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Ford Testing a New 'Traffic Monitoring' Device
Poletown writes "The Detroit Free Press put out this article today about a new vehicle based 'traffic monitoring' system that Ford is testing. It will report your speed, the road temperature, whether or not your wipers/headlights are active, and even if you've used your anti-lock brakes. Initially, the system will be tested on Ford-owned and municipal vehicles."
Quick! Someone make me a hat!
it does all that but it doesn't drive yet!??
but seriously, what use is a traffic monitoring system - if you live in an area REALLY hit by traffic (i live near Central London, UK), there is usually almost no way to avoid it! what's the use unless you're a long distance commuter, or want to decide whether to use subway/underground or car
tim
no more tittie bar lunches for the Public Works sand trucks anymore I guess...
*shrug*
e.
Build Your Own PVR/HTPC news, reviews, &
Good idea but it won't work, here's why. This essentialy puts in real time monitoring information from your car's computer to a relay device that collates and condenses the information. In thoery this could allow more localized reporting conditions such as areas where a certain valley with a river can have weather different than the sorrounding community and so on. The article doesn't note if this is GPS enabled or not, but it would inevitably happen sooner or later.
But it wont work because if a device can tell if your antilock brakes are working it can just as easily tell if your speeding or any other number of big brother activities. This information could be relayed to your local municipality and insurance company. Imagine discovering that you've gotten a speeding ticket and your insurance rates went up before you even finished driving home.
This would be a very effective privacy erosion and people will rebel with the inevitable horror stories that would follow. Your boss could find out if you go drinking on the weekend, and so on. Imagine anyone being able to use this "public" information to stalk or harass someone. Since the information would reported to municipalities, it would by definition be public unless legislated otherwise.
Now, you could make it work, and it could produce very nice real time results. If several thousand cars all suddenly come to a crawl where traffic conditions wouldn't otherwise call for it an automated dispatch to 911 could be sent to find out why - there's probably a good reason for it. The problem is that you have to find a way of reporting the information in aggragate and without the ability to uniquely identify where it's coming from. If it can be uniquely identified it will be subponead by some lawyer and abused.
Microsoft will soon take away Ford's glory, Bill vs Henry round two with Traffodata 04.
Nerd history of the Traffodata is located in Fire in the Valley, a great computer history book.
This would be cool if there was some way to hook up your own home PC and access the data. You could write cool python scripts to visualize your commute to work, etc.
When I have kids, I'll expect updates on all their cars' data at regular intervals.
I can't decide whether to praise this kind of "innovation" for the convenience, or to complain about the possibilities for abuse. I know we'll hear plenty of both - but I'll lean toward praising this for now. Technology will always be abused, and complaining about basically harmless things and their potential for evil is not generally productive.
Hey, why not? GM sells cars that do a pretty good job of spying on the driver, and people buy it for this excellent "feature." And to them, it is a feature. It just takes some good marketing spin.
If every single car being made had something like this, then there would be cause for concern. Otherwise, just don't buy the cars that have this if you don't want it. Simple.
You probably shouldn't click this.
This can potentially further clog the microwave/radio spectrum, depending on the range of these sensors. Also, unless some standard exists/is applied, competing manufacturers could select different protocols, leading to a babel of messages, and more traffic jams rather than less
It could have some good use as an anti-theft device.
No comments on the Orwellian overtones of the original post
This is government-funded, so they are going to be seeing the data at some time. What is to stop them from sending a ticket in the mail from the information they collected?
...don't question it!!!
From the article: "Slow vehicle speeds with frequent stops would signal traffic congestion, for instance."
uh... it could also signal that my Mom is at the wheel...
No man is an island, but Gary is a city in Indiana.
the ECU in a modern car already logs half of those things listed. The data from your ECU can be used against you in court. I can see this becoming a full production line "feature"
See Sig! See Sig Zig! Zig Sig Zig!!!!!
The devices on them would collect traffic-related data including vehicle
speed, location and which direction the vehicle is heading.
So long as they remain voluntary, and can be turned off...
<grrr>
While I'm sure most will comlain about the lack of privacy, or the slippery slope of collecting such data and the danger of it eventualyl being used to issue tickets, I find it's an interesting approach.
