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Thirty-Three States Contributed to the MATRIX
lexbaby writes "The Salt Lake Tribune has an article claiming that at least 33 states have released government and commercial records on residents to the controversial MATRIX (Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange) network instead of the originally claimed 13." Don't worry, there's plenty of RAM for all 50 and the territories too.
Mouth shut, eyes forward, do what you're told. Don't question authority.
Smile for the cameras. They're everywhere and they're watching you.
Secure all zippers, buttons, tie clips, etc. Wardrobe Malfunction isn't funny anymore, it's subversive.
Turn in your neighbors on the slightest hint they're trouble makers. You won't get a pair a blue jeans, but you help keep your country safe.
Pokemon: Catch 'em all, otherwise you never know where they are or what they are up to.
Cover your mouth when coughing or sneezing to avoid Germ Warfare Terrorist label.
Vote for the most patriotic sounding politician, no matter what their platform.
Remember, we're all in this together.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Welcome to The Matrix.
I was wondering why all the stories aimed at getting the tinfoil hat crowd in a frenzy where popping up, then I noticed Michael was at the helm
there are numbers but not a list!
we need a list! if my state was involved I would like to know!
Why don't you embrace your slashbotness instead of living in a dreamworld?
I can't believe they actually had the balls to call it that.
With the Mormons keeping track of their ancestors and all, do you suppose that some (most?) of the info that Utah willingly provided was from those vast genealogical records?
I wonder if/how that would help the MATRIX project. Hmm.
Once this MATRIX is proven to be useless, either by failing to catch terrorists or not predicting the next attack, will the government kill the program? Of course not.
Fear has always been a great method to let government erode privacy and rights.
Trolling is a art,
I don't see a list of which 33 states we're talking about. Does that list exist somewhere?
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
I've known that this was coming but they didn't announce it on their website. Is the MATRIX online already? I thought they were still doing recon..
Don't worry, there's plenty of RAM for all 50 and the territories too.
Do you actually have some good, solid evidence that the ram is being used for this? Aside from an article at Techworld that thinks it might be. At least try to show a tiny little bit of responsibility in the statements that you make.
slashdot, news for crazed liberal socialist zealots
Aksearch.net is a db I compiled from a few various databases the State of Alaska makes available. I have address and phone numbers for approx 98% of residents of Alaska. I also have DOB for about 5%, and voting records of all eligable voters. All available for free. Scarry huh?
I was recently stopped by the cops (while walking) here in FL. I was stopped for crossing the street with an open container of beer on the way to my neighbor's house.
Anyway, what was spooky about it is they were able to immediately look up my record--I got busted smoking pot at a concert about 10 years ago in NJ--literally a thousand miles away. Even though this was expunged from my record nearly ten years ago, they found out about it from their cars, without me every mentioning that I ever lived anywhere other than FL. That sucks.
It's very likely that the bombers in Spain, like the hijackers here, had valid drivers licenses and other papers and good identification.
After all, they don't need to hide until AFTER they do it. Then they are dead.
This is like a stupid school teacher to tries to re-arrange seating order from alphabetical to something else when her classroom becomes disruptive. All she knows how to do is put things in order so that's what she does, when in reality the situation calls for some strong spankings and maybe kicking some students out.
I don't know if it's on the web, but there was a wonderful series of Pogo (by Walt Kelly) strips from the early 70's where Spiro Agnew (then Vice President) was portrayed (appropriately) as a hyena in military uniform. For the good of the country all suspect people were rounded up and jailed. The end result was everyone in jail except him, including his cronies and assistants.
Sounds like history repeating itself.
Spiro Agnew later resigned due to mounting pressure over scandal for tax evasion and bribe taking.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
do you see any tigers? it must work
I love this one from their FAQ: http://www.matrix-at.org/faq.htm
If you can't access the data, how can you find the source!?
CAN THE PUBLIC REVIEW THE MATRIX PILOT PROJECT DATA CONCERNING THEMSELVES?
No. Members of the public cannot access individually identifiable information on themselves or others. Persons wishing to access data pertaining to themselves should communicate directly with the agency or entity that is the source of the data in question. For example, each participating state must provide a means for an individual to review and challenge the accuracy and completeness of his or her criminal history record, as authorized and required by 28 Code of Federal Regulations, Section 20.21(g).
and the movie still sucked at the end?
I am guessing Mr. Ashcroft pay this out of his own pcoket. So this tax payer's money.
Is this going to make you any safer? Doubtful.
Is this going to make you poorer? Yes, Indirectly.
Is this going to make Seisinit richer? Sure.
Is this going to violate your privacy? Most Definitely.
So you are basically paying Seisinit to take away your privacy. This is a bit like this story here. But that one is a bit more believable.
Nothing to see here
....developped and running al the way till the late 80's, but a dude called Gorbachov kinda screwed it all up....(it's still in use only in outdated machines in China.)
1. No sig. 2. ???? 3. Profit!!!
To quote the article...
