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Broadband Over Power Lines: Coming Soon?
Decaffeinated Jedi writes "With technology improving and costs droppings, News.com offers up an interesting report on renewed interest in delivering broadband Internet access via power lines (a technology known as BPL). Earlier this month, the Federal Communications Commission proposed a new set of rules for utility companies that might want to offer BPL services as a way to 'encourage broadband for the entire United States' -- particularly hard-to-reach rural areas. As the article notes, EarthLink has already started testing BPL service in using power lines leased in Wake County, North Carolina. Could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?"
It tramples over many frequencies used by FEMA and Ham Operators. Ick!
-- dieman - Scott Dier
Has there been any information released about the potential costs to the consumers for this service? I haven't heard anything other than Earthlink's $39.95/month (which isn't much cheaper than what I currently pay for cable). The only way cable and DSL will face any competition from BPL is if BPL is cheaper. Why pay for BPL if it's not cheaper or at least offers more bandwidth for the same price as cable or DSL?
The guitars sound good, now give me about 10db more on the cow bell.
This sounds great I can't see any problems with this... Oh wait yes I do
DJMD - The fourth man - Planetary
The only problem with this solution is that when the power goes out you are going to lose your internet access.
=)
E.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?"
I doubt it.
However, if it decreases the market share, then I hope that will mean good things for all of us, lower rates. And that would be a good thing.
Sent from your iPad.
"Could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?"
I sure as heck hope so...maybe then we'll see broabdand prices dip a bit here in the US.
Hopefully, This technology will allow you to choose your own provider, similar to the way DSL does. I like my cable speeds and am not *THAT* unhappy with the service, but it would be nice to be able to choose some of the providers that offer more advanced services, such as true static IPs, control over forward and reverse DNS, and allowing servers.
Don't Tread on Me
Powerlines were not designed to carry RF. It'll bleed all over the spectrum and disrupt radio hams, cell phones, cordless phones, tv remotes and yes all those lovely WiFi and Bluetooth devices.
And surprise surprise the FCC, the regulator, seems to have conveniently ignored these "inconveniences".
See the ARRL web site for more objections and to give your support to their objects.
Edward - Ham: M3EWK.
Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
I keep hearing about this, every few months on slashdot about how "Broadband over Powerlines" are "just around the corner" or trialing! But every time they get cancled due to intererance and practibillity concerns! I wish slashdot would stop posting about it until it is actually being sold in the mainstream!
Nero-burning ROM for Linux!
Seems like this would be a great thing. How often has your power gone out versus your cable/dsl line. Power companies are uber-dedicated to providing power to their customers 24/7. And when the power is out they are all over it right away... unlike the cable company.
Are you Corn Fed?
Man, how many slashdot articles can there be about this? It's worse than the "Mozilla browser almost done" articles that kept coming for almost three years.
Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
Self installation kit.... Take the black wire and white wire and stick this meter across the terminals. I wonder how many people will inadventently fry?
the vast majority of people who use broadband internet at home dont connect with a battery-powered laptop, so if the power and power-line-broadband-internet go out, so does the electrically powered home computer.
This rocks! Now I will be able to sue my ISP in addition to the power company for that pesky third nipple!!!
Vonnegut was right: Of all the words of mice and men, the saddest are, "It might have been."
I assume BPL will take off in areas where cable modem/dsl aren't yet available. This will get the ball rolling. In these areas when Cable and DSL finally get there they will have some difficulty knocking out the incumbent.
THEN- with some success/captial under its belt BPL will eventually start running specials and deals trying to under cut Cable/DSL in areas where those are already available.
In the future, I would want to not be isolated from my friends in the Space Station.
I can think of at least one advantage of BPL from the providers' POV. It would definitely discourage uncapping.
The problems that BPL causes are probably more serious than is good for a new technology. The problem of BPL causing a lot of interference with other services using a similar frequency spectrum have caused pretty much all major players who field-tested the technology in Germany to abandon it again. On the other hand, BPL technology is creeping into the airwaves through the backdoor anyway, as there are now more and more home-networking solutions using powerlines.
I have read that BPL has already been tested in other countries, with less than fantastic results. And while it would be able to help outlying areas, they could opt for satellite access, if they really wanted broadband. Also, would this put a strain on the already antiquated power infrastructure in America? But perhaps its implement would cause a slow infrastructure re-haul, as people would depend on the lines for more than just power now.
\\"You go hole now"
have got the maintenance of their lines down to a science. They've got all this slack time and it's not like the power lines are unduly taxed, stressed, in risk of imminent collapse. That's so ...2003.
saw it in a country fair lately in payerne switzerland :)
Some like it with bugs..... I don't!
.. is play Duke Nukem Forever on my Phantom gaming console. I've heard this same thing so many times I have lost hope - especially since anyone that I talked to at my local power provider said they either never heard of it or don't care.
Is it that time of the year already? Wow, I guess it as been awhile since our last BPL-to-the-masses announcement. Maybe this year it will dethrone DNF for the #1 vaporware spot.
Shit if I wasn't running off to work I would ramble on as I always do...
MoFscker
We have had Powerline Communications (PLC) in Switzerland since 2001 already.
Sorry, the link is in French or German only.
Now all those lonely cybergeeks will have to decide if they want to download p0rn or plug in the 'toys'. The inhumanity!
Failure is not an option. It comes bundled with your Microsoft product. -- Ferenc Mantfeld
- Who pays to install the infrastructure? If it's the rate-payers, this will be a non-starter.
- Who pays for the hardware at the customer end?
- Why does the FCC seem to ignore the frequency problems?
So, the proposal is to have mega-monopolies managing more infrastructure, delivering service that's not in their core area, and requiring huge infrastructre changes?Hmm. Why does this look bad? Especialy when the local power company has a horrible reputation for maintaining their existing power infrastructure. I think I'll pass on this one.
First networking over power lines, what next, power?
How does the BPL handle connectivity around the transformers? Either they are using an RF bypass, or they are using a fiber bypass. Then comes the issue of maintenance. The RF units should be easier and cheaper to maintain, but they have durability issues compared to fiber. On the other hand, fiber bypasses are more expensive to install and maintain, but once in place, they should be more durable than the RF counterparts.
Moreover, I *STILL* haven't seen specs for BPL which make it fiscally viable except for rural communities where cable/DSL/wireless have not yet penetrated.
Enron must be rolling over in its grave!
It's coming...
It's not...........
It's coming..............
It's not...............
It's coming........we think.........
No wait, nevermind - it's not...
Hey, when it's here - gimme a call!
So I can download that Duke Nukem Forever ISO. They should be coming out at about the same time, I think.
The city of Sault Ste. Marie in Ontario already has a functioning system as discussed in this article.
Another broadband over power lines story on slashdot.
Mod parent up!
Yeah, it does trample HAMs and other FEMA frequencies. It doesn't help that they don't shield the wires from RF, so basically if there's any transmission across it, it blasts anyone for miles. Pretty stupid if you ask me. Now if they bothered to shield the wiring (likely event), then it might be worthwhile to consider. Unfortunately, that would never happen. Not really a practical solution.
-- Friends don't let friends buy Nokia.
Hutchison Global Communications, a Hong Kong based telecommunications company and ISP, has been offering broadband internet access to Hong Kong residents over their power lines for over a year now.