It would potentially give better a better idea about traffic congenstion and weather conditions. It beats trying to set up a bunch of "stations" near highways to monitor traffic and weather in different places.
In the end, though, I don't see it flying. Too many people will be against it and the benefits will probably not justify the costs.
Hopefully this will help getting the speeding jerks off our roads. Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind having completely remote-computer controlled cars in our lifetime.
The owls are not what they seem
I used to do EPA/OSHA type building inspections.
Once I was asked to do some inspection work on a DOT (department of transportation) site, and they had just finished installing (and monitoring) useage of their DOT vehicles.
I was there when the output was generated. The DOT devices monitored how long the vehicles were in motion, how far they traveled, how fast, how long they stopped and using a GPS, where exactly they were at any given time.
The workmen knew nothing of this installation until that point in time.
The moral? The crews weren't doing what they were supposed ot be doing (running about filling potholes) and instead (as found by the GPS) were down at a local bar and grill, drinking it up.
So they were fired.
Sure, they probably deserved it, but should they have been fired in this manner? This device *sounds* like it could be used for *exactly* that.
Something to think about.
So rise up, all ye lost ones, as one, we'll claw the clouds.
I'm not going to be car owner anymore...
Now I'm just going to be a user of the Ford Mobile Traffic Network.
But I bet I'll be allowed to opt-out... If I can fill out all the paperwork.
and wanting all this information about me? Ford wants to know this...Bud Light wants to know that...
And yet when I give these companies the information I WANT them to know about, they shred my resume.
Don't you love how the world works?
The "intelligent roadway" concept sounds all gee-whiz and cool, but the fact still remains that it's we, the drivers, who are responsible for both the volume and the density of traffic. Our being on the roads in the first place generates the volume, and our need to get "there" first generates the density.
Someone posted a link to this site about how one driver can singlehandedly eliminate traffic waves simply by not driving like a nut. I've tried it, and it's not difficult, but I can't imagine convincing my wife to let a gap open up in front of her... there's something in human nature that rebels at the thought of someone else getting ahead of you in line.
My prediction: If these devices and systems lead to more efficient roads, then there will simply be more people on the roads. The end result will be *worse* congestion than before. That's why building new expressways is so futile -- you just can't build your way out of gridlock. [Insert mass transit rant here]
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
I can just imagine Ford's lawyer's contacting my mechanic for violating the DMCA by diabling my monitoring equipment. I can't WAIT for this stuff to come out :P
Here in Montreal, they buried a bunch of sensors into the ground under the major highways. These sensors track in realtime the flow of traffic, so you can have an instant glimpse at the entire network's traffic status, and find out where to avoid. For now it's a small portion of the roads, but it's already proven to be very effective. Can't wait until more roads have that and the map! See it here.
Wow... I can't say how much this kind of thing scares me. As an advocate for privacy, I don't want people to be able to follow my every move.
/me shudders
I realize, of course, that there are benefits of being able to track cars. Finding stolen cars, keeping unsafe drivers off the road, et cetera, but sometimes you have to sacrifice all these things for the rights of the individual. Our culture has a tendency to take ideas with good intentions and take them to dangerous extremes. Take bias censorship in schools, for example. There are extensive rules that publishing companies have in place so as not to offend children. It started in 1970 as a way to keep racism and homophobia out of schools, but is to the point where you can't mention, for example, a blind man overcoming his disability and climbing a mountain. According to these bias guidelines, that kind of statement could offend blind children.
What is the next step after this? Tracking devices implanted under the skin? Big Brother is watching you.
--Nycto
This is going to be installed in municipal vehicles and police cars, not your vehicle. Relax everyone.
Good luck figuring out traffic patterns by putting this in police cars. The police by me are either sitting by the side of the road looking for speeders and HOV lane violators, or they're cutting through traffic in the disabled vehicle lane.
This sounds like a good idea, but i see it being used in all the wrong ways. Cops would no longer have to catch someone speeding, they would just have to link the illegal speed with the vehical and send the ticket in the mail. Any government could track were certain citizens are (or rather their cars) at any time. I wonder how long it would take someone to put linux on one of these systems. It would be a pretty tight mobile computer.