Leavitt teamed up with Florida Gov. Jeb Bush -- President Bush's brother -- to pitch MATRIX to other states. The two briefed other governors on the project during a conference call referred to in Feb. 6, 2003, MATRIX board minutes.
A member of the Bush family involved in something deceptive that will further erode our constitutional rights? NEVER, I say, NEVER!
Head over to this site:
http://www.brbpub.com/pubrecsites.asp
Free public records for all states and nationwide databases.
I know for sure that Colorado and Wisconsin have criminal court proceedings online, effectivly putting your police record out there for anyone who knows your name or even parts of your name.
It did come in handy for me lately, as I found out someone gave my name when they were arrested. Had this resource not be available, I may have never known. Now I have to get it off, and they don't make it easy.
-ft
Darpa with a new Internet for more control, more MATRIX states. I am starting to get scared. I am Canadian and the only hope we have is that the US has freedom of expression that we can emulate. Please rise up and fight this demon that justifies itself with the "think of the children argument". The end does not justify the means.
Stay tuned for new sig...
Enough with the MATRIX puns, look at the issue seriously. I live in France and had never heard of this project before, but it sure looks scary, or at least, the government not saying everything about it is.
Can be read in the article: "We don't want our information floating out there when we don't know what's on the database or who has access to it," said Sen. Ron Allen, D-Stansbury Park. It seems the people actually involved in this do not know very much what information will be withheld, let alone the people whose information is withheld. I mean, how can you be sure what you're being told is the truth when you see that the people involved with the project do not know that much about it themselves?
The representatives say that the MATRIX is just a way of accessing individuals' information faster, but I don't really see how this could help them to predict where and when the next terrorist attack will be -- it will only really help them once the acts are actually done, I should think.
I'm not stating that the government are surely up to something dodgy here, and after all, perhaps they might not be lying when they say that this will allow them to get hold of currently available information faster. But I just cannot read this without an ounce of doubt that a few privacy breaches might help them to fulfill their task.
"Really, I'm not out to destroy Microsoft. That will just be a completely unintentional side effect" -- Linus Torval
When he left for EPA his Lt. Gov, Walker took over and found out about this MATRIX stuff and told the public. I hope Walker or Matheson gets elected next time around.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Does UK plan to contribute to the MATRIX?Our reichfuhrer David Blunkett has always favoured keep all citizens on Surviellance methods.
/contribute to this?
On a more Topical note:do the Countries which are closely allied with US such as UK,Canada and Australia plan to join
Wanted : A Signature.
If Slashdot editors want to make paranoid claims and assert they are true, they damn well better be able to back them up with FACTS! It's not up to us to prove their wild assertions untrue!
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I love feeling guilty until proven innocent. It gives me a warm, fuzzy and safe feeling and makes me able to sleep at night. And remember kids, just as long as everyone videotapes everybody, everything will be alright.
TARKIN:
The regional governors now have direct control over territories. Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this MATRIX.
CT
it is only a matter of time before this is used to round up non terrorist criminals to make some politician look good. that is essentialy what this kind of information is best for. no terrorist is going to show up with the kind of info they are putting together. there is no way some this will not be used against the peaceful criminals in this country. its a damn shame.
this is not a Sig.
So are they saying they'll use it to only monitor guilty citizens? Guilty of what? Isn't everybody innocent until proven guilty? If they were already proven guilty, why monitor them?
Quid festinatio swallonis est aetherfuga inonusti?
Africus aut Europaeus?
As it turns out, I actually know the person who prototyped the MATRIX system very well -- it's my wife's aunt.
On one hand, this scares me a bit, because I know her work, and she's good -- which means that this system probably functions as intended.
On the other hand, I have the assurances that a) she's a decent person, who generally supports civil liberties and frowns on abuse of government powers; and b) she's explicitly said that there were several requests that the government made during the initial design phase that she explicitly ruled out -- she told the government they were going too far, and that she wouldn't be a part of what they wanted. They actually backed off, too from what I've been told.
Of course, I realize that I have very little credibility here as just another Slashdot poster...but for anyone inclined to believe, the good news is that *some* restraint was made in designing the MATRIX system.
How To Get Humans To Mars
Why do you say that? Maybe you'd rather have it with a slash through it?
I don't care that much fo John Kerry, but if you want any hope at all of this type of thing going away, you'd better get out and vote for him in November.
Remember the Florida election of 2000 when a private database company scrubbed thousands of eligible voters from the rolls? Well now one of the co-founders of Database Technologies is back in the headlines -- he's working with law enforcement agents in Florida to create what may soon expand into a national surveillance system. We talk with privacy expert Wayne Madsen, investigative reporter Greg Palast and a top intelligence official from the state of Florida.
s .h tm
8 /0 7/1427223
When is Joe Six pack going to wake up to the fact that in secret the government has conspired to create a dossier on every citzen in this country and this is who they hired to do it:
Hank Asher then creates the MATRIX as a state level network version of the TIA office. Essentially continuing the TIA office, but freeing it from congressional oversight and federal whistleblower protections. He admits smuggling millions of dollars worth of cocaine in 1981 and 1982. Coincidentally at the time when the Iran-Contra dealings were in full swing.