At downstream bandwidth upwards of 1.5mbits (and infrastructure to cater to upgrades of up to 10mbits) and at a cost of less than US$18/month, the service has been quite successful thus far, and as a subscriber, I cannot recall a single outage due to problems with the power lines (and not trouble at their network centres or regularly scheduled maintenance operations).
Since BPL tramples on other RF applications, it suggests that one could sniff the packets. It looks like the adapters (like this one) do use encryption, but it is only 56-bit DES. Given that these connections are always-on, I wonder how long it would take to accumulate enough data to break the code. And if you know the email address of the victim, could one send a structured email that helps uncover the key?
Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
So say I put one of my UPS's on the line (such as a TrippLite w/ISOBAR, which are really great for line noise supression)...does that mean my signal gets filtered out? So I have to leave the line unsupressed, and everytime we have a lightning strike in the area (at least 3-4 times a year), I'm calling the electric company to cmoe replace another fried modem? Do I have to purchase a special ($$$$) supressor from the electric company that has a bandgap filter just for that frequency?
Seems as if there are too many variables once you are inside the house, nevermind the problems with Ham bands, Bluetooth, etc.
Chris Knight is my hero.
BPLs bad mmkay
--Good morning fellas; Hand me that thing; Boy, this work's hard; Guys, break's over.
Could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?
Sure. As long as it's not going to cost me $50+/mo and doesn't require a contract.
Now, if it comes out in my market and costs considerable less than RoadRunner, I'll switch.
That is, unless TXU (my electric provider) then becomes my ISP as well. Why would I switch from RR's shitty customer service to TXUs shitty customer service? Would a price drop be worth dealing with a whole new set of morons?
Cruising the internet on my TI-99/4A @ a whopping 300 baud!
I dont understand what the fuzz is about, around broadband over powerlines. It has been in use here in iceland for quite the while now, and my experience of it, is that its laggy (around 500 ms) and the speed is rather unstable, since its based on how many are using it at the moment. I admit its rather cool to connect your modem into a powersocket instead of a phonesocket but its not much more than that, here at least adsl 1,5 mbit is cheaper, and faster, the only thing power has over that is it uploads as fast as it downloads.
Except, well, people need *practice*. And equipment needs to be *purchased* and *maintained*. Would you buy the latest gaming PC (or Mac) (the investment is similar), only to find that you are allowed to use it, say, the first weekend of a leap year?
Oh, BTW, low-frequency signals easily traverse the globe. A localized blackout like August 2003 may still result in communications failure because of interference from the other end of the country (where there *is* power).
And let's not forget everyone *ELSE* in the HF bands - we've got military, aviation (HF is the only way to communicate long distances), marine, broadcast (SW especially), CB, RC, cordless phones, etc. who use it for its special properties. Sure we can all switch to satellite, but are you willing to shell out the increased costs for satellite equipment in everything you do (taxes, shipping costs, tickets, imported goods...)? (As if we need *another* reason for companies to jack prices up!)
OTOH, it does make spying on internet traffic easier - sniff passwords 3000 miles away! Or someone will find a way to do BPL wardriving (imagine that... hitching internet service from someone in the next state! Though, this would lead to more spam...) Damn I'm conflicted.
(Then there is the fact that HAM radio is a regulated service, and BPL is unregulated.)
Will it work with WiFi?
The venture set up a test in Manchester, England, but soon discovered a snag in its technology: Neighboring lampposts were picking up data signals and rebroadcasting them as radio waves.
Coming soon to a lamppost near you, pr0n.
http://hot-action.lamppostpr0n.elec/
DJMD - The fourth man - Planetary
And the people receiving your signal are... Hopefully not in an area with BPL?
costs droppings
I realized that power lines were associated with bird droppings, but now they are associated with costs droppings as well. Hmm... Just another thing to wash off the cars I guess.
-g
With all the ranting about HAM operators, why has no one asked the obvious question - what's the bandwidth going to typically be?
...an Uninteruptable Redundant Post Generator (URPS). Someone already posted your joke. You fail it.
Having the same problems for HAM operators, they tried to stop the BPL Test in Austria.
The ministry responsible for this stated that the HAM services in emergency cases are more important and stopped the testlicense.
Heres the Press Info (sorry, its a PDF) from OEVSV, the Austrian HAM assosiation.
So EarthLink is paying CmdrTaco this time?
As long as they get auto-modded to +5 for repeating the same stuff over and over, they will continue to repeat the same stuff over and over. This is the way of Slashdot.
Its easy for people who lives in areas where dsl or cable or something even better is available, that BPL is bad, it will interfere with ham and wifi stuff and whatnot.
Personally I can't say I will be too sad if my neighbour can't play with his ham radio anymore, if that means that I can ditch my modem (with the crappy lines out here, 28k8 max). Yay FCC, for once.
I'm a layman in the area, but if the interference is WAY too bad, can't they install some sort of noisereducing filters on the repeaters? Or will the actual lines emit just as much interference?
Link here for those interested.
Now all we need is for our national telco to roll out ADSL in a meaningful kinda way ... :-/
Alison
"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." - Albert Einstein
Okay, so you say you are valuable during emergency situations, but if the power was out, then there would be no interference with your signals. So you could still be used during emergencies.
So when the power is out we can talk... with whom??? All the other suckers were the power happens to be out?
Jeroen
Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
In some residential areas of Madrid (Spain) you can currently get a symetric (600 Kbps upload and download) internet access via power lines for 39 euros/month. Here they call this technology Power Line Communications (PLC) but I think it's the same as BPL.
I don't know how it works though, I use regular DSL access.
You can get more info here: http://www.neo.es (in spanish).
I've heard the costs will start at $20 a month for a promotional period and then rise to as much as $50.
I live in the one lucky city in Canada where the first BPL implementation will be installed.
I'll try to pass on any useful info to all slashdotters when it happens... should be this year I am told.
We *HAVE* a hobby, and it's amateur radio. Try to (legally) use a CB to talk to someone half way across the world, it's not happening.
While I'm new to the debate about BPL and its effects on radio frequencies, I don't think the FCC would allow for something like this if it would completely kill other, legitimate uses of radio (such as amateur frequencies and FEMA, as the grandparent post mentioned). And either way, according to ARRL, this is a Notice of Proposed Rule Making, meaning "We're thinking about deciding on this issue, so let us know what your feelings are", not necessarily "This is what's going to happen."
Three dits, four dits, two dits, dah!
Radio, radio, rah rah rah!
The only reason to use broadband over power lines is if you don't have some other type of line. If you have phone lines you can use DSL. If you have cable tv use that. If there is dormant fiber near you use that. If you have none of the above check to see whether it will cost more to use power lines or install other lines. I think the vast majority of people living in populated areas in the western world will find BPL to be the best solution.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
http://asia.cnet.com/newstech/communications/0,390 01141,39103280,00.htm
We have been having it for a year already, and we sae the penetration. Would the rest of the world repeat? Maybe it is only economically viable for countries that large. But just wonder, why didn't we trial at outlying islands instead of the middle of the city?
This should actually read: Broadband Over Power Lines: Coming Real Soon Now(tm) ? like in all those past years :-)
Frankly, I don't think we'll ever see this hardware vaporware...