"The computer says what? Why, that must be wrong. We were just eating at that Denny's next door. I don't know, sir. If you can't prove it either way, I guess you'll just have to trust us."
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
Might as well put that chip inside my brain so it can sense my stress/roadrage levels and turn my car off if I get too violent.
An Indian-American Hindu committed to non-violent thought/speech/action alarmed by the global explosion of radical Islam
FORD = Found on road dead
FORD = Fucker only runs downhill
FORD backwards is an acronym for "Driver Returns On Foot."
FORD = First On Recall Day
FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily
FORD = For Oversized Rednick Dicks
Ford Acronyms
Yes, your issues are true for personal vehicles. However, in the case of fleet vehicles, where the person doesn't get a choice if it's on or not, I could see it being quite helpful.
In fact, I know a few people whose work vehicles will report to their employer when they showed up at the work site (construction related field). This is just an extension to that.
You're automatically assuming that 'consumer' means 'private citizen' which it may not be. I can see significant demand for this for fleet vehicles, especially if it can be correlated to GPS or some of the other monitor systems that already exist.
Public works vehicles would be a prime candidate for this, as it could give indicators where potholes are, or snow problems, or flooded roads. Radio and TV stations might put it in their vehicles, so they could improve their traffic reporting.
It might move to private vehicles, if there were incentives. Maybe discounts on your insurance, or taxes, or the like, but I don't see people just jumping out and wanting it on their own, for the very reasons you stated.
And it's entirely possible that they'll be put in without people knowing about it, such as the black boxes that record airbag data, or forced to be in there by law [all vehicles in the state of must have them], similar to emissions controls, which help the general population, but not the individual user.
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
Actually, it was Tele Aid, Mercedes's version of the system. And the practice has been suspended, but not for privacy reasons.
HIV Crosses Species Barrier... into Muppets
Unfortunately, people won't rebel because they won't take it upon themselves to build cars without said devices, and that's even assuming that the Law allows cars to be manufactured without all that stuff anyway. What will happen is that people will just say, "That sucks! Oh, well, I want a car...."
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
Rental car agencies are already exploiting GPS tracking devices for uncapped profit (eg. bouncing a $250 rental fee to $3.4k). I wonder how long it will take them to exploit this one so they can charge penalties for ... oh ... not using your blinker, leaving the dome light on when the car is off, and perhaps even for not flipping down the sun visors. Y'know, 5 minutes of harsh sunlight can really wreak havoc on unprotected automotive uphostlery, and possibly increase the maintenance cost for a vehicle by a full $0.000000005!!
Blackboxes which provide data about what might have happened already exist for cars. There have been numerous court cases regarding the privacy issues surrounding it's uses, mostly because drivers have no clue they exist in their cars. Apparently Ford and GM have been doing this since the 90s. So Ford is probably just taking their technology a step further.
"A market is never saturated with a good product, but it is very quickly saturated with a bad one."
--Henry Ford
Rental car companies use GPS to clock your speed or location and fine you for speeding or leaving the geographic area covered by your contract. Red light cameras dole out tickets (usually through some government contracting company). EZ-Pass toll systems can help track the movements of drivers. The microprocessors in your car can provide data to help determine fault in auto accidents. I won't even get into OnStar. Sheesh, next thing you know, Anheuser-Busch will be tracking your drinking habits - oh wait. Imaging linking those databases.
With a simple identification code in each Ford car, the freedom of movement in the U.S. could become very expensive. To me, it's almost more frightening that so many of these functions (and this data) is in private hands than if it were the government getting it itself.
There will be (actually already is) a flurry of legal wrangling to determine: (1) how the private companies can use this (i.e., when they can disclose or sell it); and (2) under what circumstances the government can get to it and use it.
That which causes outrage today is commonplace tomorrow...
Technology is like fire... if you don't keep a careful eye on it and keep it under control, what was your servant becomes your master...
That's all I'm saying... make sure such useful technology doesn't become abused... It's a duty to those who wish to remain free.
"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
It's a bunch of BS to get people to let this big brother in the car.. then ZAM it'll start to be abused.. Just like OnStar was. OnStar gor saved via a tecnical detail, but if they had multiple audio out channels, it's still be abused today.