But this is only speculation. Could there be more of a link between illegal dealings between Hank Asher and the republican party? OF COURSE THERE IS!
In 1992, Asher founded Database Technologies, which later merged with ChoicePoint. In 1999, he founded Seisint Inc. by merging two companies. He is still on Seisint's board of directors, and continues to play an active role in the company.During the 2000 presidential election ChoicePoint, gave Florida officials a list with the names of 8,000 ex-felons to "scrub" from their list of voters. But it turns out none on the list were guilty of felonies, only misdemeanors.
So there we have it. We went from having a domestic spying agency run by a five time felon to having the same domestic spying program sans congressional oversight and whistle blower protections run by a convicted drug smuggler who has proven that he'll break the law to further the republican agenda.
http://www.oldamericancentury.org/oh_republican
A Florida law enforcement data-sharing network is about to go national. In the name of counterterrorism, the Departments of Justice and Homeland Security are pouring millions of dollars into the system to expand it to local law enforcement agencies across the nation. It's called Matrix, which stands for Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange. According to the Washington Post, the computer network accesses information that has always been available to investigators but brings it together and enables police to access it with extraordinary speed. Civil liberties and privacy groups say the Matrix system dramatically increases the ability of local police to snoop on individuals.
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=03/0
The Florida company that built the database was founded by the man behind ChoicePoint and Database Technologies. The companies administered the contract that stripped thousands of African Americans from the Florida voter roles before the 2000 election.
Although narrower in scope than John Poindexter's controversial Terrorist Global Information Awareness program, Matrix may serve a similar purpose because it provides unprecedented access to US residents regardless of their criminal background. And states are eager to participate in the new program. On Tuesday, the Department of Homeland Security announced plans to launch a pilot program in state law enforcement data-sharing among Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania and New York.
The Mormons comb records and databases of people already dead. So thinking that they handed over some uber list of American citizens to the government is flawwed thinking.
Mouth shut, eyes forward, do what you're told. Don't question the editors.
Smile for the cameras. They're everywhere and they're watching you.
Secure all servers, workstations, toasters, etc. with Linux. Windows isn't funny anymore, it's subversive.
Mod down your fellow posters on the slightest hint they're windows users. You won't get a free subscription, but you help keep Slashdot safe.
Suspicious links: Don't click 'em, otherwise you might know where they go or what horrors they may contain.
Twiddle your thumbs when considering posting evidence that Windows is OK to avoid Astroturfer label.
Vote for the most paranoid, irrational sounding politician, but only if their platform is Open Sourced.
"Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
I was reading James Mitchner's Iberia up to a couple months ago. It's terribly ironic considering what happened in Spain on the 11th and the political climate in the USA. The book was written, IIRC, in the late 60's and one spaniard told Mitchner, refering to the harsh governance of Franco, that the spaniards need a firm hand because (pardon if quote is not exact) "We're such bastards to govern."
I consider this phrase frequently when reading about autocratic or strong central governments and people apparently happy to be lead thusly. It's worrying.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
I'm sure this has been said already, but who in their right mind would choose to call this thing MATRIX and then not expect people to get upset about it leading to some form of totalitarianism. I mean didn't any of them see the movie? This has got to be one of the stupidest marketing mistakes of all time.
C'mon, tell us how you really feel.
Steve's Computer Service, Hobbs, NM
here
And remember, we are stll the people. It is not late to stop these things.
Article Text here
New York and Wisconsin Opt Out of Anti-Crime Database
............
MARK JOHNSON
Associated Press
ALBANY, N.Y. (AP) -- New York and Wisconsin have joined the list of states that have pulled out of an anti-crime database program that civil libertarians say endangers citizens' privacy rights.
Just five states now remain involved in Matrix out of more than a dozen that had signed up to share criminal, prison and vehicle information with one another and cross-reference the data with privately held databases.
Questions over federal funding and the waning potential for benefit to law enforcement ultimately prompted New York's withdrawal, said Lynn Rasic, a spokeswoman for the New York State Office of Public Security.
In a letter earlier this week, New York State Police Lt. Col. Steven Cumoletti noted that as more states withdraw, Matrix's usefulness diminishes.
The administrator of the Wisconsin Division of Criminal Investigation, meanwhile, cited cost, privacy and potential abuses of such a large database.
"When you added it all up, there were more negatives than positives,'' said the administrator, Jim Warren. He said the state signed up for Matrix about a month ago, but withdrew this week without having put any money into it or trained anyone.
Known formally as Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange, Matrix links government records with up to 20 billion records in databases held by Seisint Inc., a private company based in Boca Raton, Fla.
The Seisint records include details on property, boats and Internet domain names that people own, their address history, utility connections, bankruptcies, liens and business filings, according to an August report by the Georgia state Office of Homeland Security.
Officials with Seisint and the U.S. Department of Justice did not immediately return calls seeking comment.
The American Civil Liberties Union has complained that Matrix could be used by state and federal investigators to compile dossiers on people who have never been suspected of a crime. Seisint officials have said safeguards are built into the system to prevent such abuses.