FTTH is a more likely competitor to DSL/Cable, I doubt that powerlines can crank out enough bandwidth to compete, once FTTH and Cable crank out more bandwidth, (See DOCSIS 2.0 http://www.cedmagazine.com/ced/2002/0602/06wc.htm)
both DSL and Power lines will be out of the game.
Oddly enough, a recent technological innovation allows erxactly this type globally spanning communication to occur without the use of radio waves bouncing through the atmosphere. The name for this new marvel is the telephone, look for one in your neighborhood soon!
"If you're thinking what I'm thinking, you're right." -
With that kind of interference you have to take in account Electromagnetics emmissions that may disturb the health of the people living near the lines. Do you plan to have every woman, man and child walking in Tinfoil clothing untill you are absolutely shure it wont fry your brain?.
"The quality of life is inversely proportional to the number of keys on your keyring."
Vendors like D-link (who are a major home-user internet router, switches, wlan gateways etc vendor) has already started since some time a BPL modem manufacturing line.
The modems are available for import from china currently, and they're quite affordable.
Just though it might be interesting, as the technology is already in use in some parts of the world so that everything is "there" that needs to be there for it to be implented.
NED: But Reverend, could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?"
LOVEJOY: Ooh, short answer: "yes" with an "if." Long answer: "no" with a "but."
The FCC's notice specifically notes that the Japanese government in January opened up to BPL trials: http://www.soumu.go.jp/s-news/2004/040121_1.html That document is in Japanese; you can get an approximate Babelfish translation at: http://babelfish.altavista.com/babelfish/tr
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
Try to use a telephone (even a cell phone) after a disaster such as a hurricane or tornado. Even the terrorist of 9/11 has shown that phones cannot be relied upon.
Ham radio on the other hand only needs an antenna (A simple piece of wire can do that) and some type of power source such as a running car or generator.
Yes, the telephone works 98% of the time but when it fails for the 2%, it is nice to have something to fall back on.
aka: the big flash.
it's not a bad thing, just a big change, which can be difficult. the alternatives are unacceptable.
consult with/trust in yOUR creators... get ready to see the light/brighten up.
tell 'em robbIE?
Okay, so you say you are valuable during emergency situations, but if the power was out, then there would be no interference with your signals. So you could still be used during emergencies.
Half of the reason we are useful in emergencies is that we practice and rehearse during non-emergency times. Without practice, our emergency operations would be disorganized and ineffective.
It's the same way with athletes. If a basketball player doesn't play basketball during the off-season, their performance will be seriously reduced when the season starts again.
Next is that we currently are implementing push-to-talk over GSM and CDMA that would easily remove the need for the emergency bands already used. Same applies as above, when the power it down, your radios will work again.
The problem with push-to-talk (and cell phones in general) is that it is centralized, just like the rest of the phone system. Under heavy load, it tends to fail.
Except for one minor detail. Think of a major emergency that has happened in any given area, and not necessarily tied to the loss of electric power (9/11 is a good example, but one that is used way too often for my liking). Everyone jumps on their cell phones to make calls to loved ones and such, and next thing you know none of them work anymore. Bands are too overloaded, busy signals abound, phones either don't work because the provider is swamped or because the other thousand people standing around you hit "send" before you did and your phone can't find an open frequency to use.
In emergencies, hams will form traffic nets which serve the same purpose (get emergency traffic into and out of a disaster area) in a controlled manner, because it's practiced and tested. Try telling someone who just heard of a plane crash in a remote part of Iowa that they should not use their phone to try to reach a loved one, but should wait until that person calls them. Riiiight. Won't happen.
Okay, tell that to the pilot flying at 23000 feet and falling fast who needs to get a mayday out for assistance, but those pesky downloaders are eating up the bandwidth in the HF bands, so his distress call falls on deaf ears. It's not just hams we're talking about here, there is a lot of other uses for frequencies in that area.
Three dits, four dits, two dits, dah!
Radio, radio, rah rah rah!
but tag
i'll use that some day.
I don't know, but I bet that his BROADBAND kicks ass, mister HAM lover, I'm SURE that VOIP will get "free" calls a lot farther than that dipshit HAM antenna you gotz...
Doesn't everyone already know that pissing off HAM operators causes cancer?
You don't want cancer now do you?
Don't get cancer.
Reports of BPL's demise in Europe are premature. The European Union is spending many millions of dollars on developing and promoting a continent-wide BPL standard:
"European Union sponsors 20 million euro BPL (broadband over power line) project"
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
If there's a disaaster and you need to use a generator to power your Ham radio, there won't be any interference anymore anyway.
"If you're thinking what I'm thinking, you're right." -
I hope other providers jump in soon, because if Earthlink is going to be the only choice I'll stick to my crappy dial-up. http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=134553
http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=21324& lastnode_id=134553
There's no shame in being a pariah. -Marge Simpson
Parent isn't Offtopic. You just modded him down because you disagree with his opinion.
since we are looking into every single line that runs into houses to bring internet to homes, are water lines going to be next? How about pulsating water like morse code to transmit data, or better salinate it so that it can carry electricity?
Unfortunately, for you, that portion of the spectrum is allocated in accordance with International Treaty, which means that Constitutionally, it has Federal Force of Law. Good luck going through Congress and getting that Repealed, especially since FEMA uses Ham Frequencies and Hams themselves.
Black and grey are both shades of white.
I swear we just had an article about Earthlink patenting broadband over powerlines mere days ago. I'm in links right now and can't be arsed to do a search...am I wrong?
But the interference will prevent people from entering the field altogether. It will prevent people from being able to use their Federally Licensed Privelege to the Spectrum, and so emergency services (amongst other things) will suffer.
Black and grey are both shades of white.
Maybe I should be clearer: I don't care about your internet access.
Hmm... let's see:
160M: 200kHz
80M: 500kHz
40M: 300kHz
30M: 50kHz
20M: 350kHz
15M: 450kHz
12M: 100kHz
10M: 1.7MHz
"Wide band"? Where? Not until you get up to 2M (4MHz) and 70cm (30MHz), and I don't think those are even going to be affected by BPL. Your cell or cordless phone uses much more bandwidth than any of the above frequencies.
*plonk*
Three dits, four dits, two dits, dah!
Radio, radio, rah rah rah!
Oh yes, that's very important indeed. But what I'd say is at least equally important issue with Broadband Over Power Lines is that little problem that, well, it's a fucking scam for god's sake!
I have written about it countless times. Please let me quote my last post about this very issue:
I just cannot believe this thing is still around. The only reason people started trying to use power lines for broadband in the first place was not because of the actual properties of power grid as we know it (most of the comments here talk about the obvious inefficiencies, so I won't talk about it), but a completely new theory invented by Luke Stewart who promised more than billion gigabits per second (sic) with his Media Fusion scam. I suppose Earthlink investors don't know how to use Google, so please let me quote a Wired article from 2001, by Evan Ratliff:
Read the whole article and Google around for more informations. It is a very interesting scam and quite a successful one at that. Maybe that's not homeopathy but it is impressive nonetheless.
Investors, repeat after me: Google is your friend.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
There are many confused and mis-informed comments on this subject here. If someone's really interested, they can take about 15 minutes to read the actual text of the FCC's notice of proposed rule making (NPRM).
