lying on your back though, good luck seeing the ground...
Seriously, a jet-powered hangglider would be infinitely cheaper, safer, and more fun to fly.
ObTroll for +5 informative: "Moeve" is German for "gull". Duh!
Be faithful to your obsessions. Identify them and be faithful to them, let them guide you like a sleepwalker. JG Ballard
Nobody here is against taking risks per se, but we are against taking stupid risks.
Things we are against:
- speeding through red lights
- placing people in dangerous situations without adequate safety precautions
- publicity stunts which risk human life
Things we are not against:
- experimental aircraft with real design goals and safety considerations
- medical tests which may lead to breakthroughs
- other dangerous stuff where the risks have been mitigated and the results look promising
Nobody's suggesting that Marie Curie (who handled radioactive elements with no significant shielding) deserves a Darwin award. While what she did was dangerous, the risks were not understood at her time.
Darwin awards are for people who do dangerous things for stupid reasons. The status of hero/saint/explorer is reserved for people who successfully achieve great things, regardless of how dangerous their achievement was.
I don't see any hypocrisy here. Just a poor understanding on your part.
Oh yeah, well I've got a 4 digit user ID (8276) over there. Nya!
My other first post is car post.
I got's to have me one of deez tings !
-- Exposing the hype of Gentoo zealots. Modded into the ground to suppress opinion.
..."Surasshu Dotto", not "Shirashudotsu"?
Never mind the instability and all... from the vid it seems to fly perfectly fine and doesnt need much in the way of take off speed. Maybe the star wars model was a joke? Can only hope so. Mehve looked to have a similar footprint to my own little euro-car ('bout the size of a Yugo or Echo, for my american colleagues) but "landscape" rather than "portrait", as well as being a lot flatter and seemingly made out of packing foam such was the apparent light weight. If they can at least try to replicate that density without making it much bigger...... some computer controlled elevons on the trailing edges (maybe it already has them)... score!
There's many people fly gliders and maybe one or two mehve-type jetwings in Nausicaa's valley, but it takes someone with a special talent to be allowed much past the initial try-out stage... such as superhuman balance and reactions? (just look at her fight in the film or the comic, she's halfway to being a bird anyway, just needs wings)
Still, this model is missing the coolest and most important feature of the fictional flying machine - the ability to take off and land near-vertically with some rocket thrusters (or re-directed jet output?) on the underside, which is why it only has ski-type runners on the underside (also useful as secondary handrails - so it CAN be used as a hang-glider, especially for literal running starts/landings) rather than wheels (also not good for desert or water landings!). Plus a flare-grenade launcher, a place to put your oversized shotgun, and an automatic glide-landing sequence if you fall off.
What can I say... still want one. This is one of the only things in the world that would make me consider a diet.
Thanks zioncat are you in Japan?
Matt
If you're talking about CG and CL, flying wing designs can be made to be longitudinally stable. Actually I remember that a long time ago, that's one of my exam question: what is the airfoil cross-section of a longitudinally stable flying wing. I flunked that question by the way. But anyway, it turns out that if you produce some negative camber (wing curvature) towards the rear, that section of the wing effectively acts like a tailplane that can trim the plane in terms of pitch. And I notice that the design has a significant sweep to the wing. That means that if you add a twist to the wing such that the camber is overall less (or even negative) compared to the rest of the wing, the outboard section of the wing becomes the "tailplane" for trim. Yaw control is more of a problem in a pure flying wing design since there's no vertical surface, though some brilliant engineer solved this problem by using split ailerons (ailerons "split" to become spoilers such that they increase drag on one side of the wing to control yaw). Besides, the model I saw do have vertical surfaces at the wing tips, probably placed there to increase the yaw control moment arm since the wing is swept back, and that is as far back as you can get on the plane.
Nevertheless, the plane will be challenging to fly manually. The moment arms for pitch and yaw control will be significantly less than that of a conventional plane (i.e. with fuselage). That's still not to say it's not possible. You can still achieve a positive static margin (i.e. stable) in a carefully designed flying wing. Hell, the original Wright Flyer that achieved the first powered flight has a slightly negative static margin. I trust these guys know what they're doing.
As for putting pilots on the line, well flying any experimental planes is dangerous, some more so than others. But there're always a steady supply of crazy pilots willing to fly impossible machines. From what I know, pilots in general tend to lean on the more reckless side. Worse comes to worst, they can always "cheat" by adding a fly-by-wire computer and let it take over the minute adjustments.