"We're pleased New York has finally seen the light and opted out of this data-mining program that would allow the government to troll billions of private, personal records for information they have no business getting,'' said Donna Lieberman, director of the New York Civil Liberties Union.
New York started questioning Matrix when several other states dropped out because of privacy or cost concerns, Rasic said. Alabama, California, Colorado, Georgia, Louisiana, Kentucky, Oregon, South Carolina, Texas, Utah and West Virginia have all left or declined to join after actively considering it.
"It was going to end up costing a lot for something we already had,'' Tela Mange, Texas Department of Public Safety spokeswoman, said Thursday.
Matrix, short for the Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange, began in 2002 in Florida. Connecticut, Michigan, Ohio and Pennsylvania also remain participants in the program, which was helped by $12 million in initial funding from the federal government.
Julie Norris, spokeswoman for Ohio Attorney General Jim Petro, said the state plans to stick with Matrix, considering it "a powerful investigation tool'' that uses information already available through public records.
"It allows for an intelligent search that is quick, fast and efficient,'' she said.
The Michigan State Police use Matrix on a limited basis and continue to support it, said spokeswoman Shanon Akans.
------------------
I swear, whenever I read about posts that infringe on privacy in this forum, all the dangerous 1984 references sound like more whining and justification based on more fear, uncertainty, and doubt. I've ceased to take any of it seriously.
-Rob
Marriage doesn't have to suck!
This is true because, as Authority Figures, our exalted leaders and police officials can be trusted completely to act diligently and with only the public interest in mind. Abuses of power for political or personal reasons are quite impossible, now and evermore. Liberals foolishly fail to understand this simple fact that every Good Dog knows.
The really cool thing about this is that they'll always be able to round up a good number of plausible suspects for anything that might happen, without all the hassle and expense of identifying the actual perpetrator or - what's worse - having to actually prove guilt. That way Ashcroft et.al. get to look like heroes whether any real justice is done or not. We the People insist on no more than that somebody be apprehended. I'd like to have a job like that. I could say, "Lookee here, Mr. Boss-Man, sir. I wrote you a hunnert lines o' code," and Mr. Boss-Man wouldn't even care if it compiled, much less did anything useful.
I dunno about you, but I didn't enjoy the Spain incident.
You're taking a big leap of faith here if you're suggesting that the liberty/safety trade-off is real. Under Hitler, Stalin and Mao, nobody was safe. Don't expect any better here if we hand absolute power to Bush and his minions (or anyone else, for that matter).
What a great time not to be an american...
Oh poor naive little troll.
The democratic method of holding elections by casting ballots is one of the oldest methods of decision making known to man since the time when a bunch of BC's sat around a fire and decided which direction to travel tomorrow on their quest for tires.
It's only logical that METHODS TO RIG THE VOTING system have existed just as long.
Cripes...
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Your sig should be: Cogito me cogitare, ergo cogito me esse. (At least I think. Wouldn't I feel silly if I turned out to be wrong?)
People better be concerned about this. The general populace does not know what's contained in the database, only that it has some kind of information on just about everybody. Unlike a credit report, a citizen cannot access it, view it, dispute it, or make corrections to it. Who knows if the information within is even correct? Even though it's claimed that it will only be used for 'noble' purposes, it's still possible for someone authorized to abuse it or use it for 'sneaky' reasons. Insert your own speculative scenario here. From what I can tell, there's no checks and balances and that is something be to concerned about.
-- After all is said and done, more is said than done.
I fear a state of mind that makes living freely and happily quite cumbersome. I myself will side with the hundreds of thousands of Americans that have died protecting these rights and will accept a certain level of uncertainty pertaining to "terrorists", thank you very much...
In other words, "Live free or die". For those that may want to reconstruct this sentiment to form something like "you will die OR live free", remember what that quote means. It means, "I would rather die than to NOT live free". And I would agree. You see, I am an American, and I understand what freedom means, and therefore when I see it being eroded for unseemly ends I must, in a working democracy that is, rise up and fight. It is my duty as an American, and as a patriot.
Vote these bastards out of office... our freedom depends on it...
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
NJ has little concern over laws. After all, the State Supreme Court replaced Torricelli on the ballot with Lautenberg, even though there was no legal grounds for such a decision. Paying them would probably make them treat you nice, though.
$30 Off All Plans: Use code TRIPLESAWBUCK
I don't know what's more sad: That quote, or the fact that someone quoted it.
It goes from God, to Jerry, to me.
Well at last the American public is beginning to wake up and smell the shit of a police state in the air!!! Whether or not they've allowed it to go on for too long and it is too late to reverse things (after all - anyone can say that it is destroyed and just tuck it under another layer of secrecy!!).