I've got more background on my blog, which cover BPL, FTTH and wireless broadband news. (You can also search the archives using the built-in search function).
Finally, the Virginia Journal of Law and Technology had a draft article on the technology and legal issues that was posted on the FCC's web site a month or two ago.
Al Bonnyman
Community Broadband Networks
To find out more about wireless Internet:
- The WISP forum on Broadband Reports (an excellent resource for all kinds of fast Internet)
- The WISP users forum on BBR
- Directory of WISPs at Part-15.org
- Another nationwide directory of WISPs
- Alvarion's broadband wireless access site - some good information in their product descriptions and white papers
--C. Crowley, Wiacomm, Inc. "Wiacomm_CC" on BBRLuke Stewart makes millions selling this idea to congress
The concept is a bad one. It's impractical. The people who say they have the technology never do.
You've been had.
On 25 November 2003 MONTREAL - Hydro-Quebec is planning to offer high-speed internet service over its power lines to compete with similar services from cable and telephone companies. The utility already uses signals over its power lines to control stoplights, but now it wants to adapt it to offer internet access. Some experts say such a service could be up to five times faster than high-speed cable internet service. Jim Carroll, author of "Surviving the Information Age," said the addition of the new service could be great for consumers. "If we have that many participants in the broadband marketplace then the real impact is perhaps it's going to help to keep prices down or drive down the monthly price," said Carroll. Jean-Paul Galarneau, of the Quebec cable company Videotron, said its service will stand up to the competition. "Videotron has to compete with satellite, we're doing pretty well today, and we're ready to fight with any competitor," said Galarneau. But some broadcasters use electrical wires as antennas for radio signals and are concerned that the internet signals could interfere with radio and television reception. Broadcast expert Jacques Bouliane said the internet signal could completely ruin television reception. "Even if you don't subscribe to the service, you would get interference from it," he said. Hydro said it won't be a problem, and pointed out that interference doesn't occur over cables that provide both television and internet service. German utilities company RWE started offering Internet service over power lines the summer of 2001, but went out of the business in 2002. Scottish Hydro-Electric offers broadband Internet service over its power lines. Canadian tech company Nortel ran tests of the technology in Britain in the late 1990s and concluded that it would be far too expensive to adapt power grids to carry internet signals. Hydro-Quebec said it will start testing the service in January and hopes to offer the service in a few years.
Sorry, quoting my post I once again forgot the link. It's The Electric Kool-Aid Bandwidth Test by Evan Ratliff, Wired, November 2001. Everyone who is interested in this story should read the whole article. I quoted only few short fragments.
The most important point about Broadband Over Power Lines is why anyone started to even think about building it. We have to ask that question before we start to talk about interference and other obvious details. Was it because most of potential Internet users don't have telephone lines? No. It was because we cannot have billion gigabits per second using copper, while according to Luke Stewart with power lines we somehow can.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
1.) I'm not a ham. I am an asshole, take it as you will.
2.) If BPL stomps on federally allocated spectrum, it is the responsibility of the power company to rectify it. If they don't the FCC will generally smack them around. Further, the end user hardware will be regulated under Part 15, and as such have to receive any interference, including but not limited to federally licensed radio transmissions.
3.) Capital letters are a valid means of emphasising words, if you don't like it too bad. I don't care about grammar nazis. You are all assholes.
Please go kill yourself, kthx bye. ^_^
Black and grey are both shades of white.
First of all, I am a licensed Ham..but for the sake of the argument I am taking off my ham hat. While a majority of hams think that we have a signifigant say in what goes on...we really don't. Anyways...moving right along... I am still in shock that the FCC has allowed BPL to prevail. Especially with the number of entities opposing it...Comercial Broadcasters (TV, FM radio, AM Radio and shortwave), The military (they still use HF), The coast guard (all vessels over a certain length are required to have a HF radio), the Airline industry, FEMA, and local public safety (yes some Police, Fire and EMS crews use VHF low-band still), oh an yeah us hams. Just goes to show you how much powrer lobby groups have (but thats an issue for another article).
Why? Uhm, let's see... Because of... billion gigabits per second maybe?
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
don't seem to care if it causes massive interference to HF as they view it as "OLD" technology
I dealt with a regional power utility in the past and can share some perspective on why BPL is being crammed down our throats. These utilities usually suffer from extreme cases of NIH - "not invented here" syndrome. Nothing other than what they deal with is ever cool, interesting, etc.
1. Ethernet over FOGWIRE (fiber over ground - where fiber is strung through the middle of the top static wire - a nifty trick)? "Ethernet is untested and unreliable... our clients insist on TDM only." Hmm... Level3 and countless other Ethernet-based fiber networks aren't "tested".
2. Unlicensed wifi links? "Unreliable and untested. Can't use them. Licensed only" (except I've found them sneaking in Cisco Aironets with no security. Oops!)
3. BPL and interference? "That's just claims. When *we* implement, we'll have no problems because we're smarter than those other guys having interference problems" (this from an extra class ham who's the head engineer).
Another Warren Buffet owned utility in these parts features the "county-wide outage of the day" - god forbid a bunny get near a substation. Rumor is Buffet's getting ready to dump transmission because they're no money in it. Everyone here has neglected transmission. Only money is in the power generation.
And what's that BPL gonna run over again? Good luck!
1. If I upgrade my house from standard 100 amp service to say 200 amp service does it double the speed of my inet connect?
2. If I grab the black wire in the outlet can I download/upload www data to my noggin directly?
ping -f
</humor>
Well, apparently, as Evan Ratliff once said in 2001, Luke Stewart -- self-proclaimed national treasure -- carries on...
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Okay, so you say you are valuable during emergency situations, but if the power was out, then there would be no interference with your signals. So you could still be used during emergencies.
This has been covered at nauseum and good examples were pointed out. Fact of the matter is, HAMs, since you mentioned them, are all voluntary. If I cant use my new HF radio when I want to, I certainly am NOT going to shell out several hundred bucks for it, which means I wont be able to call the (insert emergency agency here) to come save your ass when (insert disaster here) happens.
Next is that we currently are implementing push-to-talk over GSM and CDMA that would easily remove the need for the emergency bands already used. Same applies as above, when the power it down, your radios will work again.
Really? I was under the impression that those require such things as an infrastructure. so, what good is your PTT going to do when the towers come down due to tornadoes or a major hurricaine?
What if the power is down for several weeks? those towers that pass the messages along dont power themselves...
GSM and such are nice tech, but not 100% reliable. I, however, can take a small simple tranciever, powered by a single 9v battery, and talk across the country for a month. (well, maybe only about 2-3 weeks before a battery change).
There are environmental advantages to this in that we can have less cables stretched all over the US saving in wire costs and insulation materials.
And far more environmental advantage in replacing the existing cable/telephone system with fiber. Then you can get all the phone/broadband/televisions you want, all delivered over a single line.
Lets just accept that we are going to have to step on toes to make this happen.
Sure... but why step on the wrong toes? There are far better ways to bring broadband to rural areas than PLC/BPL. Hell, with the pervasiveness of cell phones now, you could cover a LOT just by placing WAPs on existing cell towers.