The fact is, it's US thats the problem. We employ a greedy and not cooperative strategy on the roads. They did research around here, and they found that all the highways were completely cpable of handling the volume of traffic at rush hour. It's out driving that creates backups.
And don't get me started about RUBBERNECKERS! ARH.
People here are some tips:
1) Don't rummberneck, mangled metal is fun, but it's none of your business.
2) Don't tail gate, leave good room. Tailgating makes you slam on your brakes, so the guy behind you needs to slam arder, and so on, until people are locking up anc causing more accidents.
3) When in a backup let the gap be made. Don't floor it to the next guys bumper then brake hard 1) it wastes gas 2) you repeat #2. I've seen "averagers" - peopel who average the flow out create a huge difference. And I think we all rather me slow and steady rather than stop-and -go. If you are a stop and go person: remember: 1) all that gas used to get up to speed gets wasted when you put on your brakes, 2) you waste more brakes killing the effect of overusing gas 3) you create more changes in speed which is more changes for a rear-end collision by another unattentive driver. We handle things if they are steady.
4) Get over early. You having to slow down your lane so you can get over in a hurry, slows down your lane and causes others to change lanes.
5) minimize lane changes. Each one is a time when you a leagally vulderable. When you change lanes, right of way is with the person who is already there. And we all know about 2 people, one moveing left, the other right, that don't see each other.
That shoudl take care of 90% of the problems on the road.
Thank you.
Slashdot's rate-of-post filter: Preventing you from posting too many great ideas at once.
Let me see, the same company that is currently producing a ~400 hp SVT Cobra is going to want a report on how fast I'm going? Why, I'm going the legal speed limit! Of course! Seriously, I intend on picking up my Cobra and driving directly to an auto parts store to get the mod chip that transmits a nice fake signal to Ford.
SVT COBRA VIN#12345
WINDSHIELD WIPERS:OFF
HEADLIGHTS: OFF
SPEED: YOUR MOTHER
stuff |
For Ford SUVs, it will also report if the vehicle is upside-down.
There is no point for every driver on the highway to have this system in their car. Afterall, the car next to you is not likely to report anything different than what you're reporting at any given time.
However, think of this usage. A local radio and TV station operation offers to pay to have this system installed in 2000 volunteer's cars, and those people are paid $250 or so a year to participate. Suddenly, this station will have a a very informative realtime traffic system, because as odds are one of their spotters will be delayed by any rainstorm or lane closure. What's more, the spotters don't have to do anything active to report that they've been stopped or slowed, since the system phones in their reports for them.
There's no need for everybody's privacy to be violated, because this doesn't need a census, just a sample. If a few people are willing to give up some privacy, the whole public can benefit from the data collected in the form of better traffic advisories.
I really don't see how this will have any impact on traffic. You may know everything about the status of the vehicles but how is that going to lessen the load of traffic? Seems to me it would be just as effective to install sensors along the roadway that monitor traffic flow and suggest re-routes as needed. Really this is just another way for big brother to watch us.
Oh, BTW, for all you Ford haters out there, my '82 Ford Bronco is still running after 215 thousand miles. Never had any major work other than replacing the oil pump. Environmentalists procede with the flaming on my gas guzzling beast, but I do live in New Mexico and take my car off road all the time, I don't own an SUV just because they're cool or big.
-- Is it a right to remain ignorant? -- Calvin
Embed the sensors in the roads..
I use this every day to choose which way to go home (red on Decarie (the 15) is particularly bad).
S
I can speak with some authority here; as my parents both work in insurance.
Driving history is considered, but mostly in as "Clean record since last at-fault accident".
Speeding tickets, etc, usually aren't passed on to the insurance company, unless they hit your driving record. That is; you're actually pulled over, and are given demerits to your license. Age is also a large factor; the younger you are, the more you pay. In Alberta at least, there's a price drop at 21, as well as 25.
Marital status is taken into account; married people pay less.
Gender is taken into account; girls pay less.
Here's the question, though...
Would you drive a car with the intent of being monitored if it meant that your insurance company would give significant fee breaks or if the government gave rebates of some form?