Did the Americans think that the Total Information Awareness program was going to go away? Look at the discredited and felonous individual assigned to chair it all up!!! What about the Patriot Acts?? Did the Americans really think that was going to be in the best interests of "combatting" terrorism? After 9/11, it was heresy to say to an American that this might be a call to re-examine the US's foreign policy. Noam Chomsky has been an articulate and intelligent critic of the US's foreign (and increasingly domestic) policy for a good many years. What about Ralph Nader - he has shown himself to be one of the very few people in the political arena who has shown any integrity and the balls to stand up to major corporations AND be proven right and ultimately supported by the various legislature on emissions and vehicle safety!!!
The WTC and Pentagon gets bombed (although, let's face it - there is a huge amount of controversy arising about all of that as well - check out From the Wilderness for example http://www.fromthewilderness.com/ for some rather disturbing articles and connections being made) and the American public goes into a passive lead-me-by-the-hand stupor. The Americans got ass-fucked when they weren't looking and because of the primacy of the US in real politik, the rest of the world is going to slowly but surely get ass-fucked too. Yes the good old slut of a Blair government is also cowtowing to the Bush administration and apparently the UK has more CCTV cameras than any other country in the world. The UK is so paranoid about its own people it is driving a wedge between the public and itself just as the US is doing too. Guys - please - you must wake up here!!! Americans please look at what your country is doing - check out Vernon Coleman http:\\www.vernoncoleman.com - we do have to act, act together across the oceans and act sooner rather than later.
Flame me if you must - but the writing is on the wall for the emergence of the kinds of Hollywood-style futures that no-one would ever want to live in. A police state, repressive, using great reams of code to control every person's movements and associations, to drip-feed a diet of drugs (TV, music, entertainment, games, movies, celebrity-suck, and happy distractions) while it continues full steam with its ECHELON system (http://mediafilter.org/caq/echelon/ ), which when confronted by the French the US government backed away and attempted to deny its very existence and has only released very broad details of its operation.
"It's not a war on drugs - it's a war on personal freedoms. Remember that!" ~ Bill Hicks
The MATRIX system reeks of evil, just take a look at the URL:6 9.asp
http://www.sltrib.com/2004/Mar/03112004/utah/1466
666!
He's coming... he's coming. (insert random conspiracy theory about God, terrorists, aliens, UFO's, Roswell and JFK here)
Watch it get elegantly lifted out of her hands to someone more 'cooperative' quite soon. Or watch the restrictions get casually ignored. Or 'coordinated' with another branch. Information is power, and the government loves power.
That's why they're playing every dirty trick in the book, and most rejected in editing to become "the most powerful man on earth" - US president. Which is the head of the power hungry leading other power hungry.
Already most of the rest of the world, foes and allies alike think Americans are arrogant. Yet somehow there's this incredible belief that there's no way a small subset of Americans, a "power elite" would be arrogant not only to other nations, but to the common American. That they should rule in their place.
Personally, I think the US could actually fall for the ultimate scam - I think the country could be run by a small junta, and still have the people believe they're in control. That has got to be the ultimate dictatorship, noone to rebel against, no need to oppress, because there is no opposition only sheep thinking they herd themselves.
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
For all the US citizens reading this - probably the majority of readers - why do you continue to live where you do? Doesn't this kind of information make you angry, or untrested? And have you asked yourselves, "is it worth staying where I am, without the freedoms that I once had, because I am paid well?"
Hundred years ago, when the overlords continued to distrust the citizens, and impose their draconian rule, the people rose up and overthrown the ruling class.
There are other places where a better set of freedoms exist, perhaps at the expense of a lower standard of living. But isn't that freedom worth it?
Doing the Right Thing should not be preempted by making a buck.
Freemason Grand Master: ...and we will call it Multistate Anti-Terrorism Information Exchange!
Illuminatus Rex: Hm.. Mu.. Ant.. Te... Matie? MATIE? Didn't we decide to keep the Aussie division out this time?
Freemason Grand Master: No, no, they are not in. Purely a coincidence.
Paul W.: Well, it sounds a bit... dull.
Illuminatus Rex: I agree. MATIE just will not work. Think of USA PATRIOT - Uniting and Strengthening - now that is a classic. Even TIA is better, even thought it is just a TLA. How are we going to keep people on their toes with MATIE? People should think of strength and cunning, not Foster's and dingos. We are not playing shadow government here!
Alan G.: What if we change a few letters... uhm.. MATRIX?
Illuminatus Rex: Eeexcellent.
I shall go and tell the indestructible man that someone plans to murder him.
Maxi points out the obvious flaw and the reply is "Oh, these nice innocent politicians would never rig an election! Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go vote between one psycho who will take away our rights, another psycho who will take away our rights, and another psycho who will take away our rights. The solution is so obvious!"
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
Has anyone made the conection between this and the recent push to copywrite data bases? Once the government has all this information, they could copywrite it (it that law passes) then all you buisiness really beloong to us.
I think there is more to play here too. Not only are they compiling the bigest way to look at abstract data out of context (reasons for going to war in iraq) they are also making this information vulnerable for attack. But what hapens when they are considered to be replicating someone elses database? Does the government all the suuden need to pay royalties or will companies need to pay the government.
This might really be a clever scheeme to extract fee's from industry more than it is for security. By all means i think it is a problem either way. There shouldn't be any information stored like that. It could also lead to post facto laws being interpreted.