How much are you valuing your ability to use a radio over the ability of a rural community to have Internet access for their children, education, and entertainment?
Well, oddly enough, it is EXACTLY those rural communities, that often do NOT have much in the way of emergency equipment/supplies, do not have much in the way of trained emergency response personnel, and do not have much in the way of any sort of emergency communications system that NEED things like HF communications. There were very large portions of NC in 2002 that relied SOLELY on HAM operators for all their communications. In fact, in many cases, HAMs were the police/fire/ems comms, plus comms to emergency shelters, supply depots, and liason between civilian and military units.
Oh well, there are more important things to worry about, I guess... because everyone deserves streaming pr0n.
"Our funds have never taken part in toxic or death spiral convertible financings of any sort" -BayStar's managing partne
Could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?
Ham radio will face a new competitor called broadband noise once Earthstink cranks up these hash generators.
Wansu, th' chinese sailor
Is it me or is the number of bad, tastless posts risen dramatically since the last 2 weeks? There have been some really nasty posts recently, many racists and more that what the average was only a month ago.
Anybody have a clue on why this sudden rise?
let me know if I am wrong, but the issue is that because of the interference, people won't be able to communicate using HAM. But if BPL is working, then why can't they just communicate over the powerlines. If for some reason the power goes out and doesn't work, then there will be no interference and you can use your HAM radio to your delight.
This is by no means a solution, but i don't think old technologies should stand in the way of inovation.
This might also be a great oportunity to finally upgrade our power grid. We are using unsheilded wire in most of the country, perhaps we should upgrade at least in the cities, there are also saftey issues with high voltage powerlines. Maybe, and this is a big maybe, the utility companies will upgrade their infrastructure.
Damn - what are they thinking! That's bound to attract Godzilla! Do you have any idea how much of Japan's national budget already goes into re-stringing high-tension wires every time he goes on a rampage?
Your cell or cordless phone uses much more bandwidth than any of the above frequencies.
You, sir, do rule.
buford_tannen, police scanner and shortwave listener. (and maybe a ham someday).
Buford "Mad Dog" Tannen
I am yet to see any sort of comprehensive study on the environmental effects of modulating power lines (a damn difficult task without BPL in the mix), there has been a lot of FUD but very little research. I do not know what rating power lines they intend to transmit these signals over, but I have spent many an interesting hour reading about the effects that the existing 50-60Hz AC current has on the ionised air around high tension power lines. Regardless of the more esoteric "corona flow" and "ionic squirt" of high voltage lines, it is a bad idea to expand our power lines into higher frequencies.
The non-ionizing portion of the spectrum can be subdivided into:
Wavelength bigger than body = good.
Wavelength smaller than body = bad.
Heh ok, tinhat off now. :)
Q.
Insert Signature Here
And, most likely, there will be nothing you can legally do to stop that, because they have priority on those frequencies.
Only an idiot would choose a transmission medium that can be so easily disrupted remotely and covertly. I can drive around with a van destroying the internet for hundreds of thousands of people at a time. And depending on the power level, it's totally legal.
Oh, and thanks for sending all your traffic over a gigantic antenna. I'll have fun cracking the pathetic DES encryption and reading all your private stuff.
I dare say that you would be most upset with BPL if it interfered with your high brow programs such as the simpsons. After all, you could always read a book. What's that? Can't read? Didn't think so.
1:)The charging circuitry inside the UPS is designed only to charge the internal battery bank. By adding a huge string of internal batteries, you very well may be overloading the charger. 2:)The inverter circuitry inside the UPS is no doubt designed for limited duty cycle. Running it on a long-term basis (longer than the internal battery would have powered it) will require upgraded heatsinks on the switching transistors, and improved cooling fans. If the inverter transformer is also underrated for continuous use, you will need to forced-air cool it, as well.
Remember "News for Nerds, Stuff that Matters"? Help make it a reality again! http://soylentnews.org
needs of the many?
With all due respect, the internet isn't exactly a 'need', much less broadband. It's a 'want', sure, but not 'need'.
now how will I surf the 'net when the power lines go down? Uh, hold on... never mind!
"Freedom means freedom for everybody" -- Dick Cheney
Just wait for the BPL harmonics to start ruining your TV reception. Then you can blame TV for holding back the internet.
Could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?
Let's hope so, I would be love to see SBC and Comcast go out of business (or at least shut down their internet division). They might try to brag about having the worlds most solid network, or some crap, but customer service is a biggy too, and they suck at that. The fact that they extort their users into paying higher fees (or subscribing to a different service) is another thing I hate. Who knows though, BPL providers will probably be just as bad.
Listen to the 2/12/04 FCC meeting at: http://www.fcc.gov/realaudio/agendameetings.html
They discuss BPL and how they will deal with interference and questions regarding the regulation of BPL services. The key thing is that BPL should be compliant with Part 15 rules. A must listen.
Even more to the point -- wet-cell lead-acid batteries can produce hydrogen gas when charging, especially when being charged improperly. A UPS-grade SLA charger will most likely do that to a wet-cell.
If any of you do hook up wet-cell batteries to your UPS indoors, please set up a webcam to watch it -- it would make a great Real TV clip.
Wouldnt it be more efficient to get Yahoo or Window Messenger and talk to someone for free half way around the world?
I know Ham operator will argue that Ham is needed during disaster/power outage/etc. But if disaster struct and the power is out - there wouldnt be any interference from BPL, and all you Ham operator can operate. But if there is power, why not use the internet, it's faster, you can relay more message with a single keystroke
I hope that's as easy to clean up as bird droppings
What?
I suppose the potential for BB over power lines is cool considering the vast coverage of the power grid. However it was my understanding that getting around the transformers was the main problem with this technology. They were going to have to demodulate the data signal from the carrier before the tranformer and then modulate the signal again after the transformer. Have they found a solution for this?
Thanks,
Wyley
For all those who don't belive amateur radio has any place in todays world... http://www.hamtronics.com/forest_fire.htm
Chris, VE3TIC
My suburban subdivision, 5 miles from NASA/Goddard, can't get DSL, and my neighborhood is less than 15 years old. Around here, "new" phone wires have digital concentrators between your home and the COLO points where DSL hardware lives. These concentrators not only screw up DSL, they break V.90 modems too - the fastest I've ever seen on dialup from my house is 28000.
Currently my only reasonable broadband choice is cable via Comcast. I dearly hope broadband via powerline works someday soon, as Comcast could use the competition.
To a Lisp hacker, XML is S-expressions in drag.
Why not just buy/build an inverter setup used by motorhomes? Dad's is essentially home built using a Trace RV inverter/charger that takes input from shore, a generator, or the engine. Dad uses 6V golf cart batteries in his bus and I'm pretty sure there's a wide range of batteries you can use with these inverters. *And* it will switch automagically between the input sources depending on power availability.
Stick 'er in the garage or wherever and then you only need your dinky UPS to handle cutovers. Dad's is powerful enough to handle a side-by-side fridge, misc. lights and the satellite and TV for several days without charging.
It's more expensive than jury-rigging a cheapie UPS, but it's a hell of a lot safer.