If you start to put money into the equation, things start to seem more interesting than threatening, n'est-ce pas?
After they installed cockpit monitoring devices in all vehicles, the insurance companies analyzed the data and found an amazing coincidence. The last words said in 80% of all pickup truck accidents were the same: "Hey, hold my beer and watch this!"
Before anyone flames me: I drive an F-150.
"Shredded cabbage and mayo go good together." Cole's Law
Ummm...cop cars are not really the best way to determine traffic conditions, since in the course of a day they are constantly avoiding traffic laws, such as speed, and being able to drive around and thru traffic. Hard breaking in chases, and high speeds travling to the scene of a crime/accident would seriously skew the data.
If you must!
I watched when my Kenworth T600 was in the shop, thay hooked up a system the size of a laptop and had a complete report from speed to RPM's to brake use and pressure. It even showed air pressure to the suspension giving them an idea of how much weight was on each axle. Combined with the qualcomm on board they knew within 3 feet where and what I was doing every 15 min. with the company truck.
I'm told you are what you eat, does that mean I can be you by tomorrow with some A1?
Let me bring you up to date since you left.
Last year, someone headed back into the city during rush hour crashed into one of those billboards on GA 400 southbound, bringing it down and blocking the entire road well into the evening.
I wasn't there, but I hear people who saw it happen could see the display blinking:
Traffic sign down on GA 400 S & Windward. Use alternate route.
You are checking your backups, aren't you?
Ok, monitoring the car can be good or bad. Here's a little story from the real world.
Someone had a very expensive car, the kind of car that cost a fortune to get a insurance for. So the car got a tracking device installed to get a lower insurance. These devices are normally intalled in different places hard to find unless you take the entire car apart and also has their own battery.
One day the police got a call from the company tracking these cars for the insurance company. The car appeared to had been stolen and was going down the freeway. The police got running updates of the location of the car. drove after it down the freeway and ended up "capturing" the thief in a parking lot by blocking the exits with police cars.
The "thief" turned out to be a family member not normally driving the car who had forgotten to disarm the alarm.
The alarm did not make any noise if not disarmed, it just sat there, sending the coordinates from a gps antenna through the cell phone network.
So the owner was happy to see that the alarm indeed worked but less happy about all the attention the Saturday shopping got.
The story said nothing about the price for this mistake.
Sadly, 1984 hung around.
Send your friends messages of love at fuck-you.org
to spoof that system to make it look like I: Change position instantaneously accross the city; Run backwards on a highway; Run red lights; Drive on the sidewalks; Speed at 1000s of km per hour and break the sound barrier in a school zone...
I live in the midwest and they just started putting them up out here.
I've seen them do 3 things:
- Spew current government safety propoganda. "Buckle Up!" "School has started, watch out for students!" (on the highway?!) "Double fines for speeding in road construction zones!"
- As stated above, give worthless traffic information. "Accident 2 miles ahead." This when you're already stuck in bumper to bumper traffic. Or "Accident at xyz intersection", which is the only way to transfer from highway a to highway b and is ALWAYS the one where somebody crashes at 5pm on a Friday.
- Give worthless weather advisories. Lesse, there's an inch of snow on the ground, snow trucks are everywhere and there's a combination of sleet and rain bouncing off your windshield. What's the sign say? "Weather Advisory: Roads may be slick." DUH!
It seems to me that there's a good idea in there SOMEWHERE... but this aint it.
(Oh, and all the signs have cameras in them pointed at both diretions of traffic.)
I'm not saying that it isn't good to be cautious, but just because a technology can be used in a "Big Brother" way doesn't mean it will.
Yes it does, It's only a matter of time before the fed/state/local authorities start to supoena onstar.
As a matter of fact, they already DID subpoena OnStar or one of its clones. And not just to track the vehicle, but to use the phone function to BUG it. This came to light in the news media as a result of a suit by the service provider.
It seems the device is basically a cellphone (without a ringer and with a fixed number to call, and WITH a data connection to the car's computer). Inbound calls are silently accepted (the better to track stolen cars without alerting the thief and to unlock the door for customers who lock the keys in). Of course this makes bugging the occupants trivial.