Lets say the political agenda is to make guns ileagle. Well with the second ammendment it will be a hard fought battle to succeed in that. But now what if the data shows that most everyone that purchased a firearm since the brady bill required the instant checks, also do some other common activity/thing. We can outlaw that activity then arrest and convict all of the gun owners of some fellony making it ileagle for them to own firearms again. This would have the same effect as making guns ileagle but, not by actually passing a law that might be challenge by a constitutional amendment.
Now lets asuume it is something else that not politicaly corect with some group. SUVs, fast food, religion? can the list go on?
I did vote. However, one properly cast vote in a sea of random votes isn't going to send any reasonable message. It's like posting on USENET. The signal to noise ratio is far too low.
This is how the voting system is rigged. The vast majority of people have no concept of the real issues, they have no idea of the actual role of government, and they tend to vote for soap-box issues or the candidate whose party affiliation feeds their personal bias. This ensures that the vast majority of votes are cast randomly at best or, as can be proven by the predictable success and failure of Hollywood movies, cast in the direction that the major media favors.
And no. It's not rigged by Republicans. Must I explain a "Dog and Pony Show"? There are no real rebulicans or democrats.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Can someone tell me who saw the Matrix movies and said, "Hay, that's a good idea!"
BenCurry.net
Thanks for clearing that up. Now please upload your transcript to your Slashdot journal, where we can keep an eye on you. For your own safety and protection.
--
make install -not war
I love the America that you represent. Currently we are a minority in our own country. I hope the pendulum does swing back soon, because moving to europe is gonna be a pain. ;-)
h p and know that some of us are awake and give a sh*t.
Please read this: http://holophrastic.com/javascopes/september_02.p
The House Between - Original Sci-Fi Series
"CPTDP"? Nobody'd fund that.
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make install -not war
alright, I'm sorry here, but listen up all you folks who support 3rd party candidates, there are differences between republicans and democrats. I agree that the issue of personal privacy is not often one of them, but to say that there are no differences between republicans and democrats is just naive. If republicans ran the country, we would have no unemployment benefits, no abortion, a military that is twice the size it is, no state or federal funding of public schools, no welfare, capital punishment without a lengthy appeals process, no affirmative action, a debt that is 3 times at large (because republicans don't like taxing, just spending) etc. etc. I'm sure some of you agree or disagree over whether we should have these things in the first place, but to say that the republicans overall don't favor and reject a different set of goverment actions from what the democrats favor and reject is just naive. You may feel neither party favors the ideas you agree with, but that's a different issue.
I think the problem most people have is that they just don't like democracy. It has nothing to do with the intelligence of other voters, people just don't like the idea that another person could disagree with their view points. Most people are disatisfied with the government because they want to see their agenda adopted... and guess what, it never will be adopted. That's the nature of compromise in a democratic system. The reasoning is that it's better to always get some of what you want than to risk getting none of what you want. Go ahead complain because that is the only way you can get some of what you want, but don't be so arrogant as to assume that just because people have a different opinion then you that they are just mindless idiots who do whatever Fox news or NBC or tells them to.
"Would you be saying the same thing if a Democrat was in office?"
You say that as though Republicans are any different from Democrats. At this point, pubbies are pretty much liberal-lite. The few real conservatives left with any say get shouted down by the liberals and neo-con morons of the supposedly right-leaning party.
Why are we spending more than ever? Why are we looking at a $500+ Billion deficeit? Why are we pumping $530 Billion into a socialist medical plan? Why are we sapping the life out of Social(ist) Security while continuing to pretend it's doing something useful? Why are we pushing things like TIA? Why are we pushing for gun control on the same level Reno & Friends were? Why are we letting illegal immigrants stay in this country? Why are we allowing them to work here legally? Why are we contining to push the farce known as the "War on Drugs", which is really just a code for wasteful government spending designed to look pretty while sending the Bill of Rights through a shredder? Why are we locking US citizens up without trials or lawyers? Why are we passing censorship laws? Why are we even talking about adding Constitutional amendments to snatch even more rights from the states?
The list goes on and on, but suffice it to say that Bush and the rest of the Pubbies have shifted left of many Dems - so far so, in fact, that many so-called liberals are getting whiplash from it.
We've actually managed to elect a Republican President who's too liberal for many liberals.
The problem with your logic, in terms of "us" voting these people into office, is that these same people are now utilizing fear in an extreme manner to force citizens into submission. They present programs such as this as the only alternative to sudden, painful, horrifying death. They marginalize civil liberties advocates on BOTH sides of the political spectrum as extremists, and then proceed to convince the public at large that the entire nation will burst into flames unless these types of actions are taken.