I've heard that BPL is a "last mile" solution. Does that mean that something like fiber optic cable would be used up to that last mile? If so, how does that help a hard-to-reach rural area when you're primarily using fiber lines to reach them anyway? I mean, I can understand how it might help a dense "last mile" area (say, a block of apartment buildings not having to be rewired) but everyone's touting the rural area idea.
"Shared pain is lessened; shared joy is increased. Thus we refute entropy" - Spider Robinson
Seems like you're the only one in this thread against HAM operators. Do you stand to gain financially from BPL deployment?
You are a fucktard. Cellphones will NOT work in an emergency any more than regular phones will. Which is what the push-to-talk stuff actually is. They require cell towers, fiberoptics, and so on. Cellphones did not work very well in New York during the blackout.
And yes, I value my ability to use a radio in an emergency more than someone else's ability to watch streaming gay porn.
Progress Energy is the BPL provider in the Wake County test.
Here's a press release about their partnership with Earthlink.
Chip H.
How clueful. Evidently you don't know CB (27 MHz) is interfered with by BPL also.
-=Maggie Leber=-
Many if not most of the systems propose carrying the signal to the pole outside of the house, and then doing the last 100 feet or so via WiFi.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
The problem I see is all the flying cars crashing into the power lines not only taking out the lights but Internet access as well. Bummer dude.
Allow me to note a problem that the non-ham geeks will care about. Those cool atomic clock watches and gadgets? They don't really have an atomic clock in them. They work by getting radio signals from WWV. If you have BPL in your neighborhood, you can say goodbye to those clocks.
Of course, there are always sundials...
As a ham, I think if we can stop this technology long enough, not forever, it will be leapfrogged by ubiquitous fixed wireless service. Then you don't have to worry about the Cable Guy climbing up on a pole and messing with 19.2 kV wiring, you don't have to worry about interference, etc.etc. The current NRPM is just to placate the utility lobbyists and their whores at the FCC.
Already, in some rural areas, there is high-quality paid service based on WiFi. http://www.dslreports.com/dosearch reports 788 wireless plans, many in rural or semi-rural areas.
Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
Maybe I should be clearer: none of us care about your hobby.
Wrong.
When things go wrong and none of the exotic high-speed stuff works, the hams can and do manage to get some word out when nothing else can get anything out. I'm not talking high-speed stuff like 300 baud modems either. When the choice is between a few words and no words, a few words is much better.
Broadband over power lines? Seems like you'd have better luck with gigabit ethernet over silver-satin telephone cables.
>"With technology improving and costs droppings,
>News.com offers up an interesting report..."
If costs are dropping, support is non-existant,
and the service guy can't seem to show up sometime
between 12 and 5, why are my expenses going up?
"...the shortest distance between two points may be straight line, but it is by no means the most interesting."
Yes, but the people you want to talk to probably still have power. The interference is on the receiving end.
So I guess this means if the power goes out your internet connection goes out as well. Thats terrible, I like surfing the web with no power.
If it won't boot, Fsck it!
How many times do we need the same responses from the same HAM operators to basically the same story?
If you need a hobby, get a CB or something, but the rest of us want our internet.
You sir, are the first person I've seen in years who so perfectly fits the discription of an ignoramus.
this technology is not interesting at all. it is another stupid gimmick that can possibly be dangerous if implemented.
care less factor++
Umm, one thing I think needs to be pointed out..the frequencies we are talking about extend down to the H.F./Shortwave bands..at these frequencies, it is possible to communicate across the globe using extremely low power. Which means, first, that International Treaties on radio frequencies would need to be re-written, since the interference generated would be world-wide, which most countries would not be happy about. Second, the false assumption that if the power is out locally, the interference would disappear. This would not be the case. When you are talking about frequencies in the H.F./shortwave bands (roughly 2-30Mhz), transmitters as small as 1 watt (or smaller) can communicate across the globe. So, the drop in interference if local power is out would be minimal. The international agreements on radio spectrum usage, again, would never allow the U.S. to go ahead with such a plan.
The upper frequency limits of BPL are supposed
to be 80 MHZ. Nyquist give us a limit on sample
rate. Shannon tells us that noise is also to be
reckoned with. Our data rate will be lower than
theoretical (what a surprise!). Look at all the
noise; crosstalk, corona discharge (power lines
are very noisey on their own), the proclivity of
power lines to act as antennas (receive and
transmit). You will very quickly see the nature
of power lines themselves throttling back your
useful bandwidth.
You will be sharing your particular piece of
this proposed vast collision domain with everyone else on your network segment and possibly even
more than them. Bye bye more bandwidth.
Now consider that nature throws electrical
storms, high winds that wiggle the connections
constantly, extreme temperature swings, earth
tremors, ect., to the point that what you get
is the physical world punching your network
(hence it's bandwidth) right in the face with
even more interference.
Also, the next time you're out driving around,
take a look at all the fuses, disconnects, and
other control apparati the power companies put
up on the poles to control and isolate segments,
and you end up with a lot of points of failure
that are exposed to the physical world. Power
lines were engineered first and foremost to
deliver POWER to customers. The infrastructure
put in place is designed specifically for this.
Data is a Johnny-come-lately the infrastructure wasn't engineered for. A lot of retrofits are in
store just to get things working at all, much
less well.
Oh, and a UPS isn't going to keep you online if
a lightning strike blows one of those fuses
up on the pole. The segment will become isolated
(without any connectivity) if that happens.
Oh well. If you have a UPS and have the phone
modem still installed in your computer, you can
dial-up. Right?
By the way. The FCC isn't the only entity with
a say-so over the RF spectrum. The NTIA regulates
radio for the federal government (Yes folks. Once
again, what's sauce for us geese, isn't sauce for them ganders!).
seem to like BPL much, either.
I could have swore the point of broadband over powerlines was both to make it A) cheaper and B) easily available to everyone. While B is met, A is still not being realized. Everywhere else in the world is getting broadband over powerlines for somewhere around $20 a month however here they ask $50. This is just sad, so much for cheap broadband.
You are a fucking idiot who does not know what he is talking about, sir.
"Someone else's," eh?
you are very, very gay. please die now.
Say what you will; but new technology, as reliable as it may seem, can go drastically wrong. I would hate to be the guy stuck with his thumbs up his ass not knowing what to do in such an emergency and to not have the longitude clock/sextant or HAM guy around to bail me out.
"The strong will do what they want, the weak will do what they must."
-Thucydides
Yes, because we know everyone has a Ham Radio with a license.
What ever happened to "The Digital Devide" and "No Child Left Behind"?
I am a little confused by the concerns that BPL will interfere with amateur radio operators. Just how effective a radiator is a transmission line? What percent of the power is radiated versus transmitted over the line, and how does this compare with the power levels required by radio operators?
It's bad enough that our 2.4 gig band is already saturated by wifi, cordless phones and microwave ovens...or half our 220 band was taken from us and then hardly used...or our 40 meter band is so overrun with high power SW broadcasters it's unusable...or our 10 meter band is half taken over by CBers running illegal high power on illegal frequencies...or that we have to be constantly vigilant that the rest of our UHF spectrum isn't taken away. NOW you want to destroy our entire HF spectrum too..along with short wave broadcasting. Don't any of you understand that power lines make great HF antennas? Or that at HF frequencies with an efficient antenna all you need is 100 milliwatts (.1 watt) to be heard across the world? Just imagine what THOUSANDS of these BPL transmitters running one watt or more will do to the shortwave bands worldwide! Plus, other countries use HF for broadcasting. Just because we happen not to here in the USA doesn't mean we have the right to destroy their radio stations with hash interference. Please...PLEASE...leave us alone for once!