The emergency signal is sent by transmitting a tone in the upbound voice channel. With a call permanently set up between the car and the FBI's tape recorder, the emergency service the company was being paid for couldn't be provided. (The tone would go to the tape recorder, rather than a call being made to the emergency service proder.)
When the FBI wanted to continue the tap after a month, the company sued to get them to release it.
(The news item carefully didn't mention which OnStar-or-clone company was involved.)
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
They call it a "traffic monitor". But traffic is a higher-level function: traffic is an aggregate of vehicle data.
... invasive implications ....
Really, these things should be called "vehicle monitors". But that phrase conjures up such
-kgj
-kgj
Of course, they conviently ignore the fact that something like this will help people determine the cause of an accident and who was at fault, but the same people who complain about accountability are the same ones who drive 80mph on the shoulder during rush hour, or bob and weave thru traffic, cutting people off just so they can get to work 4 minutes faster.
Manipulate the moderator system! Mod someone as "overrated" today.
Just imagine what can be done with all this trackable info? I mean, haven't we learned anything about government abuse of GPS in the way they're hounding that poor Scott Peterson guy in California by tracking his vehicle to the edge of the San Francisco Bay and...
Oh, wait. Let me rethink this....
Perhaps in a few years there can be a democratic road system that more or less lives off of information provided by cars (anonymously of course). It continuously checks the flow, adjusts lights to match, even offering on-road re-routes ahead of time to avoid large delays. Radio and digital displays are nice, but they aren't quick enough to really help 90% of the rush hour drivers.
Slashdot is proof that Sturgeon's Law applies to mankind.
When I have kids, I'll expect updates on all their cars' data at regular intervals.
So will the stalkers, rapists, sexual predators, and serial killers.
Is this what you REALLY want for, say, your teenage girl?
How about for your teenage boy - the one with the really cute butt?
How about for your cousin, who just bailed out of the abusive marriage and is trying to duck the ex-husband? You know - the one who broke her nose, blackened her eyes about once a week, and wants to continue the practice?
How about the crook who knows your car is worth fifty grand and you just spent ten minutes in a bank parking lot?
Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
Car drivers file a drive plan which works in conjunction with accurate real time traffic monitoring an on board computer that could generate an alternate route and guide the driver by way of on board navigation system: cool. but what happens when all those drives select the same route beucase each onboard system generated it from the same information? The lower volume roads will be jammed too.
However, if they try to put this in my car...it will be disconnected quickly.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
HA!
...that these devices will be uniquely identifiable? All they need for this to work is aggregate data, so they just have to call home and say "hey, my host car just engaged the ABS going 45mph, the road temp is 31 F, etc. I'm at x,y,z." No need to send a serial number.
If it didn't identify itself, reporting such things as speed would be a huge help, since the police could use the data to target enforcement where it's needed. (of course, in Dallas, that's pretty much everywhere, since if you're not going at least 10 over, even the police are passing you)
I have no idea what this would be, but I am sure I'll be having nightmares about it for the next week or so.
"Prepare for the worst - hope for the best."
I think I'll start driving an antique car with a non-computerized breaker point ignition. No on-star, no cell phone.
Please dont label me as a flame-bait paranoid, but I'm a little tired of the whole world being so damn interested in where I am and what I am doing.
All this RFID crap, cell phone tracking, now your car is supposed to tell everyone what it's up to? Geez, aint it time for a little reality check.
Just because technically you _can_ do something, doesnt necessarily make it a good idea.
"Yes, Mr. Thomas, the data pulled from your 2005 Ford Mustang GT indicates that you were going 134 mph when you wrecked last night at 3:27am. Local weather reports show that it was raining, yet your wipers, as well as headlights were out. Our assumption is you were drunk. Claim denied."
The Article is deceiving in saying that we cannot do this now... The devices in the road do a perfectly fine job of gather info like wheather, traffic conditions and even vehicle classes/weights. If everyone actually knew that they are already being tracked and tickets could be given out with cameras and traffic sensors in the roadway now if it wasn't for the privacy issue, they would be even more upset. Ignorance is bliss until that photo and ticket get mailed.
-Cg
Clever or not, I got nothing...