That's called treason, in my book.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
It wasn't just the open border policy. What was more important was US government intervention in other countries' affairs. I mean, the CIA don't exactly twiddle their thumbs all day! In one of the Dalai Lama's books, he mentions that the CIA were involved in his run to India, and that was decades ago on the other side of the world in the Himalayan mountains in Tibet, ferchrissakes! Can you imagine what the CIA are like now? What amazes and scares me the most is that today people have stopped demanding to know why and just accept the fact that it happened because those "middle easterners are evil terrorists". But WHY? WHAT ARE THEY DYING FOR? All I ever hear is that "those godless savages and fundamentalists hate freedom, that's all". C'mon people, keep questioning!!! 3000 people dead. What is going on behind our backs?
I would also assert that this "if you don't like it, leave" mentality is unAmerican. The proper attitude should be "if you don't like it, vote and change it." Certainly, if there were a mass exodous of citizens from the country, that would change things because there would be not enough workforce to keep the infrastructure running. However, short of that mass exodous, leaving the country will not change anything. Voting, however, has changed much.
For all those people who love to say "if you don't like it here, leave," I'm considering turning them in to homeland security as terrorists because they are trying to undermine the American way. I'm not going to do it, but it's a fun idea.
"I swear I won't break you if you let me take you where the willows never weep" -- Switchblade Symphony
Imagine a succesful hack capable of sending everyone you don't like straight to gautanamo without any legal access or rights for them? Anyone with the skillz, would you mind altering Darl Mcbride's records?
True genius is grasping a situation like a peice of fruit, and peircing it just right so that it drains dry.
Well according to the media, there's nothing wrong with Democrats, its the evil Nazi loving Republicans that are doing everything.
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
You are absolutely right maximillin. The majority of American's could care less about issues. All they want to know is if the next president is cute or not.
This is a test. This is a test of the emergency sig system. This has been only a test.
33/50
27/50
15/50
13/50
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88/200 (about 44 percent)
anyways... matrix is a bad idea, just think about keanu reeves trying to act!
Just remember the rechristened DCS-1000's former name, Carnivore.
The truth about Scientology, Xenu, and you: Operation Clambake
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Most people are disatisfied with the government because they want to see their agenda adopted
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If we ever had a group of politicians who would adhere to the Tenth Amendment this wouldn't be a problem because their agendas would be meaningless. The Tenth Amendment explicitly states that, good idea or not, it's really none of the government's business to be meddling in things like this.
It's there for a good reason. Every good idea leads inevitably to abuses when mandated from above.
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
I'd expect that it was "expunged" from a criminal record, but not a general one. That is to say, an employer looking you up wouldn't find it etc, but if you got charged on a similar charge later the cops could.
Funny how Dems decry the media as the puppets of multi-national conglomerates owned by frat buddies of high-ranking pubblies, while pubbies decry the liberal hippie media as a bunch of commie-loving bastards.
What's even funnier is that Oliver Stone, probably one of the most hated (by right-wingers) directors in Hollywood once made a film about how aweful and terrible the media is. It was called, "Natural Born Killers".
The media doesn't care if you're a Democrat or a Republican. The media doesn't care what your position is. The media doesn't care if you're alive, dead, growing mushrooms out of your eyelids, or bleeding to death in the back of a city cab. What they do care about are the ratings you and your story may bring to them. What the media does care about is reporting the things that will keep them employed and successful.
There's a concept that's lost on most people these days, and it's something that would solve probably 80% of the problems plaguing us at this point: personal responsibility.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
I would change that to be every good idea has the possibility for abuse. since every possible abuse will eventually come to fruition, it is possible to say every good idea has abuses. That doesn't mean you don't continue with the good idea. For instance, I believe in putting people away for life who murder someone (I loathe capital punishment except in the absolute most extreme cases... but that's a whole other discussion). Now, this leaves the possibility for wrong convictions and putting people in jail who don't deserve it. Does that mean we shouldn't punish murderers? of course not, it just means that we should be more careful to guard against the abuses.
The Tenth Amendment explicitly states that, good idea or not, it's really none of the government's business to be meddling in things like this.
I totally disagree. Part of the problem you are discussing is that federalism is a vague concept that is hard to outline. There are too many nooks and crannies within it to be able to always decide whether something is constitutional or not. The tenth ammendment says that all powers not given to the federal government are given to the states... but the elastic cause says that any law which is neccessary and proper to the execution of the enumerated powers of the u.s. legislature is considered an enumurated power itself. Therefore, since it is within the enumerated powers to prevent foreign invasion and rebellion, which terrorism can be considered to be (one or the other that is), by u.s. legislature, then the legislature is also allowed to do everything that is not expressly prohibited by the constitution to protect against terrorism. Privacy laws are an extension of the fourth ammendment (the one that requires search warrants), but it is unclear at best whether this ammendment extends to things you don't actually possess, like your social security number or criminal record. As such, I don't think it can be argued that collection of this information by the federal government can be considered a violation of the 10th ammendment.
That said, I think having the government know so much about its citizens is inherently dangerous. There is only so much you can do to guard against abuses, and in this case those guards may not be enough. But my disagreement with it is not on constitutional grounds.
I can't think of any "first world" country that I can't say the same thing about.
Really? Too liberal?
IMHO, this whole thing is not about ideaology, nor is it about right or left politics. In fact, it's not about politics at all. It's about greed. These greedy bastards are using the tools of politics, fear, removal of civil liberties, and easy access (for a few people) to consolidated information for their own financial gain.