Hey - you forgot 14 kHz on 60M! (in the U.S. at least -- 5 channels, 2.8 kHz each)
You are clearly wrong, as it is scored as Score:5, Insightful and not Score:-1, Offtopic as you imply. That having been said, all of the childish whining about the "karma" aside, the point is that if it were not for the billions gigabits per second no one would ever invest in that scam and use power lines for broadband in any place where copper lines are available, because power lines have no advantages over copper lines other than the bullshit from Media Fusion scam. Please read the article, it is not about some third world country where there is no copper. "Could cable and DSL face a new competitor in the broadband market in the near future?" The proper answer to this very question is: "Of course not! Are you nuts?!" Why? Exactly because of the very (off-topic in your opinion) things I dared to write about.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Hmm. Considering the behavior of some CB operators, maybe BPL isn't such a bad thing. ;) Nah, they'd just crank up the power on the ol' "lean-yur."
"Sometimes a man's gotta do what a woman wouldn't consider." - Red Green
Read my post below...
During the time of emergency, the power is out. So the BPL transmissions will have quit, and everyone is free to use their Ham Radios.
What we need is to get it over with. Single mode fiber to every home. This would solve all of the worlds problems, with the exception of the MPAA and RIAA.
Southeastern Virginia REPRESENT!
I skimmed instead of RTFA, but isn't this carrier wave technology, and if so, how does it interfere with HAM radio? Or, am I way the heck off the mark here?
I do have a hobby that I have invested thousands of dollars in, radio controlled airplanes. I must carry a million dollar liability policy in case I loose control of a plane and hurt or kill someone. BPL would make my equipment useless.
Ummm, if the phone lines are down doesn't it stand to reason that the power lines are down? And if the power lines are down are you going to have HAM interference?
What if Digg added local news and a Slashdot inspired comment karma system? ---
http://houndwire.com
But before the power goes out the noise floor is up into the roof and no one can practice with their radios. Tuning in HF signals is not like punching numbers into your car stereo, its an art and requires listening to a voice or CW signal often just a bar or two over the static. All emergency services train before the event happens, and radio is no different.
KG6NMP
Search & Rescue
Sheriff Communications Reserve
It seems to me to be a bit foolish to rely on such an outdated infrastructure to supply broadband service. While the telco infrastructure isn't much better, I've experienced fewer instances of losing dialtone than I have power in the last few years. And not only that, the power infrastructure is much more prone to wide-spread, catastrophic failure than is the phone infrastructure (Hello, east coast outage last fall?).
;-)
IMHO, wireless seems to be the answer from both consumer and business perspectives. While the consumer enjoys the added flexibility wireless broadband affords them, providers enjoy a cheaper, easier to support infrastructure. I guess I could sum it up by saying, "Wired broadband is soooo 1990's."
Why was I modded down?
Earthlink Invests In Broadband Over Powerlines
This company has a large fiber optic network they have been runninng for years. I am not sure how much they will need to use the actual power lines.
I'd like this because where I live, my phone company is very lazy, my neighbors all around me can get dsl and highspeed, some reason, we're ineligible, yet the wiring in the houses are the same (and before people reply arguing how do I know, blah blah blah, you're a moron, etc trying to be righteous like so many people have done when I mention that) I've checked, and I also live in a condominium, we all have the same wiring specs. but anyways, this wuldb e a nice thing to have seeing as it goes faster than conventional dsl (IIRC) and it can go anywhere, it's a nice step towards gettong the nation connected so at least we can start heading for the bigger stuff (like fibre in the home, etc)
I couldn't agree more wholeheartedly. Everything one could do with power line, one could also do with copper which is just like power lines only without the high voltage 60 or 50 Hz signal interferring, without the need to pass transformators and amplifiers both ways and with much better physical properties of the medium. The fiber networks on the other hand, are the real future for data transfers, where we could obtain almost limitless speeds of transmission, thousands of times faster than what's possible with copper, using the very photons, the quants of light itself, instead of the electricity.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
In the Notice of Proposed Rulemaking the FCC says that BPL is being deployed worldwide, but I don't see any mention of the study in the UK citing interference, or the incident in Austria that caused them to cut their study short.
No, I didn't RTFA, didn't read any posts, I barely read the damn summary. I am damn sick of seeing a /. post every two fucking months about "BPL is 'Real Close Now.'" When the first real Powerline network is installed, fine, tell me. Don't keep telling me about this "great new idea" I have seen a million times before.
You didn't say which Navy....
But according to stuff I have seen on the Discovery channel recently about the US Navy the big boats and subs all have a guy doing sextant, compass and map calculations as a back up 24/7.
It could be that your uncle was one of the bridge guys and didn't quite catch that it's policy to do that...
The power companies might find it more cost-effective to string fiber on their rights of way and become a service provider in that manner.
However, any way you look at it, this is a diversion from the main mission of the power companies: to deliver power to homes and businesses.
If they're outside the scope of the disaster, they're probably too far away to help.
"If you're thinking what I'm thinking, you're right." -
this isn't really a reason, but it could have something to do with the contribution to it.
a friend of mine in Canada told me recently that someone at his school was trolling here to try to get him banned from computer access and/or suspended from school.
obviously that other kid is a moron and is most likely contributing to the tripe trolling here.
grey wolf
LET FORTRAN DIE!
yeah why not? I need to download isos, play quake online with LOW ping and pr0nsurf fast, so if that means everyone will have to start dressing in tinfoil, then so be it!
Which means that therefore, I guess, I somehow lost the argument? (Please take no offense but I find your childish rhetoric hilariously amusing.)
No. It might indicate it only if the said information did not apply indeed, which you have failed to prove so far.
Great! I could hardly wait.
Really? I would have never guessed it myself! Good thing I was paying attention, like you kindly asked me, because otherwise I would have no idea what I was linking to and talking about all the time. I am truly grateful for the enlightment.
I see. It is fairly common to idiots to have moderation points and my comment has been moderated as high as it could possible have, therefore it must be wrong and I must be an idiot, must I not? Have you learned your logic from The Fallacy Files by any chance?
Again, not quite correct. Even if having to point it out would somehow prove that I am indeed either new here or a complete idiot (which it does not), you would still have to prove that you had to point it out in the first place, for that sentence to make any sense whatsoever, even if only as a a rhetorical figure, and still quite poor at that. See: Basic Logic 101.
Literally tons of pointless research has been applied toward developing devices to make this happen (the same one could say about e.g. lossless random data compression, reusable key one time pad cryptography, homeopathy, perpetuum mobile, and any other snake oil) with the unsurprising result that it in fact cannot be built, the only logical consequence of which would be to forget about the whole idea, because as I have already said countless times, everything one could do with power line, one could also do with copper which is just like power line only without the high voltage 60 or 50 Hz signal interfering, without the need to pass transformators and amplifiers both ways and with much better physical properties of the medium, while the only advantage the power lines were supposed to have was billion gigabits per second.
But only the ridiculously high bandwidth would justify the higher cost of deployment and all of the problems inherent to power grid being used as a data transfer medium. Remember that y
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
That is interesting that we can use photons of different energy (i.e. light of different colour) causing hardly as much interference as with superposition of electromagnetic signals of different frequency even in the best hyperconductive wire. I won't even mention completely new applications which are only starting to get developed.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Your using BPL? And your connection is slow? No problem! You just have a dirty connection. Simply unplug your modem from the wall socket, take a screwdriver, paperclip or other narrow metal object and jiggle it around in the socket. Your problem will clear up in no time!
Fools ignore complexity; pragmatists suffer it; experts avoid it; geniuses remove it. ~A. Perlis
Hm... I like the word you use... art...
KD5YPT, don't have a radio yet.
In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
QUOTE: "If you need a hobby, get a CB or something, but the rest of us want our internet"
CB radio will be ruined too.. have any more suggestions?
Well said, one more point, with the kind of interference BPL will cause, you won't EVEN hear the CB signals.
In US, you can easily buy enough major firearms to wipe out your neighbourhood but a few little fireworks are banned.
QUOTE: "If it does, needs of the many over hobbies of the few."
I'm sorry, but, I don't think you understand Underbridge and many others flaming HAM's
This isn't going to help "Millions", this BPL is going to be limited in its deployment, meaning, you'll have to be within 1 mile of the source... just like Broadband... or cable..
It's not like this is going to offer broadband to those in the Lake of the Ozarks, or in the middle of a forest where power is available...
It's going to be limited in use of deployment, and it'll be deployed basically where CABLE and DSL are deployed.... meaning, it doesn't help anyone
In the places BPL will be available, several other forms of internet will be available too:
* Dialup
* Satellight
* Wireless Internet
* Cable
* DSL
Here is the reasoned approach. The Australian Communication Authority (ACA) [the Aussie version of the USA's Federal Communications Commission (FCC)] has spoken out against BPL systems, here (see "What Issues do these Systems Raise?" p7) and here.
Looking at space, radio, science and computing from a 'down-under' amateur enthusiast perspective.
I agree. This stuff has been in "testing" for at least ten years now, and it has had the same problems all along, interference issues and all that. Someone wake me up if it actually gets into production.... :-)
Employee of Inrupt, Project Release Manager and Community Manager for Solid
No. The guy was wrong. Even if having a high moderation score does not mean the moderated post has to be correct (I consciously avoid the term "doesn't say anything" because it does) it does not mean that having said hight moderation score means the post is incorrect. This is a fallacious argument, violating the most basic rules of propositional logic.
And your point is? If I had not found this very subject intresting then I believe I would not have written about it, now would I?
If you had read my (apparently boring) riposte carefully, you would have known that using power grid for data transfer making sense only in places lacking any better medium was exactly my point to begin with and the very reason of talking about Media Fusion scam in the first place.
I am sure you realize that it is a very weak analogy. If you insist on using a good analogy, this one would be much stronger: saying that the federal interstate system should not waste money on trying to implement a car powered by engine burning iron ore, which while certainly possible is utterly stupid and the only reason people started to think about it in any place not lacking much better and widely used energy sources like oil, was because of some scam artist many years ago, who promised that he can build a car which would use one gram of iron per billion kilometers.
I belive it would make perfect sense to point out how that farce has started in any discussion involving arguments on why burning iron ore is not very practical when compared to gasoline.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
I believe people should make "good on" their promises (dictionary usage), and it is indeed colloquial usage (slang or "hick-speak" for the cerebrally challenged) in australia to express approval using the same phrase.
I funnily enough don't get upset over dialectic differences on international websites, but anal retentive hair splitting over slang usage makes you seem like a fool.
Q. (Bad timing, 48 hours without sleep and I'm looking for a fight:)
Insert Signature Here
No, it means you're either too dumb to understand the moderation system or too new to know better than to make statements, such as you made.
I was not asking about the literal meaning of that sentence, since it seems to be quite obvious, even if in a somewhat immature, yet humourous way. I was asking about its implication in the context of our dispute---the very implication which you wanted to discuss. I am sorry if I had not been precise.
I have already disproven the validity of this very argument in my previous post. Replying to "The fact that I have to point all this out, is reason enough to acknowledge that you're either new here or a complete idiot." I wrote, I quote: "Even if having to point it out would somehow prove that I am indeed either new here or a complete idiot (which it does not), you would still have to prove that you had to point it out in the first place, for that sentence to make any sense whatsoever, even if only as a a rhetorical figure, and still quite poor at that."
The point is that you take your ad hoc, unproven, question-begging premiss for granted ("The fact that I have to spell out") and furthermore construct an argument which in itself could hardly be considered valid.
If the argument is invalid (even having true premiss) or the premiss is false (even if the argument is otherwise perfectly valid), your argument fails to prove your conclusion that I am an idiot or new here. This is not to say, though, that invalidity of your argument means validity of counterargument, id est that I am neither an idiot nor new here, which---needless to say---would be a classical example of argumentum ad logicam, no more, no less.
Therefore I assert that the sentence "Mr. Pan T. Hose, PhD, is either an idiot or new on Slashdot weblog" has yet to be proven.
You have quoted me completely out of context. It should be:
Sadly, you don't [see], or I wouldn't be here typing again. What a dolt.
As you can clearly see now whithout the contextomy distorting my intended meaning of that sentence, you failed to disprove the invalidity of your argument which I pointed out previously. Furthermore, calling me a "dolt," whatever that was supposed to mean, does not make your reasoning sound any more valid, to say the very least. You might consider avoiding such invectives for your arguments to be sound at least, even if not valid.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
Please at least try controlling your language. I have to remind you that this is Slashdot.
Are you serious? Which part is that?
The only part when I even mention you is the first paragraph where I literally repeat words previously written by your friend (which you had no problems with whatsoever) and only point out that even if they are true it still does not imply that my reasoning is incorrect.
I guess you have guessed correctly, I indeed take medication, like in fact most of people I know, but I fail to see your point about the fact of taking medications being somehow correlated with the validity of my arguments or the lack thereof. I have to remind you that argumentum ad hominem is utterly fallacious.
Sincerely,
Pan Tarhei Hosé, PhD.
"Homo sum et cogito ergo odi profanum vulgus et libido."
MAN! did you even read this post:
3 95 365
3 82 007
/. that I've ever seen. LOL!" and "this does a wonderful job of highlighting how big of an idiot you are." and "You're a lost treasure of stupidity!!!" ...
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=98025&cid=8
or this one:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=98025&cid=8
man?
That guy basically PROVED you are dumb!
And YOU call HIM idion and dolt and say:
"Good thing you are an idiot, which obviously has no idea what you're talking about, otherwise, the laws of physics and economics would change before our eyes." and "You are one of the biggest idiots/trolls on
My GOD! ROTFL!!!!!!1!
Man I almost DIED laughing when I read all of this thread! I hope are going to reply. My advice: Maybe this time try to not call him an idiot... BEcause IMHO this guy may be a psycho etc. but he's anything BUT idiot.
THis is great shit, OMFG!!!!@!! Iv'e no idea what both of you were smoking but this GREAT shit man!!
OMFG!