Even when Bush is out of office next year, he will retire a very wealthy man, as well as Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, several Generals and Admirals, and some media "pundits". There is surely enough wealth in this country to be spread amongst the 100 most greedy bastards; the rest of us can go a-beggin'.
We need more than a political solution to this problem. We need to throw these greedy fuckers in Jail and let them be raped like they've been raping the rest of the world for years.
-- End of Rant.
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
My dad is definitely a "right-winger" and was not impressed by this film. Its violence can be a bit off-putting, but not when you understand the reasons for which it was made.
"We need to throw these [[Bush,] Cheney, Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld, several Generals and Admirals, and some media "pundits"] greedy fuckers in Jail and let them be raped like they've been raping the rest of the world for years."
Your 'solution' strikes me as being no better than the acts already perpetrated against this nation by those you've mentioned. A better idea may, in fact, be to put mechanisms into place which would prevent the problems we've seen under Bush/Cheney from happening once more in the future.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
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all powers not given to the federal government are given to the states...
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And the PEOPLE--a very important part which you omitted with "...". The PEOPLE are the most important part of a democracy. There is no "elastic clause" to the Tenth Amendment. It's very plain, very simple, it's not a vague concept and it's not hard to outline. Anything not explicitly granted within the US Constitution goes to the states and the people. There is no weasling around it.
Nowhere in the Constitution is the federal government given the power to create a roster or roll call or database of the citizenry. That is the sort of thing that the founding fathers were trying to escape from merry 'ole England for. If the individual states want to contract to make databases that's fine (if granted within the scope of the states' constitution) but the feds have absolutely no business even acknowledging that such a thing exists.
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I would change that to be every good idea has the possibility for abuse
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When mandated from above it's guaranteed. No top level government is completely free of greedy self-serving politicians. As long as they exist they will exploit any power that is available to them. It's natural law.
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Does that mean we shouldn't punish murderers?
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Blown way out of proportion and way out of context. But, since you mention it, I personally don't feel that the federal government has any place in trying murderers. Let them go round-robin with the locales. It's this sort of redundancy (the existence of both local laws prohibiting murder and federal laws prohibiting murder) that feeds the egomania and abuse of power that's rancidly prevalent in our current system.
Were you aware that the vast majority of federal laws include a preemption clause which seeks to make the federal law more sovereign than any equivalent state or local law? Think of the implications. If we live in a true democracy for the people why would the federal government ever even get into the habit of including preemption clauses?
+++ATHZ 99:5:80
Perhaps I should rephrase my comment in a less emotional manner: Those currently in power in the US are simply criminals and they should be treated as such (prosecuted and given a fair trial). Once they are no longer in a position to cause any more damage, we can then begin the process of cleaning up and preventing future mistakes.
"Teleporting Rodents with D-Cell Battery Displacement" theory -- IgnoramusMaximus (692000)
Just so I'm not complaining without some semblence of constructive commentary, I might like to suggest that the problems we're currently facing would be largely solved and prevented from happening again by stripping down the Federal government like a Corvette left unattended in South-Central LA on a Saturday night.
With the Federal government all but dismantled, the vast majority of the problems we're working through now would be impossible.
There was a very good reason we enumerated a rather short list of powers and responsibilities for our Federal government. For clues as to why it was done in this way, open up a newspaper.
-- "Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else."
#1. Good question.
#2. I agree
#3. Er, I meant this polyarchy.
"The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance - it is the illusion of knowledge." - Daniel Boorstin
Well, of course. It's always expected that someone will say that only the people who have something to hide will be concerned about these measures. The American people will probably readily give up their freedoms for the belief that they will be safer. It's already happening now and I don't expect that to change.
Between the fear-mongering of the U.S. media and Bush's capitalizing on the 9/11 tragedy (which is to be expected under purely political reasoning), there are a lot of people who are scared shitless, or simply indifferent.
To make all laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into execution the foregoing powers, and all other powers vested by this Constitution in the government of the United States, or in any department or officer thereof.
The tenth ammendment basically says that anything not covered by this clause (for instance trade that cannot be construed to be inter-state trade) is for the states to regulate. However, terrorism is clearly covered in the enumerated powers, so therefore the elastic clasuse applies to it, not the 10th ammendment.
Think before you post next time.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing. --Edmund Burke
Mmm..Political stagnation! My favorite. I like it with a bit of ketchup on the side.
Whenever government employees defend such programs, they often use the argument that most of this data is available on the open market anyway.
Is it just me, or does that make it worse and not better?
And when did someone establish a link between convicted sex offenders and terrorists? The truth is, there is a wide range of people who are just using the events of 9/11 to do a secret power grab. And eventually (hopefully by January of 2004), there will be someone in the Presidency who wants to reveal all this crap to show what the hell these people were secretly doing.
For the former Governor of Utah to refuse to even discuss what he authorized with the current governor is so plainly obnoxious, I cannot believe more people are not outraged by it.